1 00:00:15,476 --> 00:00:26,076 Speaker 1: Pushkin. I hope you enjoyed our special episode celebrating the 2 00:00:26,116 --> 00:00:28,996 Speaker 1: International Day of Happiness and the release of the World 3 00:00:28,996 --> 00:00:32,076 Speaker 1: Happiness Report on March twentieth. In case you missed it, 4 00:00:32,356 --> 00:00:35,436 Speaker 1: I asked several of my fellow Pushkin podcast hosts to 5 00:00:35,476 --> 00:00:37,876 Speaker 1: pretend that they were an author on this year's World 6 00:00:37,916 --> 00:00:41,116 Speaker 1: Happiness Report. I asked each of them, what chapter would 7 00:00:41,156 --> 00:00:43,796 Speaker 1: you write? Okay, well, this one's really easy for me. 8 00:00:43,796 --> 00:00:44,516 Speaker 1: Mental chatter. 9 00:00:44,676 --> 00:00:48,276 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I was objecting to the phrase it's the journey, 10 00:00:48,436 --> 00:00:50,236 Speaker 2: not the destination. 11 00:00:49,956 --> 00:00:53,556 Speaker 1: The journey and the destination. It's the journey and the destination. 12 00:00:53,676 --> 00:00:54,596 Speaker 2: Yes, I'll buy that. 13 00:00:55,156 --> 00:00:57,796 Speaker 1: Well. The World Happiness Report twenty twenty four is now 14 00:00:57,876 --> 00:01:00,556 Speaker 1: finally out, so over the next few episodes, I'll be 15 00:01:00,636 --> 00:01:03,676 Speaker 1: talking to the report's real authors about the issues they 16 00:01:03,716 --> 00:01:07,276 Speaker 1: think are most pressing for the planet's well being. Unfortunately, 17 00:01:07,436 --> 00:01:09,636 Speaker 1: many people never get a chance to learn about the 18 00:01:09,636 --> 00:01:12,796 Speaker 1: full contents of the annual report because the headlines often 19 00:01:12,836 --> 00:01:16,676 Speaker 1: focus on just one attention grabbing part, the annual country 20 00:01:16,756 --> 00:01:20,236 Speaker 1: rankings of happiness around the world, which does kind of 21 00:01:20,236 --> 00:01:22,796 Speaker 1: make sense. I mean, we all want to know how's 22 00:01:22,836 --> 00:01:25,836 Speaker 1: my country doing. So in this episode, I'll start by 23 00:01:25,836 --> 00:01:28,276 Speaker 1: diving into those rankings to find out what they do 24 00:01:28,436 --> 00:01:30,916 Speaker 1: and don't tell us about how to live happier lives. 25 00:01:31,716 --> 00:01:33,396 Speaker 1: And I have the perfect guide. 26 00:01:33,676 --> 00:01:36,956 Speaker 2: Hi am John Halliwell at the University of British Columbia 27 00:01:36,956 --> 00:01:38,796 Speaker 2: and the Vancouver School of Economics. 28 00:01:39,076 --> 00:01:41,276 Speaker 1: John knows all there is to know about the infamous 29 00:01:41,276 --> 00:01:44,156 Speaker 1: country rankings because he was there at the founding of 30 00:01:44,196 --> 00:01:45,756 Speaker 1: the first World Happiness Report. 31 00:01:46,156 --> 00:01:47,836 Speaker 2: I've been in there right from the. 32 00:01:47,716 --> 00:01:51,276 Speaker 1: Beginning, starting more than a decade ago. The International Day 33 00:01:51,316 --> 00:01:54,196 Speaker 1: of Happiness and its accompanying report. We're an attempt by 34 00:01:54,196 --> 00:01:56,716 Speaker 1: the United Nations to get governments to take the happiness 35 00:01:56,756 --> 00:01:59,716 Speaker 1: of people around the world more seriously and to enact 36 00:01:59,756 --> 00:02:03,436 Speaker 1: policies that would improve our wellbeing. And the United Nations 37 00:02:03,476 --> 00:02:06,276 Speaker 1: quickly realized that ranking country level well being was a 38 00:02:06,316 --> 00:02:09,916 Speaker 1: big thing. But how does it work well? The rankings 39 00:02:09,916 --> 00:02:12,876 Speaker 1: are compiled from data gathered by the polling company Gallop, 40 00:02:13,156 --> 00:02:15,196 Speaker 1: which asks people around the world the same set of 41 00:02:15,316 --> 00:02:18,316 Speaker 1: questions in a huge survey known as the Gallup World Pole, 42 00:02:18,716 --> 00:02:21,516 Speaker 1: which is given to around one thousand people in each country. 43 00:02:22,076 --> 00:02:25,036 Speaker 1: The happiness ratings come from people's responses to a metric 44 00:02:25,196 --> 00:02:29,076 Speaker 1: known as life evaluation, or the chantral ladder. People are 45 00:02:29,116 --> 00:02:31,316 Speaker 1: asked to rate their current life as a whole, using 46 00:02:31,356 --> 00:02:34,116 Speaker 1: the metaphor of a ladder, in which the best possible 47 00:02:34,196 --> 00:02:35,836 Speaker 1: life would be a ten all the way at the 48 00:02:35,836 --> 00:02:38,356 Speaker 1: top of the ladder, and the worst possible life would 49 00:02:38,356 --> 00:02:41,636 Speaker 1: be a zero down at the bottom. Everyone's ratings are 50 00:02:41,676 --> 00:02:45,236 Speaker 1: then average together into country level happiness scores, and to 51 00:02:45,276 --> 00:02:48,596 Speaker 1: make sure small fluctuations don't sway their rankings, the scientists 52 00:02:48,676 --> 00:02:51,276 Speaker 1: use a three year average for each country. But the 53 00:02:51,316 --> 00:02:54,796 Speaker 1: report doesn't just measure people's life evaluations. People in each 54 00:02:54,796 --> 00:02:58,036 Speaker 1: country are also asked about their emotions. They report on 55 00:02:58,116 --> 00:03:02,356 Speaker 1: the positive feelings they've experienced specifically laughter, enjoyment, and interest, 56 00:03:02,796 --> 00:03:05,836 Speaker 1: as well as the not so positive ones worry, sadness, 57 00:03:05,836 --> 00:03:08,916 Speaker 1: and anger. And the gallup world pole doesn't stop there. 58 00:03:09,316 --> 00:03:11,956 Speaker 1: It also includes a set of other questions that help 59 00:03:11,996 --> 00:03:15,556 Speaker 1: researchers explain why countries differ in their overall well being, 60 00:03:16,356 --> 00:03:19,276 Speaker 1: and this year, researchers have discovered that six of those 61 00:03:19,316 --> 00:03:22,396 Speaker 1: other questions seem to matter a lot. What's factor number one? 62 00:03:22,836 --> 00:03:26,036 Speaker 1: It's a country's wealth as measured by their GDP that 63 00:03:26,236 --> 00:03:28,796 Speaker 1: is the total value of goods and services produced in 64 00:03:28,836 --> 00:03:33,356 Speaker 1: one year, divided by the total population. What's factor number two, 65 00:03:33,516 --> 00:03:37,196 Speaker 1: it's a citizen's average life expectancy. This one takes into 66 00:03:37,196 --> 00:03:40,556 Speaker 1: account how the nation's health plays into its happiness. The 67 00:03:40,596 --> 00:03:43,876 Speaker 1: third and fourth variables involve people's ability to act freely 68 00:03:43,996 --> 00:03:48,076 Speaker 1: without government intervention or corruption. Those questions are are you 69 00:03:48,116 --> 00:03:50,436 Speaker 1: satisfied with your freedom to choose what you do with 70 00:03:50,476 --> 00:03:54,756 Speaker 1: your life? And is corruption widespread throughout the government or businesses. 71 00:03:55,276 --> 00:03:57,596 Speaker 1: The fifth and six factors have to do with people's 72 00:03:57,636 --> 00:04:01,236 Speaker 1: social connection and generosity. People are asked if you were 73 00:04:01,276 --> 00:04:03,516 Speaker 1: in trouble, do you have friends or relatives you could 74 00:04:03,556 --> 00:04:06,156 Speaker 1: count on to help you? And also things like have 75 00:04:06,236 --> 00:04:08,676 Speaker 1: you donated money to a charity in the past month. 76 00:04:09,476 --> 00:04:12,396 Speaker 1: These days, the World Happiness Reports country rankings are a 77 00:04:12,436 --> 00:04:15,956 Speaker 1: big annual event, But when the report first started, Jonatus 78 00:04:16,076 --> 00:04:18,116 Speaker 1: Co authors had no idea it would have such a 79 00:04:18,156 --> 00:04:18,796 Speaker 1: huge impact. 80 00:04:20,356 --> 00:04:23,316 Speaker 2: We were surprised that the first report got as much 81 00:04:23,516 --> 00:04:26,596 Speaker 2: public attention as it did to us. It spoke to 82 00:04:26,676 --> 00:04:31,676 Speaker 2: a need for a broadly available set of data reflecting 83 00:04:31,716 --> 00:04:34,516 Speaker 2: the quality of lives all over the world. There was 84 00:04:34,716 --> 00:04:38,596 Speaker 2: nothing like that regularly available to the media and to 85 00:04:38,716 --> 00:04:43,276 Speaker 2: people in general, and so we kept on producing the report. 86 00:04:43,436 --> 00:04:47,276 Speaker 2: The interest was broad and it got broader, so that 87 00:04:47,516 --> 00:04:50,596 Speaker 2: in each report we had a bigger take up, and 88 00:04:51,756 --> 00:04:56,996 Speaker 2: it was initially people, but I think that then translated 89 00:04:57,436 --> 00:05:02,156 Speaker 2: into a broader interest that then encouraged governments to actually 90 00:05:02,196 --> 00:05:05,236 Speaker 2: focus on well being, all of which, of course then 91 00:05:05,396 --> 00:05:09,316 Speaker 2: requires that you build a public service that's trained in 92 00:05:09,356 --> 00:05:13,796 Speaker 2: well being science and knows how to analyze policies to 93 00:05:14,036 --> 00:05:16,556 Speaker 2: deliver what's best for better lives. 94 00:05:16,836 --> 00:05:19,076 Speaker 1: My understanding is the rankings have been in there since 95 00:05:19,116 --> 00:05:20,796 Speaker 1: the original twenty eleven report. 96 00:05:20,876 --> 00:05:25,156 Speaker 2: Correct, there was some disagreement among our three founding editors. 97 00:05:25,676 --> 00:05:27,956 Speaker 2: I didn't want to have rankings at all. I said, 98 00:05:27,996 --> 00:05:31,276 Speaker 2: that's not the way in which happiness is not a 99 00:05:31,356 --> 00:05:34,836 Speaker 2: zero sum game. It's for everybody to improve their happiness. 100 00:05:34,876 --> 00:05:38,116 Speaker 2: It doesn't matter whether they're happier or not than their neighbors. 101 00:05:38,436 --> 00:05:41,156 Speaker 2: So we didn't even put in numbers, but I had 102 00:05:41,196 --> 00:05:44,516 Speaker 2: to go down with my finger and count out because 103 00:05:44,636 --> 00:05:47,356 Speaker 2: people wanted to know what number they were in the list. 104 00:05:47,436 --> 00:05:49,796 Speaker 2: So in the next one we put in the numbers, 105 00:05:49,836 --> 00:05:52,996 Speaker 2: and the numbers have been there ever since. We use 106 00:05:53,076 --> 00:05:56,756 Speaker 2: the rankings as a way because quite clearly it's a 107 00:05:56,836 --> 00:05:59,876 Speaker 2: primary point attention for people. They want to know how 108 00:05:59,916 --> 00:06:03,516 Speaker 2: their country does and how that does in comparison with 109 00:06:03,596 --> 00:06:06,276 Speaker 2: other countries whom they think of as their peers. The 110 00:06:06,356 --> 00:06:10,836 Speaker 2: rankings may be what brings the area clicks, but our 111 00:06:10,916 --> 00:06:14,676 Speaker 2: purpose is not to stop there, not even to emphasize those, 112 00:06:15,196 --> 00:06:19,116 Speaker 2: but to dig deeper into what makes for better lives 113 00:06:19,156 --> 00:06:22,156 Speaker 2: so that people can do more about their own lives 114 00:06:22,196 --> 00:06:25,636 Speaker 2: and the lives of those around them and help move 115 00:06:25,716 --> 00:06:26,276 Speaker 2: the arrow. 116 00:06:26,356 --> 00:06:27,996 Speaker 1: This is why I'm so excited that you've taken the 117 00:06:28,076 --> 00:06:29,916 Speaker 1: time to talk to us today, because I feel like 118 00:06:30,156 --> 00:06:32,116 Speaker 1: sometimes when I see the news coverage of the World 119 00:06:32,156 --> 00:06:34,476 Speaker 1: Happiness Report, it's just like, this is the country that's 120 00:06:34,556 --> 00:06:36,476 Speaker 1: number one, and then it ends there. But I think 121 00:06:36,516 --> 00:06:38,716 Speaker 1: as we dig deeper and try to understand where those 122 00:06:38,796 --> 00:06:40,756 Speaker 1: rankings come from and what we can do differently, that's 123 00:06:40,836 --> 00:06:42,556 Speaker 1: the part that's going to matter so much more. 124 00:06:42,796 --> 00:06:43,276 Speaker 2: I agree. 125 00:06:43,556 --> 00:06:46,276 Speaker 1: And so before we kind of jump into the rankings 126 00:06:46,276 --> 00:06:48,716 Speaker 1: this year, I wanted to talk about what goes into 127 00:06:48,756 --> 00:06:52,196 Speaker 1: the measurements that make up the World Happiness Report. So 128 00:06:52,196 --> 00:06:54,636 Speaker 1: where do these data come from, and when we're talking 129 00:06:54,676 --> 00:06:58,076 Speaker 1: about happier countries, what are the specific measurements that are 130 00:06:58,076 --> 00:06:58,716 Speaker 1: going into that. 131 00:06:59,396 --> 00:07:03,676 Speaker 2: It's an important question to talk about because we keep 132 00:07:03,716 --> 00:07:08,196 Speaker 2: emphasizing to people this is not our opinions that they're hearing, 133 00:07:08,476 --> 00:07:12,796 Speaker 2: it's their own opinions, because what we report are the 134 00:07:12,996 --> 00:07:17,796 Speaker 2: average value of the answers to a single question how 135 00:07:17,876 --> 00:07:21,436 Speaker 2: people evaluate their lives on a scale of zero to ten. 136 00:07:22,316 --> 00:07:25,956 Speaker 2: And those rankings don't tell you anything, of course, they 137 00:07:26,036 --> 00:07:28,676 Speaker 2: just tell you the state of play within a country. 138 00:07:28,996 --> 00:07:32,316 Speaker 2: And then the next interesting question, which we started answering 139 00:07:32,356 --> 00:07:36,436 Speaker 2: in more detail, was why are these countries different? And 140 00:07:36,796 --> 00:07:40,396 Speaker 2: some people treat our explanations as the primary measure, and 141 00:07:40,516 --> 00:07:43,596 Speaker 2: we keep trying to remind them that what we're presenting 142 00:07:43,676 --> 00:07:48,276 Speaker 2: as not our expertise, but simply telling them what people 143 00:07:48,316 --> 00:07:49,796 Speaker 2: in their countries have said. 144 00:07:50,196 --> 00:07:52,716 Speaker 1: What are the questions that people are answering in these surveys. 145 00:07:52,916 --> 00:07:56,556 Speaker 2: Well, when I entered this field more than twenty five 146 00:07:56,636 --> 00:08:00,636 Speaker 2: years ago, I thought of myself as Aristotle's research assistant, 147 00:08:01,276 --> 00:08:04,596 Speaker 2: because he had said millennia ago that if you want 148 00:08:04,636 --> 00:08:06,636 Speaker 2: to find out what makes for a good life, you 149 00:08:06,676 --> 00:08:09,356 Speaker 2: ask people in a reflective moment to think about their 150 00:08:09,396 --> 00:08:11,636 Speaker 2: life as a whole. Then he listed a lot of 151 00:08:11,716 --> 00:08:15,836 Speaker 2: factors that ought to underlie that, including living a good 152 00:08:15,876 --> 00:08:21,676 Speaker 2: and virtuous life, and he said Aristotle that positive emotions, 153 00:08:21,756 --> 00:08:24,996 Speaker 2: laughter and fun were a part of that. So the 154 00:08:25,036 --> 00:08:30,116 Speaker 2: emotions are important. Nobody thinks not did you feel anger, stress, 155 00:08:30,236 --> 00:08:36,116 Speaker 2: worry yesterday? And did you feel positive emotions yesterday? Yes 156 00:08:36,236 --> 00:08:39,556 Speaker 2: or no. But some people think, because the World Happiness 157 00:08:39,556 --> 00:08:42,396 Speaker 2: Support is called the World Happiness Report, that it's all 158 00:08:42,436 --> 00:08:47,276 Speaker 2: about affective measures or emotional measures or short term measures 159 00:08:47,316 --> 00:08:51,476 Speaker 2: of people's well being, and or answer to the people 160 00:08:51,516 --> 00:08:54,756 Speaker 2: who say this is all about short term moods and 161 00:08:54,836 --> 00:08:58,636 Speaker 2: it isn't a serious business, it's all fluff, by reminding 162 00:08:58,676 --> 00:09:01,756 Speaker 2: people that are two ways of using the word happiness. 163 00:09:02,076 --> 00:09:05,036 Speaker 2: One is as an emotion, how happy were you yesterday? 164 00:09:05,076 --> 00:09:08,156 Speaker 2: And the other is how happy are you about something? 165 00:09:08,916 --> 00:09:12,796 Speaker 2: That could be the baggage retrieval system they have at Heathrow, 166 00:09:13,276 --> 00:09:15,396 Speaker 2: or it could be anything. But the point is it 167 00:09:15,396 --> 00:09:19,756 Speaker 2: doesn't require the emotion of happiness. It's saying how satisfied 168 00:09:19,796 --> 00:09:23,916 Speaker 2: are you with that? And so the judgmental use of 169 00:09:23,956 --> 00:09:27,276 Speaker 2: the word happiness is our main focus in the report. 170 00:09:27,716 --> 00:09:31,316 Speaker 2: We also include, of course, the affect of measure and 171 00:09:31,396 --> 00:09:35,516 Speaker 2: people sometimes and rightly so, get confused about these two 172 00:09:35,556 --> 00:09:38,196 Speaker 2: different uses of the word, because we use the word 173 00:09:38,236 --> 00:09:41,916 Speaker 2: both ways ourselves. But for us, it's these overall life 174 00:09:41,916 --> 00:09:44,436 Speaker 2: evaluations that are of fundamental importance. 175 00:09:44,636 --> 00:09:46,156 Speaker 1: And so now that we've gotten the history of the 176 00:09:46,196 --> 00:09:48,036 Speaker 1: report out of the way, let's get to the thing 177 00:09:48,116 --> 00:09:50,196 Speaker 1: that I think is on everybody's mind, which is, you know, 178 00:09:50,396 --> 00:09:52,836 Speaker 1: who's the highest right country this year? Who are you 179 00:09:52,876 --> 00:09:56,276 Speaker 1: seeing coming out in the newest data as the highest 180 00:09:56,316 --> 00:09:56,836 Speaker 1: on the list? 181 00:09:57,236 --> 00:10:00,156 Speaker 2: Because the rankings are based on a three year average, 182 00:10:01,156 --> 00:10:04,156 Speaker 2: and Finland was pretty well ahead of the average last year, 183 00:10:04,196 --> 00:10:08,356 Speaker 2: it's no surprise that Finland is in number one again. 184 00:10:08,796 --> 00:10:12,316 Speaker 2: What's interesting to see is how this plays out in Finland. 185 00:10:12,596 --> 00:10:15,596 Speaker 2: Frequently the Finns say we're not the happiest country in 186 00:10:15,636 --> 00:10:18,156 Speaker 2: the world, and what they're thinking of, in part is 187 00:10:18,196 --> 00:10:21,516 Speaker 2: the other version of happiness that they don't see, all 188 00:10:21,876 --> 00:10:24,436 Speaker 2: the laughter in the streets that they're used to thinking 189 00:10:24,476 --> 00:10:27,156 Speaker 2: of as happiness. But then you ask them, how is 190 00:10:27,196 --> 00:10:29,876 Speaker 2: life in Finland? Tell us about it? Where are the 191 00:10:29,916 --> 00:10:32,676 Speaker 2: things you enjoy and what do you value about it? 192 00:10:32,676 --> 00:10:36,676 Speaker 2: It turns out they end up seeing the importance of trust, 193 00:10:36,956 --> 00:10:40,876 Speaker 2: of warm social relations, of caring about each other. They're 194 00:10:40,876 --> 00:10:45,716 Speaker 2: not surprised to hear that when wallets were experimentally dropped, 195 00:10:46,116 --> 00:10:50,276 Speaker 2: the highest proportion anywhere ten out of ten, was in Helsinki. 196 00:10:50,716 --> 00:10:54,156 Speaker 2: And so they see that, they appreciate it, they understand 197 00:10:54,236 --> 00:10:57,316 Speaker 2: that it's maybe not that way elsewhere. They don't boast 198 00:10:57,396 --> 00:11:01,116 Speaker 2: about it. That's another feature of the Finns. Some of 199 00:11:01,156 --> 00:11:04,916 Speaker 2: the Finnish researchers say that above the other Nordic countries, 200 00:11:04,996 --> 00:11:07,796 Speaker 2: even though the other Nordic countries are richer and more 201 00:11:07,836 --> 00:11:10,996 Speaker 2: outfront than some other ways, is that they don't take 202 00:11:11,036 --> 00:11:14,796 Speaker 2: themselves so seriously. They don't rank themselves with each other 203 00:11:14,876 --> 00:11:19,316 Speaker 2: as much. They're less materialistic and more concerned with each other, 204 00:11:19,796 --> 00:11:23,516 Speaker 2: and that's quietly okay with them. I would have to 205 00:11:23,556 --> 00:11:26,756 Speaker 2: say that a country that boasted about its high position 206 00:11:27,196 --> 00:11:30,476 Speaker 2: is probably not likely to sustain it long because that's 207 00:11:30,516 --> 00:11:33,516 Speaker 2: not the point. And when Denmark was highest, they didn't 208 00:11:33,556 --> 00:11:37,116 Speaker 2: boast about it, but they set about trying to learn 209 00:11:37,156 --> 00:11:39,996 Speaker 2: the lessons from the science of happiness and spread them 210 00:11:40,156 --> 00:11:43,596 Speaker 2: not just in Denmark but in other countries. And that's 211 00:11:43,636 --> 00:11:46,076 Speaker 2: a classic Nordic way, and it's one of the reasons 212 00:11:46,116 --> 00:11:49,636 Speaker 2: why the five Nordic countries are always in the top ten, 213 00:11:50,236 --> 00:11:53,876 Speaker 2: that they are also among the world leaders in untied 214 00:11:53,956 --> 00:11:57,996 Speaker 2: foreign aid, in the receipt of refugees, of leading the 215 00:11:58,316 --> 00:12:02,676 Speaker 2: international movements to spread well being around the world. Those 216 00:12:02,756 --> 00:12:06,756 Speaker 2: all hang together and they make a consistent package. 217 00:12:07,036 --> 00:12:08,636 Speaker 1: So that's thing number one about the report that's kind 218 00:12:08,636 --> 00:12:11,276 Speaker 1: of not very surprising. Finland's at the top yet again, 219 00:12:11,396 --> 00:12:13,756 Speaker 1: and they're up there with all these other Scandinavian countries. 220 00:12:14,236 --> 00:12:16,796 Speaker 1: Something else that's occurred in other happiness reports in the 221 00:12:16,836 --> 00:12:19,156 Speaker 1: past is that there's big gaps between the top of 222 00:12:19,156 --> 00:12:21,236 Speaker 1: the list and the bottom. Is that something that you 223 00:12:21,276 --> 00:12:23,676 Speaker 1: also saw in the most recent report. 224 00:12:23,716 --> 00:12:28,636 Speaker 2: The gap, if anything, has become a little wider, And 225 00:12:28,676 --> 00:12:32,356 Speaker 2: that's I guess because Afghanistan is dropping further and further 226 00:12:32,516 --> 00:12:35,876 Speaker 2: still having been last for several years, it's now further 227 00:12:35,996 --> 00:12:37,036 Speaker 2: behind the rest. 228 00:12:37,356 --> 00:12:39,236 Speaker 1: One of the surprises that I saw in the report 229 00:12:39,276 --> 00:12:40,916 Speaker 1: was that there are a few countries that kind of 230 00:12:40,996 --> 00:12:43,516 Speaker 1: you jumped up much higher than they'd been historically, and 231 00:12:43,596 --> 00:12:45,956 Speaker 1: a few other countries that had fallen down. And so 232 00:12:46,036 --> 00:12:48,116 Speaker 1: let's talk about some of the countries that jumped up. 233 00:12:48,276 --> 00:12:50,676 Speaker 1: Any big kind of like surprises in terms of who 234 00:12:50,756 --> 00:12:52,916 Speaker 1: got much higher in terms of their happiness it. 235 00:12:52,836 --> 00:12:55,436 Speaker 2: Was nice to see Costa Rica back in the top twenty. 236 00:12:55,476 --> 00:12:59,036 Speaker 2: They were in the position twelve in twenty thirteen. Here 237 00:12:59,116 --> 00:13:01,796 Speaker 2: they are back because they're a very good example. They're 238 00:13:01,796 --> 00:13:05,956 Speaker 2: always the happiest country in Latin America and they touch 239 00:13:06,116 --> 00:13:09,596 Speaker 2: bases on all of the six factors we talked about. 240 00:13:09,796 --> 00:13:14,036 Speaker 2: Another thing that we highlight this year because we're talking 241 00:13:14,236 --> 00:13:18,316 Speaker 2: especially about happiness at different ages, is that we're seeing 242 00:13:18,356 --> 00:13:24,036 Speaker 2: a continuation of the gap between Central and Eastern Europe 243 00:13:24,116 --> 00:13:27,356 Speaker 2: and Western Europe, which was very big before the Wall 244 00:13:27,436 --> 00:13:31,276 Speaker 2: came down. It's been gradually narrowing over that whole period, 245 00:13:31,756 --> 00:13:35,916 Speaker 2: and we find this year, especially for the young, so low. 246 00:13:35,996 --> 00:13:39,476 Speaker 2: The gap for the old between Central and Eastern Europe 247 00:13:39,516 --> 00:13:42,276 Speaker 2: and Western Europe is still about a full point on 248 00:13:42,316 --> 00:13:45,556 Speaker 2: the ten point scale. For the young, the gap is gone. 249 00:13:45,996 --> 00:13:49,196 Speaker 2: So the young in Central and Eastern Europe are essentially 250 00:13:49,236 --> 00:13:52,836 Speaker 2: the same appreciation of their lives as in Western Europe, 251 00:13:53,036 --> 00:13:57,236 Speaker 2: and so there's a transition. To see. The overall transition 252 00:13:57,356 --> 00:14:00,156 Speaker 2: isn't complete yet, but for the young it is. It's 253 00:14:00,236 --> 00:14:03,356 Speaker 2: quite notable the young have become less happy in other 254 00:14:03,436 --> 00:14:06,036 Speaker 2: parts of the world, especially in North America. 255 00:14:06,116 --> 00:14:08,516 Speaker 1: So Costa Rica seems to be going up in the rankings, 256 00:14:08,596 --> 00:14:10,836 Speaker 1: but you also identified a few countries that seemed to 257 00:14:10,876 --> 00:14:12,916 Speaker 1: be going down. Which were those the. 258 00:14:13,076 --> 00:14:16,756 Speaker 2: Drops that we know because they were going out of 259 00:14:16,836 --> 00:14:21,436 Speaker 2: the top twenty was Germany in the United States United 260 00:14:21,476 --> 00:14:25,196 Speaker 2: States just above Germany last year, just above Germany this year. 261 00:14:25,636 --> 00:14:29,316 Speaker 2: But what was fifteen and sixteen is now twenty three 262 00:14:29,396 --> 00:14:33,836 Speaker 2: and twenty four in both cases, especially the United States, 263 00:14:33,956 --> 00:14:37,276 Speaker 2: due to drops in all age groups, but especially in 264 00:14:37,316 --> 00:14:37,676 Speaker 2: the young. 265 00:14:37,916 --> 00:14:39,636 Speaker 1: So this is sort of pretty bad for me being 266 00:14:39,676 --> 00:14:41,716 Speaker 1: from the United States, thinking that my country is now 267 00:14:41,836 --> 00:14:43,836 Speaker 1: no longer in the top twenty. I mean, was this 268 00:14:43,836 --> 00:14:46,196 Speaker 1: something that shocked the researchers or is this something that 269 00:14:46,196 --> 00:14:47,396 Speaker 1: you all expected to find? 270 00:14:47,636 --> 00:14:51,156 Speaker 2: The underlying trends have been there for a while. It 271 00:14:51,276 --> 00:14:55,276 Speaker 2: was not COVID related, So these things essentially are trends 272 00:14:55,316 --> 00:14:57,996 Speaker 2: that started before COVID. It's more or less carried on 273 00:14:58,396 --> 00:15:02,956 Speaker 2: the same way with only modest changes in balanced during COVID. 274 00:15:03,556 --> 00:15:05,956 Speaker 2: But a bit of a surprise because that's quite a 275 00:15:05,956 --> 00:15:09,556 Speaker 2: big drop, and it's similar in Canada. They draw among 276 00:15:09,636 --> 00:15:13,396 Speaker 2: the young is so substantial. So if you actually look 277 00:15:13,436 --> 00:15:18,436 Speaker 2: at the changes between twenty six to twenty ten, first 278 00:15:18,516 --> 00:15:21,596 Speaker 2: years of the poll and the most recent three years, 279 00:15:22,116 --> 00:15:24,676 Speaker 2: Canada and the United States have been among the biggest 280 00:15:24,916 --> 00:15:27,396 Speaker 2: drops over that whole period. It's not just one year, 281 00:15:27,476 --> 00:15:31,636 Speaker 2: it's over accumulating over that period, because Canada was fourth 282 00:15:31,756 --> 00:15:35,396 Speaker 2: and is fifteenth now and the US was eleven and 283 00:15:35,476 --> 00:15:38,156 Speaker 2: it's now twenty third. So you can see those are 284 00:15:38,236 --> 00:15:39,636 Speaker 2: quite big drops. 285 00:15:40,756 --> 00:15:43,156 Speaker 1: So what's behind the rise and fall of these nations 286 00:15:43,236 --> 00:15:46,236 Speaker 1: and the happiness rankings? What are some countries getting right 287 00:15:46,356 --> 00:15:49,916 Speaker 1: and others getting wrong? The Happiness Lab will be right back. 288 00:15:57,916 --> 00:16:00,516 Speaker 1: One thing that makes the World Happiness Reports so important 289 00:16:00,876 --> 00:16:03,276 Speaker 1: is that it doesn't just measure the differences in happiness 290 00:16:03,316 --> 00:16:06,196 Speaker 1: of people around the world. It also tries to determine 291 00:16:06,196 --> 00:16:08,716 Speaker 1: the factors that lead to those differences in well being, 292 00:16:09,156 --> 00:16:11,916 Speaker 1: and John says that this year six factors have emerged 293 00:16:11,916 --> 00:16:14,276 Speaker 1: as being important for the differences he and his team 294 00:16:14,276 --> 00:16:19,596 Speaker 1: have observed. Those predictive factors are country GDP, life expectancy, 295 00:16:19,836 --> 00:16:23,556 Speaker 1: freedom of choice, freedom from corruption, social connection, and how 296 00:16:23,636 --> 00:16:26,396 Speaker 1: generous people are. I wanted John to help us better 297 00:16:26,476 --> 00:16:30,436 Speaker 1: understand these factors, starting with country wealth. There's an old 298 00:16:30,476 --> 00:16:33,756 Speaker 1: saying that money can't buy you happiness. But if that's true, 299 00:16:33,876 --> 00:16:36,916 Speaker 1: why does GDP matter so much for a country's happiness ranking. 300 00:16:37,636 --> 00:16:40,716 Speaker 2: Aristotle was quite explicit about it. You have to have 301 00:16:40,796 --> 00:16:44,196 Speaker 2: the basic stuff to live on, or it's hard to 302 00:16:44,316 --> 00:16:47,996 Speaker 2: actually get a chance to enjoy and spread out. If 303 00:16:48,036 --> 00:16:50,796 Speaker 2: you add on to that list of questions, not just 304 00:16:50,876 --> 00:16:54,076 Speaker 2: the average level of income, but did you have enough 305 00:16:54,116 --> 00:16:56,236 Speaker 2: to eat or not have enough to eat at some 306 00:16:56,396 --> 00:16:59,956 Speaker 2: time in the last two weeks, the basic survival part 307 00:17:00,036 --> 00:17:03,716 Speaker 2: of GDP is very important. So to move people out 308 00:17:03,756 --> 00:17:06,916 Speaker 2: of a situation where they can only think about the 309 00:17:06,996 --> 00:17:11,356 Speaker 2: ways to get their next meal is extraordinarily important. There's 310 00:17:11,356 --> 00:17:14,556 Speaker 2: been a lot of discussion about whether at some stage 311 00:17:15,076 --> 00:17:18,756 Speaker 2: the income effect starts to peter out. You get less 312 00:17:18,796 --> 00:17:22,196 Speaker 2: bang for the buck as you get richer. Same with education. 313 00:17:22,716 --> 00:17:25,516 Speaker 2: Education matters for well being, but if you put in 314 00:17:25,556 --> 00:17:29,876 Speaker 2: the other things that support well being, education itself drops out. 315 00:17:29,916 --> 00:17:33,316 Speaker 2: In other words, it's a way of allowing people to 316 00:17:33,996 --> 00:17:37,716 Speaker 2: provide a good life, and so education without good purpose 317 00:17:37,996 --> 00:17:41,196 Speaker 2: doesn't do any good for people. Same with income, But income, 318 00:17:41,676 --> 00:17:44,956 Speaker 2: like good health, is kind of fundamental as a building 319 00:17:44,996 --> 00:17:49,516 Speaker 2: block for good lives, and everybody knew that before there 320 00:17:49,596 --> 00:17:52,116 Speaker 2: was a World Happiness Report, So that if you ask 321 00:17:52,236 --> 00:17:54,756 Speaker 2: the development agencies, there anybody else say what are you 322 00:17:54,796 --> 00:17:59,116 Speaker 2: after or after GDP per capita healthy life expectancy. But 323 00:17:59,476 --> 00:18:01,916 Speaker 2: when we get these data from people, we find out, well, 324 00:18:02,156 --> 00:18:05,236 Speaker 2: that's maybe half the story. But the other half of 325 00:18:05,276 --> 00:18:08,356 Speaker 2: the story is what is the social context in which 326 00:18:08,396 --> 00:18:11,356 Speaker 2: people are living? Is there a high enough level of 327 00:18:11,436 --> 00:18:14,236 Speaker 2: trust around them? We use a measure of corruption. There's 328 00:18:14,276 --> 00:18:17,356 Speaker 2: a sense of personal freedom. How free are you to 329 00:18:17,436 --> 00:18:20,516 Speaker 2: make your key life decisions? Do you have someone to 330 00:18:20,556 --> 00:18:23,276 Speaker 2: count on in times of trouble. That's a very limited 331 00:18:23,356 --> 00:18:26,876 Speaker 2: measure of the warmth of your social connections, but it 332 00:18:26,956 --> 00:18:31,276 Speaker 2: turns out to be very important. And finally, and less 333 00:18:31,316 --> 00:18:35,836 Speaker 2: emphasized by Aristotle is a benevolence to what extent and 334 00:18:35,916 --> 00:18:41,236 Speaker 2: we use donations net of the effective income, but it's 335 00:18:41,436 --> 00:18:46,076 Speaker 2: very apparent that doing things ideally with others for others 336 00:18:46,196 --> 00:18:50,996 Speaker 2: is very important. One measure that we have only one 337 00:18:51,076 --> 00:18:54,636 Speaker 2: year of so it hasn't got into the basic modeling, 338 00:18:55,116 --> 00:18:58,196 Speaker 2: but we find out to be very important is whether 339 00:18:58,236 --> 00:19:01,596 Speaker 2: people think their wallet would be returned if they lost. 340 00:19:01,636 --> 00:19:05,116 Speaker 2: An actual experiment show that people answer that question. They 341 00:19:05,236 --> 00:19:09,796 Speaker 2: understand the relative likelihood of a wallet return looking across 342 00:19:09,836 --> 00:19:12,676 Speaker 2: countries and a wallet return is nice because it's not 343 00:19:12,716 --> 00:19:16,236 Speaker 2: just honesty, it's also benevolence, because you could be perfectly 344 00:19:16,276 --> 00:19:18,836 Speaker 2: trustworthy but still not take the time out of your 345 00:19:18,876 --> 00:19:21,076 Speaker 2: life to pick up a wallet and make sure it 346 00:19:21,116 --> 00:19:23,796 Speaker 2: got back to the owner. But that's what people do 347 00:19:23,916 --> 00:19:27,356 Speaker 2: in these high trust countries and the high ranking countries. 348 00:19:27,396 --> 00:19:31,716 Speaker 2: The wallet return is very high in the Nordic countries, 349 00:19:31,756 --> 00:19:34,276 Speaker 2: and it's very important. There was a survey we had 350 00:19:34,396 --> 00:19:39,396 Speaker 2: that measured what people's risk was of mental health problems, 351 00:19:39,996 --> 00:19:43,996 Speaker 2: being a victim of violent crime, or being unemployed, and 352 00:19:44,636 --> 00:19:47,956 Speaker 2: the positive effect coming from thinking your wallet would be 353 00:19:48,076 --> 00:19:52,036 Speaker 2: returned if found by either a stranger or police, or 354 00:19:52,116 --> 00:19:55,636 Speaker 2: especially both was way more important than the negative on 355 00:19:55,796 --> 00:20:00,316 Speaker 2: people's life evaluations from those other factors, which are very important. 356 00:20:00,556 --> 00:20:02,316 Speaker 1: One of the things that really seems to matter is 357 00:20:02,356 --> 00:20:05,956 Speaker 1: having somebody to count on that particular metric. And interestingly, 358 00:20:05,956 --> 00:20:08,076 Speaker 1: if I understand the report right, that seems to be 359 00:20:08,156 --> 00:20:11,316 Speaker 1: more important than reporting that you're not lonely. It seems 360 00:20:11,316 --> 00:20:13,916 Speaker 1: to be the positive effect of social connection rather than 361 00:20:13,916 --> 00:20:16,796 Speaker 1: the negative. One walk through why that's so important for me. 362 00:20:17,236 --> 00:20:20,236 Speaker 2: That's a good point. And there's a new survey that 363 00:20:20,356 --> 00:20:24,436 Speaker 2: was done in twenty twenty two the Meta Gallop World 364 00:20:24,716 --> 00:20:28,876 Speaker 2: Connection Survey, where they measured on the same scale to 365 00:20:28,956 --> 00:20:31,916 Speaker 2: what extent are you connected with other people? To what 366 00:20:32,036 --> 00:20:36,396 Speaker 2: extent are you supported by others you're socially supported? And 367 00:20:36,436 --> 00:20:38,996 Speaker 2: then to what extent do you feel lonely? On that 368 00:20:39,116 --> 00:20:43,756 Speaker 2: same scale, right across the world, feelings of positive social 369 00:20:43,836 --> 00:20:48,996 Speaker 2: support were twice as frequent as loneliness. Despite the fact 370 00:20:49,116 --> 00:20:52,076 Speaker 2: loneliness and the Surgeon General's report and you name it 371 00:20:52,116 --> 00:20:56,036 Speaker 2: is being treated as a major crisis. At least I personally, 372 00:20:56,116 --> 00:20:59,476 Speaker 2: and I think most of our analysts would agree, it's 373 00:20:59,556 --> 00:21:03,756 Speaker 2: much more important to emphasize the positives than the negatives, because, 374 00:21:03,756 --> 00:21:08,276 Speaker 2: in a sense, a supportive social environment not only is 375 00:21:08,316 --> 00:21:11,756 Speaker 2: twice as important is the absence of loneliness, it cuts 376 00:21:11,796 --> 00:21:15,676 Speaker 2: loneliness because of course, the best cure for loneliness is 377 00:21:15,716 --> 00:21:19,476 Speaker 2: a vaccine, and the best vaccine is a friend. And 378 00:21:19,556 --> 00:21:23,116 Speaker 2: so it's these positive things that should get the emphasis. 379 00:21:23,276 --> 00:21:25,956 Speaker 2: And that's the way to, as it were, cure loneliness 380 00:21:26,276 --> 00:21:28,596 Speaker 2: is not to wait till it happens, but to have 381 00:21:28,676 --> 00:21:31,596 Speaker 2: a social environment that is supportive. 382 00:21:31,836 --> 00:21:33,876 Speaker 1: And this seems to mirror something else that you've seen 383 00:21:33,996 --> 00:21:36,116 Speaker 1: time again in the report as I understand it, which 384 00:21:36,116 --> 00:21:39,356 Speaker 1: is that sometimes these positive behaviors or even the positive 385 00:21:39,356 --> 00:21:41,836 Speaker 1: emotions seem to be winning out in terms of these 386 00:21:41,876 --> 00:21:46,236 Speaker 1: life evaluation measures over the negative behaviors and the negative emotions. 387 00:21:46,556 --> 00:21:48,596 Speaker 1: What are some other examples of this, Well. 388 00:21:48,436 --> 00:21:53,116 Speaker 2: It turns up in lots of different domains that people 389 00:21:53,236 --> 00:21:57,156 Speaker 2: do value the chance to do things for other people 390 00:21:57,276 --> 00:22:00,596 Speaker 2: and with other people. There were surveys in one report 391 00:22:00,676 --> 00:22:04,916 Speaker 2: about how people were happier in green environments and in 392 00:22:05,156 --> 00:22:10,196 Speaker 2: less noisy environments than elsewhere, and we had the authors 393 00:22:10,276 --> 00:22:13,636 Speaker 2: go back to show who people were with and who 394 00:22:13,756 --> 00:22:16,596 Speaker 2: you were with at the time you were doing something 395 00:22:16,716 --> 00:22:19,076 Speaker 2: was much more important than what you were doing. So 396 00:22:19,276 --> 00:22:22,796 Speaker 2: people were happier commuting with a friend than they were 397 00:22:22,836 --> 00:22:26,996 Speaker 2: walking alone in a beautiful environment. Of course, the best 398 00:22:27,156 --> 00:22:29,596 Speaker 2: was to be in the green environment with a friend, 399 00:22:29,796 --> 00:22:33,716 Speaker 2: but that shows you the dominance of the social context 400 00:22:34,076 --> 00:22:38,916 Speaker 2: over other aspects. One issue that came up in Issuear's 401 00:22:38,916 --> 00:22:42,316 Speaker 2: report is that the gallop world pole has now been 402 00:22:42,396 --> 00:22:45,676 Speaker 2: going on long enough that we have the potential for 403 00:22:45,796 --> 00:22:49,316 Speaker 2: splitting out generational effects from age effects. You know, there 404 00:22:49,396 --> 00:22:52,756 Speaker 2: is a sort of midlife low that appears in a 405 00:22:52,796 --> 00:22:56,396 Speaker 2: lot of the data on an age basis, and so 406 00:22:56,476 --> 00:22:59,876 Speaker 2: we have dug into that, but also trying to separate 407 00:22:59,916 --> 00:23:03,036 Speaker 2: it from when people were born, and so we split 408 00:23:03,116 --> 00:23:08,596 Speaker 2: the population into those born before nineteen sixty five boomers 409 00:23:08,596 --> 00:23:13,036 Speaker 2: and their predecessors, those born after nineteen eighty, who were 410 00:23:13,116 --> 00:23:17,316 Speaker 2: then the Millennials and Gen Z, and then the intervening 411 00:23:17,356 --> 00:23:21,196 Speaker 2: group of Gen X. And then what we did this 412 00:23:21,276 --> 00:23:26,276 Speaker 2: is continuing with the benevolence theme. There was a huge 413 00:23:26,316 --> 00:23:30,756 Speaker 2: increase in benevolence during the pandemic years compared to twenty 414 00:23:30,796 --> 00:23:35,796 Speaker 2: seventeen to twenty nineteen. That boost is still going on now, 415 00:23:35,996 --> 00:23:40,156 Speaker 2: right through twenty twenty three. And we asked ourselves, because 416 00:23:40,196 --> 00:23:42,756 Speaker 2: this is a big item of discussion, especially in the 417 00:23:42,836 --> 00:23:46,556 Speaker 2: United States, whether the Millennials and their successors are the 418 00:23:46,636 --> 00:23:50,676 Speaker 2: ME generation, the Wei generation, or just like other generations. 419 00:23:51,076 --> 00:23:53,396 Speaker 2: So we were able to look at this boost in 420 00:23:53,476 --> 00:23:57,516 Speaker 2: benevolent behavior and then has this boost been the same 421 00:23:57,916 --> 00:24:02,156 Speaker 2: for the millennials as it has for the earlier generations. 422 00:24:02,836 --> 00:24:06,116 Speaker 2: And first of all, we found that that boost is 423 00:24:06,236 --> 00:24:11,276 Speaker 2: everywhere across all generations. In terms of the ME versus 424 00:24:11,356 --> 00:24:15,196 Speaker 2: WE generation. We find out that the millennials jumped up 425 00:24:15,316 --> 00:24:19,796 Speaker 2: even more than their predecessors to help others when help 426 00:24:19,916 --> 00:24:23,396 Speaker 2: was required during those COVID years. So that's a very 427 00:24:23,476 --> 00:24:27,556 Speaker 2: encouraging piece of evidence to offset some of the pessimism 428 00:24:27,676 --> 00:24:30,956 Speaker 2: that people seem to have about the world falling apart 429 00:24:31,036 --> 00:24:31,716 Speaker 2: behind them. 430 00:24:31,756 --> 00:24:33,916 Speaker 1: Oh I love that. I love that statistic. One of 431 00:24:33,916 --> 00:24:35,556 Speaker 1: the other things I was so interested in in this 432 00:24:35,596 --> 00:24:38,716 Speaker 1: report is that you're actually looking at these differences across 433 00:24:38,756 --> 00:24:42,636 Speaker 1: age and whether the rankings hold not just for everyone, 434 00:24:42,716 --> 00:24:45,716 Speaker 1: but whether they hold as well for young individuals versus 435 00:24:45,716 --> 00:24:48,676 Speaker 1: older individuals and so on. And so, you know what, 436 00:24:48,756 --> 00:24:51,676 Speaker 1: did you see the rankings pretty consistent across Asia? Do 437 00:24:51,716 --> 00:24:53,476 Speaker 1: we see some big differences. 438 00:24:53,236 --> 00:24:56,756 Speaker 2: Huge differences. Canada and the United States, the rankings for 439 00:24:56,836 --> 00:25:00,396 Speaker 2: the old are fifty or more ranks higher than for 440 00:25:00,516 --> 00:25:04,356 Speaker 2: the young. There are many other countries where the rankings 441 00:25:04,396 --> 00:25:08,556 Speaker 2: for the old are forty or more lower than for 442 00:25:08,636 --> 00:25:12,956 Speaker 2: the young. So they're huge differences in these rankings across countries, 443 00:25:13,476 --> 00:25:16,476 Speaker 2: and in some cases where the young are doing very 444 00:25:16,476 --> 00:25:19,716 Speaker 2: well and the old not so well. It's because every 445 00:25:19,756 --> 00:25:22,916 Speaker 2: country is different in generational effects and so on. You 446 00:25:22,996 --> 00:25:27,036 Speaker 2: look at the older people in countries that are part 447 00:25:27,076 --> 00:25:31,116 Speaker 2: of the former Yugoslavia, where they were at each other's 448 00:25:31,196 --> 00:25:34,716 Speaker 2: throats literally in the nineteen nineties. The people who were 449 00:25:34,996 --> 00:25:38,876 Speaker 2: alive and seeing that as at Ultserce or older children 450 00:25:38,916 --> 00:25:43,196 Speaker 2: at that time, are now very unhappy. Still they're bearing 451 00:25:43,236 --> 00:25:47,596 Speaker 2: the scars of that. So trauma leaves its scars, and 452 00:25:47,636 --> 00:25:50,436 Speaker 2: so that's one of the reasons why the old have 453 00:25:50,596 --> 00:25:53,596 Speaker 2: not so quickly followed the young in some of those 454 00:25:53,676 --> 00:25:57,556 Speaker 2: countries in their higher well being. However, the young can 455 00:25:57,676 --> 00:26:03,156 Speaker 2: rise relative to the old in a newer refashioned world. 456 00:26:03,516 --> 00:26:06,836 Speaker 2: Is grounds for some optimism. Although it may not be 457 00:26:07,236 --> 00:26:11,636 Speaker 2: completely easy to pull people out and to expunge those 458 00:26:11,676 --> 00:26:15,596 Speaker 2: awful memories of the past, it's possible to create new 459 00:26:15,676 --> 00:26:19,156 Speaker 2: generations who are less burdened by that and help them 460 00:26:19,356 --> 00:26:22,476 Speaker 2: to form their positive connections with their neighbors and with 461 00:26:22,556 --> 00:26:23,036 Speaker 2: the world. 462 00:26:23,316 --> 00:26:25,596 Speaker 1: So as we walk through these six factors, you know, 463 00:26:25,676 --> 00:26:28,156 Speaker 1: again being from the US, my kind of US centric 464 00:26:28,276 --> 00:26:30,876 Speaker 1: version of this report, I'm curious which of those you 465 00:26:30,916 --> 00:26:33,236 Speaker 1: think were really going down in the case of the US, 466 00:26:33,316 --> 00:26:35,236 Speaker 1: Like over the last few years, what of those six 467 00:26:35,276 --> 00:26:37,316 Speaker 1: factors have changed in the US to kind of make 468 00:26:37,396 --> 00:26:39,836 Speaker 1: us drop so significantly in the rankings. 469 00:26:40,196 --> 00:26:44,356 Speaker 2: Well, my guess is that the social environment within which 470 00:26:44,556 --> 00:26:48,436 Speaker 2: people operate. I mean there have been drops in trust. 471 00:26:48,796 --> 00:26:52,356 Speaker 2: That's evident. It's not clear whether there have been drops 472 00:26:52,396 --> 00:26:56,236 Speaker 2: in social connections or not. There have probably been drops 473 00:26:56,316 --> 00:27:00,636 Speaker 2: in the warmth and trustworthiness of those social connections. We 474 00:27:00,756 --> 00:27:04,956 Speaker 2: have had chapters on the corrosive effects of the social 475 00:27:05,036 --> 00:27:09,396 Speaker 2: media use of certain types on young people. We have 476 00:27:09,476 --> 00:27:13,076 Speaker 2: a special chapter in this year's report on young people 477 00:27:13,156 --> 00:27:17,796 Speaker 2: per se finding that they're getting less happy once they 478 00:27:17,996 --> 00:27:21,316 Speaker 2: get into middle school and carry on right through into 479 00:27:21,476 --> 00:27:26,036 Speaker 2: their working careers. And some of that may be just 480 00:27:26,156 --> 00:27:29,476 Speaker 2: learning about life, and some of it may be that 481 00:27:30,556 --> 00:27:35,196 Speaker 2: the social media on average have not been so productive 482 00:27:35,236 --> 00:27:39,196 Speaker 2: of good relations that we know from other research lower 483 00:27:40,036 --> 00:27:45,396 Speaker 2: happiness levels. And there's an underlying negativity bias that humans have. 484 00:27:45,796 --> 00:27:49,436 Speaker 2: They react more sharply and quickly to negative news. If 485 00:27:49,476 --> 00:27:54,276 Speaker 2: you then combine that negativity bias with a huge increase 486 00:27:54,516 --> 00:27:58,356 Speaker 2: in the range of information sources that people have, then 487 00:27:59,076 --> 00:28:03,596 Speaker 2: they may well be deluged in negative information that drives 488 00:28:03,636 --> 00:28:07,036 Speaker 2: them a long way from reality. And we know that 489 00:28:07,276 --> 00:28:11,596 Speaker 2: from the wallet data exacs, because we know that it's 490 00:28:11,676 --> 00:28:15,156 Speaker 2: expected wallet return that makes you happy. But we also 491 00:28:15,276 --> 00:28:19,516 Speaker 2: know that people underestimate the likelihood of their wallet being returned, 492 00:28:19,516 --> 00:28:23,476 Speaker 2: which means that negative bias is very costly. So we're 493 00:28:23,596 --> 00:28:28,756 Speaker 2: needlessly unhappy because we don't understand that the people around 494 00:28:28,836 --> 00:28:31,236 Speaker 2: us are kinder and better than we think they are. 495 00:28:31,596 --> 00:28:34,076 Speaker 2: Because to walk down a street, as they do in 496 00:28:34,116 --> 00:28:38,596 Speaker 2: Helsinki and see someone on the street not as a danger, 497 00:28:39,116 --> 00:28:41,876 Speaker 2: not as a stranger, but a friend they haven't met yet, 498 00:28:42,436 --> 00:28:45,596 Speaker 2: and that's very important for your happiness to think you're 499 00:28:45,636 --> 00:28:49,236 Speaker 2: in that kind of environment. It's possible that what's going 500 00:28:49,316 --> 00:28:52,196 Speaker 2: on in the United States, and this is true in 501 00:28:52,516 --> 00:28:56,076 Speaker 2: Canadas too, and also it's got its echoes in Australia 502 00:28:56,116 --> 00:28:59,676 Speaker 2: and New Zealand, is that not only are more negative 503 00:28:59,756 --> 00:29:03,956 Speaker 2: news there, but the young people are in some sense 504 00:29:03,996 --> 00:29:08,316 Speaker 2: feeling guilty about it, whether it's the past treatments of minorities, 505 00:29:08,356 --> 00:29:14,156 Speaker 2: of pre colonial populations, treatment of the environment, any range 506 00:29:14,236 --> 00:29:18,556 Speaker 2: of issues. They're feeling that they're either the victims of 507 00:29:18,596 --> 00:29:22,836 Speaker 2: what others have done before them, or are carrying collectively 508 00:29:22,956 --> 00:29:25,876 Speaker 2: as a group, the guilt for producing these things. And 509 00:29:26,236 --> 00:29:29,316 Speaker 2: I suspect that's because those drops in the young people's 510 00:29:29,436 --> 00:29:33,956 Speaker 2: happiness are not global. They're fixed to the societies in 511 00:29:34,036 --> 00:29:37,796 Speaker 2: which the social media have been more dominant, which the 512 00:29:38,196 --> 00:29:43,356 Speaker 2: distribution of negative stories about the past and lack of 513 00:29:43,756 --> 00:29:47,836 Speaker 2: positive stories about the potential future have been more prevalent. 514 00:29:48,196 --> 00:29:51,196 Speaker 2: But my instinct is that those two things belong in 515 00:29:51,276 --> 00:29:54,956 Speaker 2: the same bag that in fact, it is this confluence 516 00:29:55,396 --> 00:29:58,756 Speaker 2: of based negative reporting and biased in the sense of 517 00:29:58,836 --> 00:30:02,316 Speaker 2: not reflecting the reality in which people are living, coupled 518 00:30:02,356 --> 00:30:06,596 Speaker 2: with people feeling that things are going badly in ways 519 00:30:06,676 --> 00:30:11,036 Speaker 2: that they don't see any easy way of fixing. We 520 00:30:11,156 --> 00:30:16,676 Speaker 2: know that natural disasters, although they're terrible, they offer immediately 521 00:30:16,796 --> 00:30:19,396 Speaker 2: for most people the chance to do something to help. 522 00:30:19,636 --> 00:30:23,116 Speaker 2: They rush in and help. People do want to help others, 523 00:30:23,396 --> 00:30:25,676 Speaker 2: But for some of these things that people are worrying 524 00:30:25,716 --> 00:30:29,276 Speaker 2: about now, they don't see any easy way of jumping 525 00:30:29,316 --> 00:30:33,196 Speaker 2: in and making a difference. And it's part of the 526 00:30:33,236 --> 00:30:36,676 Speaker 2: research that we report on in the world. Happiness support 527 00:30:37,156 --> 00:30:40,716 Speaker 2: is to help expose to people that the quality of 528 00:30:40,796 --> 00:30:44,996 Speaker 2: their own local social environment, which is so important, is 529 00:30:45,036 --> 00:30:48,516 Speaker 2: affected by their own behavior. So they should be going 530 00:30:48,556 --> 00:30:50,796 Speaker 2: out with a smile and a greeting and to help 531 00:30:50,836 --> 00:30:54,276 Speaker 2: other people and not presume the worst about them, but 532 00:30:54,396 --> 00:30:58,156 Speaker 2: in fact connect with them. For mutual advantage. Sometimes it 533 00:30:58,196 --> 00:31:00,276 Speaker 2: takes a little bit of a push to get people 534 00:31:00,276 --> 00:31:03,076 Speaker 2: to think in those positive terms, but there's a big payoff. 535 00:31:03,196 --> 00:31:04,716 Speaker 1: And so as I think about kind of some of 536 00:31:04,756 --> 00:31:07,356 Speaker 1: these factors kind of playing in together, if you were 537 00:31:07,396 --> 00:31:10,076 Speaker 1: going to create the sort of ideal country, right, you know, 538 00:31:10,156 --> 00:31:12,596 Speaker 1: kind of cherry picking bits that one country is doing 539 00:31:12,636 --> 00:31:15,076 Speaker 1: and kind of adding it to another country, what would 540 00:31:15,116 --> 00:31:17,596 Speaker 1: that kind of like ideal country look like like? What 541 00:31:17,636 --> 00:31:20,676 Speaker 1: would it really build into boost happiness as highly as possible. 542 00:31:21,796 --> 00:31:24,156 Speaker 2: That's a good one. One of the things we found 543 00:31:24,276 --> 00:31:27,196 Speaker 2: is that of those six factors we do measure, the 544 00:31:27,236 --> 00:31:30,396 Speaker 2: top countries all do well in all of them. You 545 00:31:30,436 --> 00:31:32,676 Speaker 2: can't do it on one thing. You can only do 546 00:31:32,756 --> 00:31:36,636 Speaker 2: it by having a full tapestry. I think the way 547 00:31:36,676 --> 00:31:38,476 Speaker 2: it could play out, you see, you don't want to 548 00:31:38,476 --> 00:31:41,396 Speaker 2: have an idea that there's a recipe for being a 549 00:31:41,556 --> 00:31:45,076 Speaker 2: really happy country. There are many recipes, but what has 550 00:31:45,156 --> 00:31:49,276 Speaker 2: to be true about a really happy country is that 551 00:31:49,356 --> 00:31:53,596 Speaker 2: people really do care about each other. They're characterized by equality, 552 00:31:53,956 --> 00:31:57,996 Speaker 2: and the equality that's really important is the equality of opportunity, 553 00:31:58,356 --> 00:32:03,796 Speaker 2: the equality of regard, the equality of acceptance, the equality 554 00:32:03,796 --> 00:32:07,396 Speaker 2: of access to basic services, We talked earlier about the 555 00:32:07,436 --> 00:32:11,156 Speaker 2: importance of income, but as important as the kind of 556 00:32:11,196 --> 00:32:14,076 Speaker 2: things you can buy with your own income, it's the 557 00:32:14,156 --> 00:32:17,676 Speaker 2: kind of things we provide for each other by way 558 00:32:17,756 --> 00:32:24,116 Speaker 2: of education, access, education, quality, healthcare, access, peace and freedom, 559 00:32:24,556 --> 00:32:28,876 Speaker 2: and a trustworthy local social environment. And some of that 560 00:32:28,956 --> 00:32:31,476 Speaker 2: can be fixed up by the neighbors and improved by 561 00:32:31,476 --> 00:32:35,236 Speaker 2: the neighbors. Some of it requires an add on of 562 00:32:35,436 --> 00:32:40,276 Speaker 2: national level institutions that permit people to connect rather than 563 00:32:40,476 --> 00:32:45,196 Speaker 2: be unconnected. If you wanted me to focus on something 564 00:32:45,276 --> 00:32:49,356 Speaker 2: that could be fixed in almost every country to make 565 00:32:49,396 --> 00:32:53,796 Speaker 2: it a better country is that over the last twenty years, 566 00:32:54,196 --> 00:32:59,156 Speaker 2: there's been a move driven by complaints of something going wrong, 567 00:32:59,316 --> 00:33:04,236 Speaker 2: somebody being molested, somebody being shot, and those things that 568 00:33:04,316 --> 00:33:07,676 Speaker 2: go wrong are what are reported in the news. So 569 00:33:07,756 --> 00:33:11,396 Speaker 2: then almost every organization now has a risk committee, and 570 00:33:11,476 --> 00:33:15,036 Speaker 2: the risk committee is designed to stop things going wrong. 571 00:33:15,596 --> 00:33:18,436 Speaker 2: And so they shut the kids off in schools with 572 00:33:18,596 --> 00:33:22,476 Speaker 2: locked doors, they shut people in elder care facilities behind 573 00:33:22,556 --> 00:33:26,276 Speaker 2: locked doors, and in the process, and this is true 574 00:33:26,316 --> 00:33:30,436 Speaker 2: of almost all experiments that are trying to make lives better, 575 00:33:30,796 --> 00:33:34,036 Speaker 2: that it's increasingly hard even to do the experiments we've 576 00:33:34,076 --> 00:33:38,156 Speaker 2: been running experiments mixing young children running a year of 577 00:33:38,236 --> 00:33:41,636 Speaker 2: their grade six education in the middle of a care 578 00:33:41,716 --> 00:33:45,756 Speaker 2: facility in Saskatoon, which breaks all the rules. You see, 579 00:33:46,156 --> 00:33:49,996 Speaker 2: the modern risk aversion culture doesn't make that possible. So 580 00:33:50,036 --> 00:33:53,236 Speaker 2: it takes a great deal of innovation and work even 581 00:33:53,276 --> 00:33:56,516 Speaker 2: to start an experiment like that. Well, once you see 582 00:33:56,556 --> 00:34:00,196 Speaker 2: those experiments in action, as we've done, even through COVID, 583 00:34:00,316 --> 00:34:03,916 Speaker 2: they've enriched the lives of the children, and clearly for 584 00:34:03,996 --> 00:34:06,476 Speaker 2: the elders who have a chance to pass on their 585 00:34:06,516 --> 00:34:09,836 Speaker 2: wisdom as well as echo the laughs of the children. 586 00:34:09,916 --> 00:34:12,916 Speaker 2: It gives them a reason for living, not what otherwise 587 00:34:13,196 --> 00:34:15,636 Speaker 2: might be on what they would see on their screens, 588 00:34:15,916 --> 00:34:20,876 Speaker 2: reasons for dying. So to open doors for connection rather 589 00:34:20,996 --> 00:34:26,436 Speaker 2: than closed doors for presumed safety is absolutely fundamental, and 590 00:34:26,516 --> 00:34:31,636 Speaker 2: I'm afraid in most institutions, in most countries, even the 591 00:34:31,676 --> 00:34:35,756 Speaker 2: top countries, it's going in the wrong direction. So the 592 00:34:36,156 --> 00:34:40,436 Speaker 2: risk prevention culture has to be entirely rethought because what 593 00:34:40,556 --> 00:34:44,236 Speaker 2: the world needs is more open doors, not more closed doors. 594 00:34:44,756 --> 00:34:47,516 Speaker 2: And so we have to permit people to meet un 595 00:34:47,516 --> 00:34:50,116 Speaker 2: till they meet and till they greet, until they learn 596 00:34:50,196 --> 00:34:53,716 Speaker 2: to trust. They won't learn common cause they won't turn 597 00:34:54,036 --> 00:34:58,636 Speaker 2: the me versus you into the bigger we and the US, 598 00:34:58,796 --> 00:35:03,076 Speaker 2: and that's what's critical in any successful society. So that's 599 00:35:03,076 --> 00:35:06,436 Speaker 2: something I think that is an agenda item for countries, 600 00:35:06,836 --> 00:35:10,716 Speaker 2: even if they're pretty well now in the rankings, that 601 00:35:10,756 --> 00:35:13,556 Speaker 2: they could be doing a better job at making sure 602 00:35:13,636 --> 00:35:16,796 Speaker 2: these connection doors are open and cherished. 603 00:35:16,916 --> 00:35:18,516 Speaker 1: I love this. It fits so much with some of 604 00:35:18,556 --> 00:35:20,236 Speaker 1: the work that we've talked about on the show with 605 00:35:20,436 --> 00:35:22,876 Speaker 1: Robert Putnam and others about the kind of importance of 606 00:35:23,196 --> 00:35:26,396 Speaker 1: building these opportunities for building more of the social capital too. 607 00:35:26,756 --> 00:35:29,076 Speaker 1: So I think sometimes when people see these rankings, especially 608 00:35:29,116 --> 00:35:31,156 Speaker 1: if you're from a country that's pretty low on the list, 609 00:35:31,196 --> 00:35:33,316 Speaker 1: it can feel, you know, kind of like a hit. 610 00:35:33,396 --> 00:35:35,516 Speaker 1: You know, it can feel a little depressing. Are there 611 00:35:35,516 --> 00:35:37,636 Speaker 1: things that countries that are lower on the list can 612 00:35:37,676 --> 00:35:39,796 Speaker 1: do to maybe boost their rankings? You know? Should you 613 00:35:39,836 --> 00:35:40,796 Speaker 1: feel so pessimistic? 614 00:35:41,036 --> 00:35:45,756 Speaker 2: Absolutely, some people say because they immigrants in Finland are 615 00:35:45,796 --> 00:35:49,276 Speaker 2: the happiest immigrants in the world, then everybody should move 616 00:35:49,316 --> 00:35:52,516 Speaker 2: to Helsinki. That's absolutely what it's not about in a way, 617 00:35:52,556 --> 00:35:55,836 Speaker 2: and sort of forget your ranking, but learn from the 618 00:35:55,956 --> 00:35:58,916 Speaker 2: report what makes for a good life, and so much 619 00:35:58,916 --> 00:36:02,156 Speaker 2: of it is so local, starting with your family, your friends, 620 00:36:02,236 --> 00:36:05,396 Speaker 2: your colleagues at work and school. You can change your 621 00:36:05,476 --> 00:36:08,996 Speaker 2: life in important ways, but the really important thing is 622 00:36:08,996 --> 00:36:11,836 Speaker 2: to change other people's lives. So if you reach out 623 00:36:11,836 --> 00:36:14,836 Speaker 2: to help others, that'll help you as well. But the 624 00:36:14,956 --> 00:36:19,636 Speaker 2: ripples of that, this spillover effects of positive actions, of 625 00:36:19,796 --> 00:36:24,916 Speaker 2: positive connections are very strong. If anything, they're stronger than 626 00:36:24,956 --> 00:36:28,196 Speaker 2: the negative ones. That's to be cherished. What that means 627 00:36:28,236 --> 00:36:31,956 Speaker 2: is everybody's got the option, both collectively as a country 628 00:36:31,956 --> 00:36:36,236 Speaker 2: and a government, but also individually, and so for people 629 00:36:36,276 --> 00:36:40,036 Speaker 2: who are pessimistic, they can't immediately turn around their main 630 00:36:40,076 --> 00:36:44,276 Speaker 2: government policies, but they can turn around their neighborhoods. They 631 00:36:44,316 --> 00:36:48,156 Speaker 2: can turn around what's going on in their workplace. They 632 00:36:48,236 --> 00:36:51,556 Speaker 2: can turn around what's going on in their school by thinking, 633 00:36:51,636 --> 00:36:56,636 Speaker 2: not complaining, not by making making angry demonstrations about something, 634 00:36:56,996 --> 00:37:00,316 Speaker 2: but by building common costs to find better ways of 635 00:37:00,356 --> 00:37:02,996 Speaker 2: doing things. So it's not about fighting, it's not about 636 00:37:03,036 --> 00:37:06,876 Speaker 2: demanding your rights. It's about working together with the others 637 00:37:06,876 --> 00:37:10,556 Speaker 2: you're living with in order to ver something better. And 638 00:37:10,636 --> 00:37:14,116 Speaker 2: that's always an option. We see it after natural disasters. 639 00:37:14,316 --> 00:37:17,636 Speaker 2: Why can't we see it after other less damaging but 640 00:37:17,756 --> 00:37:19,196 Speaker 2: perhaps more corrosive things. 641 00:37:20,036 --> 00:37:22,196 Speaker 1: What a great message of hope to end on. No 642 00:37:22,236 --> 00:37:25,276 Speaker 1: matter where your country is on the World Happiness Report rankings, 643 00:37:25,476 --> 00:37:27,756 Speaker 1: you can still do something in your home, or on 644 00:37:27,796 --> 00:37:30,316 Speaker 1: your street, or in your workplace to help move your 645 00:37:30,356 --> 00:37:33,676 Speaker 1: fellow citizens up the happiness chart. John and I have 646 00:37:33,716 --> 00:37:36,916 Speaker 1: already talked about the generational splits his team has observed 647 00:37:36,916 --> 00:37:39,996 Speaker 1: in country level rankings, but this year's report devotes a 648 00:37:40,036 --> 00:37:43,356 Speaker 1: lot of time to age differences in happiness. In fact, 649 00:37:43,516 --> 00:37:45,716 Speaker 1: there are whole chapters on well being trends in the 650 00:37:45,796 --> 00:37:48,796 Speaker 1: young and the old this year, and so those are 651 00:37:48,836 --> 00:37:51,756 Speaker 1: the two challenges we'll be tackling next in this special 652 00:37:51,796 --> 00:37:55,356 Speaker 1: season about the World Happiness Report on the Happiness Lab 653 00:37:55,476 --> 00:37:57,196 Speaker 1: with me Doctor Lauriy Santos