WEBVTT - A Rollback Extravaganza 0:00:00.080 --> 0:00:02.520 I miss a green, for example, I'm already upset. 0:00:02.640 --> 0:00:04.920 When I find my ball in the bunker, I'm really upset. 0:00:05.040 --> 0:00:06.280 And when I find my ball in. 0:00:06.240 --> 0:00:11.480 A brid egg Frida egg, Frida egg, Frida eggag bride 0:00:11.480 --> 0:00:12.080 egg lie. 0:00:11.920 --> 0:00:35.280 I'm about ready to run off the golf. Welcome back 0:00:35.320 --> 0:00:40.240 to another edition of the Frida Egg Podcast. Today's episode 0:00:40.400 --> 0:00:43.480 is a big one, obviously, if you have not heard, 0:00:43.680 --> 0:00:47.000 the U s g A and the RNA has released 0:00:47.200 --> 0:00:51.080 news about a potential new golf ball that would be 0:00:51.200 --> 0:00:55.280 used by high level tournament players men's high level tournament players. 0:00:55.520 --> 0:00:58.200 So we break this down. This has obviously been a 0:00:58.320 --> 0:01:02.120 long process. We've had number of podcasts about the prospect 0:01:02.200 --> 0:01:05.560 of this and they've moved to the next kind of 0:01:05.800 --> 0:01:08.720 chapter of it. So for this pod, we did something 0:01:09.480 --> 0:01:13.840 a little special. I wanted to get a variety of 0:01:14.000 --> 0:01:19.360 insights from a different angles of who this would impact. 0:01:19.560 --> 0:01:23.560 So for this podcast, I talked with Tom Doak about 0:01:23.720 --> 0:01:28.040 the architecture angle. I talked with Roberto Castro, a retired 0:01:28.080 --> 0:01:32.320 PGA Tour player, about how this would impact the PGA 0:01:32.440 --> 0:01:37.000 Tour and PGA Tour players, and then I also spoke 0:01:37.319 --> 0:01:42.840 with Joseph LaMagna about the impact on golf course strategy. 0:01:42.920 --> 0:01:47.000 He obviously contributes for the Frieda Egg, writes in Club 0:01:47.040 --> 0:01:49.840 TF and in the newsletter, as well as appears on 0:01:49.880 --> 0:01:53.240 the podcast pretty regularly. He does on the side, he 0:01:53.280 --> 0:01:57.040 also does consulting for PGA Tour players where he helps 0:01:57.080 --> 0:02:01.160 them break down strategy. So we talked about that, and 0:02:01.200 --> 0:02:04.160 then Garrett and I are going to be on this 0:02:04.200 --> 0:02:07.040 podcast in a minute here kind of just talking about 0:02:07.040 --> 0:02:10.960 the basics of it and our general takes. So you're 0:02:11.000 --> 0:02:13.680 gonna get a lot of different perspectives in this podcast 0:02:14.200 --> 0:02:17.600 on different angles of it. It's obviously a massive topic 0:02:18.600 --> 0:02:22.519 and will impact the game. Really, you know, I think 0:02:22.919 --> 0:02:25.200 this is the way a lot of regulation works. Like 0:02:25.280 --> 0:02:28.560 you implement it and you're not really sure you know 0:02:29.000 --> 0:02:31.240 one thing that is going to address, but it causes 0:02:31.280 --> 0:02:34.040 a lot of different ripples throughout the industry. So that's 0:02:34.080 --> 0:02:36.520 what we tried to do with this podcast was give 0:02:36.560 --> 0:02:38.880 you a little bit of an encompassing look at how 0:02:38.919 --> 0:02:43.400 it impacts, you know, directly impacts a few big things. 0:02:43.880 --> 0:02:49.480 So excited that this happened. As a quick reminder, you know, 0:02:49.600 --> 0:02:53.040 one of the things if you're a Frida Egg newsletter subscriber, 0:02:53.120 --> 0:02:56.000 you saw this week was that we have a whole 0:02:56.040 --> 0:02:58.600 new spring line in the Pro Shop. If you want 0:02:58.639 --> 0:03:01.000 to support the Frida Egg, this great way to do it. 0:03:01.440 --> 0:03:05.160 Meg Atkins has really got some great stuff. She did 0:03:05.200 --> 0:03:09.440 an awesome job stocking the shop. I myself had to 0:03:09.480 --> 0:03:12.079 ask ask for a couple of things because they really 0:03:12.160 --> 0:03:14.920 caught my eye. I thought they're awesome and some of 0:03:14.919 --> 0:03:17.400 the best stuff that we've ever had in the pro Shop. 0:03:17.639 --> 0:03:19.640 If you want to check that out, it's pro Shop 0:03:19.760 --> 0:03:24.119 dot Thefrida Egg dot com. Lots of hats, layers, some 0:03:24.200 --> 0:03:28.519 new golf shirts, some stuff that's geared towards the first 0:03:28.560 --> 0:03:31.880 major for both the Frida Egg and the Shotgun Start, 0:03:31.919 --> 0:03:36.280 which if you're looking for more on this potential rollback 0:03:36.360 --> 0:03:40.400 for the for the tour professionals, check out the Shotgun Start. 0:03:40.400 --> 0:03:43.360 We had a long discussion about that as well as 0:03:43.360 --> 0:03:47.280 this podcast that you're already listening to. So without further ado, 0:03:47.560 --> 0:03:51.280 here is the podcast all about rollback again. Here's me 0:03:51.400 --> 0:03:54.320 and Garrett and then it will be followed by Tom Doak, 0:03:54.920 --> 0:03:59.880 Joseph Lamannia and Roberto Castro. Thank you and here you 0:04:00.120 --> 0:04:05.960 got all right, Garrett, Big big golf news this week 0:04:06.040 --> 0:04:10.800 obviously the UH, the golf world has quickly divided itself 0:04:10.840 --> 0:04:12.000 into different camps. 0:04:12.200 --> 0:04:13.800 I think there's a lot of people in the middle 0:04:13.840 --> 0:04:17.719 that are just the silent, silent middle class. 0:04:18.520 --> 0:04:20.800 And enjoying the fight, watching the fight. 0:04:21.240 --> 0:04:26.040 Yes, I would. I'd love to hear kind of your 0:04:26.120 --> 0:04:30.719 top level thoughts about the USGA's announcement UH with the 0:04:31.200 --> 0:04:35.080 with the regulations to the potential regulations the ball. Really 0:04:35.120 --> 0:04:39.800 they're in a comment period, so the regulations the ball are, 0:04:40.080 --> 0:04:43.680 you know, they're kind of collecting feedback and you know, 0:04:43.760 --> 0:04:46.479 we'll see, we'll learn more later this fall. 0:04:47.400 --> 0:04:50.080 Let me try to lay things out here. I think 0:04:50.120 --> 0:04:52.960 people should know first of all, what a model local 0:04:53.080 --> 0:04:57.000 rule is, because that is the key to this whole 0:04:57.040 --> 0:05:02.360 discussion and to analyzing the entire situation. So a model 0:05:02.440 --> 0:05:06.279 local rule is optional. The USGA is going to create 0:05:06.320 --> 0:05:11.080 this rule, put it out there, and different organizations, tours, 0:05:11.760 --> 0:05:14.920 different entities in the golf world can adopt it if 0:05:14.920 --> 0:05:18.960 they want to. And this model local rule will essentially give, 0:05:19.360 --> 0:05:23.040 as the USGA puts it, give competition organizers the option 0:05:23.200 --> 0:05:26.640 to require use of golf balls that are tested under 0:05:26.680 --> 0:05:30.560 modified launch conditions to address the impacts of hitting distance 0:05:30.680 --> 0:05:34.600 in golf, and this golf ball would be essentially tested 0:05:34.640 --> 0:05:37.839 at a higher club head speed then balls are currently 0:05:37.880 --> 0:05:41.440 tested at and will have to go the same distance, 0:05:41.600 --> 0:05:46.520 so the ball will fly shorter than the current ball. 0:05:47.080 --> 0:05:50.760 And one quick thing here that this is very important 0:05:50.760 --> 0:05:54.600 for everybody to understand. The longer players are still going 0:05:54.640 --> 0:05:57.359 to be longer. The shorter players are still going to 0:05:57.360 --> 0:06:01.279 be shorter. So it does not move. It does not 0:06:01.400 --> 0:06:05.520 remove somebody from swinging higher than the testing speed at 0:06:05.560 --> 0:06:08.680 one twenty seven and hitting it further than their three 0:06:08.720 --> 0:06:12.080 hundred and seventeen yards. If you swing at one thirty five, 0:06:12.279 --> 0:06:15.160 it will go further than the high end of their 0:06:15.200 --> 0:06:16.120 testing range. 0:06:16.320 --> 0:06:16.880 That's right. 0:06:17.120 --> 0:06:20.359 So it's important to understand that there's not there's not 0:06:20.480 --> 0:06:23.240 like a ceiling on how far you can hit the 0:06:23.240 --> 0:06:23.760 golf ball. 0:06:24.120 --> 0:06:26.240 They are just it's not going to hit an invisible 0:06:26.320 --> 0:06:28.920 wall at three hundred and seventeen yards and drop out 0:06:28.920 --> 0:06:30.080 of the air exactly. 0:06:30.240 --> 0:06:32.640 So it is a it is that's just what it's 0:06:32.680 --> 0:06:36.800 being test at, tested at, which then scales all the 0:06:36.880 --> 0:06:42.040 distances down roughly between five and ten percent. 0:06:42.160 --> 0:06:44.760 Right, And so what the USGA is saying is that 0:06:45.320 --> 0:06:49.320 the longest players will lose fourteen to fifteen yards in 0:06:49.400 --> 0:06:53.960 driving distance. Now there's been some dispute over that. Some 0:06:54.000 --> 0:06:56.880 people are saying it might be more like twenty yards, 0:06:57.120 --> 0:07:00.719 but we don't really know yet until we see the ball, 0:07:01.000 --> 0:07:06.320 and this model local rule won't be available until January first, 0:07:06.440 --> 0:07:10.160 twenty twenty six at the earliest, so we've got some 0:07:10.320 --> 0:07:13.200 time here. But I just wanted to clarify that upfront 0:07:13.200 --> 0:07:17.280 because I've been tracking the discussion in a number of 0:07:17.280 --> 0:07:21.280 different venues and I feel like a misunderstanding of the 0:07:21.280 --> 0:07:24.280 model local rule and how it actually operates is at 0:07:24.320 --> 0:07:26.880 the core of a lot of people's concerns about this. 0:07:27.600 --> 0:07:32.600 Because it really doesn't need to affect any particular organization 0:07:33.280 --> 0:07:35.720 that doesn't want to buy into it. The USGA and 0:07:35.800 --> 0:07:39.440 RNA have passed the buck to other entities in the 0:07:39.480 --> 0:07:42.760 golf world and said, if you want, for whatever reason 0:07:43.200 --> 0:07:46.679 to adopt a reduced flight ball, then you can start 0:07:46.680 --> 0:07:49.880 to do that using this model local rule. Now, I 0:07:49.920 --> 0:07:53.040 think that their play is more complicated than that, and 0:07:53.080 --> 0:07:54.520 that's kind of what I want to get into. Do 0:07:54.560 --> 0:07:57.160 you want to get into that, like the kind of 0:07:56.760 --> 0:08:00.440 the strategy that's probably being used by the governing bodies here. 0:08:00.960 --> 0:08:04.800 Yeah, absolutely, I think you know, from my perspective, this 0:08:04.880 --> 0:08:10.600 is this was strategically the correct play for the USGA. 0:08:10.720 --> 0:08:11.440 They are the. 0:08:11.360 --> 0:08:14.520 Governing body they aren't in the USGA are the governing 0:08:14.560 --> 0:08:17.080 bodies of the game of golf. But they also do 0:08:17.160 --> 0:08:20.720 a lot more than governess. And I think that's where 0:08:20.840 --> 0:08:23.240 it was tricky. Like if the only thing they did 0:08:23.520 --> 0:08:27.560 was was create rules and protect the game, you know, 0:08:28.160 --> 0:08:30.560 I think we would have had something in place a 0:08:30.600 --> 0:08:33.520 long time ago. But you know, the tricky thing with 0:08:33.559 --> 0:08:36.400 the USBA as they've grown as an organization is they 0:08:36.440 --> 0:08:38.880 do a lot more and they you know, I think 0:08:38.880 --> 0:08:41.680 they are I hate the word grow the game, but 0:08:41.760 --> 0:08:45.000 they are vitally involved with growing the game of golf. 0:08:45.120 --> 0:08:47.920 And I think you know, from this standpoint, when you 0:08:47.960 --> 0:08:53.080 look at the rule, the idea of it applying a 0:08:53.120 --> 0:08:56.000 model local rule that can be applied to the high 0:08:56.400 --> 0:09:01.600 end of golf, that is an attempt to not have 0:09:01.720 --> 0:09:05.920 the pr hit of like you're trying to make golf harder. 0:09:06.880 --> 0:09:10.200 If you went with a ruling that said we're gonna take, 0:09:10.920 --> 0:09:13.960 we're gonna make we're gonna take yardage away from everybody, 0:09:14.040 --> 0:09:17.000 there would be a lot of backlash of like, wait, 0:09:17.280 --> 0:09:19.520 golf's having this moment, and you're gonna make it harder, 0:09:19.880 --> 0:09:23.840 even though I don't even believe that it would be 0:09:23.960 --> 0:09:27.480 harder if you if everybody played this equipment, I don't 0:09:27.520 --> 0:09:29.280 think if you if if. 0:09:29.120 --> 0:09:32.280 Just find the right t's, chill out, find the right teas, 0:09:32.559 --> 0:09:35.480 it wouldn't be that much harder. And most amateurs if 0:09:35.480 --> 0:09:37.720 they played a reduced flight ball, if you just like 0:09:37.840 --> 0:09:40.880 snuck one into their bag in place of the pro 0:09:41.000 --> 0:09:43.400 v one x or whatever they have in there and 0:09:43.520 --> 0:09:46.199 had them play it, I bet they'd play. Most amateurs 0:09:46.200 --> 0:09:48.680 would play eighteen holes and not even notice a difference. 0:09:48.960 --> 0:09:53.160 So at the core of this, I think the the 0:09:53.400 --> 0:09:57.640 choice to make it a what people are calling bifurcation, 0:09:57.880 --> 0:10:01.319 which is the model local rule. So you could theoretically 0:10:01.760 --> 0:10:05.199 all of men's professional golf, and theoretically is an important 0:10:05.320 --> 0:10:08.240 title here because we don't know if the PGA Tour 0:10:08.320 --> 0:10:11.920 or the PGA Championship will accept this. But like, theoretically 0:10:12.480 --> 0:10:15.559 all of men's professional golf can play a different ball 0:10:15.800 --> 0:10:21.120 than the regular, you know golfer, the weekend golfer, and 0:10:21.520 --> 0:10:26.440 they from a marketing standpoint, are not taking away things 0:10:26.480 --> 0:10:29.680 from the person that needs all the help they can get. 0:10:29.920 --> 0:10:33.720 What they are trying to do is really you know, 0:10:34.000 --> 0:10:38.120 what this all is about, for the most part, is 0:10:38.200 --> 0:10:41.880 professional golf. But I don't agree that it's just a 0:10:41.920 --> 0:10:45.240 professional golf problem. I think this is a problem across. 0:10:44.800 --> 0:10:47.840 Golf, and I think that the governing bodies acknowledge that. 0:10:48.080 --> 0:10:51.400 And that is the complexity here that I'd like to 0:10:51.400 --> 0:10:56.600 get into is the governing body's awareness that distance gains 0:10:56.640 --> 0:10:59.920 are a problem not just at the elite competitive level, 0:11:00.440 --> 0:11:04.040 but all over the place in golf. Regular local courses 0:11:04.120 --> 0:11:07.600 have had to lengthen over the past several decades because 0:11:07.600 --> 0:11:11.640 everybody has gained distance, and especially like the top five 0:11:11.720 --> 0:11:15.679 percent of the longest amateur players have gained just as 0:11:15.760 --> 0:11:18.320 much distance as the pros have. Right, if you have 0:11:18.920 --> 0:11:21.240 one hundred and fifteen miles per hour of clubhead speed, 0:11:21.960 --> 0:11:24.000 you can be a five handicap. I've played with five 0:11:24.000 --> 0:11:27.600 handicaps who have that much clubhead speed, and you're going 0:11:27.640 --> 0:11:29.520 to be hitting it just as far as the pros do. 0:11:29.920 --> 0:11:32.840 You might not know where it's going. But they're a 0:11:32.880 --> 0:11:36.280 problem at normal courses as well. And you know what, 0:11:36.400 --> 0:11:37.920 the USGA and R and I have done a lot 0:11:38.000 --> 0:11:41.359 of research in the past several years looking into exactly 0:11:41.840 --> 0:11:45.280 that problem, and so I think the intention here is 0:11:45.320 --> 0:11:49.720 eventually to have an effect beyond the elite competitive level. 0:11:50.200 --> 0:11:53.440 But I want to get into the strategic and pr 0:11:53.520 --> 0:11:56.960 play that they're doing here, because you're right that a 0:11:57.040 --> 0:12:01.200 big thing that Mike Wan and Martin Slumber, the CEOs 0:12:01.320 --> 0:12:04.800 of the USGA and the RNA, are saying right now 0:12:05.440 --> 0:12:08.559 is that this will not affect the recreational golf level. 0:12:08.960 --> 0:12:11.839 We've gotten feedback in the past year that nobody wants 0:12:11.840 --> 0:12:15.200 the recreational game to be negatively affected, and so this rule, 0:12:15.240 --> 0:12:19.599 this model local rule, is intended for high level competitions. 0:12:20.120 --> 0:12:23.120 That is what they're saying right now. But that goes 0:12:23.240 --> 0:12:26.640 against the research that they've done recently, that they've spent 0:12:26.760 --> 0:12:30.600 a lot of money doing discovering that the distance problem 0:12:30.600 --> 0:12:33.920 in golf is not just a professional golf problem, it's 0:12:33.960 --> 0:12:37.760 not just a PGA tour problem. It is a problem 0:12:38.040 --> 0:12:40.040 all over the place, and it's an issue for the 0:12:40.040 --> 0:12:43.160 sustainability of the game. And so I think that what 0:12:43.360 --> 0:12:47.240 they're trying to do here is introduce this model local 0:12:47.320 --> 0:12:51.280 rule to some championships like the US Open and the Open. 0:12:52.200 --> 0:12:54.520 I think they probably figure that the Masters is going 0:12:54.559 --> 0:12:57.719 to implement the ball because Augusta National Golf Club has 0:12:57.760 --> 0:13:00.920 been you know, has had to spend a lot of 0:13:00.960 --> 0:13:04.880 money expanding its course, and its leaders do seem open 0:13:05.440 --> 0:13:08.200 to implementing a new ball. And so that's three majors 0:13:08.280 --> 0:13:12.280 right there. That's three very powerful tournaments in golf. And 0:13:12.360 --> 0:13:15.040 so if they adopt the model local rule, is that 0:13:15.120 --> 0:13:18.600 going to have a kind of trickle down effect throughout 0:13:18.600 --> 0:13:23.720 the game where different tours, including the PGA Tour, as 0:13:23.760 --> 0:13:28.640 well as other institutions like state championships, like various amateur 0:13:28.720 --> 0:13:33.319 championships like the NCAA, like your local club championship. Is 0:13:33.360 --> 0:13:36.120 there going to be a trickle down effect where all 0:13:36.200 --> 0:13:41.360 of those different kinds of tournaments and competitive environments will say, well, 0:13:42.160 --> 0:13:44.440 you know, three of the biggest tournaments in golf are 0:13:44.520 --> 0:13:47.480 using the model local rule ball. So I guess we better. 0:13:48.480 --> 0:13:50.440 You know, if you want to qualify for the US Open, 0:13:50.480 --> 0:13:52.600 if you want to go to your local qualifier and 0:13:52.679 --> 0:13:54.880 try to get into the US Open, you've got to 0:13:54.920 --> 0:13:58.480 learn how to use the reduced flight ball. So I 0:13:58.520 --> 0:14:01.280 guess we might as well start playing ball at the 0:14:01.320 --> 0:14:04.360 local level at our courses and I think that their 0:14:04.440 --> 0:14:08.560 hope is that this ball will eventually make its way 0:14:08.640 --> 0:14:12.480 into the recreational game that we play on an everyday basis, 0:14:12.880 --> 0:14:15.240 but they can't say that because people are scared of that. 0:14:15.920 --> 0:14:18.840 Yeah, I think you hit on exactly what I've been 0:14:18.880 --> 0:14:23.600 thinking about the last twenty four hours and why this 0:14:24.000 --> 0:14:27.520 was the right way to approach this, because you know, 0:14:27.800 --> 0:14:30.320 we talked about like the marketing headache, but when I 0:14:30.360 --> 0:14:35.240 think about how this could infiltrate the overarching game, it 0:14:35.360 --> 0:14:39.120 is through the competitive golf landscape at the amateur level. 0:14:39.520 --> 0:14:42.760 So you know, the idea of you know, I used 0:14:42.760 --> 0:14:46.080 to play competitive golf. I haven't in the last five 0:14:46.160 --> 0:14:49.280 years because I've been busy. But you know, the thing 0:14:49.360 --> 0:14:52.680 about it is like what you play that competitive golf 0:14:52.720 --> 0:14:54.800 at a state level, and this is like as a 0:14:54.880 --> 0:14:57.920 mid am, right, is like I would play it. I 0:14:58.080 --> 0:15:00.720 try and play the US Open, I try and play 0:15:00.760 --> 0:15:03.200 the US AM, I try and play the US Midam. 0:15:03.320 --> 0:15:06.280 It sounds like their goal is to have this ball 0:15:06.360 --> 0:15:09.240 be used at the US Midam. So all of a sudden, 0:15:09.800 --> 0:15:12.480 you know, I'm one of the best players at a club, 0:15:13.400 --> 0:15:16.640 I am going to be probably using this ball predominantly 0:15:16.920 --> 0:15:19.360 this is the ball that I'm going to use, and 0:15:19.360 --> 0:15:21.960 that's going to have a trickle down effect into the 0:15:22.000 --> 0:15:24.880 group that I'm playing with, and that's going to just 0:15:24.920 --> 0:15:28.000 continue to push out. The same thing goes for like 0:15:28.520 --> 0:15:31.600 if you have a kid that's a growing, that's a golfer, 0:15:31.680 --> 0:15:34.800 that's you know, that's really good, they're aspiring to play 0:15:34.800 --> 0:15:37.320 the US Junior. It sounds like this is going to 0:15:37.360 --> 0:15:40.760 be tied into the US Junior. Maybe not the first year, 0:15:41.000 --> 0:15:44.120 but quickly after. So if your kids wants to play 0:15:44.120 --> 0:15:46.760 the US Junior, that's the pinnacle of golf. Like the 0:15:46.800 --> 0:15:49.960 Western Junior, the US Junior, those are the pinnacles of 0:15:50.040 --> 0:15:52.680 junior golf. You know what's probably going to be The 0:15:52.720 --> 0:15:55.760 Western Golf Association is probably going to follow the USGA. 0:15:55.840 --> 0:16:00.000 You know, they're historic organizations. So all of a sudden, 0:16:00.080 --> 0:16:02.080 if your kid wants to, you know, compete at the 0:16:02.160 --> 0:16:05.040 highest level, they're going to start to use this golf 0:16:05.080 --> 0:16:07.080 ball and so on and so forth. 0:16:07.160 --> 0:16:10.720 The amateur level. The same thing. Now where I find 0:16:10.960 --> 0:16:13.280 where all this the wrench comes. 0:16:13.040 --> 0:16:15.920 In is if the tour says we are not doing that, 0:16:16.400 --> 0:16:20.480 and I think that that that is a it's it's 0:16:20.480 --> 0:16:22.440 interesting they obviously have the power to do it. 0:16:22.600 --> 0:16:26.040 But the thing about it is, I think it's a. 0:16:25.880 --> 0:16:29.480 Really bad marketing play by them if they do it, 0:16:30.200 --> 0:16:35.280 because it's saying, hey, we don't want to play these rules. 0:16:35.360 --> 0:16:39.840 We'd prefer to have the game dulled down, especially, you know, 0:16:39.960 --> 0:16:44.040 it would be super weird after we watch people play 0:16:44.080 --> 0:16:47.280 Augusta National and have to hit a wide ray shots 0:16:47.800 --> 0:16:50.920 and even accentuate the product difference that we see, Like 0:16:50.960 --> 0:16:53.520 we watch Augustin and it's like, God, I wish every 0:16:53.520 --> 0:16:56.400 week of golf was like this, and then have that 0:16:56.480 --> 0:16:59.080 accentuated by like, oh, we're gonna see these guys hit 0:16:59.160 --> 0:17:01.360 more shots and the best golf course and the way 0:17:01.480 --> 0:17:03.880 you know that they play year in, year out, and 0:17:03.920 --> 0:17:06.160 then they're going to go to Harbortown, a tiny little 0:17:06.240 --> 0:17:07.960 course with a souped up golf ball. 0:17:08.520 --> 0:17:09.840 It's going to further. 0:17:10.000 --> 0:17:12.760 Like there's a running joke that the tour is almost 0:17:12.800 --> 0:17:17.199 like WWE is to wrestling as to what major championship 0:17:17.200 --> 0:17:20.800 golf is with like the TiO relief, they get the 0:17:20.800 --> 0:17:24.720 favorable rulings, the lift clean in place, if they refuse 0:17:24.760 --> 0:17:28.400 to accept the equipment stuff, it's just going to accentuate 0:17:28.480 --> 0:17:31.879 that fact that, like you know, the PGA Tour doesn't 0:17:31.880 --> 0:17:33.880 play the same golf that you play. 0:17:33.920 --> 0:17:35.720 And I don't think the players are going to want 0:17:35.720 --> 0:17:37.919 to go back and forth the play. What do the 0:17:37.920 --> 0:17:40.120 players on the PGA Tour care about. They care about 0:17:40.119 --> 0:17:44.399 the majors. Specifically, they care about the Masters, the US Open, 0:17:44.760 --> 0:17:48.040 and the Open Championship. Those are the three tournaments they 0:17:48.080 --> 0:17:51.560 care the most about. The PGA Championship, we don't really 0:17:51.640 --> 0:17:53.520 know what's going on with PGA of America, but we've 0:17:53.560 --> 0:17:57.280 heard rumblings that they're not stoked about the model local rule. 0:17:57.880 --> 0:18:00.119 But I think that the Masters, the US Open, and 0:18:00.160 --> 0:18:02.600 in the Open hold a lot of cards here and 0:18:02.640 --> 0:18:04.399 that what we see is a bit of a game 0:18:04.400 --> 0:18:07.480 of chicken going on between the PGA Tour and those 0:18:07.480 --> 0:18:10.680 three majors, because I think that the PGA Tour knows 0:18:11.600 --> 0:18:15.719 that if the top three majors implement this ball, that 0:18:15.720 --> 0:18:18.480 they're probably going to have to follow suit. I think 0:18:18.520 --> 0:18:21.240 that they know that they don't quite have the clout 0:18:21.400 --> 0:18:23.760 to stand up against those three majors and say to 0:18:23.800 --> 0:18:26.360 the players, you have to play one ball on our tour, 0:18:26.440 --> 0:18:28.280 or you get to play one ball on our tour 0:18:28.680 --> 0:18:30.320 and then you're going to have to switch for the 0:18:30.320 --> 0:18:33.360 most important tournaments of the year. I honestly don't think 0:18:33.359 --> 0:18:35.479 that most players are going to go for that, and 0:18:35.560 --> 0:18:38.320 that what most players would want is for the PGA 0:18:38.400 --> 0:18:42.080 Tour to pressure the USGA and RNA in this comment 0:18:42.160 --> 0:18:45.320 period to drop this idea. I think that's why you're 0:18:45.320 --> 0:18:48.480 seeing so many tour players come out so strongly against it. 0:18:48.640 --> 0:18:51.919 Right We've seen Justin Thomas speak out, We've seen Keegan 0:18:52.000 --> 0:18:55.399 Bradley open his mouth, We've seen Charlie Hoffman go on 0:18:55.480 --> 0:18:58.240 PGA Tour Radio. We've seen a lot of guys come 0:18:58.240 --> 0:19:02.159 out really aggressively against this, and I think the reason 0:19:02.200 --> 0:19:05.640 for that is that their preferred situation would be if 0:19:05.640 --> 0:19:08.280 this idea just went away. But I don't think it's 0:19:08.280 --> 0:19:10.399 going to go away. And I think that once the 0:19:10.440 --> 0:19:14.320 most important major start to use this model local rule, 0:19:14.720 --> 0:19:16.119 that the PGA Tour is going to be in a 0:19:16.119 --> 0:19:19.240 really tough spot because it's going to seem like they're 0:19:19.280 --> 0:19:22.080 not playing real golf and their players are not going 0:19:22.160 --> 0:19:24.480 to want to switch back and forth and you know, 0:19:24.560 --> 0:19:28.200 play a ball that they're not used to for their 0:19:28.280 --> 0:19:30.359 most important events of the year. 0:19:31.000 --> 0:19:32.800 I you know, and This is the thing is, I 0:19:32.840 --> 0:19:35.080 don't think it's going to be that big of an adjustment. 0:19:35.280 --> 0:19:38.679 Everybody's kicking and screaming right now about it, but the 0:19:38.840 --> 0:19:41.240 reality is is like it's going to be a little 0:19:41.240 --> 0:19:43.440 bit of adjustment. But they aren't taking They aren't changing 0:19:43.480 --> 0:19:45.600 all the clubs either, you know, like and I think 0:19:45.640 --> 0:19:47.240 that's like one of the things if we wanted to 0:19:47.280 --> 0:19:50.080 talk about what we wish they would have done, and 0:19:50.160 --> 0:19:52.560 I understand why they couldn't get there, and maybe this 0:19:52.640 --> 0:19:56.800 is the first regulation that pushes the ability to say, hey, 0:19:57.080 --> 0:19:59.960 this isn't all that bad that we change. But you know, 0:20:00.040 --> 0:20:02.280 so the one thing with the tour is if they 0:20:02.320 --> 0:20:05.639 go to this, if they stick with their ball and 0:20:05.680 --> 0:20:08.080 they don't go to this, like who's going to play 0:20:08.119 --> 0:20:11.840 the week before the Masters, Who's who is? Those tournaments 0:20:11.880 --> 0:20:14.280 are just going to be wiped off the schedule, right, 0:20:14.720 --> 0:20:17.560 Like nobody's playing the week before the Masters or the 0:20:17.920 --> 0:20:19.920 or the week before the US Open or the week 0:20:19.960 --> 0:20:24.200 before the Open and not playing with the tournament ball. 0:20:24.520 --> 0:20:27.440 Right, Yeah, they're they're they're gonna have at least I mean, yes, 0:20:27.440 --> 0:20:29.679 they're the best players in the world. They should be 0:20:29.720 --> 0:20:32.920 able to make this adjustment. But if they're going back 0:20:32.920 --> 0:20:35.280 and forth, they'll need a little bit of time to 0:20:35.359 --> 0:20:38.640 dial things in and get their yardages and and make 0:20:38.640 --> 0:20:43.080 sure that everything's, you know, in line for a big, 0:20:43.119 --> 0:20:46.320 important tournament. I think you're right that the week before 0:20:46.320 --> 0:20:48.760 a major, if they have to adjust to a different ball, 0:20:49.160 --> 0:20:52.400 they're probably gonna have to spend some time optimizing that ball. 0:20:53.080 --> 0:20:56.639 I think we both agree that this politically was a 0:20:56.840 --> 0:21:00.280 smart and strategically a pretty smart move by the by 0:21:00.280 --> 0:21:03.120 the usg the way they've rolled this out, I think 0:21:03.160 --> 0:21:06.040 that I would say that, if I summed up, both 0:21:06.080 --> 0:21:09.479 of us were a little disappointed, Like in an ideal world, 0:21:09.880 --> 0:21:11.720 you'd see this across all of golf. 0:21:12.880 --> 0:21:16.640 Well, I mean that was my first reaction. I wish 0:21:16.720 --> 0:21:19.320 this were a universal rollback, and I still feel that way, 0:21:19.880 --> 0:21:22.720 But I understand the political maneuver a little bit better 0:21:22.800 --> 0:21:26.320 now than I did when the announcement was made. But 0:21:26.880 --> 0:21:29.640 you know, a year ago, they were looking at doing 0:21:29.640 --> 0:21:32.359 a model local role for the driver and doing a 0:21:32.440 --> 0:21:35.320 universal rollback for the ball, and I'm a little bit 0:21:35.320 --> 0:21:39.359 disappointed that that hasn't stayed that way, that we're no 0:21:39.440 --> 0:21:42.600 longer looking at the driver and that we're no longer 0:21:42.640 --> 0:21:44.920 looking at the idea of a universal rollback for the ball. 0:21:44.960 --> 0:21:48.439 It seems like the governing bodies have seeded the point 0:21:48.720 --> 0:21:52.280 that a rollback of the amateur's ball would be bad 0:21:52.320 --> 0:21:55.280 for the recreational game, when I don't think that's the case. 0:21:55.640 --> 0:21:58.040 I don't think that they should admit that point that 0:21:58.119 --> 0:22:02.440 a shorter ball is necessary worse or less fun or 0:22:02.600 --> 0:22:06.720 somehow unattractive for recreational players, because I just don't see 0:22:06.760 --> 0:22:07.560 it that way at all. 0:22:08.040 --> 0:22:10.159 You know, I've I've kind of played golf with a 0:22:10.200 --> 0:22:12.600 self imposed rollback for the last year. 0:22:12.680 --> 0:22:15.919 Yeah, you have, so for those that I've. 0:22:15.680 --> 0:22:18.040 Talked a little bit about this on this podcast, But 0:22:18.320 --> 0:22:23.040 I play with a persimon driver titleist PT three Wood 0:22:23.960 --> 0:22:26.400 nineteen seventies Blade Irons, and. 0:22:26.440 --> 0:22:28.840 You're you're you're such a woke andy look at you, 0:22:29.280 --> 0:22:30.520 I such a frankly. 0:22:30.600 --> 0:22:33.240 Frankly, what happened was like my my ten year old 0:22:33.280 --> 0:22:36.640 clubs they broke and I just haven't got I haven't 0:22:36.680 --> 0:22:38.960 found the time to go get new ones from from 0:22:39.040 --> 0:22:41.840 Club Champion, and like I just haven't gone. 0:22:41.960 --> 0:22:44.120 Like that's literally why this has happened. 0:22:45.040 --> 0:22:49.960 I've like had like great joy playing the game at 0:22:49.960 --> 0:22:51.399 a smaller scale. 0:22:51.720 --> 0:22:55.000 And We've heard this this word used before, but. 0:22:55.480 --> 0:22:59.880 I've had like incredible amount of fun playing golf courses 0:23:00.200 --> 0:23:03.520 and not bludgeting them with a driver and a wedge 0:23:03.840 --> 0:23:07.320 like I've I think I've gotten I think like I 0:23:07.359 --> 0:23:09.720 haven't played modern equipment, but like I think when I 0:23:09.760 --> 0:23:12.840 play it the next time, it's going to be like WHOA, 0:23:13.320 --> 0:23:15.680 Like I've gotten a lot better over the last year 0:23:15.720 --> 0:23:18.840 because I've had to like work on different things, Like 0:23:18.880 --> 0:23:22.440 I've had longer approach shots into greens all for a year, 0:23:22.960 --> 0:23:25.400 you know. I just like my short game is better 0:23:25.440 --> 0:23:27.800 because I've missed a lot more greens. And that's I 0:23:27.840 --> 0:23:31.119 think the interesting thing about this when you talk about, 0:23:31.520 --> 0:23:35.920 you know, the tour is like and be recreational golf. 0:23:36.040 --> 0:23:39.879 The recreational golf takeaway is like I have done this. 0:23:40.400 --> 0:23:42.919 I've I think that's it's probably been pretty close to 0:23:43.000 --> 0:23:46.840 the yardage number that I've taken away from myself, and I've. 0:23:46.680 --> 0:23:47.560 Really enjoyed it. 0:23:47.760 --> 0:23:50.280 I have not like I you know, there are times 0:23:50.280 --> 0:23:52.760 when it's soft and I'm playing with people with modern 0:23:52.800 --> 0:23:55.480 equipment that I get a little frustrated. But for the 0:23:55.520 --> 0:23:59.000 most part, I've really never been like you know what, 0:23:59.160 --> 0:24:01.479 this sucks that I don't have I can't hit it 0:24:02.000 --> 0:24:03.679 twenty five thirty yards further. 0:24:04.160 --> 0:24:05.440 This this is terrible. 0:24:05.760 --> 0:24:09.240 I will say also, like for the professional game, for 0:24:09.359 --> 0:24:12.600 people that are saying like, oh, power players are going 0:24:12.680 --> 0:24:14.919 to be so much more advantage because this is going 0:24:14.960 --> 0:24:18.600 to hurt shorter players more. I don't think so, because, 0:24:18.640 --> 0:24:22.320 like if you're not hitting wedges all the time, golf 0:24:22.400 --> 0:24:22.920 becomes a. 0:24:22.880 --> 0:24:25.000 Lot harder for the power players. 0:24:25.080 --> 0:24:27.919 Like, what needs to be looked at, It's not just 0:24:28.040 --> 0:24:31.320 like the strokes gain difference off the tee. What needs 0:24:31.359 --> 0:24:33.560 to then be looked at is like, how is the 0:24:33.640 --> 0:24:37.919 individual player from one fifty versus one twenty five? So 0:24:38.320 --> 0:24:41.399 look at that one twenty five versus the one fifty number. 0:24:41.400 --> 0:24:44.199 But also the player, the shorter player, say they go 0:24:44.280 --> 0:24:47.880 from one seventy five to two hundred. What's the difference there? 0:24:48.240 --> 0:24:50.040 Right? Is there a huge difference? 0:24:50.520 --> 0:24:53.720 And you know, different players, it's going to be different things, 0:24:53.800 --> 0:24:56.000 like certain players are going to be better at that 0:24:56.480 --> 0:24:58.920 around the green I think is going to be more 0:24:59.119 --> 0:25:00.520 emphasized because of this. 0:25:01.440 --> 0:25:05.400 Yeah, I think that it should be seen rollbacks should 0:25:05.440 --> 0:25:10.200 be seen less as a deficiency, less as taking something 0:25:10.240 --> 0:25:13.040 away and more as sort of changing the nature of 0:25:13.040 --> 0:25:15.919 the game that you play. And for some people it 0:25:15.960 --> 0:25:19.760 will be a disadvantage. Let's be honest. If you play 0:25:19.800 --> 0:25:22.760 from the same tees and you rely on a certain 0:25:22.760 --> 0:25:26.040 amount of distance off the tee and you have less distance, 0:25:26.119 --> 0:25:28.639 then yeah, you're going to be hitting longer clubs. But 0:25:29.080 --> 0:25:30.879 for other people it might be good for them to 0:25:30.960 --> 0:25:34.760 have tighter dispersion, the tighter dispersion of a shorter drive. 0:25:35.320 --> 0:25:37.520 You know, I think that it's just more complex than 0:25:37.560 --> 0:25:42.760 saying roll back is a disadvantage to recreational golfers or 0:25:42.800 --> 0:25:45.639 something that makes the game more difficult, because I just 0:25:45.680 --> 0:25:50.119 don't think it would feel that way in reality. And 0:25:50.240 --> 0:25:53.240 part of this comes from my memories of playing golf 0:25:53.920 --> 0:25:57.479 before the four hundred and sixty cc driver. You know, 0:25:57.560 --> 0:26:00.000 I was young, but I did play golf in the nineties, 0:26:00.880 --> 0:26:04.160 and guess what, it was just as fun then as 0:26:04.160 --> 0:26:07.119 it is now. It wasn't that big of a deal 0:26:07.200 --> 0:26:10.440 to me that my three would was sometimes easier to 0:26:10.520 --> 0:26:12.840 hit off the tee than the driver. That was fine. 0:26:12.880 --> 0:26:15.159 That was a feature of the game, you know, And 0:26:15.240 --> 0:26:18.560 we played with spinnier balls that traveled a shorter distance. 0:26:18.920 --> 0:26:22.000 The game was still incredibly fun. It was still the 0:26:22.080 --> 0:26:25.320 greatest game I had ever played in my life. And 0:26:25.440 --> 0:26:28.439 so anyway, that's that's my take on that. Now we 0:26:28.440 --> 0:26:31.160 should get to the guests that you have lined up, 0:26:31.920 --> 0:26:34.560 because people, we could talk forever about this, and I'm 0:26:34.560 --> 0:26:36.639 sure we'll talk more about it in the future. But 0:26:36.960 --> 0:26:38.560 who's next up on the docket? 0:26:38.560 --> 0:26:38.720 Here? 0:26:38.760 --> 0:26:40.160 We got Tom Doak first. 0:26:40.359 --> 0:26:44.720 He will be up and he obviously has some interesting 0:26:44.800 --> 0:26:47.760 thoughts on architecture and how this applies to his job. 0:26:47.960 --> 0:26:49.360 Then we have Roberto Castro. 0:26:49.560 --> 0:26:53.200 I wanted to have somebody on that was very connected 0:26:53.240 --> 0:26:56.080 to the PGA Tour game, but maybe not like right 0:26:56.200 --> 0:26:58.320 in it right now. So they have a little bit, 0:26:58.560 --> 0:26:59.920 you know, it's one of those can you see the 0:27:00.160 --> 0:27:04.400 force through the trees type situation. And then Joseph Lamannia 0:27:04.520 --> 0:27:07.040 to talk about strategy. We got into it a little bit, 0:27:07.119 --> 0:27:09.960 but he has some more thoughts on how golf will 0:27:10.040 --> 0:27:13.280 change if there's fifteen to twenty yard reduction in drivers. 0:27:13.480 --> 0:27:14.520 Okay, let's go to it. 0:27:23.680 --> 0:27:26.399 Now. For a quick word from our sponsor, which is 0:27:26.480 --> 0:27:30.359 Club TFE. This is the membership for the Fried Egg. 0:27:30.880 --> 0:27:33.560 One of the things that I made a very conscious 0:27:34.440 --> 0:27:37.840 decision when I started this company seven years ago was 0:27:37.920 --> 0:27:41.520 that we would not be taking money from equipment sponsors 0:27:41.560 --> 0:27:47.359 that wanted our voice to be, Hey, buy this club, 0:27:47.520 --> 0:27:49.920 use this ball, it's the best, because it's something that 0:27:50.040 --> 0:27:53.919 I just didn't believe it. I believe that there is 0:27:53.960 --> 0:27:56.080 no best ball, there's a best ball for you, there's 0:27:56.080 --> 0:27:59.200 a best club for you. But also I believe that, 0:27:59.359 --> 0:28:01.480 you know, the game had kind of gotten a little 0:28:01.480 --> 0:28:05.480 out of balance and that a you know, regulation was 0:28:05.520 --> 0:28:09.320 probably needed. And you know, I never wanted a company 0:28:09.359 --> 0:28:13.480 that financially supported us to have a role in how 0:28:13.520 --> 0:28:16.679 we talked about the game. So you know, obviously that 0:28:16.840 --> 0:28:21.200 is a big revenue source for most media companies in golf, 0:28:21.240 --> 0:28:24.040 and that's not a revenue source for us. One of 0:28:24.080 --> 0:28:27.520 the ways that we support our staff continue to grow 0:28:27.560 --> 0:28:30.679 and continue to improve the content we put out is 0:28:30.720 --> 0:28:34.200 through Club TFE, which also happens to be a way 0:28:34.240 --> 0:28:38.040 for you to feed fuel your golf addiction. We are 0:28:38.160 --> 0:28:43.680 posting daily articles Monday through Friday in Club TFE. Every Wednesday, 0:28:43.720 --> 0:28:47.120 we have a detailed course review right up with a rating. 0:28:47.760 --> 0:28:51.160 We have a monthly member video. We have a monthly 0:28:51.560 --> 0:28:54.880 hangout which is kind of just like a live podcast, 0:28:55.440 --> 0:28:59.120 and we have a lot more early event access discounts 0:28:59.120 --> 0:29:02.840 to the pro shop. It is something that we're excited about. 0:29:02.880 --> 0:29:05.920 We want to continue to build and grow and it 0:29:06.000 --> 0:29:08.840 is a awesome probably the best way for you to 0:29:08.880 --> 0:29:11.520 support the Frida Egg and what we do here. So 0:29:11.680 --> 0:29:13.960 if you're interested in the membership, if you want to 0:29:14.040 --> 0:29:17.880 check it out, go to membership dot thefridagg dot com. 0:29:18.040 --> 0:29:20.200 It is one hundred and twenty dollars for the year 0:29:20.720 --> 0:29:23.440 and it gets you a lot of stuff. I think 0:29:23.560 --> 0:29:26.200 you know, I've been really impressed with our team and 0:29:26.240 --> 0:29:29.400 our output and our dedication towards it. It is something 0:29:29.440 --> 0:29:32.440 that we want to be a really special product. It 0:29:32.520 --> 0:29:36.480 is not just a GoFundMe type thing. It is a product. 0:29:36.520 --> 0:29:39.040 We are putting a lot of our time and energy 0:29:39.160 --> 0:29:42.080 into it, and I think everybody on the team is 0:29:42.200 --> 0:29:44.680 very proud of what we've done with it so far. 0:29:45.160 --> 0:29:49.600 So if you're interested in supporting us, membership dot Thefrida 0:29:49.600 --> 0:29:51.840 Egg dot com. It's one hundred and twenty dollars for 0:29:51.880 --> 0:29:55.600 the year. And now back to our discussion on the 0:29:55.680 --> 0:30:07.280 latest USGA and RNA news. Tom with the Rollback News 0:30:07.960 --> 0:30:13.320 Today and Geared towards elite players. You recently completed a 0:30:13.360 --> 0:30:17.560 golf design that was, you know, obviously part municipal golf, 0:30:17.600 --> 0:30:21.600 but also part hosting a PGA Tour event every year 0:30:21.680 --> 0:30:25.440 in Memorial Park in Houston. How, if any would you 0:30:25.520 --> 0:30:28.040 have changed your design for that golf course with this 0:30:28.720 --> 0:30:30.320 reduction in distance in mind? 0:30:31.080 --> 0:30:33.560 Honestly, I don't think it changes what we did much 0:30:33.600 --> 0:30:36.680 at all. I mean, you know, you're talking about a 0:30:37.000 --> 0:30:39.800 five or six percent rollback of the golf ball from 0:30:40.040 --> 0:30:42.640 from what I can tell from the little bit that 0:30:42.680 --> 0:30:45.720 I've heard so far. And you know, what I've always 0:30:45.800 --> 0:30:48.479 tried to do is recognize that even tour players hit 0:30:48.480 --> 0:30:51.400 at different distances. You know, some guys carry a three 0:30:51.520 --> 0:30:54.080 hundred yards, some guys carry it to ninety. A few 0:30:54.200 --> 0:30:58.200 can hit carry it three fifteen. So you don't I've never, 0:30:58.360 --> 0:31:01.280 I've always tried to avoid putting all the hazards at 0:31:01.280 --> 0:31:04.400 a certain distance, thinking, you know, if you can carry 0:31:04.440 --> 0:31:07.880 it three hundred, then you're good and you should be 0:31:07.920 --> 0:31:10.360 rewarded all the time. And if you can only carry 0:31:10.400 --> 0:31:12.680 it two eighty five, well then you're not so good 0:31:13.200 --> 0:31:15.320 and you have to hit it into tighter spaces all 0:31:15.360 --> 0:31:19.440 the time. So a Memorial Park has a range of carries, 0:31:19.920 --> 0:31:22.720 you know, and there's a couple of them, like the 0:31:23.880 --> 0:31:27.640 shot from the back tee on sixteen that to carry 0:31:27.680 --> 0:31:29.880 the most part of the water on the right is 0:31:29.920 --> 0:31:33.040 a little over three hundred yards. And if this, you know, 0:31:33.080 --> 0:31:35.480 if I am reading this rollback right, there's a lot 0:31:35.560 --> 0:31:38.480 fewer guys that are going to take that on that 0:31:38.560 --> 0:31:41.680 particular carry on unless the wind is helping them or 0:31:41.720 --> 0:31:44.960 something like that. But you know, all it's going to 0:31:45.000 --> 0:31:47.440 do is slide back the scale a little bit of 0:31:47.920 --> 0:31:50.200 you know, the guys, the guys that can carry it 0:31:50.400 --> 0:31:52.560 further now are going to have to play up more 0:31:52.680 --> 0:31:54.640 like the guys who are a little shorter, and the 0:31:54.680 --> 0:31:56.880 guys who are on the short end of the stick 0:31:57.000 --> 0:31:59.400 now are going to have to think back a little 0:31:59.440 --> 0:32:02.280 bit further two and you know, and there's going to 0:32:02.320 --> 0:32:05.160 be one or two holes where they've got to give 0:32:05.240 --> 0:32:06.800 up trying to make a certain carry. 0:32:07.440 --> 0:32:12.440 In a way, would you agree that this would make 0:32:12.640 --> 0:32:16.560 your golf course perhaps even a little bit more versatile. 0:32:17.320 --> 0:32:22.120 If this is only being applied to the elite players 0:32:22.160 --> 0:32:24.840 and not to the people that play Memorial Park every day, 0:32:25.160 --> 0:32:28.080 you're narrowing the gap a little bit there. You know, 0:32:28.200 --> 0:32:31.120 you're you know, you're letting all the amateurs go out 0:32:31.600 --> 0:32:33.760 and still hit the ball just as far as they do, 0:32:33.960 --> 0:32:37.280 and you're shortening the gap between them and the tour 0:32:37.360 --> 0:32:41.360 pros from you know, probably fifty or sixty yards now 0:32:41.440 --> 0:32:45.040 down to thirty, which that makes a difference. But and 0:32:46.360 --> 0:32:49.240 you know, the one thing this will affect is that 0:32:49.320 --> 0:32:51.920 the scoring will go up a little bit. If everybody's 0:32:52.000 --> 0:32:55.720 hitting two more clubs into green, that's going to matter some. 0:32:56.280 --> 0:32:58.360 It's not gonna I don't think it's going to change 0:32:58.400 --> 0:33:01.200 the approach of what they're trying to do. 0:33:01.840 --> 0:33:02.040 You know. 0:33:02.080 --> 0:33:04.600 I don't think that they're going to go away from 0:33:04.680 --> 0:33:07.520 attacking as many pins because they've got an aid iron 0:33:07.600 --> 0:33:10.720 to the green instead of a wedge. But it will 0:33:10.760 --> 0:33:12.040 have some effect. 0:33:11.920 --> 0:33:12.160 You know. 0:33:12.480 --> 0:33:15.600 It's you know, if you if you you know, I 0:33:15.880 --> 0:33:17.920 don't know the numbers very well, but you can look 0:33:18.160 --> 0:33:21.160 very clearly on the all those charts they have now 0:33:21.200 --> 0:33:24.680 and say, okay, if everybody's hitting approaches from twenty yards 0:33:24.720 --> 0:33:28.080 further out, we know what the scoring differential is there 0:33:28.240 --> 0:33:30.680 between one hundred and forty yard approaches and one hundred 0:33:30.720 --> 0:33:33.720 and sixty yard approaches and you can count on the 0:33:33.760 --> 0:33:34.960 scores going up that much. 0:33:35.480 --> 0:33:39.320 Yeah. And then furthermore with that, obviously, is that you know, 0:33:39.520 --> 0:33:42.840 it's not just the driver. You know, their irons will 0:33:42.920 --> 0:33:45.680 be slightly it won't be as short, but they will 0:33:45.680 --> 0:33:49.840 be a little bit shorter too. I imagine for you 0:33:49.880 --> 0:33:54.640 as a designer, this gives you the opportunity, a little 0:33:54.680 --> 0:33:56.959 bit more of an opportunity. It seems like it's a 0:33:57.080 --> 0:33:59.640 very hard thing to do, is to get a longer 0:34:00.080 --> 0:34:03.560 iron like a five iron or more into a professional's 0:34:03.600 --> 0:34:06.560 hand on a part four. I imagine that this will 0:34:06.600 --> 0:34:06.920 do that. 0:34:08.040 --> 0:34:11.279 Yes, it will, you know, by the same token it's 0:34:11.320 --> 0:34:13.879 going to mean. I mean, if anything, it means they'll 0:34:13.960 --> 0:34:17.560 hit driver, you know, even more of all the time 0:34:17.680 --> 0:34:20.960 everywhere now because they because they you know, they've have 0:34:21.080 --> 0:34:23.160 been beaten into them. They need to get up there. 0:34:23.600 --> 0:34:26.040 And if if hitting an iron off the team means 0:34:26.080 --> 0:34:28.440 they're that much further back in the rough than they 0:34:28.440 --> 0:34:31.439 would have been before, they're not willing to take that chance. 0:34:31.480 --> 0:34:34.319 They're just going to pound driver all day. Unless they're 0:34:34.600 --> 0:34:37.320 trying to hit into a funnel with water on both sides. 0:34:37.360 --> 0:34:38.360 Obviously they don't do that. 0:34:39.040 --> 0:34:42.239 Yeah, that's That's the one thing that I'm super interested 0:34:42.280 --> 0:34:47.360 to see with the strategy component is if let's we 0:34:47.560 --> 0:34:51.600 know that like there's huge value to get a wedge 0:34:52.040 --> 0:34:55.320 in the rough versus a seven iron in the fairway, 0:34:56.040 --> 0:34:58.600 but when you move that back and it's a seven 0:34:58.640 --> 0:35:01.120 iron in the rough or let's just say a five 0:35:01.200 --> 0:35:04.480 iron in the fair way, right, how does that change? 0:35:04.480 --> 0:35:06.920 And I'm sure there's data, and I apologize that I 0:35:06.960 --> 0:35:10.400 don't have this data. I'm not a corese strategist, but 0:35:10.600 --> 0:35:14.640 that's what I'm wondering. If that is a smaller delta 0:35:15.080 --> 0:35:17.720 there and then all of a sudden, does it start 0:35:17.760 --> 0:35:21.520 to present more of a choice off the tee? 0:35:22.680 --> 0:35:26.880 Maybe, but I don't think. You know, I've always thought 0:35:26.920 --> 0:35:29.920 that the biggest change in my lifetime and the equipment, 0:35:30.200 --> 0:35:33.920 it wasn't the ball, It was the driver. And you 0:35:33.960 --> 0:35:37.360 know the reason those guys and you know they do 0:35:37.480 --> 0:35:39.480 use three food off the tea fair amount now, but 0:35:39.520 --> 0:35:42.720 the driver just has there's such a big face there 0:35:42.800 --> 0:35:46.080 and you can go at it so hard and you know, 0:35:46.280 --> 0:35:48.640 miss way up on the toe somewhere and it only 0:35:48.680 --> 0:35:51.400 costs you like five yards on the carry. To me, 0:35:51.520 --> 0:35:55.040 that the biggest lesson for me from the Renaissance Club 0:35:55.080 --> 0:36:00.560 in Memorial Park was there that the pros distance control 0:36:00.800 --> 0:36:05.520 is so consistent because the equipment is so forgiven that 0:36:06.719 --> 0:36:09.960 it's almost impossible to you know, make a carry on 0:36:10.000 --> 0:36:13.359 a golf course that you know, they don't ever mis. 0:36:13.480 --> 0:36:15.360 You know, they don't make a mistake with a carry 0:36:15.680 --> 0:36:19.520 because if they hit you know, if you made them 0:36:19.640 --> 0:36:24.000 hit driver fifty times and they and their average carry 0:36:24.080 --> 0:36:27.520 was three hundred yards, I think the margin for error now, 0:36:27.560 --> 0:36:29.880 like the worst drive out of fifty is going to 0:36:29.960 --> 0:36:32.640 go like two ninety four ninety five, So all they 0:36:32.800 --> 0:36:35.080 you know, if they know it's more than two ninety, 0:36:35.160 --> 0:36:37.440 you know, if they know two ninety is the carry, 0:36:37.920 --> 0:36:40.719 they can go for that every time and they're never 0:36:40.880 --> 0:36:45.400 going to miss. Whereas twenty years ago that was not true. 0:36:45.920 --> 0:36:48.160 You know, you could there was always a chance of 0:36:48.440 --> 0:36:51.319 not having a perfect on center, hitting the ball didn't 0:36:51.360 --> 0:36:54.080 fly so far and you had trouble. And now it's 0:36:54.160 --> 0:36:57.160 like two ninety five over water. Oh yeah, I'm going 0:36:57.239 --> 0:36:58.160 to make that every time. 0:36:58.880 --> 0:37:03.439 It sounds like the USGAH looked at that and they 0:37:03.520 --> 0:37:07.760 thought it might be too compliment complicated to implement, doing 0:37:07.840 --> 0:37:11.479 some sort of a change along those lines. Years ago, 0:37:11.719 --> 0:37:14.719 I did a little experiment. I never published the results 0:37:14.719 --> 0:37:18.319 of this, but I went to a track man and 0:37:18.360 --> 0:37:23.239 I hit Hickory driver, a Persimon driver, and then a 0:37:24.040 --> 0:37:27.359 modern my modern driver and what was And I hit 0:37:27.560 --> 0:37:30.279 about ten to twenty shots with them. And what was 0:37:30.320 --> 0:37:32.759 interesting was to look at the dispersion. It was it's 0:37:32.840 --> 0:37:37.520 just what you're talking about. And the dispersions were like 0:37:37.880 --> 0:37:43.000 a horizontal line or not like a diagonal. I'm trying 0:37:43.040 --> 0:37:46.239 to explain this in a non visual format, but it 0:37:46.280 --> 0:37:49.640 was like a diagonal with the with the person and 0:37:49.680 --> 0:37:52.400 the smaller head drivers, the Persimon and the Hickory. What 0:37:52.440 --> 0:37:55.319 I saw was there was a diagonal which was like 0:37:55.440 --> 0:37:58.480 kind of short. You had that short right miss that 0:37:58.640 --> 0:38:01.839 was the short misses, and then the left it kind 0:38:01.840 --> 0:38:05.520 of like it had that wide dispersion of right and left, 0:38:05.920 --> 0:38:08.799 but then there was a short right component of it 0:38:09.040 --> 0:38:12.160 where the ball is just not going very far if 0:38:12.200 --> 0:38:15.000 you missed it a certain way right. But then when 0:38:15.040 --> 0:38:17.839 you got to the modern driver, it was just like 0:38:17.920 --> 0:38:24.240 a horizontal line where the distance was basically the same, 0:38:24.640 --> 0:38:28.400 but you would miss right or left. So it removes 0:38:28.520 --> 0:38:32.200 that short miss from a miss hit when you that's 0:38:32.239 --> 0:38:35.359 what's happened with modern drivers, is the right You've been 0:38:35.360 --> 0:38:39.880 saying that forgiveness for a high swing speed player is 0:38:40.000 --> 0:38:41.160 just off. 0:38:40.960 --> 0:38:44.080 The charts, and you know, I mean it's not just 0:38:44.160 --> 0:38:47.160 you know, I recognize it with the driver because that 0:38:47.239 --> 0:38:51.160 affects even me. You know, pros generally they're not missing 0:38:51.160 --> 0:38:55.000 the driver way up on the top. They're pretty good, 0:38:55.880 --> 0:38:57.880 you know. So it goes through all the clubs in 0:38:57.920 --> 0:39:00.319 their bag too. Where I really realized it, you know, 0:39:00.400 --> 0:39:03.680 Padrick Harrington now is consulting on the Renaissance Club in Scotland, 0:39:03.719 --> 0:39:06.280 and we were we were sitting in his kitchen talking 0:39:06.360 --> 0:39:08.600 through the holes and we got to the seventeenth pole 0:39:09.160 --> 0:39:11.400 and you know, seventeen's long, part three and there's a 0:39:11.440 --> 0:39:15.359 deep ass bunker left front, which you don't see very 0:39:15.360 --> 0:39:19.080 well from the tee and it's only really in play 0:39:19.600 --> 0:39:21.560 with the pin on the left. So one or two 0:39:21.600 --> 0:39:24.040 days out of four. But we when we went to 0:39:24.040 --> 0:39:26.600 look at that whole, Padrick said, oh, I forgot that 0:39:26.640 --> 0:39:29.239 bunker was even there. And I said, wait, you you 0:39:29.280 --> 0:39:31.799 know the holes like two twenty you know, you got 0:39:31.800 --> 0:39:34.080 to carry it two hundred and something over the bunker 0:39:34.360 --> 0:39:36.719 you're not even thinking about that. And he's like, no, 0:39:37.160 --> 0:39:39.759 the way the green is, I'm trying to you know, 0:39:39.840 --> 0:39:42.600 the the green slopes away from the bunker a little bit, 0:39:42.640 --> 0:39:44.520 so I'm trying to land the ball eight yards on. 0:39:45.120 --> 0:39:47.960 I'm never going to be eight yards short from two twenty. 0:39:49.560 --> 0:39:51.960 And he meant it. You know, he wasn't joking. 0:39:52.080 --> 0:39:54.279 He was like, I'm never going to make that, have 0:39:54.440 --> 0:39:57.040 that miss, and I'm like, what the hell am I 0:39:57.080 --> 0:39:58.120 even doing? 0:40:00.320 --> 0:40:03.480 Speaking of professionals, this is just cave across by desk, 0:40:03.800 --> 0:40:08.600 we're recording this well, well, professional golfers. Comments are rolling in. 0:40:09.600 --> 0:40:13.000 We got we got one from Web Simpson, and the 0:40:13.160 --> 0:40:15.960 question to you would be, how would you respond to 0:40:16.040 --> 0:40:20.720 Web Simpson's commentary that the solution to the distance problem 0:40:20.840 --> 0:40:25.280 is better architecture and more specifically, more rough and more trees. 0:40:26.640 --> 0:40:29.719 I don't know Web Simpson's game well enough, but you know, 0:40:30.239 --> 0:40:33.560 anytime a player says more rough and more trees, he's 0:40:33.600 --> 0:40:36.239 a straight hitter and not a really long hitter, and 0:40:36.280 --> 0:40:38.759 he just wants the long hitters punished when they hit 0:40:38.800 --> 0:40:41.960 a wild t shot, which I can totally understand from 0:40:42.000 --> 0:40:45.320 his perspective. You know, the problem about talking with any 0:40:45.520 --> 0:40:48.719 tour pro or really any golfer about their perspective on 0:40:48.800 --> 0:40:52.200 this stuff is that it's all based on their own game, 0:40:52.760 --> 0:40:55.040 you know. You know, even Jack Nicholas when we were 0:40:55.040 --> 0:40:57.600 working at Sabonic. You know, Jack is you know, he's 0:40:57.640 --> 0:41:01.000 well aware that you know, Tiger Woods in the younger 0:41:01.000 --> 0:41:05.239 generation they hit it, you know, thirty yards farther than 0:41:05.320 --> 0:41:09.520 Jack did back then. But to Jack, you know, a 0:41:09.560 --> 0:41:13.160 two hundred and eighty yard carry was was a reasonable 0:41:13.239 --> 0:41:15.799 carry and if you could make that, you should be rewarded. 0:41:16.520 --> 0:41:19.640 And if you didn't hit it solid, you know, to 0:41:19.719 --> 0:41:21.959 him it was it was still the way we were 0:41:22.040 --> 0:41:24.680 talking about how golf used to be. If you didn't 0:41:24.760 --> 0:41:28.040 hit the driver so solid and it didn't make that carry, 0:41:28.080 --> 0:41:30.520 then you should be punished for that. But he just, 0:41:30.880 --> 0:41:33.319 you know, he couldn't help but think of it in 0:41:33.440 --> 0:41:36.479 terms of his own game, even though he knows better 0:41:36.560 --> 0:41:38.960 that there's plenty of other guys that hit a different 0:41:39.000 --> 0:41:39.840 distances than it. 0:41:40.480 --> 0:41:43.239 I mean, to be a great golfer, there is a 0:41:44.160 --> 0:41:48.000 self pursuit aspect, like you have to be very selfish 0:41:48.000 --> 0:41:50.480 and you have to view kind of the world of 0:41:50.520 --> 0:41:53.560 golf through a very like it's it's very hard to 0:41:53.600 --> 0:41:56.880 be you know, almost like a you know, thinking of 0:41:56.920 --> 0:41:59.560 other people and be a successful pro golfer. 0:42:00.120 --> 0:42:03.040 Yes, and and you know, more than that, they want 0:42:03.080 --> 0:42:05.719 to believe that if they you know, they know when 0:42:05.760 --> 0:42:08.480 they're hitting the ball well or not well, and they 0:42:08.560 --> 0:42:12.120 want to be rewarded for hitting the ball well. Web 0:42:12.160 --> 0:42:14.479 Simpson's idea of hitting the ball well is I'm hitting 0:42:14.480 --> 0:42:16.680 it straight on the fairway all the time, so the 0:42:16.760 --> 0:42:18.680 golf course should be tighter, and if I can't hit 0:42:18.719 --> 0:42:21.040 that fairway, I should be punished for you know, and 0:42:21.120 --> 0:42:22.880 other guys it's more about how far they hit. 0:42:23.680 --> 0:42:26.480 Yeah, it's a great point. I think if you pulled, 0:42:27.000 --> 0:42:30.480 you know, Jason Cocrack to Web Simpson, I'm amazed that 0:42:31.000 --> 0:42:33.959 you preface it by saying you know nothing about web 0:42:34.040 --> 0:42:38.360 Simpson's game and then then explained web Simpson's game to 0:42:38.440 --> 0:42:42.759 a t. But if you compared those two players to 0:42:43.200 --> 0:42:46.000 get wildly different opinions on how a golf course should 0:42:46.000 --> 0:42:50.040 be set up, so a bigger question. And I think, 0:42:50.719 --> 0:42:54.000 you know, if they had taken this approach to roll 0:42:54.040 --> 0:42:58.319 back for the entire game, not just the professional game, 0:42:58.360 --> 0:43:00.680 and it seems like what you're getting at not much 0:43:00.719 --> 0:43:04.160 would change with how you designed a course for a professional. 0:43:04.560 --> 0:43:08.080 How would golf course design and management change if this 0:43:08.280 --> 0:43:12.480 was applied universally across the board to golf. 0:43:13.160 --> 0:43:15.520 Again, I don't think it changes that much. I mean, 0:43:15.600 --> 0:43:18.720 you know, the average player, the Deltas are way bigger 0:43:18.760 --> 0:43:21.400 on their misses and how far they hit. You know, 0:43:21.480 --> 0:43:24.320 how far one You know, if you're a ten handicapper, 0:43:24.640 --> 0:43:26.680 some of them hit the ball two ninety and some 0:43:26.760 --> 0:43:28.880 of them hit the ball two hundred yards, And you 0:43:28.920 --> 0:43:32.319 can still be a ten handicapper under either of those scenarios, 0:43:32.360 --> 0:43:34.560 depending on how the rest of your game. 0:43:35.000 --> 0:43:35.200 You know. 0:43:35.640 --> 0:43:38.080 The thing about why the tour pros are so consistent 0:43:38.160 --> 0:43:40.879 is partly you have to be really good at all 0:43:40.960 --> 0:43:42.839 parts of the game to survive out there. You know, 0:43:43.200 --> 0:43:45.640 it's not like there's tour pros with who hit it 0:43:45.640 --> 0:43:48.359 gray but have bad short games that won't work. And 0:43:48.400 --> 0:43:50.600 it's not like they're tour pros they hit it bad 0:43:50.640 --> 0:43:53.600 but have great short games. That's not good enough to 0:43:53.600 --> 0:43:55.640 be one of the hundred best players in the world. 0:43:55.840 --> 0:43:58.799 But when we're talking about the average golfer, the ten 0:43:58.920 --> 0:44:02.719 or fifteen handycap app er, Yeah, there's huge variations in 0:44:02.800 --> 0:44:05.839 what kind of golf they play, and that's why there's 0:44:05.960 --> 0:44:08.319 huge variations in what kind of courses they like. 0:44:09.000 --> 0:44:10.960 I think you're spot on, and I just want to 0:44:10.960 --> 0:44:14.680 clarify point when people talk about, oh, this guy's not 0:44:14.800 --> 0:44:17.520 a doesn't have a great short game on the PGA Tour. 0:44:17.800 --> 0:44:21.040 That's in comparison to his peers, who are the very 0:44:21.160 --> 0:44:24.560 very best in the world. Not like you know, in 0:44:24.800 --> 0:44:28.719 my years of caddying, you could create an eight handicap 0:44:29.280 --> 0:44:33.479 that has such wildly different skill sets, right. One could 0:44:33.520 --> 0:44:36.520 be really long off the t tour, long off the 0:44:36.560 --> 0:44:40.160 t but an eight handicap because it's wild and it's 0:44:40.280 --> 0:44:43.000 very inconsistent and just wawful around the green. 0:44:43.120 --> 0:44:45.600 And the other guy is a sixty five year old 0:44:45.600 --> 0:44:47.799 guy that used to be scratched and still hits every 0:44:47.960 --> 0:44:50.560 shot exactly flushed, and he's just not long enough to 0:44:50.560 --> 0:44:53.080 be any better than an eight handicap exactly. 0:44:53.200 --> 0:44:57.080 So it's important like to reference when when when there's 0:44:57.320 --> 0:45:01.680 criticism of a tour pros putting. For example, if you 0:45:01.719 --> 0:45:04.040 took that guy and put him at your club or 0:45:04.080 --> 0:45:07.840 your local course, he would probably be by far the 0:45:07.880 --> 0:45:10.960 best putter there, you know, like That's the thing that 0:45:11.040 --> 0:45:14.640 I think sometimes people like overlook is how good, how 0:45:14.719 --> 0:45:18.600 great these guys are everything, you know, and how wildly 0:45:18.680 --> 0:45:22.319 different in terms of like for there to be a 0:45:22.400 --> 0:45:26.279 shift in design, how drastic would the changes have to be? 0:45:27.320 --> 0:45:27.840 Uh? 0:45:27.880 --> 0:45:31.880 You know, they've been talking about this for forty years 0:45:32.160 --> 0:45:35.040 and if they'd have if they'd have stopped the growth 0:45:35.560 --> 0:45:39.680 thirty years ago, it would be different and he wouldn't 0:45:39.719 --> 0:45:42.160 see got you know, a course wouldn't have to be 0:45:42.280 --> 0:45:45.600 seventy five hundred yards to be a tour site. But 0:45:46.160 --> 0:45:49.480 you know, I mean, I you know, I thought that 0:45:50.640 --> 0:45:53.280 they were probably going to talk about a ten percent rollback, 0:45:53.400 --> 0:45:57.200 which would be enough to you know, not build some 0:45:57.280 --> 0:46:01.399 of the crazy back tees that we've been building. Some 0:46:01.440 --> 0:46:05.280 people talked about a fifteen percent rollback. That would get 0:46:05.480 --> 0:46:08.240 you know, that would bring Rory McElroy back to where 0:46:08.520 --> 0:46:12.160 Jack Nicholas was forty years ago. That would be that 0:46:12.200 --> 0:46:17.520 would that might have serious implications for course strategy at 0:46:17.520 --> 0:46:20.160 that point. You know, now you're talking about hitting pretty 0:46:20.200 --> 0:46:23.520 long clubs into a lot of the greens. You can't 0:46:23.560 --> 0:46:26.000 be on the rough for that. And now you got 0:46:26.000 --> 0:46:28.880 to think about, okay, you know, where is the balance 0:46:28.920 --> 0:46:33.000 of hitting the fairways more versus versus getting a little farther. 0:46:33.400 --> 0:46:36.959 But you know, I don't think a five or six 0:46:37.040 --> 0:46:43.120 percent different change makes a real difference in terms of 0:46:43.160 --> 0:46:45.520 how people attack the golf course, because really, all you're 0:46:45.520 --> 0:46:48.120 talking about is I don't know. I don't know when 0:46:48.160 --> 0:46:51.760 the average PGA Tour driving distance was six percent shorter, 0:46:52.080 --> 0:46:55.080 but when that long ago, you know, it was in 0:46:55.200 --> 0:46:59.520 my professional lifetime, and I haven't really started I haven't 0:46:59.520 --> 0:47:02.000 really changed much in my professional lifetime about how I 0:47:02.000 --> 0:47:02.760 approach design. 0:47:02.920 --> 0:47:03.240 There. 0:47:03.560 --> 0:47:07.240 You know, the change has been incremental, and it's certainly 0:47:07.239 --> 0:47:09.640 way different now than it was thirty five years ago, 0:47:10.200 --> 0:47:13.680 but not to a level that, oh, you know, we 0:47:13.800 --> 0:47:15.640 got to start designing everything differently. 0:47:16.320 --> 0:47:19.520 I think what you talked about with like fifteen percent 0:47:19.680 --> 0:47:22.520 for example, what that could also lead, Like you talked 0:47:22.520 --> 0:47:26.200 about the strategy change, but another thing that might change 0:47:26.360 --> 0:47:28.960 is the golf ball makeup. At that point, if all 0:47:29.000 --> 0:47:32.680 of a sudden, guys are hitting very long irons into 0:47:32.719 --> 0:47:36.360 play into greens rather than short irons, and greens are firm, 0:47:36.880 --> 0:47:40.000 they might value a spin yar golf ball. You know, 0:47:40.440 --> 0:47:44.239 these these are all different things that could you know 0:47:44.280 --> 0:47:47.640 that when This is a very small change and it 0:47:47.800 --> 0:47:52.080 limits the downstream you know effects that it does. It's 0:47:52.120 --> 0:47:56.560 a very safe change really when you think about because 0:47:56.640 --> 0:47:59.080 when you start to do a bigger and bigger change, 0:47:59.160 --> 0:48:03.680 that's where you start to have the more unforeseen downstream 0:48:03.800 --> 0:48:08.320 changes that could come up. And you know, I obviously 0:48:08.440 --> 0:48:12.880 it's a We're still three years from implementation, and I 0:48:12.920 --> 0:48:16.520 think there's nothing is final, so it'll be fun to 0:48:16.560 --> 0:48:19.839 watch this. Tom. I really appreciate you coming on and 0:48:19.880 --> 0:48:23.920 giving us your insights on the latest chapter in the 0:48:24.640 --> 0:48:26.280 two hundred year golf debate. 0:48:26.920 --> 0:48:34.360 All right, Andy, thank you, Roberto. 0:48:34.840 --> 0:48:38.960 What do you think about the changes introduced today, the 0:48:39.960 --> 0:48:45.680 reduction in just the tour professionals effectively distanced by fifteen 0:48:45.680 --> 0:48:48.960 to twenty yards via the swing speed test of the 0:48:49.640 --> 0:48:53.640 of the technology. What are your overarching thoughts on the 0:48:53.800 --> 0:48:55.680 news from the USJA and RNA today. 0:48:56.480 --> 0:48:58.719 My thoughts are pretty simple. I think it's just a 0:48:58.800 --> 0:49:03.640 no brainer. The how is you know upward debate? If 0:49:03.640 --> 0:49:06.000 it's ten, if it's fifteen, if it's twenty, I'm sure 0:49:06.040 --> 0:49:10.000 it'll affect some players more than others. The details, you know, 0:49:10.080 --> 0:49:12.480 we can talk about, but just the headline to me, 0:49:13.239 --> 0:49:15.680 I kind of was like, Okay, that needed to happen, 0:49:15.880 --> 0:49:17.680 kind of moved on with my day. That's how I 0:49:17.719 --> 0:49:18.040 see it. 0:49:18.800 --> 0:49:21.040 What do you mean by it had to happen and 0:49:21.080 --> 0:49:23.120 it's a no brainer. Why is it a no brainer? 0:49:23.880 --> 0:49:26.799 I think there's just two factors. One, the golf ball 0:49:26.880 --> 0:49:30.480 continues to fly farther, and that can be for a 0:49:30.560 --> 0:49:32.399 number of different reasons. You can say it's the driver, 0:49:32.560 --> 0:49:34.560 you can say it's the ball, you can say it's 0:49:34.640 --> 0:49:37.279 faster players, and all of those might be true, and 0:49:37.320 --> 0:49:40.000 all of them are true to some extent. But the 0:49:40.040 --> 0:49:43.480 ball continues to go longer and the courses don't get longer. 0:49:43.640 --> 0:49:47.319 So at some point either you're going to play a 0:49:47.360 --> 0:49:52.080 completely different game unlike the one that really how the 0:49:52.280 --> 0:49:54.840 game was designed to be played, which in my opinion 0:49:54.920 --> 0:49:57.480 is fourteen clubs. You hit some long shots, you hit 0:49:57.520 --> 0:49:59.680 some short shots. You have to be kind of good 0:49:59.719 --> 0:50:02.680 at all all the shots to be really good, or 0:50:03.800 --> 0:50:06.080 you can't expand the golf courses anymore. It's just not 0:50:06.280 --> 0:50:09.640 it's literally not possible anymore. To add, you can't have 0:50:09.680 --> 0:50:13.759 ten thousand yard golf courses. There's roads and neighborhoods, and 0:50:13.800 --> 0:50:16.640 there's no more land and no more water, so ball 0:50:16.680 --> 0:50:19.759 continues to go farther, courses don't get longer. Something had 0:50:19.800 --> 0:50:20.480 to be done. 0:50:20.640 --> 0:50:23.680 You know, I have to say I was I wanted 0:50:23.680 --> 0:50:26.200 to have you on because I thought, oh, he's he's 0:50:26.239 --> 0:50:29.840 a retired former player, he's going to have no bias, 0:50:30.040 --> 0:50:32.200 kind of no dog in this fight. But I just 0:50:32.440 --> 0:50:35.600 recalled that you just lost your course record at TVC 0:50:35.760 --> 0:50:39.240 Sawgrass this past weekend, so there could be some bias 0:50:39.239 --> 0:50:40.120 sneaking in here. 0:50:40.520 --> 0:50:43.719 I blame the rules officials for that. The setup was 0:50:43.800 --> 0:50:48.080 no that was you know, that was actually like obviously 0:50:48.120 --> 0:50:50.479 the course was gettable that day. But here's what happened there. 0:50:50.920 --> 0:50:53.440 You're talking about a twenty five million dollar perse and 0:50:53.480 --> 0:50:57.040 a guy who shot seventy eight on Thursday, and he 0:50:57.200 --> 0:50:59.480 backs into the cut like he shoots a nice round 0:50:59.480 --> 0:51:02.439 on Friday. The cut moves to two over, and we've 0:51:02.480 --> 0:51:05.120 all been there as pro golfers, like when you make 0:51:05.160 --> 0:51:07.040 that cut on the number, especially, like it kind of 0:51:07.040 --> 0:51:10.440 moves your way. It's the it's the lightest feeling in 0:51:10.520 --> 0:51:12.840 professional golf. You go play on Saturday and you're like, 0:51:12.840 --> 0:51:14.759 if I shoot nighty, I shoot nighty, I'm still going 0:51:14.800 --> 0:51:16.560 to collect a check I didn't think I was going 0:51:16.640 --> 0:51:19.759 to get and all I have is upside and he 0:51:19.840 --> 0:51:22.680 caught a day where the conditions were favorable. All he 0:51:22.680 --> 0:51:25.400 could do was just go put stuff more cash into 0:51:25.440 --> 0:51:27.560 his pocket and he shot sixty two. So it was 0:51:27.640 --> 0:51:28.080 that was cool. 0:51:28.080 --> 0:51:31.920 It was great round a notorious gambler, as you described, 0:51:31.960 --> 0:51:33.160 playing with house money. 0:51:33.400 --> 0:51:37.000 House money. It's house money. You put the chips on 0:51:37.040 --> 0:51:39.080 the table and they can't take any away. All they 0:51:39.080 --> 0:51:41.640 can do is add to your stack. You don't have 0:51:41.719 --> 0:51:45.200 to be a professional gambler quasi professional gambler to know 0:51:45.239 --> 0:51:45.959 that's a good deal. 0:51:46.760 --> 0:51:49.360 All right, So back to the subject in hand. Sorry 0:51:49.400 --> 0:51:52.480 for the quick quick divergence. I just was listening to 0:51:52.560 --> 0:51:57.080 your talk and thinking about the about the feeling on 0:51:57.160 --> 0:52:01.840 Saturday you had probably why do you think some tour 0:52:01.960 --> 0:52:05.760 pros are so adamantly opposed to the rollback? 0:52:06.280 --> 0:52:10.080 People just are generally hardwired to oppose change. A lot 0:52:10.080 --> 0:52:13.680 of a lot of people. And if you are on 0:52:13.719 --> 0:52:16.520 the PGA tour currently, you have the best job in 0:52:16.560 --> 0:52:19.560 the world. You've worked you know, you've worked your ass 0:52:19.560 --> 0:52:22.120 off to get that job. You've built a skill set, 0:52:22.200 --> 0:52:26.680 so anything that could potentially throw that off kilter is 0:52:27.440 --> 0:52:29.640 probably a little concerning, and I could see how there 0:52:29.640 --> 0:52:30.520 would be pushback. 0:52:31.239 --> 0:52:34.399 Do you think there's any credence to or you know, 0:52:35.000 --> 0:52:38.880 could explain how these guys are saying that the rollback 0:52:38.920 --> 0:52:41.480 will hurt the product? Do you think there's any validity 0:52:41.520 --> 0:52:41.759 to that. 0:52:42.440 --> 0:52:44.279 I don't think so. I think if the ball was 0:52:44.320 --> 0:52:47.080 going to go two hundred and forty yards, it might 0:52:47.200 --> 0:52:51.440 hurt the product. But I think there is a very 0:52:51.520 --> 0:52:57.480 large disconnect between the reason people play golf. There's golf 0:52:57.560 --> 0:53:00.080 and then there's professional golf in the PGA Tour, in 0:53:00.120 --> 0:53:02.800 the LPGA Tour, and I think we tend to mash 0:53:02.840 --> 0:53:05.920 those up too much. Most people go to the golf course, 0:53:05.960 --> 0:53:08.520 invest their time and their money because they enjoy playing 0:53:08.560 --> 0:53:11.120 the game of golf. And that has nothing to do 0:53:11.239 --> 0:53:13.840 really with what happens on Sunday on the PGA or 0:53:13.960 --> 0:53:17.719 LPGA Tour. And look at this COVID golf boom, Like, 0:53:18.719 --> 0:53:20.839 first of all, I think it's real. I think a 0:53:20.880 --> 0:53:23.360 lot more people have come into the game of all ages, 0:53:23.400 --> 0:53:26.200 all stripes, all colors, and they're sticking to it. And 0:53:26.680 --> 0:53:29.120 what happened on the LPGA or PGA Tour that could 0:53:29.120 --> 0:53:33.520 explain that nothing. Nothing's different. There's some stars in the game, 0:53:34.000 --> 0:53:37.680 there are some great players. Nothing is that considerably different. 0:53:37.680 --> 0:53:39.040 If this was going to happen, you would have said 0:53:39.040 --> 0:53:41.880 it would have happened with Tiger Woods, not rom or Scheffler, 0:53:41.920 --> 0:53:43.840 who are the best players in the game. Now, what 0:53:43.960 --> 0:53:46.759 happened is people had time. People had time to go 0:53:46.920 --> 0:53:49.880 try golf, and they had flexibility with their work life, 0:53:50.200 --> 0:53:52.839 and they loved the game. They didn't say like, oh 0:53:52.880 --> 0:53:55.760 my gosh, like did you see the Honda Classic this weekend, 0:53:55.800 --> 0:53:59.160 I'm going to go take up golf. That didn't happen. Now, 0:53:59.200 --> 0:54:01.600 once they do take up golf, they do enjoy watching 0:54:01.640 --> 0:54:04.359 the tour and the LPGA Tour, because once you've hit 0:54:04.360 --> 0:54:07.040 a few golf balls yourself, it is amazing to see 0:54:07.560 --> 0:54:11.279 what the tour players can do, and the competition is 0:54:11.320 --> 0:54:14.800 really compelling. But I don't think it hurts the product 0:54:15.320 --> 0:54:15.759 at all. 0:54:16.239 --> 0:54:19.359 You know, it's a pretty small reduction. It's five to 0:54:19.400 --> 0:54:23.799 ten percent, and you you could call me, I mean, 0:54:23.840 --> 0:54:26.480 I'm in my late I'm getting towards my late thirties. 0:54:26.520 --> 0:54:29.000 Now you could call me an old fuddy duddy or whatever. 0:54:29.360 --> 0:54:32.120 I feel like I move the ball pretty well. Myself 0:54:32.160 --> 0:54:35.359 off the tee. One thing I noticed is I think 0:54:35.440 --> 0:54:39.360 this actually could help the product from like spectating in person. 0:54:39.640 --> 0:54:42.600 I'll never forget at the Ryder Cup at Whistling Straights, 0:54:42.920 --> 0:54:46.120 I was like having trouble picking up Bryson's ball off 0:54:46.160 --> 0:54:50.160 the tee because it was going so fast, like you know, 0:54:50.280 --> 0:54:54.440 to a certain extent, I think that the product in 0:54:54.560 --> 0:54:58.800 person could be like I'll never forget, you know, watching 0:54:58.800 --> 0:55:02.080 a Honda Classic and in the early two thousands, and 0:55:02.400 --> 0:55:05.920 I sat behind a te box all day and the 0:55:06.120 --> 0:55:10.120 distance of the ball wasn't traveling, wasn't what made me unbelievable. 0:55:10.400 --> 0:55:13.919 I'll never forget VJ saying walking up to the tee 0:55:14.520 --> 0:55:17.440 like he had that you know that saunter right, and 0:55:17.480 --> 0:55:20.320 he gets up to the tee and just the prodigious 0:55:21.280 --> 0:55:23.880 height that he hit the ball, Like the way the 0:55:23.920 --> 0:55:28.240 ball launched off the face. It seems to me nothing 0:55:28.280 --> 0:55:32.120 about that is changing with a five to ten percent 0:55:32.200 --> 0:55:35.920 reduction in distance, like the launch angle, all of that 0:55:36.200 --> 0:55:39.920 is staying the same. That's what is super impressive. There's 0:55:39.960 --> 0:55:42.439 no way to gauge if a ball is flying three 0:55:42.560 --> 0:55:45.759 hundred and ten yards or three hundred yards, whether you're 0:55:45.840 --> 0:55:50.719 in person or you're watching on TV. It is more 0:55:50.920 --> 0:55:54.040 about the way the ball comes off the face. And 0:55:54.080 --> 0:55:56.640 I I think a question I would have is like 0:55:57.320 --> 0:56:00.000 how far would have been too far from your perspective 0:56:00.120 --> 0:56:02.719 of as a tour player, because I think that this 0:56:02.920 --> 0:56:06.080 is almost feels like and it seemed like it was 0:56:06.120 --> 0:56:08.280 almost admitted to be a band aid solution. 0:56:09.040 --> 0:56:09.960 Yeah, I think you're right. 0:56:10.040 --> 0:56:12.680 First of all, I remember going to tour events as 0:56:12.680 --> 0:56:16.920 a kid and being shocked at the driving range at 0:56:16.920 --> 0:56:21.600 how they just clipped every shot so pure, like every 0:56:21.719 --> 0:56:25.359 single shot was perfect. And that's my vivid memory of 0:56:25.400 --> 0:56:28.080 watching golf as a kid, like going to tour events 0:56:28.080 --> 0:56:30.239 and el my aunt plate on the LPGA, so I 0:56:30.280 --> 0:56:32.239 would go watch her hit golf balls when I was 0:56:32.239 --> 0:56:34.600 a kid, and I was like, she just hits every 0:56:34.600 --> 0:56:37.400 shot perfect. And as a PGA tour player, you do 0:56:37.440 --> 0:56:40.560 a corporate clinic and like you could roll straight out 0:56:40.560 --> 0:56:42.600 of the car, grab a seven iron and hit a 0:56:42.640 --> 0:56:45.080 seven iron that to me felt like chunky and stiff 0:56:45.080 --> 0:56:48.200 and wasn't any good. And every single person on that 0:56:48.280 --> 0:56:50.600 range at that clinic is like, oh my gosh, effort, 0:56:50.680 --> 0:56:54.399 Like look at that shot, what a perfect golf shot. Right, 0:56:54.840 --> 0:56:58.560 so that that doesn't affect the product at all. That 0:56:58.600 --> 0:57:02.120 the ball goes ten percent, I think it could make 0:57:02.120 --> 0:57:05.520 the product better because I was watching Sawgrass this weekend 0:57:05.520 --> 0:57:07.960 in the most compelling hole other than seventeen, which is 0:57:07.960 --> 0:57:11.480 obviously amazing to watch when it's windy, but sixteen is 0:57:11.520 --> 0:57:14.080 the most fun hole to watch because they're all hitting 0:57:14.880 --> 0:57:18.000 like two hundred to two hundred and twenty yard second shots, 0:57:18.040 --> 0:57:21.600 which is what you used to hit into a par 0:57:21.760 --> 0:57:25.840 four occasionally, maybe once or twice around, and golf is 0:57:25.880 --> 0:57:29.120 still really hard from that distance, Like so few guys 0:57:29.120 --> 0:57:31.680 were hitting the green, they were bailing out, left not 0:57:31.800 --> 0:57:34.560 many in the water. But if you can start putting 0:57:34.640 --> 0:57:37.240 some six irons and five irons back in players' hands, 0:57:38.000 --> 0:57:40.760 I think that the product gets better because it's just 0:57:40.840 --> 0:57:45.120 more interesting than driver wedge. So to answer how much 0:57:45.160 --> 0:57:47.560 would have been too much, I don't think you need 0:57:47.600 --> 0:57:51.080 to go back to you know, the long hitters today 0:57:51.360 --> 0:57:55.360 carry the ball three hundred to three hundred and ten yards, 0:57:55.840 --> 0:57:59.520 and I think if it flies to eighty or two ninety, great. 0:57:59.560 --> 0:58:01.720 I don't think taking them to hitting at two sixty, 0:58:01.800 --> 0:58:04.200 like you're you know, that's too much to do at 0:58:04.200 --> 0:58:07.720 one time. But it's just it's just gotten so crazy, 0:58:07.800 --> 0:58:11.160 like you know, ball speeds of one seventy with three 0:58:11.200 --> 0:58:14.320 woods now and Min Wu Lee hit an iron that 0:58:14.360 --> 0:58:17.400 had a one to seventy two ball speed, Like, I 0:58:17.480 --> 0:58:20.200 don't think we're going too far here, folks, Like it's 0:58:20.200 --> 0:58:20.800 I don't think so. 0:58:21.560 --> 0:58:25.520 Yeah. I kind of come to thinking about like four 0:58:25.640 --> 0:58:29.560 hundred and eighty yard par fours as like what they've 0:58:29.600 --> 0:58:34.680 become has been. It's crazy that like they've become, you know, 0:58:35.000 --> 0:58:39.800 just say normal conditions, no crazy wind nothing. You're talking 0:58:39.800 --> 0:58:43.960 about long hitters hitting driver nine iron, Yeah, maybe driver wedge. 0:58:44.640 --> 0:58:47.600 You're talking about like middle of the road PGA Tour 0:58:47.640 --> 0:58:52.280 players is driver seven iron yep, And to be that's 0:58:52.440 --> 0:58:56.400 that's wild. Four hundred and eighty yards like what I remember, 0:58:56.680 --> 0:58:59.120 And I don't want this to be like a nostalgia, 0:58:59.160 --> 0:59:01.000 but I remember as a kid. We're about the same 0:59:01.080 --> 0:59:03.680 age I remember as a kid, like four hundred and 0:59:03.800 --> 0:59:06.000 fifty yards when I was in high school was like 0:59:06.040 --> 0:59:08.840 a beast, you know. And you and I think the 0:59:09.040 --> 0:59:12.479 USA did a nice job today talking about it, talking 0:59:12.520 --> 0:59:15.680 about we've been out at the junior tournaments, like we 0:59:16.080 --> 0:59:19.040 go to the Junior am we see what is going on, 0:59:19.240 --> 0:59:22.920 because like it's so drastically different when you watch the 0:59:22.960 --> 0:59:26.960 amateur and junior level to the early two thousands, which 0:59:27.000 --> 0:59:28.919 is really where it kind of feels like they're trying 0:59:28.920 --> 0:59:31.160 to push it back to than it is now. 0:59:31.480 --> 0:59:35.440 You know, yeah, totally. And the so I've seen the 0:59:35.480 --> 0:59:38.560 Instagram videos of like the speed training that kids are doing. 0:59:38.600 --> 0:59:40.920 There's that one coach he gets like four kids at 0:59:40.920 --> 0:59:42.600 a time and they're lined up on a mat and 0:59:42.600 --> 0:59:46.400 they're doing like step by step speed training. It's like, oh, well, 0:59:46.760 --> 0:59:49.240 you know, athletes are better and they're training better. Okay, fine, 0:59:49.400 --> 0:59:51.960 But it's the USGA's job to protect the game. It's 0:59:52.000 --> 0:59:53.680 to write the rules of the game so that the 0:59:53.760 --> 0:59:56.600 game is played in the spirit of the game. And 0:59:56.760 --> 0:59:59.480 we made up the rules to start with, like so 0:59:59.520 --> 1:00:03.440 we can right. And I think the game was designed 1:00:03.440 --> 1:00:05.920 to be played with a multitude of shots, and that 1:00:05.960 --> 1:00:09.600 has gone away because of the long distances. So let's 1:00:10.000 --> 1:00:12.840 make it more interesting through the bag and let's make 1:00:12.880 --> 1:00:15.840 the courses play like they're designed to. I heard that 1:00:16.280 --> 1:00:18.760 I've never played at LACC, but I was talking to 1:00:18.800 --> 1:00:21.640 Bryce Molder the other day who played on tour, and 1:00:22.200 --> 1:00:24.040 he goes over there for work now a good bit 1:00:24.120 --> 1:00:26.080 and has played there a bunch, and he said the 1:00:26.120 --> 1:00:29.320 back nine is like over forty five hundred yards or something. 1:00:29.360 --> 1:00:31.440 He said, there can be four. There's like four. He's like, 1:00:31.440 --> 1:00:33.400 I don't know where they'll put the t's, but there 1:00:33.440 --> 1:00:36.880 are four or five par fours that are five point fifty. Like, 1:00:37.320 --> 1:00:42.200 that's not normal, that's not possible most places. Obviously Augusta 1:00:42.280 --> 1:00:45.240 did the big deal at thirteen this year, but that's 1:00:45.280 --> 1:00:47.440 not going to be possible all over that golf course. 1:00:47.880 --> 1:00:49.760 So I think this is the right move. 1:00:50.360 --> 1:00:54.400 What type of player do you think will be most 1:00:54.440 --> 1:00:58.960 advantaged and most disadvantaged by let's just say to use 1:00:58.960 --> 1:01:02.040 a blanket fifteen twenty yard reduction in distance. 1:01:02.840 --> 1:01:06.520 I don't think it shuffles the world ranking hardly at all. 1:01:07.080 --> 1:01:09.640 I think that everyone is going to hit it shorter. 1:01:10.320 --> 1:01:12.880 The best strikers are still the best strikers, the best 1:01:12.880 --> 1:01:16.600 putters are still the best putters. I just think it 1:01:16.680 --> 1:01:18.960 makes the gameplay more interesting. 1:01:19.200 --> 1:01:22.920 And more interesting. From your standpoint, is a wider variety 1:01:23.200 --> 1:01:24.920 of clubs hit into the green? 1:01:25.520 --> 1:01:26.760 That's right? Yeah. 1:01:27.520 --> 1:01:30.840 Strategically, I mean you played in the era where like 1:01:31.160 --> 1:01:34.400 strategy became a big thing on tour. And the strategy 1:01:34.480 --> 1:01:37.800 is not from like the romantic golf architecture standpoint, hitting 1:01:37.800 --> 1:01:41.520 it to certain sides of the fairway. Strategy is if 1:01:41.560 --> 1:01:43.880 I can hit a driver and push it up there 1:01:44.040 --> 1:01:47.240 without it getting going into a hazard, that is the 1:01:47.240 --> 1:01:50.040 best idea for the best thing for me to do, 1:01:50.400 --> 1:01:53.600 you know, versus laying back and hitting it from the fairway. 1:01:53.800 --> 1:01:57.600 For the most part, the idea of pushing driver, what 1:01:57.680 --> 1:02:01.240 do you think you know? Obviously that is and I 1:02:01.320 --> 1:02:05.720 think my big question with this is does that change 1:02:05.720 --> 1:02:08.440 if all of a sudden, instead of pushing it up 1:02:08.480 --> 1:02:12.400 to a wedge, I'm pushing it up to a eight 1:02:12.520 --> 1:02:15.920 or seven iron versus I could take a five iron 1:02:16.040 --> 1:02:19.240 in the fairway, or versus a say a seven iron 1:02:19.280 --> 1:02:22.919 in the wedge standpoint, Do you think that has any 1:02:23.120 --> 1:02:27.080 I could have any strategic impact the shorter driving distance. 1:02:27.680 --> 1:02:30.760 That's a good question, and i'd actually I'm not the 1:02:30.800 --> 1:02:33.480 best person to answer this. I was not a super 1:02:33.480 --> 1:02:36.080 stats guru. I mean that was coming online when I 1:02:36.160 --> 1:02:38.800 was on tour. You might know more about it and 1:02:38.840 --> 1:02:40.280 have more conversations about it. 1:02:40.320 --> 1:02:42.000 But I think part of. 1:02:41.920 --> 1:02:43.520 That, like hit it as close to the green as 1:02:43.560 --> 1:02:46.360 possible was driven by there were just more players that 1:02:46.400 --> 1:02:49.640 could hit it really far, Like there just wasn't a 1:02:49.680 --> 1:02:52.080 three to twenty shot in the bag for most guys 1:02:52.120 --> 1:02:55.400 on tour in twenty ten, right, and then as more 1:02:55.440 --> 1:02:57.480 of those guys came on tour that became an option. 1:02:57.520 --> 1:02:59.720 They had decide how they wanted to play the golf courses. 1:03:00.440 --> 1:03:05.560 So so it's hard to answer whether that strategy will 1:03:05.600 --> 1:03:09.360 really change. I do know that driving it straight, I 1:03:09.400 --> 1:03:12.680 know you're big on the driver face and you know, 1:03:12.720 --> 1:03:15.560 go going to a smaller driver that's less forgiving. I 1:03:15.600 --> 1:03:17.760 think it's still pretty easy to hit the driver crooked. 1:03:18.200 --> 1:03:21.760 It really is like you saw it at Bayhill. On 1:03:22.200 --> 1:03:25.200 these are the last two tournaments I watched. Nobody could 1:03:25.240 --> 1:03:28.000 hit that sixteenth fairway and when it mattered on sixteen 1:03:28.040 --> 1:03:30.480 and eighteen it was really hard to hit it straight, 1:03:30.720 --> 1:03:32.960 and fifteen was the same way, like guys were not 1:03:33.040 --> 1:03:36.280 hitting it straight coming down the stretch. And Rory, you know, 1:03:36.280 --> 1:03:38.360 whether he's having a hard time finding a driver or 1:03:38.440 --> 1:03:41.080 just wasn't swinging his driver great. At TPC he missed 1:03:41.120 --> 1:03:45.440 the cup by eight shots. So it's still very possible 1:03:45.480 --> 1:03:48.480 to hit a crooked t shot in today's world, with 1:03:48.600 --> 1:03:50.160 today's equipment, do. 1:03:50.160 --> 1:03:53.240 You think it would be advantageous to have less forgiveness 1:03:53.280 --> 1:03:56.720 in drivers? Do you think the driver spec not addressing 1:03:56.760 --> 1:04:01.280 any driver specs equipment specs is a miss or do 1:04:01.320 --> 1:04:03.800 you think they got it right by not touching anything 1:04:03.840 --> 1:04:04.160 with that. 1:04:05.280 --> 1:04:10.000 I think that that would potentially change the world ranking 1:04:10.040 --> 1:04:12.880 a little bit more than changing the golf, like just 1:04:12.920 --> 1:04:16.960 having the ballgo twenty yards shorter for everyone, I think 1:04:17.240 --> 1:04:20.400 the same skills still matter. I do think that if 1:04:20.400 --> 1:04:24.240 you change the forgiveness of drivers or clubs, I mean, 1:04:24.280 --> 1:04:26.280 I think it's pretty obvious that if you put like 1:04:26.800 --> 1:04:29.200 a small headed driver and everyone on tour had to 1:04:29.240 --> 1:04:31.600 play straight blades and you had to carry a three 1:04:31.640 --> 1:04:33.520 wood and then a two iron and a three iron 1:04:33.560 --> 1:04:36.800 and a four iron, that some play the world rankings 1:04:36.840 --> 1:04:39.520 would shuffle a little bit, Like a really pure striker 1:04:39.600 --> 1:04:42.440 would rise up. They're already at the top, right, Like 1:04:42.480 --> 1:04:44.520 the same top five would be the same top five, 1:04:44.880 --> 1:04:47.560 but kind of that, like Adam Scott would go from 1:04:47.800 --> 1:04:50.280 twenty fifth in the world to like sixth in the world, 1:04:50.440 --> 1:04:52.960 right because he's just an absolute flusher. And I mean 1:04:53.040 --> 1:04:55.120 Rory said this before, where He's like, if a hybrid 1:04:55.160 --> 1:04:58.040 wasn't invented, I separate from the field even more because 1:04:58.080 --> 1:05:00.240 I can hit a three iron up my nose. Now, 1:05:00.280 --> 1:05:03.240 a guy like me, a low speed guy from two forty, 1:05:03.280 --> 1:05:05.040 I can hit a hybrid or a five wood, and 1:05:05.280 --> 1:05:07.600 I was pretty good with a five wood, right, Rory's 1:05:07.600 --> 1:05:10.960 three iron is more impressive. But actually I would bet that, like, 1:05:11.320 --> 1:05:13.800 give me a hundred balls versus Rory's three iron. My 1:05:13.920 --> 1:05:17.080 five wood pretty decent. But if we're if we're all 1:05:17.120 --> 1:05:20.120 playing straight blades and it goes back to less forgiving clubs, 1:05:20.200 --> 1:05:21.920 he's going to outrun me really fast. 1:05:22.400 --> 1:05:25.240 Yeah, that's the thing. And you see Rory play great, 1:05:25.400 --> 1:05:27.480 like he didn't have his a game. He almost won 1:05:27.520 --> 1:05:30.280 bay Hill. And one of the reasons that he plays 1:05:30.320 --> 1:05:32.680 great at bay Hill is that that's one of the 1:05:32.760 --> 1:05:37.680 few courses that requires you hit six or seven long 1:05:37.720 --> 1:05:40.920 irons there. And I mean, I wrote about this in 1:05:40.960 --> 1:05:43.400 the Fridak newsletter. It paid me to write about it. 1:05:43.400 --> 1:05:46.360 But like it gives bay Hill actually an identity is 1:05:46.400 --> 1:05:49.200 the lack of variety in the golf course is unique 1:05:49.240 --> 1:05:51.600 because it's like, oh, these guys have to hit a 1:05:51.640 --> 1:05:54.479 ton of long irons. And like Bryson played well there. 1:05:54.600 --> 1:05:57.160 Bryson was a great long iron player, Like you know, 1:05:57.200 --> 1:06:00.560 everybody talked about his distance off the tee. He's always 1:06:00.640 --> 1:06:03.880 been a great long iron player. And it's interesting when 1:06:03.880 --> 1:06:06.360 you start to think about the game a little bit 1:06:06.480 --> 1:06:10.640 differently in terms of like finding the center and having 1:06:10.680 --> 1:06:14.200 long irons, it really drastically. I think that's what you know, 1:06:14.280 --> 1:06:17.320 people that long for the game of the seventies, that's 1:06:17.320 --> 1:06:20.440 what they longed for, is the idea that the greatest 1:06:20.440 --> 1:06:23.000 skill in the game is the ability to hit that 1:06:23.200 --> 1:06:25.280 towering long iron. Yeah. 1:06:25.560 --> 1:06:29.560 I agree with that, and you know, I think it's 1:06:29.600 --> 1:06:33.160 still rewarded. It really is, And like the height part 1:06:33.200 --> 1:06:37.480 is really probably underrated and under talked about. Like I 1:06:37.600 --> 1:06:41.120 was reasonably successful tour player and played well on hard 1:06:41.160 --> 1:06:44.760 courses and was on the shorter half of the spectrum. 1:06:44.800 --> 1:06:46.960 I mean, became really short, but when I started, I 1:06:47.000 --> 1:06:48.800 was kind of in the middle, and then I steadily 1:06:49.160 --> 1:06:51.040 moved down in distance. But the main reason was I 1:06:51.040 --> 1:06:54.160 could hit it high. I really could hit high shots 1:06:54.280 --> 1:06:58.200 with four, five, six, seven irons, and it was a 1:06:58.200 --> 1:07:01.640 big advantage on hard golf courses. And you know, if 1:07:01.680 --> 1:07:03.960 you add distance to that, now you're really cooking. 1:07:04.160 --> 1:07:06.280 With a shorter I don't know if you're there. You're 1:07:06.280 --> 1:07:08.800 an edgiteer, so this might be right up your wheelhouse. 1:07:08.800 --> 1:07:11.680 With the ball going shorter, do you think there will 1:07:11.680 --> 1:07:13.680 be a push for a little bit more spin in 1:07:13.720 --> 1:07:17.080 the ball because you're going to have longer shots into greens, 1:07:17.240 --> 1:07:18.320 into firm greens. 1:07:18.760 --> 1:07:22.480 That's possible, It's very possible you. I mean again, you 1:07:22.520 --> 1:07:26.160 saw that on sixteen at Sawgrass this week that whole 1:07:26.520 --> 1:07:28.680 once it rained on the weekend, it wasn't so much, 1:07:28.720 --> 1:07:30.959 but it was hard for them to hold that green 1:07:31.040 --> 1:07:33.640 with that two and twenty yard type shot. 1:07:34.840 --> 1:07:39.520 Last question, if you're the tour, is there any real 1:07:39.600 --> 1:07:44.040 thought to rejecting this from the USGA and saying no, 1:07:44.160 --> 1:07:45.720 we're going to play by our rules. 1:07:47.000 --> 1:07:49.720 I don't see what the upside would be to that. 1:07:49.920 --> 1:07:54.080 The governing bodies, the Tour, the RNA, you know, the 1:07:54.080 --> 1:07:57.160 PGA of America, they all have a really good relationship. 1:07:57.240 --> 1:08:00.600 I think they've kind of walked in locks that probably 1:08:00.600 --> 1:08:02.280 more than ever of the last few years. 1:08:02.960 --> 1:08:03.760 I don't see. 1:08:04.200 --> 1:08:07.080 I'm sure they've all been in communication throughout this whole time. 1:08:07.840 --> 1:08:10.360 I would be very surprised if that was the case, 1:08:10.400 --> 1:08:12.400 but that's just my take. 1:08:13.640 --> 1:08:16.360 All right, Roberto, thanks for coming on. You've got a 1:08:16.400 --> 1:08:19.599 podcast that everybody can check out. The Course record show. 1:08:19.720 --> 1:08:23.240 I listened to podcasts and to prepare for my interview 1:08:23.240 --> 1:08:26.840 with Joe Ogilvy that was last week. That was fantastic. 1:08:27.160 --> 1:08:28.920 Anything new with your show. 1:08:29.400 --> 1:08:31.639 No, we just were focusing on the business of golf, 1:08:31.720 --> 1:08:35.600 so you had Joe to talk about the tour regulations 1:08:35.640 --> 1:08:38.920 and field sizes. We picked some golf companies and ran 1:08:39.000 --> 1:08:41.519 through who owns them, whether Joe would buy or sell 1:08:41.560 --> 1:08:45.080 as a professional investor, so we will be always kind 1:08:45.080 --> 1:08:47.400 of looking at the business side of the golf industry. 1:08:48.040 --> 1:08:51.839 Yeah, it's a worth I love love checking the episodes 1:08:51.880 --> 1:08:55.120 out and listening. It's a definitely a unique podcast, which 1:08:55.160 --> 1:08:57.720 is the most important thing in a crowded space is 1:08:58.040 --> 1:09:02.120 you've got a very unique angle and obviously a very 1:09:02.400 --> 1:09:05.880 unique perspective being somebody that's been very deeply entrenched in 1:09:05.960 --> 1:09:09.320 the game of golf. So highly recommend everybody go check 1:09:09.360 --> 1:09:11.439 out your show. And thanks for coming on to talk 1:09:11.439 --> 1:09:11.800 about this. 1:09:12.320 --> 1:09:13.519 All right, Andy, good talking to you. 1:09:23.479 --> 1:09:23.800 All right. 1:09:23.880 --> 1:09:28.480 Joseph, you are i would say, an advisor for strategy 1:09:28.880 --> 1:09:32.479 with top end players, you know, at the amateur ranks, 1:09:32.560 --> 1:09:36.240 the developmental tour ranks, the PGA Tour ranks. You really, 1:09:36.760 --> 1:09:38.439 you know, one of the things that you do is 1:09:38.560 --> 1:09:41.240 advise them on how to play a golf course, I 1:09:41.600 --> 1:09:43.680 you know, to kick things off. I think, you know, 1:09:43.720 --> 1:09:46.200 I think a lot of people might understand this, but 1:09:47.080 --> 1:09:53.680 maybe give it a you know, explanation on how the 1:09:53.960 --> 1:09:59.040 distance gains and power has impacted strategy in golf as 1:09:59.080 --> 1:10:00.479 of you know today. 1:10:01.280 --> 1:10:03.880 Okay, yeah, a lot's unpacked there. I'll try to keep 1:10:03.920 --> 1:10:08.839 it as succinct as possible. I think the as data 1:10:09.080 --> 1:10:14.120 has become more advanced, especially with the shot link system 1:10:14.160 --> 1:10:17.840 that was put in on the tour almost two decades ago, 1:10:18.400 --> 1:10:22.160 and strokes gained Mark Brody's invention, there have been a 1:10:22.200 --> 1:10:25.559 lot of insights drawn that prior to that point you 1:10:25.560 --> 1:10:29.360 would have had to just hypothesize. Now we know, right, 1:10:29.439 --> 1:10:32.400 distance is one of the most reliable advantages on tour. 1:10:33.240 --> 1:10:35.120 You're going to hit the ball. You might not hit 1:10:35.160 --> 1:10:37.040 the ball straight every day, but if you're a long hitter, 1:10:37.120 --> 1:10:39.479 you're gonna hit the ball long every day. So a 1:10:39.520 --> 1:10:43.320 lot of players have chased swing speed because they know 1:10:43.400 --> 1:10:45.240 that it's one of the most one of the most 1:10:45.280 --> 1:10:48.200 reliable advantages on tour, but there are a lot of 1:10:48.240 --> 1:10:51.559 other advantages on tour that have come from analyzing data, 1:10:52.040 --> 1:10:56.520 being aggressive off the tee, being conservative on your approach targets, 1:10:56.560 --> 1:10:59.920 like taking hazards out of play. There's some over art 1:11:00.280 --> 1:11:05.360 principles that the top end players are adhering to, and 1:11:05.640 --> 1:11:08.760 I would say overall strategies, players are getting better and 1:11:08.800 --> 1:11:12.360 better about strategy as the years go by. Whole Tenant 1:11:12.400 --> 1:11:14.679 Rivier is a great example, and they've shown those graphics 1:11:14.680 --> 1:11:17.720 where ten fifteen years ago a lot of players were 1:11:17.760 --> 1:11:20.240 laying up. Now everyone's going for it, and part of 1:11:20.280 --> 1:11:22.719 that's equipment, which I'm sure we'll touch on today. 1:11:23.240 --> 1:11:27.040 So the idea is that the further you can hit it, 1:11:27.080 --> 1:11:30.080 the closer you can get, and the easier the game 1:11:30.160 --> 1:11:35.080 gets from there, the basic hypothesis, assuming you don't hit 1:11:35.120 --> 1:11:39.240 it into a trap or a water hazard. 1:11:39.720 --> 1:11:43.040 I think that's a simple way of looking at it. 1:11:43.080 --> 1:11:47.360 But I think the key insight is more that when 1:11:47.400 --> 1:11:49.479 you lay back with like a three wood or an 1:11:49.479 --> 1:11:54.519 iron off the tee to the difference between your chance 1:11:54.560 --> 1:11:58.719 of hitting the fair way is outweighed by the distance 1:11:58.760 --> 1:12:01.040 gain of hitting a dry and so a lot of 1:12:01.040 --> 1:12:04.280 people historically thought, Okay, laid back with three wood because 1:12:04.960 --> 1:12:07.040 you're going to hit the fairway versus a driver, you're 1:12:07.040 --> 1:12:09.200 not going to hit the fairway. But that's a reductive 1:12:09.240 --> 1:12:11.320 way to look at it. And if you actually compare 1:12:11.640 --> 1:12:13.719 your chance of hitting the fairway with a driver versus 1:12:13.720 --> 1:12:17.080 a three wood, you'll quickly arrive at the conclusion that 1:12:17.160 --> 1:12:20.400 the driver is the better play. I'm simplifying a little bit, 1:12:20.439 --> 1:12:23.240 but that's the main that's driving a lot of the 1:12:23.320 --> 1:12:24.439 decisions the players are making. 1:12:25.360 --> 1:12:28.839 So with that in mind, just you know, a basis 1:12:29.080 --> 1:12:32.680 understanding of the strategy. With that in mind, you know, 1:12:32.760 --> 1:12:38.120 the USGA has proposed these changes here. Now, if we 1:12:38.160 --> 1:12:42.839 remove say fifteen to twenty yards off of t shots, 1:12:43.040 --> 1:12:46.200 and obviously there's going to be some trickle down irons 1:12:46.240 --> 1:12:49.880 are going to go shorter to not as much. Will 1:12:50.680 --> 1:12:56.480 strategy fundamentally change on the PGA tour fundamentally? 1:12:56.640 --> 1:12:57.479 Absolutely not. 1:12:57.920 --> 1:13:01.440 All the same concepts are going to apply in practice, 1:13:01.479 --> 1:13:04.880 Like are there going to be small modifications to how 1:13:04.920 --> 1:13:06.800 players play certain holes? 1:13:06.800 --> 1:13:09.200 What kind of shots they still like? Yeah? I think so. 1:13:09.560 --> 1:13:11.360 And there's a lot of unknowns, right, we need to 1:13:11.400 --> 1:13:15.200 see how this new ball reacts. But there will be 1:13:15.240 --> 1:13:17.960 some small differences. I think to say that, oh wow, 1:13:18.000 --> 1:13:20.120 now players are going to start playing golf courses completely 1:13:20.120 --> 1:13:22.080 differently would be a huge overstatem and it's not going 1:13:22.160 --> 1:13:23.040 to change very much. 1:13:24.080 --> 1:13:27.360 How do you see more nuanced? What are things that 1:13:27.439 --> 1:13:30.880 you look at with this and think, oh wow, that 1:13:31.000 --> 1:13:31.880 might be different? 1:13:32.920 --> 1:13:33.160 Yeah? 1:13:33.200 --> 1:13:36.160 I mean I think approach targets will be interesting because 1:13:37.760 --> 1:13:40.639 long irons, generally players are getting really conservative with their 1:13:40.640 --> 1:13:42.720 targets right, And the reason for that is that your 1:13:42.720 --> 1:13:46.280 dispersion patterns pretty wide. With a long iron versus a wedge, 1:13:47.600 --> 1:13:49.360 you can get a little bit more aggressive because you 1:13:49.360 --> 1:13:52.920 have a tighter dispersion pattern. So now we'll just have 1:13:53.000 --> 1:13:56.479 to see how those dispersion patterns change when you're hitting 1:13:56.520 --> 1:13:59.080 the ball a little bit shorter and what is a 1:13:59.120 --> 1:14:02.360 long iron disp pattern versus a wedge Like, There'll just 1:14:02.400 --> 1:14:03.639 be some small changes there. 1:14:03.880 --> 1:14:04.160 I think. 1:14:04.160 --> 1:14:08.479 The other thing we'll have to see how players off 1:14:08.479 --> 1:14:10.920 the tea dispersion patterns change with a Spinni or ball, 1:14:10.960 --> 1:14:13.800 because if for some reason it's much easier to hit 1:14:13.800 --> 1:14:16.240 a three wood than a driver or something, that could 1:14:16.320 --> 1:14:19.000 change when you hit threewood off the tee versus a driver. 1:14:19.120 --> 1:14:22.040 I don't expect that to be the case, but I 1:14:22.160 --> 1:14:24.360 want to I want to have more information before saying 1:14:24.400 --> 1:14:25.440 anything definitively. 1:14:26.120 --> 1:14:28.799 I was wondering too, you know, and this is something 1:14:28.960 --> 1:14:32.360 like obviously one of the things that's happened. And you explained, 1:14:32.400 --> 1:14:34.519 like you might hit the fairway less when you hit 1:14:34.560 --> 1:14:39.080 a driver than a fairway wood. But the distance, the 1:14:39.120 --> 1:14:41.840 additional distance, the closer you get, like, it's not a 1:14:41.920 --> 1:14:43.920 given that you're going to hit the fairway with a 1:14:43.960 --> 1:14:46.800 three wood if you lay back, how far would that 1:14:46.880 --> 1:14:50.160 pendulum have to change? And does it change with like distance? 1:14:50.320 --> 1:14:52.559 In is it then all of a sudden? Does it 1:14:52.680 --> 1:14:55.719 change with like if I if all of a sudden 1:14:55.760 --> 1:14:58.040 I'm hitting a seven iron out of the rough instead 1:14:58.080 --> 1:15:01.479 of a wedge, then all does that five iron out 1:15:01.479 --> 1:15:04.320 of the fairway look more advantageous than the seven iron 1:15:04.360 --> 1:15:06.120 from the fairway versus wedge? 1:15:06.720 --> 1:15:08.680 It would have to change pretty significantly. 1:15:08.760 --> 1:15:12.480 I think the key here will be does the dispersion 1:15:12.520 --> 1:15:15.000 pattern with the driver versus the three wood? 1:15:15.280 --> 1:15:16.519 Does that gap widen? 1:15:16.560 --> 1:15:21.120 Because it is true that a three wood, generally a 1:15:21.120 --> 1:15:24.920 player's dispersion pattern is tighter. It's not just that a 1:15:25.000 --> 1:15:28.160 driver goes farther, which is why you miss fairways more often. 1:15:28.240 --> 1:15:31.120 Your dispersion pattern is actually wider with a driver, not 1:15:31.160 --> 1:15:35.240 just distance, actual dispersion. So if that were two, if 1:15:35.800 --> 1:15:39.000 the difference between driver and three wood work to significantly widen, 1:15:39.520 --> 1:15:43.160 then you'd derive in more situations where three wood's the 1:15:43.200 --> 1:15:46.879 better play, especially if a fairway narrows where your driver's 1:15:46.920 --> 1:15:49.960 going to end up. That's true. If those dispersion patterns 1:15:50.000 --> 1:15:53.559 don't really change, I don't expect there to be much 1:15:53.560 --> 1:15:56.680 of an off the tee club selection, any any kind 1:15:56.720 --> 1:15:59.439 of fundamental shifts in how players are thinking about that. 1:15:59.560 --> 1:16:02.400 So we're just gonna have to see. But if drivers 1:16:02.560 --> 1:16:06.120 in three woods kind of have the same ish dispersion 1:16:06.120 --> 1:16:08.640 patterns as before, then now I don't think that's going 1:16:08.680 --> 1:16:09.200 to come into play. 1:16:09.200 --> 1:16:10.799 I think players are going to keep being pretty aggressive 1:16:10.800 --> 1:16:11.160 with driver. 1:16:11.760 --> 1:16:14.799 So the way the fundamentally the way we see guys 1:16:15.400 --> 1:16:20.120 play golf should stay pretty similar from a strategic standpoint. 1:16:20.160 --> 1:16:23.880 With this this rollback, what type of rollback would you 1:16:23.920 --> 1:16:28.360 say you would need to see to have a significant change. 1:16:28.960 --> 1:16:31.559 Yeah, I don't I'm not enough of an expert on 1:16:31.640 --> 1:16:34.120 some of the specifics of what you could do. But 1:16:34.280 --> 1:16:39.320 for example, if the driver, if the sweet spot was smaller, 1:16:39.400 --> 1:16:43.200 and your just dispersion patterns started to get pretty wide 1:16:43.880 --> 1:16:45.840 with driver because you have to hit it in the 1:16:45.840 --> 1:16:48.080 center of the face, then it would bring more three 1:16:48.080 --> 1:16:51.160 woods into playoff the tee again, especially if the fairway 1:16:51.200 --> 1:16:54.680 titans where your driver's supposed to go, so that I 1:16:54.680 --> 1:16:57.960 think you'd have to modify the driver most likely. But 1:16:58.160 --> 1:17:00.880 like with a spin of your ball, if you're into 1:17:00.920 --> 1:17:03.840 a significant wind, like, I'm interested in seeing what those 1:17:03.840 --> 1:17:05.880 dispersion patterns look like because that could be an instance 1:17:05.880 --> 1:17:08.400 where hitting three wood may make sense even under these 1:17:08.439 --> 1:17:09.920 regulations that they've proposed. 1:17:10.280 --> 1:17:12.840 So yeah, and I don't know if there's going to 1:17:12.880 --> 1:17:15.360 be a spin your ball, but it would make sense 1:17:15.520 --> 1:17:20.920 possibly if you're hitting longer shots into greens on average, 1:17:21.040 --> 1:17:23.960 that these players might want a little bit more spin, 1:17:24.439 --> 1:17:27.280 especially with how firm some greens get on tour. 1:17:27.720 --> 1:17:29.080 Yeah. Absolutely. 1:17:29.600 --> 1:17:32.080 In terms of just general thoughts, do you have any 1:17:32.200 --> 1:17:36.519 general thoughts on the news today and just you know, 1:17:36.840 --> 1:17:39.280 the conclusions that you've come up with. 1:17:40.400 --> 1:17:43.679 Yeah, I mean, I'm really happy to see something being done. 1:17:44.600 --> 1:17:47.240 The death of the long iron on par fours is 1:17:47.280 --> 1:17:50.040 something that I think you and I both have lamented 1:17:50.080 --> 1:17:52.080 over the time, Like you don't see a lot of 1:17:52.120 --> 1:17:54.280 long iron hit on the PGA tour, And I'm excited 1:17:54.320 --> 1:17:58.120 that even if it's a five percent reduction in distance, 1:17:58.560 --> 1:18:02.040 you're gonna get more irons and fewer you know, more 1:18:02.040 --> 1:18:04.120 wedges turned into a nine iron and eight iron like 1:18:04.160 --> 1:18:08.840 that does introduce more compelling play, even if it doesn't 1:18:08.840 --> 1:18:12.600 have a fundamental impact on how players strategize. 1:18:12.840 --> 1:18:18.240 I mean that that could fundamentally change golf. I don't 1:18:18.320 --> 1:18:22.679 I don't anticipate the top end changing, like the very 1:18:22.800 --> 1:18:27.439 top players having an impact on but you know, if 1:18:27.520 --> 1:18:31.120 you turn wedges into eight irons, like if you tearn 1:18:31.840 --> 1:18:36.440 four wedges into eight irons, and that that could dramatically 1:18:36.760 --> 1:18:39.960 shift some of the prerequisite skills needed in golf. 1:18:40.240 --> 1:18:44.240 Right, I think shipping probably just got a little more important. Right, 1:18:44.800 --> 1:18:47.120 So that's one thing you could just directly point to, 1:18:47.240 --> 1:18:50.120 guys are going to hit fewer greens. The other thing 1:18:50.120 --> 1:18:53.000 that there will be some dialogue around is who does 1:18:53.040 --> 1:18:55.200 this benefit like a long hitter or a short hitter, 1:18:55.720 --> 1:18:59.960 And the consensus seems to be be a jerk reaction, 1:19:00.400 --> 1:19:02.680 the knee jerk reaction. That long hitters are going to 1:19:02.880 --> 1:19:05.920 benefit from this, I'm not sure that I quite see that. 1:19:06.400 --> 1:19:11.280 Padrake Harrington said that. Bryson D. Chambeau kind of said 1:19:11.320 --> 1:19:13.920 the opposite, like this is penalizing me for working so 1:19:14.000 --> 1:19:16.160 hard and hitting it long. I do think this is 1:19:16.160 --> 1:19:20.400 going to benefit shorter hitters based on some theory and 1:19:20.680 --> 1:19:21.479 which holds. 1:19:22.200 --> 1:19:24.919 For example, for example, a short part. 1:19:24.680 --> 1:19:27.800 Four now right, let's say three hundred and thirty yard 1:19:27.880 --> 1:19:31.200 part four, where a guy hits it three point fifteen 1:19:31.280 --> 1:19:33.679 off the tee versus a player who hits it three hundred. 1:19:34.200 --> 1:19:36.680 That player who hits it three fifteen is at a 1:19:36.720 --> 1:19:39.400 significant advantage right now because he can get it within 1:19:39.479 --> 1:19:42.960 ten to fifteen yards of the green, which value of 1:19:43.000 --> 1:19:47.200 distance is really strong. Inside fifty yards, the incremental benefit, 1:19:47.479 --> 1:19:50.479 incremental benefit of having like an extra ten to fifteen 1:19:50.560 --> 1:19:54.519 yards is huge inside fifty yards. As we move that back, 1:19:55.560 --> 1:19:59.000 there's less of a benefit there now. So if a 1:19:59.040 --> 1:20:03.920 three hundred and thirty yard part four did is more, 1:20:04.040 --> 1:20:08.240 this regulation change is leveling the playing field a little bit. 1:20:08.439 --> 1:20:10.960 That's not true of every length of pool, like a 1:20:10.960 --> 1:20:13.880 four hundred and fifty yard part four that just swung 1:20:13.920 --> 1:20:19.120 in favor of a long hitter. Now barely barely, but 1:20:19.400 --> 1:20:21.200 overall we'll see how this shakes out. 1:20:21.200 --> 1:20:23.000 I actually think it's going to benefit a shorter hitter. 1:20:23.320 --> 1:20:26.000 That's what I saw this too, this discourse that like 1:20:26.120 --> 1:20:31.360 short hitters are screwed, and I uh, I think the 1:20:31.439 --> 1:20:35.200 thing that's discounted about short hitters on the PGA tour 1:20:35.400 --> 1:20:38.120 at this point, if you're a shorter hitter on the 1:20:38.120 --> 1:20:41.160 PGA Tour, that means you're like a freak of nature 1:20:41.479 --> 1:20:44.360 across the board with all the other aspects of the game. 1:20:44.640 --> 1:20:48.799 That means you are like extraordinarily good. And I think 1:20:49.560 --> 1:20:51.719 for a short hitter that might be hitting a five 1:20:51.800 --> 1:20:54.639 iron into the green, when a long hitter is hitting 1:20:54.640 --> 1:20:57.719 a nine iron into the green. Them hitting a three 1:20:57.760 --> 1:21:00.720 iron into the green versus a five iron isn't as 1:21:00.720 --> 1:21:03.080 big of a deal as a long hitter going from 1:21:03.080 --> 1:21:05.519 a nine iron to a seven or a six iron. 1:21:06.000 --> 1:21:08.960 Well where it's really big. So it'd be valuable if 1:21:08.960 --> 1:21:11.800 people looked up a plot. I mean, I'm trying to 1:21:11.800 --> 1:21:14.080 think of where one would exist, but where the value 1:21:14.120 --> 1:21:18.400 distance's biggest is generally inside like fifty yards, and then 1:21:18.520 --> 1:21:21.559 it gets pretty big between like two hundred and ten 1:21:21.680 --> 1:21:25.320 and two hundred and forty yards. That's where it gets 1:21:25.360 --> 1:21:30.439 pretty steep on the curve. Outside of that too, sixty 1:21:30.520 --> 1:21:34.559 two seventy to eighty. The difference there, the marginal benefit 1:21:34.600 --> 1:21:36.559 of like ten yards is not as significant. So some 1:21:36.600 --> 1:21:40.160 of these par fives we're going to see some equalizing 1:21:40.520 --> 1:21:42.360 and that's not going to be as tilted in favor 1:21:42.400 --> 1:21:45.519 of the long hitters. So the other and the other 1:21:45.560 --> 1:21:47.559 thing I would the other thing I was saying. 1:21:47.560 --> 1:21:49.960 I think that would be run counter to what people 1:21:50.000 --> 1:21:53.439 would think is that you would think that the short 1:21:53.479 --> 1:21:56.800 par fours and the and the par fives would be 1:21:56.880 --> 1:22:00.000 where the the long hitters have such an advantage with 1:22:00.160 --> 1:22:02.960 a rolled back ball. But this might not be the case. 1:22:03.720 --> 1:22:04.280 I think it's good. 1:22:04.320 --> 1:22:06.800 Yeah, it should in theory equalize that a little bit more. 1:22:06.880 --> 1:22:08.519 I mean, they're still going to have an advantage, right, 1:22:08.520 --> 1:22:10.439 but it should equalize it a little bit more. I 1:22:10.479 --> 1:22:14.639 think the other huge thing to look for. I don't 1:22:14.640 --> 1:22:17.840 think carrying hazards is talked about enough in the value 1:22:17.880 --> 1:22:23.040 of distance discussion. But now with a five percent reduction 1:22:23.680 --> 1:22:27.800 in absolute terms, there are going to be fewer hazards 1:22:27.800 --> 1:22:31.400 that a long player can carry that a short player cannot. 1:22:31.920 --> 1:22:34.400 And so there you're going to be removing some of 1:22:34.400 --> 1:22:38.200 those scenarios where a Dustin Johnson, a Bryson, D Chambeau, 1:22:38.439 --> 1:22:41.719 like some of those really long hitters Rory can carry 1:22:41.880 --> 1:22:46.040 a bunker that other players cannot. And that's significant, right, 1:22:46.120 --> 1:22:49.880 Like if the difference between two drivers before was three 1:22:49.920 --> 1:22:53.120 hundred and eight versus a three hundred yard carry, so 1:22:53.200 --> 1:22:55.559 eight yards, and now it's just a little bit smaller, 1:22:55.600 --> 1:22:56.759 it's shrunk down. 1:22:56.600 --> 1:22:59.840 To whatever four or five yards. We'll see that just. 1:23:01.280 --> 1:23:04.200 Lessens the number of hazards that only the longest players 1:23:04.200 --> 1:23:06.160 could hit. So I think that's another way that this 1:23:06.200 --> 1:23:07.559 could equalize things a little bit. 1:23:07.960 --> 1:23:10.479 Yeah, Like a great example of a golf course like 1:23:10.520 --> 1:23:14.400 that is the Detroit Golf Club where Bryson won, you know, 1:23:14.760 --> 1:23:18.040 and he literally could hit it over every single hazard, 1:23:18.840 --> 1:23:22.080 but a shorter hitter still had to contend with all 1:23:22.120 --> 1:23:23.160 these bunkers. 1:23:23.479 --> 1:23:26.280 I'll give you another example that as you were saying 1:23:26.320 --> 1:23:27.559 that came right to my mind. 1:23:27.600 --> 1:23:28.839 Hoole two at Quail Hollow. 1:23:30.120 --> 1:23:32.200 That's a shot that a lot of the long hitters 1:23:32.280 --> 1:23:35.599 just send over the trees, and it's a huge advantage 1:23:35.640 --> 1:23:37.920 if you can take that over the trees, dog leg 1:23:38.000 --> 1:23:40.679 left and they just fire it over the over the trees. 1:23:41.280 --> 1:23:42.800 I'm interested. Can you still do that? 1:23:43.200 --> 1:23:45.240 Like we'll see with the I mean, I don't even 1:23:45.240 --> 1:23:48.000 know if the PGA Tour is gonna adopt these the 1:23:48.080 --> 1:23:50.640 new ball, but if they were to, that'd be a 1:23:50.640 --> 1:23:54.200 really interesting t shot because that's a classic example of 1:23:54.240 --> 1:23:56.760 where shorter players would benefit because now everyone would be 1:23:57.160 --> 1:23:58.759 sort of playing into the same location. 1:23:59.439 --> 1:24:03.040 All right, Joseph, people can find your work on Twitter, 1:24:04.040 --> 1:24:07.400 and thank you for coming on and giving lending your 1:24:07.439 --> 1:24:11.280 expertise here on strategy and how this could potentially impact 1:24:11.360 --> 1:24:13.759 the top players and how they play golf courses. 1:24:14.160 --> 1:24:27.200 Thanks for having me appreciate it, Handy. 1:24:27.240 --> 1:24:30.160 Thank you for listening to another edition of the Frida 1:24:30.160 --> 1:24:34.639 Egg podcast. It was edited by Matt Rushes. Thank you, Matt. 1:24:35.320 --> 1:24:39.560 As a reminder, we're barreling down on the Masters, this 1:24:39.640 --> 1:24:42.280 is right around the corner. If you want to get 1:24:42.520 --> 1:24:45.080 kind of inundated further into the game of golf and 1:24:45.120 --> 1:24:49.200 you don't already check out the Friday newsletter. We just 1:24:49.240 --> 1:24:52.160 did a great one on this subject of the podcast 1:24:52.200 --> 1:24:54.640 you just listened to. It's available on the website, that 1:24:55.320 --> 1:24:58.080 edition of the newsletter and full I think, Garrett to 1:24:58.160 --> 1:25:00.960 the word count is like three thousand words. We kind 1:25:01.000 --> 1:25:05.280 of split it up and dove into different topics about this. 1:25:05.400 --> 1:25:07.680 So if you're still looking for more, I mean, this 1:25:07.800 --> 1:25:10.960 is it's such a big topic. I mean I could 1:25:11.000 --> 1:25:16.559 do six hours of podcasts analyzing all the little areas 1:25:16.600 --> 1:25:16.920 that this. 1:25:16.960 --> 1:25:17.679 Is going to go down. 1:25:17.720 --> 1:25:20.200 I think that's the fascinating thing is like there are 1:25:20.240 --> 1:25:24.800 a lot of unforeseen consequences that not I don't consequences 1:25:24.880 --> 1:25:29.000 aren't isn't the right word, but unforeseen things that are 1:25:29.040 --> 1:25:32.880 going to happen from this, because that's what happens when 1:25:33.000 --> 1:25:36.759 when big regulation happens, is that a lot of innovation happens. 1:25:36.800 --> 1:25:39.120 I think that's the thing that's not being talked about enough, 1:25:39.240 --> 1:25:41.760 is that, like, really, this is how kind of the 1:25:41.760 --> 1:25:45.559 world works. You regulate something and then people innovate off that. 1:25:45.840 --> 1:25:47.559 So we're going to see some new stuff from this. 1:25:48.160 --> 1:25:52.800 So check out the Friday newsletter. I've diverted here, but 1:25:53.080 --> 1:25:57.000 it is a it is a nice morning read every Monday, 1:25:57.000 --> 1:26:00.160 Wednesday Friday. It's free and it will keep you in 1:26:00.240 --> 1:26:03.439 tune with the game of golf and what's going on 1:26:03.560 --> 1:26:06.519 the big topics, and again we put a lot of 1:26:06.560 --> 1:26:11.679 effort into that. It's basically like a big article three 1:26:11.720 --> 1:26:15.200 times a week from our staff. So thank you for listening, 1:26:15.320 --> 1:26:18.040 thank you for the support, and we'll be back next 1:26:18.040 --> 1:26:20.160 week with a new episode of the Friday Podcast.