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Speaker 1: Lute force. If it doesn't work, you're just not using enough.

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Speaker 1: You're listening to Software Radio, Special Operations, Military Nails and

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Speaker 1: straight talk with the guys in the community.

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Speaker 2: Hi, welcome back to a wonderful episode of soft Rep Radio.

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Speaker 2: I am your host, rad and before I introduce my

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Speaker 2: next guest, I just want to mention our merch shop,

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Speaker 2: soft rep dot Com Forward slash Merch. Go check out

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Speaker 2: the merch keep us in business. That's what's making that

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Speaker 2: fireplace stay lit and going and flickering. And we really

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Speaker 2: appreciate all of you out there tagging us on the

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Speaker 2: internet with soft Rep and soft reap mafia hashtag on

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Speaker 2: your merch It's super cool. Also, we have a book

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Speaker 2: a book club. Excuse me, it's soft Rep dot Com

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Speaker 2: Forward slash book hyphened club. So if you take a

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Speaker 2: look at our book club, enroll in it. These books

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Speaker 2: are picked and curated by the guys behind the scenes

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Speaker 2: like Brandon Webb and Guy and all of everybody out there,

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Speaker 2: even myself and my next guest. Hopefully his book and

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Speaker 2: books will become part of our book clubs. And let

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Speaker 2: me introduce Jesse Fink, who is an author and he

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Speaker 2: has written quite a few books actually, so let me

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Speaker 2: just read a little bit of his bio here. Jesse

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Speaker 2: Fink a British Australian author of six books, including twin

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Speaker 2: biographies of the hard rock band ac DC, The Youngs,

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Speaker 2: The Brothers who Built ac DC and Bond The Last Highway,

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Speaker 2: the cocaine trafficking Story Pure Narco. And the book that

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Speaker 2: we're going to talk about more than the other ones

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Speaker 2: is The Eagle in the Mirror, a biography of British

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Speaker 2: intelligence officer Dick Ellis. His books have been translated into

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Speaker 2: some languages. And I just want to welcome to the show.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to the show, Jesse.

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Speaker 3: Great to see you again, my friend.

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Speaker 2: Yes, this is round two with Jesse and I. We

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Speaker 2: linked up a little while ago, and now it's better

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Speaker 2: that you're in London and we've got you connected. Now

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Speaker 2: that's interesting. White Friy's better.

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Speaker 3: There, better reception than Washington. Here.

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Speaker 2: Hey, let me ask you something. I get hit this

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Speaker 2: all the time by people that reach out to me

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Speaker 2: and they're like rad you know, I'm a struggling writer.

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Speaker 2: I got out of the military and I want to

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Speaker 2: write or I just want to write, and they reach

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Speaker 2: out to me because I talked to folks like yourself.

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Speaker 2: You know, what was it that helped you get into

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Speaker 2: writing in the beginning that maybe you can you know,

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Speaker 2: inspire somebody out there before we get into your book

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Speaker 2: The Eagle in the Mirror.

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Speaker 3: I mean, I did a journalism degree at university, like

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Speaker 3: a lot of people, but it sort of didn't really

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Speaker 3: prepare me for real life at all, straight into unemployment.

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Speaker 3: So you know, I think the idea of sort of

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Speaker 3: getting degrees to qualify you for writing and being a

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Speaker 3: journalist is an outdated idea. I think really it comes

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Speaker 3: down to self education, travel, reading as much as you can,

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Speaker 3: you know, reading people that you admire, and I think gradually,

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Speaker 3: sort of just through a process of you know, patience

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Speaker 3: time in osmosis, you develop some sort of skills in

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Speaker 3: your own writing. As long as you're reading good writers

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Speaker 3: and sort of you know, taking hints from you know,

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Speaker 3: what they do, eventually it leaches into your own work.

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Speaker 3: So I mean, that's the best advice I can give

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Speaker 3: anyone is just read a lot, you know, just read

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Speaker 3: what you're interested in. And the great thing is, now

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Speaker 3: you know the way the book industry is. You know,

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Speaker 3: there are a lot of pathways for writers who can't

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Speaker 3: get agents or can't get publishers to publish themselves. You know,

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Speaker 3: I'm doing it myself. I mean I published with you know,

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Speaker 3: normal book publishers throughout my career. But you know, this October,

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Speaker 3: it's coming up to the fiftieth anniversary of A Bond

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Speaker 3: Scott Jordan ac DC and I just had literally, you know,

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Speaker 3: two hundred pages of material that I didn't use in

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Speaker 3: the last book I did on Bond Scott. So I

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Speaker 3: just thought, you know, I'm going to put it on Amazon.

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Speaker 3: I'll just make it six American bucks and just see

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Speaker 3: how it goes. And already I've had a lot of

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Speaker 3: pre orders for it. So you know, there are a

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Speaker 3: lot of different ways that you know, people can get

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Speaker 3: into the business.

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Speaker 2: It's really cool and good advice too, And so the

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Speaker 2: Bond Scott and E. C. D C. Let's hit on

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Speaker 2: that a little bit, right rock and roll, bro, you

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Speaker 2: got your smiling, I'm smiling. You know what was it

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Speaker 2: like to like be around that environment for the years

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Speaker 2: you were there and then write the book?

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Speaker 3: Well, you know, the book came about really through through

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Speaker 3: a dark period of my personal life when and I

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Speaker 3: had a marriage breakdown. You know, this was back in

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Speaker 3: you know, two thousand and seven. So I had written

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Speaker 3: my first book, which was about Australia at the soccer

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Speaker 3: World Cup, and then you know, my marriage fell apart,

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Speaker 3: and really I went into sort of like this five

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Speaker 3: year kind of downward spiral of you know, excessive drinking

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Speaker 3: and excessive dating and and really didn't think I had

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Speaker 3: much of another book in me. And then I ended

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Speaker 3: up writing a memoir about this time. And I remember

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Speaker 3: sort of during this period, there was one night where

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Speaker 3: I felt really suicidal about my sort of situation and

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Speaker 3: was very tempted just to walk out in front of

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Speaker 3: the garbage truck. This is like at three o'clock in

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Speaker 3: the morning one night, and for whatever reason, I just

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Speaker 3: put on some ac DC on my laptop at three

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Speaker 3: o'clock in the morning, and it was like this incredible job.

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Speaker 3: It was this fabulous antidepressant that sort of just pulled

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Speaker 3: me out of this incredibly dark moment. And I thought,

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Speaker 3: you know, that's the power of rock and roll. That's

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Speaker 3: the whole point of ac DC. This is this is

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Speaker 3: why people connect to this music on a on a

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Speaker 3: really visceral physical level, and it explains the popularity of

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Speaker 3: a CDC, which is the biggest rock band in the world,

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Speaker 3: so huge, huge, you know, you know, just you know,

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Speaker 3: even the military connection. I remember, you know, talking to

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Speaker 3: a guy who you know, would play a C d

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Speaker 3: C on in his helicopter in Somalia and you know,

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Speaker 3: things like that. So you know, I talked to these

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Speaker 3: people and I said, you know, why do you connect

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Speaker 3: to this music? And this was really kind of like

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Speaker 3: the starting point for me to kind of write this

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Speaker 3: appreciation of the music of a C d C, which

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Speaker 3: at that time, you know, critics didn't take very seriously.

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Speaker 3: It's always sort of been regarded as a bit of

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Speaker 3: a sort of a gimmick rock band, and you know,

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Speaker 3: the American critics don't take it very seriously. And I

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Speaker 3: ended up writing this book called The Youngs, which was

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Speaker 3: just their story through eleven important songs, and it was

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Speaker 3: a very successful book, sort of went around the world,

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Speaker 3: went to twenty countries. I suddenly had success that I

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Speaker 3: hadn't had in my previous two books, and suddenly found

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Speaker 3: myself an ACDC biographer. So that was how you know,

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Speaker 3: that came about. And then because of the success of

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Speaker 3: that book, my publisher was interested in another music biography,

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Speaker 3: and I suggested Bond Scott, because you know, Bond Scott

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Speaker 3: is a folk hero to people the world over, and

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Speaker 3: he has a remarkable personal story and his life ended

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Speaker 3: in fairly tragic circumstances at the age of thirty three.

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Speaker 3: So I then wrote another book about a CDC. So

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Speaker 3: really it all just came out of, you know, very

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Speaker 3: unusual personal circumstance. But the great thing was that, you know,

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Speaker 3: you write books like this and then you have people

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Speaker 3: reach out to you on social media like Facebook or

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Speaker 3: Twitter or whatever, who will say, hey, I just read

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Speaker 3: your book, and I just went through exactly the same thing.

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Speaker 3: You know, I lost my job, or I lost my wife,

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Speaker 3: or I'm a widower or whatever. And all these people

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Speaker 3: have a personal story that is sort of anchored in

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Speaker 3: the music of rock and roll, whether it's Led Zeppelin

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Speaker 3: or ac DC or the Who or whoever. But that's

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Speaker 3: what rock and roll music does. It's this fabulous, bandy depressidant.

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Speaker 3: So that was really how I ended up writing music biographies.

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Speaker 2: I love it, and I love rock and roll, and

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Speaker 2: I think we all love rock and roll and music

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Speaker 2: consued the soul, right and it just does you know,

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Speaker 2: you just turn on something and look, you got triggered

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Speaker 2: by a C d C at three in the morning.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, that's right. And then I ended up sort

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Speaker 3: of spending the next ten years of my life writing

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Speaker 3: about them.

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Speaker 2: You know.

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Speaker 3: It wasn't what I thought would happen. And then, you know,

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Speaker 3: during the course of writing the biography of Bob Scott,

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Speaker 3: which took four years to write, I met some people

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Speaker 3: in Miami who, after the book came out, they contacted

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Speaker 3: me and said, oh, by the way, would you talk

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Speaker 3: to this cocaine trafficker in Miami who wants to write

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Speaker 3: a book? And you know, I ended up sort of

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Speaker 3: talking to this guy on WhatsApp from Sydney, he was

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Speaker 3: in Miami, and we sort of agreed to write a

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Speaker 3: book about his life, and then spent sort of two

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Speaker 3: and a half years working on that. And so that

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Speaker 3: just sort of came out of the Bond Scott book.

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Speaker 3: It was just a complete accident, and suddenly I'm writing

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Speaker 3: about Pablo Escobar, right and dea you know, talking to

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Speaker 3: guys from US Customs.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, no, I'm just like, I'm just listening to you.

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Speaker 2: It's just the story. You know, You're like, you're you're

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Speaker 2: at one point in your life and then that takes

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Speaker 2: you to another place. After music involves the music in

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Speaker 2: this other story of Pablo Escobar just kind of comes

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Speaker 2: out of that, and now here you are writing about

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Speaker 2: the cocaine trafficking of Pablo Escobar.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's right. So and then I spent two and

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Speaker 3: a half years working on this book and then the

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Speaker 3: you know, I can't I don't know if I could swear,

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Speaker 3: but you know, yeah, that's fine. Fucking pandemic hits right,

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Speaker 3: that's right, and Australia gets absolutely smashed more than other countries.

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Speaker 3: You guys in America thought you had it bad. I mean,

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Speaker 3: the Australians had it really bad because the government wouldn't

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Speaker 3: let us leave the country at all at all, So

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Speaker 3: we were basically prisoners of the Australian government, stuck in Australia,

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Speaker 3: couldn't go anywhere. And I, you know, I thought, you know,

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Speaker 3: that's a sort of a violation of my human right.

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Speaker 3: If I want to leave the bloody country, I should

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Speaker 3: be able to do. They wouldn't allow anyone to leave, so,

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Speaker 3: you know, Pure and Arco basically came out at the

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Speaker 3: worst possible time. So I've just spent two and a

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Speaker 3: half years working on this book and we couldn't promote it.

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Speaker 3: You know, the guy that I wrote it with, Lewis Navia,

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Speaker 3: he couldn't come to Australia from Miami. I couldn't go

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Speaker 3: to the United States. It really hurt the book. But

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Speaker 3: the funny thing was, you know that the the few

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Speaker 3: things that Australians could do was we could go shopping

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Speaker 3: at a supermarket, we could fill up our cars with petrol,

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Speaker 3: or we could go to thrift shops. And so I

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Speaker 3: was spending a lot of time in thrift shops, which

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Speaker 3: were over sort of in the morning, and I would

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Speaker 3: meet my father there because it was the only place

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Speaker 3: we could meet, right, So we couldn't go and sit

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Speaker 3: in a cafe because there were no tables. He literally

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Speaker 3: couldn't sit at a table. And so we would meet

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Speaker 3: in this thrift shop and we would just sort of,

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Speaker 3: you know, find out what books were on the shelves.

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Speaker 3: And he mentioned to me that he had picked up

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Speaker 3: a book about this Canadian SPI called William Stevenson, and

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Speaker 3: in the book it had mentioned a guy called Dick

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Speaker 3: Ellis and said, and Fred, who's my father, said well,

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Speaker 3: check out this dick Ellis feller. I think he's very interesting.

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Speaker 3: There might be a book at it. So I'm stuck

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Speaker 3: in Sydney. I'm looking for another book to do, but

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Speaker 3: I can't travel anywhere, I can't do anything. And suddenly

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Speaker 3: dick Ellis falls into my lap literally, you know, well

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Speaker 3: not literally, you know.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, Dad, Dad knows what's up.

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Speaker 3: But the great thing was because of the pandemic. You know,

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Speaker 3: the National Archives in the UK, which have a lot

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Speaker 3: of these intelligence files, they made it all free because

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Speaker 3: of the pandemic because no one could go into a library.

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Speaker 3: So I was able to download thousands of files from

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Speaker 3: the National Archives, and I was able to do this book,

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Speaker 3: you know, from my laptop in Sydney. And that's how

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Speaker 3: I ended up writing about spies. So, you know, each

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Speaker 3: each book kind of fell into the other in a

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Speaker 3: strange way, you know, And that's how I ended up

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Speaker 3: going from sport to divorce, to ac DC to cocaine

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Speaker 3: to spies.

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Speaker 2: I love it. That's a great little timeline you just

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Speaker 2: put out right there. And and this book, The Eagle

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Speaker 2: and Mirror, it goes after Charles Howard. Dick Ellis, right,

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Speaker 2: he had such you know a name that we know

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Speaker 2: him ass and a lot of people had doubts about him,

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Speaker 2: but he was the longest serving six operative. Right is

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Speaker 2: that right that worked in I six?

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Speaker 3: It was essentially m I six is top man in

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Speaker 3: America during the second ward.

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Speaker 2: Can ask a question, if you're a spy, you have

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Speaker 2: to be kind of like a spy to the other

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Speaker 2: side too, because you're trying to get spy information for

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Speaker 2: your spy, and so you know they're going to want

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Speaker 2: to pit him as like this multiple spy of spies.

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Speaker 2: But it's kind of the job of a spy to

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Speaker 2: be a spy.

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Speaker 3: Well, I mean, there's you know, there's there's spying on

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Speaker 3: your enemy, and it also you know, I guess trying

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Speaker 3: to figure out who is sort of in your midst

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Speaker 3: at the time and what information they're trying to get

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Speaker 3: out of the people that you work with. You know,

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Speaker 3: are the people that you work with actually working for

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Speaker 3: the other side. And you know that famous quote about

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Speaker 3: you know, the spy game being akin to a wilderness

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Speaker 3: of mirrors.

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Speaker 4: You know that so computed, You know that that you know,

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Speaker 4: it's very easy to become.

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Speaker 3: Paranoid obviously in an environment that so anyway, dick Ellis

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Speaker 3: was It was an Australian, a fellow who was born

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Speaker 3: in eighteen ninety five, and he he had a very

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Speaker 3: tough childhood. His mother died very young, his father couldn't

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Speaker 3: take care of him. He ended up sort of becoming

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Speaker 3: a self educated classical musician and ended up on a

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Speaker 3: scholarship to the UK and left in nineteen fourteen and

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Speaker 3: war broke out and he ended up joining the British Army,

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Speaker 3: got injured multiple times on the Western Front and took

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Speaker 3: up learning Russian and this was of great use to

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Speaker 3: the British intelligence services. So after his time as a

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Speaker 3: soldier was over, he got recruited by m I six

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Speaker 3: and he was sort of thrown into the field too

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Speaker 3: essentially encounter at the time, you know, the great menace

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Speaker 3: of the Soviet Union, which had just been sort of

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Speaker 3: created by the Russian Revolution, and so the great fear,

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Speaker 3: obviously of the British was that the Communists were going

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Speaker 3: to try and take over Great Britain. And you know

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Speaker 3: that the the security apparatus of Britain was very much

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Speaker 3: geared against you know, this this Russian menace, the Red menace.

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Speaker 3: So dick Ellis was incredibly valuable to Britain because of

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Speaker 3: his language skills. He married a Ukrainian woman who was

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Speaker 3: well connected into Ukrainian exile communities who were against the Soviets,

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Speaker 3: and so he basically operated as a as a like

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Speaker 3: a field agent in Western Europe, basically gathering information that

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Speaker 3: could be used against the Soviet Union. And during the

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Speaker 3: course of this time, there was some sort of cooperation

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Speaker 3: between the Nazis and the Great Britain against the Soviets.

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Speaker 3: And this is where sort of dick el has got

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Speaker 3: into trouble that many years later he was accused of

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Speaker 3: being a Russian and the Soviets, sorry, a Russian and

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Speaker 3: Nazi spy. But this was many years later. This was

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Speaker 3: in the nineteen sixties, so we don't know exactly what

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Speaker 3: he was up to sort of between the wars, but

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Speaker 3: there was a lot of complicated double agentry and triple

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Speaker 3: agentry going on in Europe at that time, and the

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Speaker 3: Brits and the Germans were actually cooperating with each other

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Speaker 3: against the Russians. And then dick Alis came to America

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Speaker 3: in nineteen forty and he was officially the British consul

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Speaker 3: in New York, so he was sort of running the

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Speaker 3: Passport office in New York, but he was essentially fronting

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Speaker 3: or heading up six in America. And at that time,

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Speaker 3: the Americans hadn't joined the war effort against Adolf Hitler,

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Speaker 3: and the purpose of Els being in the United States

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Speaker 3: was essentially to sort of try to get the United

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Speaker 3: States to join Great Britain in fighting the Nazis. And

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Speaker 3: you know, the fascinating thing for me was that I

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Speaker 3: came across an old interview that he had done with

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Speaker 3: a Canadian television company that had never aired that he

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Speaker 3: said that he had got warning of the attack on

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Speaker 3: Pearl Harbor about four months before it happened, and that

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Speaker 3: this warning had been actually relayed to the FBI and

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Speaker 3: to President Roosevelt himself, and which sort of rewrites the

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Speaker 3: whole sort of story around Pearl Harbor and sort of

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Speaker 3: undermines this idea that, you know, that the Americans were

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Speaker 3: worn as this sort of grand conspiracy. I think there's

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Speaker 3: a lot more to it. And Dick Ellis contributed a

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Speaker 3: great deal to the American war effort. He set up

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Speaker 3: the OSS, which became the CIA. You know, he set

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Speaker 3: up training centers in Maryland and in Ontario in Canada

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Speaker 3: for OSS personnel. He was given a legion a merit

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Speaker 3: by President Truman. He set up the Australian Secret Intelligence Service.

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Speaker 3: He did all these remarkable things, and then he died

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Speaker 3: in nineteen seventy five. And you know, in the nineteen

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Speaker 3: eighties a couple of books came out which accused him

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Speaker 3: of being a Russian and German spy, which was quite

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Speaker 3: shocking to his family, so shocking that his daughter returned

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Speaker 3: all his medals to the British government, and that his son,

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Speaker 3: who was a Canadian intelligence officer, was incredibly disgusted by

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Speaker 3: the way that his father had been smeared and the

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Speaker 3: case against him, I thought, having reviewed all the evidence

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Speaker 3: was pretty flimsy. So this book is really an attempt

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Speaker 3: to kind of clear his name.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and I mean you kind of have to play

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Speaker 2: both sides of the fence. But again, where did he

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Speaker 2: pass away at? Where was his fight? Where was he

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Speaker 2: where'd he die? What country?

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Speaker 3: He died in England in nineteen seventy five, So he

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Speaker 3: was he was eighty years old.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and jeez, I wasn't even born yet. I was

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Speaker 2: two years still for me, Holy cow.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I was born in seventy three, So I was

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Speaker 3: only too yeah when he died. And you know, like

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Speaker 3: I said, I knew nothing about this guy until my

345
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Speaker 3: father had mentioned him, you know, during the pandemic. He said,

346
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Speaker 3: looking to this person, he's quite fasinating. And I thought, well,

347
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Speaker 3: he's a remarkable Australian story. He's a great British story exactly,

348
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Speaker 3: and he's a great American story. And he's he's had

349
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Speaker 3: this remarkable kind of intelligence and military career over three

350
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Speaker 3: countries and served as an intelligence officer essentially from about

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Speaker 3: you know, nineteen twenty one three to nineteen seventy five.

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Speaker 3: I mean, it's a remarkable kind of trajectory, an arc

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Speaker 3: of a man's life. And yet and also it has

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Speaker 3: this allegation of working for Joseph Stalin and Adolf Hitler.

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Speaker 3: So I couldn't really believe that this story hadn't been told.

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Speaker 2: It's not like he resided his rest of his life

357
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Speaker 2: in Germany or in you know, off the coast of

358
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Speaker 2: Russia and on a Black island or anything. It's not

359
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Speaker 2: like he died there. He died in the UK, right

360
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Speaker 2: where you know, where he fell at home. That's that

361
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Speaker 2: was home obviously, And so he was, and he was

362
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Speaker 2: awarded by our President of America at the time, Roosevelt,

363
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Speaker 2: right awarded him with like probably the closest thing to

364
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Speaker 2: a medal of honor, I'd imagine, you know, yeah, right,

365
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Speaker 2: And so he got awarded that he didn't get it.

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Speaker 2: Did he get awards and accolades from like Hitler and

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Speaker 2: from Russia Stalin and or anybody?

368
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Speaker 3: No, no, no, no, he didn't get anything from then.

369
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Speaker 3: But you know, the thing was, I mean, I don't

370
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Speaker 3: know how much you know about Russian espionas, but I mean,

371
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Speaker 3: obviously the great traitor of the twentieth century in Britain's

372
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Speaker 3: eyes is a fellow called Kim Philby. And Kim Philby

373
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Speaker 3: worked for mi I six and defected to the Soviet

374
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Speaker 3: Union in nineteen sixty three, and greatly embarrassed that, you know,

375
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Speaker 3: the intelligence services of Britain and the United States that

376
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Speaker 3: this person had operated at a very high level for

377
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Speaker 3: decades and given all these secrets over to the Russians

378
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Speaker 3: and then defected in nineteen sixty three. So after Philby defected,

379
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Speaker 3: that was when Ellis was interrogated by people within m

380
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Speaker 3: I five and six in London, and he was confronted

381
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Speaker 3: with sort of reports of Nazis who had been arrested

382
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Speaker 3: after the Second World War, mentioning that a source for

383
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Speaker 3: a lot of their information was it was a man

384
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Speaker 3: called Captain Ellis.

385
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Speaker 2: And.

386
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Speaker 3: The report of one Nazi officer it ended up on

387
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Speaker 3: the desk of Kim Philby, who in nineteen forty six

388
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Speaker 3: was working with Dick Ellis. And this person had written

389
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Speaker 3: in the margin on this document it said who was

390
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Speaker 3: this man Ellis? And Kim Philby had answered and said,

391
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Speaker 3: you know, essentially that he didn't know, and that no

392
00:24:40,359 --> 00:24:44,800
Speaker 3: further action should be taken, right, which is odd given

393
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Speaker 3: that they were working together in this office in London,

394
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Speaker 3: So you know, jumped to nineteen sixty five. It's, you know,

395
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Speaker 3: two decades later. People are looking at this report thinking,

396
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Speaker 3: why did why did Kim Philby cover for Dick Ellis here?

397
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Speaker 3: Why did he say that he didn't know who he was? Right?

398
00:25:06,160 --> 00:25:08,840
Speaker 3: Maybe they were working together, Maybe Dick Ellis was this

399
00:25:08,960 --> 00:25:14,000
Speaker 3: other Russian mole within m I six And and that

400
00:25:14,160 --> 00:25:17,080
Speaker 3: was really the starting point for the British investigation against

401
00:25:17,119 --> 00:25:24,159
Speaker 3: Dick Ellis. And but I went back to all the

402
00:25:24,240 --> 00:25:28,320
Speaker 3: you know, the original documents that were available you know,

403
00:25:28,560 --> 00:25:32,560
Speaker 3: the ones that certainly sort of been released anyway to

404
00:25:32,600 --> 00:25:39,399
Speaker 3: see what the case against Ellis was. And my my hunch,

405
00:25:39,560 --> 00:25:45,840
Speaker 3: my conclusion was that Dick Elis was actually involved in

406
00:25:47,119 --> 00:25:49,280
Speaker 3: something that the British didn't want the rest of the

407
00:25:49,320 --> 00:25:51,600
Speaker 3: world to know about, which was that they were actually

408
00:25:51,640 --> 00:25:55,760
Speaker 3: working with the Germans prior to the outbreak of the

409
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Speaker 3: Second World War and that their their common enemy was

410
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Speaker 3: the Service Union, and that Dick Ellis didn't want to

411
00:26:03,960 --> 00:26:07,600
Speaker 3: get his boss at m I sets into trouble basically

412
00:26:07,640 --> 00:26:11,440
Speaker 3: for working on an unsanctioned program, which was to work

413
00:26:11,480 --> 00:26:17,080
Speaker 3: with the Nazis. So it's a very convoluted, very sort

414
00:26:17,080 --> 00:26:22,960
Speaker 3: of dense tale about someone who's been completely forgotten, but

415
00:26:23,000 --> 00:26:26,040
Speaker 3: who's very significant in sort of the history of the

416
00:26:26,080 --> 00:26:28,360
Speaker 3: Second World War and the history of the Cold War.

417
00:26:28,560 --> 00:26:32,360
Speaker 3: Who deserved I think the benefit of the doubt.

418
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Speaker 2: A different microscope. Like today we can go back on

419
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Speaker 2: DNA and find out that there was DNA on the

420
00:26:39,240 --> 00:26:42,960
Speaker 2: crime scene and like they can rediscover who possibly the

421
00:26:43,000 --> 00:26:46,840
Speaker 2: suspect is. Today from the sixties, they're fighting missing persons

422
00:26:46,880 --> 00:26:49,280
Speaker 2: all the time, So why couldn't a case be relooked

423
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Speaker 2: at from such a long time ago? To just say, hey,

424
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Speaker 2: you know, let's let's let's put it this way like

425
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Speaker 2: Dick Ellis boy, I had my thought of you know,

426
00:26:59,320 --> 00:27:02,359
Speaker 2: he was okay. So if they're going to say that

427
00:27:02,680 --> 00:27:07,399
Speaker 2: Germany was sympathizing with the UK pre war to go

428
00:27:07,440 --> 00:27:11,200
Speaker 2: against Russia, well here in America, our Congress was also

429
00:27:11,200 --> 00:27:15,120
Speaker 2: sympathizing with Germany in some aspects that our president had

430
00:27:15,119 --> 00:27:17,000
Speaker 2: to say this, we don't want to go to war,

431
00:27:17,040 --> 00:27:18,480
Speaker 2: but we have to go to war. This isn't okay.

432
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Speaker 2: There was German sympathizers in our Congress, you know. So

433
00:27:22,440 --> 00:27:24,879
Speaker 2: it's like that wasn't out of the norm. That's what

434
00:27:24,880 --> 00:27:27,879
Speaker 2: I'm trying to say, to have the countries talking to

435
00:27:27,960 --> 00:27:29,320
Speaker 2: Germany pre German War.

436
00:27:31,000 --> 00:27:33,159
Speaker 3: And there were a lot of people were in the

437
00:27:33,240 --> 00:27:37,000
Speaker 3: Nazi Party prior to the outbreak of the Sycamore War

438
00:27:37,040 --> 00:27:40,679
Speaker 3: who could see what where Hitler was taking Germany and

439
00:27:40,720 --> 00:27:42,560
Speaker 3: they didn't want any part of it. They actually wanted

440
00:27:42,560 --> 00:27:46,960
Speaker 3: to get rid of Hitler. So people within MI six

441
00:27:47,080 --> 00:27:52,439
Speaker 3: were actually talking to Admiral Kanaris, who was one of

442
00:27:52,440 --> 00:27:56,199
Speaker 3: the main plotters against Hitler, who you know, was was

443
00:27:56,280 --> 00:27:58,800
Speaker 3: rounded up and executed.

444
00:28:01,040 --> 00:28:03,200
Speaker 2: Exactly because people are trying to take out Hitler and

445
00:28:03,200 --> 00:28:06,399
Speaker 2: say they did what they're like.

446
00:28:06,440 --> 00:28:09,800
Speaker 3: This is my conclusion was that dick Elis was involved

447
00:28:09,840 --> 00:28:15,600
Speaker 3: in some sort of plot against Hitler, working with sort

448
00:28:15,600 --> 00:28:18,640
Speaker 3: of cooperative kind of elements within the Nazi Party itself,

449
00:28:18,840 --> 00:28:22,840
Speaker 3: you know that. So the thing my point is that

450
00:28:24,600 --> 00:28:28,160
Speaker 3: you know, things can be said in documents that can

451
00:28:28,200 --> 00:28:31,840
Speaker 3: be interpreted in many different ways. It depends what your

452
00:28:32,240 --> 00:28:35,239
Speaker 3: your mindset is or how you're seeing that information and

453
00:28:35,280 --> 00:28:39,720
Speaker 3: what your own agenda is. Right. So, in the context

454
00:28:39,720 --> 00:28:41,840
Speaker 3: of the nineteen sixties, you've got all these people who

455
00:28:41,880 --> 00:28:46,080
Speaker 3: are incredibly embarrassed about Kim Philby defective to the Soviet Union,

456
00:28:46,680 --> 00:28:49,200
Speaker 3: and suddenly they're like, okay, ship, we've got to fucking

457
00:28:49,800 --> 00:28:52,760
Speaker 3: you know, make up with this, with this gross negligence,

458
00:28:53,560 --> 00:28:57,520
Speaker 3: put a li on it, and find someone else, right. So,

459
00:28:58,280 --> 00:29:01,000
Speaker 3: and this happens all the time. So I think dick

460
00:29:01,080 --> 00:29:05,920
Speaker 3: Ellis was at was a victim of this. Unfortunately, his

461
00:29:06,480 --> 00:29:12,920
Speaker 3: name has been associated with, you know, betrayal and sabotage,

462
00:29:13,080 --> 00:29:17,800
Speaker 3: and he's like a Benedict Arnold an intelligence world, and

463
00:29:18,400 --> 00:29:22,240
Speaker 3: I don't think I don't think it really sort of

464
00:29:22,280 --> 00:29:27,360
Speaker 3: stacks up to be a solid case. So this book

465
00:29:27,440 --> 00:29:32,520
Speaker 3: is my attempt in you know, very difficult circumstances in

466
00:29:32,560 --> 00:29:34,920
Speaker 3: that I don't have access to you know, all these

467
00:29:34,920 --> 00:29:38,240
Speaker 3: classified file health that are still held by m I

468
00:29:38,280 --> 00:29:40,760
Speaker 3: six were then ever going to get released, right But

469
00:29:41,800 --> 00:29:46,120
Speaker 3: I went through every every possible document, every possible mention

470
00:29:46,240 --> 00:29:50,800
Speaker 3: of this fellow that had ever been printed and reconstructed

471
00:29:51,640 --> 00:29:55,720
Speaker 3: essentially his life, put together a timeline. I figured out

472
00:29:55,720 --> 00:30:01,480
Speaker 3: where he was at any particular time, and Wow, basically

473
00:30:01,480 --> 00:30:03,400
Speaker 3: came to the conclusion that he can't be guilty of

474
00:30:03,440 --> 00:30:06,960
Speaker 3: all these things that he's accused of. So I think

475
00:30:07,040 --> 00:30:10,200
Speaker 3: people who are interested in, you know, the way that

476
00:30:10,720 --> 00:30:17,760
Speaker 3: intelligence agencies operate, who are interested in you know, I

477
00:30:17,760 --> 00:30:19,840
Speaker 3: guess you know your your country is dealing with this

478
00:30:19,960 --> 00:30:23,640
Speaker 3: right now, this whole issue of trust.

479
00:30:25,680 --> 00:30:29,040
Speaker 2: Right who do we trust? You don't we trust? Do

480
00:30:29,040 --> 00:30:31,760
Speaker 2: we trust? The judicial system? Do we trust the DOJ

481
00:30:31,920 --> 00:30:35,720
Speaker 2: Department of Justice? Do we trust? I mean, you know, trust.

482
00:30:35,960 --> 00:30:36,640
Speaker 2: It's got to have.

483
00:30:36,680 --> 00:30:38,720
Speaker 3: Trust, that's right, you know. So I think that it

484
00:30:38,720 --> 00:30:43,520
Speaker 3: would be interesting because people who are who are concerned

485
00:30:43,520 --> 00:30:46,280
Speaker 3: with those sort of issues, and I think you know,

486
00:30:46,360 --> 00:30:50,360
Speaker 3: every everyone whether you're in the U S Or the UK,

487
00:30:50,640 --> 00:30:53,080
Speaker 3: or Australia or Western Europe right now, I think there's

488
00:30:53,120 --> 00:31:00,000
Speaker 3: this there's this contagion of distrust of of government agents.

489
00:31:01,000 --> 00:31:04,600
Speaker 2: It's it's just been put out there to thwart the

490
00:31:05,800 --> 00:31:09,280
Speaker 2: the justice systems and the trust of the people because

491
00:31:09,720 --> 00:31:13,360
Speaker 2: somebody's getting themselves put in front of a judge and

492
00:31:13,400 --> 00:31:16,080
Speaker 2: a magistrate and so they're going to say that they're

493
00:31:16,120 --> 00:31:18,840
Speaker 2: innocent and that this is all lies and this is corrupt,

494
00:31:18,840 --> 00:31:20,960
Speaker 2: and then people will just and you got the internet, right,

495
00:31:21,200 --> 00:31:23,320
Speaker 2: it just can pile on so fast and the next thing,

496
00:31:23,320 --> 00:31:25,680
Speaker 2: you know, it's just what's going on here is going

497
00:31:25,720 --> 00:31:29,560
Speaker 2: on over in the EU, you know, you know, and

498
00:31:29,600 --> 00:31:32,280
Speaker 2: I have to far right wings trying to take over

499
00:31:32,360 --> 00:31:35,240
Speaker 2: in France and right now, you know, and people trying

500
00:31:35,280 --> 00:31:38,280
Speaker 2: to do snap elections over there so that Mark Home

501
00:31:38,360 --> 00:31:42,640
Speaker 2: can get you know, the party aligned and et cetera.

502
00:31:42,800 --> 00:31:44,880
Speaker 2: And then you've got I mean, I pay attention, right,

503
00:31:44,920 --> 00:31:46,880
Speaker 2: this is kind of what's going on, and it's.

504
00:31:48,520 --> 00:31:55,640
Speaker 3: You know, and if you can and and this is

505
00:31:55,680 --> 00:31:59,520
Speaker 3: a good example of that that you know that they're

506
00:32:00,000 --> 00:32:02,560
Speaker 3: elements within any.

507
00:32:03,480 --> 00:32:05,640
Speaker 2: But it's not so much that Jesse, it's not so

508
00:32:05,720 --> 00:32:08,560
Speaker 2: much being told, it's that we see it ourselves. We

509
00:32:08,600 --> 00:32:11,640
Speaker 2: see the words being said out of the person's mouths

510
00:32:11,840 --> 00:32:13,760
Speaker 2: and they're saying it to us, and they're coming back

511
00:32:13,840 --> 00:32:17,360
Speaker 2: later saying they never said it. Right, That's that's that's

512
00:32:17,400 --> 00:32:19,840
Speaker 2: where this has happened. This is it's like we watched

513
00:32:19,840 --> 00:32:23,120
Speaker 2: you say that. Now you're saying you never said that.

514
00:32:23,200 --> 00:32:26,520
Speaker 2: Like this is all lie. It's like, yeah, trying to

515
00:32:26,560 --> 00:32:30,640
Speaker 2: like make us go crazy to you know, move forward

516
00:32:30,760 --> 00:32:31,880
Speaker 2: their agenda.

517
00:32:31,520 --> 00:32:33,400
Speaker 3: And their lie.

518
00:32:33,680 --> 00:32:38,080
Speaker 2: Yes, that's that. Yeah. And again it's what's happened to

519
00:32:38,080 --> 00:32:42,200
Speaker 2: to Dick is that he was kind of in the

520
00:32:42,320 --> 00:32:45,600
Speaker 2: right place at the right times for all sorts of

521
00:32:45,800 --> 00:32:50,240
Speaker 2: intermingling with all of these different elements of the world.

522
00:32:50,520 --> 00:32:53,520
Speaker 2: Brow he just happened to just be this little puzzle

523
00:32:53,520 --> 00:32:55,160
Speaker 2: piece that was like hey, you know, coming over to

524
00:32:55,160 --> 00:32:57,320
Speaker 2: the US saying you guys should take a look at this.

525
00:32:57,320 --> 00:33:00,320
Speaker 2: This is a situation going on over here. He's you know,

526
00:33:00,360 --> 00:33:03,360
Speaker 2: working for the UK, he's you know, definitely working for

527
00:33:03,400 --> 00:33:06,320
Speaker 2: the Allies, it seems like. And you know, but pre war,

528
00:33:06,360 --> 00:33:08,280
Speaker 2: he's got to talk to you know, he's got to

529
00:33:08,320 --> 00:33:11,440
Speaker 2: get intel they call it human and you know, human

530
00:33:11,440 --> 00:33:14,720
Speaker 2: intelligence and all this other intelligence. You've got to probably

531
00:33:14,800 --> 00:33:17,680
Speaker 2: befriends somebody who wants to give up, and.

532
00:33:17,720 --> 00:33:19,720
Speaker 3: Very likely you have to pay them at some point

533
00:33:19,760 --> 00:33:23,160
Speaker 3: with money that you don't have. So one of the

534
00:33:23,240 --> 00:33:26,800
Speaker 3: core sort of allegations made against Ellis was that at

535
00:33:26,800 --> 00:33:32,520
Speaker 3: some point he pocketed some money from an enemy source.

536
00:33:33,240 --> 00:33:38,680
Speaker 3: Right now, Yes, on the surface, that appears a terrible thing,

537
00:33:38,760 --> 00:33:42,760
Speaker 3: what a betrayal. You're accepting money from your your enemy, right,

538
00:33:43,960 --> 00:33:47,840
Speaker 3: But if you're if you're a drug dealer pretending to

539
00:33:47,840 --> 00:33:50,960
Speaker 3: be sorry, if you're a policeman pretending to be a

540
00:33:51,040 --> 00:33:53,920
Speaker 3: drug dealer and you're working under cover, you're going to

541
00:33:53,960 --> 00:33:56,160
Speaker 3: accept the money because you want the other side to

542
00:33:56,200 --> 00:34:00,120
Speaker 3: think that, you know, you're a drug deal right And

543
00:34:00,160 --> 00:34:02,840
Speaker 3: not exactly, it's the same sort of situation if you're

544
00:34:02,840 --> 00:34:05,480
Speaker 3: working as a spy and you want the other side

545
00:34:05,480 --> 00:34:09,600
Speaker 3: to think that you're ploiable and amnable and corruptible, and.

546
00:34:10,600 --> 00:34:12,319
Speaker 2: You know, it just reminds me of the book of

547
00:34:12,360 --> 00:34:15,440
Speaker 2: the movie Point Break with Keanu Reeves and Patrick Swayzey.

548
00:34:15,680 --> 00:34:18,120
Speaker 2: There's a scene when they go into the house and

549
00:34:18,120 --> 00:34:20,120
Speaker 2: and and the guy from it Hot Chili Peppers is

550
00:34:20,120 --> 00:34:22,960
Speaker 2: in there, Anthony Keatis and everybody, and it's like and

551
00:34:23,000 --> 00:34:25,319
Speaker 2: Tom Sizemore is like, what do you do? And this

552
00:34:25,400 --> 00:34:27,400
Speaker 2: is my this is my case, this is my I

553
00:34:27,400 --> 00:34:29,160
Speaker 2: got this tattoo on my neck. I've been with these

554
00:34:29,160 --> 00:34:31,480
Speaker 2: guys for five years. You think I want this tattoo

555
00:34:31,520 --> 00:34:33,640
Speaker 2: on my neck. And he's the total undercover cop, like

556
00:34:33,760 --> 00:34:36,160
Speaker 2: they're blowing his cover. You know, he's like, what are

557
00:34:36,200 --> 00:34:38,640
Speaker 2: you doing? That's what It kind of reminds me of.

558
00:34:41,000 --> 00:34:43,879
Speaker 3: The point would be linked to my book there you go.

559
00:34:46,239 --> 00:34:49,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, dude, it's like I had to get this tattoo.

560
00:34:49,760 --> 00:34:49,960
Speaker 3: Man.

561
00:34:51,080 --> 00:34:54,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, So what is the spy to do? You know,

562
00:34:54,280 --> 00:34:55,919
Speaker 2: especially when the spy is on your side, you gotta

563
00:34:55,960 --> 00:34:57,719
Speaker 2: have some leeway and that money. How do we know

564
00:34:57,800 --> 00:35:00,080
Speaker 2: that money didn't necessarily go to the miss.

565
00:35:01,640 --> 00:35:03,160
Speaker 3: I don't know. If we don't know where that was

566
00:35:03,160 --> 00:35:08,560
Speaker 3: spent or yuh, if he did spender himself, maybe he

567
00:35:08,600 --> 00:35:12,600
Speaker 3: probably wasn't getting paid enough. And look, anyone who watches

568
00:35:13,320 --> 00:35:18,000
Speaker 3: that vacation, anyone who watches any spied drum on television,

569
00:35:18,200 --> 00:35:23,600
Speaker 3: you know, the main protagonist of that series is confronted with,

570
00:35:24,840 --> 00:35:28,520
Speaker 3: you know, morally complicated situations on a daily basis. It's

571
00:35:28,560 --> 00:35:33,359
Speaker 3: part of the job, right, So you know the point

572
00:35:33,400 --> 00:35:37,680
Speaker 3: I'm making is that, you know, two decades later, you know,

573
00:35:37,840 --> 00:35:41,080
Speaker 3: some some sort of you know, information on a piece

574
00:35:41,080 --> 00:35:44,359
Speaker 3: of paper that that can be interpreted in a certain way.

575
00:35:44,920 --> 00:35:48,759
Speaker 3: Isn't a slam dunk against that person. You know that

576
00:35:48,920 --> 00:35:51,080
Speaker 3: there's there's a lot more involved, there's a lot more

577
00:35:51,160 --> 00:35:55,120
Speaker 3: nuanced that's that's not there on the paper, And and

578
00:35:55,160 --> 00:35:56,960
Speaker 3: I think that that's what he was a victim of.

579
00:35:57,120 --> 00:35:59,120
Speaker 3: It was just that there was a witch hunt going on,

580
00:35:59,239 --> 00:36:02,920
Speaker 3: and you know, his name had been mentioned by several

581
00:36:02,960 --> 00:36:05,799
Speaker 3: sort of Nazi officers, and on the surface it looked

582
00:36:05,920 --> 00:36:08,040
Speaker 3: very damning, but I don't think it was.

583
00:36:10,640 --> 00:36:12,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like, you know, trying to go after some

584
00:36:12,760 --> 00:36:14,760
Speaker 2: soldiers that had to do their job as a soldier

585
00:36:14,800 --> 00:36:17,160
Speaker 2: and then just try on paper that does not look good,

586
00:36:18,880 --> 00:36:22,040
Speaker 2: but in the in the throes of the situation, it

587
00:36:22,200 --> 00:36:23,359
Speaker 2: may and.

588
00:36:23,760 --> 00:36:27,719
Speaker 3: It's really worth a Russian agent one he would have

589
00:36:27,760 --> 00:36:31,440
Speaker 3: given up, you know, so many of his colleagues to

590
00:36:31,520 --> 00:36:33,759
Speaker 3: the Soviet Union when he had the opportunity, and he

591
00:36:33,800 --> 00:36:36,360
Speaker 3: probably would have ended up living in Russia, not in

592
00:36:36,440 --> 00:36:41,760
Speaker 3: England on an That's what I'm saying. Yeah, So anyway,

593
00:36:41,800 --> 00:36:44,759
Speaker 3: that's that's that's the conclusion that I come to, you know,

594
00:36:44,800 --> 00:36:49,239
Speaker 3: after two years working on this book, and it's you know,

595
00:36:49,320 --> 00:36:53,000
Speaker 3: it's a pretty sad tale really, actually, I think he's

596
00:36:53,080 --> 00:36:55,799
Speaker 3: quite a heroic figure who has just been completely let

597
00:36:55,880 --> 00:36:58,480
Speaker 3: down by by people.

598
00:36:59,480 --> 00:37:02,640
Speaker 2: I think that with reaching out, we could reach our

599
00:37:02,719 --> 00:37:05,520
Speaker 2: listeners and our viewers out there to talk about you know,

600
00:37:05,840 --> 00:37:08,319
Speaker 2: Charles Howard Dick. He goes by Dick, right, that was

601
00:37:08,320 --> 00:37:11,840
Speaker 2: his nickname, was Dick, But it's it's Charles Howard Ellis,

602
00:37:12,040 --> 00:37:13,640
Speaker 2: but he went by Dick. So that's why we keep

603
00:37:13,640 --> 00:37:15,839
Speaker 2: referring him to him as Dick. I'm sure that you know,

604
00:37:16,000 --> 00:37:18,279
Speaker 2: us talking about him and bringing his name back up

605
00:37:18,920 --> 00:37:21,080
Speaker 2: and just opening up this little bit of can of worms,

606
00:37:21,080 --> 00:37:22,759
Speaker 2: like hey, you know, there's a lot of people out

607
00:37:22,760 --> 00:37:26,080
Speaker 2: there that are obsessed with detective podcasts and like you know,

608
00:37:26,360 --> 00:37:29,400
Speaker 2: unsolved crimes and unsolved mysteries, and like, hey, could this

609
00:37:29,520 --> 00:37:32,200
Speaker 2: be you know, rethought about, you know, like what is

610
00:37:32,239 --> 00:37:34,319
Speaker 2: this piece of paper that's charging him? And if they

611
00:37:34,360 --> 00:37:36,600
Speaker 2: go and read your book The Eagle in the Mirror,

612
00:37:36,680 --> 00:37:39,600
Speaker 2: they can start to get better understanding of what we

613
00:37:39,640 --> 00:37:41,879
Speaker 2: are trying to talk about without giving away your entire book.

614
00:37:42,000 --> 00:37:44,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, but I mean, you know, the big import of

615
00:37:45,000 --> 00:37:49,839
Speaker 3: this book, obviously is that an Australian classical musician was

616
00:37:49,920 --> 00:37:55,920
Speaker 3: instrumental in setting up your country CIA, right, and no

617
00:37:55,960 --> 00:38:01,799
Speaker 3: one knows. But now the big thing is, oh, was

618
00:38:01,840 --> 00:38:06,080
Speaker 3: this Australian classical musician also a Nazi and Soviet spy?

619
00:38:06,640 --> 00:38:10,600
Speaker 3: And is your CI a compromised from its very inception?

620
00:38:10,760 --> 00:38:13,000
Speaker 3: And this is not a story you hear anyone talking about.

621
00:38:14,840 --> 00:38:18,640
Speaker 2: No, there needs needs to be a movie. Hello, Knock Knock, Hollywood.

622
00:38:19,600 --> 00:38:24,560
Speaker 3: Yeah. So you know, there's a lot, a lot that

623
00:38:24,680 --> 00:38:30,000
Speaker 3: hasn't been written about, you know, the the sort of

624
00:38:30,040 --> 00:38:35,360
Speaker 3: the intelligent sort of efforts of Britain and in America

625
00:38:35,880 --> 00:38:39,719
Speaker 3: during that sort of pre war period and at the

626
00:38:39,960 --> 00:38:44,360
Speaker 3: early part of World War Two. It's it's quite a

627
00:38:44,400 --> 00:38:47,040
Speaker 3: sort of a murky kind of area for historians. And

628
00:38:47,320 --> 00:38:49,440
Speaker 3: there's obviously a lot of debate going on about what

629
00:38:49,480 --> 00:38:52,600
Speaker 3: the Americans actually really knew about, you know, what was

630
00:38:52,640 --> 00:38:55,800
Speaker 3: going on with the Japanese Pride of Pearl Arbor.

631
00:38:56,400 --> 00:38:59,400
Speaker 2: With Pearl Harbor right exactly, like you know, these preemptives

632
00:38:59,400 --> 00:39:00,719
Speaker 2: that he was trying to let them know, like, hey,

633
00:39:00,719 --> 00:39:03,279
Speaker 2: there's chatter they're trying to coin up an attack. You know,

634
00:39:03,400 --> 00:39:05,800
Speaker 2: I always thought that, you know, Russia went inside of

635
00:39:05,880 --> 00:39:07,960
Speaker 2: Japan to fight America. So Japan decided to take it

636
00:39:08,000 --> 00:39:11,560
Speaker 2: on their own regard to come just attack. But if

637
00:39:11,600 --> 00:39:15,080
Speaker 2: there was prior four months prior notice to the situation,

638
00:39:15,239 --> 00:39:17,520
Speaker 2: and then you know all those sailors and everybody that

639
00:39:17,560 --> 00:39:19,600
Speaker 2: were just in the situation, I mean, look what happened.

640
00:39:19,760 --> 00:39:22,040
Speaker 2: It caused the nuclear or the atomic bomb to be

641
00:39:22,120 --> 00:39:22,760
Speaker 2: taught exactly.

642
00:39:22,840 --> 00:39:25,319
Speaker 3: I mean these have huge consequences for.

643
00:39:27,680 --> 00:39:30,399
Speaker 2: I'm like thinking, wait, what's this domino, this one little

644
00:39:30,440 --> 00:39:35,160
Speaker 2: domino of a musician from Australian Australia, what is his

645
00:39:35,239 --> 00:39:36,960
Speaker 2: domino in this whole nomeno?

646
00:39:38,320 --> 00:39:41,920
Speaker 3: So the whole series of butterfly effects that sort of

647
00:39:42,000 --> 00:39:44,680
Speaker 3: ends up with the dropping of the nuclear bomb on Japan.

648
00:39:45,400 --> 00:39:50,720
Speaker 3: So yeah, so it's it's a it's a very difficult

649
00:39:50,800 --> 00:39:54,320
Speaker 3: kind of it's not an easy it's not an easy child.

650
00:39:54,360 --> 00:39:59,040
Speaker 3: But I think, you know, the greatest, the greatest obstacle

651
00:39:59,040 --> 00:40:02,839
Speaker 3: obviously for me, was you know, you're writing about a spy.

652
00:40:03,000 --> 00:40:05,320
Speaker 3: So spies don't really let you know about what was

653
00:40:05,360 --> 00:40:08,080
Speaker 3: going on in their personal lives, and so you know,

654
00:40:08,280 --> 00:40:10,520
Speaker 3: try and trying to sort of understand who he was

655
00:40:10,560 --> 00:40:14,640
Speaker 3: as a human being on a sort of a personal level.

656
00:40:14,800 --> 00:40:20,480
Speaker 3: Was extremely difficult, but I think I did the best

657
00:40:20,520 --> 00:40:23,799
Speaker 3: possible job that I could do, and I hope that

658
00:40:24,480 --> 00:40:28,680
Speaker 3: you know, someone someone else, maybe you know, goes and

659
00:40:28,760 --> 00:40:32,879
Speaker 3: sort of takes the book and uses it as a

660
00:40:32,880 --> 00:40:35,000
Speaker 3: as a as a starting point to you know, maybe

661
00:40:35,080 --> 00:40:37,400
Speaker 3: try to write more about you know, both him and

662
00:40:37,880 --> 00:40:41,960
Speaker 3: all these very important issues, and that more work is

663
00:40:42,040 --> 00:40:49,280
Speaker 3: done on on you know, the stories like like Pearl

664
00:40:49,280 --> 00:40:53,360
Speaker 3: Harbor and how that happened, and the role of the

665
00:40:53,360 --> 00:40:58,520
Speaker 3: British and the setting up of American intelligence. You know,

666
00:40:59,080 --> 00:41:02,080
Speaker 3: at the moment the I mean you you you look

667
00:41:02,120 --> 00:41:05,439
Speaker 3: at the you know, the O. S. S. And it's all,

668
00:41:05,560 --> 00:41:09,400
Speaker 3: you know, sort of credited to William Donovan. But you

669
00:41:09,440 --> 00:41:15,120
Speaker 3: know that I have multiple quotes in the book from

670
00:41:15,160 --> 00:41:17,960
Speaker 3: from people within the US government saying that Dick Ellis

671
00:41:18,000 --> 00:41:19,919
Speaker 3: was actually running the O. S. S. And it wasn't

672
00:41:19,920 --> 00:41:24,439
Speaker 3: William Donovan, Right, So who is this Australian musician who's

673
00:41:24,520 --> 00:41:27,680
Speaker 3: running the you know, the most important sort of intelligence

674
00:41:28,000 --> 00:41:32,160
Speaker 3: agency for the US government. You know, the fact that

675
00:41:32,160 --> 00:41:37,120
Speaker 3: we're talking about it and is a starting point. But generally,

676
00:41:37,360 --> 00:41:40,839
Speaker 3: you know, the the level of public awareness about you know,

677
00:41:41,400 --> 00:41:44,440
Speaker 3: Dick Ellis and the role of the British and the

678
00:41:44,480 --> 00:41:46,920
Speaker 3: American government at that time is very minimal.

679
00:41:49,000 --> 00:41:51,000
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, because they wanted to keep it low profile.

680
00:41:51,640 --> 00:41:53,920
Speaker 2: Why would they want to boast about it and like

681
00:41:54,040 --> 00:41:56,239
Speaker 2: have all these like, you know, tweets about it back then,

682
00:41:56,320 --> 00:41:58,520
Speaker 2: like oh, hey, Dick Ellis is helping out here, you know,

683
00:41:58,600 --> 00:42:01,600
Speaker 2: and like hey hey Germany, Dick Ellis is over here

684
00:42:01,719 --> 00:42:04,360
Speaker 2: dot x or whatever. I mean, like, you know, we

685
00:42:04,440 --> 00:42:05,840
Speaker 2: kind of put our foot in our mouth all the

686
00:42:05,880 --> 00:42:08,040
Speaker 2: time with these tweets, And I mean, how can you

687
00:42:08,040 --> 00:42:10,279
Speaker 2: have a spy game? How could anybody be a spy

688
00:42:10,360 --> 00:42:13,360
Speaker 2: today at all if they were born with some chip

689
00:42:13,440 --> 00:42:15,279
Speaker 2: in their hands, some screen, you know. I mean, like,

690
00:42:15,800 --> 00:42:17,240
Speaker 2: how do you go about being covert?

691
00:42:17,280 --> 00:42:21,400
Speaker 3: You know, a very good question. I don't know if

692
00:42:21,960 --> 00:42:24,160
Speaker 3: a guy like Ellis would be able to operate today

693
00:42:24,239 --> 00:42:27,880
Speaker 3: with the same efficiency that he did. But you know,

694
00:42:28,000 --> 00:42:30,040
Speaker 3: back in those days it was a very different world

695
00:42:30,120 --> 00:42:33,640
Speaker 3: where you know, just getting from getting from New York

696
00:42:33,680 --> 00:42:36,360
Speaker 3: to London would taken an ordon and amount of dog.

697
00:42:36,239 --> 00:42:40,400
Speaker 2: You know, correct, And the camera systems in London today

698
00:42:40,920 --> 00:42:43,279
Speaker 2: are nothing compared to what was happening back then. Now

699
00:42:43,280 --> 00:42:45,840
Speaker 2: you can like follow every your film like fifteen thousand

700
00:42:45,880 --> 00:42:46,800
Speaker 2: times in a minute.

701
00:42:47,120 --> 00:42:50,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, and we have mobile phones and social media.

702
00:42:50,400 --> 00:42:54,319
Speaker 2: It's like a hundred percent complete, so everybody's their own

703
00:42:54,320 --> 00:42:57,680
Speaker 2: production company and filming and uploading, a producer and director

704
00:42:57,719 --> 00:43:02,959
Speaker 2: and actor. Dude, this would make a really good either

705
00:43:03,120 --> 00:43:06,839
Speaker 2: series because then you can follow the Dick ellis, you know,

706
00:43:07,200 --> 00:43:10,960
Speaker 2: from you know, classical music learning guy to who he is.

707
00:43:11,000 --> 00:43:13,120
Speaker 2: This would make a great series, honestly, not I mean

708
00:43:13,120 --> 00:43:16,400
Speaker 2: a movie would be great, you know with you know,

709
00:43:16,680 --> 00:43:20,080
Speaker 2: that would be awesome, but a series would be cool too, right,

710
00:43:20,120 --> 00:43:22,799
Speaker 2: because I just that'd be cool if make Because you

711
00:43:22,800 --> 00:43:25,719
Speaker 2: said it yourself. We've watched so many spy movies. We

712
00:43:25,840 --> 00:43:26,160
Speaker 2: like him.

713
00:43:26,480 --> 00:43:30,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, there's I think. Look, I mean all the

714
00:43:30,640 --> 00:43:34,400
Speaker 3: books that I've done, I think I think, you know,

715
00:43:34,520 --> 00:43:40,440
Speaker 3: the pure Na book would be probably the easiest to

716
00:43:40,560 --> 00:43:42,720
Speaker 3: translate into it into a series.

717
00:43:43,960 --> 00:43:46,279
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, pure and narc Oh, yeah, for sure, and

718
00:43:46,320 --> 00:43:47,279
Speaker 2: everybody would watch that.

719
00:43:47,719 --> 00:43:47,919
Speaker 1: Yeah.

720
00:43:48,440 --> 00:43:50,279
Speaker 3: At the time, you know, we had a we had

721
00:43:50,280 --> 00:43:54,560
Speaker 3: an agent, the guy who was uh the agent for

722
00:43:54,640 --> 00:43:57,520
Speaker 3: Jack Rachel. He was handling it.

723
00:43:57,600 --> 00:44:05,480
Speaker 5: And what happened was that basically we got the feedback

724
00:44:05,560 --> 00:44:09,279
Speaker 5: that at that time when the book came out, you know,

725
00:44:09,320 --> 00:44:11,800
Speaker 5: it was just really just issue of timing, that the

726
00:44:11,840 --> 00:44:17,000
Speaker 5: whole Narco's craze had kind of died out a bit,

727
00:44:17,560 --> 00:44:22,480
Speaker 5: and that you know, drug trafficking wasn't the flavor of

728
00:44:22,480 --> 00:44:26,920
Speaker 5: the month anymore, and that and that producers just wanted

729
00:44:27,040 --> 00:44:29,160
Speaker 5: strong female characters.

730
00:44:29,760 --> 00:44:34,280
Speaker 2: Okay, okay, okay, okay, cool, cool, cool, and narcos.

731
00:44:35,040 --> 00:44:37,480
Speaker 3: And so there wasn't really much we could do about it.

732
00:44:37,520 --> 00:44:41,280
Speaker 3: So yeah, unfortunately that didn't get made into a series.

733
00:44:41,320 --> 00:44:44,480
Speaker 3: But you know the thing is these things are all cyclical,

734
00:44:45,800 --> 00:44:49,880
Speaker 3: and you know, drug trafficking will become very popular on

735
00:44:49,920 --> 00:44:52,840
Speaker 3: television I'm sure like within the next three to four years,

736
00:44:52,880 --> 00:44:56,040
Speaker 3: and you know, pil Narco will get made into a series.

737
00:44:56,120 --> 00:44:57,279
Speaker 3: So you know, that's just the way.

738
00:44:57,320 --> 00:44:59,719
Speaker 2: Well, it's still justice, it's still just as going on,

739
00:45:00,080 --> 00:45:04,120
Speaker 2: know as it was. And I mean, as long as

740
00:45:04,120 --> 00:45:08,160
Speaker 2: we have the three letter agency running DEA laws around here,

741
00:45:08,200 --> 00:45:11,120
Speaker 2: there's always going to be guys trying to get underneath

742
00:45:11,120 --> 00:45:14,120
Speaker 2: their skirt their laws. That would make a great TV

743
00:45:14,239 --> 00:45:18,240
Speaker 2: series that I'd love to be in it on the beach,

744
00:45:18,400 --> 00:45:20,239
Speaker 2: I'll be a guy on the beach all he went

745
00:45:20,320 --> 00:45:21,000
Speaker 2: that way.

746
00:45:22,360 --> 00:45:24,520
Speaker 3: That was one of the themes of that book actually

747
00:45:24,760 --> 00:45:29,160
Speaker 3: was was you know the whole issue of the War

748
00:45:29,200 --> 00:45:33,680
Speaker 3: on drugs and how the War on drugs was really

749
00:45:34,040 --> 00:45:38,960
Speaker 3: kind of propping up this you know, huge American bureaucracy,

750
00:45:39,000 --> 00:45:41,799
Speaker 3: all these sort of government agencies that were sort of

751
00:45:41,840 --> 00:45:46,840
Speaker 3: dedicated to destroying drugs, and you know the how the

752
00:45:46,920 --> 00:45:51,320
Speaker 3: you know, the the people customs, the court system, the

753
00:45:52,200 --> 00:45:57,160
Speaker 3: Bureau of Prisons. How it was this massive ecosystem that

754
00:45:57,560 --> 00:46:01,440
Speaker 3: basically relied on drugs to exist and that you know,

755
00:46:01,560 --> 00:46:05,400
Speaker 3: tens of thousands of people relant on on you know,

756
00:46:07,480 --> 00:46:11,160
Speaker 3: salaries from their jobs for these agencies to you know,

757
00:46:11,239 --> 00:46:14,840
Speaker 3: to take them through to retirement. And it gets in

758
00:46:14,920 --> 00:46:17,760
Speaker 3: no one's interest to actually solve this particular problem.

759
00:46:18,680 --> 00:46:20,440
Speaker 2: We're all getting paid because we're.

760
00:46:20,280 --> 00:46:22,360
Speaker 3: All getting paid, and we're all going to retire early

761
00:46:22,400 --> 00:46:25,480
Speaker 3: at fifty or whatever. And why would we want to

762
00:46:25,600 --> 00:46:29,520
Speaker 3: sort of crush the cartels when you know, we can

763
00:46:29,560 --> 00:46:32,360
Speaker 3: continue to get paid and get paid very well and

764
00:46:32,719 --> 00:46:34,560
Speaker 3: retire early and sort of have.

765
00:46:36,080 --> 00:46:39,640
Speaker 2: Got very Goldwater involved, and you know, brought Goldwater in

766
00:46:39,640 --> 00:46:41,480
Speaker 2: to start the DEA and then all of a sudden

767
00:46:41,520 --> 00:46:46,040
Speaker 2: you've got you know, communities being affected by you know,

768
00:46:46,160 --> 00:46:49,560
Speaker 2: DEA agents and throwing them in jail and disrupting families

769
00:46:49,640 --> 00:46:53,120
Speaker 2: over you know, even pot, right, cannabis and marijuana and stuff,

770
00:46:53,160 --> 00:46:56,400
Speaker 2: because it's it's so highly scheduled, right, all these drugs

771
00:46:56,400 --> 00:46:59,120
Speaker 2: are so highly scheduled. I'm a big believer in freedom

772
00:46:59,120 --> 00:47:03,120
Speaker 2: of choice. However, I understand that, you know, what can

773
00:47:03,160 --> 00:47:05,720
Speaker 2: you do when someone like the president creates this entity

774
00:47:05,760 --> 00:47:08,200
Speaker 2: to go after and they give it billions of dollars?

775
00:47:08,719 --> 00:47:10,920
Speaker 2: So who at the top is going to want to

776
00:47:10,920 --> 00:47:12,560
Speaker 2: ever say, oh, I don't want this job. I got

777
00:47:12,560 --> 00:47:15,840
Speaker 2: billions of dollars at my disposal. I've got teams of

778
00:47:15,840 --> 00:47:18,680
Speaker 2: people at my disposal. We're all making incomes, and we're

779
00:47:18,680 --> 00:47:21,800
Speaker 2: all you know, you know, making incomes.

780
00:47:22,120 --> 00:47:25,359
Speaker 3: Yeah, but like you know, I was in New York,

781
00:47:25,480 --> 00:47:29,320
Speaker 3: you know when we first spoke, and I was shocked.

782
00:47:29,480 --> 00:47:33,000
Speaker 3: I was absolutely shocked by what I was seeing with

783
00:47:33,120 --> 00:47:35,440
Speaker 3: the street, like just from the last time that I

784
00:47:35,480 --> 00:47:39,239
Speaker 3: was there about ten years ago, like seeing you know,

785
00:47:39,360 --> 00:47:42,480
Speaker 3: people who were you know, look like zombies were on something.

786
00:47:42,520 --> 00:47:45,319
Speaker 3: And it's like I hadn't seen that the last time

787
00:47:45,360 --> 00:47:48,120
Speaker 3: I was in New York, and so something going on there.

788
00:47:48,200 --> 00:47:51,319
Speaker 3: And I don't know where you live, but I was

789
00:47:51,440 --> 00:47:54,840
Speaker 3: utah utah, right, I don't know what the fentomyl situation

790
00:47:55,000 --> 00:47:55,920
Speaker 3: is in.

791
00:47:56,280 --> 00:48:00,279
Speaker 2: That's just like, yeah, that's the word methth but you

792
00:48:00,280 --> 00:48:02,680
Speaker 2: want to know what it is. It's adderall. It's descriptions

793
00:48:02,680 --> 00:48:10,799
Speaker 2: of adderall to children that the parents are taking. Let's

794
00:48:10,840 --> 00:48:11,279
Speaker 2: be clear.

795
00:48:11,680 --> 00:48:17,719
Speaker 3: In in New York, I was just shocked in a

796
00:48:17,840 --> 00:48:20,640
Speaker 3: terrible state and there were you know, people who looked

797
00:48:20,680 --> 00:48:24,359
Speaker 3: like literally they'd been sort of you know, exhumed from

798
00:48:24,360 --> 00:48:30,080
Speaker 3: a crypt. So there's obviously like a serious sort of

799
00:48:30,160 --> 00:48:35,840
Speaker 3: social kind of sort of problem going on there with

800
00:48:35,840 --> 00:48:39,160
Speaker 3: with you know, rampant kind of drug use. And obviously

801
00:48:39,200 --> 00:48:42,440
Speaker 3: I think, you know, not just the United States, but

802
00:48:42,520 --> 00:48:46,440
Speaker 3: you know Britain. Britain's got the same problems. Australia has

803
00:48:46,440 --> 00:48:50,080
Speaker 3: got not not as bad as the US, but we're

804
00:48:50,120 --> 00:48:52,319
Speaker 3: also to deal with. But we've got to come up

805
00:48:52,320 --> 00:48:54,000
Speaker 3: with different solutions to the drug problem.

806
00:48:54,800 --> 00:48:56,960
Speaker 2: It's really interesting because we'll give it to our pilots,

807
00:48:57,400 --> 00:48:59,560
Speaker 2: you know, like here's here's some go pills, is what

808
00:48:59,560 --> 00:49:01,920
Speaker 2: it's called. I'm going to say that, right, A lot

809
00:49:01,920 --> 00:49:05,720
Speaker 2: of the pilots that fly these jets they're called got pills,

810
00:49:06,640 --> 00:49:08,359
Speaker 2: and they get out of the military and where's these

811
00:49:08,360 --> 00:49:12,080
Speaker 2: got pills at right right where are they? You know,

812
00:49:12,160 --> 00:49:13,600
Speaker 2: so now of a sudden they're starting to go and

813
00:49:13,640 --> 00:49:15,759
Speaker 2: wander and find it and get involved in you know,

814
00:49:16,080 --> 00:49:19,160
Speaker 2: the corner alley and whatever you want to see, you know, shading,

815
00:49:19,200 --> 00:49:21,279
Speaker 2: this is what they're called. But you know, and it's

816
00:49:21,320 --> 00:49:23,960
Speaker 2: just like, uh, it goes from being prescribed, is what

817
00:49:24,000 --> 00:49:26,319
Speaker 2: I'm kind of getting at too. They go downhill to

818
00:49:26,320 --> 00:49:28,080
Speaker 2: try to find it after the prescription stops.

819
00:49:28,360 --> 00:49:34,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, story is like but you know, dude, I mean

820
00:49:34,480 --> 00:49:37,879
Speaker 3: it goes you know. What I was getting at is that,

821
00:49:38,280 --> 00:49:41,400
Speaker 3: you know, they in telling the story of this, this

822
00:49:41,480 --> 00:49:47,240
Speaker 3: cartail member, he's recommendation really was that you legalized cocaine.

823
00:49:48,719 --> 00:49:52,319
Speaker 3: That you know, you stopped the cartail the boat by

824
00:49:52,400 --> 00:49:56,959
Speaker 3: doing that. And that's not a conversation that I think

825
00:49:57,160 --> 00:50:02,719
Speaker 3: is h people are ready for yet, but I think

826
00:50:02,760 --> 00:50:05,080
Speaker 3: it's inevitable. But you know, how are you going to

827
00:50:05,160 --> 00:50:10,520
Speaker 3: stop things? Caw tills. It's a major situation, and that's

828
00:50:10,560 --> 00:50:11,759
Speaker 3: a right.

829
00:50:12,520 --> 00:50:16,880
Speaker 2: You legalize that. If you legalize it, in my opinion,

830
00:50:17,000 --> 00:50:19,560
Speaker 2: you kind of cut back on the trafficking of the humans,

831
00:50:19,560 --> 00:50:23,000
Speaker 2: which is the biggest problem. Yeah, okay, so then you

832
00:50:23,040 --> 00:50:25,839
Speaker 2: cut out the mules of the human trafficking, because now

833
00:50:25,840 --> 00:50:28,440
Speaker 2: there's only just going to be like you know, uh,

834
00:50:28,600 --> 00:50:30,680
Speaker 2: really ill wheel trafficking and you got to stop that.

835
00:50:30,680 --> 00:50:32,799
Speaker 2: That's what it should be about, is that kind of

836
00:50:33,320 --> 00:50:38,000
Speaker 2: human enslavery junk like that that they are made to

837
00:50:38,040 --> 00:50:40,960
Speaker 2: carry that across into borders and into other countries. Guys

838
00:50:41,000 --> 00:50:44,439
Speaker 2: writing in coffins called a submarine that the coast Guard

839
00:50:44,440 --> 00:50:46,520
Speaker 2: are banging on trying to get them to open up

840
00:50:46,800 --> 00:50:48,520
Speaker 2: as they're just barely above the water. You know, these

841
00:50:48,560 --> 00:50:51,600
Speaker 2: guys are risking their everything for whatever reason. We don't know,

842
00:50:51,840 --> 00:50:55,160
Speaker 2: political persecution in their country. Their families could be held hostage,

843
00:50:55,160 --> 00:50:57,080
Speaker 2: and you don't know that they have guns to their heads.

844
00:50:57,120 --> 00:50:58,840
Speaker 2: And these guys have to go into the submarine and

845
00:50:59,040 --> 00:51:01,560
Speaker 2: traffic the stuff because they're just now pawn in the

846
00:51:01,600 --> 00:51:05,160
Speaker 2: whole scheme. There's just so much. And yeah, so we

847
00:51:05,160 --> 00:51:08,759
Speaker 2: should check out your books. We should check out the

848
00:51:08,920 --> 00:51:14,840
Speaker 2: tell me the name of the Narcos book, Pure Narco,

849
00:51:14,920 --> 00:51:16,520
Speaker 2: and that's already out, and so we're going to put

850
00:51:16,520 --> 00:51:20,000
Speaker 2: that in the little dissertation on our website. We'll have

851
00:51:20,040 --> 00:51:22,799
Speaker 2: Pure Narco in there. And then also of course we've

852
00:51:22,800 --> 00:51:25,800
Speaker 2: been talking about the Eagle in the mirror and Dick Ellis,

853
00:51:25,920 --> 00:51:29,160
Speaker 2: Charles Howard Ellis and his role within World War two

854
00:51:29,440 --> 00:51:32,520
Speaker 2: and the world at that time, and how he was

855
00:51:32,560 --> 00:51:36,960
Speaker 2: such an intricate piece to the security of nations. And

856
00:51:37,000 --> 00:51:40,480
Speaker 2: I'm just ed Hee's a musician from Australia, Okay, and

857
00:51:40,560 --> 00:51:42,160
Speaker 2: I just want to bring that up, all right, so

858
00:51:42,280 --> 00:51:43,959
Speaker 2: rock and roll, you know I love rock and roll.

859
00:51:44,320 --> 00:51:48,080
Speaker 2: And then we just had a great conversation and I

860
00:51:48,120 --> 00:51:49,880
Speaker 2: just want to really thank you for taking the time

861
00:51:50,200 --> 00:51:52,160
Speaker 2: on the other side of the world for me over

862
00:51:52,200 --> 00:51:54,640
Speaker 2: there in London. I'm here in Utah, so thank you.

863
00:51:54,680 --> 00:51:56,680
Speaker 2: On this day, it is Sunday, so I just want

864
00:51:56,719 --> 00:51:58,680
Speaker 2: to say thank you for making the time to link

865
00:51:58,760 --> 00:51:59,760
Speaker 2: up with me on a Sunday.

866
00:52:00,160 --> 00:52:02,719
Speaker 3: No worries. It's good to talk to you again. And

867
00:52:03,520 --> 00:52:05,680
Speaker 3: hopefully so came together perfectly.

868
00:52:06,880 --> 00:52:10,680
Speaker 2: It does it is. You're great and you're really enjoyable

869
00:52:10,680 --> 00:52:13,200
Speaker 2: to listen to. And I know my listener, uh is

870
00:52:13,239 --> 00:52:15,360
Speaker 2: going to enjoy this conversation and we're all going to

871
00:52:15,400 --> 00:52:19,520
Speaker 2: be opened up now more to talking about Dick Ellison,

872
00:52:19,760 --> 00:52:21,920
Speaker 2: making our own opinion about the guy, right, you know,

873
00:52:22,000 --> 00:52:25,480
Speaker 2: let's give him another chance at you know, being a

874
00:52:25,480 --> 00:52:29,719
Speaker 2: successful dude for America. And the Allies all right during

875
00:52:29,760 --> 00:52:33,600
Speaker 2: a really bad time. So on behalf of Jesse Fink

876
00:52:33,640 --> 00:52:35,480
Speaker 2: and his book The Eagle in the Mirror and his

877
00:52:35,560 --> 00:52:37,960
Speaker 2: publicist and I'm gonna give you a shout out and

878
00:52:38,320 --> 00:52:41,000
Speaker 2: okay because you're ranging all this, so thanks so much.

879
00:52:41,040 --> 00:52:45,279
Speaker 2: I appreciate you. And Brandon Brandon Webb who runs the site,

880
00:52:45,440 --> 00:52:48,720
Speaker 2: and Anton who's my producer, and guy who's an editor,

881
00:52:49,239 --> 00:52:52,560
Speaker 2: Martin on the back end. Thank you so much everybody.

882
00:52:52,640 --> 00:52:54,319
Speaker 2: And I just want to say go check out the

883
00:52:54,360 --> 00:52:57,800
Speaker 2: merch store and thesoft rep dot com forwards. Last book,

884
00:52:57,880 --> 00:53:00,880
Speaker 2: hyphen Club, and this is rad Save peace.

885
00:53:06,200 --> 00:53:09,680
Speaker 1: You've been listening to self red Ldia h