WEBVTT - Evolving through Grief with Dr. Laura Berman 0:00:03.080 --> 0:00:06.780 Welcome to Deeply Well. This show is a soft place 0:00:06.840 --> 0:00:10.180 to land on your journey, a space where we explore 0:00:10.260 --> 0:00:14.050 what it truly means to live well from the inside out. 0:00:14.950 --> 0:00:21.730 Not perfectly, but honestly. This is Deeply Well. Welcome back 0:00:21.770 --> 0:00:26.360 to Deeply Well. I'm Debbie Brown. Today's guest is Dr. 0:00:26.460 --> 0:00:31.180 Laura Berman, a New York Times bestselling author, renowned relationship 0:00:31.280 --> 0:00:36.380 and intimacy expert, podcast host, and longtime voice in conversations 0:00:36.500 --> 0:00:42.080 around love, connection, grief, and healing. For decades, Dr. Berman 0:00:42.120 --> 0:00:46.830 has helped people better understand themselves and their relationships, appearing 0:00:46.890 --> 0:00:50.290 as a therapist on The Oprah Winfrey Show, hosting multiple 0:00:50.330 --> 0:00:55.010 television programs, and sharing her expertise across national media. But 0:00:55.050 --> 0:00:59.850 in February of 2021, her life changed forever when her 0:00:59.870 --> 0:01:04.360 16-year-old son, Sammy, passed away. they're taking a fentanyl laced 0:01:04.459 --> 0:01:08.380 drug that was sold to him through Snapchat. In the 0:01:08.420 --> 0:01:12.559 years since, Laura has allowed her grief to become part 0:01:12.660 --> 0:01:16.340 of an expanded chapter of her work. She's become a 0:01:16.500 --> 0:01:21.300 national advocate for social media safety and fentanyl awareness, while 0:01:21.340 --> 0:01:26.199 also creating spaces for grieving mothers to gather, connect, and 0:01:26.280 --> 0:01:30.919 feel less alone through her grieving mama meetups, courses, and retreats. 0:01:32.000 --> 0:01:36.080 Today we're creating space for an honest conversation about grief, 0:01:36.250 --> 0:01:39.550 about motherhood, about love, and about what it means to 0:01:39.610 --> 0:01:45.070 continue living alongside profound loss. We'll explore how grief changes us, 0:01:45.270 --> 0:01:49.490 how our relationships with those we've lost can continue, and 0:01:49.550 --> 0:01:53.850 what Laura has learned about healing, purpose, and the capacity 0:01:54.070 --> 0:01:59.740 of the human heart. Welcome to the show, Dr. Laura Berman. 0:01:59.780 --> 0:02:03.000 Thank you. I'm so happy to be with you. Thank 0:02:03.020 --> 0:02:05.559 you so much for being here. I've had the pleasure 0:02:05.800 --> 0:02:08.720 of joining you on your show and also joining the 0:02:08.780 --> 0:02:13.570 beautiful community of grieving mothers that you've created and being 0:02:13.630 --> 0:02:17.029 able to talk with you there. And this work that 0:02:17.050 --> 0:02:22.670 you do, my goodness, it's so interesting, right? Because I 0:02:22.730 --> 0:02:28.290 think from the outside can be like such range, like intimacy, grief. 0:02:28.870 --> 0:02:32.250 It's like And it's all of it. Like our human 0:02:32.310 --> 0:02:36.490 experience is all of it. It is like the quest, 0:02:36.610 --> 0:02:40.770 the journey, the seeking of understanding and living pleasure, of 0:02:40.930 --> 0:02:46.680 understanding and integrating grief. And it's all of them are 0:02:46.850 --> 0:02:50.299 so vast and so potent. So I think, you know, 0:02:50.340 --> 0:02:52.800 before we even begin in all the questions and the 0:02:52.840 --> 0:02:55.579 books and the things, the year is 2026. We are 0:02:55.600 --> 0:03:02.260 alive on earth. How are you feeling? What is your 0:03:02.820 --> 0:03:10.639 intention for this moment? I feel very, very alive and 0:03:10.760 --> 0:03:14.220 very grateful. One of the first, and we can get into, 0:03:14.260 --> 0:03:18.530 I had a very metaphysical experience very quickly, like maybe 0:03:18.550 --> 0:03:21.950 a week after Sammy died, that really set me on 0:03:21.970 --> 0:03:24.510 the path to healing. But one of the key elements 0:03:24.550 --> 0:03:28.510 of that, which has not left me, is that I was... 0:03:29.190 --> 0:03:36.250 able to experience physically, emotionally, in every level, what a 0:03:36.330 --> 0:03:39.870 profound gift it is to have a life, to have 0:03:39.930 --> 0:03:45.090 a body. It is such a gift to be alive. 0:03:45.490 --> 0:03:49.450 And it's not always easy, of course. And there's a 0:03:49.490 --> 0:03:52.470 lot of pain. But where I am today, which is 0:03:52.530 --> 0:03:56.180 five and a half years after Sammy's loss. And I 0:03:56.220 --> 0:03:58.780 was no stranger to loss before he died. I had 0:03:58.880 --> 0:04:01.380 already lost both my parents and my grandmothers and been 0:04:01.420 --> 0:04:03.960 by their sides when they took their last breath and 0:04:04.020 --> 0:04:09.119 several friends. But losing him was deeper and wider than 0:04:09.280 --> 0:04:14.140 anything I could have ever imagined. And I had done, 0:04:14.260 --> 0:04:16.839 by the time he died, I had done enough of 0:04:16.900 --> 0:04:19.040 my own healing work and trauma work that I was 0:04:19.160 --> 0:04:21.380 really in a beautiful place. And I felt really good 0:04:21.420 --> 0:04:23.260 about who I was and how I moved in the world. 0:04:24.160 --> 0:04:27.810 But what I can tell you now is that I 0:04:27.850 --> 0:04:30.390 like this version of me even more. I mean, I'd 0:04:30.430 --> 0:04:32.510 give it all back in a hot second to have 0:04:32.570 --> 0:04:38.410 him back. But I like this version even more. Wow. Yeah. Wow. Wow. 0:04:39.670 --> 0:04:43.279 In those, you know, it's like, my goodness, this five 0:04:43.339 --> 0:04:52.080 and a half year journey. What are the words for grief, right? Like, 0:04:52.120 --> 0:04:56.560 it's like, I think... there is such recalibrating that is constantly, 0:04:56.750 --> 0:05:01.380 constantly happening. When your body is looking like, what do 0:05:01.520 --> 0:05:06.260 I do with this? All the parts of us are 0:05:07.440 --> 0:05:09.880 trying to find a way to organize around it or 0:05:09.900 --> 0:05:12.380 to move it, to be with it. And I think, 0:05:13.140 --> 0:05:16.339 you know, as like conversations about grief are expanding and 0:05:18.480 --> 0:05:23.900 there are concepts and the greater understanding like, it becomes 0:05:23.960 --> 0:05:28.560 a companion alongside you, right? What does that mean? And 0:05:29.120 --> 0:05:33.930 what is that process like as you kind of adjust 0:05:33.990 --> 0:05:39.529 and calibrate to a changing form? It really is a moving, 0:05:39.710 --> 0:05:44.130 living thing. And it's an evolution. You know, I work now, 0:05:44.750 --> 0:05:47.960 I've worked with thousands of grievers and all kinds of, 0:05:48.040 --> 0:05:50.219 you know, all types of grief, mamas for sure, but 0:05:50.300 --> 0:05:55.350 all kinds of grievers. Um, And, you know, often they'll 0:05:55.390 --> 0:05:56.830 say to me, well, you know, I thought I was 0:05:56.850 --> 0:05:59.070 doing really well. It's been three years and now I'm 0:05:59.110 --> 0:06:02.230 having all of this sadness or feeling stuck like I 0:06:02.270 --> 0:06:05.099 was in the beginning. And I always try to explain 0:06:05.160 --> 0:06:10.420 to people two things. First, it's a spiral, right? So 0:06:10.779 --> 0:06:16.380 you do circle back, but at a deeper level of healing. 0:06:16.520 --> 0:06:20.679 Sometimes it's because your capacity is better. stronger and greater. 0:06:20.779 --> 0:06:23.500 So you can release more of that pain or process 0:06:23.540 --> 0:06:26.080 more of that pain. Sometimes it's because you're at a 0:06:26.140 --> 0:06:28.400 new phase of life where you're wanting to or needing 0:06:28.420 --> 0:06:30.700 to really step into something. And so there's some things 0:06:30.740 --> 0:06:33.240 that need to be healed. It's like the body is 0:06:33.440 --> 0:06:36.700 so brilliant and the soul is even more brilliant that 0:06:37.240 --> 0:06:40.550 you go deeper. I always try to reassure people, you 0:06:40.930 --> 0:06:44.350 aren't backtracking. You aren't going back to where you are. 0:06:44.390 --> 0:06:48.000 You're evolving more deeply into where you're going. So that's, 0:06:48.220 --> 0:06:50.340 I think, a really big part of the evolution. And 0:06:50.360 --> 0:06:52.400 the other thing that I really think is important to 0:06:52.460 --> 0:06:56.720 understand is that the grief never, ever gets smaller. I 0:06:56.760 --> 0:06:59.360 have an illustration in the first chapter of my book 0:06:59.420 --> 0:07:03.420 that shows six, like three jars on the top and 0:07:03.460 --> 0:07:05.620 three on the bottom. And this is what people think 0:07:05.680 --> 0:07:08.659 grief looks like. And it's a big ball of grief 0:07:08.700 --> 0:07:11.140 in the jar. The jar is the same size. And 0:07:11.160 --> 0:07:13.400 then the second, then it gets a little smaller and 0:07:13.420 --> 0:07:15.860 a little smaller over time. That is not what happens. 0:07:16.970 --> 0:07:23.380 The grief stays the same. What changes is our capacity 0:07:23.580 --> 0:07:27.440 to hold it and to live within it and alongside 0:07:27.480 --> 0:07:31.820 of it and to move with it. You have to learn. 0:07:31.840 --> 0:07:36.080 The thing to me that is so beautiful about grief, 0:07:36.580 --> 0:07:39.790 and grief is trauma, so we could say this about 0:07:39.930 --> 0:07:44.170 any big trauma, but especially loss that is so imbued 0:07:44.190 --> 0:07:48.950 with love, is that it's a portal. It's a portal 0:07:48.970 --> 0:07:52.150 of transformation. It will burn away everything that doesn't matter. 0:07:52.570 --> 0:07:55.770 It will change you in ways you can't even imagine. 0:07:55.810 --> 0:07:58.770 It will show you what's important. It will grow your soul. 0:07:58.890 --> 0:08:02.230 It will grow your capacity. It will change your relationships. 0:08:02.310 --> 0:08:07.370 It changes everything. And that can be scary. People often 0:08:07.430 --> 0:08:09.390 said to me in the beginning, and they still do, 0:08:10.430 --> 0:08:13.050 but I remember the week or 10 days after the 0:08:13.090 --> 0:08:16.340 news went viral when Sammy died, And name the news 0:08:16.400 --> 0:08:20.600 channel or the show, daytime, nighttime, they were calling. And 0:08:20.740 --> 0:08:23.690 at first, I was like, I can't even complete a sentence. 0:08:23.770 --> 0:08:25.570 I have snot running down my face. It's not like 0:08:25.590 --> 0:08:27.350 I'm going to do hair and makeup. I can't go 0:08:27.410 --> 0:08:29.450 on these shows. But at the time, I was just 0:08:29.530 --> 0:08:33.309 focused on alerting other families about the danger that took Sammy. 0:08:33.330 --> 0:08:35.850 Because I was a very informed parent and had no 0:08:35.929 --> 0:08:38.900 idea at the time, back in 2021, that there were 0:08:38.940 --> 0:08:43.540 drug dealers being sent through the algorithm to my kid. 0:08:44.160 --> 0:08:45.880 And that they would deliver it to the house like 0:08:45.920 --> 0:08:49.630 a pizza. And that 65% of street drugs have fentanyl 0:08:49.690 --> 0:08:51.569 in it. And it only takes a few grains of 0:08:51.650 --> 0:08:53.449 sand worth to kill you. So I was just like, 0:08:53.550 --> 0:08:56.010 I'm going to let everybody know. And as I was doing, 0:08:56.309 --> 0:08:57.790 I could only do it for 10 days. And then 0:08:57.809 --> 0:09:00.270 I cried uncle and I went deep into healing. And 0:09:00.309 --> 0:09:03.719 my husband thankfully took the mantle of the advocacy piece. 0:09:04.170 --> 0:09:06.740 But I remember I was sitting on the set of Dr. Phil. 0:09:07.700 --> 0:09:09.820 And he looks at me during the commercial break. And 0:09:09.860 --> 0:09:11.620 he was the first person to say this to me. 0:09:12.120 --> 0:09:14.380 And there have been millions since. He looks at me. 0:09:14.380 --> 0:09:16.980 He goes, I'm so sorry. I don't know how you're 0:09:17.040 --> 0:09:19.920 surviving this. If this happened to me, I don't know 0:09:19.970 --> 0:09:23.210 how I would survive. And at the time, I was like, 0:09:23.730 --> 0:09:25.690 I don't know how to answer that. I don't have 0:09:25.710 --> 0:09:29.510 a choice. I don't know how I'm surviving either. And 0:09:30.190 --> 0:09:33.410 over time, and now what I realize and what I 0:09:33.550 --> 0:09:36.500 answer when people say that to me, which they often do, 0:09:37.170 --> 0:09:40.520 is I did not survive it. The woman I was 0:09:40.620 --> 0:09:45.700 on February 6, 2021 died with my son on February 7, 2020. 0:09:45.700 --> 0:09:48.940 She is gone. And that's part of the evolution is 0:09:49.000 --> 0:09:53.429 that you are not the same person after profound loss 0:09:53.490 --> 0:09:58.890 like that. Everything reconfigures, everything changes. And there's grief in 0:09:58.910 --> 0:10:01.890 that too, because you're never going to go back to 0:10:01.929 --> 0:10:05.740 that version of yourself. But what can happen and what 0:10:05.820 --> 0:10:08.400 does happen if you're brave enough to go into that 0:10:08.940 --> 0:10:12.540 pain and into the portal is that it will transform 0:10:12.559 --> 0:10:15.870 you in the most beautiful ways. You know, I love 0:10:16.290 --> 0:10:19.330 looking to nature and I love the butterfly. I didn't 0:10:19.370 --> 0:10:22.870 know until adulthood. I thought caterpillars go into the cocoon 0:10:22.929 --> 0:10:26.250 and kind of morph and grow wings. I did not 0:10:26.330 --> 0:10:30.410 know that they completely decompensate. The caterpillar goes into the cocoon, 0:10:30.470 --> 0:10:35.310 completely decompensates to mush, and then has what scientists call 0:10:35.330 --> 0:10:39.410 the imaginal cells of the butterfly inside the soup. And 0:10:39.590 --> 0:10:45.280 slowly in this cocoon, reconfigures into this beautiful version of itself. 0:10:45.940 --> 0:10:48.920 And what's even cooler is that I recently discovered, I 0:10:49.440 --> 0:10:51.440 think it's like only been in the past couple of years, 0:10:51.480 --> 0:10:54.280 this boy genius, like you have a boy genius artist, 0:10:54.300 --> 0:10:58.500 your son, this young kid, 10 years old, does this experiment. 0:10:58.620 --> 0:11:02.020 And now it's being replicated in a huge way at Georgetown, 0:11:02.160 --> 0:11:06.280 where they found that butterflies actually have memories of what 0:11:06.320 --> 0:11:10.940 they learned as caterpillars. Wow. So they turn to soup. 0:11:11.780 --> 0:11:16.840 they totally reconfigure, but they still have the memories and 0:11:16.880 --> 0:11:19.179 the understanding of who they were. And that to me 0:11:19.260 --> 0:11:26.719 is such a beautiful representation of what happens with grief. God, like, oh, 0:11:28.059 --> 0:11:30.940 that example. And I think so many of us don't 0:11:31.040 --> 0:11:37.670 know those inner workings, right? And the analogy of the butterfly, 0:11:37.830 --> 0:11:40.910 it's beautiful either way, right? Like it's beautiful when you 0:11:40.970 --> 0:11:44.959 think it transforms into that yes but then to take 0:11:44.980 --> 0:11:46.900 it to that deeper layer and say no it actually 0:11:46.970 --> 0:11:53.729 like completely was dissolved and destroyed and died and something 0:11:53.830 --> 0:12:11.500 else entirely yes rose up from what that was When 0:12:11.540 --> 0:12:14.540 you shared, you know, what you just said about Dr. 0:12:14.660 --> 0:12:17.059 Phil saying to you first, right? I think like that 0:12:17.300 --> 0:12:24.170 is the reaction everyone has about anything that's really unfathomably hard, right? 0:12:24.230 --> 0:12:28.530 It's just, I could never survive this. I could never survive. 0:12:28.570 --> 0:12:32.309 And like what you said, what was the option? I 0:12:32.350 --> 0:12:36.439 didn't have a choice. I didn't necessarily choose survival, but autonomically, 0:12:36.460 --> 0:12:44.090 I'm still going, you know? Yeah. To be in a moment, 0:12:48.809 --> 0:12:54.329 to be autonomically surviving, what do you actually need to hear? 0:12:54.650 --> 0:13:01.569 What do you actually need from another person? In any way, shape, 0:13:01.630 --> 0:13:04.850 or form. Yeah. People often say, I don't know what 0:13:04.890 --> 0:13:07.870 to say. I have no words, right? People often say that. 0:13:08.210 --> 0:13:12.260 There are no words. There's nothing that anyone could say 0:13:12.280 --> 0:13:14.500 that is going to make it better. I think what 0:13:14.580 --> 0:13:19.220 we need and don't get nearly enough is just presence, 0:13:19.559 --> 0:13:24.630 first of all. You can say, I am so sorry, right? 0:13:24.710 --> 0:13:28.830 But what we really love is tell me about him. 0:13:29.880 --> 0:13:33.120 Let me speak his name. People think that if they're 0:13:33.140 --> 0:13:35.240 going to ask me about my son, they will somehow 0:13:35.460 --> 0:13:37.820 remind me he's dead. You are not going to ever 0:13:37.880 --> 0:13:42.420 remind me. You cannot remind me. It is always there 0:13:42.440 --> 0:13:44.679 in the back or in the front of my mind. 0:13:45.220 --> 0:13:49.920 And for almost every griever I talk to is afraid 0:13:50.420 --> 0:13:54.610 that their loved one is going to be forgotten. And 0:13:54.900 --> 0:13:58.949 they get so much joy from And comfort, if not joy, 0:13:58.990 --> 0:14:02.630 eventually joy. But at first, comfort from being able to 0:14:02.710 --> 0:14:06.150 share what did you love? What's your favorite story? Who 0:14:06.210 --> 0:14:09.190 were they? Like, there's so much more than how they died, 0:14:09.790 --> 0:14:13.630 you know? And that becomes the story. And you don't 0:14:13.650 --> 0:14:15.630 need to ask how that, you know, people want to 0:14:15.670 --> 0:14:18.980 know how they died. It's kind of selfish, right? Because 0:14:19.010 --> 0:14:22.140 they want to comfort themselves and convince themselves somehow that 0:14:22.160 --> 0:14:24.960 it won't happen to them. But it doesn't matter how 0:14:25.000 --> 0:14:29.300 they died. Yeah. It doesn't matter. And then be there 0:14:29.400 --> 0:14:33.900 for them. I know that I've done it before in 0:14:33.940 --> 0:14:35.840 the past too, where you're like, let me know if 0:14:35.860 --> 0:14:39.200 there's anything I can do. And that's well-intentioned. But when 0:14:39.260 --> 0:14:42.120 someone is in active grief, they don't even know how 0:14:42.160 --> 0:14:44.040 to take their next breath. They don't know what you 0:14:44.080 --> 0:14:47.660 can do. So really offering, I'm going to come mow 0:14:47.680 --> 0:14:50.290 your lawn. I had a friend that left me a 0:14:50.370 --> 0:14:54.340 coffee on my front porch yesterday. twice a week and 0:14:54.360 --> 0:14:56.900 would just say, I'm bringing you a coffee. I'm outside. 0:14:57.040 --> 0:14:58.700 I'm parking outside. I'm about to leave it on the 0:14:58.760 --> 0:15:00.360 front steps. If you want to come out and get 0:15:00.400 --> 0:15:02.340 a hug, come out. If not, I'm just leaving it. 0:15:02.400 --> 0:15:08.500 I love you. So I offer to take young kids 0:15:09.280 --> 0:15:11.370 on a play date, take things off there. I'm in 0:15:11.450 --> 0:15:15.090 Target right now. Here's a multiple choice. Tell me if 0:15:15.130 --> 0:15:17.310 you need any of these things and I'll drop them 0:15:17.330 --> 0:15:20.350 at your house. There's so many ways you can support 0:15:21.530 --> 0:15:24.430 And don't disappear. Like the sport is really active until 0:15:24.470 --> 0:15:26.860 maybe a week or two after the celebration of life 0:15:26.910 --> 0:15:33.780 or memorial. And then the world keeps spinning and everyone's 0:15:33.800 --> 0:15:37.460 got on with their lives and you're still so deep 0:15:37.680 --> 0:15:40.600 in pain and isolation. I remember someone sent me a 0:15:41.240 --> 0:15:45.880 beautiful flowering plant two months after Sammy died. And it 0:15:45.920 --> 0:15:48.740 meant so much to me because all the other flowers 0:15:48.860 --> 0:15:51.700 and plants had died. And just the fact that that 0:15:51.740 --> 0:15:56.080 came so much later really was like, it really stood 0:15:56.200 --> 0:15:59.060 out to me. It was really meaningful. There's so many 0:15:59.120 --> 0:16:01.560 little ways to do that. I had someone just send me, 0:16:01.880 --> 0:16:04.780 Sherry Salata, who was the president of OWN and Harpo. 0:16:05.240 --> 0:16:08.100 She sent me a green heart, texted me a green heart, 0:16:08.160 --> 0:16:12.310 nothing else, every day for a year. Yeah, just those 0:16:12.370 --> 0:16:15.650 kinds of things mean so much. Yeah, thank you for 0:16:15.810 --> 0:16:22.460 sharing these examples. It's like... It's just the best advice. 0:16:22.540 --> 0:16:26.960 And I think for so many people, having that will 0:16:27.000 --> 0:16:30.640 change everything because you want to give and you want 0:16:30.680 --> 0:16:32.870 to do right. And I've been in those moments where 0:16:32.990 --> 0:16:35.210 I thought I was going to completely write some friends 0:16:35.350 --> 0:16:38.830 off because I felt like, what the hell is that? 0:16:38.990 --> 0:16:41.390 Like that is not showing up for what I need 0:16:41.430 --> 0:16:44.330 in this moment. But the nuance of it that you 0:16:44.350 --> 0:16:49.640 just really expressed with like, if you don't have any practice, one, 0:16:49.800 --> 0:16:53.020 and like deep intimacy with other people that you love 0:16:53.080 --> 0:16:55.720 and care about, if you don't have any practice in 0:16:55.760 --> 0:17:00.040 bearing witness or any practice in repair, it's like- Or 0:17:00.100 --> 0:17:03.060 facing your own stuff. Or facing your own stuff. Like 0:17:03.120 --> 0:17:06.580 you just, you don't know how. And so you're there. 0:17:06.640 --> 0:17:09.639 And I know sometimes it's just very painful for the 0:17:09.680 --> 0:17:13.980 other person too, not knowing, not feeling they have the 0:17:14.020 --> 0:17:16.790 capacity or the tools to show up. But what you described, 0:17:16.850 --> 0:17:23.280 it's like, Being direct is best. Being forward thinking is best. 0:17:23.340 --> 0:17:25.000 You come up with how you can be there for 0:17:25.020 --> 0:17:27.040 me and then I can say yes or no. And 0:17:27.100 --> 0:17:30.240 don't take it personally if they want to isolate or 0:17:30.280 --> 0:17:32.400 they don't want to see you and don't rush them 0:17:32.480 --> 0:17:35.140 to get back to normal. That's another thing I hear 0:17:35.160 --> 0:17:37.300 from grievers all the time. Everyone's like, aren't you over 0:17:37.320 --> 0:17:40.320 it yet? Why aren't you? I miss the old you. Well, 0:17:40.600 --> 0:17:42.460 I don't know who the new me is going to be. 0:17:42.920 --> 0:17:45.020 And I do write about this a lot in the book. 0:17:45.040 --> 0:17:48.350 I have a whole section on relationships. Your friendships really 0:17:48.430 --> 0:17:52.340 do change. Part of it, people who were your ride 0:17:52.380 --> 0:17:57.440 or die disappear because it's triggering for them or they 0:17:57.460 --> 0:18:00.320 can't handle it or you can't handle it. I mean, 0:18:00.359 --> 0:18:03.280 I had a dear friend who came over to my house. 0:18:03.680 --> 0:18:05.100 I think I shared this story in the book. She 0:18:05.140 --> 0:18:07.159 came over to my house about a week after and 0:18:07.200 --> 0:18:09.570 I really didn't feel able to see anyone, but because 0:18:09.609 --> 0:18:12.230 she was like a friend of 30 years, I was like, okay, 0:18:12.250 --> 0:18:14.830 this will be okay. And she walks into the house 0:18:14.890 --> 0:18:18.980 and starts hysterically crying. So now I'm comforting her. And 0:18:19.010 --> 0:18:21.389 then she says to me, I just can't stop thinking 0:18:21.450 --> 0:18:24.270 about him lying alone in the room suffocating to death. 0:18:24.609 --> 0:18:29.350 What the? And I just like ran out of the room, 0:18:29.470 --> 0:18:32.130 threw up. I think I said something like not helpful. 0:18:32.550 --> 0:18:34.149 And I ran out of the room and threw up. 0:18:34.369 --> 0:18:37.580 And then I was just like, I can't, I can't 0:18:37.619 --> 0:18:40.540 be around her anymore. Like I can't, you know, so 0:18:40.560 --> 0:18:44.340 there are people who say really, I don't know why 0:18:44.420 --> 0:18:49.869 she said that, but people who really they're so unable 0:18:49.930 --> 0:18:52.270 to be with their own fear, their own pain, their 0:18:52.369 --> 0:18:58.090 own grief. And that's okay. But don't do more proactive things. 0:18:58.170 --> 0:19:01.570 Don't go and sit with the person. Maybe do more 0:19:01.650 --> 0:19:05.430 tangible things. And then I had friends- Yeah, that's sick. Yeah. 0:19:05.470 --> 0:19:08.550 That's sick. I agree. And then I had friends who 0:19:08.570 --> 0:19:10.389 were as a friend from a carpool line or a 0:19:10.410 --> 0:19:13.489 mother I knew in school who became One of my 0:19:13.530 --> 0:19:16.530 greatest supports. And then I had dear friends, you know, 0:19:16.590 --> 0:19:19.350 like my one friend, Tina, who can hold anything. Like 0:19:19.410 --> 0:19:22.070 I already knew that before Sammy died. So she was 0:19:22.130 --> 0:19:25.369 the one whose lap I literally and metaphorically and a 0:19:25.410 --> 0:19:29.030 few other friends I literally and metaphorically climbed into because 0:19:29.130 --> 0:19:32.940 she could just sit with whatever was happening. And those 0:19:33.000 --> 0:19:40.670 friends are priceless. Oh, yeah. Yeah. God, I'm feeling sick 0:19:40.830 --> 0:19:44.190 from the first example you shared. It's just like, that 0:19:44.250 --> 0:19:48.870 is something that, my God, I hope more people take 0:19:48.890 --> 0:19:55.940 the time. to slow down and regulate yourself and check 0:19:55.980 --> 0:20:00.720 in with yourself in a moment like that before you 0:20:00.760 --> 0:20:06.270 cause harm through horrible choice of language and projection. That 0:20:06.350 --> 0:20:13.060 is just Be thoughtful. If you know someone in a tender, 0:20:13.660 --> 0:20:19.419 tender time, be thoughtful. Slow down. It is not about you. No. 0:20:20.000 --> 0:20:22.119 And it is not about you getting the A as 0:20:22.160 --> 0:20:25.360 a friend or how you're being perceived as showing up. 0:20:25.560 --> 0:20:34.380 Slow down. Witness. Listen. Yes. Also ask for guidance. Ask God, 0:20:34.480 --> 0:20:37.550 how can I help this person I love? What should 0:20:37.609 --> 0:20:40.489 I do? And just the friend or the person who 0:20:40.530 --> 0:20:43.990 can just, and not everyone can do that. I understand that. 0:20:44.060 --> 0:20:47.680 But who can literally sit without needing to fix anything. Yeah. 0:20:47.980 --> 0:20:50.679 Who can just be with you in your pain and 0:20:50.760 --> 0:20:52.440 not try to, you know, because we always want to 0:20:52.480 --> 0:20:55.590 make it better because we're uncomfortable with the pain they're in, 0:20:56.010 --> 0:20:58.570 you know. But if you can just be with them 0:20:58.609 --> 0:21:00.910 and hold their hand or put your hand on their 0:21:00.950 --> 0:21:05.310 back and just say, I'm here. I love you. I'm 0:21:05.350 --> 0:21:08.410 walking by your side. I am here with you. That 0:21:08.510 --> 0:21:15.389 is so valuable. I remember some years back, I lost 0:21:15.410 --> 0:21:26.240 someone to violence and it was on video and never 0:21:26.300 --> 0:21:31.490 watched it. But there were several people who, in the 0:21:31.550 --> 0:21:36.890 days after their passing, text me the video or sent 0:21:36.950 --> 0:21:40.930 me a link to the video. And I don't think 0:21:41.050 --> 0:21:43.970 I have spoken to a single one to this day 0:21:44.390 --> 0:21:48.840 since that moment. I understand. Like no matter what their 0:21:48.920 --> 0:21:53.100 intention was, it showed me their capacity for me and 0:21:53.160 --> 0:21:57.320 how far apart we were in our capacity for friendship, 0:21:57.359 --> 0:22:01.859 for relationship with one another. Yeah. Those are things like 0:22:01.900 --> 0:22:04.159 you'll just, When you're in a moment, when you're in 0:22:04.200 --> 0:22:09.120 a feeling like that, you don't ever forget things like 0:22:09.180 --> 0:22:14.370 that or how you feel when someone is reflecting your 0:22:14.410 --> 0:22:17.430 grief back to you. Yeah. I mean, one of the 0:22:17.790 --> 0:22:20.350 things I share in the book is this kind of 0:22:20.590 --> 0:22:25.679 model of, it's like a bullseye with three circles. And 0:22:25.720 --> 0:22:28.680 in the center are your anchors, your ride or dies 0:22:28.760 --> 0:22:31.440 who are solid, who can hold you, who are there 0:22:31.500 --> 0:22:35.389 for you. And the next are the buoys. So they're anchored, 0:22:35.430 --> 0:22:38.630 but they can be a little wobbly, distracted or not 0:22:38.730 --> 0:22:42.139 always on it or whatever, but they're pretty solid. And 0:22:42.160 --> 0:22:44.840 then there are the boats that maybe come in for 0:22:44.880 --> 0:22:49.760 your milestones or birthdays, or maybe they're out of the 0:22:49.800 --> 0:22:53.560 port altogether, right? For years at a time. But what 0:22:53.640 --> 0:22:56.949 happens with grief is that the whole thing gets mixed up. 0:22:56.990 --> 0:23:00.449 So people who were anchors... you know, become buoys or 0:23:00.510 --> 0:23:04.909 boats and people who were boats become anchors. Like everything changes. 0:23:05.050 --> 0:23:09.449 And that's part of the metamorphosis, right? Is you're not 0:23:09.510 --> 0:23:13.110 only changing internally, your external world. I mean, I had 0:23:13.150 --> 0:23:18.950 a dear friend who literally disappeared, radio silence after Sammy died, 0:23:18.970 --> 0:23:22.750 and about nine months later showed back up and was 0:23:22.830 --> 0:23:26.820 so apologetic and said that his death because he died 0:23:26.880 --> 0:23:30.379 of a fentanyl poisoning, her father who had died, I 0:23:30.540 --> 0:23:33.380 think of cirrhosis of the liver was also an alcoholic 0:23:33.420 --> 0:23:36.480 and an addict, but it triggered her about her father. 0:23:37.100 --> 0:23:40.080 And so she couldn't deal and she disappeared. And she 0:23:40.119 --> 0:23:44.040 was very apologetic and I gave her grace and forgave her, 0:23:44.180 --> 0:23:47.619 but she's not, she's a boat. Yeah. You know, like 0:23:47.700 --> 0:23:50.440 you're showing me, you're not a bad person, but you're 0:23:50.480 --> 0:23:53.860 showing me who you are in your capacity. Yeah. how 0:23:53.900 --> 0:23:56.969 you really are when the rubber meets the road. So 0:23:57.950 --> 0:24:02.210 she went from an anchor to a boat, right? There's 0:24:02.250 --> 0:24:05.030 so many things like that. And then you're kind of 0:24:05.510 --> 0:24:08.879 adrift at times, not meaning to follow that metaphor, but 0:24:08.910 --> 0:24:12.560 you feel kind of adrift. And then what I share 0:24:12.580 --> 0:24:14.820 a lot in the book is how do you build then? 0:24:15.000 --> 0:24:17.859 How do you start connecting with a village, with a 0:24:17.920 --> 0:24:21.450 tribe that really can support you because that piece of 0:24:21.510 --> 0:24:24.649 it is so important. The community piece is such a 0:24:24.690 --> 0:24:33.639 big part of healing. Wow. Wow. Wow. Yeah. And I, God, 0:24:33.700 --> 0:24:37.400 I just know how deeply helpful all of this is 0:24:37.500 --> 0:24:40.440 for so many people listening for all of us, you know, 0:24:40.500 --> 0:24:47.520 and it's just like, these are the things we need 0:24:47.540 --> 0:24:50.490 to know. Yeah. These are the things we need to 0:24:50.530 --> 0:24:53.149 know to human together, you know, and to continue to 0:24:53.230 --> 0:24:59.290 stay here and be here. Your latest book, Crying Out Loud, 0:24:59.369 --> 0:25:01.250 which I was sharing with you when you first walked 0:25:01.270 --> 0:25:03.970 in the room. I'm like, this cover is stunning. Oh, 0:25:03.970 --> 0:25:08.330 thank you. A Path Through Grief Into a Life Reimagined. 0:25:09.250 --> 0:25:11.950 Everyone on YouTube can take this cover in, but if 0:25:11.990 --> 0:25:15.100 you're listening audio-wise, it's linked below in the show notes 0:25:16.520 --> 0:25:20.100 and is available for pre-order now out in October. Um, 0:25:21.560 --> 0:25:24.919 talk to me about your journey, bringing this one to life. Yeah. 0:25:25.060 --> 0:25:31.179 You know, it was so, everything has been so guided. Um, 0:25:32.300 --> 0:25:36.010 I was not even planning. I knew eventually I, you know, 0:25:36.119 --> 0:25:38.960 this is my 11th book, everything with me, you know, heal, learn, 0:25:39.030 --> 0:25:43.490 teach just as my life path on everything. Uh, so 0:25:43.530 --> 0:25:45.710 I knew eventually I would probably want to write a book, 0:25:45.750 --> 0:25:49.060 but I was not even thinking about it. And I 0:25:49.119 --> 0:25:52.639