1 00:00:07,600 --> 00:00:11,040 Speaker 1: Hi everyone, this is Lee Clasgow and we're Talking Transports. 2 00:00:11,160 --> 00:00:14,680 Speaker 1: Welcome to Bloomberg Intelligence Talking Transports podcast. I'm your host, 3 00:00:15,040 --> 00:00:19,680 Speaker 1: Lee Klasgow, Senior Freight, transportation and logistics analysts at Bloomberg Intelligence, 4 00:00:20,120 --> 00:00:23,000 Speaker 1: Bloomberg's in house research arm of almost five hundred analysts 5 00:00:23,000 --> 00:00:26,720 Speaker 1: and strategists around the world. A quick public service announcement 6 00:00:26,720 --> 00:00:30,280 Speaker 1: before we dive in. Your support is instrumental to keep 7 00:00:30,280 --> 00:00:34,199 Speaker 1: bringing great guests and conversations to you, our listeners, and 8 00:00:34,240 --> 00:00:37,360 Speaker 1: we need your support. So please, if you enjoy this podcast, 9 00:00:37,800 --> 00:00:40,760 Speaker 1: share it, like it and leave a comment. Also, if 10 00:00:40,800 --> 00:00:44,000 Speaker 1: you've got ideas, feedback, or just want to talk transports, 11 00:00:44,159 --> 00:00:46,159 Speaker 1: I'm always happy to connect. You can find me on 12 00:00:46,240 --> 00:00:50,320 Speaker 1: the Bloomberg terminal, on LinkedIn, or on Twitter at Logistics Lead. 13 00:00:50,680 --> 00:00:53,600 Speaker 1: I'm very excited to have Jason Aristides, the CEO and 14 00:00:53,640 --> 00:00:57,720 Speaker 1: co founder of opentug. Aristides leverage is extensive background, spending 15 00:00:57,720 --> 00:01:01,040 Speaker 1: five years in software development and roll at companies like 16 00:01:01,120 --> 00:01:06,000 Speaker 1: Foss and Curtin Maritime to launch opentug in twenty nineteen. 17 00:01:06,440 --> 00:01:11,240 Speaker 1: His mission is to introduce advanced technologies that optimizes marine logistics, 18 00:01:11,440 --> 00:01:17,320 Speaker 1: boost industry competitiveness, and elevates services for shippers globally. Welcome 19 00:01:17,400 --> 00:01:20,000 Speaker 1: to talking transports, Jason. 20 00:01:20,000 --> 00:01:22,640 Speaker 2: Thank you very much. Lee really excited to be here. 21 00:01:23,080 --> 00:01:25,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, and you know we're excited to have you. We 22 00:01:25,280 --> 00:01:28,800 Speaker 1: actually haven't done much on the barge or tug industry 23 00:01:29,120 --> 00:01:32,440 Speaker 1: or inland waterways. You know, if you if you can't, 24 00:01:32,480 --> 00:01:36,039 Speaker 1: just before we dive into that, can you just talk about, 25 00:01:36,120 --> 00:01:37,399 Speaker 1: you know about opent tug. 26 00:01:37,720 --> 00:01:41,480 Speaker 2: Definitely happy to talk about open tugt opent tug has 27 00:01:41,520 --> 00:01:45,640 Speaker 2: been my mission, my passion since I entered my working career, 28 00:01:46,200 --> 00:01:49,840 Speaker 2: and I think to understand open tugt It's great to 29 00:01:49,920 --> 00:01:52,960 Speaker 2: talk about just the tug and barge industry in general 30 00:01:53,040 --> 00:01:57,320 Speaker 2: because it really drives why I'm building this business, and ultimately, 31 00:01:58,520 --> 00:02:02,080 Speaker 2: the tug and barge industry has been and leverage since 32 00:02:02,120 --> 00:02:05,760 Speaker 2: the time of building pyramids. The pyramids were actually built 33 00:02:06,040 --> 00:02:09,280 Speaker 2: using barges floating rocks down the Nile River, and it 34 00:02:09,280 --> 00:02:13,440 Speaker 2: has been core to transportation since the dawn of time. 35 00:02:14,040 --> 00:02:18,360 Speaker 2: But it's also a mode of transportation that few people 36 00:02:18,560 --> 00:02:21,639 Speaker 2: really focus on or understand how to leverage. And it's 37 00:02:21,680 --> 00:02:26,200 Speaker 2: also one of America's greatest competitive advantages. We have twenty 38 00:02:26,240 --> 00:02:30,040 Speaker 2: five thousand miles of coastline and inland waterways that can 39 00:02:30,120 --> 00:02:34,000 Speaker 2: serve over fifty percent of the US population at a 40 00:02:34,120 --> 00:02:37,880 Speaker 2: costs that's almost it's a fraction of what it costs 41 00:02:37,919 --> 00:02:41,320 Speaker 2: to move cargo over the road, and even half as 42 00:02:41,400 --> 00:02:44,440 Speaker 2: much as moving cargo by rail. So when I saw 43 00:02:44,480 --> 00:02:49,040 Speaker 2: this mode of transportation that's so highly efficient yet is 44 00:02:49,080 --> 00:02:51,720 Speaker 2: away from the public eye, I realized there was a 45 00:02:51,720 --> 00:02:57,160 Speaker 2: great opportunity to help this industry by providing best in 46 00:02:57,240 --> 00:03:01,200 Speaker 2: class technology that helps more shippers stock to use barges 47 00:03:01,520 --> 00:03:05,200 Speaker 2: and help some barge companies optimize their operations so they 48 00:03:05,200 --> 00:03:08,720 Speaker 2: can provide best in class service. And I started the 49 00:03:08,800 --> 00:03:12,840 Speaker 2: company after working in the tug and barge industry and 50 00:03:12,919 --> 00:03:16,680 Speaker 2: have evolved over time, starting with my two great friends 51 00:03:16,720 --> 00:03:20,240 Speaker 2: and co founders, and over the last year we've tripled 52 00:03:20,280 --> 00:03:24,200 Speaker 2: in size and are working with some of the greatest 53 00:03:24,720 --> 00:03:27,360 Speaker 2: shippers and carriers in the game. 54 00:03:27,720 --> 00:03:31,200 Speaker 1: And so are you are you self funded? Are do 55 00:03:31,200 --> 00:03:34,760 Speaker 1: you guys like venture capitalist private equity? Can you talk 56 00:03:34,760 --> 00:03:36,520 Speaker 1: a little bit about your investors? 57 00:03:36,800 --> 00:03:40,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, we're a venture backed company. We work with some 58 00:03:41,040 --> 00:03:46,960 Speaker 2: tremendous software investors along with great maritime investors. My former 59 00:03:47,000 --> 00:03:51,119 Speaker 2: employer at FOSS was also one of the people who 60 00:03:51,120 --> 00:03:53,680 Speaker 2: helped get us off the ground. And then we started 61 00:03:53,720 --> 00:03:57,040 Speaker 2: working with a wonderful venture fund called Entrada who's helped 62 00:03:57,120 --> 00:04:03,880 Speaker 2: launch some massive public companies along with TMV, which is 63 00:04:03,920 --> 00:04:07,560 Speaker 2: a maritime venture fund, and they have a great deal 64 00:04:07,600 --> 00:04:10,400 Speaker 2: of knowledge family who owns that owns a shipping line. 65 00:04:11,120 --> 00:04:15,480 Speaker 2: And we've been able to blend the best software investors 66 00:04:15,520 --> 00:04:19,200 Speaker 2: with the best maritime investors to create a board and 67 00:04:19,520 --> 00:04:23,080 Speaker 2: a group of investors that can help us build the 68 00:04:23,080 --> 00:04:25,240 Speaker 2: best technology for the right people. 69 00:04:25,600 --> 00:04:27,480 Speaker 1: See can you talk about like you know, so what 70 00:04:27,880 --> 00:04:31,400 Speaker 1: does opentug do. Are you a platform for shippers or 71 00:04:31,440 --> 00:04:34,520 Speaker 1: a platform for capacity providers or both? 72 00:04:34,760 --> 00:04:37,799 Speaker 2: We're a platform for the ecosystem, and the barge industry 73 00:04:37,880 --> 00:04:41,480 Speaker 2: is truly an ecosystem. On every barge transaction, you have 74 00:04:41,560 --> 00:04:44,640 Speaker 2: the charters who are actually chartering the barge. You have 75 00:04:44,720 --> 00:04:48,800 Speaker 2: the carriers, the fleets, the terminals, and one of the 76 00:04:48,839 --> 00:04:51,760 Speaker 2: big inefficiencies in the barge industry is a lack of 77 00:04:51,839 --> 00:04:55,520 Speaker 2: predictability and visibility. You know, we're subject to mother nature, 78 00:04:55,920 --> 00:05:00,159 Speaker 2: rivers are always changing, and barges are untracked. So and 79 00:05:00,200 --> 00:05:05,159 Speaker 2: TUG deploys tracking devices across all these barges, and we 80 00:05:05,240 --> 00:05:09,800 Speaker 2: provide an end to end software and GPS service that 81 00:05:09,960 --> 00:05:13,720 Speaker 2: helps our customers, whether you're a carrier shipper, optimize your 82 00:05:13,760 --> 00:05:17,000 Speaker 2: demand planning. So we use AI to capture all the 83 00:05:17,160 --> 00:05:20,120 Speaker 2: orders that people need to move, and then we help 84 00:05:20,360 --> 00:05:26,040 Speaker 2: automatically identify, based on our own proprietary model, which barges 85 00:05:26,320 --> 00:05:30,240 Speaker 2: in your fleet or across your group of assets, our 86 00:05:30,320 --> 00:05:33,960 Speaker 2: best and lowest costs to serve these loads. We then 87 00:05:34,160 --> 00:05:36,760 Speaker 2: track the barges, and we're one of the only companies 88 00:05:36,760 --> 00:05:40,679 Speaker 2: who are actually tracking real barges across the system. Ships 89 00:05:40,680 --> 00:05:43,680 Speaker 2: have AIS, barges do not, which means you can only 90 00:05:43,760 --> 00:05:49,080 Speaker 2: track the tug pulling it. Then we predict ETA's share 91 00:05:49,120 --> 00:05:51,839 Speaker 2: the ETAs with the people who need to know. We 92 00:05:51,920 --> 00:05:56,120 Speaker 2: then estimate the costs of how much it took to 93 00:05:56,200 --> 00:05:59,839 Speaker 2: actually move all of the equipment, compare it to the invoices, 94 00:06:00,200 --> 00:06:03,839 Speaker 2: help the carrier generate the invoice quickly, help the shipper 95 00:06:04,000 --> 00:06:08,440 Speaker 2: validate their invoice quickly, and then report out all those metrics. 96 00:06:08,720 --> 00:06:11,880 Speaker 2: And as we report, our model gets smarter and smarter 97 00:06:12,480 --> 00:06:16,560 Speaker 2: to better help distribute the allocation of the barges across 98 00:06:16,600 --> 00:06:17,080 Speaker 2: the demand. 99 00:06:17,320 --> 00:06:20,600 Speaker 1: And so obviously you're in startup mode. I'm assuming are 100 00:06:20,640 --> 00:06:21,960 Speaker 1: you guys profitable yet? 101 00:06:22,080 --> 00:06:24,560 Speaker 2: We're always focused on growing. I think we're in the 102 00:06:24,600 --> 00:06:27,520 Speaker 2: early stages of our growth as I mean, over the 103 00:06:27,600 --> 00:06:31,080 Speaker 2: last few last year or so, we've tripled in size 104 00:06:31,640 --> 00:06:36,520 Speaker 2: and we're investing in our product and our team and 105 00:06:36,560 --> 00:06:39,560 Speaker 2: we're going to continue to do so until we're a 106 00:06:39,560 --> 00:06:44,359 Speaker 2: public company. So right now you know the focus is growth. 107 00:06:44,440 --> 00:06:46,560 Speaker 2: It's not focused on profitability at the stage. 108 00:06:47,279 --> 00:06:49,760 Speaker 1: Okay, so big goals go on public fantastic. 109 00:06:49,839 --> 00:06:51,240 Speaker 2: I hope to have our own chick here in the 110 00:06:51,279 --> 00:06:52,359 Speaker 2: Bloomberg terminal. 111 00:06:52,600 --> 00:06:54,800 Speaker 1: That would be great, and hopefully I'll be able to 112 00:06:54,839 --> 00:06:58,120 Speaker 1: cover you guys as an analyst. So can you educate 113 00:06:58,240 --> 00:07:02,640 Speaker 1: us on the industry. So you're talking barge tugs, people 114 00:07:02,760 --> 00:07:05,960 Speaker 1: listening might not know what one is versus the other. 115 00:07:06,640 --> 00:07:08,240 Speaker 1: Can you tell us, you know what the difference of 116 00:07:08,279 --> 00:07:09,560 Speaker 1: this between a barge and a tug. 117 00:07:09,960 --> 00:07:14,600 Speaker 2: Definitely, So a tug is the horsepower actual vessel. It's 118 00:07:14,680 --> 00:07:20,640 Speaker 2: crewed and usually like four people and they're actually pushing barges. 119 00:07:21,080 --> 00:07:26,080 Speaker 2: Barges are essentially a floating container, a large floating container. 120 00:07:26,640 --> 00:07:29,880 Speaker 2: They're almost like a ship, but they're not self propelled, 121 00:07:29,960 --> 00:07:32,200 Speaker 2: so they are pushed by a bar, by a boat, 122 00:07:32,520 --> 00:07:36,720 Speaker 2: a tug boat, and they can push them in groups 123 00:07:36,760 --> 00:07:39,880 Speaker 2: of up to forty, which is ten acres of cargo 124 00:07:40,280 --> 00:07:43,920 Speaker 2: moving on the Mississippi River at a given time. That's 125 00:07:43,960 --> 00:07:47,080 Speaker 2: almost a just a fifteen barge toe is over a 126 00:07:47,280 --> 00:07:51,200 Speaker 2: thousand trucks worth of cargo being pushed by just four 127 00:07:51,280 --> 00:07:54,760 Speaker 2: people straight into the heartland of America. And you know, 128 00:07:54,880 --> 00:07:58,320 Speaker 2: you can do the same in Europe and South America. 129 00:07:58,440 --> 00:08:02,280 Speaker 2: South America you have long rivers stretching into the heartland. 130 00:08:02,600 --> 00:08:05,680 Speaker 2: And in Europe actually going to throw a curveball, the 131 00:08:05,760 --> 00:08:08,880 Speaker 2: barges are a self propelled they're almost like a ship, 132 00:08:09,080 --> 00:08:14,000 Speaker 2: an inland ship, and they operated a bit differently. Ultimately, 133 00:08:14,000 --> 00:08:16,120 Speaker 2: they're barges moving on the river. One of them is 134 00:08:16,160 --> 00:08:19,360 Speaker 2: self propelled, the other one is not. America, we have 135 00:08:19,440 --> 00:08:24,040 Speaker 2: the largest, widest, longest rivers, so we can move huge 136 00:08:24,040 --> 00:08:26,480 Speaker 2: amounts of cargo on a given boat. In Europe you 137 00:08:26,560 --> 00:08:31,200 Speaker 2: have thinner, narrower rivers that you're generally moving a self 138 00:08:31,280 --> 00:08:32,600 Speaker 2: propelled inland ship. 139 00:08:32,760 --> 00:08:36,640 Speaker 1: Gotcha. That's and it's interesting because it's a very fragmented business. 140 00:08:36,720 --> 00:08:38,680 Speaker 1: Right at least, there's there aren't a lot of publicly 141 00:08:38,720 --> 00:08:42,199 Speaker 1: traded barge companies. I think Kirby might be the only one. 142 00:08:42,400 --> 00:08:46,400 Speaker 2: Kirby, they are publicly traded, and yeah, they're really the 143 00:08:46,440 --> 00:08:50,199 Speaker 2: primary publicly traded barge line. A lot of them are 144 00:08:50,360 --> 00:08:54,000 Speaker 2: in Europe. They're owned by almost individuals, So in Europe 145 00:08:54,000 --> 00:08:58,880 Speaker 2: you'll have highly fragmented individuals, almost like a mom and 146 00:08:58,920 --> 00:09:04,040 Speaker 2: pop shop that are moving barges. And then in America 147 00:09:04,240 --> 00:09:08,160 Speaker 2: you tend to have larger corporations that will own those barges, 148 00:09:08,160 --> 00:09:12,640 Speaker 2: but you have a range of smaller operators to large. 149 00:09:12,920 --> 00:09:17,400 Speaker 2: Some of the largest private family businesses are barge businesses. 150 00:09:17,760 --> 00:09:21,239 Speaker 2: And one interesting thing is I think to call out 151 00:09:21,440 --> 00:09:25,800 Speaker 2: all of almost all of the largest companies in the 152 00:09:25,800 --> 00:09:30,240 Speaker 2: world that are not tech related are using barges. So Cargill, 153 00:09:30,440 --> 00:09:35,440 Speaker 2: for example, heavily dependent on barges. Coke industries also heavily 154 00:09:35,480 --> 00:09:40,079 Speaker 2: dependent on barges. All the oil majors like barges are 155 00:09:40,679 --> 00:09:44,080 Speaker 2: the tools of industry, and I think it's important to 156 00:09:44,080 --> 00:09:47,000 Speaker 2: take away because while not many people know them, they 157 00:09:47,000 --> 00:09:50,160 Speaker 2: are affecting every day of our lives. Right. 158 00:09:50,440 --> 00:09:52,679 Speaker 1: And then you know, you mentioned like companies like cargo, 159 00:09:53,160 --> 00:09:55,120 Speaker 1: You know some of the oil integrators, which I guess 160 00:09:55,160 --> 00:09:58,120 Speaker 1: like Exono Mobile, do they do they own their own 161 00:09:58,160 --> 00:10:01,920 Speaker 1: fleet or are they completely sourcing this. 162 00:10:03,440 --> 00:10:09,280 Speaker 2: So it's always there's a level of integration that some 163 00:10:09,440 --> 00:10:13,160 Speaker 2: companies will have. Most of the oil majors are they 164 00:10:13,760 --> 00:10:17,360 Speaker 2: charter in assets so the long term charter barges, and 165 00:10:17,679 --> 00:10:21,960 Speaker 2: they'll even they'll do spot barges. The grain companies and 166 00:10:22,040 --> 00:10:25,400 Speaker 2: a lot of those grain folks they will usually own 167 00:10:25,520 --> 00:10:28,839 Speaker 2: their own barges, but the other half of them will 168 00:10:28,960 --> 00:10:33,840 Speaker 2: charter barges in So it really depends on the individual company. 169 00:10:34,160 --> 00:10:37,920 Speaker 2: You can see all all across the board. You'll have 170 00:10:37,960 --> 00:10:41,679 Speaker 2: ones that own their own assets, charter in assets themselves, 171 00:10:42,520 --> 00:10:46,120 Speaker 2: or they just straight up charter and every so often 172 00:10:46,160 --> 00:10:50,400 Speaker 2: they'll only use their own barges, but rarely. And one 173 00:10:50,440 --> 00:10:53,520 Speaker 2: important thing to note is in the grain trade, barges 174 00:10:53,559 --> 00:10:56,760 Speaker 2: are actually traded as they go down river. So you'll 175 00:10:56,800 --> 00:11:00,440 Speaker 2: send a barge from let's say Saint Paul, Minnesota, and 176 00:11:00,640 --> 00:11:02,680 Speaker 2: it'll be on its way to New Orleans and it'll 177 00:11:02,679 --> 00:11:05,720 Speaker 2: be traded five or six different times and be owned 178 00:11:05,760 --> 00:11:09,640 Speaker 2: by a different company technically five or six times as 179 00:11:09,640 --> 00:11:12,080 Speaker 2: it goes to New Orleans to load as ship to 180 00:11:12,160 --> 00:11:15,360 Speaker 2: take grain products to Europe or wherever it may be going. 181 00:11:15,600 --> 00:11:18,400 Speaker 1: Gotcha, I guess you know, I know you guys look 182 00:11:18,400 --> 00:11:23,920 Speaker 1: at other markets outside the United States, But you know, 183 00:11:24,080 --> 00:11:26,640 Speaker 1: is there is there a marketplace or are you the 184 00:11:26,679 --> 00:11:29,520 Speaker 1: marketplace where people go to to see what rates are? 185 00:11:29,960 --> 00:11:32,360 Speaker 1: Is that is that? You know? I guess give us 186 00:11:32,520 --> 00:11:36,480 Speaker 1: more examples of the services that are on the platform 187 00:11:36,600 --> 00:11:40,040 Speaker 1: outside of visibility, which obviously is extremely important, But you know, 188 00:11:40,120 --> 00:11:41,760 Speaker 1: I'm assuming you guys do more than that. 189 00:11:42,240 --> 00:11:47,120 Speaker 2: Definitely. I mean, we have an entire pricing engine that 190 00:11:47,480 --> 00:11:52,200 Speaker 2: enables customers to instantly understand the costs to move cargo 191 00:11:52,280 --> 00:11:57,000 Speaker 2: by barage on different river segments. That's a proprietary model 192 00:11:57,000 --> 00:12:00,960 Speaker 2: that we've been that we build. It can connect to 193 00:12:01,040 --> 00:12:05,840 Speaker 2: customers existing contracts or enable them to leverage other information 194 00:12:07,240 --> 00:12:11,440 Speaker 2: and ultimately estimate the costs of their transportation in different regions. 195 00:12:11,559 --> 00:12:15,240 Speaker 2: That's definitely a large part of our model. Even the 196 00:12:15,320 --> 00:12:19,800 Speaker 2: visibility side is only one module of our platform. The 197 00:12:19,880 --> 00:12:24,400 Speaker 2: first aspect is the demand side, ultimately enabling them to 198 00:12:24,480 --> 00:12:28,240 Speaker 2: understand how many barges they'll actually need to cover the 199 00:12:28,280 --> 00:12:31,080 Speaker 2: amount of cargo that they're looking to ship. So some 200 00:12:31,120 --> 00:12:35,000 Speaker 2: customers are just looking to ship individual individual parcels and 201 00:12:35,320 --> 00:12:38,880 Speaker 2: that's fairly straightforward. But others have refineries they need to 202 00:12:38,960 --> 00:12:42,560 Speaker 2: keep online, or huge contracts that they need to fulfill, 203 00:12:43,200 --> 00:12:46,360 Speaker 2: and we enable them to instantly understand this is how 204 00:12:46,360 --> 00:12:49,880 Speaker 2: many barges you'll need to move, this of what type, 205 00:12:50,400 --> 00:12:52,400 Speaker 2: and then help them understand how much is it going 206 00:12:52,480 --> 00:12:56,839 Speaker 2: to cost. There's almost no real public rating system the 207 00:12:57,440 --> 00:13:03,040 Speaker 2: barges in the US oil side, there's really no on 208 00:13:03,080 --> 00:13:05,600 Speaker 2: the liquid barge market, there's no place you just go 209 00:13:05,760 --> 00:13:10,599 Speaker 2: to get what the current rates are publicly. And the 210 00:13:10,960 --> 00:13:13,839 Speaker 2: on the grain side, there are public tariffs that are 211 00:13:13,880 --> 00:13:17,959 Speaker 2: posted by the US Department of Agriculture, although they only 212 00:13:18,000 --> 00:13:22,480 Speaker 2: reflect the tariff rate and not necessarily the demand, which 213 00:13:22,559 --> 00:13:26,640 Speaker 2: is a percentage applied to that tariff. Europe is slightly different. 214 00:13:27,120 --> 00:13:32,480 Speaker 2: There's some sources that publish rates, but not an American. 215 00:13:32,559 --> 00:13:35,040 Speaker 1: Right in the US, this might be a dumb question. 216 00:13:35,120 --> 00:13:37,720 Speaker 1: Are there different sized barges Like you know, dry bulkers 217 00:13:37,760 --> 00:13:42,240 Speaker 1: have cape sized panamacs and and containers. There's different sized containers. 218 00:13:42,559 --> 00:13:45,640 Speaker 2: There's there's a wide array of barges. When you look 219 00:13:45,679 --> 00:13:49,400 Speaker 2: across inland and ocean barging. On the ocean, you start 220 00:13:49,440 --> 00:13:52,840 Speaker 2: to see a lot a wider range of sizes that 221 00:13:52,880 --> 00:13:56,240 Speaker 2: are generally shipped, but on the inland side it's very 222 00:13:56,280 --> 00:14:01,719 Speaker 2: it's standardized. In the grain market, you're generally shipped a 223 00:14:01,800 --> 00:14:06,880 Speaker 2: box or rake. It's usually fifteen to sixteen hundred tons 224 00:14:06,960 --> 00:14:10,920 Speaker 2: of cargo per barge. And then on the inland side 225 00:14:10,920 --> 00:14:14,560 Speaker 2: you either have ten thousand barrel barges for liquid or 226 00:14:14,760 --> 00:14:19,840 Speaker 2: thirty thousand barrels. You may see fifteen to twenty thousand barrels, 227 00:14:19,840 --> 00:14:23,160 Speaker 2: but they're less common. Most of the time you're shipping 228 00:14:23,200 --> 00:14:26,560 Speaker 2: in ten thousand thirty thousand barrel barges, and on the 229 00:14:26,600 --> 00:14:32,120 Speaker 2: dry side you're primarily fourteen thousand tons or sixteen thousand tons. 230 00:14:32,400 --> 00:14:36,000 Speaker 2: An important thing to understand is when water levels dropped. 231 00:14:36,160 --> 00:14:39,640 Speaker 2: Of course, you can fit less tons or barrels in 232 00:14:39,680 --> 00:14:42,480 Speaker 2: a barge. So when you see periods of low water, 233 00:14:42,920 --> 00:14:44,880 Speaker 2: you start to see shippers having to pay a higher 234 00:14:44,960 --> 00:14:47,600 Speaker 2: rate because now they have to charter multiple barges to 235 00:14:47,680 --> 00:14:51,040 Speaker 2: cover the amount of cargo that they would generally ship 236 00:14:51,160 --> 00:14:53,080 Speaker 2: in one or two barges. 237 00:14:53,720 --> 00:14:56,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, so we've seen low water levels in Europe and 238 00:14:57,560 --> 00:15:01,160 Speaker 1: you know parts of the Panama Canal and other places. 239 00:15:02,400 --> 00:15:09,080 Speaker 1: How has shippers and capacity providers' ability to mitigate the 240 00:15:09,280 --> 00:15:11,840 Speaker 1: risks from that. How are they able to do that 241 00:15:11,920 --> 00:15:13,760 Speaker 1: on the platform, on the opendope platform. 242 00:15:14,680 --> 00:15:18,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, So we're pulling in water level data from all 243 00:15:18,160 --> 00:15:21,200 Speaker 2: the different government sources that are reporting it, and then 244 00:15:21,240 --> 00:15:24,720 Speaker 2: we're forecasting out models on how much the water level 245 00:15:24,720 --> 00:15:28,120 Speaker 2: will be and what that does to the amount of 246 00:15:28,160 --> 00:15:31,280 Speaker 2: cargo that the customer is shipping. It comes down to 247 00:15:31,320 --> 00:15:34,280 Speaker 2: helping the customer understand how many barges they'll need to 248 00:15:34,360 --> 00:15:38,240 Speaker 2: move the cargo and what costs. So we're giving them 249 00:15:38,240 --> 00:15:40,800 Speaker 2: alerts and we're and telling them, you know, based on 250 00:15:40,840 --> 00:15:43,840 Speaker 2: these water levels and where we're forecasted to be, this 251 00:15:43,880 --> 00:15:46,800 Speaker 2: is how many barges you may need in order to 252 00:15:47,320 --> 00:15:49,520 Speaker 2: cover this, and this is what it does to your costs. 253 00:15:50,040 --> 00:15:53,720 Speaker 2: So a big aspect of our platform is pulling in 254 00:15:54,080 --> 00:15:58,840 Speaker 2: data sources from as many places as we can find, government, 255 00:15:59,480 --> 00:16:03,720 Speaker 2: other vests, data, condition data, and helping drive decisions on 256 00:16:03,840 --> 00:16:07,320 Speaker 2: how to run an effective just in time barge supply chain, 257 00:16:07,760 --> 00:16:10,200 Speaker 2: both for the carriers and for the shippers. 258 00:16:10,560 --> 00:16:13,000 Speaker 1: And then I guess in each of the markets that 259 00:16:13,040 --> 00:16:17,760 Speaker 1: you that you're in, you know, the US, Europe, wherever, where, 260 00:16:17,920 --> 00:16:20,840 Speaker 1: what are the kind of biggest inefficiencies of those markets, 261 00:16:21,480 --> 00:16:22,880 Speaker 1: and how are you solving those? 262 00:16:23,480 --> 00:16:29,080 Speaker 2: Definitely, one of the largest inefficiencies is due to lack 263 00:16:29,280 --> 00:16:33,400 Speaker 2: of information flow between the correct parties. A lot of 264 00:16:33,440 --> 00:16:36,600 Speaker 2: times you'll have back caling barges that move cargo one 265 00:16:36,640 --> 00:16:41,560 Speaker 2: way loaded and they go back empty, and there's no 266 00:16:42,240 --> 00:16:48,240 Speaker 2: orchestration or very little orchestration across the trade flows of 267 00:16:48,760 --> 00:16:52,400 Speaker 2: cargo where barges are just moving back one way empty 268 00:16:52,480 --> 00:16:55,960 Speaker 2: simply for a large reason, not enough people know about 269 00:16:56,000 --> 00:17:00,080 Speaker 2: the opportunity. And I think that is one of the 270 00:17:00,080 --> 00:17:04,520 Speaker 2: big things we're trying to help highlight is there's a 271 00:17:04,600 --> 00:17:07,520 Speaker 2: large fleet of barges that loaded one way and go 272 00:17:07,640 --> 00:17:11,720 Speaker 2: back empty the other direction, and enabling shippers understand, hey, 273 00:17:11,960 --> 00:17:14,840 Speaker 2: there's a great opportunity to move cargo at a lower 274 00:17:14,880 --> 00:17:22,000 Speaker 2: cost on effectively empty legs helping bring that to the 275 00:17:22,080 --> 00:17:26,280 Speaker 2: right people. And then on the other side, there is 276 00:17:26,320 --> 00:17:28,720 Speaker 2: a lot of like I mentioned, people involved in a 277 00:17:28,720 --> 00:17:31,920 Speaker 2: given barge trade. A lot of times a terminal will 278 00:17:31,960 --> 00:17:34,280 Speaker 2: have a barge show up that didn't even know was 279 00:17:34,320 --> 00:17:37,200 Speaker 2: supposed to come to its terminal, which means that they 280 00:17:37,200 --> 00:17:39,959 Speaker 2: now have to wait for a couple of days potentially 281 00:17:40,640 --> 00:17:44,040 Speaker 2: to be unloaded and brought back into the system the 282 00:17:44,119 --> 00:17:49,200 Speaker 2: idle time. So a couple of things we're helping orchestraate 283 00:17:49,240 --> 00:17:53,760 Speaker 2: across barges in a given fleet. We're trying to eradicate 284 00:17:53,880 --> 00:17:57,320 Speaker 2: those empty repositions, So when the barge is moving empty 285 00:17:57,400 --> 00:18:01,080 Speaker 2: one way, we're helping try to connect that togo that 286 00:18:01,280 --> 00:18:04,439 Speaker 2: needs to move in that direction. The other side, on 287 00:18:04,480 --> 00:18:07,080 Speaker 2: the visibility portion, to cut down on the amount of 288 00:18:07,400 --> 00:18:11,879 Speaker 2: days that we're sitting idle, we're helping give terminals and 289 00:18:11,920 --> 00:18:13,639 Speaker 2: the parties who need to know when a barge is 290 00:18:13,680 --> 00:18:16,520 Speaker 2: showing up real time visibility as to when that barge 291 00:18:16,520 --> 00:18:20,720 Speaker 2: will arrive. Those are the areas that we're really focusing 292 00:18:20,760 --> 00:18:24,760 Speaker 2: on cutting back on the inefficiencies. But beyond that, we 293 00:18:24,920 --> 00:18:28,199 Speaker 2: have a lot of lock and dam infrastructure throughout the 294 00:18:28,359 --> 00:18:33,520 Speaker 2: US throughout Europe, and that's aging infrastructure, which causes massive 295 00:18:33,600 --> 00:18:38,000 Speaker 2: delays when those become choke points. So a big part 296 00:18:38,000 --> 00:18:41,520 Speaker 2: of the barge industry and advocacy is going to Congress 297 00:18:41,880 --> 00:18:47,000 Speaker 2: helping them direct funds to keep the rivers open as 298 00:18:47,080 --> 00:18:50,200 Speaker 2: much as possible where you have locks that have long delays, 299 00:18:51,960 --> 00:18:55,480 Speaker 2: and helping make sure that that infrastructure is supported correctly. 300 00:18:55,840 --> 00:18:58,159 Speaker 1: It pays for that infrastructure too. I'm like, you know, 301 00:18:58,200 --> 00:19:03,040 Speaker 1: obviously in the US we have tolls and gas taxes 302 00:19:03,040 --> 00:19:06,800 Speaker 1: that supposedly pay for the highways. Rails are self funding 303 00:19:06,960 --> 00:19:09,919 Speaker 1: for the most part. Who pays for How are the 304 00:19:09,960 --> 00:19:13,560 Speaker 1: waterways and inland waterways funded? 305 00:19:15,080 --> 00:19:20,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, they're funded usually through taxes on fuel consumption through 306 00:19:21,240 --> 00:19:26,200 Speaker 2: basically burning fuel on on river segments. There's a department 307 00:19:26,600 --> 00:19:30,040 Speaker 2: US Army Corps of Engineers which gets funding, and the 308 00:19:30,160 --> 00:19:33,120 Speaker 2: Army Corps of Engineers maintains all the locks and dam 309 00:19:33,200 --> 00:19:36,080 Speaker 2: infrastructure and dredging in the rivers. 310 00:19:36,640 --> 00:19:42,399 Speaker 1: Gotcha. And from a capacity standpoint, you know, there are 311 00:19:42,400 --> 00:19:45,960 Speaker 1: certain subsegments of the freight transportation markets like trucking or 312 00:19:46,080 --> 00:19:50,040 Speaker 1: the container liner market that you know, way too much capacity. 313 00:19:50,560 --> 00:19:54,520 Speaker 1: Is there too much capacity in the arch market. 314 00:19:54,560 --> 00:19:59,440 Speaker 2: At the time? No barges actually are, I would say, 315 00:19:59,480 --> 00:20:04,119 Speaker 2: are in a pretty decent position in terms of supply 316 00:20:04,160 --> 00:20:08,439 Speaker 2: and demand. Steel prices have gone up big time, creating 317 00:20:08,480 --> 00:20:11,480 Speaker 2: it more expensive to build new barges, so there haven't 318 00:20:11,520 --> 00:20:15,640 Speaker 2: been many new barges built, but demand seems to be strong, 319 00:20:15,880 --> 00:20:18,440 Speaker 2: and I suspect that there will be a lot more 320 00:20:18,440 --> 00:20:23,080 Speaker 2: barges being built in the next few years. So rates 321 00:20:23,520 --> 00:20:26,760 Speaker 2: rates are generally have been generally high in the barge 322 00:20:26,800 --> 00:20:30,880 Speaker 2: market as to where they normally are, and I suspect 323 00:20:30,920 --> 00:20:33,840 Speaker 2: it may cool down a little bit. And I think 324 00:20:33,880 --> 00:20:37,000 Speaker 2: people are going to start investing in building more barges, 325 00:20:37,520 --> 00:20:41,399 Speaker 2: especially as more infrastructure projects are coming online. Energy is 326 00:20:41,480 --> 00:20:45,919 Speaker 2: becoming more and more important than ever before, and I 327 00:20:45,920 --> 00:20:48,399 Speaker 2: think that will continue to drive a really strong demand 328 00:20:48,480 --> 00:20:50,840 Speaker 2: for barge services. I'm optimistic. 329 00:20:51,880 --> 00:20:57,359 Speaker 1: And you know, it sounds like there's room for the 330 00:20:57,359 --> 00:21:00,600 Speaker 1: industry to be more productive, to make more money, and 331 00:21:00,960 --> 00:21:04,560 Speaker 1: I guess open took can help with that. But is 332 00:21:05,000 --> 00:21:07,480 Speaker 1: there are they do they grow more than just GDP 333 00:21:07,920 --> 00:21:13,000 Speaker 1: that the barge industry or is you know, they're obviously 334 00:21:13,040 --> 00:21:15,680 Speaker 1: not getting shared from trucking because if you're moving something 335 00:21:15,720 --> 00:21:18,359 Speaker 1: from LA to Chicago, it's not going to be a barge. 336 00:21:18,520 --> 00:21:19,280 Speaker 2: You need the water. 337 00:21:20,640 --> 00:21:23,840 Speaker 1: Is the share that they have relative to other modes 338 00:21:24,480 --> 00:21:27,080 Speaker 1: kind of set or are there more opportunities do you 339 00:21:27,119 --> 00:21:29,440 Speaker 1: think for the barge industry? And I guess where are 340 00:21:29,440 --> 00:21:30,400 Speaker 1: those opportunities? 341 00:21:31,040 --> 00:21:34,679 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think there's quite a few opportunities for the 342 00:21:34,720 --> 00:21:38,240 Speaker 2: barge industry. One of the areas that it's going to 343 00:21:38,320 --> 00:21:42,080 Speaker 2: take some time to mature is moving containerized cargo on 344 00:21:42,200 --> 00:21:47,840 Speaker 2: barges in America. So barges are traditionally almost entirely moving 345 00:21:48,000 --> 00:21:53,200 Speaker 2: bulk cargo, but there's major There's major investment going on 346 00:21:53,600 --> 00:21:57,119 Speaker 2: in New Orleans right now, which is a very important port, 347 00:21:57,359 --> 00:22:01,280 Speaker 2: a port that's so important that General Andrew Jackson march 348 00:22:01,320 --> 00:22:05,439 Speaker 2: two thousand men rough from the Northeast down to defend 349 00:22:05,440 --> 00:22:08,320 Speaker 2: it against the British and it really did set America 350 00:22:08,320 --> 00:22:11,800 Speaker 2: on a great trajectory. They're investing in a new I 351 00:22:11,800 --> 00:22:14,960 Speaker 2: think it's like eighty million dollar container terminal at the 352 00:22:15,000 --> 00:22:18,480 Speaker 2: mouth of the Mississippi River, which keep in mind goes 353 00:22:18,720 --> 00:22:23,200 Speaker 2: directly from to Chicago to Saint Paul, Minnesota, to Kansas 354 00:22:23,280 --> 00:22:27,240 Speaker 2: City to Pittsburgh. All of those places are accessible by 355 00:22:27,280 --> 00:22:31,240 Speaker 2: the river. And that investment in those new containers flowing 356 00:22:31,240 --> 00:22:34,000 Speaker 2: into the market, I think we could start to see 357 00:22:34,040 --> 00:22:38,800 Speaker 2: potentially those containers moving on barges, so there's more opportunity 358 00:22:38,880 --> 00:22:42,480 Speaker 2: in that cargo area. I would also say in South America, 359 00:22:42,520 --> 00:22:46,480 Speaker 2: you're starting to see more growth in just using barges 360 00:22:46,640 --> 00:22:50,160 Speaker 2: as there's more farms, it becomes a larger agrig culture 361 00:22:51,440 --> 00:22:56,440 Speaker 2: producing country. I think inherently barges are the cheapest way 362 00:22:56,440 --> 00:22:59,119 Speaker 2: to move that large amount of bulk cargo. So I 363 00:22:59,119 --> 00:23:02,840 Speaker 2: think South America will heat up a lot, and then 364 00:23:03,000 --> 00:23:06,439 Speaker 2: all the new projects in infrastructure that is being built 365 00:23:06,800 --> 00:23:11,560 Speaker 2: around the US that requires barges, and I think that 366 00:23:11,560 --> 00:23:15,680 Speaker 2: there's more cargo that is coming available. 367 00:23:16,160 --> 00:23:18,639 Speaker 1: Yeah, And I'm just curious from like, how long does 368 00:23:18,680 --> 00:23:20,960 Speaker 1: it take a typical barge to go from Chicago to 369 00:23:21,000 --> 00:23:24,000 Speaker 1: New Orleans and the New Orleans to Chicago, because they're 370 00:23:24,040 --> 00:23:27,040 Speaker 1: going to be competitive with the rails. I mean there's 371 00:23:27,080 --> 00:23:30,760 Speaker 1: you know, some some shippers don't really care, I guess 372 00:23:30,800 --> 00:23:33,200 Speaker 1: you know how long something takes, but others do. 373 00:23:33,359 --> 00:23:36,600 Speaker 2: So I was going to say, yeah, so in terms 374 00:23:36,600 --> 00:23:39,119 Speaker 2: of the types of cargo that are going to be 375 00:23:39,160 --> 00:23:42,320 Speaker 2: moving on barges, you generally have to be less time 376 00:23:42,359 --> 00:23:45,240 Speaker 2: and sensitive. You can see up to an eighty percent 377 00:23:45,400 --> 00:23:51,560 Speaker 2: cost reduction moving this cargo by by barge. So when 378 00:23:51,600 --> 00:23:54,800 Speaker 2: you're talking like bulk products and other products that are 379 00:23:54,880 --> 00:23:57,879 Speaker 2: dry goods that don't need to be there right away, 380 00:23:58,480 --> 00:24:05,280 Speaker 2: then becomes extremely costs competitive. And then when you're looking 381 00:24:05,359 --> 00:24:08,240 Speaker 2: you know you're going to continue to move more perishable 382 00:24:08,920 --> 00:24:11,560 Speaker 2: goods that need to show up just in time on 383 00:24:11,560 --> 00:24:13,760 Speaker 2: on truck amongst others. 384 00:24:14,119 --> 00:24:14,560 Speaker 1: Gotcha. 385 00:24:14,760 --> 00:24:17,760 Speaker 2: And then in terms of a transit time like going 386 00:24:17,880 --> 00:24:22,000 Speaker 2: up river, obviously you're you're looking at a longer transit time. 387 00:24:22,960 --> 00:24:27,280 Speaker 2: So going up going down river from New Orleans Chicago 388 00:24:27,400 --> 00:24:29,159 Speaker 2: to New Orleans, like you're roughly looking at like a 389 00:24:29,240 --> 00:24:33,000 Speaker 2: ten day transit going upriver, you could be looking at 390 00:24:33,040 --> 00:24:37,560 Speaker 2: more like fifteen fifteen days. And open tug provides all 391 00:24:37,680 --> 00:24:41,520 Speaker 2: that information like across all the different ports that uses 392 00:24:41,600 --> 00:24:44,679 Speaker 2: need to ship. Just basically how long should you be 393 00:24:44,760 --> 00:24:46,840 Speaker 2: expecting it to take? 394 00:24:47,720 --> 00:24:51,560 Speaker 1: And when you when you top to barge operators because 395 00:24:51,560 --> 00:24:53,760 Speaker 1: I'm assuming you just spend a lot of time with 396 00:24:53,840 --> 00:24:57,480 Speaker 1: the capacity providers, do they because you know there's a 397 00:24:57,480 --> 00:25:01,000 Speaker 1: big merger between two railroads and you know people are 398 00:25:01,000 --> 00:25:05,119 Speaker 1: concerned that could lead to further consolidation. Obviously, rails do 399 00:25:05,240 --> 00:25:11,560 Speaker 1: compete with barge. You know, when it's geographically feasible. Are 400 00:25:11,600 --> 00:25:14,000 Speaker 1: they talking about that or it's not really on the radar. 401 00:25:14,720 --> 00:25:18,520 Speaker 2: I think they are talking about it a bit. The 402 00:25:18,560 --> 00:25:22,919 Speaker 2: barge industry generally they do transload to rail, so they 403 00:25:23,280 --> 00:25:27,360 Speaker 2: play nice with the railroads. It hasn't been a large 404 00:25:27,800 --> 00:25:31,000 Speaker 2: topic amongst many of the barge carriers that we work with. 405 00:25:33,200 --> 00:25:35,280 Speaker 2: But I think it is something that people are paying 406 00:25:35,320 --> 00:25:38,760 Speaker 2: attention to, although it's mostly an east and like at 407 00:25:38,800 --> 00:25:43,000 Speaker 2: east to west trade, so this particular merger is not 408 00:25:44,200 --> 00:25:48,359 Speaker 2: I would say I have a major concern for the 409 00:25:48,440 --> 00:25:52,560 Speaker 2: barge carriers more north to south trades is where things 410 00:25:52,600 --> 00:25:55,399 Speaker 2: start to get more competitive. Got it? Okay? 411 00:25:55,920 --> 00:25:59,840 Speaker 1: And you know you talked earlier about obtug and A 412 00:26:00,440 --> 00:26:02,920 Speaker 1: and you know if you talk a lot about AI, 413 00:26:03,200 --> 00:26:06,960 Speaker 1: you'll get a couple of turns on your valuation. Can 414 00:26:07,000 --> 00:26:10,199 Speaker 1: you talk about, you know, how you're leveraging AI? Are 415 00:26:10,280 --> 00:26:10,920 Speaker 1: you doing it? 416 00:26:12,160 --> 00:26:12,200 Speaker 2: No? 417 00:26:12,320 --> 00:26:15,359 Speaker 1: Are you guys able to do it internally? Or or 418 00:26:15,480 --> 00:26:18,720 Speaker 1: you are you kind of leveraging other platforms that you're 419 00:26:18,760 --> 00:26:21,040 Speaker 1: putting into your platform If that makes any sense. I'm 420 00:26:21,080 --> 00:26:22,040 Speaker 1: not a tech person. 421 00:26:21,840 --> 00:26:26,600 Speaker 2: So happy happy to answer about it. So I mean, effectively, 422 00:26:28,160 --> 00:26:31,720 Speaker 2: we're using AI to aggregate all the different sources of 423 00:26:31,800 --> 00:26:36,960 Speaker 2: data because there's no basically central sources on where barges 424 00:26:37,000 --> 00:26:39,439 Speaker 2: are and what they're doing. So we have AI that 425 00:26:39,640 --> 00:26:43,160 Speaker 2: reads through all of the emails and communication that's happening 426 00:26:43,240 --> 00:26:47,720 Speaker 2: back and forth between shipper charter, the updates that the 427 00:26:47,800 --> 00:26:51,399 Speaker 2: carriers are sending and we're creating a common operating picture 428 00:26:52,040 --> 00:26:56,080 Speaker 2: without any manual entry. So effectively, you can't just track 429 00:26:56,200 --> 00:26:59,840 Speaker 2: all the barges like you can to ship. They're just there. 430 00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:04,359 Speaker 2: That data isn't available, So we aggregate data using AI 431 00:27:04,640 --> 00:27:08,960 Speaker 2: across all the different communication channels that that information is 432 00:27:09,000 --> 00:27:12,840 Speaker 2: being relayed to create a common operating picture. And then 433 00:27:12,880 --> 00:27:18,159 Speaker 2: we're training algorithms to analyze the transit times across a 434 00:27:18,200 --> 00:27:22,080 Speaker 2: specific vessel, a specific trade lane to help people understand 435 00:27:22,600 --> 00:27:25,280 Speaker 2: as whether and water levels change, what is that going 436 00:27:25,359 --> 00:27:28,600 Speaker 2: to do to you know, how long it's going to 437 00:27:28,640 --> 00:27:31,760 Speaker 2: take and when will your barge specifically show up. So 438 00:27:31,880 --> 00:27:34,680 Speaker 2: a lot of the AI is centered around aggregating data 439 00:27:35,200 --> 00:27:39,440 Speaker 2: and reading it from emails, PDFs and bringing that into 440 00:27:39,480 --> 00:27:44,440 Speaker 2: the platform to drive the visions, along with predicting transit times, 441 00:27:44,920 --> 00:27:49,280 Speaker 2: the optimal combination of tugs and barges and what the 442 00:27:49,400 --> 00:27:52,240 Speaker 2: costs is expected to be, and then. 443 00:27:52,080 --> 00:27:54,080 Speaker 1: Just chifting gears a little bit. 444 00:27:54,320 --> 00:27:54,560 Speaker 2: You know. 445 00:27:54,680 --> 00:27:59,240 Speaker 1: The more protectionist policies out of Washington has that had 446 00:27:59,400 --> 00:28:01,280 Speaker 1: a major packed on the barge industry. 447 00:28:01,800 --> 00:28:05,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, I would say it has affected more of the 448 00:28:05,160 --> 00:28:09,280 Speaker 2: grain and dry cargo markets more than anything. I think 449 00:28:09,560 --> 00:28:12,640 Speaker 2: it hasn't made it necessarily a negative impact on it. 450 00:28:12,960 --> 00:28:17,240 Speaker 2: More so, it has created a lot more uncertainty around 451 00:28:18,359 --> 00:28:22,080 Speaker 2: like who's going to be trading this year, And I 452 00:28:22,119 --> 00:28:25,040 Speaker 2: think that there's quite a bit of trade going along 453 00:28:25,160 --> 00:28:28,600 Speaker 2: with other countries when you're exporting products. We work a 454 00:28:28,640 --> 00:28:31,600 Speaker 2: lot in the oil and gas sector, which is we 455 00:28:31,640 --> 00:28:33,920 Speaker 2: have a huge demand for oil and gas, like all 456 00:28:33,920 --> 00:28:37,240 Speaker 2: of our cars other products in the US, and a 457 00:28:37,280 --> 00:28:40,760 Speaker 2: lot of that is being mixed and blended amongst US 458 00:28:40,880 --> 00:28:44,479 Speaker 2: refineries and that's where a lot of our businesses and 459 00:28:44,520 --> 00:28:47,240 Speaker 2: that hasn't necessarily been affected very much. I would say, 460 00:28:47,520 --> 00:28:47,840 Speaker 2: got you. 461 00:28:48,440 --> 00:28:53,040 Speaker 1: And you know, just staying on the protectionist trend, you know, 462 00:28:53,080 --> 00:28:57,480 Speaker 1: the Trump administration also talked about, you know, imposing fees 463 00:28:57,520 --> 00:28:59,920 Speaker 1: on like Chinese made chips that come to US, or 464 00:29:00,600 --> 00:29:03,560 Speaker 1: are the tugs and barges are they made? Are they 465 00:29:03,720 --> 00:29:07,200 Speaker 1: USA made? Or are they made in China? 466 00:29:07,480 --> 00:29:09,560 Speaker 2: So we know they're not at all. And we have 467 00:29:09,640 --> 00:29:13,280 Speaker 2: something called the Jones Act in America which means every 468 00:29:13,400 --> 00:29:20,400 Speaker 2: vessel that is moving cargo between US ports must have 469 00:29:21,120 --> 00:29:25,360 Speaker 2: an American made vessel, an American crewed asset, like people 470 00:29:25,520 --> 00:29:31,000 Speaker 2: on that vessel, So you know, taxing those Chinese ships 471 00:29:31,040 --> 00:29:35,959 Speaker 2: really only affects if you're transloading or taking that cargo 472 00:29:36,320 --> 00:29:38,719 Speaker 2: further inland, like if you see less of them, if 473 00:29:38,760 --> 00:29:42,640 Speaker 2: there's less product being imported, you know, you'll see that 474 00:29:42,720 --> 00:29:46,680 Speaker 2: maybe trickle into the bargestry a bit. But barging most 475 00:29:46,720 --> 00:29:52,120 Speaker 2: of the time we're exporting grain products, exporting oil products, 476 00:29:52,440 --> 00:29:56,640 Speaker 2: or moving that amongst the country itself. And I would 477 00:29:56,680 --> 00:30:00,760 Speaker 2: say barges do well. Like in obviously COVID hit the 478 00:30:00,760 --> 00:30:05,600 Speaker 2: barge industry pretty pretty strong, but even in the trade uncertainty, 479 00:30:05,640 --> 00:30:07,280 Speaker 2: the barge market has been strong. 480 00:30:08,000 --> 00:30:10,520 Speaker 1: And then just just to clarify, so I get like 481 00:30:10,560 --> 00:30:12,240 Speaker 1: the tugs have to be made in the US for 482 00:30:12,360 --> 00:30:14,680 Speaker 1: Jones Act, the barges also have to be made. 483 00:30:15,720 --> 00:30:16,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, they do. 484 00:30:16,600 --> 00:30:21,440 Speaker 1: That's interesting. Are there just like one or two manufacturers 485 00:30:21,440 --> 00:30:23,040 Speaker 1: of barges in the United States? 486 00:30:24,280 --> 00:30:27,400 Speaker 2: There's not a ton there. Yeah, there's definitely not that 487 00:30:27,520 --> 00:30:31,000 Speaker 2: many people building barges right now. There's some shipyards that 488 00:30:31,080 --> 00:30:34,760 Speaker 2: are building them, some independent businesses that are owned by 489 00:30:34,800 --> 00:30:40,600 Speaker 2: barge lines are actually building they're building barges, So yeah, 490 00:30:40,840 --> 00:30:43,400 Speaker 2: I think it's something that we hope to see more people. 491 00:30:43,680 --> 00:30:47,880 Speaker 2: I know there's some startups working on like rapidly manufacturing 492 00:30:47,960 --> 00:30:51,120 Speaker 2: barges and vessels in the US, which I think is exciting. 493 00:30:51,560 --> 00:30:54,479 Speaker 2: And you mentioned you're you're in the US, in Europe, 494 00:30:54,680 --> 00:30:57,080 Speaker 2: South America. Are you guys in Asia as well? I 495 00:30:57,120 --> 00:31:01,280 Speaker 2: don't know if you mentioned the Asia. That's on the 496 00:31:01,640 --> 00:31:07,480 Speaker 2: horizons for US immediately, as South America and Europe are 497 00:31:08,480 --> 00:31:12,960 Speaker 2: the immediate areas of focus. America primary is where we started. 498 00:31:13,440 --> 00:31:17,840 Speaker 1: And in terms of market size, is Europe the largest 499 00:31:17,880 --> 00:31:18,600 Speaker 1: barge market? 500 00:31:19,200 --> 00:31:23,080 Speaker 2: I would it's They're pretty They're pretty close US and 501 00:31:23,440 --> 00:31:27,400 Speaker 2: and and Europe. It's like take one hundred billion dollar 502 00:31:27,520 --> 00:31:32,840 Speaker 2: market globally roughly, and I would say about forty billion 503 00:31:32,880 --> 00:31:37,280 Speaker 2: of that is in the US. But that's the size 504 00:31:37,320 --> 00:31:41,960 Speaker 2: of revenue, you know, paid to barge companies, so they 505 00:31:42,000 --> 00:31:44,840 Speaker 2: play a large role across this cargo. 506 00:31:45,360 --> 00:31:47,440 Speaker 1: And so do you get to ride on any tugboats 507 00:31:47,520 --> 00:31:48,080 Speaker 1: or barges. 508 00:31:48,440 --> 00:31:51,000 Speaker 2: I do ride on barges and tugs. I actually started 509 00:31:51,040 --> 00:31:54,920 Speaker 2: out working on on some boats. I worked in the office, 510 00:31:54,960 --> 00:31:57,520 Speaker 2: but I would go on boats. I'm actually taking a 511 00:31:57,560 --> 00:32:00,760 Speaker 2: two day ride down from Baton Rouge to New Orleans, 512 00:32:01,560 --> 00:32:04,200 Speaker 2: UH in the coming in the coming months. One of 513 00:32:04,240 --> 00:32:06,520 Speaker 2: our customers was nice enough to offer to take me 514 00:32:06,920 --> 00:32:11,280 Speaker 2: down a riverboat ride and it's not like a great 515 00:32:11,400 --> 00:32:13,600 Speaker 2: it's not like a cruise, but we'll learn a lot. 516 00:32:14,480 --> 00:32:18,440 Speaker 2: So there's no casino, no buffet, casino, buffet on board 517 00:32:18,520 --> 00:32:22,080 Speaker 2: unfortunately one prior on those assets. 518 00:32:22,560 --> 00:32:25,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, oh, that that sounds like it'll be be a 519 00:32:25,600 --> 00:32:26,120 Speaker 1: fun trip. 520 00:32:26,240 --> 00:32:28,040 Speaker 2: They have great chefs a board. 521 00:32:28,120 --> 00:32:32,239 Speaker 1: Okay, and so you know, let's let's change gears a 522 00:32:32,240 --> 00:32:35,040 Speaker 1: little bit and and kind of talk about you know, 523 00:32:35,320 --> 00:32:39,280 Speaker 1: you as as a co founder and an entrepreneur. You know, 524 00:32:39,360 --> 00:32:41,760 Speaker 1: if you can talk about kind of the biggest lessons 525 00:32:41,840 --> 00:32:46,760 Speaker 1: learned as an entrepreneur, so for those budding entrepreneurs they 526 00:32:46,800 --> 00:32:48,240 Speaker 1: might be able to avoid. 527 00:32:48,680 --> 00:32:51,440 Speaker 2: I think the biggest lesson that I've learned as an 528 00:32:51,600 --> 00:32:57,760 Speaker 2: entrepreneur is that, like an idea is is really is 529 00:32:57,800 --> 00:33:03,040 Speaker 2: not the most important aspect of your business. And everybody 530 00:33:03,120 --> 00:33:06,720 Speaker 2: has good ideas, but it always comes down to execution. 531 00:33:07,520 --> 00:33:10,520 Speaker 2: And I think spending about like ten percent of your 532 00:33:10,560 --> 00:33:13,720 Speaker 2: time on ideas and strategy and ninety percent of the 533 00:33:13,760 --> 00:33:17,480 Speaker 2: time on actually executing, because you'll ultimately never know if 534 00:33:17,520 --> 00:33:20,400 Speaker 2: your idea is good or if your strategy is good 535 00:33:20,520 --> 00:33:24,440 Speaker 2: until you've actually executed for some time. And it can 536 00:33:24,480 --> 00:33:28,680 Speaker 2: be easy to sit and get analysis paralysis, focusing on 537 00:33:29,080 --> 00:33:32,080 Speaker 2: how do I what is the best strategy to enter 538 00:33:32,640 --> 00:33:36,160 Speaker 2: this market? What is the best product to build, you know, 539 00:33:36,320 --> 00:33:40,240 Speaker 2: for these given users? And I think you really can't 540 00:33:40,280 --> 00:33:43,640 Speaker 2: know until you just get started and be prepared to 541 00:33:43,880 --> 00:33:49,080 Speaker 2: hear no million times. But ultimately, the thing that's going 542 00:33:49,120 --> 00:33:52,360 Speaker 2: to make you be successful is how hard you're executing 543 00:33:52,560 --> 00:33:56,160 Speaker 2: and your ability to pivot and be resilient from what 544 00:33:56,200 --> 00:33:59,960 Speaker 2: you learn. That's been in my experience like the key 545 00:34:00,240 --> 00:34:03,520 Speaker 2: to success, because I would say the idea I first 546 00:34:03,560 --> 00:34:07,120 Speaker 2: started this business with was a bad idea, but because 547 00:34:07,160 --> 00:34:13,640 Speaker 2: we executed against it so relentlessly and ultimately learned through 548 00:34:13,719 --> 00:34:16,839 Speaker 2: just existing in the marketplace, we were able to come 549 00:34:16,880 --> 00:34:19,960 Speaker 2: to a good idea. And I think that anybody can 550 00:34:20,320 --> 00:34:23,720 Speaker 2: be a great entrepreneur if they do what it takes 551 00:34:23,840 --> 00:34:27,680 Speaker 2: to just put in the effort, the long hours and 552 00:34:28,000 --> 00:34:29,799 Speaker 2: just going to where your customers are. 553 00:34:30,480 --> 00:34:32,920 Speaker 1: And you know, you mentioned you started this business with 554 00:34:32,960 --> 00:34:37,440 Speaker 1: two of your very good friends. Has starting a business 555 00:34:37,440 --> 00:34:39,800 Speaker 1: with friends tested the friendship? 556 00:34:40,200 --> 00:34:44,080 Speaker 2: Honestly, not too much. We've we've we've had our time 557 00:34:44,200 --> 00:34:47,680 Speaker 2: is where we argue, but it's only constructive and I 558 00:34:47,719 --> 00:34:52,719 Speaker 2: think you just can't be afraid of conflict with these 559 00:34:52,719 --> 00:34:57,320 Speaker 2: people that you started with, Like if you are if 560 00:34:57,560 --> 00:34:59,759 Speaker 2: you would go into it expecting that you as will 561 00:34:59,760 --> 00:35:02,760 Speaker 2: have conflicts and you just leave it at that, then 562 00:35:03,040 --> 00:35:05,799 Speaker 2: it doesn't harm the friendship at all, as long as 563 00:35:05,800 --> 00:35:09,440 Speaker 2: you just understand what you're getting into and you. 564 00:35:09,400 --> 00:35:11,919 Speaker 1: Know, I guess, are there anything else facing the freight 565 00:35:11,960 --> 00:35:15,759 Speaker 1: transportation markets that are on your radar? And maybe you 566 00:35:15,800 --> 00:35:18,839 Speaker 1: know where there are other markets that you feel that 567 00:35:19,239 --> 00:35:22,160 Speaker 1: the open tug idea could be applicable to. 568 00:35:22,719 --> 00:35:24,759 Speaker 2: I mean, like I mentioned, our goal is to be 569 00:35:24,800 --> 00:35:27,319 Speaker 2: the global barge platform, and my goal is to help 570 00:35:27,400 --> 00:35:30,640 Speaker 2: the barge industry get bigger and bigger. So we're staying 571 00:35:30,719 --> 00:35:35,800 Speaker 2: true to barges, although we will support like all maritime assets, 572 00:35:36,000 --> 00:35:39,799 Speaker 2: so ships as well. But our goal is to help 573 00:35:39,920 --> 00:35:43,200 Speaker 2: grow the barge industry by lowering the barrier it takes 574 00:35:43,239 --> 00:35:46,760 Speaker 2: for shippers and others to start leveraging the mode, because 575 00:35:47,440 --> 00:35:49,239 Speaker 2: there's a lot of people who just don't even know 576 00:35:49,280 --> 00:35:51,359 Speaker 2: what a barge is or what it can do for them. 577 00:35:51,640 --> 00:35:54,200 Speaker 2: And like, we want to bring barges to the masses, 578 00:35:55,160 --> 00:35:59,000 Speaker 2: and until we've done that, we won't go to other 579 00:35:59,080 --> 00:36:02,040 Speaker 2: modes besides ships. Potentially, And then I. 580 00:36:01,960 --> 00:36:04,480 Speaker 1: Guess, you know, how did you know you mentioned that, 581 00:36:04,520 --> 00:36:07,120 Speaker 1: you know, you started your career in the maritime kind 582 00:36:07,160 --> 00:36:12,400 Speaker 1: of industry. How did you gravitate there before starting OPENTUK. 583 00:36:13,640 --> 00:36:18,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, so I was building technology. I was actually I 584 00:36:18,480 --> 00:36:21,000 Speaker 2: first started a platform called the market Map, and I 585 00:36:21,040 --> 00:36:26,440 Speaker 2: wanted to build technology for financial services to help forecasts 586 00:36:26,480 --> 00:36:30,360 Speaker 2: and bring data together to to help trade stocks, a 587 00:36:30,360 --> 00:36:33,239 Speaker 2: lot like a Bloomberg terminal. But I learned that there 588 00:36:33,280 --> 00:36:35,480 Speaker 2: was people who had done it better and already done 589 00:36:35,520 --> 00:36:40,080 Speaker 2: it before. So I kept searching and I was actually 590 00:36:40,280 --> 00:36:44,480 Speaker 2: my college girlfriend. Their family was in the maritime industry, 591 00:36:44,520 --> 00:36:48,640 Speaker 2: and I got to start working at a really well 592 00:36:48,800 --> 00:36:53,239 Speaker 2: done maritime company and I just through my exposure there, 593 00:36:53,400 --> 00:36:56,240 Speaker 2: I fell in love with the barge industry as a whole. 594 00:36:56,560 --> 00:36:57,840 Speaker 1: And then I guess, you know, I always like to 595 00:36:57,880 --> 00:37:01,160 Speaker 1: ask our guests these kind of quotquestions about books that 596 00:37:01,200 --> 00:37:04,359 Speaker 1: they've read, and you know, whether it's about you know, 597 00:37:04,520 --> 00:37:09,520 Speaker 1: business entrepreneurship or the industry, you know, the maritime industry 598 00:37:09,800 --> 00:37:11,920 Speaker 1: or barge industry. Is there a book that's kind of 599 00:37:11,960 --> 00:37:13,760 Speaker 1: close to your heart that you've read in the past 600 00:37:13,840 --> 00:37:16,359 Speaker 1: that you know you would recommend to people that are 601 00:37:17,080 --> 00:37:20,640 Speaker 1: either looking to become entrepreneurs or better entrepreneurs, or people 602 00:37:20,719 --> 00:37:22,960 Speaker 1: are looking to learn more about the barge industry. 603 00:37:23,400 --> 00:37:28,680 Speaker 2: Yeah. So I think there's not many books about the 604 00:37:28,719 --> 00:37:33,120 Speaker 2: barge industry that themselves that I have particularly read. But 605 00:37:33,320 --> 00:37:36,759 Speaker 2: as far as books for becoming an entrepreneur and just 606 00:37:36,840 --> 00:37:40,520 Speaker 2: building a business, amp It Up by Frank Slutman, I 607 00:37:40,520 --> 00:37:43,560 Speaker 2: think was one of the most impactful books I've ever read. 608 00:37:44,680 --> 00:37:49,120 Speaker 2: And you know that coming from Frame Slupman. He's created 609 00:37:49,239 --> 00:37:53,640 Speaker 2: hundreds of billions of dollars in market across the public 610 00:37:53,719 --> 00:37:57,359 Speaker 2: companies and he'd iPod all of them, and he's tough 611 00:37:57,400 --> 00:37:59,960 Speaker 2: as nails and it gets a lot of the heart 612 00:38:00,640 --> 00:38:03,719 Speaker 2: you need to hear early on. I think The Art 613 00:38:03,760 --> 00:38:06,120 Speaker 2: of the Deal is a pretty good book that I 614 00:38:06,160 --> 00:38:08,600 Speaker 2: think should be for read at some point to learn 615 00:38:08,640 --> 00:38:12,280 Speaker 2: about making deals. And anybody who wants to learn about 616 00:38:12,280 --> 00:38:15,799 Speaker 2: logistics should read The Box, which is the origins of 617 00:38:15,840 --> 00:38:21,960 Speaker 2: the container, because I think it really opens your eyes 618 00:38:22,040 --> 00:38:25,160 Speaker 2: to how an industry can be the same way. For 619 00:38:25,440 --> 00:38:28,320 Speaker 2: thousands of years, they were moving cargo only in bulk, 620 00:38:29,040 --> 00:38:33,840 Speaker 2: and then somebody invents the box and that really revolutionizes logistics. 621 00:38:33,880 --> 00:38:37,279 Speaker 2: But it actually took over twenty years, and it took 622 00:38:37,360 --> 00:38:43,200 Speaker 2: the Vietnam War to actually start bringing this great idea 623 00:38:43,280 --> 00:38:47,279 Speaker 2: into fruition. So I think it does show how you know, 624 00:38:47,320 --> 00:38:50,040 Speaker 2: there's just because it's been done the same way for 625 00:38:51,480 --> 00:38:54,400 Speaker 2: the dawn of time, and just because you have an 626 00:38:54,440 --> 00:38:56,920 Speaker 2: idea and it doesn't catch on right away doesn't mean 627 00:38:56,960 --> 00:39:00,560 Speaker 2: it's a bad idea. And all of those, I would say, 628 00:39:00,600 --> 00:39:02,560 Speaker 2: are good boots that have been impactful to me. 629 00:39:04,400 --> 00:39:07,680 Speaker 1: All right, great, well, we're coming up at the end 630 00:39:07,680 --> 00:39:09,680 Speaker 1: of our time. Jason. I really want to thank you 631 00:39:09,719 --> 00:39:10,880 Speaker 1: for your insights today. 632 00:39:11,200 --> 00:39:13,520 Speaker 2: Thank you. I've had a great time and I hope 633 00:39:13,560 --> 00:39:15,239 Speaker 2: to see you in Prinson one day and. 634 00:39:15,600 --> 00:39:17,719 Speaker 1: Yeah, that'd be great, and you know, good luck with 635 00:39:18,160 --> 00:39:21,759 Speaker 1: you know, building opentalk further. I also want to thank 636 00:39:21,800 --> 00:39:24,040 Speaker 1: you for tuning in. If you liked the episode, please 637 00:39:24,040 --> 00:39:26,879 Speaker 1: subscribe and leave a review. We've lined up a number 638 00:39:26,920 --> 00:39:29,239 Speaker 1: of great guests for the podcast, so please check back 639 00:39:29,280 --> 00:39:33,640 Speaker 1: to here conversations with C suite executives, shippers, regulators, and 640 00:39:33,680 --> 00:39:37,120 Speaker 1: decision makers within the freight markets. Also, if you want 641 00:39:37,120 --> 00:39:40,120 Speaker 1: to learn more about the freight transportation markets, check out 642 00:39:40,120 --> 00:39:43,279 Speaker 1: our work on the Bloomberg Terminal at Bigo and on 643 00:39:43,320 --> 00:39:47,160 Speaker 1: social media. This is Lee Glasgal signing off. Thanks for 644 00:39:47,200 --> 00:39:49,760 Speaker 1: talking transports with me. Talk to you next week.