1 00:00:08,720 --> 00:00:23,200 Speaker 1: Bodybacks with Joseph Scott Morgan. When it comes to vehicles, 2 00:00:23,560 --> 00:00:26,720 Speaker 1: we think about them as a means to transport us 3 00:00:26,760 --> 00:00:30,960 Speaker 1: to work, to go by our daily life, to convey 4 00:00:31,080 --> 00:00:34,640 Speaker 1: us from one spot to another during good times and 5 00:00:34,760 --> 00:00:38,840 Speaker 1: bad times. Do you ever really think about a vehicle 6 00:00:39,320 --> 00:00:44,040 Speaker 1: being used as a weapon. I'm not just talking about 7 00:00:44,080 --> 00:00:47,200 Speaker 1: a vehicle being used to run somebody over. I'm talking 8 00:00:47,240 --> 00:00:52,680 Speaker 1: about a vehicle being used to heat somebody up to 9 00:00:52,720 --> 00:00:57,560 Speaker 1: the point where they actually die. Today we're going to 10 00:00:57,640 --> 00:01:00,960 Speaker 1: talk about the death of Cooper Harris. I'm Joseph Scott 11 00:01:01,000 --> 00:01:09,160 Speaker 1: Morgan and this his body bags back with me again 12 00:01:09,200 --> 00:01:12,560 Speaker 1: today is my good friend Jackie Howard, Executive producer of 13 00:01:12,600 --> 00:01:16,880 Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Jackie, Well, can you tell 14 00:01:16,959 --> 00:01:20,640 Speaker 1: us about Cooper Harris Joe on June eighteenth, twenty fourteen. 15 00:01:20,800 --> 00:01:25,200 Speaker 1: First impressions are that Justin Ross Harris is a loving 16 00:01:25,319 --> 00:01:29,000 Speaker 1: parent who made a terrible mistake. His son, Cooper, just 17 00:01:29,240 --> 00:01:32,320 Speaker 1: twenty two months old, was to be dropped off out 18 00:01:32,319 --> 00:01:35,000 Speaker 1: of daycare. His dad took him to breakfast at Chick 19 00:01:35,080 --> 00:01:38,400 Speaker 1: fil A before intending to drop Cooper off at the daycare, 20 00:01:38,440 --> 00:01:41,760 Speaker 1: which was right down the road from where Justin Ross 21 00:01:41,800 --> 00:01:46,000 Speaker 1: Harris worked, but in that distance of a mile between 22 00:01:46,000 --> 00:01:48,160 Speaker 1: the Chick fil A and where he should have turned 23 00:01:48,200 --> 00:01:52,280 Speaker 1: to go to the daycare, Justin Ross Harris says he 24 00:01:52,440 --> 00:01:56,360 Speaker 1: forgot that he had his son. He parked his vehicle 25 00:01:57,280 --> 00:02:00,680 Speaker 1: and went into work for the day. During the hours 26 00:02:00,720 --> 00:02:04,960 Speaker 1: of June eighteenth, Cooper, twenty two month old Cooper died 27 00:02:05,520 --> 00:02:09,560 Speaker 1: of heat stroke. Now Harris told police that he realized 28 00:02:09,600 --> 00:02:13,959 Speaker 1: his mistake when he was driving away from work after 29 00:02:14,000 --> 00:02:16,960 Speaker 1: getting back in the car at the end of a long, 30 00:02:17,120 --> 00:02:20,560 Speaker 1: hot day to go home. That is when he noticed 31 00:02:20,560 --> 00:02:23,440 Speaker 1: his son was dead in the car. He immediately pulled 32 00:02:23,480 --> 00:02:27,120 Speaker 1: over into a parking lot called nine one one. What 33 00:02:27,480 --> 00:02:31,399 Speaker 1: was found during the investigation is that Justin Ross Harris 34 00:02:31,800 --> 00:02:34,519 Speaker 1: was a serial womanizer. He was in the midst of 35 00:02:34,639 --> 00:02:38,680 Speaker 1: several extramarital affairs. Harris had been involved with multiple women 36 00:02:38,760 --> 00:02:44,560 Speaker 1: and had been sending explicit sexual messages, sexting, some with 37 00:02:44,680 --> 00:02:49,120 Speaker 1: nude photos with at least six different females. In fact, 38 00:02:49,520 --> 00:02:53,760 Speaker 1: some of them were underage girls. It was also found 39 00:02:53,760 --> 00:02:57,639 Speaker 1: that he was viewing an Internet page called child Free 40 00:02:57,680 --> 00:03:01,600 Speaker 1: and reading articles on how to survive in prison, looking 41 00:03:01,680 --> 00:03:03,919 Speaker 1: up how hot a car needed to be to kill 42 00:03:04,040 --> 00:03:07,760 Speaker 1: a child looking up what it would be like to 43 00:03:07,840 --> 00:03:12,839 Speaker 1: live an unencumbered life, Joe. So what we find out 44 00:03:12,880 --> 00:03:17,200 Speaker 1: when the autopsy is completed is that Cooper Harris died 45 00:03:17,840 --> 00:03:21,160 Speaker 1: of heat stroke after being left in this car where 46 00:03:21,200 --> 00:03:26,680 Speaker 1: temperatures topped easily one hundred degrees. So let's start there, Joe. 47 00:03:27,240 --> 00:03:31,000 Speaker 1: What is heat stroke? Heat stroke itself in the medical 48 00:03:31,000 --> 00:03:36,160 Speaker 1: communities referred to as hyperthermia, hyper meaning high temperature. And 49 00:03:36,240 --> 00:03:38,640 Speaker 1: then of course we can have hypothermia, you know, if 50 00:03:38,640 --> 00:03:41,840 Speaker 1: people are exposed to cold, cold weather for a protracted 51 00:03:41,880 --> 00:03:44,440 Speaker 1: period of time. But in this particular case, we're talking 52 00:03:44,480 --> 00:03:49,680 Speaker 1: about this young boy, this toddler, this baby essentially that 53 00:03:50,000 --> 00:03:54,320 Speaker 1: was strapped into this car seat and left in this 54 00:03:54,400 --> 00:03:58,200 Speaker 1: hot car for a protracted period of time and I 55 00:03:58,240 --> 00:04:01,480 Speaker 1: think one estimate that at one point in time was 56 00:04:01,560 --> 00:04:04,440 Speaker 1: up to seven and a half hours perhaps that he 57 00:04:04,560 --> 00:04:09,880 Speaker 1: was there. And what happens with hyperthermia, it's a diagnosis, 58 00:04:09,880 --> 00:04:12,480 Speaker 1: it's not you know, when we think about things that 59 00:04:12,520 --> 00:04:15,760 Speaker 1: we do in forensic pathology and in medical legal death investigation, 60 00:04:16,120 --> 00:04:18,240 Speaker 1: we think about trauma, don't we We think about things 61 00:04:18,279 --> 00:04:23,479 Speaker 1: like bludgeoning and strangulation and gunshots and knife wounds and 62 00:04:23,480 --> 00:04:26,200 Speaker 1: all those sorts of things, and relatively speaking, those are 63 00:04:26,480 --> 00:04:30,200 Speaker 1: kind of easy diagnoses to make. But with hyperthermia, this 64 00:04:30,400 --> 00:04:33,280 Speaker 1: is this is a diagnosis of what's referred to a 65 00:04:33,320 --> 00:04:36,800 Speaker 1: diagnosis by exclusion, So you have to have a lot 66 00:04:36,800 --> 00:04:40,400 Speaker 1: of circumstantial evidence that's coming in to theme the forensic 67 00:04:40,400 --> 00:04:43,279 Speaker 1: pathologists to make this determination. As a matter of fact, 68 00:04:44,120 --> 00:04:50,880 Speaker 1: when the m made the diagnosis of hyperthermia, he didn't 69 00:04:50,920 --> 00:04:53,840 Speaker 1: list a manner of death initially. And you know, as 70 00:04:53,880 --> 00:04:57,000 Speaker 1: fans on bodybacks have learned, you know, there's five manners 71 00:04:57,000 --> 00:05:01,200 Speaker 1: of death, you know, the homicide and suicide and undetermined 72 00:05:01,240 --> 00:05:05,960 Speaker 1: and natural and accidental. In this case, initially the manner 73 00:05:06,000 --> 00:05:10,279 Speaker 1: of death was left undetermined. And what that says is 74 00:05:10,320 --> 00:05:13,800 Speaker 1: that the doctor knew, based upon just the information that 75 00:05:13,920 --> 00:05:16,880 Speaker 1: was coming in, that this was going to be a 76 00:05:16,920 --> 00:05:19,640 Speaker 1: heat related death. He just didn't know how to qualify. 77 00:05:19,720 --> 00:05:22,760 Speaker 1: And it took more information coming in from the police, 78 00:05:22,800 --> 00:05:26,520 Speaker 1: that circumstantial information to kind of put all of the 79 00:05:26,560 --> 00:05:29,640 Speaker 1: pieces together. At the end of the day, the Emmy 80 00:05:29,960 --> 00:05:34,560 Speaker 1: listed this as a homicide. Now that's what left all 81 00:05:34,600 --> 00:05:38,200 Speaker 1: of us, I think, kind of scratching our heads and saying, well, 82 00:05:38,200 --> 00:05:41,320 Speaker 1: if this is a homicide. If this is a homicide, 83 00:05:42,160 --> 00:05:46,080 Speaker 1: then you have this child that is a lockdown inside 84 00:05:46,080 --> 00:05:50,920 Speaker 1: of this vehicle, Jackie. That means that you have intent, 85 00:05:51,520 --> 00:05:55,680 Speaker 1: that his dad had specific intent to literally use the 86 00:05:55,760 --> 00:06:00,600 Speaker 1: interior of this vehicle, the heated interior of this vehicle, 87 00:06:01,120 --> 00:06:03,599 Speaker 1: as a means to bring about his son's death. And 88 00:06:03,680 --> 00:06:06,280 Speaker 1: that requires thought, doesn't it It requires thought that you 89 00:06:06,320 --> 00:06:09,479 Speaker 1: would have to think something like this out. It does. 90 00:06:09,600 --> 00:06:12,719 Speaker 1: And we know that temperatures that day reached ninety two 91 00:06:12,720 --> 00:06:17,200 Speaker 1: degrees and experts are saying that inside the car the 92 00:06:17,200 --> 00:06:22,280 Speaker 1: temperature was close to one hundred and twenty five degrees. 93 00:06:22,760 --> 00:06:27,440 Speaker 1: So let's talk specifically about what heatstroke is going to 94 00:06:27,520 --> 00:06:30,239 Speaker 1: do to a body. I want everybody in the sound 95 00:06:30,240 --> 00:06:32,560 Speaker 1: of my voice to just imagine this for a second. 96 00:06:32,760 --> 00:06:35,880 Speaker 1: Think about the summertime, and you go out to your car. 97 00:06:36,080 --> 00:06:38,039 Speaker 1: Maybe it's in a parking lot after you've been shopping, 98 00:06:38,279 --> 00:06:41,279 Speaker 1: maybe it's outside of your home. Car's locked up. You 99 00:06:41,320 --> 00:06:43,080 Speaker 1: go to get out there in the middle of the day, 100 00:06:43,080 --> 00:06:44,520 Speaker 1: you unlocked the car, and you get in. You ever 101 00:06:44,520 --> 00:06:47,560 Speaker 1: grab the steering wheel, and steering wheel will almost sizzle 102 00:06:47,640 --> 00:06:49,800 Speaker 1: the palms of your hands. That's how hot it is. 103 00:06:50,080 --> 00:06:53,520 Speaker 1: Until you can equalize the temperature by moving down the 104 00:06:53,600 --> 00:06:57,400 Speaker 1: road with your windows down, perhaps turning on the air let. 105 00:06:57,400 --> 00:07:01,280 Speaker 1: The air kind of catch up and you know, dispel 106 00:07:01,400 --> 00:07:05,719 Speaker 1: that heat that's in that environment. Cooper didn't have that opportunity. 107 00:07:06,240 --> 00:07:09,560 Speaker 1: He was inside of this environment. In one estimate that 108 00:07:09,600 --> 00:07:12,880 Speaker 1: I heard, they top into the temperature at about one 109 00:07:12,920 --> 00:07:16,960 Speaker 1: hundred and thirty degrees inside of this vehicle. And let's 110 00:07:16,960 --> 00:07:19,920 Speaker 1: just talk about some of the contributing factors here. First off, yeah, 111 00:07:20,280 --> 00:07:24,280 Speaker 1: he's inside of a vehicle. But the vehicle is parked 112 00:07:24,480 --> 00:07:27,400 Speaker 1: on an asphalt surface, and what do we know about heat? 113 00:07:27,400 --> 00:07:31,040 Speaker 1: Will heat rises? Did you know that the interior of 114 00:07:31,120 --> 00:07:35,760 Speaker 1: that vehicle is actually going to be impacted by rising heat? 115 00:07:35,760 --> 00:07:37,920 Speaker 1: That vehicle, even though it is insulated, it is going 116 00:07:37,960 --> 00:07:39,640 Speaker 1: to take on that heat and it's going to be 117 00:07:39,680 --> 00:07:44,560 Speaker 1: transferred to the interior. Not to mention, the vehicle is 118 00:07:44,560 --> 00:07:48,640 Speaker 1: completely surrounded in glass. What does glass do. Well, it's 119 00:07:49,120 --> 00:07:54,600 Speaker 1: like a partly sunny day and that glass is acting 120 00:07:55,040 --> 00:07:58,840 Speaker 1: to magnify the heat within the vehicle, so the heat 121 00:07:58,960 --> 00:08:01,760 Speaker 1: is gradually creeping up. We know that the vehicles parked 122 00:08:02,320 --> 00:08:04,760 Speaker 1: roughly nine ish nine thirty ish I think in the 123 00:08:04,800 --> 00:08:08,480 Speaker 1: morning and then it sat there. It sat there. As 124 00:08:08,520 --> 00:08:11,239 Speaker 1: the sun began to rise, it got hotter and hotter 125 00:08:11,280 --> 00:08:13,720 Speaker 1: inside of that car, and all the while, little Cooper 126 00:08:14,400 --> 00:08:17,320 Speaker 1: is back there. Now he's positioning in this car seat 127 00:08:17,360 --> 00:08:21,800 Speaker 1: so that he's facing rearward. He's not facing forward. And 128 00:08:21,840 --> 00:08:25,200 Speaker 1: it's not a big car, it's actually a kind of 129 00:08:25,200 --> 00:08:30,520 Speaker 1: a compact suv. And in this position, he would have 130 00:08:30,560 --> 00:08:34,400 Speaker 1: been looking rearward and he would have had nobody there 131 00:08:34,440 --> 00:08:37,960 Speaker 1: to soothe him. Can you imagine his anxiety level increasing, 132 00:08:38,200 --> 00:08:41,280 Speaker 1: Probably his pulse rates increasing. I don't know about his 133 00:08:41,280 --> 00:08:44,880 Speaker 1: blood pressure, but certainly his pulse rate. Anxiety is kicking in. 134 00:08:45,600 --> 00:08:47,559 Speaker 1: And we all know what it's like to be strapped 135 00:08:47,559 --> 00:08:50,000 Speaker 1: into a seat of a vehicle as an adult. But 136 00:08:50,080 --> 00:08:52,960 Speaker 1: can you imagine, with almost like a four point in 137 00:08:53,000 --> 00:08:57,160 Speaker 1: restraint in this car seat, this young child is pinned 138 00:08:57,160 --> 00:08:59,240 Speaker 1: down in this thing, and no matter how much he 139 00:08:59,320 --> 00:09:02,079 Speaker 1: struggles and anxiety is increasing, he doesn't have his mommy 140 00:09:02,080 --> 00:09:04,600 Speaker 1: and daddy to soothe him. And he begins to sweat. 141 00:09:04,800 --> 00:09:06,720 Speaker 1: He begins to sweat, and he's starting to feel the 142 00:09:06,720 --> 00:09:12,120 Speaker 1: effects of the interior environment heating up. Mouth is becoming dry, 143 00:09:12,800 --> 00:09:16,320 Speaker 1: the body is trying to cool itself down. But here's 144 00:09:16,320 --> 00:09:20,679 Speaker 1: the problem. When we get hot, we can replenish, can't we. 145 00:09:20,679 --> 00:09:23,960 Speaker 1: We can take on a classical water, maybe something to 146 00:09:24,000 --> 00:09:28,080 Speaker 1: replace electrolytes. Cooper didn't have that opportunity. He's sitting there 147 00:09:28,120 --> 00:09:31,760 Speaker 1: and he is sweating, clothing is becoming super saturated. But 148 00:09:31,840 --> 00:09:35,280 Speaker 1: even that saturation of his clothing is beginning to evaporate 149 00:09:35,360 --> 00:09:39,200 Speaker 1: in this heat. And with every second that ticks off 150 00:09:39,240 --> 00:09:43,760 Speaker 1: the clock, With every second that ticks off the clock, 151 00:09:44,000 --> 00:09:48,760 Speaker 1: for Cooper, he's losing hope. As time is going by, 152 00:09:49,160 --> 00:09:52,160 Speaker 1: mouth is getting dry, and then soon at one point 153 00:09:52,200 --> 00:09:55,720 Speaker 1: in time, he'll start to have kind of some intestinal discomfort. 154 00:09:56,640 --> 00:10:00,520 Speaker 1: Many times with people that are suffering from hyperthermia, they 155 00:10:00,559 --> 00:10:04,280 Speaker 1: begin to have stomach cramps, and not just stomach cramps, 156 00:10:04,320 --> 00:10:08,160 Speaker 1: but also when they begin to heat up, your muscles 157 00:10:08,559 --> 00:10:10,720 Speaker 1: begin to cramp up as well. We see this with 158 00:10:10,800 --> 00:10:14,000 Speaker 1: athletes out on fields, and you know, folks will say, well, 159 00:10:14,000 --> 00:10:16,240 Speaker 1: he's got a cramp in his leg. Well, they have 160 00:10:16,280 --> 00:10:18,600 Speaker 1: somebody to run out and attend to them, not Cooper. 161 00:10:18,720 --> 00:10:21,640 Speaker 1: Can you imagine being pinned in the seat, superheated in 162 00:10:21,679 --> 00:10:25,440 Speaker 1: that environment, and suddenly the major muscles in your legs, 163 00:10:25,480 --> 00:10:28,200 Speaker 1: maybe they begin to cramp up. You've got knots in 164 00:10:28,240 --> 00:10:31,240 Speaker 1: your stomach where you feel as though that your stomach 165 00:10:31,280 --> 00:10:36,120 Speaker 1: is really upset. Sometimes you'll have severe nausea, vomiting. There's 166 00:10:37,160 --> 00:10:42,679 Speaker 1: there's also opportunity for to develop acute acute diarrhea in 167 00:10:42,720 --> 00:10:45,720 Speaker 1: these cases as well. It is a total and complete 168 00:10:47,559 --> 00:10:51,360 Speaker 1: a sensation of discomfort all the while. It's very torturous 169 00:10:51,440 --> 00:10:54,439 Speaker 1: as time goes by. And then finally, what is going 170 00:10:54,480 --> 00:10:57,280 Speaker 1: to be happening as a result of this imbalance of say, 171 00:10:57,280 --> 00:11:02,160 Speaker 1: the electrolytes in the body, the dehydration, and you will 172 00:11:02,200 --> 00:11:04,960 Speaker 1: have individuals that will begin to seize. They will have 173 00:11:05,000 --> 00:11:09,080 Speaker 1: seizures many times. And finally what's going to happen is 174 00:11:09,120 --> 00:11:14,200 Speaker 1: that you'll you'll have a fatal cardiac event because the 175 00:11:14,240 --> 00:11:16,480 Speaker 1: systems are so out of balance at this point in time, 176 00:11:17,200 --> 00:11:19,600 Speaker 1: the child's heart just stops beating. And that's what happened 177 00:11:19,640 --> 00:11:25,440 Speaker 1: to Cooper. Interestingly enough, we believe, we believe based upon 178 00:11:25,960 --> 00:11:29,400 Speaker 1: what I saw and what I heard in testimony, the 179 00:11:29,480 --> 00:11:33,560 Speaker 1: Cooper was probably alive. He was probably alive for maybe 180 00:11:33,679 --> 00:11:36,400 Speaker 1: four four and a half hours. I want to talk 181 00:11:36,400 --> 00:11:38,320 Speaker 1: a little bit more in depth, Joe about some of 182 00:11:38,320 --> 00:11:40,840 Speaker 1: the things that you just brought up. Whenever it is 183 00:11:40,880 --> 00:11:45,240 Speaker 1: suspected that someone is experiencing heat stroke, the recommendations are 184 00:11:45,320 --> 00:11:47,760 Speaker 1: to get the person into the shade or indoors, to 185 00:11:47,880 --> 00:11:51,320 Speaker 1: remove access clothing, and to cool the person down by 186 00:11:51,360 --> 00:11:56,320 Speaker 1: whatever means necessary quickly, and to get emergency services. Some 187 00:11:56,400 --> 00:11:58,720 Speaker 1: of the symptoms of heat stroke, and you named some 188 00:11:58,760 --> 00:12:01,760 Speaker 1: of them is the high court body temperature, the nausea 189 00:12:01,840 --> 00:12:06,000 Speaker 1: and vomiting. You have a flushed skin as your skin 190 00:12:06,080 --> 00:12:09,679 Speaker 1: turns red because of the body temperature, rapid breathing, a 191 00:12:09,840 --> 00:12:18,559 Speaker 1: racing heartbeat, a headache, and it causes confusion, agitation, slurred speech, irritability, 192 00:12:18,640 --> 00:12:21,240 Speaker 1: and the seizures that you talked about. It can even 193 00:12:21,280 --> 00:12:24,320 Speaker 1: put a person into a coma. And all of these 194 00:12:24,360 --> 00:12:28,600 Speaker 1: things combined together damages the heart, the kidneys, the muscles, 195 00:12:29,200 --> 00:12:33,360 Speaker 1: the brain. So you said, at that point, the heart 196 00:12:33,480 --> 00:12:38,040 Speaker 1: just stops. But what is it exactly that we're seeing here, Well, Jackie, 197 00:12:38,040 --> 00:12:40,920 Speaker 1: it's going to be a depletion of several things, and 198 00:12:41,040 --> 00:12:44,960 Speaker 1: it's some of the things that for our cardiac proceeds 199 00:12:45,080 --> 00:12:48,920 Speaker 1: to operate effectively. Remember I talked about the absence of 200 00:12:48,960 --> 00:12:53,600 Speaker 1: electrolytes and when you're bleeding electrolytes out. You know, you're using, 201 00:12:53,800 --> 00:12:58,960 Speaker 1: you're losing things like sodium, potassium, and magnesium, and these 202 00:12:59,080 --> 00:13:01,840 Speaker 1: keep our systems and balance. And as these are exiting 203 00:13:01,880 --> 00:13:04,480 Speaker 1: the body and you're not replenishing them, that's why you 204 00:13:04,520 --> 00:13:08,760 Speaker 1: see these events like the nausea that we talked about, 205 00:13:09,080 --> 00:13:14,319 Speaker 1: certainly the disorientation, the dizziness, and eventually it leads to 206 00:13:14,360 --> 00:13:17,760 Speaker 1: a severe cardiac problem. And if you're not if you 207 00:13:17,840 --> 00:13:21,760 Speaker 1: haven't gotten assistance quick enough, it can lead to brain damage. 208 00:13:21,800 --> 00:13:26,320 Speaker 1: And of course that's you're an unrecoverable flat span there physiologically, 209 00:13:26,360 --> 00:13:28,200 Speaker 1: there's no way to kind of recover from it. And 210 00:13:28,640 --> 00:13:34,839 Speaker 1: what makes this particularly insidious, Jackie, is the fact that 211 00:13:34,880 --> 00:13:39,560 Speaker 1: this is something that was researched, the fact that his 212 00:13:39,679 --> 00:13:41,959 Speaker 1: father would have an awareness of this at least that's 213 00:13:42,000 --> 00:13:45,720 Speaker 1: what the jury believed, that this was something that was 214 00:13:45,880 --> 00:13:49,840 Speaker 1: intended to have happened, and that he was found guilty of. 215 00:13:50,679 --> 00:13:54,280 Speaker 1: And with all of that knowledge, all of that data 216 00:13:54,600 --> 00:13:59,960 Speaker 1: relative to that, he subjected this child to that. And again, 217 00:14:00,000 --> 00:14:02,560 Speaker 1: and this is what kind of sends a shiver up 218 00:14:02,559 --> 00:14:05,360 Speaker 1: your spine as to how cold and callous this event. 219 00:14:05,600 --> 00:14:07,880 Speaker 1: You know, and we had you know, I remember during 220 00:14:07,880 --> 00:14:10,559 Speaker 1: the course of this trial, we had a visceral reaction 221 00:14:10,720 --> 00:14:14,199 Speaker 1: from people when they began to understand what this child 222 00:14:14,280 --> 00:14:20,080 Speaker 1: had endured. There's one image that really really captured me 223 00:14:21,800 --> 00:14:25,000 Speaker 1: that that came about from an evidentiary standpoint, and that's 224 00:14:25,040 --> 00:14:28,840 Speaker 1: when Cooper was actually removed from the car seat by 225 00:14:28,840 --> 00:14:31,480 Speaker 1: his father and he was laying there on the ground. 226 00:14:31,560 --> 00:14:34,480 Speaker 1: Actually he was laying in a parking lot and his 227 00:14:34,600 --> 00:14:37,560 Speaker 1: dad had pulled over into the back of a shopping 228 00:14:37,600 --> 00:14:42,000 Speaker 1: center and had removed Cooper from the car was screaming. 229 00:14:42,200 --> 00:14:44,960 Speaker 1: A couple of witnesses stated that Harris had attempted to 230 00:14:45,000 --> 00:14:49,080 Speaker 1: do a couple of compressions on Cooper and walked away. 231 00:14:49,120 --> 00:14:52,720 Speaker 1: Another gentleman took over. But you know, Jackie, when's crime 232 00:14:52,760 --> 00:14:55,520 Speaker 1: scene people got there and they were observing Cooper's body, 233 00:14:55,560 --> 00:14:58,200 Speaker 1: This image will always stick with me. He was laying 234 00:14:58,240 --> 00:15:00,680 Speaker 1: on his back and his leg x were benet and 235 00:15:00,720 --> 00:15:04,520 Speaker 1: knees and contracted upward. Do you know why, because he 236 00:15:04,560 --> 00:15:06,640 Speaker 1: had sat in the seats along that Riger Morris had 237 00:15:06,640 --> 00:15:09,480 Speaker 1: set in that he had been there for at least 238 00:15:09,760 --> 00:15:13,520 Speaker 1: four hours post mortem, probably because Riger appeared to be 239 00:15:13,560 --> 00:15:17,600 Speaker 1: fixed in his legs, And that gives you that image 240 00:15:17,640 --> 00:15:20,880 Speaker 1: is so ghastly that it really stuck with me over 241 00:15:20,920 --> 00:15:24,120 Speaker 1: all these years, you know, since this case happened, and 242 00:15:24,880 --> 00:15:28,640 Speaker 1: the fact that this event was so horrific, to the 243 00:15:28,680 --> 00:15:31,320 Speaker 1: point where you have a father that's searching the internet 244 00:15:31,520 --> 00:15:37,080 Speaker 1: looking for the impact of what the causative agent that 245 00:15:37,160 --> 00:15:39,880 Speaker 1: could bring about death in this environment, and it would 246 00:15:39,920 --> 00:15:43,760 Speaker 1: seem on one level, if in fact he had planned 247 00:15:43,800 --> 00:15:48,720 Speaker 1: this out like the court says he did, that it 248 00:15:49,120 --> 00:15:51,000 Speaker 1: was to him it seemed as though it was going 249 00:15:51,040 --> 00:15:53,040 Speaker 1: to be a perfect crime Jackie, that you're not going 250 00:15:53,080 --> 00:15:56,080 Speaker 1: to leave behind much evidence other than the fact of, 251 00:15:56,600 --> 00:16:00,400 Speaker 1: oh I forgot, And that's what it essentially that it 252 00:16:00,440 --> 00:16:24,000 Speaker 1: comes down to. You know, it's very it's very difficult 253 00:16:24,000 --> 00:16:27,320 Speaker 1: to get past the knowledge of what this child went through. 254 00:16:28,360 --> 00:16:30,720 Speaker 1: But you know, the people that were at the scene, 255 00:16:30,760 --> 00:16:32,680 Speaker 1: the people that worked this case, they had to drive 256 00:16:32,720 --> 00:16:35,440 Speaker 1: on through, including the medical examiner personnel that handled this 257 00:16:35,560 --> 00:16:38,120 Speaker 1: case at the end of the day, and and of 258 00:16:38,120 --> 00:16:41,239 Speaker 1: course they took Cooper's remains back and did an autopsy 259 00:16:41,280 --> 00:16:43,960 Speaker 1: on him, and they wanted to find answers and many 260 00:16:44,000 --> 00:16:46,720 Speaker 1: times there's just not a lot you can see with 261 00:16:47,200 --> 00:16:51,640 Speaker 1: a death related to hyperthermia. Well, speaking of that, Joe, 262 00:16:52,120 --> 00:16:54,920 Speaker 1: what's actually going to show up in an autopsy. Well, 263 00:16:54,920 --> 00:16:58,120 Speaker 1: you know, with autopsies, Jackie, the thing that we will do, 264 00:16:58,160 --> 00:16:59,760 Speaker 1: and I'm going to talk in general kind of about 265 00:16:59,760 --> 00:17:02,280 Speaker 1: auto tops it's real quickly at autopsies, what we're gonna 266 00:17:02,280 --> 00:17:06,200 Speaker 1: do is it's not just about opening a body and 267 00:17:06,280 --> 00:17:10,720 Speaker 1: examining the internal organs and drawing talkic college. We look 268 00:17:11,119 --> 00:17:13,600 Speaker 1: at the totality of everything, you know, we look at 269 00:17:13,640 --> 00:17:17,719 Speaker 1: the external condition of the body, including the clothing. And 270 00:17:19,240 --> 00:17:23,720 Speaker 1: when Cooper's body came into into the medical examiner's office 271 00:17:23,720 --> 00:17:26,080 Speaker 1: and they were preparing to do their examination, they noted 272 00:17:26,119 --> 00:17:32,120 Speaker 1: that Cooper was clothed, it was clean, with the exception 273 00:17:32,160 --> 00:17:34,959 Speaker 1: that he was still wearing a diaper and the diaper 274 00:17:35,040 --> 00:17:38,920 Speaker 1: was saturated with urine, which again, you know, going to 275 00:17:39,000 --> 00:17:42,440 Speaker 1: the hyperthermia, you know your your body is still going 276 00:17:42,520 --> 00:17:45,760 Speaker 1: to be avoiding during this period of time. You still 277 00:17:45,800 --> 00:17:50,480 Speaker 1: have a need to avoid and he would have urinated 278 00:17:50,520 --> 00:17:52,600 Speaker 1: on himself and had to sit there in those last 279 00:17:52,640 --> 00:17:59,200 Speaker 1: few hours of his life. And his body was weighed 280 00:17:59,480 --> 00:18:02,520 Speaker 1: examined thoroughly and there was no external trauma. Okay, it 281 00:18:02,560 --> 00:18:05,879 Speaker 1: looked like he had been well cared for as a 282 00:18:05,880 --> 00:18:09,760 Speaker 1: matter of fact, when the investigators with the Medical Examiner's 283 00:18:09,800 --> 00:18:12,960 Speaker 1: office began to kind of dig into the medical history 284 00:18:13,000 --> 00:18:17,840 Speaker 1: of Cooper, essentially there was none. He was basically allergic 285 00:18:17,920 --> 00:18:20,600 Speaker 1: to one drug, which I think may have been an antibiotic, 286 00:18:20,640 --> 00:18:23,480 Speaker 1: but nothing else. He had no previous medical history, So 287 00:18:23,560 --> 00:18:26,560 Speaker 1: you had no reason for this child just to have 288 00:18:27,200 --> 00:18:30,240 Speaker 1: spontaneously died. And that's one of the questions that we 289 00:18:30,880 --> 00:18:34,240 Speaker 1: ask in the medical legal community. Is there any other 290 00:18:34,320 --> 00:18:37,359 Speaker 1: possibility here, particularly when you have a case that, as 291 00:18:37,400 --> 00:18:40,880 Speaker 1: I had mentioned that hyperthermia is kind of a diagnosis 292 00:18:40,880 --> 00:18:43,440 Speaker 1: of exclusion. You know, when you've gone through everything else, 293 00:18:43,560 --> 00:18:47,399 Speaker 1: you have to consider everything else before you can arrive 294 00:18:47,440 --> 00:18:50,040 Speaker 1: at that at that moment in time to make that 295 00:18:50,119 --> 00:18:54,480 Speaker 1: final diagnosis, which course is bolstered by circumstantial evidence. For us, 296 00:18:55,520 --> 00:18:58,040 Speaker 1: he had no medical history, had nothing to indicate that 297 00:18:58,119 --> 00:19:02,280 Speaker 1: he had some kind of unknown blood disorder or heart disease, 298 00:19:02,480 --> 00:19:05,720 Speaker 1: or some type of neurological impairment or anything like that, 299 00:19:06,320 --> 00:19:09,200 Speaker 1: congenital problems that had been passed along. There was no 300 00:19:09,240 --> 00:19:12,720 Speaker 1: evidence of that. So at the end of the day 301 00:19:12,800 --> 00:19:16,359 Speaker 1: when the medical exam was doing the autopsy, really the 302 00:19:16,440 --> 00:19:21,240 Speaker 1: only significant finding that they found with Cooper's body is 303 00:19:21,280 --> 00:19:25,000 Speaker 1: that he had swelling or adema as they put it, 304 00:19:25,480 --> 00:19:30,000 Speaker 1: in the lungs, and he had a diema also swelling 305 00:19:30,320 --> 00:19:34,560 Speaker 1: in his brain. And that was really the biggest manifestation 306 00:19:34,640 --> 00:19:37,360 Speaker 1: they could see. And that's that's kind of something that's 307 00:19:37,400 --> 00:19:41,400 Speaker 1: peripherally associated with hypothermia because the body is struggling so much, 308 00:19:41,680 --> 00:19:44,439 Speaker 1: you know, the process oxygen to try to keep your 309 00:19:44,480 --> 00:19:49,160 Speaker 1: own heart pumping. The brain is starved essentially of all 310 00:19:49,160 --> 00:19:52,920 Speaker 1: of its necessary nutrients to go on, and the brain 311 00:19:53,000 --> 00:19:55,680 Speaker 1: begins to swell and eventually it shuts down. And so 312 00:19:56,040 --> 00:19:59,400 Speaker 1: that's from what we referred to as a gross examination, 313 00:19:59,440 --> 00:20:02,639 Speaker 1: which means with the unaided eye, that's all they found 314 00:20:02,680 --> 00:20:04,119 Speaker 1: at that point in time. And then they did a 315 00:20:04,200 --> 00:20:09,440 Speaker 1: microscopic examination, which is called histological examination, and then that's 316 00:20:09,440 --> 00:20:12,200 Speaker 1: all I found as well. His toxicology screen was clear 317 00:20:12,240 --> 00:20:14,119 Speaker 1: as well, Jackie. There was no evidence that there was 318 00:20:14,160 --> 00:20:16,200 Speaker 1: any kind of drugs on board or anything like that. 319 00:20:18,000 --> 00:20:21,080 Speaker 1: What was evidence though, was the fact that you know, 320 00:20:21,119 --> 00:20:22,800 Speaker 1: when we go back and we think, you know, his 321 00:20:22,920 --> 00:20:26,440 Speaker 1: dad had stopped off that one last meal at Chick 322 00:20:26,520 --> 00:20:30,879 Speaker 1: fil A there in an area called Vinings, Georgia, to 323 00:20:30,960 --> 00:20:35,239 Speaker 1: get him a biscuit, and there's actual image of the 324 00:20:35,240 --> 00:20:39,080 Speaker 1: two of them inside of the restaurant on CCTV and 325 00:20:39,359 --> 00:20:42,199 Speaker 1: there was evidence of food and a stumbach. Joe, you 326 00:20:42,200 --> 00:20:46,160 Speaker 1: were talking about the edema. Is the edema a cause 327 00:20:47,160 --> 00:20:51,760 Speaker 1: of Cooper's death? Or is it an effect of Cooper's death? 328 00:20:52,240 --> 00:20:56,080 Speaker 1: Understand my question? Oh? Yeah, perfectly. And that's an excellent question, Jackie. 329 00:20:56,080 --> 00:20:59,480 Speaker 1: You've been studying. It's not it is a result of 330 00:20:59,760 --> 00:21:03,000 Speaker 1: high perthermia. It's it's something that can at least, like 331 00:21:03,040 --> 00:21:06,439 Speaker 1: I said, be peripherally evidenced. As a result, you have 332 00:21:06,520 --> 00:21:09,520 Speaker 1: to ask the question why would this have occurred? Because 333 00:21:09,600 --> 00:21:12,119 Speaker 1: normally a child of this age is not going to 334 00:21:12,200 --> 00:21:15,320 Speaker 1: walk around with an idemitist brain and ademitis lungs. That's 335 00:21:15,359 --> 00:21:20,320 Speaker 1: just not in the card. So the causitive factor bringing 336 00:21:20,359 --> 00:21:25,440 Speaker 1: this about is the evidence of hyperthermia. And it also 337 00:21:25,520 --> 00:21:27,919 Speaker 1: goes to a bigger picture. It gives you an indication 338 00:21:28,840 --> 00:21:33,440 Speaker 1: of this kind of final struggle that Cooper's little body 339 00:21:33,560 --> 00:21:36,080 Speaker 1: was in, you know, as he's he's headed toward death, 340 00:21:36,280 --> 00:21:39,360 Speaker 1: towards this fatal event, if you will, as he's strapped 341 00:21:39,359 --> 00:21:41,879 Speaker 1: into this car seat. And one more thing that was 342 00:21:41,960 --> 00:21:46,560 Speaker 1: noted at the autopsy by the medical examiner is that 343 00:21:47,480 --> 00:21:52,760 Speaker 1: on Cooper's back, essentially the left upper back and just 344 00:21:52,840 --> 00:21:55,880 Speaker 1: over the left buttock, he had what's referred to as 345 00:21:55,920 --> 00:21:59,840 Speaker 1: a parched abrasion, which gives you an idea that this 346 00:22:00,280 --> 00:22:03,479 Speaker 1: is a dried abrasion and may be consistent, uh say, 347 00:22:03,560 --> 00:22:07,080 Speaker 1: for instance, with something that had recently happened, or maybe 348 00:22:07,200 --> 00:22:10,080 Speaker 1: given the fact that he's suffering from this state of dehydration, 349 00:22:10,160 --> 00:22:13,000 Speaker 1: it may have happened during the struggle as he's trying 350 00:22:13,040 --> 00:22:16,280 Speaker 1: to break free of these of being restrained in this 351 00:22:16,520 --> 00:22:18,720 Speaker 1: in this car seat. He wouldn't have known anybody he's 352 00:22:18,720 --> 00:22:21,879 Speaker 1: at child he's thinking, he's just struggling to get loose. Uh. 353 00:22:22,040 --> 00:22:26,760 Speaker 1: There's also another area of a parched abrasion that's found 354 00:22:27,119 --> 00:22:30,240 Speaker 1: over his left tricep area. Folks at home will just 355 00:22:30,280 --> 00:22:34,480 Speaker 1: put your put your hand over your left triceps. It's 356 00:22:34,520 --> 00:22:38,200 Speaker 1: the back area of your arm. So again, these back 357 00:22:38,280 --> 00:22:41,080 Speaker 1: points of contact, if you will, where he's kind of 358 00:22:41,080 --> 00:22:44,720 Speaker 1: struggling with his lower back, over his buttock and that 359 00:22:45,320 --> 00:22:49,080 Speaker 1: left tricep area he's struggling. He may have abraided that 360 00:22:49,160 --> 00:22:51,359 Speaker 1: area in the struggle as he's in the final throes 361 00:22:51,400 --> 00:22:54,040 Speaker 1: of death. So let's talk about what evidence would have 362 00:22:54,080 --> 00:22:57,840 Speaker 1: been found in the car itself. In the car seat. 363 00:22:57,880 --> 00:23:00,080 Speaker 1: You said that he had foided, but he would have 364 00:23:00,200 --> 00:23:03,960 Speaker 1: also defecated to correct when the body dies everything kind 365 00:23:04,000 --> 00:23:07,600 Speaker 1: of let's go, well, that's not necessarily always the case. 366 00:23:08,000 --> 00:23:12,399 Speaker 1: You know, there's a there's a bit of um. I 367 00:23:12,400 --> 00:23:15,480 Speaker 1: don't know. It's kind of an urban legend that goes 368 00:23:15,520 --> 00:23:19,760 Speaker 1: about that says that people actually do defecate themselves at 369 00:23:19,760 --> 00:23:22,280 Speaker 1: the time of death. And yes, it does, in fact happen, 370 00:23:23,080 --> 00:23:29,199 Speaker 1: and but it's not necessarily always the case. The medical 371 00:23:29,200 --> 00:23:32,399 Speaker 1: examiner had reported that they saw evidence of urine in 372 00:23:32,520 --> 00:23:36,080 Speaker 1: his diaper, but it's not like he had had some 373 00:23:36,160 --> 00:23:38,680 Speaker 1: kind of explosive bowel movement or something like that at 374 00:23:38,720 --> 00:23:44,119 Speaker 1: that moment in time. Now, quite interestingly, one of the 375 00:23:44,200 --> 00:23:49,120 Speaker 1: officers that had arrived at the scene made this this 376 00:23:49,200 --> 00:23:53,159 Speaker 1: kind of comment that that really struck people at the time. 377 00:23:53,480 --> 00:23:56,520 Speaker 1: He said that he smelled the smell of death within 378 00:23:56,560 --> 00:23:59,280 Speaker 1: the car at that point in time. And I never 379 00:23:59,320 --> 00:24:03,960 Speaker 1: really understood what was meant by that, because Cooper really 380 00:24:04,000 --> 00:24:09,040 Speaker 1: didn't have time to to decompose at that point, you know, 381 00:24:09,280 --> 00:24:12,040 Speaker 1: to the point where you would actually it would be 382 00:24:12,119 --> 00:24:15,800 Speaker 1: manifest to the point in a classic sense of decomposition. 383 00:24:16,600 --> 00:24:19,280 Speaker 1: I think that it was more maybe and I hate 384 00:24:19,280 --> 00:24:22,400 Speaker 1: to put words into this person's mouth, but maybe just 385 00:24:22,440 --> 00:24:25,840 Speaker 1: the sense of what had gone on in that vehicle. 386 00:24:25,920 --> 00:24:28,280 Speaker 1: Maybe there was the heavy smell of urine that was 387 00:24:28,320 --> 00:24:34,880 Speaker 1: hanging in the air, the sweat that had issued forth 388 00:24:34,920 --> 00:24:37,480 Speaker 1: from his body during these moments of struggle, and this 389 00:24:37,560 --> 00:24:40,760 Speaker 1: sort of thing. But you know, we would look for 390 00:24:40,800 --> 00:24:43,720 Speaker 1: things like vomitous, we would look for things like feces, 391 00:24:44,160 --> 00:24:46,000 Speaker 1: all of those sorts of things. But you know, at 392 00:24:46,000 --> 00:24:49,880 Speaker 1: the end of the day, Cooper's body was actually very 393 00:24:49,880 --> 00:24:52,560 Speaker 1: well cared for. It was clean, it didn't you know, 394 00:24:52,600 --> 00:24:55,280 Speaker 1: he didn't look like he was unkempt, if you will. 395 00:24:56,680 --> 00:24:59,400 Speaker 1: And as far as what was voided from his body, 396 00:24:59,440 --> 00:25:01,840 Speaker 1: according to the medical examiner, it was simply urine. So 397 00:25:01,880 --> 00:25:03,840 Speaker 1: what do we have seen on the rest of his body. 398 00:25:03,840 --> 00:25:07,399 Speaker 1: I would have to imagine that he struggled to get 399 00:25:07,440 --> 00:25:11,000 Speaker 1: out of the car seat that he was strapped into. 400 00:25:11,080 --> 00:25:14,320 Speaker 1: So would we have seen scratches, Yeah, you can, and 401 00:25:14,359 --> 00:25:20,080 Speaker 1: particularly when individuals are in fact restrained to the point 402 00:25:20,119 --> 00:25:24,639 Speaker 1: where they're fighting. Remember, there was a he would have 403 00:25:24,720 --> 00:25:28,200 Speaker 1: been in a panic. Remember I used the term kind 404 00:25:28,240 --> 00:25:31,840 Speaker 1: of anxiety ridden at that at that moment in time 405 00:25:31,960 --> 00:25:37,640 Speaker 1: where you're you're fighting against this restraint that is holding 406 00:25:37,640 --> 00:25:44,200 Speaker 1: you back. One interesting um note here, though, is that 407 00:25:44,800 --> 00:25:51,200 Speaker 1: when they reflected or began to examine Cooper's neck on 408 00:25:51,280 --> 00:25:54,760 Speaker 1: the left lateral neck. If folks at home will put 409 00:25:54,840 --> 00:25:58,000 Speaker 1: their hand on the left side of their neck, there 410 00:25:58,040 --> 00:26:03,000 Speaker 1: were some evidences of particular hemorrhage, and there were some 411 00:26:03,400 --> 00:26:09,119 Speaker 1: evidences of particular hemorrhages there. That gives you an indication 412 00:26:09,240 --> 00:26:12,840 Speaker 1: that maybe, in fact, he had struggled to the point 413 00:26:12,880 --> 00:26:15,439 Speaker 1: where some of the blood vessels may have given away. 414 00:26:15,520 --> 00:26:18,399 Speaker 1: You know, many times we see that with people that 415 00:26:18,600 --> 00:26:21,280 Speaker 1: are are being choked out. If you will and this 416 00:26:21,320 --> 00:26:27,720 Speaker 1: can happen, you can develop PATIKII in any number of instances. Actually, 417 00:26:27,800 --> 00:26:32,119 Speaker 1: women that are in labor present with potiquii many times 418 00:26:32,160 --> 00:26:34,359 Speaker 1: because of the strain, and that gives you an indication 419 00:26:34,440 --> 00:26:37,719 Speaker 1: of this kind of rigidity that goes on. You'll have 420 00:26:37,760 --> 00:26:42,040 Speaker 1: people that have gastrointestinal problems where they have trouble going 421 00:26:42,040 --> 00:26:44,879 Speaker 1: in the bathroom. They'll develop potiqui I many times. So 422 00:26:44,920 --> 00:26:49,280 Speaker 1: they're not always associated with a specific trauma where people 423 00:26:49,280 --> 00:26:53,920 Speaker 1: are putting hands on somebody or are doing a ligature strangulation. 424 00:26:54,600 --> 00:26:59,160 Speaker 1: When they did do this kind of examination on him 425 00:26:59,359 --> 00:27:02,640 Speaker 1: at the topsy they did note that there was a 426 00:27:02,760 --> 00:27:12,040 Speaker 1: slight light green discoloration on Cooper's abdomen. Now you can't 427 00:27:12,080 --> 00:27:16,880 Speaker 1: say definitively, but many times with a green discoloration that 428 00:27:17,000 --> 00:27:22,040 Speaker 1: is the very very early signs of decomposition. It begins 429 00:27:22,160 --> 00:27:24,920 Speaker 1: with the bowels many times where you'll see this presentation, 430 00:27:25,600 --> 00:27:27,720 Speaker 1: but it would not have been to the point where 431 00:27:27,720 --> 00:27:31,120 Speaker 1: it would have been producing the odor that we can 432 00:27:31,160 --> 00:27:56,119 Speaker 1: generally associate with decomposition. Many folks are asking, you know, 433 00:27:56,160 --> 00:28:00,280 Speaker 1: at the conclusion of ross Haires's trial, how did this happen? 434 00:28:01,160 --> 00:28:06,320 Speaker 1: Exactly what took place? How are you absent unawareness that 435 00:28:06,480 --> 00:28:09,280 Speaker 1: you have this precious little life that's in your charge, 436 00:28:10,040 --> 00:28:13,400 Speaker 1: and not just in your charge for that one moment 437 00:28:13,520 --> 00:28:17,040 Speaker 1: in time, but father and son are involved in a 438 00:28:17,119 --> 00:28:20,879 Speaker 1: daily routine. It's baffling, isn't a jackie. It has baffled 439 00:28:21,040 --> 00:28:25,040 Speaker 1: everyone that has been following this case. Joe first off, 440 00:28:25,800 --> 00:28:31,719 Speaker 1: in the one mile distance from breakfast to the parking 441 00:28:31,760 --> 00:28:36,280 Speaker 1: lot where Justin Ross Harris worked, he says he forgot 442 00:28:36,920 --> 00:28:40,640 Speaker 1: that he was supposed to take this child to daycare. 443 00:28:41,720 --> 00:28:45,320 Speaker 1: I don't know of a child yet that, out of 444 00:28:45,320 --> 00:28:50,440 Speaker 1: the excitement of getting food, is not babbling and talking 445 00:28:51,840 --> 00:28:54,480 Speaker 1: for the less than ten minutes that it would take 446 00:28:55,200 --> 00:28:58,400 Speaker 1: to go that distance. How would he have not Number 447 00:28:58,400 --> 00:29:01,000 Speaker 1: one seen the child in his review mirrors, seeing the 448 00:29:01,040 --> 00:29:04,960 Speaker 1: car seat to remind him. And what's the likelihood that 449 00:29:05,000 --> 00:29:07,560 Speaker 1: the child fell asleep in that amount of time? That 450 00:29:07,680 --> 00:29:09,480 Speaker 1: bit of knowledge kind of hitch in the chest like 451 00:29:09,520 --> 00:29:11,920 Speaker 1: a ten pound sledgehammer when you begin to think about it. 452 00:29:11,880 --> 00:29:15,479 Speaker 1: I remember earlier I had mentioned that when they were 453 00:29:15,480 --> 00:29:18,000 Speaker 1: at Chick fil A, and they were at Chick fil A, 454 00:29:18,840 --> 00:29:20,560 Speaker 1: they were not in the drive through at Chick fil A. 455 00:29:21,640 --> 00:29:24,480 Speaker 1: They were in line at Chick fil A. Matter of fact, 456 00:29:24,840 --> 00:29:28,160 Speaker 1: this particular restaurant's a restaurant that they had gone to 457 00:29:28,280 --> 00:29:31,760 Speaker 1: in the past. People had seen them there in the past. 458 00:29:32,480 --> 00:29:39,400 Speaker 1: And the cct TV images that are there are you know, 459 00:29:39,400 --> 00:29:41,600 Speaker 1: they seem kind of be nine when you look at them, 460 00:29:41,720 --> 00:29:46,040 Speaker 1: but given in total context, it's shocking because he's standing 461 00:29:46,080 --> 00:29:48,920 Speaker 1: there with his precious little life in his arms, in line. 462 00:29:49,560 --> 00:29:52,760 Speaker 1: He's caught on camera there and this is in you know, 463 00:29:52,800 --> 00:29:54,120 Speaker 1: I don't know how it was to say it in 464 00:29:54,120 --> 00:29:56,760 Speaker 1: the twinkling of an eye. It's a very short period 465 00:29:56,800 --> 00:29:59,080 Speaker 1: of time that this is occurring in where they go 466 00:29:59,160 --> 00:30:02,040 Speaker 1: into the restaurant, father and son. They stand in line, 467 00:30:02,280 --> 00:30:04,800 Speaker 1: they get their food, they ingest their food, and then 468 00:30:04,840 --> 00:30:08,000 Speaker 1: they're into the car. And you know, right, you are 469 00:30:08,120 --> 00:30:11,200 Speaker 1: Jackie about you know, talking about the child falling asleep. 470 00:30:11,640 --> 00:30:14,680 Speaker 1: It's not like it's at naptime at two o'clock in 471 00:30:14,680 --> 00:30:17,160 Speaker 1: an afternoon. Kids had enough at that point, they're going 472 00:30:17,240 --> 00:30:19,680 Speaker 1: to drift off. They've got a full tummy after lunch. 473 00:30:19,920 --> 00:30:22,760 Speaker 1: That's not the case we're talking about. This child is 474 00:30:23,200 --> 00:30:26,800 Speaker 1: awakened from a full lunch of sleep, supposedly, gotten dressed, 475 00:30:26,800 --> 00:30:29,240 Speaker 1: gotten ready to stimulated his nose. He's going to school 476 00:30:29,440 --> 00:30:32,520 Speaker 1: or daycare, that's what they do. How could he have 477 00:30:32,640 --> 00:30:35,320 Speaker 1: gone to sleep at that point in time? How could 478 00:30:35,320 --> 00:30:37,520 Speaker 1: that have happened? You know where he's not making any 479 00:30:37,600 --> 00:30:39,680 Speaker 1: noise in the back seat That dad doesn't have any 480 00:30:39,680 --> 00:30:42,680 Speaker 1: awareness is that he is back there. Remember this is 481 00:30:42,720 --> 00:30:47,360 Speaker 1: not like some gigantic suv. This is a hyunday two 482 00:30:47,480 --> 00:30:52,000 Speaker 1: soon twenty eleven. I think there's not a lot of 483 00:30:52,160 --> 00:30:55,360 Speaker 1: room in this thing. I've been in one. It's it's 484 00:30:55,400 --> 00:30:58,040 Speaker 1: bucket seats in the front and then right over your 485 00:30:58,120 --> 00:31:02,200 Speaker 1: right shoulder if you're the driver that car seat. When 486 00:31:02,240 --> 00:31:04,400 Speaker 1: you look at the at the images from the scene, 487 00:31:04,440 --> 00:31:07,520 Speaker 1: it looks like, you know, Harris is a big guy, 488 00:31:07,680 --> 00:31:10,880 Speaker 1: it looks like it would have been almost touching the 489 00:31:10,920 --> 00:31:13,480 Speaker 1: outer aspect of his right shoulder. How can you not 490 00:31:13,680 --> 00:31:18,760 Speaker 1: be physically aware that, first off, that seat is there, 491 00:31:18,880 --> 00:31:21,200 Speaker 1: and that your son that you just placed back in 492 00:31:21,280 --> 00:31:25,160 Speaker 1: it is there as well, and that your memory collapses 493 00:31:26,040 --> 00:31:28,600 Speaker 1: just in that very short period of time where you 494 00:31:28,920 --> 00:31:33,080 Speaker 1: don't go to the daycare but instead you drive. I think, 495 00:31:33,200 --> 00:31:34,960 Speaker 1: I think when I clocked it, it it was there's a 496 00:31:34,960 --> 00:31:37,560 Speaker 1: couple of different routes you can go. It's like seven 497 00:31:37,600 --> 00:31:39,720 Speaker 1: tenths of a mile in one direction, and you take 498 00:31:39,720 --> 00:31:43,880 Speaker 1: another direction. It might be a mile to the headquarters 499 00:31:43,920 --> 00:31:47,160 Speaker 1: where he worked. How's how's that even possible? And I 500 00:31:47,160 --> 00:31:50,160 Speaker 1: think that that's the big head scratcher here. You park 501 00:31:50,200 --> 00:31:53,760 Speaker 1: your car off on one end of the parking lot, 502 00:31:55,240 --> 00:31:58,200 Speaker 1: you leave it there all day long. You go in, 503 00:31:58,400 --> 00:32:02,880 Speaker 1: you know, you you close the door up, you leave 504 00:32:02,920 --> 00:32:07,000 Speaker 1: your kid in the car, You walk across the parking lot, 505 00:32:07,080 --> 00:32:10,120 Speaker 1: maybe you wave at people you see and all the 506 00:32:10,160 --> 00:32:12,920 Speaker 1: while you remember he's been found guilty. All the while 507 00:32:13,600 --> 00:32:17,680 Speaker 1: in your mind, you've your baby's back there in the car, 508 00:32:17,840 --> 00:32:20,840 Speaker 1: and you're walking toward the office. How do you forget that? 509 00:32:21,040 --> 00:32:26,880 Speaker 1: How is that that that happens? And you know, while 510 00:32:27,160 --> 00:32:32,600 Speaker 1: Cooper is struggling. Remember we're talking, you know, we there's 511 00:32:32,600 --> 00:32:36,160 Speaker 1: a time element here. Maybe he had been down for 512 00:32:36,680 --> 00:32:41,680 Speaker 1: I don't know, three hours, maybe three and a half hours. 513 00:32:41,720 --> 00:32:44,600 Speaker 1: By the time his dad comes back out, he's gone 514 00:32:44,600 --> 00:32:47,280 Speaker 1: to lunch, he stopped by somewhere, bought a pack of 515 00:32:47,440 --> 00:32:50,720 Speaker 1: lightbulbs and physically walked over the car and placed the 516 00:32:50,880 --> 00:32:54,000 Speaker 1: lightbulbs in his car. He rode with somebody else, I believe. 517 00:32:55,640 --> 00:32:59,000 Speaker 1: How is it that at that point in time, at 518 00:32:59,040 --> 00:33:03,440 Speaker 1: that point in time, you didn't see Cooper. There's maybe 519 00:33:03,440 --> 00:33:07,360 Speaker 1: a high probability that at that point in time, Cooper 520 00:33:07,360 --> 00:33:10,920 Speaker 1: may have been seizing at that moment, because you know, 521 00:33:11,160 --> 00:33:12,720 Speaker 1: at the end of the day, he was there for 522 00:33:13,000 --> 00:33:14,479 Speaker 1: you know, I don't know, one estimate, it was like 523 00:33:14,480 --> 00:33:16,160 Speaker 1: seven and a half hours. So if you split the 524 00:33:16,240 --> 00:33:19,000 Speaker 1: day in a half, if it took him four hours 525 00:33:19,040 --> 00:33:25,480 Speaker 1: to die in that heat, maybe his stomach is cramping up. 526 00:33:25,640 --> 00:33:28,760 Speaker 1: Maybe his legs are cramping up. Maybe he's trying to 527 00:33:28,800 --> 00:33:31,640 Speaker 1: double over in pain with his abdomen because he's in 528 00:33:31,720 --> 00:33:35,640 Speaker 1: such severe pain, he's disoriented, he's sweating profusely, he's nauseated. 529 00:33:36,920 --> 00:33:38,560 Speaker 1: All the while, he's crying out for his mom and 530 00:33:38,640 --> 00:33:40,400 Speaker 1: daddy in the best way that he can in his 531 00:33:40,440 --> 00:33:44,640 Speaker 1: own little boys that moment, nobody is answering. So one 532 00:33:44,640 --> 00:33:47,480 Speaker 1: of the other questions that people really wanted an answer 533 00:33:47,520 --> 00:33:53,520 Speaker 1: to Joe was the fact that Harris bought lightbulbs while 534 00:33:53,560 --> 00:33:56,840 Speaker 1: he was at lunch and put those lightbulbs in the car. 535 00:33:57,720 --> 00:34:01,160 Speaker 1: How would you, as you mentioned this little boy had 536 00:34:01,200 --> 00:34:05,160 Speaker 1: lost control, and you have that urine smell, even if 537 00:34:05,160 --> 00:34:08,560 Speaker 1: it's not a lot, in just a regular ninety degree temperature, 538 00:34:09,080 --> 00:34:11,880 Speaker 1: in a very short period of time, the smell of 539 00:34:12,040 --> 00:34:15,920 Speaker 1: urine gets extremely strong. How are you not buffeted by 540 00:34:15,960 --> 00:34:19,560 Speaker 1: that as you open the door to get back in. Yeah, 541 00:34:19,600 --> 00:34:21,680 Speaker 1: I mean, you know lots of times. You know, some 542 00:34:21,719 --> 00:34:24,080 Speaker 1: people have equated the smell of your in a very 543 00:34:24,120 --> 00:34:26,400 Speaker 1: mild sense, at least to the smell of ammonia in 544 00:34:26,400 --> 00:34:29,319 Speaker 1: a mile sense, not like you're cracking up in a 545 00:34:29,360 --> 00:34:32,240 Speaker 1: bottle of ammonia that you buy at the grocery store 546 00:34:32,360 --> 00:34:37,000 Speaker 1: or or smelling salts. But it does have that that 547 00:34:38,120 --> 00:34:41,600 Speaker 1: pungent odor to it. And the longer kind of festers 548 00:34:41,600 --> 00:34:44,280 Speaker 1: in the heat like that, and the more pungent it becomes. 549 00:34:44,320 --> 00:34:47,000 Speaker 1: How do you not have that awareness? And where did 550 00:34:47,000 --> 00:34:50,439 Speaker 1: you place these lightbulbs? You know, again, he's a big guy. 551 00:34:50,520 --> 00:34:53,919 Speaker 1: He occupies a lot of space. Did you just reach 552 00:34:53,960 --> 00:34:56,919 Speaker 1: in and drop them on the seat and you didn't 553 00:34:56,920 --> 00:34:59,760 Speaker 1: pay attention to anything else? Because you had to work 554 00:34:59,760 --> 00:35:01,960 Speaker 1: the lock in order to get into the vehicle. You 555 00:35:02,040 --> 00:35:06,680 Speaker 1: had to you had to manipulate the door handle in 556 00:35:06,760 --> 00:35:09,440 Speaker 1: order to gain access. After you've unlocked the vehicle, you 557 00:35:09,480 --> 00:35:11,360 Speaker 1: have to bend over at the waist and drop the 558 00:35:11,440 --> 00:35:13,319 Speaker 1: light bulbs in. Then you have to stand back up, 559 00:35:13,600 --> 00:35:15,600 Speaker 1: You have to lock the door, you have to close 560 00:35:15,680 --> 00:35:17,680 Speaker 1: the door. Then you have to turn on your heel 561 00:35:17,920 --> 00:35:19,759 Speaker 1: and you have to walk back to the office. How 562 00:35:19,840 --> 00:35:21,520 Speaker 1: is it at that moment time you were not aware 563 00:35:21,560 --> 00:35:25,399 Speaker 1: that your child was in that car? How does that happen? 564 00:35:25,480 --> 00:35:28,759 Speaker 1: I don't I don't know that I have the calculus 565 00:35:28,800 --> 00:35:31,960 Speaker 1: to figure that. You know, Other than the fact that 566 00:35:32,000 --> 00:35:34,240 Speaker 1: he was found guilty of this, the people in jury 567 00:35:34,320 --> 00:35:37,200 Speaker 1: obviously felt as though that he had kind of thought 568 00:35:37,280 --> 00:35:42,120 Speaker 1: this thing through, that this was the plan all along. Well, Joe, 569 00:35:42,160 --> 00:35:47,040 Speaker 1: we may find out for sure because justin Ross, Harris's 570 00:35:47,080 --> 00:35:51,120 Speaker 1: attorney say he deserves a new trial in this case, 571 00:35:51,400 --> 00:35:55,360 Speaker 1: that the sexual messages that he was sending does not 572 00:35:55,560 --> 00:35:58,480 Speaker 1: make him a killer. So all of these things that 573 00:35:58,520 --> 00:36:01,400 Speaker 1: we've been talking about today, if he gets a new trial, 574 00:36:02,520 --> 00:36:07,759 Speaker 1: would be rehashed all over again. What do you think 575 00:36:07,760 --> 00:36:10,960 Speaker 1: we're going to see, Joe, I think that, Okay, I'll 576 00:36:11,000 --> 00:36:12,920 Speaker 1: put it to this way. Out of all the cases 577 00:36:12,920 --> 00:36:15,160 Speaker 1: I've covered and all the cases I've worked in my career, 578 00:36:16,160 --> 00:36:20,279 Speaker 1: I've never come across a case where somebody utilized a 579 00:36:20,320 --> 00:36:23,799 Speaker 1: motor vehicle in order to facilitate a homicide. And that's 580 00:36:23,800 --> 00:36:27,360 Speaker 1: what this is. This is pure murder. He was found 581 00:36:27,360 --> 00:36:32,920 Speaker 1: guilty of malice murder. I've never seen this. And the 582 00:36:33,000 --> 00:36:36,279 Speaker 1: one thing, the one thought about this is that it 583 00:36:36,400 --> 00:36:42,239 Speaker 1: seems so nutty. It seems so unhinged the fact that 584 00:36:42,400 --> 00:36:45,280 Speaker 1: someone would have used the utility of a heated vehicle 585 00:36:45,320 --> 00:36:48,719 Speaker 1: in order to take a small child's life. There might 586 00:36:48,760 --> 00:36:50,520 Speaker 1: be a chance he's going to get a new trial 587 00:36:50,960 --> 00:36:55,760 Speaker 1: because this is not like he you know, he struck 588 00:36:55,840 --> 00:36:58,520 Speaker 1: this child, or he shot his child, or even poison 589 00:36:58,640 --> 00:37:02,880 Speaker 1: this child. This is something so far off the beam, 590 00:37:02,920 --> 00:37:06,960 Speaker 1: if you will, relative to the thought of committing a homicide, 591 00:37:07,280 --> 00:37:13,480 Speaker 1: that there might be enough. There might be enough here 592 00:37:13,640 --> 00:37:18,000 Speaker 1: for the courts to decide that maybe this needs to 593 00:37:18,000 --> 00:37:20,759 Speaker 1: be taken a look at one more time. He might 594 00:37:20,920 --> 00:37:29,440 Speaker 1: get another trial. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is Bodybacks.