1 00:00:02,920 --> 00:00:06,120 Speaker 1: I'm Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the Thing. 2 00:00:08,880 --> 00:00:12,680 Speaker 1: Jodie Canter and Megan Twoey are the New York Times 3 00:00:12,800 --> 00:00:17,160 Speaker 1: reporters who broke the Harvey Weinstein story for five months. 4 00:00:17,200 --> 00:00:21,200 Speaker 1: Perpetually in danger of losing the scoop, they cultivated and 5 00:00:21,280 --> 00:00:26,320 Speaker 1: cajoled sources ranging from the Weinstein's accountant to Ashley Judd. 6 00:00:27,040 --> 00:00:30,720 Speaker 1: The article that emerged on October five, two thousand seventeen, 7 00:00:31,440 --> 00:00:35,920 Speaker 1: was a level headed and impeccably sourced expose whose effects 8 00:00:36,000 --> 00:00:41,440 Speaker 1: continue to be felt around the world. Cantor and Towey 9 00:00:41,600 --> 00:00:46,720 Speaker 1: documented twenty five years of sexual abuse, harassment, and exploitation 10 00:00:47,200 --> 00:00:50,000 Speaker 1: by one of the most important producers in the history 11 00:00:50,120 --> 00:00:53,920 Speaker 1: of Hollywood. The story put a definitive end to his 12 00:00:54,080 --> 00:00:59,520 Speaker 1: career and his company. It has also shaken the lives 13 00:00:59,520 --> 00:01:03,800 Speaker 1: of some those who supported and defended him, like lawyer 14 00:01:03,880 --> 00:01:07,360 Speaker 1: Lisa Bloom, who until last year had followed the path 15 00:01:07,440 --> 00:01:12,920 Speaker 1: of her feminist mother, Gloria Allread in representing victims. And 16 00:01:13,040 --> 00:01:16,560 Speaker 1: just as clearly, the reporters documented the loose network of 17 00:01:16,600 --> 00:01:21,840 Speaker 1: business and creative interests that enabled rape, harassment, and casting 18 00:01:21,920 --> 00:01:27,399 Speaker 1: couch coercion. They revealed to America, the culture in Hollywood 19 00:01:27,840 --> 00:01:31,320 Speaker 1: that knew about all of this and disapproved, but expected 20 00:01:31,440 --> 00:01:36,000 Speaker 1: individual women victimized and isolated to bear the burden of 21 00:01:36,040 --> 00:01:41,280 Speaker 1: exposing the powerful men who humiliated them themselves. But before 22 00:01:41,440 --> 00:01:45,080 Speaker 1: any of the fallout, Jodi Canter and Megan Tooey had 23 00:01:45,160 --> 00:01:48,680 Speaker 1: to source up. One of the first daunting casks was 24 00:01:48,760 --> 00:01:51,080 Speaker 1: to try to get in touch with these famous actresses. 25 00:01:51,600 --> 00:01:54,960 Speaker 1: But Megan and I were like, we don't know any actresses, 26 00:01:55,200 --> 00:01:57,640 Speaker 1: you know, and getting We're sitting there saying, Okay, how 27 00:01:57,680 --> 00:02:00,080 Speaker 1: do you get you know, Ashley Judge's phone? Actually it 28 00:02:00,160 --> 00:02:03,160 Speaker 1: was the path to actually Judge. You can well, that 29 00:02:03,200 --> 00:02:05,600 Speaker 1: one was pretty easy because Nick Kristof knew her and 30 00:02:05,840 --> 00:02:08,920 Speaker 1: Christof the opinion columnist at the Times. But we felt 31 00:02:08,960 --> 00:02:11,680 Speaker 1: strongly that we could not go through publicists or agents 32 00:02:11,720 --> 00:02:13,959 Speaker 1: because their gatekeepers, they're just going to shut everything down. 33 00:02:14,240 --> 00:02:18,280 Speaker 1: We wanted to reach the actresses directly, and and so 34 00:02:18,360 --> 00:02:21,200 Speaker 1: the questions were, you know, how do you reach these people, 35 00:02:21,680 --> 00:02:23,600 Speaker 1: And even if you get them on the phone, what 36 00:02:23,639 --> 00:02:25,200 Speaker 1: are you going to say in the first forty five 37 00:02:25,240 --> 00:02:28,840 Speaker 1: seconds of that phone conversation to earn some trust and 38 00:02:28,919 --> 00:02:31,920 Speaker 1: keep the conversation going. So Actually, that's sort of the 39 00:02:31,960 --> 00:02:34,600 Speaker 1: origin of my partnership with Megan, because Megan was on 40 00:02:34,680 --> 00:02:37,400 Speaker 1: maternity leave, and but she had been a sex crimes 41 00:02:37,440 --> 00:02:39,040 Speaker 1: reporter for a long time, and she had done the 42 00:02:39,080 --> 00:02:41,560 Speaker 1: reporting one and Donald Trump and women. At the time, 43 00:02:41,760 --> 00:02:44,120 Speaker 1: I worked at the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel, I worked at 44 00:02:44,160 --> 00:02:46,400 Speaker 1: the Chicago Triman, and I've been at the Times a 45 00:02:46,480 --> 00:02:48,560 Speaker 1: year and a half. Um I came into The Times 46 00:02:48,560 --> 00:02:50,360 Speaker 1: in two thousand and sixteen to join the team that 47 00:02:50,440 --> 00:02:54,560 Speaker 1: was doing coverage of the two thousand and sixteen presidential race. 48 00:02:54,800 --> 00:02:57,880 Speaker 1: So I had done these stories about Trump and his 49 00:02:57,919 --> 00:03:01,080 Speaker 1: treatment of women, and after he was elected, had been 50 00:03:01,200 --> 00:03:03,360 Speaker 1: part of the coverage of his when we were first 51 00:03:03,400 --> 00:03:06,520 Speaker 1: looking at the ties between him and Russia. UM So, 52 00:03:06,600 --> 00:03:09,680 Speaker 1: I had been doing that work up until the March 53 00:03:09,800 --> 00:03:11,639 Speaker 1: of two thousand seventeen, when I had a baby and 54 00:03:11,680 --> 00:03:14,120 Speaker 1: went on maternity leave. And so it was while I 55 00:03:14,160 --> 00:03:16,360 Speaker 1: was on maternity leave that Jody started the wine scene 56 00:03:16,400 --> 00:03:18,520 Speaker 1: investigation and sort of called me. We didn't even know 57 00:03:18,560 --> 00:03:20,400 Speaker 1: each other, and she called me and said, I know 58 00:03:20,440 --> 00:03:22,959 Speaker 1: you've done stories in the past about victims of sex crimes, 59 00:03:22,960 --> 00:03:24,400 Speaker 1: and I know you did reporting with some of the 60 00:03:24,400 --> 00:03:27,520 Speaker 1: women who were who accused Trump of sexual misconduct. Do 61 00:03:27,520 --> 00:03:30,480 Speaker 1: you have any suggestions of of you know, how how 62 00:03:30,560 --> 00:03:32,480 Speaker 1: you know what to say when you're knocking on these 63 00:03:32,480 --> 00:03:35,040 Speaker 1: doors and picking up the phone and calling people and 64 00:03:35,080 --> 00:03:37,880 Speaker 1: to asking them to open up about these painful experiences 65 00:03:37,920 --> 00:03:39,720 Speaker 1: in their past. So when Megan and I were on 66 00:03:39,720 --> 00:03:43,760 Speaker 1: the phone, uh, she suggested a kind of argument that 67 00:03:43,800 --> 00:03:45,760 Speaker 1: she had used with victims in the past, which is 68 00:03:45,840 --> 00:03:49,600 Speaker 1: to say to them very early in the conversation, look, 69 00:03:50,600 --> 00:03:53,320 Speaker 1: I can't change what's happened to you in the past, 70 00:03:53,760 --> 00:03:56,440 Speaker 1: but if we work together, maybe we can take the 71 00:03:56,480 --> 00:03:59,400 Speaker 1: pain that you experienced and put it to some constructive 72 00:03:59,400 --> 00:04:03,720 Speaker 1: purpose will help other people. And when Megan said that, 73 00:04:03,800 --> 00:04:06,640 Speaker 1: it was like something clicked for me because it's the 74 00:04:06,680 --> 00:04:09,080 Speaker 1: best reason to talk to a journalist. And also, so 75 00:04:09,120 --> 00:04:11,200 Speaker 1: many people fear that talking to a journalist is a 76 00:04:11,200 --> 00:04:13,720 Speaker 1: bad thing, like oh, it's traitorous, or you're a tattle tale, 77 00:04:13,760 --> 00:04:16,359 Speaker 1: or you're complaining or whatever. And what we like to 78 00:04:16,360 --> 00:04:18,800 Speaker 1: do is redefine it as a more noble thing. You 79 00:04:18,839 --> 00:04:23,320 Speaker 1: are doing this to have a constructive impact on society. 80 00:04:23,400 --> 00:04:26,039 Speaker 1: It is. It may be very difficult, but our goal 81 00:04:26,240 --> 00:04:28,080 Speaker 1: is to do something that you can eventually feel very 82 00:04:28,080 --> 00:04:31,080 Speaker 1: proud of and so that was really that was really 83 00:04:31,120 --> 00:04:34,840 Speaker 1: the beginning of our beginning of our partnership. In your book, 84 00:04:34,839 --> 00:04:38,279 Speaker 1: you're write about Lisa Bloom. This is all Red's daughter. 85 00:04:39,279 --> 00:04:43,359 Speaker 1: I'm wondering someone like that, What does she think she's doing. 86 00:04:43,920 --> 00:04:45,360 Speaker 1: Does she go to bed every night and sit there 87 00:04:45,400 --> 00:04:48,839 Speaker 1: and go, ah, we're pulling a fast one and everyone 88 00:04:48,880 --> 00:04:51,120 Speaker 1: as I'm doing all this work for Harvey? What does 89 00:04:51,160 --> 00:04:53,480 Speaker 1: she think she's doing? Something up? What does she tell herself? 90 00:04:53,480 --> 00:04:55,560 Speaker 1: Do you think I mean, maybe there will be a 91 00:04:55,640 --> 00:04:58,200 Speaker 1: day where Lisa Bloom comes into a studio and sits 92 00:04:58,200 --> 00:05:01,039 Speaker 1: down and opens up her art and tells us what 93 00:05:01,160 --> 00:05:05,360 Speaker 1: she's been thinking and feeling and why report and why 94 00:05:05,360 --> 00:05:06,719 Speaker 1: it was. I mean, what we can tell you is 95 00:05:06,760 --> 00:05:09,839 Speaker 1: that she did something remarkable in two thousand sixteen. She 96 00:05:09,880 --> 00:05:12,159 Speaker 1: has been one of the most prominent feminist attorneys in 97 00:05:12,160 --> 00:05:15,920 Speaker 1: the country, worked with countless victims of sexual harassment and 98 00:05:15,960 --> 00:05:18,839 Speaker 1: sexual assault, and in two thousand sixteen crossed over to 99 00:05:18,880 --> 00:05:20,760 Speaker 1: the other side. Why do you think she has said 100 00:05:20,800 --> 00:05:24,279 Speaker 1: that she thought that he only engaged in inappropriate comments 101 00:05:24,279 --> 00:05:26,760 Speaker 1: towards women, and that she wanted to help him go 102 00:05:26,880 --> 00:05:30,320 Speaker 1: work with him to help him apologize. You know, we 103 00:05:30,400 --> 00:05:32,640 Speaker 1: obtained in the course of the reporting for this book, 104 00:05:32,680 --> 00:05:35,920 Speaker 1: these confidential records that showed she had much deeper knowledge 105 00:05:35,960 --> 00:05:38,640 Speaker 1: of the serious allegations against him, and that she played 106 00:05:38,680 --> 00:05:41,640 Speaker 1: a much darker role. I mean, she was not honest 107 00:05:41,680 --> 00:05:43,440 Speaker 1: about the work she did for him. We've got the 108 00:05:43,440 --> 00:05:45,800 Speaker 1: billing records, the memo in which she spells out all 109 00:05:45,800 --> 00:05:49,560 Speaker 1: the underhanded tactics she's gonna use to help him undermine 110 00:05:49,600 --> 00:05:52,480 Speaker 1: his accusers, and she's basically saying, I'm going to use 111 00:05:52,520 --> 00:05:55,960 Speaker 1: all my experience working with victims and harness that and 112 00:05:56,040 --> 00:05:59,400 Speaker 1: use it with you to work against them. And so 113 00:05:59,440 --> 00:06:01,440 Speaker 1: it was us about money. I mean, what we know 114 00:06:01,520 --> 00:06:04,040 Speaker 1: for sure is that she had done a deal with Weinstein. 115 00:06:04,400 --> 00:06:06,520 Speaker 1: She wanted she had a book that he was going 116 00:06:06,520 --> 00:06:10,920 Speaker 1: to turn into a movie about Trayvon Martin. But beyond that, 117 00:06:10,960 --> 00:06:13,320 Speaker 1: I mean, we don't we She has not opened up. 118 00:06:13,360 --> 00:06:15,400 Speaker 1: And when we saw when we sawt comment from her 119 00:06:15,520 --> 00:06:18,000 Speaker 1: for this book, I mean, we wouldn't publish. Uh, you know, 120 00:06:18,040 --> 00:06:20,280 Speaker 1: we published that memo that she wrote to him spelling 121 00:06:20,279 --> 00:06:22,200 Speaker 1: out exactly what she was going to do for him, 122 00:06:22,240 --> 00:06:25,800 Speaker 1: which really contradicts her public comments about what the role 123 00:06:25,839 --> 00:06:27,479 Speaker 1: that she played and why she went to go work 124 00:06:27,560 --> 00:06:29,920 Speaker 1: for him in its entirety so that readers could see 125 00:06:29,960 --> 00:06:32,200 Speaker 1: for themselves what she was saying in her own words 126 00:06:32,200 --> 00:06:34,880 Speaker 1: and doing at the time. But when we presented her 127 00:06:34,920 --> 00:06:37,719 Speaker 1: with that um she she refused to comment. She said 128 00:06:37,720 --> 00:06:40,120 Speaker 1: that you know, she that she was gonna abide by 129 00:06:40,120 --> 00:06:47,479 Speaker 1: attorney client privilege, is you know, as into the future. Look, 130 00:06:47,520 --> 00:06:51,599 Speaker 1: I think you're asking the right question, which is you've 131 00:06:51,600 --> 00:06:54,880 Speaker 1: got one of the most famous feminist attorneys in the country. 132 00:06:54,880 --> 00:06:59,280 Speaker 1: She's Gloria Alread's daughter. She's been advertising herself as a 133 00:06:59,400 --> 00:07:02,840 Speaker 1: victim's rights attorney and a fighter for women for all 134 00:07:02,920 --> 00:07:06,560 Speaker 1: of these years, and she makes what we know is 135 00:07:06,600 --> 00:07:10,480 Speaker 1: a very intentional decision to cross the line and work 136 00:07:10,520 --> 00:07:13,920 Speaker 1: for Harvey Weinstein. And we know it's intentional because of 137 00:07:13,960 --> 00:07:16,440 Speaker 1: the memo that Megan just described. This is her job 138 00:07:16,480 --> 00:07:20,720 Speaker 1: audition memo, and in it she's saying, I will smear 139 00:07:20,840 --> 00:07:25,320 Speaker 1: on your behalf, I will manipulate on your behalf. So 140 00:07:25,360 --> 00:07:29,120 Speaker 1: the question is what led her over? You know what? 141 00:07:29,280 --> 00:07:33,880 Speaker 1: Did she genuinely not believe the women she represented over 142 00:07:33,960 --> 00:07:40,160 Speaker 1: the years. Was she did she think that Rose McGowan 143 00:07:40,280 --> 00:07:43,000 Speaker 1: was just making it all up? Etcetera, etcetera. So we 144 00:07:43,080 --> 00:07:44,800 Speaker 1: can't look you know, she's not here, we don't have 145 00:07:44,840 --> 00:07:46,960 Speaker 1: a crystal ball, etcetera, etcetera. But here's what we can 146 00:07:47,040 --> 00:07:50,680 Speaker 1: tell you, because this also applies to David Boys, the 147 00:07:51,240 --> 00:07:56,720 Speaker 1: other super lawyer, the renewer, the renowned litigator who did 148 00:07:57,240 --> 00:08:00,720 Speaker 1: Bush v. Gore and help get gay marriage establish. Here's 149 00:08:00,760 --> 00:08:04,400 Speaker 1: the common denominator that Bloom and Boys have in going 150 00:08:04,440 --> 00:08:07,480 Speaker 1: to work for Weinstein. They both wanted to be in 151 00:08:07,480 --> 00:08:12,080 Speaker 1: the movie business. I know Bloom, so blooms, but Bloom 152 00:08:12,560 --> 00:08:14,960 Speaker 1: called me because it's not what it's cracked up to be. Well, 153 00:08:15,000 --> 00:08:19,160 Speaker 1: Bloom writes this book called Suspicion Nation about Trayvon Martin 154 00:08:19,680 --> 00:08:23,240 Speaker 1: and gets very excited because Harvey Weinstein and Jay Z 155 00:08:24,080 --> 00:08:27,320 Speaker 1: option it to turn it into a film. Boys, for 156 00:08:27,400 --> 00:08:29,920 Speaker 1: all of his vast, fast, fast legal success, what does 157 00:08:29,960 --> 00:08:32,280 Speaker 1: he really want to do, at least in part, is 158 00:08:32,320 --> 00:08:35,160 Speaker 1: be in the movies. He's got interests in the movie business. 159 00:08:35,200 --> 00:08:39,040 Speaker 1: His daughter wasn't budding actress and wanted roles. And we 160 00:08:39,160 --> 00:08:41,640 Speaker 1: even obtained an email in which you've got Harvey sort 161 00:08:41,640 --> 00:08:43,280 Speaker 1: of setting her up for a part in one of 162 00:08:43,280 --> 00:08:47,200 Speaker 1: his films. And so I mean, I think so much 163 00:08:47,240 --> 00:08:50,319 Speaker 1: of this story, and this was part of my original 164 00:08:50,400 --> 00:08:54,280 Speaker 1: draw to it is about like, what is the power 165 00:08:54,440 --> 00:08:58,559 Speaker 1: that these movies have on all of us? Right? Because 166 00:08:58,960 --> 00:09:03,960 Speaker 1: it's because that's the way Weinstein got everybody to do 167 00:09:04,000 --> 00:09:05,920 Speaker 1: what he wanted. That was the source of his power, 168 00:09:06,080 --> 00:09:09,880 Speaker 1: not just in luring people like boys and Bloom into 169 00:09:09,920 --> 00:09:13,240 Speaker 1: my magnetic view exactly, but also with the women, right, 170 00:09:13,280 --> 00:09:16,559 Speaker 1: I mean, this was all about work. Look, it's really 171 00:09:16,600 --> 00:09:20,199 Speaker 1: important to remember that there are two categories of women 172 00:09:20,320 --> 00:09:26,199 Speaker 1: essentially that Weinstein allegedly harasses and assaults. One of them actresses. 173 00:09:26,679 --> 00:09:30,520 Speaker 1: The second assistance women who want to be producers, right, 174 00:09:30,679 --> 00:09:33,200 Speaker 1: women who are twenty three years old, and they're so 175 00:09:33,280 --> 00:09:37,400 Speaker 1: excited because they're on their very first day at a 176 00:09:37,400 --> 00:09:39,960 Speaker 1: company like Mirrormax or the Weinstein Company. This is going 177 00:09:40,040 --> 00:09:42,240 Speaker 1: to be their big shot. It's so exciting, there's so 178 00:09:42,320 --> 00:09:45,400 Speaker 1: much potential here. And then boom, Harvey Weinstein walks into 179 00:09:45,400 --> 00:09:48,080 Speaker 1: the room and everything changes. And so this is all 180 00:09:48,120 --> 00:09:52,240 Speaker 1: about the actresses and the assistance. Both. They're coming into 181 00:09:52,320 --> 00:09:56,880 Speaker 1: this with with dreams, with ideas, with ambitions, with hopes, 182 00:09:57,240 --> 00:10:00,400 Speaker 1: and he turns those hopes and ambitions against the women, 183 00:10:00,480 --> 00:10:03,360 Speaker 1: and that has to do also with the power of 184 00:10:03,400 --> 00:10:06,040 Speaker 1: the movie. Is the power of this work? You know, 185 00:10:06,360 --> 00:10:09,800 Speaker 1: what is your ticket into this world? And how can that? 186 00:10:10,360 --> 00:10:13,079 Speaker 1: You know, is your desire for entry into this world 187 00:10:13,080 --> 00:10:16,240 Speaker 1: a kind of vulnerability that can then be turned against you? 188 00:10:16,240 --> 00:10:18,679 Speaker 1: You can? You don't? I mean, I hope I phrase 189 00:10:18,760 --> 00:10:20,880 Speaker 1: this the right way, which is that I want to believe. 190 00:10:21,040 --> 00:10:23,800 Speaker 1: I'm assuming in your work on Earth some things about 191 00:10:23,840 --> 00:10:28,800 Speaker 1: Weinstein that were compelling, seductive, like when people were around him, 192 00:10:28,800 --> 00:10:31,800 Speaker 1: there had to be something about him that facilitated the 193 00:10:31,800 --> 00:10:33,920 Speaker 1: whole event that would happen with some of these people. 194 00:10:34,360 --> 00:10:38,360 Speaker 1: He was a towering figure of accomplishment in the movie business. 195 00:10:38,760 --> 00:10:42,520 Speaker 1: He was a savant who knew everything there is to 196 00:10:42,640 --> 00:10:46,360 Speaker 1: know about every aspect on the deepest level of movie making, 197 00:10:46,440 --> 00:10:50,480 Speaker 1: movie production, movie development, movie distribution. There are very few 198 00:10:50,480 --> 00:10:54,280 Speaker 1: people There are almost none. The only equal Weinstein has 199 00:10:54,360 --> 00:10:56,880 Speaker 1: is Spielberg in terms of knowing everything there is to 200 00:10:56,960 --> 00:11:03,720 Speaker 1: know about developing, casting, sets, everything and most importantle, selling 201 00:11:03,800 --> 00:11:06,760 Speaker 1: that movie and marketing that movie, and that awards matrix 202 00:11:06,760 --> 00:11:10,600 Speaker 1: that he dominated for so long. People thought Weinstein was 203 00:11:10,679 --> 00:11:15,560 Speaker 1: a genius. Well, we certainly witnessed Weinstein in action. We 204 00:11:15,679 --> 00:11:18,840 Speaker 1: interviewed him several times he came into The New York 205 00:11:18,840 --> 00:11:23,080 Speaker 1: Times for sit down interview and he was I think 206 00:11:23,120 --> 00:11:26,480 Speaker 1: that we were able to see in person um that 207 00:11:26,960 --> 00:11:30,160 Speaker 1: this sort of range of this this sort of the 208 00:11:30,200 --> 00:11:34,800 Speaker 1: spectrum of his behavior that he would swing from kind 209 00:11:34,840 --> 00:11:39,480 Speaker 1: of charm and compliments and kind of ingratiating himself and like, well, 210 00:11:39,520 --> 00:11:42,040 Speaker 1: the New York Times, it's the best paper in the world, 211 00:11:42,120 --> 00:11:44,200 Speaker 1: and you know, let me tell you a story about it. 212 00:11:44,240 --> 00:11:46,240 Speaker 1: What a huge fan I am of the New York Times. 213 00:11:46,720 --> 00:11:49,320 Speaker 1: In terms of how he was able to pray on women, 214 00:11:49,440 --> 00:11:51,520 Speaker 1: I think that that is a separate question from how 215 00:11:51,520 --> 00:11:53,960 Speaker 1: he was able to sort of keep people in his 216 00:11:54,120 --> 00:11:58,240 Speaker 1: orbit and maintain his power. That really is one of 217 00:11:58,280 --> 00:12:00,839 Speaker 1: the most important questions is that they were actually people 218 00:12:00,880 --> 00:12:05,000 Speaker 1: who got glimpses of his alleged misconduct over the years, 219 00:12:05,040 --> 00:12:07,199 Speaker 1: and what did they do about it? And and how 220 00:12:07,240 --> 00:12:09,240 Speaker 1: does how can we explain the fact that there were 221 00:12:09,240 --> 00:12:13,040 Speaker 1: so many individuals and institutions, including his own companies, that 222 00:12:13,120 --> 00:12:16,360 Speaker 1: became complicit in his abuse. And what we were able 223 00:12:16,400 --> 00:12:19,040 Speaker 1: to see is that he kind of employed a variety 224 00:12:19,280 --> 00:12:23,079 Speaker 1: of personality traits from from you know, sort of charm 225 00:12:23,160 --> 00:12:29,480 Speaker 1: machine to threatening uh to lashing out, to manipulation, to bullying, 226 00:12:29,760 --> 00:12:31,600 Speaker 1: and he seemed to kind of pull these out of 227 00:12:31,640 --> 00:12:34,400 Speaker 1: his pocket at various times to try to get what 228 00:12:34,440 --> 00:12:36,800 Speaker 1: he had wanted. And I think that that he had 229 00:12:36,800 --> 00:12:38,719 Speaker 1: been able to use that we in our book were 230 00:12:38,760 --> 00:12:42,040 Speaker 1: able to report out, uh this remarkable two years in 231 00:12:42,080 --> 00:12:45,400 Speaker 1: his own company in two thousand fourteen and two thousand fifteen, 232 00:12:45,440 --> 00:12:48,640 Speaker 1: when there were more and more allegations coming to the 233 00:12:48,679 --> 00:12:52,000 Speaker 1: surface that you know, people high up in the company, 234 00:12:52,040 --> 00:12:55,440 Speaker 1: including his own brother Bob Weinstein, saw he was among 235 00:12:55,440 --> 00:12:58,079 Speaker 1: the people who wanted to do something and wanted to intervene, 236 00:12:58,520 --> 00:13:01,200 Speaker 1: and and Weinstein was really able to use a variety 237 00:13:01,200 --> 00:13:07,400 Speaker 1: of tactics to ultimately shut down these efforts of accountability. 238 00:13:08,120 --> 00:13:19,480 Speaker 1: Reporters Jodie Cantor and Megan Twoey, I'm at like Baldwin 239 00:13:19,880 --> 00:13:24,120 Speaker 1: back now with reporters Jodie cant and Megan Twoey. I've 240 00:13:24,160 --> 00:13:27,280 Speaker 1: never really worked with anyone who has had this strong 241 00:13:27,440 --> 00:13:30,760 Speaker 1: and internal compass, and I think that compass has just 242 00:13:31,040 --> 00:13:35,680 Speaker 1: like pulled us forward again and again and again. I 243 00:13:35,679 --> 00:13:39,480 Speaker 1: think also that Megan is very exacting. God is in 244 00:13:39,520 --> 00:13:42,320 Speaker 1: the details, you know, God is in the details on 245 00:13:42,960 --> 00:13:46,720 Speaker 1: these stories. And I you know, I hope our sources 246 00:13:46,760 --> 00:13:48,920 Speaker 1: feel the same way I do, which is that like 247 00:13:49,040 --> 00:13:52,400 Speaker 1: when I'm in Megan's hands, I just feel like I'm 248 00:13:52,440 --> 00:13:55,480 Speaker 1: working with a like a world class surgeon or something, 249 00:13:55,960 --> 00:14:00,400 Speaker 1: because the level of precision is so incredibly high. I 250 00:14:00,640 --> 00:14:05,680 Speaker 1: feel Megan's incredible compassion and empathy for victims, but like 251 00:14:05,760 --> 00:14:08,240 Speaker 1: kind of wrapped in this rigor. That only makes it 252 00:14:08,320 --> 00:14:12,760 Speaker 1: better because it's not It's not about sitting around and crying, 253 00:14:13,120 --> 00:14:15,640 Speaker 1: you know, that's the role of a psychologist or a friend. 254 00:14:16,120 --> 00:14:19,400 Speaker 1: It's about having the strength and the force to make 255 00:14:19,440 --> 00:14:22,920 Speaker 1: the story really really work and make people feel safe 256 00:14:23,640 --> 00:14:28,400 Speaker 1: through the power and the strength of the journalism. And 257 00:14:28,440 --> 00:14:31,360 Speaker 1: then I think the final thing I would say is 258 00:14:31,400 --> 00:14:37,080 Speaker 1: that I see a relentlessness and an understanding of the 259 00:14:37,120 --> 00:14:41,720 Speaker 1: psychology of how to get people to give you information. 260 00:14:43,560 --> 00:14:46,720 Speaker 1: When this is for Megan, When Jody Canter comes out 261 00:14:46,760 --> 00:14:49,880 Speaker 1: of the bullpen and she said into the mound, what 262 00:14:50,000 --> 00:14:52,520 Speaker 1: are her? What are the better afraid of? What pitches 263 00:14:52,560 --> 00:14:55,560 Speaker 1: does she have in her repertoire, I would say, I 264 00:14:55,600 --> 00:14:57,800 Speaker 1: think that there's one word that comes to mind when 265 00:14:57,840 --> 00:15:02,480 Speaker 1: I when I think of Jody, which is persistance. Um, 266 00:15:02,720 --> 00:15:05,000 Speaker 1: like you know heaven, Like, I sort of pity the 267 00:15:05,040 --> 00:15:08,120 Speaker 1: person who's trying to get between you know, Jody and 268 00:15:08,120 --> 00:15:13,160 Speaker 1: and the information that she's pursuing. And she is just um, 269 00:15:13,240 --> 00:15:16,720 Speaker 1: she's just a total bulldog. And it's no surprise that 270 00:15:16,800 --> 00:15:18,680 Speaker 1: you know, there was there was a there was sort 271 00:15:18,680 --> 00:15:22,080 Speaker 1: of a deep throat figure in the Weinstein investigation. Irwin 272 00:15:22,240 --> 00:15:26,960 Speaker 1: Ryder was in the top orbit of executives by Weinstein 273 00:15:27,080 --> 00:15:31,640 Speaker 1: side for years and ended up actually, over the course 274 00:15:31,880 --> 00:15:36,320 Speaker 1: of a series of secretive meetings with Jodie Cantor, ended 275 00:15:36,400 --> 00:15:41,000 Speaker 1: up providing all this information about the harm that Weinstein 276 00:15:41,040 --> 00:15:44,160 Speaker 1: was doing two women in the company. Ultimately, well, I 277 00:15:44,160 --> 00:15:45,800 Speaker 1: think because he was he was in the hands of 278 00:15:45,880 --> 00:15:48,600 Speaker 1: Jodie Canter. No, no, no, no, that's not true. He 279 00:15:48,640 --> 00:15:50,880 Speaker 1: didn't know because no, excuse me, I'm sorry, No, I will, 280 00:15:50,920 --> 00:15:53,160 Speaker 1: I will, I will correct that this was somebody who 281 00:15:53,440 --> 00:15:56,280 Speaker 1: had seen wrongdoing, had become increasingly concerned about it, had 282 00:15:56,320 --> 00:15:58,880 Speaker 1: tried to do things to hold the boss accountable to 283 00:15:58,960 --> 00:16:03,240 Speaker 1: no avail. And so when Jodie came knocking, was um, 284 00:16:03,280 --> 00:16:09,240 Speaker 1: I think inclined to do something. But the extent to 285 00:16:09,320 --> 00:16:12,280 Speaker 1: which I mean Jody from the first email she sent 286 00:16:12,360 --> 00:16:15,760 Speaker 1: to him, through the meetings that she had with him 287 00:16:15,760 --> 00:16:20,960 Speaker 1: in secret in Tribeca, she was able to ultimately get 288 00:16:21,040 --> 00:16:23,360 Speaker 1: him to not only start to tell her about what 289 00:16:23,400 --> 00:16:27,000 Speaker 1: was going on within the company, but ultimately provide her 290 00:16:27,120 --> 00:16:30,800 Speaker 1: with an internal record, a complaint that had been filed 291 00:16:30,840 --> 00:16:33,600 Speaker 1: as recently as two thousand fifteen that's spelled out all 292 00:16:33,680 --> 00:16:37,840 Speaker 1: these extensive allegations of sexual harassment and abuse in the company. 293 00:16:37,960 --> 00:16:40,320 Speaker 1: And it really is just one of the many ways 294 00:16:40,360 --> 00:16:42,840 Speaker 1: in which her persistence has like paid off time and 295 00:16:42,840 --> 00:16:44,760 Speaker 1: time again. Jody, how did you get him to do it? 296 00:16:44,920 --> 00:16:48,800 Speaker 1: I'll tell you the story, Irwin was it at first 297 00:16:48,880 --> 00:16:51,960 Speaker 1: very nervous. He grew a little more comfortable. You know. 298 00:16:52,040 --> 00:16:55,440 Speaker 1: We were meeting late at night in September at the 299 00:16:55,480 --> 00:16:59,000 Speaker 1: restaurant Little Park in Tribeca. I was like, why does 300 00:16:59,040 --> 00:17:01,240 Speaker 1: he want to meet in the middle of Tribeca in 301 00:17:01,280 --> 00:17:03,600 Speaker 1: a fancy restaurant, But that was his spot. We always 302 00:17:03,600 --> 00:17:06,680 Speaker 1: met in the same place. And he was telling me 303 00:17:06,840 --> 00:17:08,920 Speaker 1: a lot. But this is what sources do, right, the 304 00:17:09,240 --> 00:17:11,600 Speaker 1: very few of them sort of like tell the story 305 00:17:11,960 --> 00:17:16,320 Speaker 1: in order and we'll know exactly what's relevant and what's 306 00:17:16,320 --> 00:17:18,919 Speaker 1: not relevant. So he's telling us all this different stuff 307 00:17:18,960 --> 00:17:20,840 Speaker 1: and and every few nights I'm meeting with him. I'm 308 00:17:20,880 --> 00:17:23,320 Speaker 1: taking everything back to Megan, and we're by day we're 309 00:17:23,320 --> 00:17:26,320 Speaker 1: trying to track it down, nail it down, and I 310 00:17:26,359 --> 00:17:29,320 Speaker 1: mean a lot of it is checking out. And there 311 00:17:29,400 --> 00:17:32,439 Speaker 1: was this memo that he had mentioned a few times, 312 00:17:32,480 --> 00:17:34,439 Speaker 1: but I didn't know how significant it was. And he 313 00:17:34,440 --> 00:17:37,679 Speaker 1: had read me a few lines from the memo and 314 00:17:37,760 --> 00:17:40,960 Speaker 1: I we just thought that there might be more there. 315 00:17:41,359 --> 00:17:43,919 Speaker 1: So I'm sitting there and we're having our glasses of 316 00:17:43,960 --> 00:17:46,320 Speaker 1: wine and I said to him, will you pull up 317 00:17:46,359 --> 00:17:48,960 Speaker 1: that memo on your phone again? So he pulls it 318 00:17:49,040 --> 00:17:52,840 Speaker 1: up on his phone and I really, I think I 319 00:17:52,920 --> 00:17:55,920 Speaker 1: just wanted to like maybe get a couple of words 320 00:17:56,000 --> 00:17:59,119 Speaker 1: right or something. And he looks at me and he says, 321 00:18:00,800 --> 00:18:02,600 Speaker 1: I'm going to go to the little boy's room now, 322 00:18:02,880 --> 00:18:05,680 Speaker 1: and he hands me his phone. So it's like he's 323 00:18:05,720 --> 00:18:09,920 Speaker 1: telling me, without explicitly telling me, take this document now. 324 00:18:09,960 --> 00:18:12,440 Speaker 1: You never want to forward it to yourself, right, because 325 00:18:12,480 --> 00:18:15,120 Speaker 1: that's going to leave a digital trail from his email 326 00:18:15,200 --> 00:18:18,480 Speaker 1: address to mine. So instead I'm you know, like sitting 327 00:18:18,520 --> 00:18:21,120 Speaker 1: there at the bar. You know, when you have these 328 00:18:21,160 --> 00:18:24,119 Speaker 1: moments in life when you're saying to your phone. Don't 329 00:18:24,160 --> 00:18:26,399 Speaker 1: have a technical problem, like, please, I just need my 330 00:18:26,440 --> 00:18:30,400 Speaker 1: phone to work for like the next ten minutes. Yeah, exactly. So, 331 00:18:30,400 --> 00:18:32,600 Speaker 1: so his phone is in my lap and I'm holding 332 00:18:32,640 --> 00:18:35,919 Speaker 1: my phone over my lap and I'm careful to scroll 333 00:18:36,040 --> 00:18:39,120 Speaker 1: so I don't like miss any lines, and I'm screenshotting 334 00:18:39,680 --> 00:18:42,840 Speaker 1: every page of this memo, but I still don't know 335 00:18:42,880 --> 00:18:45,000 Speaker 1: what's in it because I have to work really fast 336 00:18:45,160 --> 00:18:47,560 Speaker 1: because I'm trying to, like, you know, be all smooth. 337 00:18:48,000 --> 00:18:51,040 Speaker 1: So anyway, he comes back from the bathroom a minute later, 338 00:18:51,160 --> 00:18:54,199 Speaker 1: and his phone is sitting and waiting for him on 339 00:18:54,280 --> 00:18:56,800 Speaker 1: his chair, and you know, we go through the rest 340 00:18:56,840 --> 00:19:00,600 Speaker 1: of our drink state. But the second he leaves, we 341 00:19:00,640 --> 00:19:02,399 Speaker 1: say goodbye and he's like, I'll walk you out, and 342 00:19:02,440 --> 00:19:03,960 Speaker 1: I'm like, you know what, I'm gonna go to the 343 00:19:04,040 --> 00:19:06,439 Speaker 1: ladies room. So I go to the ladies room and 344 00:19:06,520 --> 00:19:09,880 Speaker 1: that's when I send the memo to Megan and Rebecca, 345 00:19:10,320 --> 00:19:13,200 Speaker 1: and then I walk outside in a hail cab and 346 00:19:13,280 --> 00:19:17,120 Speaker 1: that's when I actually read the mamo. And the woman 347 00:19:17,160 --> 00:19:19,960 Speaker 1: who wrote it, Lauren O'Connor, on top of being a 348 00:19:20,040 --> 00:19:24,080 Speaker 1: very talented junior executive, she's a powerful writer. And so 349 00:19:24,160 --> 00:19:27,640 Speaker 1: that memo said things like the balance of power at 350 00:19:27,680 --> 00:19:32,360 Speaker 1: this company is Harvey Weinstein ten me zero. So it's 351 00:19:32,359 --> 00:19:36,040 Speaker 1: sort of like we've been piecing together these allegations from 352 00:19:36,480 --> 00:19:39,679 Speaker 1: you know, twenty five or thirty year time period, and 353 00:19:39,720 --> 00:19:44,320 Speaker 1: remember the earliest allegation, the earliest settlement we've documented that 354 00:19:44,359 --> 00:19:48,040 Speaker 1: Weinstein is paid is think about how early that is. 355 00:19:49,440 --> 00:19:54,640 Speaker 1: Lauren O'Connor. She's writing this memo in twenty and yet 356 00:19:54,640 --> 00:19:57,800 Speaker 1: it's describing some of the same things the women had 357 00:19:57,800 --> 00:20:02,120 Speaker 1: experienced in in the late nineties, Like, for example, she's 358 00:20:02,119 --> 00:20:05,520 Speaker 1: describing an incident at the Peninsula in Beverly Hills. Well, 359 00:20:05,640 --> 00:20:08,360 Speaker 1: Ashley Judd and Gwyneth Paltrow have told us about being 360 00:20:08,359 --> 00:20:12,359 Speaker 1: sexually harassed at the Peninsula in Beverly Hills by Weinstein, 361 00:20:12,600 --> 00:20:15,240 Speaker 1: but their stories take place in the mid to late nineties. 362 00:20:15,359 --> 00:20:17,919 Speaker 1: So it's like this sense of how long has this 363 00:20:17,920 --> 00:20:21,960 Speaker 1: guy been doing this and we've got to publish this 364 00:20:22,160 --> 00:20:26,800 Speaker 1: story because nobody else has stopped him. Um, both of you, 365 00:20:26,960 --> 00:20:30,080 Speaker 1: if I'm not mistaken, you both have a daughter. Jody 366 00:20:30,160 --> 00:20:32,280 Speaker 1: has to have you have one. You have two daughters, 367 00:20:32,400 --> 00:20:34,639 Speaker 1: and I have an older daughter it was three, and 368 00:20:34,680 --> 00:20:37,680 Speaker 1: I have a younger daughter who's six, and my wife 369 00:20:37,680 --> 00:20:39,600 Speaker 1: and I from time to time think about what kind 370 00:20:39,640 --> 00:20:43,200 Speaker 1: of a world will they interact with in the future. 371 00:20:44,400 --> 00:20:47,920 Speaker 1: We think about that question every day, and the confounding 372 00:20:48,040 --> 00:20:51,720 Speaker 1: thing is that everything's changed and nothing's changed, and I 373 00:20:51,800 --> 00:20:56,120 Speaker 1: still don't have the answer. What hasn't changed. The laws, 374 00:20:56,359 --> 00:21:00,800 Speaker 1: the structures, the systems, the govern how we all behave 375 00:21:01,359 --> 00:21:05,119 Speaker 1: they just haven't changed. It like the difficulty of reporting 376 00:21:05,160 --> 00:21:08,640 Speaker 1: one of these incidents. Maybe there's a little less social stigma, 377 00:21:08,920 --> 00:21:12,280 Speaker 1: but it's not fundamentally different than it was two years ago. 378 00:21:12,800 --> 00:21:15,520 Speaker 1: Federal sexual harassment laws in this country are so weak. 379 00:21:15,760 --> 00:21:18,600 Speaker 1: If you're a freelancer, you're not covered. If you work 380 00:21:18,680 --> 00:21:21,760 Speaker 1: for a workplace that has fewer than fifteen employees, you're 381 00:21:21,800 --> 00:21:23,960 Speaker 1: not covered. So there have been a couple of adjustments 382 00:21:24,000 --> 00:21:26,360 Speaker 1: to the law on the state level, but like the 383 00:21:26,480 --> 00:21:31,000 Speaker 1: fundamental rules of our society have barely changed. So with 384 00:21:31,119 --> 00:21:33,840 Speaker 1: respect to your question about kids, I think about our kids, 385 00:21:33,880 --> 00:21:36,479 Speaker 1: and I think about grandkids, and I think, you know, 386 00:21:36,560 --> 00:21:38,200 Speaker 1: what are we going to tell them about this period? 387 00:21:38,200 --> 00:21:41,639 Speaker 1: Are we going to say? You know, wow, Megan and 388 00:21:41,720 --> 00:21:44,680 Speaker 1: I published this story and found ourselves, you know, at 389 00:21:44,680 --> 00:21:48,760 Speaker 1: ground zero of a historic shift, and and and we 390 00:21:48,800 --> 00:21:51,240 Speaker 1: can see the effects of that, you know, to this day, 391 00:21:51,280 --> 00:21:54,239 Speaker 1: and it really was a window of change. Or are 392 00:21:54,280 --> 00:21:56,000 Speaker 1: we going to say, well, you know, it's sort of 393 00:21:56,080 --> 00:21:58,080 Speaker 1: kind of an extraordinary period and a whole bunch of 394 00:21:58,119 --> 00:22:02,600 Speaker 1: men were fired, but you know, not that much fundamentally shifted. 395 00:22:02,840 --> 00:22:05,639 Speaker 1: And then will the kids and grandkids say, oh, yeah 396 00:22:05,680 --> 00:22:08,480 Speaker 1: that you know, sexual harassment. It still happens at my 397 00:22:08,560 --> 00:22:12,119 Speaker 1: workplace all the time. It happens at my you know, 398 00:22:12,320 --> 00:22:15,960 Speaker 1: the restaurant where I wait tables during the summer. Or 399 00:22:16,680 --> 00:22:21,040 Speaker 1: are they gonna look at us and say, oh my god, 400 00:22:21,240 --> 00:22:24,960 Speaker 1: it used to be okay for male bosses to hit 401 00:22:25,119 --> 00:22:29,840 Speaker 1: on younger female subordinates who they held workplace power over. 402 00:22:30,400 --> 00:22:32,600 Speaker 1: It used to be okay in a restaurant for the 403 00:22:32,640 --> 00:22:37,919 Speaker 1: male manager to grope the waitress. Wasn't right, like like 404 00:22:37,960 --> 00:22:42,760 Speaker 1: they they may they may say, wait a second. People 405 00:22:42,800 --> 00:22:46,280 Speaker 1: in Hollywood, like they just joked about the casting couch 406 00:22:46,320 --> 00:22:48,720 Speaker 1: and they just accepted it as a routine part of 407 00:22:48,720 --> 00:22:51,600 Speaker 1: their business. And will they feel a kind of shock 408 00:22:51,680 --> 00:22:54,320 Speaker 1: at at what used to be tolerated. Well, I want 409 00:22:54,320 --> 00:22:56,840 Speaker 1: to get to that in a minute, about the willingness factor, 410 00:22:56,880 --> 00:23:00,440 Speaker 1: where not that they're willing. But but men believe sometimes 411 00:23:00,440 --> 00:23:03,880 Speaker 1: that they're willing. Megan, tell me about your crystal Ball 412 00:23:03,960 --> 00:23:06,080 Speaker 1: into the future. If you will, Mike crystal Ball in 413 00:23:06,160 --> 00:23:10,080 Speaker 1: the future. I mean, you know, we are so uh, 414 00:23:10,359 --> 00:23:13,120 Speaker 1: we are so immersed in the reporting process a day 415 00:23:13,160 --> 00:23:15,160 Speaker 1: in and day out, you know, the first day right 416 00:23:15,200 --> 00:23:17,800 Speaker 1: after the Weinstein story broke and it started to take off, 417 00:23:17,800 --> 00:23:21,639 Speaker 1: I mean, we had never anticipated that. Two nights before 418 00:23:22,240 --> 00:23:24,200 Speaker 1: we went to you know, we went to publish, Jody 419 00:23:24,240 --> 00:23:26,520 Speaker 1: and I actually stepped back. We've been working around the clock, 420 00:23:26,520 --> 00:23:29,639 Speaker 1: and we actually shared a cab back to Brooklyn at 421 00:23:29,640 --> 00:23:32,159 Speaker 1: about one o'clock in the morning, and in that silent moment, 422 00:23:32,240 --> 00:23:34,920 Speaker 1: turned to each other and said, do you think anybody's 423 00:23:34,920 --> 00:23:37,280 Speaker 1: going to read this story? Does anybody know who Harvey 424 00:23:37,320 --> 00:23:40,000 Speaker 1: Weinstein is? Is anybody going to care? So? I think 425 00:23:40,000 --> 00:23:42,200 Speaker 1: if you're looking for like signs that we were predictors 426 00:23:42,200 --> 00:23:48,720 Speaker 1: of the future, that's certainly not not the case. But yeah, 427 00:23:48,760 --> 00:23:50,280 Speaker 1: I mean I think that I I you know, I 428 00:23:50,359 --> 00:23:52,800 Speaker 1: think that it's not I would say that that, you know, 429 00:23:52,840 --> 00:23:55,359 Speaker 1: I think that you're actually asking the question in a 430 00:23:55,400 --> 00:23:58,560 Speaker 1: pretty within a pretty narrow framework. I think that we've 431 00:23:58,640 --> 00:24:02,840 Speaker 1: found among are sort of male friends and colleagues that 432 00:24:02,920 --> 00:24:06,879 Speaker 1: they are uh, just as concerned and in parents of sons, 433 00:24:07,040 --> 00:24:10,200 Speaker 1: I think are just as invested in this issue. And 434 00:24:10,720 --> 00:24:13,680 Speaker 1: I think that you talked to parents of daughters and sons, 435 00:24:13,720 --> 00:24:16,000 Speaker 1: they will tell you that they really want to make 436 00:24:16,040 --> 00:24:19,360 Speaker 1: sure that we are able to figure out emerge from 437 00:24:19,359 --> 00:24:22,879 Speaker 1: this moment with some uh sort of agreed upon standards 438 00:24:22,880 --> 00:24:25,960 Speaker 1: that make sure that everybody is treated fairly and receives 439 00:24:25,960 --> 00:24:29,439 Speaker 1: adequate protections, and that that that it's a safe world 440 00:24:29,560 --> 00:24:32,000 Speaker 1: for you know, the girls and the boys. And I've 441 00:24:32,040 --> 00:24:34,880 Speaker 1: got three boys, a four year old, a three year old, 442 00:24:34,880 --> 00:24:37,439 Speaker 1: and a one year old, and I want to go 443 00:24:37,520 --> 00:24:39,240 Speaker 1: off on that tangent, but it's just it's it's really 444 00:24:39,240 --> 00:24:42,760 Speaker 1: remarkable how this plays into that I'm saying to my son, going, 445 00:24:42,760 --> 00:24:45,480 Speaker 1: you know, don't touch anybody without their permission. That's the 446 00:24:45,480 --> 00:24:47,520 Speaker 1: story I don't boy with. But but I was filming 447 00:24:47,520 --> 00:24:51,720 Speaker 1: a documentary film with Jimmy Toback, who is a dear 448 00:24:51,760 --> 00:24:54,320 Speaker 1: friend of mine, and in terms of sexual harassment, there's 449 00:24:54,320 --> 00:25:00,000 Speaker 1: a whole pile of hundreds of women have a kisdom. 450 00:25:00,440 --> 00:25:02,640 Speaker 1: Jimmy is one of those people who believe that if 451 00:25:02,680 --> 00:25:05,800 Speaker 1: my batting average is ten percent. I need to hit 452 00:25:05,840 --> 00:25:08,439 Speaker 1: on a thousand women. I'm not excusing his behavior. But 453 00:25:08,520 --> 00:25:12,480 Speaker 1: Jimmy somebody who I had this deep intellectual exploration with 454 00:25:12,520 --> 00:25:14,639 Speaker 1: about films we were going to do. We developed a 455 00:25:14,640 --> 00:25:17,199 Speaker 1: bunch of projects together. There were very few people in 456 00:25:17,280 --> 00:25:19,639 Speaker 1: the world you could have the kind of conversation about 457 00:25:19,640 --> 00:25:21,840 Speaker 1: movie making you could have with Jimmy. And he was 458 00:25:21,880 --> 00:25:23,800 Speaker 1: a very dear, dear friend of mine. And then all 459 00:25:23,840 --> 00:25:25,840 Speaker 1: this stuff comes up where they say he actually physically 460 00:25:25,880 --> 00:25:29,919 Speaker 1: assaulted um Selma Blair. Now, when someone is your friend, 461 00:25:30,600 --> 00:25:33,280 Speaker 1: you tend to give it some credence. I am the 462 00:25:33,320 --> 00:25:36,119 Speaker 1: south Shore Long Island, middle class white boy that I 463 00:25:36,119 --> 00:25:39,800 Speaker 1: am someone who your friend, right, I mean, like, look, 464 00:25:39,800 --> 00:25:42,639 Speaker 1: if your best friend was convicted of murder, would you 465 00:25:42,720 --> 00:25:45,080 Speaker 1: visit that person in jail? That's like a it's a 466 00:25:45,160 --> 00:25:48,840 Speaker 1: legit moral conundra. I think plenty of us are friends 467 00:25:48,840 --> 00:25:51,840 Speaker 1: with people who have done terrible things wrong and like, 468 00:25:51,960 --> 00:25:55,240 Speaker 1: and that's an interesting decision, right, like do his sins 469 00:25:55,280 --> 00:25:59,800 Speaker 1: against other people? There are arguments for and against that 470 00:26:00,000 --> 00:26:03,959 Speaker 1: eventing you from having a friendship with him. But but 471 00:26:04,000 --> 00:26:06,760 Speaker 1: you know, Harvey Winston is different. I never did business 472 00:26:06,760 --> 00:26:09,600 Speaker 1: with Harvey. You know, years ago, people would say blah 473 00:26:09,600 --> 00:26:12,560 Speaker 1: bladeh blah and Oscars and this and the wine Stein 474 00:26:12,600 --> 00:26:17,160 Speaker 1: Company and Mirramax any raped Rose McGowan, like everybody knew that. 475 00:26:17,880 --> 00:26:19,679 Speaker 1: So what do you think explains that? Why do you 476 00:26:19,720 --> 00:26:23,040 Speaker 1: think that people in your world were able to accept that? First? 477 00:26:23,080 --> 00:26:26,399 Speaker 1: About this talking point? But I think that that's I 478 00:26:26,400 --> 00:26:28,760 Speaker 1: I myself would not use that word, except because when 479 00:26:28,800 --> 00:26:31,439 Speaker 1: I did the movie The Aviator that Harvey produced, I 480 00:26:31,480 --> 00:26:34,320 Speaker 1: didn't even know he was involved. Scorsese himself called me, 481 00:26:34,960 --> 00:26:37,199 Speaker 1: and when Marty calls you, you go. I arrived on 482 00:26:37,240 --> 00:26:39,760 Speaker 1: the set in Montreal to discover that Harvey was one 483 00:26:39,800 --> 00:26:42,119 Speaker 1: of the producer, but he was never there. So I 484 00:26:42,200 --> 00:26:45,080 Speaker 1: do highlight the fact that that accept is not the word. 485 00:26:45,240 --> 00:26:48,800 Speaker 1: I mean, nobody that I know accepted anything about him. 486 00:26:48,840 --> 00:26:51,480 Speaker 1: I was so curious about something you said a minute ago, 487 00:26:51,960 --> 00:26:54,720 Speaker 1: which is when you were talking about Toback. You did 488 00:26:54,760 --> 00:26:57,879 Speaker 1: something really interesting, which is you kept alternating between the 489 00:26:57,920 --> 00:27:00,720 Speaker 1: past and the present in terms of talking about whether 490 00:27:00,760 --> 00:27:02,439 Speaker 1: he is your friend or not. You said he was 491 00:27:02,520 --> 00:27:04,760 Speaker 1: my friend, he has my friend. He was my friend, 492 00:27:04,800 --> 00:27:07,199 Speaker 1: he has my friend, So would you still call him 493 00:27:07,200 --> 00:27:10,199 Speaker 1: your friend? I'm just curious, Yes, I don't know that 494 00:27:10,240 --> 00:27:13,280 Speaker 1: he's sexually assaulted women in auditions. I don't know that. 495 00:27:13,520 --> 00:27:16,520 Speaker 1: I don't know that well. But to go back to 496 00:27:16,640 --> 00:27:18,840 Speaker 1: your sort of distinction of you know, it sounds like 497 00:27:18,840 --> 00:27:22,720 Speaker 1: you're paying close attention to this single criminal allegation and 498 00:27:22,800 --> 00:27:25,239 Speaker 1: his denial of a crime. No, I'm only saying that 499 00:27:25,280 --> 00:27:28,000 Speaker 1: there's gradations here, and I think that what Weinsteine did 500 00:27:28,480 --> 00:27:30,359 Speaker 1: was far where and he had the power to do. 501 00:27:30,640 --> 00:27:33,520 Speaker 1: There are also gradations of the victims, right, I mean 502 00:27:33,560 --> 00:27:35,639 Speaker 1: that in the case of wine Stein, he was allegedly 503 00:27:35,680 --> 00:27:39,719 Speaker 1: praying on well known famous actresses as well as you know, 504 00:27:39,760 --> 00:27:41,920 Speaker 1: lowly assistants in his companies. You know, the type of 505 00:27:41,960 --> 00:27:44,040 Speaker 1: twenty three year olds that you wouldn't recognize if you 506 00:27:44,080 --> 00:27:45,800 Speaker 1: pass them on the street, you know who for the 507 00:27:45,840 --> 00:27:50,080 Speaker 1: most part, had sort of disappeared without a trace, without 508 00:27:50,280 --> 00:27:54,040 Speaker 1: you know, ever becoming public before this. And so the 509 00:27:54,119 --> 00:27:57,240 Speaker 1: question there, I think for you is some blair aside 510 00:27:57,800 --> 00:28:00,159 Speaker 1: these dozens of other women who have come forward. They 511 00:28:00,200 --> 00:28:03,760 Speaker 1: may not be famous, but you know, I think it's 512 00:28:03,760 --> 00:28:09,280 Speaker 1: still worth learning those allegations. And here's here's what I 513 00:28:09,280 --> 00:28:12,560 Speaker 1: think would be a really interesting exercise. The James Toback 514 00:28:12,600 --> 00:28:15,160 Speaker 1: coverage was mainly done by the l. A. Times. That's 515 00:28:15,160 --> 00:28:18,600 Speaker 1: my impression. I would go back and read those stories 516 00:28:18,680 --> 00:28:20,960 Speaker 1: and listen to the women because it sounds like you 517 00:28:21,040 --> 00:28:23,680 Speaker 1: may have missed something really important, which is the sort 518 00:28:23,680 --> 00:28:28,800 Speaker 1: of audition factor involved. Then bring charges against me. Well, 519 00:28:28,880 --> 00:28:33,520 Speaker 1: remember you're saying charges, which is a criminal word. Um 520 00:28:33,560 --> 00:28:36,919 Speaker 1: any civil cases brought against Jimmy by those women, I 521 00:28:36,920 --> 00:28:39,360 Speaker 1: don't know. I don't We'd have to go back and check, 522 00:28:39,360 --> 00:28:40,840 Speaker 1: because again it was it was it was the l 523 00:28:40,880 --> 00:28:43,520 Speaker 1: A Times reporting, not ours. But I guess what I'm 524 00:28:43,560 --> 00:28:48,400 Speaker 1: saying is I think it's worth really listening to the 525 00:28:48,440 --> 00:28:54,239 Speaker 1: women's experiences. Even with the stories that are allegations of 526 00:28:54,280 --> 00:28:58,200 Speaker 1: sexual harassment and not violent sexual assault, there's a harm 527 00:28:58,280 --> 00:29:01,360 Speaker 1: that's real, even if it is and physical, which has 528 00:29:01,400 --> 00:29:03,280 Speaker 1: to do with work, and it can play out over 529 00:29:03,360 --> 00:29:06,440 Speaker 1: a very long time. Let's talk about Weinstein, because those 530 00:29:06,440 --> 00:29:08,800 Speaker 1: are you know, those are the victims we have interviewed 531 00:29:08,840 --> 00:29:12,520 Speaker 1: the most thoroughly. When you talk to women who have 532 00:29:12,640 --> 00:29:17,160 Speaker 1: really terrible stories of sexual harassment by Weinstein, part of 533 00:29:17,280 --> 00:29:19,560 Speaker 1: what a lot of them feel now as a sense 534 00:29:19,600 --> 00:29:23,760 Speaker 1: of loss and grief because even though you know he's 535 00:29:23,800 --> 00:29:29,440 Speaker 1: been outed and even though Um, even though there's a 536 00:29:29,480 --> 00:29:33,720 Speaker 1: sense of sort of like um communal accountability towards him. 537 00:29:33,760 --> 00:29:36,200 Speaker 1: Even though the world now knows about so many of 538 00:29:36,240 --> 00:29:39,160 Speaker 1: these women's stories, what a lot of them say is 539 00:29:39,160 --> 00:29:42,160 Speaker 1: is that you know, I can never be twenty three 540 00:29:42,240 --> 00:29:45,400 Speaker 1: years old again, I can never go audition for those movies. 541 00:29:45,440 --> 00:29:48,680 Speaker 1: I can never have my first job in film again. 542 00:29:49,040 --> 00:29:51,320 Speaker 1: And my whole life is different because of the way 543 00:29:51,360 --> 00:29:54,240 Speaker 1: he treated me. And there's really nothing that can never 544 00:29:54,320 --> 00:29:57,640 Speaker 1: change that. Um. Jodi, how long have you worked at 545 00:29:57,640 --> 00:30:00,320 Speaker 1: the Times? I've been there a long time. I'm like 546 00:30:00,320 --> 00:30:04,280 Speaker 1: fifteen years. And how would you describe the sexual harassment 547 00:30:04,320 --> 00:30:09,440 Speaker 1: policies of the Times? Do you nobody has sexually harassed 548 00:30:09,440 --> 00:30:12,440 Speaker 1: anybody at the Times. I'll tell you what, Alec I 549 00:30:12,520 --> 00:30:15,160 Speaker 1: wouldn't because that is not my job and that is 550 00:30:15,200 --> 00:30:19,000 Speaker 1: not Megan's job. The Times has like a whole hr apparatus, 551 00:30:19,040 --> 00:30:21,680 Speaker 1: and all these editors and leaders who deal what do 552 00:30:21,680 --> 00:30:25,080 Speaker 1: you find satisfactories? Yeah, because, first of all, listen, everybody 553 00:30:25,120 --> 00:30:27,080 Speaker 1: has been affected by me too. I don't think there's 554 00:30:27,080 --> 00:30:29,360 Speaker 1: an organization including we're sitting here at w n y C, 555 00:30:29,520 --> 00:30:32,840 Speaker 1: which has had its own issues over time. Every organization 556 00:30:32,920 --> 00:30:34,920 Speaker 1: is affected by this. It's close to all of us. 557 00:30:34,960 --> 00:30:37,959 Speaker 1: There have been issues at the Times, but Megan and 558 00:30:38,000 --> 00:30:40,200 Speaker 1: I have been very careful not to get involved in 559 00:30:40,240 --> 00:30:43,040 Speaker 1: any of them because we've got to do our jobs, 560 00:30:43,080 --> 00:30:45,800 Speaker 1: and our jobs. You know, we're not the internal cops 561 00:30:45,840 --> 00:30:49,240 Speaker 1: at the Times. Our job is to uncover this information. 562 00:30:49,440 --> 00:30:52,440 Speaker 1: You know, you can't solve a problem. You can, but 563 00:30:52,520 --> 00:30:54,920 Speaker 1: do you see maybe there's there's an odd component to 564 00:30:54,960 --> 00:30:58,440 Speaker 1: that where you want me to make sure I examine 565 00:30:58,600 --> 00:31:02,120 Speaker 1: Jimmy Kotobac in relation to Weinstein as carefully as I should, 566 00:31:02,480 --> 00:31:04,640 Speaker 1: But you don't think you need to examine the Times 567 00:31:04,680 --> 00:31:08,440 Speaker 1: as carefully as mirror Max or Weinstein films. No, because 568 00:31:08,440 --> 00:31:10,719 Speaker 1: we like I mean, I was just curious about your 569 00:31:10,760 --> 00:31:12,800 Speaker 1: personal relationship with him, in your friendship, So I was 570 00:31:12,840 --> 00:31:15,280 Speaker 1: really I was I was really, I was just really 571 00:31:15,320 --> 00:31:18,080 Speaker 1: asking a question. But I don't think you know work context. 572 00:31:18,200 --> 00:31:21,040 Speaker 1: Megan and I bear there are people at the Times 573 00:31:21,080 --> 00:31:25,280 Speaker 1: who bear actual responsibility for making sure that we have 574 00:31:25,480 --> 00:31:29,520 Speaker 1: sound policies for preventing and addressing this kind of behavior. 575 00:31:29,760 --> 00:31:33,560 Speaker 1: That is not Megan or I. Would you have a 576 00:31:33,600 --> 00:31:37,920 Speaker 1: comment about that, Megan, Yeah, I mean there have been 577 00:31:37,960 --> 00:31:39,760 Speaker 1: a variety of cases that have played out at The 578 00:31:39,760 --> 00:31:43,480 Speaker 1: New York Times that have been investigated, and some have 579 00:31:43,640 --> 00:31:47,040 Speaker 1: resulted in people leaving the Times, um some have resulted 580 00:31:47,080 --> 00:31:49,400 Speaker 1: in people being placed on probation. Like it is what 581 00:31:49,520 --> 00:31:51,600 Speaker 1: what's clear to us, and we don't know the details 582 00:31:51,600 --> 00:31:55,080 Speaker 1: of those cases, but we know, like we there is 583 00:31:55,120 --> 00:32:00,400 Speaker 1: evidence of accountability playing out throughout our own organization. And 584 00:32:00,520 --> 00:32:02,320 Speaker 1: you know what we can say beyond that is just 585 00:32:02,440 --> 00:32:05,200 Speaker 1: that when it comes to the reporting on sexual harassment 586 00:32:05,240 --> 00:32:08,520 Speaker 1: and sexual assault at the New York Times, that you know, 587 00:32:08,560 --> 00:32:12,640 Speaker 1: we have had the support of editors and beyond straight 588 00:32:12,720 --> 00:32:15,000 Speaker 1: up to the very top of the organization. You know, 589 00:32:15,040 --> 00:32:18,280 Speaker 1: this was not this is not working just by women. 590 00:32:18,360 --> 00:32:21,719 Speaker 1: This is you know, male editors, the you know, male publishers. 591 00:32:21,760 --> 00:32:25,200 Speaker 1: Are investigations straddled the passing of the baton of of 592 00:32:25,480 --> 00:32:29,720 Speaker 1: the publishers. Both men were like one in support of this. 593 00:32:29,960 --> 00:32:32,600 Speaker 1: And and so we you know, we we we feel 594 00:32:32,640 --> 00:32:35,160 Speaker 1: lucky to live to work in an organization that has 595 00:32:35,160 --> 00:32:39,000 Speaker 1: been willing to put so many resources behind this type 596 00:32:39,000 --> 00:32:41,400 Speaker 1: of work. What do you think men now need to 597 00:32:41,480 --> 00:32:45,400 Speaker 1: learn about how to say to you, I'm attracted to you. 598 00:32:45,920 --> 00:32:48,560 Speaker 1: Is that all going to change? Now should it change. Well, listen, 599 00:32:48,560 --> 00:32:52,200 Speaker 1: I think that there's agreement, um that there is a 600 00:32:52,280 --> 00:32:55,600 Speaker 1: hunger for kind of a clearer sense of what the 601 00:32:55,640 --> 00:32:59,080 Speaker 1: guidelines should be in the workplace, but within dating and 602 00:32:59,400 --> 00:33:03,160 Speaker 1: more broadly in relations of men and women. There's no 603 00:33:03,240 --> 00:33:07,000 Speaker 1: question that everybody can have sexually satisfying lives, in romantic 604 00:33:07,040 --> 00:33:10,240 Speaker 1: lives normal while also figuring out how to treat each 605 00:33:10,240 --> 00:33:12,280 Speaker 1: other with respect. And I think that that's you know, 606 00:33:12,480 --> 00:33:14,120 Speaker 1: I think that the worst thing that could happen is 607 00:33:14,120 --> 00:33:16,800 Speaker 1: that people don't talk about these issues. And if they're not, 608 00:33:16,960 --> 00:33:20,120 Speaker 1: whether it's with their kids or their you know, their partners, 609 00:33:20,240 --> 00:33:23,360 Speaker 1: or in the workplace, but in also in these interviews, 610 00:33:23,400 --> 00:33:25,920 Speaker 1: you know, like worst just so grateful that you were 611 00:33:26,000 --> 00:33:29,200 Speaker 1: willing to talk to us about, for example, your relationship 612 00:33:29,200 --> 00:33:31,520 Speaker 1: with Tobac, and like, thank you for engaging with us. 613 00:33:31,560 --> 00:33:33,040 Speaker 1: But that doesn't mean I don't have work to do, 614 00:33:33,120 --> 00:33:35,600 Speaker 1: which you've reminded me of that again. I mean we 615 00:33:35,680 --> 00:33:37,200 Speaker 1: I'm going to go back and read those l A 616 00:33:37,280 --> 00:33:39,320 Speaker 1: Times pieces and I'm going to contact the writer, the 617 00:33:39,400 --> 00:33:42,240 Speaker 1: principal writer of that. See he'll come to the show 618 00:33:42,240 --> 00:33:44,120 Speaker 1: and talk about that. I think that's a great idea. 619 00:33:44,480 --> 00:33:46,440 Speaker 1: I would also just say that I think it's really 620 00:33:46,440 --> 00:33:49,320 Speaker 1: important to recognize that this is really abuse of power. 621 00:33:49,840 --> 00:33:52,520 Speaker 1: This is not just a sort of sexual preference or 622 00:33:52,640 --> 00:33:55,760 Speaker 1: a tool that's being used by unattractive guys because they 623 00:33:55,800 --> 00:33:58,440 Speaker 1: wouldn't otherwise be able to get women's Yeah, that this 624 00:33:58,520 --> 00:34:07,520 Speaker 1: is abusive power. I want to end by saying that 625 00:34:07,560 --> 00:34:10,680 Speaker 1: this was one of the more difficult and on my part, 626 00:34:11,400 --> 00:34:17,160 Speaker 1: least successful interviews I've ever done. Both of these writers 627 00:34:17,320 --> 00:34:20,200 Speaker 1: know their subject, and my own grasp of the me 628 00:34:20,360 --> 00:34:24,520 Speaker 1: too issue is in need of further research. The writer 629 00:34:24,600 --> 00:34:27,880 Speaker 1: they referred to from The l A Times is Glenn Whip, 630 00:34:28,400 --> 00:34:34,480 Speaker 1: and we will surely invite him on in soon. In 631 00:34:34,560 --> 00:34:39,360 Speaker 1: the meantime, the fiction between believe the victim and innocent 632 00:34:39,480 --> 00:34:44,960 Speaker 1: until proven guilty continues. Thanks to Jodie Canter and Megan Tuey. 633 00:34:45,080 --> 00:34:49,040 Speaker 1: I am reminded that we are never done re examining 634 00:34:49,080 --> 00:34:53,040 Speaker 1: this issue and our own relationship to it. Their book 635 00:34:53,040 --> 00:34:57,120 Speaker 1: about their Weinstein reporting and its fallout is called she 636 00:34:57,320 --> 00:35:02,600 Speaker 1: said Out Now from Penguin Press. I'm Alec Baldwin, and 637 00:35:02,760 --> 00:35:04,439 Speaker 1: you're listening to here's the thing