1 00:00:12,280 --> 00:00:14,560 Speaker 1: The high season is not just a poetic phrase but 2 00:00:14,880 --> 00:00:18,720 Speaker 1: a legal designation. Anything two hundred miles off the coast 3 00:00:18,760 --> 00:00:22,360 Speaker 1: of a country is not subject to any specific laws 4 00:00:22,520 --> 00:00:26,079 Speaker 1: or In the United Nations lingo, they're called an area 5 00:00:26,239 --> 00:00:30,640 Speaker 1: beyond national jurisdiction. That's nearly half the Earth's surface, by 6 00:00:30,680 --> 00:00:34,240 Speaker 1: the way, and until recently, there was no legal route 7 00:00:34,280 --> 00:00:37,880 Speaker 1: to protect marine life there. But in March, after nearly 8 00:00:37,960 --> 00:00:42,000 Speaker 1: two decades of negotiations, delegates at a UN meeting agreed 9 00:00:42,000 --> 00:00:45,600 Speaker 1: on a pathway to protect these areas. This came only 10 00:00:45,680 --> 00:00:49,080 Speaker 1: months after a big UN agreement signed in Montreal at 11 00:00:49,120 --> 00:00:53,240 Speaker 1: COP fifteen that, among other goals, aims to protect thirty 12 00:00:53,240 --> 00:00:57,480 Speaker 1: percent of nature by twenty thirty. It feels good to 13 00:00:57,520 --> 00:01:02,960 Speaker 1: hear about this progress, but is only seven years away. 14 00:01:03,080 --> 00:01:05,960 Speaker 1: So it's worth asking how will all of these pledges 15 00:01:06,040 --> 00:01:10,280 Speaker 1: come to fruition and where exactly are we starting from. 16 00:01:10,680 --> 00:01:14,080 Speaker 1: To answer these questions, I have three guests today. I'm 17 00:01:14,120 --> 00:01:17,479 Speaker 1: speaking of Rebecca Shaw, chief scientist at the World Wildlife Fund, 18 00:01:17,640 --> 00:01:20,960 Speaker 1: about how something as broad as biodiversity is measured and 19 00:01:21,000 --> 00:01:24,440 Speaker 1: what the stakes are. Then I'll speak with Monica Medina 20 00:01:24,560 --> 00:01:27,800 Speaker 1: of the US State Department about what can be accomplished 21 00:01:27,840 --> 00:01:30,760 Speaker 1: when the US is not a party to either of 22 00:01:30,800 --> 00:01:34,880 Speaker 1: these treaties. But first, I'm joined by my colleague Eric Roston, 23 00:01:35,000 --> 00:01:38,680 Speaker 1: who attended COP fifteen in Montreal, to talk through the backstory, 24 00:01:39,080 --> 00:01:43,959 Speaker 1: because it feels like all this progress happened overnight, two 25 00:01:44,080 --> 00:01:47,319 Speaker 1: major agreements in four months, but there's more to it 26 00:01:47,360 --> 00:01:54,800 Speaker 1: than that. Eric, Welcome to the show. 27 00:01:54,960 --> 00:01:56,000 Speaker 2: Hi, thanks for having me. 28 00:01:56,320 --> 00:02:00,360 Speaker 1: Now let's start with the basics. What is biodiversity because 29 00:02:00,400 --> 00:02:04,160 Speaker 1: it feels like it's an all encompassing term, like planet 30 00:02:04,400 --> 00:02:05,040 Speaker 1: or life. 31 00:02:05,280 --> 00:02:07,960 Speaker 2: It's a great question. It does seem like one of 32 00:02:08,000 --> 00:02:12,079 Speaker 2: these words that means everything. And it comes out of 33 00:02:12,360 --> 00:02:16,640 Speaker 2: a nineteen ninety two UN treaty called the Convention on 34 00:02:16,720 --> 00:02:23,520 Speaker 2: Biological Diversity that set in place a formal UN process 35 00:02:23,840 --> 00:02:26,680 Speaker 2: by which countries that sign the agreement meet every two 36 00:02:26,760 --> 00:02:29,679 Speaker 2: years and figure out, just like you said, how to 37 00:02:29,720 --> 00:02:33,000 Speaker 2: protect more nature. But it is a real grab bag. 38 00:02:33,200 --> 00:02:37,359 Speaker 2: Biodiversity is not like climate change in a number of ways. 39 00:02:37,760 --> 00:02:41,320 Speaker 2: It is, at least on the most superficial level, much 40 00:02:41,360 --> 00:02:44,359 Speaker 2: more complicated. Climate change is just about basically one number. 41 00:02:44,400 --> 00:02:46,440 Speaker 2: It's like how much CO two is in the atmosphere. 42 00:02:46,919 --> 00:02:52,480 Speaker 2: Biodiversity it's much harder to pin down the metrics for biodiversity. 43 00:02:52,919 --> 00:02:53,720 Speaker 2: There's a lot of them. 44 00:02:54,080 --> 00:02:56,840 Speaker 1: So this big agreement that was signed in Montreal was 45 00:02:56,960 --> 00:03:01,119 Speaker 1: under the Convention on Biological Diversity, which is thirty years 46 00:03:01,160 --> 00:03:03,480 Speaker 1: old a little more than that. Why is it that 47 00:03:03,600 --> 00:03:08,720 Speaker 1: suddenly we have a agreement that aims to protect thirty 48 00:03:08,720 --> 00:03:09,600 Speaker 1: percent of the planet. 49 00:03:09,880 --> 00:03:13,560 Speaker 2: Part of it is coincidence. This Convention on Biological Diversity 50 00:03:14,240 --> 00:03:17,320 Speaker 2: had a really big year in twenty ten, and well, 51 00:03:17,360 --> 00:03:20,280 Speaker 2: that feels like a long time ago. What they did 52 00:03:20,400 --> 00:03:25,079 Speaker 2: was they set up some very ambitious goals for protecting 53 00:03:25,200 --> 00:03:30,560 Speaker 2: nature by twenty twenty, and they failed practically on every mark. 54 00:03:31,160 --> 00:03:34,200 Speaker 2: So by the time twenty twenty rolls around, it was 55 00:03:34,400 --> 00:03:38,320 Speaker 2: time for another big round of commitments. COVID happened and 56 00:03:38,360 --> 00:03:40,800 Speaker 2: the meeting was postponed for a couple of years. So 57 00:03:41,040 --> 00:03:44,880 Speaker 2: the Kunming Montreal meeting in December is the result of 58 00:03:45,080 --> 00:03:49,280 Speaker 2: a two year wait to find successor goals to the 59 00:03:49,280 --> 00:03:51,560 Speaker 2: ones they failed to meet from twenty ten. 60 00:03:52,080 --> 00:03:56,480 Speaker 1: If they failed spectacularly on the twenty ten goals, what 61 00:03:56,760 --> 00:03:59,680 Speaker 1: makes it possible to set a new goal that is 62 00:03:59,720 --> 00:04:03,640 Speaker 1: even more ambitious and why would they be able to 63 00:04:03,640 --> 00:04:04,800 Speaker 1: achieve it this time? Around. 64 00:04:05,120 --> 00:04:07,600 Speaker 2: You put it that way, it really does start to 65 00:04:07,680 --> 00:04:12,360 Speaker 2: sound like the conventional jokey definition of insanity. But a 66 00:04:12,400 --> 00:04:16,000 Speaker 2: lot has changed. One of them is the problem just 67 00:04:16,120 --> 00:04:21,599 Speaker 2: keeps getting worse. Animal populations across ecosystems around the world 68 00:04:21,720 --> 00:04:26,480 Speaker 2: have fallen by seventy percent since nineteen seventy. Now there's 69 00:04:26,760 --> 00:04:30,000 Speaker 2: other things that are very important too, and one of 70 00:04:30,040 --> 00:04:34,400 Speaker 2: them is private sector and government awareness of this problem. 71 00:04:34,720 --> 00:04:38,400 Speaker 2: What's really unique about what's happening these days is that 72 00:04:38,520 --> 00:04:42,200 Speaker 2: parts of the private sector are very, very invested in this. 73 00:04:42,640 --> 00:04:45,800 Speaker 2: They have learned a lot from climate change. By that, 74 00:04:45,920 --> 00:04:48,159 Speaker 2: I mean they have learned about risks that they face 75 00:04:48,960 --> 00:04:52,760 Speaker 2: to their supply change, to their raw materials, to their reputations. 76 00:04:53,120 --> 00:04:57,440 Speaker 2: Messing up this topic, in addition to being just morally horrifying, 77 00:04:57,920 --> 00:05:01,880 Speaker 2: could impede their ability to get investment or even operate. So, 78 00:05:02,160 --> 00:05:04,560 Speaker 2: just as you know, in the last ten years, we've 79 00:05:04,560 --> 00:05:07,880 Speaker 2: seen the rise of the Task Force on Climate Related 80 00:05:07,920 --> 00:05:11,799 Speaker 2: Financial Disclosures, which is a body to help companies understand 81 00:05:11,839 --> 00:05:15,120 Speaker 2: and express their risks they face from climate change. There 82 00:05:15,200 --> 00:05:19,080 Speaker 2: is now a Task Force on Nature Related Financial Disclosures. 83 00:05:19,320 --> 00:05:23,440 Speaker 2: So the Biodiversity Group has really just been cutting and 84 00:05:23,440 --> 00:05:27,600 Speaker 2: pasting a lot of the successful climate initiatives, and what 85 00:05:27,680 --> 00:05:31,720 Speaker 2: that's doing is making the very important discussion of measuring 86 00:05:31,760 --> 00:05:35,680 Speaker 2: in metrics much more nimble. So it's a confluence of 87 00:05:35,760 --> 00:05:38,440 Speaker 2: a lot of different things that are bringing this all 88 00:05:38,480 --> 00:05:40,080 Speaker 2: to a head in the last year. 89 00:05:41,080 --> 00:05:44,119 Speaker 1: My next guest is Rebecca Shaw, who is the chief 90 00:05:44,160 --> 00:05:47,440 Speaker 1: scientist at the World Wildlife Fund, an organization that plays 91 00:05:47,480 --> 00:05:52,200 Speaker 1: an important role in our understanding of biodiversity. Every two years, 92 00:05:52,360 --> 00:05:56,240 Speaker 1: Rebecca's team publishes a report called the LPI, or the 93 00:05:56,320 --> 00:05:59,960 Speaker 1: Living Planet Index. The most recent one shows a sixty 94 00:06:00,120 --> 00:06:05,440 Speaker 1: nine percent decline in monitored vertebrate species since nineteen seventy. 95 00:06:05,600 --> 00:06:09,000 Speaker 1: Restoring biodiversity is a goal in its own right, and 96 00:06:09,120 --> 00:06:12,400 Speaker 1: it can also have positive impacts for the climate. I 97 00:06:12,440 --> 00:06:15,440 Speaker 1: wanted to hear from Rebecca about the significance of these 98 00:06:15,760 --> 00:06:19,640 Speaker 1: un agreements and how they actually can be implemented. My 99 00:06:19,720 --> 00:06:22,920 Speaker 1: first question to Rebecca was simply, how have you seen 100 00:06:22,960 --> 00:06:25,520 Speaker 1: the biodiversity crisis play out in your lifetime? 101 00:06:26,040 --> 00:06:28,560 Speaker 3: Well, in my backyard it would be the monarch butterfly, 102 00:06:29,160 --> 00:06:32,760 Speaker 3: which not very far from my home used to have 103 00:06:32,880 --> 00:06:37,240 Speaker 3: a forest where it would come and overwinter, the entire 104 00:06:37,279 --> 00:06:41,960 Speaker 3: eucalyptus forest would turn orange. There were so many butterflies. 105 00:06:42,080 --> 00:06:45,160 Speaker 3: But with the increase in pesticize use and the decline 106 00:06:45,160 --> 00:06:49,320 Speaker 3: in milkweed abundance because of that herbicide use, they just 107 00:06:49,360 --> 00:06:52,320 Speaker 3: don't exist anymore. In fact, they barely come to the 108 00:06:52,360 --> 00:06:55,800 Speaker 3: eucalyptus forest anymore, and they come one or two at 109 00:06:55,800 --> 00:06:58,680 Speaker 3: a time, and not hundreds of thousands at a time 110 00:06:58,760 --> 00:07:01,800 Speaker 3: like they used to. Certainly, as a scientist, I've been 111 00:07:01,839 --> 00:07:04,920 Speaker 3: watching all the indices that track biodiversity, both at the 112 00:07:05,040 --> 00:07:08,920 Speaker 3: national level and the local level, and of course globally 113 00:07:09,120 --> 00:07:12,520 Speaker 3: decline and decline by a lot. On a personal level, 114 00:07:12,760 --> 00:07:16,240 Speaker 3: you can really see this in your daily life in 115 00:07:16,400 --> 00:07:19,080 Speaker 3: ways that make it a little bit more tangible. No 116 00:07:19,200 --> 00:07:22,400 Speaker 3: more bugs hitting your windshield, You aren't seeing as many 117 00:07:22,440 --> 00:07:25,000 Speaker 3: birds in the spring as you used to. Maybe the 118 00:07:25,040 --> 00:07:28,560 Speaker 3: same bird, just not as many. And of course it's 119 00:07:28,560 --> 00:07:31,760 Speaker 3: harder and harder if you like to go fishing, it's 120 00:07:31,760 --> 00:07:34,600 Speaker 3: harder and harder to find those places to go fishing. 121 00:07:35,000 --> 00:07:38,280 Speaker 1: And because scientists like to measure things, what are top 122 00:07:38,320 --> 00:07:41,280 Speaker 1: line metrics that you use to keep a track of 123 00:07:41,360 --> 00:07:42,560 Speaker 1: biodiversity laws? 124 00:07:42,920 --> 00:07:45,520 Speaker 3: First, just to back up a little bit, biodiversity has 125 00:07:45,680 --> 00:07:49,520 Speaker 3: lots of metrics to track it because there's lots of 126 00:07:49,680 --> 00:07:53,480 Speaker 3: aspects of biodiversity that are really important to people. Sometimes 127 00:07:53,480 --> 00:07:58,000 Speaker 3: we track genetic diversity because we really care about the 128 00:07:58,040 --> 00:08:00,840 Speaker 3: fact that there's lots of different genetics out there to 129 00:08:00,880 --> 00:08:04,840 Speaker 3: be used for medicines and such. Sometimes we track species diversity, 130 00:08:05,320 --> 00:08:08,720 Speaker 3: which is how is this particular animal doing versus this animal, 131 00:08:09,000 --> 00:08:12,800 Speaker 3: And we tracked populations of species across the planet, and 132 00:08:12,840 --> 00:08:16,200 Speaker 3: how are ecosystems doing? And then all the benefits that 133 00:08:16,280 --> 00:08:21,000 Speaker 3: people derived from ecosystems, like clean air, clean water, we 134 00:08:21,080 --> 00:08:23,640 Speaker 3: track that as well. And so one of the ones 135 00:08:23,640 --> 00:08:27,360 Speaker 3: that we track is the LPI, the Living Planet Index, 136 00:08:27,400 --> 00:08:31,400 Speaker 3: which is one that tracks populations of animals thirty two 137 00:08:31,560 --> 00:08:36,560 Speaker 3: thousand populations of over five thousand species globally, and we've 138 00:08:36,600 --> 00:08:45,359 Speaker 3: seen sixty nine percent decline in these populations of animals mammals, fishes, birds, amphibians, 139 00:08:45,400 --> 00:08:49,200 Speaker 3: and reptiles across the globe, which really is an indicator 140 00:08:49,880 --> 00:08:54,559 Speaker 3: that ecosystem health is declining and that nature is unraveling. 141 00:08:55,120 --> 00:08:58,240 Speaker 1: When I think of the overlap of biodiversity and climate change, 142 00:08:58,520 --> 00:09:01,880 Speaker 1: the obvious link to me is forests. The more trees 143 00:09:01,920 --> 00:09:04,360 Speaker 1: there are the more carbon is drawn down out of 144 00:09:04,400 --> 00:09:08,760 Speaker 1: the atmosphere, and that reduces the impact that Greno's gases 145 00:09:08,800 --> 00:09:11,760 Speaker 1: can have on the planet. But what are some of 146 00:09:11,800 --> 00:09:16,720 Speaker 1: the less common examples of how biodiverse ecosystems maintain the climate. 147 00:09:17,080 --> 00:09:19,600 Speaker 3: There's lots of good examples, but I think the one 148 00:09:19,720 --> 00:09:23,319 Speaker 3: that really sparked my imagination, really made me start to 149 00:09:23,360 --> 00:09:27,679 Speaker 3: think differently about diversity and its connection to ecosystem function 150 00:09:27,800 --> 00:09:31,839 Speaker 3: and the things that we really need from ecosystems is 151 00:09:32,120 --> 00:09:34,440 Speaker 3: that the loss of certain kinds of animals in a 152 00:09:34,480 --> 00:09:38,280 Speaker 3: forest can lead to a decline in carbon stored in 153 00:09:38,280 --> 00:09:41,760 Speaker 3: those tropical forests. There is a study in the Atlantic 154 00:09:42,040 --> 00:09:46,120 Speaker 3: Forests of Brazil which looked at what was happening to 155 00:09:46,160 --> 00:09:49,640 Speaker 3: the forest with the two thousand tree species in the 156 00:09:49,640 --> 00:09:53,640 Speaker 3: forest and then the eight hundred animal species when the 157 00:09:53,840 --> 00:09:59,040 Speaker 3: forest started losing its large fruit eating animals such as tapers, 158 00:09:59,440 --> 00:10:04,199 Speaker 3: two can, golden lion, tamarinds due to hunting, illegal trade, 159 00:10:04,240 --> 00:10:06,960 Speaker 3: and habitat loss. And what was happening is that we're 160 00:10:07,040 --> 00:10:11,080 Speaker 3: losing the dispersal of the large seeded trees and therefore 161 00:10:11,120 --> 00:10:15,640 Speaker 3: the composition of the tropical forest was changing dramatically. Now 162 00:10:15,679 --> 00:10:19,440 Speaker 3: the impact of that is really not intuitive. The result 163 00:10:19,480 --> 00:10:23,800 Speaker 3: is it became dominated by smaller trees with softer woods 164 00:10:24,000 --> 00:10:27,760 Speaker 3: that stored less carbon. So you lose the species from 165 00:10:27,880 --> 00:10:33,480 Speaker 3: hunting in illegal trade, and over time you begin to 166 00:10:33,640 --> 00:10:38,320 Speaker 3: lose the carbon storing function of that forest. There's still 167 00:10:38,360 --> 00:10:42,120 Speaker 3: small fruit eating animals that are not targeted by hunters 168 00:10:42,160 --> 00:10:46,040 Speaker 3: and by poachers, small birds and bats and so on, 169 00:10:46,400 --> 00:10:49,360 Speaker 3: and they continue to sperse small seeds, but those small 170 00:10:49,400 --> 00:10:52,600 Speaker 3: seeds are associated with small trees that actually don't store 171 00:10:52,600 --> 00:10:56,760 Speaker 3: as much carbon. And when the researchers looked at what 172 00:10:56,840 --> 00:11:00,199 Speaker 3: is the impact of that mechanism across the world, they 173 00:11:00,200 --> 00:11:03,800 Speaker 3: found that the force in Africa, the Americas, and in 174 00:11:03,880 --> 00:11:07,880 Speaker 3: South Asia, which have high proportions of the animal dispersed 175 00:11:07,920 --> 00:11:12,360 Speaker 3: tree species, consistently show carbon losses as high as twelve percent. 176 00:11:12,760 --> 00:11:17,320 Speaker 3: And that's just one non intuitive mechanism about the way 177 00:11:17,360 --> 00:11:22,200 Speaker 3: biodiversity promotes and sustains carbon storage. And I'm sure there 178 00:11:22,280 --> 00:11:25,000 Speaker 3: are others out there that we are not yet aware of. 179 00:11:25,840 --> 00:11:28,960 Speaker 1: So killing some of these large animals that eat particular 180 00:11:29,000 --> 00:11:32,400 Speaker 1: types of fruit in their seeds is changing the entire 181 00:11:32,920 --> 00:11:36,720 Speaker 1: structure of the forest and even shrinking its ability to 182 00:11:36,800 --> 00:11:39,720 Speaker 1: act as the common saying that it was before the 183 00:11:39,800 --> 00:11:41,439 Speaker 1: hunting and the legal trade began. 184 00:11:41,720 --> 00:11:44,400 Speaker 3: That's right. You pull one kind of animal out of 185 00:11:44,440 --> 00:11:48,160 Speaker 3: that and that changes the dynamics of the system and 186 00:11:48,200 --> 00:11:50,680 Speaker 3: how the system can produce benefits for humans. 187 00:11:51,440 --> 00:11:53,920 Speaker 1: This is a crisis that we need to deal with. 188 00:11:54,240 --> 00:11:56,800 Speaker 1: It is something that has been less talked about, certainly 189 00:11:56,880 --> 00:12:01,480 Speaker 1: than the climate crisis, but they overlap. And delegates from 190 00:12:01,760 --> 00:12:05,600 Speaker 1: over one hundred countries met in Montreal in December at 191 00:12:05,720 --> 00:12:10,679 Speaker 1: the COP fifteen event trying to discuss global biodiversity framework 192 00:12:11,000 --> 00:12:14,160 Speaker 1: that would set goals to try and undo some of 193 00:12:14,200 --> 00:12:17,720 Speaker 1: the damage that we are causing. What happened in December 194 00:12:18,080 --> 00:12:19,280 Speaker 1: in Montreal. 195 00:12:19,120 --> 00:12:23,960 Speaker 3: Yeah, delegates from all over the globe met in Montreal 196 00:12:24,080 --> 00:12:25,679 Speaker 3: to discuss what are we going to do about this 197 00:12:25,720 --> 00:12:30,600 Speaker 3: biodiversity crisis, and they came up with a Global Biodiversity 198 00:12:30,720 --> 00:12:37,280 Speaker 3: Framework which has for arching global goals conservation of biological diversity, 199 00:12:37,520 --> 00:12:42,080 Speaker 3: sustainable use of the components of biological diversity, fair and 200 00:12:42,160 --> 00:12:46,800 Speaker 3: equitable sharing of the benefits of genetic resources, and the 201 00:12:46,840 --> 00:12:50,839 Speaker 3: delivery of adequate resources for implementation. He also had twenty 202 00:12:50,840 --> 00:12:53,760 Speaker 3: three targets. The most important of all the targets and 203 00:12:53,800 --> 00:12:56,760 Speaker 3: the one that you probably heard the most about was 204 00:12:56,880 --> 00:12:59,240 Speaker 3: the thirty by thirty, and the thirty by thirty just 205 00:12:59,320 --> 00:13:04,800 Speaker 3: essentially means is that we will protect, conserve, and manage 206 00:13:04,840 --> 00:13:09,320 Speaker 3: for biodiversity thirty percent of all the land and water, 207 00:13:09,480 --> 00:13:13,560 Speaker 3: so freshwater and oceans by twenty thirty, on our way 208 00:13:13,600 --> 00:13:15,720 Speaker 3: to a twenty to fifty goal where they will be 209 00:13:15,840 --> 00:13:19,079 Speaker 3: conserved effectively and up to fifty percent. 210 00:13:19,440 --> 00:13:22,439 Speaker 1: So thirty by thirty and then fifty by fifty. 211 00:13:22,440 --> 00:13:24,720 Speaker 3: That's right, and achieving the start is going to require 212 00:13:24,760 --> 00:13:29,000 Speaker 3: a doubling of the extent of trustraal area protected and 213 00:13:29,080 --> 00:13:32,440 Speaker 3: conserved areas and a quadrupling of the marine areas designate 214 00:13:32,520 --> 00:13:35,560 Speaker 3: for conservation while ensuring their effective management. So this is 215 00:13:35,679 --> 00:13:39,920 Speaker 3: not a small goal and almost two hundred nations around 216 00:13:39,920 --> 00:13:42,080 Speaker 3: the globe agreed to this. I think that is a 217 00:13:42,120 --> 00:13:45,479 Speaker 3: phenomenal outcome and is a big win for biodiversity. 218 00:13:45,880 --> 00:13:49,760 Speaker 1: So, according to the Protected Planet Report, currently about seventeen 219 00:13:49,920 --> 00:13:52,800 Speaker 1: percent of the world's land is protected and eight percent 220 00:13:52,880 --> 00:13:57,760 Speaker 1: of ocean is protected. What does protected count for? 221 00:13:58,280 --> 00:14:01,240 Speaker 3: Definitely in conservation in the past we've been thinking about 222 00:14:01,320 --> 00:14:04,080 Speaker 3: you take lands or waters and you set up aside 223 00:14:04,080 --> 00:14:07,800 Speaker 3: from human use, and action, and we've definitely found out 224 00:14:07,840 --> 00:14:11,719 Speaker 3: that that is not a way to effectively conserve the 225 00:14:11,760 --> 00:14:14,840 Speaker 3: resources we need to conserve to protect biodiversity over time. 226 00:14:15,280 --> 00:14:18,559 Speaker 3: What we really need to do is better understand how 227 00:14:18,600 --> 00:14:23,080 Speaker 3: to manage different types of uses along a landscape, along 228 00:14:23,160 --> 00:14:28,880 Speaker 3: a spectrum from highly intensive uses to less intensive uses 229 00:14:28,920 --> 00:14:32,360 Speaker 3: that allow for biodiversity to thrive and to deliver the 230 00:14:32,560 --> 00:14:36,880 Speaker 3: services that benefit societies around the globe. We have seventeen 231 00:14:36,920 --> 00:14:40,800 Speaker 3: percent protected in the terrestrial it doesn't mean they're effectively protected, 232 00:14:40,800 --> 00:14:43,120 Speaker 3: so it's really important that we go after that. Effective 233 00:14:43,160 --> 00:14:48,280 Speaker 3: protection and conserved is a whole lot more nuanced than protected. 234 00:14:48,360 --> 00:14:51,880 Speaker 3: It means you can have certain activities like the harvesting 235 00:14:52,240 --> 00:14:56,800 Speaker 3: of certain animals or plants at a certain rate that 236 00:14:57,120 --> 00:14:59,880 Speaker 3: allow for the system to stay intact. You can have 237 00:15:00,080 --> 00:15:03,880 Speaker 3: of people living within those conserved areas and managing the 238 00:15:03,920 --> 00:15:07,400 Speaker 3: systems like lots of indigenous and local communities around the 239 00:15:07,400 --> 00:15:11,240 Speaker 3: globe do. And it also means that you manage them 240 00:15:11,400 --> 00:15:15,440 Speaker 3: actively to get the outcomes in biodiversity and biodiversity benefits 241 00:15:15,480 --> 00:15:18,400 Speaker 3: that you're looking for. And so conserved and protected can 242 00:15:18,440 --> 00:15:20,120 Speaker 3: take a lot of different shapes, and I think it's 243 00:15:20,120 --> 00:15:24,920 Speaker 3: a diversity of mechanisms for delivering on the Biodiversity framework, 244 00:15:25,120 --> 00:15:28,520 Speaker 3: that is really one of its deep strengths because it 245 00:15:28,880 --> 00:15:33,600 Speaker 3: then recognizes and comes to terms with different types of 246 00:15:33,800 --> 00:15:36,200 Speaker 3: communities around the globe are going to have innovations to 247 00:15:36,200 --> 00:15:39,280 Speaker 3: bring to the table that will work within their cultures. 248 00:15:38,880 --> 00:15:41,400 Speaker 1: And all of this will require some level of conservation. 249 00:15:41,760 --> 00:15:45,840 Speaker 1: But conservation has a history of excluding people from areas 250 00:15:45,960 --> 00:15:49,440 Speaker 1: that are theirs. Good example is the Yellowstone National Park, 251 00:15:49,800 --> 00:15:53,520 Speaker 1: a thing of beauty, but that was founded by forcibly 252 00:15:53,600 --> 00:15:58,200 Speaker 1: removing Indigenous people of their land. So are there examples 253 00:15:58,240 --> 00:16:01,720 Speaker 1: that you know off places that have been conserved in 254 00:16:01,760 --> 00:16:05,160 Speaker 1: an inclusive way? And what is it that you've learned 255 00:16:05,160 --> 00:16:07,440 Speaker 1: from those areas that could be applied to other areas. 256 00:16:07,680 --> 00:16:11,400 Speaker 3: Yeah, one of the targets in the Global Biodiversity Framework 257 00:16:11,560 --> 00:16:13,960 Speaker 3: is that all of these efforts be taken in a 258 00:16:13,960 --> 00:16:17,880 Speaker 3: way that are inclusive and equitable, and particularly inclusive and 259 00:16:17,920 --> 00:16:22,560 Speaker 3: equitable with respect to indigenous peoples and local communities. And 260 00:16:22,920 --> 00:16:25,280 Speaker 3: there have been studies just in the past five years, 261 00:16:25,320 --> 00:16:29,680 Speaker 3: another real advancement in our understanding of conservation on the 262 00:16:29,680 --> 00:16:33,280 Speaker 3: globe that have shown that in many ways, the lands 263 00:16:33,280 --> 00:16:37,120 Speaker 3: and the waters that are managed by indigenous peoples and 264 00:16:37,160 --> 00:16:42,520 Speaker 3: local communities have greater biodiversity, deliver greater resources with greater 265 00:16:42,600 --> 00:16:48,200 Speaker 3: certainty over time than those areas which are managed more extractively. 266 00:16:48,640 --> 00:16:52,520 Speaker 3: And so we have seen it's in the Amazon and 267 00:16:52,600 --> 00:16:57,520 Speaker 3: in parts of the Congo and other places where communal activity, 268 00:16:57,680 --> 00:17:01,080 Speaker 3: activity that manages it for the long term benefit for 269 00:17:01,240 --> 00:17:06,160 Speaker 3: multiple generations, can have real biodiversity benefits and real climate benefits. 270 00:17:06,400 --> 00:17:10,000 Speaker 3: And I think that the importance of moving forward with 271 00:17:10,040 --> 00:17:14,480 Speaker 3: the Global Biodiversity Framework and the nature based solutions under 272 00:17:14,480 --> 00:17:18,080 Speaker 3: the Climate Convention is that we are going to places, 273 00:17:18,119 --> 00:17:20,919 Speaker 3: working with those communities to make sure that their values 274 00:17:20,920 --> 00:17:24,320 Speaker 3: are respected, that they get the resources they need, and 275 00:17:24,440 --> 00:17:29,560 Speaker 3: that it not just be a purview of nations or 276 00:17:29,680 --> 00:17:33,760 Speaker 3: of other actors making these things happen, but really taking 277 00:17:33,760 --> 00:17:37,480 Speaker 3: into account in an equitable and a respectful way, what 278 00:17:37,600 --> 00:17:39,840 Speaker 3: indigenous peoples and local communities are delivering. 279 00:17:40,440 --> 00:17:43,840 Speaker 1: Climate change forces some areas of the world to go 280 00:17:43,960 --> 00:17:47,879 Speaker 1: through transitions that are going to mean that some children 281 00:17:47,920 --> 00:17:50,680 Speaker 1: will grow up without ever seeing snow in their own 282 00:17:50,720 --> 00:17:54,840 Speaker 1: backyards when their parents did. And these are just difficult 283 00:17:54,920 --> 00:17:59,439 Speaker 1: things to tell young people when they haven't seen something 284 00:17:59,480 --> 00:18:02,920 Speaker 1: that was beautiful and is now gone. What is your 285 00:18:03,040 --> 00:18:05,480 Speaker 1: best method of being able to talk to young people 286 00:18:05,520 --> 00:18:06,879 Speaker 1: about biodiversity laws. 287 00:18:07,359 --> 00:18:12,239 Speaker 3: Really, for every disaster story or crisis story, when you 288 00:18:12,240 --> 00:18:15,040 Speaker 3: see these kind of slow declining losses over time, we 289 00:18:15,119 --> 00:18:18,480 Speaker 3: call them shifting baselines. So if you're born in nineteen seventy, 290 00:18:18,760 --> 00:18:20,760 Speaker 3: you have a really different baseline than if you're born 291 00:18:20,760 --> 00:18:24,119 Speaker 3: in nineteen ninety or twenty ten, and it's that baseline 292 00:18:24,200 --> 00:18:26,000 Speaker 3: is what you expect of the world. So if you 293 00:18:26,160 --> 00:18:29,640 Speaker 3: come to the world and you've never seen a monarch butterfly, 294 00:18:30,240 --> 00:18:32,159 Speaker 3: you don't expect it, and why would you work to 295 00:18:32,200 --> 00:18:36,160 Speaker 3: have it. The important thing about both climate and biodiversity 296 00:18:36,200 --> 00:18:41,480 Speaker 3: crisis being connected together and getting the kind of platform 297 00:18:41,560 --> 00:18:44,719 Speaker 3: that they both have. Right now, there's so many people 298 00:18:45,000 --> 00:18:48,040 Speaker 3: demanding that we have a stable climate and that we 299 00:18:48,200 --> 00:18:52,280 Speaker 3: be able to return some of those populations of species 300 00:18:52,359 --> 00:18:55,600 Speaker 3: back to the communities where they persisted for so long. 301 00:18:55,880 --> 00:18:58,840 Speaker 3: We're definitely seeing that with a monarch butterfly, and we're 302 00:18:58,840 --> 00:19:01,919 Speaker 3: seeing it with different kinds of species and different kinds 303 00:19:01,920 --> 00:19:05,560 Speaker 3: of ecosystems and habitats around the world. We've seen the 304 00:19:06,119 --> 00:19:11,000 Speaker 3: mountain gorilla in Rwanda is increasing because the community is 305 00:19:11,080 --> 00:19:14,320 Speaker 3: focused on increasing that population because they benefit from it. 306 00:19:14,400 --> 00:19:17,119 Speaker 3: So I think it's really important to young people to 307 00:19:17,160 --> 00:19:21,600 Speaker 3: understand that, yes, we're seeing these declines. Yes it's bad. 308 00:19:21,920 --> 00:19:24,240 Speaker 3: Yes some of them we won't be able to retrieve again, 309 00:19:24,560 --> 00:19:27,760 Speaker 3: but so much of it we can retrieve and restore 310 00:19:28,040 --> 00:19:32,360 Speaker 3: and sustain if we do things fundamentally differently, And they're 311 00:19:32,400 --> 00:19:34,560 Speaker 3: a part of the innovation to make that happen. I've 312 00:19:34,560 --> 00:19:38,280 Speaker 3: been working on bi diversity and climate for thirty years. 313 00:19:38,760 --> 00:19:41,480 Speaker 3: It used to be I knew almost ever a beddy 314 00:19:41,640 --> 00:19:43,480 Speaker 3: working on it because they were all scientists and we 315 00:19:43,520 --> 00:19:45,160 Speaker 3: all went to the same meetings and we all talk 316 00:19:45,200 --> 00:19:48,280 Speaker 3: to each other. Now I couldn't possibly know everybody working 317 00:19:48,320 --> 00:19:51,479 Speaker 3: in these two areas anymore because they're in every single 318 00:19:51,600 --> 00:19:55,960 Speaker 3: kind of discipline, every sector of the economy, everywhere around 319 00:19:56,000 --> 00:19:58,960 Speaker 3: the planet. And so I think there's a lot of hope, 320 00:19:59,160 --> 00:20:01,400 Speaker 3: but it's hoped that it has to be paired with action. 321 00:20:02,640 --> 00:20:06,560 Speaker 1: That was a great conversation. Thank you, Rebecca, Thank you Acshaut. 322 00:20:06,600 --> 00:20:09,120 Speaker 3: I'm really pleased to have had a chance to spend 323 00:20:09,160 --> 00:20:09,960 Speaker 3: time with you today. 324 00:20:13,240 --> 00:20:17,160 Speaker 1: After the break. How is the US contributing to biodiversity protection? 325 00:20:17,920 --> 00:20:20,919 Speaker 1: I speak with Munka Medina, the US Special envoy to 326 00:20:20,960 --> 00:20:36,160 Speaker 1: COP fifteen to find out. Before the break, we heard 327 00:20:36,200 --> 00:20:40,320 Speaker 1: from rebeccah Shaw about her optimism, but there are thorny issues. 328 00:20:40,960 --> 00:20:45,480 Speaker 1: Who will fund all this biodiversity protection, especially in developing 329 00:20:45,480 --> 00:20:50,119 Speaker 1: countries where most of the biodiversity that we can preserve exists. 330 00:20:50,520 --> 00:20:54,119 Speaker 1: This is something my colleague Eric Rosston has been looking into. 331 00:20:54,359 --> 00:20:58,520 Speaker 1: What do experts say about where the Global Biodiversity Framework 332 00:20:58,680 --> 00:20:59,520 Speaker 1: falls shot. 333 00:21:00,119 --> 00:21:04,240 Speaker 2: The central issue is money, and it's almost always the 334 00:21:04,320 --> 00:21:08,720 Speaker 2: central issue. I was at the Global Biodiversity Talks in 335 00:21:08,800 --> 00:21:12,600 Speaker 2: Montreal in December, and I don't want to demean it 336 00:21:12,640 --> 00:21:14,640 Speaker 2: by calling it a script, but like there are patterns 337 00:21:14,680 --> 00:21:18,760 Speaker 2: to these negotiations, and developing countries trying to get the 338 00:21:18,760 --> 00:21:24,000 Speaker 2: most financial aid they can to accomplish these ambitious goals 339 00:21:24,680 --> 00:21:29,280 Speaker 2: is a really powerful hallmark. The other side is just 340 00:21:29,359 --> 00:21:33,400 Speaker 2: trying to define these very large goals. The Biodiversity COP 341 00:21:33,840 --> 00:21:36,439 Speaker 2: was not a place where you go and haggle over 342 00:21:37,000 --> 00:21:40,440 Speaker 2: which hector of Land is going to get this technique 343 00:21:40,480 --> 00:21:43,879 Speaker 2: versus that technique versus that sum of money. It's a 344 00:21:43,920 --> 00:21:48,560 Speaker 2: place where the highest level goals and ambitions are really 345 00:21:48,720 --> 00:21:51,440 Speaker 2: set down in stone and so it's really a lot 346 00:21:51,440 --> 00:21:52,719 Speaker 2: of is very idea driven. 347 00:21:53,000 --> 00:21:54,880 Speaker 1: Is that a problem though? I mean in some way. 348 00:21:54,920 --> 00:21:58,480 Speaker 1: The Paris Agreement, which was signed on by again all 349 00:21:58,520 --> 00:22:03,960 Speaker 1: countries in twenty five, was barely twelve pages long and 350 00:22:05,040 --> 00:22:08,480 Speaker 1: was essentially a bunch of ideas which have taken the 351 00:22:08,560 --> 00:22:12,840 Speaker 1: last eight years to be put into real, detailed legal 352 00:22:12,880 --> 00:22:16,280 Speaker 1: wording of how things will actually play out. So do 353 00:22:16,320 --> 00:22:20,000 Speaker 1: we see the Global Biodiversity Framework signed on in Montreal 354 00:22:20,040 --> 00:22:21,320 Speaker 1: as a starting point? 355 00:22:21,880 --> 00:22:27,359 Speaker 2: Absolutely, this is another consensus driven enterprise, and by definition 356 00:22:27,480 --> 00:22:31,680 Speaker 2: that means there had to be heavy negotiations and compromises 357 00:22:31,720 --> 00:22:35,199 Speaker 2: all around. The flip side of that observation, though, is 358 00:22:35,240 --> 00:22:39,320 Speaker 2: that when you have two hundred nations agreeing on something, 359 00:22:39,680 --> 00:22:44,920 Speaker 2: whatever it is, that becomes an extremely potent document. And 360 00:22:45,359 --> 00:22:50,439 Speaker 2: that potency is clear. It's clear from the agreement reached 361 00:22:50,440 --> 00:22:54,119 Speaker 2: in Montreal that this is a priority now for everyone, 362 00:22:54,600 --> 00:22:58,280 Speaker 2: and the private sector is listening and individual countries are listening. 363 00:22:58,760 --> 00:23:03,160 Speaker 2: As a long time observed of various un processes, there 364 00:23:03,240 --> 00:23:07,960 Speaker 2: is something deeply fundamental and central about soft power. It's 365 00:23:08,040 --> 00:23:11,840 Speaker 2: not like somebody at a cop signs something and then 366 00:23:12,119 --> 00:23:15,879 Speaker 2: agencies around the world execute new kinds of jobs the 367 00:23:15,880 --> 00:23:21,879 Speaker 2: next day. It is this very powerful, undulating, wavelike stream 368 00:23:21,960 --> 00:23:26,080 Speaker 2: of influence that emanates from successful negotiations like this, and 369 00:23:26,119 --> 00:23:30,719 Speaker 2: it is that very fuzzy but critical soft power that 370 00:23:31,040 --> 00:23:35,720 Speaker 2: is what in turn causes people in governments, people in boardrooms, 371 00:23:35,840 --> 00:23:40,159 Speaker 2: people at institutional investors to interpret whatever the agreement is 372 00:23:40,200 --> 00:23:43,760 Speaker 2: for themselves and execute new ways of doing business. 373 00:23:44,960 --> 00:23:48,439 Speaker 1: The US did not sign this momentous agreement because the 374 00:23:48,600 --> 00:23:52,760 Speaker 1: US cannot sign this agreement. The United States is not 375 00:23:52,960 --> 00:23:56,680 Speaker 1: party to the Convention on Biological Diversity that was created 376 00:23:56,720 --> 00:24:00,480 Speaker 1: in nineteen ninety two. However, the Biden administration and chose 377 00:24:00,520 --> 00:24:03,679 Speaker 1: to be involved in this meeting regardless. I had the 378 00:24:03,680 --> 00:24:06,679 Speaker 1: opportunity to speak with Monica Medina, who's the US special 379 00:24:06,920 --> 00:24:09,280 Speaker 1: vote to the talks. I wanted to hear from her 380 00:24:09,359 --> 00:24:12,000 Speaker 1: about what the US can actually do now that it's 381 00:24:12,000 --> 00:24:17,959 Speaker 1: subjected to this fuzzy but critical soft power that Eric described. Monica, 382 00:24:18,040 --> 00:24:18,760 Speaker 1: welcome to the show. 383 00:24:18,920 --> 00:24:21,080 Speaker 4: Thank you very much. It's great to be here. Thank 384 00:24:21,119 --> 00:24:23,800 Speaker 4: you very much for talking about this important topic. 385 00:24:24,200 --> 00:24:24,480 Speaker 3: Now. 386 00:24:24,760 --> 00:24:27,240 Speaker 1: US is just one of two countries that is not 387 00:24:27,520 --> 00:24:31,080 Speaker 1: a part of the UN Convention on Biological Diversity. The 388 00:24:31,200 --> 00:24:34,840 Speaker 1: other country is the Vatican. What were you able to 389 00:24:34,880 --> 00:24:37,840 Speaker 1: achieve without being a party to the convention at the 390 00:24:37,840 --> 00:24:38,800 Speaker 1: COP fifteen meeting. 391 00:24:39,280 --> 00:24:41,480 Speaker 4: Well, we were able to achieve an awful lot because 392 00:24:41,480 --> 00:24:44,760 Speaker 4: we worked in concert with many of the governments who 393 00:24:44,800 --> 00:24:48,280 Speaker 4: are parties. We worked through them and with them to 394 00:24:48,440 --> 00:24:51,320 Speaker 4: achieve the thirty x thirty framework, which had been our 395 00:24:51,359 --> 00:24:54,919 Speaker 4: goal for a long time. The Biden administration fully supports 396 00:24:55,000 --> 00:24:57,679 Speaker 4: that framework, and in fact, the President himself made a 397 00:24:57,720 --> 00:25:01,560 Speaker 4: promise that we would try to achieve that thirty percent 398 00:25:01,720 --> 00:25:05,000 Speaker 4: of lands and waters and the ocean protected by twenty 399 00:25:05,080 --> 00:25:09,280 Speaker 4: thirty goal ourselves domestically, and that we would help other 400 00:25:09,359 --> 00:25:13,119 Speaker 4: countries do the same. So we had always been fully 401 00:25:13,160 --> 00:25:16,879 Speaker 4: committed to the aims of the convention, and particularly because 402 00:25:16,920 --> 00:25:20,800 Speaker 4: we are one of the largest funder of biodiversity in 403 00:25:20,840 --> 00:25:24,720 Speaker 4: the world. At Biodiversity Conservation, we had I think a 404 00:25:24,720 --> 00:25:28,280 Speaker 4: big voice that gave us an opportunity to talk about 405 00:25:28,320 --> 00:25:31,119 Speaker 4: the work that we could do through our contribution to 406 00:25:31,119 --> 00:25:34,960 Speaker 4: the Global Environment Facility and through our work related to 407 00:25:35,000 --> 00:25:37,520 Speaker 4: climate change and nature and biodiversity. 408 00:25:37,640 --> 00:25:41,639 Speaker 1: As the world's largest economy, the US also has impacts 409 00:25:42,080 --> 00:25:46,439 Speaker 1: outside its own borders. Take beef. The US is the 410 00:25:46,480 --> 00:25:51,359 Speaker 1: world's largest consumer of beef and cattle grazing takes a 411 00:25:51,440 --> 00:25:54,160 Speaker 1: huge amount of land, both in the US and abroad 412 00:25:54,200 --> 00:25:57,880 Speaker 1: from where the US imports beef. Do you think there 413 00:25:57,920 --> 00:26:01,120 Speaker 1: need to be constraints put on the amount of beef 414 00:26:01,160 --> 00:26:03,760 Speaker 1: people can consume it if we are to reach these golds? 415 00:26:04,160 --> 00:26:08,280 Speaker 4: Well, I don't want to take away anybody's hamburger. They're 416 00:26:08,359 --> 00:26:12,760 Speaker 4: Cheeseburgers are delicious, But we do understand. I mean, I 417 00:26:12,800 --> 00:26:14,760 Speaker 4: think there are several things we need to think about. 418 00:26:14,800 --> 00:26:16,840 Speaker 4: One of the other things that we are doing in 419 00:26:16,880 --> 00:26:19,560 Speaker 4: the US and other countries are doing are looking at 420 00:26:19,560 --> 00:26:22,959 Speaker 4: the ways that our own consumption patterns and our trade 421 00:26:23,000 --> 00:26:26,760 Speaker 4: patterns might be actually driving deforestation in other countries. So 422 00:26:26,760 --> 00:26:29,679 Speaker 4: we're trying to account for that and figure out, Okay, 423 00:26:30,040 --> 00:26:32,720 Speaker 4: are there policy changes that we can make that help 424 00:26:33,400 --> 00:26:37,720 Speaker 4: to mitigate or to minimize that kind of thing, And 425 00:26:38,080 --> 00:26:40,800 Speaker 4: we and other developed nations are looking at that now. 426 00:26:40,840 --> 00:26:43,800 Speaker 4: The EU has just done a similar study. The other 427 00:26:43,880 --> 00:26:46,200 Speaker 4: thing I think we need to think about as a 428 00:26:46,240 --> 00:26:50,439 Speaker 4: planet is food waste. You know, we waste an awful 429 00:26:50,480 --> 00:26:53,120 Speaker 4: lot of food in this world, and if we could 430 00:26:53,600 --> 00:26:56,520 Speaker 4: do less of that, we would have less methane escaping 431 00:26:56,520 --> 00:26:59,960 Speaker 4: into the atmosphere from landfills in all of these areas. 432 00:27:00,119 --> 00:27:02,520 Speaker 4: I think we have to really work hard to cut 433 00:27:02,560 --> 00:27:05,280 Speaker 4: down the amount of things that we just dispose of 434 00:27:05,320 --> 00:27:08,679 Speaker 4: the way. We don't think about how much the footprint 435 00:27:08,720 --> 00:27:12,080 Speaker 4: we have on the planet for using resources and then 436 00:27:12,119 --> 00:27:16,040 Speaker 4: disposing of them without thinking about the waste that we're causing. 437 00:27:16,400 --> 00:27:20,200 Speaker 1: There was a lot of parallel being drawn between trying 438 00:27:20,240 --> 00:27:24,880 Speaker 1: to tackle the climate crisis and tackle the biodiversity crisis, 439 00:27:25,160 --> 00:27:28,200 Speaker 1: to the extent where many called what happened in Montreal 440 00:27:28,280 --> 00:27:31,880 Speaker 1: the Paris Agreement for Nature, and the parallels do work 441 00:27:31,920 --> 00:27:35,280 Speaker 1: to some extent. One very good example is the Paris 442 00:27:35,320 --> 00:27:39,560 Speaker 1: Agreement is very clear on transferring sums of money from 443 00:27:39,680 --> 00:27:44,240 Speaker 1: rich countries to developing countries to help them meet these goals. 444 00:27:44,280 --> 00:27:48,720 Speaker 1: Because developed countries have for centuries exploited their natural resources 445 00:27:48,760 --> 00:27:52,560 Speaker 1: but also the natural resources of colonies or other countries 446 00:27:53,040 --> 00:27:55,680 Speaker 1: and have gotten rich on the back of that. Now 447 00:27:55,800 --> 00:27:58,600 Speaker 1: developing countries are in the position of being able to 448 00:27:58,720 --> 00:28:02,160 Speaker 1: use those resources for their own development, but are now 449 00:28:02,200 --> 00:28:07,040 Speaker 1: being restricted by these necessary global agreements. So what is 450 00:28:07,080 --> 00:28:10,520 Speaker 1: it that the Biden administration is doing to actually transfer 451 00:28:10,960 --> 00:28:14,880 Speaker 1: money to developing countries to help them with biodiversity goals. 452 00:28:15,280 --> 00:28:18,040 Speaker 4: Well, I will say I was at both cops and 453 00:28:18,440 --> 00:28:22,440 Speaker 4: I think we saw at the Biodiversity cop a real 454 00:28:22,520 --> 00:28:26,280 Speaker 4: effort by the Global Environment Facility, which is the main 455 00:28:26,359 --> 00:28:30,400 Speaker 4: funder of biodiversity per se in the world, the main 456 00:28:30,600 --> 00:28:34,080 Speaker 4: multilateral development bank, promised to change the way it does 457 00:28:34,119 --> 00:28:36,960 Speaker 4: business in order to make it easier for those countries 458 00:28:37,320 --> 00:28:40,280 Speaker 4: who have so much biodiversity to be able to get 459 00:28:40,360 --> 00:28:44,360 Speaker 4: funding to keep it in place and not have it 460 00:28:44,400 --> 00:28:48,640 Speaker 4: be developed. So I think that was a really important experience. 461 00:28:48,800 --> 00:28:52,000 Speaker 4: What the US government is doing is funding biodiversity. We 462 00:28:52,080 --> 00:28:56,360 Speaker 4: have huge programs at USAID that do biodiversity work in 463 00:28:56,680 --> 00:29:00,520 Speaker 4: countries that are really in sore need of it. Just 464 00:29:00,760 --> 00:29:05,360 Speaker 4: this past year increased dramatically our contribution to the Global 465 00:29:05,440 --> 00:29:08,920 Speaker 4: Environment Facility, and we are the single largest contributor to 466 00:29:08,960 --> 00:29:13,720 Speaker 4: the Global Environment Facility, which helps many organizations secretariats that 467 00:29:13,800 --> 00:29:16,000 Speaker 4: do the work on a day to day basis. And 468 00:29:16,040 --> 00:29:20,680 Speaker 4: we tagged half of our contribution to biodiversity and nature, 469 00:29:20,720 --> 00:29:23,280 Speaker 4: so we kind of earmarked it, if you will, so 470 00:29:23,320 --> 00:29:27,000 Speaker 4: that it will be used for biodiversity and conservation. But 471 00:29:27,160 --> 00:29:29,000 Speaker 4: on top of that, I think we have to be 472 00:29:29,280 --> 00:29:33,959 Speaker 4: pushing for private sector donors, and we need to leverage 473 00:29:34,360 --> 00:29:37,360 Speaker 4: great projects in the right places because we know that 474 00:29:37,600 --> 00:29:40,320 Speaker 4: there are some parts of the world whose biodiversity is 475 00:29:40,360 --> 00:29:43,560 Speaker 4: still relatively intact, and we need to keep it that way, 476 00:29:43,760 --> 00:29:45,960 Speaker 4: and we need to make it worth their while to 477 00:29:46,040 --> 00:29:46,800 Speaker 4: keep it that way. 478 00:29:47,040 --> 00:29:49,960 Speaker 1: And it certainly sounds great that the US is the 479 00:29:50,040 --> 00:29:55,000 Speaker 1: largest contributor to the global environment facility, but we have 480 00:29:55,040 --> 00:29:57,240 Speaker 1: to remember the context here, which is the US is 481 00:29:57,280 --> 00:30:00,440 Speaker 1: the largest economy in the world, and it has to 482 00:30:00,480 --> 00:30:04,120 Speaker 1: be the largest contributor to these funds. What the US 483 00:30:04,280 --> 00:30:06,920 Speaker 1: tends to fail at, which is true certainly in the 484 00:30:06,920 --> 00:30:10,800 Speaker 1: Climate Fund, is that it doesn't even reach its potential 485 00:30:11,000 --> 00:30:13,920 Speaker 1: off how much it needs to contribute towards those funds. 486 00:30:13,960 --> 00:30:16,719 Speaker 1: So the Climate Fund, the US needed to contribute as 487 00:30:16,760 --> 00:30:19,960 Speaker 1: much as forty billion dollars. It's not even gotten close 488 00:30:20,040 --> 00:30:23,680 Speaker 1: to the eleven billion dollars that the Biden administration wants 489 00:30:23,680 --> 00:30:27,000 Speaker 1: from Congress. So there's a long way to go in 490 00:30:27,320 --> 00:30:32,480 Speaker 1: making equity work in both climate and nature. What is 491 00:30:32,520 --> 00:30:35,520 Speaker 1: it that you have to do internally for the politics 492 00:30:35,520 --> 00:30:39,920 Speaker 1: to align so that funds can be given to developing countries. 493 00:30:40,040 --> 00:30:43,640 Speaker 4: Well, I think we need to actually help create this 494 00:30:43,960 --> 00:30:49,080 Speaker 4: understanding in our Congress of how important biodiversity and nature is, 495 00:30:49,160 --> 00:30:52,080 Speaker 4: and we need to look for those co benefits. We 496 00:30:52,360 --> 00:30:55,320 Speaker 4: have I think a lot of good support there, but 497 00:30:55,360 --> 00:30:59,320 Speaker 4: we need to keep going. I don't rest, I really 498 00:31:00,400 --> 00:31:02,520 Speaker 4: I get up every day trying to think about how 499 00:31:02,760 --> 00:31:05,600 Speaker 4: can I do more? What more can I do. I'm 500 00:31:05,640 --> 00:31:08,960 Speaker 4: always excited when I see members of our Congress go 501 00:31:09,120 --> 00:31:14,200 Speaker 4: to Africa and see the benefits of biodiversity conservation there. 502 00:31:14,720 --> 00:31:17,600 Speaker 4: I think that's a huge way to help. And so 503 00:31:18,200 --> 00:31:20,560 Speaker 4: I can tell you this administration is determined to do 504 00:31:20,640 --> 00:31:23,600 Speaker 4: it and determined to be smart about it by using 505 00:31:23,600 --> 00:31:26,240 Speaker 4: the best science to figure out where can we get 506 00:31:26,280 --> 00:31:30,200 Speaker 4: the best benefits for both and that to me is 507 00:31:30,360 --> 00:31:31,360 Speaker 4: sort of the sweet spot. 508 00:31:31,520 --> 00:31:35,239 Speaker 1: But do you think that ability is inhibited by the 509 00:31:35,280 --> 00:31:38,120 Speaker 1: fact that the US isn't part of the Convention on 510 00:31:38,200 --> 00:31:41,920 Speaker 1: Biological Diversity. Do you feel there's a need for the 511 00:31:42,040 --> 00:31:46,760 Speaker 1: US government to convince Congress to become part of this 512 00:31:46,960 --> 00:31:48,040 Speaker 1: international treaty. 513 00:31:48,480 --> 00:31:51,200 Speaker 4: Well, we are a member of the High Ambition Coalition 514 00:31:51,440 --> 00:31:55,320 Speaker 4: for Nature and People, which was the coalition of countries 515 00:31:55,320 --> 00:31:59,320 Speaker 4: that were the drivers behind achieving the thirty by thirty framework, 516 00:31:59,400 --> 00:32:03,040 Speaker 4: and I think our role is clear you said it. 517 00:32:03,120 --> 00:32:05,960 Speaker 4: We have a responsibility. We know it. We're stepping up 518 00:32:06,040 --> 00:32:08,240 Speaker 4: to it. Do I wish we were a member of 519 00:32:08,280 --> 00:32:12,040 Speaker 4: the Convention shore, But do I think that we will 520 00:32:12,320 --> 00:32:15,680 Speaker 4: continue to work very hard to meet the goals. The 521 00:32:15,720 --> 00:32:19,360 Speaker 4: President said we want to achieve thirty by thirty, so 522 00:32:19,440 --> 00:32:22,240 Speaker 4: we know that's our directive here in the federal government 523 00:32:22,280 --> 00:32:24,520 Speaker 4: to make that happen. I also know he said we 524 00:32:24,560 --> 00:32:27,720 Speaker 4: want to help other countries do the same. That's my job, 525 00:32:28,080 --> 00:32:31,040 Speaker 4: so I spend a lot of time going out trying 526 00:32:31,040 --> 00:32:33,880 Speaker 4: to figure out where are the best places, which governments 527 00:32:33,880 --> 00:32:37,040 Speaker 4: can we work with, Where is the need the greatest, 528 00:32:37,120 --> 00:32:39,760 Speaker 4: How do we work with our colleagues at USAID, Where 529 00:32:39,800 --> 00:32:42,200 Speaker 4: are they doing things? Where are the gaps. We spent 530 00:32:42,280 --> 00:32:44,720 Speaker 4: a lot of time, for example, last summer in the 531 00:32:44,720 --> 00:32:49,520 Speaker 4: Pacific Islands trying to help them. They are obviously important 532 00:32:49,520 --> 00:32:52,880 Speaker 4: for biodiversity in the ocean, really important. That's some of 533 00:32:52,920 --> 00:32:56,520 Speaker 4: the most pristine areas in the ocean that remain. There 534 00:32:56,560 --> 00:32:59,800 Speaker 4: are coral reefs there that are really vital. So we've 535 00:32:59,840 --> 00:33:04,280 Speaker 4: been working hard with them on their ocean parks, if 536 00:33:04,320 --> 00:33:07,600 Speaker 4: you will, and trying to find funding for permanence for 537 00:33:07,880 --> 00:33:11,000 Speaker 4: ocean parks, which is a whole new area, so we're 538 00:33:11,080 --> 00:33:13,680 Speaker 4: constantly pushing the envelope. 539 00:33:13,920 --> 00:33:15,360 Speaker 1: Thank you. That was a great conversation. 540 00:33:15,680 --> 00:33:16,080 Speaker 4: Thank you. 541 00:33:23,960 --> 00:33:26,960 Speaker 1: It's great to see rapid progress on protecting nature in 542 00:33:27,000 --> 00:33:29,800 Speaker 1: the last few months, but the agreements are only great 543 00:33:30,080 --> 00:33:33,080 Speaker 1: if they lead to action. The way the global economy 544 00:33:33,120 --> 00:33:36,360 Speaker 1: is set up, it continues to undervalue nature, which needs 545 00:33:36,400 --> 00:33:41,320 Speaker 1: to be corrected quickly. Thanks for listening to Zero. If 546 00:33:41,360 --> 00:33:43,680 Speaker 1: you enjoyed this episode, please share it with the bird 547 00:33:43,720 --> 00:33:47,360 Speaker 1: watcher in your life. Zero's producer is Oscar Boyd and 548 00:33:47,440 --> 00:33:50,960 Speaker 1: senior producer is Christine Driskell. Our theme music is by 549 00:33:51,000 --> 00:33:56,760 Speaker 1: Wonderly Special Thanks this week to Mobarrow, Anna Maazarakis, Stacey Wong, 550 00:33:57,280 --> 00:34:14,200 Speaker 1: Eric Rosston, and Kira bindram i'm Akshatrati back next week.