WEBVTT - #386 Jason Flom with Kristine Bunch 0:00:00.120 --> 0:00:03.160 We released the harrowing story of Christine Bunch back in 0:00:03.240 --> 0:00:06.400 August twenty twenty. I had a chance to sit down 0:00:06.440 --> 0:00:09.360 with her in person at the twenty twenty three Innocence 0:00:09.400 --> 0:00:13.440 Network Conference in Phoenix, Arizona. And for those who don't know, 0:00:13.760 --> 0:00:16.840 the Innocence Network Conference is a gathering of the innocence 0:00:16.880 --> 0:00:19.279 community from all over the country and even the world, 0:00:20.200 --> 0:00:25.520 ex hoonneries, advocates, lawyers, and folks like doctor Nicki Ali Jackson, 0:00:25.720 --> 0:00:28.800 who was in large part responsible for getting a compensation 0:00:28.920 --> 0:00:32.600 statute passed in Indiana, an effort to which Christine Bunch 0:00:32.800 --> 0:00:36.400 lent a huge helping hand. Now, last we spoke, Christine 0:00:36.479 --> 0:00:40.320 hadn't even received compensation yet, and she was also working 0:00:40.360 --> 0:00:44.600 with her own organization, Just Is for just Us. So 0:00:44.760 --> 0:00:47.600 much has happened since then, and well, I'm just going 0:00:47.680 --> 0:00:50.600 to let her tell you. What do you up to now, Christine. 0:00:50.840 --> 0:00:53.720 I am still on Speaker's Bureau for the Innocence Project 0:00:53.720 --> 0:00:56.800 in New York, so I travel around doing speaking engagements. 0:00:56.960 --> 0:01:00.840 I am the outreach coordinator for Interrogating Justice, and so 0:01:00.920 --> 0:01:05.920 we're providing vetted resources and information on your legal rights 0:01:05.959 --> 0:01:09.200 to everybody in every stage of the legal system, not 0:01:09.520 --> 0:01:13.400 just the exonerated. And in my spare time, I'm working 0:01:13.400 --> 0:01:17.120 with the Illinois Innocence Project because we are doing police training, 0:01:17.319 --> 0:01:21.160 and that police training just went mandatory and statewide for 0:01:21.280 --> 0:01:23.040 every police academy in Illinois. 0:01:24.160 --> 0:01:27.280 I mean, that's a full dance card right there, and 0:01:27.319 --> 0:01:28.560 you do it all with a smile on your face, 0:01:28.560 --> 0:01:31.720 which is incredible. Also, Christine, I'm going to brag about 0:01:31.760 --> 0:01:35.920 you for a second. It was Christine's case that, when 0:01:35.959 --> 0:01:39.160 brought to the attention of the governor, led to the 0:01:39.240 --> 0:01:43.240 signing of a bill that established compensation for exoneries in 0:01:43.319 --> 0:01:46.280 the state of Indiana. So yeah, you have had a 0:01:46.319 --> 0:01:51.400 profound impact on so many people and including me. So 0:01:51.680 --> 0:01:53.600 what else? What do you do for fun? Christine? 0:01:53.880 --> 0:01:58.720 I really love pedicures, especially if they serve cocktails while 0:01:58.720 --> 0:01:59.880 you're getting your pedicure. 0:02:00.160 --> 0:02:01.200 I mean that's boss. 0:02:01.880 --> 0:02:05.520 And tattoos, and of course playing with my dogs because 0:02:05.520 --> 0:02:09.560 I have two beautiful Siberian huskies that make every day perfect. 0:02:09.720 --> 0:02:10.520 What are their names? 0:02:10.880 --> 0:02:12.200 Piper and Paxton? 0:02:12.840 --> 0:02:16.880 Amazing? And how do people find out more about what 0:02:16.919 --> 0:02:18.560 you're doing if they want to support it? Is there 0:02:18.600 --> 0:02:20.640 a website they can go to? Is there a link 0:02:20.680 --> 0:02:21.200 what is there. 0:02:21.600 --> 0:02:25.760 You can go to Interrogating Justice dot org and connect 0:02:25.800 --> 0:02:27.960 with us and find ways that you can help. If 0:02:27.960 --> 0:02:30.840 your justice impacted, come for help. We want to hear 0:02:30.880 --> 0:02:33.200 from you, We want to serve you. We want to 0:02:33.200 --> 0:02:37.520 make transition into and out of the system easier for 0:02:37.639 --> 0:02:40.240 not only the individual, but their families as well, because 0:02:40.280 --> 0:02:44.400 families are so impacted. And you can also make yourself 0:02:44.440 --> 0:02:47.120 more aware of what's going on the system by listening 0:02:47.160 --> 0:02:50.880 to the Wrongful Conviction podcast with Jason plom Ah. 0:02:51.040 --> 0:02:56.600 Yay, thank You. In the summer of nineteen ninety five, 0:02:56.840 --> 0:02:59.560 twenty one year old single mom Christine Bunch was living 0:02:59.600 --> 0:03:02.480 in a train in Greensburg, Indiana, with her three year 0:03:02.520 --> 0:03:06.520 old son Tony. In the early morning hours of July thirtieth, 0:03:06.560 --> 0:03:10.079 an electrical fire began between the roof and the ceiling tiles. 0:03:10.440 --> 0:03:12.880 When the fire caused one of the ceiling tiles to 0:03:12.960 --> 0:03:16.600 fall in Tony's bedroom, a cloud of carbon monoxide gas 0:03:16.919 --> 0:03:20.760 killed the little boy before the fire even could. Christine 0:03:20.800 --> 0:03:24.720 awoke in a carbon monoxide haze, desperately trying to save Tony. 0:03:25.280 --> 0:03:28.760 After failed attempts at extinguishing the fire, she ran for help. 0:03:29.440 --> 0:03:33.120 Then she smashed Tony's bedroom window, but it was too late. 0:03:33.520 --> 0:03:39.920 She was barefoot, homeless, and deep in despair. Arson investigator 0:03:40.040 --> 0:03:43.560 Brian Frank used what is widely now known as junk 0:03:43.640 --> 0:03:48.040 science to point the blame for Tony's death squarely at Christine. 0:03:48.400 --> 0:03:51.400 So six days after losing her three year old boy 0:03:51.600 --> 0:03:55.400 and nearly everything she ever had, Christine lost her freedom 0:03:55.560 --> 0:03:59.760 as well. With no potential alibi or eyewitnesses, the state 0:04:00.080 --> 0:04:04.120 easily sealed Christine's fate with the testimony of Brian Frank 0:04:04.320 --> 0:04:08.600 and ATF forensic analyst William Cannard. Christine gave birth to 0:04:08.640 --> 0:04:11.240 her son, Trent, just a few months after being sent 0:04:11.280 --> 0:04:14.560 to prison, and a decade passed before her attorney and 0:04:14.640 --> 0:04:17.320 a team from the Center on Wrongful Convictions at Northwestern 0:04:17.400 --> 0:04:22.320 University uncovered an egregious Brady violation and blatantly false testimony, 0:04:22.880 --> 0:04:27.640 bringing Christine after seventeen years, one month, and sixteen days 0:04:27.680 --> 0:04:48.000 behind bars. This is wrongful conviction with Jason flam Welcome 0:04:48.040 --> 0:04:51.279 back to wrongful conviction with Jason flawm that's me, of course, 0:04:51.320 --> 0:04:53.560 And today you're going to hear a story that's as 0:04:53.600 --> 0:04:57.640 heartbreaking and tragic as it was preventable and it's a 0:04:57.680 --> 0:05:01.039 remarkable look inside the systemic flaw as well as human 0:05:01.120 --> 0:05:05.920 errors that lead to wrongful convictions. And in this particular case, 0:05:05.960 --> 0:05:08.680 we're going to be telling the story and hearing the 0:05:08.720 --> 0:05:13.159 story of one of my absolute favorite human beings, a 0:05:13.160 --> 0:05:16.840 personal hero of mine, who is doing amazing, amazing things 0:05:16.839 --> 0:05:20.080 in the world right now, today and every day. And 0:05:20.160 --> 0:05:24.240 so I am thrilled and honored to have with us 0:05:24.240 --> 0:05:26.400 on the show today, Christine. 0:05:26.000 --> 0:05:28.160 Bunch, Thank you so much. I'm happy to be. 0:05:28.120 --> 0:05:31.720 Here and with Christine as someone whose name you'll probably recognize, 0:05:31.839 --> 0:05:35.839 Ron Safer. Ron is a former US attorney turned corporate 0:05:35.920 --> 0:05:40.359 lawyer turned justice fighter, and you'll recognize him because he 0:05:40.520 --> 0:05:43.920 was a huge part of the Exoneration of Julie Ray, 0:05:44.279 --> 0:05:47.080 an episode that I'll never forget and I hope if 0:05:47.160 --> 0:05:48.840 you haven't heard it, that you'll go back and take 0:05:48.880 --> 0:05:51.599 a listen. Anyway, Ron, welcome back. 0:05:52.120 --> 0:05:54.120 My pleasure to be here. Thank you, Jason. 0:05:54.480 --> 0:05:57.560 So let's get right into it. Christine, you grew up 0:05:57.600 --> 0:05:59.360 in Indiana, right I did. 0:06:00.120 --> 0:06:04.080 Things took a crazy turn when my parents divorced, but 0:06:04.160 --> 0:06:06.960 for the most part I was happy and it was good. 0:06:07.520 --> 0:06:12.240 Now at the time of this unimaginable tragedy. You were 0:06:13.279 --> 0:06:16.719 just a young mother living in a trailer, working hard, 0:06:16.720 --> 0:06:19.680 going to school, just starting your Life's just twenty one 0:06:19.760 --> 0:06:20.279 years old. 0:06:20.200 --> 0:06:23.279 Right, that's correct. I was working and going to school, 0:06:24.120 --> 0:06:26.640 and I had a beautiful three year old son named Tony. 0:06:27.320 --> 0:06:30.839 And then the worst nightmare that any parent can possibly 0:06:30.920 --> 0:06:34.120 have or wake up to in a cold sweat, and 0:06:34.279 --> 0:06:36.240 some of us probably have had that experience, but it 0:06:36.360 --> 0:06:40.320 actually happened to you, and Ron, can you tell us 0:06:40.400 --> 0:06:43.920 about that awful morning of June thirtieth, nineteen ninety five. 0:06:44.080 --> 0:06:49.160 What happened was Christine and Tony had gone to sleep 0:06:49.360 --> 0:06:53.040 together on a couch in the living room area of 0:06:53.080 --> 0:06:58.279 the trailer. Before Christine woke up, Tony had moved to 0:06:58.360 --> 0:07:01.000 the front room, which was a separate room from the 0:07:01.040 --> 0:07:09.760 living room. Christine awoke to a sound and a small fire. 0:07:10.840 --> 0:07:16.800 She was disoriented, but she saw the small fire and 0:07:17.200 --> 0:07:20.720 she tried to put it out with a pillow and 0:07:20.840 --> 0:07:25.240 couldn't do that, so she tried to smother the fire 0:07:25.360 --> 0:07:30.800 with a blanket and that didn't work either. Carbon monoxide 0:07:31.160 --> 0:07:37.120 is intoxicating. Christine was undoubtedly affected by this carbon monoxide. 0:07:37.160 --> 0:07:41.320 She's trying to put out the fire. She can't find 0:07:41.680 --> 0:07:45.400 the fire extinguisher. She knows where the fire extinguisher is, 0:07:45.480 --> 0:07:49.560 she can't find it. So by that time, the fire 0:07:49.680 --> 0:07:53.720 had grown into a wall between her and Tony and 0:07:53.800 --> 0:07:57.160 she could not get to him. So she frantically went 0:07:57.280 --> 0:08:00.240 out of the trailer, tried to get help, and then 0:08:00.440 --> 0:08:03.960 tried to break the window into the front room so 0:08:04.000 --> 0:08:07.880 that she could get to Tony. But it was too late, 0:08:08.680 --> 0:08:10.120 and Tony had perished. 0:08:11.680 --> 0:08:15.600 It's impossible to even conceive of the horror and the 0:08:15.640 --> 0:08:18.280 panic in a time like that, even if you didn't 0:08:18.320 --> 0:08:21.920 have kids, like waking up to a fire. Christine, what 0:08:21.960 --> 0:08:25.680 are your memories of that awful night now twenty five 0:08:25.720 --> 0:08:26.200 years ago. 0:08:27.400 --> 0:08:29.320 I think the thing that sits with me the most 0:08:29.360 --> 0:08:33.360 is it was just normal. I came home from school, 0:08:33.640 --> 0:08:37.320 and I got Tony from the babysitter, and we went 0:08:37.360 --> 0:08:42.320 home and we cooked, and I think we watched some 0:08:42.440 --> 0:08:45.760 TV and did some laundry, and we fell asleep. I'd 0:08:45.760 --> 0:08:48.480 read him a story and he wasn't feeling really well, 0:08:48.840 --> 0:08:51.960 and we fell asleep on the couch under the air conditioner, 0:08:52.840 --> 0:08:58.120 and everything just seemed normal. You didn't realize that you 0:08:58.160 --> 0:09:01.280 were going to wake up in your whole world would 0:09:01.280 --> 0:09:02.520 be turned upside down. 0:09:03.280 --> 0:09:08.600 Yeah, I mean, your whole world was really destroyed at 0:09:08.600 --> 0:09:13.120 a time when the community and the system should have 0:09:13.200 --> 0:09:18.240 been coming to help you in every conceivable way. Instead, 0:09:19.200 --> 0:09:23.240 you were exposed to and victimized by the worst that 0:09:23.400 --> 0:09:26.000 the system and our society has to offer. And it's 0:09:26.040 --> 0:09:30.560 so important that you're here now because this arson quote 0:09:30.640 --> 0:09:33.440 unquote science that they used in order to frame you 0:09:33.600 --> 0:09:37.960 and wrongfully convict you for a crime that never even 0:09:38.040 --> 0:09:41.160 happened is something that we need to focus on because 0:09:41.200 --> 0:09:45.559 we need awareness among everyone because someday, you, the listener, 0:09:45.600 --> 0:09:48.319 may find yourself on a jury and you may be 0:09:48.440 --> 0:09:51.520 presented with this same sort of junk science. 0:09:52.120 --> 0:09:59.280 So fire investigation was an apprentice art. They were what 0:09:59.360 --> 0:10:04.400 would were arded as common knowledge and industry standards that 0:10:04.440 --> 0:10:10.400 were passed down from generation to generation. Virtually none of 0:10:10.440 --> 0:10:17.280 those conventional wisdom were true, and when tested by scientific principles, 0:10:17.400 --> 0:10:22.920 they were all debunked. Unfortunately that came too late for Christine. 0:10:23.720 --> 0:10:27.760 And this starts with a fire investigator named Brian Frank. 0:10:28.120 --> 0:10:31.880 So what Frank did was the day of this fire, 0:10:32.160 --> 0:10:37.120 and keep in mind, this trailer was completely incinerated he 0:10:37.679 --> 0:10:42.120 comes into the trailer and just plucks things out of 0:10:42.360 --> 0:10:48.120 thin air. He says, Oh, this, this is a burn 0:10:48.320 --> 0:10:53.679 pattern on the floor. That's evidence of a liquid accelerant 0:10:54.040 --> 0:10:59.120 by gasoline. Ooh, there's a V pattern on the wall. 0:10:59.679 --> 0:11:04.719 That is, fire burns up in a V pattern. And therefore, 0:11:05.320 --> 0:11:09.320 because there are two of these, there were two points 0:11:09.320 --> 0:11:14.320 of origin. A normal accidental fire will have one point 0:11:14.360 --> 0:11:18.080 of origin. Sometimes if a fire is intentionally set, it 0:11:18.160 --> 0:11:22.640 will have two points of origin. Says Oops, here the 0:11:22.679 --> 0:11:28.480 fire burned down. That is a sign of a liquid accelerant. 0:11:28.800 --> 0:11:32.520 For all of these reasons, I conclude this was not 0:11:32.920 --> 0:11:37.640 an accidental fire. This was intentionally set because, as you 0:11:37.679 --> 0:11:41.880 said at the beginning, Jason, unlike many crimes like a 0:11:42.120 --> 0:11:46.960 robbery or a fraud or a murder, the question in 0:11:47.040 --> 0:11:51.480 an arson is was a crime even committed? And upon 0:11:51.640 --> 0:11:56.439 that threshold question rests the lives of hundreds of people, 0:11:57.080 --> 0:11:58.239 including Christine. 0:11:59.080 --> 0:12:02.800 Here's what's at absolutely nuts is that to become a 0:12:03.000 --> 0:12:07.520 licensed arson investigator, one who can testify in court, you 0:12:07.679 --> 0:12:12.960 can take a forty hour correspondence course. It takes fifteen 0:12:13.080 --> 0:12:16.480 hundred hours in some places. To become a manicurist. You 0:12:16.520 --> 0:12:19.880 can't get a barber's license in less than six months. 0:12:19.880 --> 0:12:24.200 The idea that they've been relying on these charlatans, you'd 0:12:24.240 --> 0:12:26.960 be better off consulting with psychics or even just guessing. 0:12:27.640 --> 0:12:31.320 And in Christine's case, there are so many other problems right, 0:12:31.360 --> 0:12:34.560 there's a tunnel vision with holding of a sculpatory evidence, 0:12:34.640 --> 0:12:39.439 there's multiple incompetent investigators who pass themselves off as experts, 0:12:39.880 --> 0:12:43.080 and then it goes downhill from there. So there you 0:12:43.160 --> 0:12:47.079 are outside the house and in minutes, in moments, your 0:12:47.160 --> 0:12:50.000 life has gone from a good life, full of love 0:12:50.400 --> 0:12:53.960 and hope to the worst imaginable scenario. 0:12:54.840 --> 0:12:58.439 You're just in shock, and you don't really believe what 0:12:58.559 --> 0:13:01.880 people are telling you because they kept telling me, no, 0:13:02.040 --> 0:13:04.800 you can't go in, and no we couldn't get hit 0:13:04.920 --> 0:13:09.480 him and know he's not alive. And of course as 0:13:09.520 --> 0:13:14.040 a parent, you don't want to believe that. People on 0:13:14.120 --> 0:13:16.400 the outside want to look at it and say, well, 0:13:16.480 --> 0:13:19.640 if this was done differently, or if you had acted 0:13:20.040 --> 0:13:26.600 this way. And I mean, for myself, I have played 0:13:26.600 --> 0:13:29.440 it over and over and over and over again in 0:13:29.440 --> 0:13:32.559 my mind. I still every day that I wake up 0:13:33.200 --> 0:13:36.800 play it over in my mind, and I don't know 0:13:36.840 --> 0:13:41.360 how to come up with a different scenario. When you're 0:13:41.400 --> 0:13:47.560 in that moment and the terror paralyzes you, you don't know 0:13:47.600 --> 0:13:50.760 what you would do. So it's easy to stand outside 0:13:50.760 --> 0:13:54.400 and say this should have never happened, and somebody has 0:13:54.440 --> 0:13:55.559 to be blamed. 0:13:56.559 --> 0:14:00.560 Right, because the alternative is incomprehensible to most people. Why 0:14:00.920 --> 0:14:06.480 innocent baby would be taken from us? Christine? Six days 0:14:06.840 --> 0:14:12.320 in hell? Right? Six days for you between the fire 0:14:12.920 --> 0:14:14.840 and the loss of your child and the time that 0:14:14.880 --> 0:14:16.800 you're arrested. What were those six days? 0:14:16.840 --> 0:14:16.920 Like? 0:14:16.960 --> 0:14:17.760 What were you doing? 0:14:18.840 --> 0:14:25.800 I went with my parents to play a funeral, and 0:14:26.000 --> 0:14:30.040 my mom and dad really went through how the service 0:14:30.160 --> 0:14:33.640 was going to be, and I just remember sitting there 0:14:33.640 --> 0:14:36.880 and crying. And then I told him that I wanted 0:14:36.880 --> 0:14:41.600 a song played something that I, you know, sang with Tony, 0:14:42.840 --> 0:14:47.320 and he said, we can play whatever you want, and. 0:14:47.000 --> 0:14:49.600 Then I had to go get clothes to her to 0:14:49.680 --> 0:14:53.360 a funeral. At that time, I was still walking around 0:14:53.360 --> 0:14:59.960 barefoot because I'd literally lost everything, and everybody was trying to, you. 0:14:59.920 --> 0:15:02.120 Know, comfort you and give you advice. 0:15:01.760 --> 0:15:08.880 And it just doesn't comfort you. So you feel more 0:15:09.000 --> 0:15:13.080 alone than ever because you don't want to hurt their feelings, 0:15:13.120 --> 0:15:16.480 but everything they're saying to you doesn't penetrate. 0:15:19.760 --> 0:15:23.920 The police didn't help because they followed me everywhere I 0:15:23.960 --> 0:15:29.800 went and talked to everybody after I left, and they 0:15:29.840 --> 0:15:35.800 even showed up and my son's funeral and burial. They 0:15:35.880 --> 0:15:37.760 came to me before I even got out of the 0:15:37.760 --> 0:15:40.600 hospital and told me that it was an arson. They 0:15:40.880 --> 0:15:43.840 literally wanted a list of all my family and friends, 0:15:43.840 --> 0:15:47.080 anybody that could have possibly done it. Then they come 0:15:47.120 --> 0:15:49.440 back to me and say, no, you're you're the person. 0:15:49.720 --> 0:15:53.680 You're under arrest for this. And in a small town, 0:15:53.800 --> 0:15:57.120 once they make her rest and put a headline on 0:15:57.160 --> 0:16:02.280 the paper in a small community, in that community's mind, 0:16:02.560 --> 0:16:03.200 you're guilty. 0:16:05.960 --> 0:16:09.800 So now you're arrested. How long were you held before 0:16:09.840 --> 0:16:11.440 the trial? Were you able to bail out? 0:16:12.080 --> 0:16:17.160 I was in there from July sixth to October. Mid October, 0:16:17.600 --> 0:16:20.720 I bonded out on a fifty thousand dollars cash bond. 0:16:21.840 --> 0:16:25.360 I tell my son Trent all the time that he's 0:16:25.720 --> 0:16:30.120 the miracle that saved me. But when I got out, 0:16:30.600 --> 0:16:33.840 I certainly didn't care if I lived or died, and 0:16:33.920 --> 0:16:37.840 so I was drinking and doing a lot of self 0:16:37.920 --> 0:16:44.400 medicating because I just didn't want to feel anymore. And 0:16:44.560 --> 0:16:48.280 in the midst of that, I started getting sick and 0:16:48.400 --> 0:16:50.120 that's when I discovered I was pregnant. 0:16:53.240 --> 0:16:57.560 Yeah, and that's the worst possible scenario. Although now, as 0:16:57.560 --> 0:16:59.880 you said, it turns out to be the thing that 0:17:00.120 --> 0:17:03.640 saved you. And we'll get into more of that later. 0:17:04.119 --> 0:17:08.840 But Ron, this trial is full of I mean again, 0:17:08.880 --> 0:17:11.679 it's horseshit, the stuff that they were spewing from the stand. 0:17:12.480 --> 0:17:14.840 It began with the prosecutor standing in front of the 0:17:14.920 --> 0:17:20.000 jury and saying, motive is not an element of the crime. 0:17:20.400 --> 0:17:25.239 We don't have to prove motive. People tend not to 0:17:25.359 --> 0:17:30.800 commit crimes for no reason. And of course they investigated 0:17:31.040 --> 0:17:34.920 Christine and her motive for this crime, and they found 0:17:35.240 --> 0:17:42.240 that she was a good, loving, caring, wonderful mother and 0:17:42.280 --> 0:17:48.280 that she and Tony had a beautiful relationship. Everybody said 0:17:48.280 --> 0:17:53.000 that universally, and so they're left with telling the jury, Okay, 0:17:54.280 --> 0:17:59.320 Christine committed this horrific crime for no reason, but we 0:17:59.359 --> 0:18:05.400 don't have to prove motive. Then their case depended one 0:18:05.520 --> 0:18:11.720 hundred percent on this quote unquote expert testimony, because Christine 0:18:11.760 --> 0:18:15.960 didn't set this fire. So of course Nobody saw her 0:18:16.520 --> 0:18:19.320 set the fire, Nobody saw her prepare to set the fire, 0:18:19.440 --> 0:18:23.760 nobody heard her talk about setting the fire, Nobody afterwards. 0:18:23.800 --> 0:18:29.399 There was no physical evidence, no forensic evidence, nothing. Of course, 0:18:29.560 --> 0:18:33.760 the trailer wasn't insured. She lost all of her possessions, 0:18:33.880 --> 0:18:36.560 She lost, of course, the person who meant most to 0:18:36.600 --> 0:18:40.320 her in the world. So they were left with this 0:18:40.480 --> 0:18:47.960 expert testimony, these absurd fire investigation myths, which should have 0:18:48.080 --> 0:18:53.000 and could have been dispelled by a defense attorney or 0:18:53.040 --> 0:18:57.280 a competent defense expert. But there was something else that 0:18:57.400 --> 0:19:01.320 was critical in this trial that would have been difficult 0:19:01.520 --> 0:19:03.400 for a defense attorney to combat. 0:19:03.760 --> 0:19:05.960 And I have to tell the audience that this critical 0:19:05.960 --> 0:19:09.399 evidence becomes just as important later to prove in Christine's 0:19:09.440 --> 0:19:13.520 innocence as it was in getting her convicted. But go ahead, Ron. 0:19:14.000 --> 0:19:19.719 They took ten samples from the trailer, from the floor 0:19:19.840 --> 0:19:22.560 of the trailer, from the carpet of the trailer, from 0:19:22.680 --> 0:19:28.920 Christine's nightgown, and they tested it for various accelerants. There 0:19:29.000 --> 0:19:34.280 was no gasoline. There was no inflammatory substance of any 0:19:34.359 --> 0:19:38.919 kind on Christine's nightgown, even though they said that she 0:19:38.960 --> 0:19:43.640 would splash this accelerant all around, but there were two 0:19:44.560 --> 0:19:48.359 positive samples, and those samples, by the way, were given 0:19:48.400 --> 0:19:51.880 to the Durea of alcohol to back on firearms atf 0:19:52.480 --> 0:19:57.720 who federally investigates arson crimes, and they have special laboratories, 0:19:57.760 --> 0:20:04.480 and they did gas chromatizeography on these samples, and they 0:20:04.560 --> 0:20:11.199 presented evidence at trial that there were two positive tests 0:20:11.200 --> 0:20:16.840 for what they called a heavy petroleum distillate like jet 0:20:16.880 --> 0:20:23.919 fuel or something else specifically not kerosene, and that was 0:20:24.000 --> 0:20:30.000 found in the living room area and critically in the 0:20:30.040 --> 0:20:34.960 front room, the room where Tony was found. Now, there 0:20:35.080 --> 0:20:38.359 is reason for there to be kerosene in the living 0:20:38.440 --> 0:20:43.520 room because the prior owners of this trailer testified that 0:20:43.560 --> 0:20:46.399 they had a kerosene heater and that they overfilled it 0:20:46.440 --> 0:20:50.520 from time to time. Kerosene does not evaporate, and so 0:20:50.840 --> 0:20:54.399 even from years before, there would be kerosene in the wood. 0:20:54.920 --> 0:20:58.720 But there's no explanation for a heavy petroleum distillate like 0:20:58.840 --> 0:21:05.520 jet fuel. End, there is absolutely no innocent explanation for 0:21:05.560 --> 0:21:08.919 there to be a heavy petroleum distolate in the front 0:21:09.000 --> 0:21:15.159 room Tony's bedroom, and that was critical evidence that was 0:21:15.720 --> 0:21:19.600 not refuted by the defense attorney, and on the strength 0:21:19.960 --> 0:21:25.640 of that expert testimony of end these critical lab determinations. 0:21:26.400 --> 0:21:28.280 Christine was convicted. 0:21:28.320 --> 0:21:33.680 March fourth, nineteen ninety six, twenty two years old. Pregnant 0:21:34.200 --> 0:21:38.520 Christine is convicted of arson and murder. Less than a 0:21:38.600 --> 0:21:43.600 month later, she's sentenced to two concurrent terms, sixty years 0:21:43.600 --> 0:21:46.960 for murder and fifty years for arson. So how pregnant 0:21:46.960 --> 0:21:49.439 were you, Christine at the time of this wrongful conviction? 0:21:49.600 --> 0:21:54.080 And what the hell was it like giving birth behind bars? 0:21:54.920 --> 0:21:59.359 I was almost six months pregnant. The only thing they 0:21:59.480 --> 0:22:01.040 don't do to pregnant women. 0:22:00.960 --> 0:22:03.800 Is make them wear the belly chain and the box 0:22:04.680 --> 0:22:06.280 because the baby's not a prisoner. 0:22:07.359 --> 0:22:10.760 But with so many pregnant women in there. 0:22:10.680 --> 0:22:14.040 You don't always get soft cuffs for your feet. So 0:22:15.080 --> 0:22:19.560 I've got deep scars on the back of my ankles 0:22:19.600 --> 0:22:24.000 from wearing those metal shackles. 0:22:24.359 --> 0:22:29.000 And then when I finally went into labor, I didn't 0:22:29.040 --> 0:22:30.879 really know that I was in labor because I was 0:22:30.960 --> 0:22:34.520 just having a backache. So they took me to the 0:22:34.560 --> 0:22:39.480 infirmary and couldn't find a heartbeat. I lost it. I started, 0:22:40.040 --> 0:22:43.440 you know, screaming at him, and so I was handcuffed 0:22:43.440 --> 0:22:46.480 and shackle and taken out into an ambulance, and when 0:22:46.480 --> 0:22:49.280 I got to the hospital, a doctor come in and 0:22:49.400 --> 0:22:52.280 explained that I was having contractions and that's why they 0:22:52.280 --> 0:22:56.000 could hear the heartbeat. They determined that I was going 0:22:56.080 --> 0:22:59.199 to have an emergency see section. So the handcuffs and 0:22:59.200 --> 0:23:02.800 shackles came off, and I got a metal cuff on 0:23:02.920 --> 0:23:07.359 my ankle in the log chain. I got about thirty 0:23:07.400 --> 0:23:11.360 six hours with Trent, and then I was transferred back 0:23:11.359 --> 0:23:14.960 to the facility and my family took him home. 0:23:22.320 --> 0:23:25.080 The Pacers Foundation is a proud supporter of this episode 0:23:25.080 --> 0:23:28.280 of Rawful Conviction and of the Last Mile organization, which 0:23:28.320 --> 0:23:32.520 provides business and tech training to help incarcerated individuals successfully 0:23:32.560 --> 0:23:35.920 and permanently re enter the workforce. The Pacers Foundation is 0:23:35.960 --> 0:23:39.600 committed to improving the lives of Hoosiers across Indiana, supporting 0:23:39.720 --> 0:23:43.720 organizations that are dedicated primarily to helping young people and students. 0:23:44.040 --> 0:23:46.560 For more information on the work of the Pacers Foundation 0:23:46.840 --> 0:23:50.359 or the Last Mile Program, visit Pacersfoundation dot org or 0:23:50.359 --> 0:23:57.480 the Lastmile dot org. This episode is sponsored by AIG, 0:23:57.760 --> 0:24:02.560 a leading global insurance company, Paul Weiss, Rifkin, Wharton and Garrison, 0:24:02.640 --> 0:24:06.200 a leading international law firm. The aig pro bono program 0:24:06.240 --> 0:24:10.159 provides free legal services and other support to many nonprofit 0:24:10.240 --> 0:24:14.600 organizations and individuals most in need, and recently they announced 0:24:14.640 --> 0:24:17.200 that working to reform the criminal justice system will become 0:24:17.240 --> 0:24:20.720 a key pillar of the program's mission. Paul Weiss has 0:24:20.800 --> 0:24:24.680 long had an unwavering commitment to providing impactful pro bono 0:24:24.760 --> 0:24:27.960 legal assistance to the most vulnerable members of our society 0:24:28.200 --> 0:24:31.880 and in support of the public interest, including extensive work 0:24:31.920 --> 0:24:41.000 in the criminal justice area. So the good news is 0:24:41.040 --> 0:24:44.119 that there is actually an equal or greater number of 0:24:44.200 --> 0:24:48.639 heroes in this story than villains Betsy Marx, Hillary po Rix, 0:24:48.920 --> 0:24:53.440 Jamie McAllister, and the other two actual fire scientists, John 0:24:53.520 --> 0:24:57.480 Dehan and John Malouley, plus the electrical engineer Richard Hansen, 0:24:58.000 --> 0:25:02.920 then Karen Daniel and Jane Raley. Legends in the field 0:25:03.320 --> 0:25:07.600 were on your side. And of course Ron himself, Ron Safer, 0:25:07.640 --> 0:25:10.480 I mean, the fucking cavalry came in on this one, right. 0:25:10.920 --> 0:25:14.960 Can you talk now about the process that led seventeen 0:25:15.040 --> 0:25:17.560 years later to Christine finally coming home. 0:25:18.320 --> 0:25:26.160 Yes, Christine pursued this tirelessly, against all odds, found a 0:25:26.280 --> 0:25:31.760 wonderful local attorney, Hillary bo Rix, who believed in Christine, 0:25:32.040 --> 0:25:35.320 but really did not have the resources to take on 0:25:35.520 --> 0:25:39.200 the awesome power of the state. And a supporter of 0:25:39.320 --> 0:25:43.400 Christine wrote a letter to Northwestern Center on Wrongful Convictions, 0:25:43.520 --> 0:25:48.639 and Jane Railey, along with Karen Daniel, took Christine's case 0:25:49.280 --> 0:25:55.000 and they disassembled every piece of evidence the state put forward. 0:25:55.600 --> 0:26:01.400 Karen and Jane assembled the world's experts on fire science, 0:26:02.080 --> 0:26:06.440 not the myths of arson investigation, but on fire science, 0:26:06.680 --> 0:26:10.960 to prove first that everything the state said was wrong, 0:26:11.480 --> 0:26:16.639 and then second that Christine was innocent, not beyond a 0:26:16.680 --> 0:26:22.000 reasonable doubt, beyond any doubt. So first they got a 0:26:22.040 --> 0:26:26.600 former ATF agent and he testified that every one of 0:26:26.640 --> 0:26:31.200 the myths that was used by the so called arson 0:26:31.280 --> 0:26:35.919 investigator Brian Frank was wrong. A V pattern does not 0:26:36.040 --> 0:26:39.159 indicate a point of origin. It indicates a point where 0:26:39.280 --> 0:26:43.520 something burned against a wall. Fire burns down not because 0:26:43.560 --> 0:26:47.679 of a liquid accelerant, but because it's seeking oxygen and 0:26:47.720 --> 0:26:51.040 there was a hole in the trailer. So the burn 0:26:51.200 --> 0:26:55.360 patterns that Frank says indicated that there was a liquid 0:26:55.400 --> 0:26:59.600 accelerant have been disproved. Brian Frank said that the fire 0:26:59.760 --> 0:27:03.560 was hotter because a liquid accelerant was used. That is 0:27:03.680 --> 0:27:10.120 a myth. Controlled experiments prove that fire is no hotter. Indeed, 0:27:10.400 --> 0:27:15.080 the heat depends on what is being burnt. So chemistry 0:27:15.600 --> 0:27:20.560 physics disproved every one of the pieces of evidence. But 0:27:20.640 --> 0:27:24.600 there was one more critical thing that Karen Daniel did 0:27:24.920 --> 0:27:31.080 that was pivotal. She subpoened the underlying test data that 0:27:31.119 --> 0:27:34.879 had been used by the ATF Lab and all of 0:27:34.960 --> 0:27:39.680 the documents related to those tests, and what that found 0:27:40.560 --> 0:27:46.439 was stunning. First, she got the actual gas chromatographs, so 0:27:46.480 --> 0:27:51.560