1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:03,160 Speaker 1: We released the harrowing story of Christine Bunch back in 2 00:00:03,240 --> 00:00:06,400 Speaker 1: August twenty twenty. I had a chance to sit down 3 00:00:06,440 --> 00:00:09,360 Speaker 1: with her in person at the twenty twenty three Innocence 4 00:00:09,400 --> 00:00:13,440 Speaker 1: Network Conference in Phoenix, Arizona. And for those who don't know, 5 00:00:13,760 --> 00:00:16,840 Speaker 1: the Innocence Network Conference is a gathering of the innocence 6 00:00:16,880 --> 00:00:19,279 Speaker 1: community from all over the country and even the world, 7 00:00:20,200 --> 00:00:25,520 Speaker 1: ex hoonneries, advocates, lawyers, and folks like doctor Nicki Ali Jackson, 8 00:00:25,720 --> 00:00:28,800 Speaker 1: who was in large part responsible for getting a compensation 9 00:00:28,920 --> 00:00:32,600 Speaker 1: statute passed in Indiana, an effort to which Christine Bunch 10 00:00:32,800 --> 00:00:36,400 Speaker 1: lent a huge helping hand. Now, last we spoke, Christine 11 00:00:36,479 --> 00:00:40,320 Speaker 1: hadn't even received compensation yet, and she was also working 12 00:00:40,360 --> 00:00:44,600 Speaker 1: with her own organization, Just Is for just Us. So 13 00:00:44,760 --> 00:00:47,600 Speaker 1: much has happened since then, and well, I'm just going 14 00:00:47,680 --> 00:00:50,600 Speaker 1: to let her tell you. What do you up to now, Christine. 15 00:00:50,840 --> 00:00:53,720 Speaker 2: I am still on Speaker's Bureau for the Innocence Project 16 00:00:53,720 --> 00:00:56,800 Speaker 2: in New York, so I travel around doing speaking engagements. 17 00:00:56,960 --> 00:01:00,840 Speaker 2: I am the outreach coordinator for Interrogating Justice, and so 18 00:01:00,920 --> 00:01:05,920 Speaker 2: we're providing vetted resources and information on your legal rights 19 00:01:05,959 --> 00:01:09,200 Speaker 2: to everybody in every stage of the legal system, not 20 00:01:09,520 --> 00:01:13,400 Speaker 2: just the exonerated. And in my spare time, I'm working 21 00:01:13,400 --> 00:01:17,120 Speaker 2: with the Illinois Innocence Project because we are doing police training, 22 00:01:17,319 --> 00:01:21,160 Speaker 2: and that police training just went mandatory and statewide for 23 00:01:21,280 --> 00:01:23,040 Speaker 2: every police academy in Illinois. 24 00:01:24,160 --> 00:01:27,280 Speaker 1: I mean, that's a full dance card right there, and 25 00:01:27,319 --> 00:01:28,560 Speaker 1: you do it all with a smile on your face, 26 00:01:28,560 --> 00:01:31,720 Speaker 1: which is incredible. Also, Christine, I'm going to brag about 27 00:01:31,760 --> 00:01:35,920 Speaker 1: you for a second. It was Christine's case that, when 28 00:01:35,959 --> 00:01:39,160 Speaker 1: brought to the attention of the governor, led to the 29 00:01:39,240 --> 00:01:43,240 Speaker 1: signing of a bill that established compensation for exoneries in 30 00:01:43,319 --> 00:01:46,280 Speaker 1: the state of Indiana. So yeah, you have had a 31 00:01:46,319 --> 00:01:51,400 Speaker 1: profound impact on so many people and including me. So 32 00:01:51,680 --> 00:01:53,600 Speaker 1: what else? What do you do for fun? Christine? 33 00:01:53,880 --> 00:01:58,720 Speaker 2: I really love pedicures, especially if they serve cocktails while 34 00:01:58,720 --> 00:01:59,880 Speaker 2: you're getting your pedicure. 35 00:02:00,160 --> 00:02:01,200 Speaker 3: I mean that's boss. 36 00:02:01,880 --> 00:02:05,520 Speaker 2: And tattoos, and of course playing with my dogs because 37 00:02:05,520 --> 00:02:09,560 Speaker 2: I have two beautiful Siberian huskies that make every day perfect. 38 00:02:09,720 --> 00:02:10,520 Speaker 1: What are their names? 39 00:02:10,880 --> 00:02:12,200 Speaker 3: Piper and Paxton? 40 00:02:12,840 --> 00:02:16,880 Speaker 1: Amazing? And how do people find out more about what 41 00:02:16,919 --> 00:02:18,560 Speaker 1: you're doing if they want to support it? Is there 42 00:02:18,600 --> 00:02:20,640 Speaker 1: a website they can go to? Is there a link 43 00:02:20,680 --> 00:02:21,200 Speaker 1: what is there. 44 00:02:21,600 --> 00:02:25,760 Speaker 2: You can go to Interrogating Justice dot org and connect 45 00:02:25,800 --> 00:02:27,960 Speaker 2: with us and find ways that you can help. If 46 00:02:27,960 --> 00:02:30,840 Speaker 2: your justice impacted, come for help. We want to hear 47 00:02:30,880 --> 00:02:33,200 Speaker 2: from you, We want to serve you. We want to 48 00:02:33,200 --> 00:02:37,520 Speaker 2: make transition into and out of the system easier for 49 00:02:37,639 --> 00:02:40,240 Speaker 2: not only the individual, but their families as well, because 50 00:02:40,280 --> 00:02:44,400 Speaker 2: families are so impacted. And you can also make yourself 51 00:02:44,440 --> 00:02:47,120 Speaker 2: more aware of what's going on the system by listening 52 00:02:47,160 --> 00:02:50,880 Speaker 2: to the Wrongful Conviction podcast with Jason plom Ah. 53 00:02:51,040 --> 00:02:56,600 Speaker 1: Yay, thank You. In the summer of nineteen ninety five, 54 00:02:56,840 --> 00:02:59,560 Speaker 1: twenty one year old single mom Christine Bunch was living 55 00:02:59,600 --> 00:03:02,480 Speaker 1: in a train in Greensburg, Indiana, with her three year 56 00:03:02,520 --> 00:03:06,520 Speaker 1: old son Tony. In the early morning hours of July thirtieth, 57 00:03:06,560 --> 00:03:10,079 Speaker 1: an electrical fire began between the roof and the ceiling tiles. 58 00:03:10,440 --> 00:03:12,880 Speaker 1: When the fire caused one of the ceiling tiles to 59 00:03:12,960 --> 00:03:16,600 Speaker 1: fall in Tony's bedroom, a cloud of carbon monoxide gas 60 00:03:16,919 --> 00:03:20,760 Speaker 1: killed the little boy before the fire even could. Christine 61 00:03:20,800 --> 00:03:24,720 Speaker 1: awoke in a carbon monoxide haze, desperately trying to save Tony. 62 00:03:25,280 --> 00:03:28,760 Speaker 1: After failed attempts at extinguishing the fire, she ran for help. 63 00:03:29,440 --> 00:03:33,120 Speaker 1: Then she smashed Tony's bedroom window, but it was too late. 64 00:03:33,520 --> 00:03:39,920 Speaker 1: She was barefoot, homeless, and deep in despair. Arson investigator 65 00:03:40,040 --> 00:03:43,560 Speaker 1: Brian Frank used what is widely now known as junk 66 00:03:43,640 --> 00:03:48,040 Speaker 1: science to point the blame for Tony's death squarely at Christine. 67 00:03:48,400 --> 00:03:51,400 Speaker 1: So six days after losing her three year old boy 68 00:03:51,600 --> 00:03:55,400 Speaker 1: and nearly everything she ever had, Christine lost her freedom 69 00:03:55,560 --> 00:03:59,760 Speaker 1: as well. With no potential alibi or eyewitnesses, the state 70 00:04:00,080 --> 00:04:04,120 Speaker 1: easily sealed Christine's fate with the testimony of Brian Frank 71 00:04:04,320 --> 00:04:08,600 Speaker 1: and ATF forensic analyst William Cannard. Christine gave birth to 72 00:04:08,640 --> 00:04:11,240 Speaker 1: her son, Trent, just a few months after being sent 73 00:04:11,280 --> 00:04:14,560 Speaker 1: to prison, and a decade passed before her attorney and 74 00:04:14,640 --> 00:04:17,320 Speaker 1: a team from the Center on Wrongful Convictions at Northwestern 75 00:04:17,400 --> 00:04:22,320 Speaker 1: University uncovered an egregious Brady violation and blatantly false testimony, 76 00:04:22,880 --> 00:04:27,640 Speaker 1: bringing Christine after seventeen years, one month, and sixteen days 77 00:04:27,680 --> 00:04:48,000 Speaker 1: behind bars. This is wrongful conviction with Jason flam Welcome 78 00:04:48,040 --> 00:04:51,279 Speaker 1: back to wrongful conviction with Jason flawm that's me, of course, 79 00:04:51,320 --> 00:04:53,560 Speaker 1: And today you're going to hear a story that's as 80 00:04:53,600 --> 00:04:57,640 Speaker 1: heartbreaking and tragic as it was preventable and it's a 81 00:04:57,680 --> 00:05:01,039 Speaker 1: remarkable look inside the systemic flaw as well as human 82 00:05:01,120 --> 00:05:05,920 Speaker 1: errors that lead to wrongful convictions. And in this particular case, 83 00:05:05,960 --> 00:05:08,680 Speaker 1: we're going to be telling the story and hearing the 84 00:05:08,720 --> 00:05:13,159 Speaker 1: story of one of my absolute favorite human beings, a 85 00:05:13,160 --> 00:05:16,840 Speaker 1: personal hero of mine, who is doing amazing, amazing things 86 00:05:16,839 --> 00:05:20,080 Speaker 1: in the world right now, today and every day. And 87 00:05:20,160 --> 00:05:24,240 Speaker 1: so I am thrilled and honored to have with us 88 00:05:24,240 --> 00:05:26,400 Speaker 1: on the show today, Christine. 89 00:05:26,000 --> 00:05:28,160 Speaker 3: Bunch, Thank you so much. I'm happy to be. 90 00:05:28,120 --> 00:05:31,720 Speaker 1: Here and with Christine as someone whose name you'll probably recognize, 91 00:05:31,839 --> 00:05:35,839 Speaker 1: Ron Safer. Ron is a former US attorney turned corporate 92 00:05:35,920 --> 00:05:40,359 Speaker 1: lawyer turned justice fighter, and you'll recognize him because he 93 00:05:40,520 --> 00:05:43,920 Speaker 1: was a huge part of the Exoneration of Julie Ray, 94 00:05:44,279 --> 00:05:47,080 Speaker 1: an episode that I'll never forget and I hope if 95 00:05:47,160 --> 00:05:48,840 Speaker 1: you haven't heard it, that you'll go back and take 96 00:05:48,880 --> 00:05:51,599 Speaker 1: a listen. Anyway, Ron, welcome back. 97 00:05:52,120 --> 00:05:54,120 Speaker 4: My pleasure to be here. Thank you, Jason. 98 00:05:54,480 --> 00:05:57,560 Speaker 1: So let's get right into it. Christine, you grew up 99 00:05:57,600 --> 00:05:59,360 Speaker 1: in Indiana, right I did. 100 00:06:00,120 --> 00:06:04,080 Speaker 3: Things took a crazy turn when my parents divorced, but 101 00:06:04,160 --> 00:06:06,960 Speaker 3: for the most part I was happy and it was good. 102 00:06:07,520 --> 00:06:12,240 Speaker 1: Now at the time of this unimaginable tragedy. You were 103 00:06:13,279 --> 00:06:16,719 Speaker 1: just a young mother living in a trailer, working hard, 104 00:06:16,720 --> 00:06:19,680 Speaker 1: going to school, just starting your Life's just twenty one 105 00:06:19,760 --> 00:06:20,279 Speaker 1: years old. 106 00:06:20,200 --> 00:06:23,279 Speaker 3: Right, that's correct. I was working and going to school, 107 00:06:24,120 --> 00:06:26,640 Speaker 3: and I had a beautiful three year old son named Tony. 108 00:06:27,320 --> 00:06:30,839 Speaker 1: And then the worst nightmare that any parent can possibly 109 00:06:30,920 --> 00:06:34,120 Speaker 1: have or wake up to in a cold sweat, and 110 00:06:34,279 --> 00:06:36,240 Speaker 1: some of us probably have had that experience, but it 111 00:06:36,360 --> 00:06:40,320 Speaker 1: actually happened to you, and Ron, can you tell us 112 00:06:40,400 --> 00:06:43,920 Speaker 1: about that awful morning of June thirtieth, nineteen ninety five. 113 00:06:44,080 --> 00:06:49,160 Speaker 4: What happened was Christine and Tony had gone to sleep 114 00:06:49,360 --> 00:06:53,040 Speaker 4: together on a couch in the living room area of 115 00:06:53,080 --> 00:06:58,279 Speaker 4: the trailer. Before Christine woke up, Tony had moved to 116 00:06:58,360 --> 00:07:01,000 Speaker 4: the front room, which was a separate room from the 117 00:07:01,040 --> 00:07:09,760 Speaker 4: living room. Christine awoke to a sound and a small fire. 118 00:07:10,840 --> 00:07:16,800 Speaker 4: She was disoriented, but she saw the small fire and 119 00:07:17,200 --> 00:07:20,720 Speaker 4: she tried to put it out with a pillow and 120 00:07:20,840 --> 00:07:25,240 Speaker 4: couldn't do that, so she tried to smother the fire 121 00:07:25,360 --> 00:07:30,800 Speaker 4: with a blanket and that didn't work either. Carbon monoxide 122 00:07:31,160 --> 00:07:37,120 Speaker 4: is intoxicating. Christine was undoubtedly affected by this carbon monoxide. 123 00:07:37,160 --> 00:07:41,320 Speaker 4: She's trying to put out the fire. She can't find 124 00:07:41,680 --> 00:07:45,400 Speaker 4: the fire extinguisher. She knows where the fire extinguisher is, 125 00:07:45,480 --> 00:07:49,560 Speaker 4: she can't find it. So by that time, the fire 126 00:07:49,680 --> 00:07:53,720 Speaker 4: had grown into a wall between her and Tony and 127 00:07:53,800 --> 00:07:57,160 Speaker 4: she could not get to him. So she frantically went 128 00:07:57,280 --> 00:08:00,240 Speaker 4: out of the trailer, tried to get help, and then 129 00:08:00,440 --> 00:08:03,960 Speaker 4: tried to break the window into the front room so 130 00:08:04,000 --> 00:08:07,880 Speaker 4: that she could get to Tony. But it was too late, 131 00:08:08,680 --> 00:08:10,120 Speaker 4: and Tony had perished. 132 00:08:11,680 --> 00:08:15,600 Speaker 1: It's impossible to even conceive of the horror and the 133 00:08:15,640 --> 00:08:18,280 Speaker 1: panic in a time like that, even if you didn't 134 00:08:18,320 --> 00:08:21,920 Speaker 1: have kids, like waking up to a fire. Christine, what 135 00:08:21,960 --> 00:08:25,680 Speaker 1: are your memories of that awful night now twenty five 136 00:08:25,720 --> 00:08:26,200 Speaker 1: years ago. 137 00:08:27,400 --> 00:08:29,320 Speaker 3: I think the thing that sits with me the most 138 00:08:29,360 --> 00:08:33,360 Speaker 3: is it was just normal. I came home from school, 139 00:08:33,640 --> 00:08:37,320 Speaker 3: and I got Tony from the babysitter, and we went 140 00:08:37,360 --> 00:08:42,320 Speaker 3: home and we cooked, and I think we watched some 141 00:08:42,440 --> 00:08:45,760 Speaker 3: TV and did some laundry, and we fell asleep. I'd 142 00:08:45,760 --> 00:08:48,480 Speaker 3: read him a story and he wasn't feeling really well, 143 00:08:48,840 --> 00:08:51,960 Speaker 3: and we fell asleep on the couch under the air conditioner, 144 00:08:52,840 --> 00:08:58,120 Speaker 3: and everything just seemed normal. You didn't realize that you 145 00:08:58,160 --> 00:09:01,280 Speaker 3: were going to wake up in your whole world would 146 00:09:01,280 --> 00:09:02,520 Speaker 3: be turned upside down. 147 00:09:03,280 --> 00:09:08,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, your whole world was really destroyed at 148 00:09:08,600 --> 00:09:13,120 Speaker 1: a time when the community and the system should have 149 00:09:13,200 --> 00:09:18,240 Speaker 1: been coming to help you in every conceivable way. Instead, 150 00:09:19,200 --> 00:09:23,240 Speaker 1: you were exposed to and victimized by the worst that 151 00:09:23,400 --> 00:09:26,000 Speaker 1: the system and our society has to offer. And it's 152 00:09:26,040 --> 00:09:30,560 Speaker 1: so important that you're here now because this arson quote 153 00:09:30,640 --> 00:09:33,440 Speaker 1: unquote science that they used in order to frame you 154 00:09:33,600 --> 00:09:37,960 Speaker 1: and wrongfully convict you for a crime that never even 155 00:09:38,040 --> 00:09:41,160 Speaker 1: happened is something that we need to focus on because 156 00:09:41,200 --> 00:09:45,559 Speaker 1: we need awareness among everyone because someday, you, the listener, 157 00:09:45,600 --> 00:09:48,319 Speaker 1: may find yourself on a jury and you may be 158 00:09:48,440 --> 00:09:51,520 Speaker 1: presented with this same sort of junk science. 159 00:09:52,120 --> 00:09:59,280 Speaker 4: So fire investigation was an apprentice art. They were what 160 00:09:59,360 --> 00:10:04,400 Speaker 4: would were arded as common knowledge and industry standards that 161 00:10:04,440 --> 00:10:10,400 Speaker 4: were passed down from generation to generation. Virtually none of 162 00:10:10,440 --> 00:10:17,280 Speaker 4: those conventional wisdom were true, and when tested by scientific principles, 163 00:10:17,400 --> 00:10:22,920 Speaker 4: they were all debunked. Unfortunately that came too late for Christine. 164 00:10:23,720 --> 00:10:27,760 Speaker 1: And this starts with a fire investigator named Brian Frank. 165 00:10:28,120 --> 00:10:31,880 Speaker 4: So what Frank did was the day of this fire, 166 00:10:32,160 --> 00:10:37,120 Speaker 4: and keep in mind, this trailer was completely incinerated he 167 00:10:37,679 --> 00:10:42,120 Speaker 4: comes into the trailer and just plucks things out of 168 00:10:42,360 --> 00:10:48,120 Speaker 4: thin air. He says, Oh, this, this is a burn 169 00:10:48,320 --> 00:10:53,679 Speaker 4: pattern on the floor. That's evidence of a liquid accelerant 170 00:10:54,040 --> 00:10:59,120 Speaker 4: by gasoline. Ooh, there's a V pattern on the wall. 171 00:10:59,679 --> 00:11:04,719 Speaker 4: That is, fire burns up in a V pattern. And therefore, 172 00:11:05,320 --> 00:11:09,320 Speaker 4: because there are two of these, there were two points 173 00:11:09,320 --> 00:11:14,320 Speaker 4: of origin. A normal accidental fire will have one point 174 00:11:14,360 --> 00:11:18,080 Speaker 4: of origin. Sometimes if a fire is intentionally set, it 175 00:11:18,160 --> 00:11:22,640 Speaker 4: will have two points of origin. Says Oops, here the 176 00:11:22,679 --> 00:11:28,480 Speaker 4: fire burned down. That is a sign of a liquid accelerant. 177 00:11:28,800 --> 00:11:32,520 Speaker 4: For all of these reasons, I conclude this was not 178 00:11:32,920 --> 00:11:37,640 Speaker 4: an accidental fire. This was intentionally set because, as you 179 00:11:37,679 --> 00:11:41,880 Speaker 4: said at the beginning, Jason, unlike many crimes like a 180 00:11:42,120 --> 00:11:46,960 Speaker 4: robbery or a fraud or a murder, the question in 181 00:11:47,040 --> 00:11:51,480 Speaker 4: an arson is was a crime even committed? And upon 182 00:11:51,640 --> 00:11:56,439 Speaker 4: that threshold question rests the lives of hundreds of people, 183 00:11:57,080 --> 00:11:58,239 Speaker 4: including Christine. 184 00:11:59,080 --> 00:12:02,800 Speaker 1: Here's what's at absolutely nuts is that to become a 185 00:12:03,000 --> 00:12:07,520 Speaker 1: licensed arson investigator, one who can testify in court, you 186 00:12:07,679 --> 00:12:12,960 Speaker 1: can take a forty hour correspondence course. It takes fifteen 187 00:12:13,080 --> 00:12:16,480 Speaker 1: hundred hours in some places. To become a manicurist. You 188 00:12:16,520 --> 00:12:19,880 Speaker 1: can't get a barber's license in less than six months. 189 00:12:19,880 --> 00:12:24,200 Speaker 1: The idea that they've been relying on these charlatans, you'd 190 00:12:24,240 --> 00:12:26,960 Speaker 1: be better off consulting with psychics or even just guessing. 191 00:12:27,640 --> 00:12:31,320 Speaker 1: And in Christine's case, there are so many other problems right, 192 00:12:31,360 --> 00:12:34,560 Speaker 1: there's a tunnel vision with holding of a sculpatory evidence, 193 00:12:34,640 --> 00:12:39,439 Speaker 1: there's multiple incompetent investigators who pass themselves off as experts, 194 00:12:39,880 --> 00:12:43,080 Speaker 1: and then it goes downhill from there. So there you 195 00:12:43,160 --> 00:12:47,079 Speaker 1: are outside the house and in minutes, in moments, your 196 00:12:47,160 --> 00:12:50,000 Speaker 1: life has gone from a good life, full of love 197 00:12:50,400 --> 00:12:53,960 Speaker 1: and hope to the worst imaginable scenario. 198 00:12:54,840 --> 00:12:58,439 Speaker 3: You're just in shock, and you don't really believe what 199 00:12:58,559 --> 00:13:01,880 Speaker 3: people are telling you because they kept telling me, no, 200 00:13:02,040 --> 00:13:04,800 Speaker 3: you can't go in, and no we couldn't get hit 201 00:13:04,920 --> 00:13:09,480 Speaker 3: him and know he's not alive. And of course as 202 00:13:09,520 --> 00:13:14,040 Speaker 3: a parent, you don't want to believe that. People on 203 00:13:14,120 --> 00:13:16,400 Speaker 3: the outside want to look at it and say, well, 204 00:13:16,480 --> 00:13:19,640 Speaker 3: if this was done differently, or if you had acted 205 00:13:20,040 --> 00:13:26,600 Speaker 3: this way. And I mean, for myself, I have played 206 00:13:26,600 --> 00:13:29,440 Speaker 3: it over and over and over and over again in 207 00:13:29,440 --> 00:13:32,559 Speaker 3: my mind. I still every day that I wake up 208 00:13:33,200 --> 00:13:36,800 Speaker 3: play it over in my mind, and I don't know 209 00:13:36,840 --> 00:13:41,360 Speaker 3: how to come up with a different scenario. When you're 210 00:13:41,400 --> 00:13:47,560 Speaker 3: in that moment and the terror paralyzes you, you don't know 211 00:13:47,600 --> 00:13:50,760 Speaker 3: what you would do. So it's easy to stand outside 212 00:13:50,760 --> 00:13:54,400 Speaker 3: and say this should have never happened, and somebody has 213 00:13:54,440 --> 00:13:55,559 Speaker 3: to be blamed. 214 00:13:56,559 --> 00:14:00,560 Speaker 1: Right, because the alternative is incomprehensible to most people. Why 215 00:14:00,920 --> 00:14:06,480 Speaker 1: innocent baby would be taken from us? Christine? Six days 216 00:14:06,840 --> 00:14:12,320 Speaker 1: in hell? Right? Six days for you between the fire 217 00:14:12,920 --> 00:14:14,840 Speaker 1: and the loss of your child and the time that 218 00:14:14,880 --> 00:14:16,800 Speaker 1: you're arrested. What were those six days? 219 00:14:16,840 --> 00:14:16,920 Speaker 5: Like? 220 00:14:16,960 --> 00:14:17,760 Speaker 1: What were you doing? 221 00:14:18,840 --> 00:14:25,800 Speaker 3: I went with my parents to play a funeral, and 222 00:14:26,000 --> 00:14:30,040 Speaker 3: my mom and dad really went through how the service 223 00:14:30,160 --> 00:14:33,640 Speaker 3: was going to be, and I just remember sitting there 224 00:14:33,640 --> 00:14:36,880 Speaker 3: and crying. And then I told him that I wanted 225 00:14:36,880 --> 00:14:41,600 Speaker 3: a song played something that I, you know, sang with Tony, 226 00:14:42,840 --> 00:14:47,320 Speaker 3: and he said, we can play whatever you want, and. 227 00:14:47,000 --> 00:14:49,600 Speaker 6: Then I had to go get clothes to her to 228 00:14:49,680 --> 00:14:53,360 Speaker 6: a funeral. At that time, I was still walking around 229 00:14:53,360 --> 00:14:59,960 Speaker 6: barefoot because I'd literally lost everything, and everybody was trying to, you. 230 00:14:59,920 --> 00:15:02,120 Speaker 3: Know, comfort you and give you advice. 231 00:15:01,760 --> 00:15:08,880 Speaker 7: And it just doesn't comfort you. So you feel more 232 00:15:09,000 --> 00:15:13,080 Speaker 7: alone than ever because you don't want to hurt their feelings, 233 00:15:13,120 --> 00:15:16,480 Speaker 7: but everything they're saying to you doesn't penetrate. 234 00:15:19,760 --> 00:15:23,920 Speaker 3: The police didn't help because they followed me everywhere I 235 00:15:23,960 --> 00:15:29,800 Speaker 3: went and talked to everybody after I left, and they 236 00:15:29,840 --> 00:15:35,800 Speaker 3: even showed up and my son's funeral and burial. They 237 00:15:35,880 --> 00:15:37,760 Speaker 3: came to me before I even got out of the 238 00:15:37,760 --> 00:15:40,600 Speaker 3: hospital and told me that it was an arson. They 239 00:15:40,880 --> 00:15:43,840 Speaker 3: literally wanted a list of all my family and friends, 240 00:15:43,840 --> 00:15:47,080 Speaker 3: anybody that could have possibly done it. Then they come 241 00:15:47,120 --> 00:15:49,440 Speaker 3: back to me and say, no, you're you're the person. 242 00:15:49,720 --> 00:15:53,680 Speaker 3: You're under arrest for this. And in a small town, 243 00:15:53,800 --> 00:15:57,120 Speaker 3: once they make her rest and put a headline on 244 00:15:57,160 --> 00:16:02,280 Speaker 3: the paper in a small community, in that community's mind, 245 00:16:02,560 --> 00:16:03,200 Speaker 3: you're guilty. 246 00:16:05,960 --> 00:16:09,800 Speaker 1: So now you're arrested. How long were you held before 247 00:16:09,840 --> 00:16:11,440 Speaker 1: the trial? Were you able to bail out? 248 00:16:12,080 --> 00:16:17,160 Speaker 3: I was in there from July sixth to October. Mid October, 249 00:16:17,600 --> 00:16:20,720 Speaker 3: I bonded out on a fifty thousand dollars cash bond. 250 00:16:21,840 --> 00:16:25,360 Speaker 3: I tell my son Trent all the time that he's 251 00:16:25,720 --> 00:16:30,120 Speaker 3: the miracle that saved me. But when I got out, 252 00:16:30,600 --> 00:16:33,840 Speaker 3: I certainly didn't care if I lived or died, and 253 00:16:33,920 --> 00:16:37,840 Speaker 3: so I was drinking and doing a lot of self 254 00:16:37,920 --> 00:16:44,400 Speaker 3: medicating because I just didn't want to feel anymore. And 255 00:16:44,560 --> 00:16:48,280 Speaker 3: in the midst of that, I started getting sick and 256 00:16:48,400 --> 00:16:50,120 Speaker 3: that's when I discovered I was pregnant. 257 00:16:53,240 --> 00:16:57,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, and that's the worst possible scenario. Although now, as 258 00:16:57,560 --> 00:16:59,880 Speaker 1: you said, it turns out to be the thing that 259 00:17:00,120 --> 00:17:03,640 Speaker 1: saved you. And we'll get into more of that later. 260 00:17:04,119 --> 00:17:08,840 Speaker 1: But Ron, this trial is full of I mean again, 261 00:17:08,880 --> 00:17:11,679 Speaker 1: it's horseshit, the stuff that they were spewing from the stand. 262 00:17:12,480 --> 00:17:14,840 Speaker 4: It began with the prosecutor standing in front of the 263 00:17:14,920 --> 00:17:20,000 Speaker 4: jury and saying, motive is not an element of the crime. 264 00:17:20,400 --> 00:17:25,239 Speaker 4: We don't have to prove motive. People tend not to 265 00:17:25,359 --> 00:17:30,800 Speaker 4: commit crimes for no reason. And of course they investigated 266 00:17:31,040 --> 00:17:34,920 Speaker 4: Christine and her motive for this crime, and they found 267 00:17:35,240 --> 00:17:42,240 Speaker 4: that she was a good, loving, caring, wonderful mother and 268 00:17:42,280 --> 00:17:48,280 Speaker 4: that she and Tony had a beautiful relationship. Everybody said 269 00:17:48,280 --> 00:17:53,000 Speaker 4: that universally, and so they're left with telling the jury, Okay, 270 00:17:54,280 --> 00:17:59,320 Speaker 4: Christine committed this horrific crime for no reason, but we 271 00:17:59,359 --> 00:18:05,400 Speaker 4: don't have to prove motive. Then their case depended one 272 00:18:05,520 --> 00:18:11,720 Speaker 4: hundred percent on this quote unquote expert testimony, because Christine 273 00:18:11,760 --> 00:18:15,960 Speaker 4: didn't set this fire. So of course Nobody saw her 274 00:18:16,520 --> 00:18:19,320 Speaker 4: set the fire, Nobody saw her prepare to set the fire, 275 00:18:19,440 --> 00:18:23,760 Speaker 4: nobody heard her talk about setting the fire, Nobody afterwards. 276 00:18:23,800 --> 00:18:29,399 Speaker 4: There was no physical evidence, no forensic evidence, nothing. Of course, 277 00:18:29,560 --> 00:18:33,760 Speaker 4: the trailer wasn't insured. She lost all of her possessions, 278 00:18:33,880 --> 00:18:36,560 Speaker 4: She lost, of course, the person who meant most to 279 00:18:36,600 --> 00:18:40,320 Speaker 4: her in the world. So they were left with this 280 00:18:40,480 --> 00:18:47,960 Speaker 4: expert testimony, these absurd fire investigation myths, which should have 281 00:18:48,080 --> 00:18:53,000 Speaker 4: and could have been dispelled by a defense attorney or 282 00:18:53,040 --> 00:18:57,280 Speaker 4: a competent defense expert. But there was something else that 283 00:18:57,400 --> 00:19:01,320 Speaker 4: was critical in this trial that would have been difficult 284 00:19:01,520 --> 00:19:03,400 Speaker 4: for a defense attorney to combat. 285 00:19:03,760 --> 00:19:05,960 Speaker 1: And I have to tell the audience that this critical 286 00:19:05,960 --> 00:19:09,399 Speaker 1: evidence becomes just as important later to prove in Christine's 287 00:19:09,440 --> 00:19:13,520 Speaker 1: innocence as it was in getting her convicted. But go ahead, Ron. 288 00:19:14,000 --> 00:19:19,719 Speaker 4: They took ten samples from the trailer, from the floor 289 00:19:19,840 --> 00:19:22,560 Speaker 4: of the trailer, from the carpet of the trailer, from 290 00:19:22,680 --> 00:19:28,920 Speaker 4: Christine's nightgown, and they tested it for various accelerants. There 291 00:19:29,000 --> 00:19:34,280 Speaker 4: was no gasoline. There was no inflammatory substance of any 292 00:19:34,359 --> 00:19:38,919 Speaker 4: kind on Christine's nightgown, even though they said that she 293 00:19:38,960 --> 00:19:43,640 Speaker 4: would splash this accelerant all around, but there were two 294 00:19:44,560 --> 00:19:48,359 Speaker 4: positive samples, and those samples, by the way, were given 295 00:19:48,400 --> 00:19:51,880 Speaker 4: to the Durea of alcohol to back on firearms atf 296 00:19:52,480 --> 00:19:57,720 Speaker 4: who federally investigates arson crimes, and they have special laboratories, 297 00:19:57,760 --> 00:20:04,480 Speaker 4: and they did gas chromatizeography on these samples, and they 298 00:20:04,560 --> 00:20:11,199 Speaker 4: presented evidence at trial that there were two positive tests 299 00:20:11,200 --> 00:20:16,840 Speaker 4: for what they called a heavy petroleum distillate like jet 300 00:20:16,880 --> 00:20:23,919 Speaker 4: fuel or something else specifically not kerosene, and that was 301 00:20:24,000 --> 00:20:30,000 Speaker 4: found in the living room area and critically in the 302 00:20:30,040 --> 00:20:34,960 Speaker 4: front room, the room where Tony was found. Now, there 303 00:20:35,080 --> 00:20:38,359 Speaker 4: is reason for there to be kerosene in the living 304 00:20:38,440 --> 00:20:43,520 Speaker 4: room because the prior owners of this trailer testified that 305 00:20:43,560 --> 00:20:46,399 Speaker 4: they had a kerosene heater and that they overfilled it 306 00:20:46,440 --> 00:20:50,520 Speaker 4: from time to time. Kerosene does not evaporate, and so 307 00:20:50,840 --> 00:20:54,399 Speaker 4: even from years before, there would be kerosene in the wood. 308 00:20:54,920 --> 00:20:58,720 Speaker 4: But there's no explanation for a heavy petroleum distillate like 309 00:20:58,840 --> 00:21:05,520 Speaker 4: jet fuel. End, there is absolutely no innocent explanation for 310 00:21:05,560 --> 00:21:08,919 Speaker 4: there to be a heavy petroleum distolate in the front 311 00:21:09,000 --> 00:21:15,159 Speaker 4: room Tony's bedroom, and that was critical evidence that was 312 00:21:15,720 --> 00:21:19,600 Speaker 4: not refuted by the defense attorney, and on the strength 313 00:21:19,960 --> 00:21:25,640 Speaker 4: of that expert testimony of end these critical lab determinations. 314 00:21:26,400 --> 00:21:28,280 Speaker 4: Christine was convicted. 315 00:21:28,320 --> 00:21:33,680 Speaker 1: March fourth, nineteen ninety six, twenty two years old. Pregnant 316 00:21:34,200 --> 00:21:38,520 Speaker 1: Christine is convicted of arson and murder. Less than a 317 00:21:38,600 --> 00:21:43,600 Speaker 1: month later, she's sentenced to two concurrent terms, sixty years 318 00:21:43,600 --> 00:21:46,960 Speaker 1: for murder and fifty years for arson. So how pregnant 319 00:21:46,960 --> 00:21:49,439 Speaker 1: were you, Christine at the time of this wrongful conviction? 320 00:21:49,600 --> 00:21:54,080 Speaker 1: And what the hell was it like giving birth behind bars? 321 00:21:54,920 --> 00:21:59,359 Speaker 3: I was almost six months pregnant. The only thing they 322 00:21:59,480 --> 00:22:01,040 Speaker 3: don't do to pregnant women. 323 00:22:00,960 --> 00:22:03,800 Speaker 8: Is make them wear the belly chain and the box 324 00:22:04,680 --> 00:22:06,280 Speaker 8: because the baby's not a prisoner. 325 00:22:07,359 --> 00:22:10,760 Speaker 3: But with so many pregnant women in there. 326 00:22:10,680 --> 00:22:14,040 Speaker 8: You don't always get soft cuffs for your feet. So 327 00:22:15,080 --> 00:22:19,560 Speaker 8: I've got deep scars on the back of my ankles 328 00:22:19,600 --> 00:22:24,000 Speaker 8: from wearing those metal shackles. 329 00:22:24,359 --> 00:22:29,000 Speaker 3: And then when I finally went into labor, I didn't 330 00:22:29,040 --> 00:22:30,879 Speaker 3: really know that I was in labor because I was 331 00:22:30,960 --> 00:22:34,520 Speaker 3: just having a backache. So they took me to the 332 00:22:34,560 --> 00:22:39,480 Speaker 3: infirmary and couldn't find a heartbeat. I lost it. I started, 333 00:22:40,040 --> 00:22:43,440 Speaker 3: you know, screaming at him, and so I was handcuffed 334 00:22:43,440 --> 00:22:46,480 Speaker 3: and shackle and taken out into an ambulance, and when 335 00:22:46,480 --> 00:22:49,280 Speaker 3: I got to the hospital, a doctor come in and 336 00:22:49,400 --> 00:22:52,280 Speaker 3: explained that I was having contractions and that's why they 337 00:22:52,280 --> 00:22:56,000 Speaker 3: could hear the heartbeat. They determined that I was going 338 00:22:56,080 --> 00:22:59,199 Speaker 3: to have an emergency see section. So the handcuffs and 339 00:22:59,200 --> 00:23:02,800 Speaker 3: shackles came off, and I got a metal cuff on 340 00:23:02,920 --> 00:23:07,359 Speaker 3: my ankle in the log chain. I got about thirty 341 00:23:07,400 --> 00:23:11,360 Speaker 3: six hours with Trent, and then I was transferred back 342 00:23:11,359 --> 00:23:14,960 Speaker 3: to the facility and my family took him home. 343 00:23:22,320 --> 00:23:25,080 Speaker 1: The Pacers Foundation is a proud supporter of this episode 344 00:23:25,080 --> 00:23:28,280 Speaker 1: of Rawful Conviction and of the Last Mile organization, which 345 00:23:28,320 --> 00:23:32,520 Speaker 1: provides business and tech training to help incarcerated individuals successfully 346 00:23:32,560 --> 00:23:35,920 Speaker 1: and permanently re enter the workforce. The Pacers Foundation is 347 00:23:35,960 --> 00:23:39,600 Speaker 1: committed to improving the lives of Hoosiers across Indiana, supporting 348 00:23:39,720 --> 00:23:43,720 Speaker 1: organizations that are dedicated primarily to helping young people and students. 349 00:23:44,040 --> 00:23:46,560 Speaker 1: For more information on the work of the Pacers Foundation 350 00:23:46,840 --> 00:23:50,359 Speaker 1: or the Last Mile Program, visit Pacersfoundation dot org or 351 00:23:50,359 --> 00:23:57,480 Speaker 1: the Lastmile dot org. This episode is sponsored by AIG, 352 00:23:57,760 --> 00:24:02,560 Speaker 1: a leading global insurance company, Paul Weiss, Rifkin, Wharton and Garrison, 353 00:24:02,640 --> 00:24:06,200 Speaker 1: a leading international law firm. The aig pro bono program 354 00:24:06,240 --> 00:24:10,159 Speaker 1: provides free legal services and other support to many nonprofit 355 00:24:10,240 --> 00:24:14,600 Speaker 1: organizations and individuals most in need, and recently they announced 356 00:24:14,640 --> 00:24:17,200 Speaker 1: that working to reform the criminal justice system will become 357 00:24:17,240 --> 00:24:20,720 Speaker 1: a key pillar of the program's mission. Paul Weiss has 358 00:24:20,800 --> 00:24:24,680 Speaker 1: long had an unwavering commitment to providing impactful pro bono 359 00:24:24,760 --> 00:24:27,960 Speaker 1: legal assistance to the most vulnerable members of our society 360 00:24:28,200 --> 00:24:31,880 Speaker 1: and in support of the public interest, including extensive work 361 00:24:31,920 --> 00:24:41,000 Speaker 1: in the criminal justice area. So the good news is 362 00:24:41,040 --> 00:24:44,119 Speaker 1: that there is actually an equal or greater number of 363 00:24:44,200 --> 00:24:48,639 Speaker 1: heroes in this story than villains Betsy Marx, Hillary po Rix, 364 00:24:48,920 --> 00:24:53,440 Speaker 1: Jamie McAllister, and the other two actual fire scientists, John 365 00:24:53,520 --> 00:24:57,480 Speaker 1: Dehan and John Malouley, plus the electrical engineer Richard Hansen, 366 00:24:58,000 --> 00:25:02,920 Speaker 1: then Karen Daniel and Jane Raley. Legends in the field 367 00:25:03,320 --> 00:25:07,600 Speaker 1: were on your side. And of course Ron himself, Ron Safer, 368 00:25:07,640 --> 00:25:10,480 Speaker 1: I mean, the fucking cavalry came in on this one, right. 369 00:25:10,920 --> 00:25:14,960 Speaker 1: Can you talk now about the process that led seventeen 370 00:25:15,040 --> 00:25:17,560 Speaker 1: years later to Christine finally coming home. 371 00:25:18,320 --> 00:25:26,160 Speaker 4: Yes, Christine pursued this tirelessly, against all odds, found a 372 00:25:26,280 --> 00:25:31,760 Speaker 4: wonderful local attorney, Hillary bo Rix, who believed in Christine, 373 00:25:32,040 --> 00:25:35,320 Speaker 4: but really did not have the resources to take on 374 00:25:35,520 --> 00:25:39,200 Speaker 4: the awesome power of the state. And a supporter of 375 00:25:39,320 --> 00:25:43,400 Speaker 4: Christine wrote a letter to Northwestern Center on Wrongful Convictions, 376 00:25:43,520 --> 00:25:48,639 Speaker 4: and Jane Railey, along with Karen Daniel, took Christine's case 377 00:25:49,280 --> 00:25:55,000 Speaker 4: and they disassembled every piece of evidence the state put forward. 378 00:25:55,600 --> 00:26:01,400 Speaker 4: Karen and Jane assembled the world's experts on fire science, 379 00:26:02,080 --> 00:26:06,440 Speaker 4: not the myths of arson investigation, but on fire science, 380 00:26:06,680 --> 00:26:10,960 Speaker 4: to prove first that everything the state said was wrong, 381 00:26:11,480 --> 00:26:16,639 Speaker 4: and then second that Christine was innocent, not beyond a 382 00:26:16,680 --> 00:26:22,000 Speaker 4: reasonable doubt, beyond any doubt. So first they got a 383 00:26:22,040 --> 00:26:26,600 Speaker 4: former ATF agent and he testified that every one of 384 00:26:26,640 --> 00:26:31,200 Speaker 4: the myths that was used by the so called arson 385 00:26:31,280 --> 00:26:35,919 Speaker 4: investigator Brian Frank was wrong. A V pattern does not 386 00:26:36,040 --> 00:26:39,159 Speaker 4: indicate a point of origin. It indicates a point where 387 00:26:39,280 --> 00:26:43,520 Speaker 4: something burned against a wall. Fire burns down not because 388 00:26:43,560 --> 00:26:47,679 Speaker 4: of a liquid accelerant, but because it's seeking oxygen and 389 00:26:47,720 --> 00:26:51,040 Speaker 4: there was a hole in the trailer. So the burn 390 00:26:51,200 --> 00:26:55,360 Speaker 4: patterns that Frank says indicated that there was a liquid 391 00:26:55,400 --> 00:26:59,600 Speaker 4: accelerant have been disproved. Brian Frank said that the fire 392 00:26:59,760 --> 00:27:03,560 Speaker 4: was hotter because a liquid accelerant was used. That is 393 00:27:03,680 --> 00:27:10,120 Speaker 4: a myth. Controlled experiments prove that fire is no hotter. Indeed, 394 00:27:10,400 --> 00:27:15,080 Speaker 4: the heat depends on what is being burnt. So chemistry 395 00:27:15,600 --> 00:27:20,560 Speaker 4: physics disproved every one of the pieces of evidence. But 396 00:27:20,640 --> 00:27:24,600 Speaker 4: there was one more critical thing that Karen Daniel did 397 00:27:24,920 --> 00:27:31,080 Speaker 4: that was pivotal. She subpoened the underlying test data that 398 00:27:31,119 --> 00:27:34,879 Speaker 4: had been used by the ATF Lab and all of 399 00:27:34,960 --> 00:27:39,680 Speaker 4: the documents related to those tests, and what that found 400 00:27:40,560 --> 00:27:46,439 Speaker 4: was stunning. First, she got the actual gas chromatographs, so 401 00:27:46,480 --> 00:27:51,560 Speaker 4: the actual tests, and contrary to his testimony, he did 402 00:27:51,640 --> 00:27:55,520 Speaker 4: test against the standard of kerosene, not a heavy distilla, 403 00:27:55,720 --> 00:28:00,359 Speaker 4: but kerosene. Then when you look at those actual tests data, 404 00:28:00,600 --> 00:28:04,359 Speaker 4: you find that yes, there was kerosene in the living 405 00:28:04,440 --> 00:28:09,520 Speaker 4: room where the kerosene heater had been years before. But 406 00:28:09,680 --> 00:28:13,119 Speaker 4: then you look at the sample from Tony's bedroom, the 407 00:28:13,160 --> 00:28:19,680 Speaker 4: sample that convicted Christine, and the test was negative for 408 00:28:20,000 --> 00:28:27,960 Speaker 4: any liquid accelerate, kerosene, heavy petroleum distillate, nothing. What's more, 409 00:28:28,560 --> 00:28:34,280 Speaker 4: in that file, there was a draft report that reflected 410 00:28:34,800 --> 00:28:38,240 Speaker 4: accurately the test results, that is that there had been 411 00:28:38,320 --> 00:28:41,760 Speaker 4: kerosene in the living room and that the sample in 412 00:28:41,840 --> 00:28:47,000 Speaker 4: Tony's bedroom was negative, and then there was a report 413 00:28:47,080 --> 00:28:51,800 Speaker 4: that in handwriting that crossed that out and made that 414 00:28:51,880 --> 00:28:56,840 Speaker 4: test result positive. How that happened, unfortunately, we'll never know 415 00:28:57,520 --> 00:29:00,280 Speaker 4: because by the time we got to the hearing, the 416 00:29:00,360 --> 00:29:05,440 Speaker 4: ATF agent, who has now deceased, was incompetent in an 417 00:29:05,480 --> 00:29:10,360 Speaker 4: assisted living home and could not testify about what happened. 418 00:29:10,920 --> 00:29:17,600 Speaker 4: But what was clear was Christine was convicted based on 419 00:29:18,080 --> 00:29:24,800 Speaker 4: not only faulty but false evidence. So that takes care 420 00:29:24,840 --> 00:29:25,800 Speaker 4: of the States case. 421 00:29:26,200 --> 00:29:29,800 Speaker 1: So Christine's team exposed the junk science and the outright 422 00:29:29,840 --> 00:29:32,680 Speaker 1: falsification of the real scientific data that led to her conviction. 423 00:29:33,120 --> 00:29:35,320 Speaker 1: And by the way, these are your tax dollars at work. 424 00:29:35,560 --> 00:29:38,560 Speaker 1: And if you don't think this could happen to you, well, 425 00:29:38,640 --> 00:29:42,400 Speaker 1: don't even get me started. There's more to this, and 426 00:29:42,480 --> 00:29:46,000 Speaker 1: I'm talking about with the defenses expert Jamie McAllister testified 427 00:29:46,040 --> 00:29:48,880 Speaker 1: to about how the fire really started. 428 00:29:49,160 --> 00:29:54,360 Speaker 4: Jamie McAllister, who is an expert in examining the victim's 429 00:29:54,440 --> 00:29:58,840 Speaker 4: chemistry and reverse engineering how a fire must have started, 430 00:29:59,120 --> 00:30:04,600 Speaker 4: testified about how this fire started. Tony died before the 431 00:30:04,600 --> 00:30:10,040 Speaker 4: fire got hot. He died of carbon monoxide poisoning. There 432 00:30:10,120 --> 00:30:14,400 Speaker 4: was no burning in his trachea, no burning in his lungs, 433 00:30:15,080 --> 00:30:19,960 Speaker 4: and so he had stopped breathing before the fire got hot. 434 00:30:20,400 --> 00:30:23,760 Speaker 4: His carboxy hemoglobin rate, which is what we referred to 435 00:30:23,760 --> 00:30:28,520 Speaker 4: as carbon monoxide poisoning. It's when the carbon monoxide bonds 436 00:30:28,640 --> 00:30:34,040 Speaker 4: with your blood. The hemoglobin was eighty percent. Fifty percent 437 00:30:34,240 --> 00:30:39,040 Speaker 4: is lethal. So how did it get that high? Well? 438 00:30:39,200 --> 00:30:43,760 Speaker 4: Jamie McAllister testifies that controlled experiment show that if the 439 00:30:43,800 --> 00:30:47,280 Speaker 4: fire had started out in the open air of the 440 00:30:47,320 --> 00:30:50,680 Speaker 4: living room or the bedroom, it would have produced a 441 00:30:50,720 --> 00:30:55,760 Speaker 4: lot of carbon dioxide to oxygen molecules. Because there's a 442 00:30:55,800 --> 00:31:01,560 Speaker 4: lot of air floating around and very little carbon monoxide 443 00:31:01,960 --> 00:31:07,840 Speaker 4: one oxygen molecule. It would have taken ninety minutes for 444 00:31:08,240 --> 00:31:12,520 Speaker 4: the fire to have produced enough carbon monoxide for Tony 445 00:31:12,880 --> 00:31:17,160 Speaker 4: to have gotten to a carboxy hemoglobin rate approaching eighty percent. 446 00:31:17,840 --> 00:31:21,760 Speaker 4: He would have burned to death long before that, and 447 00:31:21,840 --> 00:31:24,720 Speaker 4: of course his lungs in everything else would have burned. 448 00:31:25,360 --> 00:31:29,880 Speaker 4: That didn't happen. So how did this fire happen? Well, 449 00:31:30,360 --> 00:31:35,280 Speaker 4: as an electrician testified, there were electrical wires that were 450 00:31:35,320 --> 00:31:40,680 Speaker 4: overloaded that ran between the roof and the drop down 451 00:31:40,880 --> 00:31:45,280 Speaker 4: ceiling tiles. There was an electrical fire that started that morning. 452 00:31:45,800 --> 00:31:50,200 Speaker 4: But because there's limited oxygen there, what happens is the 453 00:31:50,240 --> 00:31:55,840 Speaker 4: fire smolders and it produces a lot of carbon monoxide 454 00:31:56,480 --> 00:32:01,440 Speaker 4: up in the ceiling. Now, eventually the fire gets hot 455 00:32:01,560 --> 00:32:04,960 Speaker 4: enough so that one of the ceiling tiles burns and 456 00:32:05,160 --> 00:32:11,960 Speaker 4: drops to the floor. That undoubtedly is what Christine awakens to. Now, 457 00:32:12,040 --> 00:32:16,080 Speaker 4: when that happens, the carbon monoxide fills the Tony's room 458 00:32:16,480 --> 00:32:20,680 Speaker 4: like a balloon that is letting out its air. Physical 459 00:32:20,800 --> 00:32:26,040 Speaker 4: tests and chemical tests prove within minutes he dies of 460 00:32:26,080 --> 00:32:32,440 Speaker 4: carbon monoxide poisoning. That's how this fire had to have happened. 461 00:32:32,920 --> 00:32:37,440 Speaker 4: And thus, not only was there no evidence that Christine 462 00:32:37,760 --> 00:32:41,960 Speaker 4: was guilty of an arson, there was conclusive evidence that 463 00:32:42,400 --> 00:32:46,160 Speaker 4: the fire was an accidental fire that took place in 464 00:32:46,240 --> 00:32:50,720 Speaker 4: the confined area of the ceiling, and that Tony died 465 00:32:51,160 --> 00:32:54,440 Speaker 4: as everybody knew, of carbon monoxide poisoning. 466 00:32:55,600 --> 00:32:57,960 Speaker 1: But in spite of all of this, on June eighth 467 00:32:57,960 --> 00:33:01,440 Speaker 1: of twenty ten, now over four years after your conviction, 468 00:33:01,640 --> 00:33:06,520 Speaker 1: Judge Weshoffer denied you a new trial. He said, quote 469 00:33:07,280 --> 00:33:09,760 Speaker 1: while and this is a quote, while MSS Bunch had 470 00:33:09,840 --> 00:33:13,200 Speaker 1: new resources available to her, at the post conviction hearing, 471 00:33:14,040 --> 00:33:17,840 Speaker 1: new experts do not create new evidence. The issues raised 472 00:33:17,840 --> 00:33:22,400 Speaker 1: and the conclusions reached, while packaged differently, remained basically the 473 00:33:22,440 --> 00:33:25,080 Speaker 1: same as they were at trial in nineteen ninety six 474 00:33:25,680 --> 00:33:28,960 Speaker 1: end quote. He went on to add that he did 475 00:33:28,960 --> 00:33:31,520 Speaker 1: not believe the ATF documents would have changed the outcome 476 00:33:31,560 --> 00:33:34,760 Speaker 1: of the trial. And I mean it was exposed that 477 00:33:34,840 --> 00:33:38,920 Speaker 1: they falsified the findings and said the samples were positive 478 00:33:38,920 --> 00:33:43,400 Speaker 1: when they weren't. What the actual fuck like. And this again, 479 00:33:43,440 --> 00:33:45,160 Speaker 1: if you don't think this can happen to you, and 480 00:33:45,160 --> 00:33:48,160 Speaker 1: I'm talking to the audience now, of course you're wrong. 481 00:33:48,400 --> 00:33:52,479 Speaker 1: A very large percentage of judges are elected and the 482 00:33:52,520 --> 00:33:57,400 Speaker 1: others are appointed by elected officials. Either way, your decisions 483 00:33:57,400 --> 00:34:00,600 Speaker 1: in the voting booth are going to determine who ends 484 00:34:00,680 --> 00:34:04,120 Speaker 1: up on the bench. So and of my rant, back 485 00:34:04,160 --> 00:34:08,400 Speaker 1: to the story. Meanwhile, another Indianapolis lawyer joins the team, 486 00:34:08,760 --> 00:34:11,800 Speaker 1: John Larimore. And then we get to the good stuff. 487 00:34:11,880 --> 00:34:15,759 Speaker 1: Right On July thirteenth, twenty eleven, Ron who's here with 488 00:34:15,840 --> 00:34:19,840 Speaker 1: us now, argued in front of a three member panel 489 00:34:19,880 --> 00:34:21,520 Speaker 1: of the Court of Appeals of Indiana. 490 00:34:22,040 --> 00:34:25,319 Speaker 4: At the argument itself, it was very clear from the 491 00:34:25,400 --> 00:34:29,439 Speaker 4: questioning of the judges that one judge was dead set 492 00:34:29,480 --> 00:34:32,000 Speaker 4: against us. There was nothing I was going to be 493 00:34:32,040 --> 00:34:36,239 Speaker 4: able to say to change his mind. One judge was 494 00:34:36,360 --> 00:34:40,680 Speaker 4: for us, and no matter how incoherently I babbled, he 495 00:34:40,800 --> 00:34:44,640 Speaker 4: was going to vote for us. And so the middle judge, 496 00:34:44,680 --> 00:34:49,680 Speaker 4: the chief judge, held Christine's fate in her hand. Our 497 00:34:49,800 --> 00:34:53,080 Speaker 4: working theory and it made sense was that if the 498 00:34:53,120 --> 00:34:56,759 Speaker 4: court was going to reverse this conviction, they would have 499 00:34:56,800 --> 00:35:00,520 Speaker 4: done it right away because they know she's sitting in jail. 500 00:35:00,960 --> 00:35:04,799 Speaker 4: So we're sitting there understanding that the longer this goes on, 501 00:35:05,000 --> 00:35:09,200 Speaker 4: the more likely it is we lost. As time wore on, 502 00:35:10,360 --> 00:35:11,680 Speaker 4: despair grew. 503 00:35:12,200 --> 00:35:18,880 Speaker 1: And eight of what must have been truly agonizing months later, Christine, 504 00:35:18,960 --> 00:35:23,239 Speaker 1: on March twenty first of twenty twelve, in a two 505 00:35:23,280 --> 00:35:26,840 Speaker 1: to one decision, the panel reversed the conviction and granted 506 00:35:26,880 --> 00:35:29,800 Speaker 1: you a new trial, citing the evolution of fire science 507 00:35:30,160 --> 00:35:32,960 Speaker 1: as well as the fact that sculpatory evidence was withheld 508 00:35:33,320 --> 00:35:38,640 Speaker 1: that quote unquote directly contradicted atf forensic analyst William Kinnard's 509 00:35:38,640 --> 00:35:42,960 Speaker 1: trial testimony. Christine, how did you find out about this 510 00:35:43,120 --> 00:35:44,160 Speaker 1: momentous decision? 511 00:35:44,800 --> 00:35:47,360 Speaker 3: I got a call to come to the counselor's office, 512 00:35:48,239 --> 00:35:50,040 Speaker 3: and my lawyers were on the phone. 513 00:35:49,840 --> 00:35:52,719 Speaker 8: To tell me that they had reversed my conviction and 514 00:35:52,719 --> 00:35:54,040 Speaker 8: remanded for a new trial. 515 00:35:54,920 --> 00:35:57,960 Speaker 3: I started crying, and I asked them if they called 516 00:35:58,320 --> 00:36:03,520 Speaker 3: my son him to know that I won and I 517 00:36:03,600 --> 00:36:08,920 Speaker 3: was going to come home, and so they assured me 518 00:36:08,960 --> 00:36:12,839 Speaker 3: that yes, they were calling him, and I ended up. 519 00:36:12,920 --> 00:36:15,480 Speaker 3: I stayed at the counselor's office for like an hour 520 00:36:15,520 --> 00:36:17,720 Speaker 3: and a half because I head back to back calls, 521 00:36:18,280 --> 00:36:20,520 Speaker 3: and she said, you know, she said, we're just gonna 522 00:36:20,520 --> 00:36:23,839 Speaker 3: make this your day, so everybody can call and congratulate 523 00:36:23,920 --> 00:36:26,560 Speaker 3: you and tell you the news. And they were just 524 00:36:26,640 --> 00:36:27,600 Speaker 3: so happy for me. 525 00:36:28,280 --> 00:36:30,919 Speaker 1: Ron, What about you? What's your recollection of that phone call? 526 00:36:31,800 --> 00:36:37,200 Speaker 4: I cared beyond measure about Christine in this case and 527 00:36:37,360 --> 00:36:40,960 Speaker 4: getting her out of jail, and when it ultimately happened, 528 00:36:41,040 --> 00:36:43,520 Speaker 4: it was as if it was happening to my sister. 529 00:36:44,640 --> 00:36:50,919 Speaker 4: Just the most moving experience. Although the reality comes home 530 00:36:51,120 --> 00:36:55,400 Speaker 4: of Okay, she's not out of jail, she gets a 531 00:36:55,440 --> 00:36:59,320 Speaker 4: new trial, she's still sitting in jail. We got to 532 00:36:59,320 --> 00:37:00,000 Speaker 4: get her out of jail. 533 00:37:01,160 --> 00:37:04,640 Speaker 1: So almost five months go by after March twenty first, 534 00:37:04,640 --> 00:37:07,279 Speaker 1: twenty twelve, and the amazing phone call, all the way 535 00:37:07,280 --> 00:37:10,799 Speaker 1: to August eighth, when the Indiana Supreme Court left the 536 00:37:10,840 --> 00:37:15,200 Speaker 1: Appellate Court's decision undisturbed, and then finally about a month 537 00:37:15,200 --> 00:37:19,760 Speaker 1: after that, September one, twenty twelve, seventeen years, one month 538 00:37:19,840 --> 00:37:24,239 Speaker 1: and sixteen days after you were arrested, Christine, you were 539 00:37:24,320 --> 00:37:27,120 Speaker 1: finally released into the arms of your family. What was 540 00:37:27,160 --> 00:37:27,560 Speaker 1: that like? 541 00:37:28,080 --> 00:37:31,160 Speaker 3: Well, I mean when you first walk out, I think 542 00:37:31,239 --> 00:37:35,440 Speaker 3: all you're looking at is the dream finally happened, and 543 00:37:35,960 --> 00:37:43,520 Speaker 3: I have so many possibilities. After that initial who wears off, 544 00:37:44,880 --> 00:37:48,240 Speaker 3: then you're left with all of these fears and insecurities. 545 00:37:49,600 --> 00:37:54,720 Speaker 3: It was great walking out and seeing everyone, but then 546 00:37:54,960 --> 00:37:59,319 Speaker 3: you know, I'm facing another murder trial, so we have 547 00:37:59,400 --> 00:38:03,239 Speaker 3: to start prepared for that. And I have, you know, 548 00:38:03,440 --> 00:38:06,799 Speaker 3: my son, who I have to provide a home for, 549 00:38:07,239 --> 00:38:09,680 Speaker 3: and I have to make sure that he has everything 550 00:38:09,719 --> 00:38:14,759 Speaker 3: he needs. He's just sixteen. So I don't have a 551 00:38:14,840 --> 00:38:17,239 Speaker 3: driver's license, I don't have any kind of ID, I 552 00:38:17,280 --> 00:38:20,880 Speaker 3: don't have Renner's history, credit score, all of these things. 553 00:38:20,920 --> 00:38:22,400 Speaker 3: I don't even know where I'm going to get a 554 00:38:22,480 --> 00:38:27,520 Speaker 3: job after seventeen years, so fear starts to take you over, 555 00:38:28,800 --> 00:38:32,360 Speaker 3: and I think that. At first, I was just like, 556 00:38:32,440 --> 00:38:34,440 Speaker 3: I'm not going to make it. There's no way I'm 557 00:38:34,440 --> 00:38:37,719 Speaker 3: going to be able to make it. And that first night, 558 00:38:38,200 --> 00:38:41,640 Speaker 3: my son was showing me on his laptop how to 559 00:38:41,680 --> 00:38:46,400 Speaker 3: set up a Facebook account, and while I'm looking at it, 560 00:38:46,480 --> 00:38:50,120 Speaker 3: I see that he has the appellate court site bookmarked, 561 00:38:51,360 --> 00:38:53,839 Speaker 3: and I said, why do you have that? And he 562 00:38:53,880 --> 00:38:56,640 Speaker 3: looked at me and he said, because I checked every 563 00:38:56,760 --> 00:38:59,480 Speaker 3: day to see if they made a decision and you 564 00:38:59,560 --> 00:39:05,600 Speaker 3: were come. And I started to crying and I said, 565 00:39:05,640 --> 00:39:08,520 Speaker 3: you know, I said, I've been so worried and so unsure, 566 00:39:09,640 --> 00:39:13,480 Speaker 3: but hearing that you believed in me and we're just 567 00:39:13,800 --> 00:39:16,840 Speaker 3: waiting for me to come home. I can make it 568 00:39:16,840 --> 00:39:17,719 Speaker 3: through anything. 569 00:39:26,560 --> 00:39:30,319 Speaker 1: Then another, and a long line of amazing developments in 570 00:39:30,360 --> 00:39:33,319 Speaker 1: your case happened just before Christmas, which must have made 571 00:39:33,360 --> 00:39:37,759 Speaker 1: that time of year even sweeter. The prosecution finally came 572 00:39:37,840 --> 00:39:41,720 Speaker 1: around to their senses and dropped the charges, which brings 573 00:39:41,800 --> 00:39:45,840 Speaker 1: us to your next struggle, compensation for all that lost time, 574 00:39:46,040 --> 00:39:48,160 Speaker 1: And of course no amount of money can be enough 575 00:39:48,200 --> 00:39:50,720 Speaker 1: to repay what you lost, but you had an uphill 576 00:39:50,800 --> 00:39:53,920 Speaker 1: battle and a unique struggle just to even get compensation. 577 00:39:54,360 --> 00:39:55,400 Speaker 1: Can you fill us in on that. 578 00:39:55,880 --> 00:40:00,800 Speaker 3: Yes, So, like everyone, I filed a civil suit. Clearly 579 00:40:01,000 --> 00:40:05,840 Speaker 3: people are protected, so you have to break through immunity 580 00:40:05,960 --> 00:40:09,280 Speaker 3: to try to sue. The issue is the ATF chemist 581 00:40:09,480 --> 00:40:12,640 Speaker 3: is deceased, so I didn't have a leg to stand on, 582 00:40:13,160 --> 00:40:18,040 Speaker 3: and that was ultimately dismissed. Compensation. I have been working 583 00:40:18,080 --> 00:40:20,920 Speaker 3: since I've been out, and well, I've helped pass new 584 00:40:21,000 --> 00:40:24,360 Speaker 3: legislation in three different states, working with the Innocence Project. 585 00:40:25,239 --> 00:40:30,680 Speaker 3: This past year, we passed compensation in Indiana, and then 586 00:40:31,080 --> 00:40:36,200 Speaker 3: when my civil suit was dismissed, I applied for the compensation. 587 00:40:37,360 --> 00:40:40,880 Speaker 3: You know, it was I think, very surreal to receive 588 00:40:40,920 --> 00:40:44,720 Speaker 3: a letter from them saying that just because my conviction 589 00:40:45,040 --> 00:40:48,319 Speaker 3: was reversed and I wasn't retried did not mean that 590 00:40:48,360 --> 00:40:51,759 Speaker 3: I was actually innocent. And it really, I mean, it 591 00:40:51,840 --> 00:40:56,160 Speaker 3: hurt my feelings because I testified before these legislators three 592 00:40:56,239 --> 00:41:01,439 Speaker 3: separate occasions. The senators and representatives that pass this bill 593 00:41:01,680 --> 00:41:06,520 Speaker 3: used my case to pass this compensation bill, and then 594 00:41:06,560 --> 00:41:10,200 Speaker 3: you're going to basically retry me all over again. 595 00:41:10,800 --> 00:41:13,520 Speaker 1: So are they really trying to relitigate this case? 596 00:41:14,120 --> 00:41:17,960 Speaker 3: No, they are not but as you go through the process, 597 00:41:18,320 --> 00:41:22,719 Speaker 3: you fill out a compensation application and then they review it. 598 00:41:23,360 --> 00:41:27,560 Speaker 3: So for them, they reached out to the prosecutor, and 599 00:41:27,600 --> 00:41:30,640 Speaker 3: the prosecutor said, you know, no, we didn't have evidence 600 00:41:30,680 --> 00:41:33,880 Speaker 3: at the time to retry this, but you know, we 601 00:41:33,920 --> 00:41:36,399 Speaker 3: aren't going to say we made a mistake. They never 602 00:41:36,440 --> 00:41:39,879 Speaker 3: want to say they made a mistake. So I had 603 00:41:39,920 --> 00:41:42,600 Speaker 3: to reach out to everyone I knew, the Center on 604 00:41:42,680 --> 00:41:46,319 Speaker 3: Wrongful Convictions with you know, the amazing Laura and I 605 00:41:46,360 --> 00:41:50,719 Speaker 3: writer and Steve Drisen, Ron Safer and all of them 606 00:41:51,000 --> 00:41:55,200 Speaker 3: wrote letters and submitted the evidence that was used to 607 00:41:55,360 --> 00:41:58,640 Speaker 3: exonerate me, in order to show them that I am 608 00:41:58,760 --> 00:42:03,000 Speaker 3: innocent and were of this conversation. Twenty five years after 609 00:42:03,040 --> 00:42:07,600 Speaker 3: the fact, they are reviewing the application. They've been reviewing 610 00:42:07,600 --> 00:42:08,759 Speaker 3: it since November. 611 00:42:09,560 --> 00:42:12,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, well, let's hope they come to their senses and 612 00:42:12,200 --> 00:42:14,080 Speaker 1: come to the right decision, because I think the right 613 00:42:14,120 --> 00:42:17,279 Speaker 1: thing to do is clear to everyone who's listening and 614 00:42:17,320 --> 00:42:20,920 Speaker 1: to anyone with a heart and a soul. So let's 615 00:42:20,920 --> 00:42:24,360 Speaker 1: get to what you're doing now. You started an organization 616 00:42:24,480 --> 00:42:26,719 Speaker 1: called just is for just us. 617 00:42:27,120 --> 00:42:31,239 Speaker 3: Just is just like it sounds, because the situation just is. 618 00:42:31,800 --> 00:42:35,440 Speaker 3: And then it's for just Us, which means all of 619 00:42:35,520 --> 00:42:40,280 Speaker 3: us exoneries. Justice for just Us was started by myself 620 00:42:40,320 --> 00:42:43,400 Speaker 3: and another exonery that came from the Center on Wrongful 621 00:42:43,440 --> 00:42:47,680 Speaker 3: Convictions and Juana and I just basically wanted to address 622 00:42:47,719 --> 00:42:49,960 Speaker 3: what it was like because when people walk out, you 623 00:42:50,080 --> 00:42:53,319 Speaker 3: don't have a toothbrush, you don't have the basic necessities. 624 00:42:54,239 --> 00:42:57,360 Speaker 3: So j for Jay for short. You know, we're helping 625 00:42:57,400 --> 00:43:00,120 Speaker 3: with boxes. If somebody reaches out and says, hey, I 626 00:43:00,160 --> 00:43:04,160 Speaker 3: need an outfit, I need basic hygiens, we put that together. 627 00:43:04,719 --> 00:43:08,440 Speaker 3: We've helped take some axonneries to the Innocence Conference, sent 628 00:43:08,520 --> 00:43:13,320 Speaker 3: out gas cards, cash cards, We've paid rent, we've paid bills, 629 00:43:13,760 --> 00:43:19,520 Speaker 3: and our organization allows healthcare providers to donate services so 630 00:43:19,560 --> 00:43:22,839 Speaker 3: they can get a dental visit or some counseling sessions 631 00:43:23,520 --> 00:43:27,840 Speaker 3: or a physical things that are desperately needed when you return. 632 00:43:28,640 --> 00:43:31,840 Speaker 1: It's such an important thing, you know. I've tried to 633 00:43:31,880 --> 00:43:34,400 Speaker 1: devote myself to doing as much as I can to 634 00:43:34,440 --> 00:43:37,400 Speaker 1: help people coming out of the system, because it's exactly 635 00:43:37,480 --> 00:43:40,320 Speaker 1: as you described. It's like I call it the second punishment, 636 00:43:40,520 --> 00:43:42,839 Speaker 1: and what I mean by that is most people coming 637 00:43:42,840 --> 00:43:45,680 Speaker 1: out have no support whatsoever. They may get forty dollars 638 00:43:45,680 --> 00:43:48,960 Speaker 1: and a bus ticket and then you know, not even 639 00:43:49,000 --> 00:43:52,160 Speaker 1: a good luck. So there are a number of wonderful 640 00:43:52,239 --> 00:43:57,040 Speaker 1: organizations doing this work, and I encourage everyone to support 641 00:43:57,600 --> 00:44:00,879 Speaker 1: just is for just Us. So please every scroll down 642 00:44:00,880 --> 00:44:04,520 Speaker 1: on the episode description and get involved with Justice for 643 00:44:04,760 --> 00:44:06,960 Speaker 1: just Us. And now this is the part of the show, 644 00:44:07,120 --> 00:44:10,319 Speaker 1: of course, that we call closing arguments. So first of all, 645 00:44:10,400 --> 00:44:13,840 Speaker 1: thank you to our phenomenal guest today. The closing argument 646 00:44:14,080 --> 00:44:17,000 Speaker 1: segment works like this, I turn off my microphone, kick 647 00:44:17,080 --> 00:44:19,600 Speaker 1: back on my chair, leave my headphones on. Sometimes I 648 00:44:19,640 --> 00:44:22,239 Speaker 1: close my eyes, and we're going to let each of 649 00:44:22,280 --> 00:44:24,960 Speaker 1: you have the final word on whatever you want to 650 00:44:24,960 --> 00:44:27,520 Speaker 1: talk about. So let's go to Ron first and then 651 00:44:27,600 --> 00:44:30,080 Speaker 1: Christine you can just take us out. 652 00:44:30,920 --> 00:44:33,840 Speaker 4: Well, first of all, thanks so much Jason for telling 653 00:44:33,920 --> 00:44:37,680 Speaker 4: this story, for telling the other stories. It is so 654 00:44:37,920 --> 00:44:43,800 Speaker 4: critically important to raise public awareness of these wrongful convictions. 655 00:44:45,160 --> 00:44:48,320 Speaker 4: We have the best criminal justice system in the world, 656 00:44:49,080 --> 00:44:54,120 Speaker 4: but it is run by human beings, and human beings 657 00:44:54,280 --> 00:44:59,880 Speaker 4: are flawed. They make mistakes, They at times act in 658 00:45:00,000 --> 00:45:06,840 Speaker 4: intentionally maliciously. When that happens, it takes enormous resources to 659 00:45:06,880 --> 00:45:10,480 Speaker 4: get the system back on track, and so few people 660 00:45:11,120 --> 00:45:16,560 Speaker 4: are able to afford those resources or are given those resources. 661 00:45:17,320 --> 00:45:26,120 Speaker 4: So what has to happen is everybody involved in the system, prosecutors, judges, 662 00:45:26,920 --> 00:45:32,560 Speaker 4: jurors have to have an open mind. They have to 663 00:45:32,600 --> 00:45:38,760 Speaker 4: be persons of goodwill. We as citizens have to hold 664 00:45:38,840 --> 00:45:43,760 Speaker 4: them accountable that their jobs are not to get convictions, 665 00:45:44,560 --> 00:45:49,279 Speaker 4: their jobs are to do justice, and we have to 666 00:45:49,520 --> 00:45:52,960 Speaker 4: insist on that. We have to enter that jury box 667 00:45:53,040 --> 00:45:58,279 Speaker 4: as citizens, giving credence to the presumption of innocence that 668 00:45:58,400 --> 00:46:04,920 Speaker 4: our constitution requires. They're not words, they are a critical concept. 669 00:46:04,920 --> 00:46:08,000 Speaker 4: But if we don't pay attention to it, if we 670 00:46:08,080 --> 00:46:13,719 Speaker 4: don't honor it, then wonderful people like Christine will have 671 00:46:13,840 --> 00:46:20,560 Speaker 4: their lives robbed from them, losing decades that nobody can 672 00:46:20,600 --> 00:46:24,439 Speaker 4: give back to them. And so this is a call 673 00:46:24,560 --> 00:46:29,399 Speaker 4: to action. We have to be more active, We have 674 00:46:29,520 --> 00:46:35,719 Speaker 4: to be more responsible. We have to be accountable and 675 00:46:35,800 --> 00:46:39,359 Speaker 4: make sure that everybody in the system is accountable. 676 00:46:40,840 --> 00:46:44,879 Speaker 3: Christine, when I go speak to the community and tell 677 00:46:44,920 --> 00:46:48,200 Speaker 3: them how they can help with j for Jay, or 678 00:46:48,400 --> 00:46:51,279 Speaker 3: how they can help the Innocence Project, or how they 679 00:46:51,320 --> 00:46:55,960 Speaker 3: can step up and make changes within our system, because 680 00:46:56,000 --> 00:47:00,400 Speaker 3: it is a great system. It is designed to work, 681 00:47:01,040 --> 00:47:05,360 Speaker 3: and we have to take responsibility and make sure it works. 682 00:47:06,000 --> 00:47:08,719 Speaker 3: So I know that everybody is sitting there saying I 683 00:47:08,719 --> 00:47:12,880 Speaker 3: don't have money to donate, but everybody does have to 684 00:47:12,920 --> 00:47:15,480 Speaker 3: step up and say I have something to give here. 685 00:47:16,000 --> 00:47:19,759 Speaker 3: I can vote, I can educate myself so that when 686 00:47:19,760 --> 00:47:23,440 Speaker 3: I'm sitting on a jury, I know what I'm listening 687 00:47:23,480 --> 00:47:27,680 Speaker 3: to because the CSI you watch on TV that's not 688 00:47:27,719 --> 00:47:33,040 Speaker 3: always accurate. So really learning about these issues, really raising 689 00:47:33,080 --> 00:47:36,360 Speaker 3: your voice and saying, you know, we need to change 690 00:47:36,360 --> 00:47:39,480 Speaker 3: some things, that's how we make the world better. 691 00:47:40,000 --> 00:47:42,719 Speaker 5: And I encourage all of you to learn about this 692 00:47:43,480 --> 00:47:46,560 Speaker 5: and figure out if you can help by voting, by 693 00:47:46,840 --> 00:47:51,600 Speaker 5: sharing our stories, by talking to an axonary, by just. 694 00:47:51,520 --> 00:48:00,200 Speaker 1: Being there, don't forget to give us a fantastic you 695 00:48:00,239 --> 00:48:03,919 Speaker 1: wherever you get your podcasts. It really helps. And I'm 696 00:48:03,960 --> 00:48:06,600 Speaker 1: a proud donor to the Innocence Project, and I really 697 00:48:06,600 --> 00:48:09,760 Speaker 1: hope you'll join me in supporting this very important cause 698 00:48:09,920 --> 00:48:13,600 Speaker 1: and helping to prevent future wrongful convictions. Go to Innocence 699 00:48:13,640 --> 00:48:16,760 Speaker 1: Project dot org to learn how to donate and get involved. 700 00:48:17,120 --> 00:48:19,640 Speaker 1: I'd like to thank our production team, Connor Hall and 701 00:48:19,760 --> 00:48:22,399 Speaker 1: Kevin wartis. The music in the show is by three 702 00:48:22,480 --> 00:48:25,880 Speaker 1: time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow 703 00:48:25,960 --> 00:48:29,399 Speaker 1: us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction and on Facebook at 704 00:48:29,520 --> 00:48:33,360 Speaker 1: Wrongful Conviction Podcast. Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flam is a 705 00:48:33,360 --> 00:48:37,200 Speaker 1: production of Lava for Good Podcasts and association with Signal 706 00:48:37,239 --> 00:48:39,720 Speaker 1: Company Number one