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Speaker 1: This story contains adult content and language. Listener discretion is advised.

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Speaker 2: It's kind of an adult Lord of the Flies, you know.

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Speaker 2: It really sort of devolves into a situation that's dangerous

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Speaker 2: for everybody.

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Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson, a nonfiction author and journalism professor

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Speaker 1: in Austin, Texas. I'm also the co host of the

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Speaker 1: podcast Buried Bones on Exactly Right, and throughout my career,

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Speaker 1: research for my many audio and book projects has taken

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Speaker 1: me around the world. On Wicked Words, I sit down

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Speaker 1: with the people I've met along the way, amazing writers, journalists, filmmakers,

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Speaker 1: and podcasters who have investigated and reported on notorious true

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Speaker 1: crime cases. This is about the choices writers make, both

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Speaker 1: good and bad, and it's a deep dive into the

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Speaker 1: unpublished details behind their stores. At the height of the

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Speaker 1: Great Depression, an oil mogul from la decided to escape

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Speaker 1: society with his mistress to create their own utopia on

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Speaker 1: a far away land. The problems started when other people

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Speaker 1: followed them there. My friend Abbot Kaylor is my guest today.

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Speaker 1: She used to write under the name Karen Abbott. Abbot

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Speaker 1: tells me the story at the center of her book

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Speaker 1: Eden Undone, a true story of sex, murder and utopia

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Speaker 1: at the dawn of World War Two. Where did you

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Speaker 1: even find the story? I had never heard of any

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Speaker 1: of it. I had never heard of George Allen Hancock.

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Speaker 1: I had never heard of any of this. So this

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Speaker 1: came as a big surprise when I read the book.

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Speaker 1: Tell me a little bit about its origin story for you.

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Speaker 2: So I was actually researching a different book. I was

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Speaker 2: looking into world War two stuff, maybe fourteen years ago

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Speaker 2: or so twelve fourteen years ago, and I came across

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Speaker 2: a headline in a nineteen forty one newspaper, and I

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Speaker 2: actually wonder if I could read it to you, because

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Speaker 2: it is it is literally the most absurd and fantastic

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Speaker 2: passage I think I've ever read in a newspaper.

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Speaker 1: We love that sort of thing on this show, so sure.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I hope you find it as titillating

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Speaker 2: as I did. But here it is. Quote was doctor

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Speaker 2: Ritter with his steel teeth poisoned in Paradise was Baroness Eloise,

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Speaker 2: known as Crazy Panties, who ruled the island with a

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Speaker 2: gun in love, murdered by one of her love slaves

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Speaker 2: after she had driven the other to his death. And

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Speaker 2: why is Frau Ritter going back to what she once

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Speaker 2: called Hell's Volcano, the mystery of the Galapagos Island, which

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Speaker 2: Germany covets to be solved at last. So I just

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Speaker 2: read that again and again, and I didn't know quite

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Speaker 2: what to focus on. Steel dentures, crazy panties, Hell's volcano,

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Speaker 2: driving the one lover to death while killing the other one. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: so I just was like, what the fuck is this story?

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Speaker 2: And I started digging. I forgot all about the World

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Speaker 2: War II project I've been looking into, and I was

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Speaker 2: My first order of business was to look up crazy panties.

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Speaker 2: I was like, if you are going to be called

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Speaker 2: crazy panties, by god.

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Speaker 1: You better earn it.

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Speaker 2: You better earn that. And she, this woman earned it

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Speaker 2: and then some and I became fascinated by the story.

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Speaker 2: I pitched it to my publisher at the time. They

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Speaker 2: said no. I pitched it to my next publisher, they

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Speaker 2: said no. I pitched it to that publisher again they

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Speaker 2: said no, And finally finally I got a yes.

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Speaker 1: Oh good, thank you. Is the least interesting person the

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Speaker 1: Los Angeles oil tycoon who sort of uncovers all of

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Speaker 1: this whole. Is this the boring one out of everybody?

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Speaker 1: If we all have a boring character in our books.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I think that's fair to say, and which

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Speaker 2: is quite quite amazing, because Alan Hancock was a fascinating

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Speaker 2: man who anybody and who's in Los Angeles or people

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Speaker 2: saidamiliar with Los Angeles with no Hancock Park that's named

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Speaker 2: after him, the labrea' tarpits that was his backyard when

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Speaker 2: he was growing up. He was an overnight millionaire after

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Speaker 2: being a pretty poor, you know, young man growing up there.

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Speaker 2: You know what was fascinating about him and his colleagues collectively, though,

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Speaker 2: it was this sort of error in American history where

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Speaker 2: everybody was suffering from the depression. You know, this is

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Speaker 2: early this is nineteen thirty, and then people who were

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Speaker 2: not suffering from the depression one of their favorite things

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Speaker 2: to do is to take these really extravagant oceanic explorations in.

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Speaker 1: The name of science.

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Speaker 2: And it was something that people were just starting to

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Speaker 2: get involved in terms of looking at exotic creatures and

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Speaker 2: the fauna and the flora of unexplored islands and bringing

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Speaker 2: those specimens back to the United States for further study.

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Speaker 2: In the footsteps of Darwin, of course, you know Darwin

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Speaker 2: started all this. It was reignited again by an author

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Speaker 2: named William Biebe who wrote a book about the Galapagos,

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Speaker 2: and people started picking up that interest again around this

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Speaker 2: time period, and it became really, really a popular thing

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Speaker 2: to do for these American millionaires in the nineteen thirties.

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Speaker 1: So tell me where the story begins for you. Is

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Speaker 1: it with Hancock in la meeting with the Smithsonian scientists,

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Speaker 1: making this expedition to the Islands. Where does it really begin?

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Speaker 2: Well to me, I mean I was first fascinated by

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Speaker 2: these German exiles, these people who in the late nineteen twenties,

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Speaker 2: when the Wimer Republic was just starting to falter, Hitler

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Speaker 2: was coming into power, chaos was starting to start in

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Speaker 2: Europe and in Germany in particular, these people decided to

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Speaker 2: try to escape their lives, escape civilization, and build a utopia.

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Speaker 2: And it began with a doctor named Frederick Ritter, who

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Speaker 2: is this really really fascinating character. I mean, he's kind

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Speaker 2: of a nineteen thirties like kipster in Cell who studied Nietscha.

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Speaker 2: You know, Virtuo signaled by pretending to be a vegetarian.

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Speaker 2: But meanwhile he's like eating meat all the time. He

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Speaker 2: fancied himself as very important philosopher. His big goal was

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Speaker 2: to go to a remote island and implement some of

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Speaker 2: his his his theories. He had a lot of theory

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Speaker 2: about the effect of sunlight on human skin and raw

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Speaker 2: food dieting. I mean, in a way, he was ahead

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Speaker 2: of his time, studying the sort of raw food dieting

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Speaker 2: and other sort of natural ways of living that you know,

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Speaker 2: I guess are commonplace today, but we're sort of revolutionary

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Speaker 2: at the time. And he, you know, this was his

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Speaker 2: idea to write about these philosophies and his experiments and

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Speaker 2: become a household name, become a famous philosopher in the

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Speaker 2: manner of nietzscha And he brings along with him a

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Speaker 2: woman who had been his patient in Berlin named Dorri Stratch.

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Speaker 2: She was suffering from multiple sclerosis, and you know, every

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Speaker 2: single doctor she had seen told her it was incurable.

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Speaker 2: You know, she has multiple scrosis, it's incurable. But Frederick

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Speaker 2: Grinnard decides to tell her no, no, no, no, no,

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Speaker 2: you are perfectly capable of curing your own multiple sclerosis.

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Speaker 2: You just have to want to cure it enough. You

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Speaker 2: have to the power is in your mind to cure

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Speaker 2: your multiple scoreses. And she kind of falls in love

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Speaker 2: with him, She falls for his whole thing. She decides

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Speaker 2: he's a genius. They're both going to leave their spouses

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Speaker 2: and run off to the Scalapagos Island together and try

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Speaker 2: to live out his grandiose dream. And she's going to

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Speaker 2: facilitate his writings and his philosophy and his experiments. And

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Speaker 2: in the meantime she gets to be has helped me

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Speaker 2: and his companion, and she can't think of a higher calling.

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Speaker 2: That's in the beginning. Things get a little bit diceier

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Speaker 2: as the story goes on.

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Speaker 1: Had Ridder done any real planning at all? I mean,

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Speaker 1: I hate to bring up boring things like sanitation or plumbing.

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Speaker 1: It no, okay, it's.

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Speaker 2: Actually fascinating what they did. So Ritter, if I could

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Speaker 2: refer back to that initial passage I write at the beginning,

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Speaker 2: with his steel teeth, doctor Ritter, with his steelt So

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Speaker 2: Frederick Gridder was so committed to the idea of life

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Speaker 2: on a remote island that he yanked out all of

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Speaker 2: his teeth and had them replaced by a set of

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Speaker 2: steel dentures. Because the idea was that he didn't want

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Speaker 2: to encounter any dental problems on the island. That was

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Speaker 2: his big nod to the gravity of what he was

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Speaker 2: about to embark on. He also had a philosophy. It

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Speaker 2: wasn't just about dental problems. He also had a philosophy

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Speaker 2: that if you got rid of your teeth, they're superfluous.

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Speaker 2: Your gums could be quote forrny enough to serve his teeth.

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Speaker 2: They could adapt. So it was kind of a human

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Speaker 2: evolution idea in his mind that our gums would just

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Speaker 2: become teeth in the absence of teeth. And so, you know,

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Speaker 2: what he failed to account for eventually was that his

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Speaker 2: gum shrank a bit and the dentires did not stay improperly.

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Speaker 2: So they're rattling around in his mouth a little bit.

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Speaker 1: That's not sexy at all. Does she care? Does care?

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Speaker 2: Well? I think that Dory was having her own issues.

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Speaker 2: You know, she was experiencing dental problems, and her teeth

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Speaker 2: were sort of falling out, and he yanked a few

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Speaker 2: of them to the point where she became embarrassed. Once

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Speaker 2: these American explorers started encountering them, she became embarrassed. She

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Speaker 2: didn't want to smile. She didn't want to talk, she

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Speaker 2: didn't want to show her sheep. So they would actually

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Speaker 2: share the dentures at times. And I really don't think

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Speaker 2: there's a grosser phrase in the English language than shared

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Speaker 2: seal dentures, like I took pretty bad. It's pretty bad.

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Speaker 2: But that was the way that they approached that. And

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Speaker 2: you know, they did give Alay a lot of their possessions.

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Speaker 2: But as for that, you know, Frederick was actually a

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Speaker 2: kind of talented inventor. He was able to sort of

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Speaker 2: rag up a shower for them that came out of

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Speaker 2: the spring. He attached the cartridge and sort of like

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Speaker 2: a hose contraption, and he was actually able to make

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Speaker 2: a regular household. Floriana and the island that they went

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Speaker 2: to was an interesting choice because it's barren and descelin.

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Speaker 2: The Glacos Islands are not a very They're not really

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Speaker 2: this sort of thing you think of when you think

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Speaker 2: of tropical island. They're not these beautiful sandy beaches with

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Speaker 2: these lush landscapes and palm trees and beautiful bewater. It's

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Speaker 2: all lava rock, not a lot of fertile soil. Is

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Speaker 2: very dry, it's very barren if there is any soil

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Speaker 2: that's able to be cultivated, which they found. It was

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Speaker 2: up in the highlands where you get the sort of

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Speaker 2: missed from the mountains that are there, all the volcanic mountains.

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Speaker 2: You know, it's a volcanic area, so you get the

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Speaker 2: miss from that and sort of a spring that runs

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Speaker 2: from that. But the Floriana where they settled only had

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Speaker 2: one spring, so it was a very strategical location, which

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Speaker 2: also causes problems later on with the other settlers. Everybody

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Speaker 2: wanted close proximity to the spring.

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Speaker 1: Of course, now Ritter and Dory are both together, how

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Speaker 1: are other people showing up on this island? Is he

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Speaker 1: recruiting a lot of different people? Is he the leader

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Speaker 1: of this? Like who finds the island? And how does

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Speaker 1: this first sort of develop so that we have a

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Speaker 1: little bit of a civilization.

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Speaker 2: So Frederick's idea was that it was going to be

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Speaker 2: just him and Dory. It was going to be a

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Speaker 2: private utopia, just the two of them. They didn't want

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Speaker 2: any other company, or so fret Or claims. They just

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Speaker 2: wanted to sort of be by themselves and cultivate this

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Speaker 2: utopia on their own. What happens so the American Explorers

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Speaker 2: throw a wrench into that. There was a man named

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Speaker 2: Eugene MacDonald who actually found the Zenith radio. He was

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Speaker 2: a Chicago millionaire, and he also was sort of a playboy,

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Speaker 2: a little bit.

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Speaker 1: Of a it's like a bad boy, yeah, a little

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Speaker 1: bad boy.

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Speaker 2: He's a bit of a nineteen thirties bad boy. He

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Speaker 2: was a big drinker. He liked to shoot his gun indiscriminately.

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Speaker 2: He collected guns. He actually collected the gun reportedly that

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Speaker 2: that al Capone had used in the Balentine State massacres.

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Speaker 2: He was a sort of Chicago the Chicago bad playboy.

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Speaker 2: So he shows up in nineteen twenty nine, and it's

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Speaker 2: at a time period when Dory and Friedrich are having

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Speaker 2: a little bit of trouble. You know, they start out okay.

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Speaker 2: Friedrich's kind of a difficult character live was, to say

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Speaker 2: the least, which I get into. The relationship is sort

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Speaker 2: of up and down and up and down, and Dorry's

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Speaker 2: trying her best to keep the peace. Eugene McDonald shows

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Speaker 2: up and he's shocked to find people on this island.

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Speaker 2: He thought it was uninhabited. They talked to him. He

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Speaker 2: gives them scenes, He gives them the supplies, and he

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Speaker 2: tells them he'll be back, He'll stay in touch with them.

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Speaker 2: He's fascinated by the experiment they're doing. But achieve McDonald

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Speaker 2: goes back and sends out a wire to all the

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Speaker 2: newspaper across the country, across the world. I discovered Adam

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Speaker 2: and Eve on the island of Floriana. You know, I

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Speaker 2: discovered these two people. They are, you know, these two

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Speaker 2: eccentric Germans trying to create their life together on this island.

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Speaker 2: And wow, what a crazy thing I discovered. So that's

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Speaker 2: when the international publicity starts, much to Dori and Friedrich's

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Speaker 2: you know, dismay, and the word reaches Germany and another

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Speaker 2: family decides to come after that.

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Speaker 1: So these are people from Germany who are fleeing. Are

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Speaker 1: they fleeing anything like any sort of like persecution having

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Speaker 1: to do with World War One? You know, World War

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Speaker 1: two coming up later.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. So this second family, it's the Whitmer family. Like Friedrich,

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Speaker 2: Heinz Whitmer was a veteran of the Great War. Both

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Speaker 2: had post traumatic stress disorder, I think from their service

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Speaker 2: and Hines had worked for a high ranking official in

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Speaker 2: the Weimar Republicmer Republic was crumbling, and you know, his

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Speaker 2: boss was an avowed enemy of Hitler, so there was

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Speaker 2: some fear of retaliation for Hines, I think, in just

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Speaker 2: sort of a general sense that his political situation might

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Speaker 2: come to light and he might get in trouble. In

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Speaker 2: addition to that, he had taken up with a lover.

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Speaker 2: He also left his spouse, and she left her spouse

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Speaker 2: and they were together. And Hines had his son from

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Speaker 2: his first marriage, and this son was a teenage son, Harry,

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Speaker 2: who had been sickly since Burt and nearly blind. So

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Speaker 2: they couldn't afford a sanitarium. They couldn't afford a hospital,

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Speaker 2: so they decided that it might behoove the boy to

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Speaker 2: move to a more tropical climate and it might sort

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Speaker 2: of heal some of his ailments. So all of those

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Speaker 2: factors went into Hines thinking that moving to Floriana to

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Speaker 2: follow in the footsteps of doctor Ritter and Dory might

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Speaker 2: be a good idea.

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Speaker 1: So now we have two couples who have left all

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Speaker 1: of their spouses for each other, right, and then a

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Speaker 1: teenage boy who sounds like he could use some medical help. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: Eugene McDonald doesn't come back, does he? Does he? End

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Speaker 1: up shacking up there too.

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Speaker 2: No, he SE's in touch with them. I think he

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Speaker 2: does return a second time, but he does not end

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Speaker 2: up None of the American explorers end up moving in.

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Speaker 2: They just keep coming back and reporting on the situation.

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Speaker 1: They just ruined things, Yeah, they ruin things.

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Speaker 2: And then and then once things are really you know,

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Speaker 2: once the ship really hits the fan, they start digging

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Speaker 2: through the pieces and trying to figure out what happens.

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Speaker 1: Now, how do these two couples in this teenage boy?

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Speaker 1: How does everybody get along? I feel like this is

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Speaker 1: the second or third story I've done about a remote

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Speaker 1: island with people on it. And what I had learned

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Speaker 1: in the pattern was that everybody seems to kind of

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Speaker 1: pick up a role, and they do their they have

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Speaker 1: their own role, and when something happens to one person,

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Speaker 1: it sort of makes everything fall apart. It's amazing how

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Speaker 1: you can have such a small community and if you

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Speaker 1: remove one person, or if that person rebels against the community,

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Speaker 1: it can really devastate them. So how are these people

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Speaker 1: getting along for now?

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Speaker 2: Well, I mean, once Ritner and Dory found out that

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Speaker 2: Heinz Whitmerner's family were coming, I mean they were completely

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Speaker 2: angry about it. They were furious, really, they did not

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Speaker 2: want anyone else there. They were very disturbed by the

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Speaker 2: idea that Hines and his girlfriend Margaret Whitmer, you know,

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Speaker 2: the sort of common law spouses at that point. She

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Speaker 2: eventually came when they eventually moved to the Glaco. She

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Speaker 2: was pregnant with Heinz's child. So the immediate implication was that, oh,

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Speaker 2: doctor Ritter is going to be there to help with

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Speaker 2: the baby. He's going to help with the delivery, he's

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Speaker 2: going to help Margaret with her medical care. He's going

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Speaker 2: to make sure the baby is okay. And doctor Ritter

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Speaker 2: and Dorry both resented this, you know, they resented the imposition.

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Speaker 2: He didn't go there to practice as a doctor. He

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Speaker 2: didn't go there to serve, you know, he was getting

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Speaker 2: away from all of that. That's not what he was

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Speaker 2: there for. So things start off really rocky with them,

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Speaker 2: and it's kind of like, look, you you do your

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Speaker 2: thing over there, we'll do our thing over there, and

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Speaker 2: let's just try to coexist peacefully without really involving each other,

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Speaker 2: ourselves in each other's lives. That does start changing. Margaret

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Speaker 2: does give birth and she does have to call it

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Speaker 2: behind Printer Gritter and Frederick Gritter. You know, the avowed

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Speaker 2: vegetarian often asks Hymes for a cut of meat. He

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Speaker 2: always says the meat is for his chickens. He feeds

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Speaker 2: meat to his chickens. But he's always asking Himes for

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Speaker 2: a cut of meat. And it becomes a running joke

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Speaker 2: with Margaret Whitmer and heins Whitmer that Frederick is, you know,

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Speaker 2: the first thing from a vegetarian they could possibly be,

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Speaker 2: and they just laugh about him. It's kind of private

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Speaker 2: joke with them.

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Speaker 1: Are these five people prepared to live in the wilderness?

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Speaker 1: I watch alone? Have you seen a loan on History

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Speaker 1: Channel before? No? Oh my goodness. So they throw these

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Speaker 1: you know, these survivalists, most of them are professional survivalists

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Speaker 1: into like really remote areas in Canada with very few

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Speaker 1: supplies and they just have to last as long as

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Speaker 1: they can. You know, it's you and and against nature

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Speaker 1: and you have to have some skills. What is day

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Speaker 1: to day life for these people who I presume we're

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Speaker 1: not professional survivalists in any way? Are they hunting or

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Speaker 1: fishing or what?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? I mean they're mostly hunting, especially Hines and Margaret

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Speaker 2: because they you know, they do eat meat. They hunt

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Speaker 2: a lot. Dori and Frederick have a garden. They sort

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Speaker 2: of start cultivating a garden that's alternately looming well and

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Speaker 2: dry and barren. You know, sort of the mercurial weather

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Speaker 2: down there just messes with the garden at times. But

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Speaker 2: they're able to cultivate a lot of a pretty healthy garden.

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Speaker 2: Mostly they eat a lot of eggs. They have chickens.

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Speaker 2: I'm sure Fredrick's you know, sneaking some meat on the side.

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Speaker 2: But they sort of, you know, figure out how to

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Speaker 2: make it work. It's backbreaking work building a house from scratch.

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Speaker 2: I talk a lot about how they did that, and

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Speaker 2: just weatherproofing against the rains that could come there. You know.

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Speaker 2: I went to visit the Galapagos Floriana Island in twenty

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Speaker 2: twenty two, and I visited the areas where they had lived,

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Speaker 2: and you know, it is still it is very rough terrain.

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Speaker 2: And I couldn't imagine how do you do and in

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Speaker 2: nineteen thirty without the benefit of any modern tools or

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Speaker 2: internet or access to immediate help, especially if you have

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Speaker 2: multiple scrosis. And Dory had sort of a limp leg

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Speaker 2: as an effective effect of multiple scruesis. Now she didn't

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Speaker 2: just roll over and die in the first couple of

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Speaker 2: weeks of exhaustion. I will never understand. I mean, the bravery. Say,

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Speaker 2: you know, the characters all are very flawed people, but say,

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Speaker 2: you know, you cannot dispute their bravery and just the

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Speaker 2: balls they had to really just make it go of

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Speaker 2: this and make it work well.

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Speaker 1: Margaret with a new baby and then this teenage son.

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Speaker 1: It just seems like the majority of the people need

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Speaker 1: some sort of medical regular you would think medical attention.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, and it's sort of just remarkable. You know,

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Speaker 2: they just make do you know, she feeds the baby

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Speaker 2: what she cultivates from the garden. She breastfeeds obviously until

359
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Speaker 2: she until she can't do it anymore. But they get desperate.

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Speaker 2: This is what makes it interesting in terms of the explorers.

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Speaker 2: You know, here are all people who said, we don't

362
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Speaker 2: want help from the outside. But onilst these explorers keep

363
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Speaker 2: coming and bringing seeds and bringing food and bringing preserves

364
00:19:06,359 --> 00:19:09,200
Speaker 2: and bringing milk and bringing this and that, they start

365
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Speaker 2: welcoming the explorers. They start welcoming them, and they start

366
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Speaker 2: competing for their extension and for their gifts. They're sort

367
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Speaker 2: of a mad scramble that starts and a competition among

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Speaker 2: all of these people that only and also causes a

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Speaker 2: lot of envy and anger in the community.

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Speaker 1: So I've had read about explorers coming from all over

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Speaker 1: the world and they're going to these islands where they

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Speaker 1: are quote unquote natives, and they're bringing all of these gifts.

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Speaker 1: Is that kind of what's happening here in a really

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Speaker 1: odd way with people affluent enough to be able to

375
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Speaker 1: live this sort of lifestyle. Are they what are they

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Speaker 1: bringing to them?

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Speaker 2: Oh? So it's mostly at Hancock. It's Alan Hancock, it's

378
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Speaker 2: Vincent Astor, it's Eg McDonald, it's all American. Anybody who's

379
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Speaker 2: visiting the Gladgos Islands at this period of time because

380
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Speaker 2: the Great Depression was on, was rich and they did bring,

381
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Speaker 2: you know, seeds and hands of food and milk and

382
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Speaker 2: sort of guns, ammunition tools, garden tools, anything that might

383
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Speaker 2: help facilitate life on the island for these people. And

384
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Speaker 2: it's a system that works very well, you know, until

385
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Speaker 2: Crazy Panty shows up. So she comes a little bit later,

386
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Speaker 2: and then you know, it prows another sort of element

387
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Speaker 2: into the competition for the explorers' gifts.

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Speaker 1: So I was going to ask, what the next big

389
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Speaker 1: event is. Is crazy panties the next big event that

390
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Speaker 1: happens to this to the utopian island.

391
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Speaker 2: So crazy panties is the next big event? Crazy panties. Okay,

392
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Speaker 2: her real name is Antoinette. It's always been misreported as Eloise.

393
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Speaker 2: Her name was not Eloise. Her name was Antoinette. I

394
00:20:41,920 --> 00:20:45,080
Speaker 2: did a lot of research into her lineage. You know,

395
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Speaker 2: people also falsely reported that she's not a real baroness.

396
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Speaker 2: She actually was a real baroness. Came from a pretty

397
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Speaker 2: aristocratic family, a well connected family, wealthy family in Vienna.

398
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Speaker 2: So when this story happens, she is living in Paris

399
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Speaker 2: with a husband, but she also sort of is in

400
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Speaker 2: Paris culture at this time. You know, she's sort of

401
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Speaker 2: this sort of was described as orgiastic by one of

402
00:21:10,040 --> 00:21:14,159
Speaker 2: her contemporaries, and I think that was literal. There was

403
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Speaker 2: a lot of a lot of sex happening around the

404
00:21:16,920 --> 00:21:21,160
Speaker 2: baroness and she decides to you know, there's various sort

405
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Speaker 2: of stories about why she fled Paris. I talk about

406
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Speaker 2: them in the book. But she ends up leaving Paris

407
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Speaker 2: with two of her lovers that she was with at

408
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Speaker 2: the time. One was a business partner, kind of a

409
00:21:32,560 --> 00:21:36,880
Speaker 2: demoted lover. The other one was her preferred lover. There's

410
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Speaker 2: a hierarchy. There's a definite hierarchy that's happening.

411
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Speaker 1: Well, you're doomed if you're a demoted lover, I guess

412
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Speaker 1: in any situation.

413
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Speaker 2: It was kind of like it was kind of like

414
00:21:46,119 --> 00:21:49,320
Speaker 2: the reverse Sister Wives. You know. It was like she

415
00:21:49,680 --> 00:21:53,600
Speaker 2: was the head of the family and she had various

416
00:21:53,680 --> 00:21:58,240
Speaker 2: lovers of importance and degrees. And she also brings along

417
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Speaker 2: a native Ecuadorian man who who had been living in

418
00:22:01,080 --> 00:22:03,600
Speaker 2: Paris and doing work for her. She brings him along

419
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Speaker 2: because of course he's going to be helpful in this situation.

420
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Speaker 2: He can help her her. Her plan is come to

421
00:22:08,480 --> 00:22:12,000
Speaker 2: the Floriana and make a hotel in the spirit of Miami.

422
00:22:12,200 --> 00:22:16,080
Speaker 2: She wants to turn Floriana into Miami for American tourists

423
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Speaker 2: and seduce American tourists and become a sort of, you know,

424
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Speaker 2: a well known person among Americans, possibly get to Hollywood.

425
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Speaker 2: But this is her goal. So you can see it's

426
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Speaker 2: immediately at odds with Frederick Ritter and with the winners,

427
00:22:29,640 --> 00:22:32,399
Speaker 2: who really just wanted to coexist peacefully on this island.

428
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Speaker 2: But she comes in and announces, Hey, I'm turning this

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Speaker 2: into Miami. I'm bringing on my head. I'm going to

430
00:22:38,240 --> 00:22:40,639
Speaker 2: seduce everybody. All the Americans are going to come and

431
00:22:40,720 --> 00:22:44,479
Speaker 2: love me. And she went for it. This woman, I mean,

432
00:22:44,520 --> 00:22:47,120
Speaker 2: in a way, she was this really kind of like Braisen.

433
00:22:47,680 --> 00:22:50,000
Speaker 2: She did not give a fox. She went for anything

434
00:22:50,119 --> 00:22:53,119
Speaker 2: she wanted. She just she just did not care what

435
00:22:53,240 --> 00:22:53,920
Speaker 2: anybody thought.

436
00:22:54,680 --> 00:22:58,119
Speaker 1: But did she understand what rough living this would be

437
00:22:58,440 --> 00:23:00,840
Speaker 1: when she got did she understand there's no infrastructure? I mean,

438
00:23:00,880 --> 00:23:02,840
Speaker 1: she would have wanted indoor plumbing and stuff.

439
00:23:03,080 --> 00:23:06,359
Speaker 2: She realized that, you know, she was going to have

440
00:23:06,440 --> 00:23:10,200
Speaker 2: to build a hotel. She calls her hotel the Hacienda Paradiso,

441
00:23:10,560 --> 00:23:13,280
Speaker 2: and she leaves it in the hands of her ecutoring

442
00:23:13,320 --> 00:23:16,359
Speaker 2: contractor and her two lovers to build this hotel. You know,

443
00:23:16,560 --> 00:23:19,680
Speaker 2: it doesn't have any real modern conveniences. Of course, I

444
00:23:19,720 --> 00:23:22,160
Speaker 2: think anybody who was visiting Florian at this time knew

445
00:23:22,240 --> 00:23:24,640
Speaker 2: that they would, you know, be shitting in a hole somewhere.

446
00:23:25,240 --> 00:23:26,920
Speaker 2: There's not going to be any kind of you know,

447
00:23:27,080 --> 00:23:30,680
Speaker 2: luxurious bathroom set up. But it was it was, you know,

448
00:23:31,200 --> 00:23:35,040
Speaker 2: she ended up cultivating a nice garden she draped the

449
00:23:35,119 --> 00:23:38,399
Speaker 2: inside with the sort of exotic silks and rugs and

450
00:23:38,640 --> 00:23:40,639
Speaker 2: made a pretty picture out of it. She had a

451
00:23:40,800 --> 00:23:43,880
Speaker 2: very sort of picturesque boudoir that she liked to take

452
00:23:43,920 --> 00:23:46,600
Speaker 2: photos in. You know, there was all kinds of rumors.

453
00:23:46,960 --> 00:23:51,520
Speaker 2: One visitor called her hotel a quote festering sex complex,

454
00:23:52,520 --> 00:23:55,520
Speaker 2: So if that gives you an idea, but needless to say,

455
00:23:55,520 --> 00:23:57,359
Speaker 2: you know, she shows up and the first thing she

456
00:23:57,520 --> 00:24:00,119
Speaker 2: does is announced that she's going to live by the

457
00:24:00,119 --> 00:24:02,639
Speaker 2: Whigber's house, and she puts her feet in their drinking

458
00:24:02,760 --> 00:24:06,080
Speaker 2: water and their water supply, and she just basically from

459
00:24:06,119 --> 00:24:10,720
Speaker 2: the start has no problem antagonizing everybody, including Frederick Ridder,

460
00:24:10,920 --> 00:24:15,119
Speaker 2: including the Whitmers. She's immediately sort of establishing herself as

461
00:24:15,640 --> 00:24:17,880
Speaker 2: as a person who's going to do whatever she wants

462
00:24:17,920 --> 00:24:18,600
Speaker 2: and she doesn't care.

463
00:24:18,920 --> 00:24:21,640
Speaker 1: I was going to ask what the reaction was, are

464
00:24:22,040 --> 00:24:24,560
Speaker 1: either of these two men, the heads of these families

465
00:24:24,840 --> 00:24:27,960
Speaker 1: or whatever we're calling them, Are these men who have

466
00:24:28,080 --> 00:24:30,440
Speaker 1: ever had any kind of a pension for violence in

467
00:24:30,520 --> 00:24:32,800
Speaker 1: the past. I don't get a sense for what they

468
00:24:32,960 --> 00:24:35,600
Speaker 1: were like. If they were very volatile people.

469
00:24:35,840 --> 00:24:39,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think in the manner of Frederick Ridder, I

470
00:24:39,200 --> 00:24:41,240
Speaker 2: think he had after effects from his.

471
00:24:41,320 --> 00:24:43,920
Speaker 1: War service, yeah, PTSD stuff.

472
00:24:44,119 --> 00:24:46,399
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think that there is a little bit

473
00:24:46,440 --> 00:24:49,320
Speaker 2: of violence left over from that. Although he you know,

474
00:24:49,480 --> 00:24:52,600
Speaker 2: he was kind of a very interesting he's a fascinating character,

475
00:24:52,680 --> 00:24:55,960
Speaker 2: but he's full of contradictions. And you know, as he

476
00:24:56,520 --> 00:24:59,000
Speaker 2: progressed himself to be a very peaceful person. In fact,

477
00:24:59,080 --> 00:25:01,600
Speaker 2: so peaceful ones he said, but he did not even

478
00:25:01,760 --> 00:25:04,720
Speaker 2: like to pull potatoes from the earth because it involved

479
00:25:04,840 --> 00:25:07,720
Speaker 2: yanking something from its roots. It was no too violent

480
00:25:07,800 --> 00:25:10,480
Speaker 2: an act for him, you know, but I think he was.

481
00:25:10,600 --> 00:25:14,720
Speaker 2: I think he was severely, severely disturbed by his experiences

482
00:25:14,760 --> 00:25:15,120
Speaker 2: in the war.

483
00:25:15,600 --> 00:25:19,879
Speaker 1: So the baroness comes toning along this Ecuadorian contractor and

484
00:25:20,000 --> 00:25:23,359
Speaker 1: these two men who were her lovers, and she sets

485
00:25:23,440 --> 00:25:26,359
Speaker 1: up shop right next to the Whitmers. What happens next?

486
00:25:26,480 --> 00:25:28,760
Speaker 1: What's the big thing? They can't be happy about this,

487
00:25:28,880 --> 00:25:31,240
Speaker 1: and I'm sure are they arguing with her all the time?

488
00:25:31,440 --> 00:25:32,440
Speaker 1: How are they handling it?

489
00:25:32,760 --> 00:25:35,359
Speaker 2: You know, it goes through period those where you know,

490
00:25:35,520 --> 00:25:38,439
Speaker 2: after Margaret has her baby, everybody tries to get along.

491
00:25:38,520 --> 00:25:41,480
Speaker 2: They're sort of a period of peace and magnanimous feeling,

492
00:25:42,320 --> 00:25:44,879
Speaker 2: you know, and sort of just let's all get along.

493
00:25:45,520 --> 00:25:48,240
Speaker 2: It really coincides with the visitors of the you know,

494
00:25:48,280 --> 00:25:51,679
Speaker 2: the American visits. You know, whenever an American shows up

495
00:25:51,760 --> 00:25:55,400
Speaker 2: with a yacht full of goodies, you know, competition starts again.

496
00:25:55,880 --> 00:25:58,359
Speaker 2: Is the baroness stealing things from the Whitmers? Is she

497
00:25:58,440 --> 00:26:01,320
Speaker 2: taking milk from the baby? Is she doing this? Is

498
00:26:01,359 --> 00:26:04,160
Speaker 2: she is she hoarding everything for herself? Or the Winnmer's hoarding?

499
00:26:04,320 --> 00:26:06,840
Speaker 2: What is Frederick Britters stealing? You know, there's all kinds

500
00:26:06,840 --> 00:26:11,720
Speaker 2: of accusations and suspicions that start festering because nobody trusts

501
00:26:11,760 --> 00:26:16,760
Speaker 2: each other, and it leads to a couple of accusations, fights, arguments,

502
00:26:16,800 --> 00:26:19,080
Speaker 2: and then a simmering down period because people, you know,

503
00:26:19,160 --> 00:26:23,880
Speaker 2: the escalation gets very dangerous and people keep pulling back,

504
00:26:23,920 --> 00:26:25,720
Speaker 2: and people keep pulling back, and then the next time

505
00:26:25,760 --> 00:26:28,280
Speaker 2: it happens, it just flares higher, and then people pulls back,

506
00:26:28,320 --> 00:26:30,159
Speaker 2: and then it flares higher. So it's just sort of

507
00:26:30,240 --> 00:26:32,800
Speaker 2: this continuous pattern of let's try to keep the peace.

508
00:26:32,840 --> 00:26:35,120
Speaker 2: Oh my god, the piece has got the piece is exploding.

509
00:26:35,160 --> 00:26:37,480
Speaker 2: We can't we can't sort of contain what's going to

510
00:26:37,560 --> 00:26:37,959
Speaker 2: happen here.

511
00:26:38,440 --> 00:26:43,000
Speaker 1: What is the motivation of explorers like Eugene McDonald to

512
00:26:43,160 --> 00:26:45,400
Speaker 1: come back again and again. What are they getting out

513
00:26:45,480 --> 00:26:48,159
Speaker 1: of bringing gifts to these people? They're not journalists, what

514
00:26:48,400 --> 00:26:49,200
Speaker 1: are they getting out of it?

515
00:26:49,880 --> 00:26:51,879
Speaker 2: I think that it was sort of a point of pride.

516
00:26:52,040 --> 00:26:54,600
Speaker 2: I mean for Eugene McDonald, it was I discovered these people.

517
00:26:55,080 --> 00:26:58,680
Speaker 2: You know, it was that and also just curiosity. I mean,

518
00:26:58,960 --> 00:27:02,159
Speaker 2: these people were interested and ostensibly in the wildlife of

519
00:27:02,400 --> 00:27:06,159
Speaker 2: Floriana and the Galapagos, and what does it say, you know,

520
00:27:06,400 --> 00:27:09,400
Speaker 2: these human beings were the most exotic specimens of all

521
00:27:09,880 --> 00:27:12,160
Speaker 2: you know, look at these people. So they just became

522
00:27:12,200 --> 00:27:15,159
Speaker 2: like a circus curiosity that people wanted to keep track of.

523
00:27:15,359 --> 00:27:17,600
Speaker 2: And there were, you know, reports in the newspapers back

524
00:27:18,040 --> 00:27:19,800
Speaker 2: in the United States that I think were a kind

525
00:27:19,800 --> 00:27:22,640
Speaker 2: of welcome distraction from the bad news of the depression.

526
00:27:22,760 --> 00:27:25,159
Speaker 2: You know how dowur the thirties were, and it was

527
00:27:25,240 --> 00:27:27,920
Speaker 2: kind of became an aspirational thing. Couldn't we all just

528
00:27:28,080 --> 00:27:31,040
Speaker 2: leave our very difficult lives, especially at that time period

529
00:27:31,520 --> 00:27:34,000
Speaker 2: and build a new life on an island where we

530
00:27:34,040 --> 00:27:36,000
Speaker 2: didn't have such worries. We could live off the land,

531
00:27:36,040 --> 00:27:37,879
Speaker 2: we didn't have to worry about a paycheck. Money is

532
00:27:37,920 --> 00:27:41,040
Speaker 2: in money doesn't matter here, and so it sort of

533
00:27:41,119 --> 00:27:45,440
Speaker 2: became a fascination and a dream, and I think the

534
00:27:45,520 --> 00:27:48,520
Speaker 2: explorers fed into that. And in the case of instein

535
00:27:48,560 --> 00:27:52,480
Speaker 2: Ast and Hancock, they became very good friends with the exiles.

536
00:27:52,920 --> 00:27:55,840
Speaker 2: They became invested in their lives, and I was able

537
00:27:56,000 --> 00:27:58,239
Speaker 2: to cap into a bunch of archives that had never

538
00:27:58,320 --> 00:28:01,560
Speaker 2: been published or written about before they newly donated. You know,

539
00:28:01,760 --> 00:28:04,280
Speaker 2: Hancock became their closest confidant.

540
00:28:04,800 --> 00:28:07,280
Speaker 1: So you have these explorers kind of going back and

541
00:28:07,400 --> 00:28:10,920
Speaker 1: forth and the German exiles are competing for their attention.

542
00:28:11,640 --> 00:28:15,960
Speaker 1: How long does everything proceed on this island where everybody

543
00:28:16,040 --> 00:28:19,320
Speaker 1: is living not happily but just sort of their coexisting.

544
00:28:20,040 --> 00:28:22,440
Speaker 1: Is this years? How long does this last before the

545
00:28:22,520 --> 00:28:23,240
Speaker 1: next big event?

546
00:28:23,800 --> 00:28:27,120
Speaker 2: There's a series of little earthquakes. I would say once

547
00:28:27,160 --> 00:28:29,760
Speaker 2: the Baroness arrives. There's never a moment of true peace.

548
00:28:30,200 --> 00:28:33,680
Speaker 2: There's just little little earthquakes that happen. There are incidents

549
00:28:33,840 --> 00:28:36,080
Speaker 2: that so disturbed Frederick and Hines that they try to

550
00:28:36,119 --> 00:28:39,560
Speaker 2: seek help from Macadorian officials and say, this woman is crazy,

551
00:28:39,960 --> 00:28:42,200
Speaker 2: this woman is crazy. We need your help, we need

552
00:28:42,240 --> 00:28:43,440
Speaker 2: your official intervention.

553
00:28:43,720 --> 00:28:45,760
Speaker 1: It's more serious than feed in the drinking water.

554
00:28:45,880 --> 00:28:50,440
Speaker 2: I assume then yes, I will say there's medical attention required.

555
00:28:51,920 --> 00:28:55,840
Speaker 2: But it's not only competition up among the settlers. Within

556
00:28:55,880 --> 00:28:58,680
Speaker 2: the baroness's own camp, she starts pitting her two lovers

557
00:28:58,680 --> 00:29:03,280
Speaker 2: against each other in ways that are increasingly disturbing. One

558
00:29:03,320 --> 00:29:05,640
Speaker 2: of them decides that, you know, he has to flee,

559
00:29:06,200 --> 00:29:10,120
Speaker 2: he has to seek refuge elsewhere. So it's kind of

560
00:29:10,320 --> 00:29:13,000
Speaker 2: like all of the chaos that's happening outside in the

561
00:29:13,080 --> 00:29:15,640
Speaker 2: real world. You know, she's managed to create a microcosm

562
00:29:15,720 --> 00:29:17,000
Speaker 2: of it on this little island.

563
00:29:17,440 --> 00:29:20,400
Speaker 1: Do you think had she not been introduced to this

564
00:29:21,080 --> 00:29:23,440
Speaker 1: so I talk about, you have a small civilization, and

565
00:29:23,560 --> 00:29:25,600
Speaker 1: he throws some one person in the mix, and look

566
00:29:25,640 --> 00:29:28,560
Speaker 1: how much it changes. Do you think that the Whitmer's

567
00:29:28,760 --> 00:29:33,000
Speaker 1: and Ritter and his girlfriend slash wife, would they have

568
00:29:33,120 --> 00:29:35,440
Speaker 1: been able to just sort of live their lives forever

569
00:29:35,760 --> 00:29:38,800
Speaker 1: it had the Baroness not been introduced to this little ecosystem.

570
00:29:39,200 --> 00:29:42,440
Speaker 2: I will say this, The Whippers are still there. Whitmer

571
00:29:42,480 --> 00:29:45,920
Speaker 2: descendants are still on Floriana Island. Wow. I met Hines

572
00:29:45,960 --> 00:29:49,240
Speaker 2: and Margaret's daughter. She's in her eighties now, their daughter

573
00:29:49,320 --> 00:29:51,800
Speaker 2: is still alive. They run two hotels on that island.

574
00:29:51,920 --> 00:29:55,600
Speaker 2: So the Whitmers. The Whitmer sort of got the game right.

575
00:29:55,800 --> 00:29:57,600
Speaker 2: They knew how to play, they knew how to survive.

576
00:29:57,920 --> 00:30:01,960
Speaker 2: They're remarkable people, especially given Margaret, who I think is

577
00:30:02,360 --> 00:30:05,560
Speaker 2: kind of a low key mastermind of things. You know,

578
00:30:05,800 --> 00:30:06,880
Speaker 2: she always knew more than.

579
00:30:06,800 --> 00:30:07,400
Speaker 1: What she let on.

580
00:30:07,600 --> 00:30:09,640
Speaker 2: And this woman was just a badass. I mean she

581
00:30:09,680 --> 00:30:11,520
Speaker 2: went out and hunted wild wore on her own and

582
00:30:11,560 --> 00:30:13,800
Speaker 2: middle of the light the night, she gave birth to

583
00:30:14,200 --> 00:30:16,680
Speaker 2: a child alone in the middle of the night, without

584
00:30:16,760 --> 00:30:20,360
Speaker 2: any assistance. And they really were serious about it, and

585
00:30:20,400 --> 00:30:22,240
Speaker 2: I think they're the people who are most prepared and

586
00:30:22,320 --> 00:30:23,520
Speaker 2: therefore had the most success.

587
00:30:23,920 --> 00:30:26,280
Speaker 1: Well, the Baroness is there and things kind of get

588
00:30:26,680 --> 00:30:28,640
Speaker 1: ratcheted up. You know, you said that there's a series

589
00:30:28,680 --> 00:30:31,600
Speaker 1: of small earthquakes. What's kind of the next thing that

590
00:30:31,800 --> 00:30:35,280
Speaker 1: happens that you feel like shifts your narrative. I don't

591
00:30:35,280 --> 00:30:36,760
Speaker 1: know if it would be like the climax or what

592
00:30:36,880 --> 00:30:37,680
Speaker 1: you would want to call it.

593
00:30:38,200 --> 00:30:41,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, I would say two people go missing, that becomes

594
00:30:41,800 --> 00:30:44,600
Speaker 2: something that the explorers start investigating.

595
00:30:45,040 --> 00:30:49,000
Speaker 1: So what is motivating the explorers? They just want the headlines.

596
00:30:49,160 --> 00:30:51,520
Speaker 1: They like to be in the talk of the news

597
00:30:51,680 --> 00:30:52,920
Speaker 1: is that what it really is.

598
00:30:53,240 --> 00:30:55,120
Speaker 2: Well, I think at this point they're very invested in

599
00:30:55,200 --> 00:30:57,640
Speaker 2: these lives, you know, I think that there was a

600
00:30:57,760 --> 00:30:58,640
Speaker 2: genuine friendship.

601
00:30:58,760 --> 00:30:58,880
Speaker 1: You know.

602
00:30:59,040 --> 00:31:01,880
Speaker 2: Vincent asked her became such good friends with Dorian Frederick

603
00:31:01,920 --> 00:31:04,360
Speaker 2: that he would go visit them, and when other people came,

604
00:31:04,360 --> 00:31:07,200
Speaker 2: when other just random Americans would show up, Astor was

605
00:31:07,200 --> 00:31:09,160
Speaker 2: the one who would you know, lead the tour around

606
00:31:09,400 --> 00:31:11,800
Speaker 2: around Fredo, which was the name of their house. He

607
00:31:11,920 --> 00:31:14,920
Speaker 2: was invested in our lives, and Hancock, especially Hancock was

608
00:31:14,960 --> 00:31:18,760
Speaker 2: still very serious about collecting Glackago's specimens. You know, he

609
00:31:19,080 --> 00:31:22,360
Speaker 2: actually did do some good conservation efforts, but he always

610
00:31:22,440 --> 00:31:25,600
Speaker 2: made time to stop for Dorian Frederick, especially when two

611
00:31:25,680 --> 00:31:28,520
Speaker 2: of the exiles go missing. I think he feels responsible

612
00:31:28,720 --> 00:31:30,920
Speaker 2: and involved that he has to sort of take it

613
00:31:31,000 --> 00:31:34,640
Speaker 2: upon himself to investigate what was going on and be

614
00:31:34,840 --> 00:31:38,160
Speaker 2: a source of help and guidance and escape if need be.

615
00:31:38,640 --> 00:31:40,800
Speaker 1: Tell me the direction that we can go, so I

616
00:31:40,880 --> 00:31:42,400
Speaker 1: know it doesn't spoil too much of your book, but

617
00:31:42,440 --> 00:31:44,680
Speaker 1: that we can feel like we have like a sense

618
00:31:44,760 --> 00:31:48,160
Speaker 1: for where everything's going and how we can conclude. And

619
00:31:48,200 --> 00:31:49,760
Speaker 1: then I'm going to want to talk about of course,

620
00:31:49,840 --> 00:31:52,360
Speaker 1: like what the island's like today and how it's developed

621
00:31:52,440 --> 00:31:54,160
Speaker 1: and all of that stuff. So what do you think?

622
00:31:54,880 --> 00:31:57,200
Speaker 2: So I think that, you know, it turns to me

623
00:31:57,840 --> 00:32:00,160
Speaker 2: it's kind of an adult Lord of the Flies, you know.

624
00:32:00,280 --> 00:32:03,720
Speaker 2: It really sort of devolves into a situation that's dangerous

625
00:32:03,760 --> 00:32:06,719
Speaker 2: for everybody. It's desperate. I think they're in a desperate situation.

626
00:32:06,840 --> 00:32:09,280
Speaker 2: You know, if you just imagine two people are missing.

627
00:32:09,840 --> 00:32:12,280
Speaker 2: You know, in the case of Dory, who I would

628
00:32:12,320 --> 00:32:14,840
Speaker 2: say is one of my main narrators, you know, is

629
00:32:14,920 --> 00:32:17,280
Speaker 2: she protecting somebody who was involved in this?

630
00:32:17,680 --> 00:32:18,400
Speaker 1: Does she know this?

631
00:32:19,440 --> 00:32:21,960
Speaker 2: Does she know the extent of if Fredrick Gritter is involved?

632
00:32:22,440 --> 00:32:25,440
Speaker 2: She and Margaret wrote pretty amazing memoirs, and you read

633
00:32:25,520 --> 00:32:28,480
Speaker 2: them in hindsight, you know, from this distance, and you

634
00:32:28,640 --> 00:32:31,000
Speaker 2: wonder how much they kept out of their memoirs, how

635
00:32:31,080 --> 00:32:33,959
Speaker 2: much they really knew. And it's something that I grappled

636
00:32:34,000 --> 00:32:36,080
Speaker 2: with in the writing of this, because there are two

637
00:32:36,200 --> 00:32:39,840
Speaker 2: different versions of what happened, and I can't sit here

638
00:32:40,280 --> 00:32:42,480
Speaker 2: today and say this is true or this is true.

639
00:32:42,920 --> 00:32:45,440
Speaker 2: So I sort of had to present both and you know,

640
00:32:45,600 --> 00:32:48,720
Speaker 2: see what was most factual and present post versions and

641
00:32:48,760 --> 00:32:51,640
Speaker 2: maybe flow to theory or two, But there's no definitive

642
00:32:51,680 --> 00:32:54,400
Speaker 2: answers here. I definitely think Margaret Whitmer knew more than

643
00:32:54,440 --> 00:32:56,520
Speaker 2: what she led on without a doubt. So the men

644
00:32:56,640 --> 00:33:00,360
Speaker 2: did not write memoirs. Brederick did write a memoir. Yeah,

645
00:33:00,400 --> 00:33:02,640
Speaker 2: he read about more, but it's in German. I had

646
00:33:03,120 --> 00:33:05,560
Speaker 2: to have it translated, and it doesn't it's not as

647
00:33:06,160 --> 00:33:09,080
Speaker 2: not as much about his feelings as his accomplishments, which

648
00:33:09,440 --> 00:33:10,480
Speaker 2: seems pretty.

649
00:33:10,640 --> 00:33:12,760
Speaker 1: It's on brand for somebody like that.

650
00:33:13,280 --> 00:33:14,600
Speaker 2: Pretty on brand exactly.

651
00:33:14,880 --> 00:33:18,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, so the book, the back of your book

652
00:33:18,720 --> 00:33:21,560
Speaker 1: talks about you know, them finding two mummified bodies, so

653
00:33:21,680 --> 00:33:24,520
Speaker 1: we know two people are dead, right, yes, okay, So

654
00:33:24,760 --> 00:33:27,400
Speaker 1: we have two people that eventually are going to be recovered,

655
00:33:27,760 --> 00:33:29,960
Speaker 1: and there's a kind of a it sounds like a

656
00:33:30,040 --> 00:33:35,400
Speaker 1: murder mystery. So ultimately we know that at least one

657
00:33:35,440 --> 00:33:39,200
Speaker 1: of the Whitmers survives and continues to be on the island.

658
00:33:39,400 --> 00:33:43,479
Speaker 1: How does this island develop after whatever happens happens here?

659
00:33:44,000 --> 00:33:46,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, if I could, you know, go back and just

660
00:33:46,320 --> 00:33:48,720
Speaker 2: talk about the history of Florien a little bit and

661
00:33:49,120 --> 00:33:51,840
Speaker 2: then go into how it is today. So Florida I

662
00:33:51,960 --> 00:33:55,360
Speaker 2: was always this fascinating history it's a smaller island in

663
00:33:55,400 --> 00:33:57,960
Speaker 2: the glac Goes. It's in the southern part of the islands.

664
00:33:58,160 --> 00:34:00,400
Speaker 2: It had this dark history. It was it was the

665
00:34:00,440 --> 00:34:02,480
Speaker 2: glock of his first penal colony. It was where they

666
00:34:02,480 --> 00:34:06,240
Speaker 2: shipped all their prisoners. The first and known inhabitant was

667
00:34:06,360 --> 00:34:10,319
Speaker 2: this pirate named Patrick Watkins, who was sort of notorious

668
00:34:10,440 --> 00:34:13,239
Speaker 2: for terrorizing anybody who would come by. He lived in

669
00:34:13,320 --> 00:34:15,839
Speaker 2: the caves. There were these caves that people move into

670
00:34:16,200 --> 00:34:18,240
Speaker 2: when they first go into the island, and it's always,

671
00:34:18,320 --> 00:34:20,960
Speaker 2: you know, it's always rumored the Patrick Watkin's ghost is there.

672
00:34:21,560 --> 00:34:24,359
Speaker 2: Native Ecuadorians are very afraid of Floriana at night, at

673
00:34:24,440 --> 00:34:26,400
Speaker 2: least back in that time here in the nineteen thirties,

674
00:34:26,840 --> 00:34:29,200
Speaker 2: they did not like to go thereafter dark because it's

675
00:34:29,239 --> 00:34:31,759
Speaker 2: sort of full of lore. It was ruled for a

676
00:34:31,840 --> 00:34:36,320
Speaker 2: time by a dictator who was very vicious to his people.

677
00:34:37,160 --> 00:34:39,680
Speaker 2: He was eventually overthrown and murdered because there was a

678
00:34:39,760 --> 00:34:44,000
Speaker 2: coupe and it just sort of anything about this island.

679
00:34:44,880 --> 00:34:47,800
Speaker 2: There was a lot of dark death lore and just

680
00:34:47,880 --> 00:34:51,800
Speaker 2: sort of unsavory characters. That reputation carries over today a

681
00:34:51,840 --> 00:34:55,080
Speaker 2: little bit. You know, when Ecuadorians talk about Floriana. They

682
00:34:55,360 --> 00:34:58,080
Speaker 2: now give tours about this history and sort of talk

683
00:34:58,160 --> 00:35:01,719
Speaker 2: about that and give tour about where Patrick Watkins had

684
00:35:01,760 --> 00:35:05,960
Speaker 2: lived and sort of all of the people's since who

685
00:35:06,040 --> 00:35:08,440
Speaker 2: had come. You know, there was also a group of

686
00:35:08,520 --> 00:35:11,799
Speaker 2: Norwegians who tried to build a colony there before, right

687
00:35:11,840 --> 00:35:14,239
Speaker 2: before the Germans and the Ritters and Dory came over,

688
00:35:14,719 --> 00:35:17,239
Speaker 2: and they failed spractacularly. So it was kind of when

689
00:35:17,680 --> 00:35:19,959
Speaker 2: when Doriy and Frederick showed up there, they were trying

690
00:35:20,000 --> 00:35:22,799
Speaker 2: to do something in a lasting way that nobody had

691
00:35:22,800 --> 00:35:25,000
Speaker 2: been able to do. You know, the Norwegians did not

692
00:35:25,120 --> 00:35:27,760
Speaker 2: last very long at all, so you know, they arrived

693
00:35:27,800 --> 00:35:30,840
Speaker 2: there right in the tail of their failed predecessors, and

694
00:35:31,200 --> 00:35:34,319
Speaker 2: that was something that very much colored their initial, at

695
00:35:34,400 --> 00:35:37,759
Speaker 2: least Doriy's initial perception of the island. She's always talking

696
00:35:37,760 --> 00:35:40,319
Speaker 2: about how foreboding it is. Everywhere she looks, she sees

697
00:35:40,360 --> 00:35:43,320
Speaker 2: an oma of something evil happening. You know, Usually a

698
00:35:43,400 --> 00:35:45,680
Speaker 2: narrative nonfiction, you know, the writer has to sort of

699
00:35:45,800 --> 00:35:48,839
Speaker 2: create foreshadowing and the sense of foreboding if something's dark

700
00:35:48,920 --> 00:35:52,040
Speaker 2: is about to happen. But there was so much foreboding

701
00:35:52,239 --> 00:35:54,920
Speaker 2: on her part that my editor was like I like

702
00:35:55,040 --> 00:35:57,480
Speaker 2: that all of those foreboting is coming from the character,

703
00:35:57,640 --> 00:36:00,920
Speaker 2: not from you. But even it's too much, you got

704
00:36:01,000 --> 00:36:03,359
Speaker 2: to dial it back because she just everywhere she looked,

705
00:36:03,400 --> 00:36:06,239
Speaker 2: she saw something evil in this island. And I think

706
00:36:06,280 --> 00:36:08,360
Speaker 2: that when worrying today, are sort of really proud of

707
00:36:08,680 --> 00:36:10,800
Speaker 2: the history, at least of the people I talk to,

708
00:36:10,880 --> 00:36:12,839
Speaker 2: the wonderful people I talked to when I went there.

709
00:36:13,200 --> 00:36:17,000
Speaker 1: Did either of these two women who use their memoirs,

710
00:36:17,320 --> 00:36:20,480
Speaker 1: did either of them ever turn to their partners and say, Okay,

711
00:36:20,880 --> 00:36:23,239
Speaker 1: I'm done, I'm clocking out of this, let's go back home.

712
00:36:23,800 --> 00:36:27,080
Speaker 2: There was talk about Dorry occasionally wanted to say that

713
00:36:27,160 --> 00:36:28,759
Speaker 2: she wanted to go home, and then she would be

714
00:36:28,760 --> 00:36:30,800
Speaker 2: defying and say, I'm not leaving. I even if I

715
00:36:30,920 --> 00:36:33,080
Speaker 2: die here, this is my destiny. It's going to be

716
00:36:33,120 --> 00:36:34,759
Speaker 2: my destiny to die with Frederick. It's going to be

717
00:36:34,840 --> 00:36:37,319
Speaker 2: my destiny to die getting his important work out into

718
00:36:37,360 --> 00:36:40,840
Speaker 2: the world. So Dory definitely wavered. And you can understand

719
00:36:40,920 --> 00:36:44,279
Speaker 2: once you read more into her relationship with Frederick and

720
00:36:44,360 --> 00:36:47,560
Speaker 2: how valuable that could be, you understand why Dorry sort

721
00:36:47,600 --> 00:36:51,040
Speaker 2: of had some ideas about getting the hell out of there.

722
00:36:51,120 --> 00:36:54,480
Speaker 2: Once in a while, Margaret that family was more stable.

723
00:36:54,600 --> 00:36:57,160
Speaker 2: I think that they were just sort of like if

724
00:36:57,200 --> 00:36:59,880
Speaker 2: you could just find like a normal, normal family die

725
00:37:00,600 --> 00:37:03,800
Speaker 2: And I think that they were the perfect family to

726
00:37:04,719 --> 00:37:08,279
Speaker 2: really give that a go, because they thrive there. The

727
00:37:08,360 --> 00:37:11,520
Speaker 2: Whitmers thrive there, and you know, it takes a certain

728
00:37:11,560 --> 00:37:14,239
Speaker 2: level of pragmatism to do that, and I think that

729
00:37:14,320 --> 00:37:15,279
Speaker 2: they were just built for it.

730
00:37:16,040 --> 00:37:18,440
Speaker 1: Was this murder mystery of yours. Is this the biggest

731
00:37:18,480 --> 00:37:21,800
Speaker 1: event that ends up happening in the history of this island?

732
00:37:22,560 --> 00:37:24,439
Speaker 2: I think it is. I think it's safe to say.

733
00:37:24,719 --> 00:37:28,000
Speaker 2: You know, when anybody talks about flour around today, it's

734
00:37:28,120 --> 00:37:31,040
Speaker 2: usually the foremost event that comes up in people's minds.

735
00:37:31,440 --> 00:37:35,120
Speaker 1: So what happens after the event, you know, where you

736
00:37:35,239 --> 00:37:38,560
Speaker 1: have the explorers going and investigating what ends up happening

737
00:37:38,640 --> 00:37:41,960
Speaker 1: with the island? Does somebody buy it? Is it developed

738
00:37:42,040 --> 00:37:44,960
Speaker 1: by the Whitmers and more people come and now it's

739
00:37:45,040 --> 00:37:47,879
Speaker 1: the size of Puerto Rico or something? Now would tell

740
00:37:47,920 --> 00:37:48,640
Speaker 1: me about it?

741
00:37:48,800 --> 00:37:52,440
Speaker 2: Now? Yeah, No, it's a good question. It was completely

742
00:37:52,760 --> 00:37:55,600
Speaker 2: uninhabited when Dori and Frederick showed up. There were boats

743
00:37:55,640 --> 00:37:57,880
Speaker 2: that would come by, there were people who will come

744
00:37:57,960 --> 00:37:59,920
Speaker 2: and do fishing, enterprises. Once in a while, there was

745
00:38:00,239 --> 00:38:02,400
Speaker 2: a man who would ferry people from the mainland of

746
00:38:02,480 --> 00:38:04,719
Speaker 2: Ecuador to the islands. You know, so there are people

747
00:38:04,800 --> 00:38:07,120
Speaker 2: here and there, but they were the only people living

748
00:38:07,160 --> 00:38:09,800
Speaker 2: there for until the Whitmer showed up. After all of

749
00:38:09,880 --> 00:38:12,279
Speaker 2: this happened, you know, the Whitmer stayed there. There was

750
00:38:12,320 --> 00:38:15,680
Speaker 2: another very prominent family called the Cruise family. They are like,

751
00:38:15,960 --> 00:38:18,759
Speaker 2: you know, the Floriana family. I think you could say

752
00:38:19,480 --> 00:38:20,840
Speaker 2: they own a lot of the land up in the

753
00:38:20,920 --> 00:38:24,200
Speaker 2: highlands where where a lot of this took place. Wonderful people,

754
00:38:24,560 --> 00:38:26,839
Speaker 2: really big family. I think there's about four hundred people

755
00:38:26,840 --> 00:38:31,440
Speaker 2: who live there now. The restaurants, the situation is very interesting.

756
00:38:31,600 --> 00:38:33,320
Speaker 2: If you want to go eat there, you have to

757
00:38:33,400 --> 00:38:36,080
Speaker 2: call the ahead of time. They don't just open for service.

758
00:38:36,160 --> 00:38:38,359
Speaker 2: You have to say, I would like dinner reservation at

759
00:38:38,400 --> 00:38:40,040
Speaker 2: this time, and then they go. You like, the only

760
00:38:40,040 --> 00:38:42,200
Speaker 2: people in the dinner. They'll cook just for you. You know.

761
00:38:42,280 --> 00:38:44,520
Speaker 2: It's still kind of a difficult life. It's still sort

762
00:38:44,520 --> 00:38:48,399
Speaker 2: of remote. They still have delivery issues, they have Wi

763
00:38:48,480 --> 00:38:51,239
Speaker 2: Fi issues. When I went there, I you know, I

764
00:38:51,280 --> 00:38:53,719
Speaker 2: could go days at a time without connecting anywhere. But

765
00:38:53,960 --> 00:38:57,040
Speaker 2: it's it's a I mean, it's an absolutely stunning island,

766
00:38:57,239 --> 00:38:59,279
Speaker 2: and the people are amazing. I think I met every

767
00:38:59,600 --> 00:39:02,839
Speaker 2: every member of the cruise family when I was there,

768
00:39:02,960 --> 00:39:05,920
Speaker 2: and they're all they're all really wonderful. But it's a

769
00:39:06,080 --> 00:39:08,520
Speaker 2: thriving island now. It thrives on tourism. There's a lot

770
00:39:08,560 --> 00:39:11,880
Speaker 2: of conservation efforts going on that they're all very proud of.

771
00:39:12,160 --> 00:39:14,800
Speaker 2: During the time in my book, the glavibus tortoise was

772
00:39:14,840 --> 00:39:19,320
Speaker 2: extinct on Floriana. They had been long extinct actually, and

773
00:39:19,520 --> 00:39:21,800
Speaker 2: they're trying to do all of these repopulation efforts and

774
00:39:21,840 --> 00:39:24,600
Speaker 2: conservation efforts in terms of bringing back dangered species.

775
00:39:25,120 --> 00:39:29,560
Speaker 1: So when Hines and Margaret's daughter passes away, will she

776
00:39:29,719 --> 00:39:31,920
Speaker 1: be the last of that family on the island.

777
00:39:32,440 --> 00:39:35,440
Speaker 2: No, she has two daughters. Yeah, so they are running

778
00:39:35,480 --> 00:39:38,359
Speaker 2: two hotels on the island, and so there are still

779
00:39:38,360 --> 00:39:39,000
Speaker 2: Whitmer's there.

780
00:39:39,160 --> 00:39:41,440
Speaker 1: What did she have to say about everything that happened

781
00:39:41,480 --> 00:39:43,239
Speaker 1: that's the focus of your book. Did she have an

782
00:39:43,280 --> 00:39:44,320
Speaker 1: opinion about any of it?

783
00:39:44,800 --> 00:39:46,960
Speaker 2: Well, it's funny you asked that. You know, she would

784
00:39:47,160 --> 00:39:50,600
Speaker 2: in her later years invite journalists to come over, you know,

785
00:39:50,719 --> 00:39:53,160
Speaker 2: for them a glass of orange wine, maybe accept a

786
00:39:53,200 --> 00:39:56,239
Speaker 2: gift of fifty dollars or something, and she would talk

787
00:39:56,440 --> 00:39:58,960
Speaker 2: about the old days, and she would talk about the

788
00:39:59,000 --> 00:40:01,480
Speaker 2: Baroness and her of the Baroness, and she would talk

789
00:40:01,480 --> 00:40:03,880
Speaker 2: about Dory and her bressions of Dory and Ritter. But

790
00:40:04,040 --> 00:40:07,000
Speaker 2: she would never she would never talk about what she

791
00:40:07,120 --> 00:40:09,560
Speaker 2: thinks happened. She would say in Spanish, and I'm not

792
00:40:09,640 --> 00:40:12,520
Speaker 2: going My Spanish is too or for me to say

793
00:40:12,560 --> 00:40:18,200
Speaker 2: it without being completely embarrassed. A closed mouth amidst no flies.

794
00:40:18,680 --> 00:40:20,280
Speaker 1: She was fond of saying okay.

795
00:40:20,560 --> 00:40:22,840
Speaker 2: And so of course she knews more than what she

796
00:40:23,280 --> 00:40:25,719
Speaker 2: what she led on, more than she ever talked about

797
00:40:25,840 --> 00:40:30,120
Speaker 2: or wrote about. But she she never spilled anything. And

798
00:40:30,280 --> 00:40:33,680
Speaker 2: I think Hancock was the other person who knew everything also,

799
00:40:34,320 --> 00:40:37,960
Speaker 2: and he wrote I found in the archives. He wrote

800
00:40:37,960 --> 00:40:39,840
Speaker 2: that he was never going to you know, he was

801
00:40:39,840 --> 00:40:41,160
Speaker 2: going to take that to the grave with him and

802
00:40:41,239 --> 00:40:41,560
Speaker 2: he did.

803
00:40:42,200 --> 00:40:42,439
Speaker 1: Hmm.

804
00:40:42,840 --> 00:40:43,000
Speaker 2: You know.

805
00:40:43,120 --> 00:40:45,480
Speaker 1: I did one season of my show and it was

806
00:40:45,560 --> 00:40:48,719
Speaker 1: based on a family feud that happened in the mid

807
00:40:48,800 --> 00:40:52,960
Speaker 1: to late eighteen hundreds in Virginia between two families that

808
00:40:53,080 --> 00:40:57,520
Speaker 1: were connected through marriage. And I spoke to both sides

809
00:40:57,560 --> 00:40:59,600
Speaker 1: of the family and they were happy to talk. And

810
00:40:59,800 --> 00:41:03,040
Speaker 1: you know this ended in a terrible tragedy. But I

811
00:41:03,120 --> 00:41:05,359
Speaker 1: was trying to get a hold of one woman who

812
00:41:05,560 --> 00:41:08,480
Speaker 1: was in her eighties or nineties, and she said, absolutely,

813
00:41:08,480 --> 00:41:10,920
Speaker 1: I'm not talking about any of this. And you know,

814
00:41:11,040 --> 00:41:14,440
Speaker 1: I was going through another family member and I said, uh, okay,

815
00:41:14,600 --> 00:41:17,479
Speaker 1: tell me what's happening, and she just said, my parents

816
00:41:17,520 --> 00:41:20,480
Speaker 1: had never said talk about this ever. And I was thinking,

817
00:41:20,600 --> 00:41:24,160
Speaker 1: this happened in like eighteen sixty. This is so long ago.

818
00:41:24,320 --> 00:41:27,359
Speaker 1: It does not matter to people. Sometimes it does not matter.

819
00:41:27,960 --> 00:41:29,719
Speaker 1: I mean, that happened a long day, and your story

820
00:41:29,800 --> 00:41:31,920
Speaker 1: is a little more contemporary than mine. But I think

821
00:41:32,000 --> 00:41:35,239
Speaker 1: that when things happen in your family like that, that

822
00:41:36,040 --> 00:41:40,000
Speaker 1: clearly shifts the trajectory of your family and makes you

823
00:41:40,120 --> 00:41:42,000
Speaker 1: kind of look at the people you know, who you

824
00:41:42,360 --> 00:41:45,680
Speaker 1: who were around you differently than Yeah, I guess you

825
00:41:45,800 --> 00:41:48,360
Speaker 1: clam up, but she stayed. That's interesting.

826
00:41:48,880 --> 00:41:51,640
Speaker 2: Yeah. I also think it was sort of she enjoyed

827
00:41:51,760 --> 00:41:56,200
Speaker 2: being a mystery. She enjoyed it, you know, And if

828
00:41:56,239 --> 00:41:59,240
Speaker 2: she's filled all her secrets, what's the motive for anybody

829
00:41:59,280 --> 00:42:01,400
Speaker 2: to come and talk or heredy lore. She really I

830
00:42:01,440 --> 00:42:03,520
Speaker 2: think she really enjoyed sort of being the last one

831
00:42:03,600 --> 00:42:06,239
Speaker 2: standing and she was the last one standing. And I

832
00:42:06,280 --> 00:42:07,480
Speaker 2: think it was a point of pride for her, and

833
00:42:07,520 --> 00:42:10,120
Speaker 2: I think she earned it. I think Margaret, Margaret deserved that.

834
00:42:10,480 --> 00:42:13,080
Speaker 1: Did Harry end up staying on the island too, or

835
00:42:13,120 --> 00:42:15,240
Speaker 1: did any of the other family members end up staying

836
00:42:15,600 --> 00:42:16,720
Speaker 1: later on Harry?

837
00:42:17,840 --> 00:42:20,520
Speaker 2: You know, again, this feeds into also the later part

838
00:42:20,560 --> 00:42:22,600
Speaker 2: of the Floriana lore. How are you had to guide

839
00:42:22,640 --> 00:42:25,480
Speaker 2: to a tragic voting accident? Lot of Margaret's son in

840
00:42:25,560 --> 00:42:29,480
Speaker 2: laws died in a mysterious accident. There's all kinds of

841
00:42:29,560 --> 00:42:33,920
Speaker 2: mysterious deaths happening. People vanished, you know, long in the seventies,

842
00:42:34,000 --> 00:42:37,960
Speaker 2: or a couple other American tourists spanished on Floriana. There's

843
00:42:38,040 --> 00:42:40,800
Speaker 2: like a bunch of sort of weird disappearances on Floriana

844
00:42:41,080 --> 00:42:44,919
Speaker 2: like decades after this. You know, it all feeds into

845
00:42:45,200 --> 00:42:47,920
Speaker 2: the mystique and the sort of dark lore of Floriana.

846
00:42:48,400 --> 00:42:51,440
Speaker 1: What will it be about your book that resonates with

847
00:42:52,080 --> 00:42:54,400
Speaker 1: the modern reader? What are they going to read and

848
00:42:54,520 --> 00:42:56,960
Speaker 1: just say, gosh that this part could have happened today

849
00:42:57,080 --> 00:42:58,480
Speaker 1: besides crazy panties.

850
00:42:59,080 --> 00:43:01,160
Speaker 2: Oh, I think crazy Fanny's gonna happen today.

851
00:43:01,160 --> 00:43:03,880
Speaker 1: I don't know. That's what I mean. I mean, aside

852
00:43:03,920 --> 00:43:06,239
Speaker 1: from crazy pancia. Oh right, what do you think the

853
00:43:06,280 --> 00:43:08,839
Speaker 1: book says? I mean, what is it about the society

854
00:43:09,000 --> 00:43:11,640
Speaker 1: that makes people say, wow, this is really actually this

855
00:43:11,920 --> 00:43:13,080
Speaker 1: reminds me of this or that.

856
00:43:13,600 --> 00:43:16,800
Speaker 2: I wrote part of this book sating COVID during a

857
00:43:16,840 --> 00:43:20,480
Speaker 2: period when we were extremely self isolated. Of course, you know,

858
00:43:20,560 --> 00:43:22,440
Speaker 2: they were self isolated by choice and we were not.

859
00:43:23,160 --> 00:43:27,080
Speaker 2: But you can see how it does start playing tricks

860
00:43:27,120 --> 00:43:28,680
Speaker 2: on your brain. You know, there was a there was

861
00:43:28,880 --> 00:43:31,600
Speaker 2: a corrosive effect that can happen when when you're in

862
00:43:31,640 --> 00:43:34,560
Speaker 2: a predicament like that. But to me also, I thought everybody,

863
00:43:34,719 --> 00:43:37,120
Speaker 2: you know, it's timeless and universal, the desire that we

864
00:43:37,200 --> 00:43:41,239
Speaker 2: can flee the chaos and challenges of our daily life

865
00:43:41,320 --> 00:43:44,640
Speaker 2: and go somewhere simpler. But you know, we we cannot

866
00:43:44,800 --> 00:43:47,720
Speaker 2: escape the Tyrian of our own nature. Humans cannot escape

867
00:43:47,760 --> 00:43:50,520
Speaker 2: the Turian of our own nature. And you know, uh,

868
00:43:51,040 --> 00:43:53,880
Speaker 2: seeking utopia is always going to be a doomed quest.

869
00:43:54,040 --> 00:43:56,759
Speaker 2: We are not capable of creating utopia because what was

870
00:43:56,800 --> 00:43:59,560
Speaker 2: a hell? As other people and I just feel like

871
00:43:59,640 --> 00:44:02,359
Speaker 2: that that sort of a universal and timeless message. Who

872
00:44:02,480 --> 00:44:05,279
Speaker 2: ever thought about getting away from it? All will read

873
00:44:05,320 --> 00:44:08,600
Speaker 2: this and see what happens when you get away from

874
00:44:08,640 --> 00:44:08,879
Speaker 2: it all.

875
00:44:09,000 --> 00:44:11,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, be careful what you wish for, you know, I

876
00:44:11,360 --> 00:44:14,640
Speaker 1: tell my teenage daughters all the time. You can only

877
00:44:14,680 --> 00:44:17,319
Speaker 1: control yourself. You can't control other people. You can only

878
00:44:17,360 --> 00:44:20,800
Speaker 1: control your own actions and reactions. I think this is

879
00:44:20,840 --> 00:44:23,640
Speaker 1: a great illustration of that. It's the best laid plans.

880
00:44:23,680 --> 00:44:26,359
Speaker 1: You come here. You've got Frederick and Dorry who were

881
00:44:26,480 --> 00:44:29,640
Speaker 1: just there and could have lived a perfectly happy little life,

882
00:44:29,840 --> 00:44:31,040
Speaker 1: you know, on this island.

883
00:44:31,120 --> 00:44:33,160
Speaker 2: I don't could anybody be happy with Frederick?

884
00:44:33,239 --> 00:44:35,160
Speaker 1: I don't know. No, No, you're right. I know you

885
00:44:35,239 --> 00:44:38,160
Speaker 1: said that they had were a volatile relationship, but you

886
00:44:38,280 --> 00:44:42,279
Speaker 1: know there would be less intrusion, right, And I'm sure

887
00:44:42,320 --> 00:44:44,680
Speaker 1: they wished for the days when it was just the Whitmers.

888
00:44:44,760 --> 00:44:48,160
Speaker 1: They're annoying them when the Baroness shows up. But it's

889
00:44:48,200 --> 00:44:52,320
Speaker 1: amazing the chaos that one person can add to the story.

890
00:44:52,520 --> 00:44:55,439
Speaker 1: So I thought about isolation when I was reading about

891
00:44:55,480 --> 00:44:57,560
Speaker 1: it too. And you know, the isolation that we feel

892
00:44:57,640 --> 00:44:59,840
Speaker 1: now was with social media is helpful, but at the

893
00:44:59,840 --> 00:45:02,239
Speaker 1: time same time it can make you feel isolated. Yeah,

894
00:45:02,320 --> 00:45:05,839
Speaker 1: So that idea of living off the grid is very

895
00:45:06,080 --> 00:45:08,880
Speaker 1: interesting for me. And then thinking about this story in

896
00:45:08,920 --> 00:45:11,080
Speaker 1: the way that you've described it, boy, it doesn't take

897
00:45:11,160 --> 00:45:13,400
Speaker 1: much for it to really turn into a nightmare.

898
00:45:13,880 --> 00:45:14,080
Speaker 2: Yeah.

899
00:45:14,520 --> 00:45:16,960
Speaker 1: So you know, I've read you know, your books for

900
00:45:17,000 --> 00:45:19,680
Speaker 1: a long time, and the common thread with you that

901
00:45:19,840 --> 00:45:24,000
Speaker 1: I don't read much with other nonfiction writers is that

902
00:45:24,320 --> 00:45:31,000
Speaker 1: you have universally very passionate characters. The last story the

903
00:45:31,160 --> 00:45:33,279
Speaker 1: man from was Chicago. Is that what it was? Now

904
00:45:33,280 --> 00:45:34,360
Speaker 1: I'm trying to think of that story.

905
00:45:34,480 --> 00:45:35,880
Speaker 2: Well, he was born in Chicago, but he was a

906
00:45:35,920 --> 00:45:36,920
Speaker 2: Cincinnati bootlegger.

907
00:45:37,120 --> 00:45:40,440
Speaker 1: Bootlegger, Yeah, And I mean just like murdering someone in

908
00:45:40,480 --> 00:45:42,640
Speaker 1: the middle of a park, and these are people who

909
00:45:42,760 --> 00:45:46,760
Speaker 1: have so much pent up rage or passion or angst

910
00:45:46,880 --> 00:45:48,680
Speaker 1: or something, and you just don't get that in a

911
00:45:48,760 --> 00:45:52,160
Speaker 1: lot of nonfiction books. I think from deep history, I

912
00:45:52,280 --> 00:45:55,560
Speaker 1: think you gravitate towards that, and certainly you gravitate towards

913
00:45:55,760 --> 00:46:01,240
Speaker 1: controversial but very fiery, very intriguing women. I know, women

914
00:46:01,560 --> 00:46:04,040
Speaker 1: tend to really be central characters for you. And this

915
00:46:04,120 --> 00:46:06,239
Speaker 1: doesn't sound like it was an exception. It sounds like

916
00:46:06,320 --> 00:46:09,080
Speaker 1: this was just falls right into your wheelhouse.

917
00:46:09,760 --> 00:46:13,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, you know, and I and you're correct about

918
00:46:13,000 --> 00:46:15,839
Speaker 2: all those things, and I would add also, I think

919
00:46:16,120 --> 00:46:19,000
Speaker 2: there's a theme of self reinvention. I'm fascinated by the

920
00:46:19,080 --> 00:46:21,680
Speaker 2: idea of people sort of trying to start over to

921
00:46:21,920 --> 00:46:24,600
Speaker 2: and having varying degrees of success with that, but the

922
00:46:24,719 --> 00:46:27,720
Speaker 2: idea that you can and I think also that's universal.

923
00:46:27,840 --> 00:46:30,200
Speaker 2: Everybody at one time or another thinks they can they

924
00:46:30,239 --> 00:46:33,680
Speaker 2: can reinvent themselves in some capacity. It's so funny. I

925
00:46:33,800 --> 00:46:35,960
Speaker 2: finished this book and I'm like, where do I go

926
00:46:36,080 --> 00:46:39,160
Speaker 2: from here? Like, I don't like, you know, it's like

927
00:46:39,239 --> 00:46:42,640
Speaker 2: I can't find anything that I'm as passionate about. I'm hoping,

928
00:46:42,960 --> 00:46:45,120
Speaker 2: I'm hoping it comes, but right now I'm just like,

929
00:46:45,520 --> 00:46:46,960
Speaker 2: how do I top crazy Panties?

930
00:46:47,239 --> 00:46:51,080
Speaker 1: I don't know, you can't or the demoted lover, who

931
00:46:51,120 --> 00:46:53,000
Speaker 1: I want to know more about. I don't want to

932
00:46:53,080 --> 00:46:55,360
Speaker 1: know the main pick. I want to know who the

933
00:46:55,520 --> 00:46:56,560
Speaker 1: demoted lover was.

934
00:46:56,840 --> 00:46:58,640
Speaker 2: I think I should just call them that demoted lover.

935
00:46:59,239 --> 00:47:02,759
Speaker 1: There you go, crazy fantasy and demotive lever. So it

936
00:47:02,840 --> 00:47:05,040
Speaker 1: sounds like there's a movie that's coming out about the

937
00:47:05,120 --> 00:47:08,920
Speaker 1: same subject from Ron Howard, which is amazing. Tell me

938
00:47:09,120 --> 00:47:09,960
Speaker 1: what you know about this?

939
00:47:10,360 --> 00:47:12,759
Speaker 2: Well it is. I can't wait to watch it. It's

940
00:47:13,160 --> 00:47:17,040
Speaker 2: premiering at the Toronto International Film Festival. It's called Eden,

941
00:47:17,360 --> 00:47:20,440
Speaker 2: and it stars Jude Law as Frederick Gritter. It stars

942
00:47:20,480 --> 00:47:24,040
Speaker 2: Sidney Sweeney as Margaret Whitmer, Vanessa Kirby as Story Strausch,

943
00:47:24,560 --> 00:47:27,239
Speaker 2: and added to Armis is the Baroness. So it should

944
00:47:27,280 --> 00:47:27,840
Speaker 2: be incredible.

945
00:47:28,520 --> 00:47:30,560
Speaker 1: And I think the big thing people need to know

946
00:47:30,840 --> 00:47:34,480
Speaker 1: is there's a huge difference between Hollywood and the real story.

947
00:47:34,840 --> 00:47:37,040
Speaker 1: So if you want to get a good sense for

948
00:47:37,800 --> 00:47:40,799
Speaker 1: the differences in sort of the poetic license that an

949
00:47:40,800 --> 00:47:44,200
Speaker 1: amazing director like Ron Howard took on this, it would

950
00:47:44,200 --> 00:47:45,960
Speaker 1: be a great comparison to read your book and see

951
00:47:46,000 --> 00:47:49,000
Speaker 1: the movie both. So I hope that's what people are

952
00:47:49,040 --> 00:47:49,360
Speaker 1: going to do.

953
00:47:50,239 --> 00:47:52,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, and go to my book and look at the

954
00:47:52,239 --> 00:47:55,360
Speaker 2: pictures and see the glow up. The glow up that

955
00:47:55,600 --> 00:47:59,280
Speaker 2: the real people get with these Hollywood stars is quite amazing.

956
00:48:00,440 --> 00:48:03,279
Speaker 1: What the hell the hell that all these people went

957
00:48:03,360 --> 00:48:05,680
Speaker 1: through and put each other through. Don't you think they

958
00:48:05,760 --> 00:48:08,479
Speaker 1: deserve a Hollywood glow up with Jude Law?

959
00:48:08,960 --> 00:48:11,800
Speaker 2: Absolutely, I think Frederi would be very very pleased.

960
00:48:11,880 --> 00:48:13,719
Speaker 1: Actually, it's gonna be hard to beat a bunch of

961
00:48:13,760 --> 00:48:16,480
Speaker 1: hot people on an island together trying to kill each

962
00:48:16,520 --> 00:48:19,280
Speaker 1: other with crazy panties exactly.

963
00:48:19,640 --> 00:48:21,800
Speaker 2: I really want to see if Ron Howard put crazy

964
00:48:21,880 --> 00:48:24,120
Speaker 2: panties in the script, if that those words, actually, if

965
00:48:24,160 --> 00:48:25,799
Speaker 2: you're in a script, it'll be interesting to see.

966
00:48:27,280 --> 00:48:29,480
Speaker 1: Okay, thank you, I appreciate this's great.

967
00:48:29,560 --> 00:48:30,600
Speaker 2: Thank you so much, Cape.

968
00:48:30,640 --> 00:48:44,720
Speaker 1: This was fun. If you love historical true crime stories,

969
00:48:45,000 --> 00:48:47,879
Speaker 1: check out the audio versions of my books The Ghost Club,

970
00:48:48,080 --> 00:48:51,080
Speaker 1: All That Is Wicked, and American Sherlock and Don't Forget.

971
00:48:51,320 --> 00:48:54,640
Speaker 1: There are twelve seasons of my historical true crime podcast,

972
00:48:54,880 --> 00:48:58,920
Speaker 1: Tenfold More Wicked right here in this podcast feed, scroll

973
00:48:59,000 --> 00:49:01,240
Speaker 1: back and give them a listen if you haven't already.

974
00:49:01,719 --> 00:49:05,160
Speaker 1: This has been an exactly right production. Our senior producer

975
00:49:05,280 --> 00:49:09,680
Speaker 1: is Alexis a Morosi. Our associate producer is Christina Chamberlain.

976
00:49:10,080 --> 00:49:13,640
Speaker 1: This episode was mixed by John Bradley. Curtis heath is

977
00:49:13,680 --> 00:49:18,680
Speaker 1: our composer, artwork by Nick Toga. Executive produced by Georgia Hardstark,

978
00:49:18,840 --> 00:49:23,160
Speaker 1: Karen Kilgarriff and Danielle Kramer. Follow Wicked Words on Instagram

979
00:49:23,400 --> 00:49:27,280
Speaker 1: at tenfold More Wicked and on Facebook at Wicked Words

980
00:49:27,400 --> 00:49:27,680
Speaker 1: Pod