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Speaker 1: Quody dais, but Joseph's gotten more. August eight through August ninth,

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Speaker 1: nineteen sixty nine, the city of Los Angeles was in

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Speaker 1: fear because they knew that there was a killer on

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Speaker 1: the loose. They had evidence of it. Someone had gone

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Speaker 1: into home in a very upscale area in LA and

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Speaker 1: had butchered five people. It was terrifying. But you know,

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Speaker 1: that case resonated not just in LA, but all over

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Speaker 1: the US. There were stories that were written, there were

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Speaker 1: fears that were expressed in the news. Who was this?

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Speaker 1: Who would do this? But all the way over on

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Speaker 1: the other side of the United States, in North Carolina,

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Speaker 1: Fort Bragg, to be very specific, there was another mass

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Speaker 1: homicide that had been committed and it had eerie connections,

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Speaker 1: at least seemingly on the surface, to those nights back

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Speaker 1: in August of sixty nine. Six months later, terror would

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Speaker 1: revisit the country and people had questions, and still to

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Speaker 1: this day, this question still linger. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan

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Speaker 1: and this is body bags. Dave. You and I were

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Speaker 1: kids when the case cases that we're going to discuss

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Speaker 1: today went down. I really have no memory of the

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Speaker 1: so called Jeffrey MacDonald case from a real time.

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Speaker 2: Perspective, Jeffrey McDonald has to this day claimed that a

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Speaker 2: group of hippies came into his house at two o'clock

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Speaker 2: in the morning and attacked him and killed his wife

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Speaker 2: and children and left him for debt. I mean, and

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Speaker 2: this is Jeffer McDonald's a Green Bray doctor, green Beret

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Speaker 2: doctor at the height of the Vietnam War, stationed in

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Speaker 2: Fort Bragg, North Carolina. And he's married to his high

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Speaker 2: school sweetheart. They've got two little girls, and they've got

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Speaker 2: another one on the way. And here is this green

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Speaker 2: Bray doctor who you know, calls nine well, I don't

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Speaker 2: know they'd have nine one one, but called whatever version

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Speaker 2: it was back then to call for emergency.

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Speaker 1: Help, probably zero. I think that that's actually what she

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Speaker 1: used to do. You call for the operator, and isn't

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Speaker 1: that interesting? Imagine being the operator? And so yeah, I'm

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Speaker 1: trying to get in contact with my sister in Connecticut.

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Speaker 1: Can you connect me? And then the next call you

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Speaker 1: get some guy saying send helps.

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Speaker 2: And fascinating is that the way those calls came in.

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Speaker 2: They were frightening to the people taking the calls, you know,

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Speaker 2: And anyway, so Jeffrey McDonald claims that, And I mentioned

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Speaker 2: this to you in the prep because something has always

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Speaker 2: fascinated me about this case with regard to Jeffrey McDonald. Again, remember,

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Speaker 2: this is a man who claims he tried to defend

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Speaker 2: his family and they and they were murdered, and that

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Speaker 2: he is perfectly innocent. He didn't do anything wrong other

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Speaker 2: than not defend his wife and kids. But he always

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Speaker 2: starts the story with a couple of different things depending

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Speaker 2: on who he's telling it to. I believe when he

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Speaker 2: was on Dick Cavot show talking about the murders, he

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Speaker 2: mentioned watching a late night TV show, you know, but

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Speaker 2: he talks about washing dishes at two am. Always thought

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Speaker 2: the reason he shares something like that, who cares that

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Speaker 2: you were washing dishes at two am? Who cares? But

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Speaker 2: it was to show like he's this he is the all.

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Speaker 2: He's such a good guy. This green Bereat doctor was

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Speaker 2: washing dishes at two in the morning because he didn't

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Speaker 2: want his pregnant wife to wake up to it in

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Speaker 2: the morning. This is a good guy.

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Speaker 1: Joe. Well, well, Dave, you know the thing about it

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Speaker 1: is is that when you when you're questioning a suspect

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Speaker 1: you have someone that'll give you that kind of granular

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Speaker 1: detail like that, there's there's this presentation that they're trying

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Speaker 1: to do in order to convince you of the validity

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Speaker 1: of the statements that they're making by virtue of the

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Speaker 1: intensity or the level of detail that they can give you,

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Speaker 1: because in many people's minds, that states to them, well,

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Speaker 1: if I can give them these fine details about what

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Speaker 1: was going on at that particular time, that means that

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Speaker 1: I'm espousing the truth. And of course, you know, when

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Speaker 1: you're an investigator and you look at someone and they're

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Speaker 1: going through this traumatic event and they can give you

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Speaker 1: those kinds of details at that moment in time, you

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Speaker 1: kind of raise your eyebrow. Because I've sat across from

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Speaker 1: people that have been in the midst of an attack

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Speaker 1: and they have I've had people over the course of

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Speaker 1: my career I try to talk to and I don't

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Speaker 1: want to say that they were catatonic, where you know

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Speaker 1: they've got the fixed stare where they're looking like beyond you.

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Speaker 1: But it feels like I've experienced that a number of

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Speaker 1: times where they can't give you they're even nonverbal, And

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Speaker 1: so what's fascinating is when you get that original statement

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Speaker 1: from somebody that has witnessed something that was attacked, perhaps

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Speaker 1: the themselves in the case of Jeffery McDonald, how much

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Speaker 1: how much detail did they give at that time where

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Speaker 1: they all over the board? Did the story change? And

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Speaker 1: I mean like in a change where your brain is

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Speaker 1: kind of dropping down a little bit relative to the

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Speaker 1: trauma you've experienced, you have a bit more clarity, because

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Speaker 1: it's amazing. Sometimes you'll have these people, you know, that

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Speaker 1: will begin to kind of rapid fire and regurgitate things,

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Speaker 1: and you know you can hear fear in their voice,

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Speaker 1: and sometimes they don't get the facts straight, but it

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Speaker 1: doesn't mean that they're trying to deceive you. When you

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Speaker 1: have somebody that sits there and they can give you

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Speaker 1: these put fine points on things over and over again

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Speaker 1: like this, you got major questions. And I think that's

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Speaker 1: the case with Jeffery McDonald.

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Speaker 2: Dave that explains it. That thank you, that helps because

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Speaker 2: what he said happened. Joe, he claims, how do I

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Speaker 2: go over this because I asked Joe to do this

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Speaker 2: one jes see, I'll know, I don't think I've asked

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Speaker 2: for us to do anything else in specifics, but this

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Speaker 2: one in particular. And here's the reason. There was a

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Speaker 2: book called Fatal Vision written by Joe McGinnis. He was

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Speaker 2: hired by Jeffer McDonald's team to be embedded with them

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Speaker 2: after Jeffer MacDonald had been arrested accused of murder of

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Speaker 2: his family, and they allowed Joe McGinnis to be with

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Speaker 2: them in their defense at trial because they felt like

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Speaker 2: Jeffer McDonald felt like, this guy will tell the truth,

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Speaker 2: you know, he'll expose to the world what I've been through.

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Speaker 2: And Jeffrey McDonald didn't get his wish because Joe McGinnis

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Speaker 2: wasn't bedded with him. He did see Jeffer McDonald for

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Speaker 2: who he was. And the book he wrote, called Fatal Vision,

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Speaker 2: actually pushes the fact that Jeffer MacDonald murdered his wife

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Speaker 2: and children. After that, there were books about Jeffrey's innocence.

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Speaker 2: Fatal Justice comes to mind, a brilliant book. I don't

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Speaker 2: believe everything in it, just like I don't believe everything

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Speaker 2: in Fatal Vision, but I asked Jo to do because

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Speaker 2: I want to know what the forensics tell you as

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Speaker 2: an investigator, as a death investigator, do the forensics actually

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Speaker 2: solve the crime or is it really just here's what happened.

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Speaker 2: It could be his story, it might not be. That's

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Speaker 2: what I want, and then I want the opinion based

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Speaker 2: on the forensics. What do you believe, Joe. So I'm

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Speaker 2: going to lay this out very quickly. Jeffery McDonald made

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Speaker 2: a very specific claim, and we're going to use that

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Speaker 2: as Joe explains what happened to each individual in that

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Speaker 2: home that night. Jeffer McDonald claims that he had washed

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Speaker 2: the evening dinner dishes before deciding to go to bed.

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Speaker 2: His younger daughter, Kristen, had wet his side of the bed,

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Speaker 2: so he had taken her to her own bed, not

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Speaker 2: wanting to wake up his wife to change it by

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Speaker 2: changing the sheets. He had taken a blanket from Kristen's

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Speaker 2: room and fallen asleep up on the living room couch. Again,

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Speaker 2: this is Jeffrey McDonald's story. He's asleep on the couch

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Speaker 2: when he is awakened hearing Colette and Kimberly's screams and

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Speaker 2: Colette shouting Jeff, Jeff, help, why are they doing this

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Speaker 2: to me? Think about that for just a minute. As

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Speaker 2: he rose from the couch to go to their aid,

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Speaker 2: he was attacked by three male intruders, one black and

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Speaker 2: two white. The shorter of the two white men had

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Speaker 2: worn light, possibly surgical gloves. A fourth intruder he described

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Speaker 2: as a white female with a long blonde hair, possible wig,

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Speaker 2: and wearing high heeled knee high boots and a white

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Speaker 2: floppy hat partially covering her face. The individual stood nearby

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Speaker 2: holding a lighted candle and chanting quote, acid is groovy,

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Speaker 2: Kill the pigs. Acid is groovy, killed the pigs, McDonald claimed.

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Speaker 2: The three males then attacked him with a club and

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Speaker 2: an ice pick, with the female intruder shouting hit him again.

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Speaker 2: During the struggle, his pajama top was pulled over his

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Speaker 2: head to his wrists, and he had to use this

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Speaker 2: bound garment to ward off thrust from the ice pick.

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Speaker 2: Although eventually he was overcome by the assailants, nannock to

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Speaker 2: unconscious in the living room and of the hallway leading

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Speaker 2: to the bedrooms. When he regained consciousness, the intruders were gone.

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Speaker 2: He stumbles from room to room, attempting mouth to mouth

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Speaker 2: resuscitation on each of his daughters, to no avail. Before

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Speaker 2: finding his wife. He then pulled a small pairing knife

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Speaker 2: from Colette's chest and he tossed it on the floor

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Speaker 2: and attempted to find her pulse. He draped the pajama

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Speaker 2: jacket over her body and phone for help. That is

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Speaker 2: Jeffrey McDonald's story, Joe.

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Speaker 1: I know you sit here and you listen to all

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Speaker 1: of these details relative that he's offering up in his

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Speaker 1: statement and kind of how this went down. The last

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Speaker 1: thing that the operator claims that she heard was him screaming, essentially,

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Speaker 1: we need to get them to W, which W apparently

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Speaker 1: means the hospital on base at Fort Bragg. And then

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Speaker 1: there's kind of a thunk at the end, sounding, according

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Speaker 1: to the operator, like the phone hit the wall. But

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Speaker 1: when the MPs at Fort Brack arrived on scene, they

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Speaker 1: saw something that. In their time at Fort Bragg patrol

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Speaker 1: in the streets, going from family structure to family structure

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Speaker 1: in the married housing area, dealing with drunk gis or

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Speaker 1: maybe even having to break up a few domestic disputes,

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Speaker 1: there's no way they could have been prepared for what

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Speaker 1: lay before their eyes. You know, you mentioned the term

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Speaker 1: just second ago, Dave, the word groovy, the idea I'm

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Speaker 1: thinking about that that song from the fifth from the

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Speaker 1: sixties and everything is groovy, you know, and even Liberachi.

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Speaker 1: And this has almost become like a meme on the internet.

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Speaker 1: He actually redoes this lot. He does it on air

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Speaker 1: on his show with a bunch of these dancers that

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Speaker 1: are dressed. I guess, like, I don't know what their

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Speaker 1: perception of sixties hippie culture was. Of course, they're all

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Speaker 1: clean and have nice haircuts, and you know, their nails

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Speaker 1: are not dirty. And they're all dancing around him as

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Speaker 1: he's at his piano playing this feeling groovy. And when

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Speaker 1: you mentioned this term, because we had talked about this before,

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Speaker 1: that image came to mind. And now you've got an assailant,

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Speaker 1: an alleged assailant that has come into this home that's

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Speaker 1: actually taken time Dave to light a candle and has

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Speaker 1: begun chanting in that environment. Let me tell you something

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Speaker 1: about the South in the late sixties. Fort Bragg is

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Speaker 1: located adjacent to the town of Faithful, North Carolina. All right,

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Speaker 1: I can tell you affirmatively that it was not considered

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Speaker 1: to be a haven for hippie culture in the nineteenth sixties.

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Speaker 1: You know, it's not that kind of place. It's a

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Speaker 1: rough and tumbled military place as as as much as

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Speaker 1: hippie culture in particular tried to distance himself from the

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Speaker 1: Vietnam War. I can't imagine for quote unquote hippies gravitating

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Speaker 1: to arguably one of the most military locations in the nation.

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Speaker 1: That alone, to me is striking. And then that they

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Speaker 1: could get access to the house.

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Speaker 2: No, housing was not easy to get into.

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Speaker 1: No, it's not. And you know you have to go

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Speaker 1: through the gate in order to get access to his place.

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Speaker 1: So you've you've got this. You know, you've got these

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Speaker 1: these four people that show up on base and they

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Speaker 1: specifically attack this guy who's twenty six years old that

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Speaker 1: has just finished medical school, done an internship, not a residency,

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Speaker 1: has done an internship at this point in time, and

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Speaker 1: he's not I got to tell you this. The media

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Speaker 1: for years and years said that he's a Green Beret.

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Speaker 1: He's not a damn Green Beret. He's not a Green Beret.

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Speaker 1: He volunteered to be a physician assigned to special operations.

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Speaker 1: I think it was I think it was fifth group,

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Speaker 1: third group or fifth group, I can't remember anyway. On

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Speaker 1: post at at Fort Bragg, and Fort Bragg is the

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Speaker 1: center for training for RSF guys, and it still remains

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Speaker 1: that way today. He was not a Green Beret. I

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Speaker 1: think that that goes into this idea of this you

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Speaker 1: know what you were talking about with him washing dishes.

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Speaker 1: He's like this noble warrior, you know, and you see

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Speaker 1: him all festooned early on in his in his military

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Speaker 1: get up that he's wearing along with his green beret.

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Speaker 1: And by the way, most Green Berets that I know

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Speaker 1: don't like to be referred to as green berets. That's

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Speaker 1: just not something that they like. They refer to themselves

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Speaker 1: as silent warriors, unlike to see who write a book

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Speaker 1: all the time. The SF guys, the SF guys, you know,

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Speaker 1: they're quiet people most of the time. This guy, I

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Speaker 1: can only imagine it must have been cringe worthy for them.

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Speaker 1: You know, these guys have been in high intensity battles

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Speaker 1: low those many years in Vietnam, and you got this

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Speaker 1: guy who's showing up in this environment claiming to be

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Speaker 1: one of them. And he's a physician, and Dave, none

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Speaker 1: of the stuff that he's saying makes sense relative to

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Speaker 1: the injuries that we see portrayed, particularly at autopsy on

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Speaker 1: all three of these symptoms, well, let's take it that way.

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Speaker 2: One thing I want to point out as we head

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Speaker 2: into this, Joe, the crime scene okay, again mentioning this

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Speaker 2: is base housing, because you have to include that into

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Speaker 2: the mix. As you pointed out, not an easy thing

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Speaker 2: to get on. It was during the height of the

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Speaker 2: Vietnam War February seventeenth, nineteen seventy. But after the murders

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Speaker 2: of collect Kim and Kristen, this.

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Speaker 1: Dwelling was.

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Speaker 2: Not cleaned up, it wasn't destroyed. It was actually locked

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Speaker 2: up and kept so that if and when a trial happened,

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Speaker 2: the jury could actually go and see the crime scene.

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Speaker 2: And when again February seventeenth, nineteen seventy his trial did

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Speaker 2: not take place until nineteen seventy nine, and the jury

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Speaker 2: was able to walk the crime scene. They were actually

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Speaker 2: able to go in and look at what Jeffrey McDonald

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Speaker 2: said happened and where it happened. This is something that

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Speaker 2: has really been a problem for me in crimes where

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Speaker 2: or a crime scene is destroyed. For instance, out in Idaho,

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Speaker 2: the Coburger crime scene. From the moment they destroyed that,

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Speaker 2: there was no reason to destroy that house other than

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Speaker 2: covering up something. Is all I can figure not accusing anybody.

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Speaker 2: I'm just saying I don't I mean emotional damage to

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Speaker 2: a community because there is a murder house. I understand

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Speaker 2: what they're saying there. I just think that justice is

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Speaker 2: more important than emotional feelings for the day.

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Speaker 1: Anyway, please, can I say something real quick? You know,

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Speaker 1: the the idea that you go in and tear down

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Speaker 1: a structure, And I don't want to go too far

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Speaker 1: field with this because I know that we're focused on

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Speaker 1: different McDonald and by the way, a big round of

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Speaker 1: applause for those individuals that had the forethought in this

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Speaker 1: case to lock it down. It isn't amazing how we

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Speaker 1: can learn lessons from the past and people still haven't

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Speaker 1: learned them to this point. The same way with Parkland.

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Speaker 1: They locked Parkland down. You think about Idaho and they

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Speaker 1: tear the thing down because it makes somebody sad. I'm

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Speaker 1: reflecting back right now over all of the death cases

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Speaker 1: that I work, particularly homicides, Dave. You know, I've been

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Speaker 1: to the same address multiple times on unrelated homicides, Like

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Speaker 1: I've had succession of homicides that have occurred in the

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Speaker 1: same dwelling. Those houses were never torn down. You know.

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Speaker 1: And I was actually talking to a group recently in

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Speaker 1: London and a former Scotland yard detective who worked for

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Speaker 1: them for thirty years, and I just asked him, I said, listen,

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Speaker 1: because they use the term and a lot of people

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Speaker 1: use the term raising raising a location, which means to

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Speaker 1: tear it down. Have you, guys ever do you in

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Speaker 1: your recollection do you ever remember raising a location as

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Speaker 1: a result of of homicide? And he's like, no, that's absurd,

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Speaker 1: And so you look at that reflection. You know, after

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Speaker 1: all these years, Jeffrey McDonald, they were able to lock

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Speaker 1: this place down and they didn't care if it, you know,

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Speaker 1: made somebody feel as that they need to go to

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Speaker 1: a cry corner or get their blanket or what it

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Speaker 1: is there would be and go over and shake over

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Speaker 1: the idea that, oh my gosh, horrible homicides took place there.

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Speaker 1: That's not what they were about. They wanted to discover

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Speaker 1: the truth. And sometimes if you're absent that evidence, Dave,

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Speaker 1: there's no way to go to.

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Speaker 2: So, now that we know what Jeffrey McDonald's story was

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Speaker 2: the biggest, the pajamatop comes to mind, you know, because

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Speaker 2: again now claiming to be a green break doctor, anybody,

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Speaker 2: you know what, I have such an I have such

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Speaker 2: respect for men and women that join the military service

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Speaker 2: in the United States of America. I just I have

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Speaker 2: if you, if you're a military person, I just you

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Speaker 2: have my respect. And I don't picture any man allowing

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Speaker 2: this to take place in his home and to only

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Speaker 2: have a bump on the head and a small incision

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Speaker 2: on his chest while his family is totally destroyed. I

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Speaker 2: don't see that as a possibility, especially from somebody who

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Speaker 2: is in the military and is trained. Whether he's dream

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Speaker 2: Brayer or not, he is still a supposed to be

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Speaker 2: a man, and he's supposed to protect his family. And

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Speaker 2: his story is I don't I don't understand how he

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Speaker 2: could have so few injuries while there's such overkill on

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Speaker 2: the girls. That's for starters. So let's get into the

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Speaker 2: forensics show what based on his story. Now, when you

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Speaker 2: go to a crimes when you're investigator, your death investigator,

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Speaker 2: and you hit a scene like this, do you listen

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Speaker 2: to his story of what happened? Or do you block

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Speaker 2: that out and just let's look at the bodies and

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Speaker 2: what's going on in this house? How does that begin

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Speaker 2: for you?

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Speaker 1: Well, you're not gonna you're, first off, you're not going

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Speaker 1: to sit down and have an in depth discussion with

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Speaker 1: this subject before you enter into the scene. As a

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Speaker 1: matter of fact, I just soon only rely upon the

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Speaker 1: initial report that I'm getting from law enforcement when I

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Speaker 1: roll up, so that look we've got and this this way.

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Speaker 1: It would commonly go, look, we've got three dead in

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Speaker 1: this location. This is where they're located. We've got a

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Speaker 1: husband over here that has been injured. We're looking for

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Speaker 1: purpose right now, because he states that these subjects came

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Speaker 1: into his home and committed these crimes. This is what

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Speaker 1: he says happened at in the immediate You're not gonna

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Speaker 1: have all those fine details at this point in time.

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Speaker 1: And at that point time, I'm gonna say, okay, fine,

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Speaker 1: that's enough. I've heard enough, because I don't you know,

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Speaker 1: I don't want to from a forensic standpoint, I don't

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Speaker 1: necessarily want to be encumbered by that knowledge. Now, if

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Speaker 1: there's something dangerous in there, or if there's something like it,

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Speaker 1: you know where you'll get cues from folks like particularly

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Speaker 1: uniform officers that will roll up. They'll say things like, look,

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Speaker 1: when you get to the front door. I'm just throwing

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Speaker 1: this out there as an example. We had to kick

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Speaker 1: the door down, so you'll see wood all over the floor,

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Speaker 1: you know where the door facing was knocked out, or

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Speaker 1: there's a huge puddle of blood. Be careful where you step.

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Speaker 1: That's information that has great utility for me because when

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Speaker 1: I go in, I want to be able to observe

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Speaker 1: each one of these bodies inside to in the pristine state,

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Speaker 1: pristine as it applies to the context of the crime scene.

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Speaker 1: I don't want any kind of outside element coming in.

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Speaker 1: And again, going back to Tate, Lobbyanca, and specifically the

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Speaker 1: Tait case, you know the cues that you know, doctor

359
00:24:26,880 --> 00:24:30,800
Speaker 1: Noguchi gave that he wrote about, you know in his

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Speaker 1: book because he was at the scene of Tate. He

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Speaker 1: said that his eyes always go up. That's the first

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Speaker 1: place he looks. He doesn't look at the bodies. His

363
00:24:39,800 --> 00:24:42,399
Speaker 1: eyes always go up. He looks at the ceiling, He

364
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Speaker 1: looks at the surroundings, and then he kind of makes

365
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Speaker 1: he targets until he makes his way down to the body,

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Speaker 1: because he wants to understand the entire environment and the

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Speaker 1: context of the bodies in that environment before he makes

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Speaker 1: any kind of assessment beyond that, and that's that's very important.

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Speaker 1: And when I read that book and read that statement

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Speaker 1: that's that he'd made all those years ago, it kind

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Speaker 1: of rung true. And I find it interesting. You know

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Speaker 1: that we're you know that we're talking about this now

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Speaker 1: with Jeffrey MacDonald. So when you enter into an environment

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Speaker 1: like this nowadays, what you would do is you would

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Speaker 1: probably break off into teams, and each team would handle

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Speaker 1: an individual body. Uh to process the body. You'd have

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Speaker 1: somebody that would handle Collett's body, the wife who has

378
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Speaker 1: just these horrendous injuries that she is sustained, Dave, the

379
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Speaker 1: injuries alone that collect sustained. And by the way, you've

380
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Speaker 1: got multiple weapons involved in this. She doesn't just have

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Speaker 1: stab one. She's got puncture wounds as well. And these

382
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Speaker 1: puncture wounds arise from something you don't hear much about nowadays,

383
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Speaker 1: and that's an ice pick, and so it's been driven

384
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Speaker 1: into her multiple times. I've given this thought, as you know,

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Speaker 1: as a as an investigator, why would she have multiple

386
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Speaker 1: stab wounds and multiple puncture wounds. You've got multiple weapons involved,

387
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Speaker 1: and I think that it's to give the appearance, Dave,

388
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Speaker 1: that you've got multiple perpetrators. So you've got somebody that

389
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Speaker 1: is thinking about this this far in advance that Okay,

390
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Speaker 1: not only am I going to use one knife, I'll

391
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Speaker 1: use two knives. And let me see what else can

392
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Speaker 1: I use? Oh yeah, an ice pick? We're not too

393
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Speaker 1: far removed. During that period of time when people relied

394
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Speaker 1: on ice picks, you'd have, you know, and it would

395
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Speaker 1: not have been like a too distant of the memory

396
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Speaker 1: to know that. You know, probably his grandparents, maybe his

397
00:26:57,280 --> 00:27:00,959
Speaker 1: parents even had had ice delivered to their home and

398
00:27:01,000 --> 00:27:03,000
Speaker 1: you'd have to chip it off. So everybody had an

399
00:27:03,040 --> 00:27:05,840
Speaker 1: ice pick in the house. My grandmother had several in

400
00:27:05,880 --> 00:27:10,960
Speaker 1: the house. And old guys back in the day used

401
00:27:11,000 --> 00:27:14,600
Speaker 1: to carry ice picks with them to defend themselves with

402
00:27:14,840 --> 00:27:19,080
Speaker 1: because they're easily concealed. They don't have the same profile

403
00:27:19,160 --> 00:27:21,080
Speaker 1: as a knife. Does you know you can carry an

404
00:27:21,119 --> 00:27:25,639
Speaker 1: ice pick? You know the I don't know if it

405
00:27:25,680 --> 00:27:28,679
Speaker 1: was bad battally Rory Brown, but he had a razor

406
00:27:28,720 --> 00:27:31,440
Speaker 1: in his shoe, I know that. But you would old

407
00:27:31,480 --> 00:27:35,320
Speaker 1: guys would carry carry ice picks in their shoes. And

408
00:27:35,359 --> 00:27:37,960
Speaker 1: so it's a very it's a very savvy kind of

409
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Speaker 1: street street kind of weapon that you would use almost

410
00:27:41,560 --> 00:27:45,159
Speaker 1: like a shive that's created in a prison, which is

411
00:27:45,359 --> 00:27:49,639
Speaker 1: fascinating to me. But the fact that just Collette alone

412
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Speaker 1: is attacked on multiple planes of her body, and she

413
00:27:54,560 --> 00:28:01,040
Speaker 1: is so viciously attacked Dave that you see several areas

414
00:28:01,080 --> 00:28:06,720
Speaker 1: of concentrated injuries on her that are kind of varietal.

415
00:28:06,840 --> 00:28:11,320
Speaker 1: They'll go, You'll have clusters here, clusters there, And it's

416
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Speaker 1: almost an attempt, I think, to give the impression that

417
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Speaker 1: this was a frenzied killing when it very well might

418
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Speaker 1: not have been. All right, So.

419
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Speaker 2: I'm kind of not at wits end, but I didn't

420
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Speaker 2: really think about the multiple the weapons, you know, switching

421
00:28:35,880 --> 00:28:38,000
Speaker 2: them up to have the appearance of more than one person.

422
00:28:38,200 --> 00:28:42,480
Speaker 2: Jeffy McDonald went to Princeton. He's not an idiot intellectually,

423
00:28:43,680 --> 00:28:51,040
Speaker 2: and I'm picturing him and the story that the prosecution

424
00:28:51,240 --> 00:28:54,320
Speaker 2: laid out of how it all happened. Again, now back

425
00:28:54,360 --> 00:28:58,400
Speaker 2: to motive, which when you're in death investigator, motive and

426
00:28:58,560 --> 00:29:00,880
Speaker 2: story and all that, that's not part of it, is it.

427
00:29:00,960 --> 00:29:03,280
Speaker 2: I mean, you're really just there, here's the body, here's

428
00:29:03,280 --> 00:29:04,800
Speaker 2: the evidence. What happened?

429
00:29:06,200 --> 00:29:09,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I don't I don't care about anybody's motive,

430
00:29:09,920 --> 00:29:13,000
Speaker 1: particularly at a crom scene, it has it's not even

431
00:29:13,040 --> 00:29:16,720
Speaker 1: on the radar. You start to get into motive and

432
00:29:17,040 --> 00:29:20,360
Speaker 1: it clouds clouds things up because you know, one thing

433
00:29:20,400 --> 00:29:24,280
Speaker 1: I failed to mention with Collette. If you're talking to

434
00:29:24,320 --> 00:29:28,320
Speaker 1: me about somebody's you know why you know, which is

435
00:29:28,360 --> 00:29:31,680
Speaker 1: a question as you well know, I hate why would

436
00:29:31,760 --> 00:29:35,760
Speaker 1: you do this? Then that's going to distract me. And

437
00:29:36,040 --> 00:29:39,240
Speaker 1: just like I've I've been distracted right now relative to

438
00:29:39,240 --> 00:29:41,000
Speaker 1: this case because one of the things I forgot to

439
00:29:41,040 --> 00:29:44,680
Speaker 1: mention that not only does she have injuries that are

440
00:29:44,680 --> 00:29:49,920
Speaker 1: generated by a knife and from an ice pick, she's

441
00:29:49,960 --> 00:29:54,360
Speaker 1: also been beaten with a club day and so that,

442
00:29:54,600 --> 00:29:57,520
Speaker 1: you know, to think about what somebody's motivation was, it

443
00:29:57,520 --> 00:30:00,360
Speaker 1: sounds like something you'd hear in an acting claus innovation,

444
00:30:01,760 --> 00:30:04,640
Speaker 1: you know, And I don't know, I don't know what

445
00:30:04,680 --> 00:30:08,120
Speaker 1: their motivation was, but I can tell you with Collette

446
00:30:08,760 --> 00:30:14,480
Speaker 1: you can actually see that the individual was highly motivated

447
00:30:14,480 --> 00:30:17,080
Speaker 1: in the sense that it's a frenzied killing and she's

448
00:30:17,880 --> 00:30:29,360
Speaker 1: she's been so beaten and traumatized that she's got I

449
00:30:29,400 --> 00:30:33,320
Speaker 1: think that she's been stabbed twenty one times with an

450
00:30:33,320 --> 00:30:38,240
Speaker 1: ice pick sixteen times in the neck, in the chest

451
00:30:38,280 --> 00:30:42,160
Speaker 1: with a knife, and her trachea, which is kind of interesting,

452
00:30:42,640 --> 00:30:46,240
Speaker 1: is severed in two places. Well, you know, you might

453
00:30:46,280 --> 00:30:50,280
Speaker 1: think about cutting a throat, but let's just say that

454
00:30:50,360 --> 00:30:54,240
Speaker 1: you are a physician. Anatomically, you're going to think about, well,

455
00:30:54,400 --> 00:30:58,320
Speaker 1: what would be one of the ways to facilitate somebody's death, well,

456
00:30:58,680 --> 00:31:01,440
Speaker 1: to get into their airway. As a matter of fact,

457
00:31:01,960 --> 00:31:04,960
Speaker 1: if she even had one little sign of life in her, Dave,

458
00:31:06,960 --> 00:31:12,640
Speaker 1: and the EMTs arrived, they couldn't get her intubated, like

459
00:31:12,720 --> 00:31:16,480
Speaker 1: you could not put a you couldn't establish an airway

460
00:31:16,520 --> 00:31:21,080
Speaker 1: on her in the field. You would have to perhaps

461
00:31:21,400 --> 00:31:24,400
Speaker 1: you could go in and I've seen this happen where

462
00:31:24,400 --> 00:31:29,640
Speaker 1: you have a slice to the trachea. EMTs sometimes will

463
00:31:29,680 --> 00:31:34,240
Speaker 1: go into the trauma area and create an airway there externally,

464
00:31:34,440 --> 00:31:38,520
Speaker 1: just to be able to inflate the lungs. Okay, So

465
00:31:38,680 --> 00:31:41,400
Speaker 1: that's kind of an interesting injury that her trachea is

466
00:31:41,440 --> 00:31:58,360
Speaker 1: actually cut in two places here, Dave, anatomically, But Dave,

467
00:31:58,400 --> 00:32:05,200
Speaker 1: I gotta tell you, I saw a a comment and

468
00:32:05,280 --> 00:32:08,000
Speaker 1: you actually referenced it just a few months ago about

469
00:32:08,640 --> 00:32:15,200
Speaker 1: Collette McDonald had apparently taken his pajama top off and

470
00:32:15,360 --> 00:32:21,240
Speaker 1: had laid it across her chest. And by the way,

471
00:32:21,600 --> 00:32:26,960
Speaker 1: he also had removed apparently a paring knife from her chest,

472
00:32:27,280 --> 00:32:35,400
Speaker 1: which any doctor knows that if someone has an instrument,

473
00:32:36,480 --> 00:32:43,240
Speaker 1: a knife, a branch from a tree, a piece of rebar,

474
00:32:43,880 --> 00:32:47,920
Speaker 1: you don't take it out, period, you leave it in place.

475
00:32:48,280 --> 00:32:51,960
Speaker 1: He shouldn't know that. But yet she's got this paring

476
00:32:52,000 --> 00:32:53,640
Speaker 1: knife that's laying on the floor next to her, that

477
00:32:53,680 --> 00:32:56,280
Speaker 1: was apparently pulled out of her chest by him. But

478
00:32:56,360 --> 00:32:59,440
Speaker 1: back to the pajama top, it's laying on top of her,

479
00:33:00,280 --> 00:33:03,719
Speaker 1: and when the PD rolls up, that's not the only

480
00:33:03,760 --> 00:33:05,880
Speaker 1: thing that's laying on top of her. He's laying on

481
00:33:05,960 --> 00:33:09,960
Speaker 1: top of her. His head is literally resting on her chest.

482
00:33:10,680 --> 00:33:16,080
Speaker 1: And to say that that his injuries that he sustained

483
00:33:16,120 --> 00:33:18,719
Speaker 1: in the attack of these evil hippies that are chanting

484
00:33:18,880 --> 00:33:23,320
Speaker 1: everything is groovy, or where the hell killed the pigs? Yeah,

485
00:33:23,400 --> 00:33:27,840
Speaker 1: acid is groovy killed the pigs. You know, he's he

486
00:33:27,880 --> 00:33:31,880
Speaker 1: doesn't show signs of much signs of being a warrior

487
00:33:31,920 --> 00:33:32,400
Speaker 1: as far.

488
00:33:32,280 --> 00:33:35,760
Speaker 2: As hey, all right, Joe, can you tell me what

489
00:33:36,280 --> 00:33:41,360
Speaker 2: injuries did Jeffrey McDonald sustain that made it so he

490
00:33:41,520 --> 00:33:45,120
Speaker 2: was not able to protect his family. He's the only

491
00:33:45,200 --> 00:33:47,720
Speaker 2: survivor in the whole group. He's the only one that

492
00:33:47,800 --> 00:33:51,720
Speaker 2: see he's the only real threat to anyone, and yet

493
00:33:51,880 --> 00:33:56,240
Speaker 2: he's the one that was left with minimal injuries.

494
00:33:56,320 --> 00:33:57,160
Speaker 1: So what what what?

495
00:33:57,480 --> 00:33:58,440
Speaker 2: What were his injuries?

496
00:33:59,120 --> 00:34:03,240
Speaker 1: Well, he's got Okay, first off, he's got like what

497
00:34:03,280 --> 00:34:10,000
Speaker 1: they're referring to as a sharp force injury. It's about

498
00:34:13,000 --> 00:34:16,560
Speaker 1: maybe five eighths of an inch in depth in his chest,

499
00:34:17,960 --> 00:34:25,440
Speaker 1: and the instrument that was used apparently collapsed partially collapsed

500
00:34:25,680 --> 00:34:31,040
Speaker 1: his lung. Okay, and as horrible as that is, and

501
00:34:31,080 --> 00:34:35,520
Speaker 1: this was on if folks, will you know, place your

502
00:34:35,520 --> 00:34:40,040
Speaker 1: hand on your right your right aspect of your rib

503
00:34:40,080 --> 00:34:45,560
Speaker 1: cage and you can feel in between the ribs was

504
00:34:45,600 --> 00:34:48,640
Speaker 1: referred to as the intercostal space. And doctors know this

505
00:34:48,800 --> 00:34:54,399
Speaker 1: because when, for instance, when you're trying to put in

506
00:34:54,480 --> 00:34:58,840
Speaker 1: like an emergency room, if you have a chest that

507
00:34:58,960 --> 00:35:02,200
Speaker 1: is filled with blood. One of the things that happens

508
00:35:02,200 --> 00:35:05,480
Speaker 1: in the emergency room in cases of severe trauma like

509
00:35:05,520 --> 00:35:08,080
Speaker 1: car accident, that sort of thing, you make an incision

510
00:35:09,160 --> 00:35:12,719
Speaker 1: in the intercostal space and you put in a tester,

511
00:35:13,360 --> 00:35:16,640
Speaker 1: a chest or drain. So there's actually a tube that

512
00:35:16,760 --> 00:35:19,360
Speaker 1: they'll stick into the chest and it pulls all of

513
00:35:19,400 --> 00:35:22,400
Speaker 1: that blood that's free floating in the chest and what

514
00:35:22,440 --> 00:35:26,239
Speaker 1: would referred to as the plural spaces. Interestingly enough, that's

515
00:35:26,239 --> 00:35:29,160
Speaker 1: where this injury was, and it clipped his lung. It's

516
00:35:29,160 --> 00:35:34,840
Speaker 1: a survivable injury, and probably it's in my mind at least,

517
00:35:34,840 --> 00:35:37,360
Speaker 1: it's one of those kinds of injuries where you're scratching

518
00:35:37,400 --> 00:35:42,839
Speaker 1: your head and you're thinking, you know what, this is

519
00:35:43,160 --> 00:35:48,440
Speaker 1: quite ghastly, but this is something that is not necessarily

520
00:35:48,600 --> 00:35:50,960
Speaker 1: life threatening, particularly in the immediate if you've got an

521
00:35:50,960 --> 00:35:53,920
Speaker 1: emergency room that's right down the road. So that's one

522
00:35:53,960 --> 00:35:56,200
Speaker 1: of the injuries that he had. And then he's got

523
00:35:56,239 --> 00:36:01,560
Speaker 1: a knock on the head as well, and it created

524
00:36:01,760 --> 00:36:04,920
Speaker 1: what's referred to what they eventually assessed with him as

525
00:36:04,960 --> 00:36:10,560
Speaker 1: a mild concussion. You take that and compare to one

526
00:36:10,600 --> 00:36:12,680
Speaker 1: of his children, which i'll speak to in a moment,

527
00:36:13,880 --> 00:36:17,560
Speaker 1: that literally had a depressed skull fracture and it looks

528
00:36:17,560 --> 00:36:19,799
Speaker 1: like it was generally with the same club that was

529
00:36:19,920 --> 00:36:26,480
Speaker 1: used probably on Collette, probably on this child. And he's

530
00:36:26,800 --> 00:36:29,879
Speaker 1: The entries that are really significant with McDonald, though, Dave,

531
00:36:30,480 --> 00:36:37,040
Speaker 1: are the things that he had on his on his face,

532
00:36:37,160 --> 00:36:45,120
Speaker 1: in his chest, and they were cuts, bruses, and fingernails scratches, which,

533
00:36:45,160 --> 00:36:52,839
Speaker 1: of course that indicates that whoever it was that fought

534
00:36:52,960 --> 00:36:56,279
Speaker 1: him was fighting for their life. Well, you know what

535
00:36:56,320 --> 00:37:03,080
Speaker 1: they say about mama bears, you know the worst that

536
00:37:03,440 --> 00:37:07,399
Speaker 1: you know, male bears are terrifying. Nothing like a mama bear,

537
00:37:07,520 --> 00:37:12,399
Speaker 1: though if her cubs are around, in particular, it's gonna

538
00:37:12,440 --> 00:37:14,560
Speaker 1: rip you to shred. She's gonna do everything that she can.

539
00:37:15,080 --> 00:37:18,799
Speaker 1: And look, Colette, she's got these two precious girls that

540
00:37:18,880 --> 00:37:22,600
Speaker 1: are there. She's being attacked. First off, she's trying to

541
00:37:22,600 --> 00:37:25,040
Speaker 1: save her own life. She's got a life within her.

542
00:37:25,200 --> 00:37:29,200
Speaker 1: Dave right, she's pregnant with her son. She's gonna do

543
00:37:29,239 --> 00:37:33,840
Speaker 1: everything she can. And I think that over the years

544
00:37:33,840 --> 00:37:39,320
Speaker 1: people have put forth the idea that this all initiated

545
00:37:39,560 --> 00:37:46,439
Speaker 1: perhaps as an argument between Collette and McDonald, and that

546
00:37:46,760 --> 00:37:49,239
Speaker 1: I think I'd read one statement at one point in

547
00:37:49,239 --> 00:37:51,759
Speaker 1: time where she had picked up an object and had

548
00:37:51,800 --> 00:37:55,040
Speaker 1: thrown it at him, and he became so incensed over

549
00:37:55,080 --> 00:37:59,520
Speaker 1: this that he began to, you know, attack her, which

550
00:37:59,560 --> 00:38:02,439
Speaker 1: is a fascinating, fascinating when you begin to talk about

551
00:38:02,480 --> 00:38:05,560
Speaker 1: physical evidence it's being presented on his body, and Dave,

552
00:38:05,640 --> 00:38:08,920
Speaker 1: I was looking, man, look, I looked at the photos

553
00:38:09,040 --> 00:38:14,319
Speaker 1: of McDonald that they took at that particular time. I've

554
00:38:14,360 --> 00:38:18,879
Speaker 1: seen people get more ghastly injuries in a strong windstorm

555
00:38:19,280 --> 00:38:24,160
Speaker 1: than what this guy is presenting with. I'm completely unimpressed

556
00:38:25,520 --> 00:38:27,880
Speaker 1: when you take that and you compare it to what

557
00:38:28,880 --> 00:38:32,680
Speaker 1: his children went through, and of course what Collet went through. Dave,

558
00:38:34,200 --> 00:38:39,000
Speaker 1: one of the things that really stuck out to me

559
00:38:39,280 --> 00:38:44,920
Speaker 1: is that when she's got these really nasty lacerations to

560
00:38:45,040 --> 00:38:50,120
Speaker 1: her forearms, I think that this could be a combination

561
00:38:50,239 --> 00:38:53,560
Speaker 1: of both being attacked with an edged weapon. In addition

562
00:38:53,640 --> 00:38:58,160
Speaker 1: to that, it could be also being clubbed. They're kind

563
00:38:58,200 --> 00:39:02,919
Speaker 1: of nasty and regular. When you see these things, they're

564
00:39:02,960 --> 00:39:08,920
Speaker 1: not It's not something that you would see. For instance,

565
00:39:09,000 --> 00:39:15,000
Speaker 1: she's got like this gaping, and anytime you hear gaping

566
00:39:15,200 --> 00:39:18,440
Speaker 1: most of the time, that's going to be indicative of

567
00:39:18,640 --> 00:39:24,560
Speaker 1: laceration where the skin has really opened up. The edges

568
00:39:24,600 --> 00:39:31,960
Speaker 1: are very jagged because it's a blow with a blunt

569
00:39:32,040 --> 00:39:35,920
Speaker 1: object that literally tears the skin, you know, with you know,

570
00:39:35,960 --> 00:39:38,000
Speaker 1: with sharp force injuries, and we're going to do a

571
00:39:38,040 --> 00:39:40,239
Speaker 1: whole We're going to do a whole episode of Body

572
00:39:40,280 --> 00:39:45,560
Speaker 1: Bags about sharp force injuries. With sharp force injuries, you

573
00:39:45,600 --> 00:39:49,400
Speaker 1: have these kind of clean margins where they're they're perfect

574
00:39:50,200 --> 00:39:53,920
Speaker 1: because you're talking about using a steel blade on a

575
00:39:53,960 --> 00:39:56,439
Speaker 1: surface and it cuts it through. But if you have

576
00:39:56,600 --> 00:40:01,640
Speaker 1: a laceration that arises from blunt force trauma and it

577
00:40:01,719 --> 00:40:05,560
Speaker 1: literally tears the skin. So it's on the aspect of

578
00:40:05,600 --> 00:40:09,480
Speaker 1: her I'm actually looking at it right now. It's on

579
00:40:09,560 --> 00:40:14,920
Speaker 1: the aspect of her lateral right wrist. So just imagine

580
00:40:14,960 --> 00:40:20,319
Speaker 1: if you will lifting your right arm fist clenched so

581
00:40:20,440 --> 00:40:24,359
Speaker 1: that you're trying to block or parry, you know, use

582
00:40:24,680 --> 00:40:29,640
Speaker 1: a fencing term, You're trying to parry this attack, and

583
00:40:29,719 --> 00:40:34,920
Speaker 1: so the perpetrator when they're looking at you, the surface

584
00:40:34,960 --> 00:40:38,480
Speaker 1: that they're aiming for is blocked. Maybe they're going for

585
00:40:38,480 --> 00:40:41,720
Speaker 1: a head strike, it's blocked. And so the first place

586
00:40:41,880 --> 00:40:46,759
Speaker 1: that the injury is where a contact is made is

587
00:40:46,840 --> 00:40:50,680
Speaker 1: actually on this lateral aspect of the forearm, and it

588
00:40:51,200 --> 00:40:56,440
Speaker 1: opens up this kind of gaping, jagged, it's almost crescent shaped.

589
00:40:56,480 --> 00:41:00,160
Speaker 1: It's the way it looks. So yeah, she's she's he's

590
00:41:00,160 --> 00:41:03,719
Speaker 1: got injuries on her arms as well. But again back

591
00:41:03,760 --> 00:41:08,320
Speaker 1: to him. He's got nothing. I mean, he's he's literally

592
00:41:08,360 --> 00:41:12,520
Speaker 1: got nothing on his body that gives you the indication

593
00:41:13,520 --> 00:41:17,279
Speaker 1: that he, you know, he's trying to fend anything off.

594
00:41:17,320 --> 00:41:21,839
Speaker 1: And here here's another interesting fact quote unquote about this

595
00:41:22,160 --> 00:41:27,040
Speaker 1: Green Beret doctor. Green Berets, in particular special Forces guys

596
00:41:28,400 --> 00:41:30,480
Speaker 1: even back then. We hear a lot about it now,

597
00:41:31,440 --> 00:41:34,799
Speaker 1: but even back then, they were highly skilled at what's

598
00:41:34,840 --> 00:41:39,920
Speaker 1: called c QB and that's close quarters combat. Okay, so

599
00:41:40,320 --> 00:41:42,399
Speaker 1: it's not just like going in and clearing a room.

600
00:41:43,600 --> 00:41:46,600
Speaker 1: You have to try to understand the basics of some

601
00:41:46,640 --> 00:41:49,239
Speaker 1: of the martial arts that are out there because you're

602
00:41:49,280 --> 00:41:52,080
Speaker 1: going to be fighting people one on one. Well, he

603
00:41:52,160 --> 00:41:57,240
Speaker 1: allegedly had they receive training in hand to hand combat,

604
00:41:57,360 --> 00:42:00,000
Speaker 1: and it makes sense, you know, he would have been

605
00:42:00,120 --> 00:42:04,920
Speaker 1: embedded with these guys there at Fort Bragg day to

606
00:42:05,000 --> 00:42:07,279
Speaker 1: day training. They probably say, Doc, you've got to go

607
00:42:07,320 --> 00:42:09,839
Speaker 1: through this training along with us. It doesn't mean he's

608
00:42:09,880 --> 00:42:12,520
Speaker 1: gone through Greenbery school. As a matter of fact, the

609
00:42:12,560 --> 00:42:16,879
Speaker 1: only thing I really find reference to is that he'd

610
00:42:16,920 --> 00:42:20,160
Speaker 1: gone to airborne school. Well, Dave, you know, clerk typists

611
00:42:20,320 --> 00:42:22,360
Speaker 1: go through airborne school if they're going to be assigned

612
00:42:22,400 --> 00:42:25,839
Speaker 1: to the eighty second, you know, or the one hundred

613
00:42:25,880 --> 00:42:29,080
Speaker 1: and seventy third they're going to be assigned. You have

614
00:42:29,120 --> 00:42:32,799
Speaker 1: to go through airborne training, which is a school that

615
00:42:32,880 --> 00:42:40,120
Speaker 1: lasts about three weeks and it's basically gravity. That's it,

616
00:42:40,560 --> 00:42:43,239
Speaker 1: you know. I mean, yeah, it's rigorous. It's rigorous, but

617
00:42:43,320 --> 00:42:47,240
Speaker 1: it's not like going through Special Forces training, which last years.

618
00:42:47,480 --> 00:42:50,600
Speaker 2: The background on McDonald was that he's this brilliant, near

619
00:42:50,719 --> 00:42:53,759
Speaker 2: genius doctor who loves his country so much. Is not

620
00:42:53,920 --> 00:42:55,839
Speaker 2: enough just to be in the army, but he is

621
00:42:56,160 --> 00:42:59,040
Speaker 2: the best of the best, the Green Beret. He can fight,

622
00:42:59,239 --> 00:43:01,719
Speaker 2: and so he can basically go kill the enemy hand

623
00:43:01,719 --> 00:43:04,120
Speaker 2: to hand combat and then he can actually on his

624
00:43:04,200 --> 00:43:07,399
Speaker 2: way back, perform surgery on a fellow army and bring

625
00:43:07,440 --> 00:43:10,000
Speaker 2: him back. So Jeffrey McDonald is knocked out with a

626
00:43:10,000 --> 00:43:15,080
Speaker 2: booboo to the head and a small incision in his chest. Meanwhile,

627
00:43:15,680 --> 00:43:21,680
Speaker 2: his pregnant wife has defensive wounds on her arms. She

628
00:43:21,880 --> 00:43:27,359
Speaker 2: has been beaten, she has been torn up and stabbed

629
00:43:27,760 --> 00:43:36,480
Speaker 2: and just destroyed, just destroyed, and he has a booboo

630
00:43:36,480 --> 00:43:43,160
Speaker 2: on his head. But Joe, after moving from cole at MacDonald,

631
00:43:43,239 --> 00:43:46,840
Speaker 2: there are two little girls that are also there Kimmy

632
00:43:46,840 --> 00:43:51,200
Speaker 2: and Christy, and I don't know what either one of

633
00:43:51,200 --> 00:43:58,600
Speaker 2: those girls could have attested to. But these hippies walking

634
00:43:58,640 --> 00:44:01,480
Speaker 2: around one holding a camp Indell saying as his groovy

635
00:44:01,560 --> 00:44:05,279
Speaker 2: killed the pigs, somehow decide that we have to take

636
00:44:05,320 --> 00:44:09,040
Speaker 2: out these little girls as well. And again I'm going

637
00:44:09,080 --> 00:44:14,360
Speaker 2: back to McDonald's injuries, Jeffery McDonald, And you know, I

638
00:44:14,360 --> 00:44:16,960
Speaker 2: would think the girls would have a little less than that,

639
00:44:17,320 --> 00:44:21,160
Speaker 2: you know, to be killed, because there's no need They're little, tiny,

640
00:44:21,680 --> 00:44:23,440
Speaker 2: no need to do to them what you just did

641
00:44:23,480 --> 00:44:27,919
Speaker 2: to colladt. So what happened with the girls? How were

642
00:44:27,920 --> 00:44:28,440
Speaker 2: they killed?

643
00:44:29,000 --> 00:44:31,359
Speaker 1: Well? I think that it's important because you know, when

644
00:44:32,360 --> 00:44:42,120
Speaker 1: he which I believe he's feigning unconsciousness, feigning pretending. They

645
00:44:42,480 --> 00:44:50,000
Speaker 1: the ambulance people e MTS, they attempted CPR on him

646
00:44:50,160 --> 00:44:53,239
Speaker 1: when they arrived, and almost immediately he pops up. You know,

647
00:44:53,480 --> 00:44:55,560
Speaker 1: somebody starts doing chest compressions.

648
00:44:55,080 --> 00:44:58,480
Speaker 2: In a minute, Joe, Yeah, I didn't know this.

649
00:44:58,840 --> 00:45:01,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, I've never heard he pops to life all of

650
00:45:01,560 --> 00:45:06,319
Speaker 1: a sudden, Okay, which sounds like the biggest, you know,

651
00:45:07,760 --> 00:45:14,080
Speaker 1: odorous pile of excrement that you can you know, put forth.

652
00:45:14,960 --> 00:45:18,680
Speaker 1: You're you're going to you're you're not going to lay

653
00:45:18,680 --> 00:45:22,160
Speaker 1: there and have somebody compressing on your chest. But the

654
00:45:22,280 --> 00:45:26,640
Speaker 1: reason this is significant is that immediately as soon as

655
00:45:26,640 --> 00:45:32,200
Speaker 1: he pops up, he makes this exclamation about acid heads,

656
00:45:32,640 --> 00:45:39,480
Speaker 1: where he says, you know, look at my wife, and

657
00:45:39,520 --> 00:45:42,160
Speaker 1: then he makes reference to the fact that now this

658
00:45:42,239 --> 00:45:45,239
Speaker 1: is this is in the midst of them, you know,

659
00:45:45,320 --> 00:45:49,040
Speaker 1: treating him. I'm going to kill those acid heads. An

660
00:45:49,120 --> 00:45:53,200
Speaker 1: acid head is a term that was associated with hippies,

661
00:45:53,239 --> 00:45:56,320
Speaker 1: you know, because of lysergic acid, those sorts of things

662
00:45:56,520 --> 00:45:59,160
Speaker 1: that people would take acids really really when it popped

663
00:45:59,200 --> 00:46:02,120
Speaker 1: on the pop culture, if you will, and there were

664
00:46:02,120 --> 00:46:04,520
Speaker 1: a lot of people that were experimenting with acid back then.

665
00:46:04,920 --> 00:46:08,120
Speaker 1: The military was experimenting with acid back then. But that's

666
00:46:08,160 --> 00:46:12,080
Speaker 1: a story for another day. And so this is the

667
00:46:12,120 --> 00:46:15,080
Speaker 1: first thing you're going to say. And then as he

668
00:46:15,200 --> 00:46:18,280
Speaker 1: is being taken out of the house, he says, let

669
00:46:18,400 --> 00:46:23,239
Speaker 1: me see my kids, Let me see my kids, and

670
00:46:23,600 --> 00:46:27,800
Speaker 1: he's being carried off on a stretcher. Well, yeah, yeah, Jeffrey,

671
00:46:27,920 --> 00:46:31,359
Speaker 1: let's let's take a look at your kids. Let's do that.

672
00:46:31,520 --> 00:46:36,839
Speaker 1: Why don't we do that? Because Kimmy's five years old, Dave,

673
00:46:39,120 --> 00:46:42,439
Speaker 1: She's laying in her bed. She's laying in her bed,

674
00:46:42,480 --> 00:46:47,440
Speaker 1: she's on her left side, and this precious little child,

675
00:46:48,680 --> 00:46:51,720
Speaker 1: her skulls have been fractured. And I saw the images

676
00:46:51,760 --> 00:46:58,800
Speaker 1: of it, and it's it's ghastly, absolutely ghastly. She's the

677
00:46:58,800 --> 00:47:05,440
Speaker 1: They believe that she was at minimum struck twice, possibly more.

678
00:47:05,680 --> 00:47:09,840
Speaker 1: And so she's on the right side. This is the

679
00:47:09,920 --> 00:47:12,040
Speaker 1: right side of her skull. So just imagine that you're

680
00:47:12,120 --> 00:47:15,560
Speaker 1: laying in what we refer to as like a left

681
00:47:15,600 --> 00:47:19,840
Speaker 1: recumbent position. So left recumbent means your left side of

682
00:47:19,840 --> 00:47:24,000
Speaker 1: your body's contacting the surface, supporting the weight of your body.

683
00:47:24,920 --> 00:47:26,840
Speaker 1: I don't know about you. I'm a side sleeper, so

684
00:47:27,480 --> 00:47:29,719
Speaker 1: you know that's like, if you're a side sleeper, that's

685
00:47:29,719 --> 00:47:34,400
Speaker 1: a position. And apparently that's the position she was actually

686
00:47:34,680 --> 00:47:38,640
Speaker 1: attacked in or on. And so she was struck so

687
00:47:39,040 --> 00:47:43,400
Speaker 1: hard that not only is her skull fractured, Dave, but

688
00:47:43,440 --> 00:47:51,080
Speaker 1: in addition to that she struck her cheekbone is fractured.

689
00:47:51,680 --> 00:47:54,560
Speaker 1: And Dave, I got to tell you the McDonald's case

690
00:47:54,640 --> 00:47:56,759
Speaker 1: in and of itself. You know, I've never seen this

691
00:47:57,320 --> 00:48:02,920
Speaker 1: other than outside of a car accident. This child this

692
00:48:03,080 --> 00:48:08,560
Speaker 1: five year old was beaten so furiously that her cheekbone

693
00:48:09,160 --> 00:48:13,040
Speaker 1: is actually protruding through her skin. So this is going

694
00:48:13,120 --> 00:48:15,680
Speaker 1: to be a massive laceration. And when you see the

695
00:48:15,760 --> 00:48:21,920
Speaker 1: images that, you know, you know, just illustrate what kind

696
00:48:21,960 --> 00:48:26,040
Speaker 1: of force is involved with this child. It's again I

697
00:48:26,040 --> 00:48:31,400
Speaker 1: have to return to the to the word ghastly. You know,

698
00:48:31,440 --> 00:48:35,839
Speaker 1: who would have the motivation to do that, you know,

699
00:48:35,880 --> 00:48:37,480
Speaker 1: to a five year old? What could a five year

700
00:48:37,520 --> 00:48:40,359
Speaker 1: old ever have done? You had made mention of the fact, well,

701
00:48:40,880 --> 00:48:43,680
Speaker 1: what could they have seen? You know what, what could

702
00:48:43,719 --> 00:48:46,279
Speaker 1: they have seen? What could they have recounted, you know,

703
00:48:46,560 --> 00:48:50,839
Speaker 1: in a court. But it extends beyond that. She's been

704
00:48:50,880 --> 00:48:54,240
Speaker 1: beaten all of her body with this bludgeon that's being used.

705
00:48:57,160 --> 00:49:01,600
Speaker 1: And then I guess the hippie that are out there chanting,

706
00:49:02,320 --> 00:49:06,440
Speaker 1: you know that acid is groovy, decide, well, you know,

707
00:49:08,320 --> 00:49:11,800
Speaker 1: let's go in. And also in addition to beating this child,

708
00:49:12,480 --> 00:49:16,040
Speaker 1: let's stab her. She's been stabbed eight to ten times.

709
00:49:16,040 --> 00:49:21,600
Speaker 1: In addition of that, and again and again, Dave, she's

710
00:49:21,600 --> 00:49:26,000
Speaker 1: been stabbed in the neck. And so if you're if

711
00:49:26,040 --> 00:49:32,520
Speaker 1: you are a physician, you know that the airway in

712
00:49:32,600 --> 00:49:36,680
Speaker 1: and of itself is a critical location that you need

713
00:49:36,680 --> 00:49:40,160
Speaker 1: to have intact in order to save life. I find

714
00:49:40,160 --> 00:49:45,280
Speaker 1: it fascinating that would Collecte and Kimmy, both their necks

715
00:49:45,280 --> 00:49:50,719
Speaker 1: are attacked with a sharp instrument, because if you've had

716
00:49:50,760 --> 00:49:54,560
Speaker 1: any kind of trauma training and you're trying to resuscitate somebody,

717
00:49:54,719 --> 00:49:57,440
Speaker 1: you know for a fact that it's going to be

718
00:49:57,680 --> 00:50:01,600
Speaker 1: near impossible in this environment if they sustain those kinds

719
00:50:01,600 --> 00:50:05,200
Speaker 1: of injuries to bring them back from you know, bring

720
00:50:05,239 --> 00:50:08,960
Speaker 1: them back from death death doorstep, you can't do it.

721
00:50:08,960 --> 00:50:13,640
Speaker 1: It's very, very difficult not to mention, you know, when

722
00:50:14,120 --> 00:50:17,399
Speaker 1: an individual has been beaten so severely about the head

723
00:50:17,440 --> 00:50:22,200
Speaker 1: to the point where the skull is fractured. It's almost indescribable.

724
00:50:22,280 --> 00:50:28,319
Speaker 1: Dave Kristen, who's only two. Dave is found lying in

725
00:50:28,360 --> 00:50:33,440
Speaker 1: her bed. She again is on her left side, and

726
00:50:34,280 --> 00:50:41,520
Speaker 1: it's almost too too horrible to even put out there,

727
00:50:41,520 --> 00:50:44,320
Speaker 1: but it's been out there for years and for our friends,

728
00:50:44,400 --> 00:50:46,879
Speaker 1: you know, I just I want everybody to understand that

729
00:50:47,160 --> 00:50:53,239
Speaker 1: with this baby. You know, she's she stabbed Dave, I

730
00:50:53,280 --> 00:51:01,600
Speaker 1: think thirty three times in her chest and in her neck,

731
00:51:02,360 --> 00:51:07,719
Speaker 1: her hands, her back, and I wondered as I was,

732
00:51:08,080 --> 00:51:11,799
Speaker 1: you know, trying to and that's with a knife. That's

733
00:51:11,800 --> 00:51:17,880
Speaker 1: with a knife, okay, because there's an additional fifteen injuries

734
00:51:18,160 --> 00:51:23,840
Speaker 1: that she has that are with this ice pick. Okay,

735
00:51:23,880 --> 00:51:27,560
Speaker 1: She's got two knife wounds that actually penetrate her heart, Dave,

736
00:51:29,920 --> 00:51:33,440
Speaker 1: and the ice pick wounds are kind of shallow, you know,

737
00:51:33,480 --> 00:51:39,400
Speaker 1: compared to the knife wounds. But this this little angel,

738
00:51:39,920 --> 00:51:46,600
Speaker 1: she if she had an awareness because she lifted those

739
00:51:46,680 --> 00:51:50,840
Speaker 1: tiny little hands to defend herself, because she's got injuries

740
00:51:50,840 --> 00:51:54,640
Speaker 1: on her hands. You know, she's trying to fend this thing.

741
00:51:54,480 --> 00:51:59,560
Speaker 2: Off based on what you see there, Joe, do you

742
00:51:59,719 --> 00:52:04,919
Speaker 2: believe Eve Jeffrey McDonald's story of what happened at all?

743
00:52:05,880 --> 00:52:11,279
Speaker 1: No? No, not yeah, absolutely not. It It kind of

744
00:52:11,280 --> 00:52:16,200
Speaker 1: goes back to, you know, the old biblical story about

745
00:52:16,400 --> 00:52:20,680
Speaker 1: Cain and Abel, you know where uh, you know, God

746
00:52:20,880 --> 00:52:25,680
Speaker 1: is actually asking Cain, you know, where's your brother And

747
00:52:25,719 --> 00:52:29,440
Speaker 1: at one point in time, the scripture reads that you know,

748
00:52:29,760 --> 00:52:34,320
Speaker 1: your brother's blood cries out to me from the ground.

749
00:52:35,320 --> 00:52:39,080
Speaker 1: I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is body backs