Speaker 1: I'm Sam Edis and I'm Amy Nelson. Welcome to What's
Speaker 1: Her Story? With Sam and Amy. This is a show
Speaker 1: about the world's most remarkable women, their professional and personal journeys. Together,
Speaker 1: we'll hear from gold medalists, best selling authors, and leaders
Speaker 1: of the world's most iconic brands. Listen every Thursday or
Speaker 1: join the conversation anytime on Instagram at What's Her Story Podcast.
Speaker 1: Joanne Lee Mulinaro is known as a Korean Vegan. She
Speaker 1: is a lawyer turned TikTok superstar in New York Times
Speaker 1: bestselling author The Korean Vegan. Why the name, Well, I
Speaker 1: think the Korean Vegan was actually given to me by
Speaker 1: my then boyfriend, now has been I think we were
Speaker 1: like getting up in the morning, and this was before
Speaker 1: I was fully one thousand percent committed to being vegan,
Speaker 1: and I think he was trying to encourage me, and
Speaker 1: so was like, man, that risotto you made yesterday was
Speaker 1: so good. You should start a YouTube channel. You can
Speaker 1: call yourself the Korean Vegan. And that was like I
Speaker 1: was like, actually, that's that's that's not bad idea. And
Speaker 1: I started a YouTube channel that night called The Korean
Speaker 1: Vegan and it just stuck, So Joanne, at that time,
Speaker 1: you were a practicing, full time attorney, and what with
Speaker 1: that journey like to go from being an attorney to
Speaker 1: then suddenly saying, Okay, I'm gonna start a YouTube channel.
Speaker 1: When I started the Korean Vegan in two thousand and sixteen,
Speaker 1: I was, let's say, I had just made partner, actually,
Speaker 1: um when I decided to adopt a plant based diet.
Speaker 1: And I was just talking about this to my husband
Speaker 1: the other day, And I'm sure both of you can relate,
Speaker 1: because I know you have had incredible milestones in your
Speaker 1: own life. But one of the nice things about being
Speaker 1: a lawyer and going to law school was all of
Speaker 1: the finish lines are set for you. They're they're all there.
Speaker 1: You know, really need to set them for yourselves. You
Speaker 1: don't need to create any of your own goals because oh,
Speaker 1: graduate from law school, past the bar, example, get into
Speaker 1: a big law firm you know, makes it your counsel,
Speaker 1: make partner. It's all there for you. But when I
Speaker 1: made partner, all of a sudden, I was like, I
Speaker 1: have no goals. I've made all of the goals, I've
Speaker 1: checked all of the boxes on this list, and now
Speaker 1: I have to come up with my own. It was
Speaker 1: incredibly intimidating. It was a little frightening, and for a
Speaker 1: couple of years I felt very lost. And I'm really
Speaker 1: glad that I had something like the Korean Vegan, which
Speaker 1: was sort of my side hobby. I don't even call
Speaker 1: it a hustle because it didn't make any money. I
Speaker 1: lost lots and lots and lots of money with this hustle,
Speaker 1: if you will, But it was something nice to have
Speaker 1: that made me feel a little grounded. But it also
Speaker 1: made me feel very human, like I was like, all right,
Speaker 1: I'm not just this robot inside of this machine. I
Speaker 1: have a human hobby and I really like doing it.
Speaker 1: How soon after that did you set goals are around
Speaker 1: the hobby. I had no goals around the hobby for
Speaker 1: many years. Again, a goal was delivered to me in
Speaker 1: two thousand eighteen. Somebody saw my Instagram accounts put me
Speaker 1: in touch with a lit agent, who then put me
Speaker 1: in touch with a big time publisher and they're like, okay,
Speaker 1: we would like for you to write a cookbook. You
Speaker 1: have this many months to do it. So again, you know,
Speaker 1: the goal was placed in front of me. It wasn't
Speaker 1: one that I created on my own, and part of
Speaker 1: that was because I didn't need the pressure. I just
Speaker 1: was like, hey, I'm a partner, I'm a new partner,
Speaker 1: and that's a lot of work in and of itself.
Speaker 1: I want to develop a practice, I want to have
Speaker 1: my own book of clients. I want to be successful
Speaker 1: at what I'm doing in this career. I don't need
Speaker 1: more pressure to create more goals in a side hobby
Speaker 1: to the extent that one was created for me with
Speaker 1: the book deal. How exciting was that it was really
Speaker 1: really fun and exciting, But again I had very little
Speaker 1: ambition with regard to the book. I was like, I
Speaker 1: will be happy to see it in print, and if
Speaker 1: you know, seven people buy it, that will make me
Speaker 1: very happy. At what point did this not become a
Speaker 1: hobby and there become goals an ambition shifted over to
Speaker 1: this the current life that I have, this reality. It
Speaker 1: was not something that I dreamed like. I could not
Speaker 1: have even imagined this when I signed my book deal
Speaker 1: in two thousand eighteen. I think that this shift occurred
Speaker 1: probably in when I started posting on TikTok. I started
Speaker 1: posting on TikTok for the same reason that everybody else
Speaker 1: either joined TikTok or started posting themselves. It was because
Speaker 1: of the pandemic, quarantine, everything that was happening in the
Speaker 1: world with George Floyd, it was just like too overwhelming,
Speaker 1: and so I went on to TikTok because I needed
Speaker 1: a little bit of distraction and something to take my
Speaker 1: mind off of an immense amount of anxiety surrounding everything
Speaker 1: that was happening in the world and in my own
Speaker 1: life personally and professionally. And then, you know, it's hard
Speaker 1: not to be inspired by the you know jen z
Speaker 1: z z z z that you call them. They're very inspiring.
Speaker 1: And I was like, you know what, I do have
Speaker 1: a cookbook coming out and you know, less than a year.
Speaker 1: I'll bet my editor and publisher would really appreciate it.
Speaker 1: If I, you know, built out this TikTok, you know,
Speaker 1: maybe I could have like another ten thousand followers to
Speaker 1: add to my Instagram, which had seventy thousand followers at
Speaker 1: the time. And so that's what I did, and before
Speaker 1: I knew it, I had viral videos like a lot
Speaker 1: of them, um and I had probably close to a
Speaker 1: million followers in just a few months. And it was
Speaker 1: then that I decided, all right, like I actually could
Speaker 1: do something with this, not just like you know, at
Speaker 1: the time, I wasn't thinking career, but at the very
Speaker 1: least I was hoping that it would help with book sales.
Speaker 1: And I think fast forward probably about six months after
Speaker 1: the end of was when I decided, all right, I'm
Speaker 1: gonna go for the New York Times bestseller list. It
Speaker 1: was only then, like a few months before my book
Speaker 1: came out, that we made it a real priority. And
Speaker 1: what did that look like? Well, I think that it
Speaker 1: looked ugly. I'll be very honest with you, Seam. I mean,
Speaker 1: because and Sam, you you have experience with you know,
Speaker 1: getting on best seller lists and stuff like that. So
Speaker 1: much of it is you know, not transparent, and you know,
Speaker 1: really really competitive. You've got to know what other books
Speaker 1: are coming out at that time, you know, in your category,
Speaker 1: and you know, there's no real formula to it. There's
Speaker 1: some some formula like okay, make sure you sell a
Speaker 1: lot of books, obviously, but honestly, from an internal and
Speaker 1: personal perspective, it was ugly because I approached this goal
Speaker 1: the same way I approached everything else that I had
Speaker 1: in my legal career. Was like I've got to knock
Speaker 1: it out of the park, and I've got to do it, like,
Speaker 1: you know, months before it's due that that's my personality.
Speaker 1: If somebody sets a goal for me, I want to
Speaker 1: make sure that by the time the deadline arise, I'm like,
Speaker 1: well passed, you know, whatever is expected of me, because
Speaker 1: I hate being short on anything. But as you know,
Speaker 1: there's no way to gauge whether you're going to make
Speaker 1: it before the deadline, if you will, and so a
Speaker 1: lot of it was just intense anxiety, um, doing everything
Speaker 1: I possibly can to sell as many pre orders as
Speaker 1: I could, you know, getting frustrated by the numbers I
Speaker 1: was getting from my sales team like that's not enough.
Speaker 1: We need to be double that right now, and things
Speaker 1: like that. Um. But at the end, you know, when
Speaker 1: my publisher they set up this like surprise zoom meeting
Speaker 1: with my husband while I was in the middle of
Speaker 1: like podcasts and things like that, and you know, they
Speaker 1: broke the news to me and it was just it
Speaker 1: was amazing. I mean I started bawling on the spot.
Speaker 1: What his role as your husband played. It sounds like
Speaker 1: he's been quite an inspiration for your career since since
Speaker 1: he had the title boyfriend. My husband is an artist.
Speaker 1: He's a concert pianist. So he has never had a job,
Speaker 1: I think, other than a brief stint as a valet
Speaker 1: for a hotel or something like that where he's worked
Speaker 1: for Yeah, Like, he's never worked at anything other than
Speaker 1: his craft and his passion, which is music. And so
Speaker 1: his mindset is so different from mine. He's not opposed
Speaker 1: to taking some pretty serious risks in his career. He
Speaker 1: hates the idea of working for anyone other than himself.
Speaker 1: And the other thing that I admire so much about
Speaker 1: him is he doesn't need a bajillion dollars. He doesn't
Speaker 1: need to be rich and famous. He just wants to
Speaker 1: live a comfortable life that allows him to travel, eat
Speaker 1: the food that he likes to eat, be with the
Speaker 1: people he loves, while doing the kind of work that
Speaker 1: makes him happy and fulfilled. And that mindset was so
Speaker 1: different from the classic child of immigrants mindset that I had,
Speaker 1: which is like, no, you like scarcity mentality, You must,
Speaker 1: you know, hoard all the money's and like, you know,
Speaker 1: do all the hard work and you know all that stuff,
Speaker 1: and this idea of well why not just you know,
Speaker 1: live comfortably and like not, you know, kill yourself and
Speaker 1: do what you love. It was just really nice to
Speaker 1: be with somebody who not only encouraged that in me,
Speaker 1: but displayed that demonstrated that every single day of his
Speaker 1: own life. And I think that more than any conversation
Speaker 1: that we had or any you know, piece of advice
Speaker 1: that he would give, just watching how he lived his
Speaker 1: life so fulfilled every day was the biggest motivator for
Speaker 1: me to finally take that risk and make the jump
Speaker 1: from being a full time lawyer to being a full
Speaker 1: time content creator and writer. Your first marriage wasn't like this,
Speaker 1: It definitely was not like that. If you had stayed
Speaker 1: in that marriage, would you have become the Korean vegan?
Speaker 1: There's so many reasons why, I mean, the most obvious
Speaker 1: of which is I don't think that I would have
Speaker 1: ever gone vegan um or if I had, it would
Speaker 1: have been much later in my life, and I'm not
Speaker 1: sure if I would have had the energy at that
Speaker 1: point to do aside hustle um. So definitely not. I also,
Speaker 1: financially speaking, wouldn't have had the ability to fund a
Speaker 1: hobby like the one that I had. I was like
Speaker 1: the total breadwinner in in my original relationship, and so
Speaker 1: it wasn't a situation where I would have had any
Speaker 1: latitude or flexibility. I would have been incredibly focused on
Speaker 1: continuing to maintain financial stability in our situation. And also
Speaker 1: I wouldn't have had the emotional bandwidth to do it.
Speaker 1: I just wouldn't. I couldn't even watch sad movies like
Speaker 1: that was the thing. That's when I knew, like, something
Speaker 1: is very strange in this relationship. I can't even watch
Speaker 1: emotional movies because they were so draining and so exhausting
Speaker 1: for me. I had like zero emotional bandwidth to to
Speaker 1: do anything other than hold my marriage together, and that
Speaker 1: was so taxing to me. I would never have had
Speaker 1: anything left to share with anyone else. How did you leave?
Speaker 1: I think sometimes the hardest part about leaving is knowing
Speaker 1: that you have to do it. That was the hardest
Speaker 1: part for me. I was like, I love my husband,
Speaker 1: I love him, Why the heck would I leave him?
Speaker 1: Like you don't leave somebody that you love, and I
Speaker 1: really loved him. And it wasn't until I think that
Speaker 1: I felt there was a line that was crossed in
Speaker 1: my own head where I was like, all right, now, like,
Speaker 1: I really can't deny that the situation is not healthy
Speaker 1: for either of us, and I wish that that line
Speaker 1: had been much closer. But it took a lot for
Speaker 1: me to say, all right, like I can't, I can't
Speaker 1: pretend anymore like this is this is really wrong for
Speaker 1: both of us, but particularly for me. And once that
Speaker 1: line was crossed in some ways, it became a little
Speaker 1: bit easier for me to just say, all right, I
Speaker 1: have to now start taking steps to exit this relationship.
Speaker 1: It wasn't overnight. I wish that I could say that
Speaker 1: it was. But even after that line was crossed, I
Speaker 1: was like, no, maybe we can make it work, like
Speaker 1: with counseling and things like that, and I think seeing
Speaker 1: a therapist. I did start seeing a marriage therapist by myself.
Speaker 1: She was the one who was like, I will tell
Speaker 1: you right now that this relationship is irretrievably broken. There's
Speaker 1: nothing you can do to fix it. You just need
Speaker 1: to start taking steps to leave. I came up with
Speaker 1: an Excel spreadsheet that had multiple tabs and timelines and
Speaker 1: goals and like within yes was within three months, you
Speaker 1: will do this. Within six months, you will have done this,
Speaker 1: and you know so like that was really helpful to
Speaker 1: me to like put it down on paper. It became
Speaker 1: very real once I saw that. And then once it
Speaker 1: became real, the goal, the goal oriented Joanne, you know,
Speaker 1: kicked into overdrive. I was like, well, if this is
Speaker 1: for three months and I'm going to do it in
Speaker 1: two months, If this is scheduled for six months, I'm
Speaker 1: gonna do it in four months. And I gave myself
Speaker 1: a year to exit the relationship, but I think I
Speaker 1: ultimately did it in like six to seven months. And
Speaker 1: what did your parents think? So I remember, this is
Speaker 1: like a painful but also powerful memory. The day that
Speaker 1: the night actually was like three in the morning that
Speaker 1: things sort of crossed into a point of no return.
Speaker 1: I remember I picked up my dog, my Daisy Girl
Speaker 1: at the time, and I ran out of my house.
Speaker 1: I was barefoot, I was in my pajamas, and I
Speaker 1: was horrified by everything that had happened. And you know,
Speaker 1: my my intent was just to get to my parents house,
Speaker 1: who luckily lived in the same town house complexes I did.
Speaker 1: And I was so nervous, even in my own heart,
Speaker 1: to show up at their doorstep at three in the
Speaker 1: morning with you know, no shoes, on and just my dog,
Speaker 1: because I didn't want them to be frightened or nervous
Speaker 1: for me. But I also knew that I couldn't stay
Speaker 1: in my house under the circumstances. So I ran there
Speaker 1: and I show up and you know, of course my
Speaker 1: parents were sleeping. But my mom opens the door. And
Speaker 1: this is not a new thing for my mom. I
Speaker 1: had done it so many times, so immediately she knew
Speaker 1: what was going on, and so she said, come on in.
Speaker 1: And I was crying and hysterical and and I kept
Speaker 1: saying I need to get a divorce. I need to
Speaker 1: get a divorce. I can't do this. And she asked
Speaker 1: me what happened, and I told her and and she said, yeah,
Speaker 1: you need to get a divorce. And I remember this
Speaker 1: so clearly because my mother she doesn't get angry at him.
Speaker 1: She often gets angry at me for staying and always
Speaker 1: going back. But I remember what she said that time.
Speaker 1: And she said in Korean later on that night, if
Speaker 1: he shows his face in front of me, I'm going
Speaker 1: to beat the ship out of him. And that was
Speaker 1: very telling for me because it showed me that my
Speaker 1: mom was in a lot of pain over what was happening,
Speaker 1: but she was also very much in my side. She
Speaker 1: really took my side, and that was so important because
Speaker 1: Asian parents, they don't always take your side. If you're
Speaker 1: talking about divorce, that is not a thing that they're
Speaker 1: really cool with. And I was very lucky that my
Speaker 1: mom and even my dad were very supportive of me
Speaker 1: leaving that marriage and starting a new life. You're really
Speaker 1: open in your videos. Have you always been this open?
Speaker 1: I think my personality is definitely more open than not.
Speaker 1: I like talking to people a one on one. I'm
Speaker 1: not good in crowds, as I'm sure you saw Amy,
Speaker 1: I'm not good in crowds. I'm not good in large groups.
Speaker 1: I'm very intensely shy in those settings. But when you
Speaker 1: sit me down with one person, I love listening to people.
Speaker 1: I like hearing them tell their stories. I like hearing
Speaker 1: them tell me about, well, what did you do today,
Speaker 1: what do you think is interesting? What is the struggle
Speaker 1: of your heart right now? And I think the best
Speaker 1: way to elicit that kind of information from a person
Speaker 1: is sharing your own story, disarming them by disarming yourself,
Speaker 1: saying hey, you can be vulnerable with me, and I'll
Speaker 1: show you how I'll be vulnerable with you first, So
Speaker 1: that is sort of my personality only because I think
Speaker 1: that I really enjoy connecting on a deep level with people.
Speaker 1: That said, I have also learned, particularly over the past year,
Speaker 1: how taxing it can be on me emotionally and mentally
Speaker 1: to always lay myself bare and also make myself susceptible
Speaker 1: to criticism and gaslightinging and people who are just like, oh,
Speaker 1: she's open, let's go attack her. I get that a
Speaker 1: lot as well, So I think right now it's sort
Speaker 1: of a lesson in trying to balance my vulnerability with
Speaker 1: my own kind of mental health. And now a quick break,
Speaker 1: What was your childhood? Like? Well, my childhood is really
Speaker 1: safe and wonderful. I was just thinking about that today,
Speaker 1: like how lucky I am um to have my parents
Speaker 1: be such lovely and wonderful people. I know not all
Speaker 1: parents are that, you know, like that I just lucked
Speaker 1: out and had really wonderful, loving, safe environment. I was
Speaker 1: just thinking today how much I missed my mom and
Speaker 1: dad because I'm in California and they live in Chicago.
Speaker 1: I was just there a couple of days ago for
Speaker 1: an event and just sitting in my mother's sunlit dining
Speaker 1: room and eating peeping pop with my mom and my
Speaker 1: dad is just such an incredibly safe space for me.
Speaker 1: And I was like, the only reason it's safe for
Speaker 1: me today is because they made it safe for me
Speaker 1: back when I was three, four or five, six, eight
Speaker 1: years old, So it's a very safe environment. I had
Speaker 1: both my grandmother's, my maternal and paternal grandmother in my
Speaker 1: life very much. My paternal grandmother basically raised me between
Speaker 1: the age of three and fourteen years old, and just
Speaker 1: having her there and constantly guarding and protecting me was
Speaker 1: really beautiful. But I think, like many immigrant children, because
Speaker 1: my parents, you know, didn't speak English as well as
Speaker 1: I did. My grandmother didn't speak any English at all.
Speaker 1: Because of the adults in my life were not as
Speaker 1: equipped to operate on the level that I saw on
Speaker 1: television that I saw with my friends parents, I did
Speaker 1: feel at times a little bit burdened to be an adult,
Speaker 1: even when I was only eight or nine years old.
Speaker 1: I had to do the things that other you know
Speaker 1: kids parents did, like you know, read out loud the
Speaker 1: permission slip and translated for them, or type up letters
Speaker 1: from my father, or you know, get on the phone
Speaker 1: with customer service and and handle things that I don't
Speaker 1: know that many eight or nine year olds were doing,
Speaker 1: um other than if their parents couldn't speak the language
Speaker 1: as well. So there was a little bit of that,
Speaker 1: and you know, but honestly, in retrospect, especially given what
Speaker 1: children have to go through today, I had a wonderfully
Speaker 1: safe and beautiful childhood. You have a video that kind
Speaker 1: of talks a little bit about what you're talking about
Speaker 1: right now and really goes into what's happening in the
Speaker 1: A A p I community in America right now, where
Speaker 1: we're seeing instances of hate crimes and violence, which I'm
Speaker 1: sure we've always seen. You've become a voice in this community.
Speaker 1: Did you do that intentionally? I think that I have
Speaker 1: always been passionate about the eradication of racism. That's something
Speaker 1: that has always been important to me. And somebody was
Speaker 1: asking me, like, how do you find your passion? And
Speaker 1: I'm like, well, for some of us, you just find
Speaker 1: what makes really really mad and the opposite is your passion.
Speaker 1: And that's how I, you know, that's how I became
Speaker 1: passionate about abdicating on behalf of you know, UM, anti racism. Basically,
Speaker 1: I just I just wish that there was no racism
Speaker 1: in the world. That is my heart's desire, and so
Speaker 1: on that side. It was just very natural for me
Speaker 1: to tell stories with that in mind. I mean, that's
Speaker 1: why I tell the stories about immigrant families. To the
Speaker 1: extent that there are people out there who don't know
Speaker 1: too much about what it's like being an immigrant family
Speaker 1: in the United States, or may have less experience with it.
Speaker 1: All I wanted to do was open them up to
Speaker 1: thinking about, oh, well, things might be a little bit different.
Speaker 1: Let me maybe explain to you how what I didn't
Speaker 1: do on purpose and what I didn't expect was sort
Speaker 1: of this avalanche of members of that community, um, you know,
Speaker 1: children of immigrants or immigrants themselves reaching out to me
Speaker 1: and saying, oh my god, I find only feel like
Speaker 1: somebody's telling my story. I finally feel like somebody sees me,
Speaker 1: and I'm so grateful for that. I didn't expect that.
Speaker 1: That was not why I started doing what I did.
Speaker 1: It's not why I started speaking out. It was very
Speaker 1: new to me, and that was really important because they
Speaker 1: think it helped me to focus a little bit more
Speaker 1: about what my messaging needs to be. It helped me
Speaker 1: to be more sensitive and careful about that new responsibility,
Speaker 1: which is I want to make sure that everyone feels
Speaker 1: included and safe in this space. And part of that
Speaker 1: means that these people feel seen and heard. And so
Speaker 1: it's not something that I did intentionally or by design,
Speaker 1: but it's something that I take very very seriously. Now,
Speaker 1: how is your life organized? I think that a lot
Speaker 1: of our listeners who hear this, who might be in
Speaker 1: more traditional careers, can't even fathom when it's like to
Speaker 1: wake up every day without someone else creating that agenda.
Speaker 1: And you have been on both sides, So how do
Speaker 1: you organize your day, your week? I'm, you know, still
Speaker 1: relatively new to this rather structuralist world, and it can
Speaker 1: be daunting. Like at first, it's like, wow, this is
Speaker 1: so great, I got to wake up and you know,
Speaker 1: just do you do videos all day? How nice is that?
Speaker 1: You know? But like when you don't have a strategy
Speaker 1: and when you don't have a goal in mind, it
Speaker 1: becomes a little bit um anxiety inducing, at least for me,
Speaker 1: because I was like, well, what is the purpose of
Speaker 1: these things that I'm doing? Is it just to get
Speaker 1: a million views? Like that can't be right, Like that
Speaker 1: that's not the goal here, right, so we think that
Speaker 1: earlier in the year, what I did is I sat
Speaker 1: down and I put together a very rudimentary business plan
Speaker 1: with a lot of milestones in it, like, hey, I
Speaker 1: want to grow my YouTube account to this much, I
Speaker 1: want to start a product line here. I want to
Speaker 1: really work on you know, you know, videos in Korean
Speaker 1: for the South Korean um, you know, folks, I want
Speaker 1: to do a podcast like these are things that I
Speaker 1: kind of wrote down and then, you know, just like
Speaker 1: with the spreadsheet for divorcing my ex husband, it was
Speaker 1: pretty similar, Like I had multiple tabs and timelines and
Speaker 1: miniature sub goals and things like that. Every day waking
Speaker 1: up in the beginning, like I said, was a little
Speaker 1: direction list. But now what I do is I sit
Speaker 1: down every week and it's a calendar appointment in my
Speaker 1: calendar on Wednesday afternoon, and I map out the rest
Speaker 1: of the week. What am I doing tomorrow, what am
Speaker 1: I doing the day after, What are the videos that
Speaker 1: I want to get posted, um, what are the times
Speaker 1: that I'm doing interviews or pr and things like that.
Speaker 1: I think that really helps me and putting them in
Speaker 1: my calendar, not just like putting them on some you know,
Speaker 1: notebooks somewhere. I need it in my calendar so that
Speaker 1: when I'm scheduling sort of one off things like a
Speaker 1: podcast or an interview or a trip, I know that
Speaker 1: I have to build around some of these other things
Speaker 1: that I'm doing. Otherwise like they won't get done and
Speaker 1: it'll throw me off, and then once again I'm stuck
Speaker 1: sitting there being like I feel totally directionless and unproductive.
Speaker 1: Take us back, you decide to launch a TikTok channel.
Speaker 1: I think for many of us it sounds like so idealistic, right,
Speaker 1: You start a TikTok channel and then it goes viral
Speaker 1: and you have millions of people watching you very quickly.
Speaker 1: How did that happen? I mean, did you study the
Speaker 1: algorithm or was it truly just fortune? In some way?
Speaker 1: It was totally luck. I really wish that, I like,
Speaker 1: because I know, like the you know, we all want
Speaker 1: to reverse engineer these types of situations because that helps
Speaker 1: to reduce some of the anxiety that attends trying something new.
Speaker 1: But honestly, I had no intention of going viral. In fact,
Speaker 1: my first viral video I deleted it because it scared
Speaker 1: me so much. I deleted it because I was so
Speaker 1: frightened I would can fire um. So like it was
Speaker 1: like totally accidental. I mean, I had no idea how
Speaker 1: to use TikTok. I was just like, all right, I'll
Speaker 1: just throw my phone up on the wall and I'll
Speaker 1: just do this and see what happens. And so there
Speaker 1: isn't any rhyme or reason to it. I actually was
Speaker 1: talking to somebody who hosts a really popular food podcast,
Speaker 1: and he just invited all these viral TikTok ers to
Speaker 1: give him pointers on creating a viral TikTok, and I
Speaker 1: was like, there's just no formula for it. Like if
Speaker 1: you try too hard, actually that will probably mean that
Speaker 1: you're not going to go viral. Because these kids, they're
Speaker 1: so smart they can tell when you're trying too hard.
Speaker 1: And I feel like there's a little bit of that
Speaker 1: to what's happening here. So it's it's by accident most
Speaker 1: of the time. I will say, some people believe that
Speaker 1: TikTok tries to reel you into creating content, so they
Speaker 1: might reward you with an early viral video like your
Speaker 1: first you know, ten videos or something like that to
Speaker 1: make you addicted to posting because then you're like, oh,
Speaker 1: I need to get another one, and I don't know
Speaker 1: if that's true. It was true in my situation. I
Speaker 1: had only been posting for like a week before I
Speaker 1: had my first viral video. How is the production value
Speaker 1: changed from that first video to now? It's completely different,
Speaker 1: And you can go and look at some of my
Speaker 1: earlier videos. Obviously I was just using my phone, which
Speaker 1: wasn't even like a really good phone at that time,
Speaker 1: and I was, you know, not really capitalizing on any
Speaker 1: of the nice little tools that you have on TikTok
Speaker 1: to make it really pretty and sound nice. Now you know,
Speaker 1: I have a studio, I have three cameras going on
Speaker 1: at the same time. I use Final Cut for my editing.
Speaker 1: I use this really nice microphone for my voiceovers. I
Speaker 1: spend quite a bit of time writing the stories that
Speaker 1: go along with my videos. So it can be a process.
Speaker 1: It can take anywhere from I would say, like six
Speaker 1: to twelve hours to create one sixty second video. And
Speaker 1: how many times a week do you post? So right
Speaker 1: now I'm trying to get back into the groove of
Speaker 1: posting about three to five times a week. For a while,
Speaker 1: it was like I was lucky if I was posting
Speaker 1: once a week, and that was because I you know,
Speaker 1: it was relocating from Chicago to California and it was
Speaker 1: a little bit hard to get everything like where it
Speaker 1: needed to be. But right now I'm hopeful to get
Speaker 1: back into that groove and you know, create predictability with
Speaker 1: my community there so they know that they can count on,
Speaker 1: you know, steady stream of content from the Korean beacon.
Speaker 1: When you say three to five videos a week, is
Speaker 1: it YouTube or TikTok or what are we talking about?
Speaker 1: How does that divide itself? Well, I I post on
Speaker 1: all of the platform so I'm pretty active on I
Speaker 1: would say four social media platforms TikTok, YouTube, Instagram, and Twitter.
Speaker 1: I do customize my content it for each of those platforms,
Speaker 1: Like I don't post a lot of video content on
Speaker 1: Twitter mostly it's just like my personal thoughts are thinking.
Speaker 1: You know how, Twitter is a little different from the
Speaker 1: other three. The other three, though, are all very conducive
Speaker 1: to short content, you know, short digital content which is
Speaker 1: anything less than sixty seconds. So I'll often post on
Speaker 1: TikTok first, and then I'll go to YouTube, and then
Speaker 1: I'll go to Instagram, Instagram is its own little thing.
Speaker 1: I feel like Instagram is my middle child. I always
Speaker 1: liken these two my children, but I feel like Instagram
Speaker 1: is very much like middle child. They need a little
Speaker 1: bit more attention from me, and they're used to it
Speaker 1: because I've been on that platform the longest. And you
Speaker 1: get the caption where you can write pretty significantly, and
Speaker 1: you get the Instagram stories. So it takes a little
Speaker 1: bit more work on Instagram. But basically, I make one
Speaker 1: sixty second video and I repurpose it for all those
Speaker 1: three platforms, sometimes also Twitter and now a quick break.
Speaker 1: What will your career look like in ten years? I
Speaker 1: don't know. It could go one of two ways, I
Speaker 1: would say, And and in this I'm being totally honest
Speaker 1: and completely candid, Like there's like a part of me
Speaker 1: that's like I want to be the CEO and mogul
Speaker 1: of like a digital multimedia enterprise, you know, And I
Speaker 1: feel like there's a part of me that could do that. Um.
Speaker 1: You know, certainly we're growing our YouTube and our other
Speaker 1: digital platforms, and that's certainly part of that strategy. On
Speaker 1: the other hand, I go back to what I said
Speaker 1: about my husband. One of the things that I found
Speaker 1: so attractive about him is that he was like, Hey,
Speaker 1: I just want to do something that I love. I
Speaker 1: want to do it well every single day. I want
Speaker 1: to challenge myself to be the best at it as
Speaker 1: I possibly can. But that doesn't mean that I need
Speaker 1: to be making a million dollars or becoming famous. I'm
Speaker 1: okay if I make just enough money to go to
Speaker 1: Rome every summer and eat the best pasta. And there's
Speaker 1: something to that that's very alluring. I would not mind
Speaker 1: if in ten years you found me in a small,
Speaker 1: beautiful home in Sardinia, you know, eating chick peas and
Speaker 1: fresh greens every day, running in the morning, and writing
Speaker 1: my next book. I think that's also kind of lovely.
Speaker 1: And do you want to go to the speed round now, Joanne?
Speaker 1: Who leaves you star struck? Oh? God, Padma Lakshmi, for sure?
Speaker 1: What are you reading right now? I literally just finished
Speaker 1: We Were Dreamers, which is the memoir by cemu You,
Speaker 1: which I enjoyed so thoroughly. I haven't picked up my
Speaker 1: next book though. What is your morning routine? My morning
Speaker 1: routine right now is I get out of bed, I
Speaker 1: carry my dog downstairs because we sleep on the second floor,
Speaker 1: and he's very arthritic and he can't go down the
Speaker 1: stairs anymore. Take him outside, UM, give him his medication,
Speaker 1: beg him to take his medication more like hey, um.
Speaker 1: And then my husband and I go to our favorite
Speaker 1: local restaurant here and we share breakfast. Usually we just
Speaker 1: share a bagel sandwich together and then come home and
Speaker 1: we start the day. I haven't been working out the
Speaker 1: past month. I've got marathon this fall and training starts
Speaker 1: in July, so I've been like taking it super easy
Speaker 1: before I start training. What are you and your husband
Speaker 1: eating for dinner tonight? Okay, So I made this amazing
Speaker 1: cast role yesterday. I love cast roles. I think that
Speaker 1: is directly a product of the fact that we ate
Speaker 1: Korean food all the time growing up, and I always
Speaker 1: was so fascinated by the American cast role. I love
Speaker 1: cast role, and I made this cast role yesterday with
Speaker 1: my vegan version of cream of mushroom with pasta and
Speaker 1: potatoes and um bread crumbs, and it is just so delicious.
Speaker 1: I added some artichokes to it too. It's so amazing.
Speaker 1: It came out perfectly. So we're going to eat that.
Speaker 1: I have some leftover green beans that I haven't cooked
Speaker 1: up yet, so we'll just do a quick saute with
Speaker 1: a little bit of vegan butter and extra vision olive
Speaker 1: oil and some garlic. It's what we had for dinner
Speaker 1: yesterday and it was so good it it deserves an encore.
Speaker 1: So lu Burns has been listening to the interview and
Speaker 1: he joins us with the male perspective. And I don't
Speaker 1: want to call his final question a singer, but sometimes
Speaker 1: it is to hear that you deleted your first viral,
Speaker 1: Like I would go nuts if it was me, Like
Speaker 1: I got something that everybody likes you, but you were
Speaker 1: you were afraid to lose your job and that like, wow,
Speaker 1: that was a lot. Huh. It was really scary. Yeah,
Speaker 1: why so? So, contrary to what many people probably think,
Speaker 1: my first viral video didn't have anything to do with food.
Speaker 1: It was not a food video. It was me being
Speaker 1: a lawyer. I had posted sort of a you know,
Speaker 1: fun day in the life video of a lawyer in
Speaker 1: Chicago under quarantine, and it really was taking people through
Speaker 1: the day, just like you guys were asking about like
Speaker 1: what is your day, like you know, first part lawyer,
Speaker 1: second part content creator. And that's really what I wanted
Speaker 1: to show people that you could do both, and a
Speaker 1: woman lawyer commented, it looks like you don't work very hard,
Speaker 1: and it was so enraging. She was just very I
Speaker 1: don't know why they had to say that to me,
Speaker 1: and it was so disheartening to find out that she
Speaker 1: was a fellow female lawyer. And I was like, you know,
Speaker 1: like all the kids, I was like, I'm going to
Speaker 1: clap back at this, and so that's what I did.
Speaker 1: I clapped back, if you will, at this comment, and
Speaker 1: that went viral. I basically said, here's you know, seventy
Speaker 1: reasons why I think you're wrong. And oh, by the way, like,
Speaker 1: why are you promoting this sort of toxic productivity? Like
Speaker 1: do I need to be like killing myself like in
Speaker 1: order to meet your approval? Is that what it takes
Speaker 1: to be a successful woman at a large law firm
Speaker 1: is to basically work myself out of existence and not
Speaker 1: be happy and not have any side hustles, not have
Speaker 1: any hobbies, just focus on work. Is that what I'm
Speaker 1: supposed to do? I wanted to provide a balanced video
Speaker 1: on my life, and I worked very hard. At the time.
Speaker 1: I was working super hard. I was actually I think
Speaker 1: I had just come off a trial or was preparing
Speaker 1: for trial, so you know, like it was insane. And
Speaker 1: so I put all of this in the video and
Speaker 1: it went viral and the next day I got a
Speaker 1: call from my UM CEO and he was like, what
Speaker 1: is this TikTok that you're doing? You know, he was like,
Speaker 1: I don't know what it is. And you know, I
Speaker 1: just think that maybe it's a little condescending your tone
Speaker 1: and blah blah blah. And I was like, all right,
Speaker 1: you know what I'm I'm deleting it. Don't worry. I
Speaker 1: will never do this again. Um. It really frightened me.
Speaker 1: I remember I got on the phone with my mentor.
Speaker 1: You know, everyone has a mentor. Even as a partner,
Speaker 1: I still think of her as a mentor. And I
Speaker 1: was like, Ellen, oh my god, I have thirty five
Speaker 1: thousand followers on TikTok and and this. You know, there
Speaker 1: was like all these news articles about the lawyer who
Speaker 1: clapped back on TikTok and stuff like that. I was like,
Speaker 1: I can't do this, and you know, CEO called me
Speaker 1: and blah blah blah, and I was like, I'm gonna
Speaker 1: lose my job and I almost started to cry. But
Speaker 1: you know, lou, my husband was so mad that I
Speaker 1: deleted it. He was like, why would you do this?
Speaker 1: You should be so happy, like they should be happy.
Speaker 1: You know, you're bringing so much attention and this is
Speaker 1: a totally backwards way for you to deal with this.
Speaker 1: And I was like, no, no, babe. I can't even
Speaker 1: go to sleep at night. I don't really eat it.
Speaker 1: But you know, like obviously, like you know, we all
Speaker 1: got over it. My firm got over it, my firm's
Speaker 1: management got over it. I got on the phone with
Speaker 1: a firm PR team and we got to an understanding.
Speaker 1: I create quite a bit of political content that sometimes
Speaker 1: has nothing to do with food, and they're okay with
Speaker 1: it as long as I'm very clear that this is
Speaker 1: my opinion and mine alone. Joanne's story is so interesting
Speaker 1: on so many different levels. Amy, I love her. She's awesome.
Speaker 1: I'm really so into her. But here's the thing, Okay,
Speaker 1: this is what stood out to me most about her story.
Speaker 1: I don't know why. It's going to make me cry
Speaker 1: again just talking about it. It made me because you know,
Speaker 1: you're the one he usually cries in the interview. In
Speaker 1: real life, I cry more than you, but under interviews
Speaker 1: you cry more than I do. And for some reason
Speaker 1: this is making me cry. Good. Look, I think the
Speaker 1: part where she talked about how her now husband was
Speaker 1: a role model because he chose something he loved to
Speaker 1: do and the way he lives his life is so
Speaker 1: beautiful to me, the way he lives his life to
Speaker 1: eat the food he wants, to spend time with the
Speaker 1: people he wants, and live in a place that's comfortable
Speaker 1: for him, Like that should be the goal for everyone, right,
Speaker 1: So how many people would be able to pick up
Speaker 1: and just pursue their passion if they had that freedom,
Speaker 1: And it seems like he was like a role model
Speaker 1: for freedom more than even what he said, just the
Speaker 1: way he lived his life lives. I mean, I agree
Speaker 1: with you. I have the child not crying, but it
Speaker 1: did give me the chills because it was this. Sometimes
Speaker 1: we see what's with such simple clarity, what it is
Speaker 1: meant to be, because it can get it life, all
Speaker 1: of it can get so lost in the hustle. And
Speaker 1: I need this, I need that. I want this right
Speaker 1: when it can and should be so close to the
Speaker 1: heart of what what do you need? And what do
Speaker 1: you really need? And what makes you happy because you joy?
Speaker 1: And I think that, like do I reoriented her life
Speaker 1: around that idea, and I think it's so interesting that
Speaker 1: like another person can open up your entire world to
Speaker 1: how you view things. I mean, it's really beautiful what
Speaker 1: she has found in her husband and their story together
Speaker 1: and how he encourages her. When we think of a
Speaker 1: spouse encouraging you, you don't typically think of encouraging you
Speaker 1: because they represent freedom, right you. We think of it
Speaker 1: as like someone who's your biggest cheerleader, or someone who
Speaker 1: is financially sporting you, or someone who's you know, doing
Speaker 1: some of the work at home so you can go
Speaker 1: try vel or whatever it is. But this is almost
Speaker 1: a new definition of a supportive spouse. Thanks for listening
Speaker 1: to What's Her Story with Sam and Amy. We would
Speaker 1: appreciate it if you leave a review wherever you get
Speaker 1: your podcasts, and of course, connect with us on social
Speaker 1: media at What's Her Story podcast. What's Her Story with
Speaker 1: Sam and Amy is powered by my company, The Riveter
Speaker 1: at The Riveter dot c O and Sam's company, park
Speaker 1: Place Payments at park place payments dot com. Thanks to
Speaker 1: our producer Stacy Parra and our male perspective, blue burns,