1 00:00:15,410 --> 00:00:22,610 Speaker 1: Pushkin. This is a follow up to our previous episode 2 00:00:22,610 --> 00:00:28,130 Speaker 1: about two disturbing yet quite different cases of mass radiation poisoning. 3 00:00:28,530 --> 00:00:31,050 Speaker 1: If you haven't listened to that episode yet, I suggest 4 00:00:31,090 --> 00:00:36,210 Speaker 1: you do. Last time, we heard about the Guyana incident, 5 00:00:36,530 --> 00:00:41,010 Speaker 1: how a highly radioactive substance was left unattended, discovered by 6 00:00:41,090 --> 00:00:44,690 Speaker 1: gray market scrap dealers, and wreaked havoc on a neighborhood 7 00:00:44,690 --> 00:00:46,850 Speaker 1: of people who had no idea what they were dealing 8 00:00:46,930 --> 00:00:49,970 Speaker 1: with and no reason that they should know. It was 9 00:00:50,010 --> 00:00:53,970 Speaker 1: a story about critical thinking, but about the brilliant, heroic 10 00:00:54,010 --> 00:00:56,610 Speaker 1: detective work of a woman who figured out the source 11 00:00:56,650 --> 00:01:00,810 Speaker 1: of the suffering, but alas didn't survive her encounter with it. 12 00:01:02,490 --> 00:01:05,570 Speaker 1: In the end, everyone pulled together to try to diagnose 13 00:01:05,730 --> 00:01:08,690 Speaker 1: and solve the problem. But we also heard about a 14 00:01:08,690 --> 00:01:12,170 Speaker 1: different case, one in which the risks of radiation poison 15 00:01:12,410 --> 00:01:16,650 Speaker 1: were known, or at least widely suspected, and people weren't 16 00:01:16,650 --> 00:01:23,290 Speaker 1: pulling together at all. Instead, powerful businessmen resorted to obfuscation, misdirection, 17 00:01:23,770 --> 00:01:28,090 Speaker 1: and outright lies, leading to the painful deaths of their employees. 18 00:01:28,570 --> 00:01:33,530 Speaker 1: And there's much much more to say about that. I'm 19 00:01:33,610 --> 00:01:36,930 Speaker 1: Tim Harford, and you're listening to a special book club 20 00:01:37,050 --> 00:02:18,730 Speaker 1: edition of Cautionary Tales. That second story, the story of 21 00:02:18,770 --> 00:02:22,570 Speaker 1: the Radium Girls, is our subject today. I am delighted 22 00:02:22,610 --> 00:02:25,610 Speaker 1: to have the opportunity to speak with Kate Moore, the 23 00:02:25,650 --> 00:02:28,610 Speaker 1: author of numerous books across a range of genres, in 24 00:02:28,690 --> 00:02:33,490 Speaker 1: particular the New York Times bestseller The Radium Girls, which 25 00:02:33,530 --> 00:02:37,850 Speaker 1: is a powerful, heartbreaking account of their experiences and their 26 00:02:37,850 --> 00:02:41,770 Speaker 1: fight for justice. Kate Moore, Welcome to caution Me Tales. 27 00:02:42,250 --> 00:02:44,770 Speaker 1: Thank you so much, Tim Well. I'm delighted that you 28 00:02:44,810 --> 00:02:48,130 Speaker 1: could join us. How did you first come across this story? 29 00:02:48,130 --> 00:02:50,050 Speaker 1: What inspired you to write the book? So? 30 00:02:50,330 --> 00:02:53,690 Speaker 2: I first discovered the story of the Radium Girls through 31 00:02:53,810 --> 00:02:58,210 Speaker 2: directing a play about them, and it really has been 32 00:02:58,370 --> 00:03:02,490 Speaker 2: just the most incredible, serendipitous journey. I found the play 33 00:03:02,730 --> 00:03:06,970 Speaker 2: through googling great plays for women, and the moment I 34 00:03:07,010 --> 00:03:10,530 Speaker 2: found the script, which was The Shining Lives by Melanie Marnich, 35 00:03:11,050 --> 00:03:14,570 Speaker 2: I fell in love with these characters. This story of 36 00:03:14,890 --> 00:03:19,610 Speaker 2: women fighting for justice, this story of heartbreak and tragedy 37 00:03:20,090 --> 00:03:24,290 Speaker 2: and yet strength and dignity and courage was just so 38 00:03:24,690 --> 00:03:27,210 Speaker 2: universal in its power, and it just connected with me 39 00:03:27,290 --> 00:03:30,330 Speaker 2: straight away, and I knew it was based on a 40 00:03:30,330 --> 00:03:33,770 Speaker 2: true story. So as I prepared for my theater production, 41 00:03:34,330 --> 00:03:36,610 Speaker 2: I did as much research as I could on the 42 00:03:36,690 --> 00:03:40,890 Speaker 2: Radium girls. I was really interested in their personal stories. 43 00:03:40,970 --> 00:03:43,330 Speaker 2: What were their weddings, like, how many siblings did the 44 00:03:43,330 --> 00:03:47,010 Speaker 2: girls have, what was personally important to them as they 45 00:03:47,010 --> 00:03:50,770 Speaker 2: went through this experience, And I could not find the 46 00:03:50,850 --> 00:03:56,570 Speaker 2: answers to my questions. I was absolutely stunned that this 47 00:03:56,930 --> 00:04:01,890 Speaker 2: incredible story that had left such a lasting legacy did 48 00:04:01,930 --> 00:04:07,050 Speaker 2: not have a book that celebrated the individual women. And 49 00:04:07,170 --> 00:04:09,730 Speaker 2: ultimately I thought, well, if no one else else has 50 00:04:09,770 --> 00:04:13,010 Speaker 2: written that book, why don't I so tell us. 51 00:04:12,970 --> 00:04:16,850 Speaker 1: About these Well, we've described them both as girls and 52 00:04:16,970 --> 00:04:22,410 Speaker 1: as women. Yeah, there were employees in two factories working 53 00:04:22,530 --> 00:04:27,690 Speaker 1: with radium because it makes numbers on watches glow, so 54 00:04:27,730 --> 00:04:30,650 Speaker 1: it's useful. Were they girls, were they women? How old 55 00:04:30,690 --> 00:04:31,050 Speaker 1: were they? 56 00:04:31,850 --> 00:04:34,410 Speaker 2: They were girls at the beginning of the story, because 57 00:04:34,410 --> 00:04:37,410 Speaker 2: it was mostly teenage girls who were employed in these 58 00:04:37,530 --> 00:04:42,530 Speaker 2: dial painting factories. Most of them were sort of thirteen, fourteen, fifteen, 59 00:04:42,770 --> 00:04:45,650 Speaker 2: sixteen years of age, but actually the record show that 60 00:04:45,730 --> 00:04:49,250 Speaker 2: some of them were as young as eleven. It was 61 00:04:49,450 --> 00:04:53,050 Speaker 2: seen as such a great job for the poor working girls, 62 00:04:53,210 --> 00:04:56,050 Speaker 2: as the sources have it. Then, actually the women who 63 00:04:56,050 --> 00:04:58,610 Speaker 2: were lucky enough to have jobs promoted it to their 64 00:04:58,650 --> 00:05:02,050 Speaker 2: friends and sisters and cousins, and you'd have high schoolers 65 00:05:02,250 --> 00:05:05,730 Speaker 2: coming and working in the summer holidays. People really wanted 66 00:05:05,850 --> 00:05:08,570 Speaker 2: to be a radium girl. It was a glamorous job, 67 00:05:09,170 --> 00:05:12,170 Speaker 2: quative job. It was an artistic job. One of my 68 00:05:12,210 --> 00:05:15,610 Speaker 2: favorite moments in my research for the book was looking 69 00:05:15,690 --> 00:05:19,690 Speaker 2: up Katherine Wolf Dunnahue in her local town directory and 70 00:05:19,730 --> 00:05:22,610 Speaker 2: it listed her name and her address and her profession 71 00:05:23,090 --> 00:05:27,850 Speaker 2: and it didn't say dial painter. It said artist radium 72 00:05:27,890 --> 00:05:28,610 Speaker 2: dial company. 73 00:05:28,810 --> 00:05:29,170 Speaker 1: Wow. 74 00:05:29,330 --> 00:05:32,890 Speaker 2: Some of the earlier studios opened sort of nineteen sixteen, 75 00:05:33,090 --> 00:05:38,210 Speaker 2: nineteen seventeen, just before the First World War really begins, 76 00:05:38,290 --> 00:05:40,610 Speaker 2: And it was the First World War that really led 77 00:05:40,610 --> 00:05:44,370 Speaker 2: to a boom in the radium dial painting industry because 78 00:05:44,370 --> 00:05:47,490 Speaker 2: the women didn't just paint watches and clocks with this 79 00:05:47,570 --> 00:05:50,610 Speaker 2: glow in the dark radium paint. They would be painting 80 00:05:50,690 --> 00:05:54,770 Speaker 2: the instruments that would light up dashboards of automobiles, of aeroplanes, 81 00:05:55,010 --> 00:05:57,450 Speaker 2: things that were really useful in the war efforts. 82 00:05:58,050 --> 00:06:03,610 Speaker 1: These women, in some cases, these girls, they're ingesting the radium. 83 00:06:03,650 --> 00:06:08,330 Speaker 1: It's dusting their clothes. It's on the paint brushes. They're 84 00:06:08,330 --> 00:06:10,810 Speaker 1: licking the paint rushes to get them to a fine point, 85 00:06:10,970 --> 00:06:13,210 Speaker 1: and their bodies are just absorbing more and more of 86 00:06:13,210 --> 00:06:16,810 Speaker 1: this stuff, which few people at the time realize is 87 00:06:16,810 --> 00:06:17,490 Speaker 1: so dangerous. 88 00:06:17,570 --> 00:06:21,810 Speaker 2: Exactly, and actually it's even worse than not realizing it's dangerous. 89 00:06:22,090 --> 00:06:25,210 Speaker 2: At the time, we're talking about nineteen tens nineteen twenties, 90 00:06:25,810 --> 00:06:28,970 Speaker 2: there was actually a belief that a small amount of 91 00:06:29,050 --> 00:06:33,770 Speaker 2: radium was beneficial to health. So if you went into 92 00:06:33,890 --> 00:06:38,650 Speaker 2: your local pharmacy, you could buy radium pills, radium dressings, 93 00:06:39,090 --> 00:06:43,570 Speaker 2: radium cosmetics to give you a brighter complexion, radium milk, 94 00:06:43,730 --> 00:06:47,810 Speaker 2: radium toothpaste. You know, there was a whole range of products. 95 00:06:48,050 --> 00:06:52,530 Speaker 2: People actually drank radium water as a health tonic, and 96 00:06:52,570 --> 00:06:56,330 Speaker 2: the recommended dose was five to seven glasses a day. 97 00:06:57,850 --> 00:07:03,410 Speaker 1: Well, it becomes slowly apparent that maybe, in fact, radium 98 00:07:03,530 --> 00:07:08,730 Speaker 1: is not a health tonic. What are the symptoms at 99 00:07:08,730 --> 00:07:10,410 Speaker 1: first of radium poisoning. 100 00:07:11,170 --> 00:07:14,810 Speaker 2: Well, Molly Maggia was one of the first to begin 101 00:07:14,890 --> 00:07:18,810 Speaker 2: her suffering. She worked with her sisters in the Orange 102 00:07:18,850 --> 00:07:23,490 Speaker 2: Plant in New Jersey, and Molly's first symptom was simply 103 00:07:23,650 --> 00:07:27,850 Speaker 2: an aching tooth. And this is what's so insidious about 104 00:07:27,850 --> 00:07:31,370 Speaker 2: the type of radiation poisoning suffered by the Radium girls. 105 00:07:31,850 --> 00:07:36,610 Speaker 2: It started so innocently. Grace Fryle, she had a soul back, 106 00:07:37,130 --> 00:07:41,090 Speaker 2: Katherine Donahue in Illinois, she's got a painful ankle, you know, 107 00:07:41,410 --> 00:07:44,450 Speaker 2: affecting the women in different ways and in ways that 108 00:07:44,490 --> 00:07:47,970 Speaker 2: you wouldn't immediately think, oh, I've got a fatal poisoning. 109 00:07:47,770 --> 00:07:50,170 Speaker 1: Different symptoms, and they all seem so mild. 110 00:07:49,970 --> 00:07:52,850 Speaker 2: At first, exactly. And Molly obviously goes to the dentist 111 00:07:52,930 --> 00:07:55,970 Speaker 2: because she has this painful tooth, and he extracts it. 112 00:07:56,810 --> 00:08:00,050 Speaker 2: But then Molly finds that the next tooth starts to hurt, 113 00:08:00,570 --> 00:08:04,130 Speaker 2: and then the next tooth, and then the next, until 114 00:08:04,410 --> 00:08:08,370 Speaker 2: her dentist doesn't have to pull her teeth anymore because 115 00:08:08,370 --> 00:08:12,170 Speaker 2: they simply fall out on their own. How long does 116 00:08:12,210 --> 00:08:16,850 Speaker 2: this take in Molly's case, it's very rapid. She's one 117 00:08:16,890 --> 00:08:19,530 Speaker 2: of the first Radium girls to be suffering in this way, 118 00:08:19,970 --> 00:08:23,250 Speaker 2: and the dentists don't realize that actually pulling the teeth 119 00:08:23,450 --> 00:08:26,890 Speaker 2: and trying to deal with it actually accelerates her condition. 120 00:08:27,090 --> 00:08:29,810 Speaker 2: So she started getting a saw tooth in the October 121 00:08:29,970 --> 00:08:34,450 Speaker 2: of nineteen twenty one. By the May of nineteen twenty two, 122 00:08:35,050 --> 00:08:38,930 Speaker 2: she has gone to her dentist to complain again about 123 00:08:38,970 --> 00:08:42,690 Speaker 2: the pains in her jaw, and the dentist reaches into 124 00:08:42,730 --> 00:08:46,530 Speaker 2: her mouth to prod at her jawbone, and he finds 125 00:08:46,530 --> 00:08:49,890 Speaker 2: that it literally splinters to his touch, and he's able 126 00:08:49,970 --> 00:08:55,290 Speaker 2: to remove Molly's jaw, not by an operation, but simply 127 00:08:55,570 --> 00:09:00,130 Speaker 2: by lifting it out. 128 00:08:58,530 --> 00:09:01,770 Speaker 1: The point at which your jaw is literally falling apart. 129 00:09:02,090 --> 00:09:05,330 Speaker 1: Of course, at that moment you realize that something terrible 130 00:09:05,570 --> 00:09:09,650 Speaker 1: is wrong. But how do the women in New Jersey 131 00:09:09,890 --> 00:09:12,090 Speaker 1: start to figure out they had some kind of suffering? 132 00:09:12,170 --> 00:09:12,730 Speaker 1: In common? 133 00:09:13,090 --> 00:09:16,730 Speaker 2: Radium poisoning may take several years to show itself, even 134 00:09:16,730 --> 00:09:20,210 Speaker 2: in those mild symptoms that we first talked about. The 135 00:09:20,250 --> 00:09:22,290 Speaker 2: women may not have been dial painters anymore, but of 136 00:09:22,330 --> 00:09:24,850 Speaker 2: course they still were in contact with the sisters and 137 00:09:24,850 --> 00:09:27,170 Speaker 2: cousins and friends they had worked with, and so it 138 00:09:27,250 --> 00:09:30,850 Speaker 2: was literally the women sharing their stories, being open about 139 00:09:30,850 --> 00:09:34,330 Speaker 2: the pain that they were suffering, and realizing, as Catherine 140 00:09:34,330 --> 00:09:36,970 Speaker 2: Sharp put it, one of the New Jersey girls, there 141 00:09:37,050 --> 00:09:41,570 Speaker 2: is something going on with this thing. The women realized 142 00:09:41,730 --> 00:09:44,290 Speaker 2: before any of the experts did, because it took a 143 00:09:44,370 --> 00:09:48,730 Speaker 2: long time before people actually took any attention of the 144 00:09:48,770 --> 00:09:52,330 Speaker 2: fact that dozens of young women were dying in New Jersey. 145 00:09:52,970 --> 00:09:57,930 Speaker 1: And once the women themselves had figured out that something 146 00:09:58,010 --> 00:10:00,170 Speaker 1: was going on, what then. 147 00:10:00,610 --> 00:10:03,450 Speaker 2: These poor working class women had no way of proving 148 00:10:03,810 --> 00:10:06,890 Speaker 2: what had happened to them, and without that proof, they 149 00:10:07,010 --> 00:10:09,690 Speaker 2: couldn't really do anything for me. One of the shocking 150 00:10:09,690 --> 00:10:12,090 Speaker 2: things about the story is they didn't get that expert 151 00:10:12,290 --> 00:10:16,770 Speaker 2: help until the first male employee of the Radium firm died, 152 00:10:17,530 --> 00:10:21,410 Speaker 2: when Dr Lehman passed away in June nineteen twenty five, 153 00:10:21,930 --> 00:10:25,490 Speaker 2: which actually is three years after Molly Maggier dies. In 154 00:10:25,530 --> 00:10:30,650 Speaker 2: September nineteen twenty two, a man dies, a brilliant doctor 155 00:10:30,730 --> 00:10:33,970 Speaker 2: called Harrison Martlin steps up autopsies him. None of the 156 00:10:34,010 --> 00:10:37,250 Speaker 2: other women have been autopsied, and it's through Martland that 157 00:10:37,290 --> 00:10:40,770 Speaker 2: the women finally get the expert proof they need to 158 00:10:40,850 --> 00:10:44,170 Speaker 2: be able to take on the company. But even then 159 00:10:44,410 --> 00:10:47,970 Speaker 2: it's not straightforward, partly because the law is set against them. 160 00:10:47,970 --> 00:10:50,290 Speaker 2: There's a statute of limitations which says you have to 161 00:10:50,330 --> 00:10:54,170 Speaker 2: file suit within two years. It takes sometimes up to 162 00:10:54,250 --> 00:10:57,610 Speaker 2: five years or longer for radium poisoning to show itself. 163 00:10:58,090 --> 00:11:01,810 Speaker 2: And the second major block to these women's fight for 164 00:11:02,010 --> 00:11:06,850 Speaker 2: justice was that the Radium firms themselves denied responsibility, and 165 00:11:06,970 --> 00:11:10,650 Speaker 2: not only that, they were active in trying to cover 166 00:11:10,810 --> 00:11:15,330 Speaker 2: up this scandal and this tragedy, and for them to 167 00:11:15,490 --> 00:11:19,010 Speaker 2: admit that radium was dangerous, even in small amounts, would 168 00:11:19,050 --> 00:11:22,730 Speaker 2: mean the end of their lucrative industries. And so they 169 00:11:22,770 --> 00:11:26,170 Speaker 2: tried everything in their power to silence the truth coming 170 00:11:26,170 --> 00:11:29,010 Speaker 2: out and to silence the Radium girls as well. 171 00:11:30,170 --> 00:11:33,530 Speaker 1: They did engage in all kinds of denial and obfuscation. 172 00:11:33,970 --> 00:11:36,130 Speaker 1: Tell us a little bit about the tactics they were using. 173 00:11:36,890 --> 00:11:40,770 Speaker 2: When the rumors that the women were being killed by 174 00:11:40,810 --> 00:11:43,810 Speaker 2: their work surfaced, one of the first things they did 175 00:11:43,890 --> 00:11:47,410 Speaker 2: was they commissioned an independent report to look into it. 176 00:11:48,250 --> 00:11:51,370 Speaker 2: The problem came when the report came back that the 177 00:11:51,450 --> 00:11:56,690 Speaker 2: radium was the culprit, and at that point they professed 178 00:11:56,730 --> 00:11:59,290 Speaker 2: to not be able to believe what the expert has said. 179 00:11:59,330 --> 00:12:01,890 Speaker 2: This is an expert called doctor Cecil Drinker, who worked 180 00:12:01,890 --> 00:12:06,490 Speaker 2: with his wife Catherine Drinker on this groundbreaking report that 181 00:12:06,570 --> 00:12:09,050 Speaker 2: said a small amount of radium was to blame them. 182 00:12:09,170 --> 00:12:12,730 Speaker 2: The Radium girl's illnesses and deaths, so they hush up 183 00:12:12,770 --> 00:12:15,890 Speaker 2: this report. But they don't only do that, they decide 184 00:12:15,930 --> 00:12:21,170 Speaker 2: to commission another expert called doctor Frederick Flynn to write 185 00:12:21,210 --> 00:12:25,210 Speaker 2: another report, and he finds that it's not the radium, 186 00:12:25,850 --> 00:12:28,450 Speaker 2: and this is the report that gets published. The other 187 00:12:28,490 --> 00:12:31,650 Speaker 2: one the company refuses to allow the drinkers to publish, 188 00:12:31,930 --> 00:12:34,410 Speaker 2: and so it's the other report that comes out. And 189 00:12:34,490 --> 00:12:37,570 Speaker 2: this doctor, doctor Flynn, is also hired to try to 190 00:12:37,610 --> 00:12:40,210 Speaker 2: examine the Radium girls, to tell them that they're in 191 00:12:40,330 --> 00:12:44,370 Speaker 2: perfect health, despite their limps, despite their aching teeth, despite 192 00:12:44,410 --> 00:12:46,130 Speaker 2: the fact that some of their legs are beginning to 193 00:12:46,170 --> 00:12:50,050 Speaker 2: shorten as the radium inside them is destroying their bones. 194 00:12:50,770 --> 00:12:53,210 Speaker 2: Despite all of those things, the doctors are saying, no, 195 00:12:53,250 --> 00:12:55,690 Speaker 2: you're in perfect health. There is no reason for you 196 00:12:55,770 --> 00:12:58,450 Speaker 2: to file suit against the company. There is no reason 197 00:12:58,890 --> 00:13:02,570 Speaker 2: for you to feel worried. And of course these women 198 00:13:03,210 --> 00:13:04,890 Speaker 2: don't know how to respond to be told by an 199 00:13:04,930 --> 00:13:08,010 Speaker 2: expert that you're in perfect health, even if your body 200 00:13:08,090 --> 00:13:11,570 Speaker 2: is telling you that it's not. You know, the lawyers 201 00:13:11,850 --> 00:13:15,410 Speaker 2: are reading Frederick Flynn's report, so they don't want to 202 00:13:15,410 --> 00:13:18,170 Speaker 2: take on the case either, because to their minds, there 203 00:13:18,250 --> 00:13:22,090 Speaker 2: is no proven link that says the radium is hurting 204 00:13:22,130 --> 00:13:24,930 Speaker 2: the women, But it wasn't. 205 00:13:24,690 --> 00:13:27,130 Speaker 1: Only the lawyers who didn't want to help the women. 206 00:13:27,570 --> 00:13:30,050 Speaker 1: After the break will find out how they were treated 207 00:13:30,210 --> 00:13:42,250 Speaker 1: by their community. I mean, one of the things that 208 00:13:42,290 --> 00:13:44,730 Speaker 1: really shocked me reading your book was not just that 209 00:13:45,210 --> 00:13:49,090 Speaker 1: the company hired an expert to write this report and 210 00:13:49,370 --> 00:13:52,930 Speaker 1: it was a whitewash. Okay, that's bad, but their own 211 00:13:52,970 --> 00:13:57,650 Speaker 1: community doctors wouldn't believe them and wrote off their experiences. 212 00:13:57,810 --> 00:14:01,210 Speaker 1: And that seems to partly be because the Great Depression 213 00:14:01,250 --> 00:14:04,130 Speaker 1: is approaching as we move into the nineteen thirties, they 214 00:14:04,130 --> 00:14:08,530 Speaker 1: were worried that if the women were believed, then that 215 00:14:08,570 --> 00:14:10,090 Speaker 1: would be the end of the factory. And if it's 216 00:14:10,130 --> 00:14:11,770 Speaker 1: the end of the factory, then a lot of people 217 00:14:11,770 --> 00:14:13,170 Speaker 1: are going to lose their jobs. That's going to be 218 00:14:13,210 --> 00:14:15,490 Speaker 1: bad for the community. And so there seems to be 219 00:14:15,530 --> 00:14:18,330 Speaker 1: this response from the community at large, for example, from 220 00:14:18,330 --> 00:14:20,450 Speaker 1: the community doctors, to hush all this up. 221 00:14:20,970 --> 00:14:24,050 Speaker 2: Absolutely. And it's hard enough that they're suffering this, it's 222 00:14:24,050 --> 00:14:28,090 Speaker 2: cruciating pain. It's hard enough that they're facing financial hardship 223 00:14:28,130 --> 00:14:30,890 Speaker 2: because of course they're having to pay out so much 224 00:14:30,930 --> 00:14:34,890 Speaker 2: money for operations for medicines. But on top of all 225 00:14:34,930 --> 00:14:37,530 Speaker 2: of that, you've got, you know, your friends and your 226 00:14:37,570 --> 00:14:42,010 Speaker 2: neighbors shunning you, criticizing you, calling you liars and fakes 227 00:14:42,010 --> 00:14:44,290 Speaker 2: and frauds. You know, people thought the women were trying 228 00:14:44,330 --> 00:14:46,370 Speaker 2: to take the companies for a ride. They thought the 229 00:14:46,370 --> 00:14:49,090 Speaker 2: women had just got sick, and they were trying to 230 00:14:49,090 --> 00:14:52,570 Speaker 2: claim money under false pretenses. And so the women were 231 00:14:52,610 --> 00:14:56,250 Speaker 2: really shamed for that and there was no support. So 232 00:14:56,850 --> 00:14:59,970 Speaker 2: for me, it makes their courage and their resilience and 233 00:15:00,010 --> 00:15:03,130 Speaker 2: their persistence in pursuing this case. And as you say, 234 00:15:03,130 --> 00:15:05,690 Speaker 2: it's the nineteen thirties, now, this is decades the women 235 00:15:05,810 --> 00:15:09,810 Speaker 2: have been fighting. It makes their determination and to hold 236 00:15:09,850 --> 00:15:12,730 Speaker 2: the companies to account even more impressive. 237 00:15:13,050 --> 00:15:16,530 Speaker 1: Do you think that if all the people working in 238 00:15:16,570 --> 00:15:20,130 Speaker 1: the Radium dial factories had been men, this would be 239 00:15:20,130 --> 00:15:20,890 Speaker 1: a different story. 240 00:15:21,370 --> 00:15:26,090 Speaker 2: I think it would. Personally, when women say they're in pain, 241 00:15:26,610 --> 00:15:28,650 Speaker 2: when women say I think it's I think it's this, 242 00:15:28,890 --> 00:15:33,090 Speaker 2: often they are dismissed. They're called hysteric, which happened to 243 00:15:33,130 --> 00:15:36,690 Speaker 2: a lot of the Radium girls, and people disbelieve them. 244 00:15:37,290 --> 00:15:41,250 Speaker 2: I also think there is a tendency that women can 245 00:15:41,290 --> 00:15:44,250 Speaker 2: be seen as expendable. I think that definitely happened in 246 00:15:44,290 --> 00:15:47,290 Speaker 2: the case of the radium girls, So I do think 247 00:15:47,330 --> 00:15:49,530 Speaker 2: it would be a different story if it had been 248 00:15:49,570 --> 00:15:52,250 Speaker 2: men who had been harmed. And I think for me, 249 00:15:52,330 --> 00:15:54,290 Speaker 2: one of the most shocking things about the story is 250 00:15:54,330 --> 00:15:57,650 Speaker 2: that these radium firms not only had the dial painting 251 00:15:57,690 --> 00:16:00,930 Speaker 2: studios where the women are being taught to lippoint and 252 00:16:00,930 --> 00:16:03,810 Speaker 2: put the brushes between their lips. They're not informed of 253 00:16:03,850 --> 00:16:06,290 Speaker 2: any danger. So the women think it's fine to be 254 00:16:06,330 --> 00:16:09,010 Speaker 2: covered in the glowing dust and go out dancing after work. 255 00:16:09,370 --> 00:16:11,890 Speaker 2: They think it's fine to paint a silly mustache on 256 00:16:11,930 --> 00:16:14,850 Speaker 2: their face with the glowing paint. Next Door to those 257 00:16:14,890 --> 00:16:17,610 Speaker 2: dial painting studios where all of that is happening, you 258 00:16:17,690 --> 00:16:21,530 Speaker 2: have the laboratories where admittedly the men are handling large 259 00:16:21,530 --> 00:16:26,370 Speaker 2: amounts of radium, but they are protected. They are issued 260 00:16:26,410 --> 00:16:29,730 Speaker 2: with lead aprons, they are told to take enforced vacations 261 00:16:29,770 --> 00:16:33,010 Speaker 2: so they're not overexposed to the radiation. They handle the 262 00:16:33,090 --> 00:16:36,970 Speaker 2: radium with ivory tipped tongs, and they are warned about 263 00:16:37,170 --> 00:16:37,730 Speaker 2: the danger. 264 00:16:38,490 --> 00:16:43,170 Speaker 1: And there's also a tendency to lie to the women 265 00:16:43,770 --> 00:16:47,650 Speaker 1: about the severity of their own condition, even from people 266 00:16:47,730 --> 00:16:52,250 Speaker 1: who have the women's best interests at heart. And there's 267 00:16:52,290 --> 00:16:57,330 Speaker 1: one as really a very moving moment towards the end 268 00:16:57,330 --> 00:17:00,290 Speaker 1: of your book, where one of the heroines of the story, 269 00:17:00,410 --> 00:17:09,130 Speaker 1: Catherine wolf Donahue, she doesn't know she's dying, and she 270 00:17:09,170 --> 00:17:12,650 Speaker 1: covers that in really the most painful and public way possible. 271 00:17:13,730 --> 00:17:16,890 Speaker 2: I wrote that scene that you're talking about with tears 272 00:17:16,890 --> 00:17:20,530 Speaker 2: streaming down my face. And that scene takes place in 273 00:17:20,570 --> 00:17:25,290 Speaker 2: the courtroom in Ottawa, Illinois. Catherine Dunna Hue is now very, 274 00:17:25,370 --> 00:17:29,210 Speaker 2: very sick. She's got a grapefruit sized tumor on her hip. 275 00:17:29,810 --> 00:17:33,090 Speaker 2: She has lost most of her teeth, her mouth is 276 00:17:33,170 --> 00:17:36,650 Speaker 2: constantly seeping pass so she's having to dab her mouth 277 00:17:36,730 --> 00:17:40,130 Speaker 2: with a patent handkerchief. And she's been carried to the 278 00:17:40,170 --> 00:17:44,290 Speaker 2: courtroom because she cannot walk anymore, and her bones are 279 00:17:44,330 --> 00:17:48,610 Speaker 2: so fragile from the radium that she can almost barely 280 00:17:48,650 --> 00:17:51,850 Speaker 2: be carried. It's a large undertaking in order even to 281 00:17:51,890 --> 00:17:56,130 Speaker 2: get her there. But Catherine is determined to have her 282 00:17:56,210 --> 00:17:59,730 Speaker 2: day in court, and so she's sitting in this room 283 00:17:59,930 --> 00:18:03,890 Speaker 2: in the courthouse and one of her doctors is on 284 00:18:03,930 --> 00:18:08,890 Speaker 2: the stand and is being grilled about her prognosis, and 285 00:18:10,890 --> 00:18:13,770 Speaker 2: he is asked directly, what are her chances? You know, 286 00:18:13,810 --> 00:18:17,250 Speaker 2: how long does she have left? What is the situation here? 287 00:18:17,410 --> 00:18:23,170 Speaker 2: And he hesitates before answering because he knows that Catherine 288 00:18:23,210 --> 00:18:26,090 Speaker 2: doesn't know, and she is sitting right there in the courtroom, 289 00:18:26,810 --> 00:18:30,450 Speaker 2: and he glances over at her, and in that glance, 290 00:18:30,610 --> 00:18:34,650 Speaker 2: and in that hesitation, tells Catherine all she needs to 291 00:18:34,690 --> 00:18:38,250 Speaker 2: know that she is not going to make it. She 292 00:18:38,450 --> 00:18:41,850 Speaker 2: knows she is not going to be there for her children, 293 00:18:42,050 --> 00:18:44,050 Speaker 2: her two young children, they are going to grow up 294 00:18:44,130 --> 00:18:53,970 Speaker 2: without a mother. And she lets out this shriek, this scream, 295 00:18:54,010 --> 00:18:59,210 Speaker 2: and clapses to the floor, and her husband rushes to her, 296 00:18:59,250 --> 00:19:03,370 Speaker 2: and her friend Pearl rushes to her, and they carry 297 00:19:03,410 --> 00:19:07,490 Speaker 2: her out. And the doctor's warned that if Catherine continues 298 00:19:07,530 --> 00:19:11,370 Speaker 2: with the case, if she continues to give evidence, it's 299 00:19:11,490 --> 00:19:14,730 Speaker 2: very likely to end in her death. They say that 300 00:19:14,770 --> 00:19:19,130 Speaker 2: the risk is too great, but when Catherine recovers, she insists. 301 00:19:19,210 --> 00:19:22,490 Speaker 2: She says, even if I cannot get to the courtroom, 302 00:19:22,850 --> 00:19:25,730 Speaker 2: the court can come to me. And the following day, 303 00:19:26,170 --> 00:19:28,930 Speaker 2: the court comes to her house at five twenty East 304 00:19:28,970 --> 00:19:32,130 Speaker 2: Superior Street, and they crowd into her front room and 305 00:19:32,170 --> 00:19:34,370 Speaker 2: Catherine is laid out on the sofa with a blanket 306 00:19:34,410 --> 00:19:37,850 Speaker 2: over her, and even though her voice is almost gone, 307 00:19:38,010 --> 00:19:41,890 Speaker 2: even though she is in incredible pain and incredible emotional 308 00:19:41,890 --> 00:19:45,130 Speaker 2: pain at having just been told that she is going 309 00:19:45,210 --> 00:19:49,490 Speaker 2: to die from this, she uses the last vestiges of 310 00:19:49,650 --> 00:19:52,850 Speaker 2: energy that she has to give her evidence. And she 311 00:19:52,930 --> 00:19:55,410 Speaker 2: does it for herself, and she does it for her 312 00:19:55,450 --> 00:19:59,410 Speaker 2: friends and her family, and she does it for all 313 00:19:59,770 --> 00:20:04,490 Speaker 2: the other workers out there who may be hurt if 314 00:20:04,530 --> 00:20:06,170 Speaker 2: she doesn't continue with this fight. 315 00:20:07,370 --> 00:20:12,290 Speaker 1: There's an incredibly moving scene. You kind of love and 316 00:20:12,410 --> 00:20:15,930 Speaker 1: hate her lawyer at that moment because you realize he's 317 00:20:15,970 --> 00:20:20,290 Speaker 1: engineered this. He knows this is going to happen, and 318 00:20:20,610 --> 00:20:23,930 Speaker 1: it's all good for the cause, but it's just excruciating 319 00:20:24,730 --> 00:20:25,090 Speaker 1: for her. 320 00:20:25,410 --> 00:20:26,650 Speaker 2: Yeah. 321 00:20:26,850 --> 00:20:29,170 Speaker 1: The other thing that I could not believe as I 322 00:20:29,210 --> 00:20:32,770 Speaker 1: was reading was that the company then kept on appealing 323 00:20:34,010 --> 00:20:36,290 Speaker 1: because they realized if they were able to hold it 324 00:20:36,370 --> 00:20:38,250 Speaker 1: up long enough, she'd just die, and then they didn't 325 00:20:38,290 --> 00:20:40,130 Speaker 1: have to pay anything because she'd be dead. 326 00:20:40,610 --> 00:20:43,490 Speaker 2: Catherine dies in the end the day after, you know, 327 00:20:43,530 --> 00:20:45,930 Speaker 2: one of those appeals has been filed, so she wins 328 00:20:45,970 --> 00:20:49,930 Speaker 2: her case, but they appeal it, and when she learns 329 00:20:49,970 --> 00:20:54,570 Speaker 2: of that, the strength just went and she passed away 330 00:20:54,770 --> 00:20:55,250 Speaker 2: at home. 331 00:20:56,330 --> 00:21:01,330 Speaker 1: So at first, these women were being rejected by their employers, 332 00:21:01,370 --> 00:21:04,610 Speaker 1: they were being rejected to some extent by their own community. 333 00:21:05,530 --> 00:21:07,930 Speaker 1: Nobody seemed to believe them. But then they did have 334 00:21:08,010 --> 00:21:11,130 Speaker 1: some champions. They did have people who came to fight 335 00:21:11,490 --> 00:21:12,490 Speaker 1: alongside them. 336 00:21:12,570 --> 00:21:15,050 Speaker 2: I really admire the fact that it's other women who 337 00:21:15,450 --> 00:21:19,010 Speaker 2: championed them. Given we're talking about a time, as you say, 338 00:21:19,050 --> 00:21:22,530 Speaker 2: one hundred years ago, nineteen tens, nineteen twenties, nineteen thirties, 339 00:21:23,010 --> 00:21:28,170 Speaker 2: it was still rare to have women in public roles. 340 00:21:28,610 --> 00:21:32,210 Speaker 2: So one of those champions was a person called Katherine Wiley. 341 00:21:32,850 --> 00:21:36,410 Speaker 2: She was the executive secretary of the Consumers League, which 342 00:21:36,650 --> 00:21:40,850 Speaker 2: fought for better working conditions for women, and she finds 343 00:21:40,850 --> 00:21:45,970 Speaker 2: out about the story when a health officer who's been 344 00:21:46,010 --> 00:21:48,010 Speaker 2: dealing with the case. She said, people were just hushing 345 00:21:48,050 --> 00:21:50,490 Speaker 2: it up and brushing it under the carpet. You need 346 00:21:50,530 --> 00:21:54,210 Speaker 2: to keep after them to ensure that something will be done. 347 00:21:54,730 --> 00:21:58,130 Speaker 2: And Katherine Wiley was the best person that could have 348 00:21:58,170 --> 00:22:02,770 Speaker 2: been reached out to. And she immediately interviewed the radium 349 00:22:02,810 --> 00:22:05,890 Speaker 2: girls who were suffering at that time, and she met 350 00:22:06,050 --> 00:22:08,890 Speaker 2: a woman called Marguerite Carlo who was actually the first 351 00:22:09,490 --> 00:22:14,290 Speaker 2: girl to file suit. At that point, Marguerite was very 352 00:22:14,330 --> 00:22:17,770 Speaker 2: near death. She was suffering extremely and Catherine Wiley said, 353 00:22:17,810 --> 00:22:21,850 Speaker 2: having met Marguerite, I cannot rest until I have done 354 00:22:21,930 --> 00:22:26,290 Speaker 2: something to ensure that this never happens again. She was 355 00:22:26,290 --> 00:22:28,370 Speaker 2: the kind of woman that just kept knocking on the doors, 356 00:22:28,450 --> 00:22:34,130 Speaker 2: kept getting the meetings, kept niggling at the company president 357 00:22:34,410 --> 00:22:36,890 Speaker 2: to say, you've got to release the drinker report, what's 358 00:22:36,890 --> 00:22:40,250 Speaker 2: happening with it? And she was just tenacious in ensuring 359 00:22:40,330 --> 00:22:43,330 Speaker 2: that ultimately the truth came out. 360 00:22:43,570 --> 00:22:46,250 Speaker 1: And this was partly campaigning for changes in the law 361 00:22:46,290 --> 00:22:49,130 Speaker 1: because one of the astonishing things is what the Radium 362 00:22:49,210 --> 00:22:52,210 Speaker 1: Nile Company and the other radium companies were doing was 363 00:22:52,210 --> 00:22:55,610 Speaker 1: not actually illegal. There was no protection for workers from poisoning. 364 00:22:55,690 --> 00:22:58,250 Speaker 1: And if it's a slow burning condition, if it takes 365 00:22:58,290 --> 00:23:00,210 Speaker 1: more than two years to become a parent, that doesn't 366 00:23:00,290 --> 00:23:03,250 Speaker 1: count high there's a statute of limitations. So this isn't 367 00:23:03,330 --> 00:23:05,570 Speaker 1: just all the company needed to behave better. It was 368 00:23:05,610 --> 00:23:08,050 Speaker 1: also a case that the whole system needed to change. 369 00:23:08,130 --> 00:23:11,530 Speaker 2: Absolutely from Wiley very quickly got the law changed so 370 00:23:11,570 --> 00:23:16,370 Speaker 2: that something called radium necrosis became a compensable disease under 371 00:23:16,850 --> 00:23:21,290 Speaker 2: New Jersey law, but radium necrosis only referred to the 372 00:23:21,410 --> 00:23:25,930 Speaker 2: jaws disintegrating. It didn't impact on the cancers that the 373 00:23:25,970 --> 00:23:28,690 Speaker 2: women later received. There wasn't to do with the anemia 374 00:23:28,770 --> 00:23:31,130 Speaker 2: that killed many of them. It wasn't to do with 375 00:23:31,770 --> 00:23:35,250 Speaker 2: the fracturing bones that they were suffering. And so Catherine 376 00:23:35,250 --> 00:23:37,810 Speaker 2: Wiley had a sheep at a pretty easy time getting 377 00:23:37,810 --> 00:23:41,210 Speaker 2: that first law through, and it was because no one 378 00:23:41,330 --> 00:23:45,090 Speaker 2: really could claim on it. You had to be really 379 00:23:45,090 --> 00:23:48,690 Speaker 2: smart in how you were drafting these laws so that 380 00:23:48,850 --> 00:23:52,450 Speaker 2: actually people could be held accountable. But she realized her 381 00:23:52,490 --> 00:23:56,250 Speaker 2: mistake and then she fought again to get radium poisoning, 382 00:23:56,330 --> 00:24:00,050 Speaker 2: which would cover everything on the statute books. But tellingly, 383 00:24:00,170 --> 00:24:02,250 Speaker 2: that fight took her much longer. It wasn't until the 384 00:24:02,290 --> 00:24:05,850 Speaker 2: nineteen thirties that she succeeded in getting that law changed. 385 00:24:06,370 --> 00:24:08,570 Speaker 1: And I want to talk briefly about Alice Hamilton. I 386 00:24:08,570 --> 00:24:11,130 Speaker 1: know she's not a central figure in this story, but 387 00:24:11,650 --> 00:24:13,530 Speaker 1: she is a fixture in caution me tale. She's a 388 00:24:13,570 --> 00:24:18,090 Speaker 1: bit of a legend, is well. She was the country's 389 00:24:18,130 --> 00:24:22,450 Speaker 1: leading expert on lead poisoning, and she told Thomas Midgley, 390 00:24:22,610 --> 00:24:26,450 Speaker 1: who was the inventor of CFC's and of adding lead 391 00:24:26,570 --> 00:24:29,210 Speaker 1: to gasoline. She told him not to do it, and 392 00:24:29,290 --> 00:24:31,970 Speaker 1: she tried to get him to stop and tried to 393 00:24:32,210 --> 00:24:34,770 Speaker 1: get that regulated. But she also has this role in 394 00:24:34,810 --> 00:24:36,170 Speaker 1: the radium story as well, doesn't she. 395 00:24:36,850 --> 00:24:39,690 Speaker 2: That's right. Not only did the radium firms cover up 396 00:24:39,690 --> 00:24:43,490 Speaker 2: the Drinker report, but they actually told the Department of Labor, 397 00:24:43,730 --> 00:24:47,010 Speaker 2: who had started investigating all these deaths, they said the 398 00:24:47,090 --> 00:24:50,970 Speaker 2: Drinker report had proved that actually it wasn't radium. So 399 00:24:51,010 --> 00:24:54,770 Speaker 2: they totally lied about the results. And because they were 400 00:24:54,810 --> 00:24:58,130 Speaker 2: refusing to let Drinker published, there was no way to 401 00:24:58,330 --> 00:25:03,370 Speaker 2: refute that. And Alice Hamilton was central in essentially ferreting 402 00:25:03,410 --> 00:25:06,650 Speaker 2: out that truth that the company had lied. Drinker obviously 403 00:25:06,690 --> 00:25:10,090 Speaker 2: was absolutely furious when he found out that the company 404 00:25:10,130 --> 00:25:14,930 Speaker 2: had done that. Catherine Drinker called Arthur Reader, the company president, 405 00:25:15,050 --> 00:25:18,410 Speaker 2: a real villain for having done that. So Alice Hamilton 406 00:25:18,450 --> 00:25:21,690 Speaker 2: was involved in that way and helping Raymond Berry, the 407 00:25:21,690 --> 00:25:24,930 Speaker 2: new Jersey lawyer, with the cases as well, assisting him 408 00:25:24,930 --> 00:25:29,170 Speaker 2: in whatever way she could to ensure that the medical 409 00:25:29,410 --> 00:25:32,210 Speaker 2: and technical information that he needed was there so that 410 00:25:32,250 --> 00:25:35,330 Speaker 2: he could really do his best work in representing the 411 00:25:35,370 --> 00:25:36,450 Speaker 2: women in court. 412 00:25:36,810 --> 00:25:39,770 Speaker 1: We'll find out about lawyer Raymond Berry and the man 413 00:25:39,810 --> 00:25:43,330 Speaker 1: who represented the women involved in a horrifyingly similar case 414 00:25:43,450 --> 00:25:57,490 Speaker 1: in Ottawa. After the break, we're back and I'm talking 415 00:25:57,530 --> 00:26:01,650 Speaker 1: to Kate Moore, author of Radium Girls. So tell me 416 00:26:01,690 --> 00:26:04,650 Speaker 1: about the two lawyers who were central to these two cases, 417 00:26:04,730 --> 00:26:08,930 Speaker 1: Raymond Berry and Lend Grossman. They're quite striking characters, very. 418 00:26:08,890 --> 00:26:11,010 Speaker 2: Much so it was a pleasure to write them in 419 00:26:11,050 --> 00:26:13,050 Speaker 2: the book. A smile comes to my face as I'm 420 00:26:13,050 --> 00:26:15,890 Speaker 2: thinking about them, very different characters. I have to say, 421 00:26:16,530 --> 00:26:20,130 Speaker 2: Raymond Berry was the first lawyer to tackle the radium 422 00:26:20,170 --> 00:26:22,970 Speaker 2: cases because he was working in New Jersey. The New 423 00:26:23,050 --> 00:26:26,050 Speaker 2: Jersey women were working during the First World War. The 424 00:26:26,090 --> 00:26:30,330 Speaker 2: Ottawa studio didn't open until nineteen twenty two, so everything 425 00:26:30,330 --> 00:26:32,970 Speaker 2: that's happening in New Jersey is happening about five years 426 00:26:33,090 --> 00:26:35,530 Speaker 2: ahead of what's happening in Ottawa. And it's one of 427 00:26:35,570 --> 00:26:40,090 Speaker 2: those really frustrating things about looking back at these stories 428 00:26:40,130 --> 00:26:43,170 Speaker 2: from history and thinking, if it had to happen that 429 00:26:43,330 --> 00:26:46,610 Speaker 2: the Radium Girls had to get hurt before we realized 430 00:26:46,610 --> 00:26:49,250 Speaker 2: that a small amount of radium was dangerous, it should 431 00:26:49,250 --> 00:26:52,090 Speaker 2: only have happened to one group of women, and actually 432 00:26:52,610 --> 00:26:56,450 Speaker 2: because of the lies. Because of the lack of communication 433 00:26:56,730 --> 00:27:00,050 Speaker 2: and publication and promotion in those days, it took much 434 00:27:00,050 --> 00:27:01,890 Speaker 2: longer for the truth to out and it led to 435 00:27:01,930 --> 00:27:05,490 Speaker 2: the suffering of many, many more women in New Jersey. 436 00:27:05,850 --> 00:27:08,930 Speaker 2: When the court cases are coming up, the women tried 437 00:27:09,130 --> 00:27:12,610 Speaker 2: desperately to find a lawyer. Everyone is saying no until 438 00:27:12,970 --> 00:27:16,530 Speaker 2: Raymond Berry. He was a very young lawyer, not even 439 00:27:16,530 --> 00:27:20,850 Speaker 2: in his thirties yet he had baby face, good looks, 440 00:27:21,050 --> 00:27:24,730 Speaker 2: blue eyes, blonde hair, are a very very smart man, 441 00:27:24,930 --> 00:27:29,930 Speaker 2: and his brilliance was in tackling the statute of limitations question, 442 00:27:30,010 --> 00:27:32,850 Speaker 2: which was why the women kept getting knocked back by 443 00:27:32,890 --> 00:27:36,570 Speaker 2: many other attorneys. They just couldn't figure out because the 444 00:27:36,650 --> 00:27:39,050 Speaker 2: law said you had to file suit within two years. 445 00:27:39,530 --> 00:27:41,690 Speaker 2: This is now sort of nineteen twenty five, that we're 446 00:27:41,690 --> 00:27:45,250 Speaker 2: talking seven years, eight years since the women have been 447 00:27:45,330 --> 00:27:48,610 Speaker 2: hurt at their workplace. No one else can figure it out, 448 00:27:48,610 --> 00:27:50,290 Speaker 2: but Raymond Berry does. 449 00:27:50,490 --> 00:27:52,970 Speaker 1: Sort's the trick. So there are the kind of true 450 00:27:52,970 --> 00:27:53,530 Speaker 1: tricks to it. 451 00:27:53,570 --> 00:27:57,010 Speaker 2: Really, the women could not file suit until they had 452 00:27:57,090 --> 00:28:00,090 Speaker 2: that proof, the medical, scientific proof that it was the 453 00:28:00,170 --> 00:28:04,010 Speaker 2: radium that had hurt them. One trick is that because 454 00:28:04,050 --> 00:28:07,370 Speaker 2: the radium firm had covered up the Drinker report. They 455 00:28:07,370 --> 00:28:11,490 Speaker 2: shouldn't be allowed to who rely on the delay caused 456 00:28:11,530 --> 00:28:12,290 Speaker 2: by their cover up. 457 00:28:12,570 --> 00:28:16,490 Speaker 1: Well, morally absolutely, I'm just surprised that legally that works, 458 00:28:16,530 --> 00:28:19,170 Speaker 1: but apparently it does completely. 459 00:28:19,250 --> 00:28:21,050 Speaker 2: And then the other twist that he put on it, 460 00:28:21,090 --> 00:28:23,650 Speaker 2: which I think is really smart, is that you're supposed 461 00:28:23,650 --> 00:28:26,210 Speaker 2: to file suit within two years of the point of injury. 462 00:28:26,490 --> 00:28:28,970 Speaker 2: What has happened to Catherine and to Grace and all 463 00:28:29,010 --> 00:28:31,730 Speaker 2: the other women is that they've ingested the radium through 464 00:28:31,770 --> 00:28:35,330 Speaker 2: lip pointing. And radium is what's called a bone seeker, 465 00:28:35,490 --> 00:28:38,210 Speaker 2: so it's a bit like calcium in that way. We 466 00:28:38,290 --> 00:28:40,770 Speaker 2: know when we drink a glass of milk calcium, and 467 00:28:40,850 --> 00:28:43,090 Speaker 2: the milk goes into our bones makes them nice and strong. 468 00:28:43,730 --> 00:28:48,090 Speaker 2: When the radium girls ingested the radium, it also settles 469 00:28:48,130 --> 00:28:52,290 Speaker 2: in their bones. But there once it has settled, it's 470 00:28:52,330 --> 00:28:57,730 Speaker 2: emanating its immense radioactivity. And this is why the jaw 471 00:28:57,730 --> 00:29:02,250 Speaker 2: bones are splintering. The women's legs are spontaneously fracturing and 472 00:29:02,290 --> 00:29:06,970 Speaker 2: shortening because the radium is inside their body and it 473 00:29:07,050 --> 00:29:12,810 Speaker 2: is hurting them constantly because it's constantly emanating radioactivity. And 474 00:29:12,930 --> 00:29:17,170 Speaker 2: the legal argument therefore is the women are still being 475 00:29:17,410 --> 00:29:20,330 Speaker 2: injured because the radio is inside them. It is hurting 476 00:29:20,370 --> 00:29:23,970 Speaker 2: them anew with every second, and so they can file 477 00:29:24,010 --> 00:29:26,570 Speaker 2: suit because the point of injury is still occurring. 478 00:29:27,010 --> 00:29:31,850 Speaker 1: Clever very tell us about Lead Grossman, the lawyer who 479 00:29:31,890 --> 00:29:33,770 Speaker 1: was paid in shoes, see exactly. 480 00:29:34,850 --> 00:29:38,170 Speaker 2: Leonard Grossman Senior was again a very special man. He 481 00:29:38,570 --> 00:29:42,730 Speaker 2: was dynamic, you know, a real showman in the courtroom. 482 00:29:43,170 --> 00:29:45,130 Speaker 2: He really knew what he was doing. In that regard. 483 00:29:45,690 --> 00:29:48,530 Speaker 2: He fought for the underdog, as you say, if people 484 00:29:48,570 --> 00:29:52,250 Speaker 2: couldn't pay him, he sometimes accepted payment in shoes, you know, 485 00:29:52,330 --> 00:29:54,650 Speaker 2: if that was all they had going, he would fight 486 00:29:54,690 --> 00:29:58,170 Speaker 2: for them. And the case of the Radium girls, he 487 00:29:58,250 --> 00:30:01,850 Speaker 2: did it pro bono and it was hours and hours 488 00:30:01,850 --> 00:30:05,130 Speaker 2: and hours of his time. And he kept fighting even 489 00:30:05,170 --> 00:30:09,770 Speaker 2: after Catherine Donahue died. He kept fighting for years because 490 00:30:09,770 --> 00:30:11,490 Speaker 2: it was the right thing to do. He was a 491 00:30:11,530 --> 00:30:14,050 Speaker 2: man who always did the right thing. 492 00:30:14,450 --> 00:30:16,330 Speaker 1: But he did the right thing in the most flamboyant 493 00:30:16,890 --> 00:30:18,210 Speaker 1: way he did. 494 00:30:18,450 --> 00:30:19,970 Speaker 2: Yeah, he was the kind of man that wore sort 495 00:30:19,970 --> 00:30:22,930 Speaker 2: of you know, spat shoes. And he was a larger 496 00:30:22,930 --> 00:30:25,930 Speaker 2: than life character, a large man in himself, and he 497 00:30:26,010 --> 00:30:28,410 Speaker 2: just had that energy and that presence. 498 00:30:29,090 --> 00:30:32,650 Speaker 1: And he deployed that brutally. Sometimes we've alluded to the 499 00:30:32,690 --> 00:30:36,570 Speaker 1: moment where Katherine wil Tonahue discovers in court that she 500 00:30:36,730 --> 00:30:40,450 Speaker 1: is going to die. Leonard Grossman knew that would happen. 501 00:30:40,570 --> 00:30:43,250 Speaker 1: Presumably that whole exchange was something he had rehearsed in 502 00:30:43,250 --> 00:30:45,210 Speaker 1: his mind, I imagine, because he knew it would be 503 00:30:45,250 --> 00:30:46,730 Speaker 1: a winning moment. 504 00:30:47,330 --> 00:30:51,370 Speaker 2: Yeah, and I'm sure Lenna Grossman was aware of the optics, 505 00:30:51,890 --> 00:30:56,010 Speaker 2: shall we say, of Catherine lying on her sofa close 506 00:30:56,050 --> 00:30:59,610 Speaker 2: to death, and everyone crowded around her dining table taking 507 00:30:59,610 --> 00:31:02,650 Speaker 2: the evidence. He had the media there crowded into that 508 00:31:02,850 --> 00:31:06,570 Speaker 2: front room taking pictures of Catherine lying on the sofa 509 00:31:06,690 --> 00:31:09,730 Speaker 2: of her friend Charlotte Purcell, with her dress pinned up 510 00:31:09,770 --> 00:31:13,330 Speaker 2: because her arm has been amputated because of the radium poisoning. 511 00:31:13,490 --> 00:31:17,050 Speaker 2: All the women there sitting in a row, showing physically 512 00:31:17,530 --> 00:31:21,930 Speaker 2: viscerally what they have suffered. And Leonard Grossman, I'm sure 513 00:31:22,370 --> 00:31:26,370 Speaker 2: was aware of the power of those images in reaching 514 00:31:26,370 --> 00:31:30,290 Speaker 2: the public, in reaching the judge, hoping to achieve the 515 00:31:30,410 --> 00:31:31,690 Speaker 2: verdict that he was going for. 516 00:31:32,370 --> 00:31:35,490 Speaker 1: Yeah, Grossman was very clever there, very much. So I 517 00:31:35,530 --> 00:31:39,330 Speaker 1: was really struck by the bravery and the tenacity of 518 00:31:39,370 --> 00:31:42,530 Speaker 1: the women, but also of their solidarity and their sense 519 00:31:42,570 --> 00:31:47,010 Speaker 1: of wider purpose. They weren't just doing this for themselves. 520 00:31:47,090 --> 00:31:51,050 Speaker 1: They were very conscious of their families, husband's children, and 521 00:31:51,090 --> 00:31:54,290 Speaker 1: the wider community that what had happened to them couldn't 522 00:31:54,290 --> 00:31:55,330 Speaker 1: be allowed to happen again. 523 00:31:55,530 --> 00:31:57,970 Speaker 2: That's absolutely right. I think it's one of the amazing 524 00:31:58,010 --> 00:32:01,090 Speaker 2: things about their story, actually, the altruism with which they 525 00:32:01,130 --> 00:32:03,930 Speaker 2: fought for justice, because there wasn't any hope for the 526 00:32:04,010 --> 00:32:07,330 Speaker 2: Radium girls who had got sick, and yet they fought on. 527 00:32:07,970 --> 00:32:10,250 Speaker 2: And in fact, one of my favorite quotations in the 528 00:32:10,250 --> 00:32:14,290 Speaker 2: book comes from Grace Fryer, one of the New Jersey girls, 529 00:32:14,290 --> 00:32:19,010 Speaker 2: who was instrumental in making sure that the court case happened. 530 00:32:19,130 --> 00:32:23,330 Speaker 2: She was single minded in ensuring that they would get 531 00:32:23,330 --> 00:32:26,210 Speaker 2: an attorney. You know, she tried lawyer after lawyer after lawyer. 532 00:32:26,610 --> 00:32:29,810 Speaker 2: Grace was incredibly smart. She ended up working for a 533 00:32:29,890 --> 00:32:32,930 Speaker 2: bank after she had been in the dial painting studios, 534 00:32:33,610 --> 00:32:36,090 Speaker 2: and she used every bit of her brain's channeled on 535 00:32:36,170 --> 00:32:40,010 Speaker 2: this case to make it happen. She was the daughter 536 00:32:40,050 --> 00:32:42,970 Speaker 2: of a union delegate, and I think that passion for 537 00:32:43,050 --> 00:32:47,810 Speaker 2: politics and that understanding of workers' rights and that this 538 00:32:47,970 --> 00:32:51,690 Speaker 2: was wrong. Really drove Grace. When she was asked about 539 00:32:51,730 --> 00:32:55,370 Speaker 2: filing suit while she was doing it, she said, it 540 00:32:55,490 --> 00:32:59,010 Speaker 2: is not for myself that I care. I am thinking 541 00:32:59,090 --> 00:33:02,330 Speaker 2: more of the hundreds of other girls to whom this 542 00:33:02,410 --> 00:33:06,050 Speaker 2: may serve as an example for me. That really sums 543 00:33:06,130 --> 00:33:09,090 Speaker 2: up the power of what they did and what they achieved. 544 00:33:10,330 --> 00:33:13,650 Speaker 1: So what did they achieve? Did they get conversation for 545 00:33:13,730 --> 00:33:17,250 Speaker 1: themselves within their own lives. What's the legacy of this 546 00:33:17,370 --> 00:33:19,650 Speaker 1: case within their own lifetimes? 547 00:33:19,850 --> 00:33:23,890 Speaker 2: Some of them achieved a small measure of justice, shall 548 00:33:23,890 --> 00:33:26,930 Speaker 2: we say, Partly that was court case judgment that went 549 00:33:27,050 --> 00:33:30,090 Speaker 2: for them. Partly it was compensation to help them with 550 00:33:30,090 --> 00:33:33,730 Speaker 2: their medical bills. But the money was really never enough. 551 00:33:34,210 --> 00:33:36,090 Speaker 2: And by the end, it wasn't about the money. It 552 00:33:36,130 --> 00:33:39,050 Speaker 2: was about the moral victory and it was about the 553 00:33:39,090 --> 00:33:43,490 Speaker 2: scientific proof. The legacy therefore goes beyond what they achieved 554 00:33:43,570 --> 00:33:48,810 Speaker 2: in their own lives, and it impacts many different areas 555 00:33:48,970 --> 00:33:52,890 Speaker 2: of society and our world. On a legal front, they 556 00:33:53,010 --> 00:33:56,490 Speaker 2: changed workers compensation laws. They made it so that it 557 00:33:56,690 --> 00:34:00,810 Speaker 2: was illegal to poison your employees. So there were lots 558 00:34:00,810 --> 00:34:04,610 Speaker 2: of gains that they made in that regard. And theirs 559 00:34:04,690 --> 00:34:06,970 Speaker 2: was one of the first cases in which an employer 560 00:34:07,090 --> 00:34:10,930 Speaker 2: was held responsible for the health of their employees. They 561 00:34:10,970 --> 00:34:14,530 Speaker 2: have an incredible legacy in terms of the science of 562 00:34:14,570 --> 00:34:17,890 Speaker 2: this story. No one had ever been poisoned in this 563 00:34:18,050 --> 00:34:22,250 Speaker 2: way before. And actually, the Radium girls were studied for 564 00:34:22,370 --> 00:34:28,130 Speaker 2: decades because scientists appreciated that their bodies held unique knowledge 565 00:34:28,490 --> 00:34:32,330 Speaker 2: for the world about what radiation does to the human body. 566 00:34:32,690 --> 00:34:35,170 Speaker 2: There were departments set up that studied them. The women 567 00:34:35,290 --> 00:34:40,210 Speaker 2: came voluntarily to submit to medical tests, blood tests, sex rays, 568 00:34:40,570 --> 00:34:44,530 Speaker 2: bone marrow investigations, and so on. They had everything done, 569 00:34:44,650 --> 00:34:47,730 Speaker 2: and they came out ruistically to give that knowledge to 570 00:34:47,770 --> 00:34:49,970 Speaker 2: the world because they hoped it would help. They hoped 571 00:34:50,090 --> 00:34:52,850 Speaker 2: no one else would suffer as they did. Radium girls 572 00:34:52,890 --> 00:34:56,330 Speaker 2: were exhumed from the graves in these studies so that 573 00:34:56,850 --> 00:34:59,850 Speaker 2: women that had died in the past their bodies gave 574 00:34:59,930 --> 00:35:03,090 Speaker 2: up the secrets so that the world and scientists could 575 00:35:03,170 --> 00:35:06,450 Speaker 2: learn from them about what radiation does. And in fact, 576 00:35:06,890 --> 00:35:11,330 Speaker 2: they are still using the girls bodies to learn now. 577 00:35:11,770 --> 00:35:15,970 Speaker 2: I've actually been contacted by scientists from NASA and they're 578 00:35:16,090 --> 00:35:19,090 Speaker 2: using the data on the Radium girls to try to 579 00:35:19,170 --> 00:35:23,290 Speaker 2: determine what might happen to astronauts bodies, for example, on 580 00:35:23,330 --> 00:35:26,770 Speaker 2: the journey to Mars. What might space radiation do to them? 581 00:35:26,770 --> 00:35:30,250 Speaker 2: How might it affect them? And so the Radium Girls 582 00:35:30,250 --> 00:35:33,330 Speaker 2: are still having a legacy and they're still helping us 583 00:35:33,530 --> 00:35:37,810 Speaker 2: today learn more about radiation. And I'd say there's also 584 00:35:37,970 --> 00:35:44,410 Speaker 2: a final element to their legacy, which is specifically workplace 585 00:35:44,490 --> 00:35:49,010 Speaker 2: safety in nuclear industries. Thanks to the Radium Girls, they 586 00:35:49,050 --> 00:35:52,610 Speaker 2: did discover that even a small amount of radiation is harmful. 587 00:35:53,010 --> 00:35:56,250 Speaker 2: And it happened just in time for the Second World 588 00:35:56,290 --> 00:35:59,690 Speaker 2: War and the race to build the atomic bomb. And 589 00:35:59,890 --> 00:36:02,810 Speaker 2: the scientist who was in charge of the Manhattan Project 590 00:36:03,370 --> 00:36:05,730 Speaker 2: literally wrote in his diary that as he was walking 591 00:36:05,770 --> 00:36:07,730 Speaker 2: through the labs, he sort of had a vision of 592 00:36:07,810 --> 00:36:10,650 Speaker 2: the Ghost Girls, as the Radium Girls were known. He 593 00:36:10,730 --> 00:36:13,450 Speaker 2: remembered what had happened to them. He only knew what 594 00:36:13,450 --> 00:36:16,650 Speaker 2: would happened to them because of the women's tenacity in 595 00:36:16,690 --> 00:36:20,250 Speaker 2: making their court cases front page news. And he said, 596 00:36:20,330 --> 00:36:23,130 Speaker 2: I don't want anyone on the Manhattan Project to suffer 597 00:36:23,130 --> 00:36:27,570 Speaker 2: as they did, so he insisted that they conduct experiments 598 00:36:27,610 --> 00:36:30,770 Speaker 2: to find out about the biomedical properties of the uranium 599 00:36:30,810 --> 00:36:33,490 Speaker 2: and the plutonium they were using. They were found to 600 00:36:33,490 --> 00:36:38,330 Speaker 2: be biomedically very similar to radium, and therefore the workers 601 00:36:38,370 --> 00:36:42,370 Speaker 2: on the Manhattan Project were protected, and therefore everyone today 602 00:36:42,490 --> 00:36:47,530 Speaker 2: working in nuclear industries is protected because of the Radium Girls. 603 00:36:48,170 --> 00:36:51,890 Speaker 1: There's a more disheartening legacy as well. I mean, the 604 00:36:51,930 --> 00:36:55,690 Speaker 1: first deaths were in the nineteen twenties, the court cases 605 00:36:56,050 --> 00:36:58,930 Speaker 1: were often in the nineteen thirties. Katherine Wilf Donohue died 606 00:36:58,970 --> 00:37:01,450 Speaker 1: in the nineteen thirties, but as late as the nineteen 607 00:37:01,530 --> 00:37:07,210 Speaker 1: seventies you describe people in those communities denying the experiences 608 00:37:07,250 --> 00:37:08,810 Speaker 1: of these women. Tell me about that. 609 00:37:09,130 --> 00:37:12,170 Speaker 2: Because scientists were studying the women for decades. They would 610 00:37:12,170 --> 00:37:16,010 Speaker 2: go and interview people in Ottawa, Illinois, and the interviews 611 00:37:16,010 --> 00:37:19,610 Speaker 2: they conducted, even in the nineteen seventies had those community 612 00:37:19,610 --> 00:37:22,970 Speaker 2: members saying so and so was never very healthy to 613 00:37:23,010 --> 00:37:25,290 Speaker 2: begin with. I don't think it was radium poisoning. You know, 614 00:37:25,370 --> 00:37:27,970 Speaker 2: she always had one foot in the grave. They were 615 00:37:28,010 --> 00:37:30,850 Speaker 2: denying it even in the nineteen seventies. And I think 616 00:37:30,890 --> 00:37:33,890 Speaker 2: one of the lessons of the Radium Girl's story is 617 00:37:33,930 --> 00:37:37,930 Speaker 2: that history can repeat itself if we're not vigilant, and 618 00:37:38,570 --> 00:37:43,890 Speaker 2: we know that similar stories are happening even today, and 619 00:37:43,930 --> 00:37:47,570 Speaker 2: so it's about being aware of that, and it's about 620 00:37:48,610 --> 00:37:54,330 Speaker 2: tackling injustices and lies when we see them, and knowing 621 00:37:54,970 --> 00:37:58,330 Speaker 2: that it may take years, but if you're patient and 622 00:37:58,370 --> 00:38:01,730 Speaker 2: you persevere, the truth will out. 623 00:38:02,370 --> 00:38:07,090 Speaker 1: We always promise our listeners a lesson in every cautionary tale, 624 00:38:07,130 --> 00:38:09,490 Speaker 1: and I think you've just given us the lion to 625 00:38:09,530 --> 00:38:11,490 Speaker 1: think about. Is there anything else you'd like to add? 626 00:38:13,050 --> 00:38:15,530 Speaker 2: I think the only thing I'd like to add is 627 00:38:16,850 --> 00:38:20,370 Speaker 2: about the girls themselves, which was always my mission and 628 00:38:20,410 --> 00:38:23,930 Speaker 2: my motive in writing The Radium Girls. It was about 629 00:38:23,970 --> 00:38:29,970 Speaker 2: celebrating the women Grace Fryer, Katherine Wolf, Danny Hughe, Molly Maggia, 630 00:38:30,610 --> 00:38:35,050 Speaker 2: these incredible women and for me, actually, I think the 631 00:38:35,050 --> 00:38:37,890 Speaker 2: biggest lesson of all that we can learn from The 632 00:38:37,970 --> 00:38:42,410 Speaker 2: Radium Girls is that no matter how small you may 633 00:38:42,490 --> 00:38:48,130 Speaker 2: feel or how powerless, you can make a difference. Because 634 00:38:48,130 --> 00:38:51,850 Speaker 2: that's what these women did as a sisterhood. They banded together, 635 00:38:52,450 --> 00:38:54,730 Speaker 2: they fought for what they believed in, and they stood 636 00:38:54,770 --> 00:38:58,690 Speaker 2: up for themselves and they made every second count. 637 00:39:01,810 --> 00:39:04,490 Speaker 1: Kate More, thank you so much for talking to cause 638 00:39:04,610 --> 00:39:12,410 Speaker 1: me tales. Thank you so much for inviting me. I've 639 00:39:12,410 --> 00:39:15,410 Speaker 1: been speaking with Kate Moore. She is the New York 640 00:39:15,450 --> 00:39:19,050 Speaker 1: Times best selling author of The Radium Girls, which of 641 00:39:19,090 --> 00:39:22,290 Speaker 1: course is available wherever you get good books. She has 642 00:39:22,290 --> 00:39:25,610 Speaker 1: written many other books, and most recently the critically acclaimed 643 00:39:25,890 --> 00:39:33,170 Speaker 1: The Woman They Could Not Silence. Cautionary Tales is written 644 00:39:33,170 --> 00:39:36,450 Speaker 1: by me Tim Harford with Andrew Wright. It's produced by 645 00:39:36,450 --> 00:39:40,330 Speaker 1: Alice Fines with support from Marilyn Rust. The sound design 646 00:39:40,410 --> 00:39:44,170 Speaker 1: and original music is the work of Pascal Wise. Sarah 647 00:39:44,290 --> 00:39:47,810 Speaker 1: Nix edited the scripts. It features the voice talents of 648 00:39:47,850 --> 00:39:52,770 Speaker 1: Ben Crowe, Melanie Gushridge, Stella Harford, Jamma Saunders and rufus Wright. 649 00:39:53,530 --> 00:39:56,410 Speaker 1: The show also wouldn't have been possible without the work 650 00:39:56,450 --> 00:40:01,970 Speaker 1: of Jacob Weisberg, Ryan Dilly, Greta Cohne, Dital Mollard, John Schnaz, 651 00:40:02,370 --> 00:40:07,290 Speaker 1: Eric Handler, Carrie Brody and Christina Sullivan. Cautionary Tales is 652 00:40:07,330 --> 00:40:11,370 Speaker 1: a production of Pushkin in Industries. It's recorded at Wardoor 653 00:40:11,490 --> 00:40:15,410 Speaker 1: Studios in London by Tom Berry. If you like the show, 654 00:40:15,770 --> 00:40:20,850 Speaker 1: please remember to share, rate and review, tell your friends, 655 00:40:20,890 --> 00:40:22,770 Speaker 1: and if you want to hear the show ad free, 656 00:40:23,050 --> 00:40:26,130 Speaker 1: sign up for Pushkin Plus on the show page. It's 657 00:40:26,210 --> 00:40:34,450 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts or at pushkin dot Fm. Slash plus