Speaker 1: Hi everyone, Andre here, I have some exciting news to share.
Speaker 1: ABC has turned Betrayal Weekly into an eight episode anthology,
Speaker 1: which means each episode features one of your favorite Betrayal
Speaker 1: Weekly stories. You'll get to see the people involved, hear
Speaker 1: from people who have never spoken before, and actually see
Speaker 1: where the story took place. We are so proud and
Speaker 1: excited to share it with you all. It's called Betrayal,
Speaker 1: Secrets and Lies and you can watch it every Sunday
Speaker 1: at ten pm Eastern Standard Time, nine pm Central. Please
Speaker 1: check it out. Throughout the years we've worked on this show,
Speaker 1: our team has talked to hundreds of people who've been
Speaker 1: through some kind of betrayal. Some of their stories are
Speaker 1: about abuse left undiscovered or unchecked for years. Others are
Speaker 1: about financial crimes or secret identities. But across all of
Speaker 1: these stories there are similarities, like in the way people
Speaker 1: talk about the aftermath and the moment everything changed.
Speaker 2: Our life blew up. On April eleventh, April twenty twenty
Speaker 2: two is when D Day happened and everything this blew up.
Speaker 1: All of this blew off our life, our kids' lives,
Speaker 1: our community.
Speaker 2: He completely ruined my family.
Speaker 1: For so many people, a Betrayal is an ending, a
Speaker 1: death of the life they knew. I often get asked
Speaker 1: if it's depressing working on stories like this, day in,
Speaker 1: day out, and the truth is a lot of the
Speaker 1: time it's the opposite, because as much as these are
Speaker 1: stories about the moment of destruction, they're also about what
Speaker 1: happens after that moment, help people get up the next day,
Speaker 1: how they rebuild after the smoke clears. I don't think
Speaker 1: it's an exaggeration to say a bomb dropped on Saskia's life,
Speaker 1: and yet today, seven years after her discovery, she's still standing.
Speaker 2: I think it would surprise him to see how much
Speaker 2: stronger I've gotten, even since his attempt to totally destroy me.
Speaker 2: I was not going to be just a dispensable person,
Speaker 2: someone that you can use and abuse and then discard.
Speaker 2: His focus was on my weaknesses and he didn't realize
Speaker 2: how strong I am.
Speaker 1: I'm Andrea Gunning and this is Betrayal, Season five, episode ten,
Speaker 1: Waking Up. Before we talk about where Saska is today,
Speaker 1: there's something I want to share. It's a bit of
Speaker 1: a left turn, but it has a lot to do
Speaker 1: with why I do this work and why I felt
Speaker 1: drawn to Saskia's story In college, I was raped. At
Speaker 1: the time, I was going through a really bad depression,
Speaker 1: and much in the same way that Saskia did, I
Speaker 1: drank to cope. One night, when I was drunk, a
Speaker 1: person who I considered a friend assaulted me. It wasn't
Speaker 1: until the next day, when I woke up that I
Speaker 1: knew something had happened. For years, I blamed myself. Maybe
Speaker 1: I let him on, Maybe I deserved it. It's a
Speaker 1: feeling a lot of victims of sexual violence experience, and
Speaker 1: like a lot of victims, those feelings kept me silent
Speaker 1: for a long time. I questioned myself and my understanding
Speaker 1: of what I experienced. But that wasn't the case for Saskia.
Speaker 1: As soon as she found out what Mike did to her,
Speaker 1: she saw the truth clearly.
Speaker 2: He said, I guess we're both a little bit crazy.
Speaker 2: I said, no, no, I have mental health issues. You're
Speaker 2: a predator and you're a monster.
Speaker 1: This is something that's always struck me about Saskia's story,
Speaker 1: and it's actually pretty rare. Immediately she knew the gravity
Speaker 1: of what Mike had done. She went to the authorities
Speaker 1: to protect herself and to keep others safe. And then
Speaker 1: she took the stand and stood up to him.
Speaker 2: You're a dangerous person who prays on vulnerable and trusting people.
Speaker 2: You're sexual predator, Michael loving Good. You do have this
Speaker 2: inner strength that comes out at times.
Speaker 1: That's Carrie Hartman, one of Betrayal's producers.
Speaker 3: Where did that come from?
Speaker 2: I don't know.
Speaker 1: I really don't know wherever it came from. I've always
Speaker 1: admired that strength in Saskia, and back in those early
Speaker 1: days after her discovery, her bravery was clear to everyone
Speaker 1: around her. It looked like reporting the crime, taking the stand,
Speaker 1: seeing her divorce trial through, no matter how many insults
Speaker 1: she had to face. But there's more than one way
Speaker 1: to be brave. This came up with Ashley Enderfirth, the
Speaker 1: original prosecutor on Soaski's case, at the end of our interview,
Speaker 1: just before we stopped recording, there was one last thing
Speaker 1: Ashley wanted to say.
Speaker 4: We talked about how brave Soaskia is to have come
Speaker 4: forward and to have been willing to go through this process.
Speaker 4: But when you experience something like this, bravery takes different forms.
Speaker 4: While it is undoubtedly brave to come forward, sometimes bravery
Speaker 4: is just getting up the next morning and living your life.
Speaker 1: This was something I needed to hear and I imagine
Speaker 1: some listeners out there need to hear it too. Bravery
Speaker 1: isn't always about pursuing criminal action. I had to understand
Speaker 1: that after what happened to me, keeping my grades up,
Speaker 1: graduating and just getting on with my life was the
Speaker 1: bravest version of myself. And today that form of bravery
Speaker 1: is what Saskia is practicing too.
Speaker 2: Kitties, Chicky, the Rito, Hippie, Pumpkin.
Speaker 1: The days of pursuing justice are now behind her. These days,
Speaker 1: for Saskia, bravery looks like getting out of bed and
Speaker 1: starting her day, feeding her pets, going to work, taking
Speaker 1: a walk.
Speaker 2: After the discovery, I wasn't able to do anything. I
Speaker 2: wasn't able to work. I was constantly on hyper alert.
Speaker 2: It really felt like this is it and that there's
Speaker 2: no light at the end of the tunnel.
Speaker 1: Nowadays, she's not only back to normal routine, she's creating
Speaker 1: that routine for herself for the first time in her
Speaker 1: adult life.
Speaker 2: Seven years ago, I was like a baby just starting out,
Speaker 2: just learning to crawl, and learning to crawl was learning
Speaker 2: what I would choose to do on my own. I
Speaker 2: had never really been single until a few years ago,
Speaker 2: and just learning when I'm by myself, what do I
Speaker 2: choose to do? What do I choose to eat, what
Speaker 2: do I choose to watch? And to then incorporate that
Speaker 2: into who I am. For me to get my agency
Speaker 2: back and be able to do what is good for
Speaker 2: me is where my power lies now.
Speaker 1: Before everything happened, everyone thought Saskia and needed someone like
Speaker 1: Mike to save her. Here's her sister, Marisa.
Speaker 5: I've always viewed her as my baby sister, as a
Speaker 5: very strong person, but somebody who's vulnerable, and he gave
Speaker 5: her a sense of stability.
Speaker 1: Today Marisa sees all that Saskia is capable of on
Speaker 1: her own.
Speaker 5: She's standing alone, she's doing life, She's creating her own stability.
Speaker 1: Now, there's been so much change in the right direction.
Speaker 1: But there's a flip side to all this growth.
Speaker 2: I feel like I've started spending most of my time alone.
Speaker 1: It's not just that Saskia is taking time for herself.
Speaker 1: As Marisa told us.
Speaker 5: I would say that she socially isolates more so than
Speaker 5: she ever did.
Speaker 1: Saskia has her kids, but they're older now and most
Speaker 1: of the time they're out of the house or with
Speaker 1: their dad. She works from home and stays there through
Speaker 1: the evening with her pets to keep her company. Since
Speaker 1: finding out about Mike's crimes, her world's gotten a lot smaller.
Speaker 2: I was so devastated and shocked by everything that how
Speaker 2: and that I had no choice but to start to
Speaker 2: protect myself a little bit. And that's something that is empowering,
Speaker 2: right to know that I can make my own choices
Speaker 2: and I can stay as safe as I need to
Speaker 2: or want to.
Speaker 1: But by putting up these walls, she's not only protecting
Speaker 1: herself against bad people, she's isolating herself from friends and family.
Speaker 1: Here's Marisa again.
Speaker 5: She's been stuck in that fight mode for so long.
Speaker 5: I want her to be open to the good in people,
Speaker 5: and I want her to know what that feels like,
Speaker 5: and to know that he didn't take it from her.
Speaker 1: When my reporting team and I went to Maryland to
Speaker 1: meet Saskia, we noticed those walls too. We'd spent months
Speaker 1: talking to her in advance, explaining the production process and
Speaker 1: what to expect. She was fully on board in all
Speaker 1: of her inner views. She was open, but whenever we
Speaker 1: weren't recording, the walls went back up in a way
Speaker 1: I'd never encountered before with other stories. For instance, during
Speaker 1: our reporting trips, we usually take our storytellers out to
Speaker 1: dinner with our team. Saski was the first person I've
Speaker 1: worked with who didn't really want to go. That was
Speaker 1: a real learning moment for me, the idea that going
Speaker 1: out to dinner with us could be hard it was.
Speaker 2: I stopped doing those things for a long time. It's
Speaker 2: been really hard for me to get back out there.
Speaker 2: I don't think that I can ever trust anybody. I
Speaker 2: don't think that I could ever fully be confident that
Speaker 2: someone wasn't misleading me or manipulating me because I was
Speaker 2: so sure that he was a good person and that
Speaker 2: you love me. How can I ever get to the
Speaker 2: point where I truly don't fear that?
Speaker 1: On this show, we're asking people who've experienced a traumatic
Speaker 1: betrayal to trust us with their story. It always takes
Speaker 1: months of building rapport to get to that point. By
Speaker 1: the time we got to Maryland, Saskia was ready to
Speaker 1: share her story, but we questioned if she was ready
Speaker 1: to really put herself out there with this show. So
Speaker 1: I asked her about that. I said, to you, we
Speaker 1: don't have to do this.
Speaker 2: We don't have to go forward with this.
Speaker 1: You can always circle back when you are ready. How
Speaker 1: did that occur for you?
Speaker 2: It made me feel a little bit vulnerable, like they're
Speaker 2: seeing how hard this is for me, Like what am
Speaker 2: I doing? This is so difficult.
Speaker 1: Part of her thought about ending the whole project right there. Instead,
Speaker 1: she made a choice, the choice to keep going.
Speaker 2: I feel like this was the journey that was put
Speaker 2: in for me and I was gonna see it through,
Speaker 2: regardless of how difficult it was.
Speaker 1: For years, Saskia has received support from a psychiatrist and
Speaker 1: other mental health providers, but in choosing to do this podcast,
Speaker 1: we wanted to ensure she had extra support, so we
Speaker 1: connected her with Jessica Beaum.
Speaker 3: I'm a psychotherapist, a licensed mental health counselor. I'm an
Speaker 3: author of two books, Anxiously Attached and Safe.
Speaker 1: If you've been listening to our show for a while,
Speaker 1: you might recognize jess from season two where she worked
Speaker 1: with our subject, Ashley Linton.
Speaker 3: I studied interpersonal neural biology, and that is a study
Speaker 3: of how we form as infants and young beings in
Speaker 3: relationship with others. That's how we form our attachment patterns,
Speaker 3: and I work a lot with my clients on getting
Speaker 3: into their body and starting to be with their nervous
Speaker 3: system and starting to connect all those dots.
Speaker 1: Following our reporting trip, Jess and Saskia started meeting weekly.
Speaker 3: And I'm going to continue working with her to the
Speaker 3: other side of this whenever she gets to the other side.
Speaker 1: Often, Jess and Saskia talked about emotions that came up
Speaker 1: throughout the production process. It took strength to report the
Speaker 1: crime and get through those early days, but in many
Speaker 1: ways that strength was a reflex. She saw no other
Speaker 1: path than to fight this choice, to revisit what happened
Speaker 1: to her. To trust other people with her story has
Speaker 1: demanded a different kind of strength. Jess and Saskia agreed
Speaker 1: to record a few of their sessions. Saskia listened back
Speaker 1: to these recordings, and now she wants other people to
Speaker 1: hear them too, in the hopes that her breakthroughs might
Speaker 1: help somebody else.
Speaker 2: In the beginning, when I met with the producers, it
Speaker 2: felt profound, but it also was so scary and so
Speaker 2: uncomfortable that I honestly was like a little kid, like
Speaker 2: I hid my face in my shirt because it felt
Speaker 2: so strange receiving compassion and empathy and sympathy about what
Speaker 2: Mike did.
Speaker 3: To me, and you had to start to recognize how
Speaker 3: bad it was.
Speaker 2: Yeah, how hard that was. I never felt important enough
Speaker 2: to really do the deep diving into me and my
Speaker 2: story in my life. It feels wrong to me because
Speaker 2: I'm not used to doing that.
Speaker 3: And we have to get in touch with all the
Speaker 3: pain to do that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's probably what makes me feel like I want.
Speaker 4: To rite one.
Speaker 3: I think that being vulnerable like this and feeling it,
Speaker 3: part of you wants to do the work, and the
Speaker 3: part of you is so uncomfortable with showing up for it.
Speaker 3: And I think that's actually a very normal part of
Speaker 3: this experience, or the re experiencing of it all.
Speaker 2: I totally agree. On Sunday night, we had a really
Speaker 2: difficult recording session for the podcast. I was talking to.
Speaker 1: Kitln Caitlyn is one of our producers.
Speaker 2: And she saw that I visibly got tearful and then
Speaker 2: started crying. And Caitlyn's response, of course, was empathy and like,
Speaker 2: if this is too much for you, let's stop, And
Speaker 2: I said no, like I need to feel these feelings.
Speaker 2: It's hard, but I know that this is necessary.
Speaker 3: It's harder before it gets easier. Yep, that's what I'm finding,
Speaker 3: And you know, Soski, some people don't have the capacity.
Speaker 3: It takes a lot to slow down and feel.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's been really hard a few years. I'm proud
Speaker 2: of myself for taking the time to be by myself
Speaker 2: and come to some realizations. But it's a scary thing
Speaker 2: to do at forty seven years old. I wish that
Speaker 2: it would have happened to that earlier for me, so
Speaker 2: I could have avoided some of these consequences.
Speaker 3: I don't know how many clients I have that are
Speaker 3: like forty or fifty or fifty five who say the
Speaker 3: same thing, like I wish I could have done this sooner.
Speaker 3: I remember asking my mentor once when I got out
Speaker 3: of a really unhealthy relationship, I said, did I need
Speaker 3: to go through this pretty traumatic relationship to have this
Speaker 3: healing process occur? Like? Was there another path? Sometimes we're
Speaker 3: just not ready to go there until things get bad
Speaker 3: enough or we need a wake up call.
Speaker 2: Yeah, right, we have no choice but to slow down
Speaker 2: or stop and deal with things.
Speaker 1: In slowing down, Saskia is not only facing these emotions
Speaker 1: coming up through the podcast or sitting with her trauma
Speaker 1: from Mike. She's going back further to her childhood to
Speaker 1: understand why she gravitated towards someone like Mike and to
Speaker 1: try to break that pattern going forward. Remember, Saskia grew
Speaker 1: up as the youngest of four. Her father struggled with
Speaker 1: mental illness, and her mom was busy keeping the family afloat.
Speaker 1: It had a real impact on her. She always had
Speaker 1: a lot of friends, but on the inside, I still.
Speaker 2: Felt so alone and like a freak. In school, I
Speaker 2: remember crying in the bathrooms and not really knowing why.
Speaker 2: Looking back, I was really struggling with depression and anxiety.
Speaker 1: A big part of why she turned to alcohol.
Speaker 2: I remember the first time getting drunk and how good
Speaker 2: it felt. It helped me cope with a lot of
Speaker 2: things that I hadn't dealt with yet, were under the surface,
Speaker 2: stuff from my childhood.
Speaker 3: Doesn't it make sense? That's part of the human desires.
Speaker 3: We go towards what feels good, what releases chemicals, what
Speaker 3: feels a sense of belonging, And you weren't getting any
Speaker 3: of that at home, right.
Speaker 2: Maybe that's what I did in my relationships too. I
Speaker 2: didn't get what I needed emotionally, and so that's always
Speaker 2: what I was searching for, that feeling sure Mike was
Speaker 2: really the first person that I thought actually loved me
Speaker 2: and was safe. It would be awful even if it
Speaker 2: was a stranger who did this to me or someone
Speaker 2: I had just met, but the fact that this was
Speaker 2: my partner for seven years.
Speaker 3: Supposed to be the safest person to you.
Speaker 2: I mean, he was my best friend. With him, I
Speaker 2: felt really cared for, and I've never felt that before
Speaker 2: in my life.
Speaker 3: When you grow up with childhood neglect and trauma, that
Speaker 3: very young part of you is looking to be taken
Speaker 3: care of, yeah, and attracted to someone who appears safe,
Speaker 3: who appears like they're going to take care of that
Speaker 3: little girl, and it ends up becoming a nightmare.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 3: Mike presented as someone different, He presented as someone safer,
Speaker 3: He presented as not your normal type. And it's almost
Speaker 3: like a fish on a hook. Your inner child is
Speaker 3: projecting the perfect parent onto this person. This is going
Speaker 3: to be the solution, because now this person is safe,
Speaker 3: They're meeting all your needs. And the truth is your
Speaker 3: attachment needs were still underneath the surface.
Speaker 2: One hundred percent. I mean, you've helped me realize that
Speaker 2: I was seeking validation and feeling yeah taken care of.
Speaker 3: And he was in a position of power because he
Speaker 3: met those needs so well.
Speaker 2: For you, looking at how I got to this place
Speaker 2: has been really important because I don't need saving.
Speaker 1: For the first time in her life, Saskia is not
Speaker 1: dating through this work in therapy, She's breaking patterns, sitting
Speaker 1: with her pain, putting herself first.
Speaker 2: I feel like I'm giving myself as much space and
Speaker 2: time as I need to heal. I don't have time
Speaker 2: or energy to prioritize somebody else over me right now,
Speaker 2: and that's when the healing has really started. I feel
Speaker 2: like I need to be able to trust myself before
Speaker 2: I'll be able to trust anybody else. What I do
Speaker 2: know now is that I can do it on my own.
Speaker 2: If somebody makes me uncomfortable or somebody isn't concerned with
Speaker 2: my feelings, I can walk away and I can still
Speaker 2: be okay. I just wish it wasn't such a hard
Speaker 2: lesson for me to learn, but I don't think there
Speaker 2: was an easier one that would have hook you up
Speaker 2: ook me up.
Speaker 1: As I was listening to Saskia and Jess's last recorded session,
Speaker 1: I heard something that made me smile. Saska was looking
Speaker 1: back on the early days of working with us and
Speaker 1: how much has changed since then.
Speaker 2: I'm definitely a people pleaser. If other people like me,
Speaker 2: that makes me happy, and with this podcast, there was
Speaker 2: a lot of that. Like I didn't know what support
Speaker 2: to expect, so it was all very kind.
Speaker 1: Of scary, but slowly, through lots of interviews, check ins,
Speaker 1: and visits, our team earned Sask's trust. Today, our conversations
Speaker 1: are as much about what happened to her as they
Speaker 1: are about what shows we're watching. But our pets are
Speaker 1: doing good days and bad days at work. Saska's walls
Speaker 1: are down, and to me that's an honor. Are really
Speaker 1: the first new people Saske has let into her world
Speaker 1: in a long time.
Speaker 2: The support that I felt from working on this podcast,
Speaker 2: it's been something that I've never felt before, the empathy
Speaker 2: and the understanding. It's crazy how it happened, and I
Speaker 2: don't really believe in fate, but it was just what
Speaker 2: I need didn't to deal with it and heal and.
Speaker 3: Yeah, do all the hard work. I know it's a reexperiencing,
Speaker 3: but I think it's the re experiencing with the support
Speaker 3: that makes the difference.
Speaker 2: I totally agree.
Speaker 1: Once the project ends, we're not going anywhere, but just
Speaker 1: want Saska to take this experience of learning to trust
Speaker 1: us and translate it into trusting others again in her
Speaker 1: everyday life.
Speaker 3: The way to heal this, Saskia, is now through the
Speaker 3: work with me, but also other people who you can
Speaker 3: be vulnerable with, who see you, who hold this sadness
Speaker 3: with you. Instead of finding a new man and a
Speaker 3: new solution, we need to slow down and start to
Speaker 3: learn what's going on inside and be with our core wounds.
Speaker 3: And a way to break this pattern is to lean
Speaker 3: on other people who don't medicate the trauma, but can
Speaker 3: be with you in your pain.
Speaker 2: I do have people that I knew care about me.
Speaker 3: Who's one of those people my sister.
Speaker 2: I think I used to feel like she wanted to
Speaker 2: be there, but it was just one more thing in
Speaker 2: her life that she felt like she wanted to fix.
Speaker 2: Now she kind of asks like, do you just want
Speaker 2: me to be here? So listen.
Speaker 3: That is literally the only thing we need is we
Speaker 3: just need people to be with us.
Speaker 1: In addition to Marisa, Saskia has her friends, the ones
Speaker 1: you've heard from throughout the season, but it hasn't always
Speaker 1: felt easy to open up to them.
Speaker 2: I've always put a lot of pressure on myself not
Speaker 2: to show how much pain I'm in.
Speaker 3: I think there's a piece to trauma survivors where we
Speaker 3: are not used to people who accept us unconditionally and
Speaker 3: like us when we're messy and can be with all
Speaker 3: our parts, so we're like I have to perform.
Speaker 2: I would never reach out to a friend event I
Speaker 2: wouldn't answer my phone unless I was in a good mood.
Speaker 2: I would look internally and be like, how can I
Speaker 2: fix myself so I can be okay for other people.
Speaker 1: Before Mike, Saskio was the silly, bubbly one in her
Speaker 1: friend group no matter what she was going through on
Speaker 1: the inside. But after her discovery.
Speaker 2: There was no putting on a happy face. Everything went
Speaker 2: dark for me and being around people that just had
Speaker 2: normal lives or happy relationships or we're talking about I
Speaker 2: don't know what they bought at the store. It was
Speaker 2: easier for me to stay away.
Speaker 1: But connection is a two way street. Sometimes her friends
Speaker 1: haven't known the best way to show up for Saskia,
Speaker 1: if they should or could talk about what happened when
Speaker 1: we were in Maryland. I brought that up with Saski's
Speaker 1: friend head.
Speaker 2: Do you guys as a friend group talk about hard things?
Speaker 5: No?
Speaker 6: Oh, the move or phrase app not with the person
Speaker 6: in the room.
Speaker 2: Why do you think that is?
Speaker 6: I think a lot of us are people pleasers, and
Speaker 6: so we don't want to hurt anyone's feelings and it's
Speaker 6: not meant to be like malice or like gossipy or something.
Speaker 6: It's anyone concern, but not having the confidence to bring
Speaker 6: it up directly with the person.
Speaker 1: There's also the guilt her friends feel about what happened
Speaker 1: to Saskia. Looking back now knowing what Mike was doing,
Speaker 1: Heather feels a lot of anger at herself. Remember she
Speaker 1: was the friend that told Saskia to go through with
Speaker 1: the wedding after the first time Saskia saw something on
Speaker 1: Mike's laptop.
Speaker 6: I wish I would have given her that out and
Speaker 6: been the friend that can be like, you don't have
Speaker 6: to do this if you don't want to, Like, if
Speaker 6: you don't feel like something's right, you don't have to
Speaker 6: go through with this.
Speaker 1: It's uncomfortable to look back and wonder if you could
Speaker 1: have done anything to differently. That guilt can make it
Speaker 1: hard to talk about what happened. But there's one more
Speaker 1: reason I think these friends don't talk about what Saskia
Speaker 1: went through. It's the reason why for years there weren't
Speaker 1: stories like this one out there, and it's a big
Speaker 1: part of why it took so long for men like
Speaker 1: Jeffrey Epstein, Harvey Weinstein, and Bill Cosby to be held accountable.
Speaker 1: We've all been taught not to talk about rape. It's
Speaker 1: too violent, too gross, something meant to be kept private,
Speaker 1: especially when it's perpetrated by a good guy, a powerful guy,
Speaker 1: or a partner. And in Saskia's case, there's digital evidence,
Speaker 1: the photos and videos of her rape that will live
Speaker 1: on on the internet forever. It's a horrific, ongoing part
Speaker 1: of Mike's crimes, one that is hard for anyone to
Speaker 1: talk about, even Saskia.
Speaker 2: I've been not dealing with that, not thinking about it.
Speaker 3: You feel like trying to block it out of your
Speaker 3: psyche is how you've been protecting yourself from it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure, I don't think I knew how hard
Speaker 2: it was going to be, how much I had suppressed
Speaker 2: in this to just.
Speaker 1: Get by Maurica can see the effect these images have
Speaker 1: on Saskia.
Speaker 5: She's embarrassed about the idea of her being on display,
Speaker 5: and that makes her want to shrink. But I think
Speaker 5: the side of her that wants to stand up for
Speaker 5: herself and will feel no shame is stronger.
Speaker 1: Saskia knows the shame isn't hers to carry. She wants
Speaker 1: to talk about what happened to her. That's why she's
Speaker 1: doing this podcast, dragging all this out into the light.
Speaker 1: Despite how upsetting it can feel, she's being brave. For
Speaker 1: their part, her friends are starting to do the same.
Speaker 1: They're showing up for Saskia and talking more about what
Speaker 1: happened on the podcast, but even more so with each other.
Speaker 2: I can't tell you how many good tears I've cried
Speaker 2: realizing how much people care about me. It's nice, like
Speaker 2: I'm you know, I'm growing, and also I think my
Speaker 2: relationships have kind of transformed.
Speaker 1: Also, she's finding new stability. But the people who've been
Speaker 1: there all along. On our last night in Maryland, Saskett
Speaker 1: invited all her people over for a party. In the
Speaker 1: days before, she almost canceled the whole thing. It had
Speaker 1: just been a full week of interviews.
Speaker 2: I was so anxious about doing a good job in
Speaker 2: telling my story that my nervous system was just in
Speaker 2: overdrive and it felt like too much to go out
Speaker 2: or entertain.
Speaker 1: We assured her she didn't need to throw a party
Speaker 1: on our account. Her people would understand too, but she
Speaker 1: wanted to do it.
Speaker 2: I want to actually enjoy life, and I don't feel
Speaker 2: like I always have to show up with a happy face.
Speaker 2: I can just be me.
Speaker 1: So she gathered everyone on her back porch, her siblings,
Speaker 1: her friends.
Speaker 5: I want to hear.
Speaker 3: I want to hear what she's saying.
Speaker 1: It was a tail end of summer, the sun was
Speaker 1: setting and the cicadas were in full swing. Everyone sat
Speaker 1: in a circle of Adirondack chairs, eating cake and trading
Speaker 1: funny stories from growing up.
Speaker 6: We heard Georgetown, so Bridget throw all of us down
Speaker 6: to Georgetown.
Speaker 1: I could tell it was a lot for Soskia. She
Speaker 1: looked tired and she couldn't seem to sit still in
Speaker 1: her chair. But in the midst of all of this,
Speaker 1: I heard something the day so we.
Speaker 6: Were like, oh, so, then we had to back down again.
Speaker 1: And Soskia is laugh. It was mentioned a lot in
Speaker 1: interviews with her friends and family. But this was the
Speaker 1: first time we really heard it for ourselves, and throughout
Speaker 1: the night we kept hearing it. There's no clean end
Speaker 1: to the journey Saskia is on. She'll never reach a
Speaker 1: point when she's fully healed. No one does after betrayal.
Speaker 1: I think healing is a series of smaller winds. Maybe
Speaker 1: there will come a day when she'll wake up without
Speaker 1: her trauma on her mind. Maybe she'll call her sister
Speaker 1: or a friend the next time she feels alone. But
Speaker 1: for now, just having moments like this again, when she
Speaker 1: can just be with the people that love her and laugh,
Speaker 1: that's enough.
Speaker 2: Seven years ago, I really thought that my life was over.
Speaker 2: I felt humiliated, and I still think that that's true.
Speaker 2: Today I feel exposed, but that, to me is not
Speaker 2: as important as exposing somebody who thought that they could
Speaker 2: just operate in the dark for a while. He pulled
Speaker 2: me into that darkness, and I refuse to live there.
Speaker 1: For resources on sexual violence, visit rain dot org slash betrayal.
Speaker 1: That's r ai n N dot org slash betrayal. You
Speaker 1: can also get free confidential twenty four seven support through
Speaker 1: Rain's National Sexual Assault Hotline. Just text hope to six
Speaker 1: four sixty seven three or call one eight hundred sixty
Speaker 1: five six. Hope you are not alone. If you would
Speaker 1: like to reach out to the Betrayal team or want
Speaker 1: to tell us your story, email us at Betrayalpod at
Speaker 1: gmail dot com. That is Betrayal at gmail dot com,
Speaker 1: or follow us on Instagram at betrayal Pod. To access
Speaker 1: additional content and to connect with the Betrayal community, join
Speaker 1: our substack at Betrayal dot substack dot com. We're grateful
Speaker 1: for your support. One way to show support is by
Speaker 1: subscribing to our show on Apple Podcasts. Don't forget to
Speaker 1: rate and review Betrayal. Five star reviews go a long way.
Speaker 1: A big thank you to all of our listeners. Betrayal
Speaker 1: is the production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass
Speaker 1: Entertainment Group, in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show is
Speaker 1: executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Fason, hosted and
Speaker 1: produced by me Andrea Gunning, written and produced by Caitlin Golden.
Speaker 1: Our supervising producer is Carrie Hartman. Our story editor is
Speaker 1: Monique Leboard. Also produced by Ben Fetterman. Associate producers are
Speaker 1: Olivia Hewitt and Leah Jablo, Production management by Kristin melcurritional
Speaker 1: support by Curry Richmond. Our iHeart team is Ali Perry
Speaker 1: and Jessica Crincheck. Audio editing by Tanner Robbins, with additional
Speaker 1: editing and mixing by Matt Delvecchio. Special thanks to Saskia,
Speaker 1: her friends and family, and special thanks to Will Pearson
Speaker 1: and Carrie Lieberman. The trial's theme is composed by Oliver Bains.
Speaker 3: Music library provided by
Speaker 1: My Music and For more podcasts from iHeart, visit the
Speaker 1: iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts,