WEBVTT - Waking Up | EP 10 | Saskia's Story 0:00:00.120 --> 0:00:03.840 Hi everyone, Andre here, I have some exciting news to share. 0:00:04.559 --> 0:00:09.040 ABC has turned Betrayal Weekly into an eight episode anthology, 0:00:09.520 --> 0:00:12.799 which means each episode features one of your favorite Betrayal 0:00:12.800 --> 0:00:16.480 Weekly stories. You'll get to see the people involved, hear 0:00:16.520 --> 0:00:19.840 from people who have never spoken before, and actually see 0:00:19.840 --> 0:00:23.479 where the story took place. We are so proud and 0:00:23.560 --> 0:00:27.080 excited to share it with you all. It's called Betrayal, 0:00:27.240 --> 0:00:30.800 Secrets and Lies and you can watch it every Sunday 0:00:31.000 --> 0:00:35.440 at ten pm Eastern Standard Time, nine pm Central. Please 0:00:35.520 --> 0:00:41.600 check it out. Throughout the years we've worked on this show, 0:00:41.880 --> 0:00:44.599 our team has talked to hundreds of people who've been 0:00:44.640 --> 0:00:48.280 through some kind of betrayal. Some of their stories are 0:00:48.320 --> 0:00:53.000 about abuse left undiscovered or unchecked for years. Others are 0:00:53.040 --> 0:00:57.480 about financial crimes or secret identities. But across all of 0:00:57.520 --> 0:01:01.440 these stories there are similarities, like in the way people 0:01:01.480 --> 0:01:04.720 talk about the aftermath and the moment everything changed. 0:01:05.080 --> 0:01:08.560 Our life blew up. On April eleventh, April twenty twenty 0:01:08.600 --> 0:01:12.640 two is when D Day happened and everything this blew up. 0:01:12.920 --> 0:01:16.440 All of this blew off our life, our kids' lives, 0:01:16.480 --> 0:01:17.280 our community. 0:01:17.520 --> 0:01:19.960 He completely ruined my family. 0:01:21.840 --> 0:01:25.399 For so many people, a Betrayal is an ending, a 0:01:25.480 --> 0:01:28.839 death of the life they knew. I often get asked 0:01:28.880 --> 0:01:32.120 if it's depressing working on stories like this, day in, 0:01:32.520 --> 0:01:35.160 day out, and the truth is a lot of the 0:01:35.200 --> 0:01:39.080 time it's the opposite, because as much as these are 0:01:39.120 --> 0:01:43.720 stories about the moment of destruction, they're also about what 0:01:43.840 --> 0:01:48.600 happens after that moment, help people get up the next day, 0:01:49.280 --> 0:01:53.480 how they rebuild after the smoke clears. I don't think 0:01:53.480 --> 0:01:58.880 it's an exaggeration to say a bomb dropped on Saskia's life, 0:01:59.120 --> 0:02:04.720 and yet today, seven years after her discovery, she's still standing. 0:02:06.960 --> 0:02:10.680 I think it would surprise him to see how much 0:02:10.960 --> 0:02:16.120 stronger I've gotten, even since his attempt to totally destroy me. 0:02:18.440 --> 0:02:22.960 I was not going to be just a dispensable person, 0:02:23.040 --> 0:02:25.600 someone that you can use and abuse and then discard. 0:02:26.600 --> 0:02:30.399 His focus was on my weaknesses and he didn't realize 0:02:30.600 --> 0:02:46.720 how strong I am. 0:02:47.000 --> 0:02:51.160 I'm Andrea Gunning and this is Betrayal, Season five, episode ten, 0:02:52.120 --> 0:02:59.680 Waking Up. Before we talk about where Saska is today, 0:03:00.360 --> 0:03:02.960 there's something I want to share. It's a bit of 0:03:02.960 --> 0:03:05.679 a left turn, but it has a lot to do 0:03:05.760 --> 0:03:08.560 with why I do this work and why I felt 0:03:08.639 --> 0:03:14.040 drawn to Saskia's story In college, I was raped. At 0:03:14.040 --> 0:03:16.640 the time, I was going through a really bad depression, 0:03:17.320 --> 0:03:20.040 and much in the same way that Saskia did, I 0:03:20.120 --> 0:03:23.800 drank to cope. One night, when I was drunk, a 0:03:23.880 --> 0:03:28.440 person who I considered a friend assaulted me. It wasn't 0:03:28.520 --> 0:03:31.040 until the next day, when I woke up that I 0:03:31.120 --> 0:03:36.120 knew something had happened. For years, I blamed myself. Maybe 0:03:36.120 --> 0:03:39.680 I let him on, Maybe I deserved it. It's a 0:03:39.720 --> 0:03:43.440 feeling a lot of victims of sexual violence experience, and 0:03:43.560 --> 0:03:46.520 like a lot of victims, those feelings kept me silent 0:03:46.600 --> 0:03:51.240 for a long time. I questioned myself and my understanding 0:03:51.360 --> 0:03:56.200 of what I experienced. But that wasn't the case for Saskia. 0:03:57.520 --> 0:03:59.560 As soon as she found out what Mike did to her, 0:04:00.080 --> 0:04:01.360 she saw the truth clearly. 0:04:02.360 --> 0:04:04.200 He said, I guess we're both a little bit crazy. 0:04:04.920 --> 0:04:08.880 I said, no, no, I have mental health issues. You're 0:04:08.920 --> 0:04:10.800 a predator and you're a monster. 0:04:12.120 --> 0:04:15.120 This is something that's always struck me about Saskia's story, 0:04:15.760 --> 0:04:20.520 and it's actually pretty rare. Immediately she knew the gravity 0:04:20.600 --> 0:04:23.719 of what Mike had done. She went to the authorities 0:04:24.080 --> 0:04:28.320 to protect herself and to keep others safe. And then 0:04:28.760 --> 0:04:31.560 she took the stand and stood up to him. 0:04:31.800 --> 0:04:34.800 You're a dangerous person who prays on vulnerable and trusting people. 0:04:35.520 --> 0:04:39.760 You're sexual predator, Michael loving Good. You do have this 0:04:40.000 --> 0:04:44.919 inner strength that comes out at times. 0:04:45.880 --> 0:04:48.840 That's Carrie Hartman, one of Betrayal's producers. 0:04:49.240 --> 0:04:50.520 Where did that come from? 0:04:50.960 --> 0:04:51.400 I don't know. 0:04:53.160 --> 0:04:57.400 I really don't know wherever it came from. I've always 0:04:57.480 --> 0:05:01.520 admired that strength in Saskia, and back in those early 0:05:01.640 --> 0:05:05.599 days after her discovery, her bravery was clear to everyone 0:05:05.680 --> 0:05:10.479 around her. It looked like reporting the crime, taking the stand, 0:05:11.080 --> 0:05:14.800 seeing her divorce trial through, no matter how many insults 0:05:14.800 --> 0:05:18.080 she had to face. But there's more than one way 0:05:18.120 --> 0:05:21.840 to be brave. This came up with Ashley Enderfirth, the 0:05:21.880 --> 0:05:26.480 original prosecutor on Soaski's case, at the end of our interview, 0:05:26.800 --> 0:05:29.760 just before we stopped recording, there was one last thing 0:05:29.839 --> 0:05:31.680 Ashley wanted to say. 0:05:31.760 --> 0:05:34.279 We talked about how brave Soaskia is to have come 0:05:34.320 --> 0:05:37.000 forward and to have been willing to go through this process. 0:05:37.800 --> 0:05:43.360 But when you experience something like this, bravery takes different forms. 0:05:43.880 --> 0:05:49.920 While it is undoubtedly brave to come forward, sometimes bravery 0:05:50.000 --> 0:05:53.240 is just getting up the next morning and living your life. 0:05:53.560 --> 0:05:56.480 This was something I needed to hear and I imagine 0:05:56.560 --> 0:05:59.839 some listeners out there need to hear it too. Bravery 0:05:59.920 --> 0:06:04.080 isn't always about pursuing criminal action. I had to understand 0:06:04.120 --> 0:06:07.279 that after what happened to me, keeping my grades up, 0:06:07.680 --> 0:06:11.000 graduating and just getting on with my life was the 0:06:11.040 --> 0:06:16.400 bravest version of myself. And today that form of bravery 0:06:16.680 --> 0:06:18.320 is what Saskia is practicing too. 0:06:19.680 --> 0:06:26.320 Kitties, Chicky, the Rito, Hippie, Pumpkin. 0:06:27.400 --> 0:06:31.479 The days of pursuing justice are now behind her. These days, 0:06:31.520 --> 0:06:34.640 for Saskia, bravery looks like getting out of bed and 0:06:34.680 --> 0:06:39.080 starting her day, feeding her pets, going to work, taking 0:06:39.120 --> 0:06:39.560 a walk. 0:06:40.960 --> 0:06:46.280 After the discovery, I wasn't able to do anything. I 0:06:46.360 --> 0:06:53.279 wasn't able to work. I was constantly on hyper alert. 0:06:53.600 --> 0:06:55.920 It really felt like this is it and that there's 0:06:55.960 --> 0:06:57.120 no light at the end of the tunnel. 0:06:57.960 --> 0:07:02.200 Nowadays, she's not only back to normal routine, she's creating 0:07:02.240 --> 0:07:05.440 that routine for herself for the first time in her 0:07:05.480 --> 0:07:06.120 adult life. 0:07:07.080 --> 0:07:10.280 Seven years ago, I was like a baby just starting out, 0:07:10.320 --> 0:07:13.840 just learning to crawl, and learning to crawl was learning 0:07:14.160 --> 0:07:18.040 what I would choose to do on my own. I 0:07:18.080 --> 0:07:21.200 had never really been single until a few years ago, 0:07:21.680 --> 0:07:24.520 and just learning when I'm by myself, what do I 0:07:24.680 --> 0:07:26.800 choose to do? What do I choose to eat, what 0:07:26.840 --> 0:07:32.000 do I choose to watch? And to then incorporate that 0:07:32.160 --> 0:07:35.720 into who I am. For me to get my agency 0:07:35.800 --> 0:07:38.080 back and be able to do what is good for 0:07:38.200 --> 0:07:41.480 me is where my power lies now. 0:07:42.800 --> 0:07:47.000 Before everything happened, everyone thought Saskia and needed someone like 0:07:47.080 --> 0:07:50.040 Mike to save her. Here's her sister, Marisa. 0:07:50.320 --> 0:07:52.520 I've always viewed her as my baby sister, as a 0:07:52.600 --> 0:07:57.320 very strong person, but somebody who's vulnerable, and he gave 0:07:57.400 --> 0:08:00.200 her a sense of stability. 0:08:01.320 --> 0:08:06.000 Today Marisa sees all that Saskia is capable of on 0:08:06.040 --> 0:08:06.480 her own. 0:08:07.080 --> 0:08:11.960 She's standing alone, she's doing life, She's creating her own stability. 0:08:12.000 --> 0:08:15.400 Now, there's been so much change in the right direction. 0:08:16.240 --> 0:08:18.679 But there's a flip side to all this growth. 0:08:20.520 --> 0:08:26.000 I feel like I've started spending most of my time alone. 0:08:27.200 --> 0:08:30.040 It's not just that Saskia is taking time for herself. 0:08:30.880 --> 0:08:32.360 As Marisa told us. 0:08:32.840 --> 0:08:36.920 I would say that she socially isolates more so than 0:08:36.960 --> 0:08:37.680 she ever did. 0:08:38.960 --> 0:08:42.439 Saskia has her kids, but they're older now and most 0:08:42.480 --> 0:08:44.400 of the time they're out of the house or with 0:08:44.480 --> 0:08:47.760 their dad. She works from home and stays there through 0:08:47.800 --> 0:08:51.680 the evening with her pets to keep her company. Since 0:08:51.760 --> 0:08:55.280 finding out about Mike's crimes, her world's gotten a lot smaller. 0:08:56.559 --> 0:08:59.920 I was so devastated and shocked by everything that how 0:09:00.120 --> 0:09:01.920 and that I had no choice but to start to 0:09:01.920 --> 0:09:06.840 protect myself a little bit. And that's something that is empowering, 0:09:07.000 --> 0:09:11.200 right to know that I can make my own choices 0:09:11.440 --> 0:09:14.600 and I can stay as safe as I need to 0:09:14.720 --> 0:09:15.200 or want to. 0:09:16.240 --> 0:09:19.520 But by putting up these walls, she's not only protecting 0:09:19.520 --> 0:09:24.559 herself against bad people, she's isolating herself from friends and family. 0:09:25.160 --> 0:09:26.360 Here's Marisa again. 0:09:26.760 --> 0:09:30.160 She's been stuck in that fight mode for so long. 0:09:31.040 --> 0:09:35.600 I want her to be open to the good in people, 0:09:36.559 --> 0:09:39.719 and I want her to know what that feels like, 0:09:40.760 --> 0:09:44.400 and to know that he didn't take it from her. 0:09:45.200 --> 0:09:47.440 When my reporting team and I went to Maryland to 0:09:47.440 --> 0:09:51.800 meet Saskia, we noticed those walls too. We'd spent months 0:09:51.840 --> 0:09:55.360 talking to her in advance, explaining the production process and 0:09:55.400 --> 0:09:59.400 what to expect. She was fully on board in all 0:09:59.440 --> 0:10:03.079 of her inner views. She was open, but whenever we 0:10:03.080 --> 0:10:06.880 weren't recording, the walls went back up in a way 0:10:07.040 --> 0:10:12.000 I'd never encountered before with other stories. For instance, during 0:10:12.000 --> 0:10:15.520 our reporting trips, we usually take our storytellers out to 0:10:15.559 --> 0:10:19.000 dinner with our team. Saski was the first person I've 0:10:19.000 --> 0:10:22.360 worked with who didn't really want to go. That was 0:10:22.360 --> 0:10:25.000 a real learning moment for me, the idea that going 0:10:25.080 --> 0:10:28.480 out to dinner with us could be hard it was. 0:10:29.880 --> 0:10:34.960 I stopped doing those things for a long time. It's 0:10:35.080 --> 0:10:40.360 been really hard for me to get back out there. 0:10:42.120 --> 0:10:45.560 I don't think that I can ever trust anybody. I 0:10:45.600 --> 0:10:49.360 don't think that I could ever fully be confident that 0:10:50.120 --> 0:10:55.320 someone wasn't misleading me or manipulating me because I was 0:10:55.400 --> 0:10:57.760 so sure that he was a good person and that 0:10:59.160 --> 0:11:03.079 you love me. How can I ever get to the 0:11:03.120 --> 0:11:06.120 point where I truly don't fear that? 0:11:07.840 --> 0:11:11.319 On this show, we're asking people who've experienced a traumatic 0:11:11.320 --> 0:11:15.240 betrayal to trust us with their story. It always takes 0:11:15.320 --> 0:11:18.760 months of building rapport to get to that point. By 0:11:18.800 --> 0:11:21.560 the time we got to Maryland, Saskia was ready to 0:11:21.559 --> 0:11:24.679 share her story, but we questioned if she was ready 0:11:24.720 --> 0:11:27.880 to really put herself out there with this show. So 0:11:27.920 --> 0:11:30.920 I asked her about that. I said, to you, we 0:11:31.000 --> 0:11:31.920 don't have to do this. 0:11:32.480 --> 0:11:33.720 We don't have to go forward with this. 0:11:34.240 --> 0:11:36.760 You can always circle back when you are ready. How 0:11:36.800 --> 0:11:37.640 did that occur for you? 0:11:38.440 --> 0:11:42.480 It made me feel a little bit vulnerable, like they're 0:11:42.520 --> 0:11:45.200 seeing how hard this is for me, Like what am 0:11:45.240 --> 0:11:48.120 I doing? This is so difficult. 0:11:49.360 --> 0:11:53.880 Part of her thought about ending the whole project right there. Instead, 0:11:54.200 --> 0:11:57.000 she made a choice, the choice to keep going. 0:11:57.400 --> 0:11:59.720 I feel like this was the journey that was put 0:11:59.760 --> 0:12:03.560 in for me and I was gonna see it through, 0:12:04.000 --> 0:12:06.080 regardless of how difficult it was. 0:12:28.920 --> 0:12:32.240 For years, Saskia has received support from a psychiatrist and 0:12:32.360 --> 0:12:36.719 other mental health providers, but in choosing to do this podcast, 0:12:37.080 --> 0:12:40.000 we wanted to ensure she had extra support, so we 0:12:40.080 --> 0:12:41.720 connected her with Jessica Beaum. 0:12:42.160 --> 0:12:46.320 I'm a psychotherapist, a licensed mental health counselor. I'm an 0:12:46.360 --> 0:12:50.160 author of two books, Anxiously Attached and Safe. 0:12:50.720 --> 0:12:53.000 If you've been listening to our show for a while, 0:12:53.320 --> 0:12:56.600 you might recognize jess from season two where she worked 0:12:56.640 --> 0:12:58.200 with our subject, Ashley Linton. 0:12:58.760 --> 0:13:03.920 I studied interpersonal neural biology, and that is a study 0:13:03.920 --> 0:13:07.720 of how we form as infants and young beings in 0:13:07.840 --> 0:13:11.880 relationship with others. That's how we form our attachment patterns, 0:13:12.280 --> 0:13:14.520 and I work a lot with my clients on getting 0:13:14.520 --> 0:13:16.680 into their body and starting to be with their nervous 0:13:16.679 --> 0:13:19.400 system and starting to connect all those dots. 0:13:20.080 --> 0:13:24.480 Following our reporting trip, Jess and Saskia started meeting weekly. 0:13:24.720 --> 0:13:26.920 And I'm going to continue working with her to the 0:13:26.960 --> 0:13:31.240 other side of this whenever she gets to the other side. 0:13:31.480 --> 0:13:34.840 Often, Jess and Saskia talked about emotions that came up 0:13:34.880 --> 0:13:38.480 throughout the production process. It took strength to report the 0:13:38.520 --> 0:13:42.040 crime and get through those early days, but in many 0:13:42.080 --> 0:13:45.760 ways that strength was a reflex. She saw no other 0:13:45.840 --> 0:13:49.840 path than to fight this choice, to revisit what happened 0:13:49.840 --> 0:13:52.960 to her. To trust other people with her story has 0:13:53.040 --> 0:14:00.000 demanded a different kind of strength. Jess and Saskia agreed 0:14:00.160 --> 0:14:03.640 to record a few of their sessions. Saskia listened back 0:14:03.679 --> 0:14:07.080 to these recordings, and now she wants other people to 0:14:07.120 --> 0:14:10.640 hear them too, in the hopes that her breakthroughs might 0:14:10.760 --> 0:14:11.800 help somebody else. 0:14:13.240 --> 0:14:16.600 In the beginning, when I met with the producers, it 0:14:16.679 --> 0:14:19.760 felt profound, but it also was so scary and so 0:14:19.840 --> 0:14:22.240 uncomfortable that I honestly was like a little kid, like 0:14:22.240 --> 0:14:25.720 I hid my face in my shirt because it felt 0:14:25.760 --> 0:14:33.680 so strange receiving compassion and empathy and sympathy about what 0:14:35.080 --> 0:14:35.800 Mike did. 0:14:35.640 --> 0:14:38.960 To me, and you had to start to recognize how 0:14:38.960 --> 0:14:39.600 bad it was. 0:14:40.560 --> 0:14:44.400 Yeah, how hard that was. I never felt important enough 0:14:44.440 --> 0:14:48.320 to really do the deep diving into me and my 0:14:48.400 --> 0:14:52.720 story in my life. It feels wrong to me because 0:14:52.720 --> 0:14:54.040 I'm not used to doing that. 0:14:54.480 --> 0:14:55.960 And we have to get in touch with all the 0:14:55.960 --> 0:14:57.040 pain to do that. 0:14:57.800 --> 0:14:59.920 Yeah, that's probably what makes me feel like I want. 0:14:59.760 --> 0:15:00.120 To rite one. 0:15:02.160 --> 0:15:05.920 I think that being vulnerable like this and feeling it, 0:15:06.320 --> 0:15:07.800 part of you wants to do the work, and the 0:15:07.840 --> 0:15:10.440 part of you is so uncomfortable with showing up for it. 0:15:10.520 --> 0:15:13.040 And I think that's actually a very normal part of 0:15:13.080 --> 0:15:16.760 this experience, or the re experiencing of it all. 0:15:18.080 --> 0:15:23.200 I totally agree. On Sunday night, we had a really 0:15:23.840 --> 0:15:28.480 difficult recording session for the podcast. I was talking to. 0:15:28.520 --> 0:15:32.200 Kitln Caitlyn is one of our producers. 0:15:31.720 --> 0:15:34.480 And she saw that I visibly got tearful and then 0:15:34.520 --> 0:15:40.480 started crying. And Caitlyn's response, of course, was empathy and like, 0:15:40.800 --> 0:15:42.520 if this is too much for you, let's stop, And 0:15:43.440 --> 0:15:46.400 I said no, like I need to feel these feelings. 0:15:47.680 --> 0:15:52.480 It's hard, but I know that this is necessary. 0:15:52.560 --> 0:15:58.000 It's harder before it gets easier. Yep, that's what I'm finding, 0:15:58.720 --> 0:16:01.960 And you know, Soski, some people don't have the capacity. 0:16:02.520 --> 0:16:04.680 It takes a lot to slow down and feel. 0:16:05.480 --> 0:16:09.880 Yeah, it's been really hard a few years. I'm proud 0:16:09.880 --> 0:16:13.760 of myself for taking the time to be by myself 0:16:13.840 --> 0:16:18.440 and come to some realizations. But it's a scary thing 0:16:18.480 --> 0:16:22.120 to do at forty seven years old. I wish that 0:16:22.160 --> 0:16:24.840 it would have happened to that earlier for me, so 0:16:24.880 --> 0:16:27.560 I could have avoided some of these consequences. 0:16:28.520 --> 0:16:30.840 I don't know how many clients I have that are 0:16:30.880 --> 0:16:33.640 like forty or fifty or fifty five who say the 0:16:33.680 --> 0:16:36.560 same thing, like I wish I could have done this sooner. 0:16:37.560 --> 0:16:40.240 I remember asking my mentor once when I got out 0:16:40.240 --> 0:16:42.640 of a really unhealthy relationship, I said, did I need 0:16:42.680 --> 0:16:46.520 to go through this pretty traumatic relationship to have this 0:16:46.720 --> 0:16:51.720 healing process occur? Like? Was there another path? Sometimes we're 0:16:51.760 --> 0:16:54.200 just not ready to go there until things get bad 0:16:54.280 --> 0:16:55.840 enough or we need a wake up call. 0:16:56.520 --> 0:16:59.240 Yeah, right, we have no choice but to slow down 0:16:59.360 --> 0:17:01.760 or stop and deal with things. 0:17:03.320 --> 0:17:07.000 In slowing down, Saskia is not only facing these emotions 0:17:07.040 --> 0:17:10.360 coming up through the podcast or sitting with her trauma 0:17:10.440 --> 0:17:15.199 from Mike. She's going back further to her childhood to 0:17:15.400 --> 0:17:20.080 understand why she gravitated towards someone like Mike and to 0:17:20.160 --> 0:17:24.840 try to break that pattern going forward. Remember, Saskia grew 0:17:24.920 --> 0:17:28.199 up as the youngest of four. Her father struggled with 0:17:28.320 --> 0:17:31.960 mental illness, and her mom was busy keeping the family afloat. 0:17:32.520 --> 0:17:35.520 It had a real impact on her. She always had 0:17:35.520 --> 0:17:39.639 a lot of friends, but on the inside, I still. 0:17:39.520 --> 0:17:45.600 Felt so alone and like a freak. In school, I 0:17:45.720 --> 0:17:52.040 remember crying in the bathrooms and not really knowing why. 0:17:54.160 --> 0:17:58.880 Looking back, I was really struggling with depression and anxiety. 0:18:00.160 --> 0:18:02.359 A big part of why she turned to alcohol. 0:18:02.760 --> 0:18:07.200 I remember the first time getting drunk and how good 0:18:07.200 --> 0:18:10.320 it felt. It helped me cope with a lot of 0:18:10.359 --> 0:18:14.480 things that I hadn't dealt with yet, were under the surface, 0:18:15.359 --> 0:18:16.520 stuff from my childhood. 0:18:17.040 --> 0:18:20.320 Doesn't it make sense? That's part of the human desires. 0:18:20.359 --> 0:18:23.919 We go towards what feels good, what releases chemicals, what 0:18:23.960 --> 0:18:27.120 feels a sense of belonging, And you weren't getting any 0:18:27.119 --> 0:18:28.920 of that at home, right. 0:18:30.680 --> 0:18:34.520 Maybe that's what I did in my relationships too. I 0:18:34.560 --> 0:18:38.280 didn't get what I needed emotionally, and so that's always 0:18:38.320 --> 0:18:42.919 what I was searching for, that feeling sure Mike was 0:18:43.040 --> 0:18:48.639 really the first person that I thought actually loved me 0:18:48.760 --> 0:18:53.000 and was safe. It would be awful even if it 0:18:53.160 --> 0:18:56.240 was a stranger who did this to me or someone 0:18:56.720 --> 0:18:59.919 I had just met, but the fact that this was 0:19:00.080 --> 0:19:03.879 my partner for seven years. 0:19:02.480 --> 0:19:04.400 Supposed to be the safest person to you. 0:19:05.680 --> 0:19:08.800 I mean, he was my best friend. With him, I 0:19:09.000 --> 0:19:14.679 felt really cared for, and I've never felt that before 0:19:14.800 --> 0:19:17.199 in my life. 0:19:17.400 --> 0:19:21.119 When you grow up with childhood neglect and trauma, that 0:19:21.359 --> 0:19:24.399 very young part of you is looking to be taken 0:19:24.480 --> 0:19:29.520 care of, yeah, and attracted to someone who appears safe, 0:19:30.160 --> 0:19:32.560 who appears like they're going to take care of that 0:19:32.600 --> 0:19:36.280 little girl, and it ends up becoming a nightmare. 0:19:37.600 --> 0:19:37.760 Right. 0:19:38.680 --> 0:19:42.280 Mike presented as someone different, He presented as someone safer, 0:19:43.280 --> 0:19:47.359 He presented as not your normal type. And it's almost 0:19:47.440 --> 0:19:51.080 like a fish on a hook. Your inner child is 0:19:51.119 --> 0:19:55.040 projecting the perfect parent onto this person. This is going 0:19:55.119 --> 0:19:58.600 to be the solution, because now this person is safe, 0:19:58.680 --> 0:20:01.680 They're meeting all your needs. And the truth is your 0:20:01.760 --> 0:20:04.639 attachment needs were still underneath the surface. 0:20:05.359 --> 0:20:08.640 One hundred percent. I mean, you've helped me realize that 0:20:09.560 --> 0:20:15.760 I was seeking validation and feeling yeah taken care of. 0:20:16.359 --> 0:20:20.320 And he was in a position of power because he 0:20:20.400 --> 0:20:21.920 met those needs so well. 0:20:21.960 --> 0:20:27.000 For you, looking at how I got to this place 0:20:27.040 --> 0:20:32.000 has been really important because I don't need saving. 0:20:33.560 --> 0:20:36.639 For the first time in her life, Saskia is not 0:20:36.760 --> 0:20:41.479 dating through this work in therapy, She's breaking patterns, sitting 0:20:41.480 --> 0:20:44.199 with her pain, putting herself first. 0:20:44.720 --> 0:20:48.199 I feel like I'm giving myself as much space and 0:20:48.240 --> 0:20:52.040 time as I need to heal. I don't have time 0:20:52.160 --> 0:20:56.520 or energy to prioritize somebody else over me right now, 0:20:57.040 --> 0:21:00.119 and that's when the healing has really started. I feel 0:21:00.119 --> 0:21:03.200 like I need to be able to trust myself before 0:21:03.680 --> 0:21:06.439 I'll be able to trust anybody else. What I do 0:21:06.600 --> 0:21:09.520 know now is that I can do it on my own. 0:21:11.240 --> 0:21:14.560 If somebody makes me uncomfortable or somebody isn't concerned with 0:21:14.600 --> 0:21:17.760 my feelings, I can walk away and I can still 0:21:17.800 --> 0:21:20.480 be okay. I just wish it wasn't such a hard 0:21:20.560 --> 0:21:23.280 lesson for me to learn, but I don't think there 0:21:23.359 --> 0:21:27.280 was an easier one that would have hook you up 0:21:28.480 --> 0:21:29.120 ook me up. 0:21:49.840 --> 0:21:53.240 As I was listening to Saskia and Jess's last recorded session, 0:21:53.760 --> 0:21:57.520 I heard something that made me smile. Saska was looking 0:21:57.560 --> 0:22:00.199 back on the early days of working with us and 0:22:00.280 --> 0:22:02.160 how much has changed since then. 0:22:02.680 --> 0:22:07.480 I'm definitely a people pleaser. If other people like me, 0:22:08.359 --> 0:22:12.280 that makes me happy, and with this podcast, there was 0:22:12.280 --> 0:22:14.479 a lot of that. Like I didn't know what support 0:22:14.560 --> 0:22:18.000 to expect, so it was all very kind. 0:22:17.880 --> 0:22:22.720 Of scary, but slowly, through lots of interviews, check ins, 0:22:22.720 --> 0:22:27.959 and visits, our team earned Sask's trust. Today, our conversations 0:22:28.040 --> 0:22:30.320 are as much about what happened to her as they 0:22:30.400 --> 0:22:32.880 are about what shows we're watching. But our pets are 0:22:32.880 --> 0:22:36.720 doing good days and bad days at work. Saska's walls 0:22:36.720 --> 0:22:40.399 are down, and to me that's an honor. Are really 0:22:40.440 --> 0:22:43.000 the first new people Saske has let into her world 0:22:43.119 --> 0:22:44.040 in a long time. 0:22:44.520 --> 0:22:47.480 The support that I felt from working on this podcast, 0:22:48.040 --> 0:22:52.920 it's been something that I've never felt before, the empathy 0:22:52.920 --> 0:22:57.000 and the understanding. It's crazy how it happened, and I 0:22:57.000 --> 0:22:59.640 don't really believe in fate, but it was just what 0:22:59.680 --> 0:23:06.680 I need didn't to deal with it and heal and. 0:23:05.680 --> 0:23:09.680 Yeah, do all the hard work. I know it's a reexperiencing, 0:23:09.760 --> 0:23:12.120 but I think it's the re experiencing with the support 0:23:12.200 --> 0:23:13.240 that makes the difference. 0:23:14.440 --> 0:23:18.040 I totally agree. 0:23:18.400 --> 0:23:21.960 Once the project ends, we're not going anywhere, but just 0:23:22.040 --> 0:23:25.639 want Saska to take this experience of learning to trust 0:23:25.800 --> 0:23:30.000 us and translate it into trusting others again in her 0:23:30.040 --> 0:23:32.439 everyday life. 0:23:32.680 --> 0:23:36.320 The way to heal this, Saskia, is now through the 0:23:36.400 --> 0:23:40.600 work with me, but also other people who you can 0:23:40.640 --> 0:23:45.280 be vulnerable with, who see you, who hold this sadness 0:23:45.320 --> 0:23:49.159 with you. Instead of finding a new man and a 0:23:49.200 --> 0:23:52.160 new solution, we need to slow down and start to 0:23:52.280 --> 0:23:55.200 learn what's going on inside and be with our core wounds. 0:23:56.240 --> 0:23:59.520 And a way to break this pattern is to lean 0:23:59.560 --> 0:24:03.440 on other people who don't medicate the trauma, but can 0:24:03.520 --> 0:24:05.240 be with you in your pain. 0:24:05.720 --> 0:24:08.080 I do have people that I knew care about me. 0:24:09.040 --> 0:24:12.240 Who's one of those people my sister. 0:24:13.520 --> 0:24:15.560 I think I used to feel like she wanted to 0:24:15.560 --> 0:24:18.040 be there, but it was just one more thing in 0:24:18.080 --> 0:24:22.000 her life that she felt like she wanted to fix. 0:24:23.000 --> 0:24:24.920 Now she kind of asks like, do you just want 0:24:24.960 --> 0:24:27.359 me to be here? So listen. 0:24:28.800 --> 0:24:31.239 That is literally the only thing we need is we 0:24:31.440 --> 0:24:32.920 just need people to be with us. 0:24:35.080 --> 0:24:39.240 In addition to Marisa, Saskia has her friends, the ones 0:24:39.280 --> 0:24:42.879 you've heard from throughout the season, but it hasn't always 0:24:42.920 --> 0:24:44.560 felt easy to open up to them. 0:24:45.000 --> 0:24:46.879 I've always put a lot of pressure on myself not 0:24:46.960 --> 0:24:49.280 to show how much pain I'm in. 0:24:50.000 --> 0:24:54.200 I think there's a piece to trauma survivors where we 0:24:54.840 --> 0:24:58.439 are not used to people who accept us unconditionally and 0:24:58.960 --> 0:25:01.840 like us when we're messy and can be with all 0:25:01.880 --> 0:25:04.880 our parts, so we're like I have to perform. 0:25:05.359 --> 0:25:07.879 I would never reach out to a friend event I 0:25:07.880 --> 0:25:10.760 wouldn't answer my phone unless I was in a good mood. 0:25:11.359 --> 0:25:13.280 I would look internally and be like, how can I 0:25:13.280 --> 0:25:15.399 fix myself so I can be okay for other people. 0:25:16.119 --> 0:25:20.199 Before Mike, Saskio was the silly, bubbly one in her 0:25:20.240 --> 0:25:22.679 friend group no matter what she was going through on 0:25:22.720 --> 0:25:25.960 the inside. But after her discovery. 0:25:26.000 --> 0:25:28.760 There was no putting on a happy face. Everything went 0:25:28.840 --> 0:25:32.199 dark for me and being around people that just had 0:25:32.240 --> 0:25:37.199 normal lives or happy relationships or we're talking about I 0:25:37.240 --> 0:25:39.920 don't know what they bought at the store. It was 0:25:39.960 --> 0:25:47.639 easier for me to stay away. 0:25:45.800 --> 0:25:49.840