WEBVTT - Chicho and the Mermaid 0:00:03.080 --> 0:00:06.880 This is a production of Journalista podcast LLC and iHeartRadio. 0:00:08.039 --> 0:00:10.960 When the Nicaraguan port of Corinto was bombed in October, 0:00:11.240 --> 0:00:13.880 it was the Contrast who took the credit, but CBS 0:00:13.880 --> 0:00:16.320 News has learned it was Americans who led the raid. 0:00:16.720 --> 0:00:20.680 Military sources confirm it was Americans who took two boatloads 0:00:20.680 --> 0:00:23.800 of Honduran commandos from the Salvadoran coast to Corinto to 0:00:23.920 --> 0:00:27.680 place time bombs in the port, Americans from the CIA, 0:00:27.720 --> 0:00:31.560 and Americans from regular military service. Publicly, the Pentagon won't 0:00:31.600 --> 0:00:34.960 talk about those actions, and privately, the American military just 0:00:35.080 --> 0:00:39.040 keeps doing them. Jane Wallace, CBS News to Gusigalpa, Honduras. 0:00:43.040 --> 0:00:47.879 Welcome back to the Journalista podcasts. Cookie is becoming a 0:00:47.960 --> 0:00:51.840 rock star for CBS. But after the CIA is exposed 0:00:51.880 --> 0:00:55.800 mining harbors and blowing up ships in Nicaragua, folks back 0:00:55.800 --> 0:00:58.680 home in the United States are starting to wonder what 0:00:58.720 --> 0:01:00.600 in the hell are we doing in Central America. 0:01:01.160 --> 0:01:04.559 The success of communism in Central America poses the threat, 0:01:05.240 --> 0:01:08.240 but one hundred million people from Panama to the open 0:01:08.240 --> 0:01:10.600 border on Arshall could come under the control of pro 0:01:10.640 --> 0:01:11.600 Soviet regimes. 0:01:12.000 --> 0:01:14.840 President Reagan made his case to the American people, but 0:01:14.920 --> 0:01:19.240 Congress wasn't buying it. Democratic Senator Patrick Leahy called it stupid. 0:01:19.600 --> 0:01:24.400 Republican Senator Barry Goldwater said I'm pissed off. Former President 0:01:24.480 --> 0:01:29.320 Jimmy Carter called it disgraceful. Justin Wolfe, Tulane history professor, 0:01:29.520 --> 0:01:30.760 explains what happened next. 0:01:31.160 --> 0:01:34.000 In nineteen eighty two, there's an amendment put forward by 0:01:34.400 --> 0:01:38.800 Representative Boland to a Military Appropriations Act. It's a rider. 0:01:39.280 --> 0:01:41.640 The Democrats are in a weaker position. They don't have 0:01:41.680 --> 0:01:45.280 the votes to outright forbid any US funding for the 0:01:45.319 --> 0:01:48.560 Contras or US support for the Contras, but they're able 0:01:48.560 --> 0:01:51.240 to put in limits because it's a military bill that 0:01:51.280 --> 0:01:54.720 the Reagan administration desperately wants. Basically, they're not going to 0:01:54.840 --> 0:01:59.120 veto it. It's a unanimously passed military appropriations bill, but 0:01:59.160 --> 0:02:02.160 they're stuck with this. The language in the press, the 0:02:02.280 --> 0:02:05.800 language of US officials becomes more violent, more aggressive about 0:02:05.840 --> 0:02:10.360 the need to remove the Sananistas and the growing questions 0:02:10.400 --> 0:02:12.600 in the US, the growing anti war movement. But I 0:02:12.600 --> 0:02:17.000 think really importantly, the growing uncertainty that this will be 0:02:17.040 --> 0:02:21.240 another Vietnam. There's no appetite for US interventions there's no 0:02:21.320 --> 0:02:24.799 appetite for US involvement in a war that doesn't seem 0:02:24.880 --> 0:02:28.120 like our war. And so in eighty three and eighty four, 0:02:28.600 --> 0:02:31.280 the bowl And Amendment is expanded through a series of 0:02:31.440 --> 0:02:36.160 other amendments and laws that basically limit all funding and 0:02:36.320 --> 0:02:40.160 all overt and covert funding right including the CIA to 0:02:40.400 --> 0:02:43.239 the contrast. And so this places the Contras in a 0:02:43.280 --> 0:02:47.239 difficult position. They need supplies, they need new weapons, they 0:02:47.280 --> 0:02:51.000 need ammunition, they need you name it, they need the 0:02:51.000 --> 0:02:55.560 supplies of war. The Reagan administration, particularly members of Reagan's 0:02:55.600 --> 0:02:58.080 National Security Council, are trying to figure out how to 0:02:58.080 --> 0:03:01.280 get funding there that doesn't look like it's coming directly 0:03:01.320 --> 0:03:02.399 from the US. 0:03:03.080 --> 0:03:06.760 The Reagan administration decides to go rogue. They come up 0:03:06.800 --> 0:03:09.360 with a secret plan to go around the Bowland Amendments, 0:03:09.760 --> 0:03:12.440 the beginning of the Iran contrast story that would rock 0:03:12.520 --> 0:03:14.919 the world and become the biggest scandal of the eighties. 0:03:15.800 --> 0:03:21.079 In the meantime, Cookie is just doing work. She has 0:03:21.120 --> 0:03:24.160 a story for Ed Bradley at sixty minutes about one 0:03:24.160 --> 0:03:29.240 of the most badass women in Central American history. Did 0:03:29.280 --> 0:03:31.240 you ever do any big stories with some of those 0:03:31.360 --> 0:03:33.320 big sixty minutes people, did anyone come in and do 0:03:33.360 --> 0:03:33.720 a story? 0:03:33.720 --> 0:03:39.280 Oh, all the time. Don Hewett, you know he's the 0:03:39.320 --> 0:03:43.400 creator of sixty minutes. He was the most aggressive motherfucker 0:03:43.720 --> 0:03:46.560 to get a story. All of them were just dirty, 0:03:46.640 --> 0:03:52.280 old fucking men. I'll fit right in. Sixty minutes rolls 0:03:52.320 --> 0:03:55.200 on a whole different plane. It's what I used to 0:03:55.280 --> 0:03:58.960 call working with the big boys, the elite. Sixty Minutes 0:03:59.000 --> 0:04:02.320 wouldn't come in to just do day to day stories. 0:04:02.960 --> 0:04:06.720 I would have to come up with something extremely interesting, 0:04:07.200 --> 0:04:10.280 one of a kind for them to be interested. I 0:04:10.360 --> 0:04:13.840 was always communicating with them. I developed some very good 0:04:13.920 --> 0:04:18.440 contacts and friendships there. It's funny because Ed had a 0:04:18.440 --> 0:04:23.400 fixation and obsession with somebody that you also have, and 0:04:23.440 --> 0:04:29.720 that was with Nora Aga exactly. She was a lady 0:04:29.960 --> 0:04:33.480 that came from a well to do family and educated family. 0:04:34.000 --> 0:04:37.359 She was one of these rich kids that were in 0:04:37.440 --> 0:04:42.599 the underground for the San Denistas, way before anybody even knew. 0:04:42.880 --> 0:04:47.000 She was also a fighter, a warrior. You've seen pictures 0:04:47.000 --> 0:04:49.200 that you fell in love with with her in her 0:04:49.320 --> 0:04:53.040 uniform and always looking fabulous. 0:04:52.440 --> 0:04:54.120 Like a fabulous badass, like. 0:04:54.080 --> 0:04:58.200 A fabulous warrior. I called her others called her Matahari. 0:05:00.680 --> 0:05:02.719 At least is as good as that I like to 0:05:02.760 --> 0:05:05.000 hear it, or maybe it's too bad. 0:05:04.800 --> 0:05:05.520 For me to hear it. 0:05:05.600 --> 0:05:08.880 No, no, no, oh, poor friend, Dubrey. 0:05:08.920 --> 0:05:10.560 Says that you are spy. 0:05:11.600 --> 0:05:14.600 That was the legendary movie star Greta Garbo from the 0:05:14.720 --> 0:05:19.599 nineteen thirty one film Matahari, who is the real Matahari, 0:05:21.480 --> 0:05:24.280 one of the world's most notorious spies, known for her 0:05:24.320 --> 0:05:30.440 beauty and seductive charms. Her real name was Margaretha Gertruda MacLeod, 0:05:30.720 --> 0:05:33.479 a Dutch exotic dancer who was convicted of being a 0:05:33.560 --> 0:05:37.680 spy for Germany during World War One. Before the war, 0:05:37.760 --> 0:05:40.360 she had performed as Matahari several times for the Crown 0:05:40.400 --> 0:05:43.760 Prince Wilhelm, eldest son of Kaiser Wilhelm the Second, who 0:05:43.839 --> 0:05:46.960 was the Emperor of Germany. She was recruited by France 0:05:47.080 --> 0:05:49.919 to seduce the Crown Prince to steal military secrets they 0:05:49.920 --> 0:05:53.119 could use in the war. That didn't work out too well. 0:05:53.680 --> 0:05:56.600 She did seduce him, but ended up changing sides and 0:05:56.640 --> 0:06:00.000 spying for the Germans. She was eventually captured and executed 0:06:00.160 --> 0:06:09.960 by firing squad. She was the original fem fatale. She 0:06:10.080 --> 0:06:13.400 inspired dozens of books, stage plays, TV shows, and films, 0:06:13.839 --> 0:06:16.159 as recently as twenty twenty one as a character in 0:06:16.320 --> 0:06:19.000 The Kingsman, which grossed over one hundred and twenty five 0:06:19.000 --> 0:06:22.680 million dollars at the box office. So, calling Nora Astorga 0:06:22.720 --> 0:06:26.159 the Madihari of Nicaragua was both a compliment and a curse, 0:06:26.560 --> 0:06:28.920 depending on who you listened to. But it was a 0:06:28.960 --> 0:06:31.480 moniker that would follow her for the rest of her life. 0:06:33.720 --> 0:06:38.640 She was Madahari because of who she was in society. 0:06:39.240 --> 0:06:42.280 She could get in and out of things and get 0:06:42.320 --> 0:06:47.280 information for the underground. So a spy a spy, yes. 0:06:47.720 --> 0:06:51.520 What put her on the map was before any of this, 0:06:51.800 --> 0:06:55.800 before the Civil War, before the revolution, before any of 0:06:55.839 --> 0:06:59.920 those things, when the Sandinistas were still very much under 0:07:00.560 --> 0:07:03.920 Obviously the Samosa people knew about them and tried at 0:07:03.960 --> 0:07:08.480 every point to crush them. The plan was to kidnap 0:07:08.560 --> 0:07:12.280 a Sumosa general, hold him hostage, hold him for ransom, 0:07:12.400 --> 0:07:15.240 get some money out of it. I'm not quite sure, 0:07:15.280 --> 0:07:18.559 but I don't think their intention was to kill this guy. 0:07:18.800 --> 0:07:20.120 What was his name is? 0:07:20.240 --> 0:07:21.400 Vega? 0:07:22.160 --> 0:07:26.080 Perez Vega was deputy commander of Anastasio Simosa's National guard 0:07:26.560 --> 0:07:30.240 considered one of the most brutal generals in Nicaragua, responsible 0:07:30.280 --> 0:07:33.040 for the torture and murder of hundreds of Nicaraguans. He 0:07:33.200 --> 0:07:36.920 was also a womanizer and went after the women he wanted, 0:07:36.920 --> 0:07:40.040 for better or worse, whenever he felt like it. He 0:07:40.080 --> 0:07:43.760 was a really bad man. His nickname the dog. 0:07:44.640 --> 0:07:46.920 He actually grew up with my mother, and he had 0:07:46.960 --> 0:07:50.920 a different nickname, remolacha, which means beat because he would 0:07:50.960 --> 0:07:54.520 get very red in the face. So your nickname that 0:07:54.640 --> 0:07:56.840 you discovered came years later. 0:07:56.680 --> 0:07:58.640 And the dog in Spanish is at pedro. 0:07:59.520 --> 0:07:59.720 Yeah. 0:07:59.800 --> 0:08:04.840 Yeah. Well, so Nora was with the group that kidnapped him. 0:08:04.840 --> 0:08:08.440 It was herself and two others, and she used her 0:08:08.600 --> 0:08:12.480 womanly whiles to set him up and hold him hostage. 0:08:13.040 --> 0:08:15.239 Nora was a lawyer at the time and it crossed 0:08:15.360 --> 0:08:18.600 Vegas path in the normal course of business. He decided 0:08:18.680 --> 0:08:21.360 he wanted her, not what she wanted, but it created 0:08:21.400 --> 0:08:24.960 an opportunity. This is Nora Astorga in her own words. 0:08:25.920 --> 0:08:28.520 The plan was to make a date for him to 0:08:28.600 --> 0:08:30.760 come to my house. In the house, there would be 0:08:30.880 --> 0:08:34.480 three compagnos, one in a big closet that opened into 0:08:34.520 --> 0:08:38.120 the main room, another in the room opposite and another 0:08:38.200 --> 0:08:41.320 in a very small room. We had a signal. I 0:08:41.520 --> 0:08:45.720 was to disarm him while he suspected nothing. I would 0:08:45.720 --> 0:08:50.080 then have him totally defenseless and would hold him well. 0:08:50.240 --> 0:08:54.120 I gave the countersign for my compagnitos to move into action. 0:08:54.640 --> 0:08:56.840 My understanding is she was working this for a while. 0:08:57.000 --> 0:08:58.200 It was a seduction too. 0:08:58.280 --> 0:09:01.120 Yeah, all of this stuff had to be You couldn't 0:09:01.280 --> 0:09:04.960 just do it because you were dealing with the ruthless regime. 0:09:04.720 --> 0:09:07.360 And she was just sort of playing him, stringing him 0:09:07.400 --> 0:09:09.120 along for a while, sucking him. 0:09:09.040 --> 0:09:11.959 In absolutely, and then something went wrong. 0:09:14.240 --> 0:09:18.800 He arrived ready to simply get on with it. No 0:09:19.480 --> 0:09:24.839 little drinks or conversation first, none of the subtlety or 0:09:25.760 --> 0:09:28.400 the delicacy menus from time to time. No, he just 0:09:28.800 --> 0:09:31.280 arrived and said, here I am, let's do it. 0:09:31.760 --> 0:09:33.000 So it began. 0:09:33.920 --> 0:09:37.280 We went straight to the bedroom. I disarmed him and 0:09:37.360 --> 0:09:40.320 I took off all of my outer clothes. The compans 0:09:40.400 --> 0:09:44.120 came into the room and immobilized him. He put up qualified. 0:09:44.360 --> 0:09:48.120 He was very strong. He began to shut to his guard, 0:09:48.320 --> 0:09:51.560 but the guard didn't hear him. It was when I 0:09:51.679 --> 0:09:53.880 went to the garage to get a car that they 0:09:53.880 --> 0:09:58.280 had to kill El Perro. He resisted too much and 0:09:58.320 --> 0:10:00.520 they had to execute him. 0:10:00.760 --> 0:10:03.480 I remember my mother telling me, oh, one of my 0:10:03.559 --> 0:10:07.679 childhood friends was murdered. We don't know how it happened 0:10:07.800 --> 0:10:10.360 or who did it, because you have to understand this 0:10:10.400 --> 0:10:14.960 is all still very underground. This isn't public knowledge. It 0:10:15.000 --> 0:10:17.120 was years later that it came out that she was 0:10:17.320 --> 0:10:18.160 involved with that. 0:10:18.840 --> 0:10:23.040 I never felt guilty. The plan was to kidnap him, 0:10:23.080 --> 0:10:25.880 but he fought back and had to be killed. It 0:10:25.960 --> 0:10:28.800 was something you had to do for a revolutionary justice. 0:10:29.160 --> 0:10:32.520 He had killed so many, he was a monster. 0:10:33.960 --> 0:10:37.720 They slit his throat. His body was later found wrapped 0:10:37.720 --> 0:10:41.640 in the Sandinista flag. A. Storica became the most wanted 0:10:41.679 --> 0:10:46.160 woman in Nicaragua. The subject of a national manhunt, she 0:10:46.360 --> 0:10:50.000 escaped to the Jungles and joined the Sandinista revolutionaries, where 0:10:50.040 --> 0:10:52.319 she became a warrior and a leader in the war 0:10:52.360 --> 0:10:53.160 against the Mosa. 0:10:54.080 --> 0:10:57.120 The one thing the Sandinesas were good at was treating 0:10:57.160 --> 0:11:00.800 women not only with respect, but equally. They could be 0:11:01.360 --> 0:11:06.880 equal partners on the field, equal partners as soldiers, equal 0:11:06.960 --> 0:11:12.400 partners on missions, and so when the Sandinistas won the revolution, 0:11:12.960 --> 0:11:18.440 she obviously had good standing, and she had held several 0:11:18.559 --> 0:11:19.680 high positions. 0:11:19.920 --> 0:11:24.560 Astorga eventually became Nicaraguan Ambassador to the United Nations. She 0:11:24.720 --> 0:11:28.200 was a controversial choice, opposed vehemently by the US government, 0:11:28.559 --> 0:11:32.400 but she was effective, mingling with the elite and scoring 0:11:32.480 --> 0:11:36.880 major aid packages for Nicaragua. Strident in her beliefs, always 0:11:36.920 --> 0:11:39.599 a warrior for her country, yet always the center of 0:11:39.640 --> 0:11:43.520 controversy and gossip. A female diplomat from Latin America at 0:11:43.559 --> 0:11:47.200 a Security Council debates said, the moment Nora Astorga crossed 0:11:47.200 --> 0:11:49.559 her legs, all the eyes in the room were off 0:11:49.600 --> 0:11:53.240 the speaker and on her. One male Western ambassador said, 0:11:53.440 --> 0:11:56.720 she wears her past like other women wear perfume. She 0:11:56.880 --> 0:11:59.520 was one of a kind. Sixty minutes agreed. 0:12:00.160 --> 0:12:03.960 So Ed Bradley was sort of entranced with her mystique 0:12:04.000 --> 0:12:07.480 and everything about it, much like you are. I told 0:12:07.520 --> 0:12:10.760 him that I could get an interview with her. Was 0:12:10.840 --> 0:12:13.760 he interested? And he was like, tell me when and 0:12:13.840 --> 0:12:16.880 where I'll be there. She was a very striking woman, 0:12:17.120 --> 0:12:20.640 very intelligent. I got everything set up, Ed flew in 0:12:21.080 --> 0:12:24.080 and we got the interview. He loved it. He brought 0:12:24.160 --> 0:12:27.400 up her past. He brought up her present, and he 0:12:27.480 --> 0:12:30.160 brought up what's in the future. None of us knew 0:12:30.160 --> 0:12:32.640 at the time that she had breast cancer and she 0:12:32.840 --> 0:12:35.800 was dying. There was not going to be much future 0:12:36.040 --> 0:12:41.240 left for her. That evening we celebrated. Of course, we 0:12:41.280 --> 0:12:43.680 asked Nora to join us at the hotel. 0:12:44.080 --> 0:12:45.040 Was he flirting with her? 0:12:45.400 --> 0:12:45.600 Oh? 0:12:46.040 --> 0:12:48.520 Ed was a flirt Ed was a charmer. He could 0:12:48.600 --> 0:12:52.320 charm the pants off, literally off anybody. Yeah, he was 0:12:52.520 --> 0:12:57.280 very taken with her. You didn't see the Madahari side 0:12:57.320 --> 0:12:59.679 of her. You could see how she was able to 0:12:59.679 --> 0:13:02.240 do it, but you just didn't see that side of her. 0:13:02.480 --> 0:13:04.720 You think you know people, but you don't know everything 0:13:04.760 --> 0:13:05.360 about them. 0:13:05.640 --> 0:13:06.280 She was tough. 0:13:06.559 --> 0:13:09.839 She was tough, and I believe she was fighting at 0:13:09.880 --> 0:13:15.559 the time the Port of Corinto being mined by the US, 0:13:15.880 --> 0:13:19.760 because that was breaking we spoke of earlier the Geneva convention. 0:13:20.040 --> 0:13:22.240 She was a tough lady. Tough lady. 0:13:22.600 --> 0:13:24.360 When she left the party just raiged on. 0:13:24.600 --> 0:13:28.160 Yeah. Ed could hold his own Yeah, and I was 0:13:28.200 --> 0:13:33.480 getting producing credits in sixty minutes, which was amazing. So yeah, 0:13:33.559 --> 0:13:34.880 it was a night to celebrate. 0:13:35.000 --> 0:13:37.800 Do you want to say anything about having a fling ed. 0:13:37.800 --> 0:13:38.840 And I got close. 0:13:39.679 --> 0:13:39.960 You know. 0:13:40.040 --> 0:13:42.760 He came back to Nicaragua a couple of times. We 0:13:42.800 --> 0:13:45.440 would also see each other in New York and he 0:13:45.559 --> 0:13:48.440 was also a big jazz Fest fan, so when he 0:13:48.480 --> 0:13:51.520 would come here we would have deluxe treatment. It was 0:13:51.559 --> 0:13:56.319 always fun to run with Ed, working or not working. Yeah, 0:13:56.400 --> 0:13:59.160 we had a fling. He was fun. He was interesting, 0:13:59.520 --> 0:14:01.760 but again and maybe he was a little more interested 0:14:01.800 --> 0:14:03.600 in me than I was in him. 0:14:03.679 --> 0:14:12.320 Interesting and not surprising either. Yeah, after the break, we'll 0:14:12.320 --> 0:14:15.040 meet the man in Cookie's life, and after forty years, 0:14:15.120 --> 0:14:17.400 he has a lot to say about it. We'll be 0:14:17.480 --> 0:14:23.560 right back. Welcome back. We've talked a lot about Cookie's 0:14:23.600 --> 0:14:28.000 many adventures, some crazy, some scary, some just plain ridiculous. 0:14:28.160 --> 0:14:30.120 But now we meet the man in her life, her 0:14:30.160 --> 0:14:32.760 forever dude. Some when you met back in her missus 0:14:32.760 --> 0:14:36.480 scarface days. Here we are back again with the beautiful 0:14:36.520 --> 0:14:39.880 and talented Cookie hood, and today we have a very 0:14:39.920 --> 0:14:43.680 special guest, her son Patrick, who everyone knows is Chico. 0:14:43.840 --> 0:14:45.160 Hey, Steve, thanks for having me. 0:14:45.240 --> 0:14:46.720 We know each other a little bit, but I'd like 0:14:46.800 --> 0:14:49.160 to know what it was like growing up in a 0:14:49.200 --> 0:14:52.160 hotel suite in Monagua with this crazy woman in the 0:14:52.160 --> 0:14:52.920 middle of a war. 0:14:53.320 --> 0:14:55.600 You know, here in other people's childhoods and how they 0:14:55.640 --> 0:14:57.840 grew up, and I always think, man, that was not 0:14:58.000 --> 0:15:02.000 my child. I did not have that same experience. It 0:15:02.040 --> 0:15:04.920 was different. Instead of having a front yard in a backyard, 0:15:05.000 --> 0:15:07.920 I had a hotel lobby in a pool area. 0:15:08.000 --> 0:15:11.040 You know, so your friends used to call Yeah. 0:15:11.120 --> 0:15:13.560 My friends used to call it a chi Cho's big house. 0:15:14.120 --> 0:15:16.360 So it was it was interesting, you know, because my 0:15:16.400 --> 0:15:17.960 friends can come over and they knew that, you know, 0:15:18.000 --> 0:15:19.040 we could stay up all night. 0:15:20.600 --> 0:15:21.000 What was it? 0:15:21.120 --> 0:15:21.960 One rule though? 0:15:23.080 --> 0:15:25.720 What there are no rules. 0:15:26.000 --> 0:15:29.640 There's only one rule in this big house. There are 0:15:29.680 --> 0:15:33.600 no rules. And the kids friends would all be like, wow, 0:15:34.600 --> 0:15:38.360 your mom is cool, and they could do whatever the 0:15:38.520 --> 0:15:42.240 fun they wanted. But that did Chiecho was just another day. 0:15:42.480 --> 0:15:44.600 It was a great experience in that piece, but the 0:15:44.600 --> 0:15:47.440 pieces that, you know, maybe fell through the cracks where 0:15:47.600 --> 0:15:50.800 you know, maybe at times, you know, I loved having 0:15:50.800 --> 0:15:53.000 a best friend, but you know, at times I needed 0:15:53.000 --> 0:15:55.320 a mother as well, and she just wasn't good at that. 0:15:55.880 --> 0:15:59.640 You grew up with this crazy, amazing person. Her mission 0:16:00.200 --> 0:16:03.160 to party, her driving force was to party. And she 0:16:03.320 --> 0:16:06.560 became a journalist to party and she changed the world 0:16:06.600 --> 0:16:07.160 in her way. 0:16:07.400 --> 0:16:08.440 Party party. 0:16:08.720 --> 0:16:11.960 Yeah, that sounds really fun and cool. Then you realize 0:16:11.960 --> 0:16:12.760 that's your mom. 0:16:12.640 --> 0:16:12.800 You know. 0:16:12.840 --> 0:16:16.120 There was a few times where I would encounter her 0:16:16.560 --> 0:16:20.520 or her coworkers, you know, maybe like out of their minds, 0:16:20.560 --> 0:16:23.560 messed up. Maybe she's like going off the deep end 0:16:23.680 --> 0:16:26.920 and what her perception of what reality is at the moment, 0:16:27.040 --> 0:16:29.280 you know. And same thing with some of her coworkers. 0:16:29.360 --> 0:16:32.920 I remember there being like lines, yeah, lines or weed 0:16:33.160 --> 0:16:36.880 or pipes or whatever everywhere around me, and because you're 0:16:36.880 --> 0:16:38.800 a kid, you see them, but you don't make two 0:16:38.840 --> 0:16:41.640 sense of it. Obviously I didn't grab anything or do 0:16:41.680 --> 0:16:44.600 anything like that, but it was all, yeah, it was 0:16:44.640 --> 0:16:46.920 all nearby, and I was interacting with all these people 0:16:46.920 --> 0:16:49.120 that are completely fucked up, out of their minds, you know. 0:16:49.280 --> 0:16:51.360 So I used to think you were from the CIA, 0:16:51.440 --> 0:16:56.160 and he was seven. Look at his eyes, those are cameras. 0:16:56.240 --> 0:17:01.080 That's the ciabe. He's seven. He's seven years old. He's 0:17:01.120 --> 0:17:02.240 not from the CIA. 0:17:03.160 --> 0:17:07.280 From an early age, I knew what drugs were and 0:17:07.320 --> 0:17:10.239 how they affected people. It's funny. It wasn't until I 0:17:10.359 --> 0:17:13.280 was in high school going through a DARE class that 0:17:13.320 --> 0:17:15.280 I realized that all these things were bad. 0:17:15.440 --> 0:17:17.680 Your mom's friends, some of these people that she ran 0:17:17.760 --> 0:17:20.800 with at the time, were they like uncles to you? Basically? 0:17:20.920 --> 0:17:21.920 Yeah, it was. 0:17:22.720 --> 0:17:23.920 They were all like buddies. 0:17:24.200 --> 0:17:24.440 Yeah. 0:17:24.760 --> 0:17:27.600 Again, that's one of the things that was really awesome 0:17:27.640 --> 0:17:30.399 about how she raised me was, you know, she treated 0:17:30.440 --> 0:17:32.439 me like an equal. So even though I knew she 0:17:32.520 --> 0:17:34.160 was my mom, you know, I could make fun of her, 0:17:34.320 --> 0:17:36.359 or I could make jokes and feel comfortable around her. 0:17:36.560 --> 0:17:39.120 It was the same for her crew and her friends. 0:17:39.280 --> 0:17:41.520 Because of the way she treated me, they would do 0:17:41.560 --> 0:17:42.200 the same thing. 0:17:42.280 --> 0:17:42.480 You know. 0:17:42.600 --> 0:17:44.520 So maybe some of the camera guys and some of 0:17:44.560 --> 0:17:46.119 the crew guys are a little tougher, you know what 0:17:46.160 --> 0:17:46.440 I mean. 0:17:46.720 --> 0:17:48.480 Because he was the mascot, you know. 0:17:48.480 --> 0:17:49.960 Man, there were little shits, man. 0:17:49.880 --> 0:17:55.000 Like it would wrap them up, Gaffer tam Man and 0:17:55.040 --> 0:17:59.280 he would be hopping around. What time? This was a 0:17:59.280 --> 0:18:01.560 great story. I took him to Bill Counsuler, you know. 0:18:01.640 --> 0:18:03.520 William Kunstler, the famous attorney. 0:18:03.840 --> 0:18:06.720 William Kunstler was the former director of the American Civil 0:18:06.800 --> 0:18:11.720 Liberties Union the ACLU. He made his name defending the indefensible, 0:18:12.000 --> 0:18:13.480 taking on unwinnable cases. 0:18:13.560 --> 0:18:15.480 He was one of the most well known lawyers and 0:18:15.520 --> 0:18:19.199 civil rights activists of the twentieth century. William Kunstler defended 0:18:19.240 --> 0:18:22.720 the Chicago Seven and counted Martin Luther King, Junior, Malcolm X, 0:18:22.760 --> 0:18:25.000 and comedian Lenny Bruce among his clients. 0:18:25.280 --> 0:18:27.439 The New York Times called him the most hated and 0:18:27.520 --> 0:18:28.760 loved lawyer in America. 0:18:29.480 --> 0:18:32.680 Well, I took him to Bill's house for barbecue at 0:18:32.720 --> 0:18:36.960 the same moment the JDL is outside protesting and wanting 0:18:37.000 --> 0:18:41.080 to kill him because he was defending the first World 0:18:41.119 --> 0:18:44.600 Trade Center bombers. You remember those first ones. Yeah, And 0:18:44.720 --> 0:18:47.760 so even when we weren't in Nick Roger in the war, 0:18:48.000 --> 0:18:50.480 anywhere we would go, this would be. 0:18:50.480 --> 0:18:52.360 His trouble was finding us. Man. 0:18:52.400 --> 0:18:54.680 I just remember, like we're eating and I'm like looking 0:18:54.680 --> 0:18:56.000 at and so I'm like, what are all these people? 0:18:56.080 --> 0:18:59.160 He just like, why are those people protesting and angry 0:18:59.280 --> 0:19:02.119 at us? Why do they want to hurt us? Cookie? 0:19:02.200 --> 0:19:04.720 And like we had to book and get out the 0:19:04.800 --> 0:19:07.720 back door and run away. His life was like that, 0:19:07.960 --> 0:19:09.880 anywhere and everywhere that we went. 0:19:10.200 --> 0:19:12.720 Were you aware of the danger? Were you afraid for 0:19:12.800 --> 0:19:15.280 your mom? Were you afraid for the world you have? 0:19:16.160 --> 0:19:19.240 I always knew what her job was and I understood 0:19:19.280 --> 0:19:23.320 the dangers because I would see news footage being spliced 0:19:23.359 --> 0:19:25.800 in front of me in their studio in the hotel. 0:19:26.080 --> 0:19:28.480 It didn't really hit home until she would get into 0:19:28.480 --> 0:19:30.640 these situations where I'd be like, hey, where's my mom, 0:19:30.640 --> 0:19:32.640 And they're like, well, she can't come home right now 0:19:32.680 --> 0:19:35.200 because of this, or she can't come home because of that. 0:19:35.480 --> 0:19:37.600 She would never hide anything from me, and you know, 0:19:37.640 --> 0:19:39.919 I could be five years old and she's telling me 0:19:39.920 --> 0:19:40.879 the cold, hard. 0:19:40.600 --> 0:19:43.280 Facts, whether I understood it or not, you know, but uh. 0:19:43.880 --> 0:19:46.520 Yeah, well Cookie, did you ever have a moment where 0:19:46.560 --> 0:19:48.360 you thought what am I doing to this kid? 0:19:48.400 --> 0:19:48.920 Every day? 0:19:50.119 --> 0:19:53.080 Actually? You know, you'd think that I would have thought that, 0:19:53.600 --> 0:19:57.920 But everything was just so natural, just things that most 0:19:57.920 --> 0:20:01.320 people would have just been horrified. We just took it 0:20:01.359 --> 0:20:05.160 and stride was normal. I guess it was our normal. 0:20:05.359 --> 0:20:06.960 And if we wouldn't have been in a war, we 0:20:07.000 --> 0:20:10.879 would have been in some other crazy situation. So I 0:20:10.960 --> 0:20:15.520 did try to hide certain aspects of the war from him, 0:20:15.560 --> 0:20:18.280 you know, I wouldn't expose him to dead bodies or 0:20:18.280 --> 0:20:21.320 people blown up. There were times when he had to 0:20:21.400 --> 0:20:24.399 confront that kind of shit. I guess at the time, 0:20:24.480 --> 0:20:27.760 I didn't realize how that could fuck him up or something, 0:20:28.200 --> 0:20:31.080 which I guess just having me as a mother would 0:20:31.080 --> 0:20:34.680 have been enough to fuck him up. I never really 0:20:34.720 --> 0:20:38.679 felt guilty about putting him in those situations. My guilt 0:20:38.760 --> 0:20:41.800 was more of I'm not always there for him. I'm 0:20:41.800 --> 0:20:44.560 not a great mom, or a mom not on top 0:20:44.600 --> 0:20:48.760 of his homework, or where's he going, which in later 0:20:48.880 --> 0:20:51.680 years I felt guilty about. I didn't feel guilty at 0:20:51.720 --> 0:20:55.080 the time because I was too caught up in everything 0:20:55.119 --> 0:20:58.159 that was going on. The funny thing is that he 0:20:58.359 --> 0:21:04.040 was everywhere, and not just myself, but all journalists, all 0:21:04.160 --> 0:21:08.000 crews just took him for granted. He was just chi 0:21:08.160 --> 0:21:12.439 cho hanging out. He lived in a bubble within a 0:21:12.480 --> 0:21:15.880 bubble within a war. He was probably in a lot 0:21:15.960 --> 0:21:19.520 more danger than we would care to admit or realize 0:21:19.760 --> 0:21:22.760 at any given moment. I guess that's my bad. 0:21:23.320 --> 0:21:27.160 The biggest takeaway from it was being ready for anything, 0:21:27.280 --> 0:21:30.320 and you know, whether as positive or negative. And it 0:21:30.359 --> 0:21:33.239 really got me to be in touch with people, you know, 0:21:33.680 --> 0:21:36.000 whether they were you know, somebody that was really important 0:21:36.080 --> 0:21:39.480 or treated as a VIP, or you know, maybe it's 0:21:39.680 --> 0:21:42.399