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Speaker 1: This is the me Eater podcast coming at you shirtless, severely,

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Speaker 1: bug bitten, and in my case, underwear. Listening past, you

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Speaker 1: can't predict anything brought to you by first Light. When

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Speaker 1: I'm hunting, I need gear that won't quit. First Light builds,

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Speaker 1: no compromise, gear that keeps me in the field longer,

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Speaker 1: no shortcuts, just gear that works. Check it out at

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Speaker 1: first light dot com.

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Speaker 2: That's f I R S T L I T E

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Speaker 2: dot com.

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Speaker 1: Hot damn. We're joined today by big time writer to

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Speaker 1: Thalia Holt, one of the most credentialed writers we've had

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Speaker 1: on No, that's not true among the most I mean

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Speaker 1: like like a like a writer writer.

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Speaker 3: I think David grand is going to have some words

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Speaker 3: about that. I'm not sure that's true.

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Speaker 1: But more among the big time, the big like writer writers.

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Speaker 3: Oh, that's very.

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Speaker 1: Among the big time writer you know what I mean.

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Speaker 1: You know, here's what I'm trying to say. We've had

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Speaker 1: now that I think about, We've had a number of

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Speaker 1: esteemed generalists, but you're a generalist nonfiction writer.

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Speaker 3: Well, I've got the PhD, so I think that gives

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Speaker 3: me a little credibility in there. But yeah, you've had

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Speaker 3: some big writers on this show, and I'm pretty excited

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Speaker 3: to be part of it.

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Speaker 1: On the lower rung of the top numb joke, yeah,

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Speaker 1: bottomshell yeah. Among our prestigious writers that we've had on

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Speaker 1: the show are generalist nonfiction writers that we've had on

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Speaker 1: the show. Nathalia Holt is here in her new book

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Speaker 1: is The Beast in the Clouds, and get this. This

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Speaker 1: is what we're going to talk about today. It's I

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Speaker 1: had no idea up until the nineteen thirties, this is

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Speaker 1: the story we're going to tell. Up until the nineteen thirties,

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Speaker 1: it was debated whether there was actually like in the

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Speaker 1: Western world, there was an active debate is there such

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Speaker 1: a thing as a panda bear?

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Speaker 3: That's right, this is the last nine unknown to science.

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Speaker 3: Up until the nineteen thirties, up until the Roosevelts did

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Speaker 3: this expedition, there was serious debate in the scientific community

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Speaker 3: about whether pandas were real.

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Speaker 1: People would say like, hey, there's this big white and

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Speaker 1: black bear up in the mountains, and peo'ld be like

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Speaker 1: pull shit right.

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Speaker 3: Well, at that point, you have all of the bears

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Speaker 3: that are known to science, and they have been known

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Speaker 3: for a long time. So polar bears had been known

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Speaker 3: for thousands of years. They had been kept in early zoos.

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Speaker 3: Black bears, grizzly bears were all known. Pandas were not.

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Speaker 3: And it started in eighteen sixty nine with a French

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Speaker 3: missionary who was in China, and he asked the hunters

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Speaker 3: there to just go find him interesting animals and they

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Speaker 3: brought him and bring me on. Yeah, bring me all

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Speaker 3: the interesting animals you can find. I want to see.

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Speaker 3: It's not fat.

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Speaker 1: Unter season AMI's guy like, but is it interesting?

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Speaker 3: He got a lot of interesting animals. Yeah, it worked,

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Speaker 3: and one of them was a small black and white

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Speaker 3: cub and so he is wondering what this could be.

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Speaker 3: There's no animal quite like it. He sends the skin

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Speaker 3: of it to scientists in Paris, and the hide is

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Speaker 3: missing part of the head. It's not a very good specimen.

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Speaker 3: And of course he has not seen the animal himself alive.

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Speaker 3: He's only ever seen this dead skin, so it's very

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Speaker 3: hard for him to describe it. And so he is

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Speaker 3: describing to the scientists what a panda looks like. Just

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Speaker 3: from the descriptions that he's heard. You can imagine what

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Speaker 3: a scientist might think. It's almost as if I'm describing

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Speaker 3: to you a unicorn, what does a unicorn look like?

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Speaker 3: And then you're trying to make a picture, and you

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Speaker 3: could probably make a pretty good picture, but it doesn't

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Speaker 3: mean that it's a real animal. And so from that

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Speaker 3: point scientists were very interested to find out if this

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Speaker 3: was real. There was actually a black and white bear

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Speaker 3: in China. And so fast forward to nineteen sixteen and

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Speaker 3: you have a group of German hunters who then came

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Speaker 3: into China also began looking for interesting animals, found local

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Speaker 3: hunters and asked them, go find us a panda. We're

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Speaker 3: looking for a black and white bear. And they bring

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Speaker 3: back pandas. They bring back a live cub, as well

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Speaker 3: as skins of several pandas, but they're unable to keep

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Speaker 3: the cub alive. However, they are the first Westerners to

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Speaker 3: have finally seen a live panda. But they don't bring

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Speaker 3: back any of this evidence to the West, and so

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Speaker 3: scientists in the West are still maybe this is true,

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Speaker 3: maybe this isn't. It's a lot of hearsay at this point.

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Speaker 3: Then in nineteen nineteen, an American missionary named Joseph Milner

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Speaker 3: sends a specimen that he found in a marketplace in

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Speaker 3: China to the American Museum of Natural History and it's

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Speaker 3: finally we have the skin of a panda. And so

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Speaker 3: the Museum of Natural History and now is that they're

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Speaker 3: very excited. They call it a rare beast from eastern Tibet,

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Speaker 3: and they say, we don't really know much about this animal.

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Speaker 3: We don't know where it lives, we don't know where

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Speaker 3: it eats, what it eats. Because Joseph Milner had never

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Speaker 3: seen the animal, he knew very little about it. But

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Speaker 3: we really think this is real. Now there are pandas

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Speaker 3: out there, and so you can imagine immediately all of

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Speaker 3: these expeditions form. This is prime time for expeditions, right,

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Speaker 3: this is the time explorers are going out in the world.

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Speaker 3: They're looking for interesting things, and so you have all

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Speaker 3: these expeditions that go out to China desperate to find

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Speaker 3: the panda, and they all return empty handed. Ten years pass,

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Speaker 3: and at this point scientists are really in conflict because

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Speaker 3: it seems as if, yes, this panda is real, but

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Speaker 3: at this point, why haven't they found it yet? Why

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Speaker 3: hasn't there been a specimen brought to the museum that

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Speaker 3: can actually be studied scientifically? That can be compared to

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Speaker 3: other animals, and so when the Roosevelts leave for their

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Speaker 3: expedition in nineteen twenty eight, the panda is considered the

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Speaker 3: most challenging trophy animal in the world. It is really

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Speaker 3: considered the epitome of a bear to find, and it's

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Speaker 3: also thought to be a dangerous animal. So little was

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Speaker 3: known about the panda that they expected it to be

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Speaker 3: this cross between polar bears and black bears. They thought

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Speaker 3: they were going to find one of the most aggressive

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Speaker 3: predators on earth as they search out.

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Speaker 1: Like a polar bear that can climb trees.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly, Yeah, And I mean really, when the Roosevelts

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Speaker 3: go out, you can imagine these are the two eldest

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Speaker 3: sons of President Roosevelt, and of course the challenge of

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Speaker 3: getting the most prized trophy animal in the world. That

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Speaker 3: is something that is going to speak to them. But

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Speaker 3: really very little is expected from their expedition because they

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Speaker 3: are a small group, much smaller than the expeditions that

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Speaker 3: had traveled previously, and it's not a group that is

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Speaker 3: particularly impressive. You've got the two eldest Roosevelts. These are

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Speaker 3: not accomplished scientists, although they obviously have a lot of

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Speaker 3: experience as hunters, and they're going with a ragtag group.

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Speaker 3: So as they're leaving, as they're going on this expedition,

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Speaker 3: few think that they are the ones that are going

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Speaker 3: to be able to discover the panda.

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Speaker 1: So you mentioned having a PhD. What did you What

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Speaker 1: did you study? I have a.

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Speaker 3: PhD in molecular biology, and I've done field work in

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Speaker 3: a lot of really interesting places in Alaska, in redwood trees,

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Speaker 3: in South Africa. So I'm able to bring some of

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Speaker 3: that experience of doing science in the field to this

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Speaker 3: book and it does help. It helps kind of give

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Speaker 3: me some of that background.

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Speaker 1: And you are Nathaliahole, PhD. You're a New York Times

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Speaker 1: bestselling author, So Beast in the Clouds. What you're here

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Speaker 1: to talk about today? Past books, Wise Gals, Rise of

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Speaker 1: the Rocket Girls, The Queens of Animation, and the book Keered.

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Speaker 1: You've written for New York Times, Wall Street Journal, Los

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Speaker 1: Angeles Times, The Atlantic, Slate, Pop Either Science, PBS, and

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Speaker 1: Time and a former fellow at the Reagan What is that?

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Speaker 3: It's Reagan Institute, So it's this it's a science group

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Speaker 3: that's a part of Harvard MDH and m I T

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Speaker 3: in Boston.

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Speaker 1: Okay, she is a former fellow at the I would

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Speaker 1: read that Reagon because we know how Reagan spelled.

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Speaker 3: I know, I understand.

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Speaker 1: It's one of the things we learned from Reagan. I

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Speaker 1: was spelled Reagan the Reagan Institute of mg.

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Speaker 3: H, which is the Massachusetts General Hospital.

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Speaker 1: Oh, okay, MI T the alma mater of Ted Kazinski. Here's

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Speaker 1: a teacher there in Harvard University. And you live in

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Speaker 1: Pacific Grove, California.

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Speaker 3: I do.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Okay, So we're going to pick up this story.

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Speaker 1: And I got my first question coming out of this

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Speaker 1: when we picked the story back up, is we gotta

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Speaker 1: go back up because I need to know what, like,

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Speaker 1: what kind of a dad was Roosevelt? So the stew

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Speaker 1: one at a minute, Yeah, before we before we embark

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Speaker 1: them on this journey of trying to shoot them or

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Speaker 1: collect a panda bear against all odds, I need to know,

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Speaker 1: was Roosevelt like an absentee father that that stew unadam innute?

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Speaker 1: But first, we have our Christmas tour coming up, the

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Speaker 1: twenty tour, the twenty twenty five live tour. We're calling

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Speaker 1: it the Christmas tour. We were it's all in the South,

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Speaker 1: it's all in the South, and it's a Christmas tour.

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Speaker 1: So my first idea is that we would make a

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Speaker 1: poster where it's like the old Spaghetti Western posters, like good,

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Speaker 1: the Bad, and the Ugly, but it'd be Santa Clauses

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Speaker 1: and elves with bandoliers and pistols like the like the

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Speaker 1: Spaghetti Westerns. That was my first vision. Then Randall and

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Speaker 1: I got sidetracked talking about an idea where we were

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Speaker 1: dressed as Yankee soldiers and it was the North's coming again.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, or.

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Speaker 1: Randall wanted to do the tour. He wanted to do

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Speaker 1: the tour of the South along the path of Sherman's March.

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Speaker 2: And I said that to you in confidence, and.

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Speaker 1: It's like it's gonna be then the Yankees, the tour

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Speaker 1: posters gonna be the Yankees are coming again. But we

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Speaker 1: checked with a couple of Southerners, well, Hunter Spencer. We

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Speaker 1: called Hunter Spencer's first player call I made. I was like, Hunter,

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Speaker 1: if we brand this as like the Yankees are coming again?

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Speaker 1: He thought it's a little too soon. He thinks it's

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Speaker 1: a little too soon. So maybe in a hundred years

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Speaker 1: what's in a hundred years, the twenty the two one,

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Speaker 1: two five, if this is the twenty yeah, the twenty

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Speaker 1: one twenty.

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Speaker 2: They're just doing holograms of us tour.

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Speaker 3: No, we'll just need to bring Steve back like the

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Speaker 3: Dire Wolves.

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Speaker 1: And the twenty century. Maybe we'll do the the Yankees

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Speaker 1: are coming. But instead we're just branding at more of

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Speaker 1: something that everyone can get on board with. Well, well

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Speaker 1: that most people can get on board with, which is

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Speaker 1: the Christmas Tour. But I do want you to know,

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Speaker 1: you know, I don't want any people, you know, I

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Speaker 1: don't want to discourage people of other faiths. But we're

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Speaker 1: calling it the Christmas Tour. The Christmas Tour is coming,

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Speaker 1: not the Yankees. It's in the South. It's in the South,

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Speaker 1: but it's not like a bunch of Yankees from up

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Speaker 1: north though. You know we're bringing Clay.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Clay will be there.

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Speaker 1: He's from Arkansas.

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Speaker 2: Huh. It'll be a little twang southish, Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Selfish, he's coming. We could have done it like that,

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Speaker 1: since Clays from the South and and uh Brents from

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Speaker 1: the South, we could have had it be like the

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Speaker 1: Reconciliation Tour and the poster would be.

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Speaker 2: Yankees and could look like the paintings of appomatics.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, or Yankees and Confederates with our arms around each other,

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Speaker 1: and we called the Reconciliation Tour, and it'd be that

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Speaker 1: Yankees in Arkansas, people are coming to your town.

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Speaker 3: What are you gonna wear?

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Speaker 1: The hats, Santa Claus.

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Speaker 2: It's just like we're putting the You know, when I

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Speaker 2: heard about this, my first thought was last year I

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Speaker 2: had to make do with a pretty not movie quality

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Speaker 2: Santa Claus costume for all the office high jinks. And

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Speaker 2: so I thought, if if we're doing a live Christmas tour,

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Speaker 2: maybe it's time that we invested, because.

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Speaker 1: I believe ye have a serious tape.

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Speaker 2: I went to the sites and I saw the I

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Speaker 2: went to all the websites of real high quality Santa gear,

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Speaker 2: just because it seems like something that you know, you

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Speaker 2: buy once and you're good for fifteen years.

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Speaker 1: Like a dude that has a job at them all. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: he's wearing a legit.

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Speaker 4: Like.

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Speaker 2: I looked into the different styles of belts. You know,

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Speaker 2: a lot of them are actually overalls underneath the jacket.

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Speaker 2: The different trim styles.

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Speaker 1: Uh.

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Speaker 2: And then to say nothing of the wigs.

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Speaker 1: And beards.

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Speaker 2: I did a lot of research, so I'm when we

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Speaker 2: have our budgeting meeting for the tour, I'm gonna I

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Speaker 2: have a presentation with a tailored suit, yeah, like a

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Speaker 2: real Santa suit. And then are you actually doing full

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Speaker 2: on boots or are you doing boot covers? Because most

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Speaker 2: of the cheap ones have boot covers, who assume that

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Speaker 2: a real Santa would have the actual boots, but in

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Speaker 2: fact quite a few of the real high end Santa

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Speaker 2: costumes they're still using boot covers.

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Speaker 1: I do like that one bit.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, well we can talk about it.

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Speaker 1: Uh, you're gonna bring the suit, Well that's yeah. So

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Speaker 1: here's the deal for people, for Southerners out there, you

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Speaker 1: know who you are. If for Christmas, right mm hmm,

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Speaker 1: you'd be like, hey, what I want is tickets to

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Speaker 1: the Christmas tour.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Uncle Eddie will be in town, you know.

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Speaker 1: Ye, so that's what you should. So if you're listening,

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Speaker 1: tell your spouse or your boyfriend or your girlfriend that

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Speaker 1: what you want is tickets to the Christmas tour and

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Speaker 1: Randall's gonna be there in a suit. There'll be carols

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Speaker 1: and like, listen, don't be afraid to bring your grandpas

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Speaker 1: We're not going to bring up the war between the States.

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Speaker 1: I don't want you think we're going to enter into

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Speaker 1: a big controversy. It's just pure Christmas tour. Yeah, we're

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Speaker 1: gonna send carols, We're gonna do like a normal met

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Speaker 1: Eater live show. There'll be contests and whatnot, and people

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Speaker 1: be winning all kinds of stuff, but it'll have a

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Speaker 1: Christmas overlay to it. Nothing to do with the nothing

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Speaker 1: to do with the you know, I'm not gonna say

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Speaker 1: it anymore. Yeah, here's where we're going. Six stops. Birmingham, Alabama. Well,

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Speaker 1: I got a great Birmingham story, I know, telling that

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Speaker 1: at one time drove I took a Greyhound across. I

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Speaker 1: was just told it. Good gracious. Uh. Birmingham, Alabama, Nashville, Tennessee, Memphis, Tennessee, Fayetteville, Arkansas, Fayetteville, Fayetteville,

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Speaker 1: I was joking, Fayetteville, Arkansas.

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Speaker 2: Uh.

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Speaker 1: I just talked to Evan Felker. He's gonna come to

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Speaker 1: the from Turnpike Trubid Doors. He's gonna come to the

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Speaker 1: show and him and Clay are gonna do the bird

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Speaker 1: Hunters Live at the start of the show. Wow, isn't

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Speaker 1: that cool?

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Speaker 2: Maybe he could carol for us a bit.

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Speaker 1: Too, Dallas, Texas, where we've been before. In Austin, Texas,

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Speaker 1: where I don't think we've done a show. If you

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Speaker 1: want to go to the meat eater dot com you

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Speaker 1: can sign up for a thing we got for a

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Speaker 1: pre sale. Ho ho ho and revel yell yell coming

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Speaker 1: to the South. Good gracious. I was gonna tell a

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Speaker 1: big story about having a hard hat, because Randall's like,

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Speaker 1: I'm not gonna tell that. Trbably get back into Pan

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Speaker 1: of Bears. But yeah, Randall's under pressure to get all

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Speaker 1: your things from growing up out of your mos house.

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Speaker 1: And she wondered if you still wanted your hard hat. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that and a crossbow in a cave, our knife, yeah,

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Speaker 1: but never mind that. What kind of dad was Roosevelt?

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Speaker 1: Do you mean? But like he couldn't have been around much.

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Speaker 3: You're you're wrong about that. Actually, he was an incredibly carrying,

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Speaker 3: affectionate father. He was the kind of dad who got

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Speaker 3: down on the floor played with his kids. He even

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Speaker 3: when he was gone, and he was gone for long

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Speaker 3: stretches of time, he would write his kids these long letters.

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Speaker 3: He would tell them how much he loved them. He

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Speaker 3: would draw little pictures for them in his letters, and

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Speaker 3: he loved to play just crazy, rowdy games with his

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Speaker 3: kids when he was home. They would chase around the house.

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Speaker 3: I talk in the book about a game they played

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Speaker 3: called bear Hunt, where they would chase after their dad,

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Speaker 3: looking for him all around the house, and when they

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Speaker 3: found him, it was all tickles and giggles and kisses

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Speaker 3: and all that kind of stuff. But the other side

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Speaker 3: of that is that he did put a lot of

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Speaker 3: pressure on his kids, and you can imagine that for

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Speaker 3: the sons of any famous man. This is a lot.

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Speaker 1: Right.

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Speaker 3: There are advantages, but they're also disadvantages.

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Speaker 1: That's what I'd be curious about. When I was reading,

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Speaker 1: I didn't know that they did crazy expeditions like they're

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Speaker 1: all man did. So I was picturing two driving like

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Speaker 1: I was picturing two scenarios. Scenario one, they have a

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Speaker 1: great relationship with their dad. The stuff he does is cool.

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Speaker 1: He introduced them to doing cool stuff, and they just

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Speaker 1: want to continue along because they admire that lifestyle. Or

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Speaker 1: Scenario two is they never got his love, and the

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Speaker 1: one way that they could try to get his attention

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Speaker 1: is to mirror his adventurous activities and go have a

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Speaker 1: big discovery and finally get dad to be like, hey,

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Speaker 1: good job, Kermit.

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Speaker 3: It's you know, it's a little bit of both, because

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Speaker 3: obviously he loved his kids very passionately. He was very

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Speaker 3: affectionate with them, but he put a lot of pressure

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Speaker 3: on them. So ted the eldest son, had a nervous

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Speaker 3: breakdown when he was ten years old, and the doctor

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Speaker 3: told Teddy Roosevelt, this is because of the pressure you're

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Speaker 3: putting on him. It's too much.

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Speaker 1: At what age ten that looks like a ten year

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Speaker 1: old nervous breakdown.

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Speaker 3: I mean you can imagine that. It's not easy to

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Speaker 3: be the son. At Teddy Roosevelt, this is a larger

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Speaker 3: than life figure, and he is very concerned about his

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Speaker 3: son's being so strong. He says repeatedly in letters that

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Speaker 3: he's worried that Kermit is going to be a weakling

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Speaker 3: and his bodies. Yeah. He says it to family members

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Speaker 3: and to friends, and he talks about this with Kermit

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Speaker 3: as well, and he and Kermit obviously have a close relationship.

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Speaker 3: They go on several expeditions together. So they go in

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Speaker 3: nineteen oh nine, they go to Africa, where Kermit is

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Speaker 3: able to hunt an elephant, he's able to get a

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Speaker 3: calf that's right now in the American Museum of Natural History.

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Speaker 3: And then after Teddy Roosevelt loses the election in nineteen twelve,

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Speaker 3: they go on a River of Doubt expedition, and of

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Speaker 3: course that one is told so beautifully in Candice Millard's

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Speaker 3: book River of Doubt, where it is a perilous expedition.

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Speaker 3: It's one that Teddy Roosevelt almost dies in. And so

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Speaker 3: you see how close their relationship was and how important

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Speaker 3: it was to the two eldest sons to really carry

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Speaker 3: on in their father's footstep up. And it wasn't easy

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Speaker 3: for them to do that in other aspects of their life.

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Speaker 3: So ted for example, wanted to be a politician like

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Speaker 3: his father. That was his goal, that was his dream.

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Speaker 3: And before this expedition happens where they go for the panda,

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Speaker 3: those dreams are completely scattered. There's no way he's going

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Speaker 3: to be able to do that.

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Speaker 1: Because of his own limitations or because of his popularity.

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Speaker 3: So, because he was involved in the teapot dome scandal,

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Speaker 3: so he was assistant Secretary of the Navy, which is

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Speaker 3: a position that his father had held as well before

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Speaker 3: becoming president, and during that time it was found out

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Speaker 3: that the government was giving oil leases preferentially by taking bribes.

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Speaker 1: I've heard of this, but I have no idea what

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Speaker 1: it is. Yeah, the teapot dome scandals, Like in the

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Speaker 1: way back of my head, there's like a I feel

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Speaker 1: like you've heard of that a few years ago.

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Speaker 3: You know, it's been a while teapot dome scandal. Yes,

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Speaker 3: And so after that, even though Ted was not convicted

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Speaker 3: of any crime, he was implicated in this and canceled.

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Speaker 3: And yeah, he got canceled. In fact, you even have

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Speaker 3: Eleanor Roosevelt campaigning against him in a giant teapot costume.

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Speaker 3: What it's brutal. I mean, that's your family got to

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Speaker 3: fight family. Yeah, so that's you know FDR and Eleanor

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Speaker 3: where there was a feud between them, so they're distant cousins.

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Speaker 1: And is it true that the one side? Is it

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Speaker 1: true that the one side was that Theodore's clan was

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Speaker 1: Roosevelt and that the Franklin clan was Roosevelt. Have you

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Speaker 1: ever heard this before?

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Speaker 3: I have?

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Speaker 1: Is that not true?

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Speaker 3: I don't think so. I think it's just the way

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Speaker 3: that people from different areas pronounced the.

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Speaker 1: Names, so it was like Roosevelt across the board. Yeah, okay,

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Speaker 1: got it?

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Speaker 3: Yeah and so and.

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Speaker 1: Then which in this story you're telling which one is,

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Speaker 1: just so people are kind of ware this is like

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Speaker 1: foreshadowing which of his two boys ends up killing himself.

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Speaker 1: That's Kermit, Okay, he ends up killing himself, and he's

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Speaker 1: the one rolled up in teapot dome.

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Speaker 3: No, that's actually the eldest brother God that is rolled

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Speaker 3: up in that. And it's interesting to me because what

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Speaker 3: we see is that Teddy Roosevelt often went on expeditions

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Speaker 3: during difficult points in his life. So when he lost

401
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Speaker 3: the election and he went to the River of Doubt,

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Speaker 3: when he lost his mother and his wife, he went

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Speaker 3: to the Dakotas, and you really see his sons following

404
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Speaker 3: in those footsteps, deciding to go on this expedition during

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Speaker 3: a difficult time for them. So ted had just was

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Speaker 3: politically obliterated, is the way his wife put it. And

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Speaker 3: Kermit was having many issues. He was just not a

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Speaker 3: successful businessman. He was having a lot of difficulties. He

409
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Speaker 3: was having problems with his family too, So both of

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Speaker 3: them were at a point in their lives where they

411
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Speaker 3: were ready to escape, They're ready to go do something different,

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Speaker 3: and going into the woods, going on hunting expeditions was

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Speaker 3: always a big part of their lives.

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Speaker 1: So how like, how did they get they got their

415
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Speaker 1: finger on the pulse of the world, I guess when

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Speaker 1: it comes to exploration and wildlife discoveries, but does how

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Speaker 1: does the panda mystery or the panda controversy, Like how

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Speaker 1: does it land in their lab? Like how do they

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Speaker 1: become the recipients of this and be like, hey, we'll

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Speaker 1: be the ones that go find it.

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Speaker 3: You know, it's luck, honestly, because at that point you

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Speaker 3: have ten years of expeditions that have gone out and

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Speaker 3: have not been able to find the panda. The Roosevelts

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Speaker 3: are able to get funding from the Field Museum and

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Speaker 3: because of that they're able to go do this expedition,

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Speaker 3: and honestly, the museum is not expecting them to come

427
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Speaker 3: back with the panda, but they're thinking they'll find other animals,

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Speaker 3: and they do. They find many other animals besides the

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Speaker 3: panda on this expedition, and.

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Speaker 1: At this point time, how many pandas are alive?

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Speaker 3: It's hard to say, So the best estimate we have

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Speaker 3: is somewhere in the two thousand range. There's not a

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Speaker 3: lot of pandas.

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Speaker 1: At that point, there's only two thousand pandas.

435
00:24:06,520 --> 00:24:12,119
Speaker 3: Yes, pandas have always been fairly rare, and they're only

436
00:24:12,160 --> 00:24:14,840
Speaker 3: found in a few very small parts of China. So

437
00:24:15,440 --> 00:24:19,600
Speaker 3: even in China, the panda was not well known. And

438
00:24:19,800 --> 00:24:22,320
Speaker 3: it makes sense when you think about how divided China

439
00:24:22,400 --> 00:24:24,680
Speaker 3: was at that point too, because this is a country

440
00:24:25,400 --> 00:24:29,640
Speaker 3: that is very territorial, so you have many different cultures,

441
00:24:29,680 --> 00:24:33,840
Speaker 3: many independent kingdoms, and in the places where the panda lived,

442
00:24:34,040 --> 00:24:37,520
Speaker 3: it's remote mountains, and people there did not have a

443
00:24:37,520 --> 00:24:39,040
Speaker 3: lot of roads and did not have a lot of

444
00:24:39,119 --> 00:24:42,840
Speaker 3: contact with the Chinese, and they themselves did not consider

445
00:24:42,880 --> 00:24:46,840
Speaker 3: themselves Chinese.

446
00:24:47,119 --> 00:24:52,880
Speaker 1: This is like deep, I won't judge if you don't

447
00:24:52,920 --> 00:24:56,880
Speaker 1: know the answer to this. Let's say you go back.

448
00:24:56,960 --> 00:24:58,960
Speaker 1: Let's say we went back ten thousand years or whatever

449
00:24:58,960 --> 00:25:04,120
Speaker 1: the hell was it? Like? Was it at a time

450
00:25:04,240 --> 00:25:06,639
Speaker 1: was there a million pandas? Do I mean, let's say

451
00:25:06,680 --> 00:25:09,840
Speaker 1: you went back to whatever mark or does it seem

452
00:25:09,880 --> 00:25:12,600
Speaker 1: like they were being forced into some kind of bottleneck

453
00:25:12,720 --> 00:25:14,880
Speaker 1: at this point or was it just that somehow they

454
00:25:15,000 --> 00:25:19,400
Speaker 1: managed to exist as an always very limited animal.

455
00:25:19,960 --> 00:25:24,000
Speaker 3: So the panda went through some big evolutionary changes, and

456
00:25:24,080 --> 00:25:26,879
Speaker 3: so at one point we think the panda was found

457
00:25:27,520 --> 00:25:32,080
Speaker 3: in other continents, even in Europe. There's evidence of early pandas,

458
00:25:32,440 --> 00:25:35,440
Speaker 3: but they look so different than we think of them today.

459
00:25:35,680 --> 00:25:38,720
Speaker 3: And then the panda change it adapted to its environment.

460
00:25:39,400 --> 00:25:43,480
Speaker 3: They are one of only a few species in Carnivora

461
00:25:43,520 --> 00:25:47,760
Speaker 3: that are herbivores, and so they developed a unique thumb

462
00:25:48,000 --> 00:25:52,439
Speaker 3: that's perfect for grasping bamboo. Their teeth changed, so they

463
00:25:52,480 --> 00:25:56,640
Speaker 3: went to this herbivore diet, and all of those changes

464
00:25:57,160 --> 00:26:01,359
Speaker 3: led them to being very linked to these mountainous bamboo

465
00:26:01,400 --> 00:26:03,840
Speaker 3: forests that are only found in certain parts of the world.

466
00:26:04,160 --> 00:26:06,520
Speaker 1: So if you if you laid out a hunk of

467
00:26:07,840 --> 00:26:10,800
Speaker 1: I don't know, man, like you lay out like a

468
00:26:10,880 --> 00:26:15,080
Speaker 1: hunk of meat hanging there, is he gonna I'll eat that.

469
00:26:15,520 --> 00:26:16,800
Speaker 1: Here's just gonna not eat it.

470
00:26:17,760 --> 00:26:20,680
Speaker 3: Panda's not gonna eat a hunk it. No, Yeah, it's

471
00:26:20,680 --> 00:26:24,000
Speaker 3: not gonna work. But if you looked at earlier ancestors

472
00:26:24,040 --> 00:26:28,080
Speaker 3: to the panda, you have omnivores that were eating meat

473
00:26:28,119 --> 00:26:29,800
Speaker 3: at that time. But that's that's way.

474
00:26:30,080 --> 00:26:32,160
Speaker 1: So even if they can get it, that my question

475
00:26:32,280 --> 00:26:36,040
Speaker 1: was more like, like, is it just that they're that

476
00:26:36,359 --> 00:26:39,119
Speaker 1: they were confined to a certain area and so in

477
00:26:39,160 --> 00:26:42,199
Speaker 1: that area what they had to eat that was bamboo

478
00:26:42,359 --> 00:26:44,720
Speaker 1: or was it that they were that was what they

479
00:26:45,440 --> 00:26:47,320
Speaker 1: they were specialists, like, that's what they considered.

480
00:26:47,359 --> 00:26:51,000
Speaker 3: They are highly adapted to consume bamboo. They're not you know,

481
00:26:51,040 --> 00:26:53,840
Speaker 3: they're not scavengers like black bears. They're very different than

482
00:26:53,880 --> 00:26:57,240
Speaker 3: other members of the bear family. And I think, you know,

483
00:26:57,280 --> 00:27:00,840
Speaker 3: when you really think about it, they are pretty special.

484
00:27:00,920 --> 00:27:04,480
Speaker 3: They're very rare for being a bear. So perhaps it's

485
00:27:04,560 --> 00:27:08,320
Speaker 3: not crazy that the Roosevelts weren't expecting them to be

486
00:27:08,440 --> 00:27:10,760
Speaker 3: like that. They really thought they would be predators, And

487
00:27:11,040 --> 00:27:12,679
Speaker 3: it sort of makes sense when you think about all

488
00:27:12,720 --> 00:27:15,240
Speaker 3: the other members of the bear family in comparison.

489
00:27:15,960 --> 00:27:18,560
Speaker 1: No, man, that blows my mind. Just two thousand of them.

490
00:27:18,720 --> 00:27:24,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, it's not many, and it's not many today either.

491
00:27:24,960 --> 00:27:25,600
Speaker 1: What I was.

492
00:27:26,720 --> 00:27:29,960
Speaker 2: Struck by reading this book is as they're going through,

493
00:27:30,000 --> 00:27:34,000
Speaker 2: you know, like when you think about outsiders coming into

494
00:27:34,960 --> 00:27:39,280
Speaker 2: a place in Asia or Africa looking for something, oftentimes

495
00:27:39,320 --> 00:27:43,000
Speaker 2: like what they find to be very unique or rare.

496
00:27:44,359 --> 00:27:45,880
Speaker 2: They get there and the people are like, oh, yeah,

497
00:27:45,920 --> 00:27:49,320
Speaker 2: I know what that is, but they keep going into

498
00:27:49,320 --> 00:27:53,280
Speaker 2: these villages and it's like maybe someone has seen one,

499
00:27:54,240 --> 00:27:56,760
Speaker 2: but there's like not a not It's not like they

500
00:27:56,840 --> 00:27:59,199
Speaker 2: arrive on the scene and there's a knowledge of panda

501
00:27:59,200 --> 00:28:02,239
Speaker 2: Bear's when they arrive, like it's almost as much a

502
00:28:02,280 --> 00:28:04,760
Speaker 2: mystery to the people that are sort of helping them

503
00:28:04,800 --> 00:28:06,760
Speaker 2: as it is to the Roosevelts.

504
00:28:07,160 --> 00:28:09,679
Speaker 3: That's true. Yeah, So they have this group of guides

505
00:28:09,720 --> 00:28:11,919
Speaker 3: they're working with who are kind of like the Sherpa

506
00:28:12,000 --> 00:28:13,920
Speaker 3: people of Nepal. They are the ones who are breaking

507
00:28:14,000 --> 00:28:17,520
Speaker 3: the trail ahead of them. They're making the camp sites,

508
00:28:17,600 --> 00:28:21,240
Speaker 3: they're helping them communicate, and all of these villages they're

509
00:28:21,240 --> 00:28:24,679
Speaker 3: going through, nobody knows about the panda, and they travel

510
00:28:24,720 --> 00:28:27,600
Speaker 3: a huge distance. All in all, they travel almost two

511
00:28:27,640 --> 00:28:30,600
Speaker 3: thousand miles over the course of six months. This is

512
00:28:30,640 --> 00:28:34,600
Speaker 3: a long track. So they are going first through rainforests

513
00:28:34,600 --> 00:28:37,760
Speaker 3: in me and Mar and then into very high fourteen

514
00:28:37,840 --> 00:28:40,880
Speaker 3: thousand peaks and the Himalayas, and then down through the

515
00:28:40,920 --> 00:28:44,640
Speaker 3: Tibetan Plateau. I mean, they cover an incredible range as

516
00:28:44,680 --> 00:28:48,080
Speaker 3: they're searching for the panda, and they end up having

517
00:28:48,120 --> 00:28:50,560
Speaker 3: to go to this one part of China that they've

518
00:28:50,560 --> 00:28:53,320
Speaker 3: been warned not to go to They've been told that

519
00:28:53,400 --> 00:28:56,280
Speaker 3: the people that live there are savages, that this is

520
00:28:56,400 --> 00:28:59,840
Speaker 3: not a place that's safe, and they make that choice

521
00:29:00,040 --> 00:29:03,920
Speaker 3: really out of desperation because at this point, what they

522
00:29:03,960 --> 00:29:07,160
Speaker 3: went through on the trail, it is just extreme, how

523
00:29:07,200 --> 00:29:09,400
Speaker 3: close they came to dying multiple times.

524
00:29:10,120 --> 00:29:14,120
Speaker 1: What was almost killing them. Well, first off, like lay

525
00:29:14,120 --> 00:29:16,280
Speaker 1: out a little bit about how they organized it and

526
00:29:16,680 --> 00:29:21,000
Speaker 1: sort of what the planned route was and where they

527
00:29:21,000 --> 00:29:23,160
Speaker 1: thought their highest likelihood of finding one would be.

528
00:29:24,000 --> 00:29:27,600
Speaker 3: So they thought their highest likelihood would be to go

529
00:29:27,720 --> 00:29:32,640
Speaker 3: where Joseph Milner lived, which was in western China, and

530
00:29:32,680 --> 00:29:34,800
Speaker 3: they believed it because he had been able to buy

531
00:29:34,840 --> 00:29:38,600
Speaker 3: a skin from a marketplace there. They would be able

532
00:29:38,640 --> 00:29:41,920
Speaker 3: to if they hunted in the countryside, sure find the panda.

533
00:29:42,000 --> 00:29:44,840
Speaker 3: And you know, I think what's really interesting, and you

534
00:29:44,840 --> 00:29:46,240
Speaker 3: know what I just want to go back to for

535
00:29:46,280 --> 00:29:50,200
Speaker 3: a minute, is that science and hunting is very linked

536
00:29:50,400 --> 00:29:54,160
Speaker 3: at this point in history. Scientists are hunters. You see

537
00:29:54,160 --> 00:29:55,720
Speaker 3: that with Darwin, You see that with all the great

538
00:29:55,760 --> 00:29:58,400
Speaker 3: scientists of the era, they had to be. And so

539
00:29:58,440 --> 00:30:00,480
Speaker 3: the Roosevelts, although you may not think think of them

540
00:30:00,480 --> 00:30:04,840
Speaker 3: so much as scientists, they really are bridging that gap.

541
00:30:04,920 --> 00:30:08,240
Speaker 3: They have that ability to hunt, but then they also

542
00:30:08,280 --> 00:30:11,320
Speaker 3: have the ability to learn about these animals, and so

543
00:30:11,360 --> 00:30:13,640
Speaker 3: they've spent a lot of time at the Field Museum

544
00:30:13,640 --> 00:30:17,280
Speaker 3: in Chicago really learning about how to prepare these specimens

545
00:30:17,360 --> 00:30:20,320
Speaker 3: and how to describe them in a way that's useful

546
00:30:20,360 --> 00:30:23,760
Speaker 3: for scientists. And so they're traveling with an interesting group.

547
00:30:23,760 --> 00:30:28,000
Speaker 3: They're traveling with a man named Tai Jack Young, who

548
00:30:28,120 --> 00:30:32,080
Speaker 3: is an NYU student. He was born in Hawaii. His

549
00:30:32,200 --> 00:30:35,040
Speaker 3: parents are from San Francisco and from China, so he

550
00:30:35,080 --> 00:30:39,200
Speaker 3: grew up in China. And he's hired as a translator

551
00:30:39,400 --> 00:30:41,880
Speaker 3: for the trip, but he ends up being sent to

552
00:30:42,000 --> 00:30:45,640
Speaker 3: the Field Museum and gets all of the training there.

553
00:30:45,800 --> 00:30:48,120
Speaker 3: And I was fortunate I was able to get his

554
00:30:48,320 --> 00:30:52,000
Speaker 3: unpublished autobiography as well as interviews that were done with

555
00:30:52,120 --> 00:30:55,440
Speaker 3: him in the nineteen nineties, and it's just fascinating to

556
00:30:55,800 --> 00:30:58,080
Speaker 3: he became very close friends with the Roosevelts.

557
00:30:58,480 --> 00:30:59,959
Speaker 1: He was alive in the nineteen nineties.

558
00:31:00,160 --> 00:31:03,719
Speaker 3: Yeah, he's only eighteen at the time of this expedition,

559
00:31:04,360 --> 00:31:06,640
Speaker 3: and so he was friends with the Roosevelts for years.

560
00:31:06,680 --> 00:31:09,400
Speaker 3: They were very close friends. And so to be able

561
00:31:09,440 --> 00:31:13,200
Speaker 3: to get his account was so interesting, and so he's

562
00:31:13,280 --> 00:31:15,720
Speaker 3: one of the members of this expedition, as well as

563
00:31:15,720 --> 00:31:18,040
Speaker 3: a man named Sudham Cutting, who's a naturalist from New

564
00:31:18,120 --> 00:31:23,400
Speaker 3: York who is not particularly well experienced, but is the

565
00:31:23,480 --> 00:31:26,160
Speaker 3: kind of man who'll just happy to do anything, happy

566
00:31:26,160 --> 00:31:29,440
Speaker 3: to go out hunt whatever you need. He's there. And

567
00:31:29,480 --> 00:31:32,760
Speaker 3: then they have Herbert Stevens, who is this British naturalist

568
00:31:33,040 --> 00:31:36,040
Speaker 3: who's really the real biologist of the group. He has

569
00:31:36,080 --> 00:31:40,640
Speaker 3: the training and he has had terrible luck, this poor guy,

570
00:31:41,160 --> 00:31:43,520
Speaker 3: all of these expeditions he's gone on. He's had such

571
00:31:43,520 --> 00:31:47,760
Speaker 3: a difficult time bringing specimens back because he has a

572
00:31:47,800 --> 00:31:52,920
Speaker 3: boat crash or there's other problems in transportation, and he's

573
00:31:53,080 --> 00:31:56,200
Speaker 3: just not very well respected by the scientific community because

574
00:31:56,200 --> 00:31:59,640
Speaker 3: of that. So he's pretty desperate to show that he's real,

575
00:31:59,680 --> 00:32:00,479
Speaker 3: that he do this.

576
00:32:01,560 --> 00:32:04,960
Speaker 2: I got the sense in there, like, especially with him,

577
00:32:05,400 --> 00:32:09,440
Speaker 2: that in this era of expeditions, it was it was

578
00:32:09,480 --> 00:32:13,360
Speaker 2: almost like like we think of athletes today, where it's

579
00:32:13,360 --> 00:32:15,680
Speaker 2: like you've got a few good years and you end

580
00:32:15,760 --> 00:32:18,160
Speaker 2: up on the wrong team and like your whole legacy

581
00:32:18,360 --> 00:32:21,240
Speaker 2: is in question. And so there's some guys that are

582
00:32:21,280 --> 00:32:23,800
Speaker 2: just desperate to get out there for one last chance

583
00:32:23,840 --> 00:32:27,080
Speaker 2: at like a big discovery, and it's there's almost like

584
00:32:27,120 --> 00:32:30,160
Speaker 2: a sort of gamesmanship to it, and like some guys

585
00:32:30,200 --> 00:32:33,360
Speaker 2: just sort of luck into a good expedition, but other

586
00:32:33,400 --> 00:32:36,960
Speaker 2: guys are just sort of desperately hanging on trying to

587
00:32:37,000 --> 00:32:40,800
Speaker 2: get on an expedition that that will make their name

588
00:32:40,920 --> 00:32:41,320
Speaker 2: for them.

589
00:32:41,480 --> 00:32:44,280
Speaker 3: It's so true because this was really a time and

590
00:32:44,400 --> 00:32:47,040
Speaker 3: history when you could make your name as an explorer,

591
00:32:47,080 --> 00:32:50,640
Speaker 3: you could really gain fame from doing so. And Herbert

592
00:32:50,640 --> 00:32:54,120
Speaker 3: Stevens is not necessarily someone that you would ever think

593
00:32:54,160 --> 00:32:56,600
Speaker 3: of as being famous. Certainly, most of the explorers that

594
00:32:57,080 --> 00:33:01,440
Speaker 3: did these trips then animals would not be named after them.

595
00:33:01,560 --> 00:33:05,480
Speaker 3: But this expedition is special because you have the Roosevelts.

596
00:33:06,160 --> 00:33:09,160
Speaker 3: And yeah, I loved writing about Herbert Stevens, especially because

597
00:33:09,200 --> 00:33:12,160
Speaker 3: he's he's kind of funny on the trail. He tends

598
00:33:12,240 --> 00:33:15,160
Speaker 3: to delay the group. The Roosevelts get very annoyed with him.

599
00:33:15,200 --> 00:33:17,200
Speaker 3: He gets lost the first day on the trail.

600
00:33:17,360 --> 00:33:20,640
Speaker 2: He's the one they leave behind, right, Yeah, Yeah, he's

601
00:33:20,640 --> 00:33:21,520
Speaker 2: too slow.

602
00:33:21,640 --> 00:33:23,800
Speaker 1: You know, in terms of hitting the right expedition. Just

603
00:33:23,800 --> 00:33:26,920
Speaker 1: an interesting thing about that is in our podcast The

604
00:33:27,000 --> 00:33:31,200
Speaker 1: American West with the historian Dan Flores, he talks about that,

605
00:33:31,280 --> 00:33:35,240
Speaker 1: you know, like Jefferson launched two expeditions. He had a

606
00:33:35,280 --> 00:33:38,920
Speaker 1: northern one, the corp of discoverer Lewis and Clark expedition,

607
00:33:39,000 --> 00:33:42,040
Speaker 1: and he had a Southern one which gets going and

608
00:33:42,040 --> 00:33:45,120
Speaker 1: they get intercepted by the Spanish and sent home. So

609
00:33:45,160 --> 00:33:48,200
Speaker 1: if you're thinking like who got lucky, who didn't get lucky?

610
00:33:49,040 --> 00:33:50,960
Speaker 1: No one's even hurt of the one in the South.

611
00:33:51,160 --> 00:33:51,680
Speaker 3: So true.

612
00:33:52,040 --> 00:33:54,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's just like you could have been like, what's

613
00:33:54,720 --> 00:33:56,640
Speaker 1: you know what one's going to be a greater chance

614
00:33:56,680 --> 00:33:59,440
Speaker 1: of boosting my career and you wound up being like

615
00:33:59,560 --> 00:34:02,560
Speaker 1: Lewis and Clark or the dude I can't think of,

616
00:34:02,840 --> 00:34:04,920
Speaker 1: or the dude I can't think of who is supposed

617
00:34:04,920 --> 00:34:09,480
Speaker 1: to do the same thing in the South Freeman and Custus. Yeah, yeah,

618
00:34:09,880 --> 00:34:13,040
Speaker 1: lost to time, dude, Like no one cares, No one's

619
00:34:13,120 --> 00:34:14,719
Speaker 1: heard of the guy, you know.

620
00:34:15,440 --> 00:34:18,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, certainly nobody would have put money on the Roosevelts

621
00:34:18,120 --> 00:34:20,279
Speaker 3: for this expedition. In fact, they didn't even tell their

622
00:34:20,320 --> 00:34:22,719
Speaker 3: close friends that they were going after the panda.

623
00:34:22,840 --> 00:34:25,399
Speaker 1: And how long were they fixing the go for They.

624
00:34:25,280 --> 00:34:27,600
Speaker 3: Were planning to go for six months that was there,

625
00:34:28,040 --> 00:34:29,840
Speaker 3: get done. I mean they had hoped to do the

626
00:34:29,880 --> 00:34:32,439
Speaker 3: first leg in six months and then spend another six

627
00:34:32,520 --> 00:34:35,680
Speaker 3: months going through Vietnam and going through Laos and collecting

628
00:34:35,760 --> 00:34:36,719
Speaker 3: more species there.

629
00:34:36,800 --> 00:34:39,880
Speaker 1: Got it. And just to be clear their intent, they

630
00:34:39,960 --> 00:34:43,360
Speaker 1: want to observe them, watch them, but then they're intents

631
00:34:43,400 --> 00:34:43,960
Speaker 1: to shoot some.

632
00:34:44,239 --> 00:34:47,839
Speaker 3: Absolutely, and it's it's very specific how they need to

633
00:34:47,920 --> 00:34:50,040
Speaker 3: collect the panda so that it's useful for science.

634
00:34:50,080 --> 00:34:52,080
Speaker 1: Come. So they take off from where.

635
00:34:52,840 --> 00:34:57,400
Speaker 3: So they take off from well, technically the trip starts,

636
00:34:57,440 --> 00:35:00,480
Speaker 3: of course in New York, but they end up going

637
00:35:00,520 --> 00:35:03,879
Speaker 3: through me and mar into the western side of China

638
00:35:03,920 --> 00:35:07,640
Speaker 3: into Union, and so they're going through a trail that

639
00:35:07,760 --> 00:35:10,120
Speaker 3: where this is on foot. This is on foot. So

640
00:35:10,120 --> 00:35:12,880
Speaker 3: they have mules that carry a lot of their supplies,

641
00:35:12,960 --> 00:35:16,400
Speaker 3: and there's a lot of problems with mules throughout the book, unfortunately.

642
00:35:16,960 --> 00:35:18,680
Speaker 3: But yeah, they're going on foot. So these are all

643
00:35:18,760 --> 00:35:23,120
Speaker 3: places where there are no roads for cars. It's just trails.

644
00:35:23,440 --> 00:35:27,640
Speaker 1: Huh. So even like I just can't, I wish I

645
00:35:27,719 --> 00:35:31,279
Speaker 1: understood it better that I would picture at that point

646
00:35:31,280 --> 00:35:34,239
Speaker 1: in time. I mean, we're into the twentieth century. I

647
00:35:34,280 --> 00:35:36,359
Speaker 1: would picture at that point in time like you'd get

648
00:35:36,719 --> 00:35:39,759
Speaker 1: trains and you'd kind of get within striking distance of

649
00:35:39,760 --> 00:35:40,440
Speaker 1: your objective.

650
00:35:40,800 --> 00:35:44,480
Speaker 3: It's just too remote this area they're going to. They're

651
00:35:44,520 --> 00:35:47,680
Speaker 3: sort of straddling this border between Tibet and China. A

652
00:35:47,719 --> 00:35:51,000
Speaker 3: lot of times they don't even know which country they're in. Yeah,

653
00:35:51,080 --> 00:35:53,120
Speaker 3: there's also a civil war going on that's kind of

654
00:35:53,120 --> 00:35:56,320
Speaker 3: a problem for them throughout the book. So in nineteen

655
00:35:56,360 --> 00:35:58,480
Speaker 3: twenty seven, you have the civil war that started in

656
00:35:58,560 --> 00:36:02,160
Speaker 3: China between the Nationalists government and the Communist Party, and

657
00:36:02,200 --> 00:36:04,959
Speaker 3: so that's raging around them at the same time too, and.

658
00:36:04,880 --> 00:36:07,320
Speaker 1: That probably cuts off certain avenues of approach.

659
00:36:07,840 --> 00:36:12,480
Speaker 3: It does, although the parts they're going to there there

660
00:36:12,560 --> 00:36:15,320
Speaker 3: simply are not roads. And so it's interesting throughout the

661
00:36:15,320 --> 00:36:18,520
Speaker 3: book because as they describe the trail and by the way,

662
00:36:18,520 --> 00:36:20,080
Speaker 3: it was so much fun just to go through the

663
00:36:20,160 --> 00:36:24,560
Speaker 3: Roosevelt's Field journals and how they describe things. And they

664
00:36:24,880 --> 00:36:27,959
Speaker 3: took pictures and videos on the trail as well, which

665
00:36:27,960 --> 00:36:31,359
Speaker 3: is pretty cool. And some of those pictures are of

666
00:36:31,680 --> 00:36:34,920
Speaker 3: the other people traveling the trail, and a lot of

667
00:36:34,920 --> 00:36:39,880
Speaker 3: them are moving these giant, giant packs of tea. Because

668
00:36:39,920 --> 00:36:42,400
Speaker 3: there are no roads, there's no other way to bring

669
00:36:42,520 --> 00:36:45,800
Speaker 3: goods to this part of China, except on the backs

670
00:36:45,840 --> 00:36:46,320
Speaker 3: of people.

671
00:36:46,640 --> 00:36:52,359
Speaker 1: Okay, I wish I had a I wish I had

672
00:36:52,360 --> 00:36:56,160
Speaker 1: a map of the planet Earth. Can you put up

673
00:36:56,200 --> 00:36:58,399
Speaker 1: a picture of me and Mar in China.

674
00:36:58,840 --> 00:37:01,239
Speaker 3: There is a little mask in the book too, if

675
00:37:01,280 --> 00:37:03,359
Speaker 3: you want to, If that helps. It's kind of right

676
00:37:03,360 --> 00:37:04,040
Speaker 3: in the front.

677
00:37:03,880 --> 00:37:11,240
Speaker 1: There, me and Mar. What was me and me and Ba?

678
00:37:13,840 --> 00:37:20,000
Speaker 2: So east of if you're picturing like the Indian Ocean,

679
00:37:20,000 --> 00:37:21,880
Speaker 2: it's east of India sort.

680
00:37:21,719 --> 00:37:22,680
Speaker 1: Of tucked up there.

681
00:37:22,960 --> 00:37:26,000
Speaker 2: Yes, that's right northwest southeast Asia.

682
00:37:26,600 --> 00:37:29,440
Speaker 3: Yes, that's a good way to put it. In northwest

683
00:37:29,440 --> 00:37:30,120
Speaker 3: southeast Age.

684
00:37:31,440 --> 00:37:33,520
Speaker 1: You need it super detailed. Do you want in context

685
00:37:33,719 --> 00:37:39,000
Speaker 1: like the surrounding, in context with everything else? Okay, like

686
00:37:39,120 --> 00:37:41,799
Speaker 1: that little square dude I went to high school with

687
00:37:42,200 --> 00:37:47,440
Speaker 1: lives in Me and Mar maybe his little spottle shoulder. Okay,

688
00:37:48,600 --> 00:37:50,080
Speaker 1: all right, let me just get my I get my

689
00:37:50,120 --> 00:37:54,799
Speaker 1: head straight here. So they're crossing me and Mar.

690
00:37:55,280 --> 00:37:59,960
Speaker 3: Yes, So they're they're going from there's kind of this

691
00:37:59,800 --> 00:38:03,000
Speaker 3: is called the Bama Route through Burma, and then they're

692
00:38:03,000 --> 00:38:04,960
Speaker 3: going into Union and they call it sort of the

693
00:38:05,000 --> 00:38:09,600
Speaker 3: back door into China. Yeah, and then from there they're

694
00:38:09,640 --> 00:38:13,200
Speaker 3: moving north up through Sichuan and then more into central China,

695
00:38:13,280 --> 00:38:18,320
Speaker 3: and then they eventually end up coming back around through Vietnam.

696
00:38:18,719 --> 00:38:23,920
Speaker 1: Yeah. So if people are picturing there's like a large

697
00:38:24,239 --> 00:38:29,759
Speaker 1: peninsula that contains Laos, Thailand, Vietnam, Cambodia, they're kind of

698
00:38:29,760 --> 00:38:32,840
Speaker 1: crossing the top of that peninsula to get into the

699
00:38:33,200 --> 00:38:35,960
Speaker 1: into the mountains of western China.

700
00:38:36,400 --> 00:38:36,839
Speaker 3: That's right.

701
00:38:38,000 --> 00:38:39,719
Speaker 1: I would never picture that. That's how you would need

702
00:38:39,760 --> 00:38:44,279
Speaker 1: to do that at that point in time. I mean,

703
00:38:44,320 --> 00:38:48,000
Speaker 1: I don't know, I don't know anything about that area.

704
00:38:48,840 --> 00:38:50,320
Speaker 1: So what kind of like what kind of happens to

705
00:38:50,400 --> 00:38:53,279
Speaker 1: them along that route then? So I mean they may

706
00:38:53,320 --> 00:38:55,279
Speaker 1: not be having adventures left and right.

707
00:38:55,160 --> 00:38:58,319
Speaker 3: They do. Yeah, So they are able to collect an

708
00:38:58,360 --> 00:39:01,040
Speaker 3: incredible amount of animals on this First of all, they

709
00:39:01,520 --> 00:39:05,080
Speaker 3: are able to collect five thousand bird skins, two thousand

710
00:39:05,160 --> 00:39:08,960
Speaker 3: small mammals, forty large mammals. I mean that's a that's

711
00:39:09,000 --> 00:39:12,359
Speaker 3: a damn good hunting trip, right, Yeah. And so they

712
00:39:12,400 --> 00:39:15,560
Speaker 3: are collecting all of these interesting species. They find nineteen

713
00:39:15,600 --> 00:39:20,080
Speaker 3: new species on the trail. But they're also interacting with

714
00:39:20,280 --> 00:39:23,440
Speaker 3: a plethora of cultures and that was fun part of

715
00:39:23,480 --> 00:39:26,640
Speaker 3: the book too. So they go into these areas that

716
00:39:26,719 --> 00:39:31,200
Speaker 3: are autonomous regions that are mostly Tibetans that live there

717
00:39:31,239 --> 00:39:35,839
Speaker 3: and they're ruled by Tibetan lamas. And so I talk

718
00:39:35,880 --> 00:39:39,000
Speaker 3: in the book quite a bit about this, the section

719
00:39:39,080 --> 00:39:42,120
Speaker 3: of Tibetan Buddhism. And at that time you had all

720
00:39:42,160 --> 00:39:46,000
Speaker 3: of these Lama sarries that were along the route, and

721
00:39:46,520 --> 00:39:48,560
Speaker 3: there were men and women who were lamas who were

722
00:39:48,560 --> 00:39:50,960
Speaker 3: brought there when their children and then they grow up

723
00:39:51,000 --> 00:39:52,000
Speaker 3: in the Lama sarries.

724
00:39:52,239 --> 00:39:55,520
Speaker 1: Just to connect that the people today, like you're like,

725
00:39:55,680 --> 00:39:57,800
Speaker 1: you know, just regular old Americans going to hear of

726
00:39:57,840 --> 00:40:03,040
Speaker 1: the dolli lama when you say lamas, yes, and stems

727
00:40:03,040 --> 00:40:03,800
Speaker 1: from that same.

728
00:40:03,680 --> 00:40:07,920
Speaker 2: And Alamas Sri is like a monastery with alama exactly.

729
00:40:08,000 --> 00:40:12,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, yes, it sounds funny when you put it that way, right, right.

730
00:40:12,239 --> 00:40:15,399
Speaker 1: And that's like the that's the governing system it is.

731
00:40:15,520 --> 00:40:19,880
Speaker 3: And so you have Lama rulers of these regions and

732
00:40:19,920 --> 00:40:21,480
Speaker 3: so one of the places they go to is called

733
00:40:21,480 --> 00:40:24,560
Speaker 3: the Kingdom of Mulai. And at that time it was

734
00:40:25,160 --> 00:40:28,320
Speaker 3: kind of this mythologized place that had been in national

735
00:40:28,320 --> 00:40:32,040
Speaker 3: geographic and so people knew somewhat about it. And so

736
00:40:32,120 --> 00:40:37,600
Speaker 3: the Roosevelts go there and they stay with this man

737
00:40:37,640 --> 00:40:40,560
Speaker 3: who is kind of the eastern ruler of this region,

738
00:40:40,600 --> 00:40:41,880
Speaker 3: and they stay in his house and it's called the

739
00:40:41,880 --> 00:40:44,880
Speaker 3: house of the Prince because his son is going to

740
00:40:44,960 --> 00:40:47,120
Speaker 3: be a lama and will one day be the king

741
00:40:47,160 --> 00:40:51,520
Speaker 3: of Mulai. But because lamas do not marry, they do

742
00:40:51,560 --> 00:40:55,120
Speaker 3: not have children. It's always passed down through the family.

743
00:40:56,800 --> 00:41:00,120
Speaker 1: These guys aren't like warlords either, some of them are.

744
00:41:00,000 --> 00:41:03,279
Speaker 3: They are, yeah, So there certainly was fighting. Many of

745
00:41:03,320 --> 00:41:06,919
Speaker 3: these autonomous regions were fighting the Chinese for their independence,

746
00:41:07,440 --> 00:41:10,600
Speaker 3: and so Tibet at that time the Dalai Lama head

747
00:41:10,640 --> 00:41:15,520
Speaker 3: proclaimed independence for the country. I believe it's in nineteen twelve,

748
00:41:15,880 --> 00:41:19,720
Speaker 3: And so certainly many of these regions were very fiercely

749
00:41:19,760 --> 00:41:23,200
Speaker 3: independent and very keen to protect their lands.

750
00:41:23,320 --> 00:41:26,200
Speaker 1: Got it. But they're able to, like they're not at

751
00:41:26,320 --> 00:41:30,279
Speaker 1: risk of they're not at risk of like having an

752
00:41:30,280 --> 00:41:31,680
Speaker 1: interaction that goes wrong.

753
00:41:32,239 --> 00:41:35,200
Speaker 3: Oh, they absolutely are, they are, yes, And so they

754
00:41:35,200 --> 00:41:38,080
Speaker 3: bring with them all of these interesting gifts to kind

755
00:41:38,120 --> 00:41:40,840
Speaker 3: of introduce themselves. So when they go into the Kingdom

756
00:41:40,880 --> 00:41:45,520
Speaker 3: of Mulai, they have a turquoise bowler hat, they have knives,

757
00:41:45,560 --> 00:41:47,600
Speaker 3: they have rifles, they have all kinds of interesting things

758
00:41:47,640 --> 00:41:49,279
Speaker 3: to present because they're just not sure what people are

759
00:41:49,280 --> 00:41:51,520
Speaker 3: going to like. They don't know how they're going to

760
00:41:51,560 --> 00:41:55,640
Speaker 3: present themselves. And so they explain to this ruler of

761
00:41:55,719 --> 00:41:58,960
Speaker 3: Mulai that they are the sons of President Theodore Roosevelt.

762
00:41:59,480 --> 00:42:03,040
Speaker 3: And he said, as who's that, He has no idea.

763
00:42:04,000 --> 00:42:08,000
Speaker 4: How about a bowler hat.

764
00:42:08,600 --> 00:42:10,080
Speaker 1: Where you could pick one of the other the bowler

765
00:42:10,120 --> 00:42:10,800
Speaker 1: head of the rifle.

766
00:42:11,160 --> 00:42:13,920
Speaker 3: But what I learned when I was reading Ted and

767
00:42:14,000 --> 00:42:16,480
Speaker 3: Kermit's journals was that this was actually a very freeing

768
00:42:16,520 --> 00:42:19,600
Speaker 3: experience for them. I mean, imagine that they have found

769
00:42:19,640 --> 00:42:21,600
Speaker 3: a part of the world where they are not known

770
00:42:21,840 --> 00:42:24,640
Speaker 3: only by their relation to their father, and they actually

771
00:42:24,680 --> 00:42:28,479
Speaker 3: become close friends. They enjoy each other's company, They show

772
00:42:28,520 --> 00:42:33,760
Speaker 3: pictures of their families, They have the next King of Mulai,

773
00:42:33,760 --> 00:42:36,000
Speaker 3: who was at that time just a toddler running around,

774
00:42:36,560 --> 00:42:39,239
Speaker 3: and it's it's it's really interesting to see how those

775
00:42:39,239 --> 00:42:42,560
Speaker 3: interactions went along and how they got along with people.

776
00:42:43,280 --> 00:42:45,000
Speaker 1: And along the way, like here they are on the

777
00:42:45,080 --> 00:42:48,600
Speaker 1: right continent, kind of the right general neck of the woods.

778
00:42:49,160 --> 00:42:51,319
Speaker 1: But as Randall's saying, like along the way, they're be like, hey,

779
00:42:51,400 --> 00:42:53,560
Speaker 1: y'all seen any pandas and people are like, oh, what

780
00:42:55,480 --> 00:42:57,839
Speaker 1: you know, but it's kind of surprising. But you can

781
00:42:57,880 --> 00:43:01,160
Speaker 1: almost think you can think of analogs from here that

782
00:43:01,440 --> 00:43:03,920
Speaker 1: you let's say you were different bear. Let's say you're

783
00:43:04,000 --> 00:43:07,400
Speaker 1: very curious about you were very curious about grizzly bears.

784
00:43:07,800 --> 00:43:10,920
Speaker 1: I mean, you could hit Saint Louis right, a place

785
00:43:11,000 --> 00:43:14,640
Speaker 1: that people's perception would be at that time, the gateway

786
00:43:14,680 --> 00:43:17,200
Speaker 1: to the West, and you could say, hey, I'm here

787
00:43:17,200 --> 00:43:20,399
Speaker 1: for the grizzly bears, and you'd find people in Saint

788
00:43:20,440 --> 00:43:25,680
Speaker 1: Louis that are like, what, yeah, that's it'd be earlier,

789
00:43:25,719 --> 00:43:28,160
Speaker 1: it'd be fifty years earlier, but like, of course they'd

790
00:43:28,160 --> 00:43:29,279
Speaker 1: be like, I don't know.

791
00:43:29,520 --> 00:43:31,480
Speaker 3: And then you would describe it. You would try to say, hey,

792
00:43:31,560 --> 00:43:32,719
Speaker 3: this is what they look like, and.

793
00:43:32,680 --> 00:43:35,120
Speaker 1: People, yeah, yeah, they'd be like yeah, it kind of

794
00:43:35,200 --> 00:43:37,840
Speaker 1: rings a bell, but I don't know, you know whatever.

795
00:43:38,080 --> 00:43:40,000
Speaker 1: You just you could picture that, or or you make

796
00:43:40,040 --> 00:43:44,640
Speaker 1: it into interior Alaska and you're like, I'm curious about

797
00:43:44,640 --> 00:43:46,880
Speaker 1: the polar bears. Yeah, and in the interior they're like,

798
00:43:47,280 --> 00:43:49,440
Speaker 1: I have no idea you're talking about. You're close, but

799
00:43:49,480 --> 00:43:50,760
Speaker 1: you're not exactly.

800
00:43:50,960 --> 00:43:52,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, it's a lot.

801
00:43:52,560 --> 00:43:54,719
Speaker 1: In that way. It's sort of easy to imagine, but

802
00:43:54,800 --> 00:43:57,680
Speaker 1: it also seemed like it's like a big white and

803
00:43:57,760 --> 00:44:04,120
Speaker 1: black super yeah bear, it lives around here.

804
00:44:04,760 --> 00:44:07,560
Speaker 2: It is more like describing a unicorn than a grizzly bear.

805
00:44:08,320 --> 00:44:11,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, So where do they get, Like, at what point

806
00:44:11,680 --> 00:44:15,920
Speaker 1: do they start to get some assurance, you know, like

807
00:44:15,960 --> 00:44:17,759
Speaker 1: some sense that we're on the right track here.

808
00:44:18,120 --> 00:44:21,080
Speaker 3: Oh, it just takes forever, and there are a lot

809
00:44:21,120 --> 00:44:24,000
Speaker 3: of struggles on that path. So you know, at some

810
00:44:24,120 --> 00:44:27,480
Speaker 3: point they get robbed by bandits. At another point, they're

811
00:44:27,520 --> 00:44:30,600
Speaker 3: in the Himalayas and all of their mules just disappear

812
00:44:30,600 --> 00:44:33,399
Speaker 3: in the night. That actually happens twice, and so they

813
00:44:33,440 --> 00:44:36,640
Speaker 3: lose all of their foods stolen. No, it's just so

814
00:44:36,960 --> 00:44:41,160
Speaker 3: cold that the mules decide that they have to leave. Yeah.

815
00:44:41,840 --> 00:44:46,640
Speaker 3: And then another point they suffer from horrible altitude sickness.

816
00:44:47,440 --> 00:44:50,200
Speaker 3: They are trying to hike at night and they're caught

817
00:44:50,200 --> 00:44:53,359
Speaker 3: in this blizzard, and that is the night that they

818
00:44:53,360 --> 00:44:56,200
Speaker 3: describe as the very worst of their lives, where they

819
00:44:56,239 --> 00:44:58,759
Speaker 3: came incredibly close to death. It's very lucky that they

820
00:44:58,760 --> 00:45:03,799
Speaker 3: start from exposure, and so it's just one struggle after

821
00:45:03,800 --> 00:45:06,520
Speaker 3: a next in this book, and so it's really not

822
00:45:06,719 --> 00:45:10,000
Speaker 3: until very far along on the expedition where they say, Okay,

823
00:45:10,040 --> 00:45:12,720
Speaker 3: we're going to go to this one area that's called

824
00:45:12,920 --> 00:45:14,840
Speaker 3: the Land of the Eye or the people call it

825
00:45:14,920 --> 00:45:17,719
Speaker 3: Lolo Land. And everyone has told them that this is

826
00:45:17,719 --> 00:45:19,880
Speaker 3: where the savages are, this is where they're going to

827
00:45:19,920 --> 00:45:22,480
Speaker 3: be attacked, they're going to be killed. They should not

828
00:45:22,600 --> 00:45:26,040
Speaker 3: go to this one part of China, but they decide

829
00:45:26,560 --> 00:45:28,480
Speaker 3: it's worth the risk. They want to try to find

830
00:45:28,480 --> 00:45:28,960
Speaker 3: the pandemic.

831
00:45:29,000 --> 00:45:33,279
Speaker 1: And they don't have any idea. Yeah. I mentioned like

832
00:45:33,360 --> 00:45:35,680
Speaker 1: Lewis and Clark expedition, right, they have an idea where

833
00:45:35,480 --> 00:45:39,320
Speaker 1: they're able to defend themselves. Yeah right, I mean they're armed,

834
00:45:39,960 --> 00:45:42,560
Speaker 1: they're military personnel. Like they have an idea that it

835
00:45:42,640 --> 00:45:44,719
Speaker 1: might come down to a fight and will fight. But

836
00:45:44,760 --> 00:45:47,080
Speaker 1: these guys that can't be in their back pocket, right,

837
00:45:47,120 --> 00:45:49,279
Speaker 1: like the idea if they get in trouble, they're just

838
00:45:49,320 --> 00:45:52,200
Speaker 1: in trouble. Like they're not holding out hope that they're

839
00:45:52,200 --> 00:45:54,560
Speaker 1: going to like engage militarily.

840
00:45:55,200 --> 00:45:59,400
Speaker 3: No, that is absolutely not their hope. And there's some

841
00:45:59,520 --> 00:46:03,120
Speaker 3: interesting parts along the trail where things do get pretty dicey.

842
00:46:03,200 --> 00:46:06,239
Speaker 3: There's one great moment with Jack where the expedition has

843
00:46:06,280 --> 00:46:08,960
Speaker 3: to divide for a while and he sees that there's

844
00:46:08,960 --> 00:46:11,640
Speaker 3: a group of bandits ahead on the trail, and he

845
00:46:11,880 --> 00:46:15,960
Speaker 3: ends up just being really casual walking by pretending as

846
00:46:15,960 --> 00:46:18,360
Speaker 3: if nothing is wrong and gets away with it. Is

847
00:46:18,400 --> 00:46:20,719
Speaker 3: the crazy part. So there are some really kind of

848
00:46:20,719 --> 00:46:22,719
Speaker 3: interesting moments like that where they're sort of able to

849
00:46:22,719 --> 00:46:27,000
Speaker 3: bluff their way through, and other moments where you have

850
00:46:27,480 --> 00:46:30,480
Speaker 3: a group of guides who are Another interesting part of

851
00:46:30,480 --> 00:46:32,680
Speaker 3: this is that half of the guides on the trip

852
00:46:32,719 --> 00:46:37,000
Speaker 3: were women. There were a number of women who served

853
00:46:37,000 --> 00:46:41,000
Speaker 3: in this role. It was certainly one that paid well,

854
00:46:41,040 --> 00:46:43,640
Speaker 3: it was one that gave a lot of independence, and

855
00:46:43,680 --> 00:46:45,960
Speaker 3: so you can imagine that it was very prized for

856
00:46:46,040 --> 00:46:48,480
Speaker 3: both men and women. And so there's one point where

857
00:46:48,520 --> 00:46:51,200
Speaker 3: you have guides that are women that are head on

858
00:46:51,200 --> 00:46:54,600
Speaker 3: the trail that end up scaring away some bandits as well.

859
00:46:54,640 --> 00:46:57,160
Speaker 3: So they certainly were able to have some backup from

860
00:46:57,160 --> 00:47:00,560
Speaker 3: their guides. But what we see is that even when

861
00:47:00,560 --> 00:47:04,400
Speaker 3: they're in positions where the Roosevelts are really in danger

862
00:47:04,600 --> 00:47:07,920
Speaker 3: and where they should feel more threatened, they end up

863
00:47:08,160 --> 00:47:11,759
Speaker 3: always taking the calm route, always trying to give the

864
00:47:11,760 --> 00:47:15,160
Speaker 3: bowler hats, give the knives, give the gifts, and make friends.

865
00:47:15,280 --> 00:47:17,839
Speaker 3: And I'm sure that those are skills they learn from

866
00:47:17,840 --> 00:47:18,279
Speaker 3: their dad.

867
00:47:20,040 --> 00:47:22,840
Speaker 1: So these guys that people tell them, that warn them against,

868
00:47:22,920 --> 00:47:27,560
Speaker 1: what is their their final act to go to this area?

869
00:47:28,640 --> 00:47:31,440
Speaker 1: How do these people live? Like kind of like sketch

870
00:47:31,440 --> 00:47:33,359
Speaker 1: out what their sort of lifestyle is.

871
00:47:33,920 --> 00:47:36,439
Speaker 3: So these are the people, and they live in these

872
00:47:36,480 --> 00:47:40,719
Speaker 3: remote villages in the mountainous regions of central China. They

873
00:47:41,280 --> 00:47:45,319
Speaker 3: have a lot of animosity towards the Chinese, and they

874
00:47:45,480 --> 00:47:47,840
Speaker 3: pretty much tend to keep to themselves. And so first

875
00:47:47,920 --> 00:47:51,360
Speaker 3: when they meet the Roosevelts, they're very suspicious because the

876
00:47:51,440 --> 00:47:54,520
Speaker 3: Roosevelts have these long beards and they're kind of scraggly looking.

877
00:47:54,560 --> 00:47:57,680
Speaker 3: They don't really look like important men at all. And

878
00:47:57,719 --> 00:48:01,600
Speaker 3: they're worried that the Roosevelts are Catholic priests that are

879
00:48:01,719 --> 00:48:06,200
Speaker 3: come to be missionaries, and so they're very upset. Yes,

880
00:48:06,320 --> 00:48:09,560
Speaker 3: and so it sort of takes some convincing. No, they're

881
00:48:09,600 --> 00:48:11,520
Speaker 3: not here to proselytize.

882
00:48:16,160 --> 00:48:17,040
Speaker 1: It's not what you think.

883
00:48:18,840 --> 00:48:22,520
Speaker 3: But what happens is that the people do not hunt panda,

884
00:48:22,560 --> 00:48:24,840
Speaker 3: so they know about the panda. They finally found a

885
00:48:24,840 --> 00:48:27,319
Speaker 3: group of people that know about the panda, but they

886
00:48:27,360 --> 00:48:29,200
Speaker 3: do not hunt them, and they try to explain to

887
00:48:29,239 --> 00:48:33,480
Speaker 3: the Roosevelts, these are gentle creatures. We don't hunt them,

888
00:48:33,600 --> 00:48:37,040
Speaker 3: and they are hunters. But they are hunters absolutely.

889
00:48:37,320 --> 00:48:41,279
Speaker 1: And they've made like even though they've come to some

890
00:48:41,360 --> 00:48:47,480
Speaker 1: kind of cultural taboo system or whatever where like here

891
00:48:47,480 --> 00:48:49,719
Speaker 1: it is it would be good to eat. They're available,

892
00:48:49,760 --> 00:48:51,240
Speaker 1: but we just like we don't.

893
00:48:51,560 --> 00:48:54,759
Speaker 3: Yes, And the results are pretty skeptical because they think,

894
00:48:55,680 --> 00:48:58,480
Speaker 3: why wouldn't you These skins are so rare you can

895
00:48:58,520 --> 00:49:01,800
Speaker 3: find them. Absolutely no, you would make so much money

896
00:49:02,120 --> 00:49:05,200
Speaker 3: if you sold them, And so they don't really understand it.

897
00:49:05,719 --> 00:49:08,640
Speaker 3: And I think it's one of those things where if

898
00:49:08,680 --> 00:49:10,920
Speaker 3: you know what a panda is like, then it makes

899
00:49:10,960 --> 00:49:13,560
Speaker 3: a little bit more sense, right, But they don't know.

900
00:49:13,640 --> 00:49:16,480
Speaker 3: It's hard for them to even comprehend the panda as

901
00:49:16,480 --> 00:49:19,719
Speaker 3: a gentle creature. And so after a lot of convincing,

902
00:49:19,840 --> 00:49:22,760
Speaker 3: the people agree to bring the Roosevelts on a hunt

903
00:49:22,760 --> 00:49:26,080
Speaker 3: with them. And the reason for this is that they

904
00:49:26,080 --> 00:49:28,000
Speaker 3: really don't think they're going to find a panda because

905
00:49:28,080 --> 00:49:30,600
Speaker 3: even for them, it's difficult to find one. Oh, I see,

906
00:49:30,719 --> 00:49:33,319
Speaker 3: it's very rare. For them to even encounter them. I mean,

907
00:49:33,360 --> 00:49:35,880
Speaker 3: they can count on one hand how many times they

908
00:49:35,880 --> 00:49:38,840
Speaker 3: have seen them, and they you know, they have hunted

909
00:49:38,880 --> 00:49:42,359
Speaker 3: them previously, but it's always been when a panda has

910
00:49:42,760 --> 00:49:45,399
Speaker 3: you know, been in a village or sort of gone

911
00:49:45,440 --> 00:49:48,120
Speaker 3: after an aviary or something like that where it was

912
00:49:48,239 --> 00:49:52,239
Speaker 3: or apiary, sorry, not aviary where the panda was, you know,

913
00:49:52,760 --> 00:49:55,080
Speaker 3: at some point threatening them, and that was has only

914
00:49:55,120 --> 00:49:57,640
Speaker 3: happened twice before, is what they told the Roosevelts. So

915
00:49:57,719 --> 00:50:00,640
Speaker 3: this is certainly a very rare thing thing. And so

916
00:50:00,680 --> 00:50:03,440
Speaker 3: they figure, Okay, well it's about to be rainy season,

917
00:50:03,880 --> 00:50:05,399
Speaker 3: we're not going to be able to be gone long.

918
00:50:05,480 --> 00:50:08,160
Speaker 3: We'll take them out, we'll find nothing, we'll get some

919
00:50:08,200 --> 00:50:09,920
Speaker 3: money for efforts, and then this will be done.

920
00:50:12,680 --> 00:50:15,279
Speaker 1: Can we hit a couple of biometrics on pandas sure?

921
00:50:16,000 --> 00:50:17,360
Speaker 1: What are we talking about? How many pounds is the

922
00:50:17,360 --> 00:50:17,759
Speaker 1: pana bear?

923
00:50:20,719 --> 00:50:24,080
Speaker 3: Man? I know that, and I just it's lost my brain.

924
00:50:24,840 --> 00:50:25,680
Speaker 3: I can't remember.

925
00:50:29,920 --> 00:50:31,600
Speaker 2: You say five hundred pounds?

926
00:50:31,760 --> 00:50:32,600
Speaker 1: No, I don't know.

927
00:50:32,920 --> 00:50:36,279
Speaker 5: We'll go two to three, okay, I can't remember the

928
00:50:36,440 --> 00:50:41,240
Speaker 5: National Zoo weighing up to two hundred and fifty pounds.

929
00:50:42,120 --> 00:50:47,920
Speaker 5: That sounds about right, rarely reach two ndred.

930
00:50:47,800 --> 00:50:49,799
Speaker 1: Without actually saying two to fifty. I said from two

931
00:50:49,840 --> 00:50:50,120
Speaker 1: to three.

932
00:50:50,280 --> 00:50:52,120
Speaker 2: I think, I guess I'm just thinking of all the hair.

933
00:50:52,520 --> 00:50:53,920
Speaker 3: You know, they're very fluffy.

934
00:50:54,040 --> 00:50:59,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, And then they don't den or do they den?

935
00:50:59,200 --> 00:51:03,120
Speaker 3: They don't hybrid, so they it's you know, even as

936
00:51:03,160 --> 00:51:06,000
Speaker 3: the results are out there there, they are really questioning

937
00:51:06,040 --> 00:51:08,840
Speaker 3: whether the panda are a bear because they can tell

938
00:51:08,960 --> 00:51:11,120
Speaker 3: as they're kind of tracking them through the woods that

939
00:51:11,120 --> 00:51:12,920
Speaker 3: these are not animals that would hibernate.

940
00:51:13,480 --> 00:51:16,680
Speaker 1: Okay, and then what's their sort of Do they spend

941
00:51:16,680 --> 00:51:18,280
Speaker 1: a lot of time with their cubs like a normal

942
00:51:18,440 --> 00:51:19,480
Speaker 1: like other bear species.

943
00:51:19,520 --> 00:51:21,480
Speaker 3: They do. They spend a long time with their cubs,

944
00:51:21,480 --> 00:51:25,799
Speaker 3: but after that they're very solitary animals, so they do

945
00:51:25,840 --> 00:51:28,000
Speaker 3: not spend time with each other. They kind of have

946
00:51:28,080 --> 00:51:31,560
Speaker 3: their own territories, and they end up communicating with each

947
00:51:31,560 --> 00:51:36,239
Speaker 3: other through through scratches on the bamboo and then through

948
00:51:36,320 --> 00:51:40,080
Speaker 3: rubbing their glands on these patches, and so a female

949
00:51:40,239 --> 00:51:43,920
Speaker 3: will learn of a male that she's going to possibly

950
00:51:44,000 --> 00:51:47,279
Speaker 3: mate with through that smell. It's really a main way

951
00:51:47,280 --> 00:51:49,960
Speaker 3: that they communicate with each other. And when you think

952
00:51:49,960 --> 00:51:51,319
Speaker 3: about it, they don't really have a lot of other

953
00:51:51,360 --> 00:51:54,080
Speaker 3: ways to communicate because they don't have a lot of

954
00:51:54,120 --> 00:51:58,399
Speaker 3: expression in their faces like other bears, and they are

955
00:51:58,440 --> 00:52:02,480
Speaker 3: so isolated that really it's only through that those scratches,

956
00:52:02,600 --> 00:52:03,680
Speaker 3: through that rubbing.

957
00:52:03,680 --> 00:52:05,399
Speaker 1: They do they have any vocalizations.

958
00:52:05,400 --> 00:52:07,920
Speaker 5: I'm sorry, just when you say the scratching, is that

959
00:52:07,960 --> 00:52:11,839
Speaker 5: a visual thing, it's like they leave a sign and

960
00:52:11,880 --> 00:52:12,640
Speaker 5: then well.

961
00:52:12,520 --> 00:52:15,480
Speaker 3: It's mostly how they rub their glands on the scratches.

962
00:52:16,080 --> 00:52:21,040
Speaker 3: But yeah, it's it's absolutely that's amazing if they're like, oh,

963
00:52:21,120 --> 00:52:22,560
Speaker 3: look the sign.

964
00:52:22,440 --> 00:52:25,640
Speaker 1: Of But I would surprise that because bears use scratch

965
00:52:25,719 --> 00:52:29,880
Speaker 1: trees like prominent like prominent trees or trees like you know,

966
00:52:29,960 --> 00:52:35,759
Speaker 1: like whatever two canyons come together, prominent travel ways they'll mark,

967
00:52:36,160 --> 00:52:38,360
Speaker 1: they'll physically markin trees and they rub it too, you know.

968
00:52:39,640 --> 00:52:41,960
Speaker 1: And then any kind of calls they make, they don't.

969
00:52:42,200 --> 00:52:43,720
Speaker 3: They don't make. They're very quiet.

970
00:52:46,080 --> 00:52:50,880
Speaker 2: Unfortunately, No, even if they did vocalize, it probably wouldn't

971
00:52:50,880 --> 00:52:53,720
Speaker 2: sound and be like man, something really.

972
00:52:55,080 --> 00:52:57,880
Speaker 1: Now, it's as chill as they are. As chill as

973
00:52:57,920 --> 00:53:00,680
Speaker 1: they are. Do the males, well, the male throw down

974
00:53:01,440 --> 00:53:02,440
Speaker 1: like over a female.

975
00:53:03,040 --> 00:53:05,759
Speaker 3: It has not been observed in the wild.

976
00:53:06,480 --> 00:53:10,080
Speaker 1: Always chill, very chill, like they're doped up.

977
00:53:12,200 --> 00:53:14,839
Speaker 2: Like that. Yeah.

978
00:53:15,080 --> 00:53:17,719
Speaker 3: Yeah, so that the Roosevelts end up describing them as

979
00:53:17,760 --> 00:53:20,600
Speaker 3: a gentleman. That's how they put it. They're gentlemanly.

980
00:53:21,640 --> 00:53:25,840
Speaker 1: But do they Okay, if you roll up on a panda, Okay,

981
00:53:26,360 --> 00:53:29,480
Speaker 1: it's isolated. And what elevation are we talking about? Like

982
00:53:30,040 --> 00:53:31,839
Speaker 1: where are they at in the Himalaya? How high?

983
00:53:32,000 --> 00:53:34,799
Speaker 3: So they had been at these very high peaks, but

984
00:53:34,840 --> 00:53:37,840
Speaker 3: now they've come down. They've come down below the Tibetan plateau.

985
00:53:37,960 --> 00:53:40,279
Speaker 3: So we're no longer at these like snowy high people.

986
00:53:40,280 --> 00:53:42,799
Speaker 1: Okay, So that was that was they were up there

987
00:53:43,080 --> 00:53:45,520
Speaker 1: because if they needed to travel through the area, they weren't.

988
00:53:45,680 --> 00:53:46,600
Speaker 1: They weren't searching.

989
00:53:47,080 --> 00:53:49,279
Speaker 3: I mean they were still searching because they weren't sure

990
00:53:49,320 --> 00:53:50,120
Speaker 3: where the panda was.

991
00:53:50,160 --> 00:53:52,279
Speaker 2: I mean, they have like no idea where to look.

992
00:53:52,880 --> 00:53:55,200
Speaker 2: That's That's what I thought was really fascinating about the

993
00:53:55,239 --> 00:53:59,000
Speaker 2: whole arc of the journey is the journeys never really

994
00:53:59,000 --> 00:54:01,839
Speaker 2: going anywhere. I mean, and they're they're they're just sort

995
00:54:01,840 --> 00:54:03,120
Speaker 2: of clueless the whole time.

996
00:54:03,440 --> 00:54:05,440
Speaker 1: I know guys like that, I know guys hunt like that.

997
00:54:05,480 --> 00:54:08,480
Speaker 2: I Mean, I've been guilty of it myself, but you

998
00:54:08,560 --> 00:54:10,440
Speaker 2: never like get the sense like Okay, now we're on

999
00:54:10,480 --> 00:54:12,600
Speaker 2: the trail. Now we're getting warm, Now we're getting warmer.

1000
00:54:12,640 --> 00:54:14,760
Speaker 2: It's like they just all of a sudden, these guys

1001
00:54:14,800 --> 00:54:20,040
Speaker 2: take them out, and it's like it's like, yeah, yeah, okay.

1002
00:54:20,160 --> 00:54:23,279
Speaker 3: There's so much desperation and desire in this hunt. You

1003
00:54:23,320 --> 00:54:25,600
Speaker 3: can really feel it when you read through their journals.

1004
00:54:25,760 --> 00:54:27,680
Speaker 3: They want it so much, and the clock is ticking,

1005
00:54:27,760 --> 00:54:29,120
Speaker 3: and the clock is absolutely ticking.

1006
00:54:29,200 --> 00:54:32,160
Speaker 1: And where they are is so obviously it's a bunch.

1007
00:54:32,200 --> 00:54:34,840
Speaker 1: It's a bamboo forest, but it's like rugged steep country.

1008
00:54:34,920 --> 00:54:35,840
Speaker 1: It is mountainous.

1009
00:54:36,040 --> 00:54:38,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, so it's mountainous, so it's not high Himalaya's peaks,

1010
00:54:38,960 --> 00:54:42,080
Speaker 3: but it is it's very difficult to hike through yep.

1011
00:54:43,200 --> 00:54:45,040
Speaker 1: And so when these guys take them out to look,

1012
00:54:45,200 --> 00:54:47,600
Speaker 1: they take them to like some spots they run into them,

1013
00:54:48,040 --> 00:54:49,520
Speaker 1: but there's not like herds of.

1014
00:54:49,520 --> 00:54:55,040
Speaker 3: Pandas, No, there are no Yeah, so we can imagine

1015
00:54:55,200 --> 00:54:58,520
Speaker 3: that at the moment when they finally see a bear

1016
00:54:58,640 --> 00:55:02,040
Speaker 3: print in the snow, it's in the snow. Yeah, it's

1017
00:55:02,200 --> 00:55:05,600
Speaker 3: very exciting when that happens, and it's a it's a

1018
00:55:05,640 --> 00:55:07,319
Speaker 3: really big moment in the book, and it's a big

1019
00:55:07,320 --> 00:55:10,280
Speaker 3: moment for them because they are so excited. The Roosevelts

1020
00:55:10,280 --> 00:55:13,560
Speaker 3: are finally we're doing this, We're going to get this panda,

1021
00:55:14,000 --> 00:55:17,200
Speaker 3: and all of the hunters around them are like, oh no,

1022
00:55:17,480 --> 00:55:19,560
Speaker 3: I don't want to go. I'm not doing this. We

1023
00:55:19,640 --> 00:55:22,040
Speaker 3: can't keep going, and they have to because it winds

1024
00:55:22,160 --> 00:55:23,640
Speaker 3: because they don't want to kill a pan they.

1025
00:55:23,600 --> 00:55:24,560
Speaker 2: Didn't think they'd find one.

1026
00:55:24,880 --> 00:55:28,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, Randall, how are you contradicting the author?

1027
00:55:31,200 --> 00:55:33,920
Speaker 2: Yes, no, no, this is what you're saying earlier, like

1028
00:55:33,960 --> 00:55:36,040
Speaker 2: the the the.

1029
00:55:36,400 --> 00:55:40,360
Speaker 1: Tell you what I put my.

1030
00:55:39,440 --> 00:55:42,480
Speaker 2: I mean, I saw this. I saw this book whenever

1031
00:55:42,520 --> 00:55:46,399
Speaker 2: it was announced in January or December, and I pre

1032
00:55:46,520 --> 00:55:51,560
Speaker 2: ordered it because it has everything that I enjoy, just expeditions, Roosevelts,

1033
00:55:52,600 --> 00:55:57,200
Speaker 2: UH mountains and UH pairs and yeah, I'm a big

1034
00:55:57,320 --> 00:56:00,520
Speaker 2: zoo guy, so pandas are objects of incredible fast station form.

1035
00:56:00,560 --> 00:56:01,319
Speaker 1: You're a big zoo guy.

1036
00:56:01,640 --> 00:56:03,440
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, we talked about this.

1037
00:56:04,360 --> 00:56:07,719
Speaker 1: I know your biggest states guys really into a state sales.

1038
00:56:07,760 --> 00:56:12,759
Speaker 2: Sorry, I've got a yeah gotta. I'm very I'm a

1039
00:56:12,840 --> 00:56:13,560
Speaker 2: renaissance man.

1040
00:56:16,080 --> 00:56:17,719
Speaker 1: I knew about the estate sales, but I didn't know

1041
00:56:17,760 --> 00:56:18,880
Speaker 1: about the pandas well.

1042
00:56:18,920 --> 00:56:20,359
Speaker 3: You never know what trinkets you're gonna find.

1043
00:56:20,760 --> 00:56:22,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I was at a zoo this weekend.

1044
00:56:22,560 --> 00:56:22,960
Speaker 1: It's great.

1045
00:56:24,080 --> 00:56:24,600
Speaker 3: There's a lot of.

1046
00:56:26,760 --> 00:56:29,960
Speaker 1: So they hit a track. I like this that it's

1047
00:56:30,000 --> 00:56:35,160
Speaker 1: in the snow, But where a panda lives? What's the

1048
00:56:35,280 --> 00:56:37,040
Speaker 1: deepest snow A pan that could deal with? I mean,

1049
00:56:37,239 --> 00:56:40,040
Speaker 1: are they sometimes in serious snow or is it? Yes?

1050
00:56:40,280 --> 00:56:43,880
Speaker 3: Absolutely, yeah, they can get so. At this point, you know,

1051
00:56:43,920 --> 00:56:46,960
Speaker 3: we're getting into spring, so it's sort of it's rain

1052
00:56:47,080 --> 00:56:49,160
Speaker 3: and snow. At this point, it happens to be snow,

1053
00:56:49,200 --> 00:56:52,240
Speaker 3: which is very lucky because they're able to find the tracks,

1054
00:56:52,560 --> 00:56:55,240
Speaker 3: and in fact, the whole time they're following these tracks,

1055
00:56:55,600 --> 00:56:58,800
Speaker 3: the sun starts coming out and they're very anxious that

1056
00:56:58,960 --> 00:57:00,600
Speaker 3: the trail is just going to disappear.

1057
00:57:00,840 --> 00:57:05,759
Speaker 1: Gotcha. So, uh, but in peak winter, a panda is

1058
00:57:05,920 --> 00:57:10,359
Speaker 1: not hibernating, but it's hanging out in potentially serious snow.

1059
00:57:10,600 --> 00:57:13,920
Speaker 3: Isn't that interesting constantly eating?

1060
00:57:14,120 --> 00:57:17,120
Speaker 1: Okay, now to get back to my question, and maybe

1061
00:57:17,160 --> 00:57:18,600
Speaker 1: you're both I'll stay out of it. No, No, I

1062
00:57:18,680 --> 00:57:21,360
Speaker 1: want to hear your take. Maybe you're both right. They

1063
00:57:21,440 --> 00:57:23,800
Speaker 1: see the track, but then some of their guides start

1064
00:57:23,880 --> 00:57:29,919
Speaker 1: getting they're conflicted or they get reluctant. Yes, Randall says

1065
00:57:29,920 --> 00:57:32,600
Speaker 1: it's because they what what did he say? They want

1066
00:57:32,640 --> 00:57:33,040
Speaker 1: to go home?

1067
00:57:33,440 --> 00:57:38,280
Speaker 2: They I mean, my understanding is that they agreed to

1068
00:57:38,360 --> 00:57:41,640
Speaker 2: take the Roosevelts out thinking that they would not actually

1069
00:57:41,960 --> 00:57:44,560
Speaker 2: have to go through with the thing. They're like, we'll

1070
00:57:44,600 --> 00:57:46,560
Speaker 2: just march these guys around for a couple of days,

1071
00:57:46,600 --> 00:57:49,160
Speaker 2: collect our paychecks, and then these guys will go because

1072
00:57:49,200 --> 00:57:51,800
Speaker 2: like there's no chance we're actually going to hit a track.

1073
00:57:53,560 --> 00:57:55,680
Speaker 2: So when they hit a track, they're.

1074
00:57:55,560 --> 00:58:00,320
Speaker 4: Like, oh all right, Yeah, they're like they're like, really

1075
00:58:01,000 --> 00:58:03,200
Speaker 4: know whether we shouldn't have taken them to where they

1076
00:58:03,440 --> 00:58:04,040
Speaker 4: actually are.

1077
00:58:04,600 --> 00:58:06,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a lot of regret and so not all

1078
00:58:06,120 --> 00:58:06,240
Speaker 3: of that.

1079
00:58:06,480 --> 00:58:10,080
Speaker 1: It's a weird call because they could have just totally bisdom. Yeah,

1080
00:58:10,320 --> 00:58:13,080
Speaker 1: you know, like the Coronado expedition, they get these guides

1081
00:58:14,160 --> 00:58:17,840
Speaker 1: who deliberately they're trying to find these Native American settlements

1082
00:58:18,440 --> 00:58:20,000
Speaker 1: and they get these guides who are like, I'm not

1083
00:58:20,080 --> 00:58:22,120
Speaker 1: taking you there, and then they'll just tell them some

1084
00:58:22,200 --> 00:58:25,520
Speaker 1: total horseshit and take them somewhere else because they're trying

1085
00:58:25,520 --> 00:58:30,400
Speaker 1: to protect other Native Americans. Yes, so like oh, you

1086
00:58:30,440 --> 00:58:32,760
Speaker 1: want to go to where the main settlement is. It's

1087
00:58:32,800 --> 00:58:35,520
Speaker 1: over that way. You know. They'll go for days. One

1088
00:58:35,520 --> 00:58:37,440
Speaker 1: of these guys they actually kill him once they realize

1089
00:58:37,480 --> 00:58:40,600
Speaker 1: he's leading them on. So it's surprising that these guides,

1090
00:58:40,640 --> 00:58:42,960
Speaker 1: as conflicted as they are, they actually go to the spot.

1091
00:58:43,560 --> 00:58:46,320
Speaker 3: It is surprising, but I think that just goes to

1092
00:58:46,440 --> 00:58:49,720
Speaker 3: show how rare pandas are that they did not think

1093
00:58:49,800 --> 00:58:51,680
Speaker 3: they would find one even looking at.

1094
00:58:53,320 --> 00:58:59,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, so they cut a track, yes, and they trail it.

1095
00:58:59,400 --> 00:59:02,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, they start following it and they start seeing bits

1096
00:59:02,320 --> 00:59:04,360
Speaker 3: of broken bamboo as they go, so they know they're

1097
00:59:04,400 --> 00:59:09,360
Speaker 3: in the right place. Immediately, some hunting dogs begin to howl,

1098
00:59:09,760 --> 00:59:12,360
Speaker 3: and the Roosevelts are very upset. Hunting dogs are something

1099
00:59:12,400 --> 00:59:15,040
Speaker 3: that they have never liked to use. They've never even

1100
00:59:15,120 --> 00:59:17,880
Speaker 3: allowed it for most of this expedition. They did it

1101
00:59:17,960 --> 00:59:20,400
Speaker 3: this one day just to kind of keep people happy,

1102
00:59:21,080 --> 00:59:25,800
Speaker 3: and they're just beside themselves. They end up dividing where

1103
00:59:25,840 --> 00:59:28,080
Speaker 3: Ted goes on one trail and Kermit goes on another,

1104
00:59:29,160 --> 00:59:31,600
Speaker 3: and so Kermit is now the dog issue.

1105
00:59:31,760 --> 00:59:35,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, what don't they like about it? They feel it's counterproductive.

1106
00:59:36,240 --> 00:59:38,600
Speaker 3: Yes, they believe that it's just going to scare away

1107
00:59:39,120 --> 00:59:42,080
Speaker 3: the game. They're trash. Yeah, and it's been a problem

1108
00:59:42,360 --> 00:59:45,439
Speaker 3: throughout the expedition. And you know, it's really interesting because

1109
00:59:45,480 --> 00:59:49,120
Speaker 3: for a lot of these scientific expeditions, the hunters that

1110
00:59:49,800 --> 00:59:52,920
Speaker 3: got the game were not the scientists. They were local

1111
00:59:53,000 --> 00:59:55,800
Speaker 3: hunters that were used to get these animals. But the

1112
00:59:55,880 --> 00:59:58,800
Speaker 3: Roosevelts do not believe in that. They believe that they're

1113
00:59:58,880 --> 01:00:01,280
Speaker 3: the ones that should be getting these animals. And I

1114
01:00:01,360 --> 01:00:04,720
Speaker 3: mean that really makes sense. They're the ones that yeah, okay, yeah,

1115
01:00:04,720 --> 01:00:06,520
Speaker 3: they're the ones that will really want to do the work.

1116
01:00:07,520 --> 01:00:10,640
Speaker 3: And so hunting dogs have been this issue. But they

1117
01:00:10,760 --> 01:00:13,200
Speaker 3: wanted to keep these hunters happy because they know they

1118
01:00:13,200 --> 01:00:14,880
Speaker 3: don't even really want to be there, and they kind

1119
01:00:14,880 --> 01:00:17,080
Speaker 3: of had to convince them to keep going, even through

1120
01:00:17,120 --> 01:00:20,200
Speaker 3: pretty bad conditions. And so they were letting these dogs

1121
01:00:20,280 --> 01:00:22,280
Speaker 3: go so that they could hunt some pigs for food.

1122
01:00:22,360 --> 01:00:25,200
Speaker 1: Like ah, so they got dogs out for different reasons. Yeah,

1123
01:00:25,880 --> 01:00:28,880
Speaker 1: Also that makes more sense. Okay, So they're like, hey,

1124
01:00:29,080 --> 01:00:31,120
Speaker 1: they're here, they want to hunt, they want pigs, they

1125
01:00:31,160 --> 01:00:33,080
Speaker 1: want to eat. Yeah, so they're going to cut their

1126
01:00:33,120 --> 01:00:35,800
Speaker 1: dogs loose and then these dogs are raising hell in

1127
01:00:35,920 --> 01:00:36,720
Speaker 1: the pandas the.

1128
01:00:36,760 --> 01:00:40,000
Speaker 3: Worst timing ever, Yeah, it could not be worse understood.

1129
01:00:40,680 --> 01:00:43,400
Speaker 3: Finally Kurmit gets through the bamboo and they get to

1130
01:00:43,520 --> 01:00:49,680
Speaker 3: this magnificent dragon spruce tree, dark green needles. It's just beautiful.

1131
01:00:50,440 --> 01:00:54,360
Speaker 3: And Kurmit sees the panda stick its head out.

1132
01:00:54,200 --> 01:00:57,080
Speaker 1: Of the tree and it's it's up in the tree.

1133
01:00:57,200 --> 01:00:59,520
Speaker 3: It's up in the tree. Yes, it's in a hole

1134
01:00:59,600 --> 01:01:01,600
Speaker 3: in the tree. It's not too far off the ground,

1135
01:01:01,680 --> 01:01:05,600
Speaker 3: and it's kind of looks sleepy. And he immediately says,

1136
01:01:05,760 --> 01:01:08,280
Speaker 3: go get my brother, because they have made this plan

1137
01:01:08,640 --> 01:01:11,640
Speaker 3: from the beginning that when they see a panda, they're

1138
01:01:11,720 --> 01:01:15,320
Speaker 3: going to shoot it simultaneously so they both get the credit.

1139
01:01:15,560 --> 01:01:18,680
Speaker 3: Oh my god, really, I know, it's very it's kind

1140
01:01:18,720 --> 01:01:19,920
Speaker 3: of ridiculous, and.

1141
01:01:20,200 --> 01:01:22,360
Speaker 1: Many people kids around.

1142
01:01:22,520 --> 01:01:27,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, it kind of is, and I think part of

1143
01:01:27,120 --> 01:01:35,560
Speaker 3: this is that good lord, but it's kind of adorable.

1144
01:01:38,720 --> 01:01:46,120
Speaker 1: I want to favorite you always have to shoot everything, you.

1145
01:01:49,160 --> 01:01:51,560
Speaker 2: Sho That's like it could be like a firing squad

1146
01:01:51,600 --> 01:01:52,000
Speaker 2: where one.

1147
01:01:51,920 --> 01:01:53,280
Speaker 4: Of them is a blank and one of them as

1148
01:01:54,280 --> 01:01:56,520
Speaker 4: if you had told me, if you had told me

1149
01:01:56,760 --> 01:02:00,920
Speaker 4: that that neither of them, uh wanted to have the

1150
01:02:01,040 --> 01:02:04,760
Speaker 4: guilt of killing the panda, And so they had a plan,

1151
01:02:04,920 --> 01:02:07,240
Speaker 4: like you're saying, where there's a blank and a live round,

1152
01:02:07,360 --> 01:02:09,480
Speaker 4: you know, and so they never really know who killed

1153
01:02:09,520 --> 01:02:11,640
Speaker 4: the panda, but that they both want to be.

1154
01:02:13,240 --> 01:02:13,560
Speaker 1: Shot.

1155
01:02:14,600 --> 01:02:17,240
Speaker 3: No, there's no guilt at this point because they don't

1156
01:02:17,240 --> 01:02:20,120
Speaker 3: know what the panda's like. They think they're going to

1157
01:02:20,160 --> 01:02:21,920
Speaker 3: shoot at this panda and it's going to attack them.

1158
01:02:23,680 --> 01:02:25,280
Speaker 1: Okay, that reason they.

1159
01:02:25,240 --> 01:02:26,280
Speaker 2: Got to get two bullets in it.

1160
01:02:26,400 --> 01:02:28,960
Speaker 1: They're like, they're so afraid. They want to make sure

1161
01:02:29,000 --> 01:02:31,280
Speaker 1: it goes down. They want to make sure that it's

1162
01:02:31,320 --> 01:02:33,400
Speaker 1: a human. There's a hundred ways they could have spun this,

1163
01:02:33,560 --> 01:02:35,360
Speaker 1: but to spin it that they wanted to both be

1164
01:02:35,400 --> 01:02:40,200
Speaker 1: able to say they got it. It's just it's kind

1165
01:02:40,240 --> 01:02:42,680
Speaker 1: of pathetic. Well.

1166
01:02:42,880 --> 01:02:47,720
Speaker 3: Interestingly, though, Teddy Roosevelt would often take turns on his

1167
01:02:47,840 --> 01:02:50,560
Speaker 3: expedition and he would get annoyed if people didn't take

1168
01:02:50,640 --> 01:02:53,120
Speaker 3: turns shooting animals because he felt it was only fair.

1169
01:02:53,160 --> 01:02:56,480
Speaker 3: Everyone should get a fair chance at taking these shots. Okay,

1170
01:02:57,080 --> 01:02:57,960
Speaker 3: so it might be part of that.

1171
01:02:58,240 --> 01:03:00,960
Speaker 1: So it's dend up in a tree, Yeah, and then

1172
01:03:01,640 --> 01:03:03,400
Speaker 1: is it deaded up in the tree because the dogs

1173
01:03:03,400 --> 01:03:06,200
Speaker 1: have baded it up. No, Okay, so they track it

1174
01:03:06,520 --> 01:03:08,240
Speaker 1: just they happen to just find it. They happen to

1175
01:03:08,320 --> 01:03:09,800
Speaker 1: find it, and there it is, all doped up in

1176
01:03:09,880 --> 01:03:13,120
Speaker 1: a tree. Yes, they feel that it's lethargic. Well, because

1177
01:03:13,120 --> 01:03:15,400
Speaker 1: they're not knowing that, they're like expecting frocity.

1178
01:03:15,800 --> 01:03:19,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, they're expecting Frosty, absolutely, and so Ted comes. They

1179
01:03:20,000 --> 01:03:21,720
Speaker 3: get out their Smithfield rifles and.

1180
01:03:21,760 --> 01:03:23,080
Speaker 1: They've got to be excited as hell.

1181
01:03:23,360 --> 01:03:26,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, Oh, they're very excited. They've been waiting for this

1182
01:03:26,360 --> 01:03:29,200
Speaker 3: moment for months. They've tracked very long to get there,

1183
01:03:29,960 --> 01:03:32,880
Speaker 3: and so finally Ted gets there. They get their rifles,

1184
01:03:33,520 --> 01:03:36,320
Speaker 3: and they've selected these Smithfield rifles because they're light, they're

1185
01:03:36,360 --> 01:03:39,360
Speaker 3: easy to carry, and it's one that Kermit used in

1186
01:03:39,480 --> 01:03:43,120
Speaker 3: Africa when he was hunting elephants. And so they fire

1187
01:03:43,120 --> 01:03:47,040
Speaker 3: at the bear and they are very fortunate in that

1188
01:03:47,240 --> 01:03:48,880
Speaker 3: it's coming out of the tree and so they're able

1189
01:03:48,920 --> 01:03:51,680
Speaker 3: to get a shot on it, and then then then

1190
01:03:51,720 --> 01:03:53,800
Speaker 3: they trail it and then finally able to track it

1191
01:03:53,920 --> 01:03:57,560
Speaker 3: down and kill the panda. But it's not at all

1192
01:03:57,600 --> 01:04:00,000
Speaker 3: what they expect. This is not a bear that immediately

1193
01:04:00,280 --> 01:04:03,320
Speaker 3: turns on them and is trying to attack. It is

1194
01:04:03,520 --> 01:04:06,360
Speaker 3: clear right from the beginning that the hunters they were

1195
01:04:06,400 --> 01:04:09,400
Speaker 3: going with, are right, this is a gentle animal. This

1196
01:04:09,560 --> 01:04:12,439
Speaker 3: is not a polar bear, This is not a grizzly bear.

1197
01:04:13,080 --> 01:04:17,640
Speaker 3: This is something very different. And pretty soon after we

1198
01:04:17,800 --> 01:04:21,120
Speaker 3: see they begin to show regret. In their journals they

1199
01:04:21,200 --> 01:04:24,320
Speaker 3: talk about how this bear is a gentleman, that this

1200
01:04:24,560 --> 01:04:28,000
Speaker 3: is not an animal that should become a trophy animal.

1201
01:04:28,480 --> 01:04:30,400
Speaker 3: But that's exactly what happens.

1202
01:04:30,440 --> 01:04:33,960
Speaker 1: And what's also is there any conflict with them to

1203
01:04:34,080 --> 01:04:40,600
Speaker 1: be that, I guess in this collection era, there's no

1204
01:04:40,840 --> 01:04:43,040
Speaker 1: sort of on one hand, we should observe it, on

1205
01:04:43,120 --> 01:04:45,240
Speaker 1: the other hand, we should collect it. Like in their mind,

1206
01:04:45,360 --> 01:04:46,800
Speaker 1: like collection is paramount.

1207
01:04:47,040 --> 01:04:50,640
Speaker 3: Collection is paramount because there is no objective full specimen

1208
01:04:50,920 --> 01:04:53,240
Speaker 3: in a museum, So they need to do both. And

1209
01:04:53,920 --> 01:04:56,120
Speaker 3: at this point they've been able to collect some information

1210
01:04:56,360 --> 01:04:58,760
Speaker 3: about the panda, and they're going to get more after

1211
01:04:58,880 --> 01:05:01,840
Speaker 3: they hunt it. But certainly getting the specimen is the

1212
01:05:01,920 --> 01:05:03,840
Speaker 3: most important thing for the museum.

1213
01:05:05,000 --> 01:05:07,680
Speaker 1: And do the guys do the what does the guides

1214
01:05:08,360 --> 01:05:12,160
Speaker 1: when they kill it? What? Like what is the guide's attitude?

1215
01:05:12,280 --> 01:05:13,920
Speaker 1: Do the guides are like, hey, let's cook it up?

1216
01:05:14,000 --> 01:05:16,080
Speaker 1: Or like what is their sort of demeanor about the

1217
01:05:16,080 --> 01:05:16,480
Speaker 1: whole thing?

1218
01:05:17,200 --> 01:05:19,480
Speaker 3: At first, they do not even want to let the

1219
01:05:19,560 --> 01:05:22,920
Speaker 3: panda back into the village because they feel like this

1220
01:05:23,080 --> 01:05:25,280
Speaker 3: is such a horrible thing that's happened. They don't want

1221
01:05:25,320 --> 01:05:28,160
Speaker 3: it to take to the village. And it's only when

1222
01:05:28,160 --> 01:05:31,520
Speaker 3: they realize that Kermit and Ted will have to prepare

1223
01:05:31,600 --> 01:05:33,600
Speaker 3: the animal and the mud and the snow that they

1224
01:05:33,720 --> 01:05:36,040
Speaker 3: let it come into the village at all. And this

1225
01:05:36,240 --> 01:05:38,760
Speaker 3: is the only animal of the many many they hunted

1226
01:05:38,840 --> 01:05:41,560
Speaker 3: on the trail that Ted and Kermit do not eat.

1227
01:05:41,880 --> 01:05:45,000
Speaker 3: I'm sorry. Kind of a tough thing for this podcast,

1228
01:05:45,080 --> 01:05:50,480
Speaker 3: isn't it. The Yeah, they felt bad about it, and.

1229
01:05:50,680 --> 01:05:53,840
Speaker 1: The guides so their taboo system too, like the guides

1230
01:05:53,840 --> 01:05:54,440
Speaker 1: are not going to.

1231
01:05:54,480 --> 01:05:58,320
Speaker 3: Partake they do not know, And in fact, the leader

1232
01:05:58,360 --> 01:06:01,800
Speaker 3: of the village ends up buying a goat for everyone

1233
01:06:02,000 --> 01:06:05,760
Speaker 3: to feast with that night. But you can imagine how

1234
01:06:05,800 --> 01:06:07,640
Speaker 3: it must have felt for Tend and Kermit to be

1235
01:06:07,760 --> 01:06:11,000
Speaker 3: preparing this animal with an audience of people around them

1236
01:06:11,600 --> 01:06:15,360
Speaker 3: that just are absolutely horrified by what they do. I mean,

1237
01:06:15,400 --> 01:06:17,880
Speaker 3: they really see tedd and Kermit as the savages in

1238
01:06:17,920 --> 01:06:21,600
Speaker 3: this situation, because here they are having to go through

1239
01:06:21,680 --> 01:06:25,880
Speaker 3: skinning this animal. They're making diagrams of every muscle, every bone,

1240
01:06:26,360 --> 01:06:30,520
Speaker 3: and then of course the preparation for the hide. It's

1241
01:06:30,600 --> 01:06:33,480
Speaker 3: pretty intense for anyone to watch, but you can imagine

1242
01:06:33,560 --> 01:06:36,400
Speaker 3: how the people must have felt watching this happen to

1243
01:06:36,440 --> 01:06:39,840
Speaker 3: an animal that they felt was sacred and gentle that

1244
01:06:39,920 --> 01:06:40,680
Speaker 3: they didn't hunt.

1245
01:06:41,840 --> 01:06:47,640
Speaker 1: Trying to think of a parallel, I don't know for us. Yeah,

1246
01:06:47,640 --> 01:06:51,040
Speaker 1: I'd be like if nowadays, Like if nowadays someone's like,

1247
01:06:51,240 --> 01:06:56,600
Speaker 1: I need to get a bald eagle, yeah, something that

1248
01:06:56,680 --> 01:06:58,840
Speaker 1: would just be like the people like, man, I don't

1249
01:06:58,840 --> 01:07:01,200
Speaker 1: even be nothing to do with this man.

1250
01:07:01,520 --> 01:07:01,760
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1251
01:07:02,040 --> 01:07:03,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, It's hard to think of a parallel.

1252
01:07:05,000 --> 01:07:07,440
Speaker 2: I'm sure or some I think people have I think

1253
01:07:07,480 --> 01:07:10,240
Speaker 2: a dog maybe, Yeah, I don't know. Yeah, I mean

1254
01:07:10,320 --> 01:07:12,920
Speaker 2: you just don't want I don't even want to see it.

1255
01:07:12,960 --> 01:07:14,680
Speaker 3: I mean, you can't imagine anyone doing this to a

1256
01:07:14,720 --> 01:07:19,120
Speaker 3: panda today, right, Nobody would do this. But immediately after

1257
01:07:19,480 --> 01:07:22,920
Speaker 3: the Roosevelt expedition, as soon as people learn that they

1258
01:07:22,960 --> 01:07:27,240
Speaker 3: have been successful and where the pandas are, suddenly this

1259
01:07:27,440 --> 01:07:29,720
Speaker 3: is the hunting trophy to get all of these expeditions

1260
01:07:31,120 --> 01:07:33,320
Speaker 3: among big game hunters in the US.

1261
01:07:35,880 --> 01:07:37,040
Speaker 1: I didn't know that you can't.

1262
01:07:36,880 --> 01:07:37,720
Speaker 5: See that happening.

1263
01:07:40,400 --> 01:07:42,320
Speaker 1: I could see it happening if they came if they

1264
01:07:42,400 --> 01:07:45,800
Speaker 1: had come back with a different approach, but if they

1265
01:07:45,840 --> 01:07:48,840
Speaker 1: came back like no, no, it's like, uh, it's like

1266
01:07:48,960 --> 01:07:53,080
Speaker 1: it eats bamboo, it's bill chill. The local people think

1267
01:07:53,120 --> 01:07:54,920
Speaker 1: you're horrible if you mess with it, you're not a

1268
01:07:55,000 --> 01:07:56,760
Speaker 1: he It's not like there's no like sort of like

1269
01:07:57,040 --> 01:07:57,920
Speaker 1: hero function.

1270
01:07:58,800 --> 01:07:59,800
Speaker 3: But nobody's listening.

1271
01:08:00,320 --> 01:08:03,800
Speaker 1: Are glad, Yeah, you know the herders are like celebrating

1272
01:08:03,880 --> 01:08:06,920
Speaker 1: that you've gotten rid of this thing that gives them pain.

1273
01:08:07,200 --> 01:08:08,280
Speaker 3: It's like rare animal.

1274
01:08:08,600 --> 01:08:10,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's just like, yeah, it's a little surprising.

1275
01:08:11,040 --> 01:08:14,280
Speaker 3: It's been so many decades of trying to find this animal,

1276
01:08:14,320 --> 01:08:16,519
Speaker 3: of trying to show that it's real that as soon

1277
01:08:16,600 --> 01:08:19,479
Speaker 3: as there's evidence, yes it's real and this is where

1278
01:08:19,560 --> 01:08:22,400
Speaker 3: you can find it, it's immediate hunters want to go

1279
01:08:23,280 --> 01:08:25,640
Speaker 3: and get this animal. And in addition, you have a

1280
01:08:25,800 --> 01:08:28,599
Speaker 3: number of Americans that want to go and capture live

1281
01:08:28,760 --> 01:08:30,200
Speaker 3: pandas for zoos.

1282
01:08:31,720 --> 01:08:36,479
Speaker 1: But I'm curious what the ye people think of this trend.

1283
01:08:36,680 --> 01:08:39,600
Speaker 1: But let's back up a minute. So they get their specimen,

1284
01:08:41,120 --> 01:08:43,200
Speaker 1: do they go on to have more interactions? Are they

1285
01:08:43,400 --> 01:08:48,000
Speaker 1: able to find more animals different demographics or is it

1286
01:08:48,080 --> 01:08:48,920
Speaker 1: kind of a one and done.

1287
01:08:49,360 --> 01:08:52,760
Speaker 3: They're only able to find that one animal, Okay, that's it.

1288
01:08:53,400 --> 01:08:56,000
Speaker 3: But they are able to spend some time in the

1289
01:08:56,160 --> 01:09:00,280
Speaker 3: area and sort of document exactly what diet the panda as,

1290
01:09:01,040 --> 01:09:03,280
Speaker 3: what its territory is, and then of course they spend

1291
01:09:03,320 --> 01:09:07,840
Speaker 3: a long time being able to prepare the hide, take

1292
01:09:07,920 --> 01:09:09,559
Speaker 3: the bones, they need every part.

1293
01:09:09,840 --> 01:09:11,840
Speaker 1: They don't lay eyes on another one. They do not

1294
01:09:13,080 --> 01:09:17,880
Speaker 1: just the one, believe man, Huh, that's it.

1295
01:09:18,439 --> 01:09:19,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, there you go.

1296
01:09:22,400 --> 01:09:24,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, So it's just hard to think of other things

1297
01:09:24,200 --> 01:09:27,400
Speaker 1: that you'd go that are other, like at other species,

1298
01:09:27,439 --> 01:09:31,000
Speaker 1: that you'd go and like really find one and then

1299
01:09:31,080 --> 01:09:34,120
Speaker 1: spend time in the area and have it not be

1300
01:09:34,280 --> 01:09:35,880
Speaker 1: that you got into like a pocket of them.

1301
01:09:36,360 --> 01:09:39,680
Speaker 3: Yeah right, I mean, no, that's it.

1302
01:09:39,880 --> 01:09:41,280
Speaker 1: If you went and found a grille, you're going to

1303
01:09:41,320 --> 01:09:43,680
Speaker 1: find a troop, you know or whatever. But yeah, just

1304
01:09:43,840 --> 01:09:47,040
Speaker 1: you'd come get one, hang around and just that was it.

1305
01:09:47,200 --> 01:09:48,880
Speaker 1: Just some loaner, that was it.

1306
01:09:49,160 --> 01:09:52,639
Speaker 3: Yeah, And it makes sense when we understand pandobiology today

1307
01:09:52,840 --> 01:09:55,720
Speaker 3: because they are so isolated, and of course Ted and

1308
01:09:55,800 --> 01:09:59,400
Speaker 3: Kermit received many offers to go back and hunt panda again.

1309
01:10:00,200 --> 01:10:01,920
Speaker 1: I mean with recreational holders.

1310
01:10:02,120 --> 01:10:05,400
Speaker 3: Yes, with recreational holders, and even with museums, because you know,

1311
01:10:06,360 --> 01:10:08,519
Speaker 3: Chicago isn't going to be the only one. Every museum

1312
01:10:08,720 --> 01:10:12,240
Speaker 3: wanted to have their own group of pandas to show,

1313
01:10:13,240 --> 01:10:15,800
Speaker 3: but they refused. They would not go back, they would

1314
01:10:15,840 --> 01:10:19,200
Speaker 3: not hunt panda again, and in fact, their lives took

1315
01:10:19,240 --> 01:10:21,800
Speaker 3: a very different turn after the panda hunt.

1316
01:10:23,280 --> 01:10:24,960
Speaker 1: I want to I want you to tell that because

1317
01:10:24,960 --> 01:10:26,200
Speaker 1: I want to get to how the one of them

1318
01:10:26,320 --> 01:10:29,160
Speaker 1: kills himself. The other guy died young too, he did.

1319
01:10:29,600 --> 01:10:29,800
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1320
01:10:29,920 --> 01:10:35,240
Speaker 1: But with with the the Ye people you spoke about,

1321
01:10:35,800 --> 01:10:41,840
Speaker 1: do they this court, this habitat area, this area they're at,

1322
01:10:42,439 --> 01:10:46,720
Speaker 1: is it sort of like uncontested that that is their homeland,

1323
01:10:47,040 --> 01:10:49,360
Speaker 1: that they are the governing like the Ye people? Is

1324
01:10:49,439 --> 01:10:51,599
Speaker 1: it Is it like that they are the governing body there?

1325
01:10:51,640 --> 01:10:52,679
Speaker 3: Absolutely at that time.

1326
01:10:52,880 --> 01:10:55,400
Speaker 1: Yes. So if when they come back and all of

1327
01:10:55,400 --> 01:10:57,639
Speaker 1: a sudden it creates kind of a gold rush where

1328
01:10:57,760 --> 01:11:00,920
Speaker 1: people want to go collect this, you know, like a

1329
01:11:01,120 --> 01:11:04,519
Speaker 1: like a hunter collector who's not affiliated with a museum

1330
01:11:04,720 --> 01:11:08,600
Speaker 1: wants one for his personal collection. Is it is it

1331
01:11:08,680 --> 01:11:13,360
Speaker 1: even possible that you would do it outside of outside

1332
01:11:13,400 --> 01:11:16,320
Speaker 1: of the authority of these people, Do you. I mean,

1333
01:11:16,360 --> 01:11:17,760
Speaker 1: like like that you could just kind of go to

1334
01:11:17,840 --> 01:11:20,680
Speaker 1: this area and hang out and shoot this thing. They

1335
01:11:20,720 --> 01:11:22,599
Speaker 1: don't want to get shot and not need to worry

1336
01:11:22,640 --> 01:11:25,360
Speaker 1: about what they're how they're going to react to that.

1337
01:11:26,000 --> 01:11:28,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a good question, because there is a lot

1338
01:11:28,120 --> 01:11:31,080
Speaker 3: of angst even when the Roosevelts are there about what

1339
01:11:31,240 --> 01:11:31,760
Speaker 3: they're doing.

1340
01:11:31,920 --> 01:11:32,080
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1341
01:11:32,160 --> 01:11:35,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, but there are no laws, and so you can

1342
01:11:35,920 --> 01:11:38,400
Speaker 3: imagine that it's not that difficult for these hunters and

1343
01:11:38,479 --> 01:11:41,040
Speaker 3: for people who are looking to collect pandas to come

1344
01:11:41,120 --> 01:11:44,040
Speaker 3: in with the right bribes, be able to find people

1345
01:11:44,120 --> 01:11:45,200
Speaker 3: that will help I got it.

1346
01:11:45,400 --> 01:11:48,479
Speaker 1: Yeah, like some outcasts or whatever. It's like, yeah, I'll

1347
01:11:48,520 --> 01:11:50,479
Speaker 1: do it. Yeah, I'll do it for the right amount

1348
01:11:50,479 --> 01:11:54,800
Speaker 1: of money. Yes, I see how many? How many can

1349
01:11:54,920 --> 01:11:56,320
Speaker 1: can you even take a guess, like, in the next

1350
01:11:56,360 --> 01:12:00,759
Speaker 1: couple decades or whatever, how many pandas enter private collections

1351
01:12:00,800 --> 01:12:03,160
Speaker 1: in the US or private collections anywhere.

1352
01:12:03,800 --> 01:12:07,240
Speaker 3: It's hard for me to assess exactly what that number is.

1353
01:12:09,520 --> 01:12:13,080
Speaker 3: Certainly for museum collections, we know that there are dozens

1354
01:12:13,520 --> 01:12:17,080
Speaker 3: that came back for museums, and that museums were really

1355
01:12:17,160 --> 01:12:19,840
Speaker 3: intent on getting as many animals of as many different

1356
01:12:19,920 --> 01:12:22,960
Speaker 3: ages as they could, and part of that is because

1357
01:12:23,000 --> 01:12:26,400
Speaker 3: the exhibits themselves were popular, but also because they wanted

1358
01:12:26,479 --> 01:12:29,280
Speaker 3: to do comparative biology to be able to really look

1359
01:12:29,360 --> 01:12:31,519
Speaker 3: at what the history of the panda was and how

1360
01:12:31,600 --> 01:12:34,679
Speaker 3: it fit in with other bears. And certainly the track

1361
01:12:34,720 --> 01:12:37,320
Speaker 3: record for bringing live animals to zoos in the United

1362
01:12:37,360 --> 01:12:40,680
Speaker 3: States is just atrocious. During that era, you have all

1363
01:12:40,760 --> 01:12:43,360
Speaker 3: of these cubs that were brought back, and none of

1364
01:12:43,400 --> 01:12:46,160
Speaker 3: them survived very long because people just didn't know how

1365
01:12:46,200 --> 01:12:47,000
Speaker 3: to take care of them.

1366
01:12:47,840 --> 01:12:49,600
Speaker 1: Presumably the way to get the cubs is they'd go

1367
01:12:49,680 --> 01:12:51,520
Speaker 1: and just shoot a female and take the cubs.

1368
01:12:51,439 --> 01:12:56,120
Speaker 3: Yes, absolutely, which then provided the benefit of also getting

1369
01:12:56,560 --> 01:12:59,400
Speaker 3: a skin that you could bring back. And they needed

1370
01:12:59,439 --> 01:13:01,360
Speaker 3: the cubs because that's really the only way you could

1371
01:13:01,439 --> 01:13:05,000
Speaker 3: smuggle it back to the US. They were, you know,

1372
01:13:05,120 --> 01:13:08,880
Speaker 3: bringing this through the Chinese government, but not declaring that

1373
01:13:09,000 --> 01:13:10,360
Speaker 3: they actually had pandas.

1374
01:13:10,760 --> 01:13:13,360
Speaker 1: Okay, so they're even though they're in Tibet and there's

1375
01:13:13,439 --> 01:13:17,680
Speaker 1: like hostilities between the Tibetans in China, the kind of

1376
01:13:17,800 --> 01:13:22,080
Speaker 1: flow winds up being through, Yes, the flow winds up

1377
01:13:22,080 --> 01:13:24,080
Speaker 1: being a like a Chinese market.

1378
01:13:24,520 --> 01:13:27,559
Speaker 3: Yes, because they have to as they take a boat

1379
01:13:27,640 --> 01:13:30,000
Speaker 3: back home. They have to do so through China.

1380
01:13:30,600 --> 01:13:34,600
Speaker 1: And what is the if there's like a little bit

1381
01:13:34,600 --> 01:13:37,400
Speaker 1: of a taboo with the people that live there, if

1382
01:13:37,439 --> 01:13:40,639
Speaker 1: you get down into mainland, if you get down that mainland,

1383
01:13:40,680 --> 01:13:44,839
Speaker 1: if you get down into like places where there's Chinese authority,

1384
01:13:46,600 --> 01:13:49,320
Speaker 1: what is the attitude there to the panda? Because now

1385
01:13:49,360 --> 01:13:52,400
Speaker 1: it's funny that it's funny that our perception is that

1386
01:13:52,520 --> 01:13:57,360
Speaker 1: it's this symbol of China, you know, like like you

1387
01:13:57,439 --> 01:14:00,160
Speaker 1: get up to like Nixon and he like negotiates right, right,

1388
01:14:00,200 --> 01:14:03,080
Speaker 1: and they bring this panda for the thing. It's like

1389
01:14:03,120 --> 01:14:05,160
Speaker 1: a symbol of China. But at that time it would

1390
01:14:05,160 --> 01:14:06,400
Speaker 1: have been a symbol of Tibet.

1391
01:14:07,520 --> 01:14:10,080
Speaker 3: At the time, it was just this brand new animal

1392
01:14:10,320 --> 01:14:12,240
Speaker 3: that had been described for many people.

1393
01:14:12,080 --> 01:14:14,920
Speaker 1: A symbol of no one or whatever. Yeah, I gotcha.

1394
01:14:15,000 --> 01:14:17,040
Speaker 1: It wasn't like a national it wasn't like a like

1395
01:14:17,280 --> 01:14:18,639
Speaker 1: a point of national pride.

1396
01:14:18,720 --> 01:14:21,479
Speaker 3: It was not yet. So it's it's interesting how that

1397
01:14:21,840 --> 01:14:23,920
Speaker 3: came to be. I mean, it's weird to think of

1398
01:14:23,960 --> 01:14:26,880
Speaker 3: the Roosevelts as being part of creating that, isn't it.

1399
01:14:27,800 --> 01:14:31,479
Speaker 3: But certainly China had some regulations about what animals you

1400
01:14:31,520 --> 01:14:34,559
Speaker 3: could take, and while there weren't any laws about panda cubs.

1401
01:14:34,680 --> 01:14:38,280
Speaker 3: Yet the people that were smuggling the panda cubs out

1402
01:14:38,520 --> 01:14:41,160
Speaker 3: were declaring them as dogs that they were taking home.

1403
01:14:44,520 --> 01:14:47,720
Speaker 2: And it's fascinating too to just think about. So their

1404
01:14:47,840 --> 01:14:54,599
Speaker 2: expedition is in nineteen twenty to twenty nine, and when

1405
01:14:54,600 --> 01:14:57,639
Speaker 2: you're talking about Nixon, I mean, that's just a couple

1406
01:14:57,760 --> 01:15:00,600
Speaker 2: decades later that grew it to the made nation is

1407
01:15:00,680 --> 01:15:03,200
Speaker 2: like this is China's I mean, I think a lot

1408
01:15:03,240 --> 01:15:06,519
Speaker 2: of Americans would just assume that panda's China's national animal.

1409
01:15:06,680 --> 01:15:08,640
Speaker 2: And it's like if you were to go back in

1410
01:15:09,160 --> 01:15:13,360
Speaker 2: Chinese history and see documentation of this, but it's it's

1411
01:15:13,400 --> 01:15:13,960
Speaker 2: so recent.

1412
01:15:14,200 --> 01:15:17,280
Speaker 1: It's forty Yeah, in forty years it became that, like

1413
01:15:17,520 --> 01:15:21,760
Speaker 1: it became like sort of the mascot of normalizing relations

1414
01:15:22,360 --> 01:15:25,040
Speaker 1: with China. And they didn't even in nineteen thirty, they

1415
01:15:25,080 --> 01:15:28,040
Speaker 1: didn't know about them. And in nineteen seventy it's like, look, China,

1416
01:15:28,080 --> 01:15:31,720
Speaker 1: it's a panda. Yeah, Like it really blew up.

1417
01:15:32,000 --> 01:15:34,200
Speaker 3: It really did. As soon as the results come back

1418
01:15:34,360 --> 01:15:37,160
Speaker 3: and people can see this exhibit for themselves, there is

1419
01:15:37,280 --> 01:15:40,040
Speaker 3: this pandemonium. People get really excited.

1420
01:15:42,479 --> 01:15:44,960
Speaker 2: I wish so big panda probably came out.

1421
01:15:48,240 --> 01:15:49,439
Speaker 1: It's kind of amazing, man.

1422
01:15:50,200 --> 01:15:52,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, people were so excited about this animal they really

1423
01:15:52,960 --> 01:15:56,320
Speaker 3: didn't even know existed before, and how could you not.

1424
01:15:56,600 --> 01:15:58,240
Speaker 3: Pandas are very cute, and.

1425
01:15:58,320 --> 01:16:00,920
Speaker 1: It's that little rush. Because here's the other thing is,

1426
01:16:02,320 --> 01:16:05,639
Speaker 1: I know there were never many, but that little flurry

1427
01:16:05,760 --> 01:16:10,840
Speaker 1: of activity must have a from a conservation perspective, it

1428
01:16:10,880 --> 01:16:15,240
Speaker 1: must be pretty destructive pretty immediately, yes, Imia, they're so

1429
01:16:15,439 --> 01:16:17,880
Speaker 1: rare anyways, and now you're whittling away at something that's

1430
01:16:19,000 --> 01:16:19,960
Speaker 1: at such low bond.

1431
01:16:20,320 --> 01:16:22,759
Speaker 3: Yeah. And that's why Ted and Kermit became so passionate

1432
01:16:22,840 --> 01:16:26,559
Speaker 3: about protecting pandas afterwards, is because they knew how rare

1433
01:16:26,680 --> 01:16:27,720
Speaker 3: these bears really were.

1434
01:16:28,120 --> 01:16:28,280
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1435
01:16:28,280 --> 01:16:30,880
Speaker 1: If there's only two thousand of them in like two

1436
01:16:31,040 --> 01:16:35,160
Speaker 1: hundred museums want one and a few hundred collectors want one,

1437
01:16:35,360 --> 01:16:38,880
Speaker 1: you're talking about it. You're like, you're removing a significant

1438
01:16:38,960 --> 01:16:41,240
Speaker 1: percentage of the global population.

1439
01:16:41,520 --> 01:16:45,959
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, so it's for them. It became very disturbing

1440
01:16:46,040 --> 01:16:48,519
Speaker 3: what happened. They did not expect that it would blow

1441
01:16:48,600 --> 01:16:50,200
Speaker 3: up quite so big, and that you would have so

1442
01:16:50,280 --> 01:16:53,320
Speaker 3: many people going out to kill pandas and to steal cubs.

1443
01:16:53,840 --> 01:16:57,160
Speaker 3: And so that's why they ended up making some big changes,

1444
01:16:57,280 --> 01:17:01,000
Speaker 3: especially with Kermit. You see him taking these roles in

1445
01:17:01,120 --> 01:17:05,920
Speaker 3: leadership in wildlife conservation that you know, obviously Teddy Roosevelt

1446
01:17:06,000 --> 01:17:09,120
Speaker 3: is such a leader in conservation and what he did,

1447
01:17:09,280 --> 01:17:13,640
Speaker 3: so certainly the brothers were following in his footsteps. But

1448
01:17:13,760 --> 01:17:17,280
Speaker 3: you see Kermit doing some interesting things. For instance, he

1449
01:17:17,360 --> 01:17:21,560
Speaker 3: went on an expedition to the Galopagos where instead of

1450
01:17:21,880 --> 01:17:25,479
Speaker 3: going out and taking animals as they had before, they

1451
01:17:25,560 --> 01:17:29,479
Speaker 3: now were trying to study them create a breeding program

1452
01:17:29,600 --> 01:17:34,519
Speaker 3: for Galopaghos tortoises. So he really changes his perspective of

1453
01:17:34,640 --> 01:17:37,479
Speaker 3: how he goes out and does expeditions from them then

1454
01:17:37,600 --> 01:17:41,360
Speaker 3: on it's no longer the same. And in addition, he

1455
01:17:41,560 --> 01:17:45,240
Speaker 3: ends up becoming very passionate about creating laws to protect pandas.

1456
01:17:45,720 --> 01:17:50,080
Speaker 3: So he becomes vice president with the New York Zoological

1457
01:17:50,160 --> 01:17:53,439
Speaker 3: Society and then becomes president of the Audubon Society, where

1458
01:17:53,520 --> 01:17:56,920
Speaker 3: he works very closely with Chinese officials to create laws

1459
01:17:57,000 --> 01:18:00,599
Speaker 3: to protect pandas. And we see even ten as well

1460
01:18:01,160 --> 01:18:06,519
Speaker 3: becomes pretty upset with what's happened. It's it's just it

1461
01:18:06,640 --> 01:18:10,320
Speaker 3: becomes so atrocious how many cubs are being stolen from

1462
01:18:10,400 --> 01:18:12,080
Speaker 3: China and that die shortly after.

1463
01:18:12,479 --> 01:18:13,760
Speaker 1: You know what you know in our world? You know

1464
01:18:13,800 --> 01:18:18,519
Speaker 1: what they call this spot burning? He's a spot burner.

1465
01:18:19,640 --> 01:18:21,160
Speaker 2: Well, I sort of had the thought when they're talking

1466
01:18:21,160 --> 01:18:23,960
Speaker 2: about the people coming out, it's like your buddy wants

1467
01:18:24,000 --> 01:18:25,960
Speaker 2: to go hunting with you, and he really wants you

1468
01:18:26,000 --> 01:18:27,439
Speaker 2: to take him to one of your spots, and you

1469
01:18:27,520 --> 01:18:28,880
Speaker 2: go to one of the bad spots and then a

1470
01:18:28,920 --> 01:18:32,200
Speaker 2: big buck walks up and you're like, it really was

1471
01:18:32,280 --> 01:18:33,400
Speaker 2: Now I imagine this happened.

1472
01:18:33,400 --> 01:18:40,519
Speaker 1: I should turn around us. He has the guilt. He

1473
01:18:40,640 --> 01:18:43,439
Speaker 1: comes in the conservation movement. But what age are these

1474
01:18:43,479 --> 01:18:45,240
Speaker 1: guys when they do the what age are they in

1475
01:18:45,360 --> 01:18:47,120
Speaker 1: nineteen thirty and how long do they live?

1476
01:18:47,280 --> 01:18:50,760
Speaker 3: The brothers, Yeah, so they are in their forties during

1477
01:18:50,840 --> 01:18:54,720
Speaker 3: this expedition and then they both died during World War Two.

1478
01:18:55,439 --> 01:18:59,000
Speaker 3: So Ted was fifty six years old when he was

1479
01:18:59,640 --> 01:19:02,080
Speaker 3: the old general to land with the first wave of

1480
01:19:02,160 --> 01:19:05,400
Speaker 3: troops on D Day in Normandy, and he's very famous

1481
01:19:05,600 --> 01:19:08,800
Speaker 3: for getting up on that beach and saying we'll start

1482
01:19:08,880 --> 01:19:11,800
Speaker 3: the war right from here. He was this this real

1483
01:19:11,960 --> 01:19:16,000
Speaker 3: hero of that moment. Many people did not think that

1484
01:19:16,120 --> 01:19:19,280
Speaker 3: he would survive that day, and he was hiding a

1485
01:19:19,360 --> 01:19:22,360
Speaker 3: heart condition, and so he ends up dying just a

1486
01:19:22,439 --> 01:19:23,640
Speaker 3: few days later from that.

1487
01:19:24,760 --> 01:19:30,000
Speaker 1: Well, he lands on day one D Day, Yes, yeah,

1488
01:19:30,080 --> 01:19:33,360
Speaker 1: the only conditioned a couple of days later at fifty.

1489
01:19:33,120 --> 01:19:33,840
Speaker 2: Something years old.

1490
01:19:34,120 --> 01:19:38,160
Speaker 3: Six, Yeah, and receives the Medal of Honor posthumously for

1491
01:19:38,640 --> 01:19:39,960
Speaker 3: his actions on D Day.

1492
01:19:40,680 --> 01:19:43,000
Speaker 1: Really. Yeah, Oh, shouldn't know that.

1493
01:19:43,240 --> 01:19:43,400
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1494
01:19:43,439 --> 01:19:46,439
Speaker 3: Both brothers served in both World War One and World

1495
01:19:46,520 --> 01:19:49,840
Speaker 3: War Two, and both got involved in World War Two

1496
01:19:50,080 --> 01:19:52,200
Speaker 3: very early before the US got involved.

1497
01:19:52,439 --> 01:19:56,400
Speaker 1: Well, how okay, how is he at the time of

1498
01:19:56,479 --> 01:19:59,040
Speaker 1: this expedition. He's not in the military, No.

1499
01:19:59,200 --> 01:19:59,560
Speaker 3: He's not.

1500
01:20:00,400 --> 01:20:03,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, So he enrolls somehow in his forties, advances to

1501
01:20:04,160 --> 01:20:05,080
Speaker 1: a general ship.

1502
01:20:05,560 --> 01:20:07,720
Speaker 3: Well, I mean he had, you know, a few connections

1503
01:20:08,520 --> 01:20:09,000
Speaker 3: to get there.

1504
01:20:09,360 --> 01:20:10,799
Speaker 2: It's a different model of military.

1505
01:20:10,840 --> 01:20:14,040
Speaker 1: But he's a command he's in the command position. Yeah,

1506
01:20:15,280 --> 01:20:18,479
Speaker 1: by nineteen forty four, Yes, he is.

1507
01:20:19,680 --> 01:20:21,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean he had also served in World War

1508
01:20:21,880 --> 01:20:24,240
Speaker 3: One and so he was certainly.

1509
01:20:25,960 --> 01:20:28,040
Speaker 1: This was kind of sandwich between the two experiences.

1510
01:20:28,200 --> 01:20:30,280
Speaker 3: Yes, and he was. He had a big role in

1511
01:20:30,360 --> 01:20:33,439
Speaker 3: Operation Torch, so he had He did have quite a

1512
01:20:33,479 --> 01:20:35,759
Speaker 3: few years of leadership during World War Two.

1513
01:20:35,720 --> 01:20:37,400
Speaker 1: Before he died, dies of a heart condition.

1514
01:20:37,640 --> 01:20:40,840
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, he'd been hiding it from his doctors. He

1515
01:20:40,840 --> 01:20:43,440
Speaker 3: didn't want anyone to know because.

1516
01:20:43,160 --> 01:20:44,880
Speaker 1: He thought they'd pull him from service.

1517
01:20:45,000 --> 01:20:45,679
Speaker 3: Yes, exactly.

1518
01:20:46,720 --> 01:20:49,160
Speaker 1: You'd almost think that he'd been pulled from doing anything

1519
01:20:49,800 --> 01:20:53,040
Speaker 1: risky just from a pr standpoint, do you know what

1520
01:20:53,080 --> 01:20:56,559
Speaker 1: I mean? Like the'd be like a high profile right,

1521
01:20:56,960 --> 01:21:02,479
Speaker 1: like a high profile fatality that the army wouldn't want. Yeah,

1522
01:21:02,960 --> 01:21:04,040
Speaker 1: the army might not want.

1523
01:21:03,880 --> 01:21:06,240
Speaker 3: In some way, you know, I can I can see

1524
01:21:06,240 --> 01:21:09,080
Speaker 3: why you would think that. But the Roosevelts were certainly

1525
01:21:09,200 --> 01:21:11,960
Speaker 3: very passionate about serving in the military. It was really

1526
01:21:12,040 --> 01:21:14,960
Speaker 3: part of their their heritage. And you know, even during

1527
01:21:15,000 --> 01:21:18,040
Speaker 3: World War One, you have their younger brother, Quentin, who died.

1528
01:21:19,280 --> 01:21:22,680
Speaker 1: So the one dies from the heart condition towards the

1529
01:21:22,720 --> 01:21:25,240
Speaker 1: end of World War Two, yes, and then and then

1530
01:21:25,280 --> 01:21:26,559
Speaker 1: the other brother what comes to him?

1531
01:21:27,120 --> 01:21:30,560
Speaker 3: So he had died earlier in nineteen forty three, so

1532
01:21:30,720 --> 01:21:33,719
Speaker 3: he was also involved in World War Two. He served

1533
01:21:33,800 --> 01:21:36,559
Speaker 3: in several different places in the Middle East and in Europe,

1534
01:21:37,600 --> 01:21:42,080
Speaker 3: but he was struggling. He had become an alcoholic and

1535
01:21:42,520 --> 01:21:45,160
Speaker 3: he was not receiving great treatment for that, and so

1536
01:21:45,280 --> 01:21:49,640
Speaker 3: they sent him to a fort in Alaska. Fort Richardson. Oh,

1537
01:21:50,000 --> 01:21:51,719
Speaker 3: and he ended up killing himself.

1538
01:21:51,840 --> 01:21:52,559
Speaker 1: That's where.

1539
01:21:54,600 --> 01:21:57,240
Speaker 3: Yeah, really yeah. He was talking to a buddy of

1540
01:21:57,320 --> 01:22:00,080
Speaker 3: his and he he said, you know this by he

1541
01:22:00,200 --> 01:22:02,200
Speaker 3: was like, oh, you know, what are you doing tonight?

1542
01:22:02,280 --> 01:22:04,439
Speaker 3: And they were chatting a little bit and his buddy said, oh,

1543
01:22:04,479 --> 01:22:06,760
Speaker 3: I'm going to go to sleep, and Kermit says, I

1544
01:22:06,920 --> 01:22:07,920
Speaker 3: wish I could sleep.

1545
01:22:09,880 --> 01:22:11,919
Speaker 1: He killed himself in Fort Richardson, Alaska.

1546
01:22:13,040 --> 01:22:16,320
Speaker 3: Yes he did. Yeah, it's a it's such a sad story.

1547
01:22:16,400 --> 01:22:18,519
Speaker 3: You know, a gunshot.

1548
01:22:20,840 --> 01:22:24,040
Speaker 1: Do you know what kind of gone? I don't sorry,

1549
01:22:25,280 --> 01:22:26,280
Speaker 1: where did he shoot himself?

1550
01:22:26,320 --> 01:22:31,080
Speaker 3: You know, I know it was in the head, son

1551
01:22:31,120 --> 01:22:31,519
Speaker 3: of a bitch.

1552
01:22:31,560 --> 01:22:36,200
Speaker 1: And Fort Richardson. This is like such a huge blank

1553
01:22:36,280 --> 01:22:41,400
Speaker 1: spot for me, man, you know, like these two the Pandas.

1554
01:22:41,560 --> 01:22:45,120
Speaker 1: It's like, somehow I just have missed all this, Like, yeah, it's.

1555
01:22:45,000 --> 01:22:49,240
Speaker 3: An interesting They haven't been written about much. And I

1556
01:22:49,600 --> 01:22:51,920
Speaker 3: do feel like it's important to give these brothers their

1557
01:22:52,000 --> 01:22:55,559
Speaker 3: due because they they really did they you know, they

1558
01:22:55,680 --> 01:23:00,839
Speaker 3: really furthered their father's their father's mission and of combining

1559
01:23:01,000 --> 01:23:04,120
Speaker 3: conservation and hunting. It was something they're very passionate about.

1560
01:23:04,960 --> 01:23:09,720
Speaker 3: And the sexpedition was incredibly successful at the time, and

1561
01:23:09,880 --> 01:23:12,720
Speaker 3: certainly the after effects were not what they expected. The

1562
01:23:12,800 --> 01:23:15,960
Speaker 3: consequences are not what they thought would happen. But what

1563
01:23:16,080 --> 01:23:19,320
Speaker 3: you really see is both brothers who who felt passionate

1564
01:23:19,360 --> 01:23:23,240
Speaker 3: about protecting the panda and were always always cared about conservation.

1565
01:23:24,040 --> 01:23:26,559
Speaker 1: What year did their What year did their old man die?

1566
01:23:27,040 --> 01:23:28,960
Speaker 3: He died in nineteen nineteen.

1567
01:23:28,880 --> 01:23:32,639
Speaker 1: Okay, and they were what age then?

1568
01:23:33,880 --> 01:23:36,120
Speaker 3: So let me think about that. Yeah, they would have been,

1569
01:23:36,560 --> 01:23:38,760
Speaker 3: and they were both in World War One when they

1570
01:23:38,840 --> 01:23:42,280
Speaker 3: received a telegram that said the old Lion has died.

1571
01:23:42,560 --> 01:23:44,840
Speaker 3: Was how the telegram put it to let him know their.

1572
01:23:44,720 --> 01:23:46,360
Speaker 1: Dad had died, And they had to be like, that

1573
01:23:46,479 --> 01:23:51,760
Speaker 1: must be referring to our father. Feeling was referred to

1574
01:23:51,840 --> 01:23:56,719
Speaker 1: our father confirm the old lie.

1575
01:23:56,880 --> 01:23:58,640
Speaker 2: I'm trying to make a joke about that and the

1576
01:23:59,000 --> 01:24:00,720
Speaker 2: bear hunt game that they played.

1577
01:24:00,439 --> 01:24:00,519
Speaker 3: But.

1578
01:24:02,960 --> 01:24:07,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, like dude, are they talking about dad? Yeah, so

1579
01:24:08,160 --> 01:24:08,880
Speaker 1: that's terrible.

1580
01:24:10,400 --> 01:24:11,880
Speaker 2: I didn't realize Dad got a lion.

1581
01:24:13,400 --> 01:24:16,360
Speaker 3: They had known it was coming. He was definitely weaker

1582
01:24:16,439 --> 01:24:18,880
Speaker 3: ever since the River of Dowt that just weakened town.

1583
01:24:19,080 --> 01:24:20,839
Speaker 3: He was never the same after that expedition.

1584
01:24:21,080 --> 01:24:23,799
Speaker 2: And he must have been seventy something.

1585
01:24:24,320 --> 01:24:25,439
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, he was kidding.

1586
01:24:26,520 --> 01:24:27,639
Speaker 2: Yeah, fifties.

1587
01:24:27,800 --> 01:24:30,200
Speaker 1: Now what did these brothers? Did these brothers have kids?

1588
01:24:31,120 --> 01:24:34,280
Speaker 3: They did? Yeah, And actually I've been in contact with

1589
01:24:34,640 --> 01:24:37,559
Speaker 3: a number of members of the family now, like one

1590
01:24:37,600 --> 01:24:39,559
Speaker 3: of the kids. I mean, they all have the same name.

1591
01:24:39,640 --> 01:24:42,240
Speaker 3: They're all Ted, they're all Kermit, they're all Ellen Moore,

1592
01:24:42,479 --> 01:24:44,840
Speaker 3: just the same names over and over again. But it's

1593
01:24:45,000 --> 01:24:48,240
Speaker 3: it's been interesting to talk to family members today because

1594
01:24:48,400 --> 01:24:52,640
Speaker 3: they still have photographs and artifacts from this trip. Is

1595
01:24:52,680 --> 01:24:54,040
Speaker 3: that right, Yeah, it's pretty cool.

1596
01:24:55,080 --> 01:24:57,000
Speaker 1: What a wild story. Yeah, I just can't believe how,

1597
01:24:59,360 --> 01:25:05,120
Speaker 1: you know, like like Theodore Roosevelt, he's inescapable. Yeah, do

1598
01:25:05,160 --> 01:25:06,840
Speaker 1: you know what I mean? All the exploits and the

1599
01:25:07,240 --> 01:25:13,280
Speaker 1: timelines and then just like these boys, it's just one

1600
01:25:13,360 --> 01:25:15,320
Speaker 1: of those hadn't heard about this stuff.

1601
01:25:15,720 --> 01:25:19,840
Speaker 2: One of the sort of strange things that occurred to

1602
01:25:19,880 --> 01:25:22,960
Speaker 2: me when I was doing my when I was in

1603
01:25:23,000 --> 01:25:26,360
Speaker 2: grad school because the all the Boone Crockett Club records

1604
01:25:26,400 --> 01:25:30,719
Speaker 2: are at the University of Montana. So I was reading

1605
01:25:30,840 --> 01:25:32,760
Speaker 2: a little bit about the Boone Crockett Club in the

1606
01:25:32,800 --> 01:25:35,400
Speaker 2: post war era, and I mean there's like a real

1607
01:25:35,520 --> 01:25:38,599
Speaker 2: crisis of confidence, it seems, just when you're reading things

1608
01:25:38,640 --> 01:25:43,560
Speaker 2: because all of the founding generation dies in, you know,

1609
01:25:43,760 --> 01:25:46,200
Speaker 2: like in the teens and twenties and thirties, and then

1610
01:25:47,000 --> 01:25:49,400
Speaker 2: they have these sons and there's a lot of a

1611
01:25:49,439 --> 01:25:52,120
Speaker 2: lot of members of the club are sons, like Charles Sheldon,

1612
01:25:52,680 --> 01:25:57,120
Speaker 2: Charles Sheldon's son, Billy Sheldon. It's like sons carrying on

1613
01:25:57,280 --> 01:26:01,519
Speaker 2: their father's legacies and also wondering how they push things

1614
01:26:01,600 --> 01:26:06,720
Speaker 2: forward and make names for themselves. And yeah, it's really

1615
01:26:06,760 --> 01:26:10,320
Speaker 2: fascinating when you think about I feel like oftentimes we

1616
01:26:10,400 --> 01:26:15,439
Speaker 2: think about conservation especially as like these moments, like there's

1617
01:26:15,479 --> 01:26:17,640
Speaker 2: this moment of the Boone and Crockett Club and the

1618
01:26:18,000 --> 01:26:21,840
Speaker 2: sort of progressive movement, this early conservation model, and then

1619
01:26:21,880 --> 01:26:25,400
Speaker 2: there's this you know, like the nineteen thirties, right or

1620
01:26:25,439 --> 01:26:29,800
Speaker 2: the nineteen twenties, nineteen thirties when you have but there's

1621
01:26:29,880 --> 01:26:32,920
Speaker 2: continuity between all those and as we know today just

1622
01:26:33,000 --> 01:26:36,479
Speaker 2: from people that we interact with, like in the conservation world,

1623
01:26:36,600 --> 01:26:39,320
Speaker 2: like it often is a family tradition.

1624
01:26:40,479 --> 01:26:42,559
Speaker 1: And yeah, like this filled in a.

1625
01:26:42,560 --> 01:26:45,439
Speaker 2: Lot of blank spots for me because like you hear

1626
01:26:45,520 --> 01:26:50,360
Speaker 2: about Teddy Junior and Kermit, but it's really I've never

1627
01:26:50,520 --> 01:26:52,360
Speaker 2: had someone sort of put a face.

1628
01:26:52,200 --> 01:26:52,760
Speaker 1: On them for me.

1629
01:26:52,880 --> 01:26:55,080
Speaker 2: So it's really that's what I've done really fascinating.

1630
01:26:55,840 --> 01:26:58,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, they're interesting men, and it's just fascinating to me

1631
01:26:59,160 --> 01:27:02,680
Speaker 3: the friendships they continued after the expedition, and how they

1632
01:27:02,960 --> 01:27:06,080
Speaker 3: supported Jack and his dreams. He wanted to become a scientist,

1633
01:27:06,160 --> 01:27:08,800
Speaker 3: he wanted to do an expedition of his own, and

1634
01:27:09,080 --> 01:27:12,960
Speaker 3: they both helped to fund that. And it's you know,

1635
01:27:13,040 --> 01:27:15,960
Speaker 3: it's just they were very different than I expected them

1636
01:27:16,040 --> 01:27:18,479
Speaker 3: to be. And that's always fun when you find a

1637
01:27:18,560 --> 01:27:19,680
Speaker 3: story in history like this.

1638
01:27:20,720 --> 01:27:22,920
Speaker 1: Have you ever personally been able to see a panda

1639
01:27:23,080 --> 01:27:25,719
Speaker 1: on native ground in native range? I wish.

1640
01:27:26,240 --> 01:27:28,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's not easy to do. You know, even if

1641
01:27:28,320 --> 01:27:30,400
Speaker 3: you go to China and you go to one of

1642
01:27:30,520 --> 01:27:34,000
Speaker 3: the research reserves, you're really seeing them in an artificial

1643
01:27:34,160 --> 01:27:37,160
Speaker 3: environment compared to what it's like to see them in

1644
01:27:37,240 --> 01:27:41,200
Speaker 3: the wild. And I spoke with several different panda researchers

1645
01:27:41,439 --> 01:27:45,120
Speaker 3: for this book, and they told me the most difficult

1646
01:27:45,200 --> 01:27:49,040
Speaker 3: part of doing this research is finding a panda. Even today,

1647
01:27:49,640 --> 01:27:51,880
Speaker 3: even with all the technology we have, even with the

1648
01:27:51,960 --> 01:27:54,120
Speaker 3: tagging we have, you know, we don't have to go

1649
01:27:54,200 --> 01:27:56,760
Speaker 3: out and shoot animals as much these days. We have

1650
01:27:56,840 --> 01:28:01,720
Speaker 3: other ways that I'm sure future historians and scientists will

1651
01:28:01,760 --> 01:28:06,519
Speaker 3: find barbaric and you know, we use tranquilizer guns, and

1652
01:28:09,680 --> 01:28:13,360
Speaker 3: I'm sure it'll be judged in decades to come. But

1653
01:28:13,439 --> 01:28:16,719
Speaker 3: it's incredible to me how difficult it is even today

1654
01:28:16,760 --> 01:28:19,519
Speaker 3: for these researchers to go out and find panda in

1655
01:28:19,600 --> 01:28:19,960
Speaker 3: the wild.

1656
01:28:20,680 --> 01:28:21,920
Speaker 1: How many are in the wild now.

1657
01:28:23,000 --> 01:28:27,360
Speaker 3: It's interesting because today there are about two thousand, but

1658
01:28:27,479 --> 01:28:30,439
Speaker 3: that is coming back from a low of one thousand

1659
01:28:30,880 --> 01:28:33,920
Speaker 3: in the nineteen seventies, So there was there was a

1660
01:28:34,080 --> 01:28:37,800
Speaker 3: time period where it was really difficult for pandas, and

1661
01:28:37,920 --> 01:28:40,640
Speaker 3: it's it's really thanks to sort of that continuity that

1662
01:28:40,680 --> 01:28:44,000
Speaker 3: you're talking about about these protections that have been given

1663
01:28:44,120 --> 01:28:47,800
Speaker 3: to them to protect their habitats, which have just become

1664
01:28:47,920 --> 01:28:53,080
Speaker 3: more fragmented now. And it's what's fascinating is that the

1665
01:28:53,160 --> 01:28:55,880
Speaker 3: protections that have been given to pandas are also helping

1666
01:28:55,920 --> 01:28:57,439
Speaker 3: other species in China.

1667
01:28:58,920 --> 01:29:01,000
Speaker 1: I would have, like I said I said earlier, when

1668
01:29:01,040 --> 01:29:03,280
Speaker 1: I was surprised that there was only two thousand, somehow

1669
01:29:03,320 --> 01:29:05,960
Speaker 1: in my head I had the bottleneck being much tighter. Yeah,

1670
01:29:06,520 --> 01:29:09,479
Speaker 1: so they went through a fifty percent decline, yeah, which

1671
01:29:10,960 --> 01:29:13,400
Speaker 1: well it is because the pure numbers are so low. Yeah,

1672
01:29:13,640 --> 01:29:17,520
Speaker 1: but like you normally, normally these imperiled species, the bottleneck

1673
01:29:17,640 --> 01:29:19,720
Speaker 1: is much tighter than a fifty percent reduction. But you're

1674
01:29:19,760 --> 01:29:23,000
Speaker 1: usually talking about like a million animals and yeah, you know, yeah,

1675
01:29:23,120 --> 01:29:25,479
Speaker 1: but to take you only got two thousand, you whittle

1676
01:29:25,520 --> 01:29:27,240
Speaker 1: it down to a thousand. I just want to if

1677
01:29:27,280 --> 01:29:29,880
Speaker 1: you'd said it at one point, there's forty of them,

1678
01:29:30,200 --> 01:29:33,879
Speaker 1: you know, out of bend like that sounds yeah, my perception,

1679
01:29:34,360 --> 01:29:37,800
Speaker 1: my completely uneducated, ignorant idea of what happened, I would

1680
01:29:37,800 --> 01:29:38,599
Speaker 1: have guessed it was less.

1681
01:29:38,800 --> 01:29:40,280
Speaker 3: It's nice I can make up numbers here.

1682
01:29:41,760 --> 01:29:44,599
Speaker 2: It's just funny to me because they're you know, it's

1683
01:29:44,720 --> 01:29:48,040
Speaker 2: when you're when you're a little kid in the eighties

1684
01:29:48,120 --> 01:29:51,360
Speaker 2: or early nineties and you like hear about endangered animals, right,

1685
01:29:51,479 --> 01:29:54,560
Speaker 2: like the pandas one of the poster children for that.

1686
01:29:54,800 --> 01:29:59,400
Speaker 2: But I've you know, spent most of my life thinking

1687
01:29:59,400 --> 01:30:02,760
Speaker 2: about animal and panda is just one that's always sort

1688
01:30:02,800 --> 01:30:05,719
Speaker 2: of out here, is like an other like I can't

1689
01:30:05,800 --> 01:30:09,040
Speaker 2: picture them in the wild. I can't, like you don't

1690
01:30:09,280 --> 01:30:12,360
Speaker 2: have you don't you don't see like footage in a

1691
01:30:12,479 --> 01:30:16,360
Speaker 2: nature documentary of a panda doing things like for whatever reason,

1692
01:30:16,439 --> 01:30:21,560
Speaker 2: they they're very unique, just sort of in my imagination

1693
01:30:23,240 --> 01:30:25,880
Speaker 2: and like I guess in sort of the cultural imagination,

1694
01:30:26,080 --> 01:30:29,960
Speaker 2: Like it's a it's a very strange animal when you

1695
01:30:30,120 --> 01:30:32,560
Speaker 2: just think about what do you know about pandas, What

1696
01:30:32,680 --> 01:30:36,640
Speaker 2: do you associate with pandas? Yeah, I don't know. And

1697
01:30:36,720 --> 01:30:39,280
Speaker 2: then it starts to make sense when you realize how

1698
01:30:39,400 --> 01:30:42,800
Speaker 2: rare they are and how recently they were discovered.

1699
01:30:43,040 --> 01:30:45,160
Speaker 1: You want to know, the biggest problem for them from

1700
01:30:45,200 --> 01:30:48,840
Speaker 1: a PR standpoint is if they were like bad mofos

1701
01:30:48,840 --> 01:30:51,760
Speaker 1: and always scratching people up, Yeah, then people would know

1702
01:30:51,800 --> 01:30:57,719
Speaker 1: about them. I think the chillness works against them for PR.

1703
01:31:00,439 --> 01:31:00,639
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1704
01:31:01,560 --> 01:31:03,679
Speaker 1: I mean, like like I'm kind of on a leopard

1705
01:31:03,760 --> 01:31:05,000
Speaker 1: kick right now. I've never seen it. Well I did

1706
01:31:05,000 --> 01:31:07,280
Speaker 1: see a leopards a leopards. Well, I'm gonna look a

1707
01:31:07,280 --> 01:31:09,160
Speaker 1: little bit of a leopard kick. One of the things

1708
01:31:09,200 --> 01:31:13,040
Speaker 1: that fuels a leopard kick is a leopard kick is

1709
01:31:13,160 --> 01:31:17,360
Speaker 1: learning about just how like effortlessly they dust people off

1710
01:31:17,400 --> 01:31:19,760
Speaker 1: when they put their mind to it. And so it

1711
01:31:19,880 --> 01:31:24,320
Speaker 1: creates that like that ferocity is respected from far, do

1712
01:31:24,360 --> 01:31:25,880
Speaker 1: you know what I mean? Like, like you go to

1713
01:31:25,880 --> 01:31:27,560
Speaker 1: a lot of people like name a jellyfish. I'll be

1714
01:31:27,640 --> 01:31:30,200
Speaker 1: like the box jelly Why is that because it kills people?

1715
01:31:31,120 --> 01:31:33,800
Speaker 1: Do you know what I'm saying? Like the snakes, the

1716
01:31:33,960 --> 01:31:36,519
Speaker 1: bad killing snakes are the snakes that people have a

1717
01:31:36,600 --> 01:31:37,880
Speaker 1: high level of awareness about.

1718
01:31:38,120 --> 01:31:40,679
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I think you might be right, because even

1719
01:31:40,800 --> 01:31:43,400
Speaker 3: when it comes to breeding, they're just too chill. Yeah,

1720
01:31:43,600 --> 01:31:45,120
Speaker 3: they would do so much better if there's just a

1721
01:31:45,160 --> 01:31:46,040
Speaker 3: little fire in there.

1722
01:31:46,240 --> 01:31:49,200
Speaker 1: Yeah it was. I'm not trying to advise them or anything,

1723
01:31:49,320 --> 01:31:53,000
Speaker 1: but just like people, the word would have your perception

1724
01:31:53,120 --> 01:31:53,840
Speaker 1: of it to be different.

1725
01:31:53,920 --> 01:31:56,880
Speaker 2: There's one animal that in nineteen twenty nine could have

1726
01:31:56,960 --> 01:31:59,519
Speaker 2: just taken one swipe and changed the whole trajectory of

1727
01:31:59,600 --> 01:31:59,920
Speaker 2: this spiece.

1728
01:32:00,240 --> 01:32:02,439
Speaker 1: If he'd have been like if he'd have thought, I'm

1729
01:32:02,439 --> 01:32:03,960
Speaker 1: going to come down out of this tree and I'm

1730
01:32:04,040 --> 01:32:05,880
Speaker 1: killing these two Roosevelt boys.

1731
01:32:06,920 --> 01:32:08,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, then you would have heard of this way sooner.

1732
01:32:09,000 --> 01:32:10,920
Speaker 3: The story would not have been buried for as long.

1733
01:32:11,880 --> 01:32:15,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, but they just killed like a little Teddy bear man.

1734
01:32:15,120 --> 01:32:16,960
Speaker 1: You know the Teddy Bear story? Is that in the book.

1735
01:32:17,080 --> 01:32:18,920
Speaker 3: It is in the book. Yeah, it's a hard one.

1736
01:32:19,000 --> 01:32:22,120
Speaker 1: I tell dude, it's a hard one to tell. So

1737
01:32:22,240 --> 01:32:24,640
Speaker 1: what's your next book going? To be about. You know, yeah, I.

1738
01:32:24,640 --> 01:32:27,840
Speaker 3: Don't know yet, but I really enjoyed getting to talk

1739
01:32:27,880 --> 01:32:31,719
Speaker 3: about animals and nature and expeditions like this. It's it's fun.

1740
01:32:31,760 --> 01:32:32,760
Speaker 1: I got the hot tip for you.

1741
01:32:33,479 --> 01:32:33,800
Speaker 3: Tell me.

1742
01:32:35,160 --> 01:32:37,280
Speaker 1: I don't know if I should tell you now? What

1743
01:32:37,400 --> 01:32:40,599
Speaker 1: if all people learn about the hot tip? Okay, tip?

1744
01:32:40,840 --> 01:32:43,200
Speaker 2: How quick are you turning out a book? Not very

1745
01:32:43,240 --> 01:32:44,840
Speaker 2: because a lot of people are going to hear this tip.

1746
01:32:45,000 --> 01:32:51,679
Speaker 1: Here's a hot tip. Here's a hot tip, Bradbury. That's good. Yeah,

1747
01:32:51,960 --> 01:32:56,479
Speaker 1: so does this botanist. Okay, And right around eighteen eleven,

1748
01:32:56,760 --> 01:32:59,200
Speaker 1: eighteen ten, there's this botanist. He wants to go explore

1749
01:32:59,240 --> 01:33:04,120
Speaker 1: the American West and take botany samples. He's actually a start.

1750
01:33:04,240 --> 01:33:07,280
Speaker 1: He's like, one of his observations is about the you know,

1751
01:33:07,360 --> 01:33:10,519
Speaker 1: honey bees aren't native, so looking at like how honey

1752
01:33:10,600 --> 01:33:12,439
Speaker 1: bees moved across the country. But he goes out and

1753
01:33:12,439 --> 01:33:15,760
Speaker 1: has all these crazy adventures collecting plants, and he's got

1754
01:33:15,800 --> 01:33:18,479
Speaker 1: this assistant with them. They get to the end of

1755
01:33:18,520 --> 01:33:22,080
Speaker 1: their expedition and Bradbury is he's going to do some

1756
01:33:22,200 --> 01:33:25,879
Speaker 1: other little side trip, but he sends his his lackey

1757
01:33:26,800 --> 01:33:32,599
Speaker 1: home with all the samples. He then delays his timing

1758
01:33:32,640 --> 01:33:34,519
Speaker 1: a little bit and gets kind of rolled up in

1759
01:33:34,600 --> 01:33:36,519
Speaker 1: the New Madrid you know, you know when the New

1760
01:33:36,560 --> 01:33:39,960
Speaker 1: Magered earthquake, when the when the when the rivers ran backwards,

1761
01:33:41,000 --> 01:33:44,920
Speaker 1: like the Mississippi ran backward. Okay, it was all tied

1762
01:33:44,960 --> 01:33:49,000
Speaker 1: into like to come see. Okay, there's a huge, huge

1763
01:33:49,400 --> 01:33:54,920
Speaker 1: isistatic rebound earthquake causes all this decimation is tied up

1764
01:33:54,960 --> 01:33:58,400
Speaker 1: in all this crazy shit. Then he's still trying to

1765
01:33:58,439 --> 01:34:02,040
Speaker 1: get home. In the War of eighteen twelve breaks out,

1766
01:34:02,479 --> 01:34:05,040
Speaker 1: He's delayed to damn long. By the time he makes

1767
01:34:05,040 --> 01:34:09,400
Speaker 1: it back to England, his assistant has like written him

1768
01:34:09,439 --> 01:34:13,200
Speaker 1: off or whatever and has published the material, has published

1769
01:34:13,240 --> 01:34:14,519
Speaker 1: the material on his own.

1770
01:34:15,760 --> 01:34:17,000
Speaker 3: Oh that's tough.

1771
01:34:17,640 --> 01:34:20,120
Speaker 1: But if you like expeditions and everything, there's no like

1772
01:34:20,280 --> 01:34:23,719
Speaker 1: really good book that I'm aware of. There's no big, full,

1773
01:34:24,720 --> 01:34:27,600
Speaker 1: like balls out book on the Bradbury Expedition and his

1774
01:34:27,680 --> 01:34:28,639
Speaker 1: whole crazy story.

1775
01:34:29,000 --> 01:34:30,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, it sounds really interesting.

1776
01:34:31,320 --> 01:34:33,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, we should probably cut that out.

1777
01:34:33,800 --> 01:34:38,479
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, no, I mean I think it's fascinating too that.

1778
01:34:39,800 --> 01:34:40,560
Speaker 1: So you're going to write it.

1779
01:34:41,200 --> 01:34:42,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'll get on it right now.

1780
01:34:42,840 --> 01:34:47,240
Speaker 2: Going back, I mean, like the age of expeditions, like

1781
01:34:47,800 --> 01:34:51,080
Speaker 2: oftentimes I think about them being so long ago. But

1782
01:34:51,240 --> 01:34:53,519
Speaker 2: the idea that this is taking place in the twenties

1783
01:34:53,560 --> 01:34:56,760
Speaker 2: and thirties obviously, like the River of Doubt, you know,

1784
01:34:57,640 --> 01:35:01,040
Speaker 2: is one thing, But then the twenties, late twenties, and

1785
01:35:01,120 --> 01:35:03,320
Speaker 2: you also think about, you know, like this sort of time.

1786
01:35:03,360 --> 01:35:05,439
Speaker 2: There's a lot of stuff going on in Asia at

1787
01:35:05,479 --> 01:35:09,679
Speaker 2: the time with mountaineering and all that kind of stuff.

1788
01:35:09,800 --> 01:35:13,120
Speaker 2: Like it's just a it's a really fascinating period in geography.

1789
01:35:13,880 --> 01:35:16,960
Speaker 3: It is because at this point nobody knows what the

1790
01:35:17,040 --> 01:35:20,360
Speaker 3: tallest mountain in the world is. They knows the deepest

1791
01:35:20,400 --> 01:35:23,160
Speaker 3: part of the ocean. It's there's so much exploration still

1792
01:35:23,200 --> 01:35:23,479
Speaker 3: to come.

1793
01:35:23,680 --> 01:35:25,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's fascinating.

1794
01:35:25,640 --> 01:35:31,479
Speaker 1: Hm hm, congratulations, Thank you hard Right Books.

1795
01:35:31,640 --> 01:35:35,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, this was pretty fun though. I had such a

1796
01:35:35,240 --> 01:35:37,920
Speaker 3: good time going through all these letters and journals and

1797
01:35:38,640 --> 01:35:40,760
Speaker 3: it's just so interesting and there are just so many

1798
01:35:40,800 --> 01:35:44,080
Speaker 3: weird parts too, Like the Roosevelts had such interesting reading

1799
01:35:44,160 --> 01:35:48,880
Speaker 3: material on the trail. They read Jane Austen and Jane Eyre. Yeah,

1800
01:35:49,880 --> 01:35:53,040
Speaker 3: kinds of interesting novels. You wouldn't necessarily expect them to

1801
01:35:53,120 --> 01:35:55,160
Speaker 3: be pulling out on the snowy Himalayas.

1802
01:35:55,720 --> 01:35:58,120
Speaker 1: How many. Uh, how long did it take you to

1803
01:35:58,200 --> 01:35:58,720
Speaker 1: do the whole thing?

1804
01:35:59,479 --> 01:36:02,720
Speaker 3: About five five years from start to finish. For this one,

1805
01:36:02,800 --> 01:36:04,880
Speaker 3: it was you know, it takes a long time to

1806
01:36:05,880 --> 01:36:08,439
Speaker 3: find the material, and I was fortunate with this book

1807
01:36:08,479 --> 01:36:10,960
Speaker 3: because I was able to get journals from every member

1808
01:36:11,040 --> 01:36:14,240
Speaker 3: of the expedition and it was great to just help compare,

1809
01:36:14,400 --> 01:36:18,000
Speaker 3: really help me create these scenes in a lot of detail,

1810
01:36:18,400 --> 01:36:21,040
Speaker 3: and that's important, I think in nonfiction because you want

1811
01:36:21,080 --> 01:36:23,400
Speaker 3: it to feel like you're there, like you're on the

1812
01:36:23,520 --> 01:36:25,920
Speaker 3: trail and all those details are part of it.

1813
01:36:26,400 --> 01:36:29,360
Speaker 1: And you were doing magazine work during that time. Yeah.

1814
01:36:29,720 --> 01:36:32,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, And I do some ghost writing too, so I

1815
01:36:32,200 --> 01:36:40,120
Speaker 3: kind of for who Yeah really, yeah, it's fun. I

1816
01:36:40,280 --> 01:36:43,160
Speaker 3: like ghost writing because it's you know, there's no ego involved.

1817
01:36:43,200 --> 01:36:45,200
Speaker 3: You're just trying to write the best book you can,

1818
01:36:45,320 --> 01:36:46,560
Speaker 3: so it's kind of a fun thing to do.

1819
01:36:49,040 --> 01:36:51,720
Speaker 5: I read that you studied Chinese for a number of

1820
01:36:51,840 --> 01:36:54,559
Speaker 5: years too, with some of the source material and Mandarin

1821
01:36:54,680 --> 01:36:57,400
Speaker 5: that you were translating, or it was more oral with

1822
01:36:58,000 --> 01:36:58,960
Speaker 5: any interviews.

1823
01:36:59,320 --> 01:37:02,879
Speaker 3: Yes, no, I studied Mandarin in college, and my grandfather

1824
01:37:03,000 --> 01:37:05,960
Speaker 3: lived in China for about a decade, and so I've

1825
01:37:06,000 --> 01:37:09,439
Speaker 3: traveled quite a bit in China with him, and so

1826
01:37:09,920 --> 01:37:12,120
Speaker 3: it was fun for me because I've always felt a

1827
01:37:12,200 --> 01:37:14,519
Speaker 3: connection with the country and so to be able to

1828
01:37:15,479 --> 01:37:18,320
Speaker 3: see it through a really different lens of history, a

1829
01:37:18,439 --> 01:37:22,040
Speaker 3: completely different time period, into places that just they just

1830
01:37:22,120 --> 01:37:25,600
Speaker 3: don't exist. Like this trail that I describe, it's not

1831
01:37:25,760 --> 01:37:29,680
Speaker 3: there today. You cannot find that trail, and so to

1832
01:37:29,760 --> 01:37:32,519
Speaker 3: be able to travel to really feel like you're there

1833
01:37:32,640 --> 01:37:34,880
Speaker 3: during that time period was just so fascinating.

1834
01:37:37,200 --> 01:37:38,920
Speaker 1: Well, thanks for coming on, Thank you.

1835
01:37:39,040 --> 01:37:40,040
Speaker 3: I so appreciate it.

1836
01:37:40,160 --> 01:37:44,920
Speaker 1: Yeah again, Nathalia every calls her Nat. That's me Nat Whole,

1837
01:37:45,240 --> 01:37:49,639
Speaker 1: Nathalia Whole. The Beast in the Clouds, the Roosevelt Brothers

1838
01:37:49,720 --> 01:37:53,599
Speaker 1: deadly quest to find the mythical giant panda. Is there

1839
01:37:53,720 --> 01:37:54,599
Speaker 1: like a lesser panda?

1840
01:37:56,400 --> 01:37:58,200
Speaker 3: Is there any there's the red Panda?

1841
01:37:58,560 --> 01:38:05,880
Speaker 1: Oh okay, I've seen one of those. The Beasts and

1842
01:38:05,920 --> 01:38:10,600
Speaker 1: the Clouds. Check it out and learn about all the

1843
01:38:11,800 --> 01:38:13,840
Speaker 1: subtle details that we didn't include today.

1844
01:38:14,240 --> 01:38:15,559
Speaker 3: Yeah, there's plenty in there.

1845
01:38:15,680 --> 01:38:17,560
Speaker 1: Because you really kind of like shot yourself in the

1846
01:38:17,600 --> 01:38:19,800
Speaker 1: foot on that one, because you know you should have

1847
01:38:19,840 --> 01:38:21,280
Speaker 1: said you got to read it to find out if

1848
01:38:21,320 --> 01:38:21,840
Speaker 1: they get one.

1849
01:38:22,360 --> 01:38:25,360
Speaker 3: I kind of gave away the endoilers, you know they

1850
01:38:25,400 --> 01:38:26,040
Speaker 3: shot together.

1851
01:38:26,240 --> 01:38:27,320
Speaker 1: How the end of your thing?

1852
01:38:27,400 --> 01:38:28,559
Speaker 3: It like quick.

1853
01:38:30,760 --> 01:38:31,960
Speaker 1: And then be like you have to read the book

1854
01:38:32,000 --> 01:38:32,719
Speaker 1: to find out what happened.

1855
01:38:34,520 --> 01:38:35,280
Speaker 3: Let's go back.

1856
01:38:36,720 --> 01:38:40,599
Speaker 1: Another cut here, Phil, Thanks man, I appreciate you coming

1857
01:38:40,640 --> 01:38:43,639
Speaker 1: on when you finished that Bradbury book come back. Oh yeah,

1858
01:38:43,840 --> 01:38:47,479
Speaker 1: I got a lot of questions about that. I told

1859
01:38:47,520 --> 01:38:48,160
Speaker 1: you everything.

1860
01:38:48,240 --> 01:38:49,960
Speaker 2: I know, like some holes.

1861
01:38:50,280 --> 01:38:53,360
Speaker 1: There's some holes in my understanding. All right, thank you,

1862
01:38:54,439 --> 01:38:54,760
Speaker 1: thank you.

1863
01:38:55,200 --> 01:38:56,160
Speaker 3: I really appreciate it.