1 00:00:03,600 --> 00:00:06,880 Speaker 1: On this episode of Newchworld. According to my guests today, 2 00:00:07,360 --> 00:00:10,559 Speaker 1: where a quote Nation of Victims, and I have to 3 00:00:10,600 --> 00:00:12,920 Speaker 1: tell you, I wondered a little bit what he meant 4 00:00:12,960 --> 00:00:16,720 Speaker 1: by that. The premise of his new book is hardship 5 00:00:16,840 --> 00:00:20,080 Speaker 1: is now equated with victimhood. The pursuit of excellence and 6 00:00:20,120 --> 00:00:22,840 Speaker 1: exceptionalism are at the heart of the American identity, and 7 00:00:22,920 --> 00:00:26,159 Speaker 1: the disappearance of these ideals in our country leaves a 8 00:00:26,200 --> 00:00:29,760 Speaker 1: deep moral and cultural vacuum. And it's weak. But the 9 00:00:29,800 --> 00:00:33,479 Speaker 1: solution isn't to simply complain about it. It's to revive 10 00:00:33,520 --> 00:00:37,920 Speaker 1: a new cultural movement in America that puts excellence first again. 11 00:00:38,760 --> 00:00:42,720 Speaker 1: I've always agreed we are a country founded by American exceptionalism, 12 00:00:43,040 --> 00:00:46,360 Speaker 1: and I also believe that instilling those values in future 13 00:00:46,400 --> 00:00:51,200 Speaker 1: generations will continue America's competitive leadership in the world. Here 14 00:00:51,240 --> 00:00:54,280 Speaker 1: to discuss his new book, I'm really pleased to welcome 15 00:00:54,280 --> 00:00:59,240 Speaker 1: back my guest vivaque Remiswamy, somebody who I really enjoyed 16 00:00:59,240 --> 00:01:02,520 Speaker 1: about thirteen months ago. Well, we discussed his first New 17 00:01:02,600 --> 00:01:06,240 Speaker 1: York Times bestseller, Wokink. He is the author of the 18 00:01:06,280 --> 00:01:10,800 Speaker 1: new book Nation of Victim's Identity, Politics, The Death of 19 00:01:10,880 --> 00:01:20,200 Speaker 1: merit and the path back to excellence. Thank welcome and 20 00:01:20,360 --> 00:01:23,000 Speaker 1: thank you for joining me again on news World. Thanks 21 00:01:23,000 --> 00:01:24,880 Speaker 1: for having me. It's a pleasure to be here. When 22 00:01:24,880 --> 00:01:28,360 Speaker 1: we last spoke, you had created an instant bestseller. What 23 00:01:28,440 --> 00:01:30,759 Speaker 1: do you think it was about woke Ink that really 24 00:01:30,840 --> 00:01:34,440 Speaker 1: resonated with people? Well, you know, with Wokink, I actually 25 00:01:34,520 --> 00:01:36,720 Speaker 1: told a lot of just personal stories. Right. I had 26 00:01:36,760 --> 00:01:40,200 Speaker 1: been a CEO in elite corporate America. I had founded 27 00:01:40,240 --> 00:01:43,000 Speaker 1: a biotech company, built into a multibillion dollar business, had 28 00:01:43,000 --> 00:01:45,720 Speaker 1: been a hedge fund partner before that. And you know, 29 00:01:45,760 --> 00:01:47,840 Speaker 1: I wasn't a political writer. I wasn't a political commentator. 30 00:01:47,880 --> 00:01:49,840 Speaker 1: I was someone who was lifting the veil on my 31 00:01:49,880 --> 00:01:52,960 Speaker 1: own experiences out of a sense of obligation. Right. I 32 00:01:53,040 --> 00:01:56,440 Speaker 1: had been educated in America's elite institutions, had built companies, 33 00:01:56,480 --> 00:01:59,560 Speaker 1: had built personal wealth as relatively young person. So I 34 00:01:59,560 --> 00:02:01,880 Speaker 1: think the part of the personal narrative around that is 35 00:02:01,920 --> 00:02:04,920 Speaker 1: what made the book interesting to others. For me, Actually, 36 00:02:04,960 --> 00:02:06,600 Speaker 1: the heart of the book, though, was in its thesis 37 00:02:06,800 --> 00:02:12,000 Speaker 1: that companies were cynically exploiting these progressive, one sided agendas 38 00:02:12,080 --> 00:02:15,080 Speaker 1: to aggregate power, sometimes to make an extra buck, but 39 00:02:15,160 --> 00:02:17,920 Speaker 1: at the expense of American democracy, And at the end 40 00:02:17,960 --> 00:02:20,120 Speaker 1: of the book, I have to admit I didn't fully 41 00:02:20,120 --> 00:02:21,760 Speaker 1: address the other side of this, which is that it 42 00:02:21,800 --> 00:02:24,920 Speaker 1: takes two to tango. Yeah, businesses can exploit a populace, 43 00:02:25,400 --> 00:02:26,840 Speaker 1: but at the end of the day, why is the 44 00:02:26,880 --> 00:02:29,480 Speaker 1: general populace buying into it? What is it about our 45 00:02:29,480 --> 00:02:32,320 Speaker 1: culture and our national psyche that causes us to fall 46 00:02:32,760 --> 00:02:36,040 Speaker 1: for this otherwise obvious trick they're playing. That's what this 47 00:02:36,080 --> 00:02:38,600 Speaker 1: new book is about, was the spread of that victimhood identity. 48 00:02:38,639 --> 00:02:40,200 Speaker 1: But in any case, I think of it as a 49 00:02:40,240 --> 00:02:42,959 Speaker 1: sequel to Woking and the second step of a journey 50 00:02:43,000 --> 00:02:45,600 Speaker 1: for me out of the world of biotech and into 51 00:02:45,600 --> 00:02:47,840 Speaker 1: the new world that I'm in now. Well, you know, 52 00:02:48,240 --> 00:02:51,239 Speaker 1: you talk about how you became conservative in the sixth 53 00:02:51,240 --> 00:02:54,079 Speaker 1: grade because of Jack Welch, who was then the CEO 54 00:02:54,120 --> 00:02:57,200 Speaker 1: of General Electric. Heman. Not many sixth graders are paying 55 00:02:57,200 --> 00:03:00,840 Speaker 1: attention to Jack Welch. What happened a bit of an oddity. 56 00:03:00,919 --> 00:03:03,840 Speaker 1: I mean, my dad was working at the GE plant 57 00:03:03,880 --> 00:03:07,079 Speaker 1: in Evandale, Ohio. My dad's one of the smartest people 58 00:03:07,120 --> 00:03:09,360 Speaker 1: I've ever met, probably always will be. But he wasn't 59 00:03:09,360 --> 00:03:12,919 Speaker 1: somebody who was particularly career ambitious, he enjoyed his job 60 00:03:12,919 --> 00:03:15,720 Speaker 1: as an engineer. He went in, did his part, did 61 00:03:15,800 --> 00:03:19,440 Speaker 1: his job, didn't complain, didn't gripe that somebody else got 62 00:03:19,480 --> 00:03:22,600 Speaker 1: the job because of their factors that were not as 63 00:03:22,639 --> 00:03:24,440 Speaker 1: good as his, and complain about it now. He just 64 00:03:24,480 --> 00:03:26,840 Speaker 1: went and put your head down work, do a great job. 65 00:03:26,840 --> 00:03:29,320 Speaker 1: The ideal employee for any business. At the same time, 66 00:03:29,400 --> 00:03:32,560 Speaker 1: Jack wels then took over GE apply his protocol to 67 00:03:32,600 --> 00:03:35,200 Speaker 1: be able to cut costs increased profitability to the firm. 68 00:03:35,320 --> 00:03:36,839 Speaker 1: My dad went into work one day and they said, 69 00:03:36,840 --> 00:03:39,080 Speaker 1: look to your left, look to your right. Everyone in 70 00:03:39,120 --> 00:03:41,120 Speaker 1: the room, one of you will be left standing by 71 00:03:41,160 --> 00:03:43,520 Speaker 1: the end of the layoffs. And for him, that was 72 00:03:43,800 --> 00:03:46,920 Speaker 1: his first generation immigrant. Did not come here with more 73 00:03:46,960 --> 00:03:49,240 Speaker 1: than ten dollars in his pocket. He had two kids. 74 00:03:49,720 --> 00:03:53,000 Speaker 1: This was a curveball that GE threw into his life. 75 00:03:53,000 --> 00:03:54,480 Speaker 1: And we knew that that came from on high on 76 00:03:54,560 --> 00:03:56,160 Speaker 1: Jack Welps. So my dad didn't know him. I didn't 77 00:03:56,160 --> 00:03:57,680 Speaker 1: know him, but he played a big role in our 78 00:03:57,680 --> 00:04:00,800 Speaker 1: family's life. So my dad decided to go to night school. 79 00:04:00,880 --> 00:04:03,680 Speaker 1: He went forty minutes each way to northern Kentucky to 80 00:04:03,800 --> 00:04:05,960 Speaker 1: take law classes because it turned out there was a 81 00:04:05,960 --> 00:04:09,080 Speaker 1: shortage at ge of patent attorneys. So he went spotted 82 00:04:09,080 --> 00:04:11,640 Speaker 1: that opportunity for himself and rolled in night school. Thought 83 00:04:11,640 --> 00:04:14,120 Speaker 1: this was going to bring greater job security, less risk 84 00:04:14,200 --> 00:04:16,520 Speaker 1: of putting food on the dinner table for the family. 85 00:04:16,920 --> 00:04:18,280 Speaker 1: And you know what, my mom had to watch my 86 00:04:18,320 --> 00:04:19,800 Speaker 1: little brothers. So he took me with him to the 87 00:04:19,839 --> 00:04:22,000 Speaker 1: law classes and so I would sit in the back 88 00:04:22,000 --> 00:04:24,440 Speaker 1: of the class and listen to him ask questions, and 89 00:04:24,440 --> 00:04:26,719 Speaker 1: then we'd drive back at ten thirty eleven o'clock at night, 90 00:04:26,800 --> 00:04:29,880 Speaker 1: back to Cincinnati from Kentucky. And you know, my DA's 91 00:04:29,880 --> 00:04:32,159 Speaker 1: pretty liberal, and so he would sound off on Anton 92 00:04:32,120 --> 00:04:35,280 Speaker 1: and Scalia and Clarence Thomas. And there's something about being 93 00:04:35,279 --> 00:04:37,000 Speaker 1: in sixth grade that makes you want to take the 94 00:04:37,040 --> 00:04:39,440 Speaker 1: other side of your dad. And in a certain way, 95 00:04:39,480 --> 00:04:42,520 Speaker 1: that's kind of how I backed into accidentally becoming the 96 00:04:42,600 --> 00:04:45,560 Speaker 1: conservative in the family, because I had to play counterpart 97 00:04:45,600 --> 00:04:47,560 Speaker 1: to my dad. And you know, it's funny, that's the 98 00:04:47,560 --> 00:04:49,279 Speaker 1: story of how Jack Wells turned me into a conservative. 99 00:04:49,279 --> 00:04:51,960 Speaker 1: I never met the guy, but that's how it happened. Well, 100 00:04:52,000 --> 00:04:53,480 Speaker 1: you know, I mean, some people could have looked at 101 00:04:53,480 --> 00:04:56,920 Speaker 1: that ruthlessness and said that makes me a socialist if 102 00:04:56,960 --> 00:04:59,880 Speaker 1: only government owned General Electric. He didn't begin with a 103 00:05:00,040 --> 00:05:03,080 Speaker 1: complicated relationship with capitalism for me, right, You know, GE 104 00:05:03,160 --> 00:05:05,560 Speaker 1: didn't actually do well in the years that followed Jack 105 00:05:05,680 --> 00:05:07,760 Speaker 1: Welch and I respect him as a business leader, but 106 00:05:07,800 --> 00:05:09,360 Speaker 1: if we're just going to describe some of the facts here, 107 00:05:09,400 --> 00:05:12,320 Speaker 1: he cashed out big. He made out nine figure maybe 108 00:05:12,320 --> 00:05:15,239 Speaker 1: more in personal wealth out of that, but he cashed 109 00:05:15,240 --> 00:05:17,200 Speaker 1: out at the top where GE was loaded with a 110 00:05:17,200 --> 00:05:19,480 Speaker 1: lot of debt, a lot of the businesses as had 111 00:05:19,480 --> 00:05:21,360 Speaker 1: had a lot of the innovative juice squeezed out of 112 00:05:21,400 --> 00:05:23,560 Speaker 1: them because of the cost cutting, and GE was on 113 00:05:23,600 --> 00:05:26,120 Speaker 1: a one way decline ever since the moment he left 114 00:05:26,200 --> 00:05:29,280 Speaker 1: my dad's You know, whatever amount they gave for pensioners 115 00:05:29,279 --> 00:05:31,720 Speaker 1: of stock in the company, I mean it was slash two, 116 00:05:31,760 --> 00:05:34,480 Speaker 1: a tiny fraction of what it was at the time 117 00:05:34,480 --> 00:05:36,159 Speaker 1: that my dad decided to go to law school because 118 00:05:36,160 --> 00:05:38,320 Speaker 1: of Jack Welt's laouts would supposedly I accounted for the 119 00:05:38,360 --> 00:05:40,440 Speaker 1: stock price increase. I'm not going to bear an illusion 120 00:05:40,440 --> 00:05:42,480 Speaker 1: about the fact that my relationship with capitalism and my 121 00:05:42,560 --> 00:05:44,400 Speaker 1: views of it were at least somewhat complicated, even in 122 00:05:44,440 --> 00:05:46,680 Speaker 1: my high school in college years. I then got my 123 00:05:46,720 --> 00:05:49,159 Speaker 1: first job after I graduated in two thousand and seven. 124 00:05:49,560 --> 00:05:51,040 Speaker 1: In the fall of two thousand and seven, had a 125 00:05:51,040 --> 00:05:53,240 Speaker 1: hedge fund in New York City on the eve of 126 00:05:53,279 --> 00:05:55,080 Speaker 1: the O eight financial crisis. And I will tell you 127 00:05:55,120 --> 00:05:56,880 Speaker 1: that having been through that one two three punch, it 128 00:05:56,880 --> 00:06:00,800 Speaker 1: would leave someone possibly quite disillusioned with capital. But for me, 129 00:06:00,800 --> 00:06:03,280 Speaker 1: it actually had the opposite effect, And especially the two 130 00:06:03,320 --> 00:06:05,599 Speaker 1: thousand and eight piece of this, for me was a 131 00:06:05,640 --> 00:06:07,600 Speaker 1: wake up call to the fact that what we saw 132 00:06:07,720 --> 00:06:10,880 Speaker 1: play out in the aftermath of that crisis that was 133 00:06:10,960 --> 00:06:16,359 Speaker 1: not capitalism. That was some distortion of state force combined 134 00:06:16,400 --> 00:06:19,200 Speaker 1: with capitalism to create a new form of corporatism. I 135 00:06:19,200 --> 00:06:20,800 Speaker 1: don't know where you were on this new I mean 136 00:06:20,839 --> 00:06:23,160 Speaker 1: I was at the time and remain a staunch opponent 137 00:06:23,400 --> 00:06:25,960 Speaker 1: to the government bailouts under a Republican administration at the time. 138 00:06:26,000 --> 00:06:29,240 Speaker 1: By the way, that saved the banks when times went bad. 139 00:06:29,279 --> 00:06:31,120 Speaker 1: But when times went good, the bankers made a lot 140 00:06:31,160 --> 00:06:33,279 Speaker 1: of money where everyone else was making ordinary salary. But 141 00:06:33,320 --> 00:06:35,839 Speaker 1: when times bad, you know, the rest of the country 142 00:06:35,839 --> 00:06:37,679 Speaker 1: had to bail out the bankers at the public fisk. 143 00:06:38,080 --> 00:06:39,800 Speaker 1: That was when I really woke up. It was the 144 00:06:39,839 --> 00:06:41,880 Speaker 1: first start of the journey that I've since been on 145 00:06:41,920 --> 00:06:44,279 Speaker 1: to say that you know what, that's not capitalism. That 146 00:06:44,440 --> 00:06:46,719 Speaker 1: is a new form of chrony capitalism. And what we 147 00:06:46,800 --> 00:06:49,000 Speaker 1: might want to revive is the true system of free 148 00:06:49,040 --> 00:06:51,760 Speaker 1: market capitalism that allows people to win and lose based 149 00:06:51,760 --> 00:06:54,440 Speaker 1: on their successes and achievements, rather than government picking favorites. 150 00:06:54,720 --> 00:06:57,440 Speaker 1: It's really a form of corporate welfare. I mean, you 151 00:06:57,560 --> 00:07:00,640 Speaker 1: had the secondly, treasury came from Goldman Sachs. House chief 152 00:07:00,640 --> 00:07:03,400 Speaker 1: of staff came from Goldman Sachs. Goldman Sachs was in 153 00:07:03,440 --> 00:07:07,560 Speaker 1: the meetings with the Federal Reserve in New York. I mean, 154 00:07:07,640 --> 00:07:09,720 Speaker 1: the challenge of them part is that both parties had 155 00:07:09,760 --> 00:07:11,840 Speaker 1: too much corruption, the same thing that happened with nine 156 00:07:11,880 --> 00:07:15,440 Speaker 1: to eleven. Both parties were too guilty to actually publicly 157 00:07:15,440 --> 00:07:17,840 Speaker 1: get to the bottom because each head of deal, I'll 158 00:07:17,840 --> 00:07:20,680 Speaker 1: protect you, you protect me. That's exactly, and that was 159 00:07:20,680 --> 00:07:23,040 Speaker 1: the thesis at the heart of Woking. You mentioned Goldman Sachs. 160 00:07:23,320 --> 00:07:25,360 Speaker 1: The first chapter of my last book was called the 161 00:07:25,400 --> 00:07:28,480 Speaker 1: Goldman Rule, which refers to not the Golden rule that 162 00:07:28,520 --> 00:07:30,480 Speaker 1: you and I know, but the Goldman rule, as I 163 00:07:30,520 --> 00:07:32,559 Speaker 1: called it, that he who has the gold makes the Rules. 164 00:07:32,960 --> 00:07:34,840 Speaker 1: In two thousand and eight, it was Goldman Sachs. Today 165 00:07:34,840 --> 00:07:38,040 Speaker 1: it's black Rock, but it's the same story in new clothing. 166 00:07:38,440 --> 00:07:40,280 Speaker 1: I think that calling it out is half the battle. 167 00:07:40,560 --> 00:07:42,360 Speaker 1: After I did write wok Ink and rolled it out, 168 00:07:42,360 --> 00:07:44,040 Speaker 1: I did start a new business. You know, you may 169 00:07:44,040 --> 00:07:46,240 Speaker 1: be familiar with this as well, Strive that's competing with 170 00:07:46,280 --> 00:07:48,400 Speaker 1: Black Rock. So I don't want to just be writing books. 171 00:07:48,480 --> 00:07:50,520 Speaker 1: I want to be solving this through the market. But 172 00:07:50,640 --> 00:07:53,880 Speaker 1: writing the books is important too because it also reveals 173 00:07:53,960 --> 00:07:57,320 Speaker 1: the why, the philosophical worldview for why I'm doing what 174 00:07:57,360 --> 00:07:58,640 Speaker 1: I'm doing. And then that's what led me to this 175 00:07:58,680 --> 00:08:00,640 Speaker 1: new book with Nation of Victims and the Path back 176 00:08:00,680 --> 00:08:04,200 Speaker 1: to excellence. I'm curious, because you're so obviously bright and driven. 177 00:08:04,800 --> 00:08:08,640 Speaker 1: How do you divide your time between your market free 178 00:08:08,720 --> 00:08:13,320 Speaker 1: enterprise activities and your intellectual book writing activities. Yeah, it varies, 179 00:08:13,320 --> 00:08:15,440 Speaker 1: so I have a lot of trouble new to have 180 00:08:15,520 --> 00:08:18,720 Speaker 1: to admit switching the channel quickly between the two. It 181 00:08:18,760 --> 00:08:20,960 Speaker 1: doesn't work for me when I'm in day to day 182 00:08:21,080 --> 00:08:24,080 Speaker 1: business building mode to have the kinds of ideas to 183 00:08:24,120 --> 00:08:26,240 Speaker 1: write a book like Nation of Victims that I did. 184 00:08:26,520 --> 00:08:29,200 Speaker 1: So the text for this book was mostly submitted around 185 00:08:29,600 --> 00:08:32,560 Speaker 1: January February of this year, subject to some tweaks. You 186 00:08:32,600 --> 00:08:34,400 Speaker 1: know how this works from writing your own books too. 187 00:08:34,400 --> 00:08:36,400 Speaker 1: It takes a long time to publish. Turned out, it 188 00:08:36,440 --> 00:08:39,240 Speaker 1: was around January February that I got my new business 189 00:08:39,240 --> 00:08:41,640 Speaker 1: off the ground, Strive, and so I've probably been working 190 00:08:41,640 --> 00:08:43,800 Speaker 1: about one hundred and twenty hour weeks ever since then. 191 00:08:44,160 --> 00:08:47,000 Speaker 1: The first break that I took from that was this week, 192 00:08:47,040 --> 00:08:49,559 Speaker 1: and that break constituted doing a book tour for this book. 193 00:08:49,880 --> 00:08:52,120 Speaker 1: But that's what my break from the business looked like. 194 00:08:52,280 --> 00:08:55,160 Speaker 1: But right now I'm definitely in a phase of between 195 00:08:55,200 --> 00:08:57,480 Speaker 1: one hundred and hundred twenty hours a week, hunkered down 196 00:08:57,520 --> 00:09:00,160 Speaker 1: building the team here in Columbus, Ohio around the clock, 197 00:09:00,200 --> 00:09:01,920 Speaker 1: getting Strive off the ground. But I did take a 198 00:09:01,920 --> 00:09:04,280 Speaker 1: little vacation to launch this book this week. I always 199 00:09:04,280 --> 00:09:07,760 Speaker 1: tell young people you are guaranteed by your creator the 200 00:09:07,840 --> 00:09:11,680 Speaker 1: right to pursue happiness, which is an active verb, and 201 00:09:11,840 --> 00:09:13,719 Speaker 1: you can have the biggest dream you want, but just 202 00:09:13,800 --> 00:09:16,840 Speaker 1: remember the big dream takes a lot of work to 203 00:09:16,960 --> 00:09:20,479 Speaker 1: become a big reality. And everybody I know who's successful 204 00:09:20,559 --> 00:09:23,360 Speaker 1: works hard. I don't know anybody's successful. It doesn't work hard. 205 00:09:23,600 --> 00:09:25,360 Speaker 1: You know, it might work that way in other countries, 206 00:09:25,440 --> 00:09:29,240 Speaker 1: where success is bestowed upon you through intergenerational means. That 207 00:09:29,320 --> 00:09:31,600 Speaker 1: was the old world European way. In some ways, it's 208 00:09:31,640 --> 00:09:33,920 Speaker 1: the modern Chinese way, right. China doesn't have the great 209 00:09:33,920 --> 00:09:36,520 Speaker 1: tradition of philanthropy, doesn't have the great tradition of the 210 00:09:36,559 --> 00:09:38,440 Speaker 1: self made man that you see in the United States. 211 00:09:38,600 --> 00:09:40,599 Speaker 1: But at least in the American way, the way the 212 00:09:40,640 --> 00:09:44,040 Speaker 1: American dream works is you can pretty much achieve anything 213 00:09:44,080 --> 00:09:46,960 Speaker 1: you ever want with your own hard work, your own commitment, 214 00:09:47,320 --> 00:09:50,400 Speaker 1: your own dedication. That is the American dream. I think 215 00:09:50,400 --> 00:09:52,920 Speaker 1: we have forgotten that dream. As I sometimes say, when 216 00:09:52,920 --> 00:09:55,200 Speaker 1: you wake up from a dream, you remember what it 217 00:09:55,240 --> 00:09:57,160 Speaker 1: felt like, but you forget what it was all about. 218 00:09:57,600 --> 00:09:59,400 Speaker 1: I feel like we're in a phase in our national 219 00:09:59,440 --> 00:10:02,120 Speaker 1: history where you can still remember what that dream felt like, 220 00:10:02,200 --> 00:10:04,440 Speaker 1: but you forgot what the dream actually was. And if 221 00:10:04,480 --> 00:10:07,080 Speaker 1: I have one goal above all else, you know, I'm 222 00:10:07,080 --> 00:10:09,840 Speaker 1: gonna have to tell you it is reviving that dream 223 00:10:10,080 --> 00:10:12,760 Speaker 1: for the next generation of Americans. Part of that is 224 00:10:12,760 --> 00:10:14,160 Speaker 1: by living it. You know, I didn't think I was 225 00:10:14,160 --> 00:10:15,880 Speaker 1: going to start another business. I thought I was done 226 00:10:15,880 --> 00:10:18,360 Speaker 1: after I had built my biotech business. I thought I 227 00:10:18,400 --> 00:10:20,560 Speaker 1: was moving on to writing books, but at the end 228 00:10:20,600 --> 00:10:22,280 Speaker 1: of the day, I said, look, we can shine a 229 00:10:22,280 --> 00:10:24,560 Speaker 1: spotlight on the problem and complain about it all we want, 230 00:10:24,880 --> 00:10:27,120 Speaker 1: we also have to lead by example, and for me, 231 00:10:27,360 --> 00:10:29,360 Speaker 1: much more appealing than politics was to do this through 232 00:10:29,400 --> 00:10:31,840 Speaker 1: the private sector, where you're actually in charge and able 233 00:10:31,840 --> 00:10:34,240 Speaker 1: to bring competition to the market. So you know, that's 234 00:10:34,240 --> 00:10:36,320 Speaker 1: what led me to this second career phase of mine, 235 00:10:36,360 --> 00:10:37,920 Speaker 1: where I guess I'm back at it in the business 236 00:10:37,920 --> 00:10:41,960 Speaker 1: world again. So tell us intellectually, how did you migrate 237 00:10:42,480 --> 00:10:46,040 Speaker 1: from woke to nation of victims? What was the thought process? 238 00:10:46,400 --> 00:10:49,000 Speaker 1: I had some incomplete work at the end of Woke Ink, right, 239 00:10:49,000 --> 00:10:51,960 Speaker 1: Wokink was all about spotting the problem. The final chapter 240 00:10:52,000 --> 00:10:54,920 Speaker 1: of wokin was a chapter titled who Are We? That 241 00:10:55,040 --> 00:10:57,920 Speaker 1: was the name of the chapter, and the thesis of 242 00:10:57,960 --> 00:11:01,640 Speaker 1: that chapter was that actually the real diagnosis for all 243 00:11:01,679 --> 00:11:05,559 Speaker 1: of the woke epidemic was a black hole of identity 244 00:11:05,800 --> 00:11:08,240 Speaker 1: at the heart of the American soul, where I'm part 245 00:11:08,240 --> 00:11:10,520 Speaker 1: of a generation of millennials. People younger than me are 246 00:11:10,559 --> 00:11:13,280 Speaker 1: part of a generation of gen Z that is hungry 247 00:11:13,320 --> 00:11:16,880 Speaker 1: for a cause, hungry for purpose and meaning, and identity. 248 00:11:17,440 --> 00:11:19,640 Speaker 1: Yet in a moment in our history where the kinds 249 00:11:19,679 --> 00:11:22,000 Speaker 1: of things that used to fill that hunger for purpose, 250 00:11:22,440 --> 00:11:26,280 Speaker 1: things like faith or patriotism or hard work for that matter, 251 00:11:26,520 --> 00:11:29,280 Speaker 1: or family, whatever it might have been, those concepts have 252 00:11:29,400 --> 00:11:32,600 Speaker 1: receded in American life. And that's what leaves this black 253 00:11:32,640 --> 00:11:36,400 Speaker 1: hole of a vacuum that allows wokesm or scientism or 254 00:11:36,440 --> 00:11:38,720 Speaker 1: climate religion or whatever it may be, to fill that 255 00:11:39,240 --> 00:11:42,520 Speaker 1: hunger for purpose and meaning. Well, that was a diagnosis, 256 00:11:42,520 --> 00:11:45,360 Speaker 1: but the solution I didn't really get to in Woking. 257 00:11:45,520 --> 00:11:47,960 Speaker 1: And I think the solution to me was how do 258 00:11:48,000 --> 00:11:50,840 Speaker 1: you then fill that void with something more rich and 259 00:11:50,960 --> 00:11:54,800 Speaker 1: more meaningful that dilutes the poison to irrelevance. And in 260 00:11:54,800 --> 00:11:56,200 Speaker 1: a certain way, I have to say that it was 261 00:11:56,200 --> 00:11:57,959 Speaker 1: a look in the mirror where I was looking in 262 00:11:58,040 --> 00:11:59,560 Speaker 1: the mirror and I was doing a great job Cable 263 00:11:59,559 --> 00:12:01,280 Speaker 1: television have me on every other night and you know, 264 00:12:01,360 --> 00:12:04,120 Speaker 1: pointing out some hypocrisy or other on the other side. 265 00:12:04,160 --> 00:12:05,520 Speaker 1: But if I look in the mirror and ask myself, 266 00:12:05,520 --> 00:12:07,480 Speaker 1: how much am I actually moving the ball forward for 267 00:12:07,480 --> 00:12:11,800 Speaker 1: the American revival? Just by intellectualizing easy hypocrisies I could 268 00:12:11,800 --> 00:12:14,160 Speaker 1: point out on the other side. That's easy to do. 269 00:12:14,200 --> 00:12:18,040 Speaker 1: The hard part is actually offering an affirmative vision for 270 00:12:18,240 --> 00:12:20,840 Speaker 1: what it means to fill that vacuum of American identity. 271 00:12:21,120 --> 00:12:22,280 Speaker 1: That's what I wanted to do, and that you're not 272 00:12:22,320 --> 00:12:24,239 Speaker 1: going to do that in a five minute hit on television. 273 00:12:24,600 --> 00:12:26,439 Speaker 1: I had a best shot about doing it in a book. 274 00:12:26,840 --> 00:12:28,920 Speaker 1: That's what this new book is about. The way I 275 00:12:29,000 --> 00:12:31,880 Speaker 1: described the fact that victimhood has become the new American 276 00:12:31,960 --> 00:12:35,360 Speaker 1: national identity, but we can fill that void of national 277 00:12:35,400 --> 00:12:40,480 Speaker 1: identity with a new one, the shared unapologetic pursuit of excellence, 278 00:12:40,520 --> 00:12:42,760 Speaker 1: and the unapologetic piece of this new is pretty important. 279 00:12:42,840 --> 00:12:44,960 Speaker 1: It's not just the pursuit of excellence. It is the 280 00:12:44,960 --> 00:12:47,680 Speaker 1: pursuit of excellence without having to apologize for it, because 281 00:12:47,720 --> 00:12:50,520 Speaker 1: it is that apologist culture that I think infects the 282 00:12:50,520 --> 00:12:52,880 Speaker 1: heart of the American soul and has caused us to 283 00:12:52,920 --> 00:12:56,320 Speaker 1: abandon this idea that we call American exceptionalism. If you 284 00:12:56,360 --> 00:12:59,280 Speaker 1: could have written a book on becoming a nation of 285 00:12:59,280 --> 00:13:02,920 Speaker 1: winners again, that's effectively witness is. Actually the second half 286 00:13:02,920 --> 00:13:04,840 Speaker 1: of this book is that I think that it's important 287 00:13:04,840 --> 00:13:06,840 Speaker 1: before you offer a solution, to see the problem with 288 00:13:06,920 --> 00:13:09,000 Speaker 1: clear eyes. So What I do is I first lay 289 00:13:09,000 --> 00:13:12,000 Speaker 1: out the victimhood cancer across America. That's the first third 290 00:13:12,080 --> 00:13:14,199 Speaker 1: to the first half of the book. What I then 291 00:13:14,240 --> 00:13:16,080 Speaker 1: do is, though I take a step back and say, 292 00:13:16,120 --> 00:13:19,080 Speaker 1: let's take and you'll like this given your academic background. 293 00:13:19,240 --> 00:13:21,640 Speaker 1: We take a tour through history dating back to post 294 00:13:21,640 --> 00:13:24,280 Speaker 1: Civil War Reconstruction era history in the United States, when 295 00:13:24,320 --> 00:13:26,600 Speaker 1: a lot of these victimhood narratives began in the back 296 00:13:26,640 --> 00:13:29,680 Speaker 1: of jurisprudence that caused people to see themselves as victims, 297 00:13:29,880 --> 00:13:31,800 Speaker 1: starting in the reconstruction era on the back of fourteen 298 00:13:31,800 --> 00:13:35,319 Speaker 1: Amendment jurisprudence substantive due process. We go through all of that, 299 00:13:35,679 --> 00:13:37,840 Speaker 1: but I even go further back. I go to Roman history. 300 00:13:38,400 --> 00:13:40,640 Speaker 1: I hadn't remembered this since I studied Latin for the 301 00:13:40,679 --> 00:13:42,760 Speaker 1: first time in junior high school. I could hear my 302 00:13:42,840 --> 00:13:45,480 Speaker 1: Latin teacher from eighth grade. In my ear, there was 303 00:13:45,600 --> 00:13:48,679 Speaker 1: no one rise or one fall of Rome. There were 304 00:13:48,720 --> 00:13:51,840 Speaker 1: many rises and many falls. And to those who try 305 00:13:51,880 --> 00:13:54,040 Speaker 1: to make the lazy analogy to say the fall of 306 00:13:54,080 --> 00:13:56,160 Speaker 1: the American experiment is like the fall of Rome, maybe 307 00:13:56,160 --> 00:13:58,360 Speaker 1: you'd actually be well served to study the actual history. 308 00:13:58,720 --> 00:14:00,160 Speaker 1: And what I say is we're not quite done with 309 00:14:00,160 --> 00:14:03,000 Speaker 1: this American experiment yet. We might be at a nader here. 310 00:14:03,040 --> 00:14:04,920 Speaker 1: But just like there were many rises in many falls, 311 00:14:05,320 --> 00:14:08,679 Speaker 1: it depends on actually what we do in those moments. 312 00:14:08,720 --> 00:14:10,760 Speaker 1: And so one of the things I loved about going 313 00:14:10,800 --> 00:14:14,840 Speaker 1: back to history is it takes the controversy, the partisan controversy, 314 00:14:14,840 --> 00:14:18,200 Speaker 1: out of the proximal present. And I tell the story 315 00:14:18,240 --> 00:14:20,960 Speaker 1: of emperor known as Septimius Severus, for example, one of 316 00:14:20,960 --> 00:14:23,560 Speaker 1: many stories I tell. He was known to me when 317 00:14:23,600 --> 00:14:27,000 Speaker 1: I first studied him in high school as the Black Emperor. 318 00:14:27,480 --> 00:14:29,360 Speaker 1: One of the things I had discovered when doing research 319 00:14:29,360 --> 00:14:31,760 Speaker 1: for this book is it wasn't until the last few 320 00:14:31,800 --> 00:14:34,840 Speaker 1: decades that he was actually named the black Emperor. It's 321 00:14:34,840 --> 00:14:37,720 Speaker 1: true that he had dark skin, but to the Romans, 322 00:14:37,760 --> 00:14:39,960 Speaker 1: that was like having dark eyes or having dark hair. 323 00:14:40,160 --> 00:14:43,120 Speaker 1: It was just another visual feature of a person. What 324 00:14:43,240 --> 00:14:45,280 Speaker 1: the Romans cared about wasn't whether you were a member 325 00:14:45,320 --> 00:14:47,080 Speaker 1: of a particular race. They didn't even see it in 326 00:14:47,120 --> 00:14:49,400 Speaker 1: that term. They cared about whether you were a citizen 327 00:14:49,480 --> 00:14:51,480 Speaker 1: of a nation. And I think that that was a 328 00:14:51,520 --> 00:14:53,880 Speaker 1: telling attribute for how the Romans were able to use 329 00:14:54,120 --> 00:14:56,840 Speaker 1: the concept of the nation as something that got them 330 00:14:56,840 --> 00:15:00,560 Speaker 1: through their toughest times, rather than resorting to fractious, genetically 331 00:15:00,600 --> 00:15:04,480 Speaker 1: defined differences. And the funny thing about it is he 332 00:15:04,480 --> 00:15:07,000 Speaker 1: only became the Black Emperor when a TV series in 333 00:15:07,040 --> 00:15:10,160 Speaker 1: the last twenty years you had this tagline for this 334 00:15:10,280 --> 00:15:12,880 Speaker 1: great television special they wanted to promote where they said 335 00:15:13,080 --> 00:15:16,480 Speaker 1: the first black man to walk the shores of England 336 00:15:16,720 --> 00:15:19,160 Speaker 1: came not as a slave but as a conqueror. With 337 00:15:19,240 --> 00:15:22,560 Speaker 1: some inspiring music in the background. In some sense, he 338 00:15:22,640 --> 00:15:25,080 Speaker 1: was the black Emperor we needed in our time of 339 00:15:25,280 --> 00:15:29,160 Speaker 1: being obsessed with identity politics, rather than recognizing actually he 340 00:15:29,200 --> 00:15:31,080 Speaker 1: happened to have been one of the most brutal conquerors 341 00:15:31,240 --> 00:15:33,960 Speaker 1: in Roman history, including of African slaves, a part that 342 00:15:33,960 --> 00:15:36,880 Speaker 1: they didn't tell you. But the funny thing is that 343 00:15:36,960 --> 00:15:38,800 Speaker 1: the positive message we would have taken away from it 344 00:15:38,800 --> 00:15:41,280 Speaker 1: is the didn't care how we looked. He was a Roman. 345 00:15:41,680 --> 00:15:43,160 Speaker 1: And one of the things I asked in this book 346 00:15:43,240 --> 00:15:45,480 Speaker 1: is when did Rome fall? Was it at the end 347 00:15:45,480 --> 00:15:48,000 Speaker 1: of the Western Roman Empire? Did it live on for 348 00:15:48,000 --> 00:15:51,800 Speaker 1: another thousand years continuing with the Eastern Roman Empire. Maybe 349 00:15:51,880 --> 00:15:54,680 Speaker 1: Rome was reincarnated in seventeen seventy six. You know, Nations 350 00:15:54,720 --> 00:15:57,360 Speaker 1: don't die the way human beings do. They have a 351 00:15:57,400 --> 00:16:01,120 Speaker 1: chance to be constantly reborn as something else, especially nations 352 00:16:01,200 --> 00:16:03,760 Speaker 1: like Rome and nations like America that are built on 353 00:16:03,840 --> 00:16:07,240 Speaker 1: ideas rather than on arbitrary geographic boundaries. And so when 354 00:16:07,240 --> 00:16:09,240 Speaker 1: you go through history, then you come back in the 355 00:16:09,240 --> 00:16:11,160 Speaker 1: second half of the book about this path to excellence, 356 00:16:11,160 --> 00:16:13,480 Speaker 1: the path back to winning. You know, it doesn't land 357 00:16:13,520 --> 00:16:15,920 Speaker 1: on deaf ears, but hopefully I use the history in 358 00:16:15,960 --> 00:16:17,920 Speaker 1: the middle of the book to open up some hearts 359 00:16:17,920 --> 00:16:19,440 Speaker 1: and minds, which is what I was at least trying 360 00:16:19,440 --> 00:16:21,440 Speaker 1: to do with this. I have to take you to 361 00:16:21,480 --> 00:16:24,760 Speaker 1: one prick because I've written three novels built around the 362 00:16:24,760 --> 00:16:29,640 Speaker 1: Gettisburg campaign, and you use Gettisburg as a turning point 363 00:16:29,680 --> 00:16:32,240 Speaker 1: in a fascinating kind of way that I think's worth 364 00:16:32,240 --> 00:16:34,960 Speaker 1: taking a minute for you to sort of share how 365 00:16:35,040 --> 00:16:38,920 Speaker 1: you see Gettisburg as being in a way a launching 366 00:16:38,960 --> 00:16:42,120 Speaker 1: point for victimhood. It's an interesting story, and we probably 367 00:16:42,160 --> 00:16:44,200 Speaker 1: won't even do it justice here in a conversation. I'd 368 00:16:44,200 --> 00:16:46,000 Speaker 1: really encourage everyone to take a look at my take 369 00:16:46,040 --> 00:16:47,880 Speaker 1: on it in the book. It competing historians can have 370 00:16:47,920 --> 00:16:50,360 Speaker 1: competing views of this, but I tell the story of 371 00:16:50,560 --> 00:16:53,880 Speaker 1: a general known as General Longstreet. And you know, people 372 00:16:53,920 --> 00:16:56,880 Speaker 1: remember Stonewall Jackson in the South as a hero, Robert E. 373 00:16:56,960 --> 00:16:59,200 Speaker 1: Lee as a hero. Well, this was actually the guy 374 00:16:59,240 --> 00:17:02,120 Speaker 1: who won most of the battles in the Civil War 375 00:17:02,640 --> 00:17:06,600 Speaker 1: for General Lee through a tactical offense, through defense. He 376 00:17:06,640 --> 00:17:10,240 Speaker 1: was patient, He wasn't as flashy as Stonewall Jackson, he 377 00:17:10,280 --> 00:17:12,639 Speaker 1: wasn't as much about building his own name up. But 378 00:17:12,720 --> 00:17:14,600 Speaker 1: at the end of the day, he was the one 379 00:17:14,640 --> 00:17:18,399 Speaker 1: who actually encouraged Lee. He begged him to a fault, 380 00:17:18,440 --> 00:17:22,200 Speaker 1: to exercise discretion at Gettysburg, to not fall prey to 381 00:17:22,240 --> 00:17:26,000 Speaker 1: the hubris of making that push. Lee overruled him. Lee 382 00:17:26,040 --> 00:17:28,520 Speaker 1: recognized he was wrong, and in fact he was riding 383 00:17:28,560 --> 00:17:30,399 Speaker 1: his horse as his men were being shot, saying this 384 00:17:30,440 --> 00:17:32,679 Speaker 1: was my fault, and this was my fault. But actually, 385 00:17:32,680 --> 00:17:35,400 Speaker 1: as the story got told, in some ways, history isn't 386 00:17:35,400 --> 00:17:37,840 Speaker 1: just written by its winners. History is often written by 387 00:17:37,840 --> 00:17:40,160 Speaker 1: its losers. And at the end of the day, Lee 388 00:17:40,240 --> 00:17:43,800 Speaker 1: and Jackson were Southern Confederate heroes, while Longstreet, the guy 389 00:17:43,840 --> 00:17:46,359 Speaker 1: whose advice might have actually led them to be more successful, 390 00:17:46,680 --> 00:17:49,600 Speaker 1: you know, effectively was bearing the cross as the guy 391 00:17:49,600 --> 00:17:52,000 Speaker 1: who bore the responsibility as the victim of that story, 392 00:17:52,520 --> 00:17:54,320 Speaker 1: and later on he was actually great friends with Grant. 393 00:17:54,359 --> 00:17:55,560 Speaker 1: This is one of the things I didn't know until 394 00:17:55,560 --> 00:17:57,960 Speaker 1: refreshing my history for writing this book. I mean, these 395 00:17:57,960 --> 00:17:59,800 Speaker 1: guys were friends. I mean even at the point where 396 00:17:59,840 --> 00:18:02,480 Speaker 1: they were negotiating the terms of surrender, they were playing 397 00:18:02,480 --> 00:18:04,720 Speaker 1: cards with each other. You know. Grant actually made a 398 00:18:04,720 --> 00:18:07,840 Speaker 1: case for long Street to be pardoned. It's a beautiful 399 00:18:07,840 --> 00:18:09,920 Speaker 1: story where you think about these generals on either side, 400 00:18:09,920 --> 00:18:12,520 Speaker 1: the iconic generals as enemies. Actually they were each just 401 00:18:12,680 --> 00:18:15,879 Speaker 1: doing their job for their respective sides who they saw 402 00:18:16,200 --> 00:18:18,600 Speaker 1: their national loyalty too. But at the end of the day, 403 00:18:18,600 --> 00:18:20,439 Speaker 1: there were human beings that still had deep respect for 404 00:18:20,480 --> 00:18:22,760 Speaker 1: one another. But it turned out that long Street actually 405 00:18:22,800 --> 00:18:24,760 Speaker 1: he ended up being, in the post Civil War era, 406 00:18:25,080 --> 00:18:27,840 Speaker 1: one of the people who actually quelled a rebellion by 407 00:18:27,880 --> 00:18:31,240 Speaker 1: a number of KKK predecessors in Louisiana, and he became 408 00:18:31,320 --> 00:18:34,320 Speaker 1: very unpopular in the South as a consequence, where in 409 00:18:34,359 --> 00:18:37,640 Speaker 1: some ways we create the villains through history that we need. 410 00:18:37,680 --> 00:18:39,920 Speaker 1: We tell ourselves the story we need about the Black Emperor, 411 00:18:39,920 --> 00:18:42,000 Speaker 1: even though that wasn't the story at the time. The 412 00:18:42,040 --> 00:18:44,600 Speaker 1: South then for half a century told itself the stories 413 00:18:44,600 --> 00:18:47,280 Speaker 1: about how they lost the Civil War because of James Longstreet, 414 00:18:47,280 --> 00:18:49,159 Speaker 1: when in fact he might have been their hero, the 415 00:18:49,200 --> 00:18:52,119 Speaker 1: hero that they actually needed, instead creating the villain that 416 00:18:52,160 --> 00:18:54,240 Speaker 1: they needed instead. And in the wake of this, and 417 00:18:54,320 --> 00:18:56,280 Speaker 1: it's a longer story to how this kind of gave 418 00:18:56,359 --> 00:18:58,960 Speaker 1: rise to the start of American victimhood narratives. I think 419 00:18:58,960 --> 00:19:00,920 Speaker 1: I talked about the Lost Cause narrative in the South 420 00:19:01,040 --> 00:19:04,160 Speaker 1: in some ways is the first true modern American victimhood narrative, 421 00:19:04,160 --> 00:19:06,119 Speaker 1: of the victimhood narrative of the post Civil War South, 422 00:19:06,440 --> 00:19:09,200 Speaker 1: But how that then gave rise to new Black victimhood 423 00:19:09,240 --> 00:19:12,560 Speaker 1: narratives in response, which then created new victimhood narratives that 424 00:19:12,600 --> 00:19:15,000 Speaker 1: then created a cascade getting us to a yard today. 425 00:19:15,520 --> 00:19:17,520 Speaker 1: So I love going through the history though, because in 426 00:19:17,560 --> 00:19:20,600 Speaker 1: a certain sense, that gets us past the conservative liberal 427 00:19:20,640 --> 00:19:23,240 Speaker 1: boundaries through which we're committed to viewing every issue today, 428 00:19:23,600 --> 00:19:26,600 Speaker 1: to sort of take a more holistic American perspective. This 429 00:19:26,640 --> 00:19:28,160 Speaker 1: is a book is made for people who enjoy history 430 00:19:28,280 --> 00:19:30,359 Speaker 1: much more than Woking COIs. Let's just say that. But 431 00:19:30,440 --> 00:19:32,120 Speaker 1: if that fits you, then I hope it's a book 432 00:19:32,119 --> 00:19:44,359 Speaker 1: that you'll enjoy and learn something from Hi. This is 433 00:19:44,440 --> 00:19:47,200 Speaker 1: newt We have serious decisions to make about the future 434 00:19:47,240 --> 00:19:51,200 Speaker 1: of our country. Americans must confront big government socialism, which 435 00:19:51,200 --> 00:19:55,600 Speaker 1: has taken over the modern Democratic Party, big business, news, media, entertainment, 436 00:19:55,600 --> 00:19:59,879 Speaker 1: and academia. My new best selling book, Defeating Big Government 437 00:20:00,080 --> 00:20:04,960 Speaker 1: Socialism Saving America's Future, offers strategies and insights for everyday 438 00:20:05,040 --> 00:20:08,760 Speaker 1: citizens to save America's future and ensure it remains the 439 00:20:08,760 --> 00:20:11,679 Speaker 1: greatest nation on Earth. Here's a special offer for my 440 00:20:11,760 --> 00:20:15,199 Speaker 1: podcast listeners. You can order an autograph copy of my 441 00:20:15,240 --> 00:20:19,560 Speaker 1: new book, Defeating Big Government Socialism right now at gingwishtree 442 00:20:19,640 --> 00:20:22,600 Speaker 1: sixty dot com slash book and we'll ship it directly 443 00:20:22,600 --> 00:20:25,480 Speaker 1: to you. Don't miss out on this special offer. It's 444 00:20:25,520 --> 00:20:28,960 Speaker 1: only available for a limited time. Go to gingwishtree sixty 445 00:20:28,960 --> 00:20:32,400 Speaker 1: dot com slash book to order your copy now. Order 446 00:20:32,400 --> 00:20:41,639 Speaker 1: it today at gingwishtree sixty dot com slash book. I mean, 447 00:20:41,680 --> 00:20:43,679 Speaker 1: one of the fascinating points you make that I had 448 00:20:43,760 --> 00:20:46,080 Speaker 1: not thought about the way you wrote it is that 449 00:20:46,160 --> 00:20:50,399 Speaker 1: the fourteenth Amendments do process clause open up sort of 450 00:20:50,400 --> 00:20:55,200 Speaker 1: a whole bag of worms that we're still trapped in exactly. So, Yeah, 451 00:20:55,200 --> 00:20:57,480 Speaker 1: this is an interesting and untold story. I don't believe 452 00:20:57,520 --> 00:21:01,040 Speaker 1: any other legal historian has covered this ground. But you know, 453 00:21:01,119 --> 00:21:04,320 Speaker 1: there was the Privileges in Immunities clause in the fourteenth Amendment, 454 00:21:04,359 --> 00:21:05,720 Speaker 1: and this is what I thought the writers of the 455 00:21:05,720 --> 00:21:08,159 Speaker 1: Fourteenth Amendment actually intended to be the most important of 456 00:21:08,200 --> 00:21:10,080 Speaker 1: the clauses. Is the reason he put it first, what 457 00:21:10,160 --> 00:21:13,600 Speaker 1: are the privileges and immunities of citizenship? And I think 458 00:21:13,640 --> 00:21:16,000 Speaker 1: that is the question we have yet to answer. We 459 00:21:16,080 --> 00:21:18,320 Speaker 1: need to answer today. What does it mean to be 460 00:21:18,440 --> 00:21:21,280 Speaker 1: a citizen of this country? What are the privileges, what 461 00:21:21,320 --> 00:21:25,880 Speaker 1: are the immunities, and what are the duties associated with citizenship? Unfortunately, 462 00:21:25,880 --> 00:21:27,760 Speaker 1: we never had a chance to answer that question because 463 00:21:27,800 --> 00:21:29,399 Speaker 1: of a really bad decision in the case called the 464 00:21:29,400 --> 00:21:32,560 Speaker 1: Slaughterhouse Cases, where the Supreme Court effectively said that was 465 00:21:32,600 --> 00:21:36,199 Speaker 1: just an administrative clause of the fourteenth Amendment. But what 466 00:21:36,320 --> 00:21:38,680 Speaker 1: that created was a need for the court to then 467 00:21:38,880 --> 00:21:43,000 Speaker 1: find all of its answers through the substantive due process clause. 468 00:21:43,040 --> 00:21:44,560 Speaker 1: And I think that was the beginning of the death 469 00:21:44,560 --> 00:21:47,600 Speaker 1: of our jurisprudence in this country. Speaking of antonin Scalia, 470 00:21:47,640 --> 00:21:49,640 Speaker 1: who we spoke about before in the context of my father, 471 00:21:50,040 --> 00:21:52,760 Speaker 1: this was probably one of his life's work was to 472 00:21:52,800 --> 00:21:56,119 Speaker 1: point out the legal betrayal at the heart of what 473 00:21:56,160 --> 00:21:58,960 Speaker 1: you call substantive due process. That's what ultimately led to 474 00:21:59,040 --> 00:22:02,919 Speaker 1: Rove Wade identifying or substantive rights in the due process 475 00:22:02,960 --> 00:22:05,720 Speaker 1: clause that never existed in the Constitution. But what the 476 00:22:05,800 --> 00:22:08,520 Speaker 1: due process clause and substantive due process says is that, okay, 477 00:22:08,640 --> 00:22:11,880 Speaker 1: there's certain rights that the Constitution basically has to guarantee. 478 00:22:12,320 --> 00:22:14,560 Speaker 1: The Court could have gone to the Privileges and Immunities 479 00:22:14,560 --> 00:22:16,760 Speaker 1: clause of the fourteenth Amendment. That would have made more sense. 480 00:22:16,760 --> 00:22:18,719 Speaker 1: That if you're a citizen of this country. And by 481 00:22:18,720 --> 00:22:20,080 Speaker 1: the way, the beauty of that is it didn't say 482 00:22:20,119 --> 00:22:23,760 Speaker 1: all persons, it said all citizens. So what are the 483 00:22:23,840 --> 00:22:25,879 Speaker 1: rights that you gain as a citizen of this country. 484 00:22:26,040 --> 00:22:28,080 Speaker 1: That's not just a human right. Human rights are a 485 00:22:28,080 --> 00:22:31,200 Speaker 1: different thing. Human rights aren't codified in the Constitution. Human 486 00:22:31,320 --> 00:22:33,560 Speaker 1: rights are a colloquial discussion. But what are the rights 487 00:22:33,560 --> 00:22:35,040 Speaker 1: that if you're a citizen of this country you ought 488 00:22:35,040 --> 00:22:37,280 Speaker 1: to enjoy. The Court never really took that up, even 489 00:22:37,320 --> 00:22:39,120 Speaker 1: though that's what the framers of the Fourteenth Amendment wanted 490 00:22:39,119 --> 00:22:41,200 Speaker 1: them to take up, And instead the Court just started 491 00:22:41,280 --> 00:22:43,439 Speaker 1: making up all kinds of invisible rights like the right 492 00:22:43,480 --> 00:22:45,679 Speaker 1: to privacy or whatever that was codified in the right 493 00:22:45,720 --> 00:22:47,880 Speaker 1: to have an abortion and rov Wade then I think 494 00:22:47,960 --> 00:22:49,919 Speaker 1: led us down a path to say that, you know, 495 00:22:49,960 --> 00:22:52,920 Speaker 1: a lot of the victimhood narratives and identity politic narratives, 496 00:22:53,080 --> 00:22:56,680 Speaker 1: and even the racial equality that we have to locate into. 497 00:22:56,760 --> 00:22:59,119 Speaker 1: Some of the jurisprudence came from this idea of substantive 498 00:22:59,200 --> 00:23:02,000 Speaker 1: due process, which I think in this new court now 499 00:23:02,119 --> 00:23:03,960 Speaker 1: is maybe in the process of being turned around. If 500 00:23:03,960 --> 00:23:05,639 Speaker 1: you look at the kinds of things Clarence Thomas has 501 00:23:05,680 --> 00:23:08,800 Speaker 1: been saying in the wake of Rose overturn the problems. 502 00:23:08,840 --> 00:23:10,440 Speaker 1: It took us a century and a half to get there, 503 00:23:10,760 --> 00:23:12,919 Speaker 1: But a lot of the victimhood narratives that were created 504 00:23:12,920 --> 00:23:14,640 Speaker 1: in the last century and a half I trace back 505 00:23:14,640 --> 00:23:18,160 Speaker 1: to some of the failed jurisprudence around substitute due process. 506 00:23:18,480 --> 00:23:21,320 Speaker 1: Relating to the early cases around the fourteenth Amendment. One 507 00:23:21,359 --> 00:23:23,840 Speaker 1: of the things you point out in terms of people 508 00:23:23,840 --> 00:23:29,119 Speaker 1: who an effect have been substantively cheated is that Asian 509 00:23:29,160 --> 00:23:34,960 Speaker 1: Americans are being discriminated against in college applications. But the left, 510 00:23:35,000 --> 00:23:41,159 Speaker 1: which was historically against discrimination says and does nothing about it. Absolutely. 511 00:23:41,160 --> 00:23:43,440 Speaker 1: And look, I think that there is an anti white 512 00:23:43,440 --> 00:23:46,680 Speaker 1: discrimination problem in top universities, but the anti Asian discrimination 513 00:23:46,680 --> 00:23:48,399 Speaker 1: problem is even bigger. If you just look at the numbers, 514 00:23:48,640 --> 00:23:51,439 Speaker 1: and the average SAT score required to get into a 515 00:23:51,440 --> 00:23:54,399 Speaker 1: top college if you're an Asian American applicant relative to 516 00:23:54,400 --> 00:23:57,399 Speaker 1: a black one is over four hundred points and for 517 00:23:57,440 --> 00:23:59,960 Speaker 1: a test that's only sixteen hundred, where you can't get 518 00:24:00,080 --> 00:24:02,199 Speaker 1: less than five hundred if you try, you have to 519 00:24:02,200 --> 00:24:04,000 Speaker 1: try really hard to get less than five hundred. That's 520 00:24:04,000 --> 00:24:06,080 Speaker 1: a huge swing at the end of the day. And 521 00:24:06,119 --> 00:24:08,639 Speaker 1: they call it, you know, Harvard, this is one of 522 00:24:08,680 --> 00:24:11,119 Speaker 1: my alma maters certainly used to call this version of 523 00:24:11,119 --> 00:24:14,360 Speaker 1: the problem the Jewish problem. They effectively say the same 524 00:24:14,359 --> 00:24:16,679 Speaker 1: thing about Asians. Now they have an Asian problem. And 525 00:24:16,800 --> 00:24:19,760 Speaker 1: my view is, you know what, if you apply meritocratic 526 00:24:19,800 --> 00:24:22,520 Speaker 1: criteria to get the best athletes, the best musicians, and 527 00:24:22,560 --> 00:24:24,960 Speaker 1: of course the best academics, and they all turn out 528 00:24:24,960 --> 00:24:27,480 Speaker 1: to be one skin color or another, I could care 529 00:24:27,640 --> 00:24:29,480 Speaker 1: less at the end of the day, because you know 530 00:24:29,520 --> 00:24:34,320 Speaker 1: who isn't applying DEI criteria to their college admissions. China, Okay, 531 00:24:34,400 --> 00:24:37,520 Speaker 1: China is applying the meritocratic principles that used to describe 532 00:24:37,560 --> 00:24:40,000 Speaker 1: this country, and a certain sense, it makes me both 533 00:24:40,040 --> 00:24:43,080 Speaker 1: sad and worried as a country to see our culture 534 00:24:43,160 --> 00:24:47,480 Speaker 1: of excellence and exceptionalism leap oceans to lift up places 535 00:24:47,480 --> 00:24:51,240 Speaker 1: like China. Well, ironically, the maoist culture of victimhood in 536 00:24:51,320 --> 00:24:54,840 Speaker 1: China has now leapt oceans to depress the United States. 537 00:24:55,280 --> 00:24:57,000 Speaker 1: But you know, I think part of the goal of 538 00:24:57,040 --> 00:24:59,520 Speaker 1: identifying the problem is to see it with clear eyes. 539 00:25:00,040 --> 00:25:01,600 Speaker 1: Once you see it with clear eyes, you can say that, 540 00:25:01,640 --> 00:25:04,520 Speaker 1: all right, if not out of desire, then out of necessity, 541 00:25:04,560 --> 00:25:06,119 Speaker 1: we're going to have to find that path back to 542 00:25:06,160 --> 00:25:08,399 Speaker 1: meritocracy and excellence. And that's the case I'm make in 543 00:25:08,400 --> 00:25:10,320 Speaker 1: the book. I happen to agree with you about this 544 00:25:11,000 --> 00:25:15,800 Speaker 1: importance of meritocracy and the idea that, you know, people 545 00:25:15,800 --> 00:25:17,720 Speaker 1: who work hard and succeed ought to be able to 546 00:25:17,720 --> 00:25:20,960 Speaker 1: work hard and succeed. It's fascinating to me that none 547 00:25:20,960 --> 00:25:25,560 Speaker 1: of these principles of quotas are applied in athletics. It's interesting, right, yeah, 548 00:25:25,600 --> 00:25:28,480 Speaker 1: I mean, you don't have a quota for short, white 549 00:25:28,520 --> 00:25:32,040 Speaker 1: basketball players or for skinny Asian kids with glasses to 550 00:25:32,119 --> 00:25:34,520 Speaker 1: be on the football field either think about it. So 551 00:25:34,760 --> 00:25:38,240 Speaker 1: athletics in a way, is the last stand of a 552 00:25:38,359 --> 00:25:41,000 Speaker 1: kind of meritocracy of achievement. I mean, if you can 553 00:25:41,040 --> 00:25:42,359 Speaker 1: do it, you can do it, and if you can't, 554 00:25:42,400 --> 00:25:44,680 Speaker 1: you can't. Everyone told me I wasn't allowed to write 555 00:25:44,680 --> 00:25:46,600 Speaker 1: in this chapter, but I have a chapter on black 556 00:25:46,680 --> 00:25:49,080 Speaker 1: victimhood in this book. I think you cannot have a 557 00:25:49,160 --> 00:25:51,640 Speaker 1: thorough book about victimhood cultre in the United States without 558 00:25:51,640 --> 00:25:53,919 Speaker 1: taking a clear eyed lens at black victim that they 559 00:25:53,920 --> 00:25:55,440 Speaker 1: say you can't write that because you're not black. I 560 00:25:55,480 --> 00:25:57,439 Speaker 1: don't believe in those kinds of distinctions. I mean, if 561 00:25:57,440 --> 00:25:59,640 Speaker 1: you actually care about black lives in this country, you're 562 00:25:59,640 --> 00:26:02,600 Speaker 1: gonna have to talk openly about the culture of victimhood 563 00:26:02,840 --> 00:26:06,160 Speaker 1: that permeates much of Black America, especially in the inner 564 00:26:06,160 --> 00:26:08,760 Speaker 1: city and other poor and disempowered communities. And I can 565 00:26:08,760 --> 00:26:09,960 Speaker 1: go into that new But one of the things I 566 00:26:09,960 --> 00:26:11,919 Speaker 1: do in the chapter that comes I think right after that, 567 00:26:12,680 --> 00:26:15,760 Speaker 1: is I have a separate concern about the spread of 568 00:26:15,840 --> 00:26:18,960 Speaker 1: victimhood culture to the right. And just as much as 569 00:26:19,000 --> 00:26:21,159 Speaker 1: we have a black victimhood culture in this country, we 570 00:26:21,200 --> 00:26:24,440 Speaker 1: also have an emerging version of white victimhood culture. To say, well, 571 00:26:24,440 --> 00:26:27,120 Speaker 1: you know what, you guys claim those grievances, Well, guess 572 00:26:27,200 --> 00:26:29,439 Speaker 1: what we're going to claim bigger grievances in response. And 573 00:26:29,440 --> 00:26:30,760 Speaker 1: then you know what, the Asians are now getting in 574 00:26:30,840 --> 00:26:32,520 Speaker 1: on the game too. So my parents came to this 575 00:26:32,520 --> 00:26:35,080 Speaker 1: country's immigrants. I was first generation. When I look at 576 00:26:35,119 --> 00:26:38,280 Speaker 1: my kids generation, the second and third generations, they're coming 577 00:26:38,359 --> 00:26:40,359 Speaker 1: up with their own victimhood narratives, saying well, I'm actually 578 00:26:40,359 --> 00:26:42,760 Speaker 1: a person of color and I've been through all kinds 579 00:26:42,760 --> 00:26:45,280 Speaker 1: of hardships. That, by the way, is your grandparents who 580 00:26:45,280 --> 00:26:47,399 Speaker 1: went through the real hardship, coming halfway around the world 581 00:26:47,480 --> 00:26:49,359 Speaker 1: without a dime in their pocket to be able to 582 00:26:49,400 --> 00:26:50,920 Speaker 1: make the life that you enjoy today. Yet you're the 583 00:26:50,920 --> 00:26:53,760 Speaker 1: ones spinning up the victimhood narratives. And so my concern 584 00:26:54,040 --> 00:26:57,080 Speaker 1: is that rather than seeing for example, the conservative movement 585 00:26:57,160 --> 00:26:59,919 Speaker 1: rise up, or even second generation Asian Americans rise up 586 00:26:59,920 --> 00:27:02,080 Speaker 1: and say, you know what, We're gonna defeat victimhood with 587 00:27:02,119 --> 00:27:05,000 Speaker 1: excellence and meritocracy, instead it's going the other way around. 588 00:27:05,320 --> 00:27:07,680 Speaker 1: The spread of victimhood is defeating the spread of excellence, 589 00:27:07,760 --> 00:27:10,840 Speaker 1: and everyone is playing the victimhood Olympics, and there is 590 00:27:10,960 --> 00:27:14,520 Speaker 1: no gold medalist in the American Victimhood Olympics. America as 591 00:27:14,520 --> 00:27:17,000 Speaker 1: a nation is the loser in the end. And that 592 00:27:17,080 --> 00:27:19,440 Speaker 1: was another chapter that people told me not to write about. Right, well, 593 00:27:19,480 --> 00:27:21,640 Speaker 1: you know your conservative base isn't gonna like this chapter 594 00:27:21,640 --> 00:27:25,080 Speaker 1: about conservative victimhood. I don't care if if liberals don't 595 00:27:25,080 --> 00:27:27,320 Speaker 1: like my black victimhood chapter, or people who follow me 596 00:27:27,600 --> 00:27:30,080 Speaker 1: today don't like me talking about conservative victimood. I think 597 00:27:30,119 --> 00:27:32,080 Speaker 1: we all have to take a look in the mirror, 598 00:27:32,440 --> 00:27:35,960 Speaker 1: take a long, hard look at ourselves, dig deep, and 599 00:27:36,000 --> 00:27:39,840 Speaker 1: ask ourselves what it is that defines our agency as individuals, 600 00:27:39,840 --> 00:27:42,320 Speaker 1: What is it that defines our identity as Americans. Let's 601 00:27:42,320 --> 00:27:45,040 Speaker 1: answer that question first before just pointing out the hypocrisies 602 00:27:45,040 --> 00:27:46,840 Speaker 1: on the other side. And I say this as someone 603 00:27:46,880 --> 00:27:49,320 Speaker 1: who's actually been guilty of this myself. I'm great at 604 00:27:49,320 --> 00:27:51,960 Speaker 1: pointing out hypocrisies and woking of the other side. But 605 00:27:52,040 --> 00:27:54,520 Speaker 1: how much are we actually doing to revive American identity 606 00:27:54,960 --> 00:27:57,000 Speaker 1: only a little bit by playing the hypocrisy on the 607 00:27:57,000 --> 00:27:58,879 Speaker 1: other side game. I think we need to look inside 608 00:27:58,920 --> 00:28:01,560 Speaker 1: and ask ourselves how we are going to overcome hardship, 609 00:28:01,880 --> 00:28:03,600 Speaker 1: rather than claim to be victims in the face of 610 00:28:03,600 --> 00:28:05,440 Speaker 1: the hardship that we face. And I think that's a 611 00:28:05,480 --> 00:28:08,040 Speaker 1: mistake that we conservatives sometimes make too often. You know. 612 00:28:08,080 --> 00:28:11,400 Speaker 1: I think one of the really important points you make 613 00:28:12,040 --> 00:28:14,399 Speaker 1: that contributes to this whole sense of the decay of 614 00:28:14,480 --> 00:28:18,960 Speaker 1: meritocracy is that government policies have created a culture of laziness. 615 00:28:19,400 --> 00:28:21,440 Speaker 1: I happen to think that's true. And I was one 616 00:28:21,480 --> 00:28:24,199 Speaker 1: of the lead authors of welfare reform, which even the 617 00:28:24,200 --> 00:28:27,400 Speaker 1: New York Times this week has admitted had a huge impact. 618 00:28:27,400 --> 00:28:31,080 Speaker 1: The biggest break in children and poverty comes directly as 619 00:28:31,080 --> 00:28:33,760 Speaker 1: a result of the welfare reform bill that Clinton and 620 00:28:33,800 --> 00:28:36,560 Speaker 1: I got passed in the nineteen ninety six. But it 621 00:28:36,640 --> 00:28:39,520 Speaker 1: was all aimed at work. Our response to welfare was work, 622 00:28:39,560 --> 00:28:42,040 Speaker 1: and as Ronald Reagan once said, a job is the 623 00:28:42,040 --> 00:28:45,920 Speaker 1: best social policy. From your perspective, though, when you say 624 00:28:46,040 --> 00:28:49,640 Speaker 1: in your book, government policies have created a culture of laziness, 625 00:28:50,000 --> 00:28:52,440 Speaker 1: what are you thinking of? What's your focus? Had a 626 00:28:52,480 --> 00:28:54,560 Speaker 1: bigger picture focus than in a neuro term focus. The 627 00:28:54,640 --> 00:28:57,760 Speaker 1: near term focus was just to point out the laughably 628 00:28:58,040 --> 00:29:03,080 Speaker 1: predictable pandemic policies that incentivized people not to work. But 629 00:29:03,200 --> 00:29:05,959 Speaker 1: the government bore this illusion that Okay, well, that's going 630 00:29:06,000 --> 00:29:08,280 Speaker 1: to be temporary. But even if we give people a 631 00:29:08,280 --> 00:29:10,920 Speaker 1: disincentive to work for a year or two, once we 632 00:29:11,040 --> 00:29:13,080 Speaker 1: stopped giving them those benefits and take them away, suddenly 633 00:29:13,080 --> 00:29:14,360 Speaker 1: people are going to get off their butts and go 634 00:29:14,360 --> 00:29:16,440 Speaker 1: back to work again. And one of the facts that 635 00:29:16,520 --> 00:29:19,400 Speaker 1: surprised a lot of those policymakers is once human beings 636 00:29:19,480 --> 00:29:22,880 Speaker 1: form a certain habit, once they've grown a cultured to 637 00:29:23,000 --> 00:29:25,640 Speaker 1: living their life in a certain way, they don't respond 638 00:29:25,680 --> 00:29:28,040 Speaker 1: to economic incentives in quite the same way on the 639 00:29:28,040 --> 00:29:31,000 Speaker 1: rebound as they did on the decline. And I'm a 640 00:29:31,040 --> 00:29:34,240 Speaker 1: big fan of, you know, making my audiences a little 641 00:29:34,240 --> 00:29:37,040 Speaker 1: bit uncomfortable here, and I use this section of the 642 00:29:37,040 --> 00:29:40,920 Speaker 1: book to do that. Let's remind ourselves that Kamala Harris 643 00:29:40,920 --> 00:29:44,360 Speaker 1: and Bernie Sanders who said that they would oppose a 644 00:29:44,400 --> 00:29:47,360 Speaker 1: COVID stimulus package that did not include two thousand dollars 645 00:29:47,360 --> 00:29:49,800 Speaker 1: in aid in families instead of sixteen hundred dollars. That 646 00:29:49,840 --> 00:29:52,720 Speaker 1: was Bernie Sanders and Kamala Harris, but two people supporting 647 00:29:52,720 --> 00:29:56,160 Speaker 1: that right alongside them were Josh Holly and Donald Trump. 648 00:29:56,480 --> 00:29:58,080 Speaker 1: And I think that while this is a problem that 649 00:29:58,400 --> 00:30:00,960 Speaker 1: mostly lands at the feet of the Democrat. I think 650 00:30:00,960 --> 00:30:02,720 Speaker 1: that this is another one where conservatives have to look 651 00:30:02,760 --> 00:30:04,480 Speaker 1: themselves in the mirror and say, what role did we 652 00:30:04,600 --> 00:30:07,560 Speaker 1: play in also pandering to the Roman version of bread 653 00:30:07,560 --> 00:30:10,280 Speaker 1: and circuses. Okay, if the government aid is the bread, 654 00:30:10,320 --> 00:30:12,520 Speaker 1: then the identity politics is the circus. And I think 655 00:30:12,880 --> 00:30:14,840 Speaker 1: the left definitely has more of a monopoly on the 656 00:30:14,880 --> 00:30:17,440 Speaker 1: identity politics, but both parties have a little bit of 657 00:30:17,440 --> 00:30:20,040 Speaker 1: blame on the bread problem of throwing bread to the masses. 658 00:30:20,320 --> 00:30:22,320 Speaker 1: As we often joke, it's never legal to bribe a 659 00:30:22,320 --> 00:30:24,920 Speaker 1: citizen to vote for you, unless you're using government money 660 00:30:24,960 --> 00:30:26,760 Speaker 1: to do it. And at the end of the day, 661 00:30:26,800 --> 00:30:29,320 Speaker 1: we have created this culture of laziness. Now why has 662 00:30:29,400 --> 00:30:32,600 Speaker 1: that had such staying power? And this is the other 663 00:30:32,600 --> 00:30:35,720 Speaker 1: part I hit in the book is that victimhood fits 664 00:30:36,040 --> 00:30:39,160 Speaker 1: laziness like a glove. And what I mean by that 665 00:30:39,320 --> 00:30:42,280 Speaker 1: is actually what's at the heart of this is generational sloth. 666 00:30:42,640 --> 00:30:44,600 Speaker 1: People are lazy. It is one of the human vices. 667 00:30:44,800 --> 00:30:47,120 Speaker 1: As I even bet in making my business decisions, never 668 00:30:47,160 --> 00:30:49,479 Speaker 1: bet against the principle of human laziness. When you're doing 669 00:30:49,520 --> 00:30:51,920 Speaker 1: a partnership with another company, figure out what gets the 670 00:30:51,920 --> 00:30:53,520 Speaker 1: guy on the other side to get home at five o'clock. 671 00:30:53,560 --> 00:30:55,280 Speaker 1: That's what's going to get your deal done. But at 672 00:30:55,320 --> 00:30:58,040 Speaker 1: the end of the day, now, this isn't people admitting 673 00:30:58,040 --> 00:31:00,720 Speaker 1: their laziness. Take a woman like dreen Ford. Okay, she 674 00:31:00,760 --> 00:31:02,600 Speaker 1: was one of the leaders of the so called anti 675 00:31:02,680 --> 00:31:04,720 Speaker 1: work movement over the last couple of years during the 676 00:31:04,840 --> 00:31:08,040 Speaker 1: COVID niteen pandemic, multiple gender identities, whole nine yards exactly 677 00:31:08,080 --> 00:31:10,440 Speaker 1: fits a certain stereotype that you might expect of someone 678 00:31:10,520 --> 00:31:13,240 Speaker 1: leading this kind of anti work crusade with a veneer 679 00:31:13,240 --> 00:31:15,920 Speaker 1: of social justice behind it. But I think that the 680 00:31:16,000 --> 00:31:18,520 Speaker 1: thing that she says is and it's worth taking seriously. 681 00:31:19,520 --> 00:31:22,920 Speaker 1: This is not just about not working. This is about 682 00:31:23,520 --> 00:31:27,120 Speaker 1: dismantling the oppression of capitalism. This is about taking apart 683 00:31:27,160 --> 00:31:30,480 Speaker 1: the colonialism of capitalism. That's what this is about. And 684 00:31:30,520 --> 00:31:34,840 Speaker 1: when you give this attitude of laziness the moral legitimacy, 685 00:31:35,280 --> 00:31:38,640 Speaker 1: the moral sanctimony of actually having a moral mission behind it, 686 00:31:39,200 --> 00:31:41,600 Speaker 1: that's what gives its staying power. So it's not just 687 00:31:41,640 --> 00:31:45,280 Speaker 1: the people are lazy. They feel like they're morally justified 688 00:31:45,320 --> 00:31:49,320 Speaker 1: in being lazy. Dare I say, even morally obliged to 689 00:31:49,360 --> 00:31:52,040 Speaker 1: stick it to the system and dismantle the oppression of 690 00:31:52,160 --> 00:31:54,600 Speaker 1: capitalism this way. And the sad part about it is 691 00:31:54,640 --> 00:31:58,160 Speaker 1: government has subsidized exactly that psychological attitude. And even the 692 00:31:58,160 --> 00:32:00,160 Speaker 1: sadder part about it, it's not just the Democratic the 693 00:32:00,160 --> 00:32:03,040 Speaker 1: Republican Party bears some responsibility too. Well. It's interestingly we 694 00:32:03,120 --> 00:32:06,320 Speaker 1: have a program called the American New Majority Project where 695 00:32:06,400 --> 00:32:08,400 Speaker 1: we do a lot of polling and a lot of 696 00:32:08,440 --> 00:32:12,880 Speaker 1: focus groups. Seventy six percent of the American people believe 697 00:32:13,000 --> 00:32:15,320 Speaker 1: that you should have to work if you get any 698 00:32:15,320 --> 00:32:19,960 Speaker 1: federal aid, whether it's medicaid or it's food stamps or 699 00:32:20,000 --> 00:32:23,480 Speaker 1: whatever it is. If you're not severely disabled, you should 700 00:32:23,560 --> 00:32:25,720 Speaker 1: have to be working in order to get it, which 701 00:32:25,720 --> 00:32:28,440 Speaker 1: would be of course a revolution and the whole structure 702 00:32:28,480 --> 00:32:30,760 Speaker 1: of the current system. It's the obvious principle. It's part 703 00:32:30,800 --> 00:32:32,680 Speaker 1: of the welfare reform that you played a role in passing. 704 00:32:32,800 --> 00:32:35,000 Speaker 1: Just as recently as what a couple of decades and 705 00:32:35,040 --> 00:32:38,880 Speaker 1: a half ago, that has become a controversial notion today, 706 00:32:39,000 --> 00:32:42,000 Speaker 1: perhaps even systemically racist if you ask the right people. 707 00:32:42,480 --> 00:32:43,920 Speaker 1: At the end of the day, though, I think that 708 00:32:44,160 --> 00:32:47,960 Speaker 1: we are dressing up what are basic human frailties with 709 00:32:48,120 --> 00:32:51,160 Speaker 1: moral legitimacy and That's why I think the cultural aspect 710 00:32:51,160 --> 00:32:53,680 Speaker 1: of this discussion in this book is so important, because 711 00:32:53,720 --> 00:32:56,640 Speaker 1: we're able to then take off that cultural veneer and 712 00:32:56,720 --> 00:32:59,000 Speaker 1: smoke out what's actually going on once we see that 713 00:32:59,040 --> 00:33:01,160 Speaker 1: with clear rise. I'm still an optimist that we're gonna 714 00:33:01,160 --> 00:33:02,479 Speaker 1: be able to turn this around, but it's not going 715 00:33:02,520 --> 00:33:04,600 Speaker 1: to happen automatically. It's part of why you know I 716 00:33:04,640 --> 00:33:22,640 Speaker 1: took the trouble to write the book. If you look out, 717 00:33:22,680 --> 00:33:26,400 Speaker 1: say twenty years, and you imagine that we have re 718 00:33:26,720 --> 00:33:32,200 Speaker 1: established meritocracy, We've re established American exceptionalism. How do you 719 00:33:32,200 --> 00:33:34,960 Speaker 1: think it happens. Yeah, I think it doesn't happen through 720 00:33:34,960 --> 00:33:37,120 Speaker 1: our politics. So I'll give you one or two paths 721 00:33:37,120 --> 00:33:38,600 Speaker 1: to get there. I'll give you the positive path that 722 00:33:38,640 --> 00:33:40,720 Speaker 1: I'm hopeful for, and then I'll give you the path 723 00:33:40,760 --> 00:33:43,480 Speaker 1: that I think is more likely. The path I'm hopeful 724 00:33:43,520 --> 00:33:48,800 Speaker 1: for is that it happens through non governmental institutions like companies, 725 00:33:48,880 --> 00:33:51,400 Speaker 1: like the private sector waking up to the fact that 726 00:33:51,440 --> 00:33:54,320 Speaker 1: the companies, in order to be competitive on a global stage, 727 00:33:54,600 --> 00:33:58,320 Speaker 1: need to revive that meritocratic culture within at Strive. This 728 00:33:58,400 --> 00:34:00,320 Speaker 1: is the competitor I found into Black Crow. One of 729 00:34:00,320 --> 00:34:02,720 Speaker 1: the model shareholder resolutions we've said we would support as 730 00:34:02,760 --> 00:34:05,800 Speaker 1: a shareholder in Corporate America's boardrooms is to say that 731 00:34:05,880 --> 00:34:09,560 Speaker 1: hiring should be based on merit without regard to race, sex, 732 00:34:09,680 --> 00:34:12,840 Speaker 1: or politics period. You'd think that's intuitive, but many companies 733 00:34:12,840 --> 00:34:16,760 Speaker 1: have adopted these racial equity proposals by shareholder force, voted 734 00:34:16,760 --> 00:34:19,440 Speaker 1: for in favor by black Rock and others in their boardrooms. Well, 735 00:34:19,480 --> 00:34:21,440 Speaker 1: I think if we're able to solve this through the market, 736 00:34:21,480 --> 00:34:23,640 Speaker 1: where people are able to vote with their dollars every day, 737 00:34:23,680 --> 00:34:25,359 Speaker 1: you don't have to wait till November to vote, You're 738 00:34:25,440 --> 00:34:28,239 Speaker 1: voting with your investment dollars every day. To take this 739 00:34:28,320 --> 00:34:30,480 Speaker 1: change to the private sector, we might be able to 740 00:34:30,560 --> 00:34:33,120 Speaker 1: use the market to get companies like Netflix to do 741 00:34:33,160 --> 00:34:35,200 Speaker 1: a one eighty Netflix earlier this year did a one 742 00:34:35,239 --> 00:34:36,840 Speaker 1: eighty degree turn. And you know what, I've been a 743 00:34:36,840 --> 00:34:38,759 Speaker 1: critic of Netflix for men of the last few years, 744 00:34:38,960 --> 00:34:40,880 Speaker 1: but I'm a believer in calling out good behavior when 745 00:34:40,920 --> 00:34:44,720 Speaker 1: I see it too. Netflix had a disastrous quarterly earnings 746 00:34:44,719 --> 00:34:49,280 Speaker 1: report early this year. Subscriber growth fell off a cliff, earnings, profits, revenue, 747 00:34:49,600 --> 00:34:52,719 Speaker 1: and you know what they did. They added excellence to 748 00:34:52,800 --> 00:34:55,839 Speaker 1: the top of their internal cultural document, and they told 749 00:34:55,840 --> 00:34:58,080 Speaker 1: their employees, Look, some of you may be asked to 750 00:34:58,160 --> 00:35:00,680 Speaker 1: work on projects that we think have a artistic merits 751 00:35:00,719 --> 00:35:02,239 Speaker 1: that our customers want to see. And if you don't 752 00:35:02,280 --> 00:35:03,920 Speaker 1: want it, and you don't want to work on it, 753 00:35:04,040 --> 00:35:05,759 Speaker 1: great show yourself the door and feel free to work 754 00:35:05,800 --> 00:35:07,760 Speaker 1: at a different company. That's a company at the epicenter 755 00:35:07,800 --> 00:35:10,000 Speaker 1: of Hollywood. I couldn't imagined this company, which I've been 756 00:35:10,000 --> 00:35:12,400 Speaker 1: a critic of for years, saying that as recently as 757 00:35:12,440 --> 00:35:14,480 Speaker 1: a year or two ago. So those are the kinds 758 00:35:14,480 --> 00:35:16,280 Speaker 1: of things that give me optimism, not in our politics, 759 00:35:16,280 --> 00:35:18,600 Speaker 1: but in the private sector. And maybe I'm biased new 760 00:35:18,680 --> 00:35:21,080 Speaker 1: because that's the front that I'm also you know, playing 761 00:35:21,080 --> 00:35:23,120 Speaker 1: a role in hopefully helping to create through my efforts 762 00:35:23,120 --> 00:35:26,040 Speaker 1: in the private sector. That's the good version. Here's the 763 00:35:26,080 --> 00:35:28,480 Speaker 1: realist version is that it may just happen as a 764 00:35:28,520 --> 00:35:30,759 Speaker 1: matter of necessity. Okay, And what do I mean by 765 00:35:30,760 --> 00:35:33,600 Speaker 1: that one word China? I go through in the book 766 00:35:33,640 --> 00:35:36,600 Speaker 1: An Analogy, a deep study of the Punic Wars, Which 767 00:35:36,640 --> 00:35:37,600 Speaker 1: why do I do this in the middle of a 768 00:35:37,640 --> 00:35:40,520 Speaker 1: book about American victimhood and American excellence? Well, I think 769 00:35:40,560 --> 00:35:43,319 Speaker 1: history gives us a lens and you often hear, you 770 00:35:43,320 --> 00:35:45,959 Speaker 1: know the San Antonio Spurs coach Greg Popovitch a legend, 771 00:35:46,000 --> 00:35:48,000 Speaker 1: I like the guy right here often asks the question. 772 00:35:48,080 --> 00:35:50,560 Speaker 1: I sometimes think we're Rome. We're in the beginning of 773 00:35:50,600 --> 00:35:52,560 Speaker 1: our decline. One of the things I say in the 774 00:35:52,600 --> 00:35:55,560 Speaker 1: book is we would be so lucky as to be Rome. 775 00:35:55,920 --> 00:35:57,680 Speaker 1: The real question we ought to be asking is might 776 00:35:57,719 --> 00:36:01,040 Speaker 1: we be Carthage? Okay, Roman Arthur's you're drawn into a 777 00:36:01,040 --> 00:36:04,240 Speaker 1: conflict over a little island called Sicily. I wonder whether 778 00:36:04,280 --> 00:36:07,520 Speaker 1: Taiwan might end up being the Sicily of our era. 779 00:36:07,960 --> 00:36:11,800 Speaker 1: And we may indulge ourselves through analogy's humble brags, asking 780 00:36:11,840 --> 00:36:14,240 Speaker 1: ourselves whether we're Rome over a decline. The Roman Empire 781 00:36:14,280 --> 00:36:16,600 Speaker 1: lasted thousands of years. We're two or fifty years into 782 00:36:16,600 --> 00:36:19,239 Speaker 1: our experiment. The question we should be asking ourselves if 783 00:36:19,280 --> 00:36:21,319 Speaker 1: we're really giving into these victim of narratives and giving 784 00:36:21,400 --> 00:36:23,680 Speaker 1: up on our meritocratic culture, we might be closer to 785 00:36:23,680 --> 00:36:26,160 Speaker 1: being Carthage than to be Rome. And I think that 786 00:36:26,200 --> 00:36:28,759 Speaker 1: it might be necessity that serves us up the need 787 00:36:28,800 --> 00:36:31,000 Speaker 1: to get our act together. If we do get drawn 788 00:36:31,040 --> 00:36:33,400 Speaker 1: into either indirect or dare I say direct conflict with 789 00:36:33,480 --> 00:36:36,279 Speaker 1: China over the course of the next decade. I hope 790 00:36:36,280 --> 00:36:38,960 Speaker 1: it's not too late by Sometimes it is hardship, including 791 00:36:38,960 --> 00:36:42,520 Speaker 1: on a geopolitical stage, that provides the shock to the system, 792 00:36:42,560 --> 00:36:45,000 Speaker 1: the kind of catalyst we need to otherwise wake up 793 00:36:45,080 --> 00:36:48,279 Speaker 1: from our culture of sloth and being lulled into our 794 00:36:48,320 --> 00:36:50,680 Speaker 1: sense of incumbency. If we're going to break past the 795 00:36:50,719 --> 00:36:53,880 Speaker 1: incumbency in the victimhood narratives back to winning unabashedly and 796 00:36:54,040 --> 00:36:56,480 Speaker 1: restoring merit. I hope it doesn't come to it, but 797 00:36:56,520 --> 00:36:58,920 Speaker 1: it may come to it that a military occasion in 798 00:36:58,960 --> 00:37:01,520 Speaker 1: a geopolitical occasion is what prompts us to get back 799 00:37:01,520 --> 00:37:04,000 Speaker 1: on track. Now, I think that's a very good analogy. 800 00:37:04,000 --> 00:37:08,320 Speaker 1: It actually be a very interesting study of Carthage in Rome. 801 00:37:08,760 --> 00:37:11,640 Speaker 1: I had some friends who actually, during the Cold War 802 00:37:12,200 --> 00:37:15,799 Speaker 1: formed a group that called itself the Carthaginians because they 803 00:37:15,840 --> 00:37:19,520 Speaker 1: saw the Soviet Union as potentially being Rome and they 804 00:37:19,520 --> 00:37:22,319 Speaker 1: wanted to get people to realize that this was a 805 00:37:22,360 --> 00:37:25,160 Speaker 1: life and death struggle. I'm amazed I didn't come across 806 00:37:25,200 --> 00:37:27,080 Speaker 1: that good for them, because they lit a fire. That's 807 00:37:27,120 --> 00:37:28,359 Speaker 1: kind of what I'm trying to do in this book, 808 00:37:28,400 --> 00:37:30,040 Speaker 1: is I make a provocative case that you know what 809 00:37:30,080 --> 00:37:31,840 Speaker 1: maybe are we Carthage. I want to light a fire 810 00:37:32,360 --> 00:37:34,680 Speaker 1: under the feet of the American soul and hopefully we 811 00:37:34,680 --> 00:37:37,200 Speaker 1: wake ourselves up out of this sense of entitlement that 812 00:37:37,239 --> 00:37:41,960 Speaker 1: we otherwise suffer. I think we have two very real 813 00:37:42,880 --> 00:37:47,359 Speaker 1: patterns of threat. One is straight out military defeat, which 814 00:37:47,400 --> 00:37:50,600 Speaker 1: I think is more possible than the Pentagon things. The 815 00:37:50,719 --> 00:37:55,239 Speaker 1: other is just gradual decay, not with China but also 816 00:37:55,280 --> 00:37:58,960 Speaker 1: with India. I mean the capacity of both of those 817 00:37:59,000 --> 00:38:02,600 Speaker 1: countries to continue you to invent the future. It's pretty powerful. 818 00:38:02,960 --> 00:38:04,600 Speaker 1: So here's where I'm gonna admit something to you, or 819 00:38:04,680 --> 00:38:06,400 Speaker 1: gonna remind you of something you probably don't know. You 820 00:38:06,400 --> 00:38:09,080 Speaker 1: said we first met thirteen months ago. That was sort 821 00:38:09,120 --> 00:38:12,600 Speaker 1: of true. We actually first cross paths about thirteen years ago. 822 00:38:12,719 --> 00:38:14,440 Speaker 1: But you know, you were on a stage and I 823 00:38:14,480 --> 00:38:16,319 Speaker 1: was in the audience, so you didn't know we met. 824 00:38:16,400 --> 00:38:18,760 Speaker 1: But I remember two things you actually said during that speech. 825 00:38:18,800 --> 00:38:19,799 Speaker 1: This might have been when I was a student at 826 00:38:19,800 --> 00:38:21,080 Speaker 1: Harvard and you might have come to the Kennedy School. 827 00:38:21,120 --> 00:38:23,640 Speaker 1: You probably don't even remember this, but you said two things. 828 00:38:23,880 --> 00:38:26,160 Speaker 1: One was, and I've used this phrase for the last 829 00:38:26,160 --> 00:38:31,400 Speaker 1: thirteen years of elegant decay. In describing the American decline 830 00:38:31,440 --> 00:38:34,160 Speaker 1: that could follow the European way, you described Europe's decline 831 00:38:34,160 --> 00:38:37,600 Speaker 1: as one of elegant decay. Okay, And that phrase stuck 832 00:38:37,600 --> 00:38:39,040 Speaker 1: with me because that isn't the second path that you 833 00:38:39,120 --> 00:38:41,399 Speaker 1: just described right now. And then this is just for fun. 834 00:38:41,440 --> 00:38:42,640 Speaker 1: But I don't know if you remember this, but the 835 00:38:42,680 --> 00:38:44,919 Speaker 1: second idea that you threw out for what we should 836 00:38:44,920 --> 00:38:48,080 Speaker 1: be doing in high schools was, you know, take the 837 00:38:48,080 --> 00:38:50,120 Speaker 1: nerdy guys who were good in math class and give 838 00:38:50,160 --> 00:38:51,799 Speaker 1: them money so they could go out in a date 839 00:38:51,880 --> 00:38:54,560 Speaker 1: and become the cool guys in school over the athletes, 840 00:38:54,920 --> 00:38:57,319 Speaker 1: and let's start the prize system. But you know, in 841 00:38:57,360 --> 00:39:00,120 Speaker 1: certain ways you've been thinking about reviving this culture of 842 00:39:00,160 --> 00:39:04,200 Speaker 1: merit and exceptionalism more than most. And so I didn't 843 00:39:04,239 --> 00:39:06,680 Speaker 1: quite use those ideas in this book, but I will 844 00:39:06,680 --> 00:39:09,680 Speaker 1: say the subtext of those ideas shows up all over 845 00:39:09,719 --> 00:39:13,360 Speaker 1: this book. Actually, well, Mitch Daniel, when he was governor 846 00:39:13,400 --> 00:39:18,480 Speaker 1: of Indiana, actually created an annual award for smart people, 847 00:39:19,200 --> 00:39:23,399 Speaker 1: with an annual banquet with a letter jacket, etc. It's 848 00:39:23,440 --> 00:39:26,680 Speaker 1: hard to realize now, but the original warning about how 849 00:39:26,719 --> 00:39:30,040 Speaker 1: bad our schools is a book called A Nation at Risk, 850 00:39:30,440 --> 00:39:33,960 Speaker 1: which was published in nineteen eighty three by the Reagan administration. 851 00:39:34,560 --> 00:39:37,560 Speaker 1: And here we are. We're almost thirty years later, and 852 00:39:38,080 --> 00:39:41,160 Speaker 1: if anything is worse, I mean we have not turned 853 00:39:41,160 --> 00:39:44,120 Speaker 1: it around. If anything it is worse, it is worse. 854 00:39:44,560 --> 00:39:45,880 Speaker 1: The good news is, I think there's gonna be a 855 00:39:45,920 --> 00:39:47,799 Speaker 1: domino effect across our culture. It's not like we have 856 00:39:47,840 --> 00:39:50,360 Speaker 1: to independently solve the market, then we have to independently 857 00:39:50,360 --> 00:39:52,200 Speaker 1: solve the culture, and education they we have to independently 858 00:39:52,200 --> 00:39:55,160 Speaker 1: doing politics. There's a domino effect where hare's trigger from 859 00:39:55,160 --> 00:39:57,440 Speaker 1: all of these things going together. But I think it's 860 00:39:57,440 --> 00:39:59,360 Speaker 1: going to take leadership in each of those institutions. We 861 00:39:59,400 --> 00:40:01,280 Speaker 1: do have a leadership vacuum of people who are afraid 862 00:40:01,320 --> 00:40:02,520 Speaker 1: of saying the kinds of things that you and I 863 00:40:02,520 --> 00:40:06,279 Speaker 1: are saying in their boardrooms, in their superintendent meetings, in 864 00:40:06,320 --> 00:40:09,480 Speaker 1: school districts. I would say, in corporate America, these are 865 00:40:09,480 --> 00:40:11,960 Speaker 1: the places where we had this culture of fear. You know, 866 00:40:11,960 --> 00:40:13,759 Speaker 1: I wrote a public letter to the board of directors 867 00:40:13,760 --> 00:40:16,440 Speaker 1: of Chevron last week, there was a shareholder letter to Chevron. 868 00:40:16,840 --> 00:40:20,560 Speaker 1: I'm engaging with companies across corporate America, and many of 869 00:40:20,600 --> 00:40:23,520 Speaker 1: these engagements and even In many of my informal conversations 870 00:40:23,520 --> 00:40:27,120 Speaker 1: that I'm having with directors and executives across corporate America's 871 00:40:27,160 --> 00:40:30,319 Speaker 1: in private, they will tell you how much they agree 872 00:40:30,360 --> 00:40:32,759 Speaker 1: with me. For example, hire based on merit rather than 873 00:40:32,760 --> 00:40:35,560 Speaker 1: these other factors. Focus exclusively on make and products and 874 00:40:35,560 --> 00:40:39,160 Speaker 1: services for profit. Don't apologize for make a profit, be successful. 875 00:40:39,200 --> 00:40:41,920 Speaker 1: That is the American way. It's what your actual capital 876 00:40:41,960 --> 00:40:44,920 Speaker 1: owners want you to do. Despite what Blackrock tells you. Privately, 877 00:40:45,440 --> 00:40:47,480 Speaker 1: all of them will agree, but publicly you look at 878 00:40:47,480 --> 00:40:49,719 Speaker 1: many of their statements and their carbon copy prints of 879 00:40:49,719 --> 00:40:51,759 Speaker 1: what Larry thinks us. I mean literally carbon copy prints. 880 00:40:51,760 --> 00:40:54,399 Speaker 1: It's like a cut and pace And I think that 881 00:40:54,400 --> 00:40:56,839 Speaker 1: that might sound depressing, but actually think it's an opportunity 882 00:40:57,320 --> 00:41:00,719 Speaker 1: where once you change the conversation even a little bit, 883 00:41:01,560 --> 00:41:04,719 Speaker 1: you have a discontinuous leap. It's a quantum leap to 884 00:41:05,080 --> 00:41:07,440 Speaker 1: changing the culture. And that's why I'm so focused on 885 00:41:07,520 --> 00:41:09,920 Speaker 1: doing this through the private sector, because in doing the 886 00:41:09,920 --> 00:41:13,279 Speaker 1: world a partisan politics, you're confined by the jersey of 887 00:41:13,320 --> 00:41:16,000 Speaker 1: the team you wear. The other team's jersey tries to 888 00:41:16,040 --> 00:41:18,640 Speaker 1: characterize everything you say through a partisan lens. I thought 889 00:41:18,640 --> 00:41:20,359 Speaker 1: a running for office, as I forget about that. Let's 890 00:41:20,400 --> 00:41:22,960 Speaker 1: actually pick the lower hanging fruit. And it's not just 891 00:41:23,000 --> 00:41:24,680 Speaker 1: the low hanging fruit that you then get. I think 892 00:41:24,680 --> 00:41:27,000 Speaker 1: you get pretty close to the whole tree, because the 893 00:41:27,040 --> 00:41:29,799 Speaker 1: domino effect, when everyone else starts saying in public what 894 00:41:29,840 --> 00:41:32,400 Speaker 1: they already believe in private, we could turn this around 895 00:41:32,480 --> 00:41:35,799 Speaker 1: quicker than most people think. It's not going to happen automatically, though, 896 00:41:36,120 --> 00:41:37,759 Speaker 1: I think that's right. And of course you'll make a 897 00:41:37,800 --> 00:41:40,960 Speaker 1: point that I've thought really deserves a lot more publicity 898 00:41:40,960 --> 00:41:43,680 Speaker 1: and a lot more analysis, and that isn't Larry Fink, 899 00:41:43,760 --> 00:41:47,239 Speaker 1: in many ways, is more destructive than George Soros. The 900 00:41:47,280 --> 00:41:51,120 Speaker 1: amount of power he wields, his ability in essence blackmail 901 00:41:51,560 --> 00:41:54,160 Speaker 1: big corporations because of the weight of the number of 902 00:41:54,160 --> 00:41:58,720 Speaker 1: shares he votes, is astonishing and is destructive in two senses. 903 00:41:58,760 --> 00:42:01,120 Speaker 1: Is it not even close? Just the scale of capital, 904 00:42:01,160 --> 00:42:03,359 Speaker 1: all right, black Rock manages, depending on the given day, 905 00:42:03,400 --> 00:42:06,239 Speaker 1: close to ten trillion dollars compared to what twenty thirty 906 00:42:06,239 --> 00:42:08,680 Speaker 1: billion dollars that even most of the wealthiest billionaires would have. 907 00:42:08,840 --> 00:42:10,520 Speaker 1: So that's a scale of capital. But the second part 908 00:42:10,560 --> 00:42:14,160 Speaker 1: is more important in Larry Fink's case. It is not 909 00:42:14,280 --> 00:42:17,920 Speaker 1: his money it is the money of everyday citizens that 910 00:42:18,080 --> 00:42:20,360 Speaker 1: is being used to advance these one side of political agendas. 911 00:42:20,400 --> 00:42:22,160 Speaker 1: Say what you will allow George Soros or Charles Koch 912 00:42:22,480 --> 00:42:25,680 Speaker 1: or anyone else. They're using their money this guy and 913 00:42:25,840 --> 00:42:27,759 Speaker 1: Black Rock in his institution, and I think it's true 914 00:42:27,760 --> 00:42:30,120 Speaker 1: of Vanguard and State Street and invest Go too. They 915 00:42:30,120 --> 00:42:31,799 Speaker 1: happen to be smaller, but they're every bit is bad 916 00:42:31,800 --> 00:42:34,680 Speaker 1: on these same metrics. Are using other people's money, probably 917 00:42:34,719 --> 00:42:37,400 Speaker 1: the money and most listeners of this program to advance 918 00:42:37,520 --> 00:42:40,880 Speaker 1: values that most of the capital owners would actually find anathemasis. 919 00:42:40,920 --> 00:42:43,400 Speaker 1: So I think that betrayal is quite something else than 920 00:42:43,440 --> 00:42:46,280 Speaker 1: a wealthy guy using his money to advance a political agenda. 921 00:42:46,520 --> 00:42:49,239 Speaker 1: You're exactly right, But I have to ask, You've now 922 00:42:49,440 --> 00:42:53,120 Speaker 1: got both Woking and Nation of Victims. So what do 923 00:42:53,200 --> 00:42:55,480 Speaker 1: you being to think about as your next book. Well, 924 00:42:55,560 --> 00:42:57,040 Speaker 1: you're the first person I'm sharing this with, and it's 925 00:42:57,040 --> 00:42:58,799 Speaker 1: still subject to change, so don't holme me to it. 926 00:42:58,840 --> 00:43:01,399 Speaker 1: But I'm liking the title of my next book as 927 00:43:01,640 --> 00:43:04,960 Speaker 1: the Heist actually in that book to the extent that 928 00:43:05,000 --> 00:43:06,879 Speaker 1: I find some of the time to write this, which 929 00:43:06,920 --> 00:43:08,279 Speaker 1: I hope you know, we'll see if I can do 930 00:43:08,360 --> 00:43:10,600 Speaker 1: this in the next year. My dream goal would be, 931 00:43:10,880 --> 00:43:12,440 Speaker 1: you know, to be as productive as someone like Y want. 932 00:43:12,440 --> 00:43:14,080 Speaker 1: I want to do one book a year. That would 933 00:43:14,080 --> 00:43:16,000 Speaker 1: be like my dream scenario. I don't know if I 934 00:43:16,000 --> 00:43:18,440 Speaker 1: can commit to that, but one of the things I 935 00:43:18,440 --> 00:43:21,520 Speaker 1: would want to explore in that book is what created populism. 936 00:43:21,560 --> 00:43:23,480 Speaker 1: I want to thank you. I do want to let 937 00:43:23,520 --> 00:43:25,600 Speaker 1: our listeners know we're gonna have a link to your 938 00:43:25,600 --> 00:43:29,040 Speaker 1: new book Nation of Victims, Identity Politics, the Death of 939 00:43:29,120 --> 00:43:31,719 Speaker 1: Merit and the Path Back to Excellence on our show 940 00:43:31,800 --> 00:43:34,640 Speaker 1: page at newtsworld dot com. And I want to right 941 00:43:34,680 --> 00:43:37,319 Speaker 1: now extend an invitation to you when your new book 942 00:43:37,360 --> 00:43:39,520 Speaker 1: comes out. I hope you'll come back and join us 943 00:43:39,560 --> 00:43:42,480 Speaker 1: again because it's always so fascinating to talk with you. 944 00:43:42,800 --> 00:43:49,200 Speaker 1: Thank you, I appreciate it. Thank you. To my guest, 945 00:43:49,320 --> 00:43:52,680 Speaker 1: the vic Ramaswami, you can get a link to buy 946 00:43:52,760 --> 00:43:55,160 Speaker 1: his new book Nation of Victims on our show page 947 00:43:55,480 --> 00:43:59,000 Speaker 1: at newtsworld dot com. Nuts World is produced by Ginglish 948 00:43:59,040 --> 00:44:03,760 Speaker 1: three sixty and iHeartMedia. Our executive producer is Gornsey Sloan, 949 00:44:04,120 --> 00:44:08,000 Speaker 1: our producer is Rebecca Howe, and our researcher is Rachel Peterson. 950 00:44:08,520 --> 00:44:11,400 Speaker 1: The artwork for the show was created by Steve Penley. 951 00:44:11,600 --> 00:44:14,719 Speaker 1: Special thanks to the team at Gingridge three sixty. If 952 00:44:14,719 --> 00:44:17,320 Speaker 1: you've been enjoying Newtsworld, I hope you'll go to Apple 953 00:44:17,440 --> 00:44:20,960 Speaker 1: Podcast and both rate us with five stars and give 954 00:44:21,040 --> 00:44:23,600 Speaker 1: us a review so others can learn what it's all about. 955 00:44:24,280 --> 00:44:26,840 Speaker 1: Right now, listeners of newts World consigned up from my 956 00:44:27,000 --> 00:44:30,960 Speaker 1: three free weekly columns at Gingwidge three sixty dot com 957 00:44:31,000 --> 00:44:35,080 Speaker 1: slash newsletter. I'm Newt Gingridge. This is Newtsworld.