WEBVTT - #047 Jason Flom with Jason Strong 0:00:02.720 --> 0:00:05.080 America has two point two million people in prison. If 0:00:05.080 --> 0:00:08.200 just one percent is wrong, that's twenty two thousand people. 0:00:08.800 --> 0:00:11.040 That's a lot of people's lives destroyed. 0:00:13.280 --> 0:00:18.440 If the system want to take you out of society, 0:00:18.920 --> 0:00:21.800 they will do it no matter what laws they have 0:00:21.880 --> 0:00:24.680 to break, saying that they are enforcing the laws, but 0:00:24.760 --> 0:00:25.800 they're breaking the lord. 0:00:27.400 --> 0:00:30.360 Having to hear those people say that I was guilty 0:00:30.360 --> 0:00:32.519 of a crime that I did not commit, and then 0:00:32.600 --> 0:00:34.559 hear my family break down behind me and not be 0:00:34.600 --> 0:00:37.600 able to do anything about it. I can't describe the 0:00:37.600 --> 0:00:38.640 crushing weight that was. 0:00:39.920 --> 0:00:42.680 I'm not anti police, I'm just anti corruption. 0:00:44.479 --> 0:00:46.840 A lot of times we look and we see something 0:00:46.920 --> 0:00:49.200 happen to somebody, and that's the first thing we said, 0:00:49.320 --> 0:00:50.720 that could never happen to me, But. 0:00:52.200 --> 0:00:52.600 They can. 0:00:57.240 --> 0:01:17.160 This is wrongful conviction. Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction with 0:01:17.280 --> 0:01:20.560 Jason Flaum. This is the opening episode of season five, 0:01:20.800 --> 0:01:26.720 and I'm absolutely honored to have today's guest Jason Strong. Jason, 0:01:26.760 --> 0:01:27.600 welcome to the show. 0:01:27.959 --> 0:01:29.880 Thank you very much. I appreciate you having me on. 0:01:29.959 --> 0:01:30.760 I'm honored to be here. 0:01:30.880 --> 0:01:33.800 Yeah, I'm really happy you're here. For a number of reasons. 0:01:33.840 --> 0:01:35.720 I'm sorry I had to go through this, So Jason, 0:01:35.800 --> 0:01:40.800 before all this happened and your life was turned really 0:01:40.840 --> 0:01:44.880 into a living hell for fifteen and a half years, 0:01:45.600 --> 0:01:48.840 how is your life? You grew up in Illinois right now. 0:01:48.960 --> 0:01:52.560 Actually, I spent most of my life in Texas. I 0:01:52.600 --> 0:01:54.640 was born in Arizona. I lived in Texas most of 0:01:54.680 --> 0:01:58.360 my life, and I moved to Illinois to try to well, 0:01:58.360 --> 0:02:01.440 actually moved to Wisconsin first with my grandparents to try 0:02:01.480 --> 0:02:03.280 to get a different start because I was kind of 0:02:03.280 --> 0:02:07.720 on a bad road doing drugs, drinking, acting up. So 0:02:07.840 --> 0:02:10.640 eventually I moved to Illinois and with some friends and 0:02:10.639 --> 0:02:13.080 then I got my own place there. But I mean 0:02:13.160 --> 0:02:16.120 I never really did change. I still kind of lived 0:02:16.120 --> 0:02:17.679 like a rock star, you know. I was working in 0:02:17.880 --> 0:02:21.079 an adult bookstore, did a lot of drinking and partying 0:02:21.120 --> 0:02:24.440 and drugs. But I mean, at the end of the day, 0:02:24.440 --> 0:02:26.160 I was still a good person. I mean, I wasn't, 0:02:26.240 --> 0:02:28.600 you know, robbing people. I wasn't killing people. I wasn't 0:02:28.960 --> 0:02:31.400 you knowing any gangs or doing anything ridiculous. 0:02:31.480 --> 0:02:34.120 You weren't hurting anybod other than yourself exactly exactly. 0:02:34.280 --> 0:02:35.960 But I mean I was, you know, living in the 0:02:35.960 --> 0:02:37.880 fast life and I wasn't thinking about it, you know. 0:02:38.000 --> 0:02:40.560 So it's just one of those things that some people 0:02:40.560 --> 0:02:42.560 do that when they're young, you know, and I was 0:02:42.600 --> 0:02:44.560 living like a rock star, but I wasn't a rock star. 0:02:44.760 --> 0:02:47.840 But that being said, so you're you're you're hanging around 0:02:47.960 --> 0:02:49.720 trying to figure it out. How old were you at 0:02:49.720 --> 0:02:53.760 this time, twenty four twenty four, so yeah, so you're 0:02:53.800 --> 0:02:56.360 getting you know. I mean, it's funny because I think 0:02:56.400 --> 0:02:58.280 a lot of people in their mid twenties start to 0:02:58.320 --> 0:03:00.400 figure out what it is that they're really doing. I know, 0:03:00.480 --> 0:03:03.480 for me, it's true. That's when I sobered up and started, 0:03:03.639 --> 0:03:07.160 you know, trying to really build my life up instead 0:03:07.200 --> 0:03:07.560 of down. 0:03:07.800 --> 0:03:09.920 Well, before I got locked up. So I got locked 0:03:09.960 --> 0:03:13.160 up in December of ninety nine. Before that happened, I mean, 0:03:13.400 --> 0:03:16.240 I was trying to think about what do I want 0:03:16.280 --> 0:03:18.320 to do? You know. I was considering going back to 0:03:18.360 --> 0:03:21.520 school and pursuing something in the world of art. You know, 0:03:21.560 --> 0:03:24.160 I didn't really know exactly what, but I mean, I 0:03:24.200 --> 0:03:27.320 wanted to do something with art. I've always been creative, 0:03:27.560 --> 0:03:31.200 so but I never got that opportunity. It was taken 0:03:31.240 --> 0:03:32.880 from me by the fact that I got arrested for 0:03:32.919 --> 0:03:33.360 this crime. 0:03:33.840 --> 0:03:37.080 And that's a crazy story. I mean, it was your misfortune. 0:03:37.120 --> 0:03:38.520 You didn't know it at the time, but you were 0:03:38.520 --> 0:03:41.320 living in a county that turns out to have the 0:03:41.400 --> 0:03:44.160 highest number of wrongful convictions in Illinois, which is one 0:03:44.200 --> 0:03:46.480 of the states that has the highest number of wrongful convictions. 0:03:46.920 --> 0:03:49.960 But other than Chicago, this area that you lived in 0:03:50.080 --> 0:03:53.840 was a bad spot. It was a hotbed for police 0:03:53.840 --> 0:03:58.280 misconduct and wrongful convictions as a result. So there you 0:03:58.360 --> 0:04:02.440 are knocking around trying to figure it out, you know, 0:04:02.560 --> 0:04:07.320 having your party in times, whatever you're doing, and this 0:04:07.400 --> 0:04:08.240 comes out of the blue. 0:04:08.520 --> 0:04:12.600 All right. Yeah, it was December twentieth. I was hanging 0:04:12.680 --> 0:04:15.800 out with my girlfriend and her friend, you know, we 0:04:15.840 --> 0:04:18.200 were smoking a ball, having a few beers, and I 0:04:18.200 --> 0:04:20.839 get a knock at the door, thinking it's my buddy 0:04:20.880 --> 0:04:23.200 just coming over to hang out. Open a door. It's 0:04:23.240 --> 0:04:25.960 a bunch of cops standing there with guns drawn. They 0:04:26.040 --> 0:04:27.920 pushed into my room, throw me down on my bed, 0:04:27.960 --> 0:04:31.119 handcuffed me, and the nightmare began. 0:04:31.600 --> 0:04:33.520 Did they tell you what they were arresting you for? 0:04:34.440 --> 0:04:37.160 No, But I had a clue because they had been 0:04:37.200 --> 0:04:40.279 around earlier that day asking people if they seen anything. 0:04:40.400 --> 0:04:42.320 Or knew anything. So, I mean I had a little 0:04:42.360 --> 0:04:44.279 bit of a clue, but it still threw me because 0:04:44.279 --> 0:04:45.840 I mean, I had nothing to do with this crime. 0:04:45.880 --> 0:04:48.520 So I didn't understand why this was happening. I was confused. 0:04:48.560 --> 0:04:49.160 I was scared. 0:04:49.440 --> 0:04:51.280 But when you say they were asking did you see 0:04:51.279 --> 0:04:54.000 anything to do anything about? What? Was it a specific 0:04:54.080 --> 0:04:55.440 crime that they were asking about. 0:04:56.040 --> 0:04:59.120 Yeah, they had discovered a Jane Doe's body in the 0:04:59.240 --> 0:05:02.880 Lake County four Preserve and so on December ninth, this 0:05:02.960 --> 0:05:07.040 body was found and apparently she had been badly beaten 0:05:07.160 --> 0:05:10.200 and tortured and you know, suffered a really bad death 0:05:11.200 --> 0:05:14.560 and blunt forced trauma was the cause of death. And 0:05:14.920 --> 0:05:20.160 that was on December ninth. Around December fourteenth, there was 0:05:20.200 --> 0:05:23.760 a prostitute sting in the area where I lived. I 0:05:23.800 --> 0:05:25.520 lived next door to the bookstore that I worked at 0:05:25.600 --> 0:05:28.240 the at the bookstore, so I had thought that, you know, 0:05:28.279 --> 0:05:30.080 this woman was a prostitute, and I told her, you know, 0:05:30.120 --> 0:05:32.280 you can't be doing this around here. You know, I 0:05:32.320 --> 0:05:34.120 don't want to have to call the cops on you know, 0:05:34.200 --> 0:05:36.440 just go back to your room and keep it cool. 0:05:37.240 --> 0:05:40.400 And later on I came out and she was still 0:05:40.440 --> 0:05:42.800 doing that, and that's when I first met Jeremy Tweety, 0:05:43.000 --> 0:05:47.520 who would later become my co defendant. So that night 0:05:47.720 --> 0:05:49.200 I walked up to him, I said, Hey, how long 0:05:49.240 --> 0:05:51.320 has this woman been out here? Do you know? He said, 0:05:51.360 --> 0:05:52.960 She's been out there a while. She looks like she 0:05:53.040 --> 0:05:55.720 was crying, So I thought maybe she had a pimp 0:05:55.800 --> 0:05:58.320 or something that was forcing her to do this. So 0:05:58.440 --> 0:06:00.680 I struck up a conversation with her, asking if there 0:06:00.680 --> 0:06:03.560 was anything I could do to help whatever, because I 0:06:03.600 --> 0:06:05.280 didn't want to have this going on and I didn't 0:06:05.279 --> 0:06:07.839 want to see her hurt either. And we talked for 0:06:07.839 --> 0:06:10.479 a little while, I mean even to the extent that 0:06:10.480 --> 0:06:12.400 we asked about her kids and you know, why didn't 0:06:12.400 --> 0:06:15.839 she find a better line of work, etc. And I 0:06:15.880 --> 0:06:18.719 eventually went in to my dinner and her and Jeremy 0:06:18.760 --> 0:06:22.000 tweet He had this conversation that later turns out he 0:06:22.120 --> 0:06:25.800 apparently allegedly said something to her about, you know, you 0:06:25.839 --> 0:06:27.839 shouldn't be around here because there was a woman that 0:06:27.920 --> 0:06:31.120 was killed here recently, and a bunch of people had 0:06:31.279 --> 0:06:32.880 beat on her and threw her in a van and 0:06:32.880 --> 0:06:37.040 got rid of her, and they use that as an 0:06:37.480 --> 0:06:40.280 reason to come and arrest him, and then he said 0:06:40.279 --> 0:06:42.480 that it was me. Now why did he say it 0:06:42.520 --> 0:06:47.040 was me? So the cop that arrested him, somehow or 0:06:47.080 --> 0:06:50.440 another claims that this was an accident, but that his 0:06:50.560 --> 0:06:52.440 hand got crushed in the car door on the way 0:06:52.440 --> 0:06:55.240 to the police station, and next thing you know, he's 0:06:55.279 --> 0:06:58.360 fingering me for the crime. Years later, when he recants, 0:06:58.440 --> 0:07:00.799 he says that it was because the cops only wanted 0:07:00.800 --> 0:07:04.000 to talk about me since the moment he stepped into 0:07:04.040 --> 0:07:05.960 the room. They kept saying, what did Jason Strong do 0:07:06.000 --> 0:07:08.560 with this crime? What do you know about Jason Strong's 0:07:08.560 --> 0:07:11.040 involvement in this crime? And they just kept mentioning me 0:07:11.160 --> 0:07:13.400 over and over and over to the point where he 0:07:13.480 --> 0:07:16.600 got the gist of it. They wanted me. So he 0:07:17.200 --> 0:07:20.240 said that I did it. He saw it happen, and 0:07:20.240 --> 0:07:22.200 then they came and arrested me. They came and arrested 0:07:22.200 --> 0:07:23.400 my friend Jason Johnson. 0:07:23.880 --> 0:07:26.400 Wait, what's the thing with the hand in the car door? 0:07:26.400 --> 0:07:27.160 How does that fit into this? 0:07:27.760 --> 0:07:30.600 I think it's I think they intimidated him by injuring him. 0:07:30.680 --> 0:07:32.800 I can't prove that, but I mean, I think it's 0:07:32.880 --> 0:07:34.760 kind of odd that his hand was slammed in the 0:07:34.800 --> 0:07:37.000 police car door on a way to the police station, 0:07:37.400 --> 0:07:40.160 and then next thing you know, he's singing these lives 0:07:40.200 --> 0:07:42.680 for them. Well, there's a second part to this that 0:07:42.840 --> 0:07:45.920 I can't prove this, but this is my opinion on 0:07:45.960 --> 0:07:49.760 the matter. Is the officer that brought him in actually 0:07:49.800 --> 0:07:53.160 had it in for me. So prior to all this happening, 0:07:54.200 --> 0:07:57.000 this cop had been coming around the bookstore in harassing 0:07:57.080 --> 0:07:59.640 me for a couple months and I don't even know 0:07:59.680 --> 0:08:03.040 why he ever started doing that, but he did. And 0:08:03.080 --> 0:08:04.680 he wanted me to be a snitch. He wanted me 0:08:04.720 --> 0:08:07.120 to tell him about drug dealers and different things. I'm like, man, 0:08:07.120 --> 0:08:09.080 I don't know nothing. I don't know nothing about no 0:08:09.160 --> 0:08:12.480 drug dealers. And he told me if I did not 0:08:12.560 --> 0:08:15.600 cooperate with him, he wouldn't make my life a living hell. 0:08:15.800 --> 0:08:18.200 A few short weeks later, I'm locked up for a 0:08:18.280 --> 0:08:21.679 murder I didn't commit. And he was the initiating officer 0:08:21.680 --> 0:08:24.200 that arrested the guy who had become my co defendant, 0:08:24.200 --> 0:08:25.760 who I didn't even know on the night in question. 0:08:26.640 --> 0:08:29.280 That's a lot of coincidences, exactly, I mean. 0:08:29.320 --> 0:08:31.280 But I can't prove that he did anything. 0:08:31.360 --> 0:08:36.559 You were a victim of some really terrible misdeeds by 0:08:36.600 --> 0:08:38.840 the people that were supposed to protect you and everybody 0:08:38.840 --> 0:08:41.120 else in the community, and that's quite the opposite of 0:08:41.160 --> 0:08:44.400 what they did. So it's pretty clear why Tweety would 0:08:44.400 --> 0:08:46.760 have implicated you, because he would have implicated his as 0:08:46.760 --> 0:08:48.839 his grandmother if he had to to make them stop 0:08:48.840 --> 0:08:50.679 doing whatever it was they were doing to him, right, right, 0:08:50.800 --> 0:08:54.200 And he implicated himself as well. Right, But he wasn't 0:08:54.240 --> 0:08:55.160 involved the crime either. 0:08:55.559 --> 0:08:55.719 No. 0:08:56.000 --> 0:08:59.000 In fact, he turned out to be actually quite a character. 0:08:59.080 --> 0:09:03.040 He's a bit of a pathological liar. Before my trial, 0:09:03.160 --> 0:09:05.800 I think he had like six or seven different versions 0:09:05.840 --> 0:09:09.200 of what happened that night, constantly changing, and to the 0:09:09.200 --> 0:09:11.640 point where at my trial he came up with a 0:09:11.679 --> 0:09:14.199 new version of events that were different from all the 0:09:14.240 --> 0:09:17.160 earlier ones. So he would always make changes, and he 0:09:17.320 --> 0:09:19.800 just did this for years. He stuck to his lie 0:09:19.800 --> 0:09:23.280 for years. But I think it's it all started because 0:09:23.280 --> 0:09:25.200 of that one cop. I can't prove it. That's just 0:09:25.240 --> 0:09:28.480 my theory, but part of it is going off of 0:09:28.520 --> 0:09:31.079 also what he told me years later when he recanted 0:09:31.160 --> 0:09:34.040 Jeremy Tweety about how that's all they wanted to talk 0:09:34.040 --> 0:09:36.079 about was me, And I'm like, well, Why would they 0:09:36.080 --> 0:09:39.200 be so focused on me? Why me of all the 0:09:39.240 --> 0:09:40.640 people that they could have thought about. 0:09:41.280 --> 0:09:45.320 Well, I mean it sounds like this one officer, you know, 0:09:45.480 --> 0:09:47.240 had just sort of figured you were going to be 0:09:47.240 --> 0:09:49.200 a good source of information because you were in sort 0:09:49.200 --> 0:09:52.439 of a CD area and a CD business, right, and 0:09:52.600 --> 0:09:54.480 he had it at his head you must have known stuff, 0:09:54.520 --> 0:09:56.280 and he felt like you were holding out on him, 0:09:56.600 --> 0:10:00.640 so he decided to exact his revenge. This insane story 0:10:00.640 --> 0:10:04.600 of yours ultimately ends up with you being held in 0:10:04.679 --> 0:10:09.079 jail for quite a long time, pending trial, and ultimately 0:10:09.120 --> 0:10:11.720 going to trial. What was that process like? Did you 0:10:11.800 --> 0:10:13.120 have decent representation? 0:10:13.840 --> 0:10:18.280 Yeah? I did not have good representation. I had public defenders. 0:10:18.720 --> 0:10:20.719 I actually I asked my family over and over to 0:10:20.760 --> 0:10:22.439 give me a lawyer. I knew I needed a real 0:10:22.520 --> 0:10:25.760 lawyer because these guys just they weren't going to cut it. 0:10:25.920 --> 0:10:29.240 They didn't listen to me. They had their own view 0:10:29.280 --> 0:10:30.960 on things. But I didn't know what a lot of 0:10:30.960 --> 0:10:32.720 my rights were at that time either, and how I 0:10:32.720 --> 0:10:37.040 could make changes in anything. But we went to trial 0:10:37.679 --> 0:10:41.079 with them basically handed me over to the jury. They 0:10:41.120 --> 0:10:44.199 went in and said that my coerced false confession was 0:10:44.240 --> 0:10:47.800 actually true, and that I didn't do the crime, but 0:10:47.920 --> 0:10:50.880 I was there when it happened. That was their defense 0:10:50.920 --> 0:10:52.800 for me, And I was like, well, that's ridiculous. I 0:10:52.800 --> 0:10:56.199 didn't do any of this, but that was their strategy, 0:10:56.280 --> 0:10:59.160 if you will. They basically handed me over. They screwed 0:10:59.200 --> 0:11:02.160 me for the prosecution. So you had no chance. 0:11:02.360 --> 0:11:04.560 You're literally sitting there watching yourself drown. 0:11:04.800 --> 0:11:06.679 Right So when a time came for me to take 0:11:06.679 --> 0:11:08.320 the stand, I couldn't take the stand. I would have 0:11:08.320 --> 0:11:10.199 gone against every single thing they already said. 0:11:10.800 --> 0:11:11.440 That's unreal. 0:11:12.120 --> 0:11:14.520 They were looking for the easiest route. Rather than to 0:11:14.679 --> 0:11:17.120 try to fight my case and prove my innisence, they 0:11:17.160 --> 0:11:19.400 took the easiest option for themselves. 0:11:29.840 --> 0:11:33.800 It's a very bizarre set of circumstances when you have 0:11:34.080 --> 0:11:39.760 your advocate actually working against you and you're I mean, 0:11:39.800 --> 0:11:42.520 I can't imagine. You're in this crazy vortex. You've already 0:11:42.559 --> 0:11:45.560 been through hell, You've been sitting in jail for you 0:11:45.600 --> 0:11:47.440 know how long are you in jail for? Uh? 0:11:47.679 --> 0:11:51.000 So? I The trial I believe was in October of 0:11:51.080 --> 0:11:54.200 two thousand and so almost a year by that point. 0:11:54.120 --> 0:11:57.040 Right, So you're already dizzy from this experience. I mean 0:11:57.080 --> 0:11:59.600 anybody would be. And now you're in this crazy cortex. 0:12:00.080 --> 0:12:04.400 You've got these these adults not even underrepresenting you, but 0:12:04.440 --> 0:12:07.959 actually working against your best interest for whatever their twisted 0:12:08.000 --> 0:12:11.040 motives were. Did you know, like, when the jury went out, 0:12:11.280 --> 0:12:12.559 did you know you were fucked? 0:12:13.040 --> 0:12:14.840 I had a good feeling that, yeah, that was going 0:12:14.920 --> 0:12:16.400 to be the case. I mean I still had a 0:12:16.440 --> 0:12:19.400 tiny bit of hope, you know, that maybe they would 0:12:19.400 --> 0:12:21.720 figure something out. But no, I kind of had a 0:12:21.720 --> 0:12:22.640 feeling I was screwed. 0:12:22.679 --> 0:12:24.720 I mean from the sound of it. I mean even 0:12:24.760 --> 0:12:26.480 I thought I was on the jury in my case 0:12:26.559 --> 0:12:29.520 at all. I really mean, unless they had just some 0:12:29.640 --> 0:12:31.000 weird intuition. 0:12:31.160 --> 0:12:33.320 If I was on my jury, I would have convicted me. 0:12:33.400 --> 0:12:34.400 That's a strong statement. 0:12:34.600 --> 0:12:37.559 Yeah, I mean, at the end of the day, there 0:12:37.640 --> 0:12:39.559 was nothing put forth to defend me and to prove 0:12:39.600 --> 0:12:40.160 my innocence. 0:12:40.480 --> 0:12:43.199 No, so there you go. So yeah, so you It's 0:12:43.240 --> 0:12:45.360 interesting because a lot of the exgnaries that have been 0:12:45.360 --> 0:12:48.080 on the show had held out hope until the very end, 0:12:48.200 --> 0:12:52.360 But your circumstance is relatively unique. I mean, even with 0:12:52.480 --> 0:12:54.960 some of the stories we've heard of incompetent defense, how 0:12:55.000 --> 0:12:55.840 long did they deliberate. 0:12:56.440 --> 0:12:59.880 Oh, it wasn't very long at all, maybe a couple hours. 0:12:59.640 --> 0:13:02.200 Right, Who know that they were probably having lunch. I mean, 0:13:02.240 --> 0:13:04.240 who knows what they were doing for two whole hours. 0:13:04.679 --> 0:13:05.880 I mean, I don't even know if it was that long. 0:13:05.960 --> 0:13:07.640 That's how it felt in my head as I was 0:13:07.640 --> 0:13:08.400 sitting in a cell. 0:13:08.640 --> 0:13:12.720 Then the moment came, right, which can you describe that horrible, 0:13:12.840 --> 0:13:16.000 horrible moment when you're basically you must have thought your 0:13:16.040 --> 0:13:16.640 life was over. 0:13:17.000 --> 0:13:20.560 Yeah? I uh, that was probably the loneliest day of 0:13:20.559 --> 0:13:26.280 my life. Having to hear those people say that I 0:13:26.320 --> 0:13:28.040 was guilty of a crime that I did not commit, 0:13:28.320 --> 0:13:31.280 and not just once, but the judge made each individual 0:13:31.320 --> 0:13:34.200 one say they're verdict. So I had to hear it 0:13:34.240 --> 0:13:37.000 over and over again, and then hear my family break 0:13:37.040 --> 0:13:38.680 down behind me and not be able to do anything 0:13:38.679 --> 0:13:43.040 about it. I can't describe the crushing weight that was. 0:13:44.200 --> 0:13:46.440 How did you? How did you deal with it? How'd 0:13:46.440 --> 0:13:48.160 you come out of it? How'd you get here? I 0:13:48.240 --> 0:13:54.280 am actually in awe of the fortitude that you have. 0:13:54.880 --> 0:13:56.920 How did you do it? If you can even put it. 0:13:56.880 --> 0:13:59.680 Into work, yeah I think I can't. I mean, so 0:14:00.720 --> 0:14:03.640 after that, after that, moment. I mean, I wanted to 0:14:03.679 --> 0:14:06.120 die like I've never wanted to die before. It was 0:14:06.160 --> 0:14:09.240 it was terrible. And after we left the courtroom, I 0:14:09.280 --> 0:14:11.320 asked the officer if he could take me to a 0:14:11.440 --> 0:14:15.080 private solitary cell just so I could, you know, just 0:14:15.120 --> 0:14:19.160 break down and decompress. And once I put myself back 0:14:19.160 --> 0:14:22.600 together and I went back to the general population, I 0:14:22.680 --> 0:14:25.280 just started doing a lot of thinking and I was angry. 0:14:25.360 --> 0:14:27.400 I was confused. I didn't know what my next move 0:14:27.480 --> 0:14:30.560 was going to be. But I decided to adopt this 0:14:30.640 --> 0:14:35.560 kind of militaristic mentality, and I turned everything into a 0:14:35.680 --> 0:14:40.640 war against the state of Illinois. And I studied Sun 0:14:40.720 --> 0:14:44.320 Sue and Julius Caesar and tried to, you know, incorporate 0:14:44.360 --> 0:14:47.000 these this thinking of how to fight a war. But 0:14:47.080 --> 0:14:49.440 I was doing it in the courtroom. The courtrooms were 0:14:49.480 --> 0:14:51.880 my battlefields. So I mean I kind of took on 0:14:51.920 --> 0:14:53.000 that mentality. 0:14:53.440 --> 0:14:55.640 Did you have any help, Did you have an appellate 0:14:55.760 --> 0:14:57.680 lawyer assigned to you or anything like that? 0:14:57.840 --> 0:15:02.840 Yeah? We, uh so, after I lost, we hired an attorney, Jededstone, 0:15:03.000 --> 0:15:06.800 and he did a post trial motion and then he 0:15:06.800 --> 0:15:11.120 helped me through my first appeals. But those didn't pan out. 0:15:11.200 --> 0:15:14.080 So when we lost him and we couldn't afford him anymore, 0:15:14.720 --> 0:15:17.600 I became my own attorney and I did it my way, 0:15:18.440 --> 0:15:21.160 and I threw every single thing I could think about him. 0:15:21.160 --> 0:15:24.400 I filed my post conviction petition on my own, which 0:15:24.480 --> 0:15:27.720 was like seventy something pages long, and I threw every 0:15:27.760 --> 0:15:29.840 single thing I could think of that was wrong with 0:15:29.880 --> 0:15:33.840 my case at that courtroom. You know, I battled it 0:15:33.960 --> 0:15:36.800 on my own for a while. I got an appellat 0:15:36.800 --> 0:15:39.760 attorney appointed to me at one point, and all he 0:15:39.800 --> 0:15:42.920 did was basically drag things out. But for the most part, 0:15:43.000 --> 0:15:47.080 I fought myself until I got Northwestern to get involved 0:15:47.560 --> 0:15:49.480 and that but that was years and years later. 0:15:49.800 --> 0:15:53.640 And then talk about that Northwestern Northwestern, Yeah, because I mean, 0:15:53.840 --> 0:15:56.360 first of all, one of the best schools in the country, right, 0:15:56.640 --> 0:15:58.680 and they do amazing work. 0:15:59.040 --> 0:16:01.360 Absolutely they do. Yeah, I would not be free if 0:16:01.360 --> 0:16:04.520 it wasn't for them. So I was in the federal court. 0:16:04.560 --> 0:16:07.600 I was following a a federal habeas corpus all on 0:16:07.640 --> 0:16:11.520 my own, and there was a procedural issue that came up. Well, 0:16:11.600 --> 0:16:13.840 let me back up. Before that, I had already been 0:16:13.840 --> 0:16:16.360 trying to reach out to innocence projects for years. I've 0:16:16.400 --> 0:16:18.840 been writing them letters and you know, having my family 0:16:18.880 --> 0:16:21.880 make phone calls. And I had been in touch with 0:16:22.360 --> 0:16:26.600 Jane Railey at Northwestern and wed you know, been kind 0:16:26.600 --> 0:16:28.800 of back and forth and everything, but she couldn't take 0:16:28.800 --> 0:16:31.560 on the case at the time, but we still communicated. 0:16:32.080 --> 0:16:34.440 So when I got to a federal court, I don't 0:16:34.480 --> 0:16:37.680 know if Judge Kennelly saw something in my case or what, 0:16:38.680 --> 0:16:42.360 but he called Thomas Garrity, the director of the clinic 0:16:42.440 --> 0:16:46.000 at Northwestern, personally and asked him to look at my case. 0:16:46.760 --> 0:16:49.280 And it was just for a procedural issue, but once 0:16:49.360 --> 0:16:52.120 Tom looked at everything, he realized there was more to it, 0:16:52.760 --> 0:16:55.880 and Northwestern decided to take my case on full. All 0:16:55.920 --> 0:16:59.080 the way that team grew over the years, you know, 0:16:59.080 --> 0:17:03.160 because they have students, and three of the students graduated 0:17:03.480 --> 0:17:05.600 went on to big law firms and brought their law 0:17:05.600 --> 0:17:10.120 firms in. So I had Northwestern, Winston and Strawn and 0:17:10.240 --> 0:17:13.920 Kat and Much and rosamund all supporting my fight. Well. 0:17:14.160 --> 0:17:16.480 So you, I mean, at least in terms of your 0:17:16.600 --> 0:17:19.800 legal representation, you really went from the bottom to the top. 0:17:19.920 --> 0:17:20.520 Absolutely. 0:17:20.800 --> 0:17:22.480 I mean, you went from guys who sold you down 0:17:22.560 --> 0:17:26.359 the river to like an army, a legal army. And 0:17:26.720 --> 0:17:30.000 by the way, that happened for a very specific reason, 0:17:30.040 --> 0:17:34.399 which is that you found something that very few people 0:17:34.800 --> 0:17:37.679 could find in your situation. I don't know where you 0:17:37.760 --> 0:17:41.720 got it from, but either but where I think a 0:17:41.800 --> 0:17:44.159 normal person would have curled up in a corner and 0:17:44.240 --> 0:17:48.600 collapsed or you know, done, calmed themselves like you talked 0:17:48.600 --> 0:17:52.920 about doing or whatever. You didn't stop, and you maintained 0:17:52.960 --> 0:17:55.520 faith in the system even though the system had totally 0:17:55.600 --> 0:17:58.040 let you down and turned on you, you know, which 0:17:58.080 --> 0:18:00.440 is remarkable. I keep coming back to that. And then 0:18:00.560 --> 0:18:05.480 as a result, you end up with this powerhouse or 0:18:05.520 --> 0:18:09.040 sort of a power trio of advocates, right, the two 0:18:09.080 --> 0:18:12.320 law firms plus the innisers project at Northwestern, which you know, 0:18:12.400 --> 0:18:17.040 as I said, the reputation's amazing. So then things are 0:18:17.080 --> 0:18:19.000 turning in your direction. But you've been in now for 0:18:19.359 --> 0:18:20.120 quite some time. 0:18:20.440 --> 0:18:22.880 So around the time they took over, I had been 0:18:22.880 --> 0:18:25.720 in about seven and a half eight years. It was 0:18:25.760 --> 0:18:28.840 shortly after we learned about the identity of the victim, 0:18:29.200 --> 0:18:30.960 So yeah, it was I've been in there for quite 0:18:31.000 --> 0:18:34.119 a while. And it still was another eight years after 0:18:34.160 --> 0:18:35.600 that before I was free. 0:18:36.040 --> 0:18:38.840 Did you have any clue who might have done something 0:18:38.920 --> 0:18:39.199 like this? 0:18:39.960 --> 0:18:43.000 No, we do now, we do now, but here So 0:18:43.200 --> 0:18:46.159 for many many years, I actually thought Jeremy Tweety was 0:18:46.200 --> 0:18:48.600 the guy because he was so quick to make up 0:18:48.600 --> 0:18:51.560 all these lies about me and to you know, help 0:18:51.640 --> 0:18:53.960 himself out, that I thought, well, I didn't even know 0:18:54.040 --> 0:18:56.760 this guy. Maybe he's the one that did it, and 0:18:56.800 --> 0:19:00.240 that's why he's so adamant about lying against me. Is 0:19:00.280 --> 0:19:03.800 he's trying to protect himself somehow. He was my main 0:19:03.840 --> 0:19:08.240 suspect for many many years. It wasn't until we identified 0:19:08.280 --> 0:19:12.280 the victim, which was seven years after I was arrested, 0:19:12.760 --> 0:19:15.479 that we finally figured out who the victim was. It 0:19:15.520 --> 0:19:18.320 wasn't until then that we started to develop an understanding 0:19:18.400 --> 0:19:20.280 of what might have really happened to her and who 0:19:20.840 --> 0:19:23.639 the real perpetrators were. There was actually three people that 0:19:23.680 --> 0:19:26.560 we suspect being involved, which is ironic considering that three 0:19:26.560 --> 0:19:28.240 people were originally arrested. 0:19:28.520 --> 0:19:30.800 Right you, Tweety and Jason Johnson, Right. 0:19:30.960 --> 0:19:32.480 But I was the only one that was ever charged 0:19:32.520 --> 0:19:35.359 with murder. They were charged with a consument of a 0:19:35.359 --> 0:19:38.840 homicide and Tweety's was dropped to obstruction for testifying against me. 0:19:39.480 --> 0:19:43.400