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Speaker 1: America has two point two million people in prison. If

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Speaker 1: just one percent is wrong, that's twenty two thousand people.

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Speaker 1: That's a lot of people's lives destroyed.

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Speaker 2: If the system want to take you out of society,

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Speaker 2: they will do it no matter what laws they have

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Speaker 2: to break, saying that they are enforcing the laws, but

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Speaker 2: they're breaking the lord.

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Speaker 1: Having to hear those people say that I was guilty

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Speaker 1: of a crime that I did not commit, and then

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Speaker 1: hear my family break down behind me and not be

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Speaker 1: able to do anything about it. I can't describe the

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Speaker 1: crushing weight that was.

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Speaker 3: I'm not anti police, I'm just anti corruption.

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Speaker 2: A lot of times we look and we see something

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Speaker 2: happen to somebody, and that's the first thing we said,

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Speaker 2: that could never happen to me, But.

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Speaker 1: They can.

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Speaker 3: This is wrongful conviction. Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction with

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Speaker 3: Jason Flaum. This is the opening episode of season five,

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Speaker 3: and I'm absolutely honored to have today's guest Jason Strong. Jason,

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Speaker 3: welcome to the show.

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Speaker 1: Thank you very much. I appreciate you having me on.

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Speaker 1: I'm honored to be here.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm really happy you're here. For a number of reasons.

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Speaker 3: I'm sorry I had to go through this, So Jason,

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Speaker 3: before all this happened and your life was turned really

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Speaker 3: into a living hell for fifteen and a half years,

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Speaker 3: how is your life? You grew up in Illinois right now.

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Speaker 1: Actually, I spent most of my life in Texas. I

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Speaker 1: was born in Arizona. I lived in Texas most of

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Speaker 1: my life, and I moved to Illinois to try to well,

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Speaker 1: actually moved to Wisconsin first with my grandparents to try

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Speaker 1: to get a different start because I was kind of

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Speaker 1: on a bad road doing drugs, drinking, acting up. So

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Speaker 1: eventually I moved to Illinois and with some friends and

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Speaker 1: then I got my own place there. But I mean

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Speaker 1: I never really did change. I still kind of lived

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Speaker 1: like a rock star, you know. I was working in

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Speaker 1: an adult bookstore, did a lot of drinking and partying

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Speaker 1: and drugs. But I mean, at the end of the day,

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Speaker 1: I was still a good person. I mean, I wasn't,

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Speaker 1: you know, robbing people. I wasn't killing people. I wasn't

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Speaker 1: you knowing any gangs or doing anything ridiculous.

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Speaker 3: You weren't hurting anybod other than yourself exactly exactly.

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Speaker 1: But I mean I was, you know, living in the

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Speaker 1: fast life and I wasn't thinking about it, you know.

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Speaker 1: So it's just one of those things that some people

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Speaker 1: do that when they're young, you know, and I was

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Speaker 1: living like a rock star, but I wasn't a rock star.

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Speaker 3: But that being said, so you're you're you're hanging around

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Speaker 3: trying to figure it out. How old were you at

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Speaker 3: this time, twenty four twenty four, so yeah, so you're

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Speaker 3: getting you know. I mean, it's funny because I think

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Speaker 3: a lot of people in their mid twenties start to

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Speaker 3: figure out what it is that they're really doing. I know,

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Speaker 3: for me, it's true. That's when I sobered up and started,

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Speaker 3: you know, trying to really build my life up instead

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Speaker 3: of down.

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Speaker 1: Well, before I got locked up. So I got locked

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Speaker 1: up in December of ninety nine. Before that happened, I mean,

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Speaker 1: I was trying to think about what do I want

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Speaker 1: to do? You know. I was considering going back to

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Speaker 1: school and pursuing something in the world of art. You know,

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Speaker 1: I didn't really know exactly what, but I mean, I

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Speaker 1: wanted to do something with art. I've always been creative,

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Speaker 1: so but I never got that opportunity. It was taken

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Speaker 1: from me by the fact that I got arrested for

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Speaker 1: this crime.

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Speaker 3: And that's a crazy story. I mean, it was your misfortune.

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Speaker 3: You didn't know it at the time, but you were

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Speaker 3: living in a county that turns out to have the

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Speaker 3: highest number of wrongful convictions in Illinois, which is one

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Speaker 3: of the states that has the highest number of wrongful convictions.

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Speaker 3: But other than Chicago, this area that you lived in

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Speaker 3: was a bad spot. It was a hotbed for police

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Speaker 3: misconduct and wrongful convictions as a result. So there you

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Speaker 3: are knocking around trying to figure it out, you know,

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Speaker 3: having your party in times, whatever you're doing, and this

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Speaker 3: comes out of the blue.

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Speaker 1: All right. Yeah, it was December twentieth. I was hanging

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Speaker 1: out with my girlfriend and her friend, you know, we

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Speaker 1: were smoking a ball, having a few beers, and I

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Speaker 1: get a knock at the door, thinking it's my buddy

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Speaker 1: just coming over to hang out. Open a door. It's

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Speaker 1: a bunch of cops standing there with guns drawn. They

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Speaker 1: pushed into my room, throw me down on my bed,

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Speaker 1: handcuffed me, and the nightmare began.

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Speaker 3: Did they tell you what they were arresting you for?

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Speaker 1: No, But I had a clue because they had been

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Speaker 1: around earlier that day asking people if they seen anything.

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Speaker 1: Or knew anything. So, I mean I had a little

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Speaker 1: bit of a clue, but it still threw me because

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Speaker 1: I mean, I had nothing to do with this crime.

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Speaker 1: So I didn't understand why this was happening. I was confused.

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Speaker 1: I was scared.

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Speaker 3: But when you say they were asking did you see

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Speaker 3: anything to do anything about? What? Was it a specific

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Speaker 3: crime that they were asking about.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, they had discovered a Jane Doe's body in the

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Speaker 1: Lake County four Preserve and so on December ninth, this

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Speaker 1: body was found and apparently she had been badly beaten

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Speaker 1: and tortured and you know, suffered a really bad death

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Speaker 1: and blunt forced trauma was the cause of death. And

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Speaker 1: that was on December ninth. Around December fourteenth, there was

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Speaker 1: a prostitute sting in the area where I lived. I

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Speaker 1: lived next door to the bookstore that I worked at

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Speaker 1: the at the bookstore, so I had thought that, you know,

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Speaker 1: this woman was a prostitute, and I told her, you know,

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Speaker 1: you can't be doing this around here. You know, I

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Speaker 1: don't want to have to call the cops on you know,

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Speaker 1: just go back to your room and keep it cool.

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Speaker 1: And later on I came out and she was still

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Speaker 1: doing that, and that's when I first met Jeremy Tweety,

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Speaker 1: who would later become my co defendant. So that night

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Speaker 1: I walked up to him, I said, Hey, how long

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Speaker 1: has this woman been out here? Do you know? He said,

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Speaker 1: She's been out there a while. She looks like she

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Speaker 1: was crying, So I thought maybe she had a pimp

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Speaker 1: or something that was forcing her to do this. So

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Speaker 1: I struck up a conversation with her, asking if there

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Speaker 1: was anything I could do to help whatever, because I

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Speaker 1: didn't want to have this going on and I didn't

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Speaker 1: want to see her hurt either. And we talked for

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Speaker 1: a little while, I mean even to the extent that

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Speaker 1: we asked about her kids and you know, why didn't

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Speaker 1: she find a better line of work, etc. And I

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Speaker 1: eventually went in to my dinner and her and Jeremy

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Speaker 1: tweet He had this conversation that later turns out he

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Speaker 1: apparently allegedly said something to her about, you know, you

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Speaker 1: shouldn't be around here because there was a woman that

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Speaker 1: was killed here recently, and a bunch of people had

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Speaker 1: beat on her and threw her in a van and

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Speaker 1: got rid of her, and they use that as an

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Speaker 1: reason to come and arrest him, and then he said

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Speaker 1: that it was me. Now why did he say it

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Speaker 1: was me? So the cop that arrested him, somehow or

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Speaker 1: another claims that this was an accident, but that his

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Speaker 1: hand got crushed in the car door on the way

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Speaker 1: to the police station, and next thing you know, he's

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Speaker 1: fingering me for the crime. Years later, when he recants,

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Speaker 1: he says that it was because the cops only wanted

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Speaker 1: to talk about me since the moment he stepped into

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Speaker 1: the room. They kept saying, what did Jason Strong do

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Speaker 1: with this crime? What do you know about Jason Strong's

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Speaker 1: involvement in this crime? And they just kept mentioning me

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Speaker 1: over and over and over to the point where he

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Speaker 1: got the gist of it. They wanted me. So he

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Speaker 1: said that I did it. He saw it happen, and

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Speaker 1: then they came and arrested me. They came and arrested

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Speaker 1: my friend Jason Johnson.

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Speaker 3: Wait, what's the thing with the hand in the car door?

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Speaker 3: How does that fit into this?

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Speaker 1: I think it's I think they intimidated him by injuring him.

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Speaker 1: I can't prove that, but I mean, I think it's

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Speaker 1: kind of odd that his hand was slammed in the

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Speaker 1: police car door on a way to the police station,

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Speaker 1: and then next thing you know, he's singing these lives

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Speaker 1: for them. Well, there's a second part to this that

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Speaker 1: I can't prove this, but this is my opinion on

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Speaker 1: the matter. Is the officer that brought him in actually

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Speaker 1: had it in for me. So prior to all this happening,

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Speaker 1: this cop had been coming around the bookstore in harassing

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Speaker 1: me for a couple months and I don't even know

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Speaker 1: why he ever started doing that, but he did. And

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Speaker 1: he wanted me to be a snitch. He wanted me

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Speaker 1: to tell him about drug dealers and different things. I'm like, man,

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Speaker 1: I don't know nothing. I don't know nothing about no

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Speaker 1: drug dealers. And he told me if I did not

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Speaker 1: cooperate with him, he wouldn't make my life a living hell.

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Speaker 1: A few short weeks later, I'm locked up for a

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Speaker 1: murder I didn't commit. And he was the initiating officer

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Speaker 1: that arrested the guy who had become my co defendant,

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Speaker 1: who I didn't even know on the night in question.

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Speaker 3: That's a lot of coincidences, exactly, I mean.

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Speaker 1: But I can't prove that he did anything.

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Speaker 3: You were a victim of some really terrible misdeeds by

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Speaker 3: the people that were supposed to protect you and everybody

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Speaker 3: else in the community, and that's quite the opposite of

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Speaker 3: what they did. So it's pretty clear why Tweety would

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Speaker 3: have implicated you, because he would have implicated his as

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Speaker 3: his grandmother if he had to to make them stop

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Speaker 3: doing whatever it was they were doing to him, right, right,

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Speaker 3: And he implicated himself as well. Right, But he wasn't

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Speaker 3: involved the crime either.

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Speaker 2: No.

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Speaker 1: In fact, he turned out to be actually quite a character.

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Speaker 1: He's a bit of a pathological liar. Before my trial,

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Speaker 1: I think he had like six or seven different versions

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Speaker 1: of what happened that night, constantly changing, and to the

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Speaker 1: point where at my trial he came up with a

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Speaker 1: new version of events that were different from all the

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Speaker 1: earlier ones. So he would always make changes, and he

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Speaker 1: just did this for years. He stuck to his lie

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Speaker 1: for years. But I think it's it all started because

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Speaker 1: of that one cop. I can't prove it. That's just

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Speaker 1: my theory, but part of it is going off of

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Speaker 1: also what he told me years later when he recanted

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Speaker 1: Jeremy Tweety about how that's all they wanted to talk

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Speaker 1: about was me, And I'm like, well, Why would they

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Speaker 1: be so focused on me? Why me of all the

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Speaker 1: people that they could have thought about.

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Speaker 3: Well, I mean it sounds like this one officer, you know,

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Speaker 3: had just sort of figured you were going to be

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Speaker 3: a good source of information because you were in sort

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Speaker 3: of a CD area and a CD business, right, and

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Speaker 3: he had it at his head you must have known stuff,

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Speaker 3: and he felt like you were holding out on him,

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Speaker 3: so he decided to exact his revenge. This insane story

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Speaker 3: of yours ultimately ends up with you being held in

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Speaker 3: jail for quite a long time, pending trial, and ultimately

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Speaker 3: going to trial. What was that process like? Did you

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Speaker 3: have decent representation?

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Speaker 1: Yeah? I did not have good representation. I had public defenders.

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Speaker 1: I actually I asked my family over and over to

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Speaker 1: give me a lawyer. I knew I needed a real

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Speaker 1: lawyer because these guys just they weren't going to cut it.

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Speaker 1: They didn't listen to me. They had their own view

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Speaker 1: on things. But I didn't know what a lot of

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Speaker 1: my rights were at that time either, and how I

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Speaker 1: could make changes in anything. But we went to trial

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Speaker 1: with them basically handed me over to the jury. They

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Speaker 1: went in and said that my coerced false confession was

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Speaker 1: actually true, and that I didn't do the crime, but

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Speaker 1: I was there when it happened. That was their defense

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Speaker 1: for me, And I was like, well, that's ridiculous. I

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Speaker 1: didn't do any of this, but that was their strategy,

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Speaker 1: if you will. They basically handed me over. They screwed

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Speaker 1: me for the prosecution. So you had no chance.

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Speaker 3: You're literally sitting there watching yourself drown.

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Speaker 1: Right So when a time came for me to take

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Speaker 1: the stand, I couldn't take the stand. I would have

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Speaker 1: gone against every single thing they already said.

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Speaker 3: That's unreal.

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Speaker 1: They were looking for the easiest route. Rather than to

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Speaker 1: try to fight my case and prove my innisence, they

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Speaker 1: took the easiest option for themselves.

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Speaker 3: It's a very bizarre set of circumstances when you have

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Speaker 3: your advocate actually working against you and you're I mean,

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Speaker 3: I can't imagine. You're in this crazy vortex. You've already

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Speaker 3: been through hell, You've been sitting in jail for you

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Speaker 3: know how long are you in jail for? Uh?

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Speaker 1: So? I The trial I believe was in October of

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Speaker 1: two thousand and so almost a year by that point.

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Speaker 3: Right, So you're already dizzy from this experience. I mean

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Speaker 3: anybody would be. And now you're in this crazy cortex.

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Speaker 3: You've got these these adults not even underrepresenting you, but

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Speaker 3: actually working against your best interest for whatever their twisted

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Speaker 3: motives were. Did you know, like, when the jury went out,

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Speaker 3: did you know you were fucked?

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Speaker 1: I had a good feeling that, yeah, that was going

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Speaker 1: to be the case. I mean I still had a

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Speaker 1: tiny bit of hope, you know, that maybe they would

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Speaker 1: figure something out. But no, I kind of had a

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Speaker 1: feeling I was screwed.

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Speaker 3: I mean from the sound of it. I mean even

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Speaker 3: I thought I was on the jury in my case

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Speaker 3: at all. I really mean, unless they had just some

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Speaker 3: weird intuition.

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Speaker 1: If I was on my jury, I would have convicted me.

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Speaker 3: That's a strong statement.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, at the end of the day, there

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Speaker 1: was nothing put forth to defend me and to prove

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Speaker 1: my innocence.

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Speaker 3: No, so there you go. So yeah, so you It's

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Speaker 3: interesting because a lot of the exgnaries that have been

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Speaker 3: on the show had held out hope until the very end,

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Speaker 3: But your circumstance is relatively unique. I mean, even with

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Speaker 3: some of the stories we've heard of incompetent defense, how

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Speaker 3: long did they deliberate.

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Speaker 1: Oh, it wasn't very long at all, maybe a couple hours.

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Speaker 3: Right, Who know that they were probably having lunch. I mean,

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Speaker 3: who knows what they were doing for two whole hours.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I don't even know if it was that long.

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Speaker 1: That's how it felt in my head as I was

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Speaker 1: sitting in a cell.

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Speaker 3: Then the moment came, right, which can you describe that horrible,

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Speaker 3: horrible moment when you're basically you must have thought your

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Speaker 3: life was over.

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Speaker 1: Yeah? I uh, that was probably the loneliest day of

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Speaker 1: my life. Having to hear those people say that I

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Speaker 1: was guilty of a crime that I did not commit,

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Speaker 1: and not just once, but the judge made each individual

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Speaker 1: one say they're verdict. So I had to hear it

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Speaker 1: over and over again, and then hear my family break

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Speaker 1: down behind me and not be able to do anything

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Speaker 1: about it. I can't describe the crushing weight that was.

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Speaker 3: How did you? How did you deal with it? How'd

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Speaker 3: you come out of it? How'd you get here? I

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Speaker 3: am actually in awe of the fortitude that you have.

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Speaker 3: How did you do it? If you can even put it.

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Speaker 1: Into work, yeah I think I can't. I mean, so

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Speaker 1: after that, after that, moment. I mean, I wanted to

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Speaker 1: die like I've never wanted to die before. It was

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Speaker 1: it was terrible. And after we left the courtroom, I

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Speaker 1: asked the officer if he could take me to a

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Speaker 1: private solitary cell just so I could, you know, just

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Speaker 1: break down and decompress. And once I put myself back

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Speaker 1: together and I went back to the general population, I

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Speaker 1: just started doing a lot of thinking and I was angry.

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Speaker 1: I was confused. I didn't know what my next move

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Speaker 1: was going to be. But I decided to adopt this

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Speaker 1: kind of militaristic mentality, and I turned everything into a

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Speaker 1: war against the state of Illinois. And I studied Sun

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Speaker 1: Sue and Julius Caesar and tried to, you know, incorporate

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Speaker 1: these this thinking of how to fight a war. But

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Speaker 1: I was doing it in the courtroom. The courtrooms were

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Speaker 1: my battlefields. So I mean I kind of took on

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Speaker 1: that mentality.

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Speaker 3: Did you have any help, Did you have an appellate

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Speaker 3: lawyer assigned to you or anything like that?

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Speaker 1: Yeah? We, uh so, after I lost, we hired an attorney, Jededstone,

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Speaker 1: and he did a post trial motion and then he

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Speaker 1: helped me through my first appeals. But those didn't pan out.

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Speaker 1: So when we lost him and we couldn't afford him anymore,

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Speaker 1: I became my own attorney and I did it my way,

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Speaker 1: and I threw every single thing I could think about him.

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Speaker 1: I filed my post conviction petition on my own, which

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Speaker 1: was like seventy something pages long, and I threw every

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Speaker 1: single thing I could think of that was wrong with

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Speaker 1: my case at that courtroom. You know, I battled it

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Speaker 1: on my own for a while. I got an appellat

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Speaker 1: attorney appointed to me at one point, and all he

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Speaker 1: did was basically drag things out. But for the most part,

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Speaker 1: I fought myself until I got Northwestern to get involved

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Speaker 1: and that but that was years and years later.

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Speaker 3: And then talk about that Northwestern Northwestern, Yeah, because I mean,

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Speaker 3: first of all, one of the best schools in the country, right,

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Speaker 3: and they do amazing work.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely they do. Yeah, I would not be free if

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Speaker 1: it wasn't for them. So I was in the federal court.

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Speaker 1: I was following a a federal habeas corpus all on

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Speaker 1: my own, and there was a procedural issue that came up. Well,

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Speaker 1: let me back up. Before that, I had already been

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Speaker 1: trying to reach out to innocence projects for years. I've

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Speaker 1: been writing them letters and you know, having my family

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Speaker 1: make phone calls. And I had been in touch with

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Speaker 1: Jane Railey at Northwestern and wed you know, been kind

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Speaker 1: of back and forth and everything, but she couldn't take

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Speaker 1: on the case at the time, but we still communicated.

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Speaker 1: So when I got to a federal court, I don't

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Speaker 1: know if Judge Kennelly saw something in my case or what,

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Speaker 1: but he called Thomas Garrity, the director of the clinic

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Speaker 1: at Northwestern, personally and asked him to look at my case.

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Speaker 1: And it was just for a procedural issue, but once

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Speaker 1: Tom looked at everything, he realized there was more to it,

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Speaker 1: and Northwestern decided to take my case on full. All

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Speaker 1: the way that team grew over the years, you know,

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Speaker 1: because they have students, and three of the students graduated

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Speaker 1: went on to big law firms and brought their law

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Speaker 1: firms in. So I had Northwestern, Winston and Strawn and

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Speaker 1: Kat and Much and rosamund all supporting my fight. Well.

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Speaker 3: So you, I mean, at least in terms of your

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Speaker 3: legal representation, you really went from the bottom to the top.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely.

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Speaker 3: I mean, you went from guys who sold you down

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Speaker 3: the river to like an army, a legal army. And

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Speaker 3: by the way, that happened for a very specific reason,

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Speaker 3: which is that you found something that very few people

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Speaker 3: could find in your situation. I don't know where you

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Speaker 3: got it from, but either but where I think a

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Speaker 3: normal person would have curled up in a corner and

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Speaker 3: collapsed or you know, done, calmed themselves like you talked

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Speaker 3: about doing or whatever. You didn't stop, and you maintained

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Speaker 3: faith in the system even though the system had totally

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Speaker 3: let you down and turned on you, you know, which

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Speaker 3: is remarkable. I keep coming back to that. And then

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Speaker 3: as a result, you end up with this powerhouse or

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Speaker 3: sort of a power trio of advocates, right, the two

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Speaker 3: law firms plus the innisers project at Northwestern, which you know,

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Speaker 3: as I said, the reputation's amazing. So then things are

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Speaker 3: turning in your direction. But you've been in now for

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Speaker 3: quite some time.

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Speaker 1: So around the time they took over, I had been

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Speaker 1: in about seven and a half eight years. It was

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Speaker 1: shortly after we learned about the identity of the victim,

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Speaker 1: So yeah, it was I've been in there for quite

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Speaker 1: a while. And it still was another eight years after

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Speaker 1: that before I was free.

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Speaker 3: Did you have any clue who might have done something

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Speaker 3: like this?

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Speaker 1: No, we do now, we do now, but here So

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Speaker 1: for many many years, I actually thought Jeremy Tweety was

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Speaker 1: the guy because he was so quick to make up

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Speaker 1: all these lies about me and to you know, help

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Speaker 1: himself out, that I thought, well, I didn't even know

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Speaker 1: this guy. Maybe he's the one that did it, and

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Speaker 1: that's why he's so adamant about lying against me. Is

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Speaker 1: he's trying to protect himself somehow. He was my main

389
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Speaker 1: suspect for many many years. It wasn't until we identified

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Speaker 1: the victim, which was seven years after I was arrested,

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Speaker 1: that we finally figured out who the victim was. It

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Speaker 1: wasn't until then that we started to develop an understanding

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Speaker 1: of what might have really happened to her and who

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Speaker 1: the real perpetrators were. There was actually three people that

395
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Speaker 1: we suspect being involved, which is ironic considering that three

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Speaker 1: people were originally arrested.

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Speaker 3: Right you, Tweety and Jason Johnson, Right.

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Speaker 1: But I was the only one that was ever charged

399
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Speaker 1: with murder. They were charged with a consument of a

400
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Speaker 1: homicide and Tweety's was dropped to obstruction for testifying against me.

401
00:19:39,480 --> 00:19:43,400
Speaker 1: But we discovered that there was three individuals, a mother

402
00:19:43,520 --> 00:19:47,640
Speaker 1: daughter team that had been their grifters. They basically took

403
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Speaker 1: advantage of elderly people, handicapped people, mentally disabled people and

404
00:19:52,440 --> 00:19:56,960
Speaker 1: extorted them for their money, and they somehow came into

405
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Speaker 1: a power thing with the victory them in this case,

406
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Speaker 1: who we later discovered was Mary Kate Sunderland, a mentally

407
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Speaker 1: disabled woman, and they took over her life. They kept

408
00:20:07,080 --> 00:20:10,760
Speaker 1: her from her family. They apparently, from what we understand,

409
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Speaker 1: sold her to this mentally deranged individual who they also extorted.

410
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Speaker 1: They convinced this guy to have his own arm chopped

411
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Speaker 1: off by a railroad track train, you know, a train

412
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Speaker 1: going across the road tracks. Ensued the state of Illinois.

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Speaker 3: Wow, I mean, let's just go. I mean, that's a

414
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Speaker 3: lot to it. I got a lot, right, right, that's insane.

415
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Speaker 1: It's just one of many twists to this case. I mean,

416
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Speaker 1: it's it really is a crazy case, a crazy story.

417
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Speaker 1: But so yeah, they Gonzalo Chimizo is this guy's name.

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Speaker 1: He's really mentally insane. He's in an institution today. They

419
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Speaker 1: convinced him to lay on some tracks. From what I understand,

420
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Speaker 1: what my attorneys told me to lay on some tracks

421
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Speaker 1: and a train ran over his arm and cut his

422
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Speaker 1: arm off. And in money he got from that, he

423
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Speaker 1: gave to them because they sold the victim to him,

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Speaker 1: and then over a certain amount of time, they you know,

425
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Speaker 1: starved her, beat her, tortured her, and extorted money out

426
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Speaker 1: of her. So they did this for this long period

427
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Speaker 1: of time. The last thing that the victim's family ever

428
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Speaker 1: heard from their loved one was that they don't want

429
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Speaker 1: me to talk to you. It was these people they

430
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Speaker 1: were keeping her for this long period of time. And

431
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Speaker 1: knowing this, learning this helped us unravel the case because

432
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Speaker 1: the whole theory of the state when they convicted us

433
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Speaker 1: was that me, Jason Johnson and Jeremy Tweety picked this

434
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Speaker 1: random girl up off the streets, took her to my room,

435
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Speaker 1: and we tortured her and killed her in one night,

436
00:21:37,880 --> 00:21:41,360
Speaker 1: dumped the body. And you know, they had all these,

437
00:21:41,640 --> 00:21:44,520
Speaker 1: you know, different theories on what evidence was there, Like

438
00:21:44,560 --> 00:21:47,200
Speaker 1: they said the body was burned by molten wax and

439
00:21:47,240 --> 00:21:51,240
Speaker 1: all this. And years later after we started to put

440
00:21:51,240 --> 00:21:53,879
Speaker 1: all the pieces together and found these alternative suspects and

441
00:21:53,880 --> 00:21:57,560
Speaker 1: we were in the federal courts the Attorney General's office

442
00:21:57,880 --> 00:22:01,560
Speaker 1: and the new Lake County attorney who came in with

443
00:22:01,640 --> 00:22:03,560
Speaker 1: the idea that he wants to find the truth in

444
00:22:03,600 --> 00:22:07,080
Speaker 1: all these cases. They decided to reach out to my

445
00:22:07,119 --> 00:22:11,480
Speaker 1: attorneys and say, let's reinvestigate this case. So we did

446
00:22:11,520 --> 00:22:15,480
Speaker 1: that and what we discovered. We had some independent forensic

447
00:22:15,520 --> 00:22:18,760
Speaker 1: pathologists come in, three independent pathologists, and they all came

448
00:22:18,800 --> 00:22:23,000
Speaker 1: to the same conclusion that this person was actually dead

449
00:22:24,280 --> 00:22:27,560
Speaker 1: probably four to five days prior to when they found

450
00:22:27,600 --> 00:22:30,520
Speaker 1: the body, not the date before.

451
00:22:30,840 --> 00:22:32,560
Speaker 3: And I'm glad you brought that up because that's a

452
00:22:32,640 --> 00:22:34,960
Speaker 3: really interesting part of this case and it explains why

453
00:22:34,960 --> 00:22:37,840
Speaker 3: it was so hard to identify her as well, right right, absolutely,

454
00:22:37,920 --> 00:22:40,920
Speaker 3: because she had obviously decomposed to a significant degree by

455
00:22:40,920 --> 00:22:41,240
Speaker 3: that time.

456
00:22:41,320 --> 00:22:43,280
Speaker 1: Well it was more than I mean, part of the

457
00:22:43,280 --> 00:22:46,520
Speaker 1: reason she was unidentified was just a lack of police work,

458
00:22:46,560 --> 00:22:50,199
Speaker 1: I believe because they had dental records that they just

459
00:22:50,240 --> 00:22:52,199
Speaker 1: didn't follow through with things, and once they had what

460
00:22:52,240 --> 00:22:54,960
Speaker 1: they wanted, they didn't follow through with investigating these things.

461
00:22:55,520 --> 00:22:58,159
Speaker 1: I mean, how can you not identify the person from

462
00:22:58,560 --> 00:23:01,639
Speaker 1: a few counties over when there's a missing person report

463
00:23:01,680 --> 00:23:04,680
Speaker 1: on that person? How do you not make that connection?

464
00:23:05,240 --> 00:23:07,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's not like she was from you know.

465
00:23:08,119 --> 00:23:11,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, she wasn't from California or you know, Nebraska or

466
00:23:11,320 --> 00:23:16,240
Speaker 1: something to Caracas.

467
00:23:19,520 --> 00:23:21,359
Speaker 3: You know. One of the things that helped lead to

468
00:23:21,400 --> 00:23:25,400
Speaker 3: your exoneration was the fact that new experts were brought in,

469
00:23:25,760 --> 00:23:28,560
Speaker 3: were actual experts. And I'm glad we're touching on this, Jason,

470
00:23:28,600 --> 00:23:33,480
Speaker 3: because we know that junk science, bad forensics are a

471
00:23:33,560 --> 00:23:36,720
Speaker 3: major cause of wrong conviction, and in your case, it

472
00:23:36,760 --> 00:23:38,800
Speaker 3: was a different kind of junk science, which is that

473
00:23:38,840 --> 00:23:41,880
Speaker 3: you had an examiner America examiner or something like that,

474
00:23:42,560 --> 00:23:45,080
Speaker 3: who testified saying that the body had been found within

475
00:23:45,840 --> 00:23:46,800
Speaker 3: a short period of time.

476
00:23:46,840 --> 00:23:49,200
Speaker 1: Right, right, She was found on the ninth December ninth

477
00:23:49,200 --> 00:23:52,320
Speaker 1: and ninety nine. They theorized that on the eighth is

478
00:23:52,359 --> 00:23:54,879
Speaker 1: the night that we partied with her and tortured her

479
00:23:54,960 --> 00:23:58,840
Speaker 1: and killed her. And he goes on to say that

480
00:23:58,880 --> 00:24:01,719
Speaker 1: we poured molt wax on her and she was burned

481
00:24:02,400 --> 00:24:06,760
Speaker 1: and all this different stuff. But years later, when we

482
00:24:06,800 --> 00:24:09,760
Speaker 1: got these new independent forensic pathologists to look at it,

483
00:24:09,840 --> 00:24:12,720
Speaker 1: all of that was wrong. All of it. One. She

484
00:24:12,960 --> 00:24:16,400
Speaker 1: was dead at least four days prior to the night

485
00:24:16,440 --> 00:24:19,800
Speaker 1: they found her, but it went even beyond that and

486
00:24:19,840 --> 00:24:22,520
Speaker 1: to the fact that her injuries were in different stages

487
00:24:22,560 --> 00:24:27,200
Speaker 1: of healing, that she has tortured for a long period

488
00:24:27,240 --> 00:24:30,840
Speaker 1: of time, weeks, if not months, So this wasn't something

489
00:24:30,880 --> 00:24:35,960
Speaker 1: that happened in one night. And further, the information about

490
00:24:36,080 --> 00:24:39,359
Speaker 1: molten liquid and wax being poured on her and she

491
00:24:39,480 --> 00:24:43,280
Speaker 1: was burned was wrong. They said that all that discoloration

492
00:24:43,480 --> 00:24:45,800
Speaker 1: and all the sloughing of the skin and everything that

493
00:24:45,840 --> 00:24:51,760
Speaker 1: this medical examiner said was evidence of that was actually decomposition.

494
00:24:52,840 --> 00:24:55,040
Speaker 1: There was no burns, There was none of that. He

495
00:24:55,160 --> 00:24:59,400
Speaker 1: was wrong. And I learned during my civil suit from

496
00:24:59,400 --> 00:25:02,159
Speaker 1: my at turn. He's telling me that he actually doesn't

497
00:25:02,160 --> 00:25:06,440
Speaker 1: even have a medical license from any American medical schools.

498
00:25:06,680 --> 00:25:10,680
Speaker 1: He got it from some Dominican Republic school that was

499
00:25:10,720 --> 00:25:15,159
Speaker 1: shut down for different reasons of being fraudulent or not

500
00:25:15,280 --> 00:25:17,159
Speaker 1: up to par or whatever. So he didn't even have

501
00:25:17,200 --> 00:25:18,679
Speaker 1: he didn't even go to medical school in here in

502
00:25:18,680 --> 00:25:19,240
Speaker 1: his country.

503
00:25:20,040 --> 00:25:22,119
Speaker 3: Well, he went to a non medical school in a

504
00:25:22,160 --> 00:25:25,400
Speaker 3: foreign country. Yeah, so he basically was just the yats,

505
00:25:25,640 --> 00:25:26,200
Speaker 3: like a totally.

506
00:25:26,400 --> 00:25:28,919
Speaker 1: I mean, that's the way my attorney's explained it to me.

507
00:25:29,080 --> 00:25:32,960
Speaker 3: So, oh, it gets deeper and deeper. I mean, these

508
00:25:32,960 --> 00:25:38,199
Speaker 3: things are always so troubling to me because especially in

509
00:25:38,240 --> 00:25:40,680
Speaker 3: a case like this, where you have a young innocent

510
00:25:40,800 --> 00:25:43,160
Speaker 3: woman who had her life in front of her, who

511
00:25:43,280 --> 00:25:47,040
Speaker 3: is taken out and brutally beaten, maybe beaten to death,

512
00:25:48,119 --> 00:25:51,960
Speaker 3: dumped in the forest like trash, and you know, one

513
00:25:51,960 --> 00:25:55,919
Speaker 3: would think and one would hope that the people in

514
00:25:56,000 --> 00:25:59,360
Speaker 3: positions of power would really want to find the right

515
00:25:59,400 --> 00:26:01,800
Speaker 3: guy to make sure this didn't happen, even if it's

516
00:26:01,800 --> 00:26:04,240
Speaker 3: for selfish reasons, Jason, Right, even if it's just like

517
00:26:04,520 --> 00:26:06,399
Speaker 3: there's a small community you lived in, right.

518
00:26:06,520 --> 00:26:08,080
Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, it wasn't a big town, right.

519
00:26:08,119 --> 00:26:11,480
Speaker 3: I always try to rationalize this, but I can't because

520
00:26:11,960 --> 00:26:14,320
Speaker 3: you have all the people that are involved in this,

521
00:26:14,359 --> 00:26:16,240
Speaker 3: and it was usually more than one, right, It takes

522
00:26:16,240 --> 00:26:18,520
Speaker 3: more than one to sort of, you know, create this

523
00:26:18,640 --> 00:26:20,720
Speaker 3: narrative and then convicted this in person like yourself or

524
00:26:20,720 --> 00:26:25,480
Speaker 3: in this case three. The actual killer, who was a sick,

525
00:26:25,680 --> 00:26:31,560
Speaker 3: depraved individual, by any stretch of the imagination, is free,

526
00:26:31,880 --> 00:26:34,280
Speaker 3: stayed free, right once they convicted you, once they even

527
00:26:34,359 --> 00:26:37,439
Speaker 3: arrested you, they stopped looking for him, and whoever he was,

528
00:26:38,320 --> 00:26:40,800
Speaker 3: he was free to prey on anyone in the community

529
00:26:40,840 --> 00:26:43,240
Speaker 3: that he wanted to and that could have been you know,

530
00:26:43,280 --> 00:26:45,560
Speaker 3: one of these people, somebody that was loved by one

531
00:26:45,560 --> 00:26:48,639
Speaker 3: of these officers, or people in the prosecutor's office or

532
00:26:48,640 --> 00:26:53,520
Speaker 3: anything else. So even in the situation where we all

533
00:26:53,560 --> 00:26:56,960
Speaker 3: find it hard to understand how someone could have the

534
00:26:57,480 --> 00:27:01,439
Speaker 3: lack of soul or or whatever it is, or just

535
00:27:01,640 --> 00:27:06,800
Speaker 3: the total breakdown that allows them to feel comfortable locking

536
00:27:06,880 --> 00:27:08,840
Speaker 3: up someone who they knew was innocent, or more than

537
00:27:08,920 --> 00:27:11,520
Speaker 3: one person in this case. They would want to keep

538
00:27:11,520 --> 00:27:13,560
Speaker 3: their family in their community safe, but they didn't. That

539
00:27:14,119 --> 00:27:16,000
Speaker 3: goes out the window in these cases. They get this

540
00:27:16,040 --> 00:27:17,919
Speaker 3: tunnel vision like they did in your case, and they

541
00:27:18,000 --> 00:27:18,640
Speaker 3: just go for it.

542
00:27:18,760 --> 00:27:20,480
Speaker 1: I think a lot of that, there's a lot there

543
00:27:20,560 --> 00:27:22,200
Speaker 1: by the way that you just said, but I think

544
00:27:22,240 --> 00:27:25,119
Speaker 1: a lot of that is systemic. There's a systemic problem,

545
00:27:25,480 --> 00:27:28,200
Speaker 1: especially in places like you know, Illinois, you know, Cook

546
00:27:28,240 --> 00:27:31,119
Speaker 1: County is probably the worst where this has been going

547
00:27:31,160 --> 00:27:35,119
Speaker 1: on for so many generations that these cops just follow

548
00:27:35,119 --> 00:27:37,600
Speaker 1: in the same footsteps of all their predecessors. I mean,

549
00:27:37,640 --> 00:27:40,240
Speaker 1: you probably follow this back to the days of al Capone.

550
00:27:40,680 --> 00:27:43,160
Speaker 1: I mean, you've got governors in Illinois that are in jail,

551
00:27:43,440 --> 00:27:46,920
Speaker 1: most of them, right, I mean it's a systemic problem

552
00:27:47,000 --> 00:27:48,880
Speaker 1: that's been going on for a long time. And if

553
00:27:49,240 --> 00:27:52,040
Speaker 1: new police officers coming into the to the force don't

554
00:27:52,080 --> 00:27:55,600
Speaker 1: see good examples to follow, then they're going to follow

555
00:27:55,640 --> 00:27:58,320
Speaker 1: the bad examples that they see. And that's what has

556
00:27:58,359 --> 00:28:00,919
Speaker 1: gone on for so long that that's all they know

557
00:28:00,960 --> 00:28:02,359
Speaker 1: how to do. I'm not going to say all of

558
00:28:02,400 --> 00:28:05,560
Speaker 1: them are bad, because they're not, of course, but there

559
00:28:05,160 --> 00:28:08,080
Speaker 1: a few bad apples can corrupt all of them because

560
00:28:08,119 --> 00:28:10,040
Speaker 1: nobody wants to be the guy that says, hey, that

561
00:28:10,080 --> 00:28:13,200
Speaker 1: CoP's not doing his job right, because then they're curpuco right,

562
00:28:13,600 --> 00:28:16,119
Speaker 1: and nobody wants to be that. So it becomes that

563
00:28:16,480 --> 00:28:19,199
Speaker 1: this big problem that you can't get away from. And

564
00:28:19,280 --> 00:28:20,880
Speaker 1: I don't know what the answer is to fix.

565
00:28:20,680 --> 00:28:24,679
Speaker 3: It, if there's anything that stands out. And obviously it

566
00:28:24,760 --> 00:28:28,800
Speaker 3: was a miserable fifteen and a half years. But one

567
00:28:28,800 --> 00:28:32,119
Speaker 3: thing I'm curious about is was there a worst moment

568
00:28:32,280 --> 00:28:34,600
Speaker 3: in all that time in prison? And was there one

569
00:28:34,680 --> 00:28:37,240
Speaker 3: moment that actually you remember and brings you a smile.

570
00:28:39,600 --> 00:28:42,840
Speaker 1: Well, as far as prison goes, the worst moment would

571
00:28:42,880 --> 00:28:46,720
Speaker 1: probably be the ride to prison. It was the most

572
00:28:46,800 --> 00:28:50,280
Speaker 1: terrifying I could ever imagine. I mean, You're an innocent

573
00:28:50,360 --> 00:28:53,840
Speaker 1: man on a bus going to a place where you

574
00:28:54,000 --> 00:28:57,600
Speaker 1: know that everybody there is hardened criminals. Well most people

575
00:28:57,680 --> 00:29:00,200
Speaker 1: there is hardened criminals. It's a maximum security prison. And

576
00:29:00,560 --> 00:29:02,680
Speaker 1: all I could think about is am I going to

577
00:29:02,680 --> 00:29:04,240
Speaker 1: be raped? Am I going to be murdered? Am I

578
00:29:04,240 --> 00:29:07,200
Speaker 1: going to be forced to kill somebody to survive? What

579
00:29:07,400 --> 00:29:10,360
Speaker 1: is my life going to become? I didn't know what

580
00:29:10,440 --> 00:29:13,360
Speaker 1: to expect. I was terrified, but I didn't show it. I,

581
00:29:14,000 --> 00:29:16,680
Speaker 1: you know, stood tall, stood my ground and did what

582
00:29:16,720 --> 00:29:19,440
Speaker 1: I had to do. And I met a lot of

583
00:29:19,440 --> 00:29:22,480
Speaker 1: good people and showed myself to be a stand up guy.

584
00:29:22,520 --> 00:29:24,560
Speaker 1: And I got by. I survived.

585
00:29:24,600 --> 00:29:27,880
Speaker 3: It. Was there a moment that you can remember besides

586
00:29:28,000 --> 00:29:30,120
Speaker 3: obviously the moment when the guard came to tell you

587
00:29:30,160 --> 00:29:31,920
Speaker 3: that you were free, or even when your lawyer told

588
00:29:31,920 --> 00:29:33,360
Speaker 3: you that you were going to be getting out in

589
00:29:33,360 --> 00:29:35,440
Speaker 3: a few days. Was there any other moment that stands

590
00:29:35,480 --> 00:29:37,920
Speaker 3: out that you had a moment of humanity or grace

591
00:29:38,080 --> 00:29:41,600
Speaker 3: or you know, something kind that somebody did, or you know,

592
00:29:41,680 --> 00:29:42,240
Speaker 3: anything like that.

593
00:29:42,880 --> 00:29:45,840
Speaker 1: You know, I mean probably a lot of small things,

594
00:29:45,840 --> 00:29:48,400
Speaker 1: but I can't think of nothing like really really major

595
00:29:48,880 --> 00:29:51,239
Speaker 1: other than you know, every time my family would come

596
00:29:51,240 --> 00:29:54,840
Speaker 1: to see me. That was my my big moments, you know.

597
00:29:55,600 --> 00:29:58,600
Speaker 1: I mean, for the most part, it was just day

598
00:29:58,680 --> 00:30:01,480
Speaker 1: to day stuff was all the same, you know. It's

599
00:30:01,520 --> 00:30:03,400
Speaker 1: the monotony of it kind of gets to you. So

600
00:30:04,080 --> 00:30:07,440
Speaker 1: it's all the same stuff over and over. I found

601
00:30:07,520 --> 00:30:10,440
Speaker 1: joy in the fact that I had some really good friends. Yeah,

602
00:30:10,560 --> 00:30:12,480
Speaker 1: I met some really great people. I mean, one of

603
00:30:12,520 --> 00:30:15,520
Speaker 1: which is like a brother to me. I gotta also say, man,

604
00:30:15,560 --> 00:30:17,720
Speaker 1: did a lot of I owe a lot of credit

605
00:30:17,720 --> 00:30:20,040
Speaker 1: to my mom and my grandmother and my family. You know,

606
00:30:20,160 --> 00:30:23,040
Speaker 1: they they were a source of strength for me as well.

607
00:30:23,400 --> 00:30:26,000
Speaker 3: All these years ago. Vibes, you spent seven and a

608
00:30:26,040 --> 00:30:30,239
Speaker 3: half years fighting a lonely battle by yourself, and then

609
00:30:30,280 --> 00:30:33,360
Speaker 3: you've got another seven and a half eight years with

610
00:30:33,480 --> 00:30:37,920
Speaker 3: the cavalry, right, right, and then ultimately we know what

611
00:30:38,040 --> 00:30:42,280
Speaker 3: happened because you're sitting here, and how did that come down?

612
00:30:42,360 --> 00:30:45,560
Speaker 3: What was the moment when you first knew, like you

613
00:30:45,600 --> 00:30:48,000
Speaker 3: knew you were fucked when you were in the courtroom, right,

614
00:30:48,240 --> 00:30:50,880
Speaker 3: What was the moment when you knew that you were unfucked?

615
00:30:51,560 --> 00:30:56,160
Speaker 1: Oh? Wow, that's I mean, there's a couple different areas

616
00:30:56,160 --> 00:30:59,040
Speaker 1: where I started to feel hope. But I'd say the

617
00:30:59,080 --> 00:31:01,520
Speaker 1: moment when I knew things were probably gonna work out

618
00:31:01,680 --> 00:31:05,680
Speaker 1: was about a few days before I was released. My

619
00:31:05,760 --> 00:31:08,600
Speaker 1: attorney called me and said that they were expecting to

620
00:31:08,640 --> 00:31:11,080
Speaker 1: have a meeting with you know, the state's attorney and

621
00:31:11,120 --> 00:31:14,680
Speaker 1: the Attorney General in Connelly's office that was the judge,

622
00:31:15,400 --> 00:31:17,800
Speaker 1: and that they expected a release to be signed, that

623
00:31:17,840 --> 00:31:20,760
Speaker 1: they were going to vacate my conviction. And it actually

624
00:31:20,760 --> 00:31:23,240
Speaker 1: came sooner than they expected. I was surprised. I was

625
00:31:23,320 --> 00:31:26,200
Speaker 1: kind of already packing and planning, hoping that this was

626
00:31:26,200 --> 00:31:28,719
Speaker 1: going to play out the way they thought. And I

627
00:31:28,800 --> 00:31:31,000
Speaker 1: was taking it easy, you know, taking a break and

628
00:31:31,040 --> 00:31:34,479
Speaker 1: watching a movie. An officer comes by the cell and says, Strong,

629
00:31:34,480 --> 00:31:37,040
Speaker 1: what are you doing? Pack of shit? Man, You're getting

630
00:31:37,040 --> 00:31:39,280
Speaker 1: out of here. I'm like, what, what the fuck are

631
00:31:39,280 --> 00:31:41,400
Speaker 1: you talking about? And I wasn't expecting it for you know,

632
00:31:41,480 --> 00:31:43,920
Speaker 1: another day or two, and it just threw me.

633
00:31:43,920 --> 00:31:44,000
Speaker 3: Man.

634
00:31:44,080 --> 00:31:46,680
Speaker 1: I jumped down. I'm like packing all my shit as

635
00:31:46,720 --> 00:31:49,280
Speaker 1: fast as I can. You know, all my guys are

636
00:31:49,320 --> 00:31:52,200
Speaker 1: happy for me. People are, you know, clapping wishing me well.

637
00:31:52,600 --> 00:31:54,239
Speaker 1: The people that want in the cells were coming up

638
00:31:54,240 --> 00:31:56,160
Speaker 1: giving me hugs. It was just it was a very

639
00:31:57,200 --> 00:32:01,560
Speaker 1: just crazy, but you know, wonderful feeling. You know. Of

640
00:32:01,600 --> 00:32:03,400
Speaker 1: course I had to wait for my mom to drive

641
00:32:03,480 --> 00:32:05,800
Speaker 1: up and pick me up, and my attorneys were there.

642
00:32:06,720 --> 00:32:09,880
Speaker 1: But when I walked out, I was so overwhelmed that

643
00:32:09,920 --> 00:32:15,880
Speaker 1: I just broke down into tears. I just all that, uh,

644
00:32:16,280 --> 00:32:19,760
Speaker 1: all those years of you know, staying stoic and fighting,

645
00:32:19,800 --> 00:32:21,880
Speaker 1: and it just I was able to let it go.

646
00:32:22,680 --> 00:32:26,000
Speaker 3: That's an amazing picture that you're painting right there, and

647
00:32:26,080 --> 00:32:30,320
Speaker 3: it's it's actually really heartwarming to think about all the

648
00:32:30,400 --> 00:32:32,880
Speaker 3: other guys, you know, who are still facing their own

649
00:32:33,200 --> 00:32:36,360
Speaker 3: demons and their own sentences, but the fact that they

650
00:32:36,360 --> 00:32:39,200
Speaker 3: were able to take joy in your release.

651
00:32:39,720 --> 00:32:41,600
Speaker 1: Uh. Well, I made a lot of you know, good

652
00:32:41,600 --> 00:32:45,200
Speaker 1: friends in there. I mean, guilt or innocence didn't matter

653
00:32:45,520 --> 00:32:48,760
Speaker 1: as far as other people in there. You judge people

654
00:32:48,760 --> 00:32:50,240
Speaker 1: by who they were, and there's there's a lot of

655
00:32:50,280 --> 00:32:52,400
Speaker 1: stand up guys in there. They're not all scum like

656
00:32:52,760 --> 00:32:55,880
Speaker 1: some people would have people believe. And I mean I

657
00:32:55,920 --> 00:32:57,960
Speaker 1: met a lot of good people in there. You know,

658
00:32:58,040 --> 00:33:00,640
Speaker 1: there are some bad people, don't get me wrong. I

659
00:33:00,640 --> 00:33:02,560
Speaker 1: mean I made some good friends. I still go back

660
00:33:02,560 --> 00:33:04,240
Speaker 1: to the prison now to visit a couple guys.

661
00:33:04,760 --> 00:33:07,480
Speaker 3: That's amazing. So you're watching the movie, you get this,

662
00:33:07,760 --> 00:33:10,160
Speaker 3: you're sort of touched by an angel, right, although it's

663
00:33:10,240 --> 00:33:11,440
Speaker 3: in the form of a prison guard.

664
00:33:11,440 --> 00:33:13,760
Speaker 1: In this case, he was actually a cool prison guard.

665
00:33:13,760 --> 00:33:15,960
Speaker 3: Oh good, Well that adds a little something to it too.

666
00:33:16,040 --> 00:33:18,400
Speaker 3: And then a few hours later, whatever it is, your

667
00:33:18,440 --> 00:33:21,840
Speaker 3: mom arrives. She must have been breaking down too. And

668
00:33:22,120 --> 00:33:24,400
Speaker 3: what time of year was it when you got out,

669
00:33:24,440 --> 00:33:26,200
Speaker 3: and what time of day was it? Was it hot?

670
00:33:26,320 --> 00:33:28,200
Speaker 3: Was it cold? And where'd you go? And what'd you do?

671
00:33:29,040 --> 00:33:30,600
Speaker 3: What was the first thing you did?

672
00:33:30,920 --> 00:33:35,280
Speaker 1: So it was May twenty eighth, twenty fifteen, and it

673
00:33:35,320 --> 00:33:38,600
Speaker 1: was a nice, nice day out. So there was three

674
00:33:38,600 --> 00:33:41,080
Speaker 1: of my attorneys there at my mom, and we went

675
00:33:41,120 --> 00:33:45,520
Speaker 1: to this nearby diner and I had a bacon mushroom cheeseburger,

676
00:33:45,560 --> 00:33:48,280
Speaker 1: which was the best bacon mushroom cheeseburger I've ever had.

677
00:33:49,240 --> 00:33:53,560
Speaker 1: And we sat around and talked and just enjoyed the

678
00:33:53,640 --> 00:33:56,000
Speaker 1: moment and you know, kind of let everything else just

679
00:33:56,080 --> 00:33:56,600
Speaker 1: melt away.

680
00:33:56,960 --> 00:33:59,880
Speaker 3: Where the tears and you know, at that point.

681
00:34:00,120 --> 00:34:03,240
Speaker 1: It was just jubilation, man, just telling stories and talking

682
00:34:03,640 --> 00:34:08,120
Speaker 1: and being happy that the tears most of those were shed.

683
00:34:08,200 --> 00:34:10,920
Speaker 1: You know, in the parking lot before we went to

684
00:34:10,960 --> 00:34:14,080
Speaker 1: the diner. So yeah, it was just an all happy moment,

685
00:34:14,200 --> 00:34:16,040
Speaker 1: you know, with all of us sitting there and eating

686
00:34:16,040 --> 00:34:19,440
Speaker 1: a meal together and talking about future dreams and hopes and.

687
00:34:20,200 --> 00:34:24,160
Speaker 3: You know, so I'm thinking about this first meal, so

688
00:34:24,239 --> 00:34:26,120
Speaker 3: to speak. Right, people think about the last supper. I'm

689
00:34:26,120 --> 00:34:28,680
Speaker 3: thinking about the first meal and how good this food

690
00:34:28,840 --> 00:34:34,520
Speaker 3: taste after fifteen and a half years of institutional you know, slop,

691
00:34:34,760 --> 00:34:37,600
Speaker 3: so to speak. I think there's another element to this

692
00:34:37,640 --> 00:34:39,359
Speaker 3: particular story of the first meal.

693
00:34:40,000 --> 00:34:44,239
Speaker 1: Yeah. So I have this story which is kind of

694
00:34:44,280 --> 00:34:46,600
Speaker 1: it's a growing story, if you will. When I went

695
00:34:46,680 --> 00:34:50,640
Speaker 1: to court, in federal court, I had a writ to Stateville.

696
00:34:51,160 --> 00:34:53,520
Speaker 1: I originally spent all my time in Menard and we

697
00:34:53,560 --> 00:34:56,920
Speaker 1: didn't have oranges. I used to love oranges growing up

698
00:34:56,960 --> 00:35:00,440
Speaker 1: as a kid. And when I got to Stateville, they

699
00:35:00,440 --> 00:35:04,360
Speaker 1: had oranges. And I got an orange and I hadn't

700
00:35:04,440 --> 00:35:08,440
Speaker 1: seen or had an orange in like eight years, eight

701
00:35:08,480 --> 00:35:11,040
Speaker 1: and a half years at this point, and so I

702
00:35:11,120 --> 00:35:13,439
Speaker 1: just looked at that orange and smelled it and rolled

703
00:35:13,440 --> 00:35:15,759
Speaker 1: it around in my hand. I savored every moment of

704
00:35:15,760 --> 00:35:17,959
Speaker 1: that orange. And most people were like, oh, you must

705
00:35:18,080 --> 00:35:20,480
Speaker 1: really love oranges. But it's not so much that it's

706
00:35:20,840 --> 00:35:23,520
Speaker 1: it's the little things that everyday people take for granted

707
00:35:24,120 --> 00:35:26,560
Speaker 1: that you miss so much when it's deprived of you.

708
00:35:27,080 --> 00:35:28,600
Speaker 1: And so I ate that orange, and that was the

709
00:35:28,640 --> 00:35:31,680
Speaker 1: best orange I ever ate. And when I got out.

710
00:35:31,719 --> 00:35:33,239
Speaker 1: The day I got out, we went to that little

711
00:35:33,280 --> 00:35:36,320
Speaker 1: diner and had this bacon mushroom cheeseburger. I was telling

712
00:35:36,360 --> 00:35:40,880
Speaker 1: my attorneys about this story, and the waitress overheard and

713
00:35:40,960 --> 00:35:42,799
Speaker 1: she came over to me after I was done and

714
00:35:42,840 --> 00:35:43,720
Speaker 1: gave me an orange.

715
00:35:44,600 --> 00:35:44,960
Speaker 3: Wow.

716
00:35:45,320 --> 00:35:47,759
Speaker 1: And so you know, it kind of grew so and

717
00:35:47,800 --> 00:35:51,040
Speaker 1: then later last year in San Diego at the Innocence

718
00:35:51,120 --> 00:35:55,480
Speaker 1: Network conference, I was telling this same story and after

719
00:35:55,520 --> 00:35:57,799
Speaker 1: I was done, one of the girls that was there

720
00:35:57,800 --> 00:36:00,080
Speaker 1: in this little group walked over and gave me an orange.

721
00:36:00,160 --> 00:36:03,120
Speaker 1: So this is like this evolving story about an orange

722
00:36:03,640 --> 00:36:05,920
Speaker 1: and it's meaning in my life. And how you know,

723
00:36:05,920 --> 00:36:08,120
Speaker 1: when I was sitting in that prison cell, it had

724
00:36:08,160 --> 00:36:11,400
Speaker 1: all this weight of you know, something so small but

725
00:36:11,440 --> 00:36:12,719
Speaker 1: so powerful and meaningful.

726
00:36:14,640 --> 00:36:17,280
Speaker 3: So you drove back to tennessee what date.

727
00:36:17,200 --> 00:36:19,880
Speaker 1: Was that May twenty eight, twenty fifteen.

728
00:36:20,320 --> 00:36:25,480
Speaker 3: So that's that's pretty recent. And since then, how's life?

729
00:36:27,080 --> 00:36:29,319
Speaker 1: It's good, you know. I mean, it took me a

730
00:36:29,400 --> 00:36:32,160
Speaker 1: little while to adapt to things and want to get

731
00:36:32,200 --> 00:36:36,920
Speaker 1: back out around people. I was very uncomfortable in public,

732
00:36:38,120 --> 00:36:40,480
Speaker 1: Like if I went to a Walmart, just having people,

733
00:36:41,000 --> 00:36:43,799
Speaker 1: you know, aimlessly wandering around me kind of put me

734
00:36:43,840 --> 00:36:46,520
Speaker 1: on the ease, you know. So I still had that

735
00:36:46,640 --> 00:36:48,480
Speaker 1: kind of you know, what are you doing behind me?

736
00:36:48,560 --> 00:36:50,840
Speaker 1: Kind of feel, you know, like you have in prison.

737
00:36:51,160 --> 00:36:54,719
Speaker 1: And so yeah, I was very weird about being out

738
00:36:54,760 --> 00:36:57,200
Speaker 1: in public for a while, and I almost came dangerously

739
00:36:57,200 --> 00:37:00,399
Speaker 1: close to creating my own prison at home. It's where

740
00:37:00,400 --> 00:37:03,359
Speaker 1: I didn't want to leave. But I forced myself out

741
00:37:03,360 --> 00:37:05,520
Speaker 1: of my comfort zone and I got out there and

742
00:37:06,280 --> 00:37:09,479
Speaker 1: just started facing things and doing things. And I still

743
00:37:09,520 --> 00:37:12,840
Speaker 1: like to sit whack and see everybody. But you know,

744
00:37:13,120 --> 00:37:15,520
Speaker 1: I get around in public with no problem. I go

745
00:37:15,520 --> 00:37:19,200
Speaker 1: to concerts now and you know, I'm trying to become

746
00:37:19,239 --> 00:37:22,239
Speaker 1: an aspiring filmmaker and I do a TV show, so

747
00:37:22,320 --> 00:37:25,560
Speaker 1: I'm getting around and bumping elbows with people and going

748
00:37:25,560 --> 00:37:27,240
Speaker 1: to conferences and doing different things.

749
00:37:27,560 --> 00:37:32,200
Speaker 3: Jason, we have a tradition here on Wrongful Conviction, which

750
00:37:32,239 --> 00:37:36,200
Speaker 3: is that at the end of the show, I like

751
00:37:36,320 --> 00:37:39,080
Speaker 3: to turn the mic over to you the star of

752
00:37:39,120 --> 00:37:43,200
Speaker 3: the show, and just share with us anything at all

753
00:37:43,280 --> 00:37:44,200
Speaker 3: that you want to share.

754
00:37:44,680 --> 00:37:48,000
Speaker 1: Okay, Well, I did want to add that I'm also

755
00:37:48,120 --> 00:37:51,839
Speaker 1: working on a documentary that I'm filming about wrongful convictions,

756
00:37:52,239 --> 00:37:55,680
Speaker 1: and the purpose of this film is that I don't

757
00:37:55,680 --> 00:37:58,520
Speaker 1: want to preach to the choir anymore. I want to

758
00:37:58,560 --> 00:38:00,920
Speaker 1: reach out to more and more people and show people

759
00:38:00,920 --> 00:38:03,279
Speaker 1: that this is a bigger problem than one or two

760
00:38:03,280 --> 00:38:06,359
Speaker 1: people you might see in a documentary. I think too

761
00:38:06,400 --> 00:38:10,160
Speaker 1: many people are unaware of how big of a problem

762
00:38:10,239 --> 00:38:13,520
Speaker 1: this is. They see a story on Kurt Bloodsworth or

763
00:38:13,560 --> 00:38:17,120
Speaker 1: someone else, and they'll say, oh, poor that person, poor

764
00:38:17,160 --> 00:38:20,439
Speaker 1: this person. And I want them to understand that there

765
00:38:20,480 --> 00:38:24,120
Speaker 1: are thousands of people that this is probably happening to

766
00:38:24,280 --> 00:38:27,239
Speaker 1: right now that we don't even know about. America has

767
00:38:27,239 --> 00:38:29,359
Speaker 1: two point two million people in prison. If just one

768
00:38:29,400 --> 00:38:33,080
Speaker 1: percent is wrong, that's twenty two thousand people. That's a

769
00:38:33,160 --> 00:38:37,239
Speaker 1: lot of people's lives destroyed potentially, you know, and we

770
00:38:37,320 --> 00:38:39,080
Speaker 1: need to be aware of this. Martin Luther King said

771
00:38:39,080 --> 00:38:41,480
Speaker 1: in Justice Anywhere as a threat of justice everywhere. We

772
00:38:41,560 --> 00:38:43,800
Speaker 1: need to be aware of our problems and hold people

773
00:38:43,800 --> 00:38:46,320
Speaker 1: accountable when they break the laws that they're supposed to

774
00:38:46,400 --> 00:38:49,160
Speaker 1: uphold cops and prosecutors should not be immune.

775
00:38:55,640 --> 00:38:58,239
Speaker 3: Don't forget to give us a fantastic review wherever you

776
00:38:58,320 --> 00:39:02,000
Speaker 3: get your podcasts. It really helps. And I'm a proud

777
00:39:02,040 --> 00:39:04,600
Speaker 3: donor to the Innocence Project and I really hope you'll

778
00:39:04,680 --> 00:39:08,080
Speaker 3: join me in supporting this very important cause and helping

779
00:39:08,200 --> 00:39:12,120
Speaker 3: to prevent future wrongful convictions. Go to Innocenceproject dot org

780
00:39:12,239 --> 00:39:15,000
Speaker 3: to learn how to donate and get involved. I'd like

781
00:39:15,080 --> 00:39:18,040
Speaker 3: to thank our production team, Connor Hall and Kevin Ortis.

782
00:39:18,360 --> 00:39:20,640
Speaker 3: The music in the show is by three time OSCAR

783
00:39:20,680 --> 00:39:23,719
Speaker 3: nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us on

784
00:39:23,760 --> 00:39:28,560
Speaker 3: Instagram at Wrongful Conviction and on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast.

785
00:39:28,920 --> 00:39:32,000
Speaker 3: Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm is a production of Lava

786
00:39:32,000 --> 00:39:37,520
Speaker 3: for Good Podcasts and association with Signal Company Number one