Speaker 1: Hey, everybody in this episode, will you marry me? And
Speaker 1: as a follow up to that, will you help me
Speaker 1: pay for the engagement ring? I just put on your finger.
Speaker 1: Welcome to Amy and TJ and rogues. Tell folks what
Speaker 1: they probably already know. What is, as we have seen
Speaker 1: in the surveys we've been watching and reading, the number
Speaker 1: one cause of fights and disputes in relationships.
Speaker 2: It is money. Money, money.
Speaker 1: Now would you one hundred percent agree with that based
Speaker 1: on your history the past thirty years of relationship?
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, I would say that money has in one
Speaker 2: of my relationships definitely caused a significant amount of problems.
Speaker 2: And I actually think the money issue is maybe even
Speaker 2: a symptom of a larger issue where you don't operate
Speaker 2: the same way you don't maybe you have trust issues,
Speaker 2: maybe you have different ways of operating through life, and
Speaker 2: so it might, I think, point to a larger problem
Speaker 2: just in terms of your compatibility a right.
Speaker 1: So that's the number one reason for disputes and relationships,
Speaker 1: And from also the surveys we see when it comes
Speaker 1: absolutely to divorce, what is one of the leading causes
Speaker 1: of divorce in this country?
Speaker 2: Financial stress, money, Yes, And it's listed on every survey
Speaker 2: you can look at pointing to that being a leading
Speaker 2: cause of most divorces.
Speaker 1: Okay, so most people we have we got enough issues
Speaker 1: in a relationship, but we start off in a marriage.
Speaker 1: And this comes from an oracle. A woman said that
Speaker 1: she took issue with her now husband because she found
Speaker 1: out after they got married that the ring that he
Speaker 1: put on her finger and he used to propose to her,
Speaker 1: he is now paying for and paying.
Speaker 2: Off using the joint account.
Speaker 1: Okay, is this now. Your initial reaction when this was
Speaker 1: forwarded to us was what? No, Well here, before we
Speaker 1: get into the details of it, just seeing the headline,
Speaker 1: what was your initial reaction?
Speaker 2: Well, so, to me, the very significant phrase that stood
Speaker 2: out to me was found out. She found out that
Speaker 2: he was paying for the ring he proposed to her
Speaker 2: with with their joint account. There was not a discussion.
Speaker 2: She was surprised by it, and that I can understand
Speaker 2: not having known that that was happening, or not having
Speaker 2: discussed that that's how it was going to be paid for.
Speaker 1: Okay, let me take it one step further. Okay, that
Speaker 1: one hundred percent agreement. She didn't know. So now she
Speaker 1: has found out and it's been explained to you. Is
Speaker 1: that something we can get past.
Speaker 2: Yes, it's something we could get past, because if you
Speaker 2: don't have the money, you don't have the money. And
Speaker 2: I know they are I mean, I'm going to get
Speaker 2: into a little bit of the details here when I
Speaker 2: say this, But I read that they were saving to
Speaker 2: buy a house. So when you're actually talking about being
Speaker 2: a couple, being united and putting your money towards joint
Speaker 2: ventures as big as a house, then I understand why
Speaker 2: maybe why would one person just have to take on
Speaker 2: that expense, especially when it is a part of a wedding.
Speaker 2: It's not like he bought her birthday gift with it
Speaker 2: and then had her pay for it. This is some
Speaker 2: people could argue that the engagement ring is a part
Speaker 2: of the wedding expense.
Speaker 1: What do you argue?
Speaker 2: I Initially, I think I would be a little put off, Like,
Speaker 2: whoa you proposed to me with the ring that you
Speaker 2: couldn't afford. That sounds stupid. So that would probably be
Speaker 2: a little annoying to me. But I could get past it,
Speaker 2: and I can understand, but initially I would be I
Speaker 2: would be annoyed.
Speaker 1: The next part of that is for me, what if
Speaker 1: you helped pick out the ring, so you which I
Speaker 1: saw on one of the wedding websites that seventy two
Speaker 1: percent of couples end up picking out rings together. So
Speaker 1: the man and woman and the women are a part
Speaker 1: of it. So if you pick out a ring you
Speaker 1: got your heart set on, and I know my raise
Speaker 1: ain't coming for another six months now, is does that
Speaker 1: change anything? You're telling me what I need to purchase
Speaker 1: for you?
Speaker 2: That absolutely changes it for me. Okay, Yes, if we
Speaker 2: picked it out together and I knew exactly how much
Speaker 2: it cost and we were choosing it together, I don't.
Speaker 2: I actually think that's probably a smarter way to do it.
Speaker 2: But if you if you got the element of surprise
Speaker 2: and the guy wants to go make this gesture and
Speaker 2: he decides what ring he wants to buy, and he
Speaker 2: makes those choices, that is kind of on him. But yeah,
Speaker 2: if you go together and do it, I absolutely think
Speaker 2: that's a completely different situation.
Speaker 1: Okay, way, So that sounds he sounds pretty definitive. All
Speaker 1: bets are off. If y'all picked it out together, y'all
Speaker 1: should pay for it together.
Speaker 2: I think you can. I think it's understandable and reasonable.
Speaker 2: That you would, but I'm a big believer you need
Speaker 2: to have a conversation about it. I mean, I think
Speaker 2: that's the thing that was missing here, that they didn't
Speaker 2: have a conversation about what was happening. So yes, if
Speaker 2: they went to go pick it out together, I would
Speaker 2: absolutely want to participate in that and have us do
Speaker 2: a joint thing.
Speaker 1: Yes, okay, how do you go about have that conversation?
Speaker 1: We picked out a ring together, But you have to
Speaker 1: be under you have to have an agreement that we
Speaker 1: are going to pay for this together.
Speaker 2: You have to have an understanding about what each person
Speaker 2: is financially capable of covering. And so yeah, say you know,
Speaker 2: if you're the guy, hey babe, I really want to
Speaker 2: get you the ring of your dreams, but I don't
Speaker 2: have the money right now. I know, I totally get that.
Speaker 2: I totally get that we have a hard time deciding
Speaker 2: who's paying for dinner. So I you know, I think
Speaker 2: I can understand toime.
Speaker 1: We do what we don't have hard let me so
Speaker 1: we don't have a hard time deciding.
Speaker 2: We had a lot of back and forth in the beginning,
Speaker 2: and it was quite funny because if I tried to
Speaker 2: pay for some of it or all of it. I
Speaker 2: got a Venmo back immediately with an extra five dollars attached,
Speaker 2: saying that was funny. Sometimes you actually give me the
Speaker 2: middle finger emoji.
Speaker 1: We'll edit that out. Tell me. We are from a
Speaker 1: different way, right, a different gener I want to say generation,
Speaker 1: but still we are older folks see it in a
Speaker 1: more traditional way. We go to dinner, the man pays.
Speaker 1: That's just it. From the moment I joined ABC News,
Speaker 1: you were already there. There's not a moment a day
Speaker 1: in our ABC careers that I made more money than
Speaker 1: you did. So but still, once we started dating, you
Speaker 1: didn't pay for a meal. I didn't have some expectation
Speaker 1: that I she's It's not like I was doing okay, right,
Speaker 1: That's what I'm saying. But the point there being, it's
Speaker 1: just in some of our minds that the guy always
Speaker 1: always pays. And so we had to work this out,
Speaker 1: you and I, and we have resolved it to where
Speaker 1: we do we have a joint account now, to where
Speaker 1: we go out, whatever we do. It's completely fifty to
Speaker 1: fifty in everything. But this one threw me because the
Speaker 1: first detail I wanted to hear was whether or not
Speaker 1: they had a joint account already heading into the marriage, Like,
Speaker 1: how long have they been together? Within a year or
Speaker 1: two years? Have they already gotten their finances together? I
Speaker 1: don't have that answer yet, because if you have a
Speaker 1: joint account and I need to go buy you a
Speaker 1: wedding ring, where am I supposed to pay? Where is
Speaker 1: the money? All my money is going into our joint account,
Speaker 1: So what are we supposed to do with that?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I hear you, I hear you. I do know
Speaker 2: this detail. I know this detail that they got engaged
Speaker 2: and one month later were married. So in that very
Speaker 2: short month between the engagement and the wedding, they did
Speaker 2: go in and have joint accounts. So they have a
Speaker 2: joint account within a month. So if he couldn't have
Speaker 2: paid that off within a month, there was nowhere for
Speaker 2: it to come but from the join account.
Speaker 1: But you're making the assumption that they only got the
Speaker 1: joint account in that month. My argument is that have
Speaker 1: they been together a year, two years, three year after
Speaker 1: all that time, sometimes you might already have a joint
Speaker 1: account together. So I don't know if this is the case.
Speaker 1: So let's say there is a joint account, this is
Speaker 1: all we have. I needs to go buy a wedding ring. Now,
Speaker 1: all of my paychecks have been going into the joint account.
Speaker 1: What how do I separate? How am I supposed to
Speaker 1: go pay for the ring on my own? If all
Speaker 1: my money's going in here? Do I put it on
Speaker 1: a secret credit card? What am I supposed to do?
Speaker 2: Well, that's that's a whole other chain of events.
Speaker 1: Let's go off the rails.
Speaker 2: Secret credit card.
Speaker 1: I'll not go off the rails. But if we have
Speaker 1: a joint account, you and I and I go and
Speaker 1: I am going to buy you a ring, where is
Speaker 1: the money supposed to come from?
Speaker 2: I hear your point. That makes a lot of sense.
Speaker 2: So I'm assuming for her to be upset, there had
Speaker 2: to have been separate accounts, at least at the time
Speaker 2: the purchase of the wedding ring.
Speaker 1: Okay, and what did the we're going to get into
Speaker 1: what this This young lady says she's twenty eight. I
Speaker 1: think the husband is thirty as soon to be ex husband.
Speaker 1: Emma's in here are our producer, Emma. What was her
Speaker 1: first can you read me that first quote from the woman,
Speaker 1: and this is this is fascinating.
Speaker 3: Her first quote was I was just taking it back,
Speaker 3: and honestly put off by the fact that he's making
Speaker 3: me pay for a gift that he gave to me.
Speaker 3: We have been having some arguments slightly, and he feels
Speaker 3: that a ring is a wedding expense and it's only
Speaker 3: fair that I contribute towards it too, and that as
Speaker 3: a woman of this day, I shouldn't hesitate to be
Speaker 3: an equal partner.
Speaker 1: That that's the conversation that should have happen ahead of time. Exactly,
Speaker 1: you're right, Okay, you can't. You can't argue with that.
Speaker 1: But what is his argument? What does that make sense?
Speaker 1: What if you would have said it ahead of time?
Speaker 1: But he's making an assumption, which he shouldn't have. But
Speaker 1: you give a gift, it's a conditional gift, right, so
Speaker 1: he can get it back.
Speaker 2: That's true.
Speaker 1: But if she's contributed now to the paying of this
Speaker 1: conditional gift.
Speaker 2: It's it's is it partly hers? Yes, it absolutely is.
Speaker 2: And you're right because that is something of distinction when
Speaker 2: you talk about an engagement ring. If the wedding doesn't happen,
Speaker 2: the marriage doesn't happen. I believe it's within his legal
Speaker 2: rights to get that ring back because it was a
Speaker 2: promise for something, and so to that extent, yes, her
Speaker 2: point is that's what you do. The man buys the
Speaker 2: woman the ring, and then when you get married, that's
Speaker 2: the promise.
Speaker 1: And now the ring is hers legally, and that's what
Speaker 1: courts have ruled all over this country, different states. That
Speaker 1: has kind of been the consensus.
Speaker 2: So to her point, if she's helped paid for it,
Speaker 2: that's kind of taking away the whole point of what
Speaker 2: the ring is. I get that. So, but I understand
Speaker 2: what he's saying only if he had the conversation with
Speaker 2: her ahead of time. I think there is an expectation
Speaker 2: given all that we just said. Actually, now that we're
Speaker 2: talking about what it represents and the legalities of what
Speaker 2: the ring actually is, before and after the marriage, it
Speaker 2: would make sense that there would be an expectation that
Speaker 2: he and he alone would pay for it.
Speaker 1: Okay, what do you think about the fact that you
Speaker 1: have a joint account, he's putting money into it, and
Speaker 1: if he has to take some of his money out
Speaker 1: of there to pay for the ring, does that make
Speaker 1: you feel better even though you're still.
Speaker 2: Taking out Yeah, I know, I mean that's that'shilarious. No,
Speaker 2: I mean, yes, but.
Speaker 1: Does it make you feel better?
Speaker 2: Maybe? I guess maybe I think what it would be
Speaker 2: for me would be the shock of it, Like he
Speaker 2: hasn't talked about it, and all of a sudden you
Speaker 2: start seeing money leaving your joint account and you think
Speaker 2: to yourself, where what is this for? And then and
Speaker 2: then the conversation happens. I think that's the biggest issue.
Speaker 2: And avoidance is a huge part of this because I
Speaker 2: was reading so many articles fascinating reading up about money, finances, relationships,
Speaker 2: and it is one of those taboo topics that most
Speaker 2: experts and people who are in relationships would agree with.
Speaker 2: We'll talk about anything other than money, like it's easier
Speaker 2: to talk about sex, it's easier to talk about, you know,
Speaker 2: uncomfortable topics, even family, whatever, relationship issues. But people don't
Speaker 2: want to talk about money. And in one article I read,
Speaker 2: twenty five percent of the people surveyed did not know
Speaker 2: how much their significant other made. They didn't even know
Speaker 2: their salary. That's how much we don't talk about money
Speaker 2: with one another. Oftentimes, what's her nick?
Speaker 1: Emma, what's the She has a couple quotes here, Emma,
Speaker 1: what was her? Next? One?
Speaker 3: From the young lady, She says, First, you don't make
Speaker 3: the recipient of a gift pay for the gift. An
Speaker 3: engagement ring is considered a gift in the most modern societies,
Speaker 3: even today, and I don't care if you disagree with that. Secondly,
Speaker 3: I've unintentionally partially paid for two installments now, which makes
Speaker 3: me a part owner of the ring.
Speaker 2: I think that makes sense. I would agree with her
Speaker 2: again without a conversation ahead of time or out, without saying,
Speaker 2: you know what, that's cool. I get it. We're in
Speaker 2: this together and we're trying to say for a house,
Speaker 2: which I think is totally reasonable. But without that conversation,
Speaker 2: what she's saying to me makes sense.
Speaker 1: Give me the last one, Emma.
Speaker 3: If I knew my husband was going to be making
Speaker 3: me pay for the ring, I wouldn't have agreed to
Speaker 3: buy it.
Speaker 1: In quotes making me pay. I mean, that's some in
Speaker 1: Sindiari language.
Speaker 2: She's mad, she's pissed, let's be honest, she's so pishy,
Speaker 2: took it to Reddit and want everyone else to weigh in.
Speaker 2: And actually a lot of people were not on her side. Yeah,
Speaker 2: to which you say, TJ.
Speaker 1: We were we in a recent pot. It's just communication.
Speaker 1: We talk. We talk about this all the time. The
Speaker 1: shows we watch, it's all to see how people communicate
Speaker 1: or don't communicate is the key to everything. It's it's
Speaker 1: you can't it's hard to pick a right or wrong here.
Speaker 1: There's some details we are we're certainly not privy to,
Speaker 1: but I just all of your mon I am a
Speaker 1: joint guy. But everything we bring in is it's a
Speaker 1: joint situation, no matter who makes what. That's always been
Speaker 1: my mindset, even yeah and yeah, as the guy who
Speaker 1: has always been the higher earner in all of my relationships,
Speaker 1: that's still that joint. Joint, joint, joint. Some people say
Speaker 1: that's good. Somebody people say that's bad. Some say that's terrible,
Speaker 1: a terrible idea. And then the other option is to joint.
Speaker 1: You have your joint. I have my joint, and then
Speaker 1: we excuse me, we have our individual accounts, and then
Speaker 1: we have oneot not a big.
Speaker 2: You know what, It's so funny. I've done it both ways.
Speaker 2: I've had everything in a joint, and then I've had
Speaker 2: a joint where you take you know, the household costs,
Speaker 2: and you put in percentage wise based on your salary.
Speaker 2: I mean I've done all sorts of crazy stuff and
Speaker 2: then had your individual accounts, and I do get it
Speaker 2: because it's kind of silly and semantics because if you
Speaker 2: do get married, whatever you all have together is marital property.
Speaker 2: So when it comes to if you end up divorcing
Speaker 2: or separating or having to split ways, you still end
Speaker 2: up having to split everything fifty to fifty by law.
Speaker 2: I mean, you can work out other arrangements, but technically
Speaker 2: that is what legally you're supposed to do. So it
Speaker 2: is maybe this silly notion of thinking I've got control
Speaker 2: of my money and he's got control of his money.
Speaker 2: But the problem with that is this separate way of
Speaker 2: viewing how you're living your life, from vacations to meals
Speaker 2: to whatever, and so it does create a separation. I
Speaker 2: understand that, and it makes sense to me. But I
Speaker 2: felt empowered to have my own account as a woman.
Speaker 2: I will say that, and I will also add this,
Speaker 2: it gets further complicated when you have children from other
Speaker 2: marriages involved, because now you know, it gets really complicated.
Speaker 2: Money is so it's such a taboo topic in so
Speaker 2: many ways because because it's about power really at the
Speaker 2: end of the day.
Speaker 1: Right autonomy is a big part of this, right, Like
Speaker 1: I said, if you're going to be splitting and get
Speaker 1: a divorce, legally it is not going to make a difference.
Speaker 1: But that is a big deal, and maybe more so
Speaker 1: for women oftentimes who are not the primary bread wind
Speaker 1: or excuse me not the higher earners in a house,
Speaker 1: to have some kind of a feel like you don't
Speaker 1: you're not dependent on the person you're married to. If
Speaker 1: you want to go do this, do that have to
Speaker 1: ask permission to use that money.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And that was that was huge for me, just
Speaker 2: to feel autonomous and to feel like I was able
Speaker 2: to take care of my daughter who I was bringing
Speaker 2: in from another marriage. So I think, you know, that
Speaker 2: can cause a whole other layer. I think of just
Speaker 2: needing to feel like I am I'm responsible for these
Speaker 2: other people and you're not. So I want to keep
Speaker 2: this money available to me to be able to put
Speaker 2: into a five to twenty nine or all of those
Speaker 2: other things. And also sometimes, I mean most of the times,
Speaker 2: people have very different spending habits. So think about the fight.
Speaker 2: If you've got the joint and one person's out spending
Speaker 2: all this money on luxury items and the other person's shopping,
Speaker 2: you know, very frugally. That can cause a lot of
Speaker 2: problems too, But the transparency might be better.
Speaker 1: But that he's shaking his ass andy out the court
Speaker 1: in my eye, shaking his head. But the first thing
Speaker 1: that came to mind. You can argue about somebody's spending habits,
Speaker 1: the first thing they're going to say to you is, well,
Speaker 1: is my money that can't be healthy?
Speaker 2: No, it can't be. But if it's in a joint account,
Speaker 2: wouldn't it even be worse?
Speaker 1: But then that forces you to talk about it. You
Speaker 1: have to have a discussion about those habits versus you
Speaker 1: don't like the way that person's living because they are
Speaker 1: you're spending all your money over there. We saw this
Speaker 1: on one of the show what I don't know. We
Speaker 1: saw this going down. You're complaining about somebody's habits, but
Speaker 1: you can't control their habits because it's not your money.
Speaker 1: But that's not a healthy way in my opinion.
Speaker 2: You are right, you are correct in fact, So this
Speaker 2: is the first time we've had this conversation about you
Speaker 2: being all in with a joint that's I didn't know that.
Speaker 2: I didn't know that that was the way you operated.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you're the higher earner very much like you're funny,
Speaker 1: this is the first time in my advantage.
Speaker 2: Oh my gosh. No. But I also feel uncomfortable being
Speaker 2: a working woman who is able to take care of
Speaker 2: herself to not contribute when it comes to going out
Speaker 2: on dates and meals and all of that. So initially
Speaker 2: when we first started dating, I felt really uncomfortable with
Speaker 2: you paying for everything on one hand. On the other hand,
Speaker 2: I'm going to be really honest here. I liked it.
Speaker 2: It was there's this thing about women, like, do we
Speaker 2: want to have this women's lib thing where we're independent
Speaker 2: and we can do everything ourselves. But there's still something
Speaker 2: in me that really appreciated the fact that you wanted
Speaker 2: to pay for the bills and you actually not wanted to.
Speaker 2: You insisted on it at all costs, And there was
Speaker 2: something really I thought beautiful about that. I don't know,
Speaker 2: you're a gentleman, You're you're you want to take care
Speaker 2: of the person you're with, and you want to take
Speaker 2: you know, you want to give financial support to that
Speaker 2: person or just make them feel comfortable. That there was
Speaker 2: something that I really did like about it. As much
Speaker 2: as I have maybe railed against it, you know intellectually
Speaker 2: I'm not going to it felt good to know that
Speaker 2: you were there saying I got this.
Speaker 1: The other side to that, are there are women out
Speaker 1: there who will absolutely voice their opposition to such a
Speaker 1: thing modern times. I think the younger generation might see
Speaker 1: you or feel about it differently. But do you think
Speaker 1: most women will will say it to you publicly or
Speaker 1: they'll they'll they'll they have a difficult time admitting that, Yeah,
Speaker 1: I like it, Yes.
Speaker 2: I actually was. I actually got smaller when I said it.
Speaker 2: I was like, I'm going to be honest, and I
Speaker 2: know some women will take issue with me, but I
Speaker 2: liked it. I did, and I want to contribute, of course,
Speaker 2: but just the gesture of it maybe was very meaningful
Speaker 2: to me.
Speaker 1: And I used to give you a hard time about.
Speaker 1: We used to have to play like it was a
Speaker 1: weird game we play in a restaurant going to the restroom,
Speaker 1: like this is your fifth time Robock in the past
Speaker 1: forty five minutes because you're trying to find the waiter, Tom, because.
Speaker 2: The only way I knew that I could pay the
Speaker 2: bill is if I got up and sneaked, you know,
Speaker 2: a credit card over to the waiter and say can
Speaker 2: you just take care of this? The problem was once
Speaker 2: TJ found out the venmo back and forth started, Oh
Speaker 2: my god, and the and TJ was brilliant and how
Speaker 2: he ended the venmo because I knew it was never
Speaker 2: going to end. He would venmo me back whatever the
Speaker 2: bill was, plus five dollars, and then I'd do the
Speaker 2: same thing back to him, and then he'd up at
Speaker 2: ten dollars. It's like, I can do this all day.
Speaker 2: I want to keep going. So and I knew he would,
Speaker 2: and so finally I was just like, uncle, fine, all right, you.
Speaker 1: Got it, because yeah, you cost me one hundred dollars
Speaker 1: for lunch. Now I've had to pay you one hundred
Speaker 1: and twenty dollars on top, just to make a point.
Speaker 2: So finally we and we did. I was like, we
Speaker 2: have to get a joint babe. I cannot because we
Speaker 2: can't keep doing this. So we did eventually get a
Speaker 2: joint account, but that was even that took longer than
Speaker 2: it should have because we had paparazzi on us and
Speaker 2: we didn't want them to see us going into the
Speaker 2: bank together.
Speaker 1: Do you remember that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, we were delayed getting a bank account together by
Speaker 2: at least six months because we couldn't figure out. We
Speaker 2: were on the phone with bankers. We were only trying
Speaker 2: to figure out if we could open up a joint
Speaker 2: account without physically having to go into the branch, and
Speaker 2: the answer was no. We couldn't figure it out. So
Speaker 2: we ended up delaying it by saying, so I'm still
Speaker 2: way behind in having any sort of equality with you.
Speaker 2: I mean, that's just the truth.
Speaker 1: No, it's it's not no, no, but that we don't
Speaker 1: expect it to even out. I mean, we're not expecting
Speaker 1: anything returnal you know what. The only thing and women
Speaker 1: listen up to this. This is the only thing, Emma
Speaker 1: that we ask at that dinner. And I wish folks
Speaker 1: could see this, just that little gesture to where you're
Speaker 1: kind of reaching towards your person. Yeah, you don't really
Speaker 1: mean it. You don't really you're not gonna pay, we know,
Speaker 1: but you just make the little effort like you're reaching
Speaker 1: for it. And we know, Okay, she wants to wants
Speaker 1: to try it. She's given an effort instead of just
Speaker 1: sitting back waiting and expecting us to pay. That little
Speaker 1: gesture is everything that's all we need.
Speaker 2: I would never I can't imagine doing that, But I
Speaker 2: guess and I don't know. We have some we have
Speaker 2: two younger people with us. But part of the reason
Speaker 2: I think why, maybe yes we want to women say
Speaker 2: these days, we can take care of ourselves. We're making
Speaker 2: our own money, we don't need you to pay for it,
Speaker 2: and you can and we get there a hundred percent.
Speaker 2: But there also is this notion with money that there
Speaker 2: are always strings attached. Is there an expectation of something,
Speaker 2: of a second date, or of something to happen later,
Speaker 2: or do I owe you? And no one wants to
Speaker 2: feel like they owe someone, So I think maybe that
Speaker 2: plays into it as well from a female perspective.
Speaker 1: But is that only present in the first date or
Speaker 1: second date? I mean, once you get into a relationship
Speaker 1: and things are rolling, At what point, though, in a
Speaker 1: relationship you're actually dating somebody, do you start to split
Speaker 1: up the bill so you start to say, all right,
Speaker 1: you take this with I'll take this. When does that
Speaker 1: start happening?
Speaker 2: I do TJ. When does that happen?
Speaker 1: Oh, it hasn't happened yet. Not here again. Weird, you know,
Speaker 1: I don't know. There's never ever a time where I
Speaker 1: was ever dating anyone from high school on where there
Speaker 1: was a point in the relationship where okay, now it's
Speaker 1: time versus start splitting it up. I would prefer a
Speaker 1: woman you pay for it instead of us splitting the check.
Speaker 1: Splitting the check is embarrassing and impersonal and silly.
Speaker 2: I think it puts you in the friend zone too.
Speaker 2: It feels like friends split bills. That's what we do.
Speaker 2: I would much rather, as you put it, like I
Speaker 2: got this one. You used to always say this, it
Speaker 2: all evens out on the end, doesn't.
Speaker 1: This is how I say, we spend enough time together,
Speaker 1: but it doesn't even out because I went, we go
Speaker 1: to dinner again, and you paid this time. But when
Speaker 1: I am over at your place and you ordered the
Speaker 1: prosecco and the stakes and you ordered the takeout here, right,
Speaker 1: we're not keeping tabs of just we're together enough. You
Speaker 1: you buzz me into the subway sometimes that's two seventy.
Speaker 2: You have then mowed me to seventy five. And I
Speaker 2: think you did it maybe two months ago, and I thought, really,
Speaker 2: we're still here. You're calling me for the subway car.
Speaker 1: Because I don't ever want you to feel like I
Speaker 1: have an expectation that you should cover something, and it's
Speaker 1: just it's going to be a thank you. It's going
Speaker 1: to be something that acknowledges that you have done something
Speaker 1: for me financially. Yes, if that's a two seventy five
Speaker 1: subway rat, you.
Speaker 2: Do take it to an extreme, but I also do
Speaker 2: appreciate the intent behind it. And I just Emma, I
Speaker 2: want to you. You go on a lot of first dates? Yes, yes,
Speaker 2: Why do you introduce her like that? So? I guess
Speaker 2: I was just jumping into the conversation we had had
Speaker 2: before the podcast started, So I apologize. We had already
Speaker 2: established that Emma as single and went on a first date. Sorry,
Speaker 2: I jumped in and just thought the viewers were already
Speaker 2: there and the listeners were already there anyway, So yes,
Speaker 2: I apologize for that, Emma. But have you ever paid
Speaker 2: for the meal or the activity on a first date?
Speaker 3: No? I have not paid. I don't think I've paid
Speaker 3: ever on the first date, not by choice. But I
Speaker 3: think it's like you guys were perfectly saying that it's
Speaker 3: the gesture of the man wanting to pay and me
Speaker 3: accepting the kind gesture.
Speaker 2: How would you feel if he suggested that you split it?
Speaker 3: I would split it? But I don't think I would
Speaker 3: go on a second date with it really.
Speaker 1: Wow, Why though, why is that such a turn off
Speaker 1: because you're twenty two? I just want to for folks
Speaker 1: to know who youre talking to here.
Speaker 3: I think it's because the men in my life have
Speaker 3: treated me with that kind of kindness, and I like
Speaker 3: being treated that way by a man because I know
Speaker 3: that when they make money, they don't spend it as
Speaker 3: often as girls do. So when they want to spend
Speaker 3: money on a girl or spend money on something, I
Speaker 3: feel like it has more power or there's something bigger
Speaker 3: behind it.
Speaker 1: So what would you say along the way of dating
Speaker 1: to where there would be an okay expectation of the
Speaker 1: bill being split or for you starting to pay for
Speaker 1: some of them?
Speaker 3: I think once we were comfortable with each other and
Speaker 3: liked each other, because I would I'm all for wanting
Speaker 3: to split it or buy them Like I one time
Speaker 3: I was asked to buy someone a hot chocolate and
Speaker 3: I was so excited to buy and one because he
Speaker 3: always bought me up all my drinks and food. So like,
Speaker 3: I'm so into buying a guy a drink as well.
Speaker 1: I'll go thanks for the stake, want some hot cocoa.
Speaker 2: I mean, I believe we had some of those moments
Speaker 2: where I would think it was really really, I'm like,
Speaker 2: I got this one, and then you would laugh I
Speaker 2: did it on purpose? Well please let me.
Speaker 1: That would the hell out of me.
Speaker 2: I'm trying to give an example. We're at CBS getting like,
Speaker 2: you know, I don't know shampoo. I got this one.
Speaker 1: You know, we tried that for a while. We tried
Speaker 1: the back and forth, but it always landed to where
Speaker 1: you were buying happy hour drinks, right, and with the
Speaker 1: bills thirty four hours. And for whatever reason, I'm at
Speaker 1: per Se trying to I.
Speaker 2: Was like Morton's Steakhouse, it's your turn, right.
Speaker 1: This all was all spawned from this conversation about the
Speaker 1: engagement ring, and I isn't it standard The guy gets
Speaker 1: the ring, proposes, but then you pay for your wedding bands.
Speaker 1: That's more of a joint expense.
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, yes, I think that is the traditional way
Speaker 2: that people operate. I mean, you know, there's all sorts
Speaker 2: of traditions surrounding weddings that people don't necessarily do. The
Speaker 2: bride's family typically pays for the wedding, and the groom's
Speaker 2: only typically pays for the rehearsal dinner. But you know
Speaker 2: that doesn't always. That isn't always what happens these days.
Speaker 2: And I just think, you know, with women, more women
Speaker 2: being in the workforce and in the workplace and educated, like,
Speaker 2: we're capable of paying for things in a way that
Speaker 2: you know, past generations have not been. But I think
Speaker 2: some people still point to something as specific as the
Speaker 2: wage gap that still exists, and that could be a
Speaker 2: reason why men should still make the offer to pay.
Speaker 1: I saw that. It's interesting, that's an interesting way to
Speaker 1: think about it, Like, hey, you're you're unfairly being paid
Speaker 1: more than I am. Anyway, Yeah, you covered the meal.
Speaker 1: Oh it's there's some logic to that. I mean, it's
Speaker 1: you could never quantify that, but still there's some logic
Speaker 1: to it. But the engagement ring part, and I would
Speaker 1: love to talk to these two and maybe we'll get
Speaker 1: a chance to at some point. Just the idea of
Speaker 1: the engagement ring I can't imagine. But I look at
Speaker 1: it this way. If you offered analyse a say, hey,
Speaker 1: I'm going to buy your car, you wouldn't just tell
Speaker 1: her go out pick whatever car you want, I pay
Speaker 1: for it. No, right, so I go with that. With
Speaker 1: the engagement ring, he had to have some kind of
Speaker 1: an idea. He didn't just like, Hey, what ring do
Speaker 1: you want and I'll go get whatever there had to be.
Speaker 1: If you had to have contributed, I would guess to
Speaker 1: the picking of the ring in.
Speaker 2: Some way, the kind of rings she would like, the
Speaker 2: size of rings she would like. I mean, most women
Speaker 2: drop really heavy hints if they don't go shopping with
Speaker 2: the boyfriend. It's very much like, Wow, I really like that,
Speaker 2: you know, So I do think.
Speaker 1: What do you like?
Speaker 2: I'm simple? As I pointed out.
Speaker 1: Both our producers like, no, really, what do you like?
Speaker 1: You know?
Speaker 2: I I do like simple, I do like elegance, and
Speaker 2: I don't like flashy.
Speaker 1: So what is that?
Speaker 2: I don't know. I don't have an idea of it.
Speaker 2: I mean it's funny, oh shape, you know, I really
Speaker 2: really like. I don't know. I don't even need a diamond.
Speaker 2: I really A band is fine question with me.
Speaker 3: Yes, So, being on a second marriage, do you think
Speaker 3: buying an engagement ring would deter a couple from getting
Speaker 3: married again? Officially?
Speaker 1: First of all, it would be the third marriage.
Speaker 2: I mean, if you're asking for a friend that's something
Speaker 2: else this would be so yeah, I mean my I
Speaker 2: think it's one of those when it is your first
Speaker 2: and hopefully it's your last engagement and wedding, I think
Speaker 2: maybe there's more of an emphasis placed on all of
Speaker 2: those traditional things, including an engagement ring. I don't feel
Speaker 2: that way now. For me, it's about the relationship and
Speaker 2: it's about the the commitment. It really isn't about the
Speaker 2: symbol of it. But I totally get it the first
Speaker 2: time and hopefully for most people the last time around,
Speaker 2: it is important and it does signify something and there
Speaker 2: something beautiful too, So I get why there are so
Speaker 2: many expectations and so much money spent on these types
Speaker 2: of of of I guess that's just like a symbol
Speaker 2: of your commitment. I don't really place a lot of
Speaker 2: value on that anymore. Just truthfully, I don't on the
Speaker 2: traditions of it, well, yes, on the traditions of it
Speaker 2: and having the ring, I just for me, that's not
Speaker 2: it's not it's not even in my head. I couldn't
Speaker 2: even tell you what I would want or what I
Speaker 2: would what I would choose or yeah, and I wouldn't
Speaker 2: want anybody to break the bank or spend money they
Speaker 2: don't have ever.
Speaker 1: Okay, somebody checked the time code on that he wants.
Speaker 1: And we keep referring to these shows and they're they're
Speaker 1: wildly entertaining, silly at times, but there's so fascinating to
Speaker 1: listen to people talk about marriage and what they want
Speaker 1: in their expectations. We're sitting here a whole conversation based
Speaker 1: around a ring, right, and an engagement ring, and that
Speaker 1: didn't go well, and you were just saying about the
Speaker 1: traditions and first time around you were into this and
Speaker 1: maybe not so more much. Now what do we always say? Now?
Speaker 1: And hearing people discuss their relationships, they're focused so much
Speaker 1: on I want a husband, I want a wife. This
Speaker 1: is my dream wedding, this is my dream ring. So
Speaker 1: much emphasis is put on the wedding and these traditions
Speaker 1: and not enough on the actual relationship, the marriage. We
Speaker 1: were talking about this this is our latest podcast. Right,
Speaker 1: people have bad moments in a relationship, but that could
Speaker 1: be a great relationship just to have some bad moments.
Speaker 1: There are other relationships that are bad relationships and have
Speaker 1: some great moments.
Speaker 2: Yep.
Speaker 1: Every once in a while. Don't ignore the fact that
Speaker 1: you got a bad relationship, and we can't ignore the
Speaker 1: fact that we got a great one just because we
Speaker 1: have a couple of bad moments. And that is what
Speaker 1: we have noticed is missing all the time as we
Speaker 1: watch people communicate in relationships. And so this is another
Speaker 1: we're talking about all this and money and this and that.
Speaker 1: That's really not where the focus should be. And I
Speaker 1: get it. Yes, we had to go through a lot
Speaker 1: of experience and difficult experiences to get here. But I
Speaker 1: could recommend to anybody you should not want to get
Speaker 1: married until you find somebody you want to get married too.
Speaker 1: Those are two different thing, right, people are twenty five
Speaker 1: now and single, thirty and single, whatever. I want to
Speaker 1: get married. I want to get married and want to
Speaker 1: get married. Emma, you want to get married one day? Yes, okay,
Speaker 1: I encourage you to change that thinking. Right, It sounds good,
Speaker 1: It sounds like a fantasy. But there's gonna be somebody
Speaker 1: that comes along in your life and you're going to
Speaker 1: say I want to marry him instead of just wanting
Speaker 1: to get married. And I could absolutely say that about you.
Speaker 1: You're not going back and forth about this all the time,
Speaker 1: like I want to marry you. I don't need to,
Speaker 1: but I want to be married too, and that's such
Speaker 1: a different thing as we sit here and talk about
Speaker 1: engagement rings and joint account Yeah.
Speaker 2: I mean, it's interesting having gone through this now both
Speaker 2: of us twice, and I know that can be joke material,
Speaker 2: but I actually think it's been such hard earned. God,
Speaker 2: I mean just I've learned so much through going through
Speaker 2: both of those relationships and now being in this one
Speaker 2: with you. And to your point, we all get caught
Speaker 2: up in the traditions and in the expectations and in
Speaker 2: what we think we're supposed to do or what looks
Speaker 2: like the next thing to do. But interestingly, now with
Speaker 2: the choice totally in front of us to get married
Speaker 2: or not for us, we're kind of on the fence
Speaker 2: and laughing about it because it doesn't matter because we
Speaker 2: know we want to be with each other, we want
Speaker 2: to marry each other. We don't have to necessarily get
Speaker 2: married because of what that represents. It's almost for everyone
Speaker 2: else and not for you, And so I just we've
Speaker 2: been watching these shows and it's and I get it.
Speaker 2: I've been swept up in it. We all have. But
Speaker 2: it's about almost the you know, going through these moments
Speaker 2: in life that you look forward to maybe as a
Speaker 2: young girl or a young boy and then getting to
Speaker 2: do those things, but it's not as focused on the
Speaker 2: relationship and the person and what comes after the wedding.
Speaker 2: All of that somehow gets lost in the shuffles so
Speaker 2: many times, and then you're like, and in these shows
Speaker 2: they say, oh, man, this isn't what I thought it
Speaker 2: was gonna be. Yeah, this isn't what I signed up
Speaker 2: for because the focus hasn't been on the person. So yes,
Speaker 2: and I'm not faulting, cause we've all been there, and
Speaker 2: I get the excitement of all of that and the
Speaker 2: ring and the wedding dress and all of that. But
Speaker 2: at the end of the day, it's about the relationship
Speaker 2: and most importantly, it's about the communication. And that's what's
Speaker 2: missing in this specific story is the communication.
Speaker 1: Isn't that something we've gone all and talked about all
Speaker 1: this That problem could have been solved with talking yep,
Speaker 1: ibby damn.
Speaker 2: Talking about money, talking about what you have and talking
Speaker 2: about what you don't have. And that's okay too, you know.
Speaker 2: I think, like you said, it's hard for men to
Speaker 2: open up about not maybe having the amount of money
Speaker 2: they want to have or And there's so many times
Speaker 2: you see people not disclosing the debt they have because
Speaker 2: when you marry someone, you don't just get their bank account,
Speaker 2: you get their credit score and you get their debt
Speaker 2: and that all is your responsibility too when you get married.
Speaker 2: That people don't think about. So having these conversations about
Speaker 2: money is very important.
Speaker 1: Well, my credit score was higher and my debt was
Speaker 1: lower before I bought the engagement ring.
Speaker 2: Ah, yep, all of that matters. It all contributes to
Speaker 2: the end game. And if you're in it together, it
Speaker 2: is about figuring it out together. I mean, do you
Speaker 2: consider yourselves partners in every way? Because marriage, gosh, it
Speaker 2: started out as a business. Wasn't it a financial enterprise
Speaker 2: to begin with? Isn't that really a lot of the
Speaker 2: reasons why we even have marriage. So to not acknowledge
Speaker 2: that there is a financial aspect to it and it
Speaker 2: is a business agreement in a way. You're merging in
Speaker 2: every way, including financially. But you and if you don't
Speaker 2: talk about the finances behind it, what you bring to it,
Speaker 2: that's the recipe for disaster.
Speaker 1: Average costs of a an engagement ring in this country,
Speaker 1: your guests would be how much handy.
Speaker 4: I'd probably go with like their twenty thousand.
Speaker 1: What where the hell did you grow up? Jesus Christ,
Speaker 1: what would you say the average cost of a wedding
Speaker 1: ring engagement ring in this country?
Speaker 3: Fifty thousand?
Speaker 1: What?
Speaker 2: Okay, I'm telling you I already like my first one
Speaker 2: was three thousand, and I didn't even really have one
Speaker 2: the second time, so I did it was I didn't
Speaker 2: So I was just.
Speaker 4: Thinking, like inflation, maybe I am.
Speaker 2: I am living in another world. If that's real. If
Speaker 2: those numbers are close to being real.
Speaker 1: Wow, they are not.
Speaker 2: Okay, they are actually Like I was, like, I really
Speaker 2: think my one was three thousand dollars in my second
Speaker 2: one didn't exist.
Speaker 1: They are not close to being accurate. Actually, good, I
Speaker 1: feel better now they're actually higher. I'm kidding. I'm kid,
Speaker 1: I'm kidding. I'm getting it almost still out of my
Speaker 1: im that the average is about fifty five hundred bucks. Okay,
Speaker 1: the average in the country or a wedding for an
Speaker 1: engagement ring. Now, what area of the country would you
Speaker 1: say they're most expensive? Who's spending the most in?
Speaker 2: What? Mukers?
Speaker 1: The mid Atlantic area is actually where so up in
Speaker 1: our region? So that's about seven grand average. And then
Speaker 1: the Midwest. In the Midwest is the lowest average or
Speaker 1: engagement rings about forty nine hundred bucks.
Speaker 2: But still that's more than I thought. If you would
Speaker 2: ask me, I would have guessed thirty five hundred.
Speaker 1: And that's a lot of money for anywhere in anybody.
Speaker 1: This three old everybody's familiard. They still do the three
Speaker 1: month thing.
Speaker 2: Yeah, three months salary, that's what they say. Well, yeah, well,
Speaker 2: then maybe I guess Andy and Ma's numbers would be
Speaker 2: closer to correct if you talked about this region.
Speaker 1: Yes, but the three month through and people still go
Speaker 1: by that, and a lot of guys I would assume still
Speaker 1: go by that. But it the experts will tell you
Speaker 1: stop stop stop thinking about that number. Stop thinking about
Speaker 1: a three month salary rule. They say it was just
Speaker 1: made up by the industry, the jewelry industry, to try
Speaker 1: to get people to spend money a higher amount on it.
Speaker 2: I also think this is a cautionary tale because we
Speaker 2: do know the close to fifty percent of all marriages
Speaker 2: end in divorce. If you think you've got some valuable
Speaker 2: property in a ring, no matter how much you've spent,
Speaker 2: wait till you have to try to sell that said ring.
Speaker 2: It is pennies to what you actually purchased. So these
Speaker 2: these these beautiful pieces of jewelry don't appreciate. In fact,
Speaker 2: it's like buying a car. The second you try to
Speaker 2: sell it after you've purchased it, it goes down significantly
Speaker 2: in value. So just just a little, just a little,
Speaker 2: what do you do.
Speaker 1: With that ring? Does somebody want a ring that has
Speaker 1: a divorce on it? No?
Speaker 2: I think you know you can sell it back to
Speaker 2: a jeweler. You can, you know, give it to your daughter,
Speaker 2: you know whatever. But yes, it's tough.
Speaker 4: One question I have so like, I know, promise rings
Speaker 4: have become like a really big thing. How do you
Speaker 4: guys feel about that? Because they know, like Larisa Pippin
Speaker 4: and Marcus Jordan did that and like and they're together.
Speaker 2: I actually they might be back together again.
Speaker 1: Okay, I'm just kidding in talking.
Speaker 4: About both like the financial strain and engagement ring can
Speaker 4: put on you and like the pressures of marriage kind
Speaker 4: of staying away. Ah, Like it is a promise ring,
Speaker 4: a compromise, I guess that's what I'm saying.
Speaker 1: It seems so weird to to plan another prenuptial agreements
Speaker 1: out there to plan for the potential demise of your marriage.
Speaker 1: As you're planning for the marriage, right, I am buying
Speaker 1: a ring just in case I get divorced. I am
Speaker 1: going to only do a promise ring because things might
Speaker 1: not work out. I get it that is probably the
Speaker 1: safe thing to do given the numbers, But that is
Speaker 1: something about that feels odd as I as I sit
Speaker 1: here with you with a ring around your neck.
Speaker 2: Yes, because we had that same conversation, so yes, and.
Speaker 1: You were going to do this. Okay, Wall, let's not
Speaker 1: do this. Okay, we'll skip it, but go ahead. I
Speaker 1: don't have to answer his question.
Speaker 2: I think any gesture of wanting to be together is beautiful,
Speaker 2: and I think it's a beautiful thing to give or
Speaker 2: to receive. And it's a promise, and there's nothing legally
Speaker 2: binding you to that person. But I actually, as we've discussed,
Speaker 2: don't mind that concept at all. What to just promise
Speaker 2: to be together? We don't have to have a judge,
Speaker 2: you know, sign something.
Speaker 1: Weren't you all in here for the episode in which
Speaker 1: she said he wanted you'll hear for that, right, Okay?
Speaker 2: But I think there's something beautiful about that, I've told
Speaker 2: you how much beautiful, I said, beautiful, No, and I
Speaker 2: fully discussed how much I love Goldie Hawn and Kurt
Speaker 2: Russell's relationship and they are not married.
Speaker 1: And then what did she say? Guys right after that?
Speaker 1: You you did not get away from the idea that, Yeah,
Speaker 1: I intellectually, I know it's silly, but still I would
Speaker 1: prefer a marriage and a judge to sign off it,
Speaker 1: because it's it's it's it's it's more than a promise.
Speaker 1: It's harder to break up. You actually said, I did.
Speaker 2: I did, but I still can say that I think
Speaker 2: the idea of the promise ring and the choice to
Speaker 2: be together is a beautiful one.
Speaker 1: All right, Well, we are rooting for this couple. Who
Speaker 1: knows what happens to them. Maybe we'll we will get
Speaker 1: a chance for them. But I'm always all, I just do.
Speaker 1: I root for love and happiness, and I hope they
Speaker 1: get this worked out, and if they don't, then I
Speaker 1: hope they're okay down the road. I just it's it's
Speaker 1: it's tough. I hate to hear them starting out this way.
Speaker 2: But perhaps by her even bringing this up and having
Speaker 2: a conversation about it, we're talking about it, maybe they
Speaker 2: will have better conversations in the future. This is a
Speaker 2: big warning, sound like, whoa screwed up here? We didn't
Speaker 2: have this conversation then, but let's do it now and
Speaker 2: let's keep doing it. And I think it's also something
Speaker 2: I was surprised and then I had to reflect back
Speaker 2: and be honest about how little I've talked about money
Speaker 2: and how often it has bread resentment and frustration, and
Speaker 2: you don't discuss it for whatever reason because it feels icky,
Speaker 2: it feels tacky, right, But the truth is it's such
Speaker 2: an important part of how you live your lives together,
Speaker 2: and if you can't talk about that, there's probably bigger
Speaker 2: problems you have to deal with as well. So it's
Speaker 2: just a reminder to communicate and to talk about stuff.
Speaker 2: Talking about the hard stuff is how you get through
Speaker 2: the big things in life. And my mom always said this,
Speaker 2: and we've talked about this. You're never fighting about what
Speaker 2: you're fighting about. So you can fight about money, you
Speaker 2: can fight about whatever, but at the end of the day,
Speaker 2: it's pointing to a larger communication issue that you probably have.
Speaker 1: Who are you fighting about? Just just yesterday we were
Speaker 1: fighting about something.
Speaker 2: I don't remember. I remember having a lovely day.
Speaker 1: No, no, something on. We were disagreeing about something here
Speaker 1: that was so ah. It was who ordering dinner, ordering
Speaker 1: lunch or you say, I'd never tell you what my
Speaker 1: order is, right, So we were fighting about that. So
Speaker 1: what is our bigger issue? Because that's we were fighting
Speaker 1: about something else? As your mom would say, right, you're
Speaker 1: not really fighting about what you're fighting about. So what
Speaker 1: are we really fighting about?
Speaker 2: Rose, I don't know, right, Can you tell me?
Speaker 1: No, me not sharing my appetizer order is a symbol
Speaker 1: of a bigger problem.
Speaker 2: Well, see, here's the deal. I don't think we were fighting.
Speaker 2: I think we were teasing each other, which is different.
Speaker 2: If we were actually fighting, then maybe I could come
Speaker 2: up with what was behind it. But I think we
Speaker 2: were just teasing.
Speaker 1: All right, Well, Andy, we appreciate you all as always
Speaker 1: chiming in here, and folks, look help you. You know what,
Speaker 1: There's got to be a takeaway. Everybody goes through this
Speaker 1: in relationships, so hopefully there's some takeaway which you can
Speaker 1: always find us and chime in on the conversation if
Speaker 1: you'd like. On our official instagram, the show's instagram at
Speaker 1: Amy and t day podcast you can find us as well,
Speaker 1: But until next time, roll up your parting thoughts to
Speaker 1: all those lovers out there, talk
Speaker 2: To each other.