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Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie Hands and welcome to Stuff. I've

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Speaker 1: never told your production of I Heart Radios how stuff works.

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Speaker 1: So was a third attempt. Well, it is an exciting day,

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Speaker 1: so perhaps that's why we're making your mistakes because it

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Speaker 1: is the final female first of twenty nineteen of a decade. Yes,

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Speaker 1: which means you're once again joined I for our good

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Speaker 1: friend and co workers. Thank you. I didn't even think

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Speaker 1: that this was the last one of the decade, and

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Speaker 1: I'm like, oh, this is the last one of the year,

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Speaker 1: but no, it's a whole decade that's ending right now

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Speaker 1: right this very Yes, time compresses in my world really easily. Um. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I am grateful to be here as always, so glad

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Speaker 1: you're here. Yeah, it's a bit of a mess in

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Speaker 1: the studio. So many peanut butter. There's a lot of

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Speaker 1: peanut butter, a lot of beverages, a lot of beveraging.

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Speaker 1: But that I feel like that's kind of status quo

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Speaker 1: part of course when you come use Well, this season

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Speaker 1: is about abundance as well, It's true, and we're collecting gifts,

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Speaker 1: so the more the merrier. Correct, Yes, thank you punch

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Speaker 1: peanut butter. See are you counch peanut butter. Is the

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Speaker 1: thing is is that going to somebody's Christmas present? You know?

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Speaker 1: Is that going to something? I could do this because

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Speaker 1: through various sponsorships, I now have no exaggeration a creative

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Speaker 1: peanut butter. So I mean, I guess if I want

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Speaker 1: to be really lazy in my gift giving, I could

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Speaker 1: just start handing out peanut butter. I'm going to give

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Speaker 1: it to a food kitchen. Yes, yes, yes, um, and

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Speaker 1: we are very excited to have you as always eaves.

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Speaker 1: Um it is this is our final final chord of

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Speaker 1: the year. Is it will congrats to y'all people to

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Speaker 1: rest a little right right. I've had people stopped like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: so we're recording this weekend. I was like, oh no,

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Speaker 1: oh no, yeah, it's I guess there's two weeks left

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Speaker 1: in the year as we record this. So this is

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Speaker 1: pretty good. I'm pretty happy. I think we did well. Yeah. Yes,

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Speaker 1: And I'm also pretty excited to talk about the person

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Speaker 1: not Todays. I am too. I'm really excited to talk

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Speaker 1: about Bungoo. Who's who we're talking about today. Um, We're

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Speaker 1: going way back in history for this one, yes, almost

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Speaker 1: to the BC year it's kind of dipping there for

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Speaker 1: a little bit. I'm always excited to go into the vcs,

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Speaker 1: you know, especially when we get into the twenties. Let's

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Speaker 1: look all the way back. Let's go all the way back. Yes.

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Speaker 1: And she's known as China's first female historian. Yes, China's

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Speaker 1: first female historian, and a very influential scholar in general

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Speaker 1: at the time. Not just female scholar, but she was

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Speaker 1: also one of like the only female scholars early on,

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Speaker 1: the only female historians early on. Yeah. And I was

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Speaker 1: reading some of the stuff that she wrote, and it's fascinating,

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Speaker 1: isn't it. Yes, isn't it fascinating, especially to look at

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Speaker 1: it from my point of view as an American, as

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Speaker 1: an American woman living in I'm already ahead of myself. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: but it's um. Once the twentieth century rolled around, people

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Speaker 1: like viewed it a lot differently than they did during

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Speaker 1: her time, which she was born in forty five, so

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Speaker 1: early early ideas. Many people had a lot of thoughts

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Speaker 1: on over the years. Yes, And as we always say

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Speaker 1: on these these episodes, these females first context is always

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Speaker 1: really important when we're talking about this. And the spoiler

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Speaker 1: not to confuse anybody. She wrote things about how basically

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Speaker 1: how to be a woman in China, and so it's

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Speaker 1: just an amazing window into what it was like back then.

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Speaker 1: And yeah, now with our eyes so different, Yeah, well

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Speaker 1: we're I mean, I'm not a historian, and I imagine

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Speaker 1: a lot of people here aren't historians. So it's a

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Speaker 1: really interesting as a civilian, non historian to look at

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Speaker 1: things that happened this long ago and in cultures outside

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Speaker 1: of my own that I'm not typically studying, and like

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Speaker 1: developing my own perspective around that and learning a lot

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Speaker 1: more about it. It's so easy to get caught up

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Speaker 1: in the way that we think today. So yeah, once

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Speaker 1: the twentieth century rolled around, the views on her started

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Speaker 1: getting a lot more complicated. Like women started thinking a

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Speaker 1: lot differently around that time, women's lip movements popped up,

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Speaker 1: and people who were in that realm saw her as

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Speaker 1: an important scholar and figure in women's education before then,

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Speaker 1: and then later on others started thinking that she was

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Speaker 1: perpetuating the oppression of women. Yeah, so it's a complicated history.

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Speaker 1: And I also think that on the other hand, and

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Speaker 1: in conversations beyond just ones about history, that we can

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Speaker 1: get in a space where we're like, Okay, because this

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Speaker 1: happened at this time, or because this happened in this context,

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Speaker 1: that means that we can excuse those things, or like

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Speaker 1: this person was just a person of their time, and

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Speaker 1: this person was just doing the same thing that everybody

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Speaker 1: else did, so that means it's excusable when it's acceptable.

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Speaker 1: So I mean, I just it's just always important obviously,

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Speaker 1: always try to gain more knowledge about things, because when

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Speaker 1: we're more knowledgeable than we were, more able to have

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Speaker 1: nuanced and deeper conversations about things. But obviously, as we know,

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Speaker 1: the world changes a lot, like the world changes a

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Speaker 1: lot in the world is also at one specific time

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Speaker 1: very different everywhere. And I just think having this conversation

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Speaker 1: about her after we featured a lot of women who

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Speaker 1: are kind of without much doubt or without much hesitation

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Speaker 1: or without much like discrepant see our controversy, like this

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Speaker 1: person did good things and contributed to feminist history in

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Speaker 1: a positive, moralistic, positive way. Like that's not how it

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Speaker 1: always was, and we had to evolve to be able

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Speaker 1: to get to where we are today. And it took

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Speaker 1: a long time before things changed from how it was

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Speaker 1: in Bunchow's time, Well, it was literally over nineteen hundred

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Speaker 1: years ago. And then also in context, that culture has

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Speaker 1: so much history even then in comparison to again when

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Speaker 1: we talked about the U s, it's so young, and

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Speaker 1: like that's not relevant to where we are to what

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Speaker 1: we know of the history of the land today because

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Speaker 1: it's back at that point in time, This land, when

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Speaker 1: we talk about America, was a completely different existence. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: the population of itself, right, and then China, China's history

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Speaker 1: just they recorded so much. There's so much recorded history

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Speaker 1: in China. Let's get into Okay, let's get into buncho.

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Speaker 1: So she was born in the town of online fou Phone, China,

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Speaker 1: and that was around the year of forty five, and

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Speaker 1: that place was around shen Yang and Shanshi province. That

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Speaker 1: was during the Eastern Han which was also known as

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Speaker 1: the Later Han dynasty. And so one of her ancestors

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Speaker 1: made a bunch of money raising livestock after the fall

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Speaker 1: of the Joo dynasty, and eventually they got money and

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Speaker 1: the family got into scholarship as well. So scholarship is

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Speaker 1: a huge part of her family's history, part of her elitism.

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Speaker 1: How they got there because a lot of the time

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Speaker 1: people valued scholarship. So someone in her lineage whose story

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Speaker 1: had a big influence on her was her great aunt

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Speaker 1: Bungee and that was her court title. Her personal name

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Speaker 1: is not recorded, but and breathe. Bungie was a sort

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Speaker 1: of Emperor Chung and she was close to him. So

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Speaker 1: there's a story in her life that they say, like

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Speaker 1: is one of the things that made her kind of

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Speaker 1: a big name, and that she once turned down writing

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Speaker 1: in his sedan chair with him when he asked so

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Speaker 1: because that was against norms. She kind of like she

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Speaker 1: was like, no, I don't want to do it. So

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Speaker 1: that earned her favor as a respected woman of high

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Speaker 1: moral values and wisdom. The fact that she said no

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Speaker 1: to it, even though it was kind of like this

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Speaker 1: flashy thing that she could do, that said her decision

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Speaker 1: could have been more practical than it was moralistic, as

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Speaker 1: she could have just been trying to avoid revenge plots

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Speaker 1: of the envious people around her. You know, survival is

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Speaker 1: important people either way. That idea of womanly humility which

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Speaker 1: show up in Buneau's work later. And so bun Biao

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Speaker 1: was Bungeau's father, and he was a scholar and an administrator.

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Speaker 1: He was really into confus Susianism, which will come back

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Speaker 1: to a little bit later. We'll talk a little about

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Speaker 1: what that was, and he stuck to the moral classics.

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Speaker 1: He went through several official positions in the Han dynasty,

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Speaker 1: but he wasn't so hot on those, so he kind

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Speaker 1: of skipped around from one to the next, and he

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Speaker 1: favored scholarship, so he wasn't able to maintain his family's wealth.

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Speaker 1: Though I can say I have no idea what it

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Speaker 1: feels like to be an elite, but I can identify

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Speaker 1: with that a lot because I just feel like I'm

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Speaker 1: a person who's like I don't care how much. But well,

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Speaker 1: I'm a writer, right, So I mean that's like I

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Speaker 1: don't care how much money I make. I'm just gonna

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Speaker 1: do the art thing, even though scholarship is very different.

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Speaker 1: But yeah. He died when Bunga was young. She had

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Speaker 1: two older twin brothers who were Bung Chow and Bung Goo,

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Speaker 1: and Bunau drew a lot of inspiration from them. Too.

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Speaker 1: Was Too was in the military in Central Asia for

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Speaker 1: over thirty years, and Goo was an avid reader and

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Speaker 1: a scholar who wrote holmes and researched history. Following in

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Speaker 1: his father's footsteps, so she wrote poems to later, so

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Speaker 1: she got some inspiration from him. So she had her

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Speaker 1: style name Bunao style name was Hibun and her given

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Speaker 1: name was g And she had this love for reading,

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Speaker 1: so as we know, that's something that's really big in

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Speaker 1: her upbringing and in her history. She her parents made

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Speaker 1: sure that she was really well educated. So she was

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Speaker 1: taught Confucianism, which is a system of social and ethical

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Speaker 1: philosophy that originated in China, and it really stressed the

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Speaker 1: importance of correct behavior and loyalty and obedience to hierarchy.

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Speaker 1: And obviously I want to say that I'm I'm really

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Speaker 1: reducing this like it's a lot more to it. We

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Speaker 1: don't have time for that, clearly, and I'm nor am

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Speaker 1: i Confucianism expert. It also stressed humanus and social harmony.

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Speaker 1: So while it was a lot about social rituals and

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Speaker 1: conformity kind of on the surface, it was also about

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Speaker 1: building contents and character over lifetime. Punjab was also taught Taoism,

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Speaker 1: which was a Chinese philosophy that was born from observing

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Speaker 1: the natural world, and it really emphasized being in step

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Speaker 1: or in line or in tune with the Tao or

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Speaker 1: the natural order of the universe, so it wasn't necessarily

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Speaker 1: about strict rituals like Confucianism was. But she was she

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Speaker 1: was educated. She was her parents were made sure that

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Speaker 1: they gave her, you know, a good education growing up,

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Speaker 1: and she learned to write. She learned about history, like

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Speaker 1: I said earlier, she learned about poetry and the classics

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Speaker 1: and those She wrote a lot of poetry. Few of

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Speaker 1: her poems still exist, though you can read some of them.

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Speaker 1: She wrote court poetry a lot, and a lot of

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Speaker 1: it got into metaphysical stuff later on, as people were

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Speaker 1: gearing their poetry towards that others who were writing poetry.

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Speaker 1: She was often also called to court to teach women

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Speaker 1: in the palace, and she taught them poetry, history and literature.

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Speaker 1: And she was also given access to the Imperial Library,

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Speaker 1: which was something that not everybody got, but a lot

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Speaker 1: of important works in there, obviously, and it was important.

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Speaker 1: As I said earlier, she did court poetry because it

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Speaker 1: was important to mark things that happened in court life

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Speaker 1: with poetry. And the Emperor was a fan of her work,

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Speaker 1: and so she wrote it some and Bungeau also advised

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Speaker 1: Empress Dowager Doom on affairs of state, though much of

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Speaker 1: the advice she gave is unknown because it wasn't recorded.

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Speaker 1: It was happening in private, and she got married around

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Speaker 1: the age of fourteen, but not much is known about

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Speaker 1: her husband, whose name was chaw sh Shoe, and it's

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Speaker 1: known that he came from the same district as the

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Speaker 1: Bunn family, which was often the case for people in gentry.

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Speaker 1: They had several children together, but her husband died early

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Speaker 1: on in the marriage. She didn't get remarried, which is

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Speaker 1: something that comes up in her writing um, which we'll

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Speaker 1: get too later, that you had on all those moral

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Speaker 1: prescriptions which she was talking about earlier, which is going

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Speaker 1: to be the major chunk of this um for obvious reasons,

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Speaker 1: very very interesting, which I'm sure y'all will have thoughts

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Speaker 1: on the things and that um. Even though it was

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Speaker 1: not against custom for women to get remarried, they often

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Speaker 1: did after their spouse died. But you know, this could

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Speaker 1: have been due to her Her not getting remarried could

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Speaker 1: have been due to her strict code of ethics, because

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Speaker 1: she may have done so to remain loyal to her

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Speaker 1: deceased husband, and so This is where we get into

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Speaker 1: her writing work in her history and her history research.

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Speaker 1: Her father started working on history of the former Han,

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Speaker 1: this big text history on the former Han dynasty, and

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Speaker 1: so the former Han dynasty was the first two hundred

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Speaker 1: years at the Han dynasty when Chanan was the capital

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Speaker 1: of the empire, and her brother Baron Gou continued work

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Speaker 1: on the history. After her father died and Bung Goo

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Speaker 1: also died, Bile working on it, and from that point

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Speaker 1: Bungao took over the task and she wrote some of

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Speaker 1: the last parts of it and did some of the

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Speaker 1: final editing. Even though her exact extent of contribution to

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Speaker 1: the work has been debated by some scholars. Some have

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Speaker 1: said that she given her the credit of co authoring it,

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Speaker 1: saying she was the one who did so much work

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Speaker 1: because she did all these chronological tables towards the end.

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Speaker 1: But that's neither here nor there. And in the larger

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Speaker 1: context of this conversation, she put in work on the books,

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Speaker 1: so she she was integral and creating the book and

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Speaker 1: getting it out to people. So the completed book was

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Speaker 1: released around one of lemon See. This book was very complicated.

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Speaker 1: There were a lot of moving parts to it, and

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Speaker 1: it wasn't so easy for everybody to understand, so that

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Speaker 1: meant that the book had to be taught to people,

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Speaker 1: or people had to be guided along in the process

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Speaker 1: of trying to understand it. Um and Bungao even taught

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Speaker 1: the scholar Majong the book since it was so plex

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Speaker 1: and it required that guidance to understand it. So it's

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Speaker 1: been considered by some historians the second most important or

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Speaker 1: most famous of China's formal dynastic histories. The second there

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Speaker 1: was this guy I can't remember his name, like Cmchen

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Speaker 1: who wrote other imperial dynasties before that, but under the

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Speaker 1: Han Emperor Wu, Confucianism became accepted as state ideology and orthodoxy.

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Speaker 1: So from that point the imperial state use that philosophy

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Speaker 1: as a means to maintain law and order and to

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Speaker 1: maintain the status quo. So our favorite party, I'm ready

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Speaker 1: admonitions for women a k A. Lessons for women, and

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Speaker 1: I'm going to try to pronounce this neogio. Yes, it

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Speaker 1: works a book um on a female propriety that she wrote,

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Speaker 1: and I call it a book, but it's only really

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Speaker 1: several pages long, so it's it's really not long at all.

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Speaker 1: So a lot is communicated in it. A lot. I

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Speaker 1: can say a lot in so many words. Yes you can,

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Speaker 1: Yes you can. Um. It kind of reminds me of

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Speaker 1: did you did you all do that thing when you're

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Speaker 1: growing up? Or you had to watch that video and

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Speaker 1: it like taught you posture, you had to put the

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Speaker 1: book on top of your head, how to be a

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Speaker 1: woman essentially, you know. I never, I never. I never

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Speaker 1: watched that video, but I did go to etiquette school.

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Speaker 1: It wasn't that. It wasn't terrible. I don't know. I

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Speaker 1: feel like I've brought this up with you all before,

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Speaker 1: but maybe not. It wasn't. Um actually had a really

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Speaker 1: fun time in it. Um. You still remember the lessons? No, well,

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Speaker 1: I remember one okay, so one was some more very problematic,

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Speaker 1: but someone was where to put the forks on the tables?

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Speaker 1: That was one and that sticks into what I remember.

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Speaker 1: So it's kind of like a cotillion type of level

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Speaker 1: of stuff. Like eventually you go and graduate to become

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Speaker 1: a debutante. Is that what you're talking about? Not me,

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Speaker 1: not the one that I did. Yeah, it's similar to that,

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Speaker 1: but the one I did was much more like here's

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Speaker 1: this video on how to be a lady and it

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Speaker 1: involved posture, and yeah, really it was something that I did.

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Speaker 1: Actually really appreciated the camaraderie that I like made with

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Speaker 1: the other girls who were there at the time. That's

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Speaker 1: what I really liked about it because I wasn't expecting it.

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Speaker 1: I did not want to go when I did it.

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Speaker 1: My mom just put me in it, and I didn't

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Speaker 1: have that manners. So I'm trying to figure out why

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Speaker 1: she put me in it. I don't remember, but um,

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Speaker 1: I remember Chili from TLC being there for whatever. She

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Speaker 1: came and visited us to talk to us about girl things.

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Speaker 1: I guess I don't I don't know what girl things are,

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Speaker 1: and I don't know what she don't remember what she's saying,

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Speaker 1: but I remember her being there, So I don't know.

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Speaker 1: Take it with a grain of salt. How you feel

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Speaker 1: like it's made, What kind of person you feel like

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Speaker 1: it's made me? Because all together now, yeah, both of

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Speaker 1: you have me baffled. YEA, whether I'm a lady now

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Speaker 1: or not. I can't wait until you hear uh Bons

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Speaker 1: thoughts on vulgarity language become ready. I don't know that

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Speaker 1: you qualify. I don't not many people have them are

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Speaker 1: called the ladies. Let's keep going, So we're gonna stay

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Speaker 1: on this text for a while because it is her

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Speaker 1: magnum opus. Uh. There were previous works or Morality for

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Speaker 1: boys and men, but Lessons for Women was specifically aimed

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Speaker 1: to girls and women, since at the time men and

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Speaker 1: women's nature were thought to be fundamentally different from one another,

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Speaker 1: and because of that, so what their ethics be different

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Speaker 1: from one another? So the exact date is written is unknown,

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Speaker 1: though she's believed to have the gun writing it around

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Speaker 1: one or six. Buneau said in the intro to the

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Speaker 1: text that she wrote it to prepare her daughters for marriage,

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Speaker 1: but the fact that it was widely circulated says otherwise.

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Speaker 1: When so some context for this, which is always important.

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Speaker 1: When a woman got married, she left her family and

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Speaker 1: then went to live with her husband and in laws,

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Speaker 1: and Chinese families typically had several wives and concubines and

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Speaker 1: many children, and in Bungoo's text, the advice was for

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Speaker 1: women to subjugate themselves to the men, so the husband,

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Speaker 1: the brothers, the brothers in law, and father, father in law,

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Speaker 1: et cetera. And Lessons for Women codified those rules of behavior.

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Speaker 1: So before this point there wasn't a ton of instruction

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Speaker 1: regarding the duties and the virtues of women, but Bungoo

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Speaker 1: approached that subject through a lens of Confucianism. It's also

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Speaker 1: important to remember that it was a time of a

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Speaker 1: lot of transition and reform in China's history. So there

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Speaker 1: was the old feudal system, which sometimes afforded Chinese women

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Speaker 1: the opportunity to move up, sometimes afforded them the opportunity

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Speaker 1: to rule in powerful political positions. Um that was replaced

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Speaker 1: with the imperial system, and Confucianism at this time was

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Speaker 1: central to the Han court, and because of this, women's

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Speaker 1: role was considered inferior to men's. So that said, there

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Speaker 1: was social mobility in the culture, and there was an

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Speaker 1: emphasis on education and scholarship that did not change. And

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Speaker 1: because times were so turbulent, you know, politically, every socially,

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Speaker 1: everything that was happening at the time, it was important

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Speaker 1: to support this kind of Confucian lifestyle which provided a

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Speaker 1: sort of political order and social stability as the government

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Speaker 1: was doing declining and everything could be chaotic, and so

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Speaker 1: there were there was a way that gentry families used

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Speaker 1: that Confucianism to say, hey, look everything's orderly for me,

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Speaker 1: and separate themselves from everywhere else by adhering to that

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Speaker 1: those straight guidelines of those rituals. So that's a little

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Speaker 1: bit of context for lessons for women. We have some

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Speaker 1: more with our conversation with Eves. The first we have

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Speaker 1: a quick break for word from our sponsor, and we're back,

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Speaker 1: Thank you sponsor. There are seven sections in the text,

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Speaker 1: and like we said earlier, it's about like a page

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Speaker 1: per section, like it's very short. They're the first three

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Speaker 1: are called servile and meek, husband and wife, respectful and cautious,

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Speaker 1: giving leeway for translations, and they reinforce the importance of

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Speaker 1: women taking a subservient role. And the next two are

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Speaker 1: wifely behaviors and wholehearted devotion and there about how lives

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Speaker 1: should behave. The last two are absolute obedience specifically as

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Speaker 1: a daughter in law and harmony with younger sisters in law.

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Speaker 1: And the gist of those are essays, and he smiling,

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Speaker 1: She's like, I feel like you've got a lot going

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Speaker 1: on in your hand right now. Oh yeah, yes, So

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna read an excerpt from these um so we

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Speaker 1: get a sense of what she was talking about. In

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Speaker 1: these a woman ought to have four qualifications womanly virtue,

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Speaker 1: womanly words, womanly bearing, and womanly work. Now, what is

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Speaker 1: called womanly virtue need not be brilliant ability exceptionally different

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Speaker 1: from others. Womanly words need be neither clever in debate

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Speaker 1: nor keen in conversation. Womanly appearance requires neither a pretty

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Speaker 1: nor a perfect face in form. Womanly work need not

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Speaker 1: be work done more skillfully than that of others. Um. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so there's a lot um more that's that's kind of

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Speaker 1: like a summaria taste of the things that she says,

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Speaker 1: because she gets into a lot more specificity she does that.

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Speaker 1: The section that's some momently qualifications goes on to say

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Speaker 1: that a woman has to guard her chastity, she has

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Speaker 1: to speak at appropriate times, and not to love gossip

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Speaker 1: and silly laughter. According to the tests, these qualities are

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Speaker 1: really easy to have. You just desire them deeply enough. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and even need to leave now your silly giggles are

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Speaker 1: too much. Well, we haven't even talked about the vulgarity.

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Speaker 1: I'm annoying that part. Yeah, it's really just to have

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Speaker 1: it written out like this is how you be a

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Speaker 1: good woman. And essentially it is you be quiet and

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Speaker 1: I love, don't speak too keenly, like, don't be too

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Speaker 1: educated just and she was one of the more educated

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Speaker 1: women of the time, so that is interesting. Yeah, she said,

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Speaker 1: you don't have to be educated, you don't have to

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Speaker 1: be intelligent, you don't have to be that type of

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Speaker 1: person to be humble basically, and that's the key. As

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Speaker 1: long as you're humble, yes, that you're good. Yes, humble

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Speaker 1: equals I mean there are a lot of people today

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Speaker 1: who could use more humility. This is true. And to

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Speaker 1: be fair, even though this was way back when, I've

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Speaker 1: heard this in different formats in the Christian world as

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Speaker 1: I grew up in it. Once again, not bashing religion

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Speaker 1: in any way, but this is actually fairly not so shocking,

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Speaker 1: and it makes to me this makes more sense because

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Speaker 1: of the time frame. Is it great? No? Is it

401
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Speaker 1: still like? Oh God, why? For sure? But I've not

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Speaker 1: It wasn't more than five years ago that I've seen

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Speaker 1: that in like Christian texts as this is who you

404
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Speaker 1: are as a woman, yet subservient, kind woman. Yeah. To

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Speaker 1: put it in terms of morality, like this makes you

406
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Speaker 1: good to be good to be a good person, you

407
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Speaker 1: have to be less than to be subservient men. It

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Speaker 1: is sort of shocking, and that it isn't that far

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Speaker 1: off from Yeah, when I think about some lessons and

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Speaker 1: things I might have picked up from my etiquette class

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Speaker 1: or they're teaching, I think at fourteen, um that to

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Speaker 1: be a good woman, I have to sit quietly essentially

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Speaker 1: and know how to serve people at a table, and

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Speaker 1: that that makes me good and to host the party. Yeah. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: And I can imagine as you say, and during this

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Speaker 1: time there's a lot of transition and chaos and having something.

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Speaker 1: This reminds me of when the first cookbooks came out

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Speaker 1: and women just love them because it was it is

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Speaker 1: a resource in a way that they felt they could

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Speaker 1: control things in their life. And I can imagine that

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Speaker 1: women at this time we're like a hare had to

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Speaker 1: be a good woman and maybe I can like move

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Speaker 1: up or get a better situation than I have now.

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Speaker 1: And like you said earlier, she was a woman of

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Speaker 1: she had you know, she had privilege, so her experience

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Speaker 1: is a lot different than people who weren't in her situation.

427
00:26:25,080 --> 00:26:28,280
Speaker 1: When it comes to I need this order in my life. Well,

428
00:26:28,320 --> 00:26:30,399
Speaker 1: some people are worried about a little bit more basic

429
00:26:30,440 --> 00:26:34,240
Speaker 1: survival needs. So there is that as well to think about.

430
00:26:34,560 --> 00:26:36,359
Speaker 1: So I want to point out some more of the

431
00:26:36,440 --> 00:26:39,760
Speaker 1: things that she said in the text. She said, women

432
00:26:39,840 --> 00:26:43,600
Speaker 1: must always think of themselves. Last, widows should never remarried,

433
00:26:43,680 --> 00:26:46,680
Speaker 1: as we spoke about earlier. Women must be clean and neat,

434
00:26:47,119 --> 00:26:50,400
Speaker 1: and reading and education are as important for women as

435
00:26:50,440 --> 00:26:54,719
Speaker 1: they are for men, though later Confucian scholars would reject

436
00:26:54,720 --> 00:26:57,560
Speaker 1: this notion, and women's education went through a lot in

437
00:26:57,680 --> 00:27:03,880
Speaker 1: China after after bon Jo died and all that, all

438
00:27:03,920 --> 00:27:07,440
Speaker 1: that said in Lessons for Women, a wife wasn't just

439
00:27:07,600 --> 00:27:10,639
Speaker 1: a husband's servant, like that's not the only thing her

440
00:27:10,760 --> 00:27:15,040
Speaker 1: role was. Spouses shouldn't use harsh language, is one thing

441
00:27:15,119 --> 00:27:17,520
Speaker 1: she said in the text, And that they shouldn't resort

442
00:27:17,560 --> 00:27:21,040
Speaker 1: to domestic violence either, and that women don't have to

443
00:27:21,080 --> 00:27:23,680
Speaker 1: be super talented and like we said, early and intelligent,

444
00:27:23,800 --> 00:27:27,520
Speaker 1: but must be humble, chaste and diligent and obedient. H

445
00:27:28,160 --> 00:27:30,720
Speaker 1: And that's that. I thought that was interesting about the face.

446
00:27:31,160 --> 00:27:34,120
Speaker 1: It could be you didn't have to be beautiful, Yeah,

447
00:27:34,440 --> 00:27:40,440
Speaker 1: is that to be you know, pretty much quiet? There's

448
00:27:40,440 --> 00:27:42,000
Speaker 1: a lot of middle lines, and you don't have to

449
00:27:42,000 --> 00:27:47,280
Speaker 1: be or and either or, but be does instead. Yeah, yeah,

450
00:27:47,920 --> 00:27:52,080
Speaker 1: just overall, be cool about it, right, I'm not gonna lie.

451
00:27:52,119 --> 00:27:55,560
Speaker 1: When you were talking and we're talking about the qualities

452
00:27:55,560 --> 00:27:57,199
Speaker 1: and such, it kind of pushed me back to the

453
00:27:57,280 --> 00:28:00,359
Speaker 1: Mulan reference at the beginning of the Disney movie in

454
00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:05,000
Speaker 1: which that she's reciting to find a husband and you know, like, wait,

455
00:28:06,119 --> 00:28:07,920
Speaker 1: that which makes sense because it would have been kind

456
00:28:07,920 --> 00:28:10,800
Speaker 1: of in that time frame, kind of um in that

457
00:28:10,880 --> 00:28:13,240
Speaker 1: lesson of trying to come up in society and bringing

458
00:28:13,280 --> 00:28:16,480
Speaker 1: honor and all of such. Is to marry into which

459
00:28:16,520 --> 00:28:20,000
Speaker 1: is actually everywhere, like for the longest time, you as

460
00:28:20,000 --> 00:28:23,920
Speaker 1: a wife, your privileges to bring in the best whatever

461
00:28:24,520 --> 00:28:29,560
Speaker 1: merging of the families, my privilege. Yes, your duties as

462
00:28:29,560 --> 00:28:32,640
Speaker 1: the daughter to be a good person. I must do this.

463
00:28:34,000 --> 00:28:36,480
Speaker 1: But anyway, that's just a moment. I was like, oh,

464
00:28:36,680 --> 00:28:38,479
Speaker 1: I was like the beginning of the plot of Mulan.

465
00:28:39,240 --> 00:28:44,000
Speaker 1: And then she reveiled yes, well good for her, Yeah,

466
00:28:44,360 --> 00:28:48,520
Speaker 1: I mean all of her cheat notes, right, that's what

467
00:28:48,560 --> 00:28:50,120
Speaker 1: do you do this and be that? And I was like,

468
00:28:50,160 --> 00:28:51,960
Speaker 1: I can't remember that saying really well, I don't know

469
00:28:52,000 --> 00:28:55,240
Speaker 1: what exactly she said, but I know it's in that reference. Yeah,

470
00:28:55,280 --> 00:28:57,880
Speaker 1: there's there's also a section in there that I liked

471
00:28:57,920 --> 00:29:03,960
Speaker 1: about um watched and scrubbing filth, right, and yeah, the

472
00:29:04,280 --> 00:29:08,800
Speaker 1: the body regularly and keep the person free from disgraceful filth.

473
00:29:09,560 --> 00:29:14,160
Speaker 1: And that's maybe called characteristic characteristics of womanly bearing trying.

474
00:29:14,800 --> 00:29:18,360
Speaker 1: I mean it sounds like good for anybody, right right,

475
00:29:18,520 --> 00:29:24,080
Speaker 1: it might be just a health Yeah, get that lines

476
00:29:24,120 --> 00:29:27,240
Speaker 1: off of you. He's gonna make life better, I promise.

477
00:29:27,560 --> 00:29:29,040
Speaker 1: And I may have missed this at the beginning when

478
00:29:29,040 --> 00:29:30,680
Speaker 1: I was trying to keep up because there was a

479
00:29:30,760 --> 00:29:33,360
Speaker 1: lot of things happening. What was this in reference to

480
00:29:33,400 --> 00:29:35,480
Speaker 1: why was she writing these? So she said that she

481
00:29:35,560 --> 00:29:38,320
Speaker 1: was writing in preparation for her daughters to be married, right,

482
00:29:38,760 --> 00:29:41,360
Speaker 1: so that was the only Were they having a hard

483
00:29:41,360 --> 00:29:44,280
Speaker 1: time finding husbands? Or was this such a big deal

484
00:29:44,360 --> 00:29:46,600
Speaker 1: for the women that you must do this in order

485
00:29:46,680 --> 00:29:49,520
Speaker 1: to continue the family line? Well, that kind of it

486
00:29:49,560 --> 00:29:51,840
Speaker 1: kind of goes back to the order um thing. But

487
00:29:51,880 --> 00:29:55,239
Speaker 1: we'll talk about another reason that historians think that she

488
00:29:55,320 --> 00:29:57,720
Speaker 1: wrote this are what she was trying to provide with

489
00:29:57,760 --> 00:30:01,920
Speaker 1: it in a little bit, but just in general, like generally,

490
00:30:02,400 --> 00:30:06,160
Speaker 1: night Confucianism was the way of the crime, So that

491
00:30:06,280 --> 00:30:08,320
Speaker 1: was in line with people thinking this is what men

492
00:30:08,360 --> 00:30:09,960
Speaker 1: should do and this is what women should do. But

493
00:30:10,040 --> 00:30:13,280
Speaker 1: obviously she was the first person to lay this out

494
00:30:13,280 --> 00:30:14,880
Speaker 1: like this, so it's kind of like, oh, she probably

495
00:30:14,920 --> 00:30:16,600
Speaker 1: had a reason for it, which we'll get you in

496
00:30:16,600 --> 00:30:23,280
Speaker 1: a second. Um, no spoilers. So this is a work

497
00:30:23,320 --> 00:30:26,760
Speaker 1: that made her a well known author, but it caused

498
00:30:26,760 --> 00:30:30,080
Speaker 1: a lot of debate, as you could imagine, um, And

499
00:30:30,120 --> 00:30:33,200
Speaker 1: that's within the historical record. Like over the years, its

500
00:30:33,240 --> 00:30:36,800
Speaker 1: historians were like, oh, look at this Chinese gender studies

501
00:30:36,840 --> 00:30:40,280
Speaker 1: and feminist history. We're feminists now, like you know, so

502
00:30:40,320 --> 00:30:44,240
Speaker 1: they're going back and finding her work and thinking about

503
00:30:44,280 --> 00:30:47,960
Speaker 1: it a lot more. You know, first Westerners didn't get

504
00:30:47,960 --> 00:30:51,440
Speaker 1: into it until much later. But this is a work

505
00:30:51,480 --> 00:30:54,719
Speaker 1: that kind of blew up her name and cause all

506
00:30:54,800 --> 00:30:57,560
Speaker 1: this talk about it. At the time, it earned her

507
00:30:57,560 --> 00:31:00,000
Speaker 1: a lot of acclaim as a wise and a moral woman.

508
00:31:00,560 --> 00:31:03,960
Speaker 1: But later, particularly towards the end of the King dynasty,

509
00:31:04,040 --> 00:31:07,360
Speaker 1: which was the last imperial dynasty in China and that

510
00:31:07,440 --> 00:31:11,400
Speaker 1: lasted until about nineteen eleven, people began to question her

511
00:31:11,520 --> 00:31:15,320
Speaker 1: values about how the book or the text stripped women

512
00:31:15,400 --> 00:31:18,000
Speaker 1: of their autonomy. So there were a lot of people

513
00:31:18,000 --> 00:31:22,960
Speaker 1: like that, like later on, this was repressive, This held

514
00:31:23,040 --> 00:31:29,400
Speaker 1: women to outdated and regressive standards, all those things. But

515
00:31:29,400 --> 00:31:31,280
Speaker 1: then there were also people who thought the text should

516
00:31:31,280 --> 00:31:35,160
Speaker 1: be placed within the context of all norms of proper behaviors.

517
00:31:35,160 --> 00:31:37,840
Speaker 1: So women and girls weren't the only ones who were

518
00:31:38,160 --> 00:31:41,520
Speaker 1: held to certain standards of behavior. Boys and men also

519
00:31:41,600 --> 00:31:44,880
Speaker 1: were so to them, bun Jao was just another person

520
00:31:44,920 --> 00:31:49,840
Speaker 1: who was perpetuating and recording those norms. And then a

521
00:31:49,920 --> 00:31:53,640
Speaker 1: lot of way more interpretations you know that you can

522
00:31:53,680 --> 00:31:59,480
Speaker 1: get into of the text, But there was a change

523
00:31:59,520 --> 00:32:03,240
Speaker 1: to critics thinking and viewing it as a more pragmatic

524
00:32:03,280 --> 00:32:06,960
Speaker 1: strategy to answer your questions, Samantha. That may have helped

525
00:32:07,120 --> 00:32:10,240
Speaker 1: women thrive at the time because it was such a

526
00:32:10,280 --> 00:32:15,040
Speaker 1: patriarchal environment and following those strict rules could provide women

527
00:32:15,120 --> 00:32:17,640
Speaker 1: who were getting married and leaving their families and going

528
00:32:17,640 --> 00:32:20,160
Speaker 1: to this environment in this house that they didn't know

529
00:32:20,320 --> 00:32:22,920
Speaker 1: like you're having to. That's a big experience even for

530
00:32:22,960 --> 00:32:25,400
Speaker 1: people today, like leaving their homes and going to a

531
00:32:25,440 --> 00:32:28,040
Speaker 1: different one. That's a big life experience and a life change.

532
00:32:28,120 --> 00:32:30,239
Speaker 1: And you never know how these people might be. They

533
00:32:30,280 --> 00:32:33,680
Speaker 1: may be envious people they may be vengeful. They maybe

534
00:32:33,920 --> 00:32:37,680
Speaker 1: you never know, um, a lot of dynamics going on

535
00:32:37,720 --> 00:32:42,560
Speaker 1: back at this time, you know, um, so leaving that

536
00:32:42,640 --> 00:32:45,360
Speaker 1: environment and stepping into it. So this text could be

537
00:32:45,400 --> 00:32:48,880
Speaker 1: a strategy for survival. Like, once a woman won everyone's

538
00:32:48,880 --> 00:32:52,200
Speaker 1: approval through following these guidelines and all these ingratiating rules,

539
00:32:52,600 --> 00:32:56,240
Speaker 1: she could then gay and prestige and power, And as

540
00:32:56,240 --> 00:32:59,480
Speaker 1: a means of avoiding conflict and surviving that new life

541
00:32:59,480 --> 00:33:01,080
Speaker 1: of hers would who knows how it's going to be,

542
00:33:02,680 --> 00:33:06,400
Speaker 1: this text could be a practical manual for that. So,

543
00:33:07,160 --> 00:33:11,840
Speaker 1: regardless of all of those different thoughts that critics had

544
00:33:11,920 --> 00:33:14,520
Speaker 1: on the text over the years, it did have an

545
00:33:14,520 --> 00:33:19,280
Speaker 1: impact on traditional views of how women should behave. Um,

546
00:33:19,320 --> 00:33:21,880
Speaker 1: there were elite men who praised her for what she

547
00:33:22,000 --> 00:33:25,400
Speaker 1: was saying in the work. And also there is a

548
00:33:26,640 --> 00:33:30,080
Speaker 1: it's clear that later works that came on female ethics

549
00:33:30,600 --> 00:33:32,800
Speaker 1: can be traced back to lessons for women, so it

550
00:33:32,840 --> 00:33:37,920
Speaker 1: inspired later works. That said, some scholars do suggest that

551
00:33:39,280 --> 00:33:42,720
Speaker 1: her work didn't have a ton ton of influence on

552
00:33:42,760 --> 00:33:46,720
Speaker 1: women's education and family relations in her dynasty and in

553
00:33:46,840 --> 00:33:51,000
Speaker 1: later ones, And so there can be an I like

554
00:33:51,280 --> 00:33:54,640
Speaker 1: the idea that her influence has been overrated. It's honestly

555
00:33:54,760 --> 00:34:01,120
Speaker 1: very like the interpretations of her work go very deep. Um,

556
00:34:01,160 --> 00:34:03,400
Speaker 1: what did you think about digit? Do you have any

557
00:34:03,760 --> 00:34:09,040
Speaker 1: feelings on the various interpretations over the years. I it

558
00:34:09,160 --> 00:34:16,080
Speaker 1: is hard to when things are that far removed. Sometimes

559
00:34:16,080 --> 00:34:20,600
Speaker 1: I find myself feeling like, it's just hard to imagine

560
00:34:20,600 --> 00:34:25,120
Speaker 1: it really happened, you know what I mean. And I

561
00:34:25,160 --> 00:34:30,719
Speaker 1: was reading some criticism, especially when the Western world kind

562
00:34:30,719 --> 00:34:33,759
Speaker 1: of learned about this, and people were writing like, look

563
00:34:33,760 --> 00:34:38,600
Speaker 1: at how she helped maintain the oppression of women, and

564
00:34:38,719 --> 00:34:45,040
Speaker 1: people called her like Trader Bond or Trader gile Um,

565
00:34:45,080 --> 00:34:49,239
Speaker 1: And I guess I get sort of torn. And we

566
00:34:49,360 --> 00:34:56,279
Speaker 1: have come so far, and it's hard with history and

567
00:34:56,560 --> 00:35:01,239
Speaker 1: historical the way we interpret things, especially written kords, some

568
00:35:01,280 --> 00:35:03,359
Speaker 1: things don't mean the same thing that they did then,

569
00:35:04,000 --> 00:35:07,799
Speaker 1: and I'm always like, well, what is their missing meaning here?

570
00:35:08,280 --> 00:35:10,840
Speaker 1: What else was going on? There's so much of the

571
00:35:10,880 --> 00:35:16,440
Speaker 1: picture we don't have, So it's almost kind of funny

572
00:35:16,440 --> 00:35:19,040
Speaker 1: to me to see all of this really in depth

573
00:35:19,440 --> 00:35:24,160
Speaker 1: criticism of her work, which there should be, But at

574
00:35:24,160 --> 00:35:26,439
Speaker 1: the same time, there's just so much we don't know

575
00:35:27,040 --> 00:35:29,919
Speaker 1: about it, and that doesn't mean it's not worth having

576
00:35:29,920 --> 00:35:34,399
Speaker 1: the conversation, but it is funny to some people get

577
00:35:34,440 --> 00:35:39,160
Speaker 1: really angry about it. Yeah, it's in fighting, Yes, there is.

578
00:35:39,200 --> 00:35:41,800
Speaker 1: I didn't know the historian world was so no, actually

579
00:35:41,800 --> 00:35:45,560
Speaker 1: I did. I'm not going to act like on that night.

580
00:35:47,640 --> 00:35:50,239
Speaker 1: History and context is very important as to what is

581
00:35:50,280 --> 00:35:53,319
Speaker 1: relevant what isn't relevant, And again, what was occurring at

582
00:35:53,320 --> 00:35:54,880
Speaker 1: that time kind of like the same idea with the

583
00:35:54,920 --> 00:35:58,839
Speaker 1: Old Testament ideas that is still being used as fore

584
00:35:58,880 --> 00:36:00,360
Speaker 1: front of this is what should be have? And you're like,

585
00:36:00,400 --> 00:36:02,520
Speaker 1: you're taking this a lot of context. You've got to

586
00:36:02,560 --> 00:36:05,080
Speaker 1: remember where this is coming from. And again, like we

587
00:36:05,080 --> 00:36:07,040
Speaker 1: were saying, you were saying, what if this is a

588
00:36:07,120 --> 00:36:09,520
Speaker 1: health benefit? What this what if this was a survival

589
00:36:09,560 --> 00:36:12,440
Speaker 1: guide more so than this is how it should be

590
00:36:12,440 --> 00:36:16,600
Speaker 1: because we've got to honor these men or honor whatever

591
00:36:16,880 --> 00:36:19,160
Speaker 1: on a religion, and Confucianism was very much about what

592
00:36:19,160 --> 00:36:21,719
Speaker 1: you were talking about, just kind of finding peace and

593
00:36:21,760 --> 00:36:24,520
Speaker 1: a balance in things. And at this point in time,

594
00:36:24,800 --> 00:36:27,440
Speaker 1: at this time, in this context where she got brought

595
00:36:27,520 --> 00:36:29,560
Speaker 1: up because of her family and because of the male

596
00:36:29,600 --> 00:36:32,400
Speaker 1: members of her family, what did that look like? She

597
00:36:32,480 --> 00:36:35,000
Speaker 1: got made really young? Correct? And then he died off

598
00:36:35,040 --> 00:36:37,080
Speaker 1: and no one really knew what was going on, and

599
00:36:37,120 --> 00:36:40,520
Speaker 1: then the debate of okay, does she disrespect how does

600
00:36:40,520 --> 00:36:44,360
Speaker 1: the marriage come about for her? Or remarriage? And she

601
00:36:44,400 --> 00:36:47,080
Speaker 1: had children at that of an age too, so that's

602
00:36:47,120 --> 00:36:50,279
Speaker 1: a lot of yeah. And now that you mention it,

603
00:36:50,280 --> 00:36:54,560
Speaker 1: it's like that wasn't It was typical for girls to

604
00:36:54,880 --> 00:36:58,000
Speaker 1: be married like she was a girl when she was married.

605
00:36:58,200 --> 00:37:01,520
Speaker 1: So imagine being at that stage just as a human

606
00:37:01,680 --> 00:37:03,759
Speaker 1: being in your life and all these different things and

607
00:37:03,840 --> 00:37:06,759
Speaker 1: changes happening to you, and on top of that, going

608
00:37:06,800 --> 00:37:11,359
Speaker 1: through the whole really rigid marriage process that require so

609
00:37:11,440 --> 00:37:13,720
Speaker 1: much of you, and then you're having all these people

610
00:37:13,800 --> 00:37:16,560
Speaker 1: asked more of you and have all these expectations placed

611
00:37:16,600 --> 00:37:19,200
Speaker 1: on you. And I'm still fourteen, and I'm still sixteen,

612
00:37:19,239 --> 00:37:22,800
Speaker 1: and I'm still seventeen. You know, Um, then you're taught.

613
00:37:22,800 --> 00:37:25,120
Speaker 1: Because the thing about for me, we're not looking at

614
00:37:25,120 --> 00:37:29,240
Speaker 1: myself at sixteen. I'm embarrassed about some of my values

615
00:37:29,239 --> 00:37:31,239
Speaker 1: that put that point in time, if that makes sense,

616
00:37:31,239 --> 00:37:34,480
Speaker 1: And I'm like, oh my gosh, I was reiterating the

617
00:37:34,520 --> 00:37:37,480
Speaker 1: ignorance that I had thought were true at one point

618
00:37:37,520 --> 00:37:40,200
Speaker 1: in time. And therefore, because if you look back on

619
00:37:40,239 --> 00:37:44,080
Speaker 1: some of my journals. That's super embarrassing about what I

620
00:37:44,120 --> 00:37:48,000
Speaker 1: thought was perfection and the goal of life and all

621
00:37:48,040 --> 00:37:51,080
Speaker 1: of that, and I couldn't imagine that being taken as

622
00:37:51,360 --> 00:37:54,080
Speaker 1: this is the holy context of what you should be.

623
00:37:55,080 --> 00:37:58,640
Speaker 1: It's so helpful when you're young to have somebody telling

624
00:37:58,680 --> 00:38:01,040
Speaker 1: you what you should do, and then later on you

625
00:38:01,080 --> 00:38:03,680
Speaker 1: take that and say, oh, they gave me this, and

626
00:38:03,719 --> 00:38:06,040
Speaker 1: now I can continue to delve into these ideas and

627
00:38:06,080 --> 00:38:08,080
Speaker 1: see what works for me. It's kind of like the

628
00:38:08,120 --> 00:38:11,319
Speaker 1: typical five sentence paragraph that they used to give you,

629
00:38:11,400 --> 00:38:13,840
Speaker 1: or the five paragraph I say that they used to

630
00:38:13,840 --> 00:38:16,520
Speaker 1: give me, the say this is your your topic sentence,

631
00:38:16,560 --> 00:38:20,279
Speaker 1: and then this is your and then these ones you

632
00:38:20,280 --> 00:38:22,719
Speaker 1: explain the three points you're gonna say the next three paragraphs,

633
00:38:22,719 --> 00:38:26,640
Speaker 1: and then you have a conclusion sentence. And like when

634
00:38:26,680 --> 00:38:29,240
Speaker 1: you're young, like, oh, look at my look at my essay.

635
00:38:29,320 --> 00:38:32,800
Speaker 1: I just did that, did five paragraphs and did everything

636
00:38:32,800 --> 00:38:36,000
Speaker 1: the teacher said, and I get these checks. I did

637
00:38:36,000 --> 00:38:37,520
Speaker 1: this right, I did this right, did this right, got

638
00:38:37,520 --> 00:38:39,319
Speaker 1: a hundred on the paper, And then you take that

639
00:38:39,400 --> 00:38:43,040
Speaker 1: paper to your college later and they're like, m, this

640
00:38:43,200 --> 00:38:48,239
Speaker 1: is so stilted. This is so formulaic. What is this?

641
00:38:48,400 --> 00:38:51,200
Speaker 1: Like everybody told me this was right like years ago,

642
00:38:52,440 --> 00:38:56,520
Speaker 1: and like that's what it's like to have guidelines like that.

643
00:38:56,600 --> 00:38:58,000
Speaker 1: Like if you think about it in that way, where

644
00:38:58,040 --> 00:39:00,880
Speaker 1: these girls were girls when they were get go, getting

645
00:39:00,880 --> 00:39:04,279
Speaker 1: married and having to deal with all the things that

646
00:39:04,440 --> 00:39:10,080
Speaker 1: have to do with maturity and uh, maturity and sex

647
00:39:10,200 --> 00:39:15,080
Speaker 1: and relationships and like all the rules and all the

648
00:39:15,239 --> 00:39:20,080
Speaker 1: like social practices that were very ingrained in the culture.

649
00:39:20,800 --> 00:39:23,760
Speaker 1: And I just think about also, especially and even today,

650
00:39:24,160 --> 00:39:27,239
Speaker 1: the idea of maintaining a reputation for her to go

651
00:39:27,600 --> 00:39:30,960
Speaker 1: and be placed that Okay, you're this person's family member.

652
00:39:31,000 --> 00:39:33,719
Speaker 1: We're gonna make you finished this because you know you

653
00:39:33,719 --> 00:39:35,360
Speaker 1: have some education. I'm gonna give you this. And I

654
00:39:35,440 --> 00:39:38,319
Speaker 1: like what you're saying, So finish my historical reference here

655
00:39:38,560 --> 00:39:40,799
Speaker 1: that's been started by your father, your brother, now you,

656
00:39:41,360 --> 00:39:45,000
Speaker 1: and so I have maintained that level of respect. What

657
00:39:45,120 --> 00:39:47,880
Speaker 1: does that look like in the eyes of whomever. So

658
00:39:47,920 --> 00:39:50,800
Speaker 1: it's kind of like when you hear and this is

659
00:39:50,920 --> 00:39:55,239
Speaker 1: very very obviously a broad generalization and broad comparison, when

660
00:39:55,280 --> 00:39:57,640
Speaker 1: women are like or girls. I'm a girl, I'm a

661
00:39:57,640 --> 00:40:00,560
Speaker 1: guy's girl. I don't really like girls because and in

662
00:40:00,600 --> 00:40:03,839
Speaker 1: a lot of majority of these girls think that's how

663
00:40:03,880 --> 00:40:06,719
Speaker 1: you get in with guys are being liked by, you know,

664
00:40:07,000 --> 00:40:12,239
Speaker 1: dismissing or being um negative about others, putting them down.

665
00:40:12,320 --> 00:40:15,160
Speaker 1: So you don't look like that whatever you're afraid of becoming.

666
00:40:15,920 --> 00:40:18,080
Speaker 1: You know, could you I couldn't imagine in that historical

667
00:40:18,080 --> 00:40:21,120
Speaker 1: context of you have this reputation already because of your family,

668
00:40:21,280 --> 00:40:23,480
Speaker 1: you're supposed to maintain this and how do you keep

669
00:40:23,520 --> 00:40:26,240
Speaker 1: going with that? It's a lot of it's a burden,

670
00:40:26,320 --> 00:40:30,279
Speaker 1: it's a lot of responsibility. Does it excuse those things? Now? What?

671
00:40:30,520 --> 00:40:32,279
Speaker 1: I think these things are great now? But I've been

672
00:40:32,320 --> 00:40:35,800
Speaker 1: burned at the stake by her standards. Yes, yes I would,

673
00:40:36,000 --> 00:40:37,959
Speaker 1: but yeah, you got you have to come back. And

674
00:40:38,120 --> 00:40:41,759
Speaker 1: this was over nine years ago this and isn't very

675
00:40:42,400 --> 00:40:44,759
Speaker 1: weird time frame because you had those dynasties and that

676
00:40:44,800 --> 00:40:46,960
Speaker 1: doesn't exist anymore. And you kind of just know the

677
00:40:47,000 --> 00:40:50,640
Speaker 1: historical romancing context of what it was back then, what

678
00:40:50,719 --> 00:40:54,080
Speaker 1: you imagine had happened then two now it's kind of like, huh,

679
00:40:54,160 --> 00:40:56,479
Speaker 1: I wonder you take those words, what does that look

680
00:40:56,520 --> 00:40:59,719
Speaker 1: like then today? What was that comparison? What was her life? Really?

681
00:40:59,760 --> 00:41:02,680
Speaker 1: A lot yeah, and I also think that for me,

682
00:41:02,760 --> 00:41:04,960
Speaker 1: I can read all I want to about these times.

683
00:41:05,680 --> 00:41:08,000
Speaker 1: I can't embody it, like I have no idea what

684
00:41:08,080 --> 00:41:10,040
Speaker 1: it's like to live in that time. I can't fathom it.

685
00:41:10,040 --> 00:41:13,120
Speaker 1: It's like trying to figure out what a billion light

686
00:41:13,200 --> 00:41:18,000
Speaker 1: years is, Like I can't fathom it. So, yeah, we

687
00:41:18,080 --> 00:41:20,040
Speaker 1: do have a little bit more for you, but first

688
00:41:20,080 --> 00:41:22,080
Speaker 1: we have one more quick break for word from our sponsor,

689
00:41:35,680 --> 00:41:39,279
Speaker 1: and we're back. Thank you. Fun. She lived to her seventies,

690
00:41:39,560 --> 00:41:42,680
Speaker 1: so she was really all. It was around one sixteen

691
00:41:42,719 --> 00:41:47,439
Speaker 1: around that time, and Empress Dowager Dune reportedly mourned her death.

692
00:41:47,880 --> 00:41:49,840
Speaker 1: They said that she did that for her, So that

693
00:41:49,840 --> 00:41:53,200
Speaker 1: would ad meant that Button Jail was an important person

694
00:41:53,320 --> 00:41:57,479
Speaker 1: in the Empress Dowager's life. And like I said about

695
00:41:57,480 --> 00:41:59,600
Speaker 1: her poetry, you can read a lot of her literary

696
00:41:59,680 --> 00:42:03,720
Speaker 1: works and you can read Lessons for Women and all

697
00:42:03,760 --> 00:42:06,200
Speaker 1: of the scholarly debate that's happened over the issues of

698
00:42:06,200 --> 00:42:09,680
Speaker 1: gender and her work, and just delve into that beyond

699
00:42:09,680 --> 00:42:12,400
Speaker 1: this description, because there's only so much we can get into.

700
00:42:12,719 --> 00:42:15,480
Speaker 1: But the point is, like historians returned to her work

701
00:42:16,160 --> 00:42:19,359
Speaker 1: over time to view it through lens of gender as

702
00:42:19,440 --> 00:42:22,880
Speaker 1: society was transforming a lot, and as people were developing

703
00:42:22,920 --> 00:42:28,719
Speaker 1: different views on women's roles. Yeah, it is fascinating to

704
00:42:28,760 --> 00:42:35,000
Speaker 1: see something like being a woman quantified almost like and

705
00:42:35,080 --> 00:42:38,320
Speaker 1: it's it's such a good snapshot. It makes me wonder

706
00:42:38,360 --> 00:42:42,440
Speaker 1: if we wrote now, like if if we almost kind

707
00:42:42,480 --> 00:42:46,600
Speaker 1: of satirically wrote, these are the things society expects you

708
00:42:47,320 --> 00:42:50,120
Speaker 1: to be a good woman. You are these things, and

709
00:42:50,160 --> 00:42:54,200
Speaker 1: then two thousand years from now, if somebody read it

710
00:42:54,320 --> 00:42:57,319
Speaker 1: and it just doesn't make any sense. I actually love

711
00:42:57,400 --> 00:43:00,759
Speaker 1: that idea, just like a I can't think of the

712
00:43:00,760 --> 00:43:03,239
Speaker 1: word just some of some sort. It's kind of like

713
00:43:03,320 --> 00:43:08,600
Speaker 1: historical fiction, like historical realmaging, but with current commentary on it,

714
00:43:08,960 --> 00:43:12,799
Speaker 1: I'm gonna have to do that. Yeah, we should be cool. Yeah,

715
00:43:12,880 --> 00:43:17,520
Speaker 1: it's a new decade doing things. It's time. What could

716
00:43:17,520 --> 00:43:25,919
Speaker 1: have been we'll never know, speculation perhaps, but yeah, but yeah,

717
00:43:25,960 --> 00:43:29,000
Speaker 1: but that's she's that deep history and being that important

718
00:43:30,080 --> 00:43:33,720
Speaker 1: in in that culture and being a historian and someone

719
00:43:33,719 --> 00:43:39,240
Speaker 1: who was brought on even that's m hm. Intimidating. Yeah,

720
00:43:39,840 --> 00:43:43,960
Speaker 1: as are most of the women we talked about. Doesn't

721
00:43:44,000 --> 00:43:46,600
Speaker 1: she have a crater? That's right, I knew it. She

722
00:43:46,680 --> 00:43:49,239
Speaker 1: does have a crater as a crater on Venus named

723
00:43:49,280 --> 00:43:51,400
Speaker 1: after her, and that's how you know you've made it.

724
00:43:51,600 --> 00:43:55,359
Speaker 1: Don't you want to have a name to that even

725
00:43:55,520 --> 00:43:59,120
Speaker 1: happen People who discover it are like, let's name it

726
00:43:59,160 --> 00:44:01,960
Speaker 1: after nobody knows unless you look up that person, and

727
00:44:02,040 --> 00:44:05,279
Speaker 1: like the crater was named after that. I mean, I

728
00:44:05,320 --> 00:44:10,359
Speaker 1: get I wanted though, Okay, you want to know what

729
00:44:10,400 --> 00:44:13,719
Speaker 1: you're saying. Yes, if anyone listening has that power. If

730
00:44:13,800 --> 00:44:16,680
Speaker 1: I created one on the earth and said this as far,

731
00:44:16,800 --> 00:44:19,600
Speaker 1: oh my gosh, we could probably if we raised enough money,

732
00:44:19,640 --> 00:44:21,960
Speaker 1: we could probably get it done, honestly, and thank you.

733
00:44:22,440 --> 00:44:25,200
Speaker 1: You know what I learned last night how to name

734
00:44:25,200 --> 00:44:30,040
Speaker 1: it crater? No, so my dad named me after um,

735
00:44:30,600 --> 00:44:32,600
Speaker 1: his mom, but also Mickey Rooney. That's why I spent

736
00:44:32,600 --> 00:44:35,000
Speaker 1: my name with an E. Y. I thought Mickey Rooney

737
00:44:35,040 --> 00:44:37,560
Speaker 1: was a baseball player, and I learned last night he's

738
00:44:37,560 --> 00:44:40,759
Speaker 1: an actor. My whole life, I thought I was named

739
00:44:40,880 --> 00:44:45,720
Speaker 1: It took you to the last Have you never heard

740
00:44:45,800 --> 00:44:50,360
Speaker 1: the stories of Judy Garland and Vickey Rooney, Like we

741
00:44:50,400 --> 00:44:52,680
Speaker 1: all have stories like that. Though we just realized something

742
00:44:52,719 --> 00:44:57,879
Speaker 1: after however many years we've living historian. Yeah, I think

743
00:44:57,960 --> 00:45:00,200
Speaker 1: I said something recently, like yesterday we were port in

744
00:45:00,239 --> 00:45:05,040
Speaker 1: something else. I never knew that. But this is my namesake.

745
00:45:05,080 --> 00:45:07,640
Speaker 1: I've been telling people my entire life. I was named

746
00:45:07,640 --> 00:45:11,400
Speaker 1: after a baseball player. He didn't die until recently, like

747
00:45:11,440 --> 00:45:16,719
Speaker 1: it was. I don't know. My point being if if

748
00:45:16,719 --> 00:45:19,200
Speaker 1: you name a crater after me, at least I'll know

749
00:45:19,239 --> 00:45:24,600
Speaker 1: where the name comes from now. But he was, Yeah,

750
00:45:24,880 --> 00:45:28,560
Speaker 1: he died in fourteen. Like I don't need the judgment.

751
00:45:29,360 --> 00:45:31,600
Speaker 1: I don't need the judgment. I got it last night

752
00:45:31,640 --> 00:45:35,200
Speaker 1: because I found this out at a party and everybody

753
00:45:35,320 --> 00:45:37,560
Speaker 1: had like you didn't know that. They just kept going

754
00:45:37,560 --> 00:45:39,640
Speaker 1: and going and going. And I got all the texts

755
00:45:39,640 --> 00:45:41,719
Speaker 1: this morning. I remember when you didn't know Mickey or

756
00:45:41,719 --> 00:45:43,920
Speaker 1: any one, like, oh my god, Okay, don't think of

757
00:45:43,960 --> 00:45:46,040
Speaker 1: anything like that ever happened to me, so we can

758
00:45:46,080 --> 00:45:48,960
Speaker 1: commits right in arms. I'm trying to think of it too,

759
00:45:48,960 --> 00:45:53,440
Speaker 1: because you know, I told you I love old movies

760
00:45:53,640 --> 00:45:57,280
Speaker 1: and I loved Mickey Mooney and Judy Garland films because

761
00:45:57,400 --> 00:45:59,359
Speaker 1: that was before Judy Garland. Well that was during the

762
00:45:59,360 --> 00:46:03,400
Speaker 1: midst of them abusing Judy Garland and started her drug addiction.

763
00:46:03,440 --> 00:46:05,319
Speaker 1: And he was a part of that too, because they

764
00:46:05,320 --> 00:46:08,200
Speaker 1: would feed both of them, uh different drugs to keep

765
00:46:08,200 --> 00:46:10,080
Speaker 1: them awake, to put them to sleep, and then that

766
00:46:10,160 --> 00:46:12,279
Speaker 1: kind of just because they were making a lot of

767
00:46:12,320 --> 00:46:16,080
Speaker 1: money for the studio, so they were Yeah, and Judy

768
00:46:16,080 --> 00:46:19,080
Speaker 1: Garland's whole story story is so dramatic. He was a

769
00:46:19,080 --> 00:46:22,319
Speaker 1: part of that, not as in like he was main

770
00:46:22,440 --> 00:46:24,160
Speaker 1: or anything, but he was a part of that trope

771
00:46:24,200 --> 00:46:27,239
Speaker 1: of Okay, one of our mini stars. This is what

772
00:46:27,239 --> 00:46:29,839
Speaker 1: we're gonna do. We've gone really really often. Yeah we have.

773
00:46:31,000 --> 00:46:32,279
Speaker 1: Now I've got to look him up and see if

774
00:46:32,280 --> 00:46:35,040
Speaker 1: there's anyway I'll do it that later any other final

775
00:46:36,160 --> 00:46:44,680
Speaker 1: But no, I think that works for me. I love

776
00:46:44,760 --> 00:46:47,200
Speaker 1: that history. I also love that it's not it's not

777
00:46:47,320 --> 00:46:50,920
Speaker 1: just setting easy tones like there are so many complications

778
00:46:50,920 --> 00:46:54,160
Speaker 1: and so many debates, and because that's absolutely reflective of

779
00:46:54,200 --> 00:46:56,279
Speaker 1: that time and generation and we've got to acknowledge for

780
00:46:56,360 --> 00:46:59,320
Speaker 1: what it is and also acknowledge the historical context. And

781
00:46:59,320 --> 00:47:02,480
Speaker 1: I think it's very portant because again, one of the

782
00:47:02,520 --> 00:47:04,160
Speaker 1: things we talked about and we're going to talk about

783
00:47:04,200 --> 00:47:07,040
Speaker 1: forever obviously, but even when politics and such, when there's

784
00:47:07,080 --> 00:47:08,440
Speaker 1: like that back and forth like yeah he did this,

785
00:47:08,520 --> 00:47:10,840
Speaker 1: but they did this as well. It's kind of that

786
00:47:10,920 --> 00:47:13,279
Speaker 1: same level of she did some amazing things, she was

787
00:47:13,320 --> 00:47:15,239
Speaker 1: recognized for these amazing things, but then she did this,

788
00:47:15,360 --> 00:47:19,320
Speaker 1: which became problematic. So how do you, especially in this culture,

789
00:47:19,400 --> 00:47:22,160
Speaker 1: when when it's one sided, it seems like you're you're

790
00:47:22,200 --> 00:47:24,719
Speaker 1: either this or that and you can't be both. I

791
00:47:24,760 --> 00:47:27,520
Speaker 1: think it's very good to keep looking at that as

792
00:47:27,920 --> 00:47:30,239
Speaker 1: relevant in what we're talking about today and how things

793
00:47:30,239 --> 00:47:33,600
Speaker 1: are changing today. When I also think two things that

794
00:47:33,640 --> 00:47:35,600
Speaker 1: One often when we look back at stuff like this

795
00:47:35,680 --> 00:47:38,160
Speaker 1: and say, oh, it's so horrible, but like that's not

796
00:47:38,160 --> 00:47:41,120
Speaker 1: always the case, like too easy to judge. It's they

797
00:47:41,480 --> 00:47:45,959
Speaker 1: were living fine lives within these kind finds still. And

798
00:47:46,239 --> 00:47:50,800
Speaker 1: just because it isn't the type of freedom and movement

799
00:47:50,840 --> 00:47:52,759
Speaker 1: that we're able to have today doesn't mean that it

800
00:47:52,840 --> 00:47:57,800
Speaker 1: was horrible, And to that it is encouraging to see

801
00:47:58,840 --> 00:48:02,920
Speaker 1: how long things can take. We often think, oh, this

802
00:48:03,000 --> 00:48:04,520
Speaker 1: is never going to change, and we had to do

803
00:48:04,840 --> 00:48:07,680
Speaker 1: and thinking bureaucratically, like specifically staying in the US, it's

804
00:48:07,680 --> 00:48:10,080
Speaker 1: gonna take forever for this legislation to happen, and this

805
00:48:10,239 --> 00:48:13,200
Speaker 1: is never gonna happen because there there's this is two partisans,

806
00:48:13,239 --> 00:48:15,600
Speaker 1: and like we think all that all those things which

807
00:48:15,640 --> 00:48:18,120
Speaker 1: are important parts of the conversation obviously matter in terms

808
00:48:18,160 --> 00:48:22,640
Speaker 1: of things actually happening. But if we can be so

809
00:48:22,880 --> 00:48:27,200
Speaker 1: humble to think beyond our own lifetimes, that we can

810
00:48:27,280 --> 00:48:33,600
Speaker 1: imagine change and continue to have hope excellently put Eaves excellently.

811
00:48:33,800 --> 00:48:38,680
Speaker 1: Happy freaking New Year. That's right, Happy New Year everyone year.

812
00:48:39,480 --> 00:48:42,920
Speaker 1: Where can the listeners find you? Eaves? So you can

813
00:48:43,000 --> 00:48:47,879
Speaker 1: find me on Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram at this same

814
00:48:47,920 --> 00:48:50,360
Speaker 1: in history class. Just look up that podcast, which is

815
00:48:50,360 --> 00:48:52,600
Speaker 1: another one that I'm on, is a daily history podcast,

816
00:48:52,920 --> 00:48:55,239
Speaker 1: and you can find me on all those things. Look

817
00:48:55,320 --> 00:48:57,920
Speaker 1: up I'm Popular. It's a podcast about people in history

818
00:48:58,040 --> 00:49:02,160
Speaker 1: who challenge the status quo and we're persecuted for it

819
00:49:02,239 --> 00:49:04,560
Speaker 1: in some way, and what lessons we can learn to

820
00:49:04,640 --> 00:49:08,759
Speaker 1: be able to link those to today's world and from elsewhere.

821
00:49:09,440 --> 00:49:14,160
Speaker 1: My names Eves, Jeff co Y, b S. Jeff cot

822
00:49:14,280 --> 00:49:17,440
Speaker 1: Not named after Mickey Rooney, Not named after Mickey Rooney,

823
00:49:17,560 --> 00:49:19,839
Speaker 1: named after Eve St. Lauri. And I was thinking about

824
00:49:19,840 --> 00:49:22,080
Speaker 1: when you said that, maybe I'll find out that I wasn't.

825
00:49:22,200 --> 00:49:24,320
Speaker 1: One day. I'm gonna I'm gonna check in on the

826
00:49:24,400 --> 00:49:28,399
Speaker 1: history again. You should do a devil check, really really through.

827
00:49:28,560 --> 00:49:31,120
Speaker 1: I think that was partly hers, wasn't it also adjusted

828
00:49:31,280 --> 00:49:33,440
Speaker 1: today this day in history class. It was, but I've

829
00:49:33,440 --> 00:49:42,000
Speaker 1: already offered her the Pinot beter Um. Anyway, well, it

830
00:49:42,160 --> 00:49:45,279
Speaker 1: was a pleasure, as always, Eaves, thank you so much.

831
00:49:46,040 --> 00:49:49,320
Speaker 1: If you would like to contact us, you can our emails,

832
00:49:49,360 --> 00:49:51,680
Speaker 1: Stuff Media, mom Stuff at iHeart media dot com. You

833
00:49:51,760 --> 00:49:53,759
Speaker 1: can find us on Twitter at mom suf podcast or

834
00:49:53,760 --> 00:49:55,920
Speaker 1: on Instagram and Stuff I've Never Told You. Thanks as

835
00:49:55,960 --> 00:50:00,400
Speaker 1: always to to our super producer Andrew Howard. Thanks to

836
00:50:00,440 --> 00:50:02,680
Speaker 1: you for listening Stuff I've Never Told You. He was

837
00:50:02,680 --> 00:50:04,480
Speaker 1: a production of iHeart Radio, as how Steff works for

838
00:50:04,560 --> 00:50:06,279
Speaker 1: more podcast from my Heart Radio. You can listen to

839
00:50:06,320 --> 00:50:09,160
Speaker 1: the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you listen

840
00:50:09,239 --> 00:50:10,120
Speaker 1: to your favorite shows.