1 00:00:04,160 --> 00:00:05,880 Speaker 1: There Are No Girls on the Internet, as a production 2 00:00:05,920 --> 00:00:13,600 Speaker 1: of iHeartRadio and Unbossed Creative. I'm Bridgeton and this is 3 00:00:13,600 --> 00:00:18,600 Speaker 1: There Are No Girls on the Internet. So we're still 4 00:00:18,600 --> 00:00:21,239 Speaker 1: in between seasons, but I've got something really special I 5 00:00:21,280 --> 00:00:23,799 Speaker 1: wanted to share with y'all. About a year ago, I 6 00:00:23,920 --> 00:00:27,960 Speaker 1: hosted a roundtable on gendered and racialized disinformation with three 7 00:00:28,080 --> 00:00:31,840 Speaker 1: incredible women of color disinformation experts really doing the work 8 00:00:31,880 --> 00:00:35,360 Speaker 1: in the field to understand and combat the weaponization of 9 00:00:35,360 --> 00:00:38,400 Speaker 1: inflammatory lives about our identity, and as part of my 10 00:00:38,640 --> 00:00:42,320 Speaker 1: post election kind of personal come to Jesus post mortem, 11 00:00:42,600 --> 00:00:44,760 Speaker 1: I re listened to it and I was struck by 12 00:00:44,800 --> 00:00:49,000 Speaker 1: how prescient our conversation was. What the terrible election we 13 00:00:49,080 --> 00:00:52,680 Speaker 1: all just lived through, one where racialized and gender disinformation 14 00:00:52,960 --> 00:00:56,440 Speaker 1: really took center stage. We talked about the long historical 15 00:00:56,520 --> 00:00:59,760 Speaker 1: foundations that bad actors have built on to amplify divisions 16 00:01:00,320 --> 00:01:03,000 Speaker 1: race and gender lines, and the way that tech platforms 17 00:01:03,120 --> 00:01:06,240 Speaker 1: have been used to not only perpetuate that disinformation, but 18 00:01:06,400 --> 00:01:10,360 Speaker 1: also make record profits by doing it. The roundtable was 19 00:01:10,400 --> 00:01:13,520 Speaker 1: part of a video documentary project I did with Exposure Labs, 20 00:01:13,680 --> 00:01:16,800 Speaker 1: the company behind the Netflix documentary The Social Dilemma and 21 00:01:16,880 --> 00:01:20,640 Speaker 1: many other excellent projects, and I am particularly grateful to 22 00:01:20,680 --> 00:01:23,920 Speaker 1: director and showrunner Joshua Clark for leading this incredible project 23 00:01:24,120 --> 00:01:26,039 Speaker 1: and for making it available to share with all of 24 00:01:26,080 --> 00:01:27,360 Speaker 1: you here at there are no growth. 25 00:01:27,120 --> 00:01:27,680 Speaker 2: On the Internet. 26 00:01:27,800 --> 00:01:29,640 Speaker 1: It is important work and I am glad we are 27 00:01:29,680 --> 00:02:01,920 Speaker 1: able to air it here. Check it out. Welcome to 28 00:02:01,920 --> 00:02:05,520 Speaker 1: the Disinfo Dialogue, where we're exploring the legacy of cultural disinformation, 29 00:02:05,920 --> 00:02:08,960 Speaker 1: how it has targeted traditionally marginalized communities both before and 30 00:02:09,080 --> 00:02:11,080 Speaker 1: during the Internet Age, and what it means for all 31 00:02:11,120 --> 00:02:14,680 Speaker 1: of us. I'm your host, bridget Toad. We're joined by 32 00:02:14,720 --> 00:02:18,440 Speaker 1: an expert roundtable featuring Jessica and Mitchell Awuiar, founder of 33 00:02:18,440 --> 00:02:22,600 Speaker 1: the National Black Cultural Information Trust, Liz Lebron, disinformation researcher 34 00:02:22,639 --> 00:02:25,919 Speaker 1: at Blue Nexus Group, and Jaya Savita Ayer, director of 35 00:02:25,960 --> 00:02:29,320 Speaker 1: the Asian Pacific Islanders Acific Action Network. So I want 36 00:02:29,320 --> 00:02:32,400 Speaker 1: to start with the word disinformation. I've sometimes had a 37 00:02:32,440 --> 00:02:34,919 Speaker 1: little bit of discomfort with this word because I think 38 00:02:34,960 --> 00:02:37,480 Speaker 1: it can be kind of a buzzword and might not 39 00:02:37,560 --> 00:02:41,440 Speaker 1: actually get at the ways that inaccurate, inflammatory content about 40 00:02:41,440 --> 00:02:45,440 Speaker 1: our identity and our communities really impacts us in our democracy. 41 00:02:45,480 --> 00:02:47,720 Speaker 1: So what do you think when you hear the word disinformation? 42 00:02:48,560 --> 00:02:51,560 Speaker 3: You're so right, disinformation. You know, it was a buzzword 43 00:02:51,560 --> 00:02:54,040 Speaker 3: for a minute. But first of all, disinformation did not 44 00:02:54,160 --> 00:02:56,200 Speaker 3: start with the Internet. It did not start with the 45 00:02:56,240 --> 00:03:00,800 Speaker 3: digitally just been around since time immemorial. It's really a 46 00:03:01,080 --> 00:03:06,400 Speaker 3: deliberate and concerted effort to distort information and give people 47 00:03:07,080 --> 00:03:11,920 Speaker 3: faulty false information, and deliberate really being the keywords. So 48 00:03:12,480 --> 00:03:14,720 Speaker 3: you know your aunt Mildred saying, oh, I think the 49 00:03:14,760 --> 00:03:19,399 Speaker 3: election is on Wednesday, that's just, you know, somebody being misinformed. 50 00:03:19,480 --> 00:03:23,360 Speaker 3: That's very different than a bad actor putting together a 51 00:03:23,400 --> 00:03:29,280 Speaker 3: deliberate campaign with the hopes of changing a whole people's behavior. 52 00:03:29,639 --> 00:03:31,600 Speaker 4: I really like how you kind of set that up, 53 00:03:32,280 --> 00:03:35,280 Speaker 4: the working definitions that I use, and that kind of 54 00:03:35,320 --> 00:03:39,200 Speaker 4: help ground being when talking about these like really abstract concepts. 55 00:03:39,320 --> 00:03:44,760 Speaker 4: Is misinformation, disinformation, and malinformation? Right, we think of misinformation 56 00:03:44,800 --> 00:03:48,119 Speaker 4: as exactly what you said. It's your aunt saying, you know, 57 00:03:48,240 --> 00:03:52,160 Speaker 4: something incorrect that's based on something that maybe she saw 58 00:03:52,240 --> 00:03:55,400 Speaker 4: on social media. Disinformation, I think often has kind of 59 00:03:55,440 --> 00:03:58,960 Speaker 4: an agenda or has some sort of CD background within it. 60 00:03:59,000 --> 00:04:03,120 Speaker 4: And then information is kind of the thing that is 61 00:04:03,400 --> 00:04:06,600 Speaker 4: meant to cause harm. Right, That's the thing that's meant 62 00:04:06,640 --> 00:04:10,080 Speaker 4: to cause hurt, that's meant to divide us, that's meant 63 00:04:10,120 --> 00:04:14,040 Speaker 4: to alienate people in communities, and is meant to really 64 00:04:14,480 --> 00:04:17,479 Speaker 4: perpetuate not only harm, but lack of trust. 65 00:04:17,600 --> 00:04:20,120 Speaker 2: And we all fall victim to it in various ways. 66 00:04:20,360 --> 00:04:23,920 Speaker 5: That's so true. I love both of you all's definitions. 67 00:04:24,080 --> 00:04:28,920 Speaker 5: Disinformation is false information spread with an agenda, and misinformation 68 00:04:29,360 --> 00:04:35,240 Speaker 5: is false information spread but often unknowingly. And I think 69 00:04:35,240 --> 00:04:37,760 Speaker 5: it's really important to make that distinction because if we 70 00:04:37,800 --> 00:04:41,000 Speaker 5: don't make that distinction, sometimes we end up demonizing the 71 00:04:41,320 --> 00:04:45,560 Speaker 5: very communities that we're trying to protect from this and misinformation. 72 00:04:46,120 --> 00:04:47,280 Speaker 2: And I'm really. 73 00:04:46,920 --> 00:04:50,279 Speaker 5: Glad Jaya that you brought up mal information because that's 74 00:04:50,560 --> 00:04:54,360 Speaker 5: not talked about as much. But mal information can be 75 00:04:54,440 --> 00:05:02,120 Speaker 5: truthful information that is used within certain narrative to persuade 76 00:05:02,279 --> 00:05:04,720 Speaker 5: people to react in a certain way. 77 00:05:04,960 --> 00:05:07,200 Speaker 1: So let's get into some of those historical examples, because 78 00:05:07,240 --> 00:05:09,400 Speaker 1: this is I really want to get into this. So 79 00:05:09,640 --> 00:05:12,799 Speaker 1: much of the malinformation and disinformation that I have seen 80 00:05:13,400 --> 00:05:17,480 Speaker 1: targeting communities of color really are trying to pit us 81 00:05:17,520 --> 00:05:19,720 Speaker 1: against each other to say, oh, like you need to 82 00:05:19,760 --> 00:05:22,799 Speaker 1: be afraid of this community. This community is taking your resources. 83 00:05:22,800 --> 00:05:24,839 Speaker 1: This community is a threat to you. Why do you 84 00:05:24,839 --> 00:05:26,400 Speaker 1: think that is? Why are we seeing this and how 85 00:05:26,400 --> 00:05:28,039 Speaker 1: have you seen us play out in your own work? 86 00:05:28,560 --> 00:05:31,440 Speaker 5: I can say specifically in terms of the Black community, 87 00:05:32,720 --> 00:05:37,880 Speaker 5: there is an ongoing disinformation campaign to sow a rift 88 00:05:37,880 --> 00:05:43,279 Speaker 5: between African Americans and Black immigrants or descendants of Black immigrants. 89 00:05:43,720 --> 00:05:48,200 Speaker 5: Part of that is meant to break down the power 90 00:05:48,320 --> 00:05:53,000 Speaker 5: of black collective activism. There has been solidarity built over 91 00:05:53,120 --> 00:05:57,320 Speaker 5: time where these communities come together. We have people like 92 00:05:58,360 --> 00:06:03,120 Speaker 5: Kwame Terray. We have Malcolm X who is a descendant 93 00:06:03,160 --> 00:06:07,360 Speaker 5: of African Americans and his mother was from the Caribbean. 94 00:06:07,480 --> 00:06:13,120 Speaker 5: So we have all these experiences through the Harlem Renaissance, 95 00:06:13,760 --> 00:06:18,480 Speaker 5: through the Black Arts period, through the Black Power movement, 96 00:06:18,960 --> 00:06:22,960 Speaker 5: of people of African descent from various ethnicities and backgrounds 97 00:06:23,000 --> 00:06:25,960 Speaker 5: coming together to fight for our civil and human rights. 98 00:06:26,560 --> 00:06:28,919 Speaker 2: And it's only getting. 99 00:06:28,640 --> 00:06:33,640 Speaker 5: Greater unless you come up with a way to put 100 00:06:33,720 --> 00:06:36,320 Speaker 5: us at odds with each other to where we feel 101 00:06:36,320 --> 00:06:38,799 Speaker 5: like we're in competition with each other till we feel 102 00:06:38,800 --> 00:06:41,560 Speaker 5: like we're taking resources from each other. 103 00:06:41,920 --> 00:06:46,320 Speaker 3: No, absolutely, and it comes back to sowing distrust to 104 00:06:46,360 --> 00:06:49,880 Speaker 3: make us not trust one another. There's a long standing 105 00:06:50,000 --> 00:06:55,200 Speaker 3: history of trying to pet Latinos and Black communities against 106 00:06:55,200 --> 00:06:58,960 Speaker 3: one another, as if after Latinos do not exist, you know. 107 00:06:59,040 --> 00:07:03,599 Speaker 3: So first of all, yeah, it's completely erasing after Latinos, 108 00:07:03,640 --> 00:07:07,400 Speaker 3: you know, off the bat. So one really just awful 109 00:07:07,440 --> 00:07:10,880 Speaker 3: narrative that I saw was about the Vice president so 110 00:07:11,000 --> 00:07:13,880 Speaker 3: saying heard, I've seen a lot of disinformation in the 111 00:07:13,920 --> 00:07:17,239 Speaker 3: Latino community that because she is black and here again 112 00:07:17,320 --> 00:07:21,040 Speaker 3: erasing the fact that she is also you know, an 113 00:07:21,080 --> 00:07:24,920 Speaker 3: Asian American, erasing that completely, she's not going to look 114 00:07:24,960 --> 00:07:27,960 Speaker 3: out for the interest of Latinos. How could she. She's 115 00:07:27,960 --> 00:07:29,560 Speaker 3: a you know, a black woman. She's only going to 116 00:07:29,600 --> 00:07:31,679 Speaker 3: look out for the interest of a black people. 117 00:07:31,840 --> 00:07:33,840 Speaker 5: That's so funny you brought that up, because in the 118 00:07:33,880 --> 00:07:38,400 Speaker 5: black community, the disinformation about the Vice President Kamala Harris 119 00:07:38,560 --> 00:07:44,320 Speaker 5: is she's half Asian, she's not black enough, she don't 120 00:07:44,360 --> 00:07:49,320 Speaker 5: represent us, and so it's that distrust on that end 121 00:07:49,560 --> 00:07:50,120 Speaker 5: as well. 122 00:07:50,440 --> 00:07:53,720 Speaker 4: I mean, And the funniest thing is on the flip side, 123 00:07:53,760 --> 00:07:56,440 Speaker 4: within the Asian community and specifically within the South Asian 124 00:07:56,520 --> 00:07:59,840 Speaker 4: Indian community, Kamala Harris isn't South Asian enough. For her, 125 00:08:00,120 --> 00:08:06,320 Speaker 4: hosting parties or trying to kind of build solidarity in 126 00:08:06,400 --> 00:08:10,240 Speaker 4: community with the API population is seen as performative because 127 00:08:10,800 --> 00:08:13,200 Speaker 4: you know, she's picking and choosing when she wants to 128 00:08:13,200 --> 00:08:13,880 Speaker 4: be South Asian. 129 00:08:13,880 --> 00:08:15,640 Speaker 2: She's picking and choosing when she wants to be Asian. 130 00:08:15,880 --> 00:08:17,760 Speaker 4: And I wanted to get back to your previous point 131 00:08:17,800 --> 00:08:20,800 Speaker 4: around kind of the history of solidarity and the history 132 00:08:20,880 --> 00:08:24,600 Speaker 4: of inter and intra black solidarity and talk really about 133 00:08:24,640 --> 00:08:28,480 Speaker 4: the fact that the API, the Asian American solidarity movement 134 00:08:29,040 --> 00:08:31,120 Speaker 4: would not have happened without black. 135 00:08:30,920 --> 00:08:33,440 Speaker 2: Civil rights leaders and the black power movement. 136 00:08:33,520 --> 00:08:38,320 Speaker 4: Right, the concept the term Asian American came out because 137 00:08:38,400 --> 00:08:41,600 Speaker 4: the term African American was coined, the term Black American 138 00:08:41,720 --> 00:08:47,160 Speaker 4: was coined. But the politics of division, the politics of saying, 139 00:08:47,679 --> 00:08:51,120 Speaker 4: you know, oh, those black kids are getting into Harvard 140 00:08:51,200 --> 00:08:54,800 Speaker 4: or whatever, and that's because of affirmative action, and Asian 141 00:08:54,840 --> 00:08:57,840 Speaker 4: kids are getting into Harvard enough because of affirmative action, right, 142 00:08:58,000 --> 00:09:02,040 Speaker 4: or narratives like that, We really are looking to divide 143 00:09:02,160 --> 00:09:06,079 Speaker 4: us because when we work together like we have historically, 144 00:09:07,000 --> 00:09:09,800 Speaker 4: change happens, and change is terrifying to people in power. 145 00:09:10,160 --> 00:09:13,040 Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, And Bridget going back to your point about 146 00:09:13,120 --> 00:09:17,520 Speaker 3: what is disinformation. This dynamic right here was really interesting, 147 00:09:17,600 --> 00:09:21,120 Speaker 3: the three of us seeing the same piece of disinformation 148 00:09:21,240 --> 00:09:24,080 Speaker 3: from different lenses. And so I will tell you when 149 00:09:24,120 --> 00:09:28,080 Speaker 3: I have done the research looking into what is happening 150 00:09:28,280 --> 00:09:32,439 Speaker 3: on the disinfo front and the Latino media space, that 151 00:09:32,559 --> 00:09:35,520 Speaker 3: narrative doesn't show up. That narrative doesn't show up because 152 00:09:35,520 --> 00:09:38,760 Speaker 3: it is so targeted, right so that there's a reason 153 00:09:39,520 --> 00:09:43,040 Speaker 3: in Latino spaces you don't hear. Oh, you know, the 154 00:09:43,120 --> 00:09:46,160 Speaker 3: vice president is not Asian enough. You know, what we 155 00:09:46,240 --> 00:09:51,600 Speaker 3: hear is the narrative that will play on the divides 156 00:09:51,640 --> 00:09:54,200 Speaker 3: within our own community, which we have to address. You know, 157 00:09:54,360 --> 00:09:56,959 Speaker 3: there's colorism in our communities. There's all kinds of things, 158 00:09:57,080 --> 00:09:59,719 Speaker 3: but we're not the only ones who are aware of it. 159 00:10:00,080 --> 00:10:04,480 Speaker 3: That actor see us fighting amongst ourselves, and they walk 160 00:10:04,640 --> 00:10:07,480 Speaker 3: right in there and just try and make that gap wider. 161 00:10:08,640 --> 00:10:11,200 Speaker 1: It's part of it that some of these divisions that 162 00:10:11,280 --> 00:10:14,240 Speaker 1: really do exist, these fractures, really do exist in our communities, 163 00:10:14,440 --> 00:10:17,440 Speaker 1: but were maybe not talking about them, not doing the 164 00:10:17,480 --> 00:10:19,600 Speaker 1: work to heal them or really even point them out, 165 00:10:20,080 --> 00:10:22,840 Speaker 1: and thus we're all sort of more easily exploited. 166 00:10:23,720 --> 00:10:26,160 Speaker 5: It's not just that we're not talking about it enough, 167 00:10:27,040 --> 00:10:30,840 Speaker 5: especially in terms of African American history or Black American 168 00:10:30,960 --> 00:10:33,719 Speaker 5: history in general. You see right now, there's a concentrated 169 00:10:33,760 --> 00:10:37,079 Speaker 5: effort for it to not even be taught in schools. 170 00:10:38,000 --> 00:10:41,520 Speaker 5: When I was growing up, little black girl in Georgia, 171 00:10:41,760 --> 00:10:45,480 Speaker 5: we got a paragraph in that social studies book, Lincoln 172 00:10:45,480 --> 00:10:53,240 Speaker 5: freed the slaves, they did sharecropping, civil rights, MLKA, rosa 173 00:10:53,280 --> 00:10:57,079 Speaker 5: parts boom. That's our paragraph. That was it. So there 174 00:10:57,160 --> 00:11:01,160 Speaker 5: was a lot to do with the educational ructure in systems, 175 00:11:01,200 --> 00:11:05,880 Speaker 5: the institutions where if you wanted to learn the vastness 176 00:11:05,920 --> 00:11:10,040 Speaker 5: and the robustness of Africana studies and Black history and 177 00:11:10,080 --> 00:11:12,920 Speaker 5: Pan African history, that would really help people to better 178 00:11:13,000 --> 00:11:17,760 Speaker 5: understand the interconnections that could help with those conversations in 179 00:11:17,800 --> 00:11:18,679 Speaker 5: that dialogue. 180 00:11:18,800 --> 00:11:19,640 Speaker 2: A lot of times that. 181 00:11:19,679 --> 00:11:23,920 Speaker 5: Education is restricted to higher education, to college. So it's 182 00:11:23,960 --> 00:11:27,960 Speaker 5: not even that we're not necessarily not talking about it enough. 183 00:11:28,040 --> 00:11:31,520 Speaker 5: Many of us are not given that education to begin with, 184 00:11:32,080 --> 00:11:34,760 Speaker 5: and then we become more and more vulnerable. 185 00:11:35,000 --> 00:11:39,360 Speaker 3: You got a whole paragraph from Jealous. I mean, I'm 186 00:11:39,400 --> 00:11:41,959 Speaker 3: Puerto Rican, and the number of times people have asked 187 00:11:42,000 --> 00:11:44,520 Speaker 3: me if I'm a citizen, I can't even I mean, 188 00:11:44,800 --> 00:11:48,079 Speaker 3: oh my god. Yeah, so you know, we're we've found 189 00:11:48,280 --> 00:11:50,880 Speaker 3: a part of this country since eighteen ninety eight, we've 190 00:11:50,880 --> 00:11:54,560 Speaker 3: been citizens by birth since nineteen seventeen. And I mean 191 00:11:55,000 --> 00:11:57,520 Speaker 3: the number of people who have no idea who you know? 192 00:11:57,600 --> 00:11:59,720 Speaker 3: Oh do I need a passport together? I mean, so 193 00:12:00,559 --> 00:12:01,920 Speaker 3: I'm jealous of your paragraph. 194 00:12:02,000 --> 00:12:02,560 Speaker 2: I'll take it. 195 00:12:07,559 --> 00:12:26,000 Speaker 1: Let's take a quick break. 196 00:12:19,720 --> 00:12:20,280 Speaker 2: At our back. 197 00:12:22,200 --> 00:12:24,000 Speaker 1: I mean, I really do think it goes back to 198 00:12:24,240 --> 00:12:26,719 Speaker 1: something that I wanted to start with, this idea that 199 00:12:26,960 --> 00:12:31,440 Speaker 1: we're not talking about individuals spreading individual pieces of misinformation 200 00:12:31,520 --> 00:12:35,000 Speaker 1: or disinformation. It's institutional, right, It's like all connected. It's 201 00:12:35,040 --> 00:12:38,120 Speaker 1: this web that makes it so hard to escape these 202 00:12:38,600 --> 00:12:42,080 Speaker 1: very pervasive, very inflammatory lies about the fabric of who 203 00:12:42,080 --> 00:12:44,120 Speaker 1: we are. And it all goes back to that distrust 204 00:12:44,120 --> 00:12:46,679 Speaker 1: that you were talking about earlier, and something that I'm 205 00:12:46,760 --> 00:12:49,400 Speaker 1: curious if you all saw. I definitely saw it, especially 206 00:12:49,400 --> 00:12:52,000 Speaker 1: in the summer of twenty twenty. Don't remember that summer 207 00:12:53,160 --> 00:12:56,840 Speaker 1: the reckoning, the reckoning and something that I really saw, 208 00:12:56,920 --> 00:12:59,440 Speaker 1: and I'm wondering how you saw it play out. Was 209 00:13:00,360 --> 00:13:02,760 Speaker 1: I think that bad actors knew that that was a 210 00:13:02,760 --> 00:13:07,200 Speaker 1: particular time that maybe would highlight or inflame some existing 211 00:13:07,280 --> 00:13:11,240 Speaker 1: historical traumise, particularly for immigrants and the descendantive and the 212 00:13:11,240 --> 00:13:12,280 Speaker 1: descendants of immigrants. 213 00:13:12,280 --> 00:13:13,320 Speaker 2: Did you all see this as well? 214 00:13:13,480 --> 00:13:15,880 Speaker 3: One hundred percent. And you know, in twenty twenty, I 215 00:13:16,000 --> 00:13:18,800 Speaker 3: was working in an election administration, so I can tell 216 00:13:18,840 --> 00:13:23,680 Speaker 3: you the deliberate exploitation of the narrative that, you know, 217 00:13:23,840 --> 00:13:28,400 Speaker 3: undocumented people, illegals as you know, as they refer to 218 00:13:28,480 --> 00:13:30,680 Speaker 3: them in the disinfo circles, We're going to throw the 219 00:13:30,720 --> 00:13:33,520 Speaker 3: election in some way. You know, study after study after 220 00:13:33,559 --> 00:13:37,880 Speaker 3: study shows that what they were talking about, that level 221 00:13:38,080 --> 00:13:43,040 Speaker 3: of you know, fraud just does not exist in our elections. 222 00:13:43,040 --> 00:13:45,760 Speaker 3: Instead of being proud of that and listening to the 223 00:13:45,800 --> 00:13:49,360 Speaker 3: folks who run elections, who actually administer elections, telling us 224 00:13:49,880 --> 00:13:54,040 Speaker 3: in every state across the country that in twenty twenty, 225 00:13:54,160 --> 00:13:58,040 Speaker 3: through a pandemic, we somehow managed to pull off an election, 226 00:13:58,400 --> 00:14:02,200 Speaker 3: they were exploiting that narrative, especially coming after immigrant communities. 227 00:14:03,080 --> 00:14:06,160 Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, and I would love to kind of jump 228 00:14:06,200 --> 00:14:09,800 Speaker 4: into that and talk about you know, with the summer 229 00:14:09,840 --> 00:14:14,240 Speaker 4: of twenty twenty, it was we were seeing increasingly high 230 00:14:14,360 --> 00:14:18,760 Speaker 4: numbers of anti Asian violence, attacks on our elders. You know, 231 00:14:18,800 --> 00:14:22,400 Speaker 4: we were just being hit by a barrage of violence, 232 00:14:23,760 --> 00:14:26,560 Speaker 4: and at the same time, the solution was being posed 233 00:14:26,600 --> 00:14:30,000 Speaker 4: that hate crime legislation was the answer, right, that policing 234 00:14:30,120 --> 00:14:34,440 Speaker 4: was the answer. And we know as communities of color, 235 00:14:34,680 --> 00:14:39,520 Speaker 4: as communities that are navigating different immigration narratives and experiences, 236 00:14:40,000 --> 00:14:43,680 Speaker 4: whether you're documented or undocumented or a non citizen, that 237 00:14:43,800 --> 00:14:47,960 Speaker 4: the police aren't always a solution. But there's also that 238 00:14:48,160 --> 00:14:51,840 Speaker 4: other wonderful marketing tactic in the US of how to 239 00:14:51,880 --> 00:14:54,160 Speaker 4: be a good American or how to be a good citizen. 240 00:14:54,480 --> 00:14:56,560 Speaker 2: So you call nine to one one when you feel unsafe. 241 00:14:57,360 --> 00:14:59,600 Speaker 4: But you know, we saw those band aid solutions, and 242 00:14:59,640 --> 00:15:03,600 Speaker 4: we saw those decinfo narratives right saying that all of 243 00:15:03,640 --> 00:15:10,280 Speaker 4: these insane rioters were coming and they were all mostly 244 00:15:10,360 --> 00:15:13,480 Speaker 4: black and brown, and they were setting fireworks off, and 245 00:15:13,560 --> 00:15:17,160 Speaker 4: they were doing all these horrifying things and breaking windows, 246 00:15:17,160 --> 00:15:20,280 Speaker 4: and it was really speaking to a deep seated fear, 247 00:15:20,400 --> 00:15:25,840 Speaker 4: thanks to media within communities that we shouldn't trust people 248 00:15:25,880 --> 00:15:27,040 Speaker 4: who look different from us. 249 00:15:27,160 --> 00:15:29,560 Speaker 5: And I'm so glad you brought up the whole the 250 00:15:30,600 --> 00:15:33,640 Speaker 5: pr of the good American or how to be a 251 00:15:33,680 --> 00:15:36,480 Speaker 5: good citizen, because a lot of that fear mongering about 252 00:15:36,560 --> 00:15:42,440 Speaker 5: protesters is built off of a centuries long anti black narrative, 253 00:15:43,000 --> 00:15:47,680 Speaker 5: birth of a nationism, if you may, where the blacks 254 00:15:47,720 --> 00:15:49,120 Speaker 5: are free and they're running a mug. 255 00:15:49,880 --> 00:15:53,280 Speaker 3: Look at the three different stereotypes here, right, So it's 256 00:15:53,320 --> 00:15:57,240 Speaker 3: black people running a mug, it's Asian people who are 257 00:15:57,280 --> 00:16:01,080 Speaker 3: making us all sick with COVID completely separate, right, And 258 00:16:01,120 --> 00:16:05,320 Speaker 3: then it's Latino immigrants who are voting in droves to 259 00:16:05,400 --> 00:16:06,440 Speaker 3: throw an election. 260 00:16:06,480 --> 00:16:07,880 Speaker 2: And it's all about marketing. 261 00:16:08,080 --> 00:16:10,640 Speaker 4: And you're totally right, it's white supremacy at its root, 262 00:16:10,720 --> 00:16:15,840 Speaker 4: and it's about institutional bias, institutional power dynamics, all of 263 00:16:15,880 --> 00:16:16,640 Speaker 4: those things. 264 00:16:16,800 --> 00:16:19,000 Speaker 1: And I think something in that reminds me of what 265 00:16:19,040 --> 00:16:23,560 Speaker 1: you said, Jessica about how it's so easy to demonize 266 00:16:23,600 --> 00:16:27,480 Speaker 1: people who like quote fall for disinformation. The better question 267 00:16:27,520 --> 00:16:28,720 Speaker 1: is like, how could you not fall for it? 268 00:16:28,800 --> 00:16:28,960 Speaker 4: Right? 269 00:16:29,040 --> 00:16:32,720 Speaker 1: Like, it pains me sometimes in the disinfo community that 270 00:16:32,760 --> 00:16:36,400 Speaker 1: we sometimes are talking down to people and discounting the 271 00:16:36,440 --> 00:16:41,120 Speaker 1: actual reality of how sometimes well financed, well organized, well 272 00:16:41,160 --> 00:16:44,120 Speaker 1: coordinated these disinformation campaigns actually truly are. 273 00:16:44,520 --> 00:16:47,160 Speaker 3: And I think that's why research has shown that one 274 00:16:47,160 --> 00:16:51,280 Speaker 3: of the most effective ways to combat disinfo, instead of 275 00:16:51,320 --> 00:16:54,240 Speaker 3: going after each individual narrative is to actually talk to 276 00:16:54,280 --> 00:16:57,800 Speaker 3: people about the mechanism, because once you show them how 277 00:16:57,840 --> 00:17:01,560 Speaker 3: to spot it for themselves, they can say, oh, wait 278 00:17:01,560 --> 00:17:03,800 Speaker 3: a minute, this person is trying to dupe me, and. 279 00:17:03,720 --> 00:17:05,080 Speaker 2: I'd love to add in. Right. 280 00:17:05,200 --> 00:17:09,080 Speaker 4: Then there's the extra layer of within each ethnic group 281 00:17:09,160 --> 00:17:12,159 Speaker 4: and ethnic community in the US, there's a different method 282 00:17:12,200 --> 00:17:13,760 Speaker 4: of communication that we're all using. 283 00:17:13,840 --> 00:17:17,280 Speaker 2: Right. Some people use WhatsApp, some people use weed chat. 284 00:17:17,359 --> 00:17:21,919 Speaker 4: I know the Vietnamese populations often use YouTube for media 285 00:17:21,960 --> 00:17:25,840 Speaker 4: and use distribution. Right, We're seeing different communities are using 286 00:17:25,880 --> 00:17:27,440 Speaker 4: different methods of communication. 287 00:17:27,760 --> 00:17:29,880 Speaker 2: I can pull out my phone and show you I have. 288 00:17:31,320 --> 00:17:35,560 Speaker 4: At least one hundred WhatsApp messages unread from my family, right. 289 00:17:35,520 --> 00:17:40,440 Speaker 2: Most of which yeah, and most of which is BS. 290 00:17:40,600 --> 00:17:40,719 Speaker 5: Right. 291 00:17:40,800 --> 00:17:45,520 Speaker 4: It's like bonkers things, conspiracy theories. And my family is 292 00:17:45,600 --> 00:17:48,240 Speaker 4: wonderful and they know what they're doing, and they know 293 00:17:48,359 --> 00:17:49,080 Speaker 4: about the world. 294 00:17:49,400 --> 00:17:51,800 Speaker 2: They're well educated all of these things. 295 00:17:51,920 --> 00:17:54,720 Speaker 4: And it's so easy because you see a funny meme 296 00:17:54,760 --> 00:17:56,640 Speaker 4: and you don't think about it, right, or you see 297 00:17:56,640 --> 00:17:58,600 Speaker 4: a video and you're like, oh, I don't know if 298 00:17:58,600 --> 00:18:00,480 Speaker 4: this is real, what if it is attended? 299 00:18:00,520 --> 00:18:02,040 Speaker 3: It's entertainment. 300 00:18:02,080 --> 00:18:02,800 Speaker 2: It's entertainment. 301 00:18:02,880 --> 00:18:07,080 Speaker 3: Disinformation is often disguised and you know, as entertainment. So 302 00:18:07,119 --> 00:18:09,479 Speaker 3: it's so easy to have a good laugh and forward 303 00:18:09,560 --> 00:18:10,280 Speaker 3: it to somebody. 304 00:18:11,040 --> 00:18:15,160 Speaker 5: I'm so glad you brought that up because when Jay eraised, 305 00:18:15,200 --> 00:18:19,960 Speaker 5: the aspect of the different platforms that were on Twitter 306 00:18:20,400 --> 00:18:23,919 Speaker 5: like emerged, especially black Twitter emerged as this space for 307 00:18:24,080 --> 00:18:29,760 Speaker 5: communal conversation. Now it's x and our community was especially 308 00:18:29,880 --> 00:18:33,880 Speaker 5: vulnerable because we are having all these critical conversations out 309 00:18:33,920 --> 00:18:37,440 Speaker 5: in the open that anyone can see, and then try 310 00:18:37,480 --> 00:18:41,320 Speaker 5: to divert and sew in disinformation at the same time. 311 00:18:41,400 --> 00:18:45,119 Speaker 5: And then we see it with the entertainment blogs that 312 00:18:45,600 --> 00:18:48,920 Speaker 5: good lord. You put it in the big bold, black 313 00:18:49,040 --> 00:18:54,119 Speaker 5: print with the white background, and it's gone. It's millions 314 00:18:53,880 --> 00:18:55,080 Speaker 5: and millions of views. 315 00:18:55,200 --> 00:18:57,159 Speaker 1: I mean, I want to get into this because I 316 00:18:57,240 --> 00:19:00,520 Speaker 1: had to personally kind of divest from a couple of 317 00:19:01,119 --> 00:19:05,680 Speaker 1: very popular Instagram accounts, sort of black infotainment Instagram accounts. 318 00:19:05,680 --> 00:19:08,240 Speaker 1: I guess i'll call it where I realized when I 319 00:19:08,320 --> 00:19:11,000 Speaker 1: scrolled when I was scrolling Instagram and I would see 320 00:19:11,000 --> 00:19:14,359 Speaker 1: one of those images of a headline I won't say 321 00:19:14,400 --> 00:19:16,720 Speaker 1: a news headline, big bold, black and white. 322 00:19:16,920 --> 00:19:18,040 Speaker 2: People will believe. 323 00:19:17,760 --> 00:19:24,520 Speaker 1: Anything, and so often those pieces of content are either misogynistic, 324 00:19:24,640 --> 00:19:27,520 Speaker 1: they're they're crapping on black women, they're crapping on black 325 00:19:27,600 --> 00:19:31,200 Speaker 1: queer youth. It's so easy to package that as hatred 326 00:19:31,280 --> 00:19:34,199 Speaker 1: toward our communities, particularly people in our communities who are 327 00:19:34,240 --> 00:19:36,879 Speaker 1: really vulnerable, and people just eat it up. And I 328 00:19:36,880 --> 00:19:40,159 Speaker 1: guess I wonder, you know, I've sometimes said that I 329 00:19:40,320 --> 00:19:45,880 Speaker 1: believe that things like racism, massogynire, queer phobia, transphobia, all 330 00:19:45,920 --> 00:19:49,159 Speaker 1: of these things are kind of baked into our experience 331 00:19:49,200 --> 00:19:52,040 Speaker 1: of being online. What do you see as the role 332 00:19:52,200 --> 00:19:55,359 Speaker 1: of social media platforms, like are they benefiting from this? 333 00:19:55,440 --> 00:19:57,240 Speaker 1: What should they be doing? What are they not doing? 334 00:19:57,560 --> 00:19:59,879 Speaker 2: What's going on now? 335 00:20:00,119 --> 00:20:03,760 Speaker 4: I think many Americans see social media platforms as the 336 00:20:03,880 --> 00:20:09,040 Speaker 4: digital town square, when in reality, they're private corporations, right, 337 00:20:09,200 --> 00:20:12,920 Speaker 4: and private entities that have control over what you see 338 00:20:12,960 --> 00:20:14,160 Speaker 4: and what you don't see. 339 00:20:14,840 --> 00:20:16,640 Speaker 2: We have more and more research coming out. 340 00:20:16,640 --> 00:20:26,119 Speaker 4: Saying that social media platforms promote content that elicits anger, hurt, feelings, sadness, frustration, 341 00:20:26,280 --> 00:20:26,960 Speaker 4: because that. 342 00:20:26,920 --> 00:20:30,000 Speaker 2: Keeps people on the platform longer. It's like a drug. 343 00:20:30,040 --> 00:20:32,639 Speaker 4: It's addictive, and so if you're seeing only happy things, 344 00:20:32,720 --> 00:20:35,000 Speaker 4: like you're going to want to go outside and see 345 00:20:35,040 --> 00:20:37,280 Speaker 4: the sun and I don't know, sit on the grass. 346 00:20:37,600 --> 00:20:41,280 Speaker 4: Whereas if you're seeing things that are intensely speaking to 347 00:20:42,240 --> 00:20:46,239 Speaker 4: a feeling of anger or hate or frustration. 348 00:20:46,080 --> 00:20:47,920 Speaker 2: You will go down that rabbit hole. 349 00:20:47,960 --> 00:20:51,440 Speaker 4: You will fester on that, and that'll bring in more revenue. 350 00:20:51,600 --> 00:20:55,520 Speaker 4: Right going back to the money. If we follow the money, 351 00:20:55,560 --> 00:20:57,760 Speaker 4: it always goes back to that, right to the people 352 00:20:57,800 --> 00:20:59,879 Speaker 4: that are profiting the most from it. 353 00:20:59,240 --> 00:21:02,680 Speaker 2: And social media platforms profit from disinformation. And I think 354 00:21:02,720 --> 00:21:06,360 Speaker 2: the reality is, not only do we need. 355 00:21:06,240 --> 00:21:08,920 Speaker 4: To open that conversation up and think about us as 356 00:21:09,040 --> 00:21:11,800 Speaker 4: users as having a stake in in what the platforms 357 00:21:11,880 --> 00:21:14,560 Speaker 4: do and how they act, but we also think about 358 00:21:14,560 --> 00:21:21,600 Speaker 4: regulation because we have outdated policy that is supposedly trying 359 00:21:21,640 --> 00:21:24,560 Speaker 4: to regulate tech from the nineties. 360 00:21:25,040 --> 00:21:27,440 Speaker 2: And I think the reality is we need. 361 00:21:27,280 --> 00:21:31,120 Speaker 4: Legislation that meets the needs and the reality of tech 362 00:21:31,200 --> 00:21:33,879 Speaker 4: right now and the potential with what we're seeing with 363 00:21:33,960 --> 00:21:39,080 Speaker 4: AI and other new technologies that are emerging. Because it 364 00:21:39,160 --> 00:21:41,280 Speaker 4: is playing a role in our democracy, and it is 365 00:21:41,320 --> 00:21:43,560 Speaker 4: playing a role in voter suppression, it is playing a 366 00:21:43,640 --> 00:21:46,000 Speaker 4: role in dividing our communities, It's playing a role at 367 00:21:46,040 --> 00:21:48,639 Speaker 4: every level, and these bad actors are. 368 00:21:50,119 --> 00:21:50,920 Speaker 2: Getting rich. 369 00:21:54,960 --> 00:22:07,800 Speaker 1: More after a quick break, let's get right back into it. 370 00:22:09,320 --> 00:22:12,640 Speaker 1: So I'm curious, how do you see disinformation impacting our democracy? 371 00:22:12,680 --> 00:22:17,960 Speaker 4: Like writ large, I mean it has been impacting our democracy, right. 372 00:22:18,119 --> 00:22:20,520 Speaker 2: We had January sixth. 373 00:22:20,400 --> 00:22:25,960 Speaker 4: Happen that was a direct consequence of disinformation that had 374 00:22:26,040 --> 00:22:29,200 Speaker 4: been seen and known by Twitter in particular. It's happening, 375 00:22:29,240 --> 00:22:32,280 Speaker 4: and yet there wasn't really much effort to try and 376 00:22:32,280 --> 00:22:32,760 Speaker 4: stop that. 377 00:22:32,920 --> 00:22:35,919 Speaker 2: And so it's like, how do you keep track of WhatsApp? 378 00:22:36,000 --> 00:22:41,439 Speaker 4: You two, we chat all of these different messenger right, Twitter, Like, 379 00:22:42,000 --> 00:22:44,440 Speaker 4: there's a bajillion different platforms that you have to keep 380 00:22:44,480 --> 00:22:46,640 Speaker 4: track on, and so how do you make sure that 381 00:22:47,040 --> 00:22:50,120 Speaker 4: those various narratives that are coming out on those various 382 00:22:50,160 --> 00:22:55,280 Speaker 4: platforms in completely different languages are both being monitored, that 383 00:22:55,320 --> 00:22:59,119 Speaker 4: accurate information is also being sprinkled throughout that so that 384 00:22:59,200 --> 00:23:01,640 Speaker 4: people know when to vote, how to vote, that it's 385 00:23:01,640 --> 00:23:03,879 Speaker 4: okay to vote, that they can ask for about it 386 00:23:03,960 --> 00:23:07,960 Speaker 4: in their language, that it is actually a violation of 387 00:23:07,960 --> 00:23:10,840 Speaker 4: their right. They're voting right to not get a palot, 388 00:23:10,880 --> 00:23:14,320 Speaker 4: and you know, in a language that they speak, if 389 00:23:14,320 --> 00:23:18,280 Speaker 4: their state or city has you know, certain numbers of 390 00:23:18,359 --> 00:23:19,960 Speaker 4: languages that they'll translate into. 391 00:23:20,040 --> 00:23:22,720 Speaker 1: It speaks to that distrust of institutions that might might 392 00:23:22,760 --> 00:23:23,560 Speaker 1: already be there. 393 00:23:23,720 --> 00:23:23,920 Speaker 2: Right. 394 00:23:24,040 --> 00:23:28,960 Speaker 5: Yeah, along the lines of distrust is African Americans and 395 00:23:29,320 --> 00:23:35,679 Speaker 5: Black Americans in general have a long standing distrust of 396 00:23:35,720 --> 00:23:41,719 Speaker 5: our government for very very legitimate reasons, and the cultural 397 00:23:41,840 --> 00:23:46,240 Speaker 5: or racialized disinformation harps on that and is having a 398 00:23:46,359 --> 00:23:50,399 Speaker 5: direct or seeking to have a concentrated impact on the 399 00:23:50,400 --> 00:23:52,359 Speaker 5: way in which we vote, or whether or not we 400 00:23:52,480 --> 00:23:58,520 Speaker 5: feel it's worthy to vote at all. And so that aspect, 401 00:23:58,560 --> 00:24:02,359 Speaker 5: the voter suppression in the midst of the Voting Rights 402 00:24:02,400 --> 00:24:08,720 Speaker 5: Act being stripped down and already having obstacles to face 403 00:24:08,840 --> 00:24:12,480 Speaker 5: and trying to vote, can have a very devastating impact 404 00:24:12,760 --> 00:24:16,520 Speaker 5: on Black communities and the way in which democracy functions 405 00:24:16,600 --> 00:24:17,880 Speaker 5: or doesn't function for us. 406 00:24:18,800 --> 00:24:19,920 Speaker 2: I wonder, do you all? 407 00:24:20,000 --> 00:24:21,639 Speaker 1: I know I see this a lot sometimes from my 408 00:24:21,680 --> 00:24:25,240 Speaker 1: own friends and family. One of the things about disinformation 409 00:24:25,320 --> 00:24:26,960 Speaker 1: is that I think it's meant to just make us 410 00:24:27,400 --> 00:24:29,560 Speaker 1: check out, check out of our democracy, check out of 411 00:24:29,560 --> 00:24:31,960 Speaker 1: the conversation. It's too confusing, I can't keep it straight. 412 00:24:32,240 --> 00:24:34,439 Speaker 1: And I think a consequence of that is exactly what 413 00:24:34,480 --> 00:24:37,040 Speaker 1: you just said of I'm not going to vote. It's 414 00:24:37,080 --> 00:24:39,680 Speaker 1: not worth it, it doesn't matter. How do you confront 415 00:24:39,720 --> 00:24:43,480 Speaker 1: that sentiment in a climate where disinformation is so rampant. 416 00:24:45,000 --> 00:24:47,440 Speaker 5: I think one of the things that has worked has 417 00:24:48,200 --> 00:24:52,359 Speaker 5: we've learned over the last few years. Talking down to 418 00:24:52,400 --> 00:25:00,720 Speaker 5: people doesn't work, but narrative building works, storytelling works. One 419 00:25:00,760 --> 00:25:02,760 Speaker 5: of the things that we've tried to do at our 420 00:25:02,920 --> 00:25:09,960 Speaker 5: organization is focus on uplifting narratives, intercultural narratives, and storytelling. 421 00:25:10,359 --> 00:25:12,040 Speaker 1: That reminds me of a quote I once heard in 422 00:25:12,080 --> 00:25:15,639 Speaker 1: a training that the antidote to disinformation is not just truth, 423 00:25:15,720 --> 00:25:16,520 Speaker 1: it's community. 424 00:25:16,560 --> 00:25:17,160 Speaker 2: It's connection. 425 00:25:18,119 --> 00:25:22,000 Speaker 5: Yes, definitely, and because we trust our communities the most, 426 00:25:22,520 --> 00:25:27,080 Speaker 5: so we have to lean into that connection, lean into 427 00:25:27,280 --> 00:25:31,879 Speaker 5: especially for communities of color, lean into that cultural understanding, 428 00:25:32,640 --> 00:25:34,560 Speaker 5: lean into that narrative building. 429 00:25:35,320 --> 00:25:38,400 Speaker 1: Let's talk about some additional solutions here, because if there's 430 00:25:38,480 --> 00:25:40,840 Speaker 1: one thing that has really been resonating with me from 431 00:25:40,840 --> 00:25:43,760 Speaker 1: this conversation is that our communities are not monolithic. They 432 00:25:43,800 --> 00:25:48,000 Speaker 1: are diverse, they are multifaceted, they are dynamic. There's so 433 00:25:48,200 --> 00:25:51,600 Speaker 1: many different stories and layers in our communities. So then 434 00:25:52,400 --> 00:25:55,280 Speaker 1: the solution probably can't then be one size fits all. 435 00:25:55,320 --> 00:25:58,080 Speaker 1: So how do we get to solutions for this massive 436 00:25:58,080 --> 00:25:59,800 Speaker 1: problem that disinformation presents. 437 00:26:00,320 --> 00:26:02,639 Speaker 4: Yeah, I think that speaks to everything we've brought up 438 00:26:03,080 --> 00:26:07,520 Speaker 4: throughout the conversation. Right, It's about inter intrat solidarity building. 439 00:26:07,600 --> 00:26:12,600 Speaker 4: It's about finding and identifying leaders within the community and 440 00:26:12,640 --> 00:26:15,480 Speaker 4: making sure that they're equipped to have these conversations. It's 441 00:26:15,520 --> 00:26:19,679 Speaker 4: about meeting people where they're at. It's about having compassion 442 00:26:19,720 --> 00:26:23,800 Speaker 4: in those conversations, because anyone can fall for disinformation, and 443 00:26:24,520 --> 00:26:27,000 Speaker 4: anyone can be a champion in fighting disinformation. 444 00:26:27,920 --> 00:26:28,120 Speaker 5: Yeah. 445 00:26:28,160 --> 00:26:33,439 Speaker 3: So I would say, first and foremost understand that disinformation 446 00:26:33,720 --> 00:26:37,919 Speaker 3: that impacts adjacent communities is also impacting you. 447 00:26:37,920 --> 00:26:38,159 Speaker 2: You know. 448 00:26:38,240 --> 00:26:40,480 Speaker 3: So as an advocate, when I go out and I 449 00:26:40,600 --> 00:26:43,320 Speaker 3: ask Latinos to come out and vote, I'm not just 450 00:26:43,440 --> 00:26:46,720 Speaker 3: asking those that look like me and live like me. 451 00:26:46,960 --> 00:26:49,919 Speaker 3: I'm asking queer Latinos, I'm asking after Latinos, I'm asking 452 00:26:49,920 --> 00:26:52,720 Speaker 3: age and Latinos. I'm asking everybody. So I have to 453 00:26:52,760 --> 00:26:55,879 Speaker 3: show up for them when I see these attacks against 454 00:26:55,880 --> 00:26:56,600 Speaker 3: their community. 455 00:26:57,280 --> 00:27:04,119 Speaker 5: One key solution is for communities, for activists, for researchers 456 00:27:04,320 --> 00:27:11,320 Speaker 5: that are concerned about disinformation to hold institutions accountable. They 457 00:27:11,400 --> 00:27:15,919 Speaker 5: often get out scott free on these conversations, but I 458 00:27:16,040 --> 00:27:21,440 Speaker 5: kind of mentioned this earlier. For example, during the COVID shutdown, 459 00:27:21,560 --> 00:27:25,400 Speaker 5: there was all this conversation about the black community and 460 00:27:25,840 --> 00:27:28,800 Speaker 5: getting the black community to trust and why is there 461 00:27:28,840 --> 00:27:32,639 Speaker 5: so much distrust? And I'm like, do you know America? 462 00:27:32,800 --> 00:27:40,679 Speaker 5: And there was all these different narratives about medical distrust 463 00:27:41,200 --> 00:27:44,439 Speaker 5: and not as much that should have been discussed on 464 00:27:44,520 --> 00:27:50,280 Speaker 5: medical racism. And so in order to build that trust again, 465 00:27:50,680 --> 00:27:54,159 Speaker 5: you're going to have to deconstruct and break down the 466 00:27:54,200 --> 00:27:58,240 Speaker 5: structural bias, the institutional racism, and all of the things 467 00:27:58,520 --> 00:28:02,200 Speaker 5: that made our communities distrust you in the first place. 468 00:28:02,119 --> 00:28:04,640 Speaker 3: One hundred percent. And then I'll say one more thing, 469 00:28:04,680 --> 00:28:08,280 Speaker 3: which is about holding tech accountable. Do not fear tech. 470 00:28:09,240 --> 00:28:13,359 Speaker 3: Do not fear tech because tech is not perfect. Right, 471 00:28:13,480 --> 00:28:15,840 Speaker 3: So I see a lot of people who hear the 472 00:28:15,960 --> 00:28:18,879 Speaker 3: term AI and they get so intimidated they clam up 473 00:28:18,880 --> 00:28:21,880 Speaker 3: and listen. They have a lot to learn too, They're 474 00:28:21,920 --> 00:28:22,560 Speaker 3: not perfect. 475 00:28:22,920 --> 00:28:25,040 Speaker 1: I'm so glad that you mentioned that, because I think 476 00:28:25,040 --> 00:28:28,280 Speaker 1: one of the biggest things in this conversation is changing 477 00:28:28,320 --> 00:28:31,680 Speaker 1: this dynamic that says that tech and tech leaders they 478 00:28:31,720 --> 00:28:33,360 Speaker 1: have all the answers, and who are we. 479 00:28:33,359 --> 00:28:34,040 Speaker 2: To question them? 480 00:28:34,280 --> 00:28:36,360 Speaker 1: You're not an engineer, You didn't go to Harvard, You're 481 00:28:36,400 --> 00:28:38,240 Speaker 1: not Mark Zuckerberg or not Elon Musk. 482 00:28:38,400 --> 00:28:39,760 Speaker 2: Who are you to ask questions? 483 00:28:39,840 --> 00:28:41,640 Speaker 1: This dynamic that says that you get to make as 484 00:28:41,680 --> 00:28:44,600 Speaker 1: much money as you want, exploiting us and causing chaos 485 00:28:44,640 --> 00:28:46,960 Speaker 1: and distrust in our communities, and we don't get to 486 00:28:46,960 --> 00:28:49,200 Speaker 1: have a say that is incorrect. And so I think 487 00:28:49,360 --> 00:28:52,760 Speaker 1: to your point, everybody should understand their role in this 488 00:28:52,840 --> 00:28:55,640 Speaker 1: dynamic and reject anything that says who are you to 489 00:28:55,680 --> 00:28:57,880 Speaker 1: ask questions? We're the public, That's who we are, and 490 00:28:57,920 --> 00:29:00,560 Speaker 1: we deserve transparency and accountability, and you will not exploit 491 00:29:00,680 --> 00:29:01,320 Speaker 1: us to make money. 492 00:29:01,520 --> 00:29:04,480 Speaker 3: And more specifically, who am I? I am a woman 493 00:29:04,520 --> 00:29:07,600 Speaker 3: of color who is using your product in a very 494 00:29:07,640 --> 00:29:10,640 Speaker 3: different way than you do, and frankly than many of 495 00:29:10,680 --> 00:29:13,240 Speaker 3: the people who were at the table when this product 496 00:29:13,320 --> 00:29:13,920 Speaker 3: was created. 497 00:29:14,400 --> 00:29:17,080 Speaker 1: I'm sure you've encountered the same disinformation and tech space 498 00:29:17,160 --> 00:29:19,920 Speaker 1: and landscape that I have, which is often white men 499 00:29:20,000 --> 00:29:23,320 Speaker 1: self congratulating other white men. What does it mean for 500 00:29:23,360 --> 00:29:25,760 Speaker 1: you to be in this fight as a person who 501 00:29:25,800 --> 00:29:28,560 Speaker 1: is not often represented in these conversations. 502 00:29:28,960 --> 00:29:31,360 Speaker 5: I think for me, it just means going to bat 503 00:29:31,400 --> 00:29:35,240 Speaker 5: for my community, speeding up for my community, from a 504 00:29:36,800 --> 00:29:40,920 Speaker 5: not only a personal it is personal because I know 505 00:29:41,520 --> 00:29:47,600 Speaker 5: the Black struggle from transatlantic slave trade to now in 506 00:29:47,640 --> 00:29:53,160 Speaker 5: the United States and understanding that whole cultural history and 507 00:29:53,240 --> 00:29:58,240 Speaker 5: aspect of it, and so for me is a personal dynamic, 508 00:29:58,280 --> 00:30:02,680 Speaker 5: But it's also an informed and culturally competent one that 509 00:30:02,840 --> 00:30:05,800 Speaker 5: is so very much needed, because in these conversations we 510 00:30:05,920 --> 00:30:10,920 Speaker 5: often get people that are tested with fighting disinformation but 511 00:30:11,040 --> 00:30:16,240 Speaker 5: not really understanding the cultural aspects and nuances of different communities. 512 00:30:17,280 --> 00:30:19,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean everything you said. 513 00:30:19,360 --> 00:30:25,200 Speaker 4: I think there's a desperate need for faces, experiences, perspectives 514 00:30:25,240 --> 00:30:30,280 Speaker 4: like ours at the table. And at the same time, 515 00:30:30,680 --> 00:30:33,480 Speaker 4: you know, sometimes we need to break the table a 516 00:30:33,520 --> 00:30:33,960 Speaker 4: little bit. 517 00:30:34,360 --> 00:30:38,120 Speaker 2: But I wouldn't call myself an expert because we've all lived. 518 00:30:37,880 --> 00:30:42,640 Speaker 4: These experiences of either being targeted by hate campaigns, seeing 519 00:30:42,680 --> 00:30:47,680 Speaker 4: loved ones fall victim to it, accidentally falling for disinformation, 520 00:30:47,840 --> 00:30:48,880 Speaker 4: like all of those things. 521 00:30:48,920 --> 00:30:50,560 Speaker 2: And so we all are users of. 522 00:30:50,520 --> 00:30:55,000 Speaker 4: This platform, of these various platforms, we all experience and 523 00:30:55,080 --> 00:30:59,520 Speaker 4: naviate a world filled with dismiss malinformation. So it's about 524 00:31:00,120 --> 00:31:05,000 Speaker 4: naming that, pushing our way through gathering in spaces like 525 00:31:05,040 --> 00:31:09,440 Speaker 4: this and talking really frankly and honestly about the need 526 00:31:09,680 --> 00:31:13,400 Speaker 4: for movement building that looks to our past so we 527 00:31:13,400 --> 00:31:16,240 Speaker 4: can build like a better, stronger future and a stronger 528 00:31:16,280 --> 00:31:24,080 Speaker 4: foundation for multicultural, multi lingual solidarity so we can counter 529 00:31:24,160 --> 00:31:25,000 Speaker 4: this disinformation. 530 00:31:25,880 --> 00:31:28,560 Speaker 3: So for me, this is really a voter suppression issue. 531 00:31:28,560 --> 00:31:33,720 Speaker 3: I think of disinformation as voter suppression, and it's a 532 00:31:33,720 --> 00:31:36,960 Speaker 3: democracy issue. So I see it as my way to 533 00:31:37,040 --> 00:31:42,720 Speaker 3: contribute to voting rights struggles that precede me by centuries, 534 00:31:43,360 --> 00:31:46,120 Speaker 3: and as my way to contribute to a lot of 535 00:31:46,120 --> 00:31:50,520 Speaker 3: civil rights struggles where folks really need to see that 536 00:31:50,640 --> 00:31:53,120 Speaker 3: you can come here as an immigrant and see a 537 00:31:53,160 --> 00:31:57,480 Speaker 3: strong democracy that works, that your vote matters, that you 538 00:31:57,520 --> 00:31:59,840 Speaker 3: should cast a ballot because you can make a difference 539 00:32:00,000 --> 00:32:01,760 Speaker 3: and you can move your community forward. 540 00:32:02,760 --> 00:32:05,840 Speaker 1: If you can leave folks listening and watching with one thing, 541 00:32:06,360 --> 00:32:06,960 Speaker 1: what would it be. 542 00:32:10,040 --> 00:32:12,320 Speaker 2: We all have a lot more power than I think. 543 00:32:13,960 --> 00:32:17,960 Speaker 4: Then it often feels, and I feel like we as 544 00:32:18,000 --> 00:32:22,600 Speaker 4: individuals as a collective can really make an impact and 545 00:32:22,640 --> 00:32:25,000 Speaker 4: make some real change when it comes to the issues 546 00:32:25,000 --> 00:32:29,600 Speaker 4: of disinformation, both within our communities, but also holding those 547 00:32:29,600 --> 00:32:30,800 Speaker 4: bad actors accountable. 548 00:32:32,240 --> 00:32:34,920 Speaker 2: Don't let the world telling you you're small. 549 00:32:34,520 --> 00:32:36,760 Speaker 4: Hold you back, because I think there's a lot of 550 00:32:36,760 --> 00:32:38,360 Speaker 4: work that we all can do together. 551 00:32:39,720 --> 00:32:43,280 Speaker 3: I would say that your trust is a really valuable commodity. 552 00:32:43,400 --> 00:32:45,480 Speaker 3: There's a lot of people out there trying to erode 553 00:32:45,480 --> 00:32:49,840 Speaker 3: your trust. Why is that right. It's a really valuable commodity, 554 00:32:50,560 --> 00:32:53,520 Speaker 3: So treat it as such and be really careful with 555 00:32:53,560 --> 00:32:54,400 Speaker 3: where you place it. 556 00:32:55,040 --> 00:32:57,000 Speaker 5: To follow up with that would trust me in a 557 00:32:57,080 --> 00:33:03,640 Speaker 5: valuable commodity. Your actions are valuable commodity. Your viewpoint on 558 00:33:03,680 --> 00:33:09,200 Speaker 5: the world, the way you view culture, democracy is valuable, 559 00:33:09,600 --> 00:33:12,160 Speaker 5: and so I think one of the things that I 560 00:33:12,160 --> 00:33:16,200 Speaker 5: would leave with people is trying to gain more understanding 561 00:33:16,240 --> 00:33:23,000 Speaker 5: about how this all works, but also understanding that there 562 00:33:23,040 --> 00:33:26,920 Speaker 5: are systems at play and that we have to hold 563 00:33:26,960 --> 00:33:30,880 Speaker 5: these institutions accountable more so than we would hold the 564 00:33:30,920 --> 00:33:34,080 Speaker 5: average person accountable, because the average person is who is 565 00:33:34,120 --> 00:33:34,880 Speaker 5: being targeted. 566 00:33:35,520 --> 00:33:38,440 Speaker 1: Jaya, Liz, Jessica, thank you so much for being here, 567 00:33:38,480 --> 00:33:40,800 Speaker 1: and thank you for being in this fight, in this work. 568 00:33:40,800 --> 00:33:43,080 Speaker 1: We're so grateful for you, and thanks to all of 569 00:33:43,080 --> 00:33:51,280 Speaker 1: you for watching. Got a story about an interesting thing 570 00:33:51,320 --> 00:33:53,320 Speaker 1: in tech. I just want to say hi. You can 571 00:33:53,400 --> 00:33:55,600 Speaker 1: reach us at Hello at Tegody dot com. You can 572 00:33:55,640 --> 00:33:58,480 Speaker 1: also find transcripts for today's episode at tengody dot com. 573 00:33:58,680 --> 00:33:59,760 Speaker 2: There are no girls on the Internet. 574 00:33:59,800 --> 00:34:03,400 Speaker 1: With Brigit Toad. It's a production of iHeartRadio and Unbossed. 575 00:34:03,400 --> 00:34:07,040 Speaker 1: Creative Jonathan Strickland is our executive producer. Terry Harrison is 576 00:34:07,040 --> 00:34:10,680 Speaker 1: our producer and sound engineer. Michael Amado is our contributing producer. 577 00:34:10,960 --> 00:34:13,640 Speaker 1: I'm your host, bridget Toad. If you want to help 578 00:34:13,680 --> 00:34:16,680 Speaker 1: us grow, rate and review us on Apple Podcasts. For 579 00:34:16,760 --> 00:34:20,160 Speaker 1: more podcasts from iHeartRadio, check out the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 580 00:34:20,200 --> 00:34:25,160 Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts.