1 00:00:14,240 --> 00:00:19,760 Speaker 1: The Armenians became a sort of threat to the Ottoman rulers. 2 00:00:20,560 --> 00:00:23,800 Speaker 1: They rounded all of the intellectuals, all of the potential 3 00:00:23,840 --> 00:00:28,800 Speaker 1: community leaders, and executed them or exiled them. They disarmed 4 00:00:28,880 --> 00:00:33,080 Speaker 1: the men, took their weapons, took their arms, and sent 5 00:00:33,159 --> 00:00:39,239 Speaker 1: them to labor camps and to eventual death. What was 6 00:00:39,360 --> 00:00:43,360 Speaker 1: left where the elderly women and children. They set them 7 00:00:43,360 --> 00:00:47,240 Speaker 1: on marches. These were death marches, so they were sent 8 00:00:47,560 --> 00:00:58,360 Speaker 1: to their deaths. So basically it is a government eradicating 9 00:00:58,480 --> 00:01:04,720 Speaker 1: its own people. I think people find it so strange. Right, 10 00:01:04,760 --> 00:01:07,080 Speaker 1: it's been over a hundred years, what's the big deal? 11 00:01:07,200 --> 00:01:10,480 Speaker 1: Get over it? But I don't think people realize that 12 00:01:10,520 --> 00:01:22,520 Speaker 1: it's a lived experience for all of us. I'm Chris 13 00:01:22,520 --> 00:01:26,400 Speaker 1: Garcia and this is Finding Raffie, a ten part series 14 00:01:26,440 --> 00:01:29,280 Speaker 1: from My Heart Radio and Fatherly in partnership with The 15 00:01:29,319 --> 00:01:35,000 Speaker 1: Rococo Punch about the life, philosophy, and the work of Raffie, 16 00:01:35,800 --> 00:01:47,240 Speaker 1: the man behind the music. Rafie never set out to 17 00:01:47,280 --> 00:01:50,480 Speaker 1: make music for kids. A year before his first children's 18 00:01:50,480 --> 00:01:53,919 Speaker 1: album came out, he released this instrumental honoring his roots. 19 00:01:54,720 --> 00:02:00,840 Speaker 1: It's called Impressions of Armenia. He wrote it before the 20 00:02:00,840 --> 00:02:03,520 Speaker 1: Fall of the Soviet Union after spending three weeks in 21 00:02:03,640 --> 00:02:06,640 Speaker 1: Armenia with his brother and sister, an invitation from the 22 00:02:06,680 --> 00:02:13,480 Speaker 1: government because of their father's renowned photography career. When we went, 23 00:02:13,680 --> 00:02:16,040 Speaker 1: we were the privileged ones getting to see it in 24 00:02:16,040 --> 00:02:19,440 Speaker 1: a very unique way because some of the resorts that 25 00:02:19,560 --> 00:02:22,440 Speaker 1: we went to and state that the people didn't even 26 00:02:22,440 --> 00:02:26,520 Speaker 1: know they existed. It was very much closed society in 27 00:02:26,560 --> 00:02:31,520 Speaker 1: the Soviet Union era. So it was very moving and 28 00:02:31,880 --> 00:02:35,320 Speaker 1: heartbreaking in some ways and promising in other ways. You know, 29 00:02:35,360 --> 00:02:39,720 Speaker 1: it was just a lot to process emotionally. Impressions of 30 00:02:39,800 --> 00:02:41,600 Speaker 1: Armenia is a song that tells the story of a 31 00:02:41,680 --> 00:02:45,760 Speaker 1: homeland raf he's never fully known, of a country and 32 00:02:45,800 --> 00:02:49,360 Speaker 1: a people who survived the fall of empires, a genocide, 33 00:02:49,520 --> 00:02:54,440 Speaker 1: and diaspora. Rafi was born in Egypt and raised in Canada, 34 00:02:54,600 --> 00:02:58,440 Speaker 1: but the history of his Armenian ancestors flows through him. 35 00:02:58,480 --> 00:03:00,919 Speaker 1: He may not include an explicit at lee in his music, 36 00:03:01,320 --> 00:03:04,760 Speaker 1: but like so many Armenian artists, that legacy has shaped 37 00:03:04,800 --> 00:03:12,080 Speaker 1: his life and his work. It was night in Cairo. 38 00:03:12,440 --> 00:03:15,320 Speaker 1: The wedding of seventeen year old King Farouk of Egypt 39 00:03:15,480 --> 00:03:18,480 Speaker 1: was the event of the decade, complete with a procession 40 00:03:18,520 --> 00:03:22,120 Speaker 1: of flowered parade floats, twinkling lights displayed all over the 41 00:03:22,200 --> 00:03:25,320 Speaker 1: royal Palace, and a glamorous Parisian wedding gown for the 42 00:03:25,400 --> 00:03:29,560 Speaker 1: King's sixteen year old bride, Queen Ferida. And among the 43 00:03:29,600 --> 00:03:34,639 Speaker 1: celebrations performers was a young accordionist Arto Cabukian, Raphae's father. 44 00:03:35,720 --> 00:03:39,000 Speaker 1: My father was quite a musician. He played two or 45 00:03:39,000 --> 00:03:43,720 Speaker 1: three instruments, primarily the accordion, which is what I heard 46 00:03:43,760 --> 00:03:45,960 Speaker 1: him playing while we were growing up, and in family 47 00:03:46,440 --> 00:03:50,240 Speaker 1: gatherings and parties, we would always urge him to take 48 00:03:50,240 --> 00:03:55,360 Speaker 1: out his big red accordion. Arto's accordion playing led him 49 00:03:55,360 --> 00:03:58,680 Speaker 1: to Lucy Papasian. The two met at another wedding where 50 00:03:58,760 --> 00:04:02,400 Speaker 1: Arto is performing and where Ardo danced only with Lucy. 51 00:04:02,760 --> 00:04:08,360 Speaker 1: A few months later, they married five years later. Rafi 52 00:04:08,440 --> 00:04:13,280 Speaker 1: Kabukian was born in Cairo, Egypt. Art, music, and literature 53 00:04:13,320 --> 00:04:16,200 Speaker 1: were highly valued by the Kabukians, so they named their 54 00:04:16,200 --> 00:04:19,880 Speaker 1: second son after one of Lucy's favorite Armenian authors, a 55 00:04:19,920 --> 00:04:23,440 Speaker 1: patriotic novelist and poet who used the pen name Raffi. 56 00:04:26,360 --> 00:04:29,280 Speaker 1: Rafi Kabukian grew up in Cairo in the nineteen fifties. 57 00:04:29,640 --> 00:04:32,320 Speaker 1: He was the middle kid between his older brother Ownig 58 00:04:32,360 --> 00:04:35,760 Speaker 1: and his younger sister Annie. Ownig and Raffi shared a 59 00:04:35,839 --> 00:04:38,640 Speaker 1: room with their grandmother in the family's three bedroom apartment. 60 00:04:39,120 --> 00:04:41,160 Speaker 1: It was a place where you could find hidden chocolates 61 00:04:41,160 --> 00:04:43,880 Speaker 1: in the dining room, where the Armenian rugs were perfect 62 00:04:43,920 --> 00:04:46,680 Speaker 1: for playing marbles and were pickled cucumbers are ready for 63 00:04:46,720 --> 00:04:50,360 Speaker 1: snacking in the kitchen. And there was also the music. 64 00:04:50,680 --> 00:04:53,599 Speaker 1: I think we used to hear on our family stereo 65 00:04:53,680 --> 00:04:57,240 Speaker 1: set hi fi. We used to go the music we 66 00:04:57,240 --> 00:05:00,320 Speaker 1: were listening to in the fifties, which were my formative years. 67 00:05:01,080 --> 00:05:05,120 Speaker 1: We're pop music of the time from Europe, from all over, 68 00:05:05,920 --> 00:05:13,600 Speaker 1: and these songs were melodic. Melody to me is something 69 00:05:13,720 --> 00:05:17,160 Speaker 1: that's just indispensable when the custom music making soul. It's 70 00:05:17,200 --> 00:05:21,520 Speaker 1: just interesting to remember that as a form of development 71 00:05:22,040 --> 00:05:26,680 Speaker 1: from my Cairo years and my Armenian family with the 72 00:05:26,760 --> 00:05:30,440 Speaker 1: rugs and the hi fi. But not all of Ralphie's 73 00:05:30,480 --> 00:05:35,880 Speaker 1: childhood memories were heartwarming. I was mocked and humiliated at times, 74 00:05:35,920 --> 00:05:39,080 Speaker 1: and I was hit and I couldn't square that with 75 00:05:39,520 --> 00:05:42,200 Speaker 1: the fact that I knew I was loved, So why 76 00:05:42,240 --> 00:05:46,000 Speaker 1: didn't I feel respected for who I felt I was. 77 00:05:51,920 --> 00:05:55,599 Speaker 1: In his autobiography, Raffie writes that a sharp slap in 78 00:05:55,640 --> 00:05:58,200 Speaker 1: the face or a snide remark from his mother and 79 00:05:58,279 --> 00:06:01,040 Speaker 1: father were at odds with the warmth of their hugs 80 00:06:01,040 --> 00:06:05,279 Speaker 1: and compliments. That when company came around, his parents would 81 00:06:05,320 --> 00:06:08,200 Speaker 1: make him perform a song or a poem for their guests, 82 00:06:08,240 --> 00:06:11,919 Speaker 1: expecting him to do it without complaint and without error. 83 00:06:12,760 --> 00:06:16,680 Speaker 1: If Raffie did well, he was praised. If not, his 84 00:06:16,720 --> 00:06:19,720 Speaker 1: embarrassment and shame were swept aside with a comment about 85 00:06:19,880 --> 00:06:25,760 Speaker 1: doing better next time. That sense of shame and disrespect 86 00:06:26,400 --> 00:06:30,200 Speaker 1: Raffi would carry that for years. He would eventually process 87 00:06:30,240 --> 00:06:33,320 Speaker 1: it and form a philosophy around how kids should be treated, 88 00:06:33,760 --> 00:06:43,760 Speaker 1: one that centered around respect. Raffie's parents loomed large in 89 00:06:43,800 --> 00:06:48,440 Speaker 1: his life, especially his father Ardo. He ran a photography studio, 90 00:06:49,000 --> 00:06:54,120 Speaker 1: Studio cavuc originally founded by Arto's father, Ohannas Cavukian. Arto 91 00:06:54,200 --> 00:06:57,680 Speaker 1: was skilled at shooting, retouching, and framing photographs, but he 92 00:06:57,800 --> 00:07:01,760 Speaker 1: was a master portrait artist. He'd work every day, coming 93 00:07:01,800 --> 00:07:04,839 Speaker 1: home only for a meal and a nap. On Sundays, 94 00:07:04,839 --> 00:07:07,599 Speaker 1: he took his family to church and the Pyramids and 95 00:07:07,720 --> 00:07:11,280 Speaker 1: always ended the day back at the studio. He also 96 00:07:11,360 --> 00:07:14,680 Speaker 1: had an impressive client list of dignitaries like the former 97 00:07:14,760 --> 00:07:17,160 Speaker 1: King of Egypt and the head of the Armenian Church. 98 00:07:18,480 --> 00:07:21,280 Speaker 1: Ardo and his family were like an Armenian gold standard, 99 00:07:21,680 --> 00:07:25,040 Speaker 1: an example of what dedication, hard work, and resilience could 100 00:07:25,120 --> 00:07:29,360 Speaker 1: create even after a horrific genocide. There were stories of 101 00:07:29,480 --> 00:07:35,880 Speaker 1: survival of my families survival from the massacres of the 102 00:07:35,880 --> 00:07:39,840 Speaker 1: Ottoman Empire, both sides of the family, and my mother 103 00:07:39,880 --> 00:07:46,440 Speaker 1: and my father in infancy. Their families survived. The Armenian genocide, 104 00:07:46,640 --> 00:07:50,960 Speaker 1: planned and perpetrated by Ottoman Turkish authorities, took place between 105 00:07:51,000 --> 00:07:54,680 Speaker 1: the spring of nineteen fifteen and the fall of nineteen sixteen, 106 00:07:55,120 --> 00:07:59,200 Speaker 1: and the death toll varies widely. Figures range from six 107 00:07:59,280 --> 00:08:02,600 Speaker 1: hundred thousand to as many as one point two million 108 00:08:02,680 --> 00:08:06,760 Speaker 1: ethnic Armenian Christians, and that doesn't include the hundreds and 109 00:08:06,800 --> 00:08:10,720 Speaker 1: thousands of Assyrians and Greeks who were also targeted. By 110 00:08:10,720 --> 00:08:13,600 Speaker 1: the end of World War One, it's estimated that more 111 00:08:13,640 --> 00:08:17,320 Speaker 1: than nine of Armenians and the Ottoman Empire had died. 112 00:08:23,040 --> 00:08:26,400 Speaker 1: Raphie heard his family's harrowing stories all throughout his childhood 113 00:08:27,080 --> 00:08:31,560 Speaker 1: Lucy's father escaped death seven times. He was a building foreman, 114 00:08:31,800 --> 00:08:34,720 Speaker 1: and the Turkish officials always ended up sparing him so 115 00:08:34,800 --> 00:08:39,600 Speaker 1: they could use his valuable skills. Arto's father, Ohanis, was 116 00:08:39,640 --> 00:08:42,560 Speaker 1: an artist. The night before he, his wife, and his 117 00:08:42,640 --> 00:08:46,520 Speaker 1: month old son Ardo faced execution, he stayed up drawing 118 00:08:46,520 --> 00:08:50,880 Speaker 1: a charcoal portrait of the general commanding officer. When the 119 00:08:50,960 --> 00:08:54,560 Speaker 1: officers saw the sketch, he was so impressed he assigned 120 00:08:54,559 --> 00:08:59,400 Speaker 1: Ohannis to Aleppo to teach drawing. His entire family was saved, 121 00:08:59,520 --> 00:09:02,600 Speaker 1: along with nearly thirty people after Ihan has claimed them 122 00:09:02,640 --> 00:09:08,720 Speaker 1: all as family members, all saved because of his drawing. 123 00:09:12,720 --> 00:09:16,680 Speaker 1: Isn't an amazing story, right, stories of how arts saved 124 00:09:16,679 --> 00:09:23,040 Speaker 1: the day. Do you think your family's trauma leaving Armenia 125 00:09:23,160 --> 00:09:26,640 Speaker 1: has impacted you? That's too hard a question to answer. 126 00:09:27,480 --> 00:09:32,160 Speaker 1: Of course, it's impacted me. We are products of our experience. 127 00:09:33,280 --> 00:09:37,319 Speaker 1: So I've written about this in my autobiography. I've talked 128 00:09:37,360 --> 00:09:40,480 Speaker 1: about it. I mean, you know, the stories that you 129 00:09:40,559 --> 00:09:43,800 Speaker 1: grow up with, they are the content that you have 130 00:09:43,880 --> 00:09:48,240 Speaker 1: to make sense of and then you decide their role 131 00:09:48,520 --> 00:09:52,440 Speaker 1: in your emotional landscape. Are those stories going to drive you? 132 00:09:53,000 --> 00:09:56,600 Speaker 1: Or are they going to enrich your sense of who 133 00:09:56,679 --> 00:09:59,360 Speaker 1: you feel you are and what it feels possible for you. 134 00:10:03,679 --> 00:10:06,240 Speaker 1: This is not where I expected to end up when 135 00:10:06,240 --> 00:10:11,199 Speaker 1: I started listening to Raffie's music, Genocide and trauma. Could 136 00:10:11,240 --> 00:10:14,040 Speaker 1: anything be further away from the image we have of 137 00:10:14,120 --> 00:10:17,120 Speaker 1: the guy who sings about baby whales and banana phones. 138 00:10:18,240 --> 00:10:21,960 Speaker 1: I began to realize the profound empathy I registered in 139 00:10:22,040 --> 00:10:26,640 Speaker 1: his music came from a really deep place. Perhaps without 140 00:10:26,679 --> 00:10:46,080 Speaker 1: these stories, Raffie wouldn't be Raffie. There's the generation who 141 00:10:46,120 --> 00:10:49,280 Speaker 1: lived the trauma, and then there are the generations who 142 00:10:49,280 --> 00:10:52,680 Speaker 1: are descendants of those who are traumatized. They didn't live 143 00:10:52,760 --> 00:10:57,400 Speaker 1: the trauma, but they carry this trauma. This is Dr 144 00:10:57,480 --> 00:11:00,720 Speaker 1: Shushan got up at theon She's the deputy director of 145 00:11:00,800 --> 00:11:05,200 Speaker 1: the University of Southern California's Institute of Armenian Studies. I 146 00:11:05,240 --> 00:11:08,240 Speaker 1: think it's it's not difficult to imagine the kind of 147 00:11:08,960 --> 00:11:17,000 Speaker 1: trauma surviving, the trauma of rebuilding, um of being in 148 00:11:17,040 --> 00:11:21,280 Speaker 1: an environment where you're not sure you're welcome, of your 149 00:11:21,320 --> 00:11:26,120 Speaker 1: family being torn apart of maybe missing important family members, 150 00:11:26,960 --> 00:11:33,079 Speaker 1: language issues, cultural issues, this kind of constant upheaval each 151 00:11:33,120 --> 00:11:36,120 Speaker 1: family dealt with the trauma of the genocide in its 152 00:11:36,120 --> 00:11:40,240 Speaker 1: own way. Raphie's family faced it head on, sharing their 153 00:11:40,280 --> 00:11:44,599 Speaker 1: story from generation to generation, while others did the opposite. 154 00:11:45,120 --> 00:11:48,640 Speaker 1: There were groups who completely shut down and their method 155 00:11:48,640 --> 00:11:51,800 Speaker 1: of dealing with this was to just eradicate the memory 156 00:11:52,080 --> 00:11:56,040 Speaker 1: and kind of disassociate. There were those who stayed in 157 00:11:56,080 --> 00:11:58,480 Speaker 1: a stage of anger, and there were those who talked 158 00:11:58,520 --> 00:12:04,720 Speaker 1: about it NonStop. There are two kinds of survivors. The 159 00:12:04,760 --> 00:12:10,080 Speaker 1: survivors who write memoirs, who have the luminous stories that 160 00:12:10,160 --> 00:12:13,760 Speaker 1: they want to share, and then there are survivors like 161 00:12:14,600 --> 00:12:20,560 Speaker 1: my grandparents, who shared almost nothing. This is Chris boj Alien. 162 00:12:20,800 --> 00:12:23,160 Speaker 1: He's an Armenian American author who has written more than 163 00:12:23,200 --> 00:12:28,000 Speaker 1: twenty bucks, including Midwives, The Flight Attendant, and The Sandcastle Girls, 164 00:12:28,200 --> 00:12:32,240 Speaker 1: which is centered around the Armenian genocide. Chris remembers hearing 165 00:12:32,240 --> 00:12:34,600 Speaker 1: a story about his aunt and uncle who are starting 166 00:12:34,600 --> 00:12:36,760 Speaker 1: a chain of yogurt stands in New York City in 167 00:12:36,800 --> 00:12:43,040 Speaker 1: the nineteen seventies. They were explaining the business plan to 168 00:12:43,120 --> 00:12:48,400 Speaker 1: my Armenian grandmother, and my Armenian grandmother says, oh, of course, 169 00:12:48,440 --> 00:12:52,880 Speaker 1: and you'll be serving tongue, which is in Armenian or 170 00:12:53,000 --> 00:12:58,720 Speaker 1: Middle Eastern yogurt drink, and my aunt says yes, and 171 00:12:58,760 --> 00:13:02,720 Speaker 1: then my grandmother is to her, oh, well, that's one 172 00:13:02,760 --> 00:13:05,040 Speaker 1: of the reasons why my parents first took me out 173 00:13:05,040 --> 00:13:09,880 Speaker 1: of the school. They used the tom to poison the children, 174 00:13:10,920 --> 00:13:15,520 Speaker 1: and my aunt says, ma, what are you talking about. 175 00:13:15,960 --> 00:13:19,000 Speaker 1: And of course my grandmother had never shared with her 176 00:13:19,080 --> 00:13:23,559 Speaker 1: daughter the story of when in an Ottoman school at 177 00:13:23,600 --> 00:13:26,840 Speaker 1: the start of the Armenian genocide, some of the children 178 00:13:26,840 --> 00:13:33,920 Speaker 1: were poisoned with tom. So little by little the stories 179 00:13:33,960 --> 00:13:38,400 Speaker 1: would emerge, but it was a trickle because the trauma 180 00:13:38,559 --> 00:13:42,439 Speaker 1: was so deeply ingrained inside them that they kept it 181 00:13:42,520 --> 00:13:49,720 Speaker 1: to themselves. And then, of course there's the denial. Shushan says. 182 00:13:49,800 --> 00:13:52,280 Speaker 1: Part of what keeps the trauma alive is the lack 183 00:13:52,320 --> 00:13:55,560 Speaker 1: of recognition from the Turkish government. It has offered its 184 00:13:55,559 --> 00:13:59,280 Speaker 1: condolences for the atrocities while actively denying any plan to 185 00:13:59,360 --> 00:14:04,880 Speaker 1: systematic we wipe out Armenian Christians despite extensive documentation. This 186 00:14:05,000 --> 00:14:11,920 Speaker 1: denial has kept the wound open and festering and kind 187 00:14:11,920 --> 00:14:17,720 Speaker 1: of made the genocide this root paradigm in the Armenian narrative, 188 00:14:18,240 --> 00:14:24,200 Speaker 1: the victimization. The trauma is constantly relived because there is 189 00:14:24,240 --> 00:14:28,600 Speaker 1: no healing because there is no opportunity for moving on. 190 00:14:29,360 --> 00:14:31,520 Speaker 1: Right because last year was the first time an American 191 00:14:31,560 --> 00:14:36,360 Speaker 1: president actually called it a genocide. Absolutely, because of the denial, 192 00:14:36,520 --> 00:14:41,400 Speaker 1: genocide recognition has become the priority on all Armenian platforms. 193 00:14:41,920 --> 00:14:44,840 Speaker 1: It's as if we can't move on to anything else. 194 00:14:45,160 --> 00:14:47,040 Speaker 1: And it's something I tell my students, right, there were 195 00:14:47,120 --> 00:14:50,320 Speaker 1: Armenians before the genocide. There are Armenians after the genocide. 196 00:14:50,400 --> 00:14:53,480 Speaker 1: Armenian history doesn't start and end with the genocide. The 197 00:14:53,600 --> 00:14:57,400 Speaker 1: Armenian experience is not only about the genocide, but it 198 00:14:57,520 --> 00:15:02,320 Speaker 1: seems like this, I mean again, Historian Rasmi Pandosian would say, 199 00:15:02,320 --> 00:15:05,960 Speaker 1: it's the equalizer of all Armenians. You know that the 200 00:15:06,160 --> 00:15:11,040 Speaker 1: people spread across the globe, among different countries, different cultures, 201 00:15:11,080 --> 00:15:14,880 Speaker 1: different experiences, and yet the genocide and the quest for 202 00:15:14,920 --> 00:15:24,040 Speaker 1: its recognition unites all Armenians. The stories, the silence, the denial. 203 00:15:24,880 --> 00:15:28,800 Speaker 1: Shushan says that instead of destroying the Armenian people, this 204 00:15:28,960 --> 00:15:33,440 Speaker 1: shared trauma has resulted in a culture of compassion, resilience, 205 00:15:33,880 --> 00:15:41,400 Speaker 1: and artistic expression. In a sense, Raphi comes from a 206 00:15:41,440 --> 00:15:45,560 Speaker 1: long line of artists, writers and troubadours, all processing the 207 00:15:45,600 --> 00:15:52,360 Speaker 1: wounds of their ancestors. When you look at what Rabbi 208 00:15:52,440 --> 00:15:56,200 Speaker 1: has done with his life, what so many Armenians have 209 00:15:56,320 --> 00:16:00,520 Speaker 1: done with their lives in the diaspora, We've made art. 210 00:16:01,560 --> 00:16:04,720 Speaker 1: I mean, Rapha's music is like the happiest music on 211 00:16:05,320 --> 00:16:09,360 Speaker 1: the planet. I mean, you know Banana Phone and you 212 00:16:09,400 --> 00:16:12,800 Speaker 1: know Baby Blue Good. All of the joy that he 213 00:16:12,920 --> 00:16:17,120 Speaker 1: has brought to so many children and their parents. If 214 00:16:17,120 --> 00:16:21,960 Speaker 1: you were to meet Raffie, you wouldn't say, oh, my god, 215 00:16:22,600 --> 00:16:29,160 Speaker 1: grandson of survivors of a cataclysmic genocide who is scarred 216 00:16:29,240 --> 00:16:33,840 Speaker 1: for life. You'd say, this is one of the nicest, funniest, sweetest, 217 00:16:33,880 --> 00:16:37,360 Speaker 1: most talented people on the planet. Our Medians are just 218 00:16:37,680 --> 00:16:45,360 Speaker 1: utterly joyful, despite the trauma, despite the fact that forever 219 00:16:45,560 --> 00:16:54,200 Speaker 1: it feels like we have been the forgotten people. So yes, 220 00:16:54,280 --> 00:16:58,160 Speaker 1: it's important, as the Armenian painter Sarry Un said, to 221 00:16:58,320 --> 00:17:02,400 Speaker 1: no one's own homeland. But I like to take that further. 222 00:17:02,520 --> 00:17:05,320 Speaker 1: I said, it's important to know your heritage, of course, 223 00:17:06,320 --> 00:17:10,720 Speaker 1: but you can also transcend your heritage because you have 224 00:17:10,720 --> 00:17:13,520 Speaker 1: a duty to your soul as to what your life 225 00:17:13,560 --> 00:17:18,800 Speaker 1: is about. You know, to me, your people, they should 226 00:17:18,880 --> 00:17:22,440 Speaker 1: encourage your own growth, not to limit it in any way, 227 00:17:22,760 --> 00:17:27,320 Speaker 1: you know, So I can understand the impulse of Armenians 228 00:17:27,359 --> 00:17:29,399 Speaker 1: to claim me as one of their own, and of 229 00:17:29,440 --> 00:17:34,720 Speaker 1: course I am, but not in a way that you know, 230 00:17:34,880 --> 00:17:37,840 Speaker 1: constrains me, but hopefully in a way that celebrates my 231 00:17:37,920 --> 00:17:41,879 Speaker 1: own growth. I relate to that so much because there's um, 232 00:17:41,920 --> 00:17:44,720 Speaker 1: there's their culture, and it is partially responsible who you are, 233 00:17:44,800 --> 00:17:48,080 Speaker 1: but your your individual soul and your individual person that 234 00:17:48,240 --> 00:17:51,240 Speaker 1: has no cultural restraints. So in your heart and in 235 00:17:51,320 --> 00:17:53,800 Speaker 1: your mind and in your spirit, your your own person. 236 00:17:54,560 --> 00:17:58,480 Speaker 1: And so that really resonates with me, like like both 237 00:17:58,520 --> 00:18:02,840 Speaker 1: of our families forcibly fled their country. And sometimes I 238 00:18:02,880 --> 00:18:06,159 Speaker 1: feel too American to be Cuban, into Cuban to be American. 239 00:18:06,880 --> 00:18:11,240 Speaker 1: And sometimes you're laughing because I take it you understand. 240 00:18:12,600 --> 00:18:15,359 Speaker 1: I do understand. I do. Did you ever have moments 241 00:18:15,400 --> 00:18:19,040 Speaker 1: like that when you felt stuck between two worlds? For me, 242 00:18:19,160 --> 00:18:23,960 Speaker 1: it was all about identity. It was a quest for identity. 243 00:18:24,000 --> 00:18:35,200 Speaker 1: Who am I? RAPHI makes a really good point. Our 244 00:18:35,280 --> 00:18:40,000 Speaker 1: family stories ground us. They honor the past, but if 245 00:18:40,000 --> 00:18:43,320 Speaker 1: it's the only story we tell about ourselves, they can 246 00:18:43,359 --> 00:18:47,880 Speaker 1: be stifling. My family story is my story, but it's 247 00:18:47,880 --> 00:18:51,680 Speaker 1: not my whole story. How do I tell our story 248 00:18:51,720 --> 00:18:55,600 Speaker 1: to Sunny without putting her in a box. I want 249 00:18:55,640 --> 00:18:58,399 Speaker 1: her to know her history, but I also want her 250 00:18:58,440 --> 00:19:01,720 Speaker 1: to break free from any cultural constraints and add her 251 00:19:01,760 --> 00:19:05,720 Speaker 1: authentic self to our family story. Maybe the best way 252 00:19:05,720 --> 00:19:08,240 Speaker 1: to honor the past is to allow the story to 253 00:19:08,320 --> 00:19:16,280 Speaker 1: evolve with each generation. As Ralphie grew up, the political 254 00:19:16,359 --> 00:19:19,919 Speaker 1: climate in Egypt was turning more volatile. Raphi writes that 255 00:19:19,960 --> 00:19:23,000 Speaker 1: his father considered moving the family to Australia or Brazil. 256 00:19:23,880 --> 00:19:26,560 Speaker 1: Van Ardo went on a trip to North America. He 257 00:19:26,600 --> 00:19:29,359 Speaker 1: thought New York City was too big, Montreal had too 258 00:19:29,440 --> 00:19:34,320 Speaker 1: much snow, but Toronto was just right. My parents had 259 00:19:34,359 --> 00:19:36,280 Speaker 1: to leave Egypt to find a place where their kids 260 00:19:36,280 --> 00:19:40,679 Speaker 1: could grow and freedom, and that's what they did. I 261 00:19:40,760 --> 00:19:44,439 Speaker 1: was certainly appreciative, so thankful that my father had the 262 00:19:44,680 --> 00:19:47,199 Speaker 1: foresight to see the family needed to move. It was 263 00:19:47,280 --> 00:19:51,360 Speaker 1: not easy for us to leave our comfortable lives in Egypt, 264 00:19:51,480 --> 00:19:54,080 Speaker 1: but it was what needed to happen. So you grow 265 00:19:54,200 --> 00:19:59,040 Speaker 1: from that. You you appreciate, you know what's happened, and 266 00:19:59,119 --> 00:20:02,359 Speaker 1: you you're you're thrown in with the challenges and the 267 00:20:02,400 --> 00:20:05,720 Speaker 1: difficulties and the benefits of growing in a new land, 268 00:20:06,359 --> 00:20:12,720 Speaker 1: and you just do it so in nt with just 269 00:20:12,840 --> 00:20:16,639 Speaker 1: eight pieces of luggage and his grandmother's prayers, Raffi and 270 00:20:16,640 --> 00:20:20,560 Speaker 1: his family flew over Europe and crossed the Atlantic for Canada, 271 00:20:21,680 --> 00:20:25,600 Speaker 1: a world away where the Cabukians would once again start over. 272 00:20:41,400 --> 00:20:44,120 Speaker 1: Raphi's life is a ten year old Armenian Egyptian boy 273 00:20:44,240 --> 00:20:46,680 Speaker 1: in Canada couldn't have been more different than the one 274 00:20:46,760 --> 00:20:50,359 Speaker 1: he had in Cairo. I was born into a new culture, 275 00:20:50,400 --> 00:20:53,800 Speaker 1: if you will. In when we came to Toronto, everything 276 00:20:53,840 --> 00:20:57,600 Speaker 1: made an impression, from how cold it was and how 277 00:20:57,680 --> 00:21:01,040 Speaker 1: I see it could get to the fact that Mrs 278 00:21:01,080 --> 00:21:03,639 Speaker 1: McKinnon in fourth grade one time gave me her lunch 279 00:21:03,680 --> 00:21:07,239 Speaker 1: because I had forgotten my lunch. That really moved me 280 00:21:07,359 --> 00:21:12,119 Speaker 1: so much. And the fact that, you know, teachers in Toronto, 281 00:21:13,160 --> 00:21:15,720 Speaker 1: at the school that my brother and I and we're 282 00:21:15,760 --> 00:21:19,119 Speaker 1: going to and later my sister, they didn't hit you whoa. 283 00:21:19,520 --> 00:21:24,600 Speaker 1: That was interesting. And of course you know, hockey, ice skating, 284 00:21:24,800 --> 00:21:27,960 Speaker 1: new skills, new challenges. What will the kids think of me? 285 00:21:28,040 --> 00:21:30,920 Speaker 1: Oh my god, you know, and a lot of kids 286 00:21:31,000 --> 00:21:33,720 Speaker 1: were mean, you know, made fun of my name and 287 00:21:34,720 --> 00:21:39,200 Speaker 1: played tricks on me, So I had to navigate how 288 00:21:39,359 --> 00:21:42,960 Speaker 1: life was, which is really no different than what kids 289 00:21:43,080 --> 00:21:47,200 Speaker 1: have to do today, you know. But as you know, 290 00:21:48,040 --> 00:21:51,800 Speaker 1: challenges and hardships our test of character, and you learned 291 00:21:51,840 --> 00:21:56,560 Speaker 1: to overcome and you become stronger within, and that's just 292 00:21:56,960 --> 00:22:00,159 Speaker 1: how you get on with life. Raphie loved singing in 293 00:22:00,160 --> 00:22:03,119 Speaker 1: the Armenian choir, but he felt out of place at 294 00:22:03,160 --> 00:22:06,800 Speaker 1: the socials held at the Armenian Church. His parents also 295 00:22:06,840 --> 00:22:09,480 Speaker 1: didn't allow him to do what other Canadian kids were doing, 296 00:22:09,920 --> 00:22:12,800 Speaker 1: like joining after school sports or even riding a bike. 297 00:22:13,119 --> 00:22:15,400 Speaker 1: Since Arto and Lucy didn't let him have his own, 298 00:22:16,640 --> 00:22:18,560 Speaker 1: he spent a lot of time in his dad's new 299 00:22:18,600 --> 00:22:23,320 Speaker 1: portrait studio in Toronto. As Arto meticulously retouched photos, they 300 00:22:23,359 --> 00:22:28,359 Speaker 1: listened to music Andy Williams, Peggy Lee, Frank Sinatra. These 301 00:22:28,359 --> 00:22:34,480 Speaker 1: were moments in Raphae's new world intersected with his old one. 302 00:22:35,520 --> 00:22:40,919 Speaker 1: I was listening to the songs of Pete Seeger, Bob Dylan, 303 00:22:41,440 --> 00:22:46,200 Speaker 1: joined by as Joni Mitchell, Gordon Lightfoot, the whole folk 304 00:22:46,560 --> 00:22:51,359 Speaker 1: music singer songwriter you know seen and then Motown you know, 305 00:22:51,480 --> 00:22:55,280 Speaker 1: and all kinds of other music, diverse music on pop radio. 306 00:22:55,320 --> 00:22:57,720 Speaker 1: And I said, to myself, this is cool. I want 307 00:22:57,720 --> 00:23:02,160 Speaker 1: to get a guitar. So I went to a pawn 308 00:23:02,240 --> 00:23:04,680 Speaker 1: shop and put down my twenty four and about a 309 00:23:05,240 --> 00:23:08,840 Speaker 1: Kent nylon string guitar. That was my first one. I 310 00:23:08,960 --> 00:23:13,199 Speaker 1: learned to play guitar and sing and imagine, you know, 311 00:23:13,320 --> 00:23:15,480 Speaker 1: my thrill and and finding out that you could teach 312 00:23:15,480 --> 00:23:19,720 Speaker 1: yourself to do that. As a teenager, raph You would 313 00:23:19,720 --> 00:23:23,320 Speaker 1: spend his afternoons listening to records, playing guitar and singing 314 00:23:23,359 --> 00:23:26,879 Speaker 1: folk songs with his friends. He also started secretly dating 315 00:23:26,920 --> 00:23:29,959 Speaker 1: his first love, Deborah Pike, since Arto had a strict 316 00:23:30,040 --> 00:23:32,160 Speaker 1: no dating while you're still living in the house rule. 317 00:23:32,960 --> 00:23:36,080 Speaker 1: He was settling into hippie culture, letting his hair grow 318 00:23:36,080 --> 00:23:40,320 Speaker 1: along and embracing the flower power of the sixties. I 319 00:23:40,359 --> 00:23:43,840 Speaker 1: think there was a questioning of authority that was very healthy, 320 00:23:44,000 --> 00:23:47,000 Speaker 1: and people are starting to think for themselves. So, you know, 321 00:23:47,040 --> 00:23:50,679 Speaker 1: there was certainty the beginnings of the you know, the 322 00:23:50,760 --> 00:23:54,440 Speaker 1: uptake of interest in yoga and Eastern philosophies and so 323 00:23:54,440 --> 00:23:59,159 Speaker 1: so think about as an expansive experience for those of 324 00:23:59,240 --> 00:24:03,800 Speaker 1: us want to be hippies. You know, it was, you know, 325 00:24:03,840 --> 00:24:06,880 Speaker 1: we were starting to think for ourselves as Raphae attended 326 00:24:06,880 --> 00:24:09,960 Speaker 1: the University of Toronto. He also started playing gigs around 327 00:24:10,000 --> 00:24:13,560 Speaker 1: the city. He'd watch other performers too, learning from them 328 00:24:13,560 --> 00:24:16,840 Speaker 1: and practicing the new techniques he saw on stage. He 329 00:24:16,920 --> 00:24:19,440 Speaker 1: wanted to see where this music thing would take him, 330 00:24:19,520 --> 00:24:22,240 Speaker 1: so in nineteen sixty nine, he moved out of Lucy 331 00:24:22,280 --> 00:24:25,760 Speaker 1: Innardo's house, dropped out of university after two years, and 332 00:24:25,840 --> 00:24:28,560 Speaker 1: threw himself into his new career. You know, at first, 333 00:24:28,640 --> 00:24:31,440 Speaker 1: I was a folk singer, singer songwriter, That's how I started. 334 00:24:31,480 --> 00:24:34,639 Speaker 1: And I wanted a career kind of like James Taylor. 335 00:24:34,680 --> 00:24:37,359 Speaker 1: You know, I wanted to play medium sized halls, not 336 00:24:37,480 --> 00:24:41,720 Speaker 1: Madison Square gardens. You know, the folks scene in Toronto 337 00:24:41,840 --> 00:24:45,479 Speaker 1: was vibrant and tight knit. Ralphie's friend and fellow folky 338 00:24:45,600 --> 00:24:49,080 Speaker 1: John Lacy, remembers those days. Well, you'd usually go to 339 00:24:49,119 --> 00:24:51,280 Speaker 1: a place and you do a guest set on a 340 00:24:51,359 --> 00:24:53,880 Speaker 1: jam night or hoot Nanny Knight who was called back then, 341 00:24:54,280 --> 00:24:56,520 Speaker 1: and you do your thing and if they like you enough, 342 00:24:56,560 --> 00:24:59,840 Speaker 1: they'd hire you and you come back whenever the date was. 343 00:25:00,640 --> 00:25:03,480 Speaker 1: He and Raffi would often back each other up at gigs. 344 00:25:03,960 --> 00:25:06,000 Speaker 1: He was doing the same stuff. Was we all work 345 00:25:06,080 --> 00:25:08,080 Speaker 1: on and then he wrote a few songs too, but 346 00:25:08,680 --> 00:25:11,960 Speaker 1: predominantly he was he was doing covers. Who would you 347 00:25:11,960 --> 00:25:17,639 Speaker 1: guys cover? John Prine, the Birds, uh Pete Seeger and 348 00:25:17,720 --> 00:25:21,159 Speaker 1: joined byas and don't he met schell O'Neil young that 349 00:25:21,240 --> 00:25:23,720 Speaker 1: type of thing. Just whatever tune in the grabbed you, 350 00:25:23,720 --> 00:25:33,320 Speaker 1: you know. John and Raffie moved into a big house 351 00:25:33,359 --> 00:25:35,639 Speaker 1: with a bunch of other young hippies in an area 352 00:25:35,680 --> 00:25:39,320 Speaker 1: of Toronto called Cabbage Town. John says he taught Raffie 353 00:25:39,359 --> 00:25:42,399 Speaker 1: a guitar technique called flat picking. He even got to 354 00:25:42,440 --> 00:25:45,800 Speaker 1: know Rafy's Armenian heritage through the meals at the Kabukian home, 355 00:25:46,160 --> 00:25:49,960 Speaker 1: where he remembers eating tabuli for the first time. John 356 00:25:50,080 --> 00:25:53,119 Speaker 1: also saw how Ralphie's parents had a different vision for 357 00:25:53,160 --> 00:25:56,320 Speaker 1: their son's life. I think that he felt a certain 358 00:25:56,359 --> 00:26:01,080 Speaker 1: tension because here he was, his folky musician going on 359 00:26:01,160 --> 00:26:03,560 Speaker 1: the world, and all of us who decided to do 360 00:26:03,680 --> 00:26:06,919 Speaker 1: music for a living, that was the thing, was the living. 361 00:26:07,359 --> 00:26:09,639 Speaker 1: There was a certain stress with the parents over that, 362 00:26:09,920 --> 00:26:12,119 Speaker 1: certainly with my parents, so they didn't want me to 363 00:26:12,160 --> 00:26:14,840 Speaker 1: do it. His folks weren't a hundred percent behind on 364 00:26:15,440 --> 00:26:18,960 Speaker 1: doing it. They are typical immigrant parents. They wanted the 365 00:26:19,000 --> 00:26:21,800 Speaker 1: kids to go to university and get a classic degree 366 00:26:21,880 --> 00:26:25,479 Speaker 1: and education and go into a bona fide of business. 367 00:26:26,560 --> 00:26:28,359 Speaker 1: I think his parents might have wanted him to the 368 00:26:28,400 --> 00:26:32,880 Speaker 1: photography think too. As Ralfie was finding his way as 369 00:26:32,880 --> 00:26:36,800 Speaker 1: a folk musician, the pressure and pull from his parents continued. 370 00:26:37,640 --> 00:26:39,720 Speaker 1: They didn't seem to understand that he had his own 371 00:26:39,760 --> 00:26:43,640 Speaker 1: goals and dreams for his life. Ralphie remembers the time 372 00:26:43,680 --> 00:26:46,200 Speaker 1: in his early twenties when he sat for a portrait 373 00:26:46,520 --> 00:26:50,240 Speaker 1: at Arto Studio. My father had taken a beautiful color 374 00:26:50,400 --> 00:26:53,320 Speaker 1: portrait of me head and shoulders, and he had this 375 00:26:53,720 --> 00:26:57,040 Speaker 1: abstract painting. I don't know who who did the painting, 376 00:26:57,119 --> 00:27:00,800 Speaker 1: but he kind of took the two image. Isn't made that, 377 00:27:01,080 --> 00:27:05,280 Speaker 1: you know, a double exposure color print, and so there 378 00:27:05,320 --> 00:27:09,040 Speaker 1: there's my head and shoulders, but you know, abstract colors 379 00:27:09,080 --> 00:27:11,400 Speaker 1: all over the place and forms and so on. Are 380 00:27:11,480 --> 00:27:15,199 Speaker 1: They called it the indecision of youth, And I wouldn't 381 00:27:15,240 --> 00:27:18,119 Speaker 1: say he called it that in a flattering way. So 382 00:27:18,160 --> 00:27:20,960 Speaker 1: I was a little upset about it, but I also 383 00:27:21,040 --> 00:27:24,159 Speaker 1: understood that that's how he saw me at the time. 384 00:27:24,800 --> 00:27:27,560 Speaker 1: But I was exploring. I was excited. I was alive. 385 00:27:28,240 --> 00:27:32,280 Speaker 1: I was, I was awake, you know. So do you 386 00:27:32,320 --> 00:27:35,600 Speaker 1: think this portrait was your dad's reaction to just not 387 00:27:35,760 --> 00:27:39,119 Speaker 1: understanding you? Whoa he was struggling with the man I 388 00:27:39,200 --> 00:27:43,040 Speaker 1: was becoming. Yeah, because it didn't go along the script 389 00:27:43,080 --> 00:27:47,360 Speaker 1: that he would have wanted. I wasn't gonna just say, oh, yeah, 390 00:27:47,600 --> 00:27:50,040 Speaker 1: I'll work in your studio, dad, you know from now. No, No, 391 00:27:50,200 --> 00:27:52,800 Speaker 1: I was on my own path, and that was hard 392 00:27:52,840 --> 00:27:56,560 Speaker 1: for him because he had gone into his father's work 393 00:27:57,320 --> 00:28:02,200 Speaker 1: after his father's death, even as he my father had 394 00:28:02,920 --> 00:28:05,600 Speaker 1: taken his father's work and run with it, as in, 395 00:28:05,800 --> 00:28:10,320 Speaker 1: you know, pioneered in color portraiture, something his father never did. 396 00:28:11,480 --> 00:28:14,960 Speaker 1: So we all have a duty to ourselves to to 397 00:28:15,119 --> 00:28:19,760 Speaker 1: grow our hearts yearnings, to to put those yearnings into 398 00:28:20,240 --> 00:28:22,680 Speaker 1: the expressions of who we are and how we might 399 00:28:22,760 --> 00:28:27,600 Speaker 1: serve in society. Was it hard for you to go 400 00:28:27,640 --> 00:28:32,399 Speaker 1: against your parents expectations like that? Not at all. No. 401 00:28:32,560 --> 00:28:36,919 Speaker 1: I I knew that I needed to, you know, travel 402 00:28:37,000 --> 00:28:45,040 Speaker 1: my own path. Decades later, Raphi wrote that perhaps his 403 00:28:45,160 --> 00:28:49,960 Speaker 1: parents were culturally and personally incapable of seeing him as 404 00:28:50,000 --> 00:28:54,040 Speaker 1: his own person rather than as an extension of themselves. 405 00:28:54,840 --> 00:28:57,960 Speaker 1: But He says Ardo's portrait does remind him of how 406 00:28:58,120 --> 00:29:01,360 Speaker 1: tough his path towards discover or in his authentic self 407 00:29:01,560 --> 00:29:06,600 Speaker 1: actually was. Finding an identity free of the one his 408 00:29:06,680 --> 00:29:18,280 Speaker 1: parents had dreamt up for him would take years. For 409 00:29:18,320 --> 00:29:21,800 Speaker 1: the first half of the nineteen seventies, Rapie hitchhiked through 410 00:29:21,840 --> 00:29:25,120 Speaker 1: Canada and the United States. He performed at a folk 411 00:29:25,200 --> 00:29:28,680 Speaker 1: festival in Regina, busked in bamf and played for six 412 00:29:28,720 --> 00:29:32,080 Speaker 1: weeks in the lounge of a resort in Arkansas. He 413 00:29:32,160 --> 00:29:34,480 Speaker 1: says it felt like he was enrolled in life one 414 00:29:34,520 --> 00:29:37,480 Speaker 1: oh one, learning how to live as a struggling folk 415 00:29:37,560 --> 00:29:51,080 Speaker 1: singer and finding his own musical style. Then in nineteen seventy, 416 00:29:51,800 --> 00:29:55,640 Speaker 1: Rafi took another chance. He'd seen how better paying gigs 417 00:29:55,720 --> 00:29:58,720 Speaker 1: went to artists who had a recording contract, so he 418 00:29:58,800 --> 00:30:02,680 Speaker 1: formed Troubadour Wreck, his own record company, and he signed 419 00:30:02,720 --> 00:30:06,400 Speaker 1: his first artist himself. And because he'd be a one 420 00:30:06,400 --> 00:30:09,920 Speaker 1: man record label, this would give him full control of 421 00:30:10,000 --> 00:30:17,600 Speaker 1: his artistic vision books most all of my mind, never 422 00:30:17,800 --> 00:30:23,120 Speaker 1: no much trouble. I guess I'm nowhere to hide. Through Troubadour, 423 00:30:23,240 --> 00:30:26,640 Speaker 1: he released his first album, Good Luck Boy, a folk 424 00:30:26,720 --> 00:30:30,960 Speaker 1: album for adults it's the album that featured Impressions of Armenia. 425 00:30:31,520 --> 00:30:34,080 Speaker 1: There's a line in the title track that really sticks 426 00:30:34,080 --> 00:30:39,120 Speaker 1: out to me. I'm huven money hunt. I hope I 427 00:30:39,240 --> 00:30:43,680 Speaker 1: started trend. Feel like everything I've ever wanted was spitting 428 00:30:43,720 --> 00:30:47,560 Speaker 1: around the bind. I feel like everything I ever wanted 429 00:30:48,200 --> 00:30:52,080 Speaker 1: was waiting around the bend. And I mean he wasn't 430 00:30:52,080 --> 00:31:24,720 Speaker 1: wrong next time. On Finding Raffie, the language in most 431 00:31:24,960 --> 00:31:29,520 Speaker 1: children's albums at the time, it didn't reflect anything, and 432 00:31:29,760 --> 00:31:32,080 Speaker 1: just it just talked down to children as if they 433 00:31:32,080 --> 00:31:35,760 Speaker 1: were all babies and idiots. We weren't going by any 434 00:31:36,160 --> 00:31:38,400 Speaker 1: market research or anythink We were kind of winging it, 435 00:31:38,600 --> 00:31:41,920 Speaker 1: you know, having fun, including songs that we thought kids 436 00:31:41,920 --> 00:31:53,760 Speaker 1: would enjoy singing, and that's what we did. Finding Raffi 437 00:31:53,920 --> 00:31:56,600 Speaker 1: is a production in My Heart Radio and Fatherly in 438 00:31:56,640 --> 00:32:00,880 Speaker 1: partnership with Rococo Punch. It's produced by Athor and Fendalosa, 439 00:32:01,240 --> 00:32:05,560 Speaker 1: Meredith Hannig, and James Trout. Production assistance from Charlotte Livingston. 440 00:32:05,960 --> 00:32:09,440 Speaker 1: Alex French is our story consultant. Our senior producer is 441 00:32:09,480 --> 00:32:14,000 Speaker 1: Andrea Swahe. Emily Foreman is our editor. Fact checking by 442 00:32:14,040 --> 00:32:19,000 Speaker 1: Andrea Lopez Crusado Raphae's music is courtesy of Troubadour Records. 443 00:32:19,680 --> 00:32:23,920 Speaker 1: Special thanks to Kim Layton at Troubadour. Our Executive producers 444 00:32:23,920 --> 00:32:28,120 Speaker 1: are Jessica Albert and John Parotti at Rococo, punch Ty Trimble, 445 00:32:28,200 --> 00:32:31,680 Speaker 1: Mike Rothman and Jeff Eisenman at Fatherly and Me. Chris 446 00:32:31,720 --> 00:32:33,560 Speaker 1: Garcia thank you for listening.