Speaker 1: On December twenty ninth, nineteen ninety one, the body of
Speaker 1: a thirty six year old bartender was found nude in
Speaker 1: the men's restroom of her bar in Phoenix, Arizona. She
Speaker 1: had been assaulted and fatally stabbed. No seamen was found, however,
Speaker 1: what appeared to be bite marks were on her neck.
Speaker 2: And breast, along with saliva.
Speaker 1: With DNA testing still in its infancy, sorology tests could
Speaker 1: only show that both the blood and saliva at the scene.
Speaker 2: Matched the victim's blood type.
Speaker 1: One witness implied that the victim may have been dating
Speaker 1: a thirty four year old bar regular named Ray Crone,
Speaker 1: who the victim allegedly had mentioned was supposed to help
Speaker 1: her close up that night, but since Ray had been
Speaker 1: at home with his roommate at the time of the crime,
Speaker 1: he had nothing to hide, fully cooperating with investigators and
Speaker 1: eventually giving a blood sample and an impression of his teeth.
Speaker 1: With the limitations of the sorology in this case, the
Speaker 1: notorious junk science of bitemark analysis became the sole evidence
Speaker 1: against Ray. To judge's denial of a continuance for the
Speaker 1: defense to prayer to refute. This evidence made a path
Speaker 1: for a second trial, but not before Ray was.
Speaker 2: Convicted and sentenced to death.
Speaker 1: At the second trial, with the sal DNA evidence excluding Ray,
Speaker 1: he was still reconvicted, but this time the judge sentenced
Speaker 1: Rate a life while voicing his obvious doubts. In two
Speaker 1: thousand and two, further DNA testing both excluded Ray as
Speaker 1: well as identified a convicted child molester named Kenneth.
Speaker 2: Phillips as the actual killer.
Speaker 1: Within days, Ray Crohn became the one hundredth former death
Speaker 1: row inmate freed based on actual innocence since capital punishment
Speaker 1: was reinstated in nineteen seventy six.
Speaker 2: This is wrongful conviction.
Speaker 1: Welcome back to wrongful conviction. Today's episode will rock your world.
Speaker 1: And I say that with such a high degree of
Speaker 1: confidence because this story, this man Ray cron was the
Speaker 1: one hundredth exonery from death row in the United States
Speaker 1: and his case is so troubling because, on top of
Speaker 1: all the other terrible things, Ray's case relied solely on
Speaker 1: the junkiest of junk sciences, which is bite mark evidence
Speaker 1: that was it nothing else. And furthermore, as happens too
Speaker 1: often in too many of the cases that we cover,
Speaker 1: the actual perpetrator went on to commit an unspeakable crime
Speaker 1: after Ray was targeted for reasons that we'll get into later,
Speaker 1: which are inexplicable, but they're real. So without further Ado,
Speaker 1: Ray Crone, welcome to wrongful conviction.
Speaker 3: Well, thank you, I'm glad to be here.
Speaker 1: And Ray, your case happened in Maricopa County, Arizona, which
Speaker 1: has a notorious past of prosecutorial misconduct. In fact, when
Speaker 1: referring to some more recent instances, an ACLU article said,
Speaker 1: and this is a quote. It is indicative of a
Speaker 1: decade long culture of misconduct that flows from the top down,
Speaker 1: one that prioritizes winning convictions over pursuing fairness and executing justice.
Speaker 2: End quote.
Speaker 1: And to be fair to a Maricopa that quote could
Speaker 1: be applied to countless prosecutors' offices all over the country.
Speaker 1: But in your case, the prosecutor was Noel Levy, who
Speaker 1: sent at least two innocent people to death row that
Speaker 1: we know of, right. The first was Deborah Milky back
Speaker 1: in nineteen ninety when Levy hid the lead detective's long
Speaker 1: history of lying under oath, and that was exposed in
Speaker 1: twenty fifteen, which allowed Debrah Milky to finally clear her
Speaker 1: name and then of course you But before all of
Speaker 1: this insanity, can you take us back a bit, what
Speaker 1: was your life like growing up?
Speaker 3: Well? I was actually I was born and raised in
Speaker 3: a small agricultural town in southern Pennsylvania. I went to
Speaker 3: the same high school my grandparents went to the same
Speaker 3: church my great grandparents went to. I was involved in church.
Speaker 3: I was on the choir. I also played Little league baseball,
Speaker 3: pee wee football was in sports. And I grew up
Speaker 3: growing vegetables and hunting and fishing in the typical things
Speaker 3: that small town country boys do. And I graduated in
Speaker 3: nineteen seventy four and I entered the US Air Force.
Speaker 3: I signed up for six years active duty. Was stationed
Speaker 3: places like Texas, Mississippi, then Georgia, Maine, and then the
Speaker 3: last was Phoenix, Arizona. My six years were up, I
Speaker 3: got out out there. A few years later. I got
Speaker 3: a job at the post office, and life was really
Speaker 3: pretty good again. I played a lot of sports, and
Speaker 3: that's really where my problem arose. Because of the one
Speaker 3: bar that I played volleyball for that I had sought
Speaker 3: darts at a few times became a scene of a
Speaker 3: murder right.
Speaker 1: And this particular crime occurred on December twenty ninth, nineteen
Speaker 1: ninety one, where the body of a thirty six year
Speaker 1: old woman was found nude in the men's restroom of
Speaker 1: the CBS Lounge in Phoenix, Arizona. The bar owner had
Speaker 1: found the body of the previous night's bartender and she
Speaker 1: had been brutally assaulted and.
Speaker 2: Stabbed to death.
Speaker 1: Now this remember this was back in the early nineties, right,
Speaker 1: so DNA testing was still in its infancy. Right, it
Speaker 1: was a new thing, So they only had zerology to
Speaker 1: work with, and at the time, it seemed like there
Speaker 1: was very little physical evidence left behind. There was no semen, right,
Speaker 1: and the blood and saliva at the scene all matched
Speaker 1: the victim's blood type. There were, though, what appeared to
Speaker 1: be human bite marks on the victim's neck and breast.
Speaker 1: So hm, which is we've talked about that before. How
Speaker 1: notoriously reliable that is? But so ray from these facts?
Speaker 1: How did they even come to suspect and ultimately target you.
Speaker 3: Yeah, she was. She was found by the owner and
Speaker 3: he came in on that Sunday morningtone put up his bar,
Speaker 3: found the front door unlocked, was concerned why his night
Speaker 3: manager hadn't taken care of secured. Eddie went made his
Speaker 3: way to the cash reader to a safe both row
Speaker 3: on secure the money was still in there. As he
Speaker 3: made his way around the bar, he found her body
Speaker 3: in the men's bathroom, and of course the police were
Speaker 3: called in and they initiated investigation on the assumption had
Speaker 3: to be somebody that knew her. No evidence of break in,
Speaker 3: no sign of a robbery. They talked to some of
Speaker 3: the co workers. One of them mentioned my name as
Speaker 3: a potential boyfriend. I did not date. She was not
Speaker 3: my girlfriend. I knew her from the bar. You treat
Speaker 3: bartenders and waitresses are kindly in any profession if you're
Speaker 3: going to be attending that place of business, and that's
Speaker 3: all it was. But it was about one o'clock on
Speaker 3: that Sunday end. I heard my dog was outside and
Speaker 3: he started barking. Two men in suits had pulled in
Speaker 3: front of my neighbor's house and were getting out of
Speaker 3: their car. And by the time I went outside to
Speaker 3: let my dog and they were walking up my driveway
Speaker 3: and I stepped out and I said, excuse me, can
Speaker 3: I help you? The one man said, or you Ray Crone?
Speaker 3: I said, well, yes, Sam, What can I do for you?
Speaker 3: And he said you know, and I thought of SATs.
Speaker 3: I said, I don't think I knew anybody named, and
Speaker 3: he exchanged glances with the man next him, looked like
Speaker 3: he said, you don't know from the CBS lounge. I said, well,
Speaker 3: wait a minute. I played volleyball there. I shoot darts
Speaker 3: there sometimes. There was a girl there named I said,
Speaker 3: I don't know her last name. And he kind of
Speaker 3: looked at me side. He said, you don't know her
Speaker 3: last name. You're a boyfriend, aren't you. I kind of said,
Speaker 3: tell I'm not her boyfriend. What's going on here? He said, well,
Speaker 3: you're dating, or aren't you? I said, no, I'm not datinger,
Speaker 3: what is this about? And at that point, he opened
Speaker 3: up his jacket, pulled out his badge, identified himself as
Speaker 3: a homicide detective, and informed me of her death. Said
Speaker 3: he was there to ask me a few questions. Now
Speaker 3: I'm stunned. I've been going to that bar about two months.
Speaker 3: Here's somebody I knew was a victim of a homicide
Speaker 3: and the police are at my house to ask me questions.
Speaker 3: The first thing I said, well, sure, come on inside,
Speaker 3: and he said no, we really need to do this downtown,
Speaker 3: And so I was interrogated for the next three hours
Speaker 3: about how long we've been dating, where I take her
Speaker 3: on dates, every time she'd been to my house. All
Speaker 3: of them, I told him were negative. You know, she's
Speaker 3: never been to my house. I didn't date her. I
Speaker 3: would see her at the bar. I was at a
Speaker 3: Christmas party with a number of people from the bar
Speaker 3: at one point with her, and that was it. At
Speaker 3: one point they took my sneakers out. Another point they
Speaker 3: took mugshots. They had me take my shirt off, took
Speaker 3: pictures of my upper torso they took fingerprints. Another party,
Speaker 3: he had like a white stir foam cups, had it
Speaker 3: tied two pieces together. Where I actually been into that
Speaker 3: and I cooperated. I didn't know anything about her death.
Speaker 3: I didn't know her that well. I was at home
Speaker 3: that night. I have a roommate that knows I was
Speaker 3: home that night, and after about three hours it was over,
Speaker 3: and I thought that was the end up. But then
Speaker 3: the next day, which was a Monday, I went to
Speaker 3: the post office, delivered my mail, got home that day
Speaker 3: and there he was waiting. Detective Gregory said, I need
Speaker 3: to eliminate you as a suspect. I don't think you've
Speaker 3: been completely truthful. You want to cooperate, don't you, mister
Speaker 3: cron And well, I said, sure, what does it you
Speaker 3: need me to do? And he said, well, I need
Speaker 3: you to come downtown again again. I volunteered to go
Speaker 3: downtown this time. When I got down there, in a
Speaker 3: little interrogation room, right away, he pulled out a piece
Speaker 3: of paper said, oh, yeah, by the way, I have
Speaker 3: an affidavid here, or a request for for evidence, and
Speaker 3: that it said that they were going to take a
Speaker 3: blood sample or hair sample to cast in my teeth.
Speaker 3: Now I'm a little upset. Now I'm concerns, like what's
Speaker 3: going on here? It was signed by a judge, said
Speaker 3: I was required to give these samples, and it said
Speaker 3: they had three hours to do it. So I cooperated
Speaker 3: when he took blood out of both arms. I'm not
Speaker 3: sure why that was necessary. I cooperated when they took
Speaker 3: hair samples, and then I was taken next door in
Speaker 3: a bigger room where there was a dentist and a
Speaker 3: dentist chair set up, at which point they sat me
Speaker 3: in a chair, put this gup, and he took two
Speaker 3: casts in my upper teeth to cast my lower teeth,
Speaker 3: and for about the next two and a half hours
Speaker 3: there was nothing but taking pictures in question me about
Speaker 3: my identicians history. When I was eighteen years old, I
Speaker 3: was a passengor in a head on collision. I woke
Speaker 3: up with a broken jaw mouth wearing shut. Six weeks
Speaker 3: went by. The bottom jawl didn't line up with the top.
Speaker 3: They had to rebreak and wear it shut again for
Speaker 3: another six weeks. I had some teeth that it eventually
Speaker 3: had died. I had some teeth issues, root canals, they
Speaker 3: some bridge work, some different things that went on with
Speaker 3: the front teeth in my mouth. And finally, when that
Speaker 3: was over, I went next door to that little interrogation
Speaker 3: room at wench Point. The detective banged his desk with
Speaker 3: his big old book and said, look, it's time to
Speaker 3: come clean. It's time to tell the truth. I know
Speaker 3: you didn't want you just confess that we can all
Speaker 3: go home. Well, by now I was pretty angry. I
Speaker 3: was pretty upset with what was going on where I
Speaker 3: was being treated. I was almost thirty five years old.
Speaker 3: I'm not a little child. I spoke up to him,
Speaker 3: I told you what I thought of him when I
Speaker 3: thought the investigation of the police department, Why you waste
Speaker 3: my time go find a person that did this. And
Speaker 3: by the way, your three hours were up. I mean
Speaker 3: I was hot. And he looked at me, looked at
Speaker 3: his watch, he looked back up. He said, look, mister crone,
Speaker 3: I'm not going to argue with you. There's other ways
Speaker 3: to handle this. He took me home fifteen minute ride,
Speaker 3: never said a word to me again. I thought that
Speaker 3: was the end of it, but I found out what
Speaker 3: he meant by other ways to handle this. The next day,
Speaker 3: December thirty first, nineteen ninety one. It was just about
Speaker 3: four o'clock. I pulled into my driveway, just stepped out
Speaker 3: of my car, which point all Suddenly I heard a
Speaker 3: speaker go off. Freeze, don't move, you're underrest. A vanload
Speaker 3: the police officers came pulling up. Black and whites came
Speaker 3: pulling up. The van doors opened up with armed officers
Speaker 3: in full riot gear. Threw me on the ground and
Speaker 3: rescue for murder, kidnapping, and sexual assault.
Speaker 2: Jesus Christ.
Speaker 1: So there you are spending New Year's Eve in a
Speaker 1: jail cell, and from what I understand, you stayed right
Speaker 1: there until trial. But you had your roommate right who
Speaker 1: had been home with you that night, so it should
Speaker 1: have seemed like you could clear this up pretty easily.
Speaker 1: And from what I understand, you had a public defender.
Speaker 1: Did they share the same optimism?
Speaker 3: One day I got called out to a legal visit.
Speaker 3: I've probably been in there for a good month or two,
Speaker 3: and it's just like you see on TV with a
Speaker 3: separated the area where one picks a phone and you
Speaker 3: talked through clear glass. And I was in there in
Speaker 3: a lady came in, sat a briefcase down, picked up
Speaker 3: the phone and identified herself as representing the public Defender's office.
Speaker 3: She said, you've been charged with murder, kidnapping, and sexual assault.
Speaker 3: You can expect to be found guilty, but we'll fight
Speaker 3: it on appeal. And I went crazy, What do you
Speaker 3: mean if he found Giddy had not to do his
Speaker 3: own bit? I just started going off, ranting and raving,
Speaker 3: and she got the phone held away from her ear,
Speaker 3: waiting for me to calm down. And she got back
Speaker 3: in that phone and she said, listen, mister crone, let
Speaker 3: me tell you something. I don't take that to an
Speaker 3: A voice from the judge I don't take it from
Speaker 3: the prosecutor, and I'm certainly not going to take it
Speaker 3: from you. Hung up the phone, picked up a briefcase,
Speaker 3: and was gone. And I thought, this is incredible. What
Speaker 3: is this system? I believed in? What the country? I
Speaker 3: believe that things I stood for and was taught and
Speaker 3: you know, raised to believe. Anyway, I got a letter
Speaker 3: about a week or two later from the Public Defender's
Speaker 3: office that stated that they were being removed from my case.
Speaker 3: They cited a conflict of interest, said the next most
Speaker 3: likely suspect was the victim's ex husband. They had a
Speaker 3: fifteen year old daughter together, and he did a sleepover
Speaker 3: for her birthday and did something inappropriate with one of
Speaker 3: her little girlfriends and he was arrested rightfully so, and
Speaker 3: they were representing him, and I was told that I
Speaker 3: would be getting a court appointed attorney. I thought, oh good,
Speaker 3: I'm going to get a private attorney. Now. Somebody's going
Speaker 3: to be appointed to represent somebody that'll do the job.
Speaker 3: But unfortunately, the day I went before the judge to
Speaker 3: get a court appointed attorney, it was a man who'd
Speaker 3: never done a death penalty case. And at the point
Speaker 3: where the judge appoint him to me. He was granted
Speaker 3: five thousand dollars to defend me, to represent me in
Speaker 3: a capitol murder case.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and of course the state has unlimited resources to
Speaker 1: do what they want to do.
Speaker 3: Heck, you can't even get a divorce for five thousand dollars.
Speaker 1: Yeah, don't, don't, I know it, believe me. But and
Speaker 1: they're giving really just enough to create the impression that
Speaker 1: they're enabling you to mount some sort of a defense,
Speaker 1: but not enough realistically for anybody to mount a real defense.
Speaker 1: So seven months after the murder, you're on trial.
Speaker 3: This was a three and a half day trial. The
Speaker 3: prosecution was pretty much all three days. And that's why
Speaker 3: I found out why they had me bite into that
Speaker 3: stereo fim that first day, why they took those casts
Speaker 3: of my teeth the second day, because they had a
Speaker 3: bite mark expert testifier. Ray Rosen out of Nevada, very impressive,
Speaker 3: well spoken man. He was a dean of the UNLV
Speaker 3: Dental School. He was a state center out of Las Vegas.
Speaker 3: He was the elder and the Mormon Church. Very powerful speaker,
Speaker 3: very convincing. We had later found out, very well paid,
Speaker 3: over fifty thousand dollars by the Maricopa County DA's office
Speaker 3: for his testimony. But his testimony was that my teeth
Speaker 3: were unique as the result of the car accident. I
Speaker 3: was in my teeth matched the marks and the body,
Speaker 3: and the detos marks in the body were made at
Speaker 3: the time of death, and that definitively made me Ray
Speaker 3: Crone the murder. There really wasn't much other evidence, but
Speaker 3: I was called a snagger tooth killer in the papers.
Speaker 1: The snaggle tooth killer. So for ten times what you
Speaker 1: got for your whole defense, that fifty grand even came
Speaker 1: with a schoolyard bully nickname, right, And what they're really
Speaker 1: paying for with a forensic odontologist is there resume, pomp
Speaker 1: and circumstance, Because if you were looking for substance and
Speaker 1: bitemark analysis, well there just isn't any. There's not a shred.
Speaker 1: I can't even I can't even put into words the
Speaker 1: disdain I have for this particular junk science. I encourage
Speaker 1: everyone to listen to our series Wraleful Conviction Junk Science.
Speaker 1: The first episode exposes bitemark analysis for what it really is.
Speaker 1: And let's start out by saying that one of the
Speaker 1: original purposes of forensic odentology is identifying human remains with
Speaker 1: dental records. What I mean is, for instance, like a
Speaker 1: person was on a flight, right, and the flight crashed
Speaker 1: into a mountainside or whatever, it gets obliterated.
Speaker 2: But now you've got a situation where you're.
Speaker 1: Matching a limited and known set of bodies to corresponding
Speaker 1: dental impressions and dental histories. So you have a full
Speaker 1: set of teeth that you're comparing to a full set
Speaker 1: of X rays from a dentist's office. But with bitemark analysis,
Speaker 1: the so called expert pretends without taking into account that
Speaker 1: the many, many variables of the medium on which a
Speaker 1: bite was recorded. Right, So what I mean is, in
Speaker 1: this particular case, human skin and tissue, so we're talking
Speaker 1: about elasticity, decomposition. I could go on, but from there
Speaker 1: they act as if they're able to match perfectly a
Speaker 1: dental mold from a suspect to marks made on a
Speaker 1: surface that's transitioning, and they claim to be able to
Speaker 1: do this to the exclusion of all others on the planet,
Speaker 1: as Ray Rosen did in this case. So yeah, no,
Speaker 1: but as Ray mentioned, they impressed the hell out of
Speaker 1: the jury with their witnesses purported credentials, and this time
Speaker 1: tested method has tragically been very effective at producing convictions,
Speaker 1: often with no other evidence of any kind. So that
Speaker 1: was the state's case. But what about your defense?
Speaker 3: Now, the second half the trial, which was a defensive turn,
Speaker 3: which was like the last half a day, I actually
Speaker 3: took the stand. I raised my right hand. I went
Speaker 3: up there and answer my attorney's questions. And there came
Speaker 3: the prosecutor, Noel leav He got up here right in
Speaker 3: front of me right away. So you denied killing the victim?
Speaker 3: I said, yes, I do you deny being the CBS? Now,
Speaker 3: I said what night? He said, the night you killed her?
Speaker 3: Of course, mister Crone, the night you brutally took her.
Speaker 3: I just started tearing into me. I mean everything I
Speaker 3: said was twisted around. And after two or three hours
Speaker 3: of this cross examination, I come down off that wind
Speaker 3: of sand. I mean, so disorder and confused almost what
Speaker 3: over sat down next to me. Next was my roommate.
Speaker 3: My roommate was going through divorce. He had two children.
Speaker 3: Most of his money was going to support those children.
Speaker 3: He was staying with me for a month or two.
Speaker 3: He'd been there already he raised his right hand to testify,
Speaker 3: to tell the truth there in that court of law,
Speaker 3: and sat down and answered my attorney's question. And then
Speaker 3: here come nol leave again to cross examine him. Stirred
Speaker 3: there in front of him a minute with his arms
Speaker 3: cross said, now you know Ray Crone a long time,
Speaker 3: haven't you. My friend Steve said yes, that's right. He's
Speaker 3: been twelve years since we were in the Air Force together.
Speaker 3: And then the prosecutor said, and Ray Crone has always
Speaker 3: been a good friend to you. I've been there at times, indeed,
Speaker 3: times of trouble, looked out for you, helped you out.
Speaker 3: In fact, he's even given you a place to live
Speaker 3: right now, isn't he my friends to He kind of
Speaker 3: straighten up said yes, that's right. That's the kind of
Speaker 3: guy where he is. And then the prosecutor leaned right
Speaker 3: over a space point to figure and said, and you'd
Speaker 3: lie for him, wound you and turned and walked away
Speaker 3: and sat down. Later on at closing arguments, he told
Speaker 3: the jury disregard my friend a man who raised his
Speaker 3: right hand to serve the United States Air Force, a
Speaker 3: man who raised his right hand to tell his truth
Speaker 3: in the court of law. He told that jury to
Speaker 3: disregard his testimony because he's just there to protect me
Speaker 3: and will say anything. And it took the jury just
Speaker 3: three and a half hours to come back and find
Speaker 3: me guilty and murdering kidnapping.
Speaker 1: So now you go back for sentencing, and you would
Speaker 1: not have seemed to be a likely candidate to get
Speaker 1: the death penalty, especially with your background. But in fact
Speaker 1: that's what happened.
Speaker 3: To sit there and going through a mini trivel to
Speaker 3: call an aggravating mitigating hearing, and again this is their
Speaker 3: go to big tough guy prosecutor before a judge. It
Speaker 3: was an ex prosecutor a response for a half a
Speaker 3: dozen people in death row already and to sit through
Speaker 3: this the first part of the aggravating part by the
Speaker 3: prosecution where they have to argue why this is above
Speaker 3: and beyond the norm For the worst of the worst,
Speaker 3: you have to have aggravating factors, at least one to
Speaker 3: get a death sentence. They used the bite mark set.
Speaker 3: It was gratuitous violent success, he pain and suffering on
Speaker 3: a soft tissue of while she was still alive, the
Speaker 3: pain and suffering she must have went through, or because
Speaker 3: they're great at covering any possibilities in all their bases,
Speaker 3: and he said, or it was after she was already dead.
Speaker 3: That's heinous and depray, that's tampering with dead body. That's
Speaker 3: just sick. And it's all his suppositions. He don't know
Speaker 3: what happened, but he even had a dress dummy up
Speaker 3: there showing how this was hacked and this was cut,
Speaker 3: and how she has been I mean, very very powerful.
Speaker 3: And then of course came the defenses turned to put
Speaker 3: on the mitigating. Well, how do you mitigate something you
Speaker 3: didn't do? How do you show remorse regret for an
Speaker 3: act you never committed. I told my her, I got
Speaker 3: nothing to apologized for. I didn't kill her. They got
Speaker 3: the wrong person. And he said, well, we'll put your family,
Speaker 3: your friends, or we can have them testify to your
Speaker 3: good behavior in that background. I said, you're not putting
Speaker 3: my family, my people that I know, on that stand
Speaker 3: and be cross examined by that prosecutor. I said, no way,
Speaker 3: it's not going to happen. And he said, we have
Speaker 3: to tell the judge that right, Well, so I did,
Speaker 3: and I was promptly calling an old, remorseful killer a
Speaker 3: horrible monster, and sentence to.
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Speaker 3: Within a week's time, I was transported by a bust
Speaker 3: straight to the death throw in Arizona. That's just about
Speaker 3: a five by seven center block walled cell. Had stealed
Speaker 3: bars on the front side where the door was. There
Speaker 3: was a little trap there. That's where they fed you through,
Speaker 3: put the mail through. I can tell you I never
Speaker 3: got a hot meal on death row or meal sat
Speaker 3: in the hallway, so they felt like feedus. I got
Speaker 3: one sheet, one towel, one army blanket. There was a
Speaker 3: cement slab that had a about a two inch pad
Speaker 3: on it. I wrapped my sneakers in my towel. That
Speaker 3: was my pillow, and that's where I was to live
Speaker 3: now until they decided when I was going to die again.
Speaker 3: My friends and family believed to me, supported me, but
Speaker 3: I knew this cell and death row is going to
Speaker 3: be my home for quite a while, and I'm going
Speaker 3: to have to learn the survivment here and learn what
Speaker 3: I can about the system to prepare myself for what
Speaker 3: I need to know to fight it in the future
Speaker 3: if I ever had that chance again.
Speaker 1: And you did get that chance again because the Arizona
Speaker 1: Supreme Court overturned your conviction on direct appeal. I mean,
Speaker 1: it's a freaking miracle, right, And how did that miracle
Speaker 1: come to pass?
Speaker 3: Well, they'd still had law library then, and so I
Speaker 3: started going and reading the law books. Actually became a
Speaker 3: legal representative to help other inmates there in prison, both
Speaker 3: on their cases or with dispary issues. So I learned
Speaker 3: a little bit about how that works. Most states, whenever
Speaker 3: you're sentenced to death, it automatically goes direct appeal to
Speaker 3: that state Supreme Court. And in my case, I have
Speaker 3: to say, God bless my worthless attorney. He actually did
Speaker 3: something worthwhile right before our trials to start he was
Speaker 3: on a Friday. The trial started Monday. We were taken
Speaker 3: into the courtroom there in the prosecution and introduced a
Speaker 3: videotape made by their bikemark expert, about forty minutes long,
Speaker 3: about how he conclusively matched my teeth using the latest
Speaker 3: techniques to these bike marks on her body. Very impressive,
Speaker 3: very powerful evidence. And my attorney was awake, he was
Speaker 3: actually paying attention. He said, your honor, I've never seen
Speaker 3: this evidence before. You can't allow this in. At the
Speaker 3: last moment, the judge said, D nine, I'm going to
Speaker 3: allow this in. He said, you got the weekend to
Speaker 3: consult with this expert. And then at a burst of brilliance,
Speaker 3: we actually said you're honor and lighted that ruling. If
Speaker 3: you're gonna allow that evidence in, I'm going to have
Speaker 3: to ask for thirty day continues. I am not prepared
Speaker 3: for this evidence. I need thirty more days. And as
Speaker 3: I said, the judge was consistent, he was an ex prosecutor,
Speaker 3: had people on death road. He said, denied. He said,
Speaker 3: we need to get this trial rolling. So just seven
Speaker 3: months from the murder, he needed to get the trial rolling.
Speaker 3: The arizonas were Supreme Court reviewed the issue for what
Speaker 3: it was. They said, my attorney was well within the
Speaker 3: rights for ask for a continuance. They said the judge
Speaker 3: was wrong for allowing that in at the last moment.
Speaker 3: As a defendant, you have a right to know what
Speaker 3: Evan's going to be used against you. You have a
Speaker 3: right to receive that in a timely manner. But just
Speaker 3: because there's a mistake of technicality and error made does
Speaker 3: not mean you walk free. There's two parts to it,
Speaker 3: and the second part is called a harmless error evaluation,
Speaker 3: and this is where they review this piece of evidence,
Speaker 3: this omission, this era, and whether or not it would
Speaker 3: affect the verdict when the jury even cared, did this matter?
Speaker 3: And the exact words were without this videotape, there wasn't
Speaker 3: even a jury submissible case against mister Krone. They recognized
Speaker 3: this was about a bite mark, that this was critical evidence.
Speaker 3: The judge was wrong and they ordered a new trial.
Speaker 1: And you were lucky enough to have a strong family
Speaker 1: support system throughout your fight. What did they do to
Speaker 1: help in the lead up to your second trial?
Speaker 3: And so God bless them. They mortgaged their house, They
Speaker 3: cashed in with retirement funds. There was different people that
Speaker 3: gave their income tax returns money to my family. And
Speaker 3: I had a second cousin out in California, and he
Speaker 3: was reasonably well off and he'd heard about this from
Speaker 3: his mother and he was dumbfound. He's like, what kind
Speaker 3: of family did I come from? With a murderer on
Speaker 3: death row? And he was intrigued. He came to visit
Speaker 3: me on death row and talked with me, and when
Speaker 3: he was done, he said, something doesn't sound right here.
Speaker 3: And he became a real champion for the fight for
Speaker 3: my innocence. And he knew attorney out of California, and
Speaker 3: from talking through him, the attorney said, let me take
Speaker 3: the case. We couldn't come near the hundreds of thousands
Speaker 3: of dollars required, but he said, just pay the expenses.
Speaker 3: I believe in raid. This case is no good. Let
Speaker 3: me take the case. And so now we had a
Speaker 3: person very experienced attorney. When he showed up for that trial,
Speaker 3: I mean, he had books and books about its stuff
Speaker 3: that he had found out that we never knew about
Speaker 3: in our first trial. Things that they had done with
Speaker 3: everything from even blood sampling and testing and stuff that
Speaker 3: we never knew had been done. More about footprints and
Speaker 3: fingerprints that had been found that we never knew about,
Speaker 3: and all this stuff was coming out at our second trial.
Speaker 3: And when that second trials finally started in February of
Speaker 3: nineteen ninety six, it lasted over seven weeks. Over five
Speaker 3: hundred exhibits were introduced. We had three bitemark experts testify
Speaker 3: the defense alone. It was a whole different scenario now,
Speaker 3: and it was starting to feel good about the truth
Speaker 3: was coming out at this trial.
Speaker 1: Yep. And the truth sure did come out all right.
Speaker 1: So you had DNA testing done on the saliva from
Speaker 1: the bite mark that identified a different contributor, confirming that
Speaker 1: it belonged neither to you nor the victim. So I
Speaker 1: think now everybody is probably on the edge of their
Speaker 1: seats going okay, So now comes to happy ending, right, he.
Speaker 3: Thinks, I mean, my family, we all had reason to
Speaker 3: be very optimistic. Now. The prosecutor, right before they went out,
Speaker 3: and that prosecutor stood before that jury for closing arguments,
Speaker 3: told them to ignore that DNA. Disregard that DNA. He
Speaker 3: said that DNA is easier to explain. She's a way,
Speaker 3: she's a bar tender, she handles glasses all day long.
Speaker 3: That was just transferred there by accident from somebody else.
Speaker 3: He said, we know from the bike mark who did this,
Speaker 3: and you're responsible to see that justice is done for
Speaker 3: the victim's family. And this is his best prosecutor of tone,
Speaker 3: a kindness, consoling, trust me voice that he's telling this
Speaker 3: jury that right before they go out to deliberate. And
Speaker 3: the jury goes out after all that time and come
Speaker 3: back and finds me guilty again, everything just froze for me.
Speaker 3: I see the jurors wiping tears out of their eyes,
Speaker 3: their heads down, they don't want to look at me.
Speaker 3: My attorney's hanging on my shoulder, saying, I can't believe this.
Speaker 3: Why do they see the truth? Don't worry. I'm with
Speaker 3: you to the end. And I look over to prosecution
Speaker 3: side and they're all jumping up and down, celebrating like
Speaker 3: the one the big ball game, And all I can
Speaker 3: think is woeb stop rewinders though this can't be is no,
Speaker 3: it's not possible to But that lasted just seconds because
Speaker 3: I was brought right back to reality because I heard
Speaker 3: the most horrible scream, this moan and wailing from my
Speaker 3: mom and sister not five feet behind me. To turn
Speaker 3: around and see the look in their eye, the tears
Speaker 3: holding their face, and I'd say, Mom, don't cry, Amy,
Speaker 3: my little sister Amy, It'll be all right. Don't worry.
Speaker 3: I'll be okay. You couldn't believe this, what happened? How
Speaker 3: can this be? It's not possible. But there I was
Speaker 3: found guilty again Jesus.
Speaker 1: So they bought that nonsense about the transfer saliva from glassware.
Speaker 1: But luckily the judge had his doubts. And when it
Speaker 1: comes to the Aggravation and Mitigation hearing for your sentencing,
Speaker 1: your attorney, Chris Plored, spent two hours demonstrating how all
Speaker 1: of the pieces of evidence pointed to somebody else, How
Speaker 1: police were able to get footprints at the scene of
Speaker 1: the crime and were able to match them to actual
Speaker 1: shoes size nine and a half converse, but you wear
Speaker 1: a size eleven, right. That fingerprints and palm prince found
Speaker 1: in the bathroom didn't match you, that hair found on
Speaker 1: the victim's body, that salivary DNA didn't match you. And
Speaker 1: all of this made such an impression on the judge,
Speaker 1: Superior Court Judge James McDougal, that he said, quote, the
Speaker 1: court is left with a residual or lingering doubt about
Speaker 1: the clear identity of the killer. This is one of
Speaker 1: those cases that will haunt me for the rest of
Speaker 1: my life, wondering whether I have done the right thing.
Speaker 2: End quote.
Speaker 1: Wow, I mean he still had to sentence you, but
Speaker 1: he was definitely not convinced beyond a reasonable doubt.
Speaker 3: And yeah, he sends me to twenty five delight for
Speaker 3: the murk, and then he went on too aggravate kidnapping
Speaker 3: and added on twenty one more So, I was actually
Speaker 3: facing forty six years in prison before I'd ever have
Speaker 3: an opportunity to get out. It was a death sentence.
Speaker 3: I'd had to be eighty one years old to ever
Speaker 3: have my first shot at a release. You don't live
Speaker 3: to be eighty one in our prisons, no.
Speaker 1: Very few people do, even on the outside of the
Speaker 1: life expectancy is less than that. So now you're back
Speaker 1: to prison, and while it's not death row this time,
Speaker 1: as you said, it's still really a living death sentence.
Speaker 1: I mean, did you find a way to maintain hope
Speaker 1: at this point?
Speaker 3: Years go by, my appeals are turned down. They said, no,
Speaker 3: this is a fair trial. There's nothing wrong with this
Speaker 3: trial yet, But I'm thinking man, I'm going to here.
Speaker 3: My family is still doing newsletter. They figured we got
Speaker 3: to find out who did this. It's the only way
Speaker 3: we can get them out here. My cousin, Jim Rix
Speaker 3: in California is working strenuously to find hiring people to
Speaker 3: investigate doing different things, and nothing's really panning out. And
Speaker 3: then in two thousand and one, Arizona state legislatures passed
Speaker 3: a new law allowing for post conviction relief DNA testing.
Speaker 3: Most states are only allowed a small window after your
Speaker 3: conviction to bring up new evidence. If you didn't bring
Speaker 3: it up a trial, it's very hard to ever bring
Speaker 3: it up again. But they recognized that DNA was too critical,
Speaker 3: too definitive, too important to just ignore on a time restraint,
Speaker 3: so they passed a new law allowing for post conviction
Speaker 3: relief on DNA material, provided it was previously on tested
Speaker 3: that would have direct bearing on guilt or innocence, and
Speaker 3: that it was properly maintained. And I have to say God,
Speaker 3: bless you, thank you Phoenich police department, because they kept
Speaker 3: the clothing in Kim's case. She had been stabbed with
Speaker 3: a big butcher knife from the kitchen through her clothing
Speaker 3: which was then cut off with that butcher knife and
Speaker 3: thrown in a corner. She had been stabbed so forcibly
Speaker 3: with this butcher knife that it actually bent the blade,
Speaker 3: and my experts all surmised there was a good chance
Speaker 3: the person willing that knife may have cut themselves. And
Speaker 3: so we were able to get a look at those
Speaker 3: clothing that they had kept preserved and stored, and my
Speaker 3: journey was able to see that there was blood on
Speaker 3: her pants, on her underwear. Meanwhile, I was visited by
Speaker 3: a man named Alan Simpson and investigator Tom Street would
Speaker 3: to know if I would like them to represent me.
Speaker 3: I'm like, I have no money or no, No, that's
Speaker 3: not what we're talking about. We want to represent you
Speaker 3: in this case and have this post conviction relief DNA
Speaker 3: testing done, so I can't pay you anything for about
Speaker 3: five minutes, I can't pay you if only got to
Speaker 3: the point, That's not what mattered to them. They wanted
Speaker 3: to represent me. They bleed in my innocence and they
Speaker 3: would then petitioned the courts under that new law to
Speaker 3: have DNA testing done on that pants and underwear that
Speaker 3: they had found some type of a staining. That testing
Speaker 3: was now being done. It started in October. We were
Speaker 3: told it would take six to eight weeks. October went by,
Speaker 3: and November went by, December went by, January went by,
Speaker 3: still no results. I'm waiting, I'm anxious. Went it up.
Speaker 3: It turned out that they actually had results back, but
Speaker 3: it came back with a match to a another man
Speaker 3: that was currently serving a ten year sentence for sexually
Speaker 3: assaulting a child. It came back three or four times.
Speaker 3: The prosecution to have the rerun it and rerun it
Speaker 3: and rerun it.
Speaker 1: And it's important that we mentioned that this man who
Speaker 1: the DNA actually matched was a guy named Kenneth Phillips, right,
Speaker 1: And as you said, this was a guy who was
Speaker 1: at that time incarcerated for sexually assaulting and choking a
Speaker 1: seven year old girl.
Speaker 2: It's unreal.
Speaker 1: And at the time of the murder, he was not
Speaker 1: only on probation for breaking into a neighboring woman's apartment
Speaker 1: and choking her while threatening to kill her, but he
Speaker 1: was also living just six hundred yards away from the
Speaker 1: CBS lounge where the victim was killed. So it's horrible
Speaker 1: to think that this horrendous ordeal that you went through
Speaker 1: and the one suffered by that poor little child could
Speaker 1: have been avoided entirely. Unfortunately that was not the case,
Speaker 1: and it took all of those years later, and these
Speaker 1: critical DNA test.
Speaker 3: Results felltly was leaked at that the DNA results were
Speaker 3: back and then it matched another person. Things happened very quickly.
Speaker 3: Then on April eighth, I was called over to the
Speaker 3: counselor's office. He said, your attorney's on the phone. And
Speaker 3: I got the phone and it was Alan. He said, Ray,
Speaker 3: how you doing today? I said, five? Just in their
Speaker 3: day at paradise. He laughed. He said, what do you want?
Speaker 3: Want to eat? I said, well, what are you talking about?
Speaker 3: Whatever's in the towel. He goes, no, no, no, what
Speaker 3: do you want? He steak? Seafood ekes a good food,
Speaker 3: a beer? What would you like? Ray? I said, Alan,
Speaker 3: what the devil are you talking about? He said, I
Speaker 3: just got off the phone with the prosecutor's office. They
Speaker 3: just got back from the judges chambers. They're cutting the
Speaker 3: paperwork and coming home today. And I just what did
Speaker 3: you say? He said, Roll up, Ray, it's all over.
Speaker 3: You're coming home. And I looked at the counselor and
Speaker 3: I gave him the phone, and he'd hung it up
Speaker 3: and well his phone rang right away and he picked yes,
Speaker 3: sir right, he's right here. Yes, his eyes are getting bigger.
Speaker 3: Yesterday I'll haven't done. Yes, absolutely, I'll take care of it. Said.
Speaker 3: That was the ward. He said, you need to go
Speaker 3: back and roll your stuff up. You're being released, mister crone.
Speaker 3: I walked out of that prison about three hours later,
Speaker 3: looking at over my shoulder and wondered what the devil
Speaker 3: were they up to this time because they never accepted
Speaker 3: my innocence, they never believed what I said. And now,
Speaker 3: just like that one day and back in December thirty first,
Speaker 3: it was when I woke up in my house and
Speaker 3: that evening I went to sleep in a jail. So
Speaker 3: that morning I woke up in a prison cell and
Speaker 3: went home to sleep. But I was released and my attorney,
Speaker 3: Chris Plord, came from over in California. He picked me
Speaker 3: up and drove me off that day to escort me
Speaker 3: off to start my life all over again at the
Speaker 3: age of forty five, after ten years, stream months and
Speaker 3: eight days, to reunite with my family and friends, with
Speaker 3: the distinction of being the one undred person in America
Speaker 3: too have been convicted of a capitol murder, sentence to death,
Speaker 3: and later to be free, to be exonerated, to be
Speaker 3: proven innocent. Wow.
Speaker 1: You know, it's really such an inspiring story with a
Speaker 1: lot of villains, but you know, when you think about it,
Speaker 1: there are even more heroes than villains. Like you're a
Speaker 1: Pallett attorney Chris Plored. You know, hearing his name reminds
Speaker 1: me of a story I heard about a sting that
Speaker 1: was done to expose the notorious bite Mark Charlotte and
Speaker 1: Michael West, Mississippi. And in that sting, Michael West was
Speaker 1: given a set of dental molds that he was told
Speaker 1: belonged to a suspect in some crime or other. But
Speaker 1: it turned out that the dental molds were actually the
Speaker 1: ones belonging to the investigator who was part of this sting.
Speaker 1: And of course, this freaking numbnot's West identifies the dental
Speaker 1: molds as those belonging to the culprit in this fake case,
Speaker 1: thereby exposing himself as just one of many frauds in
Speaker 1: this field.
Speaker 3: It was my cousin's dentician that was sent to doctor
Speaker 3: West out dur In, Mississippi, with using the picture that
Speaker 3: was the bite mark on the breasts, saying that it
Speaker 3: was actually a child abuse case and could he be
Speaker 3: of any help whether or not this was a suspect,
Speaker 3: and could you identify that West identified my cousin's teeth
Speaker 3: is making the mark that I was convicted of maker
Speaker 3: Wait wait what it was my cousin's teeth, Jim Rix's teeth.
Speaker 1: That's amazing And oh man, I mean speaking of frauds,
Speaker 1: what about Ray Rosen?
Speaker 2: The experts in New York case, was he ever exposed?
Speaker 3: What ended up happened? It turned out that Ray Rosin
Speaker 3: was I almost say outcast, but he was certainly chastised
Speaker 3: by the rest of the people in his profession and
Speaker 3: knew they all could point quick fingers at where he's wrong, saying,
Speaker 3: why are you doing this? You know you're wrong. And
Speaker 3: he actually resigned from the dental school after my release.
Speaker 3: I couldn't sue him because he was protected under immunity
Speaker 3: from the prosecutor, but he did resign his post at
Speaker 3: the dental school. He also lost his re election as senator.
Speaker 3: But yeah, Ray Rosen held on to the end when
Speaker 3: all the other experts said you're wrong, why you're doing this?
Speaker 3: And We actually had him on tape for the lawsuit.
Speaker 3: If we could have went after saying I'm just in
Speaker 3: too deep to back out now. So what kind of
Speaker 3: system do we have that allows people like that to
Speaker 3: get paid exorbitant amount of money to testify to something
Speaker 3: that they weren't even sure of, but they're in too
Speaker 3: deep to back up and admit they were wrong. Walking
Speaker 3: out that gate that day, being number one hundred, there
Speaker 3: was notoriety. One hundred was a special number. There was
Speaker 3: a number of events that went on around the country
Speaker 3: for that molestone, and there was the media outside Mike
Speaker 3: Gate just want to talk to see what it's like.
Speaker 3: But what are you going to do now? How's it feel?
Speaker 3: And I talked about how my family and friends had
Speaker 3: stood by, how I read the Bible front back three
Speaker 3: and a half times during those ten years and stepped
Speaker 3: with it under my pillow, and reporter back and raised
Speaker 3: his hand. He said, well, mister Crone, giving your faith
Speaker 3: in God, how do you justify him leaving you in
Speaker 3: prison for ten years? I thought, what, how do I
Speaker 3: justify God leaving me in prison for ten years? How
Speaker 3: do you answer a deep soul searching question like that?
Speaker 3: I mean the prison is right behind me. I've been
Speaker 3: out five minutes, and I'm dumbfounded. I'm frozen underard. And
Speaker 3: then all of a suddenly something shot in my head.
Speaker 3: I said, well, you know, maybe it's not about those
Speaker 3: ten years I spent in prison. Maybe it's about what
Speaker 3: I have to do the next ten years. It took
Speaker 3: three weeks to go back before a judge, at which
Speaker 3: point the judge ordered a new trow and that's when
Speaker 3: the prosecution stepped forward and said they were dropping charges
Speaker 3: with prejudice meeting that could never be tried again. And
Speaker 3: at that point said, mister Krone, you're free to go.
Speaker 3: Good luck. I time to think maybe there was a
Speaker 3: reason that somebody like me had to go through this,
Speaker 3: because again, if they can put me on death throw anybody,
Speaker 3: it's acceptable almost to that. And then so I shared
Speaker 3: my story in my background, and at the time, his
Speaker 3: sister Helen was fighting her own war so to speak
Speaker 3: against the death penny. She had the ideal about what
Speaker 3: better way to talk about the death pilty and how
Speaker 3: wrong it is and to have somebody that was innocently
Speaker 3: convicted of it. And I was asked if I would
Speaker 3: come on board to share my story. She was out
Speaker 3: of New Orleans at a time. It lasted probably good
Speaker 3: six months, almost a year, and as anything funny gets
Speaker 3: difficult to have and it was finally folded up years later.
Speaker 3: Man Kurt Rosenberg out Philadelphia had to contact her sister
Speaker 3: Helen and said, I'd like to resurrect Witness Innocence with
Speaker 3: your blessings, with your approval, and she said yes absolutely.
Speaker 3: He had contacted another man he knew there in Philadelphia,
Speaker 3: that was grant writer Terry Ramsey, and then I was
Speaker 3: contacted the resurrect Witness Innocence and between the three I
Speaker 3: was Then we ended up drawing up a nonprofit organization
Speaker 3: US to five oh one three C. We got our
Speaker 3: LLC and we started Witness Citizens, and I believe that
Speaker 3: was around two thousand and five somewhere in there. And
Speaker 3: since then we've grown it now to staff a five
Speaker 3: or six at least paid staff, over thirty some members
Speaker 3: that are active. But we share our stories around the country.
Speaker 3: We've spoken all the states that have at leashed to
Speaker 3: death peny. Our people come and shared their stories, both
Speaker 3: men and women who like me, were wrongly convicted, who
Speaker 3: walked that walk on death row, who were facing a
Speaker 3: possible execution, and later, by the grace of God and
Speaker 3: good fortune and the hard work of others, including innocence
Speaker 3: projects and justice projects around the country, that we're able
Speaker 3: to get our freedom and now use our voice to
Speaker 3: say what is wrong and how we can abolish the
Speaker 3: death peny and fix certain other aspects of our justicysm
Speaker 3: that have continued to malfunction and result in wrongful convictions
Speaker 3: of minicent people.
Speaker 1: Amen to that, and I hope people will go to
Speaker 1: the website, of course, it's Witness to Innocence dot org.
Speaker 1: Now we have a tradition here at wrongful conviction. It's
Speaker 1: called closing our Us and it works very simply. Again,
Speaker 1: I thank you Ray for being such a great leader
Speaker 1: and just an inspiring guy for so many of us,
Speaker 1: a hero for so many of us, including myself, and
Speaker 1: for being here on the show. And then what happens
Speaker 1: now is I turned my microphone off, kick back in
Speaker 1: my chair, leave my headphones on, and just listen as
Speaker 1: you share with our audience anything else you may want
Speaker 1: to say. The microphone is yours, Ray Crone, closing arguments.
Speaker 3: Thank you for that opportunity. Actually, i'd like to share too.
Speaker 3: I think twice of those trials, Kim's mom, a wonderful lady,
Speaker 3: bath with adamants and anger, denounce me and victims' impact statements,
Speaker 3: and rightfully so, she thought I killed her daughter. But
Speaker 3: that day came when I had to go before that judge,
Speaker 3: as I said, for that new trial, and the charges
Speaker 3: were dropped, and the judge bang the galla, Miss Crone,
Speaker 3: you're free to go. I noticed Kim's mom, and the
Speaker 3: crowd is mostly all my friends and family members. But
Speaker 3: she had come walking up a frail lady. Now after
Speaker 3: almost ten years or so, she'd been through this, come
Speaker 3: up walking on a cane. Sadden almost in tears to
Speaker 3: mister Crone, I'm so sorry for what happened to you.
Speaker 3: I know what it's like to lose a loved one.
Speaker 3: I lost my daughter. Your mom lost you for ten years.
Speaker 3: She said, Please forgive me. I just believed what they
Speaker 3: told me, and I said, ma'm your apologies, certainly accept
Speaker 3: that it's not necessary. I can understand your anger at
Speaker 3: me and thinking I'd killed your daughter. I did not
Speaker 3: kill your daughter. I thank you for coming up to me,
Speaker 3: I said, And now it's my first opportunity to actually,
Speaker 3: I'll offer you my condolences. I only knew your lovely
Speaker 3: daughter for a few months, but she seemed like a
Speaker 3: very nice and special person. But there it was a system.
Speaker 3: Wasn't just doing it to my famous system had done
Speaker 3: it to her family now too. She was at that point,
Speaker 3: was actually looking at the possibility having to go back
Speaker 3: to travel again, see all the brutal pictures at the
Speaker 3: prosecutional show of her daughter again and had to sit
Speaker 3: through that testimony. They were doing it to her too,
Speaker 3: And she said, I just believed they told me, And
Speaker 3: I wish some of the good fortune that I've had
Speaker 3: in my case could be blessed on all those other ones,
Speaker 3: those moms and those daughters, those sisters, those wives that
Speaker 3: are fighting for their husband, their loved one right now,
Speaker 3: who totally believe in their innocence. So I just want
Speaker 3: those folks that might be listening, that are struggling with
Speaker 3: their own case right now, to keep that faith alive,
Speaker 3: to keep that open and know that people do care
Speaker 3: about you. Why we might not know you personally, we
Speaker 3: know of your hardships, we know of the struggles, and
Speaker 3: we have people like you today's putting this on the
Speaker 3: air doing podcasts and showing the errors, mistakes and fighting
Speaker 3: for that justice system that we could all be proud
Speaker 3: of in trust.
Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to Wrongful Conviction. Please support your
Speaker 1: local innocence organizations and go to the links in.
Speaker 2: Our bio to see how you can help.
Speaker 1: I'd like to thank our production team Connor Hall, Justin Golden,
Speaker 1: Jeff Clyburn, and Kevin Wardis. The music on this show,
Speaker 1: as always, is by three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph.
Speaker 1: Be sure to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction,
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Speaker 1: Conviction Podcast. Wrongful Conviction is a production of Lava for
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