Speaker 1: On December, the body of a thirty six year old
Speaker 1: bartender was found nude in the men's restroom of her
Speaker 1: bar in Phoenix, Arizona. She had been assaulted and fatally stabbed.
Speaker 1: No seaman was found, however, what appeared to be bite
Speaker 1: marks were on her neck and breast, along with saliva.
Speaker 1: With DNA testing still in its infancy, pyrology tests could
Speaker 1: only show that both the blood and saliva at the
Speaker 1: scene matched the victim's blood type. One witness implied that
Speaker 1: the victim may have been dating a thirty four year
Speaker 1: old bar regular named Ray Crone, who the victim allegedly
Speaker 1: had mentioned was supposed to help her close up that night,
Speaker 1: but since Ray had been at home with his roommate
Speaker 1: at the time of the crime, he had nothing to hide,
Speaker 1: fully cooperating with investigators and eventually giving a blood sample
Speaker 1: and an impression of his teeth. With the limitations of
Speaker 1: the prology in this case, the notorious junk science of
Speaker 1: bite mark analysis became the sole evidence against Ray to judge.
Speaker 1: His denial of a continuance for the defense to prayer
Speaker 1: to refute this evidence made a path for a second trial,
Speaker 1: but not before Ray was convicted and sentenced to death.
Speaker 1: At the second trial, with the salivary DNA evidence excluding Ray,
Speaker 1: he was still reconvicted, but this time the judge sentenced
Speaker 1: rate of life while voicing his obvious doubts. In two
Speaker 1: thousand two, further DNA testing both excluded Ray as well
Speaker 1: as identified a convicted child molester named Kenneth Phillips as
Speaker 1: the actual killer. Within days, Ray Crone became the former
Speaker 1: death row inmate freed based on actual innocence since capital
Speaker 1: punishment was reinstated in n This this wrongful conviction, Welcome
Speaker 1: back to ronful conviction. Today's episode will rock your world.
Speaker 1: And I say that with such a high degree of
Speaker 1: confidence because story this man, Ray Crone, was the one
Speaker 1: d exonoree from death row in the United States, and
Speaker 1: his case is so troubling because, on top of all
Speaker 1: the other terrible things, race case relied solely on the
Speaker 1: junkiest of junk sciences, which is bite mark evidence that
Speaker 1: was it nothing else. And furthermore, as happens too often
Speaker 1: in too many of the cases that we cover, the
Speaker 1: actual perpetrator went on to commit an unspeakable crime after
Speaker 1: Ray was targeted. For reasons that we'll get into later
Speaker 1: which are inexplicable, but they're real. So without further Ado,
Speaker 1: Ray Crone, welcome to wrongful conviction. Well, thank you, I'm
Speaker 1: glad to be here. And Ray, your case happened in
Speaker 1: Maricopa County, Arizona, which has a notorious past of prosecutorial misconduct.
Speaker 1: In fact, when referring to some more recent instances, and
Speaker 1: a c l U article said, and this is a quote,
Speaker 1: it is indicative of a decade long culture of misconduct
Speaker 1: that flows from the top down, one that prioritizes winning
Speaker 1: convictions over pursuing fairness and executing justice. End quote. And
Speaker 1: to be fair, in Americopa, that quote could be applied
Speaker 1: to uh countless prosecutors offices all over the country. But
Speaker 1: in your case, the prosecutor was Noel Levy, who sent
Speaker 1: at least two innocent people to death throw that we
Speaker 1: know of, right, The first was Deborah Milky. Back in
Speaker 1: Levy hid the lead detective's long history of lying under oath,
Speaker 1: and that was exposed in two thousand fifteen, which allowed
Speaker 1: Debora Milky to finally clear her name. And then, of
Speaker 1: course you but before all of this insanity, can you
Speaker 1: take us back a bit? What was your life like
Speaker 1: growing up. Well, I was actually born and raised with
Speaker 1: a small agricultural town in southern Pennsylvania. I went to
Speaker 1: the same high school and my grandparents went to the
Speaker 1: same church my great grandparents went to. I was involved
Speaker 1: at church. I was on the choir, also played Little
Speaker 1: League baseball, Peewee football. Is involve Alton sports. And I
Speaker 1: grew up growing vegetables and hunting and fishing and the
Speaker 1: typical things that small town country boys do. And graduated
Speaker 1: nineteen seventy four and I entered in the U. S.
Speaker 1: Air Force, so I signed it for six years active duty.
Speaker 1: Was stationed places like Texas, Mississippi, then Georgia, Maine, and
Speaker 1: then the last was Phoenix, Arizona. My six years were up.
Speaker 1: I got out of there A few years later. I
Speaker 1: got a job of the post office and and life
Speaker 1: was really pretty good again. I played a lot of sports,
Speaker 1: and that's really where my problem arose because of the
Speaker 1: one bar that I played volleyball, four that I had
Speaker 1: shot darts at a few times became a scene of
Speaker 1: a murder right and this particular crime occurred on December
Speaker 1: where the body of a thirty six year old woman
Speaker 1: was found nude in the men's restaurant of the CBS
Speaker 1: Lounge in Phoenix, Arizona. The bar owner had found the
Speaker 1: body of the previous night's bartender and she had been
Speaker 1: brutally assaulted and stabbed at death. Now this remember this
Speaker 1: was back in the early nineties, right, so DNA testing
Speaker 1: was still in its infancy, right it was. It was
Speaker 1: a new thing, so they only had prology to work with,
Speaker 1: and at the time, it seemed like there was very
Speaker 1: little physical evidence left behind. There was no semen, right,
Speaker 1: and the blood and saliva at the scene all matched
Speaker 1: the victim's blood type. There were, though, um, what appeared
Speaker 1: to be human bite marks on the victim's neck and breast. So,
Speaker 1: which is We've talked about that before. How notorious they're reliable,
Speaker 1: that is, but so ray from these facts. How did
Speaker 1: they even come to suspect and ultimately target you. Yeah,
Speaker 1: she was. She was found by the owner and he
Speaker 1: came in on that Sunday morning to put up his bar,
Speaker 1: found the front door unlocked, was concerned why his night
Speaker 1: manager hadn't taken care of secured and heone made his
Speaker 1: way to the cash reader to a safe both row
Speaker 1: and on secured the money was still in there. As
Speaker 1: he made his way around the bar, he found her
Speaker 1: body in the men's bathroom, and of course the police
Speaker 1: were called in and they initiated an investigation on the
Speaker 1: sumption had to be somebody that knew her. No evidence
Speaker 1: of breaking, no sign, but robbery. They talked to some
Speaker 1: of the co workers, one of a mentioned my name
Speaker 1: as a potential boyfriend. I did not dat her. She
Speaker 1: was not my girlfriend. I knew her from the bar.
Speaker 1: You treat bartenders and then waitresses kindly in any profession
Speaker 1: if you're going to be attending that place of business,
Speaker 1: and that's all it was. But it was about one
Speaker 1: o'clock on that sudden the end I heard my dog
Speaker 1: was outside. He started barking. Two men in suits had
Speaker 1: pulled in front of my neighbor's house and we're getting
Speaker 1: out of their car. And by the time I went
Speaker 1: outside to let my dog and they were walking up
Speaker 1: my driveway and I stepped out and it said, excuse me,
Speaker 1: can I help you? The one man said, are you
Speaker 1: Ray Crona. I said, well, yes I am. What can
Speaker 1: I do for you? And he said, you know, and
Speaker 1: I thought his say said I don't think I know
Speaker 1: anybody named, and he exchanged glances with the man next
Speaker 1: to him, look like he said, you don't know from
Speaker 1: the CBS lounge. I said, well, wait a minute. I
Speaker 1: played volleyball there, I shoot darts there. Sometimes there's a
Speaker 1: girl their names. I said, I don't know her last name,
Speaker 1: and he kind of looked at me. So he says,
Speaker 1: you don't know her last name? Your boyfriend, aren't you.
Speaker 1: I kind of said no, I'm not her boyfriend. What's
Speaker 1: going on here? He said, well, you're dating your aren't you.
Speaker 1: I said, no, I'm not dating. What is this about?
Speaker 1: And at that point, he opened up his jacket, pulled
Speaker 1: has badge, identified himself as homicide detective and informed me
Speaker 1: of her death. Said he was there to ask me
Speaker 1: a few questions. Now I'm stunned. I've been going to
Speaker 1: that bar about two months. Here's somebody I knew was
Speaker 1: a victim of a homicide, and the police are at
Speaker 1: my house to ask me questions. The first thing I said,
Speaker 1: I was sure, come on inside, and he said no,
Speaker 1: we really need to do this downtown. And so I
Speaker 1: was interrogated for the next three hours about how long
Speaker 1: we've been dating, where did I take her on dates
Speaker 1: when every time she's been to my house all of them,
Speaker 1: I told him, we're negative. You know, she never been
Speaker 1: to my house. I didn't date her. I would see
Speaker 1: her at the bar. I was at a Christmas party
Speaker 1: with a number of people from the bar at one
Speaker 1: point with her and that was it. At one point
Speaker 1: they took my sneakers out. Another point they took mug shots.
Speaker 1: They had me take my shirt off, took pictures of
Speaker 1: upper torso, they took fingerprints. Another party, he had like
Speaker 1: a white ster foam cups had a tied two pieces
Speaker 1: together where I actually been into that and I cooperated.
Speaker 1: I didn't know anything about her death. I didn't know
Speaker 1: her that well. I was at home that night. I
Speaker 1: have a roommate that knows I was home that night,
Speaker 1: and after about three hours it was over and I
Speaker 1: thought that was the induct But then the next day,
Speaker 1: which was a Monday, I went to the post office,
Speaker 1: delivered my mail, got home that day and there he
Speaker 1: was waiting. Detective Gregory said, I need to eliminate user suspect.
Speaker 1: I don't think you've been completely truthful. You want to cooperate,
Speaker 1: don't you? Mr Crone And I said, sure, what is
Speaker 1: it you need me to do? And he said, I
Speaker 1: need you to come downtown again again. I volunteered to
Speaker 1: go towntown this time. When I got down there in
Speaker 1: a little interrogation room, right away, he pulled out a
Speaker 1: piece of paper said, oh, yeah, by the way, I
Speaker 1: have a affidavit here your request for for evidence, and
Speaker 1: that it said that you were going to take a
Speaker 1: blood sample or hair sample to cast in my teeth.
Speaker 1: Now I'm a little upset. Now I'm concerned, like what's
Speaker 1: going on here? I was signed by a judge said
Speaker 1: I was required to give these samples, and it said
Speaker 1: they had three hours to do it. So I cooperated
Speaker 1: when he took blood out of both arms. I'm not
Speaker 1: sure why that was necessary. I cooperated when he took
Speaker 1: hair samples, and then I was taking next door in
Speaker 1: a bigger room where there was a dentist and a
Speaker 1: dentist chair set up, at which point they sat me
Speaker 1: into chair, put this goup, and he took two casts
Speaker 1: in my upper teeth to cast my lower teeth, And
Speaker 1: for about the next two and a half hours was
Speaker 1: nothing but taking pictures in question me about my dentition history.
Speaker 1: When I was eighteen years old. I was a passenger
Speaker 1: and a head on collision. I woke up with a
Speaker 1: broken jaw, mouth wear and shut. Six weeks went by.
Speaker 1: The bottom jaw didn't line up at the top. They
Speaker 1: had a rebreak and wear and shut again for another
Speaker 1: six weeks. I had some teeth and it eventually had died.
Speaker 1: I had some teeth issues, root canals, if some bridge work,
Speaker 1: some different things that went on with the front teeth
Speaker 1: in my mouth and foundly when that was over, I
Speaker 1: went next door to that little interrogation room at Wedgpoint
Speaker 1: to detective banged his desk with his big old book
Speaker 1: and said, look, it's time to come. Please, time to
Speaker 1: tell the truth. I know you didn't once you just
Speaker 1: confess that we can all go home. Well, by now
Speaker 1: I was pretty angry. I was pretty upset with what
Speaker 1: was going on way I was being treated. I was
Speaker 1: almost thirty five years old. I'm not a little child.
Speaker 1: I spoke up to him. I told him what I
Speaker 1: thought of him, when I thought the investigation the police department,
Speaker 1: Why you waste my time go find a person that
Speaker 1: did this? And by the way, your three hours were up,
Speaker 1: I mean I was hot and he looked at me,
Speaker 1: looked at his watch, he looked back up. He said, look,
Speaker 1: Mr Crown, I'm not gonna argue with you. There's other
Speaker 1: ways to handle this. He took me home in fifteen
Speaker 1: minute ride, never said a word to him again. I
Speaker 1: thought that was the end of it, but I found
Speaker 1: out what he meant by other ways to handle this
Speaker 1: The next day, December thirty first, was just about four o'clock.
Speaker 1: I pulled into my driveway, just stepped out of my car,
Speaker 1: which point, all of a sudden, they heard a speak
Speaker 1: or go off, freeze, don't move your underrest or. Van
Speaker 1: load of police officers came pulling up. Black and whites
Speaker 1: came pulling up. The van doors opened up with armed
Speaker 1: officers in full riot gear, threw me on the ground
Speaker 1: and rested me for murder, kidnapping, and sexual assault. Jesus Christ,
Speaker 1: So there you are spending New Year's Eve in a
Speaker 1: jail cell, and from what I understand, you stayed right
Speaker 1: there until trial. But you had your roommate right who
Speaker 1: had been home with you that night, so it should
Speaker 1: have seemed like you could clear this up pretty easily.
Speaker 1: And from what I understand, you had a public defender
Speaker 1: did they share the same optimism. One day I got
Speaker 1: called out to a legal visit. I've probably been in
Speaker 1: there for a good month or two, and it's just
Speaker 1: like you see on TV with a separate area where
Speaker 1: one picks a phone and you talked through clear glass.
Speaker 1: And I was in there in a lady came inside
Speaker 1: a briefcase down, picked up the phone and identified herself
Speaker 1: as representing the Public Defender's office, and she said, you've
Speaker 1: been charged with murder, kidnapping, its sexual assault. You can
Speaker 1: expect to be found guilty, but we'll fight it on appeal.
Speaker 1: And I went crazy, What do you mean if he
Speaker 1: found getting had not do his own? But I just
Speaker 1: started going off, ranting and raven and she got the
Speaker 1: phone held away from her ear, waiting for me to
Speaker 1: calm down. And she got back in that phone and
Speaker 1: she said, listen, Mr Crone, let me tell you something.
Speaker 1: I don't take that tone of voice from the judge.
Speaker 1: I don't take it from the prosecutor, and I'm certainly
Speaker 1: not going to take it from you. Hung up the phone,
Speaker 1: picked up a briefcase and was going and I thought,
Speaker 1: this is incredible, what what what is the system? I
Speaker 1: believed and what the country. I believe that things I
Speaker 1: stood for and was talking, you know, raised to believe. Anyway,
Speaker 1: I got a letter about a week or two later
Speaker 1: for the Public Defender's office that stated that they were
Speaker 1: being removed from my case. They cited a conflict interests
Speaker 1: at the next most likely suspect was the victim's ex husband.
Speaker 1: They had a fifteen year old daughter together, and he
Speaker 1: did a sleepover for her birthday and did something inappropriate
Speaker 1: with one of her little girlfriends, and we arrested rightfully.
Speaker 1: So and they were representing him, and I was told
Speaker 1: that I would beginning a court of pointed attorney. I thought,
Speaker 1: oh good, I'm gonna get a private attorney. Now, somebody's
Speaker 1: gonna be appointed to representate. Somebody will do the job.
Speaker 1: But unfortunately, the day I went before the judge to
Speaker 1: get a courter pointed attorney, it was a man had
Speaker 1: never done a death penalty case. And at the point
Speaker 1: where the judge appointed him to me, he was granted
Speaker 1: five thousand dollars to defend me, to represent me in
Speaker 1: a capital murder case. Yeah, and of course the state
Speaker 1: has unlimited resources to do what they want to do. Heck,
Speaker 1: you can't even get a divorce for five thousand dollars. Yeah,
Speaker 1: don't don't, I know it, believe me. But and they're
Speaker 1: giving really just enough to create the impression that they're
Speaker 1: enabling you to mount some sort of a defense, but
Speaker 1: not enough realistically for anybody to amount a real defense.
Speaker 1: So seven months after the murder, you're on trial. This
Speaker 1: was a three and a half day trial. The prosecution
Speaker 1: was pretty much all three days. And that's why I
Speaker 1: found out why they had me biden that stereopham that
Speaker 1: first day, why they took those casts my teeth the
Speaker 1: second day, because they had a bite mark expert testify,
Speaker 1: a Ray Rosen out of Nevada, very impressive, well spoken man.
Speaker 1: He was a dean of the UNLB Dental School. He
Speaker 1: was a state center out of Las Vegas. He was
Speaker 1: the elder in the Mormon Church. Very powerful speaker, very convincing.
Speaker 1: We had later found out very well paid over fifty
Speaker 1: dollars by the Maricopa County d A's office for his testimony.
Speaker 1: But his testimony was that my teeth were unique as
Speaker 1: a result of the car accident. I was in my
Speaker 1: teeth matched the marks in the body, and then those
Speaker 1: marks in the body were made at the time of death,
Speaker 1: and that definitively made me Ray crown the murder. There
Speaker 1: really wasn't much other evidence, but I was called a
Speaker 1: snaggertooth killer in the papers, the snaggletooth killer. So for
Speaker 1: ten times what you got for your whole defense, that
Speaker 1: fifty grand even came with a schoolyard bully nickname, right,
Speaker 1: And what they're really paying for with a forensic ode
Speaker 1: ontologist is their resume, pomp and circumstance, because if you
Speaker 1: were looking for substance and bite mark analysis, well they're
Speaker 1: just isn't any there's not a shred. I can't even
Speaker 1: I can't even put into words the disdain I have
Speaker 1: for this particular junk science. I encourage everyone to listen
Speaker 1: to our series Rawful Conviction Junk Science. The first episode
Speaker 1: exposes bite mark analysis for what it really is. And
Speaker 1: let's start out by saying that one of the original
Speaker 1: purposes of forensic odentology is identifying human remains with dental records.
Speaker 1: What I mean is, for instance, like a person was
Speaker 1: on a flight, right and the flight crashed into a
Speaker 1: mountain side or whatever, it gets obliterated, But now you've
Speaker 1: got a situation where you're matching a limited and known
Speaker 1: set of bodies to corresponding dental impressions and dental histories.
Speaker 1: So you have a full set of teeth that you're
Speaker 1: comparing to a full set of X rays from a
Speaker 1: dentist's office. But with bite mark analysis, the so called
Speaker 1: expert pretends without taking into account that the many, many
Speaker 1: variables of the medium on which a bite was recorded. Right,
Speaker 1: So what I mean is, in this particular case, human
Speaker 1: skin and tissue, so we're talking about elasticity, decomposition. I
Speaker 1: could go on, but from there they act as if
Speaker 1: they're able to match perfectly a dental mold from a
Speaker 1: suspect to marks made on a surface that's transitioning, and
Speaker 1: they claimed to be able to do this to the
Speaker 1: exclusion of all others on the planet, as Ray Rosen
Speaker 1: did in this case. So yeah, no, But as Ray mentioned,
Speaker 1: they impressed the hell out of the jury with their
Speaker 1: witnesses purported credentials, and this time tested method has tragically
Speaker 1: been very effective at producing convictions, often with no other
Speaker 1: evidence of any kind. So that was the state's case.
Speaker 1: But what about your defense? Now, the second half the trial,
Speaker 1: which was a defensive turn, which was like the last
Speaker 1: half a day. I actually took the stand. I raised
Speaker 1: my right hand, I went up there answer of my
Speaker 1: attorney's questions, and there came the prosecutor. No LEVI got
Speaker 1: up there right in front of me right away. So
Speaker 1: you deny killing the victim? I said, yes, I do
Speaker 1: you deny being the CBS down. I said, what night
Speaker 1: you said the night you killed her? Of course, crowne
Speaker 1: the night you brutally took her life. I just started
Speaker 1: tearing into me. I mean everything I said was twisted around,
Speaker 1: and after two or three hours was cross examination. I
Speaker 1: come down off that way to sand I mean so disordered, confused,
Speaker 1: almost what over sat down next to me. Next was
Speaker 1: my roommate. My roommate was going through divorce. He had
Speaker 1: two children. Most of his money was going to support
Speaker 1: those children. He was staying with me for a month
Speaker 1: or two, had been there already. He raised his right
Speaker 1: hand testify to tell the truth there in that court
Speaker 1: of law, and sat down and answered my attorney's questions.
Speaker 1: And then here come no Lee began to cross examine him.
Speaker 1: Stirred there in front of a minute with his arms
Speaker 1: cross said, now you know Ray Crown a long time,
Speaker 1: haven't you my friend? Steve said, yes, that's right, it's
Speaker 1: been twelve years since we were near forced together. And
Speaker 1: then the prosecutre setting Ray Crown has always been a
Speaker 1: good friend to you. I've been there times in need,
Speaker 1: times of trouble, looked out for you, helped you out.
Speaker 1: In fact, he's even given you a place to live
Speaker 1: right now, isn't he? My friends to He kind of straight?
Speaker 1: And I said, yes, that's right, that's the kind of
Speaker 1: guy where he is. And then the prosecutor lean right
Speaker 1: over the space point to figure out and said, and
Speaker 1: you'd lie for him, wound you and turned and walked
Speaker 1: away and sat down. Later on a closing arguments, he
Speaker 1: told the jury disregard with friend, a man who raises
Speaker 1: right hand to serve the United States Air Force, a
Speaker 1: man who raises right hand to tell his truth in
Speaker 1: the court of law. They told that jury to disregard
Speaker 1: his testimony because he's just there to protect me and
Speaker 1: will say anything. And took the jury just three and
Speaker 1: a half hours to come back and find me guilty
Speaker 1: and murder and kidnapping. So now you go back for sentencing,
Speaker 1: and you would not have seemed to be a likely
Speaker 1: candidate to get the death penalty, especially with your background.
Speaker 1: But in fact that's what happened. To sit there and
Speaker 1: going through a mini trial with the call an aggravating
Speaker 1: mitigating hearing, and again this is their go to big
Speaker 1: tough guy prosecutor before a judge. It was an ex
Speaker 1: prosecutor response for a half a dozen people in the
Speaker 1: death row already and to sit through this the first
Speaker 1: part of the aggravating part by the prosecution where they
Speaker 1: have to argue why this is above and beyond the norm.
Speaker 1: For the worst of the worst, you have to have
Speaker 1: aggravated factors, at least one to get a death sense.
Speaker 1: They used the bike mark said it was gratuitous violent
Speaker 1: successive pain and suffering on a soft tissue, or whought
Speaker 1: she was still alive, the pain and suffering she must
Speaker 1: have went through. Or because they're great at covering any
Speaker 1: possibilities and all their bases, and he said, or it
Speaker 1: was after she was already dead. That's heinous, and the
Speaker 1: prey that's tampering with dead body. That's just sick. And
Speaker 1: it's all his suppositions. He don't know what happened, but
Speaker 1: he even had a dress dummy up there showing how
Speaker 1: this was hacked and this was cut, and how she
Speaker 1: was been I mean very very powerful. And then of
Speaker 1: course came the defense is turned to put on the mitigating. Well,
Speaker 1: how do you mitigate something you didn't do? How do
Speaker 1: you show remorse regret for an act you never committed.
Speaker 1: I told me, turn, I got nothing to apologize for.
Speaker 1: I didn't kill it. They got the wrong person. And
Speaker 1: he said, well, we'll put your family, your friends, or
Speaker 1: we can have them testify to your good behavior background.
Speaker 1: I said, you're not putting my family, my people that
Speaker 1: I know on that standard be cross examined by that prosecutor.
Speaker 1: I said, no way, it's not gonna happen. And he said,
Speaker 1: we have to tell the judge that right. Well, so
Speaker 1: I did, and I was probably calling an own remorseful
Speaker 1: killer a horrible monster, and was sentenced to death. This
Speaker 1: episode is underwritten by A i G, a leading global
Speaker 1: insurance company, and by Accenture, a global professional services company
Speaker 1: with leading capabilities in digital, cloud and security. Working to
Speaker 1: reform the criminal justice system is a key pillar of
Speaker 1: the A i G Pro Bono Program, which provides free
Speaker 1: legal services and other support to many nonprofit organizations. And
Speaker 1: individuals most in need as part of Accenture's commitment to
Speaker 1: racial and civil justice. Accenture's Legal Access Program provides pro
Speaker 1: bono legal services in partnership with more than forty organizations,
Speaker 1: bringing meaningful change to people and communities worldwide. Within a
Speaker 1: week's time, I was transported by a bus straight to
Speaker 1: the death Row in Arizona. That's just about a five
Speaker 1: by seven center block Walt cell had still bars on
Speaker 1: the front side where the door was. There was a
Speaker 1: little trapped there. That's where they fed you through, put
Speaker 1: the bail through. I can tell you I never got
Speaker 1: to hot me on death Row, or mules sat in
Speaker 1: the hallway, so they felt like feeding this. I got
Speaker 1: to one sheet, one towel, one army blanket. There was
Speaker 1: a subment slab that had a about a two inch
Speaker 1: pad on it. I wrapped my sneakers in my towel.
Speaker 1: That was my pillow, and that's where I was to
Speaker 1: live now until they decided when I was going to
Speaker 1: die again. My friends and family believed to me, supported me,
Speaker 1: but I knew this cell and death Row was going
Speaker 1: to be my home for quite a while. And I'm
Speaker 1: gonna have to learn a survivement here and learn what
Speaker 1: I can about the system to prepare myself for what
Speaker 1: I need to know to fight it in the future
Speaker 1: if I ever had that chance again. And you did
Speaker 1: get that chance again because the Arizona Supreme Court overturned
Speaker 1: your conviction on direct appeal. I mean, it's a freaking miracle, right,
Speaker 1: And how did that miracle come to pass? Well, they
Speaker 1: still had law library then, and so I started going
Speaker 1: and reading the law books. I actually became a legal
Speaker 1: representative to help other inmates there in prison, both on
Speaker 1: their cases or with the disparayer issues. So I learned
Speaker 1: a little bit about how that works most states whenever
Speaker 1: you're sentenced to death and automatically goes direct appeal to
Speaker 1: that state supreme court. And in my case, I have
Speaker 1: to say, God bless my worthless attorney. He actually did
Speaker 1: something worthwhile right before our trial was to start, and
Speaker 1: he was on a Friday and trial started Monday. We
Speaker 1: were taken into the courtroom there in the prosecution introduced
Speaker 1: a videotape made by their bite mark expert, about forty
Speaker 1: minutes long, about how he conclusively matched my teeth using
Speaker 1: the latest techniques to these bite marks on her body,
Speaker 1: very impressive, very powerful evidence, and my attorney was awake,
Speaker 1: he was actually paying attention. He said, your honor, I've
Speaker 1: never seen this evidence before. You can't allow this in.
Speaker 1: At the last moment, the judge said, Dina, and I'm
Speaker 1: gonna allow this in. He said, you got the weekend
Speaker 1: to consult with this expert. And then in the burst
Speaker 1: of brilliance, we actually said you're honor and lighted that ruling.
Speaker 1: If you're gonna allow that evidence, and I'm gonna have
Speaker 1: to ask for a thirty day continues. I am not
Speaker 1: prepared for this evidence. I need thirty more days. And
Speaker 1: as I said, the judge consistent, he was an ex
Speaker 1: prosecutor at people on death row. He said, denied, He said,
Speaker 1: we need to get this trial rolling. So just seven
Speaker 1: months from the murder, he needed to get the trial rolling.
Speaker 1: The Arizonas were Supreme Court reviewed the issue for what
Speaker 1: it was. They said my attorney was well within the
Speaker 1: rights for asked for a continuance. They said the judge
Speaker 1: was wrong for allowing that in at the last moment.
Speaker 1: As a defendant, you have a right to know what
Speaker 1: Evan is going to be used against you. You have
Speaker 1: a right to receive that in a timely manner. But
Speaker 1: just because there's a mistake of technicality and air made
Speaker 1: does not mean you walk free. There's two parts to it,
Speaker 1: and the second part is called harmless error evaluation, and
Speaker 1: this is where they review this piece of evidence, this emission,
Speaker 1: this error, whether or not it would affect the verdict,
Speaker 1: Would the jury even cared? Did this matter? And the
Speaker 1: exact words were without this videotape, there wasn't even a
Speaker 1: jury submissible case against Mr Crone. They recognized this was
Speaker 1: about a bite mark, that this was critical evidence. The
Speaker 1: judge was wrong, and they ordered a new trial. And
Speaker 1: you were lucky enough to have a strong family support
Speaker 1: system throughout your fight. What did they do to help
Speaker 1: in the lead up to your second trial? And so
Speaker 1: God bless him. They mortgaged their house, They cashed him
Speaker 1: with retirement funds. There was different people that gave their
Speaker 1: income tax returned money to my family. And I had
Speaker 1: a second cousin out in California. He was reasonably well
Speaker 1: off and he'd heard about this from his mother and
Speaker 1: he was dumbfound was like, what kind of family come
Speaker 1: from with a murderer on death row? And that he
Speaker 1: was intrigued. He came to visit me on death row
Speaker 1: and talk with me, and when he was done, he said,
Speaker 1: something doesn't sound right here. And he became a real
Speaker 1: champion for the fight for my innocence. And he knew
Speaker 1: attorney out of California from talking through him. The attorney said,
Speaker 1: let me take the case. We couldn't come near the
Speaker 1: hundreds of thousands of dollars required, but he said, just
Speaker 1: paid the expenses. I believe in raid this case is
Speaker 1: no good. Let me take the case. And so now
Speaker 1: we had a person very experienced attorney. When he showed
Speaker 1: up for that trial, I mean he had books and
Speaker 1: books about it. Stuffing he had found out that we
Speaker 1: never knew about in our first draft, Things that they
Speaker 1: had done with everything from even blood sampling and testing
Speaker 1: and stuff that we never knew had been done. More
Speaker 1: about footprints and fingerprints that had been found that we
Speaker 1: never knew about. And all this stuff was coming out
Speaker 1: at our second trial. And when that second trial's family
Speaker 1: started in February of nineteen, it lasted over seven weeks.
Speaker 1: Over five exhibits were introduced. We had three bite mark
Speaker 1: experts tests for the defense alone. It was a whole
Speaker 1: different scenario now, and it was starting to feel good
Speaker 1: about the truth was coming out at this trial. Yep.
Speaker 1: And the truth sure did come out all right. So
Speaker 1: you had DNA testing done on the saliva from the
Speaker 1: bite mark that identified a different contributor, confirming that it
Speaker 1: belonged neither to you nor the victim. So I think
Speaker 1: now everybody is probably on the edge of their seats
Speaker 1: going okay, So now comes the happy ending, right you think,
Speaker 1: I mean, my family friend, we all had reason to
Speaker 1: be very optimistic. Now. The prosecutor, right before they went out,
Speaker 1: and that prosecutor stood before that jury for closing arguments,
Speaker 1: told him to ignore that DNA disregard at day and
Speaker 1: he said that DNA is easier to explain. She's a
Speaker 1: way atress, she's a bartender, she handles glasses all day long.
Speaker 1: That was just transferred there by accident from somebody else.
Speaker 1: He said, we know from the bike mark who did this,
Speaker 1: and you're response will see that justice has done for
Speaker 1: the victims family. And this is his best prosecutor tone, kindness, consoling,
Speaker 1: trust me voice that he's telling this jury that right
Speaker 1: before they go out to deliberate. And the jury goes
Speaker 1: out after all that time and come back and find
Speaker 1: me guilty again. Everything just froze for me. I see
Speaker 1: the jurors wiping tears out of their eyes, their head down,
Speaker 1: they don't want to look at me. My attorney's hanging
Speaker 1: on my shoulder, saying, I can't believe this. Why don't
Speaker 1: they see the truth? Don't worry. I'm with you to
Speaker 1: the end. And I look over the prosecution side and
Speaker 1: they're all jumping up and down and celebrating like the
Speaker 1: one the big ball game. And I could think, is
Speaker 1: whobe stop rewind us though this can't be. Is no,
Speaker 1: It's not possible. But that lasted just seconds because I
Speaker 1: was brought right back to the reality because I heard
Speaker 1: the most horrible scream, this moan and wailing from my
Speaker 1: mom and sister not five feet behind me. To turn
Speaker 1: around and see the look in their eye, the tears
Speaker 1: holding their face, and I'd say, Mom, don't cry, aby,
Speaker 1: my little sister, Aby, It'll be all right. Don't worry.
Speaker 1: I'll be okay. You couldn't believe this, what happened? How
Speaker 1: could this be? It's not possible. But there I was
Speaker 1: felt guilty again Jesus, So they bought that nonsense about
Speaker 1: the transfer saliva from glassware. But luckily the judge had
Speaker 1: his doubts. And when it comes to the Aggravation and
Speaker 1: Mitigation hearing for your sentencing, your attorney, Chris Plored, spent
Speaker 1: two hours demonstrating how all of the pieces of evidence
Speaker 1: pointed to somebody else, how police were able to get
Speaker 1: footprints at the scene of the crime and were able
Speaker 1: to match them to actual shoes size nine and a half. Converse,
Speaker 1: but you wear a size eleven, right, That bigger prints
Speaker 1: and palm prints found in the bathroom didn't match you,
Speaker 1: That hair found on the victim's body, that salive ry
Speaker 1: DNA didn't match you. And all of this made such
Speaker 1: an impression on the judge, Superior Court Judge James McDougall,
Speaker 1: that he said, quote the court is left with a
Speaker 1: residual or lingering doubt about the clear identity of the killer.
Speaker 1: This is one of those cases that will haunt me
Speaker 1: for the rest of my life, wondering whether I have
Speaker 1: done the right thing. End quote. Wow, I mean he
Speaker 1: still had to sentence you, but he was definitely not
Speaker 1: convinced beyond a reasonable doubt. And yeah, he sends me
Speaker 1: for the murg and then he went want to aggravate
Speaker 1: kidnapping and added on twenty one more so, I was
Speaker 1: actually facing forty six years in prison before I'd ever
Speaker 1: had an opportunity to get out. It was a death sentence.
Speaker 1: I'd had to be eighty one years old to ever
Speaker 1: have my first shot at release. You don't live to
Speaker 1: be eighty one in our prisons. Very few people do,
Speaker 1: even on the outside of the life expectancies less than that.
Speaker 1: So now you're back to prison. And while it's not
Speaker 1: death row this time, as you said, it's still really
Speaker 1: a living death sentence. I mean, did you find a
Speaker 1: way to maintain hope at this point? Years go by,
Speaker 1: my appeals are turned down and said, no, this is
Speaker 1: a fair trial. There's nothing wrong with this trial yet.
Speaker 1: But I'm thinking, man, I'm gonna iron here. My family
Speaker 1: is still doing news. Letterday figured we gotta find out
Speaker 1: who did this is the only way we can get
Speaker 1: him out here. My cousin, Jim Ricks in California's working
Speaker 1: strenuously to find hiring people to investigate doing different things,
Speaker 1: and nothing's really panted out. And then in two thousand
Speaker 1: and one, Arizona State legislatures passed a new law allowing
Speaker 1: for post conviction relief DNA testing. Most states, you're only
Speaker 1: allowed a small window after your conviction to bring up
Speaker 1: new evidence. If you didn't bring it up a trial,
Speaker 1: it's very hard to ever bring it up again. But
Speaker 1: they recognized that DNA was too critical to definitive, too
Speaker 1: important to just ignore on a time restraint, and so
Speaker 1: they passed the new law allowing for post conviction relief
Speaker 1: on DNA material provided was previously on tested that would
Speaker 1: have direct bearing on guild or innocence, and that it
Speaker 1: was properly maintained. And I have to say God, bless you,
Speaker 1: thank you for Finish police department, because they kept the
Speaker 1: clothing in Kim's case, she had been stabbed with a
Speaker 1: big butcher knife from the kitchen through her clothing, which
Speaker 1: was then cut off with that butcher knife and thrown
Speaker 1: in the corner. She had been stabbed so forcibly with
Speaker 1: this butcher knife that had actually bent the blade, and
Speaker 1: my experts alve surmising there was a good chance to
Speaker 1: person willing that knife may have cut themselves, And so
Speaker 1: we were able to get a look at those clothing
Speaker 1: that they had kept preserved and stored and my journey
Speaker 1: was able to see that there was blood on her
Speaker 1: pants on her underwear. Meanwhile, I was visited by a
Speaker 1: man named Alan Simpson and investigator Tom Street wanted to
Speaker 1: know if I would like them to represent me. I'm like,
Speaker 1: I have no money. No, no, that's not what we're
Speaker 1: talking about. We want to represent you in this case
Speaker 1: and have this post conviction with the DNA testing done,
Speaker 1: so I can't pay you anything. For about five minutes,
Speaker 1: I can, I can't pay you. They've only got to
Speaker 1: the point. That's not what it mattered to them. They
Speaker 1: wanted to represent me. They believe in my innocence, and
Speaker 1: they went in petition to courts under that new law
Speaker 1: to have DNA testing done on that pants and underwear
Speaker 1: that they had found some type of a staining. That
Speaker 1: testing was now being done and started in October. We
Speaker 1: were told it would take sixty eight weeks. October went
Speaker 1: by November, went by December, went by January, went by,
Speaker 1: still no results. I'm waiting. I'm anxious. Ended up. It
Speaker 1: turned out that they actually had results back when it
Speaker 1: came back with a match to a another man that
Speaker 1: was currently serving at ten year since for sexual assaulting
Speaker 1: a child. It came back three or four times the
Speaker 1: prosecution to have the rerun and rerun it and rerun it.
Speaker 1: And it's important that we mentioned that this man who
Speaker 1: the DANNA actually matched was a guy named Kenneth Phillips, right,
Speaker 1: And as you said, this was a guy who was
Speaker 1: at that time incarcerated for sexually assaulting and choking a
Speaker 1: seven year old girl. It's unreal and at the time
Speaker 1: of the murder, he was not only on probation for
Speaker 1: breaking into a neighboring woman's apartment and choking her while
Speaker 1: threatening to kill her, but he was also living just
Speaker 1: six hundred yards away from the CBS lounge where the
Speaker 1: victim was killed. So it's horrible to think that this
Speaker 1: horrendous ordeal that you went through, and the one suffered
Speaker 1: by that poor little child, could have been avoided entirely.
Speaker 1: Unfortunately that was not the case, and it took all
Speaker 1: of those years later and these critical DNA test results.
Speaker 1: Vally was leaked at that DNA results were back and
Speaker 1: then had matched another person. Things happened very quickly. Then
Speaker 1: on April eight, I was called over to the counselor's office.
Speaker 1: He said, no, your turneys on the phone, and I
Speaker 1: got the phone and it was Alan. He said, Ray,
Speaker 1: how are you doing today? I said, fine, just in
Speaker 1: their day in paradise. He laughed. He said, what do
Speaker 1: you want to want to eat? I said, well, what
Speaker 1: are you talking about? It? Whenever in the child He goes, no, no, no,
Speaker 1: what do you wanted? Steak, seafood e, a good food
Speaker 1: of beer? What would you like? Ray? I said, Alan,
Speaker 1: what the devil are you talking about? He said, I
Speaker 1: just got off the phone with the prosecutor's office. They
Speaker 1: just got back from the judges chambers. They're cutting the paperwork.
Speaker 1: You're coming home the day and I just what did
Speaker 1: you say? He said, roll up, Ray, it's all over.
Speaker 1: You're coming home. And I looked at the counselor and
Speaker 1: I gave him the phone and he had hung it up,
Speaker 1: and well, his phone rang right away and he picked yes, sir, right,
Speaker 1: he's right here. Yes, his eyes are getting big, Yes, sir,
Speaker 1: I'll have a done. Yes, absolutely, I'll take care of it.
Speaker 1: Said that was the ward. He said, you need to
Speaker 1: come back and roll your stuff up. You're being released,
Speaker 1: Mr Crone. I walked out of that president about three
Speaker 1: hours later, look at were my shoulder and wonder what
Speaker 1: the devil are they up to this time? Because they
Speaker 1: never accepted by innocence, they never belied what I said.
Speaker 1: And now just like that one day and back in
Speaker 1: December thirty one, it was when I woke up at
Speaker 1: my house and that evening I went to sleep in
Speaker 1: the jail. So that morning I woke up in a
Speaker 1: prison cell and went home to sleep. But I was
Speaker 1: released and my attorney, Chris Plord came from over in California.
Speaker 1: He picked me up and drove me off that day
Speaker 1: to escort me off to start my life all over
Speaker 1: again at the age of forty, after ten years, three months,
Speaker 1: and eight days, to reunite with my family and friends,
Speaker 1: with the distinction of being the one another person in
Speaker 1: America to have been convicted of a capital murder since
Speaker 1: to death and later to be free, to be exonerated,
Speaker 1: to be proven innocent. Wow. You know, it's really such
Speaker 1: an inspiring story with a lot of villains, but you know,
Speaker 1: when you think about it, there are even more heroes
Speaker 1: than villains, Like you're a pallet attorney Chris Plored. You know,
Speaker 1: hearing his name reminds me of a story I heard
Speaker 1: about a sting that was done to expose the notorious
Speaker 1: bite Mark Charlotte and Michael West at Mississippi. And in
Speaker 1: that sting, Michael West was given a set of dental
Speaker 1: molds that he was told belonged to a suspect in
Speaker 1: some crime or other. But it turned out that the
Speaker 1: dental molds we're actually the ones belonging to the investigator
Speaker 1: who was part of this sting. And of course, this
Speaker 1: freaking numb nuts West identifies the dental molds as those
Speaker 1: belonging to the culprit in this fake case, thereby exposing
Speaker 1: himself as just one of many frauds in this field.
Speaker 1: It was my cousin's dentition that was sent to Dr
Speaker 1: West out there in Mississippi with using the picture that
Speaker 1: was the bike mark on the breast is saying that
Speaker 1: it was actually a child abuse case and could he
Speaker 1: be of any help whether or not this was a suspect,
Speaker 1: And could you identify that West West identified my cousin's
Speaker 1: teeth is making the mark that I was convicted of making.
Speaker 1: Wait wait what it was my cousin's teeth Jim Rick's teeth.
Speaker 1: That's amazing, And oh man, I mean, speaking of frauds,
Speaker 1: what about Ray Rosen, expert in New York case? Was
Speaker 1: he ever exposed? What ended up happened? It turned out
Speaker 1: that Ray Rosen was I almost say outcast, but he
Speaker 1: was certainly chastised by the rest of the people in
Speaker 1: his profession and knew they all could point quick fingers
Speaker 1: at where he's wrong, saying, why are you're doing this?
Speaker 1: You know you're wrong. And he actually resigned from the
Speaker 1: dental school after my release. I couldn't sue him because
Speaker 1: he was protected under immunity from the prosecutor, but he
Speaker 1: did resign his post at the dental school. He also
Speaker 1: lost his re election as senator. But yeah, Ray Rosen
Speaker 1: held on to the end when all the other experts
Speaker 1: said you're wrong, why you're doing this? And we actually
Speaker 1: had him on tape for the lawsuit if we could
Speaker 1: have went after saying I'm just in too deep to
Speaker 1: back out now. So what kind of system do we
Speaker 1: have that allows people like that to get paid exorbitant
Speaker 1: amount of money to testify to something that that they
Speaker 1: weren't even sure of, but they're in too deep to
Speaker 1: back up and admit they were wrong. Walking out that
Speaker 1: gate that day, being number one hundred. There was notoriety
Speaker 1: or one hundred was a special number. There was a
Speaker 1: number events that went on around the country for that moustone,
Speaker 1: and there was the media outside my gate, just want
Speaker 1: to talk to me, see what it is like and
Speaker 1: what are you gonna do now? How does it feel?
Speaker 1: And I talked about how my family and friends had
Speaker 1: stood by, how I read the Bible front to back
Speaker 1: three and a half times during those ten years, and
Speaker 1: step with it under my pillow and reported back and
Speaker 1: raised his hand. He said, well, Mr Crone, given your
Speaker 1: faith in God, how do you justify him leaving you
Speaker 1: in prison for ten years? So? I thought, what how
Speaker 1: do I justify God leaving me in prison for ten years?
Speaker 1: How do you answer a deep soul surging question like that.
Speaker 1: I mean, the prison is right behind me. I've been
Speaker 1: out five minutes, and I'm dumbfounded. I'm frozen under. And
Speaker 1: then all of a suddenly something shot in my head.
Speaker 1: I said, well, you know, maybe it's not about those
Speaker 1: ten years I spent prison. Maybe it's about what I
Speaker 1: have to do the next ten years. I took three
Speaker 1: weeks to go back before a judge, at which point
Speaker 1: the judge ordered a new trial, and that's when the
Speaker 1: prosecution stepped forward and said they were dropping charges with prejudice,
Speaker 1: meaning that could never be tried again. And at that
Speaker 1: point said Mr cron, you're free to go. Good luck
Speaker 1: that time to think maybe there was a reason that
Speaker 1: somebody like me had to go through this, because again,
Speaker 1: if they can put me on death throw, anybody is
Speaker 1: acceptable almost to that. And and so I shared my
Speaker 1: story in my background and at the time, as sister
Speaker 1: Helen was fighting her own war so to speak against
Speaker 1: the death penny, she had an idea about what better
Speaker 1: way to talk about the death penalty and how wrong
Speaker 1: it is and to have somebody that was innocently convicted
Speaker 1: of it. And I was asked if I would come
Speaker 1: on board to share my story. She was out of
Speaker 1: New Orleans at a time at last probably good six
Speaker 1: months almost a year, and as anything funny gets difficult
Speaker 1: to have and it was fairally folded up. Years later,
Speaker 1: a man, Kurt Rosenberg, out of Philadelphia had contact her
Speaker 1: sister Helen and said, I'd like to resurrect witness innocence
Speaker 1: with your blessings, with your approval, and she said yes absolutely.
Speaker 1: He had contacted another man he knew there in Philadelphia.
Speaker 1: That was grant writer Terry Rumsey. And then I was
Speaker 1: contacted to resurrect Witness Innocence and between the three I
Speaker 1: was then we ended up drawing up a nonprofit organization
Speaker 1: US to five or one three c. We got our
Speaker 1: LLLC and we started Witness Citizens and I believe that
Speaker 1: was around two thousand and five, somewhere in there. And
Speaker 1: since then we've grown it now to a staff of
Speaker 1: five or six at least paid staff, over thirty some
Speaker 1: members that are active. But we share our stories around
Speaker 1: the country. We've spoken all the states that have at
Speaker 1: least the death pilling. Our people have come and shared
Speaker 1: their stories, both men and women who like me, were
Speaker 1: wrong to convicted, who walked out, walk on death throw
Speaker 1: who were facing possible execution, and later, by the grace
Speaker 1: of God and good fortune and the hard work of others,
Speaker 1: including Innocence projects and justice projects around the country, that
Speaker 1: we're able to get our freedom and now use our
Speaker 1: voice to say what is wrong and how we can
Speaker 1: abolish the death puty and fix certain other aspects of
Speaker 1: our justice is um that have continued to malfunction and
Speaker 1: result in wrongful convictions, of innocent people. Amen to that,
Speaker 1: and I hope people will go to the website, of course,
Speaker 1: it's Witnessed to Innocence dot org. Now we have a
Speaker 1: tradition here at Lawful Conviction. It's called closing our aments
Speaker 1: and it works very simply. Again, I thank you Ray
Speaker 1: for being such a great leader and just an inspiring
Speaker 1: guy for so many of us, a hero for so
Speaker 1: many of us, including myself, and for being here on
Speaker 1: the show. And then what happens now is I turned
Speaker 1: my microphone off, kicked back in my chair, leave my
Speaker 1: headphones on, and just listen as you share with our
Speaker 1: audience anything else you may want to say. The microphone
Speaker 1: is yours, Ray Crowne. Closing arguments. Thank you for that opportunity. Actually,
Speaker 1: and I'd like to share two things. Twice of those trials,
Speaker 1: Kim's mom, a wonderful lady, bath with adamants and anger,
Speaker 1: denounced me and victims impact statements, and rightfully so, she
Speaker 1: thought I killed her daughter. But that day came when
Speaker 1: I had to go before that judge, as I said,
Speaker 1: for that new trial, and the charges were dropping. The
Speaker 1: judge bank again with Mr Crone, You're free to go.
Speaker 1: I noticed Kim's mom, and the crowd is mostly all
Speaker 1: my friends and family members. But she had come walking
Speaker 1: up a frail lady. Now after almost ten years or so,
Speaker 1: she'd been through this, come up walking on a cane, said,
Speaker 1: almost in tears to Mr Crone, I'm so sorry for
Speaker 1: what happened to you. I know what it's like to
Speaker 1: lose a loved one. I lost my daughter, your mom
Speaker 1: lost you for ten years. She said, Please forgive me.
Speaker 1: I just believe what they told me. And I said, ma'am,
Speaker 1: your apologies certainly accepted. It's not necessary. I can understand
Speaker 1: your anger at me and thinking I'd killed your daughter.
Speaker 1: I did not kill your daughter. I thank you for
Speaker 1: coming up to me, I said, And now is my
Speaker 1: first opportunity to actually offer you my condolences. I only
Speaker 1: knew your lovely daughter for a few months, but she
Speaker 1: seemed like a very nice and special person. But there
Speaker 1: it was a system. Wasn't just doing it to my
Speaker 1: famous system had done it to her family now too.
Speaker 1: She was at that point was actually looking at the
Speaker 1: possibility happened to go back to trial again. See all
Speaker 1: the brutal pictures at the prosecutional show of her daughter
Speaker 1: again and had to sit through that testimony. They were
Speaker 1: doing it to her too, and she said, I just
Speaker 1: believe they told me. And I wish some of the
Speaker 1: good fortune that I've had in my case could be
Speaker 1: blessed on all those other ones, those moms and those daughters,
Speaker 1: those sisters, those wives that are fighting for their husband,
Speaker 1: their loved one right now, who totally believe in their innocence.
Speaker 1: So I just want those folks that might be listening
Speaker 1: that are struggling with their own case right now, to
Speaker 1: keep that faith alive, to keep that over and know
Speaker 1: that people do care about you. While we might not
Speaker 1: know you personally, we know of your hardships, we know
Speaker 1: of the struggles, and we have people like you is
Speaker 1: putting this on the air, doing podcasts and showing the errors,
Speaker 1: mistakes and fighting for that justice system that we could
Speaker 1: all be proud of and trust. Thank you for listening
Speaker 1: to Wrongful Conviction. Please support your local innocence organizations and
Speaker 1: go to the links in our bio to see how
Speaker 1: you can help. I'd like to thank our production team
Speaker 1: Connor Hall, Justin Golden, Jeff Clyburne, and Kevin Wardis. The
Speaker 1: music on this show, as always is by three time
Speaker 1: OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us
Speaker 1: on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction, on Twitter at wrong Conviction,
Speaker 1: and on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast. Wrongful Conviction is
Speaker 1: a production of Lava for Good Podcasts in association with
Speaker 1: Signal Company Number one h