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Speaker 1: I started to realize that not being an expert isn't

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Speaker 1: a liability.

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Speaker 2: It's a real guest.

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Speaker 3: If we don't know something about ourselves at this point

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Speaker 3: in our life, it's probably because it's uncomfortable to know.

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Speaker 4: If you can die before you die, then you can

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Speaker 4: really live.

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Speaker 2: There's a wisdom at death's door.

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Speaker 3: I thought I was insane. Yeah, and I didn't know

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Speaker 3: what to do because there was no internet. I don't know, man,

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Speaker 3: I'm like, I feel like everything is hard.

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Speaker 1: Hey, y'all, my name is Kat. I'm a human first

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Speaker 1: and a licensed therapist second. And right now I'm inviting

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Speaker 1: you into conversations that I hope encourage you to become

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Speaker 1: more curious and less judgmental about yourself, others, and.

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Speaker 3: The world around you.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to You Need Therapy, Hi, guys, and welcome to

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Speaker 1: You Need Therapy Podcast.

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Speaker 3: My name is Kat, and I am the host.

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Speaker 2: Here.

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Speaker 1: Quick reminder up top that although this is a podcast

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Speaker 1: about mental health, and although I am a licensed therapist,

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Speaker 1: this podcast does not serve as a replacement or a

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Speaker 1: substitute for actual mental health services. However, we do hope

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Speaker 1: that these conversations help you on whatever journey you are on.

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Speaker 3: In some way.

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Speaker 1: Now for the good stuff. I am so excited about

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Speaker 1: our guest today. His name is Jp Sachs, and if

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Speaker 1: you are not familiar with him, then I can't wait

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Speaker 1: for you to get familiar with him, because he's awesome

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Speaker 1: in multiple different ways. I am a big fan of

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Speaker 1: his music, and that actually led me to wanting him

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Speaker 1: to come be a guest on the show because of

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Speaker 1: some of the things he sings and writes about. I'm like,

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Speaker 1: this guy has some things to say, and I have

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Speaker 1: some questions and I want to learn more. And I

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Speaker 1: just assumed he would have a cool perspective, of which

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Speaker 1: I was right. And I'm just so super grateful that

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Speaker 1: he accepted and was willing to come and chat with

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Speaker 1: a random person he doesn't know that lives across the country.

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Speaker 1: So you could google Jp and you can see his accomplishments.

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Speaker 1: You can see that he is a Grammy nominated singer songwriter.

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Speaker 1: He is very successful in what he does. But what

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Speaker 1: you can't google as easily. You know, you might read

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Speaker 1: this in some interviews or something like that, but well,

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Speaker 1: you can't google as easily is the essence of who

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Speaker 1: he is and the kind of human he is. And

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Speaker 1: he is a pretty cool human and you will see

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Speaker 1: that and hear that and feel that as you listen

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Speaker 1: to this conversation. I was unsure on how the conversation

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Speaker 1: would go, because you know, I'd never met him before.

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Speaker 3: I had a note mood he would be in. I

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Speaker 3: don't know if he really wanted to have this conversation.

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Speaker 1: You never know, and I was so pleasantly surprised by

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Speaker 1: how he showed up and what he showed up with.

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Speaker 1: We talk about relationships, we talk about feelings, We talked

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Speaker 1: about masculinity, We talked about the difference between leaving and

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Speaker 1: being left in the different ways we try to get

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Speaker 1: over heartbreak. And he just had some really cool perspectives.

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Speaker 1: He says some things that you are going to want

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Speaker 1: to write down and you're going to want to journal about,

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Speaker 1: and you're gonna want to marinate over them because he offers,

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Speaker 1: like I said, a really cool perspective that you don't

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Speaker 1: hear as much in multiple different areas of life that

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Speaker 1: I believe, I think is going to be really like

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Speaker 1: priceless and special for a lot of you guys. So

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Speaker 1: the other thing is because I am who I am,

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Speaker 1: This conversation went over about forty minutes, and I'm not

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Speaker 1: mad about that because it was fruitful. And because of that,

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Speaker 1: instead of chiseling it down and cutting things out, I

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Speaker 1: decided let's just keep it all and split it into

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Speaker 1: two parts. So this week you will hear part one,

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Speaker 1: and then I'm going to keep you on your toes

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Speaker 1: because I'm going to keep you excited for next week's episode,

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Speaker 1: and then next Monday we'll put part two out. Also

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Speaker 1: want to let you guys know that JP is releasing

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Speaker 1: a new song. So he just released a new song

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Speaker 1: called when You Think Of Me, and we talk about

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Speaker 1: that song and the meaning behind it in this conversation

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Speaker 1: and guys, this song is so good, so like, go download.

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Speaker 3: It right now.

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Speaker 1: But he's releasing another new song on November eleventh, called

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Speaker 1: The Good Parts and it should be available to pre

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Speaker 1: save by the time you were listening to this, which

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Speaker 1: is really exciting, So go follow him on Instagram at

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Speaker 1: JP Sacks. I'll put a link in the bio for

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Speaker 1: you guys. And if you guys have not heard his

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Speaker 1: music before, you're welcome, because this is going to be

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Speaker 1: your new obsession. And if you have heard of him

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Speaker 1: before or you are a fan, get excited because there's

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Speaker 1: some new music continuing to come. Now, I'm not going

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Speaker 1: to keep you waiting any longer. Well, I kind of

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Speaker 1: him because I'm cutting this conversation to two parts. But

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Speaker 1: for this part of the conversation, I'm not going to

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Speaker 1: keep you any longer. So here is my conversation with

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Speaker 1: JP Sacks. Do you enjoy conversations with strangers?

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Speaker 2: Yes, you do?

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Speaker 3: Okay? Would you say you're introverted or extroverted?

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Speaker 1: So?

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Speaker 4: I thought I was an introvert for a really long time,

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Speaker 4: and it's potential it's possible that I was, but I'm

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Speaker 4: definitely not now, Okay. I think I'm pretty like pretty

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Speaker 4: far on the extrovert spectrum of things.

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Speaker 3: Do are you familiar with the enneagram?

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Speaker 2: Yes?

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Speaker 3: What are the ones with the numbers or the numbers?

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Speaker 2: The numbers the numbers, I'm a two?

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Speaker 3: Okay, which ones too? Are the helper?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? That was me?

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Speaker 1: Okay, I'm a seven. So most people think that because

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Speaker 1: seven is the enthusiasts. Most people think that I'm an

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Speaker 1: extrovert because I do tend to have a lot of

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Speaker 1: energy and I can like talk to a wall. But

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Speaker 1: I actually am really introverted and like if I got

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Speaker 1: to choose, like I said, on any given night, I

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Speaker 1: would like to be in bed. I like being social,

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Speaker 1: but there's a certain type of work that comes with it.

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Speaker 3: So it's just very interesting.

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Speaker 1: Okay, I want to get into some things and we'll

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Speaker 1: just see where it goes. I don't know what they

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Speaker 1: tell you and you agree to do these things, but

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Speaker 1: I am a therapist.

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Speaker 3: I love in Nashville.

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Speaker 2: Cool.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so I start.

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Speaker 4: I was about to make a joke about how I

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Speaker 4: only hear about the enneagrams when I go to Nashville.

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Speaker 3: Well, that makes a lot of sense. That makes a

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Speaker 3: lot of sense. It's like the Hub and I love

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Speaker 3: the inteagram. I think it's a great tool.

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Speaker 1: But in Nashville sometimes you're like, oh, okay, I'm done

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Speaker 1: with this conversation. And I don't know how many interviews

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Speaker 1: and podcasts you really like do in general. But I

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Speaker 1: don't also know how many you do that are mental

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Speaker 1: health focused. So I want to talk about your music

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Speaker 1: because I know who you are, because I love your music,

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Speaker 1: and that's one of the reasons I went to your

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Speaker 1: Is it like a single release show, the one that

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Speaker 1: you did in Nashville.

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Speaker 3: I loved there yeah, I was at that show.

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Speaker 2: That's fine.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and the real I got the idea to ask

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Speaker 1: you to be on the podcast because you saying, uh,

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Speaker 1: well want all of your musics. Is there's little like

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Speaker 1: weaves of just like little things. I'm like, he wants

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Speaker 1: a therapy, he has a therapist. He learned that there.

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Speaker 1: He likes mental health. But I think it was.

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Speaker 3: When you say explain you and you know the opening

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Speaker 3: life which.

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Speaker 2: I've I talked shit about that therapist.

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Speaker 4: But common misunderstanding in that song is the therapist mentioned

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Speaker 4: and explain to you was not the therapist I landed on.

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Speaker 1: That's interesting in that song is that like a you

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Speaker 1: don't like that therapist.

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Speaker 4: Well, so about four years ago I decided that I

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Speaker 4: wanted to have a go to therapist. I had gone

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Speaker 4: on and off throughout my life, but only in like

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Speaker 4: times of dire need. I had never like had a

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Speaker 4: consistent person who I had to establishrapport with. So yes,

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Speaker 4: this is twenty eighteen. I decided I was I was

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Speaker 4: going to find my go to therapist, and I went

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Speaker 4: to seven before I found one that I really liked.

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Speaker 1: Okay, you have got to talk about that process, because

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Speaker 1: that is something I think comes up a lot where

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Speaker 1: people think I go to a first therapist and I

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Speaker 1: have to stick with them, or this therapist sucks.

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Speaker 3: I'm with therapy, right.

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Speaker 4: I was adamant that I was going to have a

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Speaker 4: therapist in my life that knew me, that I respected,

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Speaker 4: and that I was actually going to listen to and

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Speaker 4: walk away with things that were improving, you know, my

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Speaker 4: process of analyzing my life. So that was an interesting

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Speaker 4: couple months because I was like twice a week going

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Speaker 4: to different therapists trying to find the right one. And

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Speaker 4: the therapist that I mentioned in Explain You, the first

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Speaker 4: line of that song for your listeners and I have

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Speaker 4: not heard it is my therapist called you a learning

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Speaker 4: experience one eighty an hour. That's all that he mentions.

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Speaker 4: Missing you is getting fucking expensive because I dropped a

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Speaker 4: lot of money on therapy that month.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I think is a lot of money.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean pretty standard out here.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I assume it's a little bit higher than Yeah.

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Speaker 4: So yeah, I think that was therapist number four who

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Speaker 4: had I had given him this whole story about what

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Speaker 4: I was trying to figure out about myself and you know,

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Speaker 4: understanding myself separate from someone who I had really rooted

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Speaker 4: my identity and being beside, and he just goes, what

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Speaker 4: it sounds like, It sounds like she was a learning

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Speaker 4: experience and then just kind of looks at me and

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Speaker 4: I thought that that can't be. That can't be how

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Speaker 4: this is supposed to go. And I thought it was

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Speaker 4: really funny. So I did not see that therapist again.

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Speaker 4: But that's who I'm talking about in that song.

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Speaker 1: I'm so glad I have that, like that knowledge now

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Speaker 1: because I now hear that song differently because I can

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Speaker 1: see how somebody might say that. But if that's the

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Speaker 1: only feedback you're getting from a therapist, you're like, well, okay,

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Speaker 1: what is the learning experience?

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Speaker 3: I need more?

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Speaker 1: What part of you then was like, I have to

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Speaker 1: keep doing this work to find this person, And how

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Speaker 1: did you know when you found the right person?

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Speaker 4: So I think obviously a great therapist can meet someone

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Speaker 4: one time, yeah, and completely unravel everything about their life

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Speaker 4: and choices, and it's amazing when that happens. I love

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Speaker 4: listening to Esther Perel's podcast because I like hearing her

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Speaker 4: do that. But I also just think, if I need

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Speaker 4: to spend the first thirty minutes of a session explaining

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Speaker 4: the foundations at which I've arrived at this complicated traumatic moment.

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Speaker 4: I'm not getting nearly as much depth on how to

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Speaker 4: navigate it as if I've had, you know, fifty sessions.

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Speaker 2: Under my belt with my current therapist.

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Speaker 4: So when I walk in, we just you know, we

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Speaker 4: can skip the therapy small talk. And she also just

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Speaker 4: has such a better memory than I do, Like my

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Speaker 4: memory is just shit, just like really bad. I think

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Speaker 4: it's it's it's somewhat indicative of a lot of the

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Speaker 4: things about my life like that are like predicated on

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Speaker 4: me having such a bad memory that I do things

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Speaker 4: in order to try and create like try and create

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Speaker 4: memory or try and you know, establish.

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Speaker 2: Some sort of like just some sort.

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Speaker 4: Of immortalized version of things in order to feel like

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Speaker 4: they've actually happened.

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Speaker 2: Why journal so obsessively?

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Speaker 4: But anyway, she'll say, like, well, you know, last year

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Speaker 4: in this session, you were talking about blah blah blah blah,

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Speaker 4: and that feels like it probably relates to you right

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Speaker 4: now talking to blah blah blah blah. And those are

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Speaker 4: always like big win moments for my therapist. I think

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Speaker 4: I'm always deeply impressed.

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Speaker 1: Well, I think it sends the message because I am

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Speaker 1: a therapist who also goes to therapy, and so when

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Speaker 1: my own therapist can like pull some recall out to me.

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Speaker 3: I'm like, you listen to me.

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Speaker 1: And for a lot of people going to therapy, that's

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Speaker 1: like sometimes all they need is somebody that actually is

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Speaker 1: paying attention to them and their story. So I can

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Speaker 1: see how that, like it's a win for the therapist

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Speaker 1: because they're like, yeah, okay, I was able to put

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Speaker 1: that together, and then it's a win for the client

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Speaker 1: because they're like, oh my gosh, I'm not just like

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Speaker 1: another one of your people on your schedule, Like you're

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Speaker 1: paying attention to my story.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I actually have a question for you about this.

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Speaker 4: So you know, because my music, you know, deals with

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Speaker 4: the emotional elements of being a human, I do get

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Speaker 4: asked questions often that I feel entirely unqualified for, just

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Speaker 4: questions that you would ask a therapist, like people, whether

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Speaker 4: it be about because you know, I write about I

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Speaker 4: write about love, I write about heartbreak, I write about

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Speaker 4: green if I write about you know, things that people

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Speaker 4: often talk to that therapist about. And I used to

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Speaker 4: I used to be like a little bit glib about it.

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Speaker 4: You know, I would show supportas like I don't know,

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Speaker 4: I feel like I would say, like I feel really

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Speaker 4: unqualified for to answer that question, or you know, people

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Speaker 4: would be like, your music is like therapy, and I'm like,

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Speaker 4: that means the world to me, but also.

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Speaker 2: Like therapy is better, like a real therapy is better

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Speaker 2: used tod try that.

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Speaker 4: But then I sorry, I recognize that it was it

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Speaker 4: was somewhat inconsiderate of me to be suggesting a two

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Speaker 4: hundred dollars a week model of help when you know

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Speaker 4: music is for the most part free, and I was

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Speaker 4: I was neglecting to incorporate that into my thinking on it.

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Speaker 4: And it trips me up now because obviously, like I

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Speaker 4: want to be a proponent of therapy. I think it's

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Speaker 4: been such a huge part of my life, but it's

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Speaker 4: pretty inaccessible to most people. How do you navigate trying

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Speaker 4: to point people towards resources and things that can be

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Speaker 4: a helpful part of their mental health routines without you know,

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Speaker 4: running into the problem of a lot of the things

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Speaker 4: that are so helpful do require you know, a search.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, well, so you're that's a really actually a good

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Speaker 1: question because you're talking about, like, how do I not

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Speaker 1: like overstep and start speaking out of my lane, But

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Speaker 1: how do I not offer nothing?

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Speaker 3: And then how do I not offer something that somebody

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Speaker 3: doesn't have access to right exactly?

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Speaker 1: So that's one of the reasons I started this podcast.

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Speaker 1: Because I am a therapist that works private practice. I

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Speaker 1: don't take insurance like I have a sliding scale for

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Speaker 1: a certain number of clients. And at the same time,

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Speaker 1: I'm like, well, okay, this leaves a lot of people out.

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Speaker 1: And I have these conversations all day, all the time,

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Speaker 1: whether they're in my head or with the client about

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Speaker 1: things like attachment with Like three four years ago, nobody

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Speaker 1: knew what attachment theory was besides therapists. Now it's more

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Speaker 1: some people st don't know what it is, but it's

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Speaker 1: coming more mainstream. But people weren't having conversations about what

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Speaker 1: actually is the difference between like being sad and actually

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Speaker 1: being clinically depressed.

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Speaker 3: How do I know when how.

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Speaker 1: Do I find access to a psychiatrist that might be

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Speaker 1: able to help me and find things that are going

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Speaker 1: to help me maybe feel like.

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Speaker 3: A normal person. What is normal?

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Speaker 1: So that's one of the reasons I started this because

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Speaker 1: a lot of the conversations I have are like building

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Speaker 1: blocks for what you might actually do with the therapist later.

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Speaker 1: There's a lot of information, just conversations that generally aren't happening.

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Speaker 1: But I say this all the time. I work mostly

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Speaker 1: with eating disorders and body image. I see all kinds

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Speaker 1: of stuff, but I get a lot of people that

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Speaker 1: are coming for a very specific reason. I have an

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Speaker 1: eating disorder. I just I'm going through a breakup, I

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Speaker 1: moved to a new city, and I feel whatever. I

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Speaker 1: feel like I'm having a mid life all things. When

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Speaker 1: it comes down to it, I truly believe what we're

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Speaker 1: really searching for as a cure to some kind of

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Speaker 1: loneliness somewhere right, And the vice that might be the

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Speaker 1: eating disorder or the feeling of like deep sorrow, might

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Speaker 1: be that lack of connection that we're literally born like

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Speaker 1: we are born connected to our moms, so we're born

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Speaker 1: needing connection of some sort.

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Speaker 3: So when it comes down to.

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Speaker 1: It, we're all looking for a way to feel connected

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Speaker 1: to somebody to cure this loneliness. We're in, this loneliness eponemic.

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Speaker 1: Like not even talking about what COVID and all that

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Speaker 1: did to us. So I say all that because while

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Speaker 1: therapy is very helpful, I would never send the message

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Speaker 1: that somebody shouldn't go to therapy. It's not always the answer, right.

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Speaker 1: It could always be helpful, but it might not always

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Speaker 1: be necessary. It can help anybody. But also if we're

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Speaker 1: looking for a cure to loneliness, that is connection. And

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Speaker 1: so what we can offer people are resources that help

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Speaker 1: people connect to each other. What we can offer are

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Speaker 1: ways that we can feel less alone. Speaking of even

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Speaker 1: your music, something that it does and something that I've

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Speaker 1: felt through a lot of music is when you hear

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Speaker 1: a song, like if I hear a song about specifically heartbreak,

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Speaker 1: right when I hear somebody who had singing a song

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Speaker 1: that they wrote about heartbreak, what that tells me is

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Speaker 1: that wait a second, the only way that this person

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Speaker 1: knows how to write this is because it was in

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Speaker 1: their head, and the only reason was in their head

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Speaker 1: because somehow they experienced it, whether they saw it or

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Speaker 1: they lived it. And so that means that that person

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Speaker 1: has been through something that I've been through. I'm not

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Speaker 1: the only one. And if that person is surviving or

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Speaker 1: thriving whatever, that's giving me some kind of hope and

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Speaker 1: I'm feeling connected to another human, even if I'm not

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Speaker 1: like breathing the same air as you. So that's my

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Speaker 1: long winded way to answer that question is we want

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Speaker 1: to offer tangible things, but often offering and experience of

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Speaker 1: understanding is like the biggest thing.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean that makes perfect sense.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, when people do come to talk to you about relationships, well,

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Speaker 4: I'm sure it happens often because we spend most of

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Speaker 4: our time, at least the people around me spend a

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Speaker 4: lot of their time thinking about, you know, their relationships.

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Speaker 4: How often are people coming to you to help navigate

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Speaker 4: the emotions of being left versus the emotions of coming

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Speaker 4: to terms with leaving.

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Speaker 1: This is so interesting because I just recorded a conversation

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Speaker 1: about the difference between leaving an abandonment, because they are

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Speaker 1: very different things, being abandoned and being left.

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Speaker 3: But when you're asking me.

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Speaker 1: How often there's a difference, Well, I'll give you the

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Speaker 1: cliff notes version if you want to listen to the

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Speaker 1: whole episode. It came out on Monday, October twenty fourth,

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Speaker 1: and it is called The Difference Between Abuse, Abandonment and

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Speaker 1: Other Things with Tara Booker. But here's kind of a

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Speaker 1: cliff notes version for you now, so when I'm abandoned,

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Speaker 1: that means that, like a child is abandoned. If you're abandoned,

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Speaker 1: you're left and you're not able to survive. Right, So

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Speaker 1: people can leave me, but I'm still able to like

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Speaker 1: actually meet my needs.

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Speaker 3: So you can abandon a baby. You can abandon a child.

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Speaker 1: You can abandon somebody who actually doesn't have resources or

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Speaker 1: an ability to access resources. Think about any kind of

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Speaker 1: population that is just like disabled in any way, whether

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Speaker 1: that's financially, intellectually, like any kind you can abandon those people.

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Speaker 1: But if I'm a functioning adult, right, So, if my

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Speaker 1: boyfriend leaves me, if he breaks up with me, if

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Speaker 1: you're listening, please don't. But if he does that, he

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Speaker 1: is choosing to walk away and leave a relationship, and

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Speaker 1: that sucks, and that I'm going to feel like an

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Speaker 1: immense amount of pain, like an excruciating amount of pain.

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Speaker 3: But I'm an.

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Speaker 1: Adult, and that need that he might be fulfilling in me,

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Speaker 1: I have ability to access that somewhere else. It might

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Speaker 1: not feel like that at the time, right because talk

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Speaker 1: about like your head not being clear in the midst

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Speaker 1: of heartbreak, your head is not clear, so I might

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Speaker 1: not be able to actually rationalize that, and it might

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Speaker 1: feel like he abandoned me.

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Speaker 3: It might feel like.

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Speaker 1: I can't access my needs or I'm left without a paddle,

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Speaker 1: but he's leaving me because adults are left. And I

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Speaker 1: want to hear your thoughts on this. I think that's

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Speaker 1: really hard to come to terms with because when I'm abandoned,

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Speaker 1: I'm a victim. Right when I'm left, I just was

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Speaker 1: he left me. So when I'm abandoned, I'm telling myself

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Speaker 1: I don't have the ability to meet my needs, so

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Speaker 1: then I don't have to do the things that get

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Speaker 1: me to that next place, and those things are really hard,

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Speaker 1: Like healing heartbreak is one of the hardest things people

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Speaker 1: will do.

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Speaker 3: That was a long cliff notes.

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Speaker 4: No, No, I mean that's fascinating. I mean I've been

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Speaker 4: on both sides of it at the end of relationships. Yeah,

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Speaker 4: I've been in I would say three.

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Speaker 2: Series really in my life.

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Speaker 4: You know, the first one was seventeen to nineteen, So

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Speaker 4: I don't identify quite as much with that version of

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Speaker 4: myself as a relationship two and three. A relationship two

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Speaker 4: and three like ended, you know, one of them ended

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Speaker 4: where I was left, and one of them I left

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Speaker 4: and you know that Jonny Mitchell was on both sides. Now,

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Speaker 4: it's just like the ambivalence of that song. I found

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Speaker 4: myself thinking about a lot anyways. I understood things about

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Speaker 4: being left that I didn't understand until I was the.

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Speaker 3: One who left, Like what like that you.

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Speaker 4: Could still love somebody and also think it was the

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Speaker 4: right decision to leave a relationship, Like when you know,

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Speaker 4: when I was twenty four and that relationship ended and

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Speaker 4: she told me, she was like, I love you and

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Speaker 4: I will always love you, but I don't think the

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Speaker 4: lives that were moving into are.

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Speaker 2: Ones that were meant to be together.

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Speaker 4: And yeah, I don't remember exactly what she said because

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Speaker 4: I was fucking devastated, so I don't remember the exact words,

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Speaker 4: but something along those lines. But there was a lot

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Speaker 4: of like I love you and I will always love you,

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Speaker 4: and I think you're incredible, but I just don't I

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Speaker 4: don't think we are supposed to stay together or I

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Speaker 4: don't think we should say together. And at the time

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Speaker 4: I was I don't. That does not make sense, right,

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Speaker 4: Like that does not make any sense. And I didn't

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Speaker 4: really get it until I was in a similar position

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Speaker 4: where I was feeling immense love for somebody who I

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Speaker 4: also just didn't wholeheartedly feel a compatibility in a relationship

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Speaker 4: with moving forward despite immense love.

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Speaker 1: And that person might be in the space that you

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Speaker 1: were in when you were twenty four, Yes, I.

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Speaker 4: Mean with nuances different Like I was in an opposite

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Speaker 4: position and they were in the position that I was

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Speaker 4: once in, and it was it was unbelievably illuminating, fucking awful,

442
00:21:55,480 --> 00:21:59,760
Speaker 4: Like I hate. I hated both of those experiences, right,

443
00:22:00,440 --> 00:22:03,600
Speaker 4: didn't enjoy any moment of any of that, like really

444
00:22:03,640 --> 00:22:08,159
Speaker 4: some of the worst emotions I've ever felt. But I

445
00:22:08,200 --> 00:22:10,040
Speaker 4: also learned a lot from them, and there was a

446
00:22:10,040 --> 00:22:12,960
Speaker 4: lot of context that I didn't have without having been

447
00:22:12,960 --> 00:22:13,920
Speaker 4: on both sides of it.

448
00:22:14,920 --> 00:22:17,960
Speaker 1: You said, like it didn't make any sense, That didn't

449
00:22:18,000 --> 00:22:20,760
Speaker 1: make any sense that you love me, but you are

450
00:22:20,800 --> 00:22:23,159
Speaker 1: walking away from this relationship, Like how.

451
00:22:23,080 --> 00:22:23,720
Speaker 3: Is that possible?

452
00:22:23,720 --> 00:22:27,040
Speaker 1: And I think that speaks into this like larger which

453
00:22:27,119 --> 00:22:30,719
Speaker 1: you might have talked about in therapy idea of like

454
00:22:30,800 --> 00:22:33,240
Speaker 1: these two coexisting things. They don't have to make sense,

455
00:22:33,280 --> 00:22:35,320
Speaker 1: but they can both be there, Like I can be

456
00:22:35,400 --> 00:22:38,080
Speaker 1: like deeply sad and feel deeply free at the same time.

457
00:22:38,280 --> 00:22:40,320
Speaker 1: Like think about how like with any change, there was

458
00:22:40,359 --> 00:22:43,360
Speaker 1: a loss, but oftentimes change is good. And so there's

459
00:22:43,400 --> 00:22:45,960
Speaker 1: these two things that they don't make sense. And I

460
00:22:46,000 --> 00:22:49,399
Speaker 1: think something that I've experienced in my own life and

461
00:22:49,480 --> 00:22:53,280
Speaker 1: I see every day is we as human beings want

462
00:22:53,320 --> 00:22:56,480
Speaker 1: everything to make sense. That's that's how we feel like

463
00:22:56,520 --> 00:23:01,320
Speaker 1: almost like settled, but so much of the world just doesn't.

464
00:23:01,440 --> 00:23:04,240
Speaker 1: And that's like period, like there's no even there's nothing

465
00:23:04,240 --> 00:23:06,760
Speaker 1: else to be said to that, like there's no way

466
00:23:06,800 --> 00:23:10,359
Speaker 1: to make this make sense because it doesn't. But trying

467
00:23:10,400 --> 00:23:12,280
Speaker 1: to make it makes sense isn't going to make it

468
00:23:12,359 --> 00:23:12,920
Speaker 1: go away.

469
00:23:13,359 --> 00:23:16,680
Speaker 2: It makes sense in that you know human's going to human.

470
00:23:17,680 --> 00:23:21,119
Speaker 4: And I remember, like so, at like twenty four to

471
00:23:21,160 --> 00:23:25,240
Speaker 4: twenty five years old, that relationship has ended. I really

472
00:23:25,280 --> 00:23:30,000
Speaker 4: am devastated, and I remember reading a birthday card that

473
00:23:30,040 --> 00:23:32,360
Speaker 4: she had written me on my twenty third birthday.

474
00:23:32,520 --> 00:23:34,040
Speaker 2: This this moment made it into a song.

475
00:23:34,280 --> 00:23:38,199
Speaker 4: I have a song called Sad Corny Fuck and in

476
00:23:38,240 --> 00:23:40,920
Speaker 4: the last verse, the lyric is, I keep your love

477
00:23:41,000 --> 00:23:42,840
Speaker 4: notes in a drawer. I know you don't feel that

478
00:23:42,880 --> 00:23:45,399
Speaker 4: way anymore, it just feels nice knowing you really used to.

479
00:23:45,840 --> 00:23:47,000
Speaker 2: So I remember reading that.

480
00:23:47,640 --> 00:23:49,800
Speaker 4: So I find this like twenty third birthday card that

481
00:23:49,880 --> 00:23:51,919
Speaker 4: she wrote me, and I don't remember verbatim, but she

482
00:23:51,920 --> 00:23:54,359
Speaker 4: says something along lines of like I love you and

483
00:23:54,400 --> 00:23:56,840
Speaker 4: I can't wait to love you forever or something like that.

484
00:23:57,080 --> 00:24:01,600
Speaker 4: And like, reading that post breakup, there's the inclination to go,

485
00:24:01,760 --> 00:24:05,560
Speaker 4: like you liar, Yeah, but I think that would be

486
00:24:05,600 --> 00:24:10,000
Speaker 4: inaccurate because she wholeheartedly meant it. In that moment, you

487
00:24:10,040 --> 00:24:14,600
Speaker 4: can wholeheartedly love someone and feel as if you would

488
00:24:14,680 --> 00:24:17,800
Speaker 4: love them forever. And then do you continue to live

489
00:24:17,840 --> 00:24:21,560
Speaker 4: and you continue to grow and you have to reckon

490
00:24:21,680 --> 00:24:25,439
Speaker 4: with the potential growing disparity of what you want to

491
00:24:25,480 --> 00:24:28,560
Speaker 4: want and what you want, which is a shitty dissonance,

492
00:24:28,680 --> 00:24:32,920
Speaker 4: extraordinarily painful for everyone involved. Yeah, and then you reckon

493
00:24:32,960 --> 00:24:36,240
Speaker 4: with like how much of responsibility do I have to

494
00:24:36,320 --> 00:24:39,720
Speaker 4: the feelings that I once fully felt and no longer do?

495
00:24:40,080 --> 00:24:42,640
Speaker 3: Like do I have to be like literally married glued

496
00:24:42,640 --> 00:24:44,680
Speaker 3: to those for the rest of my life? Or am

497
00:24:44,680 --> 00:24:46,320
Speaker 3: I allowed to change?

498
00:24:46,560 --> 00:24:50,040
Speaker 1: Right? So I have two questions. I'm going to try

499
00:24:50,080 --> 00:24:52,920
Speaker 1: to ask both of them at different times. How did

500
00:24:52,960 --> 00:24:56,239
Speaker 1: you get to this place where you're like, oh, I

501
00:24:56,440 --> 00:24:59,080
Speaker 1: was that person who maybe I've said I want to

502
00:24:59,359 --> 00:25:01,639
Speaker 1: love you for the rest of my life and then

503
00:25:02,200 --> 00:25:03,879
Speaker 1: but I don't feel that way anymore. And now it

504
00:25:03,960 --> 00:25:07,960
Speaker 1: feels like I have to choose between this thing that

505
00:25:08,000 --> 00:25:12,040
Speaker 1: I said one time, or like actual authenticity times or

506
00:25:12,119 --> 00:25:16,000
Speaker 1: lots of times, yeah, a million times, or authenticity of

507
00:25:16,000 --> 00:25:19,240
Speaker 1: what's going on now, because you're bringing up this hard

508
00:25:19,320 --> 00:25:23,120
Speaker 1: point that we evolve and we change, and the world

509
00:25:23,240 --> 00:25:26,359
Speaker 1: change and stuff happens and we can't predict it, and

510
00:25:26,400 --> 00:25:28,520
Speaker 1: we're not in control of our feelings. Like, if we

511
00:25:28,520 --> 00:25:30,199
Speaker 1: were in control of our feelings, I would be a

512
00:25:30,200 --> 00:25:32,439
Speaker 1: bajillionaire because I would just teach people how to do that.

513
00:25:32,920 --> 00:25:35,960
Speaker 1: But we can't do that, and I'm not a bajillionaire.

514
00:25:36,000 --> 00:25:39,760
Speaker 1: So how did you've actually come to terms with I

515
00:25:39,800 --> 00:25:43,680
Speaker 1: have to choose this authentic part that this isn't actually

516
00:25:44,080 --> 00:25:46,000
Speaker 1: where I am anymore. Yeah.

517
00:25:46,040 --> 00:25:47,800
Speaker 4: I mean, I think the first thing is empathizing with

518
00:25:47,840 --> 00:25:51,880
Speaker 4: how just fucking devastating that is for the other person. Yeah,

519
00:25:52,520 --> 00:25:57,080
Speaker 4: because it is truly so awful for someone that you

520
00:25:57,160 --> 00:26:01,639
Speaker 4: really wholeheartedly love and who you haven't stopped intending to

521
00:26:01,680 --> 00:26:04,560
Speaker 4: continue to love, to watch them kind of slip out

522
00:26:04,600 --> 00:26:07,840
Speaker 4: of the emotions that you used to be two feet

523
00:26:07,840 --> 00:26:11,639
Speaker 4: in together. So Recognizing that there's a part of you

524
00:26:12,440 --> 00:26:14,600
Speaker 4: that is feeling things that would hurt someone you love

525
00:26:15,160 --> 00:26:19,199
Speaker 4: is like a very like identity splitting experience, because I

526
00:26:19,240 --> 00:26:21,960
Speaker 4: think part of a relationship is the commitment to protecting

527
00:26:22,200 --> 00:26:24,880
Speaker 4: the person you love from anything that would hurt them.

528
00:26:25,960 --> 00:26:29,800
Speaker 4: So when you recognize there's a part of you that

529
00:26:30,480 --> 00:26:34,439
Speaker 4: is threatening to hurt the person you love, my first

530
00:26:34,480 --> 00:26:38,400
Speaker 4: instinct was to fucking kill it, just to kit like if,

531
00:26:38,520 --> 00:26:40,600
Speaker 4: like I would with anything that tried to hurt her,

532
00:26:41,160 --> 00:26:44,359
Speaker 4: like anything like my I hadn't very much internalized like

533
00:26:44,400 --> 00:26:47,480
Speaker 4: if any if anything is going to hurt you, I'm

534
00:26:47,480 --> 00:26:50,000
Speaker 4: going to hurt it first. And then the thing that

535
00:26:50,680 --> 00:26:54,479
Speaker 4: was growing to hurt her was inside of me, and

536
00:26:54,560 --> 00:26:59,119
Speaker 4: I hated it, despised it, like neglected, despised it, tried

537
00:26:59,160 --> 00:27:04,880
Speaker 4: to destroy it and couldn't, and then grappled with, Okay, well,

538
00:27:04,920 --> 00:27:08,280
Speaker 4: maybe like this will go away, Maybe I can ignore it,

539
00:27:08,320 --> 00:27:12,280
Speaker 4: maybe like maybe I can find a way to just

540
00:27:12,880 --> 00:27:17,440
Speaker 4: deal with this in another way, because I love this

541
00:27:17,520 --> 00:27:20,520
Speaker 4: person I'm with, and I hurting them seems like the

542
00:27:20,560 --> 00:27:23,520
Speaker 4: worst thing in the world because they are so worthy

543
00:27:23,560 --> 00:27:26,840
Speaker 4: of love and so exceptional and intellectually, I still think

544
00:27:26,920 --> 00:27:29,560
Speaker 4: everything I always thought about them and how could I

545
00:27:29,600 --> 00:27:33,480
Speaker 4: possibly let myself hurt them? And then it doesn't go away,

546
00:27:33,480 --> 00:27:35,080
Speaker 4: and that parts of you growing, and then that part

547
00:27:35,080 --> 00:27:37,040
Speaker 4: of will you was like you know, like when you

548
00:27:37,080 --> 00:27:39,640
Speaker 4: hit something, they hit back, and then you know you're

549
00:27:39,680 --> 00:27:41,600
Speaker 4: just in conflict with yourself, and then that takes you

550
00:27:41,640 --> 00:27:44,560
Speaker 4: out of a relationship and it just becomes a whole,

551
00:27:45,320 --> 00:27:46,400
Speaker 4: a whole mess.

552
00:27:47,280 --> 00:27:50,639
Speaker 1: You know what's really cool is you sharing that and

553
00:27:50,720 --> 00:27:54,440
Speaker 1: hearing that perspective. It's a perspective that I don't feel

554
00:27:54,520 --> 00:27:58,719
Speaker 1: as amplified that often. I haven't heard it that often,

555
00:27:59,040 --> 00:28:04,200
Speaker 1: and I hear in my office and I've probably said

556
00:28:04,240 --> 00:28:08,440
Speaker 1: these things a lot of Well, if they knew at

557
00:28:08,440 --> 00:28:10,320
Speaker 1: this point, why didn't they end it? If they were

558
00:28:10,359 --> 00:28:12,960
Speaker 1: feeling this at this point, why didn't that? And I

559
00:28:13,119 --> 00:28:17,120
Speaker 1: like this this description that you're giving us where it's like, well,

560
00:28:17,160 --> 00:28:19,800
Speaker 1: because I didn't want to. I didn't I didn't want

561
00:28:19,840 --> 00:28:23,200
Speaker 1: that voice to be a real voice. So I wasn't

562
00:28:23,200 --> 00:28:26,040
Speaker 1: going to jump ship this. The first time it started

563
00:28:26,040 --> 00:28:28,480
Speaker 1: speaking to me, I was trying to change it, and

564
00:28:28,560 --> 00:28:31,560
Speaker 1: I couldn't because again, I'm not in I can't control

565
00:28:31,600 --> 00:28:41,440
Speaker 1: my feelings. The other question I had is for you

566
00:28:41,760 --> 00:28:46,280
Speaker 1: specifically after the first relationship. How did you find I

567
00:28:46,320 --> 00:28:47,959
Speaker 1: don't know what the right word is, but almost like

568
00:28:48,240 --> 00:28:50,880
Speaker 1: the courage. How do you find the courage to like

569
00:28:51,040 --> 00:28:56,480
Speaker 1: jump back in something when you've felt the deepest pain

570
00:28:56,680 --> 00:28:59,920
Speaker 1: and you know what a relationship can lead to, Because

571
00:28:59,920 --> 00:29:02,400
Speaker 1: you'll hear that all day long. I've definitely said this,

572
00:29:02,680 --> 00:29:04,120
Speaker 1: I don't ever want to feel like this again, so

573
00:29:04,160 --> 00:29:05,680
Speaker 1: I'm just never going to date anybody again.

574
00:29:06,320 --> 00:29:10,000
Speaker 4: Yeah, I met someone miraculous. I just met someone who

575
00:29:10,080 --> 00:29:15,040
Speaker 4: was entirely impossible to not love. Yeah, it was unavoidable

576
00:29:15,080 --> 00:29:17,040
Speaker 4: in every way. The answer, I don't think it's more

577
00:29:17,040 --> 00:29:20,320
Speaker 4: complicated than yeah, Like I didn't necessarily think that. I

578
00:29:20,400 --> 00:29:22,000
Speaker 4: you know, there's about a year and a half between

579
00:29:22,000 --> 00:29:25,440
Speaker 4: those relationships, and sure, like I had the fear of

580
00:29:25,440 --> 00:29:29,280
Speaker 4: that happening again, but there was just such a doubtlessness

581
00:29:29,400 --> 00:29:32,520
Speaker 4: about the beginning, you know, there was such a you know,

582
00:29:32,520 --> 00:29:37,560
Speaker 4: I meet someone you feel like every imaginable you know,

583
00:29:37,720 --> 00:29:40,880
Speaker 4: certainty in the beginnings and excitement of something, and it

584
00:29:41,000 --> 00:29:42,360
Speaker 4: just becomes impossible to.

585
00:29:42,320 --> 00:29:43,360
Speaker 2: Not love them.

586
00:29:43,960 --> 00:29:45,320
Speaker 3: I freaking love that you said that.

587
00:29:45,360 --> 00:29:47,760
Speaker 1: I need to like play this in sessions as well,

588
00:29:47,840 --> 00:29:50,400
Speaker 1: because it's again one of those tangible things we want, right,

589
00:29:50,480 --> 00:29:54,240
Speaker 1: Like I want a roadmap to heartbreak, So I want

590
00:29:54,240 --> 00:29:57,560
Speaker 1: to know like how long am I going to feel

591
00:29:57,600 --> 00:29:58,080
Speaker 1: this way?

592
00:29:58,160 --> 00:29:58,840
Speaker 3: And will when?

593
00:29:58,880 --> 00:30:02,280
Speaker 1: Will I know when I'm ready to date again? And

594
00:30:02,720 --> 00:30:05,280
Speaker 1: I think part of this is a lot of people

595
00:30:05,360 --> 00:30:08,080
Speaker 1: think that therapists like have these like hard and fast rules,

596
00:30:08,120 --> 00:30:12,680
Speaker 1: and we don't because everybody's different. And so you saying like, oh,

597
00:30:12,920 --> 00:30:14,760
Speaker 1: actually I was able to do that because I met

598
00:30:14,800 --> 00:30:17,360
Speaker 1: somebody and I just couldn't avoid the feelings I was having,

599
00:30:17,480 --> 00:30:20,520
Speaker 1: Like I met somebody who actually made me feel like

600
00:30:20,560 --> 00:30:23,200
Speaker 1: it was safe. I met something like That's how it happened.

601
00:30:23,200 --> 00:30:25,960
Speaker 1: I didn't do a workbook, I didn't wait a certain

602
00:30:25,960 --> 00:30:29,760
Speaker 1: amount of time specifically, I didn't put rules on things.

603
00:30:30,360 --> 00:30:31,960
Speaker 3: I just kind of let myself feel.

604
00:30:32,320 --> 00:30:35,600
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean there were a couple things that I

605
00:30:35,600 --> 00:30:38,600
Speaker 4: would say during that period of my life really helped

606
00:30:38,640 --> 00:30:40,640
Speaker 4: me get to a place where I was ready to

607
00:30:41,440 --> 00:30:47,000
Speaker 4: meet someone like stunningly exceptional and then dive into it.

608
00:30:47,560 --> 00:30:49,640
Speaker 4: I would say the two things I did that I

609
00:30:49,680 --> 00:30:52,400
Speaker 4: really am grateful to that version of myself for doing

610
00:30:53,200 --> 00:30:58,880
Speaker 4: was I started channeling my romantic energy and my desire

611
00:30:58,920 --> 00:31:02,920
Speaker 4: for intimacy and my communities rather than dating. So like,

612
00:31:02,960 --> 00:31:08,640
Speaker 4: whenever I felt that urge for you know, I'm craving intimacy.

613
00:31:08,760 --> 00:31:10,400
Speaker 4: You know, am I going to go on a dating app?

614
00:31:10,760 --> 00:31:12,120
Speaker 4: Am I going to go on a first day with

615
00:31:12,120 --> 00:31:15,440
Speaker 4: a stranger? Or am I going to try and foster

616
00:31:15,640 --> 00:31:17,560
Speaker 4: more intimate relationships with my friends?

617
00:31:17,960 --> 00:31:18,880
Speaker 2: And it was the.

618
00:31:18,800 --> 00:31:21,120
Speaker 4: Best thing I did in that year of my life

619
00:31:21,760 --> 00:31:23,600
Speaker 4: was every time I felt that I would just reach

620
00:31:23,640 --> 00:31:25,800
Speaker 4: out to, I would reach out to either my best

621
00:31:25,800 --> 00:31:28,719
Speaker 4: friends or friends that I had close relationships with and

622
00:31:28,760 --> 00:31:33,200
Speaker 4: wanted to be closer with. And my community grew really

623
00:31:33,200 --> 00:31:35,920
Speaker 4: meaningfully during that year and a half, like twenty eighteen

624
00:31:35,960 --> 00:31:39,280
Speaker 4: twenty nineteen, and going into that relationship now I had

625
00:31:39,280 --> 00:31:42,320
Speaker 4: this community so and it's still my community. So I'm

626
00:31:42,320 --> 00:31:45,000
Speaker 4: really grateful for that energy, and it's honestly the place

627
00:31:45,040 --> 00:31:47,560
Speaker 4: I'm in now. And the other thing that I think

628
00:31:48,120 --> 00:31:52,120
Speaker 4: helped for me personally was getting a little bit more

629
00:31:52,120 --> 00:31:54,760
Speaker 4: comfortable with leaving space.

630
00:31:55,240 --> 00:31:56,800
Speaker 3: What do you mean by leaving space?

631
00:31:57,280 --> 00:31:59,280
Speaker 4: I think love is one of the best feelings in

632
00:31:59,280 --> 00:32:01,360
Speaker 4: the world, so or most people, you would rather have

633
00:32:01,720 --> 00:32:04,160
Speaker 4: the wrong version of it than none of it. But

634
00:32:05,160 --> 00:32:07,880
Speaker 4: as long as you're occupying the part of you that

635
00:32:07,960 --> 00:32:10,800
Speaker 4: has the capacity to love with a version of love

636
00:32:10,840 --> 00:32:13,240
Speaker 4: that isn't what you want. There isn't actually the space

637
00:32:13,280 --> 00:32:15,080
Speaker 4: for it to be filled by the version that you do.

638
00:32:16,320 --> 00:32:18,040
Speaker 2: And holding on to.

639
00:32:18,080 --> 00:32:20,440
Speaker 4: The idea that what was going to make me happy

640
00:32:20,560 --> 00:32:23,200
Speaker 4: was something that I didn't know anything about yet, Like

641
00:32:23,280 --> 00:32:25,640
Speaker 4: it wasn't an answer that I had at my fingertips,

642
00:32:25,640 --> 00:32:27,640
Speaker 4: Like it wasn't actually in my life. The thing that

643
00:32:27,720 --> 00:32:29,080
Speaker 4: was going to make me happy, the thing that I

644
00:32:29,120 --> 00:32:31,000
Speaker 4: was going to love, wasn't something that I could come

645
00:32:31,080 --> 00:32:33,960
Speaker 4: up with. It wasn't something that I had any semblance

646
00:32:33,960 --> 00:32:37,000
Speaker 4: of or any hints on. Like that reminder for myself

647
00:32:37,120 --> 00:32:39,800
Speaker 4: was useful. And then just reminding myself that like, yes,

648
00:32:39,880 --> 00:32:42,640
Speaker 4: there's a space there, and that space can be uncomfortable,

649
00:32:42,920 --> 00:32:45,120
Speaker 4: the space that wants to love someone, that wants to

650
00:32:45,160 --> 00:32:49,040
Speaker 4: hold someone. But if I feel it, then there isn't

651
00:32:49,120 --> 00:32:51,360
Speaker 4: room for the thing that's supposed to be there if

652
00:32:51,400 --> 00:32:53,040
Speaker 4: I keep filling it with the wrong thing.

653
00:32:53,440 --> 00:32:57,520
Speaker 1: Yes, that was beautiful, And what you're also speaking to

654
00:32:57,880 --> 00:33:02,440
Speaker 1: is and maybe I'm wrong that even in that space,

655
00:33:02,720 --> 00:33:05,040
Speaker 1: your life can still be good, Like even when you're

656
00:33:05,080 --> 00:33:07,280
Speaker 1: living in that uncomfortable space, life can still be good.

657
00:33:07,880 --> 00:33:11,160
Speaker 4: Of course, emptiness is just openness from the right angle,

658
00:33:12,000 --> 00:33:16,920
Speaker 4: and reminding myself of that I think is one of

659
00:33:16,960 --> 00:33:18,240
Speaker 4: the best things I did in.

660
00:33:18,120 --> 00:33:19,400
Speaker 2: That version of Heartbreak.

661
00:33:19,560 --> 00:33:22,520
Speaker 4: Yeah, because it can feel like emptiness, especially like when

662
00:33:22,520 --> 00:33:24,600
Speaker 4: there's someone who is there.

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00:33:24,400 --> 00:33:27,480
Speaker 2: For you, you.

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00:33:25,640 --> 00:33:27,440
Speaker 4: Know, for a long period of time, who is that

665
00:33:27,480 --> 00:33:29,560
Speaker 4: intimate connection, and then they're not there anymore. Like it

666
00:33:29,600 --> 00:33:32,440
Speaker 4: can feel like emptiness, but with the right perspective, it

667
00:33:32,520 --> 00:33:34,840
Speaker 4: is also an openness. It's an openness for that space

668
00:33:34,880 --> 00:33:37,920
Speaker 4: to be filled by new things that you aren't able

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00:33:37,960 --> 00:33:39,880
Speaker 4: to come up with for yourself, but will show up,

670
00:33:41,360 --> 00:33:43,520
Speaker 4: like showing up to a songwriting session with you know,

671
00:33:43,720 --> 00:33:45,840
Speaker 4: someone that you really admire and then writing a song

672
00:33:45,880 --> 00:33:48,320
Speaker 4: that changes your life, and meeting someone who changes your life.

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00:33:48,480 --> 00:33:50,640
Speaker 4: You know, Like you don't come up with those things.

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00:33:50,680 --> 00:33:54,960
Speaker 3: It's just kind of you can't force that. Yeah, Yeah,

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00:33:55,120 --> 00:33:55,800
Speaker 3: all right, y'all.

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00:33:55,880 --> 00:33:58,600
Speaker 1: I know you're probably on the edge of your seat

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00:33:58,840 --> 00:34:02,239
Speaker 1: because maybe we just got into talking about something that

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00:34:02,240 --> 00:34:04,400
Speaker 1: you're like, give me more of this. I want to

679
00:34:04,440 --> 00:34:06,440
Speaker 1: hear more. Well, good news, there's going to be more

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00:34:06,720 --> 00:34:09,440
Speaker 1: and it's coming next week. This is a two part

681
00:34:09,719 --> 00:34:13,440
Speaker 1: episode with JP Sacks, So if you have not already

682
00:34:13,480 --> 00:34:16,880
Speaker 1: subscribed or followed this podcast, go ahead and do that

683
00:34:16,960 --> 00:34:19,719
Speaker 1: now so you won't miss next week's episode. I will

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00:34:19,719 --> 00:34:22,200
Speaker 1: be back with him next Monday, so go ahead and

685
00:34:22,239 --> 00:34:24,719
Speaker 1: do that. And in the meantime, I hope you guys

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00:34:24,760 --> 00:34:27,200
Speaker 1: have the days that you need to have and I

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00:34:27,280 --> 00:34:28,279
Speaker 1: will talk to you soon