WEBVTT - Vance Boelter Captured After Political Attack in Minnesota, Forensic Breakdown in Kohberger's Case, and the Palm Springs Bombing Manifesto 0:00:00.360 --> 0:00:03.760 This program features the individual opinions of the hosts, guests, 0:00:03.760 --> 0:00:07.240 and callers, and not necessarily those of the producer, the station, 0:00:07.360 --> 0:00:11.600 its affiliates, or sponsors. This is True Crime Tonight. 0:00:19.400 --> 0:00:22.440 Welcome to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio, where we talk 0:00:22.520 --> 0:00:26.200 true crime all the time. It's Sunday, June fifteenth. Happy 0:00:26.200 --> 0:00:29.360 Father's Day to all the great dads out there. We 0:00:29.440 --> 0:00:32.000 have a stack night a headlines tonight. The jury is 0:00:32.000 --> 0:00:36.200 finally deliberating. Will Karen Reid finally get her verdict this week? 0:00:36.360 --> 0:00:38.400 I think it's going to be tomorrow. We are also 0:00:38.440 --> 0:00:41.920 catching up on all things puff Daddy in the trial continues. 0:00:42.000 --> 0:00:44.600 And then we have our special guest who will be 0:00:44.680 --> 0:00:48.720 here all the time, the KT crew Joseph Scott Morgan, 0:00:48.960 --> 0:00:52.120 the greatest forensics expert of all time, also the host 0:00:52.120 --> 0:00:54.200 of Body Bags. He is joining us later in the 0:00:54.200 --> 0:00:57.080 show and talking to us about Long Island, the Idaho 0:00:57.320 --> 0:01:00.760 College murderers, the works, and all of that plus more. 0:01:00.840 --> 0:01:03.680 I'm Stephanie Laidecker and I head up KAT Studios where 0:01:03.720 --> 0:01:07.000 we make true crime podcasts and documentaries and I get 0:01:07.000 --> 0:01:09.759 to do that every day with Courtney Armstraw and Body 0:01:09.920 --> 0:01:12.640 Move In So Body Karen Reid, we're there. 0:01:13.040 --> 0:01:16.400 Finally, finally. You think we're gonna have a verdict tomorrow. 0:01:16.720 --> 0:01:20.440 I do, So I'm gonna I'm gonna go with late Tuesday, 0:01:20.480 --> 0:01:21.319 early Wednesday. 0:01:21.680 --> 0:01:24.479 That's your betods. 0:01:24.000 --> 0:01:26.800 Well, I mean you seem like it seems like very 0:01:26.800 --> 0:01:29.640 black and white, right like you if you're not really up, 0:01:29.959 --> 0:01:31.640 you know where you need to be by now there's 0:01:31.680 --> 0:01:35.319 a problem, right, And I totally get you, I absolutely do. 0:01:35.480 --> 0:01:38.440 If the jury comes back Monday, I think it's gonna 0:01:38.480 --> 0:01:40.120 be not guilty all the way down the board, like 0:01:40.160 --> 0:01:42.800 I really do. But I but I think there's gonna 0:01:42.800 --> 0:01:44.959 be some contention. I think there's gonna be some people 0:01:44.959 --> 0:01:48.720 in the jury room who have some questions, and I 0:01:48.800 --> 0:01:50.600 think it could go because they think it a full 0:01:50.680 --> 0:01:52.560 day Friday, right, They didn't get a full day. 0:01:52.720 --> 0:01:54.680 They only had two hours under. 0:01:54.520 --> 0:01:57.040 Flowers, right, So I think they need at least a 0:01:57.080 --> 0:01:59.960 full day. So that's Monday and then most of Tuesday, 0:02:00.080 --> 0:02:02.040 I think they need, if not all of Tuesday, and 0:02:02.080 --> 0:02:03.760 then we'll hear something on Wednesday. 0:02:04.080 --> 0:02:07.200 There's I think to the optics of that. Also, this has. 0:02:07.120 --> 0:02:10.320 Been a long time coming Karen Reid's retrial. If you 0:02:10.400 --> 0:02:13.280 haven't been following closely. Karen Reid. This is her second 0:02:13.320 --> 0:02:16.679 trial for the death of her boyfriend John O'Keefe. She's 0:02:16.680 --> 0:02:19.680 accused of basically running him over with her lexus in 0:02:19.720 --> 0:02:22.400 the middle of the night and fleeing the scene in 0:02:22.440 --> 0:02:25.120 the middle of a snowstorm under the influence of alcohol. 0:02:25.320 --> 0:02:27.240 And look, she had a hung jury the first time. 0:02:27.400 --> 0:02:29.720 This is the second round. She feels as though the 0:02:29.760 --> 0:02:32.280 defense did a really great job on her behalf. So 0:02:32.320 --> 0:02:35.440 she feels as though she's been well represented. And look, 0:02:35.480 --> 0:02:37.560 at this point, it's the final stretch. It's in the 0:02:37.600 --> 0:02:38.280 juror's hands. 0:02:38.520 --> 0:02:39.720 And you know, I have to agree with her. 0:02:39.800 --> 0:02:42.040 She has been well represented, and I think her defense 0:02:42.080 --> 0:02:45.880 actually did a really great job. But I also will 0:02:45.919 --> 0:02:49.679 say the prosecution did a great job with what they had. 0:02:50.320 --> 0:02:53.880 I think the investigation itself, which you know though of 0:02:53.960 --> 0:02:56.360 course the state that well, the prosecution doesn't really have 0:02:56.440 --> 0:02:58.680 a huge pardon, you know, like they're not out on 0:02:58.720 --> 0:03:01.960 the scene, you know, colecting samples with solo cups. Right, 0:03:02.000 --> 0:03:04.760 it's not it's not the lawyers that are doing that, true. 0:03:05.080 --> 0:03:08.280 But so yeah, Friday wrapped up, the jury started, there 0:03:08.320 --> 0:03:11.920 was a swarm of reed supporters out in front. Like 0:03:12.040 --> 0:03:14.280 you know, last the first trial, it seemed like there 0:03:14.320 --> 0:03:17.280 was a constant surge of people, but this retrial there 0:03:17.280 --> 0:03:19.200 hasn't been, you know, that big of a crowd. But 0:03:19.320 --> 0:03:21.440 Friday we saw a big crowd. So that must have 0:03:21.480 --> 0:03:24.160 been nice for Karen to see as she exited the courthouse. 0:03:24.200 --> 0:03:26.280 You know, I obviously I love that. 0:03:27.080 --> 0:03:30.800 Obviously she didn't testify, so that's really no big surprise. 0:03:31.040 --> 0:03:33.520 But I kind of wanted to go Courtney, and I thought, 0:03:33.760 --> 0:03:35.040 and you can tell me what you think about the 0:03:35.040 --> 0:03:38.040 Stephanie Courtney, and I thought maybe we would go through 0:03:38.400 --> 0:03:41.840 the highlights of each closing statement, like I'll do the 0:03:41.840 --> 0:03:45.800 prosecution side, and Courtney would do, you know, the defensive side, 0:03:45.920 --> 0:03:47.040 and we would maybe go. 0:03:47.160 --> 0:03:47.640 To do it. 0:03:47.840 --> 0:03:50.200 Yeah, let's go because there are some really big ticket 0:03:50.280 --> 0:03:54.200 items on either side. And frankly, you guys are legit divided. 0:03:54.320 --> 0:03:57.600 So this is a fun exercise because it's authentic. 0:03:58.080 --> 0:03:58.400 Yeah. 0:03:58.440 --> 0:04:00.800 So one thing that really kind of put everything in 0:04:00.960 --> 0:04:04.600 perspective for me in regards to the prosecution who it 0:04:04.680 --> 0:04:07.720 was done by Prosecutor Hank Brennan. One of the things 0:04:07.720 --> 0:04:09.680 that he said that really kind of brought everything home 0:04:09.720 --> 0:04:12.600 for me was at how John's niece testified that John 0:04:12.640 --> 0:04:15.320 would just walk away from arguments, like if him and 0:04:15.400 --> 0:04:17.680 Karen were arguing, he would just like walk away, and 0:04:17.800 --> 0:04:21.040 Karen would follow him room to room and just continue 0:04:21.080 --> 0:04:23.880 to fight. Okay, that just kind of this goes to 0:04:23.960 --> 0:04:26.479 my theory about what happened that night. So when he 0:04:26.520 --> 0:04:29.320 said that, I was kind of like confirmation bias. Here 0:04:29.360 --> 0:04:31.800 we go. It's working over time in my head right now, 0:04:32.320 --> 0:04:34.719 because I really think that, you know, they were arguing 0:04:34.720 --> 0:04:38.239 that night and things, you know, again, they were both 0:04:38.320 --> 0:04:42.640 you know, wasted right and emotional, and I think either 0:04:42.839 --> 0:04:47.039 he threw the whiskey glass at the tailgate or was 0:04:47.080 --> 0:04:49.880 bending down because he dropped it and she was backing 0:04:50.000 --> 0:04:53.080 up twenty four miles an hour, and either I don't 0:04:53.120 --> 0:04:55.400 necessarily think she hit him, but I think he kind 0:04:55.400 --> 0:04:58.760 of maybe got startled or you know, lost his balance something, 0:04:59.120 --> 0:05:00.719 and that's what happened. 0:05:00.960 --> 0:05:05.440 And she unknowingly, in your unknowingly regardless, she left, not 0:05:05.560 --> 0:05:08.320 thinking she was leaving her boyfriend for dead in the snow, 0:05:08.480 --> 0:05:10.960 but rather that she was just peeling out and he 0:05:11.080 --> 0:05:13.440 was going up the driveway to see his buds, right, 0:05:13.680 --> 0:05:15.600 and by all accounts she wanted to go home right. 0:05:15.680 --> 0:05:18.000 She was for this night was done. 0:05:18.120 --> 0:05:20.240 She was sick in and out with the friends, and 0:05:20.400 --> 0:05:21.720 it had gone on for too long. 0:05:21.880 --> 0:05:24.360 She wanted to go home right, and then he went, 0:05:24.440 --> 0:05:25.560 you know. He argued that. 0:05:25.920 --> 0:05:29.479 He argues that John O'Keefe was struck with the SUV 0:05:29.600 --> 0:05:31.440 after a night of drinking and then she just like 0:05:31.480 --> 0:05:34.400 abandoned him in the snow. He highlighted key evidence like 0:05:34.440 --> 0:05:38.880 the tail like fragments again read's own words and voicemails 0:05:38.880 --> 0:05:41.560 and text messages, you know, expressing her hatred for John 0:05:41.680 --> 0:05:45.240 but again they were fighting right, and her significant impairment, 0:05:45.320 --> 0:05:49.640 he mentioned, you know those he he referenced her own words, 0:05:49.680 --> 0:05:51.720 he said, I don't She said, I don't think I 0:05:51.800 --> 0:05:53.680 hit him, but I could have clipped him. In the 0:05:53.720 --> 0:05:57.120 documentary series which they played for by the way, in court, that. 0:05:57.240 --> 0:05:58.599 Was their big ending moment. 0:05:58.920 --> 0:06:00.920 She regret that or not, but look, I know at 0:06:00.960 --> 0:06:03.360 the end of the day, she's being candid. And she's 0:06:03.400 --> 0:06:06.440 also said to have said at the scene when discovering 0:06:06.480 --> 0:06:09.000 his body, I killed him, or I hit him, I 0:06:09.040 --> 0:06:11.599 hit him. I mean that has also been turned around 0:06:11.720 --> 0:06:14.440 by the defense to say I didn't hit him. I 0:06:14.480 --> 0:06:17.000 didn't hit him, and maybe that got lost in translation. 0:06:17.279 --> 0:06:19.400 Also that it's and I will not hop in after 0:06:19.440 --> 0:06:21.200 this on the prosecutions. 0:06:21.920 --> 0:06:24.520 This is my time, cord time, but one thing. 0:06:24.600 --> 0:06:28.240 But it also is a common trauma response of when 0:06:28.320 --> 0:06:33.440 you are literally shocked to say things like it's my fault, 0:06:33.600 --> 0:06:35.440 I do wherever it is anyway, that's it. 0:06:35.600 --> 0:06:37.520 I know, I can, I can absolutely agree with that. 0:06:37.600 --> 0:06:39.320 So I thought Hank did a great. 0:06:39.200 --> 0:06:42.279 Job and in line with you know, the iPhone data 0:06:42.279 --> 0:06:45.800 shows he wasn't in the house. The temperature the temperature 0:06:45.839 --> 0:06:48.479 data on the iPhone, how it never you know, it 0:06:48.520 --> 0:06:51.280 stayed consistent with him basically laying on top of it 0:06:51.400 --> 0:06:55.720 all night. The tail light fragments from her lexus are 0:06:55.839 --> 0:06:57.719 the ones that were found in the yard. You know, 0:06:57.760 --> 0:07:00.760 her backing up at twenty four miles per hour literally 0:07:00.800 --> 0:07:03.200 at the same time that his phone stopped moving for 0:07:03.240 --> 0:07:05.440 the rest of the night. Combined with all that, I 0:07:05.480 --> 0:07:08.279 believe Karen Read is guilty, and I believe the state 0:07:08.360 --> 0:07:10.520 did as good as they could. But I think they're 0:07:10.520 --> 0:07:11.560 going to find her not guilty. 0:07:11.680 --> 0:07:15.280 And you think she'll go away till when No, I 0:07:15.280 --> 0:07:16.119 don't think her life. 0:07:16.240 --> 0:07:18.080 No, I don't think they're going to find her guilty. 0:07:18.680 --> 0:07:19.160 I don't think. 0:07:19.280 --> 0:07:21.440 I don't think that they've proved it beyond a reasonable doubt. 0:07:21.680 --> 0:07:23.560 So you think she did it, but she'll get away 0:07:23.600 --> 0:07:25.200 with it. I do, I do. 0:07:25.720 --> 0:07:25.800 So. 0:07:26.120 --> 0:07:32.360 We have heard the prosecution side the state arrests for 0:07:32.440 --> 0:07:36.560 the defense. The closing argument was given by Alan Jackson. 0:07:36.760 --> 0:07:41.800 I think he did an exemplary job. Body is making motions. 0:07:42.400 --> 0:07:48.040 As Okay, did somebody just appear with the gavel? 0:07:48.120 --> 0:07:48.440 Okay? 0:07:48.600 --> 0:07:52.040 Court is back in session. Continue, sorry, courtneyarmstets Okay. The 0:07:52.040 --> 0:07:53.239 prosecution has. 0:07:53.080 --> 0:07:56.360 Not proven their SUV collision theory beyond a reasonable doubt, 0:07:56.480 --> 0:08:00.000 the injuries were not consistent with being hit by a car, 0:08:00.400 --> 0:08:03.880 and in fact, no medical professional on either side, no 0:08:04.000 --> 0:08:07.240 medical professional backs up the fact that John O'Keeffe was 0:08:07.280 --> 0:08:10.880 hit by a car. That obviously includes the Commonwealth's medical examiner. 0:08:11.320 --> 0:08:14.800 John's arm, which the prosecution expert alleges was hit by 0:08:14.920 --> 0:08:17.560 a tail light, It was not bruised or broken. And 0:08:17.600 --> 0:08:20.680 there was a really interesting moment in the closing arguments 0:08:20.680 --> 0:08:23.800 where the defense said we had to dig up these 0:08:24.400 --> 0:08:27.960 X rays of John's arm and they hadn't. He made 0:08:27.960 --> 0:08:29.320 it seem like they were kind of trying to cover 0:08:29.320 --> 0:08:32.439 it up. But bottom line, this arm that was allegedly 0:08:32.520 --> 0:08:36.079 hit by a six thousand pound vehicle was not broken. 0:08:36.400 --> 0:08:39.959 That is a shocker, a shocker to me. I just 0:08:40.000 --> 0:08:43.320 don't believe he was hit with the SUV. I mean 0:08:44.000 --> 0:08:46.080 to me, it's not a huge shocker. I don't know. 0:08:46.360 --> 0:08:47.360 But why the cover. 0:08:47.600 --> 0:08:50.080 But that because they thought it's the whole prosecution's case 0:08:50.120 --> 0:08:50.719 that they were hit. 0:08:50.800 --> 0:08:52.679 So that is what they are. That is what they are. 0:08:52.679 --> 0:08:57.480 Stipulaight also brought up in closing arguments excuse me, taillight tampering. 0:08:58.040 --> 0:09:02.080 So Nicholas Barrows testified about the damage to the tail 0:09:02.160 --> 0:09:04.440 light and the fact that it was more extensive in 0:09:04.480 --> 0:09:07.560 a photo taken at the police garage than it was 0:09:07.600 --> 0:09:10.480 when he sees the vehicle at Karen's parents' house. 0:09:10.640 --> 0:09:12.720 Okay, so that's that is a big deal. 0:09:13.160 --> 0:09:17.400 Suspicious behavior from Brian Higgins from here to sundown. You know, 0:09:17.520 --> 0:09:20.120 as the jurors, we've seen the surveillance of Higgins getting 0:09:20.160 --> 0:09:23.440 aggressive with victim John O'Keeffe at the bar earlier that night, 0:09:23.679 --> 0:09:27.680 and then one hour after Karen Reid left the scene 0:09:27.679 --> 0:09:30.800 at one thirty am, then Brian Higgins was back down 0:09:30.840 --> 0:09:34.520 at the Campton Police station doing paperwork question Mark. 0:09:34.800 --> 0:09:36.000 There was so much. 0:09:36.120 --> 0:09:40.720 Misconduct by Michael Proctor, the lead investigator, even take aside 0:09:40.760 --> 0:09:43.320 the bias text messages that we've talked about where he 0:09:43.360 --> 0:09:46.560 said very disgusting things, hard to do, hard to Karen 0:09:46.600 --> 0:09:49.760 read side, But even taking that out, he had a 0:09:49.800 --> 0:09:53.280 refusal to look behind beyond Karen as a suspect. There 0:09:53.320 --> 0:09:57.720 was almost no investigation. There was literally no investigation into 0:09:57.760 --> 0:10:02.760 the Alpert's house. The Perts, the homeowners did not come 0:10:02.800 --> 0:10:04.480 out at all that morning. 0:10:04.640 --> 0:10:06.920 They only went in for like five minutes to interview 0:10:07.040 --> 0:10:07.720 Jen McCabe. 0:10:07.760 --> 0:10:10.560 Right, I was gonna say in Jenn McCabe, she's really 0:10:10.760 --> 0:10:13.120 the one who's basically saying I did it. 0:10:13.160 --> 0:10:13.560 I did it. 0:10:13.640 --> 0:10:18.040 She heard Read's first hand confession. Where's all the investigating 0:10:18.120 --> 0:10:20.760 into the people that were there? Courtney, Courtney, did you 0:10:20.800 --> 0:10:21.480 go to law school? 0:10:21.600 --> 0:10:22.520 There was over the weekends. 0:10:24.480 --> 0:10:27.120 Got me listen, I'm sensing some bias here. 0:10:27.520 --> 0:10:30.480 There was no crime scene tape to secure the scene. 0:10:30.600 --> 0:10:33.120 These are facts A neighbor's home which had a ring 0:10:33.360 --> 0:10:37.200 camera pointed directly at the Alpert's house. It wasn't visited 0:10:37.240 --> 0:10:39.880 that home and therefore the video was lost. These are 0:10:40.000 --> 0:10:44.560 investigative absolute failures that prove that you know, they were 0:10:44.600 --> 0:10:49.640 not looking at anyone but Karen Reid. And then also 0:10:50.720 --> 0:10:54.400 with the tail light, so the tail light was completely 0:10:54.440 --> 0:10:59.080 the internal workings were totally gone, right, but at which 0:10:59.120 --> 0:11:01.199 meant it would not light up at all. But there 0:11:01.280 --> 0:11:04.920 was a photo at five seven am, many hours after 0:11:04.960 --> 0:11:09.480 she allegedly hit Schaineakeef where her tailight was illuminated. And 0:11:09.559 --> 0:11:11.760 yet then that's right after that. 0:11:11.320 --> 0:11:14.040 That's right, it was totally white, right because the red Yeah, 0:11:14.120 --> 0:11:15.240 that's right, that's right. 0:11:15.480 --> 0:11:17.680 I know. I would like to know if in fact 0:11:17.880 --> 0:11:21.920 Karen Reid is found innocent not guilty tomorrow. My prediction 0:11:22.160 --> 0:11:26.440 if that happens, can charges still be placed on, say, 0:11:26.520 --> 0:11:30.440 for example, Brian Higgins, who's come up many times allegedly, 0:11:30.440 --> 0:11:36.120 allegedly allegedly is is can the state prosecute Yeah, of course. 0:11:35.840 --> 0:11:38.640 They can't prosecute Karen Reid, but certainly they could go, 0:11:38.760 --> 0:11:40.960 well we went back to the drawing board, and you know, 0:11:41.000 --> 0:11:44.720 but I mean, I would imagine that the Higgins defense 0:11:44.760 --> 0:11:47.040 would be like, well, then why'd you prosecute? 0:11:47.040 --> 0:11:48.400 Why'd you try to prosecute Karen? 0:11:48.440 --> 0:11:50.360 Read twice in a row like why you know now 0:11:50.360 --> 0:11:52.120 you're just looking for a fall guy, you know, But 0:11:52.200 --> 0:11:52.640 I don't know. 0:11:52.760 --> 0:11:54.880 But ye, it's a bad look I suppose to badbody. 0:11:55.040 --> 0:11:59.320 Yeah, so both the prosecution and defense have rested. When 0:11:59.360 --> 0:12:02.480 we come back, Stephanie will give her verdict. We're going 0:12:02.559 --> 0:12:06.160 to continue following this and we are joined by forensic 0:12:06.240 --> 0:12:10.080 expert Joseph Scott Morgan. He has insight on three major 0:12:10.120 --> 0:12:13.400 criminal cases. Then we're breaking down week five at the 0:12:13.440 --> 0:12:16.240 trial in Shan Diddy Combs keep it here on True 0:12:16.240 --> 0:12:23.600 Crime tonight. 0:12:26.880 --> 0:12:30.600 So we were really highly debating this whole Karen Reid's stuff, 0:12:30.679 --> 0:12:32.520 and we're going to push that on until later in 0:12:32.559 --> 0:12:35.280 the show. I'm still a little bit divided, although both 0:12:35.280 --> 0:12:37.120 of you, I must say, have done a really great 0:12:37.200 --> 0:12:41.080 job presenting the facts. But now on to our next body. 0:12:41.080 --> 0:12:43.720 Where should we start with Long Island? So the alleged 0:12:43.760 --> 0:12:46.440 Long Island serial killer Rex Hewerman. He'll be back in 0:12:46.520 --> 0:12:50.080 court on Tuesday. This is court, by the way, the judge. 0:12:49.800 --> 0:12:51.960 Will continue to weigh in on whether or not to 0:12:52.040 --> 0:12:56.000 allow the key DNA evidence into the trial. Rex Huwerman 0:12:56.160 --> 0:12:59.520 was arrested in twenty twenty three on suspicion of being 0:12:59.520 --> 0:13:03.800 the serial killer allegedly responsible for eleven murders in Long 0:13:03.840 --> 0:13:07.640 Island from nineteen ninety three to two thousand and eleven. 0:13:07.920 --> 0:13:11.240 It's important to note he has been only linked and 0:13:11.320 --> 0:13:15.000 accused of seven of the murders. The other remaining ones 0:13:15.000 --> 0:13:17.680 are alleged and there is going to be a June 0:13:17.720 --> 0:13:21.959 seventeenth hearing and prosecutors want to admit cutting edge genetic 0:13:22.040 --> 0:13:26.559 evidence and the defense has strong objections and we will 0:13:26.600 --> 0:13:28.720 hear more about that when they're back in court. 0:13:28.960 --> 0:13:32.120 Well, I have a sneaking suspicion that Joseph Scott Morgan, 0:13:32.200 --> 0:13:36.840 forensics expert, host of bodybags and also worldwide scholar himself 0:13:37.080 --> 0:13:39.800 Jacksonville State University, is here in the house. 0:13:39.960 --> 0:13:41.720 Joseph, what do you have to say for yourself? 0:13:42.200 --> 0:13:45.040 Oh? Not much, but thanks for having me on Hoe. 0:13:45.440 --> 0:13:49.480 I've been waiting to join you guys now low these 0:13:49.520 --> 0:13:51.360 couple of weeks and it's great to be on We 0:13:51.480 --> 0:13:54.480 all to see if shining faces and hear your lovely voices. 0:13:54.960 --> 0:13:58.360 Joseph is also Katie Family and he is a part 0:13:58.400 --> 0:14:01.120 of the crew here, going to be with us often. 0:14:01.320 --> 0:14:03.440 He does all of our podcasts as well. 0:14:03.480 --> 0:14:06.560 He's been on all of our documentaries, so he's he's 0:14:06.600 --> 0:14:09.120 the guy, and honestly, I think we have so many 0:14:09.160 --> 0:14:10.240 questions for you, Joseph. 0:14:10.320 --> 0:14:14.960 Buckle up, Buckle up, Joseph. Rip that band aid off, 0:14:15.040 --> 0:14:16.040 right exactly. 0:14:16.440 --> 0:14:18.280 Yeah, I'm buckled up. I'm ready. 0:14:18.440 --> 0:14:21.160 What do you think in the Long Island Cage, Joseph? 0:14:21.240 --> 0:14:24.200 What do you think about the judge ruling one way 0:14:24.280 --> 0:14:26.680 or the other about the DNA evidence? 0:14:27.280 --> 0:14:28.600 Should it be allowed. 0:14:29.120 --> 0:14:30.040 And what's different about it? 0:14:30.080 --> 0:14:32.680 I think that it should. Yeah, Well, you know, what 0:14:32.720 --> 0:14:36.440 they're talking about is utilizing what's referred to as nuclear 0:14:36.520 --> 0:14:42.360 DNA as opposed to DNA studies where you're dealing with 0:14:43.040 --> 0:14:46.760 greatly degraded DNA, which this is, by the way, but 0:14:46.760 --> 0:14:50.200 they're going to apply nuclear testing to it, and they've 0:14:50.240 --> 0:14:53.680 come up with some interesting results. You know, over period 0:14:53.720 --> 0:14:56.600 of time, biological specimens break down, so you have to 0:14:56.640 --> 0:14:59.840 do everything you can to try to enhance those. What's 0:15:00.120 --> 0:15:03.280 really fascinating I found in this particular case is that 0:15:03.400 --> 0:15:06.160 the defense in is pre trial hearing that they had 0:15:06.440 --> 0:15:09.840 some time ago, they actually now get this. They actually 0:15:09.920 --> 0:15:13.440 use the defense attorney actually used the term magic. And 0:15:13.480 --> 0:15:16.120 I was talking recently at a conference and whatnot. It's 0:15:16.160 --> 0:15:19.720 almost like I had visions of him describing that they'd 0:15:19.720 --> 0:15:22.880 suddenly discovered fire for the first time. You know, this 0:15:22.960 --> 0:15:25.880 is not magic. This is something that's been used literally 0:15:25.920 --> 0:15:29.120 in healthcare for years and years. What's it used for, well, 0:15:29.400 --> 0:15:34.160 to study disease with and it's validated in a medical community. Okay. 0:15:34.280 --> 0:15:37.880 But here's the rub. It's in order for something to 0:15:37.960 --> 0:15:41.760 be admitted and used in court, particularly news technology, I 0:15:41.760 --> 0:15:44.640 mean new technology, it has to go through a series 0:15:45.080 --> 0:15:47.560 of gates, if you will. And there's two ways to 0:15:47.600 --> 0:15:50.400 look at it. You have Daubert States, which is much 0:15:50.440 --> 0:15:54.000 more rigorous, which New York is not a Daubert state, 0:15:54.280 --> 0:15:57.920 as reportedly progressive as they are. There's still a Fry state. 0:15:57.960 --> 0:16:00.240 There's only four Fries states left. And you know United 0:16:00.240 --> 0:16:04.360 States they use Fry. The bar is much lower for them. 0:16:04.560 --> 0:16:09.160 And so break that down to generalized. Yeah, well, with 0:16:09.360 --> 0:16:12.280 Fry being in a Fry state, it's like the bar 0:16:12.480 --> 0:16:16.000 is much lower, Okay, in order to get to get 0:16:16.800 --> 0:16:20.600 evidence admitted into court, it's the way it's phrase generally 0:16:20.880 --> 0:16:25.800 is general scientific community acceptance, if you will. All right, 0:16:26.120 --> 0:16:32.040 very very proper. Now there has to be published over 0:16:32.080 --> 0:16:35.000 it very rigorous, that sort of thing that doesn't exist here. 0:16:35.080 --> 0:16:37.320 I suspect that it will get admitted, no use it. 0:16:37.640 --> 0:16:38.720 Well, I was just going to ask you that. 0:16:38.840 --> 0:16:41.600 So because they're this fry state, they have a lower bar, 0:16:41.800 --> 0:16:44.640 so you would think that it would be allowed then, right, 0:16:44.680 --> 0:16:49.440 because it's new, and I guess the defense is proclaiming 0:16:49.520 --> 0:16:54.240 that this is not scientifically accepted anywhere. 0:16:55.840 --> 0:16:58.560 That's what they're saying. But yet you have a huge 0:16:58.640 --> 0:17:01.840 volume of the stuff. The nuclear DNA has been used 0:17:01.880 --> 0:17:04.680 for years and years worldwide in the medical community. 0:17:05.160 --> 0:17:07.199 Oh okay, well, we're going to find out if the 0:17:07.280 --> 0:17:10.040 judge allows this evidence into the humor and trial, what 0:17:10.080 --> 0:17:11.400 could this mean for his defense? 0:17:11.440 --> 0:17:14.680 Do you think I mean, it's going to be Yeah, 0:17:14.880 --> 0:17:16.800 if you're asking me, I think that it's going to be. 0:17:17.560 --> 0:17:21.359 It's going to be difficult for the defense to overcome. Simply, 0:17:22.240 --> 0:17:25.320 the numbers are astronomical, you know, and we'll hear about 0:17:25.440 --> 0:17:29.240 these astronomical two months in a row, astronomical numbers in 0:17:29.400 --> 0:17:33.359 both in both the Hurman case and in Coberger's case. 0:17:33.760 --> 0:17:37.199 These numbers are mind blowing. When you get into this 0:17:37.320 --> 0:17:39.840 arithmetic and you begin to think about what are the 0:17:39.880 --> 0:17:42.560 odds Now, for years and years we thought about things 0:17:42.600 --> 0:17:45.960 like blood typing, ABO grouping and all of that. You're 0:17:45.960 --> 0:17:48.080 talking about one in one hundred and twenty nine thousand. 0:17:48.160 --> 0:17:50.520 When you start to talk to I mean one like 0:17:50.680 --> 0:17:54.360 one in one hundred and forty nine people might have 0:17:54.520 --> 0:17:58.040 av grouping or ab pause grouping or ab neg grouping. 0:17:58.160 --> 0:18:02.720 You're talking about quintillion in this case. And that's that's 0:18:02.760 --> 0:18:06.600 the fight. That's the fight not want to have, and 0:18:06.640 --> 0:18:08.200 that's what they're facing right now. 0:18:08.359 --> 0:18:09.000 Well, plus the. 0:18:09.040 --> 0:18:13.000 Hair from the daughter and the wife. Right there's it's 0:18:13.040 --> 0:18:15.680 not just him, right am I collecting that? 0:18:16.080 --> 0:18:19.240 Right? Yeah, You've got these. So you've got the association 0:18:19.400 --> 0:18:23.680 here between these two other people that otherwise might be outliers, 0:18:23.720 --> 0:18:27.160 but they're really not. They're domiciled in this location along 0:18:27.200 --> 0:18:30.000 with a guy that has not been convicted, that has 0:18:30.040 --> 0:18:32.600 been accused of some of the most heinous crimes you know, 0:18:32.720 --> 0:18:35.600 up and down the Eastern Seaboard. It's compared to up 0:18:35.600 --> 0:18:37.640 and down the Eastern Seaboard in years and years. When 0:18:37.680 --> 0:18:39.640 you begin to think about the volume of the things 0:18:39.640 --> 0:18:43.280 that he's been accused of and also facilitating them, maybe 0:18:43.440 --> 0:18:46.679 at the same domicile, using the same vehicle. All these 0:18:46.720 --> 0:18:48.800 sorts of things begin to play into it and the 0:18:48.960 --> 0:18:52.040 science I think, and of course I'm kind of partial. 0:18:52.160 --> 0:18:54.000 I think the science is going to be the tale 0:18:54.000 --> 0:18:54.760 of the tape. 0:18:54.480 --> 0:18:56.200 Here I do too, just agree. 0:18:56.400 --> 0:18:59.119 Can I ask you just about the home itself where 0:18:59.200 --> 0:19:02.119 Rex Nuerman and his family lived. As a reminder, he 0:19:02.160 --> 0:19:05.400 was a married man, two children, one with special needs. 0:19:05.480 --> 0:19:08.440 His daughter recently was you know, quoted as saying that 0:19:08.600 --> 0:19:11.760 it's you know, it is possible I'm paraphrasing that her 0:19:11.800 --> 0:19:15.360 father is the Gilgo Beach killer. His daughter, Victoria, took 0:19:15.359 --> 0:19:17.640 the train with him to work every day where he 0:19:17.800 --> 0:19:20.480 was an architect in New York City. So this was 0:19:20.520 --> 0:19:24.200 like an average man doing very non average things. 0:19:24.520 --> 0:19:25.080 The house. 0:19:25.440 --> 0:19:27.760 Much has been made about there being sort of this 0:19:27.880 --> 0:19:33.720 dungeon where unthinkable things were happening to the accused victim, 0:19:33.880 --> 0:19:37.200 allegedly allegedly allegedly that you know, some of these women 0:19:37.240 --> 0:19:42.080 were dragged there and kept alive and frankly tortured. Think 0:19:42.200 --> 0:19:45.000 silence of the Lambs type style. Is there forensics to 0:19:45.040 --> 0:19:48.840 point to that would that you would agree with that assertion? 0:19:49.880 --> 0:19:54.560 Well, I think couple couple structurally with that environment which 0:19:54.600 --> 0:19:57.480 these things could have allegedly taken place of along with 0:19:57.720 --> 0:20:02.159 this list that he created to do list, which absolutely 0:20:02.320 --> 0:20:05.200 if for folks that are not familiar with it, if 0:20:05.200 --> 0:20:08.800 you actually read this thing, it will send a chill 0:20:08.920 --> 0:20:12.440 up your spine like no other bit of evidence that's 0:20:12.480 --> 0:20:14.600 out there. And one of the things that they talk about, 0:20:14.800 --> 0:20:18.720 or that he allegedly talks about in this list is 0:20:18.119 --> 0:20:21.400 this idea of the hard point, and a hard point 0:20:21.440 --> 0:20:24.960 is generally something that engineers, structural engineers, architects talk about 0:20:25.280 --> 0:20:28.800