Speaker 1: This program features the individual opinions of the hosts, guests,
Speaker 1: and callers, and not necessarily those of the producer, the station,
Speaker 1: its affiliates, or sponsors. This is True Crime Tonight.
Speaker 2: Welcome to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio, where we talk
Speaker 2: true crime all the time. It's Sunday, June fifteenth. Happy
Speaker 2: Father's Day to all the great dads out there. We
Speaker 2: have a stack night a headlines tonight. The jury is
Speaker 2: finally deliberating. Will Karen Reid finally get her verdict this week?
Speaker 2: I think it's going to be tomorrow. We are also
Speaker 2: catching up on all things puff Daddy in the trial continues.
Speaker 2: And then we have our special guest who will be
Speaker 2: here all the time, the KT crew Joseph Scott Morgan,
Speaker 2: the greatest forensics expert of all time, also the host
Speaker 2: of Body Bags. He is joining us later in the
Speaker 2: show and talking to us about Long Island, the Idaho
Speaker 2: College murderers, the works, and all of that plus more.
Speaker 2: I'm Stephanie Laidecker and I head up KAT Studios where
Speaker 2: we make true crime podcasts and documentaries and I get
Speaker 2: to do that every day with Courtney Armstraw and Body
Speaker 2: Move In So Body Karen Reid, we're there.
Speaker 3: Finally, finally. You think we're gonna have a verdict tomorrow.
Speaker 3: I do, So I'm gonna I'm gonna go with late Tuesday,
Speaker 3: early Wednesday.
Speaker 4: That's your betods.
Speaker 3: Well, I mean you seem like it seems like very
Speaker 3: black and white, right like you if you're not really up,
Speaker 3: you know where you need to be by now there's
Speaker 3: a problem, right, And I totally get you, I absolutely do.
Speaker 3: If the jury comes back Monday, I think it's gonna
Speaker 3: be not guilty all the way down the board, like
Speaker 3: I really do. But I but I think there's gonna
Speaker 3: be some contention. I think there's gonna be some people
Speaker 3: in the jury room who have some questions, and I
Speaker 3: think it could go because they think it a full
Speaker 3: day Friday, right, They didn't get a full day.
Speaker 4: They only had two hours under.
Speaker 3: Flowers, right, So I think they need at least a
Speaker 3: full day. So that's Monday and then most of Tuesday,
Speaker 3: I think they need, if not all of Tuesday, and
Speaker 3: then we'll hear something on Wednesday.
Speaker 4: There's I think to the optics of that. Also, this has.
Speaker 2: Been a long time coming Karen Reid's retrial. If you
Speaker 2: haven't been following closely. Karen Reid. This is her second
Speaker 2: trial for the death of her boyfriend John O'Keefe. She's
Speaker 2: accused of basically running him over with her lexus in
Speaker 2: the middle of the night and fleeing the scene in
Speaker 2: the middle of a snowstorm under the influence of alcohol.
Speaker 2: And look, she had a hung jury the first time.
Speaker 2: This is the second round. She feels as though the
Speaker 2: defense did a really great job on her behalf. So
Speaker 2: she feels as though she's been well represented. And look,
Speaker 2: at this point, it's the final stretch. It's in the
Speaker 2: juror's hands.
Speaker 4: And you know, I have to agree with her.
Speaker 3: She has been well represented, and I think her defense
Speaker 3: actually did a really great job. But I also will
Speaker 3: say the prosecution did a great job with what they had.
Speaker 3: I think the investigation itself, which you know though of
Speaker 3: course the state that well, the prosecution doesn't really have
Speaker 3: a huge pardon, you know, like they're not out on
Speaker 3: the scene, you know, colecting samples with solo cups. Right,
Speaker 3: it's not it's not the lawyers that are doing that, true.
Speaker 3: But so yeah, Friday wrapped up, the jury started, there
Speaker 3: was a swarm of reed supporters out in front. Like
Speaker 3: you know, last the first trial, it seemed like there
Speaker 3: was a constant surge of people, but this retrial there
Speaker 3: hasn't been, you know, that big of a crowd. But
Speaker 3: Friday we saw a big crowd. So that must have
Speaker 3: been nice for Karen to see as she exited the courthouse.
Speaker 4: You know, I obviously I love that.
Speaker 3: Obviously she didn't testify, so that's really no big surprise.
Speaker 3: But I kind of wanted to go Courtney, and I thought,
Speaker 3: and you can tell me what you think about the
Speaker 3: Stephanie Courtney, and I thought maybe we would go through
Speaker 3: the highlights of each closing statement, like I'll do the
Speaker 3: prosecution side, and Courtney would do, you know, the defensive side,
Speaker 3: and we would maybe go.
Speaker 5: To do it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, let's go because there are some really big ticket
Speaker 2: items on either side. And frankly, you guys are legit divided.
Speaker 2: So this is a fun exercise because it's authentic.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 3: So one thing that really kind of put everything in
Speaker 3: perspective for me in regards to the prosecution who it
Speaker 3: was done by Prosecutor Hank Brennan. One of the things
Speaker 3: that he said that really kind of brought everything home
Speaker 3: for me was at how John's niece testified that John
Speaker 3: would just walk away from arguments, like if him and
Speaker 3: Karen were arguing, he would just like walk away, and
Speaker 3: Karen would follow him room to room and just continue
Speaker 3: to fight. Okay, that just kind of this goes to
Speaker 3: my theory about what happened that night. So when he
Speaker 3: said that, I was kind of like confirmation bias. Here
Speaker 3: we go. It's working over time in my head right now,
Speaker 3: because I really think that, you know, they were arguing
Speaker 3: that night and things, you know, again, they were both
Speaker 3: you know, wasted right and emotional, and I think either
Speaker 3: he threw the whiskey glass at the tailgate or was
Speaker 3: bending down because he dropped it and she was backing
Speaker 3: up twenty four miles an hour, and either I don't
Speaker 3: necessarily think she hit him, but I think he kind
Speaker 3: of maybe got startled or you know, lost his balance something,
Speaker 3: and that's what happened.
Speaker 2: And she unknowingly, in your unknowingly regardless, she left, not
Speaker 2: thinking she was leaving her boyfriend for dead in the snow,
Speaker 2: but rather that she was just peeling out and he
Speaker 2: was going up the driveway to see his buds, right,
Speaker 2: and by all accounts she wanted to go home right.
Speaker 4: She was for this night was done.
Speaker 2: She was sick in and out with the friends, and
Speaker 2: it had gone on for too long.
Speaker 4: She wanted to go home right, and then he went,
Speaker 4: you know. He argued that.
Speaker 3: He argues that John O'Keefe was struck with the SUV
Speaker 3: after a night of drinking and then she just like
Speaker 3: abandoned him in the snow. He highlighted key evidence like
Speaker 3: the tail like fragments again read's own words and voicemails
Speaker 3: and text messages, you know, expressing her hatred for John
Speaker 3: but again they were fighting right, and her significant impairment,
Speaker 3: he mentioned, you know those he he referenced her own words,
Speaker 3: he said, I don't She said, I don't think I
Speaker 3: hit him, but I could have clipped him. In the
Speaker 3: documentary series which they played for by the way, in court, that.
Speaker 4: Was their big ending moment.
Speaker 2: She regret that or not, but look, I know at
Speaker 2: the end of the day, she's being candid. And she's
Speaker 2: also said to have said at the scene when discovering
Speaker 2: his body, I killed him, or I hit him, I
Speaker 2: hit him. I mean that has also been turned around
Speaker 2: by the defense to say I didn't hit him. I
Speaker 2: didn't hit him, and maybe that got lost in translation.
Speaker 6: Also that it's and I will not hop in after
Speaker 6: this on the prosecutions.
Speaker 7: This is my time, cord time, but one thing.
Speaker 6: But it also is a common trauma response of when
Speaker 6: you are literally shocked to say things like it's my fault,
Speaker 6: I do wherever it is anyway, that's it.
Speaker 4: I know, I can, I can absolutely agree with that.
Speaker 4: So I thought Hank did a great.
Speaker 3: Job and in line with you know, the iPhone data
Speaker 3: shows he wasn't in the house. The temperature the temperature
Speaker 3: data on the iPhone, how it never you know, it
Speaker 3: stayed consistent with him basically laying on top of it
Speaker 3: all night. The tail light fragments from her lexus are
Speaker 3: the ones that were found in the yard. You know,
Speaker 3: her backing up at twenty four miles per hour literally
Speaker 3: at the same time that his phone stopped moving for
Speaker 3: the rest of the night. Combined with all that, I
Speaker 3: believe Karen Read is guilty, and I believe the state
Speaker 3: did as good as they could. But I think they're
Speaker 3: going to find her not guilty.
Speaker 4: And you think she'll go away till when No, I
Speaker 4: don't think her life.
Speaker 3: No, I don't think they're going to find her guilty.
Speaker 4: I don't think.
Speaker 3: I don't think that they've proved it beyond a reasonable doubt.
Speaker 4: So you think she did it, but she'll get away
Speaker 4: with it. I do, I do.
Speaker 5: So.
Speaker 6: We have heard the prosecution side the state arrests for
Speaker 6: the defense. The closing argument was given by Alan Jackson.
Speaker 6: I think he did an exemplary job. Body is making motions.
Speaker 2: As Okay, did somebody just appear with the gavel?
Speaker 4: Okay?
Speaker 2: Court is back in session. Continue, sorry, courtneyarmstets Okay. The
Speaker 2: prosecution has.
Speaker 6: Not proven their SUV collision theory beyond a reasonable doubt,
Speaker 6: the injuries were not consistent with being hit by a car,
Speaker 6: and in fact, no medical professional on either side, no
Speaker 6: medical professional backs up the fact that John O'Keeffe was
Speaker 6: hit by a car. That obviously includes the Commonwealth's medical examiner.
Speaker 6: John's arm, which the prosecution expert alleges was hit by
Speaker 6: a tail light, It was not bruised or broken. And
Speaker 6: there was a really interesting moment in the closing arguments
Speaker 6: where the defense said we had to dig up these
Speaker 6: X rays of John's arm and they hadn't. He made
Speaker 6: it seem like they were kind of trying to cover
Speaker 6: it up. But bottom line, this arm that was allegedly
Speaker 6: hit by a six thousand pound vehicle was not broken.
Speaker 4: That is a shocker, a shocker to me. I just
Speaker 4: don't believe he was hit with the SUV. I mean
Speaker 4: to me, it's not a huge shocker. I don't know.
Speaker 4: But why the cover.
Speaker 6: But that because they thought it's the whole prosecution's case
Speaker 6: that they were hit.
Speaker 7: So that is what they are. That is what they are.
Speaker 6: Stipulaight also brought up in closing arguments excuse me, taillight tampering.
Speaker 6: So Nicholas Barrows testified about the damage to the tail
Speaker 6: light and the fact that it was more extensive in
Speaker 6: a photo taken at the police garage than it was
Speaker 6: when he sees the vehicle at Karen's parents' house.
Speaker 7: Okay, so that's that is a big deal.
Speaker 6: Suspicious behavior from Brian Higgins from here to sundown. You know,
Speaker 6: as the jurors, we've seen the surveillance of Higgins getting
Speaker 6: aggressive with victim John O'Keeffe at the bar earlier that night,
Speaker 6: and then one hour after Karen Reid left the scene
Speaker 6: at one thirty am, then Brian Higgins was back down
Speaker 6: at the Campton Police station doing paperwork question Mark.
Speaker 7: There was so much.
Speaker 6: Misconduct by Michael Proctor, the lead investigator, even take aside
Speaker 6: the bias text messages that we've talked about where he
Speaker 6: said very disgusting things, hard to do, hard to Karen
Speaker 6: read side, But even taking that out, he had a
Speaker 6: refusal to look behind beyond Karen as a suspect. There
Speaker 6: was almost no investigation. There was literally no investigation into
Speaker 6: the Alpert's house. The Perts, the homeowners did not come
Speaker 6: out at all that morning.
Speaker 3: They only went in for like five minutes to interview
Speaker 3: Jen McCabe.
Speaker 2: Right, I was gonna say in Jenn McCabe, she's really
Speaker 2: the one who's basically saying I did it.
Speaker 4: I did it.
Speaker 2: She heard Read's first hand confession. Where's all the investigating
Speaker 2: into the people that were there? Courtney, Courtney, did you
Speaker 2: go to law school?
Speaker 4: There was over the weekends.
Speaker 3: Got me listen, I'm sensing some bias here.
Speaker 6: There was no crime scene tape to secure the scene.
Speaker 6: These are facts A neighbor's home which had a ring
Speaker 6: camera pointed directly at the Alpert's house. It wasn't visited
Speaker 6: that home and therefore the video was lost. These are
Speaker 6: investigative absolute failures that prove that you know, they were
Speaker 6: not looking at anyone but Karen Reid. And then also
Speaker 6: with the tail light, so the tail light was completely
Speaker 6: the internal workings were totally gone, right, but at which
Speaker 6: meant it would not light up at all. But there
Speaker 6: was a photo at five seven am, many hours after
Speaker 6: she allegedly hit Schaineakeef where her tailight was illuminated. And
Speaker 6: yet then that's right after that.
Speaker 4: That's right, it was totally white, right because the red Yeah,
Speaker 4: that's right, that's right.
Speaker 2: I know. I would like to know if in fact
Speaker 2: Karen Reid is found innocent not guilty tomorrow. My prediction
Speaker 2: if that happens, can charges still be placed on, say,
Speaker 2: for example, Brian Higgins, who's come up many times allegedly,
Speaker 2: allegedly allegedly is is can the state prosecute Yeah, of course.
Speaker 3: They can't prosecute Karen Reid, but certainly they could go,
Speaker 3: well we went back to the drawing board, and you know,
Speaker 3: but I mean, I would imagine that the Higgins defense
Speaker 3: would be like, well, then why'd you prosecute?
Speaker 4: Why'd you try to prosecute Karen?
Speaker 3: Read twice in a row like why you know now
Speaker 3: you're just looking for a fall guy, you know, But
Speaker 3: I don't know.
Speaker 4: But ye, it's a bad look I suppose to badbody.
Speaker 6: Yeah, so both the prosecution and defense have rested. When
Speaker 6: we come back, Stephanie will give her verdict. We're going
Speaker 6: to continue following this and we are joined by forensic
Speaker 6: expert Joseph Scott Morgan. He has insight on three major
Speaker 6: criminal cases. Then we're breaking down week five at the
Speaker 6: trial in Shan Diddy Combs keep it here on True
Speaker 6: Crime tonight.
Speaker 2: So we were really highly debating this whole Karen Reid's stuff,
Speaker 2: and we're going to push that on until later in
Speaker 2: the show. I'm still a little bit divided, although both
Speaker 2: of you, I must say, have done a really great
Speaker 2: job presenting the facts. But now on to our next body.
Speaker 2: Where should we start with Long Island? So the alleged
Speaker 2: Long Island serial killer Rex Hewerman. He'll be back in
Speaker 2: court on Tuesday. This is court, by the way, the judge.
Speaker 6: Will continue to weigh in on whether or not to
Speaker 6: allow the key DNA evidence into the trial. Rex Huwerman
Speaker 6: was arrested in twenty twenty three on suspicion of being
Speaker 6: the serial killer allegedly responsible for eleven murders in Long
Speaker 6: Island from nineteen ninety three to two thousand and eleven.
Speaker 6: It's important to note he has been only linked and
Speaker 6: accused of seven of the murders. The other remaining ones
Speaker 6: are alleged and there is going to be a June
Speaker 6: seventeenth hearing and prosecutors want to admit cutting edge genetic
Speaker 6: evidence and the defense has strong objections and we will
Speaker 6: hear more about that when they're back in court.
Speaker 2: Well, I have a sneaking suspicion that Joseph Scott Morgan,
Speaker 2: forensics expert, host of bodybags and also worldwide scholar himself
Speaker 2: Jacksonville State University, is here in the house.
Speaker 4: Joseph, what do you have to say for yourself?
Speaker 5: Oh? Not much, but thanks for having me on Hoe.
Speaker 5: I've been waiting to join you guys now low these
Speaker 5: couple of weeks and it's great to be on We
Speaker 5: all to see if shining faces and hear your lovely voices.
Speaker 2: Joseph is also Katie Family and he is a part
Speaker 2: of the crew here, going to be with us often.
Speaker 4: He does all of our podcasts as well.
Speaker 2: He's been on all of our documentaries, so he's he's
Speaker 2: the guy, and honestly, I think we have so many
Speaker 2: questions for you, Joseph.
Speaker 4: Buckle up, Buckle up, Joseph. Rip that band aid off,
Speaker 4: right exactly.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I'm buckled up. I'm ready.
Speaker 6: What do you think in the Long Island Cage, Joseph?
Speaker 6: What do you think about the judge ruling one way
Speaker 6: or the other about the DNA evidence?
Speaker 7: Should it be allowed.
Speaker 4: And what's different about it?
Speaker 5: I think that it should. Yeah, Well, you know, what
Speaker 5: they're talking about is utilizing what's referred to as nuclear
Speaker 5: DNA as opposed to DNA studies where you're dealing with
Speaker 5: greatly degraded DNA, which this is, by the way, but
Speaker 5: they're going to apply nuclear testing to it, and they've
Speaker 5: come up with some interesting results. You know, over period
Speaker 5: of time, biological specimens break down, so you have to
Speaker 5: do everything you can to try to enhance those. What's
Speaker 5: really fascinating I found in this particular case is that
Speaker 5: the defense in is pre trial hearing that they had
Speaker 5: some time ago, they actually now get this. They actually
Speaker 5: use the defense attorney actually used the term magic. And
Speaker 5: I was talking recently at a conference and whatnot. It's
Speaker 5: almost like I had visions of him describing that they'd
Speaker 5: suddenly discovered fire for the first time. You know, this
Speaker 5: is not magic. This is something that's been used literally
Speaker 5: in healthcare for years and years. What's it used for, well,
Speaker 5: to study disease with and it's validated in a medical community. Okay.
Speaker 5: But here's the rub. It's in order for something to
Speaker 5: be admitted and used in court, particularly news technology, I
Speaker 5: mean new technology, it has to go through a series
Speaker 5: of gates, if you will. And there's two ways to
Speaker 5: look at it. You have Daubert States, which is much
Speaker 5: more rigorous, which New York is not a Daubert state,
Speaker 5: as reportedly progressive as they are. There's still a Fry state.
Speaker 5: There's only four Fries states left. And you know United
Speaker 5: States they use Fry. The bar is much lower for them.
Speaker 5: And so break that down to generalized. Yeah, well, with
Speaker 5: Fry being in a Fry state, it's like the bar
Speaker 5: is much lower, Okay, in order to get to get
Speaker 5: evidence admitted into court, it's the way it's phrase generally
Speaker 5: is general scientific community acceptance, if you will. All right,
Speaker 5: very very proper. Now there has to be published over
Speaker 5: it very rigorous, that sort of thing that doesn't exist here.
Speaker 5: I suspect that it will get admitted, no use it.
Speaker 4: Well, I was just going to ask you that.
Speaker 3: So because they're this fry state, they have a lower bar,
Speaker 3: so you would think that it would be allowed then, right,
Speaker 3: because it's new, and I guess the defense is proclaiming
Speaker 3: that this is not scientifically accepted anywhere.
Speaker 5: That's what they're saying. But yet you have a huge
Speaker 5: volume of the stuff. The nuclear DNA has been used
Speaker 5: for years and years worldwide in the medical community.
Speaker 3: Oh okay, well, we're going to find out if the
Speaker 3: judge allows this evidence into the humor and trial, what
Speaker 3: could this mean for his defense?
Speaker 5: Do you think I mean, it's going to be Yeah,
Speaker 5: if you're asking me, I think that it's going to be.
Speaker 5: It's going to be difficult for the defense to overcome. Simply,
Speaker 5: the numbers are astronomical, you know, and we'll hear about
Speaker 5: these astronomical two months in a row, astronomical numbers in
Speaker 5: both in both the Hurman case and in Coberger's case.
Speaker 5: These numbers are mind blowing. When you get into this
Speaker 5: arithmetic and you begin to think about what are the
Speaker 5: odds Now, for years and years we thought about things
Speaker 5: like blood typing, ABO grouping and all of that. You're
Speaker 5: talking about one in one hundred and twenty nine thousand.
Speaker 5: When you start to talk to I mean one like
Speaker 5: one in one hundred and forty nine people might have
Speaker 5: av grouping or ab pause grouping or ab neg grouping.
Speaker 5: You're talking about quintillion in this case. And that's that's
Speaker 5: the fight. That's the fight not want to have, and
Speaker 5: that's what they're facing right now.
Speaker 4: Well, plus the.
Speaker 3: Hair from the daughter and the wife. Right there's it's
Speaker 3: not just him, right am I collecting that?
Speaker 5: Right? Yeah, You've got these. So you've got the association
Speaker 5: here between these two other people that otherwise might be outliers,
Speaker 5: but they're really not. They're domiciled in this location along
Speaker 5: with a guy that has not been convicted, that has
Speaker 5: been accused of some of the most heinous crimes you know,
Speaker 5: up and down the Eastern Seaboard. It's compared to up
Speaker 5: and down the Eastern Seaboard in years and years. When
Speaker 5: you begin to think about the volume of the things
Speaker 5: that he's been accused of and also facilitating them, maybe
Speaker 5: at the same domicile, using the same vehicle. All these
Speaker 5: sorts of things begin to play into it and the
Speaker 5: science I think, and of course I'm kind of partial.
Speaker 5: I think the science is going to be the tale
Speaker 5: of the tape.
Speaker 4: Here I do too, just agree.
Speaker 2: Can I ask you just about the home itself where
Speaker 2: Rex Nuerman and his family lived. As a reminder, he
Speaker 2: was a married man, two children, one with special needs.
Speaker 2: His daughter recently was you know, quoted as saying that
Speaker 2: it's you know, it is possible I'm paraphrasing that her
Speaker 2: father is the Gilgo Beach killer. His daughter, Victoria, took
Speaker 2: the train with him to work every day where he
Speaker 2: was an architect in New York City. So this was
Speaker 2: like an average man doing very non average things.
Speaker 4: The house.
Speaker 2: Much has been made about there being sort of this
Speaker 2: dungeon where unthinkable things were happening to the accused victim,
Speaker 2: allegedly allegedly allegedly that you know, some of these women
Speaker 2: were dragged there and kept alive and frankly tortured. Think
Speaker 2: silence of the Lambs type style. Is there forensics to
Speaker 2: point to that would that you would agree with that assertion?
Speaker 5: Well, I think couple couple structurally with that environment which
Speaker 5: these things could have allegedly taken place of along with
Speaker 5: this list that he created to do list, which absolutely
Speaker 5: if for folks that are not familiar with it, if
Speaker 5: you actually read this thing, it will send a chill
Speaker 5: up your spine like no other bit of evidence that's
Speaker 5: out there. And one of the things that they talk about,
Speaker 5: or that he allegedly talks about in this list is
Speaker 5: this idea of the hard point, and a hard point
Speaker 5: is generally something that engineers, structural engineers, architects talk about
Speaker 5: like an adjoining area, you know, when you're building a structure,
Speaker 5: But for the hard point here, this is also something
Speaker 5: that that kind of filters into statistic behavior with sexual predators,
Speaker 5: where you can actually suspend somebody or hang them from
Speaker 5: like a hook or an eyebolt or one of these things.
Speaker 5: And that's that's very chilling, you know when you think
Speaker 5: about that and that dark, dirty basement down there. I've
Speaker 5: actually been to the house. I stood outside of it,
Speaker 5: took photographs that sort of thing. I don't think I
Speaker 5: was supposed to be there, but I was, And it
Speaker 5: stands out like a source on these houses are the
Speaker 5: lawns are immaculate. They're not huge houses, but worked a
Speaker 5: lot of money in Long Island and this thing, you know,
Speaker 5: for an architect to live there, it is pale. And
Speaker 5: you began to think about the expeer of the house.
Speaker 5: And I don't know if you can read much into
Speaker 5: what went on relative to life inside the house by
Speaker 5: what's still on the outside. But it was a real,
Speaker 5: real dumpster fire.
Speaker 2: It's true there, you know, apparently were hoarders, you know,
Speaker 2: so sometimes you know, hoarding could be thought of as
Speaker 2: a mode of depression, right, So maybe it wasn't the
Speaker 2: most happy home. But again, who would imagine that in
Speaker 2: a suburban neighborhood where people have really nice lives and
Speaker 2: you know your neighbors, and people are walking dogs that
Speaker 2: you don't have, you know, girls hanging from the ceiling
Speaker 2: in the basement when the kids are home.
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, I got to tell you, if I was
Speaker 5: out walking my dog, I'd get on the other sidewalk
Speaker 5: across the street and walk my dog. Just by the
Speaker 5: external appearance.
Speaker 4: Of this thing, unbelievable, Joseph.
Speaker 6: And I know, you know, this hasn't gone to trial yet,
Speaker 6: but as of today, what do you think is the
Speaker 6: most compelling forensic evidence?
Speaker 5: Yeah, we've heard about I think probably a big part
Speaker 5: of this is going to be a placement of the
Speaker 5: bodies and the level to which the bodies were memorialized
Speaker 5: by by him with the wrapping, the using of the
Speaker 5: burlap sacks and that sort of thing. That consistency there,
Speaker 5: I think, and I think probably and this is more circumstantial.
Speaker 5: But going to the lifestyle these poor women led, you know,
Speaker 5: living hand and mouth existences as sex workers, and a
Speaker 5: lot of have been made about that over the years,
Speaker 5: I think degrading them and no one deserves what they
Speaker 5: got at all on any level. We definitely agree car
Speaker 5: in itself, Yeah.
Speaker 4: We definitely agree there.
Speaker 3: We're going to be back with Joseph Scott Morgan to
Speaker 3: break down the forensics and other major cases in the news,
Speaker 3: from murders to a bombing with the mysterious motive and
Speaker 3: a manifesto.
Speaker 4: Then we're going to be.
Speaker 3: Discussing week five in the trial against Sean did he come?
Speaker 3: There were some more major twists. Keep it here on
Speaker 3: True Krime Tonight.
Speaker 2: Forensic expert Joseph Scott Morgan is breaking down all the
Speaker 2: latest cases of the summer. He has some very unique
Speaker 2: insight the Idaho College murders. If you've been following us closely.
Speaker 2: There's a report that just came out that there's a
Speaker 2: video potentially of the door dash driver, and we're not
Speaker 2: even going to talk about it quite yet because we
Speaker 2: haven't verified and we want to make sure that we're
Speaker 2: sharing information that is both timely and accurate. So more
Speaker 2: on that tomorrow. But again, lots to uncover in all
Speaker 2: things Idaho. Body, where should we begin.
Speaker 3: Well, I was going to talk about the door drash driver,
Speaker 3: but you took the wind out of my sails.
Speaker 4: Oh baby, you got to hold that thought.
Speaker 3: No, we do have to. We want to make sure
Speaker 3: that we're giving the correct information. So we got a
Speaker 3: lot to look at with that. But you know, this Wednesday,
Speaker 3: of this upcoming Wednesday day, actually Judge Hipler is holding
Speaker 3: you know, a hearing to decide if the motion to
Speaker 3: delay his trial will be granted, So we'll definitely be
Speaker 3: covering that and whether or not his team can introduce
Speaker 3: the alternative suspect. Now, that portion of the hearing will
Speaker 3: be sealed, so we're not going to know what they
Speaker 3: talked about, but the portion of the hearing that's going
Speaker 3: to be discussing the delay will be you know, on
Speaker 3: their YouTube channel, so we'll be covering all of that.
Speaker 3: As a reminder, Korberger is a former PhD student in
Speaker 3: criminology and he's accused of fatally stabbing for University of
Speaker 3: Idaho students on November thirteenth of twenty twenty two. This
Speaker 3: happened in Moscow, Idaho, very close to the University of Idaho,
Speaker 3: and the victims were all really young. They were in
Speaker 3: their twenties, and they were all college students, so sometimes
Speaker 3: you'll hear it referred to as Idaho college murders.
Speaker 4: I have a question for Joseph.
Speaker 3: So there's so much to cover in this case, and
Speaker 3: I know we only get you for such a short time,
Speaker 3: but I have so many questions for you because this
Speaker 3: is a case really about forensics. Right, There's so much
Speaker 3: to cover, But let let's just start with the latest,
Speaker 3: which is the alternative suspect. Right. I think it's personally,
Speaker 3: I think it's nonsense. But what do you what are
Speaker 3: your thoughts on it?
Speaker 5: Why? Why is there not been anything up until this point?
Speaker 5: And I think that if the defense cares so much
Speaker 5: about the community, they think there's somebody else out there
Speaker 5: and they have an id on that person. Least the name.
Speaker 4: Release the name exactly, it would be dangerous.
Speaker 5: Yeah, you've got somebody, arguably from what we've heard, that
Speaker 5: has perpetrated horribly painous crime. I mean, they're saying the
Speaker 5: bloodiest they've ever seen. But yet this person's running about
Speaker 5: the countryside. So you don't have a name. You say
Speaker 5: that there's somebody, do you not care about the citizens
Speaker 5: up there? I think that that would be my supposition
Speaker 5: at this point. But that's just me, you know, And
Speaker 5: I find it interesting that nothing has come up. I
Speaker 5: think that probably how this is going to play out.
Speaker 5: They've talked about, you know, one of the young ladies
Speaker 5: upstairs had three contributors under her fingernails, and they're going to,
Speaker 5: you know, introduce this mystery person. Maybe I don't know,
Speaker 5: but that's something that I think is very curious. I'd
Speaker 5: like to know who it is. If that's what they're
Speaker 5: going to look for.
Speaker 3: I think they might be even using that the blood
Speaker 3: on that handrail, that might be something that they try
Speaker 3: to use as well. You know, I don't know if
Speaker 3: they ever identified the way it came from, but I
Speaker 3: think they're going to use that.
Speaker 5: We hadn't heard anything. I'm really wondering body if if
Speaker 5: that was if it was a non viable sample, you know,
Speaker 5: if it was just it compromised in some way, and
Speaker 5: it could be compromised both the ways. One of the
Speaker 5: ways it can be compromised is how it's collected. You know,
Speaker 5: how did they try to process it? Did they destroy it?
Speaker 5: You know? What was it?
Speaker 8: Was?
Speaker 5: It inconclusive And we're not necessarily on have all of
Speaker 5: those answers until the same makes it into the courtroom.
Speaker 2: And just as a for clarity, there's three pieces of
Speaker 2: evidence that we're talking about when it comes to this, right,
Speaker 2: it's the handrail that there is this unidentified and new,
Speaker 2: you know, little something also under victim Madison Mogan's fingernail,
Speaker 2: allegedly there's more DNA or additional like a mixture, a
Speaker 2: mixture which you know, by the way, I know this
Speaker 2: only because I get to work with Joseph so often.
Speaker 2: You know that we all have DNA under our fingernails, right,
Speaker 2: just by hugging on each other. I for sure have
Speaker 2: all of your DNA potentially under my fingernails just by
Speaker 2: greeting you and giving you hugs, right. And then also
Speaker 2: there's that glove and that too had a hit of
Speaker 2: something on it. Again, this is all stuff that they're throwing,
Speaker 2: you know, in his defense. But to Joseph's point, this
Speaker 2: happened in twenty twenty two. Has it been three years
Speaker 2: with a killer at large running around Moscow, Idaho?
Speaker 3: I think it's going to be like kind of like
Speaker 3: the alibi defense. It's going to be just a lot
Speaker 3: to do about nothing. It's going to be, you know,
Speaker 3: kind of similar to, oh, he was driving out looking
Speaker 3: at the stars on a cloudy night. I think it's
Speaker 3: much to do about nothing in my opinion, I'm only
Speaker 3: speaking for me, Joseph.
Speaker 6: I have just one more follow up about the the
Speaker 6: DNA quote mixture of three potential people under victim Madison
Speaker 6: Moogen's nails Colberger turned up inconclusive. How much weight should
Speaker 6: I give that? Because that, yeah, should that raise a flag?
Speaker 6: Not raise a flag?
Speaker 5: Don't think about how much weight you should give it.
Speaker 5: Think about how much weight the defense has given it
Speaker 5: because they didn't want to admit it, because you know,
Speaker 5: it leaves the door open. You know, they didn't want
Speaker 5: that admitted. They didn't want that introduced, so he cannot
Speaker 5: be included or excluded. I think that's that's key here,
Speaker 5: you know. So I'm not saying it's damning, but you know,
Speaker 5: my cousin, Vinny, your bill in the house blocked by block,
Speaker 5: you know, And so that's the way I look at it.
Speaker 5: And if they start screaming anytimes somebody starts screaming about
Speaker 5: something like this, you know that. You know, I don't
Speaker 5: want it to happen.
Speaker 2: Joseph, you and I were on the phone when these
Speaker 2: murders happened. I remember it like was yesterday. You were
Speaker 2: the first person I spoke to and when these murders
Speaker 2: had occurred, and we were all so shocked by just
Speaker 2: the sheer volume.
Speaker 4: Of blood and the overkill.
Speaker 2: And you know, you'll remember you've seen photos probably of
Speaker 2: the cement under the house.
Speaker 4: Literally it had blood dripping.
Speaker 2: The fact that there aren't more forensics, to me, is
Speaker 2: always slightly interesting in and of itself. Obviously, the house
Speaker 2: where this murder, these murders occurred has now been destroyed.
Speaker 2: That too, was very controversial. And what happens next, you know,
Speaker 2: this new leak from Dateline had some information that I'm
Speaker 2: curious if you have an opinion on that.
Speaker 5: Hell yeah, I've got an opinion on it. And I'll
Speaker 5: tell you why. I woke up on a Saturday morning
Speaker 5: to a tweet from somebody that said, what was it? Well,
Speaker 5: I guess he's a fan of Joe Scott forensics. Oh
Speaker 5: he watched your had flashed had flashed up on the
Speaker 5: dateline thing in that six week period. According to this
Speaker 5: data dump, apparently he had been watching some of the
Speaker 5: stuff that I was discussing. And my wife and I,
Speaker 5: as as our tradition, every single morning, we drink coffee,
Speaker 5: even on Saturday mornings, you know, and we're sitting there
Speaker 5: and I'm thinking, oh my god, So I had to
Speaker 5: go back and look at it. I didn't watch the program,
Speaker 5: and there it is. There's a screenshot, you know, and
Speaker 5: I'm thinking, and of course my wife is sitting there
Speaker 5: and she's she's thinking, this guy's this guy's watching you,
Speaker 5: you know, because we have weird things happen anyway, you know,
Speaker 5: I'll appear on programs and whatnot. But this was something unbelievable.
Speaker 5: But besides that, there's somebody that has released this right now.
Speaker 5: I mean, the media is going to do what the
Speaker 5: media does. That's their nature. However, what's the genesis of
Speaker 5: this data dump and this is a data dump, and
Speaker 5: you it's not just one piece. You've got CCTV images.
Speaker 5: You know, you've got still images, You've got all of
Speaker 5: this data. And then the stuff that comes up about
Speaker 5: positionality of Xana, and you know, we hear about all
Speaker 5: these different things that have kind of dropped in our lap.
Speaker 5: And then it's like, I think the next day, I
Speaker 5: heard somebody say, oh, there's going to be more, and
Speaker 5: I'm thinking that I can if I had been in
Speaker 5: this Judge Chambers, just as a fly on the wall,
Speaker 5: I can imagine his head was about to go nuclear
Speaker 5: and just explode because you know they moved thing, are
Speaker 5: they you know, reset it. They've had to move it
Speaker 5: to Ada County and now the house is gone, and
Speaker 5: you know, s fool guys is sitting back saying, what
Speaker 5: what else? What else can happen? At this point, nothing's
Speaker 5: off the table as far as I'm concerned.
Speaker 2: And it's an interesting, you know, juxtaposition, because on the
Speaker 2: one hand, you want to make sure it's a death
Speaker 2: sentence trial that Brian Coberger is getting the greatest defense possible.
Speaker 2: Right it's life and death, high stake situation, so they
Speaker 2: have to take their time to get through all the
Speaker 2: discovery associated with this case. However, on the flip of that,
Speaker 2: more time equals more loose lips and leaks and reasons
Speaker 2: and delays and alternate theories and jury pool issues. You know,
Speaker 2: the closer it gets, the harder it gets to keep
Speaker 2: information contained.
Speaker 5: It does. And plus let's don't forget about the families.
Speaker 5: They are in excruciating pain and it never ends. This
Speaker 5: is a death like death that they continue to relive
Speaker 5: every single.
Speaker 4: Day, especially on FI.
Speaker 5: There's no such thing as closure. Yeah, I don't fothersh that,
Speaker 5: there's nothing. There's no such I don't believe in closure,
Speaker 5: particularly when it comes to homicide. It goes on and on,
Speaker 5: and this is salt and a wound and just continues.
Speaker 4: It perpetuates itself, perpetuates itself.
Speaker 2: Either way, do you have a fast opinion about Karen
Speaker 2: read guilty not guilty? Not to go back to a
Speaker 2: previous segment, but I'd be remiss not to ask, Come on, Joseph,
Speaker 2: convince us, Yeah, guilty not guilty.
Speaker 5: I think, Oh geez, I'm going to say. I'm going
Speaker 5: to say, hum, Jerry, I'm going to say, yeah, I
Speaker 5: don't think Yeah, I don't think they're going to be
Speaker 5: able to come up with. I think it's going to
Speaker 5: split because they've got to twist it around so much.
Speaker 5: I think it's a massive confusion. That's what I think.
Speaker 5: I love to look at the evidence and look at
Speaker 5: it from that perspective, but for me, it's just it's
Speaker 5: so convoluted, the whole thing is, and it's even more
Speaker 5: convoluted second time around. So I really expected a better
Speaker 5: job to have been done, and it's lacking greatly.
Speaker 2: I got to tell you, if i'm John O'Keeffe, the
Speaker 2: victims mom or parents Peggy O'Keeffe, you're thinking, I want
Speaker 2: answers for who did this to my son? So if
Speaker 2: it's not Karen Reid, who is it? I hope she
Speaker 2: gets those answers at the bare minimum.
Speaker 7: That's right.
Speaker 6: Listen, we want to hear your thoughts on all of
Speaker 6: tonight's cases.
Speaker 7: Give us a call eighty to eighty three to one Crime.
Speaker 6: We're talking Karen Reid, We're talking about the Long Island
Speaker 6: serial killer, Brian Cooburger and Joseph will discuss more cases.
Speaker 2: He is sticking with us for the evening. We're going
Speaker 2: to be talking about the Diddy case coming up. Also
Speaker 2: the Palm Spring bombing. And also there's breaking news right
Speaker 2: now in that horrifying case in Minnesota. Man has been
Speaker 2: on the loose and Courtney, what's the latest development.
Speaker 6: This is literally minutes old, it's about four or five
Speaker 6: minutes old. But the man hunt is over and suspect
Speaker 6: Vance Luther Bolter has been captured in Minnesota for a
Speaker 6: crime Governor Tim Waltz called quote an act of targeted
Speaker 6: political violence.
Speaker 4: Wow.
Speaker 6: Yes, So Melissa Hortman, a Democrat, and her husband were
Speaker 6: killed in a city near Minneapolis. John Hoffman and his
Speaker 6: wife were also shot several times at their home.
Speaker 7: They are out of surgery and stable right now. Excuse me.
Speaker 6: John is out of state, out of surgery and stable,
Speaker 6: and his wife is also alive. So this suspect impersonated
Speaker 6: an officer and was driving what appeared to be a
Speaker 6: police car, and investigators found in his car a hit
Speaker 6: list of nearly seventy names. Oh my gosh, mostly figures
Speaker 6: with ties to abortion rights.
Speaker 7: So this manhunt, listen, job, well done.
Speaker 4: Well done.
Speaker 2: It takes a village, and you know, listen, these are
Speaker 2: divisive times, these are scary times. Just the idea that
Speaker 2: he was wearing law enforcement clothing is just incredibly scary
Speaker 2: in and of itself.
Speaker 4: And yeah, thank god, well done.
Speaker 3: I read that the senator and his wife that survived.
Speaker 3: I read that he was shot seven times, seven times,
Speaker 3: eight times.
Speaker 6: Yes, it is oh my god, absolute miracle and a
Speaker 6: miracle for them to survive this.
Speaker 3: Wow, we don't know where he was caught yet, like
Speaker 3: they haven't released that information that we love. They have
Speaker 3: taken him into custody, which leads us to believe that
Speaker 3: he is not dead, right, like he's alive.
Speaker 4: Right. It appears, Yes.
Speaker 6: It appears, but will update as stuff comes out over
Speaker 6: the remainder of the show. We can provide updates when
Speaker 6: and if they do come in because it's all happening.
Speaker 4: Now real time.
Speaker 2: I mean, yeah, that's a miracle for the survivors. And
Speaker 2: also also the lone survivor on the India flight, so
Speaker 2: many souls lost, and that one survivor and eleven a
Speaker 2: you know, also a miracle. Such a tragedy, so much loss,
Speaker 2: But there is a glimmer in that that we're sending
Speaker 2: our prayers to all of lost loved.
Speaker 3: Ones and I am sending all the well wishes that
Speaker 3: from law enforcement that you know, found this guy, right
Speaker 3: that they send all their good mojo to the Pacific
Speaker 3: Northwest for Travis Decker.
Speaker 4: I hope that they find him. That makes sense.
Speaker 6: Yeah, Unfortunately, that man hunt is still going on. Travis
Speaker 6: Decker has been accused of killing his three young daughters,
Speaker 6: and US marshals and sheriff's officers, everyone's looking for this
Speaker 6: man and hopefully he will be found.
Speaker 2: Yeah, he's been and even his you know, ex wife,
Speaker 2: the mother who has lost so much, she just lost
Speaker 2: her three kids. She's even saying like it's impossible that
Speaker 2: he wasn't having a mental health break in order to
Speaker 2: commit these crimes like he is, you know, frankly disconnected
Speaker 2: from reality, and that he was a loving father and
Speaker 2: this just got so tragic. So again, more on this
Speaker 2: to come, Joseph, you're sticking with us. We're going to
Speaker 2: be breaking down, Diddy. We're going to talk about the
Speaker 2: Palm Spring bombing into a deep dive there and then
Speaker 2: also with following the new developments very closely as a
Speaker 2: man is apprehended. This is true crime tonight. We're talking
Speaker 2: true crime all the time. So we've been covering a
Speaker 2: ton Karen Reid, etc. More on that to come. But
Speaker 2: first we have a phone call. So caller Linda, welcome
Speaker 2: to the show. What's your question?
Speaker 9: Yes, I was just curious what their thoughts were on
Speaker 9: Rex Schuerman and all of the victims that have been
Speaker 9: found so far. Do they think that the case is
Speaker 9: coming close to an end or if there will be
Speaker 9: victims ground like years to come. And then my other question,
Speaker 9: thank you, And my other question is is there a
Speaker 9: chance that he's being blamed for cass that he didn't do,
Speaker 9: just so that the case can get closed.
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's a fair question. Yeah, I could jump in
Speaker 4: on that real quick. Go for it, Go for it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think those are really as few questions. You know,
Speaker 2: Joseph can speak to the forensics. It does seem as
Speaker 2: though there is some significant connective tissue between the various victims,
Speaker 2: and there are still four that have not been identified,
Speaker 2: specifically two Rex humer men Peaches is one that gets
Speaker 2: spoken about very often in the two year old toddler.
Speaker 2: Those are not connected quite yet, so we kind of
Speaker 2: are remaining we're kind of waiting to see. Some of
Speaker 2: them were found, as you may know, in these burlap bags,
Speaker 2: and then others seemingly weren't. So there's some differences, and
Speaker 2: therefore it's possible that this is a pile on right,
Speaker 2: and maybe he didn't do all of these murders, and
Speaker 2: maybe there's just more being piled on to him. I'm
Speaker 2: sure Joseph, forensics wise, you have a feeling on this.
Speaker 5: Yeah. I mean, for me, you'd have to look at
Speaker 5: I think from just a spatial stamdpoint point where these
Speaker 5: bodies were deposited and in proximity to the individual that
Speaker 5: has been accused here. That's going to be one of
Speaker 5: the first steps I think that the investigators are going through,
Speaker 5: and in addition to that any kind of circumstantial evidence
Speaker 5: that they've been able to put together as far as
Speaker 5: him being tracked. I think one of the curious things
Speaker 5: about lists that the police allege are these collection of
Speaker 5: burner phones that were utilized over a period of time.
Speaker 5: And that's really hard to get passed when you begin
Speaker 5: to point back to these poor women that have been
Speaker 5: victimized and brutalized. For me, at least, you know that
Speaker 5: someone would go to this trouble and he just happens
Speaker 5: to have the burner phones that actually have their numbers
Speaker 5: in them, you know, these escort services and that sort
Speaker 5: of thing. So I think that's a bit of damning
Speaker 5: information that interestingly enough, they're having to kind of resurrect
Speaker 5: older forensic digital evidence to bring into this based upon
Speaker 5: how far back these cases go.
Speaker 4: And with Grenda, that's a good question.
Speaker 2: That is a very clever one too, because you're right,
Speaker 2: the phone stuff, that's really hard to explain away period
Speaker 2: at the end.
Speaker 6: Right, Yeah, with the phones, I believe and correct me
Speaker 6: if I'm wrong, Joseph, that not just were these burner
Speaker 6: phones that rex Huerman had tied to the women, but
Speaker 6: also it exactly mirrored where his main phone also went.
Speaker 6: So wherever he and his phone went, so did the
Speaker 6: burner phones. And that is tied together entirely.
Speaker 5: Yeah, and that's kind of fascinating because you can what's
Speaker 5: really interesting. I covered a case out of a Mennonite,
Speaker 5: young Mennonite woman that was kidnapped and tracked all the
Speaker 5: way her phone and the kidnapper's phone who wound up
Speaker 5: killing her. We're both simultaneously tracked going down the road
Speaker 5: to Arizona where she was eventually found. And it's amazing
Speaker 5: to tracking. You know, you might not be using your
Speaker 5: phone you're not thinking about using your primary phone. But
Speaker 5: for him, he's got this burner phone and these things
Speaker 5: are traveling and hand them. Don't think about him. Just
Speaker 5: think about these two dots on a map. You know
Speaker 5: that they're kind of moving about. And again it's dispassionate,
Speaker 5: you know, when you think about it, it's just fact.
Speaker 5: And what a Dummy's really difficult to get.
Speaker 3: He goes to all the trouble get a burner phone
Speaker 3: and then brings his regular phone to what a dummy?
Speaker 4: Yeah, I like its true acknowledge that as.
Speaker 2: A spade of spade, Yeah, he is a dummy, and
Speaker 2: it's terrible and but thank god he's a dummy.
Speaker 4: That's the case allegedly.
Speaker 2: Then at least there's a footprint to you know, lead
Speaker 2: to you know, a conviction if in fact he's done this,
Speaker 2: you know, Joseph. There's also, you know, so much speculation
Speaker 2: just about you know, this case went unsolved for so so.
Speaker 4: Long, right, and maybe that there are many more.
Speaker 2: We heard very recently an author of one of the
Speaker 2: books on the case says that he believes that there's
Speaker 2: likely one hundred more victims possibly and you know, it's
Speaker 2: hard to dispute that given that the victims that we
Speaker 2: do have identified is really because the mothers, their moms
Speaker 2: did not give up the fire, and they kind of
Speaker 2: came together and really did this investigation and pushed and
Speaker 2: pushed and pushed authorities, and thankfully they are getting closer
Speaker 2: to some justice God willing.
Speaker 4: What do you think is going to happen next?
Speaker 5: Well, I think that if there are other cases, they're
Speaker 5: going to begin to kind of lace these together. I
Speaker 5: just don't know how significant the information is that they have,
Speaker 5: because I would think that they would have kind of
Speaker 5: coupled them or bundled them in a modern term in
Speaker 5: cases to go that they had substantive forensic data to
Speaker 5: tie them back where they have linkage to him. These
Speaker 5: are the most solid ones that they have at this
Speaker 5: point in time. What's going to be interesting though, if
Speaker 5: any new bodies are discovered and in the wiles of
Speaker 5: Long Island, along that roadway that I've driven up and down,
Speaker 5: it's thick. You know, You've got these thick orders, you
Speaker 5: know that leads you down through this marshy area. You've
Speaker 5: got the ocean on one side and you've got water intrusion.
Speaker 5: Things wash up, they go away, They come back. I
Speaker 5: ever know what will happen in the future, but this
Speaker 5: this appears to be a killing ground in there.
Speaker 2: It appears to be a killing ground and possibly then
Speaker 2: some So yeah, we'll be we'll be following this much closer. Linda,
Speaker 2: thank you for the call, and we seem to have
Speaker 2: another welcome to the show.
Speaker 4: What's your question, Hi, Jenna.
Speaker 8: So I was wondering with Amazon coming out with a
Speaker 8: new series One Night in Idaho premiering next month, and
Speaker 8: you know, right before trial that's featuring family members and
Speaker 8: potential witnesses that could be called at trial. How do
Speaker 8: you think that could potentially impact seating an impartial jury?
Speaker 4: Such a good question.
Speaker 3: And all media has the potential to, you know, impact
Speaker 3: the jury, right, Like we're all human, right, I just
Speaker 3: I can't imagine that all this stuff coming out, Like
Speaker 3: there's a book coming out like eleven days before the
Speaker 3: trial starts. There's this documentary, and there's been countless other
Speaker 3: you know, episodes of Dateline in twenty twenty and you know,
Speaker 3: ad nauseum, right, there's been so much media this case.
Speaker 3: I think it all could impact an impartial jury. However,
Speaker 3: the State of Idaho, in their response to the defense's
Speaker 3: motion for delay. You know, the defense is saying that
Speaker 3: all this media is affecting their you know, Brian, and
Speaker 3: he needs this delay. But the state is basically saying, no,
Speaker 3: there's no amount of media that this case could get
Speaker 3: where we could not see an impartial jury using individual worldoir.
Speaker 3: So the state seems very confident that they're going to
Speaker 3: be able to see an impartial jury. I'm not so
Speaker 3: convinced personally. I think, you know, we're all humans and
Speaker 3: we're all curious, right, We're all and especially if you
Speaker 3: live in the area right that you might you might
Speaker 3: be wanting to look up this case and you might
Speaker 3: come you know, with all this, you know what I
Speaker 3: consider to be like really prejudicial leaks that are coming
Speaker 3: out because they all seem to really point at Brian
Speaker 3: Koberger right as the person that did this. I mean that,
Speaker 3: in my opinion, is super prejudicial.
Speaker 2: And you would have to assume too that the documentary
Speaker 2: you're speaking about the I'm one. I just saw the
Speaker 2: trailer as well, and I'm sure they're keeping it very impartial, right,
Speaker 2: that's the point of a documentary we're making one. Also,
Speaker 2: Joseph is incredible in it as well, and that's for peacock.
Speaker 2: And look, part of the challenge is making sure that
Speaker 2: you're not taking anything that has not been factually viable,
Speaker 2: and that you're curating the junk from the real stuff.
Speaker 2: And there's so much misinformation out there on the other
Speaker 2: side of it, getting it out correctly and cleanly based
Speaker 2: on that might actually be very helpful. And listen, the
Speaker 2: news is on every day, right, so you can't avoid
Speaker 2: seeing some of this information, which is why the trial
Speaker 2: needs to happen sooner than later.
Speaker 4: In my opinion. Any delays, I think would just be terrible.
Speaker 4: I would absolutely agree with you.
Speaker 2: Thank you for your call, Jest, Thanks Jenna, thank you
Speaker 2: for listening, and yeah, keep calling back.
Speaker 4: Yeah, definitely.
Speaker 3: So we also have some updates in Diddy oh week
Speaker 3: now your favorite subject, Stephanie Diddy seem great to be Are.
Speaker 2: You guys just missing talking about it day in and
Speaker 2: day out. You've had little reprieve for a couple of weeks,
Speaker 2: had a little reprieve.
Speaker 3: Well, there was some there was some stuff that happened
Speaker 3: on Friday. You know, we weren't we don't have a
Speaker 3: show Friday, so we weren't able to cover it.
Speaker 4: So we're gonna do that now.
Speaker 3: So Week five wrapped up after four like super intense
Speaker 3: days with you know, Ditty's ex girlfriend Jane and that's
Speaker 3: like a pseudonym. But on Friday, there were some brief
Speaker 3: appearances by Kanye. Yeah, so get this right. So I
Speaker 3: don't know what he was doing there. I don't know
Speaker 3: if he was showing up so to show solidarity with
Speaker 3: Diddy support. But he showed up with Ditty's son and
Speaker 3: they wouldn't let him in the courtroom, so he had
Speaker 3: to go to like the overflow room with like the peasants, right,
Speaker 3: and didn't like that, so he left.
Speaker 2: He was only there for ten minutes, all just in white,
Speaker 2: very angelic, you know. Our sourcing says that he was
Speaker 2: there in support of Ditty. Their old friends and buds
Speaker 2: like him, hate him. They they go along way back.
Speaker 2: And yeah, he showed up. He got stuck in the
Speaker 2: me your room for ten minutes and it wasn't a
Speaker 2: vibe and he he left.
Speaker 4: It wasn't it was not the vibe.
Speaker 6: Stephanie, you say, dressed you know, all in white as
Speaker 6: an angel, I would have rethought the wardrobe choices. I mean,
Speaker 6: I just all I think about are those Hampton's all
Speaker 6: white parties and white It's so true.
Speaker 4: That actually never occurred to me. That never occurred to me.
Speaker 2: I thought he was doing something slightly angelic to show
Speaker 2: like this, you know, good versus evil, you know, black
Speaker 2: clothing versus white clothing. Thing good point, Courtney, That's actually
Speaker 2: very true. I hadn't occurred to me. One thing I
Speaker 2: do think was very significant in the days leading up
Speaker 2: to the weekend is this KK, Christina Koran being brought
Speaker 2: into this case officially. You know, we've been talking about
Speaker 2: this for a while. She goes by KK. That's also
Speaker 2: Didy's like chief of staff. She used to be a
Speaker 2: Bad Boys executive and then took over all things Diddy
Speaker 2: and it it's kind of a key player in this
Speaker 2: because if they can prove that she was in fact
Speaker 2: a part of an enterprise that was coordinating and coercing
Speaker 2: and a part of the cleanup, So it's the freak
Speaker 2: offs and then it's the cover up, and it's the cleanup,
Speaker 2: and it's the payoffs. If she was a part of
Speaker 2: the payoff conversation to get that CNN video removed, where
Speaker 2: did he was beating his then girlfriend? That's a thing
Speaker 2: So in the meantime, Joseph, you've been doing a deep
Speaker 2: dive and following this particular case in Palm Springs very closely.
Speaker 2: So where should we begin fill us in.
Speaker 5: Well, I think that it's very important that we go
Speaker 5: back to May, which when IVF Clinic in Palm Springs
Speaker 5: was bombed. They identified a guy at that particular time,
Speaker 5: I think it's Gary Barcus, and he sets off this
Speaker 5: bomb in front of the IVF clinic in his vehicle
Speaker 5: and just absolutely just blows the thing to pieces. That
Speaker 5: a couple of people were injured inside, and of course
Speaker 5: he died as a result of it. But as it
Speaker 5: turns out, he had written manifesto, and contained within the
Speaker 5: manifesto was his referencing of a young lady that a
Speaker 5: month prior in April had been killed at the hand
Speaker 5: of her boyfriend, a guy named Lars Nelson. Allegedly he
Speaker 5: was arrested for this. But the interesting tie back here
Speaker 5: is that I heard a term because I'm I'm actually
Speaker 5: I've actually covered this on bodybags. I heard a term
Speaker 5: I'd never heard before, and it was two pro mortalist
Speaker 5: and anti natalist. I'd never heard this terms before. And
Speaker 5: the idea was that, you know, life is miserable, we
Speaker 5: don't need to procreate. And in addition to that, I
Speaker 5: didn't ask to be born. That's kind of the I'd
Speaker 5: never heard this before, and it was an interesting motivation.
Speaker 5: I saw the anti natalist.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and this was this was a clinic that helped
Speaker 3: people have babies, right like they did IVF treatment. Yeah,
Speaker 3: and they had embryos on site and so they.
Speaker 5: Did, yeah, frozen embryos in this facility. And he goes
Speaker 5: to this location to blow its pieces and of course,
Speaker 5: you know, fortunately I guess no one was killed other
Speaker 5: than the bomber, but bodiac. I tell you, one of the
Speaker 5: things this is sturbed at this and I'd love to
Speaker 5: hear your view of this, because I know that you
Speaker 5: dig on manifestos. The scary thing about this, and I'm
Speaker 5: just a forensics guy. Scary thing about this is that
Speaker 5: are there other people? Because when somebody writes writes this
Speaker 5: down and they're talking about that they have no value
Speaker 5: in life and that you're better off dead, are there
Speaker 5: other people that kind of adhere to this? And just
Speaker 5: as a death investigate former death investigator, one of the
Speaker 5: things that troubled me is that are there others lying
Speaker 5: in wait, you know they're thinking about it, right, Well.
Speaker 3: There's got to be there's got to be some kind
Speaker 3: of group that these people are in to discuss their beliefs, right,
Speaker 3: And you mentioned in this manifesto, guy Bactus mentions this
Speaker 3: lady Sophie almost said Cherry Sophie, and he says that
Speaker 3: he that she is his best friend. Well, like you mentioned,
Speaker 3: unfortunately Sophie her boyfriend called nine to one one and
Speaker 3: said that she had committed suicide. Well, she had four
Speaker 3: gunshot wounds to the head, which is literally impossible to
Speaker 3: do if it's you're killing yourself, right, Like, nobody can
Speaker 3: shoot themselves four times?
Speaker 4: What another done?
Speaker 5: No, I've had cases I worked. You know, my background
Speaker 5: is I worked for the Corner in New Orleans and
Speaker 5: for the Emmy in Atlanta, and and so I've had
Speaker 5: people that have shot themselves multiple times. You have, oh yeah, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 5: I've had several of those cases where a bad placement
Speaker 5: of the weapon, oh okay, or people will test. You'll
Speaker 5: find people that will test our weapons. But can you
Speaker 5: imagine the cops are rolling out on this and they
Speaker 5: roll up to the scene and this guy's saying allegedly,
Speaker 5: again he's spent charged. Allegedly, Yeah, my girlfriend killed herself,
Speaker 5: and he's very just passionate about it. You know, in
Speaker 5: the nine to one one call, she killed herself and
Speaker 5: they walk in and you've got three spent casings on
Speaker 5: the floor, which means this is a semi automatic weapon.
Speaker 5: It had to be pulled at least three times, and
Speaker 5: then one of the rounds had passed through and lodged
Speaker 5: in the wall. This is not a suicide. And from
Speaker 5: what we're kind of hearing, these are all headshots, and
Speaker 5: so yeah, those are literally unsurvivable. I've had people shoot
Speaker 5: themselves in the stomach and then turn the weapon on
Speaker 5: themselves and shoot themselves in the head, but never never,
Speaker 5: I wonder, in my experience, at least, never four or
Speaker 5: three to the head.
Speaker 3: I wonder what the connection is between I don't know it. Yeah, well,
Speaker 3: I mean between him did she know something? Did she
Speaker 3: and he had to get rid of her. So I'm
Speaker 3: on the same track with you. There's he is he
Speaker 3: involved in this?
Speaker 5: And this is this is what this is what her
Speaker 5: dad said, or her parents rather they're quoted, is actually
Speaker 5: having said that she could literally get this guy to
Speaker 5: do anything that she wished. And when I was putting
Speaker 5: this together for my podcast, I was thinking, I wonder,
Speaker 5: I wonder if he if this was a murder suicide thing,
Speaker 5: and then he just you know, he doesn't have the
Speaker 5: intestinal fortitude to go ahead and go through with it.
Speaker 5: Maybe that was it. But I'm thinking, here's what I'm hoping.
Speaker 5: I'm hoping because this is something that involves two jurisdictions.
Speaker 5: You've got obviously California, and you've got Washington States, Fox
Speaker 5: Island where Sophie died. Fox Island, Washington State's twelve hundred
Speaker 5: miles away from Paul Strings. By the way, I'm hoping
Speaker 5: the FEDS have gotten involved in this doing a deep
Speaker 5: dive if there is some kind of subgroup that's out
Speaker 5: there that's promoting this and that that it ends this tragically.
Speaker 5: I'm really hoping Smite's got os on the same because
Speaker 5: I gotta tell you, it's terrifying, and I hope that
Speaker 5: there's no copycats out there.
Speaker 6: Yeah, Joseph, what are your thoughts on potential copycats?
Speaker 7: Is that just because this is such.
Speaker 6: A terrifying organizing principle, or is there it seems like
Speaker 6: there's a likelihood.
Speaker 5: I don't know, it's it sounds like at least perhaps
Speaker 5: well people look bought into to an ethos. I don't
Speaker 5: know it's right. Just earlier this month, are there more?
Speaker 3: Just earlier this month, Daniel Park of Kent, Washington was
Speaker 3: arrested on federal charges of providing material support to the
Speaker 3: guy who did the bombing.
Speaker 4: Guy barked this. He shipped bark this two.
Speaker 3: Hundred and seventy pounds of ammonium nitrate, I mean, which
Speaker 3: is the same which is the same stuff they used in.
Speaker 4: The Oklahoma bombing.
Speaker 3: Is So there's there's some, there's some. I think there's
Speaker 3: something there. I think you're absolutely right, Joseph, I think
Speaker 3: there's something there. I really want to read this manifesto,
Speaker 3: but it's not available.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I think, yeah, I know you. I think they
Speaker 5: think the guy that actually sold this, that facilitated this,
Speaker 5: I think they had to. They wound up tracking him down.
Speaker 5: If I'm not mistaken in Europe. He may have been
Speaker 5: in Germany. I'm not. That seems like I'm remembering that,
Speaker 5: you know, going back to what she had mentioned about this,
Speaker 5: the subtance that they choose chose to use. I had
Speaker 5: a lot of friends that were with d mort which
Speaker 5: is National Disaster Mortuary Service that response teams that worked
Speaker 5: Oklahoma City. A lot of people forget about Oklahoma City
Speaker 5: in the wake of nine to eleven and it was
Speaker 5: horrible and to see the devastation that was done there
Speaker 5: is almost unimaginable, I think. And that he had access
Speaker 5: to this and he knew how to set it up.
Speaker 5: And allegedly the guy in Palm Springs actually a fast
Speaker 5: national fires and fire and explosives and things like this.
Speaker 5: So it's terrifying. Yeah, are some specifically, Yeah, So it's
Speaker 5: very terrifying.
Speaker 3: That's one of those predatory pre behaviors, right, that that
Speaker 3: people have prior to causing a massive, massive, violent destruction.
Speaker 3: And by all stretch of the imagination that happened here,
Speaker 3: I mean he was he was identified through DNA from
Speaker 3: his remains in the car. I mean he was tore up, right,
Speaker 3: this was a huge explosion.
Speaker 5: This wasn't like it was a massive and I urge
Speaker 5: anybody that has not seen the images and if they're
Speaker 5: free to view, you know, you can see from any
Speaker 5: of the news agencies the case really did not make
Speaker 5: a big splash amazingly, uh, and it didn't. It didn't
Speaker 5: have life in the media cycle. But now I hope
Speaker 5: that it will, and I hope that there if there
Speaker 5: are other people out there and anybody that hears this
Speaker 5: is aware of this, a beg of you.
Speaker 3: How they caught I think how they caught that guy Park,
Speaker 3: the guy that that was Incootes with him, was through
Speaker 3: their online presence because they were they were talking on
Speaker 3: online through you know, redded or four Chance, you know,
Speaker 3: one of those one of those sites where you can
Speaker 3: do that. I'm not saying that's where it happened, Please don't.
Speaker 3: I'm I'm just guessing here.
Speaker 4: And they were.
Speaker 3: They were all in this, you know, anti natalist group,
Speaker 3: and no human should be born without explicit consent basically,
Speaker 3: and so one A good update though from that the
Speaker 3: bombing is that all the embryos were saved, right, There
Speaker 3: were no There were people injured, but nobody was killed
Speaker 3: except for the driver who's a suspect, right, And all
Speaker 3: the embryos were not even touched, like they everything passed
Speaker 3: the mustard there. So that's good for the people that
Speaker 3: are using those facilities.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I think that all of us can identify we've
Speaker 5: all got dear friends probably that have long to have
Speaker 5: a child, and the fact the fact that you would
Speaker 5: go to a location where you've had these embryos is
Speaker 5: a real tragedy. People are begging, you know that can't
Speaker 5: have kids, that would love to have a child. And
Speaker 5: that's what's really terrifying about this.
Speaker 4: For me at least complicated stuff.
Speaker 6: Yeah, and this whole movement. Thank you for bringing this
Speaker 6: to our attention. Joseph, I'd never heard of the anti
Speaker 6: natalist or pro mortalist beliefs, and just looking at a
Speaker 6: couple of quotes from the manifesto quote the end goal
Speaker 6: is for the truth to win, and once it does,
Speaker 6: we can finally begin the process of sterilizing this planet
Speaker 6: of the disease of life. I mean, this is really
Speaker 6: dark stuff, but listen, very stick around. We have a
Speaker 6: lot more ground that we will be covering tonight, Joseph.
Speaker 6: Scott Morgan is going to be sticking with us. We're
Speaker 6: going to be answering some of our questions. We have
Speaker 6: so many forensics, we have Karen Reid, and we're turning
Speaker 6: the mic over to you, so don't forget to call us.
Speaker 7: We're at eight eight eight.
Speaker 6: Three to one crime and we want to hear your
Speaker 6: thoughts on Shandy Combs or really any of Tonight's stories.
Speaker 6: So Gabe pit here on True Gruntz Night, we are
Speaker 6: talking true crime all the time.
Speaker 2: So there have been a lot of breaking headlines, real
Speaker 2: time happening that we want to share.
Speaker 4: Courtney. Where should we start.
Speaker 6: Well, we should start with the fact that the manhunt
Speaker 6: is over and the suspect, Vance Luther Bolter has been
Speaker 6: captured in Minnesota. This is for a crime that Governor
Speaker 6: Tim Waltz called an act of targeted political violence. Michelle Hortman,
Speaker 6: a Democrat, and her husband were very sadly killed in
Speaker 6: a city near Minneapolis. John Hoffman, also a Democrat, and
Speaker 6: his wife were shot several times at their home. But
Speaker 6: both are stable and in fact, the wife you've at
Speaker 6: hoff Men says she is quote. Our family is so
Speaker 6: humbled by the love and outpouring from everyone. So Yovette
Speaker 6: is able to communicate. Shocking since her husband was shot
Speaker 6: nine times and she was shot eight times, and this
Speaker 6: manhunt was ended while we were on the air, if
Speaker 6: you were listening earlier, and a couple of things have
Speaker 6: come to pass. The Hennepin County Sheriff She was actually
Speaker 6: in tears when she confirmed the arrest of the suspect,
Speaker 6: and she said, there is so much release relief that
Speaker 6: the suspect was taken into custody peacefully, no injuries to him,
Speaker 6: no injuries to officers involved.
Speaker 10: Wow.
Speaker 2: I mean, talk about landing that plane so carefully. Law enforcement, Again,
Speaker 2: we don't say it enough. Talk about putting your life
Speaker 2: on the line going out, you know, chasing down somebody
Speaker 2: who you know is a at large and dangerous and
Speaker 2: you know could be anywhere.
Speaker 4: This is again Father's Day.
Speaker 2: You know how many men and women are going out
Speaker 2: leaving their families and keeping us safe.
Speaker 6: So well done, Well done, And now we will go
Speaker 6: to talk back on Karen Reid.
Speaker 11: Hi, my name is Renee. I'm in Santa Monica, and
Speaker 11: I had a question about the Karen Reid trial. I
Speaker 11: don't understand how they are charging her with murder because
Speaker 11: I don't see how there is any evidence of intent
Speaker 11: to kill him. Can you please explain the charges that
Speaker 11: she is facing and what evidence they have put forward
Speaker 11: to show that she intended for him to die.
Speaker 2: By the way, I think what you are describing is
Speaker 2: the most important piece of this whole thing. She is
Speaker 2: overcharged and incorrectly charged. And maybe that's part of the
Speaker 2: Canton police is cover up air quotes allegedly. Maybe they
Speaker 2: were just trying to pile on to get her on
Speaker 2: a murder conviction when under no circumstances is that provable,
Speaker 2: you know, regardless if you think she hit him or not.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I totally agree.
Speaker 3: And you know, I don't think that even if she
Speaker 3: did hit him, and I don't think she necessarily did,
Speaker 3: I don't even think she realized it. Like there was
Speaker 3: no intent here, there was no premeditation. I don't even think.
Speaker 4: I think she just was.
Speaker 3: I if this is, if my theory is correct, which
Speaker 3: is you know that she backed up and scared him,
Speaker 3: he jumped and slipped and fell something along those lines.
Speaker 3: She wasn't intending to harm him in any capacity. I
Speaker 3: think because he's a police officer, they totally overcharged him,
Speaker 3: and I think it's going to be the state's downfall.
Speaker 4: I do too.
Speaker 2: I just hear you say you didn't think that she
Speaker 2: did it. Bodied are you changing in this hour, this
Speaker 2: evening's time, Have you changed your vote?
Speaker 3: No? I absolutely have not changed my vote. She's technically
Speaker 3: if she if she backed up at twenty four miles
Speaker 3: an hour and he thought she was going to hit him,
Speaker 3: which might have happened had he not moved out of
Speaker 3: the way.
Speaker 4: She's still guilty of filony manslaughter.
Speaker 6: Right, but the charges, and you'd ask specifically what they are,
Speaker 6: it is second degree murder man slaughter while operating under
Speaker 6: the influence and leaving the scene of personal injury and
Speaker 6: death in connection with the death of of course her
Speaker 6: boyfriend John O'Keefe. Thank you for that, and I believe
Speaker 6: we have another talk back. Another Karen Reid question.
Speaker 7: Actually, I think.
Speaker 10: At one point that's not being talked about nearly enough
Speaker 10: is the fact that Brian Higgins threw his phone out
Speaker 10: at a military base. That is completely irrational unless you
Speaker 10: have something to have.
Speaker 12: That is such a weird question. Yeah, that is really
Speaker 12: I completely forgotten. That is a shady stuff, right, real
Speaker 12: shady thing. I completely forgot about that.
Speaker 4: Yeah, No, I did too. I until he until he
Speaker 4: started talking. I was like, oh, yeah, that's right.
Speaker 3: And he drove like out of his way to the
Speaker 3: space too, right, Like he went out of his way
Speaker 3: to drive to this this this base and destroy his
Speaker 3: cell phone.
Speaker 2: His cell phone wasn't like candied over in any reasonable
Speaker 2: amount of time either. Yeah, that is a very good question.
Speaker 2: And then look at we'll never know because the the
Speaker 2: investigation was so messy that we'll actually never probably get
Speaker 2: to the bottom of any of this. And I'm curious,
Speaker 2: I'm curious what any of you think if there will
Speaker 2: be additional charges placed in the event that she's found innocent.
Speaker 3: Yeah, if she's acquitted, do you guys think that the
Speaker 3: commonwealth will charge somebody else? I'd love to know what
Speaker 3: people think about that.
Speaker 7: One trial at a time. Number one.
Speaker 6: And then to answer the talk back, you know, I think,
Speaker 6: why isn't it you know, how did it happen?
Speaker 7: What does it mean?
Speaker 6: I think this cover up runs wide and it runs deep,
Speaker 6: and that is one piece of it, because why indeed
Speaker 6: are you doing that unless it is to remove all evidence?
Speaker 4: Joseph?
Speaker 3: Can we talk some forensics?
Speaker 4: Okay?
Speaker 3: Can I just leaned very closely to you, Joseph. I'm
Speaker 3: just going to start firing like boom boom, and you
Speaker 3: know you can tell me what you think. How do
Speaker 3: you feel that's about Brian Coberger My question? And Taylor
Speaker 3: said in one of the doc and many documents that
Speaker 3: she filed that there is a lack of DNA in
Speaker 3: the in Brian Coberger's car that was found. Do you
Speaker 3: think that this could just be a clever wording because
Speaker 3: lack doesn't necessarily mean none, right, Or do you think
Speaker 3: it's possible that he was able to clean up the
Speaker 3: car that well, that there's no DNA in the car?
Speaker 5: I think yeah. I think that he had a protracted
Speaker 5: period of time with a car, even if he doesn't
Speaker 5: know anything about forensics, and some people have tried to
Speaker 5: paint him with some kind of mastermind. Just because you
Speaker 5: drive a car doesn't make you a Nascar eraser, all right.
Speaker 4: Gerald McCollum tells me the same thing, just while you
Speaker 4: have a.
Speaker 5: Yeah, so, yeah, absolutely, and so he's no, he's a criminologist.
Speaker 5: There's a huge difference. And I resent people conflating the
Speaker 5: tire and so yeah. So I think that he could
Speaker 5: have had he could have had sufficient amount of time.
Speaker 5: I've been on records saying that I felt as though
Speaker 5: that that car, going back to what step said earlier
Speaker 5: about you being on the phone with her, I felt
Speaker 5: at that time the car would be a rolling crime
Speaker 5: scene because you can't you can't excel from a location
Speaker 5: like that with four bodies that have been subjected to
Speaker 5: knife injuries and not be supersaturated with blood, and that's
Speaker 5: going to transfer. I mean, that's the cart's principle. Every
Speaker 5: contact leaves a trace, it's going to transfer into those
Speaker 5: filthy cloth seats in there. How did he get it
Speaker 5: sufficiently cleaned up or did he have barriers in place?
Speaker 5: Did he take his clothes off before he got into
Speaker 5: the vehicle, put him in a separate bag, you know,
Speaker 5: the dickies cover all all right. We could go on
Speaker 5: and on.
Speaker 2: The shower curtain, the shower curtain, Joseph, We talked about
Speaker 2: this to nause him. It's such a scary detail. That's
Speaker 2: really a little unknowable if it's accurate. There was apparently
Speaker 2: no shower curtain in his apartment when it was air
Speaker 2: quotes raided, and that led all of us to assume
Speaker 2: or think perhaps that they took the shower curtain out
Speaker 2: so he could wrap himself in it while driving away allegedly, allegedly, allegedly,
Speaker 2: if he was being that clever and knew that he
Speaker 2: would be covered in blood and needed a way to
Speaker 2: escape cleanly, how can you do that?
Speaker 3: One of the documents that just came out there. We
Speaker 3: were presented with the selfie that he took in the
Speaker 3: bathroom that morning, and if you look in the corner,
Speaker 3: you can see like a liner that looks brand new.
Speaker 4: Yeah, like it stills the folds in it, right, Yeah,
Speaker 4: it looks.
Speaker 2: Like it was in that fold that you get right
Speaker 2: out of the packaging, you know. Also another haunting detail
Speaker 2: that I just have been stuck on is that in
Speaker 2: the hours after the murders, before the bodies were discovered,
Speaker 2: according to this dateline leak, he had been calling home
Speaker 2: to dad, to Brian Coburger was calling his beloved father
Speaker 2: back in Pennsylvania. Those were pretty extensive calls in the
Speaker 2: wee hours. So I bring this up simply to say, either,
Speaker 2: it's so interesting that if you allegedly committed a murder
Speaker 2: of four people, you're covered in blood, you're probably frantic
Speaker 2: and manic.
Speaker 4: Is that the time that you call your dad.
Speaker 2: And hang on the phone for forty five minutes two
Speaker 2: separate times, back to back.
Speaker 4: Or is it because you're so manic? Are you confessing?
Speaker 2: Or are you just feeling like chatty Cathy because you
Speaker 2: pulled something off and you don't know who else to call.
Speaker 2: It also puts a lot of you know, suspicion into
Speaker 2: Dad because you know, we know that he came and
Speaker 2: picked up Brian and they drove infamously home together for
Speaker 2: the holidays, got pulled over a few times.
Speaker 5: I don't think so yeah, yeah, boy. I'll tell you what,
Speaker 5: if you've ever made the drive from the east coast
Speaker 5: to the west, or from the west to the east,
Speaker 5: you had a lot of time to contemplate a tom
Speaker 5: if you will, And if you're with somebody in that car,
Speaker 5: you know you're thinking about, you know, what went wrong,
Speaker 5: what did I do? Or maybe you're just discussing, you know,
Speaker 5: the upcoming hockey season. I have no idea, but that's
Speaker 5: kind of an interesting top back. And then you got
Speaker 5: the two stops in Indiana, you know where they're traveling
Speaker 5: down the road, and so all of that has run
Speaker 5: through my mind as well. That was an interesting fond
Speaker 5: relative to this contact he had with Daddy in that
Speaker 5: bit of that bit of time, I was fascinated by.
Speaker 2: I know, my heart, I feel for a parent, like
Speaker 2: are they given this information and he's in the know,
Speaker 2: or do you just you know, you just don't think
Speaker 2: in a million years that your son or a child
Speaker 2: is capable of something that's not where your brain goes.
Speaker 2: It's a probably we won't know until trial. But sort
Speaker 2: of this backdrop that we're seeing, and also the idea
Speaker 2: that he was Brian Coberger allegedly was googling porn in
Speaker 2: pornography specifically of people who were, you know, passed out
Speaker 2: or drugged.
Speaker 4: Not great, not a great look.
Speaker 3: I wonder when I watch those the bodycam footage, I wonder,
Speaker 3: is the knife in the car?
Speaker 4: Oh?
Speaker 7: Because, my goodness, that's all I wonder about that.
Speaker 5: I thought that could have been compelled. I thought that
Speaker 5: maybe the state police had been compelled to do that
Speaker 5: precise thing, to interview inside the vehicle. Yeah, oh no,
Speaker 5: we'll see what happens. We'll see what happened.
Speaker 4: Know the judge mentioned apostle life. We'll get to that later.
Speaker 9: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Last licks, anything on the forensics that we've been discussing
Speaker 2: so far that we have left out so far.
Speaker 6: One question burns from me, Joseph, go get a court. Okay,
Speaker 6: we start, Karen Reid, we got to bring it back.
Speaker 6: What do you think, please share? What do you think
Speaker 6: of the forensics in the case, whether it's John.
Speaker 7: O'Keefe's arm or his head. I want to hear what
Speaker 7: you think about the arm.
Speaker 5: Okay, well, when the arm my first blush when I
Speaker 5: was in the first time I ever talked about this
Speaker 5: case was on Core TV. I came into it blind.
Speaker 5: They just asked me to appear. And so when I
Speaker 5: initially saw those injuries on his arm, my mind didn't
Speaker 5: get a dog at that point in time. And this
Speaker 5: was months and months and months ago. I hadn't heard
Speaker 5: the full story at that point in time when I
Speaker 5: saw his arm. Based upon car accidents that I worked
Speaker 5: over the years, they look like they could have been
Speaker 5: generated by an undercarriage of a vehicle and almost been
Speaker 5: a defensive posture where your arm bends at the elbow,
Speaker 5: which remember it's flex there. We think arm goes up
Speaker 5: in a defensive pace. It's almost a primal response and
Speaker 5: the underside of the vehicle kind of yeah, yeah, it's yeah,
Speaker 5: and we we do that. There's a primal course us
Speaker 5: that respond to things that kind of defend ourselves. And
Speaker 5: so I thought he's knocked back and to do this,
Speaker 5: he defends himself. The only thing though, is that I
Speaker 5: have not been able to get a good answer, because
Speaker 5: under the car is one of the filthiest areas anywhere,
Speaker 5: and you would think that there'd be a lot of transfer,
Speaker 5: you know, from the undercarriage of a car road dirt,
Speaker 5: road grime. And I haven't. I haven't seen a.
Speaker 3: Lot of evidence of that, No evidence of that, actually, right, Like, yeah,
Speaker 3: and that's problematic.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and what about.
Speaker 2: A little problematic that they didn't really go into the house.
Speaker 2: So if a dead body is found at the bottom
Speaker 2: of a street or the driveway of a home, it's
Speaker 2: pretty standard to go and check out the home. No,
Speaker 2: it seems as though like that didn't really happen quite
Speaker 2: as thoroughly.
Speaker 5: I don't know. You get a warrant, you clear everybody
Speaker 5: out of the house. You've got a dead body in
Speaker 5: the front yard. You're getting out of the house. We're
Speaker 5: getting statements from everybody, and we're going in and we're
Speaker 5: going to take a look. And they should have known better.
Speaker 5: They go on and on about cops, cops, cops, you
Speaker 5: should know better. That's how the process works. This is
Speaker 5: a death investigation. This wound up with a murder two
Speaker 5: charge in addition to a vehicular manslaughter charge. Yeah, it
Speaker 5: should have been done.
Speaker 2: Thank you, josephare up in town exactly, Joseph, you tell
Speaker 2: them who's boss. Joseph, You're going to come back with
Speaker 2: us many many times. So final dips, because tomorrow we
Speaker 2: might have a verdict in the Karen Reed trial. And
Speaker 2: then obviously also the Diddy trial will continue every day
Speaker 2: next week. It seems as though where are the celebrities
Speaker 2: that we've been hearing about. Where are the celebrities the
Speaker 2: revolving door of big ticket names. They seem to be
Speaker 2: a no show other than Kanye. We'll get to that,
Speaker 2: you know, more on that tomorrow. And then also these
Speaker 2: latest developments in our hearts are with everybody on this
Speaker 2: Father's Day, Joseph to you as well. It's been a
Speaker 2: great show, so thank you everybody for joining us. Make
Speaker 2: sure you tune in tomorrow. This is true crime tonight.
Speaker 2: We're talking true crime all the time.