1 00:00:00,320 --> 00:00:04,000 Speaker 1: In the fall of twenty twenty three, Sam Altman was 2 00:00:04,120 --> 00:00:08,840 Speaker 1: more powerful than he'd ever been. He and his armies 3 00:00:08,840 --> 00:00:13,320 Speaker 1: of researchers had conquered new frontiers of technology and reaped 4 00:00:13,400 --> 00:00:18,040 Speaker 1: the financial rewards. He had defeated those who challenged his power. 5 00:00:18,440 --> 00:00:23,599 Speaker 1: Like Elon Musk, his dominance was cemented, or so it seemed. 6 00:00:25,160 --> 00:00:28,440 Speaker 1: Though he occupied the throne, there was in fact a 7 00:00:28,560 --> 00:00:34,600 Speaker 1: powerful and mysterious board that governed him. They had the 8 00:00:34,640 --> 00:00:38,519 Speaker 1: ability to fire him, to dissolve the whole company if 9 00:00:38,560 --> 00:00:42,800 Speaker 1: they saw fit. On this board there were six people, 10 00:00:43,600 --> 00:00:46,080 Speaker 1: and one of them was a woman named Helen Toner. 11 00:00:46,840 --> 00:00:50,159 Speaker 1: She was a researcher who studied AI systems, and you 12 00:00:50,200 --> 00:00:52,920 Speaker 1: can hear her passion here on the TED stage. 13 00:00:53,200 --> 00:00:55,920 Speaker 2: AI is already all around us, so we can't just 14 00:00:55,960 --> 00:00:58,600 Speaker 2: sit around and wait for things to become clearer. 15 00:00:59,440 --> 00:01:02,560 Speaker 1: In October, we're twenty twenty three, Helen co authored a 16 00:01:02,600 --> 00:01:07,120 Speaker 1: paper about various companies in the AI industry. As a researcher, 17 00:01:07,200 --> 00:01:10,319 Speaker 1: Helen published lots of papers, but this one was not 18 00:01:10,520 --> 00:01:14,480 Speaker 1: like the rest, because this one mentioned open AI and 19 00:01:14,520 --> 00:01:19,199 Speaker 1: it wasn't fully complementary. Here's my colleague, Sharene Gafari. 20 00:01:19,400 --> 00:01:22,880 Speaker 3: Toward the end of this document, they contrast open Ai 21 00:01:23,200 --> 00:01:24,399 Speaker 3: with a big competitor. 22 00:01:25,080 --> 00:01:29,160 Speaker 1: The competitor is Anthropic, the rival company started by former 23 00:01:29,280 --> 00:01:32,360 Speaker 1: open Ai employees, so it was a bit of a 24 00:01:32,440 --> 00:01:33,320 Speaker 1: sensitive subject. 25 00:01:34,120 --> 00:01:36,720 Speaker 3: And in part of that paper, basically they say that 26 00:01:36,760 --> 00:01:40,399 Speaker 3: Anthropic was more safe and contrasts that with the release 27 00:01:40,480 --> 00:01:44,320 Speaker 3: of open AI's chat GPT. You could read parts of 28 00:01:44,360 --> 00:01:47,680 Speaker 3: it as sort of shining up Anthropic as a better 29 00:01:48,000 --> 00:01:51,200 Speaker 3: model or example of how to be safe in terms 30 00:01:51,240 --> 00:01:53,520 Speaker 3: of how it's releasing its Ai models. 31 00:01:53,760 --> 00:01:58,280 Speaker 1: Now, Helen's paper only mentioned open Ai and Nthropic briefly, 32 00:01:59,040 --> 00:02:03,720 Speaker 1: and it's overall pretty benign comment, but Sam didn't like it. 33 00:02:04,120 --> 00:02:09,440 Speaker 1: He was upset. According to our reporting, Sam started back channeling, 34 00:02:10,040 --> 00:02:13,440 Speaker 1: talking to one board member then another to try to 35 00:02:13,480 --> 00:02:17,240 Speaker 1: gain their support to vote Helen out. He would approach 36 00:02:17,280 --> 00:02:20,959 Speaker 1: someone and say this other person agrees with me, when 37 00:02:21,000 --> 00:02:24,519 Speaker 1: sometimes that wasn't the case. A source told us that 38 00:02:24,840 --> 00:02:27,679 Speaker 1: at one point he said that a board member had 39 00:02:27,760 --> 00:02:31,720 Speaker 1: said Helen's obviously got to go, when in fact that 40 00:02:31,880 --> 00:02:34,560 Speaker 1: board member was on Helen's side. 41 00:02:34,600 --> 00:02:37,720 Speaker 2: Sam started lying to other board members in order to 42 00:02:37,720 --> 00:02:40,440 Speaker 2: try and push me off the board. We were already 43 00:02:40,480 --> 00:02:43,720 Speaker 2: talking pretty seriously about whether we needed to fire him 44 00:02:44,240 --> 00:02:47,160 Speaker 2: after years of this kind of thing. All four of 45 00:02:47,240 --> 00:02:50,000 Speaker 2: us who fired him came to the conclusion that we 46 00:02:50,120 --> 00:02:52,839 Speaker 2: just couldn't believe things that Sam was telling us. 47 00:02:53,240 --> 00:02:56,480 Speaker 1: That's Helen on the ted Ai show about six months 48 00:02:56,560 --> 00:02:59,799 Speaker 1: after this all went down. This is the first time 49 00:03:00,120 --> 00:03:05,640 Speaker 1: she publicly and unambiguously accused Sam of lying. She said 50 00:03:05,680 --> 00:03:09,360 Speaker 1: that the board saw through his tactics and it pushed 51 00:03:09,360 --> 00:03:13,560 Speaker 1: them to take dramatic action. By the way, we did 52 00:03:13,600 --> 00:03:17,080 Speaker 1: talk to an Open AYE spokesperson about Sam's alleged back channeling. 53 00:03:17,840 --> 00:03:21,400 Speaker 1: They told us that this account significantly differs from Sam's 54 00:03:21,400 --> 00:03:25,080 Speaker 1: recollection of these conversations, and they did not respond to 55 00:03:25,120 --> 00:03:28,200 Speaker 1: a list of questions that we sent them about this episode. Overall, 56 00:03:29,280 --> 00:03:30,919 Speaker 1: here's my colleague Rachel Metz. 57 00:03:31,520 --> 00:03:34,239 Speaker 4: Sam's trying to get them to remove Helen from the board, 58 00:03:35,040 --> 00:03:38,240 Speaker 4: but the board members feel like they're being manipulated and 59 00:03:38,440 --> 00:03:42,480 Speaker 4: perhaps hearing different people hearing different things. In the end, 60 00:03:42,880 --> 00:03:45,440 Speaker 4: instead of getting rid of Helen, the board decides to 61 00:03:45,440 --> 00:03:46,160 Speaker 4: get rid of Sam. 62 00:03:47,800 --> 00:03:51,840 Speaker 1: What happened with Helen's paper wasn't an isolated incident. It 63 00:03:51,880 --> 00:03:55,080 Speaker 1: was part of a bigger pattern of Sam's behavior. According 64 00:03:55,120 --> 00:03:58,520 Speaker 1: to our reporting, the board members had lost trust in 65 00:03:58,600 --> 00:04:02,520 Speaker 1: him over time. Helen says in the interview that Sam 66 00:04:02,560 --> 00:04:07,640 Speaker 1: had a habit of misrepresenting and withholding information, even outright lining, 67 00:04:08,320 --> 00:04:10,760 Speaker 1: which made it difficult for the board to do its job. 68 00:04:11,680 --> 00:04:14,520 Speaker 1: That job is to uphold the mission of open AI, 69 00:04:15,000 --> 00:04:19,359 Speaker 1: to ensure that advanced AI benefits all of humanity. And 70 00:04:19,400 --> 00:04:22,600 Speaker 1: the board members were starting to believe Sam was a 71 00:04:22,640 --> 00:04:26,440 Speaker 1: threat to that mission, so they start turning on Sam. 72 00:04:26,839 --> 00:04:32,520 Speaker 1: In particular, one very important, very surprising board member goes 73 00:04:32,560 --> 00:04:38,200 Speaker 1: behind Sam's back, Ilia sitt Skiver. Ilia one of Sam's 74 00:04:38,200 --> 00:04:42,240 Speaker 1: co founders. He had been there from day one, and 75 00:04:42,320 --> 00:04:45,719 Speaker 1: he was the AI researcher driving much of open AI's 76 00:04:45,760 --> 00:04:50,640 Speaker 1: technological progress. In fact, when Elon Musk goes on CNBC 77 00:04:50,839 --> 00:04:53,760 Speaker 1: to boast about his own role at open AI, he 78 00:04:53,920 --> 00:04:54,960 Speaker 1: name checks Ilia. 79 00:04:55,600 --> 00:04:59,800 Speaker 5: I am the reason OpenAI exists. I was instrumental in 80 00:05:00,080 --> 00:05:05,160 Speaker 5: cruiting the key scientists and engineers, most specifically, most notably 81 00:05:05,360 --> 00:05:09,120 Speaker 5: Ilia Soskayer, and ultimately decided to join opening And really, 82 00:05:09,680 --> 00:05:13,400 Speaker 5: Ilia joining was the was the lynchmann for Opening I 83 00:05:13,520 --> 00:05:14,600 Speaker 5: being ultimately successful. 84 00:05:14,600 --> 00:05:15,400 Speaker 6: You're very disappointed. 85 00:05:15,440 --> 00:05:19,200 Speaker 1: Ilia and Helen talked and two of the other board 86 00:05:19,200 --> 00:05:23,800 Speaker 1: members joined these conversations as well, and together they came 87 00:05:23,880 --> 00:05:28,000 Speaker 1: up with a secret plan. They would ambush Sam and 88 00:05:28,040 --> 00:05:35,800 Speaker 1: remove him from power for the good of humanity. You're 89 00:05:35,960 --> 00:05:41,200 Speaker 1: listening to Foundering. I'm your host Ellen Hewitt. In today's episode, 90 00:05:41,520 --> 00:05:45,080 Speaker 1: our final one for this series, will take you inside 91 00:05:45,200 --> 00:05:49,479 Speaker 1: the events that rocked open Ai last November. We'll cover 92 00:05:49,839 --> 00:05:53,320 Speaker 1: how Sam Altman was thrown out of his own company 93 00:05:53,839 --> 00:05:57,960 Speaker 1: and the series of chaotic events that followed. It's a 94 00:05:58,000 --> 00:06:04,920 Speaker 1: five day white knuckle boardroom drama, shock, betrayal, midnight negotiations. 95 00:06:06,400 --> 00:06:08,559 Speaker 1: You may think you know the story of the open 96 00:06:08,600 --> 00:06:12,839 Speaker 1: Ai coup, but will help you understand what happened behind 97 00:06:12,880 --> 00:06:15,960 Speaker 1: the scenes, how it all played out, and what it 98 00:06:16,040 --> 00:06:21,480 Speaker 1: says about Sam. The board members saw Sam as deceptive 99 00:06:21,839 --> 00:06:26,560 Speaker 1: and manipulative. In this episode, we'll dive into that question ourselves. 100 00:06:27,400 --> 00:06:32,000 Speaker 1: When Sam says something, can we trust it? We'll be 101 00:06:32,080 --> 00:06:42,280 Speaker 1: right back. Sam has always emphasized that it's very, very 102 00:06:42,360 --> 00:06:47,000 Speaker 1: important that he be able to be fired. As an example, 103 00:06:47,520 --> 00:06:50,039 Speaker 1: he set it in front of his employees at an 104 00:06:50,120 --> 00:06:54,440 Speaker 1: all hands meeting in twenty nineteen. Here's Reid Hoffman, the 105 00:06:54,480 --> 00:06:58,279 Speaker 1: co founder of LinkedIn and a famous venture capitalist. He 106 00:06:58,320 --> 00:07:02,039 Speaker 1: had recently joined the Open Ai board, and Sam brought 107 00:07:02,120 --> 00:07:03,880 Speaker 1: him up to talk on stage. 108 00:07:04,400 --> 00:07:06,839 Speaker 6: He ambushed me with the following question, which is, what 109 00:07:06,920 --> 00:07:09,159 Speaker 6: will you do if I'm not doing my job? And 110 00:07:09,200 --> 00:07:10,800 Speaker 6: I was like, oh, I've never been asked this by 111 00:07:10,800 --> 00:07:12,680 Speaker 6: a CEO in front of a company all hands before. 112 00:07:13,120 --> 00:07:15,200 Speaker 6: This is the internal thought track. I was like, well, 113 00:07:15,400 --> 00:07:18,000 Speaker 6: I'll help you, right, because like, oh, help you do 114 00:07:18,040 --> 00:07:19,960 Speaker 6: the job the right ways, you know, because I'm like, 115 00:07:19,960 --> 00:07:21,880 Speaker 6: what the hell, Sam, what you're asking me this question? 116 00:07:22,600 --> 00:07:24,720 Speaker 6: And he said no, no, okay, say that doesn't work and 117 00:07:24,760 --> 00:07:25,640 Speaker 6: I'm still not doing my job. 118 00:07:25,680 --> 00:07:26,000 Speaker 7: What do you do? 119 00:07:26,080 --> 00:07:29,120 Speaker 6: I'm like, well, okay, I fire you, like we get 120 00:07:29,160 --> 00:07:31,800 Speaker 6: a new CEO. And he's like, okay, great, And I 121 00:07:31,840 --> 00:07:35,520 Speaker 6: was like, okay, Like, never been asked by a CEO 122 00:07:35,560 --> 00:07:37,440 Speaker 6: in front of the entire company whether or not I 123 00:07:37,440 --> 00:07:39,080 Speaker 6: would fire them if they weren't doing the job. 124 00:07:39,760 --> 00:07:44,000 Speaker 1: Wow, that's refreshing. A CEO who wants to be held accountable, 125 00:07:44,560 --> 00:07:48,120 Speaker 1: A CEO who wants to be fireable. What a principled guy. 126 00:07:48,680 --> 00:07:52,840 Speaker 1: It makes you do a double take. On his media 127 00:07:52,920 --> 00:07:56,520 Speaker 1: tour in twenty twenty three, after the success of Chat GPT, 128 00:07:57,400 --> 00:08:00,400 Speaker 1: Sam makes this point not just to his employees but 129 00:08:00,480 --> 00:08:04,720 Speaker 1: to the world. In speech after speech, he emphasizes just 130 00:08:04,800 --> 00:08:08,440 Speaker 1: how fiable he is and how good that is. He 131 00:08:08,520 --> 00:08:11,960 Speaker 1: told an interviewer, I serve at the pleasure of the board. 132 00:08:12,840 --> 00:08:15,040 Speaker 1: I do this the old fashioned way. Or the board 133 00:08:15,040 --> 00:08:19,080 Speaker 1: can just decide to replace the CEO, he said at 134 00:08:19,080 --> 00:08:20,200 Speaker 1: a Bloomberg conference. 135 00:08:20,520 --> 00:08:22,400 Speaker 8: The board can fire me. I think that's important. 136 00:08:23,880 --> 00:08:27,080 Speaker 1: The board can fire me. The board can replace me 137 00:08:27,120 --> 00:08:31,840 Speaker 1: whenever they want. It sounds so humble. He had made 138 00:08:31,920 --> 00:08:34,600 Speaker 1: this a part of his brand, and I think it's 139 00:08:34,640 --> 00:08:37,680 Speaker 1: meant to convey that open ai is a different kind 140 00:08:37,679 --> 00:08:40,920 Speaker 1: of company and he is a different kind of CEO. 141 00:08:42,640 --> 00:08:46,240 Speaker 1: There's another way that Sam signals his good intentions. Here 142 00:08:47,080 --> 00:08:51,959 Speaker 1: he doesn't own any equity in open Ai. This is unusual. 143 00:08:52,679 --> 00:08:55,600 Speaker 1: Most startup founders own a big slice of their company. 144 00:08:56,120 --> 00:08:59,320 Speaker 1: If the company becomes really valuable, that means the founder 145 00:08:59,360 --> 00:09:03,720 Speaker 1: gets rich. Sam originally didn't take equity because of a 146 00:09:03,760 --> 00:09:07,920 Speaker 1: specific rule related to open ai being a nonprofit. Then 147 00:09:08,040 --> 00:09:11,240 Speaker 1: he just didn't take any more. Here he is with 148 00:09:11,280 --> 00:09:12,720 Speaker 1: my colleague Emily Chang. 149 00:09:13,200 --> 00:09:16,000 Speaker 9: So to be clear, like if open ai, you know, 150 00:09:16,160 --> 00:09:19,680 Speaker 9: is massively profitable, you won't benefit financially. 151 00:09:20,200 --> 00:09:23,360 Speaker 8: One of the takeaways I've learned from questions like this 152 00:09:23,600 --> 00:09:26,920 Speaker 8: is that this like concept of having enough money is 153 00:09:26,960 --> 00:09:29,320 Speaker 8: not something that is easy to get across to other people. 154 00:09:29,400 --> 00:09:32,520 Speaker 9: It's hard for people to understand. 155 00:09:32,840 --> 00:09:36,840 Speaker 8: But I like, I have enough money. 156 00:09:36,880 --> 00:09:40,600 Speaker 1: I'm gonna make The thing is Sam's already rich, He's 157 00:09:40,600 --> 00:09:44,640 Speaker 1: a billionaire from his startup investments. But he often makes 158 00:09:44,720 --> 00:09:48,040 Speaker 1: this point that he has no equity, that he's not 159 00:09:48,160 --> 00:09:51,760 Speaker 1: doing open Ai for the money. It's another way for 160 00:09:51,800 --> 00:09:55,760 Speaker 1: Sam to make himself sound non threatening. He uses it 161 00:09:55,800 --> 00:09:59,440 Speaker 1: to earn our trust by suggesting he can occupy this 162 00:09:59,720 --> 00:10:05,320 Speaker 1: very powerful position while remaining pure of heart. To his credit, 163 00:10:05,640 --> 00:10:09,240 Speaker 1: I think he's being somewhat earnest here. He's acknowledging that 164 00:10:09,280 --> 00:10:11,760 Speaker 1: he has a lot of money already and will make 165 00:10:11,880 --> 00:10:16,880 Speaker 1: lots more Separate from open Ai. Focusing on money is 166 00:10:16,920 --> 00:10:20,440 Speaker 1: a bit of a distraction, though. Even if Sam isn't 167 00:10:20,520 --> 00:10:23,800 Speaker 1: driven by money, he can still be hungry for other 168 00:10:23,920 --> 00:10:31,720 Speaker 1: perks that come with running open Ai. Power, fame, influence. Okay, Now, 169 00:10:31,800 --> 00:10:36,080 Speaker 1: this story picks up in November twenty twenty three. Sam 170 00:10:36,160 --> 00:10:38,960 Speaker 1: is at the peak of his game. His company is 171 00:10:39,040 --> 00:10:42,960 Speaker 1: valued at eighty six billion dollars. Open ai just held 172 00:10:42,960 --> 00:10:44,360 Speaker 1: its first Developer's Day. 173 00:10:44,800 --> 00:10:47,440 Speaker 10: Please welcome to the stage, Sam Altman. 174 00:10:50,840 --> 00:10:54,640 Speaker 8: Good morning, Welcome to our first ever open Ai dev Day. 175 00:10:55,000 --> 00:10:57,280 Speaker 8: We're thrilled that you're here and this energy is awesome. 176 00:11:00,240 --> 00:11:04,640 Speaker 1: Month Sam is speaking at APEC, an international conference where 177 00:11:04,679 --> 00:11:09,080 Speaker 1: world leaders are gathered in San Francisco. It's a Thursday evening. 178 00:11:09,640 --> 00:11:12,640 Speaker 1: He steps off the stage, then zips over to Oakland 179 00:11:12,880 --> 00:11:16,280 Speaker 1: to a warehouse that's associated with a burning Man Camp. 180 00:11:17,080 --> 00:11:20,520 Speaker 1: He gives another interview, this time in front of a 181 00:11:20,559 --> 00:11:22,160 Speaker 1: bunch of artists. 182 00:11:22,360 --> 00:11:25,079 Speaker 8: That desire to connect, that desire to know the human 183 00:11:25,120 --> 00:11:28,240 Speaker 8: behind it and be part of that community. I think, 184 00:11:28,280 --> 00:11:31,360 Speaker 8: in like a wash in a sea of tons of 185 00:11:31,920 --> 00:11:34,880 Speaker 8: machine generated art, debt, desire for the human connection will 186 00:11:34,880 --> 00:11:35,240 Speaker 8: go up. 187 00:11:35,200 --> 00:11:35,720 Speaker 11: Knock down. 188 00:11:36,360 --> 00:11:39,720 Speaker 1: Sam's telling the artists that AI will actually be great 189 00:11:39,760 --> 00:11:44,520 Speaker 1: for them. That night, Sam got a text from Ilia 190 00:11:45,040 --> 00:11:48,400 Speaker 1: asking if they could talk the following day, Friday, at noon, 191 00:11:49,360 --> 00:11:52,920 Speaker 1: Sam agreed he had no reason to believe anything was wrong. 192 00:11:54,360 --> 00:11:58,199 Speaker 1: Next Sam flew to Las Vegas. According to the Wall 193 00:11:58,200 --> 00:12:00,880 Speaker 1: Street Journal, he was hoping to catch a Formula one 194 00:12:01,080 --> 00:12:04,720 Speaker 1: race that weekend. He's really into race cars and owns 195 00:12:04,760 --> 00:12:10,760 Speaker 1: two McLaren's himself. So on Friday, he's in Vegas. At noon, 196 00:12:11,000 --> 00:12:14,080 Speaker 1: Sam clicked on a link to a Google meet. He 197 00:12:14,160 --> 00:12:17,480 Speaker 1: was met with four board members of open ai, including 198 00:12:17,520 --> 00:12:21,960 Speaker 1: Ilia and Helen. It was almost the entire board, but 199 00:12:22,160 --> 00:12:26,960 Speaker 1: one person was missing, Greg Brockman, president of open Ai, 200 00:12:27,480 --> 00:12:32,640 Speaker 1: Sam's co founder and his closest ally. The board didn't 201 00:12:32,679 --> 00:12:35,720 Speaker 1: need Greg to be there. They already had four votes 202 00:12:35,760 --> 00:12:41,000 Speaker 1: out of six. Ilia delivered the news, Sam, You're fired. 203 00:12:42,640 --> 00:12:46,640 Speaker 1: Sam was as shocked as anyone. The call was short. 204 00:12:47,360 --> 00:12:52,480 Speaker 1: At twelve nineteen, Ilia texted Greg asking to talk. At 205 00:12:52,480 --> 00:12:56,280 Speaker 1: twelve twenty three, Greg also clicked on a Google meet link. 206 00:12:57,520 --> 00:12:59,880 Speaker 1: They told Greg that he was being removed from the 207 00:13:00,080 --> 00:13:04,520 Speaker 1: board and that Sam was out. Things were kicking into 208 00:13:04,559 --> 00:13:10,600 Speaker 1: action fast. Open Ai published a blog post. It said 209 00:13:10,720 --> 00:13:13,680 Speaker 1: that the board had done a review and decided to 210 00:13:13,760 --> 00:13:18,920 Speaker 1: remove Sam because he was quote not consistently candid in 211 00:13:18,960 --> 00:13:24,200 Speaker 1: his communications with the board, and they added the board 212 00:13:24,320 --> 00:13:27,959 Speaker 1: no longer has confidence in his ability to continue leading 213 00:13:28,160 --> 00:13:31,480 Speaker 1: open Ai. Here's my colleague, Rachel Metz. 214 00:13:31,920 --> 00:13:34,760 Speaker 4: The first few lines of it, I didn't really understand 215 00:13:34,800 --> 00:13:39,160 Speaker 4: what was happening, and it took me a few seconds 216 00:13:39,160 --> 00:13:42,280 Speaker 4: to have that oh shit, mom. 217 00:13:42,240 --> 00:13:43,760 Speaker 12: L oh, we need to get back to some big 218 00:13:43,800 --> 00:13:46,000 Speaker 12: break you news that just crossed the wire, learning that 219 00:13:46,080 --> 00:13:49,240 Speaker 12: Sam Altman is leaving Open AI and we now have 220 00:13:49,320 --> 00:13:51,440 Speaker 12: a few more details on this. We're learning that the 221 00:13:51,480 --> 00:13:53,840 Speaker 12: decision was not voluntary. 222 00:13:53,400 --> 00:13:53,800 Speaker 3: At the point. 223 00:13:53,840 --> 00:13:55,120 Speaker 1: And here's my colleague Sharen. 224 00:13:55,559 --> 00:13:57,280 Speaker 3: This was one of the moments that I feel like 225 00:13:57,360 --> 00:14:00,319 Speaker 3: will be a shocking news moment of my career for 226 00:14:00,800 --> 00:14:04,160 Speaker 3: a business tech story. This is about as dramatic as 227 00:14:04,200 --> 00:14:04,720 Speaker 3: it gets. 228 00:14:05,200 --> 00:14:08,800 Speaker 1: The most surprising part of this was that a major 229 00:14:08,960 --> 00:14:12,079 Speaker 1: force behind this coup seemed to be Ilia. 230 00:14:12,800 --> 00:14:15,800 Speaker 3: Yeah, and I mean Ilia plays a key role in 231 00:14:15,800 --> 00:14:19,880 Speaker 3: this whole ouster. He is the brutus to Sam Caesar 232 00:14:20,360 --> 00:14:23,080 Speaker 3: and this is a huge betrayal. I mean, this is 233 00:14:23,080 --> 00:14:26,440 Speaker 3: the guy that's been working side by side with Sam 234 00:14:26,480 --> 00:14:29,880 Speaker 3: with Greg Brockmann, right and they're riding high at the 235 00:14:29,880 --> 00:14:32,280 Speaker 3: peak of their success right now. They should be a 236 00:14:32,320 --> 00:14:33,040 Speaker 3: happy trio. 237 00:14:33,280 --> 00:14:33,400 Speaker 5: Like. 238 00:14:33,480 --> 00:14:36,560 Speaker 3: It's just sort of a complete dissolution of what from 239 00:14:36,600 --> 00:14:39,120 Speaker 3: the outside looked like such a successful. 240 00:14:38,520 --> 00:14:43,600 Speaker 1: Partnership at two Ilia. We can't know what was going 241 00:14:43,640 --> 00:14:47,160 Speaker 1: on inside Ilia's head at that moment, but think about 242 00:14:47,160 --> 00:14:50,880 Speaker 1: the enormity of this all the board had planned this 243 00:14:51,040 --> 00:14:55,440 Speaker 1: in total secrecy because they suspected Sam might outmaneuver them 244 00:14:55,480 --> 00:14:59,200 Speaker 1: if he knew. They hadn't even told Microsoft until a 245 00:14:59,240 --> 00:15:03,800 Speaker 1: few minutes before they told Sam. They decided it had 246 00:15:03,840 --> 00:15:07,800 Speaker 1: to be cloak and dagger, an ambush, a stabbing at 247 00:15:07,800 --> 00:15:12,640 Speaker 1: the Senate. Ilia was also turning his back on Greg Brockman. 248 00:15:13,720 --> 00:15:16,680 Speaker 1: Greg was a staunch ally of Sam, so the board 249 00:15:16,720 --> 00:15:19,880 Speaker 1: had excluded him from their meetings about this plan, and 250 00:15:19,920 --> 00:15:23,880 Speaker 1: they booted him from the board. For Ilia, this had 251 00:15:23,920 --> 00:15:28,320 Speaker 1: to feel heavy. He and Greg had been close back 252 00:15:28,320 --> 00:15:31,960 Speaker 1: in the early idealistic days of open Ai. It was 253 00:15:32,000 --> 00:15:35,200 Speaker 1: the two of them running things, Greg chugging away at 254 00:15:35,240 --> 00:15:39,360 Speaker 1: the business and Ilia dreaming up their research projects. I 255 00:15:39,440 --> 00:15:45,040 Speaker 1: mean Ilia had officiated Greg's wedding. Now that relationship was severed. 256 00:15:46,760 --> 00:15:50,160 Speaker 1: Right after the blog post went out, Greg tweeted that 257 00:15:50,280 --> 00:15:53,640 Speaker 1: he was resigning from open ai in solidarity with Sam. 258 00:15:54,600 --> 00:15:58,000 Speaker 1: The board announced that the interim CEO was Mira Murradi, 259 00:15:58,200 --> 00:16:02,960 Speaker 1: an open Ai executive, on Friday afternoon. Then well into 260 00:16:03,000 --> 00:16:08,280 Speaker 1: the night, reporters were calling, texting, talking to sources trying 261 00:16:08,320 --> 00:16:11,680 Speaker 1: to figure out what the hell was going on. Here's 262 00:16:11,720 --> 00:16:12,920 Speaker 1: Sharene and Rachel again. 263 00:16:13,280 --> 00:16:15,560 Speaker 3: I was a scramble to figure out, well, why are 264 00:16:15,560 --> 00:16:17,400 Speaker 3: you saying that he's lied, and if so. 265 00:16:17,440 --> 00:16:18,480 Speaker 1: What did he lie about? 266 00:16:18,640 --> 00:16:25,400 Speaker 4: The board statement was so brief and so vague that 267 00:16:25,480 --> 00:16:28,040 Speaker 4: it left all this room open for speculation. 268 00:16:28,880 --> 00:16:32,320 Speaker 1: Everyone was obsessed with one phrase from the memo, not 269 00:16:32,560 --> 00:16:37,800 Speaker 1: consistently candid. The board was all but saying that Sam 270 00:16:37,960 --> 00:16:41,560 Speaker 1: had been a sneaky liar, but they were also vague 271 00:16:41,640 --> 00:16:45,680 Speaker 1: about the details. Reporters weren't the only people who jumped 272 00:16:45,680 --> 00:16:49,680 Speaker 1: on this. A former open ai employee named Jeffrey Irving 273 00:16:50,080 --> 00:16:54,000 Speaker 1: tweeted that although Sam was always nice to him, he 274 00:16:54,240 --> 00:16:58,120 Speaker 1: lied to him on various occasions too, and he said 275 00:16:58,440 --> 00:17:02,280 Speaker 1: that Sam was deceptive and manipulative to others that he knew. 276 00:17:03,000 --> 00:17:07,399 Speaker 1: Jeffrey didn't respond when we asked him to clarify. The Internet, 277 00:17:07,720 --> 00:17:12,480 Speaker 1: especially Twitter, flooded with theories about why Sam had been fired. 278 00:17:13,280 --> 00:17:17,840 Speaker 1: Many of them were completely speculative. Had Ilia glimpsed some 279 00:17:18,000 --> 00:17:22,200 Speaker 1: kind of advanced AGI internally and freaked out and wanted 280 00:17:22,200 --> 00:17:25,639 Speaker 1: to hit a kill switch? The question became a meme 281 00:17:25,800 --> 00:17:32,600 Speaker 1: on social media. What did Ilia see? Anyway? While everyone 282 00:17:32,680 --> 00:17:37,000 Speaker 1: was trying to answer that, the weekend descended into chaos 283 00:17:37,440 --> 00:17:40,479 Speaker 1: On Friday, Sam and Greg thought they were just going 284 00:17:40,520 --> 00:17:42,800 Speaker 1: to pack up and start a new company, I guess, 285 00:17:43,680 --> 00:17:46,600 Speaker 1: and Open AI's board members were looking for a permanent 286 00:17:46,640 --> 00:17:51,719 Speaker 1: CEO to take over. But on Saturday, a new idea 287 00:17:51,840 --> 00:17:57,159 Speaker 1: came into the picture that Sam should come back. Investors 288 00:17:57,160 --> 00:18:01,520 Speaker 1: and employees started pressuring the remaining board members to undo 289 00:18:01,600 --> 00:18:04,800 Speaker 1: their decision and reinstate Sam. 290 00:18:04,680 --> 00:18:06,760 Speaker 13: Back to the open AI story. It is still the 291 00:18:06,760 --> 00:18:09,720 Speaker 13: top story. What is happening within open AI HQ three 292 00:18:09,720 --> 00:18:12,520 Speaker 13: miles from where I'm standing? Is Sam Altman coming back? 293 00:18:12,560 --> 00:18:12,800 Speaker 9: On not? 294 00:18:12,920 --> 00:18:16,879 Speaker 3: I'm parked hoodside of open Aey's offices on Sunday with 295 00:18:16,960 --> 00:18:19,840 Speaker 3: a handful of other AI reporters trying to see you know, 296 00:18:19,880 --> 00:18:23,440 Speaker 3: Sam's reportedly in the open a office negotiating a comeback. 297 00:18:23,760 --> 00:18:27,159 Speaker 3: So I go there. I'm like, you know, hanging out outside. 298 00:18:27,440 --> 00:18:30,679 Speaker 3: I'm like looking, can we see Sam coming out or leaving? 299 00:18:30,760 --> 00:18:32,800 Speaker 4: And like waiting for a new pope to be named? 300 00:18:32,880 --> 00:18:34,879 Speaker 4: You know, you're waiting for the smoke signal to come up. 301 00:18:34,920 --> 00:18:37,159 Speaker 3: Totally, it was like waiting for a smoke signal from 302 00:18:37,160 --> 00:18:37,600 Speaker 3: the pope. 303 00:18:37,960 --> 00:18:41,040 Speaker 1: The twists kept coming on Sunday night. 304 00:18:41,359 --> 00:18:44,440 Speaker 9: The situation it just continues to unfold, and it's chaotic. 305 00:18:44,640 --> 00:18:46,560 Speaker 9: Certainly has been for the last few days of boardroom 306 00:18:46,600 --> 00:18:48,959 Speaker 9: coup investors pushing for Altman's return. 307 00:18:49,440 --> 00:18:51,840 Speaker 13: Okay, fast forward to present day. This is the latest. 308 00:18:51,880 --> 00:18:55,280 Speaker 13: After a game of musical chairs, Microsoft announces that Altman 309 00:18:55,720 --> 00:18:59,600 Speaker 13: and his co founder Greg Brockman will join Microsoft. This 310 00:18:59,640 --> 00:19:02,800 Speaker 13: announce on literally on the heels of a frenetic weekend 311 00:19:02,800 --> 00:19:07,800 Speaker 13: in Silicon Valley following the aftermath of Altman's firing on Friday, Microsoft. 312 00:19:07,359 --> 00:19:11,520 Speaker 1: Shads in addition to hiring Sam and Greg, Microsoft actually 313 00:19:11,520 --> 00:19:14,639 Speaker 1: offers to hire any open ai employee who wants to 314 00:19:14,760 --> 00:19:18,280 Speaker 1: leave to join them. At the same time, the open 315 00:19:18,280 --> 00:19:22,359 Speaker 1: ai board has stayed firm even as talks were progressing 316 00:19:22,440 --> 00:19:26,080 Speaker 1: about maybe bringing Sam back. The board made a new 317 00:19:26,119 --> 00:19:27,480 Speaker 1: announcement late Sunday. 318 00:19:27,520 --> 00:19:30,840 Speaker 5: Emmitt Sheer was appointed interim CEO of open Ai after 319 00:19:30,880 --> 00:19:34,000 Speaker 5: the board quietly vetted candidates starting on Saturday night. 320 00:19:35,800 --> 00:19:39,840 Speaker 1: Emmett Sheer the co founder of Twitch. The board had 321 00:19:39,880 --> 00:19:43,080 Speaker 1: been scrambling to find an interim CEO, and this is 322 00:19:43,160 --> 00:19:46,119 Speaker 1: who they got. Emmett was a funny choice for a 323 00:19:46,160 --> 00:19:49,760 Speaker 1: couple reasons. He was actually one of the other founders 324 00:19:49,800 --> 00:19:53,120 Speaker 1: in that very first batch of y combinator with Sam 325 00:19:53,320 --> 00:19:58,320 Speaker 1: almost twenty years earlier, and he has also said publicly 326 00:19:58,560 --> 00:20:02,239 Speaker 1: that he worries a lot about AI going rogue and 327 00:20:02,320 --> 00:20:05,959 Speaker 1: destroying the world. You can hear a mix of confidence 328 00:20:06,040 --> 00:20:09,200 Speaker 1: and fear in his voice on the Logan Bartlett podcast 329 00:20:09,720 --> 00:20:13,720 Speaker 1: when he talked in twenty twenty three about super intelligent AI, and. 330 00:20:13,680 --> 00:20:16,040 Speaker 7: That kind of intelligence is just an intrinsically very dangerous 331 00:20:16,080 --> 00:20:19,960 Speaker 7: thing because intelligence is power. Human beings are the dominant 332 00:20:19,960 --> 00:20:22,360 Speaker 7: form of life on this planet pretty much entirely because 333 00:20:22,359 --> 00:20:24,720 Speaker 7: we're more smarter than the other creatures. It's like a 334 00:20:24,800 --> 00:20:27,280 Speaker 7: universe destroying bomb. Like this is not a figure it 335 00:20:27,280 --> 00:20:31,399 Speaker 7: out later thing. This is like a big problem Southern Manhattan, Miami. 336 00:20:32,040 --> 00:20:35,840 Speaker 1: Amidst all of this, things were getting really heated for Ilia. 337 00:20:36,840 --> 00:20:39,680 Speaker 1: Of the four board members who voted to remove Sam, 338 00:20:40,280 --> 00:20:43,640 Speaker 1: he's the only one who works at Open AI. He's 339 00:20:43,640 --> 00:20:48,080 Speaker 1: there alongside other employees, so he was experiencing the decision 340 00:20:48,200 --> 00:20:50,960 Speaker 1: in a much more direct way than anyone else on 341 00:20:51,000 --> 00:20:51,399 Speaker 1: the board. 342 00:20:51,880 --> 00:20:55,960 Speaker 3: I think within the company also, you see a confusion 343 00:20:56,160 --> 00:21:00,119 Speaker 3: as to Ilia's motivations, you know, and I knew We're 344 00:21:00,119 --> 00:21:03,080 Speaker 3: hearing that sort of staff are bewildered or confused like 345 00:21:03,160 --> 00:21:05,520 Speaker 3: why did Ilia do this? And that if he has 346 00:21:05,560 --> 00:21:07,680 Speaker 3: a good reason that why doesn't he come out and 347 00:21:07,760 --> 00:21:10,879 Speaker 3: say it. Ilia is a very visible, well known and 348 00:21:10,960 --> 00:21:14,840 Speaker 3: previously seemingly well liked person at open Ai, and all 349 00:21:14,880 --> 00:21:16,959 Speaker 3: of a sudden, you know, you have staff feeling like 350 00:21:17,640 --> 00:21:19,520 Speaker 3: who is this guy? Like why did he turn on Sam? 351 00:21:19,520 --> 00:21:21,480 Speaker 3: And why did he sort of screw our company? Or 352 00:21:22,040 --> 00:21:24,160 Speaker 3: and why did he you know, put us in this position? 353 00:21:24,240 --> 00:21:24,520 Speaker 2: Now? 354 00:21:25,359 --> 00:21:30,120 Speaker 1: Open Ai employees were confused and starting to get angry. 355 00:21:31,080 --> 00:21:36,040 Speaker 1: They were rapidly souring on the board, including Ilia. On Sunday, 356 00:21:36,320 --> 00:21:40,120 Speaker 1: Ilia invited open Ai employees to an all hands meeting. 357 00:21:40,320 --> 00:21:44,520 Speaker 3: And basically no one shows up. Very few people, right, 358 00:21:44,600 --> 00:21:46,880 Speaker 3: and it's clear that he just doesn't have the support 359 00:21:47,240 --> 00:21:50,520 Speaker 3: of his company, and you know, people are furious with him. 360 00:21:50,960 --> 00:21:53,200 Speaker 4: I think, in part, what all this did was show 361 00:21:53,480 --> 00:21:56,720 Speaker 4: the board members who had forced out Sam Altman that 362 00:21:56,760 --> 00:21:59,400 Speaker 4: there was a lot more employee loyalty than they had 363 00:21:59,400 --> 00:22:04,240 Speaker 4: thought there was, and that they may have actually kicked 364 00:22:04,280 --> 00:22:06,920 Speaker 4: off a complete revolt inside the company. 365 00:22:07,560 --> 00:22:12,480 Speaker 1: And Ilia was also getting other sorts of pressure. According 366 00:22:12,480 --> 00:22:16,360 Speaker 1: to The Wall Street Journal, Greg Brockman's wife Anna had 367 00:22:16,359 --> 00:22:19,520 Speaker 1: a tearful conversation with Ilia in the lobby of open 368 00:22:19,560 --> 00:22:22,919 Speaker 1: Ai that Sunday evening. She was pleading with him to 369 00:22:22,960 --> 00:22:27,080 Speaker 1: reconsider his plan to change his mind and bring Sam back. 370 00:22:28,400 --> 00:22:32,040 Speaker 1: Around one thirty am Monday morning, a group of fed 371 00:22:32,119 --> 00:22:36,080 Speaker 1: up open ai employees drafted a letter to the board. 372 00:22:36,119 --> 00:22:38,919 Speaker 1: They said the way the board had fired Sam and 373 00:22:39,119 --> 00:22:43,760 Speaker 1: hadn't given an adequate explanation had shown they weren't capable 374 00:22:43,840 --> 00:22:45,000 Speaker 1: of leading the company. 375 00:22:46,040 --> 00:22:48,919 Speaker 4: I woke up early the next morning to see people 376 00:22:48,960 --> 00:22:51,840 Speaker 4: were signing petitions saying they were going to leave the 377 00:22:51,840 --> 00:22:55,439 Speaker 4: company if Sam didn't come back. This is hundreds, quickly, 378 00:22:55,640 --> 00:22:57,879 Speaker 4: hundreds and hundreds. In the end, almost all of the 379 00:22:57,880 --> 00:23:01,679 Speaker 4: company's nearly eight hundred employees signed this, posting on social 380 00:23:01,720 --> 00:23:04,679 Speaker 4: media that open ai is nothing without its people. This 381 00:23:04,800 --> 00:23:07,720 Speaker 4: becomes sort of a viral tagline that you see all 382 00:23:07,800 --> 00:23:13,159 Speaker 4: over on x and it seems organic and fast moving 383 00:23:13,640 --> 00:23:15,280 Speaker 4: and sincere. 384 00:23:15,440 --> 00:23:20,280 Speaker 1: Soon Twitter is full of these declarations. Sam and Greg 385 00:23:20,359 --> 00:23:24,280 Speaker 1: start replying to the tweets with heart emojis. It was 386 00:23:24,359 --> 00:23:26,600 Speaker 1: an impressive display of loyalty. 387 00:23:26,880 --> 00:23:30,639 Speaker 13: Open Ai investors are still trying to return co founder 388 00:23:30,760 --> 00:23:33,199 Speaker 13: Sam Outman to a leadership role at the company. At 389 00:23:33,240 --> 00:23:36,360 Speaker 13: the same time, open ai staff are threatening mass mutiny, 390 00:23:36,400 --> 00:23:41,440 Speaker 13: saying they'll follow Outman to Microsoft unless the board resigns Microhoe. 391 00:23:41,440 --> 00:23:45,680 Speaker 1: In addition to heart emojis and support and loyalty, there 392 00:23:45,720 --> 00:23:50,280 Speaker 1: was another factor at play as well. Money. Right before 393 00:23:50,280 --> 00:23:53,439 Speaker 1: the coup, open Ai had been organizing a share sale 394 00:23:53,440 --> 00:23:58,880 Speaker 1: for its employees, letting employees cash out some of their equity. Now, 395 00:23:58,920 --> 00:24:02,240 Speaker 1: with all this chaos us that sale was in danger. 396 00:24:03,000 --> 00:24:04,760 Speaker 1: There was a lot of money at stake. 397 00:24:05,280 --> 00:24:09,000 Speaker 3: This could create a whole new class of basically overnight millionaires, 398 00:24:09,320 --> 00:24:11,399 Speaker 3: and they're looking forward to this, and then now you 399 00:24:11,440 --> 00:24:13,719 Speaker 3: have the entire future of the company sort of up 400 00:24:13,760 --> 00:24:16,880 Speaker 3: in the air. Certain investors are saying that they may 401 00:24:17,160 --> 00:24:21,840 Speaker 3: not continue with the tender offer if Sam doesn't come back. 402 00:24:22,400 --> 00:24:25,479 Speaker 3: So you know, goodbye to that house you were planning 403 00:24:25,480 --> 00:24:28,199 Speaker 3: on buying, or that early retirement you wanted to do. 404 00:24:30,119 --> 00:24:34,520 Speaker 1: So that's a pretty strong financial incentive to sign this letter, 405 00:24:35,560 --> 00:24:38,159 Speaker 1: and you could imagine that if ninety five percent of 406 00:24:38,200 --> 00:24:42,080 Speaker 1: your colleagues had signed a letter, there's significant pressure for 407 00:24:42,119 --> 00:24:45,359 Speaker 1: you to sign it too. The craziest part of the 408 00:24:45,400 --> 00:24:50,040 Speaker 1: petition is that it includes Ilia's name. By Monday morning, 409 00:24:50,440 --> 00:24:55,240 Speaker 1: he has flipped. He tweeted, I deeply regret my participation 410 00:24:55,359 --> 00:24:59,040 Speaker 1: in the board's actions. I never intended to harm open AI. 411 00:25:00,000 --> 00:25:02,720 Speaker 1: I will do everything I can to reunite the company. 412 00:25:04,240 --> 00:25:07,439 Speaker 1: Perhaps Ilia was swayed by the outpouring of support for 413 00:25:07,560 --> 00:25:12,440 Speaker 1: Sam from the entire company, or maybe he folded because 414 00:25:12,440 --> 00:25:16,600 Speaker 1: he realized his position was not looking strong here' Sharen. 415 00:25:16,760 --> 00:25:18,919 Speaker 3: I think you know, if you're Ilia, you also he 416 00:25:19,040 --> 00:25:22,359 Speaker 3: was feeling so much pressure from his fellow colleagues and peers. 417 00:25:22,400 --> 00:25:25,280 Speaker 3: You know, you have this overwhelming flood of people sort 418 00:25:25,320 --> 00:25:28,280 Speaker 3: of making fun of Ilia and the board and or 419 00:25:28,320 --> 00:25:30,800 Speaker 3: saying like how could you do this, and just sort 420 00:25:30,840 --> 00:25:34,760 Speaker 3: of not taking this new leadership seriously. And so if 421 00:25:34,760 --> 00:25:36,800 Speaker 3: you're Iliah, you know you have to be like really 422 00:25:36,840 --> 00:25:41,080 Speaker 3: asking yourself if what the path forward is here? And so, 423 00:25:41,320 --> 00:25:43,320 Speaker 3: you know, it kind of makes sense why he ends 424 00:25:43,359 --> 00:25:45,880 Speaker 3: up reversing his decision and doing it complete when Ady 425 00:25:45,880 --> 00:25:46,359 Speaker 3: in a couple of. 426 00:25:46,359 --> 00:25:51,480 Speaker 1: Days, once Ilia flipped back to team Sam, and after 427 00:25:51,600 --> 00:25:55,159 Speaker 1: all those employees had signed that letter, that was the 428 00:25:55,200 --> 00:25:58,159 Speaker 1: beginning of the end of this effort to fire Sam. 429 00:25:59,280 --> 00:26:03,360 Speaker 1: The remaining board members realized they had lost. They gave 430 00:26:03,480 --> 00:26:06,000 Speaker 1: up on trying to get rid of Sam, and instead 431 00:26:06,040 --> 00:26:09,920 Speaker 1: focused on trying to get some concessions, like keeping him 432 00:26:09,960 --> 00:26:12,880 Speaker 1: off the board until an investigation could be done into 433 00:26:12,960 --> 00:26:17,480 Speaker 1: his conduct. Monday and Tuesday were hectic days full of 434 00:26:17,560 --> 00:26:21,720 Speaker 1: negotiations on how to bring Sam back. In just a 435 00:26:21,760 --> 00:26:25,280 Speaker 1: few days, Sam had grappled his way into a dominant 436 00:26:25,280 --> 00:26:30,160 Speaker 1: position once again. Now, the question in these tense negotiations 437 00:26:30,320 --> 00:26:34,080 Speaker 1: wasn't if Sam could be allowed back, it was how 438 00:26:34,080 --> 00:26:35,240 Speaker 1: do we please Sam? 439 00:26:35,840 --> 00:26:38,879 Speaker 3: So all of a sudden, this board that orchestrates acup 440 00:26:38,920 --> 00:26:43,399 Speaker 3: sort of loses their leverage and Sam just seems like 441 00:26:43,440 --> 00:26:45,800 Speaker 3: kind of holds all the cards, and it becomes about, well, 442 00:26:45,840 --> 00:26:48,280 Speaker 3: how can we make a deal that Sam is amenable to. 443 00:26:49,640 --> 00:26:53,560 Speaker 1: By Tuesday night, they've reached a deal. The board is 444 00:26:53,600 --> 00:26:57,919 Speaker 1: going to be overhauled. Helen is out, as is another 445 00:26:57,960 --> 00:27:01,840 Speaker 1: board member who voted against Sam. Ilia is off the 446 00:27:01,840 --> 00:27:05,800 Speaker 1: board too, though he's still working at open AI. New 447 00:27:05,920 --> 00:27:11,480 Speaker 1: board members will be found. Most importantly, Sam returns as 448 00:27:11,600 --> 00:27:16,679 Speaker 1: CEO Greg comes back too. Greg tweets a celebratory picture 449 00:27:16,800 --> 00:27:17,840 Speaker 1: to mark the occasion. 450 00:27:18,400 --> 00:27:21,840 Speaker 3: So, after Sam gets reinstated a CEO, Greg Brockman goes 451 00:27:21,920 --> 00:27:25,040 Speaker 3: on x and he posts this selfie with a bunch 452 00:27:25,040 --> 00:27:27,920 Speaker 3: of staff members like huddled behind him, and they're all 453 00:27:27,960 --> 00:27:30,680 Speaker 3: grinning ear to ear and we're holding at peace signs, 454 00:27:31,040 --> 00:27:35,520 Speaker 3: and he posts we are so back, which just sums 455 00:27:35,600 --> 00:27:38,560 Speaker 3: up the mood so well. Right, they're jubilant, they're just 456 00:27:38,600 --> 00:27:43,840 Speaker 3: like partying. You know, this is a complete win, that's right. 457 00:27:44,240 --> 00:27:47,560 Speaker 1: They sent a company wide memo that night telling people 458 00:27:47,600 --> 00:27:52,320 Speaker 1: to come to the office to party. It's an unbelievable turnaround. 459 00:27:52,880 --> 00:27:56,919 Speaker 1: In just five days, Sam went from being ambushed to 460 00:27:57,000 --> 00:28:01,480 Speaker 1: being back as CEO, with his enemies cast out and 461 00:28:01,600 --> 00:28:04,639 Speaker 1: an army of employees willing to give up their jobs 462 00:28:04,680 --> 00:28:08,800 Speaker 1: on his behalf. In this version of the story, Caesar 463 00:28:09,000 --> 00:28:10,240 Speaker 1: rises from the dead. 464 00:28:10,600 --> 00:28:13,320 Speaker 3: He really does come back, in my view, stronger than 465 00:28:13,359 --> 00:28:17,760 Speaker 3: ever because he not only has you know, this new 466 00:28:17,840 --> 00:28:22,080 Speaker 3: board that's that's he's helped hand select, but he has 467 00:28:22,119 --> 00:28:27,320 Speaker 3: the entire backing of his company and this implicit kind 468 00:28:27,320 --> 00:28:29,520 Speaker 3: of card that he can pull it if at any point, 469 00:28:29,760 --> 00:28:33,400 Speaker 3: you know, he wants to, like Microsoft, will, We'll back 470 00:28:33,480 --> 00:28:35,520 Speaker 3: him up. We'll have a spot for him and all 471 00:28:35,560 --> 00:28:38,800 Speaker 3: the employees who want to leave and go start their 472 00:28:38,840 --> 00:28:42,640 Speaker 3: own version of the company. And so yeah, I think Sam, 473 00:28:42,680 --> 00:28:45,280 Speaker 3: in many ways, it's sort of like, if you come 474 00:28:45,280 --> 00:28:47,640 Speaker 3: for the King, you best not miss like they really missed. 475 00:28:48,400 --> 00:28:56,080 Speaker 1: We'll be right back. So after five dramatic head spinning days, 476 00:28:56,520 --> 00:29:00,840 Speaker 1: Sam was back. It was late Tuesday night. That week 477 00:29:01,080 --> 00:29:04,360 Speaker 1: open Ai was actually off. It was a week of Thanksgiving, 478 00:29:05,120 --> 00:29:08,400 Speaker 1: so the employees breathed a sigh of relief and tried 479 00:29:08,440 --> 00:29:11,920 Speaker 1: to enjoy the holiday. And once that week was over 480 00:29:12,080 --> 00:29:14,959 Speaker 1: and people got back to work, there was still this 481 00:29:15,120 --> 00:29:19,320 Speaker 1: question that was never really answered. Why did Ilia and 482 00:29:19,360 --> 00:29:23,880 Speaker 1: the others believe they should fire Sam. Sam and open 483 00:29:23,920 --> 00:29:28,040 Speaker 1: Ai have never answered this question in a public transparent way. 484 00:29:29,440 --> 00:29:32,440 Speaker 1: As part of the deal to bring back Sam, open 485 00:29:32,480 --> 00:29:35,360 Speaker 1: Ai agreed to hire a law firm to lead an 486 00:29:35,360 --> 00:29:39,120 Speaker 1: external investigation into the events that led to Sam's ouster. 487 00:29:40,520 --> 00:29:43,400 Speaker 1: The company was not required to share the details of 488 00:29:43,440 --> 00:29:48,800 Speaker 1: the investigation publicly, so surprise, they didn't. They held a 489 00:29:48,840 --> 00:29:51,960 Speaker 1: press conference and summarized the findings, and. 490 00:29:52,000 --> 00:29:56,360 Speaker 6: The special committee recommended in the full board expressed their 491 00:29:56,360 --> 00:29:58,720 Speaker 6: full confidence in Sam Altman and Greg Brockman. 492 00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:03,640 Speaker 4: It was not super specific, but essentially it said that 493 00:30:03,720 --> 00:30:05,400 Speaker 4: Altman had been cleared of wrongdoing. 494 00:30:05,920 --> 00:30:08,120 Speaker 3: There was not a lot, There was no smoking gun. 495 00:30:08,520 --> 00:30:12,400 Speaker 3: The report of the summary was very brief. We you know, 496 00:30:12,440 --> 00:30:15,440 Speaker 3: as reporters have not seen the full investigation. 497 00:30:16,440 --> 00:30:20,800 Speaker 1: The press conference was really short. My colleague Rachel recorded 498 00:30:20,800 --> 00:30:23,640 Speaker 1: this tape. You can hear her typing in the background. 499 00:30:24,840 --> 00:30:28,320 Speaker 1: When it's Sam's turn to talk. He sounds really mumbly 500 00:30:28,600 --> 00:30:32,640 Speaker 1: and begrudging. He makes a half hearted apology to Helen Toner, 501 00:30:33,000 --> 00:30:34,760 Speaker 1: but it's easy to miss when I. 502 00:30:34,840 --> 00:30:37,160 Speaker 8: Believe that a former board member was harmon opening after 503 00:30:37,200 --> 00:30:37,760 Speaker 8: the actions. 504 00:30:38,280 --> 00:30:39,000 Speaker 5: I think I could have. 505 00:30:38,920 --> 00:30:42,360 Speaker 8: Handled that situation with more grace and care. I apologize 506 00:30:42,360 --> 00:30:44,400 Speaker 8: for that. I wish I'd done it differently, and we'll 507 00:30:44,480 --> 00:30:46,960 Speaker 8: learn from the future. I'm eager to move forward and 508 00:30:47,000 --> 00:30:47,880 Speaker 8: to begin the collaborate with. 509 00:30:48,040 --> 00:30:52,000 Speaker 1: After the investigation concluded with a whimper, two board members 510 00:30:52,000 --> 00:30:56,400 Speaker 1: who were kicked off, Helen Toner and Tasha McCauley, released 511 00:30:56,440 --> 00:31:02,480 Speaker 1: a statement. It said, in part, as we told the investigators, deception, 512 00:31:02,920 --> 00:31:09,080 Speaker 1: manipulation and resistance to throw oversight should be unacceptable. It's 513 00:31:09,120 --> 00:31:12,600 Speaker 1: a carefully worded sentence, but it's also pretty clear to 514 00:31:12,640 --> 00:31:16,320 Speaker 1: me that they're saying deception and manipulation played a big 515 00:31:16,400 --> 00:31:21,160 Speaker 1: part in them deciding to fire Sam. After all the 516 00:31:21,240 --> 00:31:24,640 Speaker 1: dust settled, Ilia remained a troubling question. Mark. 517 00:31:25,240 --> 00:31:31,000 Speaker 3: I think we still don't know Ilia's full motivation for 518 00:31:31,720 --> 00:31:34,800 Speaker 3: turning on Sam. I think he in particular being the 519 00:31:34,800 --> 00:31:36,680 Speaker 3: one who knows Sam so well, who's worked with him 520 00:31:36,720 --> 00:31:40,080 Speaker 3: so closely, And that is a big question of like, 521 00:31:40,120 --> 00:31:43,680 Speaker 3: why would you questions for the character of someone who 522 00:31:43,760 --> 00:31:45,760 Speaker 3: you seemingly have a good relationship with. 523 00:31:46,520 --> 00:31:50,000 Speaker 1: Ilia left Open AI in May, half a year after 524 00:31:50,040 --> 00:31:55,200 Speaker 1: the coup. He spent those six months in purgatory, still 525 00:31:55,240 --> 00:32:00,000 Speaker 1: an employee at the company, but rarely seen at the office, 526 00:31:59,680 --> 00:32:03,720 Speaker 1: no public appearances. When reporters tried to reach him, they 527 00:32:03,720 --> 00:32:07,000 Speaker 1: were sent to his lawyer, who almost never issued a statement. 528 00:32:08,320 --> 00:32:10,880 Speaker 1: It got to the point where Sam even joked about 529 00:32:10,920 --> 00:32:14,680 Speaker 1: it on podcasts. Here he is on Lex Friedman in March. 530 00:32:15,080 --> 00:32:16,080 Speaker 12: Let me ask you about Iliah. 531 00:32:17,560 --> 00:32:19,120 Speaker 2: Is he being held hostage in a. 532 00:32:19,080 --> 00:32:20,320 Speaker 12: Secret nuclear facility? 533 00:32:20,360 --> 00:32:20,479 Speaker 14: No? 534 00:32:21,080 --> 00:32:24,560 Speaker 3: What about a regular secret facility? No, what about a nuclear, 535 00:32:24,640 --> 00:32:25,479 Speaker 3: non secret facility? 536 00:32:26,600 --> 00:32:28,280 Speaker 6: Not that I mean this is becoming. 537 00:32:28,760 --> 00:32:31,640 Speaker 1: In the video, Sam is smiling. You can hear it 538 00:32:31,680 --> 00:32:35,680 Speaker 1: in his voice. He deflects this question. He says, it's 539 00:32:35,680 --> 00:32:39,600 Speaker 1: a question for Ilia. In all of this, Ilia seems 540 00:32:39,640 --> 00:32:43,640 Speaker 1: to have been the most tragic figure the brilliant scientist 541 00:32:43,680 --> 00:32:47,560 Speaker 1: who gave open Ai credibility and a competitive edge, who 542 00:32:47,600 --> 00:32:49,880 Speaker 1: has been able to predict many of the changes in 543 00:32:49,920 --> 00:32:54,880 Speaker 1: AI that made these recent advancements possible. But then he 544 00:32:54,960 --> 00:32:59,480 Speaker 1: attempted to overthrow Sam and failed, becoming a pariah among 545 00:32:59,520 --> 00:33:04,320 Speaker 1: the staff, and ultimately he did this to himself, maybe 546 00:33:04,360 --> 00:33:08,320 Speaker 1: because of his beliefs about AI safety. Even though Sam 547 00:33:08,400 --> 00:33:12,800 Speaker 1: was back as CEO, some serious rifts remained within open AI. 548 00:33:13,680 --> 00:33:18,120 Speaker 1: After Ilia's departure was announced. His team fell apart. It 549 00:33:18,160 --> 00:33:21,920 Speaker 1: had been the team focused on preventing disaster scenarios from AI. 550 00:33:23,120 --> 00:33:26,120 Speaker 1: And what about Helen Toner, the board member who Sam 551 00:33:26,200 --> 00:33:29,640 Speaker 1: tried to oust her paper helped kick off all of this. 552 00:33:30,680 --> 00:33:33,479 Speaker 1: While since the coup, Helen has faced a lot of 553 00:33:33,600 --> 00:33:37,840 Speaker 1: online trolling. People treated her like the villain in this saga. 554 00:33:38,640 --> 00:33:43,920 Speaker 1: AI devotees castigated her as a decelerationist, someone who wants 555 00:33:43,960 --> 00:33:48,560 Speaker 1: to slow down the advancement of AI. Martin Screlly called 556 00:33:48,680 --> 00:33:52,240 Speaker 1: her and the other board members quote the most disgusting 557 00:33:52,280 --> 00:33:55,640 Speaker 1: group of people who ever lived, which is funny because 558 00:33:55,840 --> 00:33:59,720 Speaker 1: Martin Schrelly is commonly called the most hated man in America. 559 00:34:01,040 --> 00:34:03,840 Speaker 1: I feel some sympathy For Helen, I think she may 560 00:34:03,840 --> 00:34:07,000 Speaker 1: have seen herself as doing her job, first as an 561 00:34:07,040 --> 00:34:10,320 Speaker 1: academic in writing her paper, and then as a board 562 00:34:10,360 --> 00:34:15,760 Speaker 1: member in pushing back against a brazen CEO. For several months, 563 00:34:15,960 --> 00:34:19,879 Speaker 1: Helen was largely silent about the whole ordeal until May 564 00:34:19,960 --> 00:34:22,840 Speaker 1: twenty twenty four, when she gave the interview to the 565 00:34:22,880 --> 00:34:27,200 Speaker 1: ted Ai Show. She sounds incredibly candid and confident in 566 00:34:27,239 --> 00:34:28,600 Speaker 1: her criticisms of Sam. 567 00:34:29,000 --> 00:34:31,680 Speaker 2: I think it's really important to know that has really 568 00:34:31,719 --> 00:34:36,440 Speaker 2: gone under reported is how scared people are to go 569 00:34:36,520 --> 00:34:41,360 Speaker 2: against Sam. They had experienced him retaliating against people retaliating 570 00:34:41,360 --> 00:34:45,160 Speaker 2: against them for past instances of being critical. They were 571 00:34:45,160 --> 00:34:47,560 Speaker 2: really afraid of what might happen to them. So it 572 00:34:47,640 --> 00:34:50,400 Speaker 2: was very hard for those people who had had terrible 573 00:34:50,400 --> 00:34:55,120 Speaker 2: experiences to actually say that for fear that, you know, 574 00:34:55,440 --> 00:34:57,959 Speaker 2: if Sam did stay in power as he ultimately did, 575 00:34:58,560 --> 00:35:00,719 Speaker 2: you know, that would make their lives miserable. 576 00:35:01,600 --> 00:35:05,719 Speaker 1: Meanwhile, Sam almost immediately picked up where he left off. 577 00:35:06,280 --> 00:35:10,520 Speaker 1: He started doing press appearances again. He spoke at Davos 578 00:35:10,640 --> 00:35:14,520 Speaker 1: in January, just a couple months after the saga. My 579 00:35:14,640 --> 00:35:18,680 Speaker 1: colleague Bradstone asks him the question that's on everyone's minds 580 00:35:19,000 --> 00:35:19,560 Speaker 1: I sort. 581 00:35:19,360 --> 00:35:21,640 Speaker 11: Of smiled because you came to the Bloomberg Tech conference 582 00:35:22,080 --> 00:35:26,200 Speaker 11: in last June and Emily Chang asked it was something 583 00:35:26,560 --> 00:35:28,759 Speaker 11: along along the lines of why should we trust you, 584 00:35:28,800 --> 00:35:31,440 Speaker 11: and you very candidly says you shouldn't, and you said 585 00:35:31,480 --> 00:35:34,000 Speaker 11: the board should be able to fire me if they want, 586 00:35:34,200 --> 00:35:38,680 Speaker 11: and of course then they did, and you quite depthtely 587 00:35:38,760 --> 00:35:39,760 Speaker 11: orchestrated your return. 588 00:35:39,840 --> 00:35:42,960 Speaker 8: Actually, let me tell you something I the board did that. 589 00:35:43,040 --> 00:35:47,160 Speaker 8: I was like, I think this is wild, super confused, 590 00:35:47,200 --> 00:35:49,319 Speaker 8: super caught off guard, but this is the structure. And 591 00:35:49,400 --> 00:35:51,520 Speaker 8: I immediately just went to go thinking about what I 592 00:35:51,560 --> 00:35:53,520 Speaker 8: was going to do next. It was not until some 593 00:35:53,560 --> 00:35:55,960 Speaker 8: board members called me the next morning that I even 594 00:35:56,000 --> 00:35:59,800 Speaker 8: thought about really coming back. When they asked you to 595 00:36:00,120 --> 00:36:02,880 Speaker 8: come back, I want to talk about that, but like 596 00:36:03,719 --> 00:36:05,800 Speaker 8: the board did have all of the power there, No, 597 00:36:07,080 --> 00:36:08,719 Speaker 8: you know what, I'm not going to say that next thing. 598 00:36:10,200 --> 00:36:11,920 Speaker 6: I think you should continue. 599 00:36:14,200 --> 00:36:18,480 Speaker 1: The audience laughs when Brad reminds Sam that he had 600 00:36:18,520 --> 00:36:21,399 Speaker 1: said the board should be able to fire him right 601 00:36:21,480 --> 00:36:26,520 Speaker 1: before he was fired, and Sam notably did not laugh. 602 00:36:27,080 --> 00:36:31,120 Speaker 1: He didn't even crack a smile. He responds that the 603 00:36:31,160 --> 00:36:33,960 Speaker 1: board wanted to bring him back on they had all 604 00:36:33,960 --> 00:36:37,640 Speaker 1: the power there, not him, And then a third person 605 00:36:37,680 --> 00:36:41,480 Speaker 1: on the panel, Anna Macanju, who's an executive at open Ai, 606 00:36:42,120 --> 00:36:42,560 Speaker 1: jumps in. 607 00:36:42,960 --> 00:36:44,560 Speaker 10: I would also just say that I think that there's 608 00:36:44,600 --> 00:36:46,279 Speaker 10: a lot of narratives out there. It's like, oh, well, 609 00:36:46,320 --> 00:36:48,879 Speaker 10: this was orchestrated by all these these other forces. It's 610 00:36:48,920 --> 00:36:51,439 Speaker 10: not accurates. I mean, it was the employees of open 611 00:36:51,480 --> 00:36:55,239 Speaker 10: Ai that wanted this, and that thought was the right 612 00:36:55,280 --> 00:36:57,239 Speaker 10: thing for Sam to be back, you. 613 00:36:57,200 --> 00:36:59,759 Speaker 8: Know, like, yeah, I think I'll say is I think 614 00:36:59,800 --> 00:37:03,719 Speaker 8: it's important that I have an entity that like canfire this, 615 00:37:03,840 --> 00:37:05,960 Speaker 8: but that entity has got to have some accountability too, 616 00:37:06,920 --> 00:37:10,240 Speaker 8: and that is a clear issue with what happened. 617 00:37:10,560 --> 00:37:10,919 Speaker 10: Of course. 618 00:37:10,960 --> 00:37:14,920 Speaker 1: Okay, so Sam is saying his usual talking point that 619 00:37:15,000 --> 00:37:18,600 Speaker 1: it's important that he can get fired, but he's adding 620 00:37:18,640 --> 00:37:22,240 Speaker 1: a big caveat that the board needs to do things 621 00:37:22,280 --> 00:37:26,080 Speaker 1: in the right way, and in this case they didn't. 622 00:37:26,480 --> 00:37:31,880 Speaker 1: He's criticizing the board. Reid Hoffman agrees with Sam that 623 00:37:32,000 --> 00:37:35,640 Speaker 1: the board was to blame for the whole fiasco. Reed 624 00:37:35,760 --> 00:37:38,600 Speaker 1: had actually been on the board of open Ai for years, 625 00:37:39,040 --> 00:37:42,480 Speaker 1: but left in early twenty twenty three, just months before 626 00:37:42,480 --> 00:37:42,920 Speaker 1: the coup. 627 00:37:43,400 --> 00:37:50,520 Speaker 6: Well, when you look at the four board members who 628 00:37:50,560 --> 00:37:56,440 Speaker 6: got together and fired Sam. Three of them had never 629 00:37:56,480 --> 00:37:59,000 Speaker 6: really had experience in other boards and understand kind of 630 00:37:59,000 --> 00:38:03,319 Speaker 6: board governance. They had so little experience that there were 631 00:38:03,360 --> 00:38:06,320 Speaker 6: six board members. They didn't invite the fifth, Greg Brockman, 632 00:38:06,400 --> 00:38:10,480 Speaker 6: because they presumably knew that he would disagree with them. 633 00:38:10,680 --> 00:38:13,680 Speaker 6: And you think, well, basic board competence is you don't 634 00:38:13,719 --> 00:38:16,239 Speaker 6: disinvite the board members who you can disagree with. You 635 00:38:16,239 --> 00:38:18,799 Speaker 6: want to hear the disagreement, you want to talk about it. 636 00:38:19,200 --> 00:38:23,120 Speaker 1: So he's dismissing them as a bunch of amateurs, which 637 00:38:23,239 --> 00:38:26,520 Speaker 1: isn't entirely true because a few of the board members 638 00:38:26,640 --> 00:38:30,520 Speaker 1: have served on other boards as well. We asked Reid 639 00:38:30,560 --> 00:38:33,200 Speaker 1: to clarify, and he said they hadn't been on the 640 00:38:33,200 --> 00:38:37,160 Speaker 1: boards of fast growing tech companies. I can kind of 641 00:38:37,200 --> 00:38:40,399 Speaker 1: see where Reid and Sam are coming from. I'm sure 642 00:38:40,440 --> 00:38:45,200 Speaker 1: they really believe the board acted inappropriately, but I also 643 00:38:45,239 --> 00:38:48,440 Speaker 1: can't help but see it as someone saying, we have 644 00:38:48,560 --> 00:38:51,560 Speaker 1: designed a system where I am accountable to you, you 645 00:38:51,640 --> 00:38:57,160 Speaker 1: should hold me accountable. Then when it actually happens, they're shouting, no, wait, 646 00:38:57,239 --> 00:38:58,200 Speaker 1: I didn't mean it like that. 647 00:38:59,160 --> 00:39:01,279 Speaker 3: It all sounds and nice to say We're going to 648 00:39:01,320 --> 00:39:04,480 Speaker 3: have this benevolent company that's kind of a nonprofit and 649 00:39:04,560 --> 00:39:07,040 Speaker 3: kind of not and as his board that can fire 650 00:39:07,120 --> 00:39:09,719 Speaker 3: at CEO at any time. And then in practice that 651 00:39:09,800 --> 00:39:13,360 Speaker 3: turned out to be a lot less friendly than it 652 00:39:13,400 --> 00:39:14,680 Speaker 3: may be sounded initially. 653 00:39:15,440 --> 00:39:18,960 Speaker 1: Okay, So I've spent a lot of time talking about Sam, 654 00:39:19,480 --> 00:39:22,320 Speaker 1: what shaped him when he was young, how he speaks 655 00:39:22,400 --> 00:39:26,040 Speaker 1: in public, how he acts in private, and over the 656 00:39:26,080 --> 00:39:28,560 Speaker 1: course of the months I spent working on this podcast, 657 00:39:29,120 --> 00:39:31,759 Speaker 1: I've observed one thing that I think is key to 658 00:39:31,920 --> 00:39:37,600 Speaker 1: understanding Sam. Sam is slippery, especially when it comes to 659 00:39:37,640 --> 00:39:40,719 Speaker 1: his words. I think it's fair to say that when 660 00:39:40,719 --> 00:39:44,320 Speaker 1: he says something, you cannot be sure that he actually 661 00:39:44,360 --> 00:39:49,640 Speaker 1: means it. An obvious example him saying he should be fired. 662 00:39:50,280 --> 00:39:54,560 Speaker 1: He made it sound so clear, so obvious, no caveats. 663 00:39:54,920 --> 00:39:58,120 Speaker 1: Then he got fired, and all of a sudden, that 664 00:39:58,320 --> 00:40:03,680 Speaker 1: promise doesn't apply. Here's another example. Sam loves to boast 665 00:40:03,760 --> 00:40:07,440 Speaker 1: about how transparent he is. Here he is last summer 666 00:40:07,600 --> 00:40:11,000 Speaker 1: talking at a Bloomberg conference. This was in the middle 667 00:40:11,040 --> 00:40:13,040 Speaker 1: of his big press tour of twenty twenty three. 668 00:40:13,480 --> 00:40:16,520 Speaker 8: You know me, for a long time public talking, I'd 669 00:40:16,560 --> 00:40:19,480 Speaker 8: rather be in the office working but I think at 670 00:40:19,480 --> 00:40:22,919 Speaker 8: this moment in time, like people deserve basically as much 671 00:40:22,920 --> 00:40:25,520 Speaker 8: time asking questions as they want, and I'm trying to 672 00:40:25,520 --> 00:40:26,480 Speaker 8: show up and do it. 673 00:40:26,520 --> 00:40:30,000 Speaker 1: But people deserve as much time asking questions as they want. 674 00:40:30,120 --> 00:40:35,440 Speaker 1: Like Sam is actually framing his transparency as a moral imperative, 675 00:40:36,040 --> 00:40:38,879 Speaker 1: not just something he likes, but something he should do, 676 00:40:39,280 --> 00:40:43,560 Speaker 1: given how pivotal AI could be. It's reassuring to hear 677 00:40:43,640 --> 00:40:47,680 Speaker 1: him welcome questions and the way he says he'd rather 678 00:40:47,760 --> 00:40:50,719 Speaker 1: be working than be in an interview. It has this 679 00:40:50,800 --> 00:40:54,400 Speaker 1: kind of humble, awe shucks energy to it. He says 680 00:40:54,560 --> 00:40:57,759 Speaker 1: he doesn't like being on stage. He says he's sort 681 00:40:57,760 --> 00:41:01,840 Speaker 1: of a shy person. I'm sure some of it is earnest, 682 00:41:02,560 --> 00:41:06,120 Speaker 1: but he's smart enough to know. It also bolsters his image, 683 00:41:06,480 --> 00:41:09,560 Speaker 1: makes him non threatening. It reminds me of the way 684 00:41:09,600 --> 00:41:13,000 Speaker 1: he always writes his tweets in all lowercase, so friendly. 685 00:41:14,120 --> 00:41:18,239 Speaker 1: Last year, Sam said it would be super unreasonable not 686 00:41:18,360 --> 00:41:22,280 Speaker 1: to answer questions. He also said that he and open 687 00:41:22,280 --> 00:41:27,560 Speaker 1: AI deserve great scrutiny right now. But in more recent interviews, 688 00:41:28,040 --> 00:41:31,800 Speaker 1: Sam seems to have changed his tune. Instead of answering 689 00:41:31,800 --> 00:41:36,520 Speaker 1: those questions about Ilia's whereabouts he deflected, and again in 690 00:41:36,560 --> 00:41:40,160 Speaker 1: that conversation at Davos, when Brad asked a question about 691 00:41:40,160 --> 00:41:44,640 Speaker 1: Sam's firing to the co panelist Ata Maconju, Sam jumped 692 00:41:44,640 --> 00:41:45,759 Speaker 1: in and blocked it. 693 00:41:46,360 --> 00:41:49,920 Speaker 14: Anna, you wrote a remarkable letter to employees during the saga, 694 00:41:50,000 --> 00:41:52,680 Speaker 14: and one of the many reasons I was excited to 695 00:41:52,760 --> 00:41:55,680 Speaker 14: have you on stage today was to just ask you, 696 00:41:55,920 --> 00:41:58,160 Speaker 14: what were those five days like for you? 697 00:41:58,239 --> 00:41:59,839 Speaker 11: And why did you step up and write that. 698 00:42:00,120 --> 00:42:03,560 Speaker 8: Ana can clearly answer this if she wants to, But like, 699 00:42:03,920 --> 00:42:05,520 Speaker 8: is really what you want to spend our time on, 700 00:42:05,640 --> 00:42:07,960 Speaker 8: like the soap opera rather than like what Ahi is 701 00:42:08,000 --> 00:42:08,319 Speaker 8: going to do? 702 00:42:08,360 --> 00:42:11,759 Speaker 14: I mean, I'm wrapping it up, but I mean I 703 00:42:11,800 --> 00:42:12,760 Speaker 14: think people are interested. 704 00:42:13,120 --> 00:42:15,400 Speaker 11: Well, we can leave it here if you want to, Yea, 705 00:42:15,760 --> 00:42:18,360 Speaker 11: let's answer that question to talk about we can move on. 706 00:42:19,200 --> 00:42:21,960 Speaker 10: I would just say, for color that it happened the 707 00:42:22,040 --> 00:42:24,040 Speaker 10: day before the entire company was supposed to take a 708 00:42:24,040 --> 00:42:25,800 Speaker 10: week off, so Friday. 709 00:42:27,000 --> 00:42:29,480 Speaker 1: That comment, do you really want to talk about this 710 00:42:29,520 --> 00:42:33,520 Speaker 1: soap opera? Is a perfect example of Sam's habit of 711 00:42:33,640 --> 00:42:37,520 Speaker 1: grabbing control of a conversation when he's asked a question 712 00:42:37,600 --> 00:42:40,799 Speaker 1: he doesn't like or doesn't want to answer. He not 713 00:42:40,840 --> 00:42:44,279 Speaker 1: only skates past it, he flips it back on the 714 00:42:44,280 --> 00:42:49,640 Speaker 1: interviewer and chastises them for asking Sam is a scold. 715 00:42:50,840 --> 00:42:54,839 Speaker 1: I've noticed that he uses this tactic, especially when journalists 716 00:42:54,920 --> 00:43:00,480 Speaker 1: start asking him about interpersonal drama, messiness, instances where he 717 00:43:00,560 --> 00:43:03,680 Speaker 1: might come out looking bad. He did a similar thing 718 00:43:03,719 --> 00:43:07,600 Speaker 1: at a Bloomberg conference last year by colleague Emily Chang 719 00:43:07,800 --> 00:43:11,040 Speaker 1: asks him about Elon Musk, who has been bad mouthing 720 00:43:11,120 --> 00:43:14,160 Speaker 1: Sam and open AI, complaining that they are no longer 721 00:43:14,280 --> 00:43:15,480 Speaker 1: open now. 722 00:43:15,520 --> 00:43:17,960 Speaker 9: Obviously we've seen all the barbs that you and Elon 723 00:43:18,000 --> 00:43:21,080 Speaker 9: have been trading in public and in interviews, writing I 724 00:43:21,080 --> 00:43:24,520 Speaker 9: don't really well you're responding. You respond, you get asked 725 00:43:24,520 --> 00:43:25,560 Speaker 9: about it by people. 726 00:43:25,360 --> 00:43:27,480 Speaker 8: Like me, to be mostly people like you to be honest. 727 00:43:27,680 --> 00:43:29,440 Speaker 8: Most other people ask about the technology. 728 00:43:29,440 --> 00:43:30,080 Speaker 14: But that is. 729 00:43:30,040 --> 00:43:35,080 Speaker 1: True, most other people ask about the technology frustrated ouch. 730 00:43:36,880 --> 00:43:40,719 Speaker 1: His implicit message is pretty clear to me. It's virtuous 731 00:43:40,800 --> 00:43:43,560 Speaker 1: and high minded to want to talk about the technology, 732 00:43:43,760 --> 00:43:48,320 Speaker 1: the science. It's petty to ask about his relationship with Elon. 733 00:43:49,440 --> 00:43:52,520 Speaker 1: When Emily presses, he doubles down, like, I really. 734 00:43:52,320 --> 00:43:53,640 Speaker 8: Am happy to talk about this, that this is the 735 00:43:53,640 --> 00:43:55,480 Speaker 8: most important topic we can spend the rest of the 736 00:43:55,480 --> 00:43:55,960 Speaker 8: time on it. 737 00:43:56,920 --> 00:43:58,319 Speaker 1: I think the rest of the. 738 00:43:58,280 --> 00:43:58,799 Speaker 4: Time just some. 739 00:44:00,440 --> 00:44:03,400 Speaker 1: In a taped interview ahead of this on stage conversation, 740 00:44:04,080 --> 00:44:07,719 Speaker 1: when Emily asked him a similar question about Elon, he 741 00:44:07,840 --> 00:44:09,240 Speaker 1: dismissed her in the same way. 742 00:44:09,800 --> 00:44:11,600 Speaker 8: I don't think this is in the top one hundred 743 00:44:11,680 --> 00:44:14,960 Speaker 8: most important things happening related to AI right now, for what. 744 00:44:14,920 --> 00:44:18,840 Speaker 1: It's worth it to me, it sounds like Sam means 745 00:44:19,080 --> 00:44:23,160 Speaker 1: he should only answer the questions he deems worthwhile, and 746 00:44:23,200 --> 00:44:28,560 Speaker 1: he dismisses questions by implying they're the wrong ones, unimportant questions, 747 00:44:28,840 --> 00:44:33,879 Speaker 1: not worth his time. The board fired Sam for being 748 00:44:34,120 --> 00:44:38,200 Speaker 1: not consistently candid, and while we may never know exactly 749 00:44:38,280 --> 00:44:41,960 Speaker 1: what they were referring to, we've seen many other instances 750 00:44:42,000 --> 00:44:46,360 Speaker 1: when Sam's actions didn't live up to his words. Sam 751 00:44:46,400 --> 00:44:50,960 Speaker 1: promised transparency, he promised that he could get fired. He's 752 00:44:51,000 --> 00:44:54,320 Speaker 1: walked both of those back. He talked a big game 753 00:44:54,440 --> 00:44:57,600 Speaker 1: about how poverty shouldn't exist and how we should give 754 00:44:57,680 --> 00:45:01,920 Speaker 1: money to everyone without conditions, but he set conditions on 755 00:45:02,040 --> 00:45:07,440 Speaker 1: financial help to his sister. Even the actress Scarlet Johanson 756 00:45:07,600 --> 00:45:11,840 Speaker 1: has complained about Sam's duplicity. She said that in twenty 757 00:45:11,880 --> 00:45:15,040 Speaker 1: twenty three, Sam asked her to lend her voice to 758 00:45:15,120 --> 00:45:19,320 Speaker 1: chat GPT. She said no, and then when an ai 759 00:45:19,440 --> 00:45:22,520 Speaker 1: voice was released, it sounded so much like her that 760 00:45:22,600 --> 00:45:26,840 Speaker 1: it confused even her family and close friends. Some of 761 00:45:26,960 --> 00:45:31,680 Speaker 1: open AI's promises have also eroded. Open ai started as 762 00:45:31,719 --> 00:45:36,640 Speaker 1: a nonprofit, but many critics, most loudly elon Musk, say 763 00:45:36,760 --> 00:45:41,320 Speaker 1: they're not anymore. Not really. The nonprofit board was supposed 764 00:45:41,360 --> 00:45:45,040 Speaker 1: to have power over Sam, power to even dissolve open 765 00:45:45,040 --> 00:45:47,680 Speaker 1: ai if they thought it was in line with the mission. 766 00:45:48,520 --> 00:45:51,960 Speaker 1: Those board members tried to exercise their power, and as 767 00:45:52,000 --> 00:45:58,040 Speaker 1: a result, they were removed. This pattern matters because Sam 768 00:45:58,120 --> 00:46:01,960 Speaker 1: and open ai are making more and more promises with 769 00:46:02,080 --> 00:46:06,080 Speaker 1: bigger and bigger consequences and asking us to take their 770 00:46:06,120 --> 00:46:12,080 Speaker 1: word for it. Meanwhile, Sam's ambition keeps growing. He once 771 00:46:12,160 --> 00:46:16,399 Speaker 1: considered running for governor of California. In addition to sitting 772 00:46:16,480 --> 00:46:20,360 Speaker 1: at the top of open ai, he's overseeing other projects 773 00:46:20,360 --> 00:46:24,160 Speaker 1: that connect to and support open ai, like a sam 774 00:46:24,200 --> 00:46:29,879 Speaker 1: Altman ecosystem. He has his universal basic income research in 775 00:46:29,880 --> 00:46:33,359 Speaker 1: case AI puts us out of work. He has world coin, 776 00:46:33,800 --> 00:46:37,440 Speaker 1: the crypto project that scans eyeballs in order to distribute 777 00:46:37,440 --> 00:46:41,239 Speaker 1: that income. He has a nuclear fusion company that will 778 00:46:41,239 --> 00:46:45,440 Speaker 1: create enough energy for AI. He's trying to raise enormous 779 00:46:45,440 --> 00:46:49,240 Speaker 1: sums of money to make chips that power AI. Someone 780 00:46:49,239 --> 00:46:52,759 Speaker 1: who knows Sam told me he wants to be world emperor. 781 00:46:53,320 --> 00:46:56,880 Speaker 1: The goal is to take over the world. Paul Graham, 782 00:46:57,000 --> 00:47:00,840 Speaker 1: Sam's former mentor, told a reporter, I think his goal 783 00:47:01,200 --> 00:47:10,920 Speaker 1: is to make the whole future. Foundering is hosted by 784 00:47:11,000 --> 00:47:16,280 Speaker 1: me Ellen Hewitt. Sean Wen is our executive producer. Rachel 785 00:47:16,320 --> 00:47:20,759 Speaker 1: Metz and Sharene Gaffari contributed reporting to this episode. Molly 786 00:47:20,840 --> 00:47:25,120 Speaker 1: Nugent is our associate producer. Blake Maples is our audio engineer. 787 00:47:25,640 --> 00:47:30,160 Speaker 1: Mark Million and Vandermy Seth Fiegerman, Tom Giles and Molly 788 00:47:30,239 --> 00:47:33,640 Speaker 1: Schutz are our story editors. We had production help from 789 00:47:33,719 --> 00:47:38,279 Speaker 1: Jessica Nix and Antonio muffaretch Thanks for listening. If you 790 00:47:38,400 --> 00:47:41,919 Speaker 1: like our show, leave a review, and most importantly, tell 791 00:47:41,960 --> 00:47:43,840 Speaker 1: your friends. See you next time.