Speaker 1: Stress is the difference between the things on your to
Speaker 1: do list and your capacity to handle that to do list.
Speaker 1: Anxiety is fretfully projecting and fearing that bad things are
Speaker 1: going to happen. Both things are probably at the worst
Speaker 1: point they've ever been since we started keeping those records.
Speaker 2: I'm our ABC News anchor, author of ten Percent Happier.
Speaker 3: Mister Dan Harris.
Speaker 1: People who live the longest, have strong relationships. Dose yourself
Speaker 1: with some discomfort, go to that party. Accept the invitation.
Speaker 3: The Number one Health and Well Inness Podcast.
Speaker 2: Jay Shetty, Jay Sheddy See One Only Ja Shetty, Dan Harris,
Speaker 2: Welcome to On Purpose. It's so great to finally have
Speaker 2: you here. I feel like this has been years in
Speaker 2: the making. I know my audience has wanted to hear
Speaker 2: from you, my community has asked for us to get together.
Speaker 2: I've seen so many comments tagging you saying you have
Speaker 2: to have done on the show, and so this is
Speaker 2: really exciting for me and I want to thank you
Speaker 2: for taking out the time and and being here with us.
Speaker 3: Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1: It's a little embarrassing because they might have tagged me
Speaker 1: in the comments, but I wouldn't have seen it because
Speaker 1: I wasn't on social media until a few months ago,
Speaker 1: and well I had an Instagram, but I didn't really
Speaker 1: post to it much. And so about six months ago
Speaker 1: I started putting some videos up and I was looking
Speaker 1: at it one day and I saw that I had
Speaker 1: a message from you, but it was from twenty twenty. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so I answered it, And that's why we're.
Speaker 2: Here, absolutely, and I love it. Yeah, I reached out. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I'm glad, glad you're Yeah, I reached out twenty twenty
Speaker 2: and who's probably aware of your work even before that.
Speaker 2: And I feel like there's so many similarities and differences
Speaker 2: that we can explore today in our personal journeys. But
Speaker 2: let's dive straight in. I think I'm at this point
Speaker 2: in time. It feels like we've talked about this topic
Speaker 2: for a long time, but it still feels like we
Speaker 2: have a slightly unhealthy relationship with it and somewhat a
Speaker 2: subconscious relationship with it. And I'm talking about stress, and
Speaker 2: it seems that YEurope on your people's stress increases, people's
Speaker 2: variety of causes of stress increase. Even after the pandemic,
Speaker 2: we saw a different type of stress that we experienced.
Speaker 2: I wanted to get your thesis on how you feel
Speaker 2: about the state of stress at the moment.
Speaker 1: It's not good. I recently learned this is embarrassing that
Speaker 1: I recently learned this. The difference, the specific difference between
Speaker 1: stress and anxiety. Hopefully I don't mangle this, but it's
Speaker 1: something like stress is the difference between the things on
Speaker 1: your to do list and your capacity to handle that
Speaker 1: to do list, the difference between the demands on you
Speaker 1: and your ability to meet those demands. And anxiety is
Speaker 1: a little bit more fretfully projecting forward into the future
Speaker 1: and fearing that bad things are going to happen. And
Speaker 1: so I think actually both things are probably at the
Speaker 1: worst point they've ever been since we started keeping those records.
Speaker 1: So from what I can take, anxiety, depression, suicide, addiction,
Speaker 1: and loneliness are, according to the numbers I've seen, at
Speaker 1: unprecedented levels. Now, we haven't been keeping these statistics for
Speaker 1: that long, so I suspect when we were on the
Speaker 1: edge of World War two, things were worse. But in
Speaker 1: the modern era, things have not been worse from what
Speaker 1: we can tell, and I think a huge contributor to
Speaker 1: that is the pandemic that we just lived through I
Speaker 1: sometimes describe it as a global, unregulated experiment into what
Speaker 1: would happen when you deny people social connection and put
Speaker 1: people in a state of deep uncertainty about the future.
Speaker 1: And add into that political polarization the noxious impacts of
Speaker 1: social media, which we were just talking about, war, climate change,
Speaker 1: and you have a very tough situation for individual minds.
Speaker 2: Which one's been the one that you feel you've heard
Speaker 2: about the most from the people that follow your podcasts,
Speaker 2: that have read your books, Like, what's the stress that
Speaker 2: you think is weighing them down the most.
Speaker 1: I'm projecting a little bit here and guessing, but I
Speaker 1: sometimes think there's a difference between what people perceive to
Speaker 1: be the source of their stress or anxiety and what
Speaker 1: actually is driving it. So we might fasten on to
Speaker 1: things that are real for sure. I mean like work
Speaker 1: stress economics, So there can be stress about the state
Speaker 1: of your job, and then economic stress about the larger
Speaker 1: state of the economy. There's increasing stress around inequality and bigotry,
Speaker 1: increasing awareness of it. So the question is are those
Speaker 1: the approximate causes for your stress or could there be
Speaker 1: subterranean contributors that you might not be aware of? So
Speaker 1: I think today's media environment, particularly social media, and I'm
Speaker 1: not anti social media.
Speaker 3: We just talked about the fact that I recently went.
Speaker 1: On it, but I think there are aspects of social
Speaker 1: media we need to be aware of, and too much
Speaker 1: comparing yourself to other people is as you've talked about,
Speaker 1: the source, it's a really good source of unhappiness and stress.
Speaker 1: I think also, if you're spending too much time staring
Speaker 1: at a screen, two things going to happen. One, you
Speaker 1: can get a distorted view of the state of the
Speaker 1: world because the algorithms feed off of conflict and anger
Speaker 1: and outrage. They feed our anxiety. And then the other
Speaker 1: thing is the more you're staring at the screen, the
Speaker 1: less time you're spending connecting to actual human beings. So
Speaker 1: I think this is the deepest contributor we are, and
Speaker 1: this is to state the obvious social animals. You hear
Speaker 1: this in every Ted talk. I think I said it
Speaker 1: in my own Ted talk. So I'm like, deeply unoriginal here.
Speaker 1: We are social animals. We're designed to interact with other
Speaker 1: human beings, and yet everything about modern life militates against
Speaker 1: this basic obvious fact. Everything drives us into our own
Speaker 1: information silos, into curating our own resumes and working on
Speaker 1: our own little homes and all that can be beautiful,
Speaker 1: but when you overlook what we need, that is going
Speaker 1: to create stress and anxiety. And you might think it
Speaker 1: is observable things out in the world, and it probably
Speaker 1: is those things too, But I just wonder from many
Speaker 1: people whether it's this deeper contributor that they're not looking at.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm so glad you've just made some two really
Speaker 2: good distinctions there. I love the way you are sharing
Speaker 2: the research around the difference between anxiety and stress, and
Speaker 2: going back to that for a second, that example you
Speaker 2: gave of having your to do list and feeling like
Speaker 2: you don't have the capacity, It sounds like what you're
Speaker 2: sharing is that there's a capacity challenge and then also
Speaker 2: a control challenge, and when you're naming all those things
Speaker 2: external to us, there's a feeling of I can't control
Speaker 2: any of those things. All of those things are uncertain,
Speaker 2: and thereforem dealing with constant states of change, and that
Speaker 2: in effect creates a sense of stress and to some degree,
Speaker 2: if I'm forward projecting, then anxiety as well. When I
Speaker 2: think about that, and I love what you just said
Speaker 2: about actually getting to the root of it, because I
Speaker 2: think you're spot on that we often discover a new symptom,
Speaker 2: and there will always be a new thing we'll discover
Speaker 2: every day that causes or triggers stress, because there'll be
Speaker 2: a new change, a new uncertainty, and a new thing
Speaker 2: we can't control. But at the core of it, you've
Speaker 2: highlighted this need for connection and this need for belonging,
Speaker 2: and this need for human touch, both physical and mental
Speaker 2: and emotional, that we seem to be feeling further and
Speaker 2: further away from. I was talking about this with my
Speaker 2: best friend today, who I speak to probably like three
Speaker 2: or four times a week, and it's the person I
Speaker 2: probably speak to the most in the entire world. And
Speaker 2: he was my best man at my wedding. He introduced
Speaker 2: me to spirituality, so we have a long history of
Speaker 2: eighteen years of a friendship. So he knows me very
Speaker 2: well and we still talk three or four times a week.
Speaker 2: He lives in London, I live in la and we
Speaker 2: still find the time to connect, and that's mainly because
Speaker 2: he always makes time and he's very kind. And I
Speaker 2: often think about it in that I don't know how
Speaker 2: I would navigate life without that friendship because of having
Speaker 2: someone who understands me deeply, someone who allows me to
Speaker 2: be seen, someone who allows me to be flawed and
Speaker 2: imperfect yet allows me to process. All of that is
Speaker 2: so profoundly needed, but it required certain deposits that had
Speaker 2: to happen eighteen years ago in order to get there.
Speaker 2: Do you find human connection is easier with people you've
Speaker 2: known for a long time, or have you found it
Speaker 2: to be building new relationships and new friendships? What have
Speaker 2: been the pros and cons of the ways you've navigated
Speaker 2: both of those.
Speaker 1: One of the things that I really try to do
Speaker 1: in my work is move away from abstractions or cliches
Speaker 1: or big ideas and get really practical about how you
Speaker 1: can actually act on these things. Because it's easy to
Speaker 1: scroll on Instagram or read a book or hear a
Speaker 1: Ted talk and you hear the these inspirational notions like
Speaker 1: we're built for connection and we need belonging and you
Speaker 1: need to invest in relationships, and then what do you
Speaker 1: do about it? And so I think about that a lot,
Speaker 1: and I think you just gave us an example. You
Speaker 1: made a deep friendship eighteen years ago. But it's not
Speaker 1: enough to just have a connection with somebody, you need
Speaker 1: to invest in it over and over and over again.
Speaker 1: That's true for any level of deep relationship. It's true,
Speaker 1: I would imagine with your wife. It's I mean, you've
Speaker 1: written a whole book about this, So I'm not talking
Speaker 1: to you like you don't know what you're talking about.
Speaker 1: But I just think you're giving a great, concrete example
Speaker 1: of one little thing you can do, which is figure
Speaker 1: out who you like and then make an investment in
Speaker 1: that person and hopefully a few other people consistently over time,
Speaker 1: because the rewards are huge and this isn't just like
Speaker 1: a nice to have. I know you're familiar with this research,
Speaker 1: but the study that comes up for me all the
Speaker 1: time is this study that was done that's still ongoing
Speaker 1: at Harvard University. It's overseen now by Robert Waldinger, and
Speaker 1: the idea is that they've been following several generations of
Speaker 1: people who live in the Boston area to see what
Speaker 1: contributes to a long life, a longevity, health, happiness. And
Speaker 1: what comes screaming out of eighty ninety years of data
Speaker 1: is that the people who live the longest have strong relationships,
Speaker 1: and what's the mechanism for that stress is what kills us.
Speaker 1: You started this whole conversation with the idea of stress.
Speaker 1: Stress is what kills us most of the time, and
Speaker 1: the best way to reduce stress is to have positive relationships.
Speaker 1: Waldinger has this great expression, never worry alone. And that's
Speaker 1: what you were doing three times a week with your buddy.
Speaker 1: And there are obviously things you can talk to your
Speaker 1: wife about, of course, but the whole and again, again,
Speaker 1: you know all of this, but can't You can't your
Speaker 1: wife can't be the alpha and Omega, your wife can't
Speaker 1: be everything to you. And again there's data to support
Speaker 1: this contention too that the strongest marriages or romantic relationships,
Speaker 1: in those relationships, the participants have other relationships that support it.
Speaker 1: You know that you're getting certain needs filled through your
Speaker 1: best friend. And yeah, so I just go back to
Speaker 1: what you said that that seems to be a direction
Speaker 1: that people can move in when they're trying to think
Speaker 1: about how to operationalize this stuff in their own life.
Speaker 2: Yeah no, and I'm glad that you brought it to
Speaker 2: this And I genuinely couldn't agree with you more. And
Speaker 2: that's why I've always wanted to talk to you. Is
Speaker 2: this idea of well, how do we actually do that?
Speaker 2: Because these big ideas and big concepts often, as you said,
Speaker 2: I give you that short term inspiration, but then it
Speaker 2: doesn't translate into any discipline or habit or creation of
Speaker 2: a routine or rhythm that allows us to repeat it
Speaker 2: and make it real. And so let's kind of sewn
Speaker 2: in on that for some of the points you made.
Speaker 2: One of the things you talked about, of course, is
Speaker 2: social media, and the truth is that all of us are,
Speaker 2: in some way, shape or form addicted to this. It's
Speaker 2: designed to make us addicted. It's not that we're addicted
Speaker 2: because we have some flaw or some weakness, or because
Speaker 2: we're not, you know, because we're alone. I think a
Speaker 2: lot of us share this. I've found myself doomed scrolling.
Speaker 2: I've found myself wasting hours and hours on social media,
Speaker 2: feeling like I didn't achieve anything or gain anything from it.
Speaker 2: So no one's immune to this. I don't think there's
Speaker 2: a select few people who've beaten it. I think it's
Speaker 2: it's consumed all of us. What have been the practical
Speaker 2: steps that you maybe have put in place for yourself,
Speaker 2: people that you known in your life that you think
Speaker 2: have actually helped people develop a healthy relationship, because I
Speaker 2: think it's also not just like saying, well, just don't
Speaker 2: be on your phone, which is often again one of
Speaker 2: these big ideas that's portrayed, which is like, well just
Speaker 2: turn it off or you know, don't be on it,
Speaker 2: and we know that that's not sustainable either, like we're
Speaker 2: both carrying our phones to this.
Speaker 1: Yes, first of all, you said this thing about how
Speaker 1: you have struggled with social media. I just want to
Speaker 1: add that I have too. I mean I just started,
Speaker 1: as we've discussed, and I can't tell you many times
Speaker 1: I've gotten sucked into either scrolling and looking at things
Speaker 1: that I mean, you know, I could be like talking
Speaker 1: to my child during that time, or and this is
Speaker 1: even more embarrassing, you know, compulsively checking back to see
Speaker 1: how a specific video is performing. And and so yeah,
Speaker 1: I don't come to this conversation with any superiority. I
Speaker 1: also think and I will get to some things that
Speaker 1: have been useful for me. But I also want to
Speaker 1: say that I'm not against social media. I think there
Speaker 1: are beautiful aspects to it. I think they are also
Speaker 1: very difficult aspects, and we can talk about that if
Speaker 1: you want, but it is popular not only for the
Speaker 1: negative aspects for it, and I think it's you know,
Speaker 1: you can get some degree of pleasure through social media,
Speaker 1: for sure. I think it's true just for any dopamine
Speaker 1: hit in our life. You can get addicted to anything
Speaker 1: that is the source of fleeting pleasure, from food to cocaine,
Speaker 1: to alcohol, to gambling to shopping. And there's healthy use,
Speaker 1: healthy involvement in all of these activities, and then unhealthy
Speaker 1: And it really just depends on the circumstances of your
Speaker 1: own brain, your own life, and it's a thing everybody
Speaker 1: has to work on for themselves. As it pertains to
Speaker 1: practical things that work for me with technology addiction. One
Speaker 1: is just being pretty disciplined about putting it away at
Speaker 1: a Usually at the end of the day, I try
Speaker 1: to put it away and have a proper evening with
Speaker 1: my family. Don't always succeed at that, but I notice
Speaker 1: when I do it, I feel better. And that leads
Speaker 1: to the second piece of advice, which is, as you know,
Speaker 1: I'm a big advocate of meditation, as are you, and
Speaker 1: I think the self awareness that can be generated through
Speaker 1: contemplative exercises like meditation can help wake you up to
Speaker 1: the fact that you will feel better if you don't
Speaker 1: get sucked into your phone for you know, prolonged periods
Speaker 1: of time, and that can the brain is always looking
Speaker 1: for pleasure, and if you can show the brain that
Speaker 1: there's what my friend Jeded Brewer calls a bigger, better offer,
Speaker 1: which is that it will feel better to connect to
Speaker 1: your family most of the time, because sometimes our families
Speaker 1: are annoying, But it will feel better to connect to
Speaker 1: other people, to read a book, to take a walk
Speaker 1: in nature. Then it will to you know, attach your
Speaker 1: arm to the iv drip of fomo that that social
Speaker 1: media can be. And so I think meditation is a
Speaker 1: great way to do that. The final thing is see
Speaker 1: if you can ask yourself this question. And I get
Speaker 1: this from a woman named Catherine Price, who wrote a
Speaker 1: book that I recommend called How to Break Up with
Speaker 1: Your Phone. She encourages people to ask themselves to try
Speaker 1: to get in the habit of asking themselves a very
Speaker 1: simple question when they're when they find their zombie arm
Speaker 1: reaching for the phone.
Speaker 3: What do you need right now?
Speaker 2: Like?
Speaker 3: What need are you trying to fulfill when you pick
Speaker 3: up that phone?
Speaker 1: For me, it's often because I'm bored, or I'm in
Speaker 1: an uncomfortable situation, or I'm tired and I don't have
Speaker 1: the wherewithal to do something, or I'm lonely, or I'm hungry.
Speaker 1: And actually, if you run that program, you run that
Speaker 1: algorithm internally for yourself. You know you're only going to
Speaker 1: remember this ten percent of the time. But if you
Speaker 1: can remember to do it some percentage of the time
Speaker 1: and ask yourself, what is it that I'm actually going
Speaker 1: for here, you might realize, actually the phone is not
Speaker 1: what I need right now. And for me, I found
Speaker 1: that really helpful. It doesn't work all the time, but
Speaker 1: it helps.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely, I like that idea of how we're almost
Speaker 2: having to sell to our brain, Like the idea of
Speaker 2: selling this you call it the great What was it?
Speaker 2: The great?
Speaker 1: It's not my phrase, but it's from this guy, doctor
Speaker 1: Jed Brewer, and he's written some books about anxiety, and
Speaker 1: it's called the bigger, better offer.
Speaker 2: The bigger better office. Sorry, yes, the bigger better offer. Like,
Speaker 2: I love that idea of having to sell that idea,
Speaker 2: pledge that idea, propose that idea to the brain. And
Speaker 2: I definitely see that as valuable. And I've found that
Speaker 2: with the way that that worked for me was having
Speaker 2: to remind myself after I made the right decision. So
Speaker 2: what I mean by that is, if I'm going to
Speaker 2: reach for my phone right now, and I have the
Speaker 2: courage enough to not reach for it, but I end
Speaker 2: up spending time with my family as the bigger better offer. Now,
Speaker 2: after I've spent time with my family and I've enjoyed
Speaker 2: it this time, they're not annoying, Then after I do that,
Speaker 2: I need to deeply code that into my memory, like
Speaker 2: I need to make a feel out of it, like
Speaker 2: I need to tell my friend about it. I need
Speaker 2: to journal about it. I need to record it, I
Speaker 2: need to take a picture of whatever it is. Because
Speaker 2: what I found is that the mind needs to be
Speaker 2: reminded again when I reach for the phone that the bigger,
Speaker 2: better offer will win, but that memory he doesn't get
Speaker 2: stored deep enough for us to be able to rediscover
Speaker 2: it when we most need it. Yes, and so that's
Speaker 2: definitely helped. And I loved what you said a couple
Speaker 2: of seconds ago about being able to switch it off.
Speaker 2: I I fail at this all the time, but I've
Speaker 2: at least set the rules, and I think that's what
Speaker 2: we have to do with this, because it's it is hard.
Speaker 2: But a few years ago I set no technology times
Speaker 2: and no technology zones in my home. So I almost
Speaker 2: envisioned a no phone sign in the bedroom and at
Speaker 2: the dining table. And at one point I used to
Speaker 2: envision like lasers around the room. And second, if I
Speaker 2: walked past him with my phone, then you know whatever
Speaker 2: the floor is laughter, Yeah, like mission impossible. I just
Speaker 2: to give that feeling. And yes, of course, have I
Speaker 2: walked through a laser with my phone. Of course I have.
Speaker 2: But I like the idea of knowing that. Look, there
Speaker 2: are certain rooms in my home where technology is not
Speaker 2: the space. So actually, if I want to use my phone,
Speaker 2: I have to leave that room to use it. And
Speaker 2: like you're saying about leaving your phone in another room
Speaker 2: or whatever it may be, I think is really powerful.
Speaker 2: One thing you brought up, which I actually think is
Speaker 2: that the crux of so much of this, And you
Speaker 2: mentioned the word you've been embarrassed sometimes in your social
Speaker 2: media usage, and I find that to actually be one
Speaker 2: of the deepest routes of the challenges we have with
Speaker 2: change and habit or even with meditation. Like I think
Speaker 2: as you know you've been teaching meditation for years, as
Speaker 2: if I and when I first started meditating, and even
Speaker 2: now when my attention is not as present as it
Speaker 2: can be, or I'm not as focused or I'm distracted,
Speaker 2: which still happens today after all these years of meditating,
Speaker 2: it's so easy to feel embarrassed or ashamed or guilty,
Speaker 2: and we can often start to develop it in a
Speaker 2: critic that can say some of the most hurtful things,
Speaker 2: like I'll often say to myself like, come on, man,
Speaker 2: you've been meditating for eighteen years, now, how are you distracted?
Speaker 2: Or you know you've been you know by now you
Speaker 2: should have been an expert because you're surrounded by so
Speaker 2: many experts, or what's wrong with you? Like, oh, how
Speaker 2: can you teach meditation if you can't meditate deeply like
Speaker 2: you know, whatever it may be. And it's so easy
Speaker 2: to get into that space. And one thing that I
Speaker 2: came across recently for myself was recognizing that you can't
Speaker 2: hate yourself into change, like you can't guilt yourself into growth.
Speaker 2: You can't make yourself feel so guilty that you'll suddenly
Speaker 2: achieve your goal. There almost needs to be grace there
Speaker 2: needs to be kindness. There needs to be a safe
Speaker 2: space for you to have imperfections. So I wanted to
Speaker 2: ask you, like, what have you done with that emotion
Speaker 2: of feeling embarrassed, because I actually think meditation is powerful
Speaker 2: for helping us overcome embarrassment. But I'd love to approach
Speaker 2: that with you.
Speaker 1: Well, I've had the same thoughts of you know, I
Speaker 1: don't know if you've experienced this, but you know, once
Speaker 1: you step out into the world as like something approaching
Speaker 1: a self help person, as soon as you're an asshole,
Speaker 1: you tell yourself a story about how like you're a
Speaker 1: total fraud, like the first day you screw up, you
Speaker 1: know you you're You're like, all right, well I got
Speaker 1: to close this whole business.
Speaker 2: I can relate to that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm sure, I mean I I and I think
Speaker 1: it goes to something really important, which is personal growth,
Speaker 1: spiritual development, whatever you want to call it.
Speaker 3: Is hard and messy and perfection is not on offer.
Speaker 1: And I think just knowing that and even hearing Jay
Speaker 1: Shetty talk about making mistakes and getting his shins cut
Speaker 1: off by a laser as he walks into the bedroom
Speaker 1: with his phone is useful because people need to know.
Speaker 1: It's not a straight, unbroken upward trajectory. That's that's not
Speaker 1: what this is. That's not what this is about. There's
Speaker 1: a great tweet or I guess we call him X's
Speaker 1: now or whatever whatever. There was a great X the
Speaker 1: other day from a zen rochie Roachie Joan Halifax. She's
Speaker 1: this incredible human being, and she posted a picture that
Speaker 1: was basically a bunch of squiggly lines just going nowhere,
Speaker 1: and then she the caption was the path. That's the
Speaker 1: thing we are. This is messy. We are messy animals
Speaker 1: and that's okay. And what I think is important to
Speaker 1: know is that growth is possible, but it is impossible
Speaker 1: without making a bunch of mistakes. And if you can
Speaker 1: get that into your head, you're better off. So how
Speaker 1: do you get that into your head? There's a bunch
Speaker 1: of research that I've become increasingly interested in about the
Speaker 1: possibility of reprogramming your inner dialogue. We most of us
Speaker 1: have really nasty inner weather.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 1: I sometimes joke that if anybody said to me the
Speaker 1: types of shit that I say to myself, I would
Speaker 1: be punching that person in the face. And yet I
Speaker 1: talk to myself in a quite a scathing, venomous way.
Speaker 1: I know this is not unusual, so what can we
Speaker 1: do about it? Well, you can get into the habit
Speaker 1: you can develop. And again this is a an evidence
Speaker 1: backed assertion. I'm not making just making this up, nor
Speaker 1: is it an original observation. But what I've learned is
Speaker 1: that you can get into the habit of talking to
Speaker 1: yourself the way you would talk to a friend. And
Speaker 1: there are some little hacks that make this easier. One
Speaker 1: of them is to actually refer to yourself by your name. So, Jay,
Speaker 1: I know you just got distracted in meditation, but dude,
Speaker 1: as you know, getting distracted is a part of meditation.
Speaker 3: If it was possible to.
Speaker 1: Clear your mind, then we'd have lots of people walking
Speaker 1: around with no thoughts.
Speaker 3: But that isn't possible.
Speaker 1: What is possible is to focus your mind for a
Speaker 1: few nine a seconds out of time and then start
Speaker 1: again and again and again. And we are very good
Speaker 1: at taking advice, at giving advice to other people, but
Speaker 1: not taking our own advice. And so this technique, which
Speaker 1: is called distance self talk, where you use your own
Speaker 1: name to create some distance, can allow you Jay or
Speaker 1: me Dan to give our tells the advice that we're
Speaker 1: so willing to give other people and then actually to
Speaker 1: hear it, And does that make sense?
Speaker 2: Truly? Absolutely no resates. That resonates so deeply, and I
Speaker 2: actually feel that makes complete sense because even the negative
Speaker 2: of that is true. And so I was reading just
Speaker 2: a couple of weeks ago, maybe around how the two
Speaker 2: ways we talk to ourselves negatively are either I am
Speaker 2: so we say things like I am lazy, or I'm
Speaker 2: so I'm not good enough for I'm the worst, or
Speaker 2: you know, I'm the least intelligent out of all my friends,
Speaker 2: or whatever is right, I am statements. And the other
Speaker 2: one they were saying, which was even worse, was we
Speaker 2: have a voice in our head that sounds like an
Speaker 2: authority figure that says you're the worst or and you
Speaker 2: aren't good enough, or you're behind, or whatever it may be.
Speaker 2: And that almost sounds like there's an external authority, whether
Speaker 2: it could have been a teacher or a parent, a
Speaker 2: family member who may have said that to us, and
Speaker 2: now it's internalized as a negative authority in our minds.
Speaker 2: And so what you're actually saying is the positive authority
Speaker 2: also works that if someone says your name Jay or Dan,
Speaker 2: and then coaches you and guides you through that. Would
Speaker 2: you say that that's a skill that you have harnessed
Speaker 2: and nourished through meditation or do you see that as
Speaker 2: separate to meditation.
Speaker 1: I think it's absolutely complementary. You know, as you know
Speaker 1: in meditation you are. One of the benefits is that
Speaker 1: you're more self aware. You're more aware of all of
Speaker 1: these wild thoughts careening through your head, and so it's
Speaker 1: easier to wake up now. I mean, I get lost
Speaker 1: in you know, homicidal fantasies and you know, on speakable fantasy,
Speaker 1: other kinds of fantasies. That's just the mind. But I'm
Speaker 1: more likely now to have some self awareness. I mean
Speaker 1: another word for that is mindfulness, to be able to
Speaker 1: see what's happening between my ears, behind my eyes without
Speaker 1: necessarily being caught.
Speaker 3: Up in it.
Speaker 1: And so the sooner I can wake up to the
Speaker 1: fact that I'm in the middle of a jag of
Speaker 1: self judgment, then I can bring in these tools. Oh yeah,
Speaker 1: you know what I need to do right now is
Speaker 1: have a talk between the sane part of myself and
Speaker 1: the insane part of myself. And as you said before,
Speaker 1: the the inner critic comes to the ball masquerading is wisdom,
Speaker 1: but it's not wisdom. It's it's it is your ancient fears,
Speaker 1: and it is the dysfunction of the larger culture. So
Speaker 1: you might be telling yourself you need to look better. Well,
Speaker 1: that's not your voice. That is as to invoke another
Speaker 1: amazing person, Sonya Renee or one of my Sonya Renee Taylor,
Speaker 1: I believe is her name. I'm embarrassing, I'm forgetting her
Speaker 1: last name, but she's a great writer. And she said
Speaker 1: something to the effect of, when I see self criticism,
Speaker 1: I realize it's not my voice. It's the voice of
Speaker 1: the system. And so you're telling yourself you don't look good. Well,
Speaker 1: who's by whose standards? It's the culture standards. And I
Speaker 1: have two modes that I'm least proud of. One is
Speaker 1: greedy and the other is angry. Angry, And as over time,
Speaker 1: I've learned to actually have some affection for these modes
Speaker 1: because it's just the organism trying to protect itself. It's
Speaker 1: just my ancient fear based patterns doing their best. Usually,
Speaker 1: you know, like it's a five year old's version of
Speaker 1: doing their best to protect this body. But I don't
Speaker 1: need to listen to them, and in fact, the radical
Speaker 1: disarmament is to actually make friends with them, to kind
Speaker 1: of high five those demons instead of trying to slay them.
Speaker 1: And for me, that's been really useful. And just to
Speaker 1: get it back to your question, combining these, I would
Speaker 1: say modern psychological tools with ancient contemplative tools has really
Speaker 1: been helpful.
Speaker 2: Absolutely. Yeah, I love you just reminded me of making
Speaker 2: that point about the system that you quoted there reminds
Speaker 2: me of years yes, and years and years ago. I
Speaker 2: was when I was a student in London and I
Speaker 2: remember walking through, you know, like a department store and
Speaker 2: there was a big advert that said get the natural look,
Speaker 2: and then it was like all these things that products
Speaker 2: that can help you get the natural look. And just
Speaker 2: that idea of purchasing a natural look is fascinating because.
Speaker 3: As if you weren't born with them.
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, but it is that voice right saying okay, well,
Speaker 2: even to get a natural look. And again, you know,
Speaker 2: I think there are pros and consom in you. I'm
Speaker 2: a big fan of so many products, so many services,
Speaker 2: so many things, and so it's not to say it's
Speaker 2: all bad, but there is a need in mindfulness to
Speaker 2: I think what you're saying is to differentiate and have
Speaker 2: the ability of discernment between is this voice me or
Speaker 2: is this something outside of me, whether it's a system
Speaker 2: or a person or whatever it may be. And I
Speaker 2: think that's the quality that we need, because it isn't
Speaker 2: necessarily saying I'm just going to shut everything off and
Speaker 2: nothing matters. It's this idea of can I tell? Can
Speaker 2: I tell that when I'm listening to the voice in
Speaker 2: my head as to whether it's truly mine or whether
Speaker 2: it's being picked up or nurtured by some other external force.
Speaker 1: Another fascinating question is what is me? Close your eyes
Speaker 1: and look inside. Can you find some core nuggative j
Speaker 1: and spend some time with that question that'll pop you
Speaker 1: out of ruminating about lots of other unhealthy things.
Speaker 2: Where is that question taken you?
Speaker 3: I think you think.
Speaker 1: I think you come more out of the Hindu tradition,
Speaker 1: and I come a little bit more out of the
Speaker 1: Buddhist tradition, even though I don't look like it. But
Speaker 1: you know, that's That's where I've spent the last fifteen
Speaker 1: years of my life really doing a lot of study.
Speaker 1: And one of the things I say in Tibetan Buddhism
Speaker 1: is that the not finding is the finding because there's
Speaker 1: nothing to find there. I yes, I mean on the convention,
Speaker 1: on the level of consensual, conventional reality, I'm Dan and
Speaker 1: that camera's taking a picture of me, And yes, that
Speaker 1: is true. But on the deepest possible level, if I
Speaker 1: look for some core nugget of Dan, there's nothing to find,
Speaker 1: and that not finding is the answer. And if can
Speaker 1: you stay with that ambiguity, there is something healing about that.
Speaker 1: So how how do you take that out of the
Speaker 1: esoteric clouds into your actual life? One little linguistic trick.
Speaker 1: You kind of teed me up for this before, because
Speaker 1: you use the phrase I am like, I am so,
Speaker 1: and so what if you just and this is I
Speaker 1: want to give credit to the person who came up
Speaker 1: with this. It's Joseph Goldstein is a great meditation teacher,
Speaker 1: but he often advises his students to say, instead of
Speaker 1: I am fill in the blank, there is fill in
Speaker 1: the blank. There is hunger right now, there is anger
Speaker 1: in my mind right now, there is sadness in my
Speaker 1: mind right.
Speaker 3: Now, there's no you to find.
Speaker 1: The adding of the you on top of it is
Speaker 1: just adding insult to injury, right, you don't that's extra,
Speaker 1: but that it's true that hunger and sadness can be
Speaker 1: here right now. But if you can take the I
Speaker 1: am out of it and to that there is, well
Speaker 1: that it's workable. Right, you can do something with it.
Speaker 1: You can let it pass, you can observe it, you
Speaker 1: can try to work with it. But if you add
Speaker 1: in a whole story about how ij or I dan
Speaker 1: I mean curably fill in the blank, well that's much.
Speaker 3: That's a much bigger problem.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I love that. I mean I've never heard that
Speaker 2: there is. That's beautiful, that's that's really I can totally
Speaker 2: see how that is such a beautiful tool and an
Speaker 2: insight for people to use as language. Because it's interesting, though,
Speaker 2: isn't it? Because it feels like we're all so obsessed
Speaker 2: with identity in our stories and almost what you're proposing
Speaker 2: is this idea of recognizing that there's somewhat of a
Speaker 2: distance between us and our identity and story. Yet everything
Speaker 2: we've been discussing today, whether it's social media, whether it's
Speaker 2: the system, whether it's the story your parents laid out
Speaker 2: for you, all of that, there's stories to be lived, crafted,
Speaker 2: told and almost we're all living on our own stories
Speaker 2: in our own mind. And so yeah, how are you
Speaker 2: able to operate as Dan Harris, the teacher, the guide,
Speaker 2: the you know podcast, et cetera. And then also have
Speaker 2: the the balance of this recognition that actually there is
Speaker 2: and there's no I am.
Speaker 3: Well, can I turn it around?
Speaker 2: Of course?
Speaker 1: Like my last retreat was six to nine months ago,
Speaker 1: I've got one coming up. So I'm like further and
Speaker 1: further away from sanity, but you are much fresher, like
Speaker 1: you've just come out of a retreat.
Speaker 3: How do you balance that?
Speaker 2: There's an understanding of the needs and interests of the
Speaker 2: different vehicles in which I live. So the body being
Speaker 2: one vehicle, the body has certain needs in order to
Speaker 2: operate and in order to function, and then the mind
Speaker 2: has certain needs and awareness that it will easily be
Speaker 2: a support or as the getas as the best friend
Speaker 2: of the worst enemy. So recognizing again as you said earlier,
Speaker 2: the befriending of the mind requires an awareness and then
Speaker 2: at a deeper level, looking at our emotions, looking at
Speaker 2: our spiritual or consciousness connection. And so to me, it's
Speaker 2: the outlining and awareness of the needs for that specific vehicle,
Speaker 2: but not falling into the trap of believing the vehicle
Speaker 2: is me. And the balance comes from recognizing using there
Speaker 2: is is beautiful actually, but recognizing that there are needs
Speaker 2: for each aspect that need to be taken care of,
Speaker 2: but that one should not accept each of them to
Speaker 2: be oneself. And I think for me that comes in
Speaker 2: the form of having to remind myself of that which
Speaker 2: is beyond the physical self, because it's easier to get
Speaker 2: connected and identify with the farhysical self than it is
Speaker 2: with the non physical self. Because the non physical self
Speaker 2: is intangible, it's unseen when unaware of it, we don't
Speaker 2: live in a society that reminds us of it. I
Speaker 2: was thinking about this while I was actually at the monastery.
Speaker 2: So the monastery doesn't have mirrors, and that was something
Speaker 2: I've talked about before, where you lose your sense of
Speaker 2: your physical self. Like while I lived there, I didn't
Speaker 2: really I forgot deeply what I look like, and so
Speaker 2: if I was out on the streets when I was traveling,
Speaker 2: I would always try and look at my reflection in
Speaker 2: a you know, in a shop window, whatever it may be.
Speaker 2: And when I was back this time as well, I
Speaker 2: was having that realization that the number one thing I
Speaker 2: do in the morning when I wake up back at
Speaker 2: my home is I look in the mirror. And so
Speaker 2: I'm already from the moment I wake up living in
Speaker 2: my physical self. I'm now living believing that I am
Speaker 2: this body and this is all there is. And so
Speaker 2: that automatically sets me up on the opposite end of
Speaker 2: what I'm trying to practice spiritually. And so I found
Speaker 2: that the balance is kept by making that reminder, that
Speaker 2: first thought of the day of recognizing, whether it's in
Speaker 2: your language, you know that which is not or that
Speaker 2: which is unseen. And in the Hindu tradition, the accepting
Speaker 2: of us being pure, eternal, full of knowledge, and full
Speaker 2: of bliss is consciousness identifying with that before I identify
Speaker 2: with anything else, and that, to me is what helps
Speaker 2: the balance, is not falling into the easy identification. I
Speaker 2: don't know if any of that made any sense.
Speaker 3: But well I does.
Speaker 1: I think, Well, you're aware through your own practice that
Speaker 1: there's more than just the jay you see in the mirror,
Speaker 1: and yet you live in a busy world and you're actually,
Speaker 1: like me, you're kind of building a business around the
Speaker 1: small version of yourself, like the physical, corporeal version of
Speaker 1: yourself that presents here and now, smaller than the sort
Speaker 1: of vast, infinite, mysterious we don't know what that is
Speaker 1: somehow lives in your mind. And the way that you
Speaker 1: balance it, I heard, is just engaging the messy business
Speaker 1: of trying to remember to the best of your ability.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I can't, I can't. I don't need to remind
Speaker 2: myself that I'm jay this physical version, because I'm reminded
Speaker 2: of that every day. But I have to remind myself
Speaker 2: of that which is beyond this, because otherwise it's so
Speaker 2: easy to lose touch with it. Because we are living
Speaker 2: with the bodily needs is the prime focus. And I
Speaker 2: think that's why retreats and experiences are so supportive, where
Speaker 2: the bodily needs somewhat become a background priority and the
Speaker 2: needs of the deeper self rise and the connection with
Speaker 2: that self is more prominent. And I find that starting
Speaker 2: my year of that way helps. I was actually just
Speaker 2: I was talking to someone who was mentioning they came
Speaker 2: to one of your retreats at Omega, and they were saying,
Speaker 2: what a beautiful experience that was there, said it was
Speaker 2: the only retreat they've ever been on, but they plan
Speaker 2: on coming on more. And it was for that same
Speaker 2: reason to be reminded. And I think that's why we
Speaker 2: do anything right. I think we most of what we
Speaker 2: do is to remind ourselves of something that we care
Speaker 2: about and something that's meaningful to us, whether it's spending
Speaker 2: time with our family or why we celebrate the holidays,
Speaker 2: like so much of I think the most beautiful things
Speaker 2: in our world are reminding us of what truly matters.
Speaker 2: And I think spiritual and meditation. To me, meditation is
Speaker 2: my daily practice overmind myself of what truly matters exactly.
Speaker 1: I mean, I think the biggest problem in my experience,
Speaker 1: the biggest problem in whatever again, like I don't know
Speaker 1: what to call this, personal growth, spiritual development, whatever it is.
Speaker 1: The biggest challenge is forgetting. Because you hear a great podcast,
Speaker 1: you see a great Instagram post, you read a great book,
Speaker 1: you go to a great retreat, but then everything about
Speaker 1: modern life pulls you back into the I'm going to
Speaker 1: get satisfaction from the next thing. Oh no, no, the
Speaker 1: next thing. I'm going to keep scrolling. I'm gonna get
Speaker 1: that next sip of a latte, I'm going to get
Speaker 1: the next promotion. And again I'm not saying these are
Speaker 1: bad things, but they won't do it for you. Right,
Speaker 1: There's a reason why you keep wanting more because the
Speaker 1: way the human animals designed is natural selection. Didn't want
Speaker 1: us to be satisfied becase then we stop, you know,
Speaker 1: having babies, and that wouldn't be good for the species.
Speaker 1: So you need to wake you need this is a
Speaker 1: urgent mission. You need to find as many ways as
Speaker 1: possible to wake back up. And you just describe, you know,
Speaker 1: meditation is a great way to like pound this stuff
Speaker 1: into your neurons. It's probably too aggressive of an analogy,
Speaker 1: but it gets it into your molecules in a way.
Speaker 1: And another thing you also described earlier is having good friends.
Speaker 1: You know, if you can surround yourself with people who
Speaker 1: are also taking this thing seriously, that is a great
Speaker 1: way to wake yourself back up.
Speaker 3: And it also, by the way, is a.
Speaker 1: Great way to get you out of your attachment to
Speaker 1: this sort of I don't know if this is the
Speaker 1: appropriate term to use, but the sort of smallest, most
Speaker 1: superficial version of yourself, the brand of Dan, the brand
Speaker 1: of Jay. Well, if you're talking to your best friend
Speaker 1: and he's got a problem and you're helping him with it.
Speaker 1: Another word for that would be generosity. Right, if you're
Speaker 1: being generous in some way that's going to get you
Speaker 1: out of your head, that is a form of letting go.
Speaker 2: Mm hmmm, I like that. Yeah, that really that struck
Speaker 2: a corde of like how again, going back to that
Speaker 2: being when when we're being a I guess in that
Speaker 2: case you said generous. There's an element of us not
Speaker 2: living in the system, is what you say? That feels right? Why?
Speaker 2: Why is that? Why? Why do you think that breaks
Speaker 2: the system?
Speaker 1: It's a little line that I have which is impolite,
Speaker 1: but the view is so much better when you pull
Speaker 1: your head out of your ass, and you know, if
Speaker 1: you're being generous, your.
Speaker 3: Head's out of your ass.
Speaker 1: Even if you have ulterior motives, which I think we
Speaker 1: unfairly demonize, like it's okay to give because you know
Speaker 1: you have some there's something in it for you. By
Speaker 1: the way, there is something in it for you. The
Speaker 1: brain is wired to experience intense reward in the act
Speaker 1: of generosity. That's cool, but you're still more of your
Speaker 1: bandwidth focused on the benefit to somebody else. Than there
Speaker 1: would be if you were like mindlessly scrolling or binging
Speaker 1: or eating or whatever it is. And it is just
Speaker 1: fundamentally getting your head out of your ass in whatever
Speaker 1: form you choose. And it doesn't have to be giving money.
Speaker 1: It can be holding the door open for somebody. I
Speaker 1: sometimes ask people to do this little mental, very easy
Speaker 1: mental game of like, pay attention. The next time you
Speaker 1: hold the door open for somebody, what does that feel like?
Speaker 1: It feels good if you're paying attention. That feeling is
Speaker 1: infinitely scalable in a way that the pleasure of Instagram
Speaker 1: or ice cream is not. And I just you can
Speaker 1: ride that insight. Not that I do it perfectly, if
Speaker 1: at all, but you can, if you're so inclined, ride
Speaker 1: that insight all the way to significantly greater levels of happiness.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Wow, I love that. I love that. That's so
Speaker 2: interesting that after all these years, you can still open
Speaker 2: the door for someone and it still feels great and
Speaker 2: you know whether whether the other person responds or not.
Speaker 2: But the endless scrolling on social media is kind of yeah,
Speaker 2: loses its taste very very quickly.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it doesn't mean you should ever do it. It's
Speaker 1: just the endless part that you should lose.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, absolutely, I mean, I guess that's one of
Speaker 2: the things I loved about in this book when I
Speaker 2: first came across it. Your book Ten Percent Happier, which is,
Speaker 2: you know, a huge best seller, huge success led to
Speaker 2: the podcast. Also, one of the things I loved was
Speaker 2: this whole idea about without losing your edge. And I
Speaker 2: really appreciated that because I think it's what we've both
Speaker 2: been talking about here. Like I enjoy operating and building
Speaker 2: and creating like I do, and I've always been. I
Speaker 2: feel like I'm at a point in my life where
Speaker 2: I've given myself permission to be all aspects of myself.
Speaker 2: And up until this stage in my life, I was
Speaker 2: just collecting different parts of myself, and so I felt
Speaker 2: like I collected to I mean, zero to ten probably
Speaker 2: didn't do anything, but ten to twenty collected things. Twenty
Speaker 2: to thirty I collected things. And now I'm in my thirties,
Speaker 2: I feel like I'm connecting things. And that collection to
Speaker 2: connection has been primarily through the uncomfortable process of accepting
Speaker 2: and giving myself permission for the paradoxical and contradictory things
Speaker 2: that live in within me. So as much as I
Speaker 2: love being fully present and mindful and deeply purifying myself,
Speaker 2: I also really enjoy building and creating and learning and
Speaker 2: being curious and outward. And those two things coexist, and
Speaker 2: I actually find that one feeds the other. So I
Speaker 2: find that the further I go outwards, the more I
Speaker 2: want to go inwards, and the more I go inwards,
Speaker 2: the more I want to go outwards in a positive sense,
Speaker 2: And that cycle continues, and it's a cycle, it's not
Speaker 2: a and I think both of us, having studied Eastern traditions,
Speaker 2: the East is fully cyclical and not linear in all
Speaker 2: of its practices. So the growth journey looks like this,
Speaker 2: and the Western growth journey generally is portrayed as that,
Speaker 2: though even though it may not.
Speaker 1: Be, there's a way in which you can assume that
Speaker 1: sitting and meditating or even going to a can you
Speaker 1: believe this dude went to a monastery for ten days
Speaker 1: a couple of days ago, Like, that's not going to
Speaker 1: help him with his edge, But actually it does help you.
Speaker 3: It does help you.
Speaker 1: Do you want to be less emotionally reactive? Do you
Speaker 1: want to be more focused? Do you want to have
Speaker 1: better relationships with your collaborators. Okay, do you think going
Speaker 1: to a monastery is going to help or hurt with
Speaker 1: those things? It's going to help with all of those things,
Speaker 1: and those are the things we need to be successful.
Speaker 1: We've been sold through hustle culture this idea that you know,
Speaker 1: thank God it's Monday, I've got to rise and grind
Speaker 1: and all of that stuff. But that that is, in
Speaker 1: my experience, a great way to burn out, when in fact,
Speaker 1: that the cycle that you just talked about of retreat
Speaker 1: to advance kind of you know, you take some you
Speaker 1: don't have to do it. It doesn't even have to be
Speaker 1: a retreat. It can be just five minutes of meditation
Speaker 1: every day. That that is filling your tank in a
Speaker 1: way that allows you to engage in the world more effectively.
Speaker 1: And so these two things are not in opposition in
Speaker 1: my experience. And you're a walking example of that, Like
Speaker 1: you spent time being a monk, and that has helped
Speaker 1: you build a business that helps other people, that helps
Speaker 1: you do more inner work.
Speaker 3: Boom.
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, And of course, and I love what you
Speaker 2: said there, because yeah, we've talked a bit about retreats,
Speaker 2: and I don't want everyone to think they need to
Speaker 2: disappear for a week or a year or whatever it
Speaker 2: may be. All of this can be done in the
Speaker 2: microcosm of five minutes. I want to don walk us
Speaker 2: through your daily meditation practice. And I'm sure you've done
Speaker 2: this a million times, but I'd love for people to
Speaker 2: hear it, because I'd love for people to hear how
Speaker 2: accessible some of these ideas are on a daily basis
Speaker 2: that we're talking about, and of course in a way
Speaker 2: that they can start practicing as well. So what is
Speaker 2: your data practice.
Speaker 1: I'm actually I'm excited where you're interviewing me right now.
Speaker 1: But then in like two minutes we're going to turn
Speaker 1: this around and I'm gonna interview you and I because
Speaker 1: we come from different traditions, so I actually come into
Speaker 1: my discussion with you with a lot of curiosity about
Speaker 1: what your meditation is like. So from a Buddhist standpoint,
Speaker 1: it's for beginners really not complex, and a lot of
Speaker 1: people worry that it's going to be you know, esoteric
Speaker 1: or impossible, but it really isn't. There's really three steps
Speaker 1: for beginning mindfulness meditation. And by the way, I did
Speaker 1: use I keep talking about Buddhism, but this meditation that
Speaker 1: I'm talking about now is secular. There's no religious lingo
Speaker 1: or metaphysical claims. It's just a it's a very simple,
Speaker 1: secular kind of exercise for the brain. And the first
Speaker 1: step is just to sit or lie down comfortably, close
Speaker 1: your eyes. And the second step is to bring your
Speaker 1: full attention to the feeling of your breath coming in
Speaker 1: and going out. For some people, the breath is can
Speaker 1: make you a little anxious if you're focusing on that,
Speaker 1: and if that's you, then you just pick something else,
Speaker 1: like the feeling of your body sitting or lying down.
Speaker 1: So that's step number two. First, get into a comfortable position,
Speaker 1: sitting or lying down. Second, pick something to focus on,
Speaker 1: like your breath or the feeling of your body. And
Speaker 1: then the step is the most important because as soon
Speaker 1: as you try to do this, your mind is likely
Speaker 1: to go into mutiny mode. You're having in all these
Speaker 1: random thoughts and urges and emotions, and at this moment,
Speaker 1: the voice in people's heads often swoops in and tells
Speaker 1: them and this whole story about how they're failed meditators.
Speaker 1: I mean, you were talking about this earlier, but that
Speaker 1: voice is wrong. The whole goal in meditation is just
Speaker 1: to notice that you've become distracted and to start again
Speaker 1: and again and again. And the waking up from distraction
Speaker 1: is not proof of failure. It's actually a proof of
Speaker 1: success because the whole goal here is to get more
Speaker 1: familiar with this inner conversation that we're all having, this
Speaker 1: inner narrator that is chasing us out of bed in
Speaker 1: the morning and is yammering at us all day long.
Speaker 1: You just want to get more familiar with this cacophony
Speaker 1: so that it doesn't own you as much. So it's
Speaker 1: really that simple. Pick one thing to focus on, usually
Speaker 1: the breath. Then in a few seconds in you'll start
Speaker 1: having random thoughts about like what kind of bird was
Speaker 1: big bird? Or you know where do gerbils run wild? Whatever,
Speaker 1: as random thoughts. As soon as you wake up from
Speaker 1: those thoughts, blow them a kiss and go back to
Speaker 1: the breath. Back to the breath, over and over and
Speaker 1: over again. And that's like a bicep curl for your brain.
Speaker 1: And that's what we see on the brain scans of
Speaker 1: people who meditate, that the area of the brain associated
Speaker 1: with attention or focus changes in a positive way. Meanwhile,
Speaker 1: the area of the brain associated with stress shrinks. And
Speaker 1: this is an exercise that anybody can do. I will
Speaker 1: say small asterisk. If you have significant mental health challenges
Speaker 1: or trauma, it might be good to do it under
Speaker 1: the supervision of a mental health professional, but other than that,
Speaker 1: it really is universally accessible. It doesn't matter what your
Speaker 1: religious beliefs are, or if, like me, you're an agnostic.
Speaker 1: This is simple secular exercise for your brain.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I love what you said is that we're
Speaker 2: really just trying to get attuned to that in a
Speaker 2: voice that is basically telling us what to do all
Speaker 2: day and pushing around in every direction. I find that
Speaker 2: that voice has often led us to achieve incredible things.
Speaker 2: That voice often leads us to achieve things and still
Speaker 2: feel unfulfilled. That voice has almost becomes such a friend
Speaker 2: in so many ways, and sometimes a toxic friend. It's
Speaker 2: almost a toxic relationship we have with the voice inside
Speaker 2: of our head where we listen to it, but we
Speaker 2: don't always like it. But sometimes it helps us win,
Speaker 2: and sometimes it you know, sometimes it helps us get
Speaker 2: one up on someone and then other times it lets
Speaker 2: us down. And it's doing all of this. It's almost like,
Speaker 2: I think, like a toxic relationship. We're scared of letting
Speaker 2: go of that voice because it's almost like, what do
Speaker 2: I replace it with? Yes, I'm just going to be alone.
Speaker 1: Well, a couple things to say about that. One is
Speaker 1: there are many voices. I mean, one of the theories
Speaker 1: of modern psychological theories is called the modular model of mind.
Speaker 3: That we have these modes.
Speaker 1: I kind of think about it like you remember magic
Speaker 1: eight balls. I still love that, And the tiles compete
Speaker 1: for the top space that you that and then we'll
Speaker 1: send you a message or whatever.
Speaker 3: So we have a bunch of tiles in our head
Speaker 3: and they're all.
Speaker 1: Competing for that little for the steering wheel, right, And
Speaker 1: so I've got a jealous mode, an angry mode, a
Speaker 1: fearful mode, a self critical mode, and I think often
Speaker 1: the self critical mode is the one with a steering wheel.
Speaker 1: But you have a wise mode, a generous mode, a
Speaker 1: compassionate mode, and they're often just not getting that much airtime.
Speaker 1: And there are ways through meditation, through therapy, being in nature,
Speaker 1: exercise that can bring the healthier tiles to the surface.
Speaker 1: And so that's just one thing to say. And then
Speaker 1: the other thing to say is that, yeah, it's true
Speaker 1: that this self criticism. We're scared that if we let
Speaker 1: it go, that will be on the couch eating ice
Speaker 1: cream until the end of time. And that's just not
Speaker 1: what's going to happen. Back to Tibetan Buddhism, and I'm
Speaker 1: not an expert in it, but they have this expression
Speaker 1: that I have a couple of colleagues wh are sitting
Speaker 1: on a couch over here who have heard me say
Speaker 1: this a million times, but I really love this. This
Speaker 1: there's the Tibetan word for enlightenment. As far as I
Speaker 1: understand it roughly translates into a clearing away and a
Speaker 1: bringing forth. You clear away the noise of our All
Speaker 1: of our demons are unhelpful demons. What can come out
Speaker 1: is what is already there in all of us, which
Speaker 1: is the good stuff.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 1: You might use the word the loaded word love, and
Speaker 1: I think of love as like sort of an overarching
Speaker 1: term that encompasses things like generosity, compassion, kindness, patience, ethics,
Speaker 1: and that is in us. Of course, it's in us
Speaker 1: because back to evolution as a social species, we needed
Speaker 1: all that stuff in order to cooperate and collaborate and
Speaker 1: become the apex predator on the planet. And when you
Speaker 1: turn the volume down on the shittier aspects of our nature,
Speaker 1: the good stuff will come out. And it's it's it
Speaker 1: has an edge. It has the edge that you want.
Speaker 1: It does want to create beautiful and important things in
Speaker 1: the world. It does want to take care of you too,
Speaker 1: as well as it wants to take care of everybody
Speaker 1: it it does. It does want to stand up to injustice.
Speaker 1: It does want to be tough, but not motivated by
Speaker 1: hatred instead by the good stuff, which is like giving
Speaker 1: a shit caring anyway. That's that's all my experience about this. Absolutely,
Speaker 1: and you're not. I'm not perfect at it by any stretch.
Speaker 1: I mean I've been. I made a reference to the
Speaker 1: Liz a TONI were sitting in the room with us,
Speaker 1: like give them the mic. They'll tell you, you know
Speaker 1: ninety still a moron.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, no, no, no, But but I love the idea
Speaker 2: of how we're simply reconnecting with and reawakening something we've forgotten.
Speaker 2: So it's almost like we're associating with that angry mode,
Speaker 2: that envy mode, that jealousy mode, that ego mode every day,
Speaker 2: and so we've started to accept that it's our reality
Speaker 2: and normality. Whereas you said, we do also have a
Speaker 2: wise mode. It's just that we haven't experienced it either
Speaker 2: outside of us or inside of us for so long
Speaker 2: that we've forgotten it's there. But it is there, it
Speaker 2: is accessible, And I think that is not only true
Speaker 2: based on the wisdom traditions we've studied, but it's also
Speaker 2: empowering to recognize that this isn't something new you're having
Speaker 2: to figure out or develop. It's an ability that almost
Speaker 2: exists within you already that has just been buried and
Speaker 2: covered over by all these other layers of identification and impurities.
Speaker 3: Exactly.
Speaker 2: You've been so vulnerable a couple of times to mention
Speaker 2: this thing inside of you as an anger mode. You
Speaker 2: were saying earlier you have two modes, and one of
Speaker 2: them was anger. And I wanted, if it's okay, to
Speaker 2: kind of hone in on that, because I think that's
Speaker 2: something we've actually never really discussed on the podcast, in
Speaker 2: all the guests we've had, and I think it's something
Speaker 2: that often is something people are scared head of talking about.
Speaker 2: It's a taboo topic because of the connotations that anger
Speaker 2: is associated with. And I was wondering how as meditation
Speaker 2: and mindfulness, what have they shown you or helped you
Speaker 2: understand about anger? Because I think I think our mind
Speaker 2: often goes to what I want to stop being angry,
Speaker 2: rather than I want to understand anger. And I think
Speaker 2: this is so true for so many things in society.
Speaker 2: We're like, I wish that would just stop. And it's
Speaker 2: almost like, well, before it stops, we may need to
Speaker 2: get to know it a bit better and understand it
Speaker 2: and befriend it. Going back to the high five point
Speaker 2: you made earlier, and so I thought, let's start with
Speaker 2: anger for that.
Speaker 3: Sure.
Speaker 1: I mean, there's this great I know you know who
Speaker 1: he is, but there's this great Vietnamese zen master, tiknat Han,
Speaker 1: and I love he has this this expression about like
Speaker 1: holding your anger like a.
Speaker 3: Like a baby.
Speaker 1: I don't love that because I'm such an anti sentimentalist,
Speaker 1: and I you know, I find it like sohat annoying.
Speaker 1: Even though he's completely right. He's a genius, or was
Speaker 1: a genius he passed recently. There's something to that. First
Speaker 1: of all, the anger is trying to tell you something.
Speaker 1: In my case, it's like some infantile usually desire to protect.
Speaker 3: Myself and.
Speaker 1: Often it's Sometimes anger has been described as a secondary emotion,
Speaker 1: so it's an emotion that's covering up for another emotion.
Speaker 1: And for my case, it's usually fear. So I'm a
Speaker 1: guy and we don't like to admit fear. And often
Speaker 1: if I look closely, if I hold the anger like
Speaker 1: a like a crying child, if I get over myself
Speaker 1: and do the thing that the wise person has mentioned
Speaker 1: that we should probably do, I actually see, oh yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm scared of something here. And that's really helpful because
Speaker 1: then I can I can respond wisely to the thing
Speaker 1: that's making me angry slash scared, rather than reacting blindly.
Speaker 1: There's a difference between healthy anger and destructive anger. Again,
Speaker 1: this is not my insight. This is the way in
Speaker 1: psychological circles they talk about it. Healthy anger is that
Speaker 1: can get you off the couch to do something about
Speaker 1: a problem, and it's clarifying it.
Speaker 3: It can help.
Speaker 1: Healthy anger can help us see clearly where somebody's full
Speaker 1: of shit. Although there's a reason why we talk about
Speaker 1: anger as seeing read because it can also be you know,
Speaker 1: blind with blind rage. And so that's the destructive anger,
Speaker 1: which where that's an anger fueled by hatred fueled by bias, bigotry,
Speaker 1: and it can get us into endless conflict, and that's
Speaker 1: what you want to avoid. That's what I've failed to
Speaker 1: avoid for too many times in my own life and
Speaker 1: still screw that up, you know, regularly. But it's nothing
Speaker 1: can happen until you identify the problem. You talked about
Speaker 1: this earlier, you know, like one of the things that
Speaker 1: meditation does for you is it helps you be aware
Speaker 1: of stuff so that you can work with it. And
Speaker 1: so yeah, this is one of my big things that
Speaker 1: I have to work with.
Speaker 2: Yeah, thank you for sharing that. No, I really value
Speaker 2: that understanding of the difference in the two angers that
Speaker 2: you just mentioned there. But also yeah, just being able
Speaker 2: to recognize the fear that sits beneath it. And I can.
Speaker 2: When I get agitated or irritated, it's always because there's
Speaker 2: something I'm fearful of, and often it's even the fear
Speaker 2: of messing up. You know. It's for me, I'm thinking
Speaker 2: of when I'm asked a question and I feel like
Speaker 2: I don't have any enough time to solve it, and
Speaker 2: then I'm like, oh, just you know whatever, Like that
Speaker 2: kind of agitation, that irritation comes out, and really it's
Speaker 2: a fear of I'm like, I wish we had more time,
Speaker 2: I would be able to solve this, like I don't
Speaker 2: want to mess up. I don't want to give it
Speaker 2: and so and it's so interesting that what is actually
Speaker 2: well intentioned of a desire to want to get things
Speaker 2: right turns out to be experienced as that. And like
Speaker 2: you said, and like you mentioned Tikna Hunt said of
Speaker 2: being able to hold it as a baby or being
Speaker 2: able to Yeah, it's almost like it's so interesting though
Speaker 2: what you said about the not the skepticism that you have,
Speaker 2: but the you know, you were saying, the overly sentimental
Speaker 2: version of holding a baby. And I think often that
Speaker 2: is the perspective people have of these ideas, right with mindfulness,
Speaker 2: with meditation, that oh, it's sentimental, it's a bit fluffy,
Speaker 2: it's a bit woo and we know there's science behind
Speaker 2: it now and those those days should be gone, but
Speaker 2: they're not, because there's still a skepticism and cynicism around
Speaker 2: the idea of like, oh, yeah, my fear is like whatever,
Speaker 2: there's no fear, right, because that in and of itself
Speaker 2: is trying to protect us from or trying to protect
Speaker 2: us from our fear. And so how have you seen
Speaker 2: in others and how have you and yourself been able
Speaker 2: to catch yourself double bluffing yourself or when you're almost
Speaker 2: you know, you're finding that way around doing the actual work.
Speaker 1: One of the biggest and most reliable sources of feedback
Speaker 1: for me is defensiveness or dismissiveness. If I am dismissing
Speaker 1: something out of hand, it's usually something I should listen to.
Speaker 1: And if I'm getting defensive, it's because it's something I
Speaker 1: know I should hear that I'm unwilling to hear at
Speaker 1: that moment. And I almost never catch I almost never
Speaker 1: catch it in the moment.
Speaker 3: I almost never catch it in the moment.
Speaker 1: But it's usually when I feel embarrassed the next day.
Speaker 1: You know, it's like, it's just I keep coming back
Speaker 1: to this, you know, I'm so pissed that this person
Speaker 1: said this thing.
Speaker 3: Is like, ah shit, they're probably right.
Speaker 1: And so I actually got an email the other day
Speaker 1: from I won't say her name because she didn't give
Speaker 1: me permission, but from a great meditation teacher who was
Speaker 1: talking to me about something, and she I didn't recall
Speaker 1: her getting defensive. She recalled herself getting defensive about something
Speaker 1: that I was pushing her on something, and she wrote
Speaker 1: me an email the next station is like, I woke
Speaker 1: up thinking about how I was defensive and that means
Speaker 1: eitherre's something I really need to listen to there, So
Speaker 1: I'm going to go in the direction you push me.
Speaker 1: And that's that's usually how I get past the double bluff.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I think for me, it comes out in if
Speaker 2: I'm judging someone, so fund that if I'm judging someone
Speaker 2: that there's a sense of truth that that exists within
Speaker 2: me somewhere, and so I need to explore that that
Speaker 2: which I'm judging in someone else. And I've been working
Speaker 2: on that one, and that's the hardest one, and.
Speaker 1: It's the most embarrassing too, because it's like you it
Speaker 1: feels good to point at the other person there's such
Speaker 1: a schmuck or whatever, but like, of course you're seeing
Speaker 1: it so clearly, and you hate it so much because
Speaker 1: it's it's in you.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And it's so funny because when you see in them,
Speaker 2: you're like, how can they not be aware that they're
Speaker 2: like that? At the same time, you're talking about yourself
Speaker 2: and you know you've recognized you're not you're not even
Speaker 2: aware when you're like that. And I think that's where
Speaker 2: I notice where I'm where it's easy to double bluff
Speaker 2: myself and I have to be conscious of That goes
Speaker 2: along your lines too. It's that you're building a story
Speaker 2: to support your view without evidence and without research and
Speaker 2: without looking at all of the facts, and you know
Speaker 2: you've you've created a story that makes sense to you
Speaker 2: in order to fulfill your your desire, whatever that may be.
Speaker 2: And then you're not forced to actually look at yourself.
Speaker 1: There's a great expression. If it's hysterical, it's historical. You know,
Speaker 1: it's like you're getting hysterical about something. There's some it's
Speaker 1: some deep programming. And yeah, I hate admitting that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think we're both we're both going back and
Speaker 2: forth admitting all of our admitting all of our flaws
Speaker 2: and challenges and issues. But but that's well, meditation does
Speaker 2: right that this is actually what's transpired without without intention
Speaker 2: or maybe with intention. But actually this is the benefit
Speaker 2: of practicing mindfulness of meditation is a really healthy relationship
Speaker 2: with all of your imperfections.
Speaker 1: I mean, you interview all sorts of people, but you
Speaker 1: interview a lot of like great folks from the meditation world,
Speaker 1: and so do why and so in my experience, the
Speaker 1: common denominator among all of the great like spiritual masters, right,
Speaker 1: if that's a term that you're okay with, the common
Speaker 1: denominator is they all have a sense of humor. Yes,
Speaker 1: how can you look at this mind without laughing? After all,
Speaker 1: the word that my meditation teacher, Joseph Goldstein uses most
Speaker 1: frequently is ridiculous.
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, because we're ridiculous.
Speaker 1: You were ridiculous, And it's just it's so healthy to
Speaker 1: see that and laugh at it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, definitely. Yeah. Teachers would obviously always talk about the
Speaker 2: monkey mind. Yes, and although that's somewhat of a alien
Speaker 2: analogy to some degree at least when you've grown up
Speaker 2: in England or in the US, because you're not seeing
Speaker 2: monkeys all the time. But when I have gone to
Speaker 2: certain spiritual sites in India that are, you know, infiltrated
Speaker 2: with monkeys, it will only make you laugh. Like I've
Speaker 2: seen monkeys, you know, rip bags to steal fruit. I've
Speaker 2: seen monkeys steal people's sunglasses and then trade it back
Speaker 2: for food. I've seen I've seen monkeys steal credit cards
Speaker 2: like and and know how to bather for what they want,
Speaker 2: Like I've seen monkeys put in sunglasses like all you
Speaker 2: need to do. I mean me and my wife ind
Speaker 2: A Barley this year and we went to the monkey
Speaker 2: forest there and the monkeys are just hilarious. And ridiculous
Speaker 2: is the word. And it's almost that when you start
Speaker 2: seeing the habits of the mind as a monkey, it's
Speaker 2: so easy to laugh at it because you just realize
Speaker 2: how ridiculous it is, and how how hilarious they are,
Speaker 2: and how uncontrollable they are, as opposed to looking at
Speaker 2: it as this thing like almost like a Rubik's cube,
Speaker 2: which we sometimes see as and you get frustrated trying
Speaker 2: to figure it out. Espison, when you look at a monkey,
Speaker 2: you go, well, a monkey's going to be a monkey.
Speaker 2: So I'm not surprised when my mind is ridiculous. I'm
Speaker 2: not expecting my mind to be this. You know, you're
Speaker 2: never looking at a monkey expecting it to be sitting
Speaker 2: there meditag on top of a rock. You're expecting to
Speaker 2: see a monkey jump from branch to branch and swing
Speaker 2: and you know, whatever else it may be. And all
Speaker 2: of a sudden when you can and you have to
Speaker 2: have had the real experience of that in order to
Speaker 2: even have that really sit and like if I hadn't seen.
Speaker 2: And then a couple of years ago I went to
Speaker 2: Rwanda and we treked with gorillas, and we saw the
Speaker 2: little baby gorillas who were just playful and silly, and
Speaker 2: the sound of their laugh and and just what they
Speaker 2: were like, and you just start to recognize you need.
Speaker 2: This is why what you just said earlier, you mentioned
Speaker 2: it passively, but observing nature is such a beautiful way
Speaker 2: of understanding ourselves. And again going back to your earliest point,
Speaker 2: our disconnection from each other in nature means we're only
Speaker 2: seeing systems and machines and the way systems and machines work,
Speaker 2: and now our expectation of our mind to work the
Speaker 2: same way. I want to turn my mind off and
Speaker 2: I want to turn my mind on, because we've seen
Speaker 2: the system of on and off on a light switch,
Speaker 2: to a phone, to a tablet for so many years
Speaker 2: now that we've lost the idea of wait a minute,
Speaker 2: the sun sets and the sun rises, but it doesn't
Speaker 2: sun off and sun on, and we've lost that concept
Speaker 2: of there is no instant on and off, and there
Speaker 2: is no instant switch there is only nature doing its
Speaker 2: cycle and its phases and its rituals, almost.
Speaker 1: To pick up on the instant part of it, you know.
Speaker 1: It kind of takes me back to the first question
Speaker 1: you asked around stress, and we talked about some of
Speaker 1: the contributors. I think one of the contributors is that
Speaker 1: we live in a world that doesn't have enough friction.
Speaker 1: That we've created a world for young people. And to me,
Speaker 1: you're a young person, but because I'm in my fifties
Speaker 1: and you're in your thirties, but I have a nine
Speaker 1: year old who's a much younger person, and we you know,
Speaker 1: there's a way that older people can blame younger people
Speaker 1: for their oh this generation or kids today or whatever.
Speaker 1: But this is a world we've created for them where
Speaker 1: there isn't a lot of friction. You can get everything
Speaker 1: you want on demand. And as a consequence, people are
Speaker 1: intolerant of discomfort, and that is creating a lot of
Speaker 1: anxiety because life is uncomfortable and there are going to
Speaker 1: be stressful and scary situations and your ability to thrive
Speaker 1: is going to be directly correlated to your ability to
Speaker 1: handle this. And if we don't get comfortable with discomfort,
Speaker 1: we're going to suffer, and.
Speaker 3: There are ways to work with this.
Speaker 1: One of them is this thing that it's a psychological
Speaker 1: term opposite action, you know, when you I'll give you
Speaker 1: an example.
Speaker 3: I have intense claustrophobia.
Speaker 1: When your colleague Jordan came to pick me up in
Speaker 1: the lobby of the hotel in which we're doing this
Speaker 1: interview and take me up the elevator, I said I
Speaker 1: have to ride alone because I didn't want to have
Speaker 1: a panic attack in front of her.
Speaker 3: But I got on the elevator. I didn't want to.
Speaker 1: I thought about walking thirty flights and I've done that before.
Speaker 2: Wow. Sorry, I feel terrible now.
Speaker 3: I wish I have set up dude.
Speaker 1: No, but the lesson here is that I need to
Speaker 1: get on elevators regularly. That's the way out of this.
Speaker 1: It's opposite action. I need to do the thing i'm
Speaker 1: scared of carefully. I don't want to give myself a
Speaker 1: panic attack. Although there are some people who argue that
Speaker 1: that is a way through this, but for me, I
Speaker 1: just kind of gently exposed myself to the stuff I'm
Speaker 1: afraid of, and so I actually look I relished the
Speaker 1: opportunity to get on an elevator or to take a
Speaker 1: subway ride. I just have to do it in the
Speaker 1: right circumstances. So I didn't inflict it upon Jordan. I
Speaker 1: just took a different elevator. And I actually think this
Speaker 1: is one of the this is one of the ways out,
Speaker 1: one of the ways out of the epidemic of stress
Speaker 1: and anxiety that we began this conversation with, which is
Speaker 1: to whatever way in your own life, to just dose
Speaker 1: yourself carefully and gently, with some discomfort. To take the
Speaker 1: opposite action, do the opposite of what you want to do,
Speaker 1: which may be to you know, hide from the discomfort,
Speaker 1: Go to that party, accept the invitation, ask that person
Speaker 1: out for a cup of coffee, pressed like on that
Speaker 1: Instagram post. You know, little steps like that will will
Speaker 1: equip you and arm you to move through a world
Speaker 1: that is largely out of your control.
Speaker 2: Done. Thank you so much. It's been such a joy
Speaker 2: talking to you today, and I've really, I've really enjoyed
Speaker 2: how you know, this conversation tended to the benefits of
Speaker 2: meditation without listing the benefits of meditation, but the u
Speaker 2: but the acceptance of the benefits being a deeper awareness
Speaker 2: of who we are. We need to improve and doing
Speaker 2: that with love, with kindness, with gentleness, as opposed to hate,
Speaker 2: pressure and stress that we often place on ourselves. But
Speaker 2: we end every episode with a final five, and these
Speaker 2: final five have to be answered in one word to
Speaker 2: one sentence maximum each and so Dan, these are your
Speaker 2: final five. The first question is what is the best
Speaker 2: advice about mindfulness that you've ever heard or received?
Speaker 3: Just start again?
Speaker 2: I like that, Yeah, beautiful. What is The second question
Speaker 2: is what is the worst advice about mindfulness or meditation
Speaker 2: that you've ever heard or received?
Speaker 3: Clear your mind.
Speaker 2: It's so bad. It's so bad. It's so bad, and
Speaker 2: it was almost marketed like that for a long time. Yes,
Speaker 2: for a long long time. Yeah. Question number three, how
Speaker 2: would you define your current purpose?
Speaker 3: Make awesome shit that helps people do their lives better?
Speaker 2: I love that? Question Number four a thought that you'd
Speaker 2: like to repeat more often?
Speaker 1: Well, I got a tattoo recently. It's an acronym ftboa B.
Speaker 1: It's way off brand for me in terms of like,
Speaker 1: it's cheesier than I like to be, but it stands.
Speaker 1: It's a Buddhist phrase for the benefit of all beings.
Speaker 1: And we talked about my anger habit. But one of
Speaker 1: my other habits that I also mentioned that I don't
Speaker 1: like is a kind of selfishness or greed, and so
Speaker 1: I really try to remind myself as much as possible, like, no,
Speaker 1: I'm answering this in more than a word.
Speaker 2: No, it's brilliant, it's great on.
Speaker 1: But I try to remind myself, Yeah, this is for
Speaker 1: the benefit of all beings and the a the all
Speaker 1: I'm included in that.
Speaker 3: So it's not like I can't make a living or whatever.
Speaker 1: But having it right here next to my watch, I'm
Speaker 1: trying to put that thought in my head more frequently.
Speaker 2: I love that. That's a beautiful answer. Fifth and final question,
Speaker 2: which we asked every guest has ever been on the show.
Speaker 2: If you could create one law that everyone in the
Speaker 2: world had to follow, what would it be?
Speaker 3: How long do most people pause? Because I'm thinking.
Speaker 2: People take forever.
Speaker 3: And that's why you picked up the book. You're like,
Speaker 3: you read a chat.
Speaker 2: We either we either allow we either allow people to
Speaker 2: edit it out or they can have their thinking time
Speaker 2: in the edit whatever they prefer.
Speaker 3: Okay, law, take your time.
Speaker 2: It's a fun question. So I prefer it when people think.
Speaker 1: About it and I don't think this is something that
Speaker 1: you can legislate, so I wouldn't want to force it,
Speaker 1: but it would be like a strong suggestion which is
Speaker 1: around kindness, which is that maybe I'll use this phrase
Speaker 1: from the Dala Lama that I like better than kindness
Speaker 1: because kindness can sound very planned.
Speaker 3: Why selfishness?
Speaker 1: That if you want to do selfishness correctly, you will
Speaker 1: be thinking about the benefit of all beings to the
Speaker 1: best of your ability, because.
Speaker 3: That is how you will get happier.
Speaker 1: And if we lived our lives, all of us with
Speaker 1: that as a north star, which again I don't know
Speaker 1: if I could make it a law, but I could
Speaker 1: make it a strongly held policy. I think that would
Speaker 1: change a lot. I think that would change I'm not
Speaker 1: a utopian. I don't believe that we can create a
Speaker 1: perfect world, but I think that we can create a
Speaker 1: much better world if we play to people's self interest
Speaker 1: in a way that really is in their self interest
Speaker 1: instead of the fleeting dopamine hits that we're selling people on.
Speaker 1: Now that actually, your abiding happiness is going to be
Speaker 1: found in.
Speaker 3: Kindness. And I wish there was a less cheesy way
Speaker 3: to say that.
Speaker 2: That's a great answer.
Speaker 3: More more than a sentence.
Speaker 2: It's perfect. It was perfect. The tenth anniversary edition of
Speaker 2: Dan's book Ten Percent Happy, How I tend the voice
Speaker 2: in my head? Would you stressed? Without losing my edge?
Speaker 2: And found self help that actually works a true story
Speaker 2: is available right now, of course with the tenth anniversary edition.
Speaker 2: That's amazing. Congratulations, that's pretty so much.
Speaker 3: For Rayer now when the book came out, and.
Speaker 2: Of course subscribe to Dan's podcast Ten Percent Happier as well. Dan,
Speaker 2: thank you so much for coming onto on purpose. This
Speaker 2: was such a refreshing and really really beautiful organic conversation.
Speaker 2: And I appreciate you going there with me because that's
Speaker 2: kind of the space I've been in on the show
Speaker 2: recently of wanting to get lost with someone.
Speaker 3: Right just to go into a flow.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's so interesting to meet you because I mean,
Speaker 1: this is a long way of saying thank you. It's
Speaker 1: just so interesting to meet you because I've seen you
Speaker 1: from Afar for a million years and then just to
Speaker 1: like walk into this hotel room.
Speaker 3: You're like this dude who just shows up. Hey, how
Speaker 3: you doing? Like you're way more casual.
Speaker 1: And down to earth than I might have expected, and
Speaker 1: so it's really fun to like put an actual person
Speaker 1: to me there.
Speaker 2: That's very sweet. I really appreciate that. Thank you so much.
Speaker 2: And maybe we're doing a terrible job at the brand
Speaker 2: new That's not how I come.
Speaker 3: Across, No, it's it's my own paranoia.
Speaker 2: It's like, I'm like, God, the guys are going to
Speaker 2: get it together. No, I really appreciate that. Thank you
Speaker 2: so much.
Speaker 1: That's usually when you when I I I meet a
Speaker 1: I've met a lot of well known people in my
Speaker 1: job as a journalist because I have my job to
Speaker 1: interview them, and it's rare that I like people more
Speaker 1: after meeting them based on their public persona.
Speaker 3: And so that's what I was trying.
Speaker 2: To thank you. That's very kind of that's very kind.
Speaker 2: It's that's I really appreciate that thank you. I received
Speaker 2: that deeply, and I think it's really hard. I've I've
Speaker 2: definitely struggled with this just I can only be fully
Speaker 2: myself with someone I'm in person with. It's it's impossible
Speaker 2: to I find it impossible to be your whole self
Speaker 2: on a thirty second video or you know, if someone
Speaker 2: listens to the podcast, I feel they know me because
Speaker 2: they're hearing, you know, full conversations of an hour each
Speaker 2: week so or every day. Some people listen to it
Speaker 2: like IVO. If someone listens to the podcast, they have
Speaker 2: a deep, deep understanding of Meal if they've read the books.
Speaker 2: But if someone's just seeing something on social media, they
Speaker 2: have such a limited view. And it's so hard to
Speaker 2: portray yourself in that way or in your true self.
Speaker 2: So I appreciate it. Thank you so much, Thank you Dan,
Speaker 2: thanks for having me. It's been a real treat. Thank
Speaker 2: you so much. Thank you so much for listening to
Speaker 2: this conversation. If you enjoyed it, you'll love my chat
Speaker 2: with Adam Grant on why discomfort is the key to
Speaker 2: growth and the strategies for unlocking your hidden potential. If
Speaker 2: you know you want to be more and achieve more
Speaker 2: this year, go check it out right now.
Speaker 1: You set a goal today, you achieve it in six months,
Speaker 1: and then by the time it happens, it's almost a relief.
Speaker 3: There's no sense of meaning and purpose.
Speaker 1: You sort of expected it, and you would have been
Speaker 1: disappointed if it didn't happen.