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Speaker 1: Stress is the difference between the things on your to

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Speaker 1: do list and your capacity to handle that to do list.

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Speaker 1: Anxiety is fretfully projecting and fearing that bad things are

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Speaker 1: going to happen. Both things are probably at the worst

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Speaker 1: point they've ever been since we started keeping those records.

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Speaker 2: I'm our ABC News anchor, author of ten Percent Happier.

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Speaker 3: Mister Dan Harris.

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Speaker 1: People who live the longest, have strong relationships. Dose yourself

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Speaker 1: with some discomfort, go to that party. Accept the invitation.

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Speaker 3: The Number one Health and Well Inness Podcast.

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Speaker 2: Jay Shetty, Jay Sheddy See One Only Ja Shetty, Dan Harris,

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Speaker 2: Welcome to On Purpose. It's so great to finally have

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Speaker 2: you here. I feel like this has been years in

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Speaker 2: the making. I know my audience has wanted to hear

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Speaker 2: from you, my community has asked for us to get together.

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Speaker 2: I've seen so many comments tagging you saying you have

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Speaker 2: to have done on the show, and so this is

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Speaker 2: really exciting for me and I want to thank you

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Speaker 2: for taking out the time and and being here with us.

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Speaker 3: Thanks for having me.

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Speaker 1: It's a little embarrassing because they might have tagged me

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Speaker 1: in the comments, but I wouldn't have seen it because

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Speaker 1: I wasn't on social media until a few months ago,

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Speaker 1: and well I had an Instagram, but I didn't really

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Speaker 1: post to it much. And so about six months ago

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Speaker 1: I started putting some videos up and I was looking

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Speaker 1: at it one day and I saw that I had

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Speaker 1: a message from you, but it was from twenty twenty. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so I answered it, And that's why we're.

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Speaker 2: Here, absolutely, and I love it. Yeah, I reached out. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: I'm glad, glad you're Yeah, I reached out twenty twenty

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Speaker 2: and who's probably aware of your work even before that.

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Speaker 2: And I feel like there's so many similarities and differences

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Speaker 2: that we can explore today in our personal journeys. But

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Speaker 2: let's dive straight in. I think I'm at this point

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Speaker 2: in time. It feels like we've talked about this topic

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Speaker 2: for a long time, but it still feels like we

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Speaker 2: have a slightly unhealthy relationship with it and somewhat a

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Speaker 2: subconscious relationship with it. And I'm talking about stress, and

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Speaker 2: it seems that YEurope on your people's stress increases, people's

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Speaker 2: variety of causes of stress increase. Even after the pandemic,

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Speaker 2: we saw a different type of stress that we experienced.

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Speaker 2: I wanted to get your thesis on how you feel

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Speaker 2: about the state of stress at the moment.

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Speaker 1: It's not good. I recently learned this is embarrassing that

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Speaker 1: I recently learned this. The difference, the specific difference between

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Speaker 1: stress and anxiety. Hopefully I don't mangle this, but it's

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Speaker 1: something like stress is the difference between the things on

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Speaker 1: your to do list and your capacity to handle that

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Speaker 1: to do list, the difference between the demands on you

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Speaker 1: and your ability to meet those demands. And anxiety is

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Speaker 1: a little bit more fretfully projecting forward into the future

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Speaker 1: and fearing that bad things are going to happen. And

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Speaker 1: so I think actually both things are probably at the

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Speaker 1: worst point they've ever been since we started keeping those records.

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Speaker 1: So from what I can take, anxiety, depression, suicide, addiction,

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Speaker 1: and loneliness are, according to the numbers I've seen, at

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Speaker 1: unprecedented levels. Now, we haven't been keeping these statistics for

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Speaker 1: that long, so I suspect when we were on the

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Speaker 1: edge of World War two, things were worse. But in

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Speaker 1: the modern era, things have not been worse from what

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Speaker 1: we can tell, and I think a huge contributor to

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Speaker 1: that is the pandemic that we just lived through I

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Speaker 1: sometimes describe it as a global, unregulated experiment into what

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Speaker 1: would happen when you deny people social connection and put

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Speaker 1: people in a state of deep uncertainty about the future.

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Speaker 1: And add into that political polarization the noxious impacts of

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Speaker 1: social media, which we were just talking about, war, climate change,

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Speaker 1: and you have a very tough situation for individual minds.

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Speaker 2: Which one's been the one that you feel you've heard

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Speaker 2: about the most from the people that follow your podcasts,

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Speaker 2: that have read your books, Like, what's the stress that

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Speaker 2: you think is weighing them down the most.

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Speaker 1: I'm projecting a little bit here and guessing, but I

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Speaker 1: sometimes think there's a difference between what people perceive to

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Speaker 1: be the source of their stress or anxiety and what

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Speaker 1: actually is driving it. So we might fasten on to

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Speaker 1: things that are real for sure. I mean like work

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Speaker 1: stress economics, So there can be stress about the state

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Speaker 1: of your job, and then economic stress about the larger

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Speaker 1: state of the economy. There's increasing stress around inequality and bigotry,

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Speaker 1: increasing awareness of it. So the question is are those

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Speaker 1: the approximate causes for your stress or could there be

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Speaker 1: subterranean contributors that you might not be aware of? So

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Speaker 1: I think today's media environment, particularly social media, and I'm

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Speaker 1: not anti social media.

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Speaker 3: We just talked about the fact that I recently went.

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Speaker 1: On it, but I think there are aspects of social

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Speaker 1: media we need to be aware of, and too much

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Speaker 1: comparing yourself to other people is as you've talked about,

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Speaker 1: the source, it's a really good source of unhappiness and stress.

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Speaker 1: I think also, if you're spending too much time staring

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Speaker 1: at a screen, two things going to happen. One, you

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Speaker 1: can get a distorted view of the state of the

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Speaker 1: world because the algorithms feed off of conflict and anger

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Speaker 1: and outrage. They feed our anxiety. And then the other

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Speaker 1: thing is the more you're staring at the screen, the

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Speaker 1: less time you're spending connecting to actual human beings. So

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Speaker 1: I think this is the deepest contributor we are, and

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Speaker 1: this is to state the obvious social animals. You hear

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Speaker 1: this in every Ted talk. I think I said it

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Speaker 1: in my own Ted talk. So I'm like, deeply unoriginal here.

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Speaker 1: We are social animals. We're designed to interact with other

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Speaker 1: human beings, and yet everything about modern life militates against

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Speaker 1: this basic obvious fact. Everything drives us into our own

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Speaker 1: information silos, into curating our own resumes and working on

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Speaker 1: our own little homes and all that can be beautiful,

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Speaker 1: but when you overlook what we need, that is going

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Speaker 1: to create stress and anxiety. And you might think it

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Speaker 1: is observable things out in the world, and it probably

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Speaker 1: is those things too, But I just wonder from many

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Speaker 1: people whether it's this deeper contributor that they're not looking at.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm so glad you've just made some two really

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Speaker 2: good distinctions there. I love the way you are sharing

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Speaker 2: the research around the difference between anxiety and stress, and

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Speaker 2: going back to that for a second, that example you

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Speaker 2: gave of having your to do list and feeling like

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Speaker 2: you don't have the capacity, It sounds like what you're

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Speaker 2: sharing is that there's a capacity challenge and then also

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Speaker 2: a control challenge, and when you're naming all those things

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Speaker 2: external to us, there's a feeling of I can't control

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Speaker 2: any of those things. All of those things are uncertain,

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Speaker 2: and thereforem dealing with constant states of change, and that

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Speaker 2: in effect creates a sense of stress and to some degree,

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Speaker 2: if I'm forward projecting, then anxiety as well. When I

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Speaker 2: think about that, and I love what you just said

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Speaker 2: about actually getting to the root of it, because I

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Speaker 2: think you're spot on that we often discover a new symptom,

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Speaker 2: and there will always be a new thing we'll discover

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Speaker 2: every day that causes or triggers stress, because there'll be

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Speaker 2: a new change, a new uncertainty, and a new thing

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Speaker 2: we can't control. But at the core of it, you've

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Speaker 2: highlighted this need for connection and this need for belonging,

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Speaker 2: and this need for human touch, both physical and mental

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Speaker 2: and emotional, that we seem to be feeling further and

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Speaker 2: further away from. I was talking about this with my

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Speaker 2: best friend today, who I speak to probably like three

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Speaker 2: or four times a week, and it's the person I

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Speaker 2: probably speak to the most in the entire world. And

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Speaker 2: he was my best man at my wedding. He introduced

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Speaker 2: me to spirituality, so we have a long history of

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Speaker 2: eighteen years of a friendship. So he knows me very

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Speaker 2: well and we still talk three or four times a week.

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Speaker 2: He lives in London, I live in la and we

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Speaker 2: still find the time to connect, and that's mainly because

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Speaker 2: he always makes time and he's very kind. And I

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Speaker 2: often think about it in that I don't know how

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Speaker 2: I would navigate life without that friendship because of having

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Speaker 2: someone who understands me deeply, someone who allows me to

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Speaker 2: be seen, someone who allows me to be flawed and

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Speaker 2: imperfect yet allows me to process. All of that is

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Speaker 2: so profoundly needed, but it required certain deposits that had

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Speaker 2: to happen eighteen years ago in order to get there.

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Speaker 2: Do you find human connection is easier with people you've

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Speaker 2: known for a long time, or have you found it

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Speaker 2: to be building new relationships and new friendships? What have

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Speaker 2: been the pros and cons of the ways you've navigated

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Speaker 2: both of those.

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Speaker 1: One of the things that I really try to do

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Speaker 1: in my work is move away from abstractions or cliches

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Speaker 1: or big ideas and get really practical about how you

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Speaker 1: can actually act on these things. Because it's easy to

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Speaker 1: scroll on Instagram or read a book or hear a

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Speaker 1: Ted talk and you hear the these inspirational notions like

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Speaker 1: we're built for connection and we need belonging and you

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Speaker 1: need to invest in relationships, and then what do you

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Speaker 1: do about it? And so I think about that a lot,

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Speaker 1: and I think you just gave us an example. You

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Speaker 1: made a deep friendship eighteen years ago. But it's not

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Speaker 1: enough to just have a connection with somebody, you need

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Speaker 1: to invest in it over and over and over again.

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Speaker 1: That's true for any level of deep relationship. It's true,

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Speaker 1: I would imagine with your wife. It's I mean, you've

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Speaker 1: written a whole book about this, So I'm not talking

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Speaker 1: to you like you don't know what you're talking about.

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Speaker 1: But I just think you're giving a great, concrete example

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Speaker 1: of one little thing you can do, which is figure

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Speaker 1: out who you like and then make an investment in

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Speaker 1: that person and hopefully a few other people consistently over time,

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Speaker 1: because the rewards are huge and this isn't just like

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Speaker 1: a nice to have. I know you're familiar with this research,

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Speaker 1: but the study that comes up for me all the

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Speaker 1: time is this study that was done that's still ongoing

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Speaker 1: at Harvard University. It's overseen now by Robert Waldinger, and

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Speaker 1: the idea is that they've been following several generations of

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Speaker 1: people who live in the Boston area to see what

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Speaker 1: contributes to a long life, a longevity, health, happiness. And

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Speaker 1: what comes screaming out of eighty ninety years of data

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Speaker 1: is that the people who live the longest have strong relationships,

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Speaker 1: and what's the mechanism for that stress is what kills us.

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Speaker 1: You started this whole conversation with the idea of stress.

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Speaker 1: Stress is what kills us most of the time, and

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Speaker 1: the best way to reduce stress is to have positive relationships.

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Speaker 1: Waldinger has this great expression, never worry alone. And that's

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Speaker 1: what you were doing three times a week with your buddy.

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Speaker 1: And there are obviously things you can talk to your

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Speaker 1: wife about, of course, but the whole and again, again,

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Speaker 1: you know all of this, but can't You can't your

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Speaker 1: wife can't be the alpha and Omega, your wife can't

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Speaker 1: be everything to you. And again there's data to support

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Speaker 1: this contention too that the strongest marriages or romantic relationships,

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Speaker 1: in those relationships, the participants have other relationships that support it.

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Speaker 1: You know that you're getting certain needs filled through your

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Speaker 1: best friend. And yeah, so I just go back to

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Speaker 1: what you said that that seems to be a direction

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Speaker 1: that people can move in when they're trying to think

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Speaker 1: about how to operationalize this stuff in their own life.

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Speaker 2: Yeah no, and I'm glad that you brought it to

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Speaker 2: this And I genuinely couldn't agree with you more. And

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Speaker 2: that's why I've always wanted to talk to you. Is

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Speaker 2: this idea of well, how do we actually do that?

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Speaker 2: Because these big ideas and big concepts often, as you said,

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Speaker 2: I give you that short term inspiration, but then it

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Speaker 2: doesn't translate into any discipline or habit or creation of

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Speaker 2: a routine or rhythm that allows us to repeat it

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Speaker 2: and make it real. And so let's kind of sewn

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Speaker 2: in on that for some of the points you made.

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Speaker 2: One of the things you talked about, of course, is

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Speaker 2: social media, and the truth is that all of us are,

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Speaker 2: in some way, shape or form addicted to this. It's

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Speaker 2: designed to make us addicted. It's not that we're addicted

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Speaker 2: because we have some flaw or some weakness, or because

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Speaker 2: we're not, you know, because we're alone. I think a

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Speaker 2: lot of us share this. I've found myself doomed scrolling.

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Speaker 2: I've found myself wasting hours and hours on social media,

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Speaker 2: feeling like I didn't achieve anything or gain anything from it.

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Speaker 2: So no one's immune to this. I don't think there's

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Speaker 2: a select few people who've beaten it. I think it's

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Speaker 2: it's consumed all of us. What have been the practical

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Speaker 2: steps that you maybe have put in place for yourself,

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Speaker 2: people that you known in your life that you think

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Speaker 2: have actually helped people develop a healthy relationship, because I

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Speaker 2: think it's also not just like saying, well, just don't

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Speaker 2: be on your phone, which is often again one of

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Speaker 2: these big ideas that's portrayed, which is like, well just

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Speaker 2: turn it off or you know, don't be on it,

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Speaker 2: and we know that that's not sustainable either, like we're

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Speaker 2: both carrying our phones to this.

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Speaker 1: Yes, first of all, you said this thing about how

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Speaker 1: you have struggled with social media. I just want to

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Speaker 1: add that I have too. I mean I just started,

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Speaker 1: as we've discussed, and I can't tell you many times

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Speaker 1: I've gotten sucked into either scrolling and looking at things

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Speaker 1: that I mean, you know, I could be like talking

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Speaker 1: to my child during that time, or and this is

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Speaker 1: even more embarrassing, you know, compulsively checking back to see

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Speaker 1: how a specific video is performing. And and so yeah,

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Speaker 1: I don't come to this conversation with any superiority. I

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Speaker 1: also think and I will get to some things that

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Speaker 1: have been useful for me. But I also want to

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Speaker 1: say that I'm not against social media. I think there

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Speaker 1: are beautiful aspects to it. I think they are also

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Speaker 1: very difficult aspects, and we can talk about that if

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Speaker 1: you want, but it is popular not only for the

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Speaker 1: negative aspects for it, and I think it's you know,

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Speaker 1: you can get some degree of pleasure through social media,

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Speaker 1: for sure. I think it's true just for any dopamine

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Speaker 1: hit in our life. You can get addicted to anything

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Speaker 1: that is the source of fleeting pleasure, from food to cocaine,

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Speaker 1: to alcohol, to gambling to shopping. And there's healthy use,

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Speaker 1: healthy involvement in all of these activities, and then unhealthy

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Speaker 1: And it really just depends on the circumstances of your

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Speaker 1: own brain, your own life, and it's a thing everybody

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Speaker 1: has to work on for themselves. As it pertains to

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Speaker 1: practical things that work for me with technology addiction. One

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Speaker 1: is just being pretty disciplined about putting it away at

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Speaker 1: a Usually at the end of the day, I try

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Speaker 1: to put it away and have a proper evening with

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Speaker 1: my family. Don't always succeed at that, but I notice

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Speaker 1: when I do it, I feel better. And that leads

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Speaker 1: to the second piece of advice, which is, as you know,

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Speaker 1: I'm a big advocate of meditation, as are you, and

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Speaker 1: I think the self awareness that can be generated through

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Speaker 1: contemplative exercises like meditation can help wake you up to

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Speaker 1: the fact that you will feel better if you don't

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Speaker 1: get sucked into your phone for you know, prolonged periods

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Speaker 1: of time, and that can the brain is always looking

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Speaker 1: for pleasure, and if you can show the brain that

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Speaker 1: there's what my friend Jeded Brewer calls a bigger, better offer,

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Speaker 1: which is that it will feel better to connect to

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Speaker 1: your family most of the time, because sometimes our families

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Speaker 1: are annoying, But it will feel better to connect to

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Speaker 1: other people, to read a book, to take a walk

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Speaker 1: in nature. Then it will to you know, attach your

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Speaker 1: arm to the iv drip of fomo that that social

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Speaker 1: media can be. And so I think meditation is a

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Speaker 1: great way to do that. The final thing is see

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Speaker 1: if you can ask yourself this question. And I get

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Speaker 1: this from a woman named Catherine Price, who wrote a

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Speaker 1: book that I recommend called How to Break Up with

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Speaker 1: Your Phone. She encourages people to ask themselves to try

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Speaker 1: to get in the habit of asking themselves a very

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Speaker 1: simple question when they're when they find their zombie arm

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Speaker 1: reaching for the phone.

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Speaker 3: What do you need right now?

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Speaker 2: Like?

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Speaker 3: What need are you trying to fulfill when you pick

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Speaker 3: up that phone?

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Speaker 1: For me, it's often because I'm bored, or I'm in

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Speaker 1: an uncomfortable situation, or I'm tired and I don't have

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Speaker 1: the wherewithal to do something, or I'm lonely, or I'm hungry.

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Speaker 1: And actually, if you run that program, you run that

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Speaker 1: algorithm internally for yourself. You know you're only going to

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Speaker 1: remember this ten percent of the time. But if you

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Speaker 1: can remember to do it some percentage of the time

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Speaker 1: and ask yourself, what is it that I'm actually going

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Speaker 1: for here, you might realize, actually the phone is not

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Speaker 1: what I need right now. And for me, I found

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Speaker 1: that really helpful. It doesn't work all the time, but

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Speaker 1: it helps.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely, I like that idea of how we're almost

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Speaker 2: having to sell to our brain, Like the idea of

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Speaker 2: selling this you call it the great What was it?

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Speaker 2: The great?

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Speaker 1: It's not my phrase, but it's from this guy, doctor

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Speaker 1: Jed Brewer, and he's written some books about anxiety, and

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Speaker 1: it's called the bigger, better offer.

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Speaker 2: The bigger better office. Sorry, yes, the bigger better offer. Like,

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Speaker 2: I love that idea of having to sell that idea,

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Speaker 2: pledge that idea, propose that idea to the brain. And

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Speaker 2: I definitely see that as valuable. And I've found that

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Speaker 2: with the way that that worked for me was having

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Speaker 2: to remind myself after I made the right decision. So

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Speaker 2: what I mean by that is, if I'm going to

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Speaker 2: reach for my phone right now, and I have the

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Speaker 2: courage enough to not reach for it, but I end

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Speaker 2: up spending time with my family as the bigger better offer. Now,

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Speaker 2: after I've spent time with my family and I've enjoyed

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Speaker 2: it this time, they're not annoying, Then after I do that,

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Speaker 2: I need to deeply code that into my memory, like

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Speaker 2: I need to make a feel out of it, like

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Speaker 2: I need to tell my friend about it. I need

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Speaker 2: to journal about it. I need to record it, I

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Speaker 2: need to take a picture of whatever it is. Because

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Speaker 2: what I found is that the mind needs to be

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Speaker 2: reminded again when I reach for the phone that the bigger,

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Speaker 2: better offer will win, but that memory he doesn't get

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Speaker 2: stored deep enough for us to be able to rediscover

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Speaker 2: it when we most need it. Yes, and so that's

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Speaker 2: definitely helped. And I loved what you said a couple

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Speaker 2: of seconds ago about being able to switch it off.

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Speaker 2: I I fail at this all the time, but I've

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Speaker 2: at least set the rules, and I think that's what

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Speaker 2: we have to do with this, because it's it is hard.

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Speaker 2: But a few years ago I set no technology times

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Speaker 2: and no technology zones in my home. So I almost

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Speaker 2: envisioned a no phone sign in the bedroom and at

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Speaker 2: the dining table. And at one point I used to

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Speaker 2: envision like lasers around the room. And second, if I

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Speaker 2: walked past him with my phone, then you know whatever

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Speaker 2: the floor is laughter, Yeah, like mission impossible. I just

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Speaker 2: to give that feeling. And yes, of course, have I

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Speaker 2: walked through a laser with my phone. Of course I have.

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Speaker 2: But I like the idea of knowing that. Look, there

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Speaker 2: are certain rooms in my home where technology is not

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Speaker 2: the space. So actually, if I want to use my phone,

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Speaker 2: I have to leave that room to use it. And

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Speaker 2: like you're saying about leaving your phone in another room

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Speaker 2: or whatever it may be, I think is really powerful.

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Speaker 2: One thing you brought up, which I actually think is

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Speaker 2: that the crux of so much of this, And you

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Speaker 2: mentioned the word you've been embarrassed sometimes in your social

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Speaker 2: media usage, and I find that to actually be one

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Speaker 2: of the deepest routes of the challenges we have with

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Speaker 2: change and habit or even with meditation. Like I think

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Speaker 2: as you know you've been teaching meditation for years, as

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Speaker 2: if I and when I first started meditating, and even

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Speaker 2: now when my attention is not as present as it

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Speaker 2: can be, or I'm not as focused or I'm distracted,

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Speaker 2: which still happens today after all these years of meditating,

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Speaker 2: it's so easy to feel embarrassed or ashamed or guilty,

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Speaker 2: and we can often start to develop it in a

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Speaker 2: critic that can say some of the most hurtful things,

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Speaker 2: like I'll often say to myself like, come on, man,

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Speaker 2: you've been meditating for eighteen years, now, how are you distracted?

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Speaker 2: Or you know you've been you know by now you

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Speaker 2: should have been an expert because you're surrounded by so

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Speaker 2: many experts, or what's wrong with you? Like, oh, how

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Speaker 2: can you teach meditation if you can't meditate deeply like

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Speaker 2: you know, whatever it may be. And it's so easy

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Speaker 2: to get into that space. And one thing that I

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Speaker 2: came across recently for myself was recognizing that you can't

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Speaker 2: hate yourself into change, like you can't guilt yourself into growth.

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Speaker 2: You can't make yourself feel so guilty that you'll suddenly

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Speaker 2: achieve your goal. There almost needs to be grace there

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Speaker 2: needs to be kindness. There needs to be a safe

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Speaker 2: space for you to have imperfections. So I wanted to

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Speaker 2: ask you, like, what have you done with that emotion

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Speaker 2: of feeling embarrassed, because I actually think meditation is powerful

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Speaker 2: for helping us overcome embarrassment. But I'd love to approach

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Speaker 2: that with you.

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Speaker 1: Well, I've had the same thoughts of you know, I

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Speaker 1: don't know if you've experienced this, but you know, once

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Speaker 1: you step out into the world as like something approaching

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Speaker 1: a self help person, as soon as you're an asshole,

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Speaker 1: you tell yourself a story about how like you're a

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Speaker 1: total fraud, like the first day you screw up, you

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Speaker 1: know you you're You're like, all right, well I got

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Speaker 1: to close this whole business.

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Speaker 2: I can relate to that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm sure, I mean I I and I think

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Speaker 1: it goes to something really important, which is personal growth,

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Speaker 1: spiritual development, whatever you want to call it.

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Speaker 3: Is hard and messy and perfection is not on offer.

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Speaker 1: And I think just knowing that and even hearing Jay

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Speaker 1: Shetty talk about making mistakes and getting his shins cut

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Speaker 1: off by a laser as he walks into the bedroom

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Speaker 1: with his phone is useful because people need to know.

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Speaker 1: It's not a straight, unbroken upward trajectory. That's that's not

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Speaker 1: what this is. That's not what this is about. There's

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Speaker 1: a great tweet or I guess we call him X's

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Speaker 1: now or whatever whatever. There was a great X the

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Speaker 1: other day from a zen rochie Roachie Joan Halifax. She's

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Speaker 1: this incredible human being, and she posted a picture that

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Speaker 1: was basically a bunch of squiggly lines just going nowhere,

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Speaker 1: and then she the caption was the path. That's the

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Speaker 1: thing we are. This is messy. We are messy animals

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Speaker 1: and that's okay. And what I think is important to

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Speaker 1: know is that growth is possible, but it is impossible

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Speaker 1: without making a bunch of mistakes. And if you can

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Speaker 1: get that into your head, you're better off. So how

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Speaker 1: do you get that into your head? There's a bunch

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Speaker 1: of research that I've become increasingly interested in about the

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Speaker 1: possibility of reprogramming your inner dialogue. We most of us

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Speaker 1: have really nasty inner weather.

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Speaker 2: You know.

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Speaker 1: I sometimes joke that if anybody said to me the

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Speaker 1: types of shit that I say to myself, I would

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Speaker 1: be punching that person in the face. And yet I

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Speaker 1: talk to myself in a quite a scathing, venomous way.

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Speaker 1: I know this is not unusual, so what can we

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Speaker 1: do about it? Well, you can get into the habit

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Speaker 1: you can develop. And again this is a an evidence

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Speaker 1: backed assertion. I'm not making just making this up, nor

435
00:23:03,800 --> 00:23:06,159
Speaker 1: is it an original observation. But what I've learned is

436
00:23:06,160 --> 00:23:08,560
Speaker 1: that you can get into the habit of talking to

437
00:23:08,600 --> 00:23:11,720
Speaker 1: yourself the way you would talk to a friend. And

438
00:23:11,760 --> 00:23:14,919
Speaker 1: there are some little hacks that make this easier. One

439
00:23:15,000 --> 00:23:20,600
Speaker 1: of them is to actually refer to yourself by your name. So, Jay,

440
00:23:20,760 --> 00:23:25,840
Speaker 1: I know you just got distracted in meditation, but dude,

441
00:23:25,920 --> 00:23:29,120
Speaker 1: as you know, getting distracted is a part of meditation.

442
00:23:29,480 --> 00:23:30,879
Speaker 3: If it was possible to.

443
00:23:30,760 --> 00:23:35,000
Speaker 1: Clear your mind, then we'd have lots of people walking

444
00:23:35,040 --> 00:23:35,920
Speaker 1: around with no thoughts.

445
00:23:35,920 --> 00:23:37,400
Speaker 3: But that isn't possible.

446
00:23:37,440 --> 00:23:39,399
Speaker 1: What is possible is to focus your mind for a

447
00:23:39,440 --> 00:23:41,480
Speaker 1: few nine a seconds out of time and then start

448
00:23:41,520 --> 00:23:44,560
Speaker 1: again and again and again. And we are very good

449
00:23:44,600 --> 00:23:47,240
Speaker 1: at taking advice, at giving advice to other people, but

450
00:23:47,359 --> 00:23:50,120
Speaker 1: not taking our own advice. And so this technique, which

451
00:23:50,160 --> 00:23:52,880
Speaker 1: is called distance self talk, where you use your own

452
00:23:52,960 --> 00:23:57,320
Speaker 1: name to create some distance, can allow you Jay or

453
00:23:57,520 --> 00:24:01,200
Speaker 1: me Dan to give our tells the advice that we're

454
00:24:01,240 --> 00:24:03,879
Speaker 1: so willing to give other people and then actually to

455
00:24:03,960 --> 00:24:05,480
Speaker 1: hear it, And does that make sense?

456
00:24:06,000 --> 00:24:10,560
Speaker 2: Truly? Absolutely no resates. That resonates so deeply, and I

457
00:24:10,640 --> 00:24:14,320
Speaker 2: actually feel that makes complete sense because even the negative

458
00:24:14,359 --> 00:24:17,119
Speaker 2: of that is true. And so I was reading just

459
00:24:17,560 --> 00:24:21,120
Speaker 2: a couple of weeks ago, maybe around how the two

460
00:24:21,160 --> 00:24:24,760
Speaker 2: ways we talk to ourselves negatively are either I am

461
00:24:24,880 --> 00:24:27,240
Speaker 2: so we say things like I am lazy, or I'm

462
00:24:27,280 --> 00:24:31,479
Speaker 2: so I'm not good enough for I'm the worst, or

463
00:24:31,560 --> 00:24:33,919
Speaker 2: you know, I'm the least intelligent out of all my friends,

464
00:24:34,000 --> 00:24:37,440
Speaker 2: or whatever is right, I am statements. And the other

465
00:24:37,520 --> 00:24:40,480
Speaker 2: one they were saying, which was even worse, was we

466
00:24:40,520 --> 00:24:42,520
Speaker 2: have a voice in our head that sounds like an

467
00:24:42,560 --> 00:24:45,960
Speaker 2: authority figure that says you're the worst or and you

468
00:24:46,080 --> 00:24:49,760
Speaker 2: aren't good enough, or you're behind, or whatever it may be.

469
00:24:49,840 --> 00:24:53,200
Speaker 2: And that almost sounds like there's an external authority, whether

470
00:24:53,240 --> 00:24:55,320
Speaker 2: it could have been a teacher or a parent, a

471
00:24:55,359 --> 00:24:57,320
Speaker 2: family member who may have said that to us, and

472
00:24:57,320 --> 00:25:01,159
Speaker 2: now it's internalized as a negative authority in our minds.

473
00:25:01,320 --> 00:25:03,440
Speaker 2: And so what you're actually saying is the positive authority

474
00:25:03,480 --> 00:25:06,320
Speaker 2: also works that if someone says your name Jay or Dan,

475
00:25:06,680 --> 00:25:09,399
Speaker 2: and then coaches you and guides you through that. Would

476
00:25:09,400 --> 00:25:12,840
Speaker 2: you say that that's a skill that you have harnessed

477
00:25:12,840 --> 00:25:15,280
Speaker 2: and nourished through meditation or do you see that as

478
00:25:15,320 --> 00:25:16,240
Speaker 2: separate to meditation.

479
00:25:16,359 --> 00:25:19,520
Speaker 1: I think it's absolutely complementary. You know, as you know

480
00:25:19,560 --> 00:25:22,119
Speaker 1: in meditation you are. One of the benefits is that

481
00:25:22,160 --> 00:25:25,200
Speaker 1: you're more self aware. You're more aware of all of

482
00:25:25,280 --> 00:25:29,240
Speaker 1: these wild thoughts careening through your head, and so it's

483
00:25:29,280 --> 00:25:31,560
Speaker 1: easier to wake up now. I mean, I get lost

484
00:25:31,600 --> 00:25:37,400
Speaker 1: in you know, homicidal fantasies and you know, on speakable fantasy,

485
00:25:37,440 --> 00:25:41,440
Speaker 1: other kinds of fantasies. That's just the mind. But I'm

486
00:25:41,520 --> 00:25:44,359
Speaker 1: more likely now to have some self awareness. I mean

487
00:25:44,359 --> 00:25:46,520
Speaker 1: another word for that is mindfulness, to be able to

488
00:25:46,560 --> 00:25:49,679
Speaker 1: see what's happening between my ears, behind my eyes without

489
00:25:49,760 --> 00:25:51,400
Speaker 1: necessarily being caught.

490
00:25:51,240 --> 00:25:51,600
Speaker 3: Up in it.

491
00:25:51,920 --> 00:25:54,439
Speaker 1: And so the sooner I can wake up to the

492
00:25:54,440 --> 00:25:56,919
Speaker 1: fact that I'm in the middle of a jag of

493
00:25:57,119 --> 00:26:01,160
Speaker 1: self judgment, then I can bring in these tools. Oh yeah,

494
00:26:01,200 --> 00:26:02,480
Speaker 1: you know what I need to do right now is

495
00:26:03,119 --> 00:26:06,800
Speaker 1: have a talk between the sane part of myself and

496
00:26:06,840 --> 00:26:09,960
Speaker 1: the insane part of myself. And as you said before,

497
00:26:09,960 --> 00:26:15,120
Speaker 1: the the inner critic comes to the ball masquerading is wisdom,

498
00:26:15,520 --> 00:26:22,120
Speaker 1: but it's not wisdom. It's it's it is your ancient fears,

499
00:26:23,119 --> 00:26:27,439
Speaker 1: and it is the dysfunction of the larger culture. So

500
00:26:27,800 --> 00:26:30,080
Speaker 1: you might be telling yourself you need to look better. Well,

501
00:26:30,080 --> 00:26:33,720
Speaker 1: that's not your voice. That is as to invoke another

502
00:26:33,760 --> 00:26:39,040
Speaker 1: amazing person, Sonya Renee or one of my Sonya Renee Taylor,

503
00:26:39,080 --> 00:26:41,679
Speaker 1: I believe is her name. I'm embarrassing, I'm forgetting her

504
00:26:41,720 --> 00:26:45,040
Speaker 1: last name, but she's a great writer. And she said

505
00:26:45,040 --> 00:26:48,359
Speaker 1: something to the effect of, when I see self criticism,

506
00:26:48,359 --> 00:26:50,320
Speaker 1: I realize it's not my voice. It's the voice of

507
00:26:50,359 --> 00:26:54,880
Speaker 1: the system. And so you're telling yourself you don't look good. Well,

508
00:26:54,880 --> 00:26:58,879
Speaker 1: who's by whose standards? It's the culture standards. And I

509
00:26:58,920 --> 00:27:01,199
Speaker 1: have two modes that I'm least proud of. One is

510
00:27:01,760 --> 00:27:07,560
Speaker 1: greedy and the other is angry. Angry, And as over time,

511
00:27:07,600 --> 00:27:10,479
Speaker 1: I've learned to actually have some affection for these modes

512
00:27:10,520 --> 00:27:13,680
Speaker 1: because it's just the organism trying to protect itself. It's

513
00:27:13,800 --> 00:27:19,919
Speaker 1: just my ancient fear based patterns doing their best. Usually,

514
00:27:19,960 --> 00:27:22,719
Speaker 1: you know, like it's a five year old's version of

515
00:27:22,960 --> 00:27:26,480
Speaker 1: doing their best to protect this body. But I don't

516
00:27:26,520 --> 00:27:28,640
Speaker 1: need to listen to them, and in fact, the radical

517
00:27:28,680 --> 00:27:30,920
Speaker 1: disarmament is to actually make friends with them, to kind

518
00:27:30,920 --> 00:27:33,840
Speaker 1: of high five those demons instead of trying to slay them.

519
00:27:33,920 --> 00:27:37,040
Speaker 1: And for me, that's been really useful. And just to

520
00:27:37,040 --> 00:27:39,920
Speaker 1: get it back to your question, combining these, I would

521
00:27:39,920 --> 00:27:44,679
Speaker 1: say modern psychological tools with ancient contemplative tools has really

522
00:27:44,720 --> 00:27:45,320
Speaker 1: been helpful.

523
00:27:45,920 --> 00:27:49,040
Speaker 2: Absolutely. Yeah, I love you just reminded me of making

524
00:27:49,080 --> 00:27:51,600
Speaker 2: that point about the system that you quoted there reminds

525
00:27:51,640 --> 00:27:54,679
Speaker 2: me of years yes, and years and years ago. I

526
00:27:54,720 --> 00:27:56,439
Speaker 2: was when I was a student in London and I

527
00:27:56,480 --> 00:28:00,520
Speaker 2: remember walking through, you know, like a department store and

528
00:28:00,840 --> 00:28:03,879
Speaker 2: there was a big advert that said get the natural look,

529
00:28:04,080 --> 00:28:06,480
Speaker 2: and then it was like all these things that products

530
00:28:06,480 --> 00:28:08,320
Speaker 2: that can help you get the natural look. And just

531
00:28:08,359 --> 00:28:13,680
Speaker 2: that idea of purchasing a natural look is fascinating because.

532
00:28:13,520 --> 00:28:14,640
Speaker 3: As if you weren't born with them.

533
00:28:14,720 --> 00:28:17,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, but it is that voice right saying okay, well,

534
00:28:18,040 --> 00:28:20,560
Speaker 2: even to get a natural look. And again, you know,

535
00:28:20,680 --> 00:28:23,800
Speaker 2: I think there are pros and consom in you. I'm

536
00:28:23,840 --> 00:28:25,920
Speaker 2: a big fan of so many products, so many services,

537
00:28:25,920 --> 00:28:28,040
Speaker 2: so many things, and so it's not to say it's

538
00:28:28,040 --> 00:28:31,520
Speaker 2: all bad, but there is a need in mindfulness to

539
00:28:32,080 --> 00:28:35,720
Speaker 2: I think what you're saying is to differentiate and have

540
00:28:35,800 --> 00:28:41,400
Speaker 2: the ability of discernment between is this voice me or

541
00:28:41,480 --> 00:28:44,040
Speaker 2: is this something outside of me, whether it's a system

542
00:28:44,120 --> 00:28:46,240
Speaker 2: or a person or whatever it may be. And I

543
00:28:46,240 --> 00:28:48,880
Speaker 2: think that's the quality that we need, because it isn't

544
00:28:48,920 --> 00:28:51,240
Speaker 2: necessarily saying I'm just going to shut everything off and

545
00:28:51,280 --> 00:28:54,840
Speaker 2: nothing matters. It's this idea of can I tell? Can

546
00:28:54,880 --> 00:28:57,000
Speaker 2: I tell that when I'm listening to the voice in

547
00:28:57,000 --> 00:29:00,920
Speaker 2: my head as to whether it's truly mine or whether

548
00:29:01,000 --> 00:29:05,520
Speaker 2: it's being picked up or nurtured by some other external force.

549
00:29:05,800 --> 00:29:10,920
Speaker 1: Another fascinating question is what is me? Close your eyes

550
00:29:10,960 --> 00:29:13,320
Speaker 1: and look inside. Can you find some core nuggative j

551
00:29:13,880 --> 00:29:17,320
Speaker 1: and spend some time with that question that'll pop you

552
00:29:17,360 --> 00:29:21,120
Speaker 1: out of ruminating about lots of other unhealthy things.

553
00:29:21,240 --> 00:29:22,520
Speaker 2: Where is that question taken you?

554
00:29:23,560 --> 00:29:24,640
Speaker 3: I think you think.

555
00:29:24,840 --> 00:29:26,920
Speaker 1: I think you come more out of the Hindu tradition,

556
00:29:27,240 --> 00:29:28,440
Speaker 1: and I come a little bit more out of the

557
00:29:28,440 --> 00:29:31,240
Speaker 1: Buddhist tradition, even though I don't look like it. But

558
00:29:31,720 --> 00:29:34,400
Speaker 1: you know, that's That's where I've spent the last fifteen

559
00:29:34,440 --> 00:29:37,240
Speaker 1: years of my life really doing a lot of study.

560
00:29:38,360 --> 00:29:41,400
Speaker 1: And one of the things I say in Tibetan Buddhism

561
00:29:41,480 --> 00:29:47,280
Speaker 1: is that the not finding is the finding because there's

562
00:29:47,280 --> 00:29:51,280
Speaker 1: nothing to find there. I yes, I mean on the convention,

563
00:29:51,360 --> 00:29:55,000
Speaker 1: on the level of consensual, conventional reality, I'm Dan and

564
00:29:55,320 --> 00:29:57,640
Speaker 1: that camera's taking a picture of me, And yes, that

565
00:29:57,800 --> 00:30:00,920
Speaker 1: is true. But on the deepest possible level, if I

566
00:30:01,160 --> 00:30:04,200
Speaker 1: look for some core nugget of Dan, there's nothing to find,

567
00:30:04,680 --> 00:30:09,000
Speaker 1: and that not finding is the answer. And if can

568
00:30:09,040 --> 00:30:13,479
Speaker 1: you stay with that ambiguity, there is something healing about that.

569
00:30:13,520 --> 00:30:15,240
Speaker 1: So how how do you take that out of the

570
00:30:15,480 --> 00:30:19,120
Speaker 1: esoteric clouds into your actual life? One little linguistic trick.

571
00:30:19,400 --> 00:30:21,360
Speaker 1: You kind of teed me up for this before, because

572
00:30:21,400 --> 00:30:25,120
Speaker 1: you use the phrase I am like, I am so,

573
00:30:25,240 --> 00:30:27,920
Speaker 1: and so what if you just and this is I

574
00:30:27,960 --> 00:30:29,600
Speaker 1: want to give credit to the person who came up

575
00:30:29,600 --> 00:30:32,000
Speaker 1: with this. It's Joseph Goldstein is a great meditation teacher,

576
00:30:32,000 --> 00:30:36,240
Speaker 1: but he often advises his students to say, instead of

577
00:30:36,400 --> 00:30:39,960
Speaker 1: I am fill in the blank, there is fill in

578
00:30:39,960 --> 00:30:43,600
Speaker 1: the blank. There is hunger right now, there is anger

579
00:30:43,840 --> 00:30:46,200
Speaker 1: in my mind right now, there is sadness in my

580
00:30:46,280 --> 00:30:46,920
Speaker 1: mind right.

581
00:30:46,800 --> 00:30:49,200
Speaker 3: Now, there's no you to find.

582
00:30:49,440 --> 00:30:51,880
Speaker 1: The adding of the you on top of it is

583
00:30:52,040 --> 00:30:57,080
Speaker 1: just adding insult to injury, right, you don't that's extra,

584
00:30:57,760 --> 00:31:01,000
Speaker 1: but that it's true that hunger and sadness can be

585
00:31:01,040 --> 00:31:02,640
Speaker 1: here right now. But if you can take the I

586
00:31:02,760 --> 00:31:04,760
Speaker 1: am out of it and to that there is, well

587
00:31:04,800 --> 00:31:07,400
Speaker 1: that it's workable. Right, you can do something with it.

588
00:31:07,440 --> 00:31:09,720
Speaker 1: You can let it pass, you can observe it, you

589
00:31:09,760 --> 00:31:11,880
Speaker 1: can try to work with it. But if you add

590
00:31:11,880 --> 00:31:13,960
Speaker 1: in a whole story about how ij or I dan

591
00:31:14,000 --> 00:31:17,240
Speaker 1: I mean curably fill in the blank, well that's much.

592
00:31:17,440 --> 00:31:18,560
Speaker 3: That's a much bigger problem.

593
00:31:18,880 --> 00:31:21,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, I love that. I mean I've never heard that

594
00:31:21,080 --> 00:31:24,840
Speaker 2: there is. That's beautiful, that's that's really I can totally

595
00:31:24,880 --> 00:31:27,480
Speaker 2: see how that is such a beautiful tool and an

596
00:31:27,480 --> 00:31:31,360
Speaker 2: insight for people to use as language. Because it's interesting, though,

597
00:31:31,400 --> 00:31:33,800
Speaker 2: isn't it? Because it feels like we're all so obsessed

598
00:31:33,840 --> 00:31:38,120
Speaker 2: with identity in our stories and almost what you're proposing

599
00:31:38,200 --> 00:31:42,120
Speaker 2: is this idea of recognizing that there's somewhat of a

600
00:31:42,120 --> 00:31:48,120
Speaker 2: distance between us and our identity and story. Yet everything

601
00:31:48,160 --> 00:31:50,840
Speaker 2: we've been discussing today, whether it's social media, whether it's

602
00:31:51,560 --> 00:31:54,400
Speaker 2: the system, whether it's the story your parents laid out

603
00:31:54,400 --> 00:31:58,600
Speaker 2: for you, all of that, there's stories to be lived, crafted,

604
00:31:58,720 --> 00:32:00,640
Speaker 2: told and almost we're all living on our own stories

605
00:32:00,680 --> 00:32:03,160
Speaker 2: in our own mind. And so yeah, how are you

606
00:32:03,240 --> 00:32:06,760
Speaker 2: able to operate as Dan Harris, the teacher, the guide,

607
00:32:06,800 --> 00:32:11,000
Speaker 2: the you know podcast, et cetera. And then also have

608
00:32:11,200 --> 00:32:15,320
Speaker 2: the the balance of this recognition that actually there is

609
00:32:15,360 --> 00:32:16,560
Speaker 2: and there's no I am.

610
00:32:16,560 --> 00:32:17,720
Speaker 3: Well, can I turn it around?

611
00:32:17,880 --> 00:32:18,160
Speaker 2: Of course?

612
00:32:18,760 --> 00:32:22,440
Speaker 1: Like my last retreat was six to nine months ago,

613
00:32:22,480 --> 00:32:24,560
Speaker 1: I've got one coming up. So I'm like further and

614
00:32:24,600 --> 00:32:28,160
Speaker 1: further away from sanity, but you are much fresher, like

615
00:32:28,200 --> 00:32:29,840
Speaker 1: you've just come out of a retreat.

616
00:32:30,000 --> 00:32:31,320
Speaker 3: How do you balance that?

617
00:32:32,240 --> 00:32:37,120
Speaker 2: There's an understanding of the needs and interests of the

618
00:32:37,200 --> 00:32:43,200
Speaker 2: different vehicles in which I live. So the body being

619
00:32:43,240 --> 00:32:46,520
Speaker 2: one vehicle, the body has certain needs in order to

620
00:32:46,600 --> 00:32:51,120
Speaker 2: operate and in order to function, and then the mind

621
00:32:51,280 --> 00:32:58,240
Speaker 2: has certain needs and awareness that it will easily be

622
00:32:58,320 --> 00:33:01,080
Speaker 2: a support or as the getas as the best friend

623
00:33:01,120 --> 00:33:04,880
Speaker 2: of the worst enemy. So recognizing again as you said earlier,

624
00:33:05,120 --> 00:33:09,480
Speaker 2: the befriending of the mind requires an awareness and then

625
00:33:10,800 --> 00:33:14,400
Speaker 2: at a deeper level, looking at our emotions, looking at

626
00:33:14,440 --> 00:33:18,520
Speaker 2: our spiritual or consciousness connection. And so to me, it's

627
00:33:18,640 --> 00:33:23,840
Speaker 2: the outlining and awareness of the needs for that specific vehicle,

628
00:33:26,440 --> 00:33:29,040
Speaker 2: but not falling into the trap of believing the vehicle

629
00:33:29,120 --> 00:33:34,760
Speaker 2: is me. And the balance comes from recognizing using there

630
00:33:34,880 --> 00:33:37,560
Speaker 2: is is beautiful actually, but recognizing that there are needs

631
00:33:37,600 --> 00:33:41,120
Speaker 2: for each aspect that need to be taken care of,

632
00:33:42,080 --> 00:33:44,760
Speaker 2: but that one should not accept each of them to

633
00:33:44,800 --> 00:33:49,800
Speaker 2: be oneself. And I think for me that comes in

634
00:33:49,800 --> 00:33:52,480
Speaker 2: the form of having to remind myself of that which

635
00:33:52,520 --> 00:33:57,440
Speaker 2: is beyond the physical self, because it's easier to get

636
00:33:58,400 --> 00:34:01,080
Speaker 2: connected and identify with the farhysical self than it is

637
00:34:01,120 --> 00:34:04,400
Speaker 2: with the non physical self. Because the non physical self

638
00:34:04,440 --> 00:34:07,480
Speaker 2: is intangible, it's unseen when unaware of it, we don't

639
00:34:07,560 --> 00:34:09,759
Speaker 2: live in a society that reminds us of it. I

640
00:34:09,800 --> 00:34:12,040
Speaker 2: was thinking about this while I was actually at the monastery.

641
00:34:12,120 --> 00:34:14,279
Speaker 2: So the monastery doesn't have mirrors, and that was something

642
00:34:14,320 --> 00:34:17,200
Speaker 2: I've talked about before, where you lose your sense of

643
00:34:17,239 --> 00:34:19,319
Speaker 2: your physical self. Like while I lived there, I didn't

644
00:34:19,360 --> 00:34:22,319
Speaker 2: really I forgot deeply what I look like, and so

645
00:34:22,400 --> 00:34:25,320
Speaker 2: if I was out on the streets when I was traveling,

646
00:34:25,320 --> 00:34:27,239
Speaker 2: I would always try and look at my reflection in

647
00:34:27,280 --> 00:34:30,000
Speaker 2: a you know, in a shop window, whatever it may be.

648
00:34:30,719 --> 00:34:32,239
Speaker 2: And when I was back this time as well, I

649
00:34:32,280 --> 00:34:35,000
Speaker 2: was having that realization that the number one thing I

650
00:34:35,080 --> 00:34:37,200
Speaker 2: do in the morning when I wake up back at

651
00:34:37,200 --> 00:34:39,680
Speaker 2: my home is I look in the mirror. And so

652
00:34:39,719 --> 00:34:42,480
Speaker 2: I'm already from the moment I wake up living in

653
00:34:42,520 --> 00:34:45,319
Speaker 2: my physical self. I'm now living believing that I am

654
00:34:45,360 --> 00:34:47,440
Speaker 2: this body and this is all there is. And so

655
00:34:47,480 --> 00:34:50,960
Speaker 2: that automatically sets me up on the opposite end of

656
00:34:51,000 --> 00:34:54,040
Speaker 2: what I'm trying to practice spiritually. And so I found

657
00:34:54,040 --> 00:34:56,560
Speaker 2: that the balance is kept by making that reminder, that

658
00:34:56,600 --> 00:35:00,120
Speaker 2: first thought of the day of recognizing, whether it's in

659
00:35:00,160 --> 00:35:03,799
Speaker 2: your language, you know that which is not or that

660
00:35:03,840 --> 00:35:07,080
Speaker 2: which is unseen. And in the Hindu tradition, the accepting

661
00:35:07,120 --> 00:35:12,160
Speaker 2: of us being pure, eternal, full of knowledge, and full

662
00:35:12,200 --> 00:35:16,560
Speaker 2: of bliss is consciousness identifying with that before I identify

663
00:35:16,640 --> 00:35:19,080
Speaker 2: with anything else, and that, to me is what helps

664
00:35:19,120 --> 00:35:22,640
Speaker 2: the balance, is not falling into the easy identification. I

665
00:35:22,680 --> 00:35:24,240
Speaker 2: don't know if any of that made any sense.

666
00:35:24,080 --> 00:35:25,319
Speaker 3: But well I does.

667
00:35:25,560 --> 00:35:28,480
Speaker 1: I think, Well, you're aware through your own practice that

668
00:35:28,600 --> 00:35:31,440
Speaker 1: there's more than just the jay you see in the mirror,

669
00:35:32,719 --> 00:35:36,640
Speaker 1: and yet you live in a busy world and you're actually,

670
00:35:37,040 --> 00:35:40,719
Speaker 1: like me, you're kind of building a business around the

671
00:35:40,800 --> 00:35:44,440
Speaker 1: small version of yourself, like the physical, corporeal version of

672
00:35:44,480 --> 00:35:48,160
Speaker 1: yourself that presents here and now, smaller than the sort

673
00:35:48,200 --> 00:35:52,480
Speaker 1: of vast, infinite, mysterious we don't know what that is

674
00:35:52,520 --> 00:35:55,759
Speaker 1: somehow lives in your mind. And the way that you

675
00:35:55,840 --> 00:36:00,760
Speaker 1: balance it, I heard, is just engaging the messy business

676
00:36:00,760 --> 00:36:02,760
Speaker 1: of trying to remember to the best of your ability.

677
00:36:02,960 --> 00:36:05,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, I can't, I can't. I don't need to remind

678
00:36:05,520 --> 00:36:09,120
Speaker 2: myself that I'm jay this physical version, because I'm reminded

679
00:36:09,120 --> 00:36:11,720
Speaker 2: of that every day. But I have to remind myself

680
00:36:11,760 --> 00:36:14,560
Speaker 2: of that which is beyond this, because otherwise it's so

681
00:36:14,640 --> 00:36:17,360
Speaker 2: easy to lose touch with it. Because we are living

682
00:36:17,520 --> 00:36:20,279
Speaker 2: with the bodily needs is the prime focus. And I

683
00:36:20,320 --> 00:36:24,960
Speaker 2: think that's why retreats and experiences are so supportive, where

684
00:36:25,280 --> 00:36:29,520
Speaker 2: the bodily needs somewhat become a background priority and the

685
00:36:29,520 --> 00:36:33,120
Speaker 2: needs of the deeper self rise and the connection with

686
00:36:33,200 --> 00:36:36,280
Speaker 2: that self is more prominent. And I find that starting

687
00:36:36,280 --> 00:36:38,080
Speaker 2: my year of that way helps. I was actually just

688
00:36:38,360 --> 00:36:40,799
Speaker 2: I was talking to someone who was mentioning they came

689
00:36:40,880 --> 00:36:43,960
Speaker 2: to one of your retreats at Omega, and they were saying,

690
00:36:43,960 --> 00:36:45,600
Speaker 2: what a beautiful experience that was there, said it was

691
00:36:45,600 --> 00:36:47,120
Speaker 2: the only retreat they've ever been on, but they plan

692
00:36:47,200 --> 00:36:49,799
Speaker 2: on coming on more. And it was for that same

693
00:36:49,840 --> 00:36:52,120
Speaker 2: reason to be reminded. And I think that's why we

694
00:36:52,160 --> 00:36:55,000
Speaker 2: do anything right. I think we most of what we

695
00:36:55,040 --> 00:36:58,239
Speaker 2: do is to remind ourselves of something that we care

696
00:36:58,280 --> 00:37:00,720
Speaker 2: about and something that's meaningful to us, whether it's spending

697
00:37:00,719 --> 00:37:03,440
Speaker 2: time with our family or why we celebrate the holidays,

698
00:37:03,560 --> 00:37:06,680
Speaker 2: like so much of I think the most beautiful things

699
00:37:06,680 --> 00:37:09,080
Speaker 2: in our world are reminding us of what truly matters.

700
00:37:09,280 --> 00:37:12,319
Speaker 2: And I think spiritual and meditation. To me, meditation is

701
00:37:12,360 --> 00:37:15,880
Speaker 2: my daily practice overmind myself of what truly matters exactly.

702
00:37:15,920 --> 00:37:19,360
Speaker 1: I mean, I think the biggest problem in my experience,

703
00:37:19,400 --> 00:37:22,160
Speaker 1: the biggest problem in whatever again, like I don't know

704
00:37:22,160 --> 00:37:24,719
Speaker 1: what to call this, personal growth, spiritual development, whatever it is.

705
00:37:24,760 --> 00:37:29,759
Speaker 1: The biggest challenge is forgetting. Because you hear a great podcast,

706
00:37:29,840 --> 00:37:32,439
Speaker 1: you see a great Instagram post, you read a great book,

707
00:37:32,480 --> 00:37:35,000
Speaker 1: you go to a great retreat, but then everything about

708
00:37:35,000 --> 00:37:39,000
Speaker 1: modern life pulls you back into the I'm going to

709
00:37:39,040 --> 00:37:41,040
Speaker 1: get satisfaction from the next thing. Oh no, no, the

710
00:37:41,080 --> 00:37:44,160
Speaker 1: next thing. I'm going to keep scrolling. I'm gonna get

711
00:37:44,160 --> 00:37:46,000
Speaker 1: that next sip of a latte, I'm going to get

712
00:37:46,000 --> 00:37:47,799
Speaker 1: the next promotion. And again I'm not saying these are

713
00:37:47,840 --> 00:37:50,560
Speaker 1: bad things, but they won't do it for you. Right,

714
00:37:50,600 --> 00:37:54,640
Speaker 1: There's a reason why you keep wanting more because the

715
00:37:54,719 --> 00:37:58,960
Speaker 1: way the human animals designed is natural selection. Didn't want

716
00:37:59,040 --> 00:38:01,319
Speaker 1: us to be satisfied becase then we stop, you know,

717
00:38:01,360 --> 00:38:05,440
Speaker 1: having babies, and that wouldn't be good for the species.

718
00:38:05,760 --> 00:38:09,360
Speaker 1: So you need to wake you need this is a

719
00:38:09,560 --> 00:38:12,719
Speaker 1: urgent mission. You need to find as many ways as

720
00:38:12,760 --> 00:38:15,319
Speaker 1: possible to wake back up. And you just describe, you know,

721
00:38:15,440 --> 00:38:18,400
Speaker 1: meditation is a great way to like pound this stuff

722
00:38:18,400 --> 00:38:21,320
Speaker 1: into your neurons. It's probably too aggressive of an analogy,

723
00:38:21,360 --> 00:38:24,320
Speaker 1: but it gets it into your molecules in a way.

724
00:38:24,520 --> 00:38:29,000
Speaker 1: And another thing you also described earlier is having good friends.

725
00:38:29,320 --> 00:38:32,200
Speaker 1: You know, if you can surround yourself with people who

726
00:38:32,280 --> 00:38:35,520
Speaker 1: are also taking this thing seriously, that is a great

727
00:38:35,560 --> 00:38:36,879
Speaker 1: way to wake yourself back up.

728
00:38:37,239 --> 00:38:38,920
Speaker 3: And it also, by the way, is a.

729
00:38:38,840 --> 00:38:42,360
Speaker 1: Great way to get you out of your attachment to

730
00:38:43,200 --> 00:38:44,560
Speaker 1: this sort of I don't know if this is the

731
00:38:44,600 --> 00:38:47,120
Speaker 1: appropriate term to use, but the sort of smallest, most

732
00:38:47,120 --> 00:38:51,080
Speaker 1: superficial version of yourself, the brand of Dan, the brand

733
00:38:51,120 --> 00:38:53,439
Speaker 1: of Jay. Well, if you're talking to your best friend

734
00:38:53,480 --> 00:38:55,160
Speaker 1: and he's got a problem and you're helping him with it.

735
00:38:55,680 --> 00:38:58,120
Speaker 1: Another word for that would be generosity. Right, if you're

736
00:38:58,320 --> 00:39:00,719
Speaker 1: being generous in some way that's going to get you

737
00:39:00,760 --> 00:39:02,960
Speaker 1: out of your head, that is a form of letting go.

738
00:39:03,160 --> 00:39:08,040
Speaker 2: Mm hmmm, I like that. Yeah, that really that struck

739
00:39:08,080 --> 00:39:11,600
Speaker 2: a corde of like how again, going back to that

740
00:39:11,680 --> 00:39:14,680
Speaker 2: being when when we're being a I guess in that

741
00:39:14,719 --> 00:39:19,279
Speaker 2: case you said generous. There's an element of us not

742
00:39:20,719 --> 00:39:25,680
Speaker 2: living in the system, is what you say? That feels right? Why?

743
00:39:25,760 --> 00:39:27,960
Speaker 2: Why is that? Why? Why do you think that breaks

744
00:39:27,960 --> 00:39:28,360
Speaker 2: the system?

745
00:39:29,080 --> 00:39:32,800
Speaker 1: It's a little line that I have which is impolite,

746
00:39:32,840 --> 00:39:35,680
Speaker 1: but the view is so much better when you pull

747
00:39:35,680 --> 00:39:38,440
Speaker 1: your head out of your ass, and you know, if

748
00:39:38,520 --> 00:39:39,680
Speaker 1: you're being generous, your.

749
00:39:39,600 --> 00:39:40,440
Speaker 3: Head's out of your ass.

750
00:39:40,719 --> 00:39:43,239
Speaker 1: Even if you have ulterior motives, which I think we

751
00:39:44,040 --> 00:39:47,560
Speaker 1: unfairly demonize, like it's okay to give because you know

752
00:39:47,800 --> 00:39:50,719
Speaker 1: you have some there's something in it for you. By

753
00:39:50,719 --> 00:39:52,680
Speaker 1: the way, there is something in it for you. The

754
00:39:52,719 --> 00:39:57,640
Speaker 1: brain is wired to experience intense reward in the act

755
00:39:57,680 --> 00:40:01,120
Speaker 1: of generosity. That's cool, but you're still more of your

756
00:40:01,120 --> 00:40:04,520
Speaker 1: bandwidth focused on the benefit to somebody else. Than there

757
00:40:04,520 --> 00:40:07,840
Speaker 1: would be if you were like mindlessly scrolling or binging

758
00:40:07,920 --> 00:40:10,400
Speaker 1: or eating or whatever it is. And it is just

759
00:40:10,520 --> 00:40:13,920
Speaker 1: fundamentally getting your head out of your ass in whatever

760
00:40:13,960 --> 00:40:15,839
Speaker 1: form you choose. And it doesn't have to be giving money.

761
00:40:15,840 --> 00:40:18,320
Speaker 1: It can be holding the door open for somebody. I

762
00:40:19,520 --> 00:40:23,320
Speaker 1: sometimes ask people to do this little mental, very easy

763
00:40:23,360 --> 00:40:26,319
Speaker 1: mental game of like, pay attention. The next time you

764
00:40:26,360 --> 00:40:28,719
Speaker 1: hold the door open for somebody, what does that feel like?

765
00:40:28,880 --> 00:40:31,160
Speaker 1: It feels good if you're paying attention. That feeling is

766
00:40:31,200 --> 00:40:34,680
Speaker 1: infinitely scalable in a way that the pleasure of Instagram

767
00:40:34,800 --> 00:40:38,200
Speaker 1: or ice cream is not. And I just you can

768
00:40:38,400 --> 00:40:42,879
Speaker 1: ride that insight. Not that I do it perfectly, if

769
00:40:42,880 --> 00:40:45,839
Speaker 1: at all, but you can, if you're so inclined, ride

770
00:40:45,880 --> 00:40:50,160
Speaker 1: that insight all the way to significantly greater levels of happiness.

771
00:40:50,280 --> 00:40:52,480
Speaker 2: Yeah. Wow, I love that. I love that. That's so

772
00:40:52,640 --> 00:40:55,600
Speaker 2: interesting that after all these years, you can still open

773
00:40:55,600 --> 00:40:59,200
Speaker 2: the door for someone and it still feels great and

774
00:41:00,080 --> 00:41:02,200
Speaker 2: you know whether whether the other person responds or not.

775
00:41:02,280 --> 00:41:07,439
Speaker 2: But the endless scrolling on social media is kind of yeah,

776
00:41:07,800 --> 00:41:09,720
Speaker 2: loses its taste very very quickly.

777
00:41:09,800 --> 00:41:11,879
Speaker 1: Yeah, it doesn't mean you should ever do it. It's

778
00:41:11,880 --> 00:41:13,560
Speaker 1: just the endless part that you should lose.

779
00:41:13,840 --> 00:41:16,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, absolutely, I mean, I guess that's one of

780
00:41:16,520 --> 00:41:18,520
Speaker 2: the things I loved about in this book when I

781
00:41:18,520 --> 00:41:22,239
Speaker 2: first came across it. Your book Ten Percent Happier, which is,

782
00:41:22,280 --> 00:41:25,319
Speaker 2: you know, a huge best seller, huge success led to

783
00:41:25,640 --> 00:41:28,640
Speaker 2: the podcast. Also, one of the things I loved was

784
00:41:28,800 --> 00:41:32,920
Speaker 2: this whole idea about without losing your edge. And I

785
00:41:33,080 --> 00:41:36,680
Speaker 2: really appreciated that because I think it's what we've both

786
00:41:36,719 --> 00:41:40,920
Speaker 2: been talking about here. Like I enjoy operating and building

787
00:41:40,960 --> 00:41:43,880
Speaker 2: and creating like I do, and I've always been. I

788
00:41:43,880 --> 00:41:45,359
Speaker 2: feel like I'm at a point in my life where

789
00:41:45,360 --> 00:41:49,080
Speaker 2: I've given myself permission to be all aspects of myself.

790
00:41:49,600 --> 00:41:52,360
Speaker 2: And up until this stage in my life, I was

791
00:41:52,400 --> 00:41:55,359
Speaker 2: just collecting different parts of myself, and so I felt

792
00:41:55,440 --> 00:41:57,840
Speaker 2: like I collected to I mean, zero to ten probably

793
00:41:57,840 --> 00:42:01,280
Speaker 2: didn't do anything, but ten to twenty collected things. Twenty

794
00:42:01,320 --> 00:42:03,480
Speaker 2: to thirty I collected things. And now I'm in my thirties,

795
00:42:03,520 --> 00:42:07,800
Speaker 2: I feel like I'm connecting things. And that collection to

796
00:42:07,880 --> 00:42:14,160
Speaker 2: connection has been primarily through the uncomfortable process of accepting

797
00:42:14,160 --> 00:42:18,200
Speaker 2: and giving myself permission for the paradoxical and contradictory things

798
00:42:18,280 --> 00:42:20,400
Speaker 2: that live in within me. So as much as I

799
00:42:20,440 --> 00:42:26,239
Speaker 2: love being fully present and mindful and deeply purifying myself,

800
00:42:26,640 --> 00:42:30,799
Speaker 2: I also really enjoy building and creating and learning and

801
00:42:30,840 --> 00:42:34,719
Speaker 2: being curious and outward. And those two things coexist, and

802
00:42:34,760 --> 00:42:38,040
Speaker 2: I actually find that one feeds the other. So I

803
00:42:38,040 --> 00:42:39,960
Speaker 2: find that the further I go outwards, the more I

804
00:42:39,960 --> 00:42:41,720
Speaker 2: want to go inwards, and the more I go inwards,

805
00:42:41,719 --> 00:42:44,240
Speaker 2: the more I want to go outwards in a positive sense,

806
00:42:44,280 --> 00:42:47,200
Speaker 2: And that cycle continues, and it's a cycle, it's not

807
00:42:47,280 --> 00:42:51,400
Speaker 2: a and I think both of us, having studied Eastern traditions,

808
00:42:51,600 --> 00:42:54,920
Speaker 2: the East is fully cyclical and not linear in all

809
00:42:54,920 --> 00:42:57,600
Speaker 2: of its practices. So the growth journey looks like this,

810
00:42:58,239 --> 00:43:01,399
Speaker 2: and the Western growth journey generally is portrayed as that,

811
00:43:01,640 --> 00:43:02,759
Speaker 2: though even though it may not.

812
00:43:02,800 --> 00:43:05,400
Speaker 1: Be, there's a way in which you can assume that

813
00:43:05,600 --> 00:43:08,279
Speaker 1: sitting and meditating or even going to a can you

814
00:43:08,320 --> 00:43:10,399
Speaker 1: believe this dude went to a monastery for ten days

815
00:43:10,440 --> 00:43:12,279
Speaker 1: a couple of days ago, Like, that's not going to

816
00:43:12,280 --> 00:43:14,600
Speaker 1: help him with his edge, But actually it does help you.

817
00:43:15,000 --> 00:43:15,799
Speaker 3: It does help you.

818
00:43:16,280 --> 00:43:18,680
Speaker 1: Do you want to be less emotionally reactive? Do you

819
00:43:18,680 --> 00:43:20,040
Speaker 1: want to be more focused? Do you want to have

820
00:43:20,080 --> 00:43:23,240
Speaker 1: better relationships with your collaborators. Okay, do you think going

821
00:43:23,360 --> 00:43:24,960
Speaker 1: to a monastery is going to help or hurt with

822
00:43:24,960 --> 00:43:27,160
Speaker 1: those things? It's going to help with all of those things,

823
00:43:27,239 --> 00:43:29,440
Speaker 1: and those are the things we need to be successful.

824
00:43:30,400 --> 00:43:34,840
Speaker 1: We've been sold through hustle culture this idea that you know,

825
00:43:34,960 --> 00:43:37,680
Speaker 1: thank God it's Monday, I've got to rise and grind

826
00:43:37,719 --> 00:43:40,600
Speaker 1: and all of that stuff. But that that is, in

827
00:43:40,640 --> 00:43:43,960
Speaker 1: my experience, a great way to burn out, when in fact,

828
00:43:43,960 --> 00:43:47,520
Speaker 1: that the cycle that you just talked about of retreat

829
00:43:47,520 --> 00:43:50,080
Speaker 1: to advance kind of you know, you take some you

830
00:43:50,120 --> 00:43:51,440
Speaker 1: don't have to do it. It doesn't even have to be

831
00:43:51,440 --> 00:43:53,760
Speaker 1: a retreat. It can be just five minutes of meditation

832
00:43:53,880 --> 00:43:56,799
Speaker 1: every day. That that is filling your tank in a

833
00:43:56,840 --> 00:43:59,520
Speaker 1: way that allows you to engage in the world more effectively.

834
00:43:59,719 --> 00:44:03,080
Speaker 1: And so these two things are not in opposition in

835
00:44:03,080 --> 00:44:05,840
Speaker 1: my experience. And you're a walking example of that, Like

836
00:44:05,920 --> 00:44:09,359
Speaker 1: you spent time being a monk, and that has helped

837
00:44:09,400 --> 00:44:12,360
Speaker 1: you build a business that helps other people, that helps

838
00:44:12,360 --> 00:44:14,040
Speaker 1: you do more inner work.

839
00:44:14,360 --> 00:44:14,960
Speaker 3: Boom.

840
00:44:15,360 --> 00:44:17,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, And of course, and I love what you

841
00:44:17,719 --> 00:44:19,600
Speaker 2: said there, because yeah, we've talked a bit about retreats,

842
00:44:19,600 --> 00:44:21,080
Speaker 2: and I don't want everyone to think they need to

843
00:44:21,440 --> 00:44:23,480
Speaker 2: disappear for a week or a year or whatever it

844
00:44:23,480 --> 00:44:25,400
Speaker 2: may be. All of this can be done in the

845
00:44:25,440 --> 00:44:27,920
Speaker 2: microcosm of five minutes. I want to don walk us

846
00:44:27,920 --> 00:44:30,319
Speaker 2: through your daily meditation practice. And I'm sure you've done

847
00:44:30,360 --> 00:44:32,279
Speaker 2: this a million times, but I'd love for people to

848
00:44:32,280 --> 00:44:33,960
Speaker 2: hear it, because I'd love for people to hear how

849
00:44:34,320 --> 00:44:36,880
Speaker 2: accessible some of these ideas are on a daily basis

850
00:44:36,920 --> 00:44:40,200
Speaker 2: that we're talking about, and of course in a way

851
00:44:40,200 --> 00:44:42,239
Speaker 2: that they can start practicing as well. So what is

852
00:44:42,239 --> 00:44:43,560
Speaker 2: your data practice.

853
00:44:43,680 --> 00:44:47,960
Speaker 1: I'm actually I'm excited where you're interviewing me right now.

854
00:44:48,000 --> 00:44:50,680
Speaker 1: But then in like two minutes we're going to turn

855
00:44:50,719 --> 00:44:52,960
Speaker 1: this around and I'm gonna interview you and I because

856
00:44:52,960 --> 00:44:55,279
Speaker 1: we come from different traditions, so I actually come into

857
00:44:55,280 --> 00:44:57,560
Speaker 1: my discussion with you with a lot of curiosity about

858
00:44:57,840 --> 00:45:01,400
Speaker 1: what your meditation is like. So from a Buddhist standpoint,

859
00:45:01,920 --> 00:45:06,920
Speaker 1: it's for beginners really not complex, and a lot of

860
00:45:06,920 --> 00:45:10,200
Speaker 1: people worry that it's going to be you know, esoteric

861
00:45:10,360 --> 00:45:13,760
Speaker 1: or impossible, but it really isn't. There's really three steps

862
00:45:13,800 --> 00:45:16,880
Speaker 1: for beginning mindfulness meditation. And by the way, I did

863
00:45:17,000 --> 00:45:20,680
Speaker 1: use I keep talking about Buddhism, but this meditation that

864
00:45:20,719 --> 00:45:24,400
Speaker 1: I'm talking about now is secular. There's no religious lingo

865
00:45:24,600 --> 00:45:27,560
Speaker 1: or metaphysical claims. It's just a it's a very simple,

866
00:45:27,760 --> 00:45:30,520
Speaker 1: secular kind of exercise for the brain. And the first

867
00:45:30,560 --> 00:45:33,520
Speaker 1: step is just to sit or lie down comfortably, close

868
00:45:33,520 --> 00:45:37,040
Speaker 1: your eyes. And the second step is to bring your

869
00:45:37,040 --> 00:45:39,279
Speaker 1: full attention to the feeling of your breath coming in

870
00:45:39,320 --> 00:45:43,520
Speaker 1: and going out. For some people, the breath is can

871
00:45:43,520 --> 00:45:45,520
Speaker 1: make you a little anxious if you're focusing on that,

872
00:45:45,600 --> 00:45:47,560
Speaker 1: and if that's you, then you just pick something else,

873
00:45:47,640 --> 00:45:49,680
Speaker 1: like the feeling of your body sitting or lying down.

874
00:45:50,920 --> 00:45:53,880
Speaker 1: So that's step number two. First, get into a comfortable position,

875
00:45:54,000 --> 00:45:56,799
Speaker 1: sitting or lying down. Second, pick something to focus on,

876
00:45:56,880 --> 00:45:59,480
Speaker 1: like your breath or the feeling of your body. And

877
00:45:59,520 --> 00:46:01,839
Speaker 1: then the step is the most important because as soon

878
00:46:01,840 --> 00:46:04,600
Speaker 1: as you try to do this, your mind is likely

879
00:46:04,640 --> 00:46:06,920
Speaker 1: to go into mutiny mode. You're having in all these

880
00:46:07,000 --> 00:46:11,320
Speaker 1: random thoughts and urges and emotions, and at this moment,

881
00:46:11,520 --> 00:46:14,479
Speaker 1: the voice in people's heads often swoops in and tells

882
00:46:14,520 --> 00:46:16,560
Speaker 1: them and this whole story about how they're failed meditators.

883
00:46:16,600 --> 00:46:19,080
Speaker 1: I mean, you were talking about this earlier, but that

884
00:46:19,239 --> 00:46:22,239
Speaker 1: voice is wrong. The whole goal in meditation is just

885
00:46:22,280 --> 00:46:24,720
Speaker 1: to notice that you've become distracted and to start again

886
00:46:25,080 --> 00:46:28,200
Speaker 1: and again and again. And the waking up from distraction

887
00:46:28,880 --> 00:46:30,880
Speaker 1: is not proof of failure. It's actually a proof of

888
00:46:30,920 --> 00:46:33,960
Speaker 1: success because the whole goal here is to get more

889
00:46:34,000 --> 00:46:37,839
Speaker 1: familiar with this inner conversation that we're all having, this

890
00:46:37,920 --> 00:46:40,279
Speaker 1: inner narrator that is chasing us out of bed in

891
00:46:40,320 --> 00:46:43,040
Speaker 1: the morning and is yammering at us all day long.

892
00:46:43,520 --> 00:46:46,520
Speaker 1: You just want to get more familiar with this cacophony

893
00:46:46,880 --> 00:46:48,919
Speaker 1: so that it doesn't own you as much. So it's

894
00:46:48,920 --> 00:46:51,600
Speaker 1: really that simple. Pick one thing to focus on, usually

895
00:46:51,600 --> 00:46:54,479
Speaker 1: the breath. Then in a few seconds in you'll start

896
00:46:54,480 --> 00:46:56,719
Speaker 1: having random thoughts about like what kind of bird was

897
00:46:56,719 --> 00:46:59,399
Speaker 1: big bird? Or you know where do gerbils run wild? Whatever,

898
00:46:59,680 --> 00:47:02,480
Speaker 1: as random thoughts. As soon as you wake up from

899
00:47:02,480 --> 00:47:05,040
Speaker 1: those thoughts, blow them a kiss and go back to

900
00:47:05,080 --> 00:47:07,160
Speaker 1: the breath. Back to the breath, over and over and

901
00:47:07,200 --> 00:47:09,920
Speaker 1: over again. And that's like a bicep curl for your brain.

902
00:47:09,960 --> 00:47:11,960
Speaker 1: And that's what we see on the brain scans of

903
00:47:11,960 --> 00:47:14,320
Speaker 1: people who meditate, that the area of the brain associated

904
00:47:14,360 --> 00:47:18,600
Speaker 1: with attention or focus changes in a positive way. Meanwhile,

905
00:47:18,640 --> 00:47:21,960
Speaker 1: the area of the brain associated with stress shrinks. And

906
00:47:22,680 --> 00:47:26,879
Speaker 1: this is an exercise that anybody can do. I will

907
00:47:26,920 --> 00:47:30,360
Speaker 1: say small asterisk. If you have significant mental health challenges

908
00:47:30,440 --> 00:47:32,839
Speaker 1: or trauma, it might be good to do it under

909
00:47:32,880 --> 00:47:35,719
Speaker 1: the supervision of a mental health professional, but other than that,

910
00:47:35,840 --> 00:47:38,799
Speaker 1: it really is universally accessible. It doesn't matter what your

911
00:47:38,800 --> 00:47:41,560
Speaker 1: religious beliefs are, or if, like me, you're an agnostic.

912
00:47:42,160 --> 00:47:44,560
Speaker 1: This is simple secular exercise for your brain.

913
00:47:44,680 --> 00:47:46,759
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I love what you said is that we're

914
00:47:46,840 --> 00:47:50,000
Speaker 2: really just trying to get attuned to that in a

915
00:47:50,080 --> 00:47:53,759
Speaker 2: voice that is basically telling us what to do all

916
00:47:53,840 --> 00:47:59,400
Speaker 2: day and pushing around in every direction. I find that

917
00:47:59,400 --> 00:48:04,760
Speaker 2: that voice has often led us to achieve incredible things.

918
00:48:04,800 --> 00:48:08,560
Speaker 2: That voice often leads us to achieve things and still

919
00:48:08,600 --> 00:48:12,880
Speaker 2: feel unfulfilled. That voice has almost becomes such a friend

920
00:48:13,560 --> 00:48:15,719
Speaker 2: in so many ways, and sometimes a toxic friend. It's

921
00:48:15,719 --> 00:48:18,200
Speaker 2: almost a toxic relationship we have with the voice inside

922
00:48:18,239 --> 00:48:20,160
Speaker 2: of our head where we listen to it, but we

923
00:48:20,200 --> 00:48:22,200
Speaker 2: don't always like it. But sometimes it helps us win,

924
00:48:22,280 --> 00:48:24,680
Speaker 2: and sometimes it you know, sometimes it helps us get

925
00:48:24,719 --> 00:48:26,919
Speaker 2: one up on someone and then other times it lets

926
00:48:27,000 --> 00:48:29,440
Speaker 2: us down. And it's doing all of this. It's almost like,

927
00:48:30,080 --> 00:48:32,960
Speaker 2: I think, like a toxic relationship. We're scared of letting

928
00:48:32,960 --> 00:48:34,799
Speaker 2: go of that voice because it's almost like, what do

929
00:48:34,840 --> 00:48:36,880
Speaker 2: I replace it with? Yes, I'm just going to be alone.

930
00:48:37,280 --> 00:48:39,640
Speaker 1: Well, a couple things to say about that. One is

931
00:48:39,760 --> 00:48:43,320
Speaker 1: there are many voices. I mean, one of the theories

932
00:48:43,320 --> 00:48:47,600
Speaker 1: of modern psychological theories is called the modular model of mind.

933
00:48:47,640 --> 00:48:48,720
Speaker 3: That we have these modes.

934
00:48:48,840 --> 00:48:51,720
Speaker 1: I kind of think about it like you remember magic

935
00:48:51,760 --> 00:48:57,640
Speaker 1: eight balls. I still love that, And the tiles compete

936
00:48:58,080 --> 00:49:00,640
Speaker 1: for the top space that you that and then we'll

937
00:49:00,680 --> 00:49:01,800
Speaker 1: send you a message or whatever.

938
00:49:02,360 --> 00:49:04,160
Speaker 3: So we have a bunch of tiles in our head

939
00:49:04,200 --> 00:49:04,880
Speaker 3: and they're all.

940
00:49:04,680 --> 00:49:08,279
Speaker 1: Competing for that little for the steering wheel, right, And

941
00:49:08,360 --> 00:49:10,799
Speaker 1: so I've got a jealous mode, an angry mode, a

942
00:49:10,840 --> 00:49:14,400
Speaker 1: fearful mode, a self critical mode, and I think often

943
00:49:14,440 --> 00:49:16,720
Speaker 1: the self critical mode is the one with a steering wheel.

944
00:49:17,080 --> 00:49:20,040
Speaker 1: But you have a wise mode, a generous mode, a

945
00:49:20,080 --> 00:49:25,240
Speaker 1: compassionate mode, and they're often just not getting that much airtime.

946
00:49:25,640 --> 00:49:32,040
Speaker 1: And there are ways through meditation, through therapy, being in nature,

947
00:49:32,800 --> 00:49:37,240
Speaker 1: exercise that can bring the healthier tiles to the surface.

948
00:49:37,680 --> 00:49:41,640
Speaker 1: And so that's just one thing to say. And then

949
00:49:41,680 --> 00:49:44,800
Speaker 1: the other thing to say is that, yeah, it's true

950
00:49:44,800 --> 00:49:48,200
Speaker 1: that this self criticism. We're scared that if we let

951
00:49:48,239 --> 00:49:50,759
Speaker 1: it go, that will be on the couch eating ice

952
00:49:50,800 --> 00:49:53,160
Speaker 1: cream until the end of time. And that's just not

953
00:49:53,360 --> 00:49:57,759
Speaker 1: what's going to happen. Back to Tibetan Buddhism, and I'm

954
00:49:57,760 --> 00:50:00,000
Speaker 1: not an expert in it, but they have this expression

955
00:50:00,160 --> 00:50:03,439
Speaker 1: that I have a couple of colleagues wh are sitting

956
00:50:03,480 --> 00:50:05,160
Speaker 1: on a couch over here who have heard me say

957
00:50:05,160 --> 00:50:07,600
Speaker 1: this a million times, but I really love this. This

958
00:50:08,440 --> 00:50:11,800
Speaker 1: there's the Tibetan word for enlightenment. As far as I

959
00:50:11,880 --> 00:50:16,319
Speaker 1: understand it roughly translates into a clearing away and a

960
00:50:16,360 --> 00:50:22,759
Speaker 1: bringing forth. You clear away the noise of our All

961
00:50:22,760 --> 00:50:26,440
Speaker 1: of our demons are unhelpful demons. What can come out

962
00:50:27,560 --> 00:50:31,040
Speaker 1: is what is already there in all of us, which

963
00:50:31,080 --> 00:50:32,680
Speaker 1: is the good stuff.

964
00:50:33,080 --> 00:50:33,319
Speaker 3: You know.

965
00:50:33,719 --> 00:50:36,920
Speaker 1: You might use the word the loaded word love, and

966
00:50:36,960 --> 00:50:38,920
Speaker 1: I think of love as like sort of an overarching

967
00:50:39,000 --> 00:50:45,239
Speaker 1: term that encompasses things like generosity, compassion, kindness, patience, ethics,

968
00:50:45,880 --> 00:50:48,719
Speaker 1: and that is in us. Of course, it's in us

969
00:50:48,760 --> 00:50:51,640
Speaker 1: because back to evolution as a social species, we needed

970
00:50:51,640 --> 00:50:54,719
Speaker 1: all that stuff in order to cooperate and collaborate and

971
00:50:54,719 --> 00:50:58,000
Speaker 1: become the apex predator on the planet. And when you

972
00:50:58,120 --> 00:51:01,760
Speaker 1: turn the volume down on the shittier aspects of our nature,

973
00:51:02,120 --> 00:51:05,839
Speaker 1: the good stuff will come out. And it's it's it

974
00:51:05,920 --> 00:51:08,919
Speaker 1: has an edge. It has the edge that you want.

975
00:51:09,040 --> 00:51:12,279
Speaker 1: It does want to create beautiful and important things in

976
00:51:12,280 --> 00:51:14,759
Speaker 1: the world. It does want to take care of you too,

977
00:51:14,920 --> 00:51:17,319
Speaker 1: as well as it wants to take care of everybody

978
00:51:17,640 --> 00:51:20,920
Speaker 1: it it does. It does want to stand up to injustice.

979
00:51:21,320 --> 00:51:24,279
Speaker 1: It does want to be tough, but not motivated by

980
00:51:24,320 --> 00:51:27,840
Speaker 1: hatred instead by the good stuff, which is like giving

981
00:51:27,840 --> 00:51:32,560
Speaker 1: a shit caring anyway. That's that's all my experience about this. Absolutely,

982
00:51:32,680 --> 00:51:35,800
Speaker 1: and you're not. I'm not perfect at it by any stretch.

983
00:51:36,440 --> 00:51:38,360
Speaker 1: I mean I've been. I made a reference to the

984
00:51:38,680 --> 00:51:40,239
Speaker 1: Liz a TONI were sitting in the room with us,

985
00:51:40,280 --> 00:51:42,480
Speaker 1: like give them the mic. They'll tell you, you know

986
00:51:43,000 --> 00:51:44,400
Speaker 1: ninety still a moron.

987
00:51:44,440 --> 00:51:47,120
Speaker 2: Absolutely, no, no, no, But but I love the idea

988
00:51:47,160 --> 00:51:51,680
Speaker 2: of how we're simply reconnecting with and reawakening something we've forgotten.

989
00:51:52,080 --> 00:51:56,080
Speaker 2: So it's almost like we're associating with that angry mode,

990
00:51:56,120 --> 00:51:59,520
Speaker 2: that envy mode, that jealousy mode, that ego mode every day,

991
00:52:00,040 --> 00:52:02,640
Speaker 2: and so we've started to accept that it's our reality

992
00:52:02,680 --> 00:52:05,640
Speaker 2: and normality. Whereas you said, we do also have a

993
00:52:05,680 --> 00:52:09,919
Speaker 2: wise mode. It's just that we haven't experienced it either

994
00:52:09,960 --> 00:52:11,839
Speaker 2: outside of us or inside of us for so long

995
00:52:11,880 --> 00:52:14,120
Speaker 2: that we've forgotten it's there. But it is there, it

996
00:52:14,200 --> 00:52:18,320
Speaker 2: is accessible, And I think that is not only true

997
00:52:18,600 --> 00:52:20,880
Speaker 2: based on the wisdom traditions we've studied, but it's also

998
00:52:20,960 --> 00:52:24,600
Speaker 2: empowering to recognize that this isn't something new you're having

999
00:52:24,600 --> 00:52:27,920
Speaker 2: to figure out or develop. It's an ability that almost

1000
00:52:27,920 --> 00:52:31,560
Speaker 2: exists within you already that has just been buried and

1001
00:52:31,600 --> 00:52:36,000
Speaker 2: covered over by all these other layers of identification and impurities.

1002
00:52:36,120 --> 00:52:36,520
Speaker 3: Exactly.

1003
00:52:36,719 --> 00:52:38,919
Speaker 2: You've been so vulnerable a couple of times to mention

1004
00:52:39,040 --> 00:52:41,360
Speaker 2: this thing inside of you as an anger mode. You

1005
00:52:41,400 --> 00:52:43,040
Speaker 2: were saying earlier you have two modes, and one of

1006
00:52:43,040 --> 00:52:46,560
Speaker 2: them was anger. And I wanted, if it's okay, to

1007
00:52:47,360 --> 00:52:50,080
Speaker 2: kind of hone in on that, because I think that's

1008
00:52:50,080 --> 00:52:53,960
Speaker 2: something we've actually never really discussed on the podcast, in

1009
00:52:54,320 --> 00:52:57,080
Speaker 2: all the guests we've had, and I think it's something

1010
00:52:57,160 --> 00:53:01,279
Speaker 2: that often is something people are scared head of talking about.

1011
00:53:01,320 --> 00:53:04,960
Speaker 2: It's a taboo topic because of the connotations that anger

1012
00:53:05,680 --> 00:53:11,560
Speaker 2: is associated with. And I was wondering how as meditation

1013
00:53:11,719 --> 00:53:14,719
Speaker 2: and mindfulness, what have they shown you or helped you

1014
00:53:14,840 --> 00:53:18,279
Speaker 2: understand about anger? Because I think I think our mind

1015
00:53:18,320 --> 00:53:20,240
Speaker 2: often goes to what I want to stop being angry,

1016
00:53:20,320 --> 00:53:22,680
Speaker 2: rather than I want to understand anger. And I think

1017
00:53:22,719 --> 00:53:25,440
Speaker 2: this is so true for so many things in society.

1018
00:53:25,520 --> 00:53:29,160
Speaker 2: We're like, I wish that would just stop. And it's

1019
00:53:29,160 --> 00:53:31,200
Speaker 2: almost like, well, before it stops, we may need to

1020
00:53:31,239 --> 00:53:33,239
Speaker 2: get to know it a bit better and understand it

1021
00:53:33,280 --> 00:53:35,719
Speaker 2: and befriend it. Going back to the high five point

1022
00:53:35,760 --> 00:53:38,520
Speaker 2: you made earlier, and so I thought, let's start with

1023
00:53:38,560 --> 00:53:39,200
Speaker 2: anger for that.

1024
00:53:39,320 --> 00:53:39,560
Speaker 3: Sure.

1025
00:53:39,600 --> 00:53:42,200
Speaker 1: I mean, there's this great I know you know who

1026
00:53:42,200 --> 00:53:45,439
Speaker 1: he is, but there's this great Vietnamese zen master, tiknat Han,

1027
00:53:45,480 --> 00:53:49,839
Speaker 1: and I love he has this this expression about like

1028
00:53:50,200 --> 00:53:52,040
Speaker 1: holding your anger like a.

1029
00:53:52,200 --> 00:53:52,800
Speaker 3: Like a baby.

1030
00:53:53,760 --> 00:53:57,040
Speaker 1: I don't love that because I'm such an anti sentimentalist,

1031
00:53:57,080 --> 00:54:00,800
Speaker 1: and I you know, I find it like sohat annoying.

1032
00:54:01,320 --> 00:54:05,160
Speaker 1: Even though he's completely right. He's a genius, or was

1033
00:54:05,200 --> 00:54:08,879
Speaker 1: a genius he passed recently. There's something to that. First

1034
00:54:08,920 --> 00:54:10,880
Speaker 1: of all, the anger is trying to tell you something.

1035
00:54:12,160 --> 00:54:19,959
Speaker 1: In my case, it's like some infantile usually desire to protect.

1036
00:54:19,680 --> 00:54:21,959
Speaker 3: Myself and.

1037
00:54:23,280 --> 00:54:27,960
Speaker 1: Often it's Sometimes anger has been described as a secondary emotion,

1038
00:54:28,520 --> 00:54:31,680
Speaker 1: so it's an emotion that's covering up for another emotion.

1039
00:54:32,080 --> 00:54:35,799
Speaker 1: And for my case, it's usually fear. So I'm a

1040
00:54:35,840 --> 00:54:40,840
Speaker 1: guy and we don't like to admit fear. And often

1041
00:54:40,880 --> 00:54:43,239
Speaker 1: if I look closely, if I hold the anger like

1042
00:54:43,280 --> 00:54:47,800
Speaker 1: a like a crying child, if I get over myself

1043
00:54:47,800 --> 00:54:50,320
Speaker 1: and do the thing that the wise person has mentioned

1044
00:54:50,360 --> 00:54:53,640
Speaker 1: that we should probably do, I actually see, oh yeah,

1045
00:54:54,080 --> 00:54:57,760
Speaker 1: I'm scared of something here. And that's really helpful because

1046
00:54:57,840 --> 00:55:01,439
Speaker 1: then I can I can respond wisely to the thing

1047
00:55:01,480 --> 00:55:05,880
Speaker 1: that's making me angry slash scared, rather than reacting blindly.

1048
00:55:06,640 --> 00:55:11,200
Speaker 1: There's a difference between healthy anger and destructive anger. Again,

1049
00:55:11,239 --> 00:55:12,759
Speaker 1: this is not my insight. This is the way in

1050
00:55:12,880 --> 00:55:16,080
Speaker 1: psychological circles they talk about it. Healthy anger is that

1051
00:55:16,160 --> 00:55:18,239
Speaker 1: can get you off the couch to do something about

1052
00:55:18,280 --> 00:55:21,200
Speaker 1: a problem, and it's clarifying it.

1053
00:55:21,200 --> 00:55:21,759
Speaker 3: It can help.

1054
00:55:21,920 --> 00:55:26,160
Speaker 1: Healthy anger can help us see clearly where somebody's full

1055
00:55:26,200 --> 00:55:29,279
Speaker 1: of shit. Although there's a reason why we talk about

1056
00:55:29,320 --> 00:55:31,719
Speaker 1: anger as seeing read because it can also be you know,

1057
00:55:31,880 --> 00:55:36,360
Speaker 1: blind with blind rage. And so that's the destructive anger,

1058
00:55:36,400 --> 00:55:42,120
Speaker 1: which where that's an anger fueled by hatred fueled by bias, bigotry,

1059
00:55:43,360 --> 00:55:49,160
Speaker 1: and it can get us into endless conflict, and that's

1060
00:55:49,160 --> 00:55:51,920
Speaker 1: what you want to avoid. That's what I've failed to

1061
00:55:51,960 --> 00:55:55,919
Speaker 1: avoid for too many times in my own life and

1062
00:55:56,640 --> 00:56:01,600
Speaker 1: still screw that up, you know, regularly. But it's nothing

1063
00:56:01,640 --> 00:56:06,200
Speaker 1: can happen until you identify the problem. You talked about

1064
00:56:06,200 --> 00:56:07,560
Speaker 1: this earlier, you know, like one of the things that

1065
00:56:07,600 --> 00:56:09,680
Speaker 1: meditation does for you is it helps you be aware

1066
00:56:09,760 --> 00:56:12,359
Speaker 1: of stuff so that you can work with it. And

1067
00:56:13,040 --> 00:56:15,080
Speaker 1: so yeah, this is one of my big things that

1068
00:56:15,120 --> 00:56:15,839
Speaker 1: I have to work with.

1069
00:56:16,120 --> 00:56:20,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, thank you for sharing that. No, I really value

1070
00:56:20,360 --> 00:56:24,000
Speaker 2: that understanding of the difference in the two angers that

1071
00:56:24,080 --> 00:56:29,520
Speaker 2: you just mentioned there. But also yeah, just being able

1072
00:56:29,560 --> 00:56:33,600
Speaker 2: to recognize the fear that sits beneath it. And I can.

1073
00:56:33,840 --> 00:56:38,640
Speaker 2: When I get agitated or irritated, it's always because there's

1074
00:56:38,680 --> 00:56:41,680
Speaker 2: something I'm fearful of, and often it's even the fear

1075
00:56:41,680 --> 00:56:45,840
Speaker 2: of messing up. You know. It's for me, I'm thinking

1076
00:56:45,880 --> 00:56:48,600
Speaker 2: of when I'm asked a question and I feel like

1077
00:56:48,640 --> 00:56:50,640
Speaker 2: I don't have any enough time to solve it, and

1078
00:56:50,640 --> 00:56:52,680
Speaker 2: then I'm like, oh, just you know whatever, Like that

1079
00:56:52,760 --> 00:56:55,960
Speaker 2: kind of agitation, that irritation comes out, and really it's

1080
00:56:56,000 --> 00:56:57,839
Speaker 2: a fear of I'm like, I wish we had more time,

1081
00:56:57,880 --> 00:56:59,520
Speaker 2: I would be able to solve this, like I don't

1082
00:56:59,520 --> 00:57:00,759
Speaker 2: want to mess up. I don't want to give it

1083
00:57:00,760 --> 00:57:04,320
Speaker 2: and so and it's so interesting that what is actually

1084
00:57:04,320 --> 00:57:07,399
Speaker 2: well intentioned of a desire to want to get things

1085
00:57:07,480 --> 00:57:12,560
Speaker 2: right turns out to be experienced as that. And like

1086
00:57:12,640 --> 00:57:14,920
Speaker 2: you said, and like you mentioned Tikna Hunt said of

1087
00:57:15,000 --> 00:57:16,760
Speaker 2: being able to hold it as a baby or being

1088
00:57:16,800 --> 00:57:22,439
Speaker 2: able to Yeah, it's almost like it's so interesting though

1089
00:57:22,480 --> 00:57:24,800
Speaker 2: what you said about the not the skepticism that you have,

1090
00:57:24,880 --> 00:57:28,360
Speaker 2: but the you know, you were saying, the overly sentimental

1091
00:57:28,440 --> 00:57:30,680
Speaker 2: version of holding a baby. And I think often that

1092
00:57:30,880 --> 00:57:33,880
Speaker 2: is the perspective people have of these ideas, right with mindfulness,

1093
00:57:33,880 --> 00:57:37,000
Speaker 2: with meditation, that oh, it's sentimental, it's a bit fluffy,

1094
00:57:37,080 --> 00:57:39,160
Speaker 2: it's a bit woo and we know there's science behind

1095
00:57:39,200 --> 00:57:41,800
Speaker 2: it now and those those days should be gone, but

1096
00:57:41,840 --> 00:57:45,240
Speaker 2: they're not, because there's still a skepticism and cynicism around

1097
00:57:45,280 --> 00:57:47,920
Speaker 2: the idea of like, oh, yeah, my fear is like whatever,

1098
00:57:48,000 --> 00:57:50,480
Speaker 2: there's no fear, right, because that in and of itself

1099
00:57:50,600 --> 00:57:53,560
Speaker 2: is trying to protect us from or trying to protect

1100
00:57:53,640 --> 00:57:57,160
Speaker 2: us from our fear. And so how have you seen

1101
00:57:57,200 --> 00:57:59,480
Speaker 2: in others and how have you and yourself been able

1102
00:57:59,520 --> 00:58:03,840
Speaker 2: to catch yourself double bluffing yourself or when you're almost

1103
00:58:04,080 --> 00:58:07,880
Speaker 2: you know, you're finding that way around doing the actual work.

1104
00:58:08,480 --> 00:58:12,000
Speaker 1: One of the biggest and most reliable sources of feedback

1105
00:58:12,040 --> 00:58:20,120
Speaker 1: for me is defensiveness or dismissiveness. If I am dismissing

1106
00:58:20,160 --> 00:58:23,840
Speaker 1: something out of hand, it's usually something I should listen to.

1107
00:58:24,120 --> 00:58:26,760
Speaker 1: And if I'm getting defensive, it's because it's something I

1108
00:58:26,800 --> 00:58:29,000
Speaker 1: know I should hear that I'm unwilling to hear at

1109
00:58:29,000 --> 00:58:34,280
Speaker 1: that moment. And I almost never catch I almost never

1110
00:58:34,360 --> 00:58:35,200
Speaker 1: catch it in the moment.

1111
00:58:35,560 --> 00:58:37,320
Speaker 3: I almost never catch it in the moment.

1112
00:58:37,400 --> 00:58:40,720
Speaker 1: But it's usually when I feel embarrassed the next day.

1113
00:58:40,960 --> 00:58:43,320
Speaker 1: You know, it's like, it's just I keep coming back

1114
00:58:43,360 --> 00:58:45,760
Speaker 1: to this, you know, I'm so pissed that this person

1115
00:58:45,760 --> 00:58:46,280
Speaker 1: said this thing.

1116
00:58:46,400 --> 00:58:47,800
Speaker 3: Is like, ah shit, they're probably right.

1117
00:58:49,320 --> 00:58:51,520
Speaker 1: And so I actually got an email the other day

1118
00:58:51,520 --> 00:58:53,560
Speaker 1: from I won't say her name because she didn't give

1119
00:58:53,600 --> 00:58:56,240
Speaker 1: me permission, but from a great meditation teacher who was

1120
00:58:56,280 --> 00:58:59,200
Speaker 1: talking to me about something, and she I didn't recall

1121
00:58:59,240 --> 00:59:02,240
Speaker 1: her getting defensive. She recalled herself getting defensive about something

1122
00:59:02,280 --> 00:59:04,439
Speaker 1: that I was pushing her on something, and she wrote

1123
00:59:04,480 --> 00:59:07,160
Speaker 1: me an email the next station is like, I woke

1124
00:59:07,280 --> 00:59:09,919
Speaker 1: up thinking about how I was defensive and that means

1125
00:59:09,920 --> 00:59:11,720
Speaker 1: eitherre's something I really need to listen to there, So

1126
00:59:11,720 --> 00:59:13,520
Speaker 1: I'm going to go in the direction you push me.

1127
00:59:13,560 --> 00:59:17,160
Speaker 1: And that's that's usually how I get past the double bluff.

1128
00:59:18,560 --> 00:59:21,360
Speaker 2: Yeah. I think for me, it comes out in if

1129
00:59:21,360 --> 00:59:24,680
Speaker 2: I'm judging someone, so fund that if I'm judging someone

1130
00:59:24,720 --> 00:59:28,760
Speaker 2: that there's a sense of truth that that exists within

1131
00:59:28,840 --> 00:59:31,800
Speaker 2: me somewhere, and so I need to explore that that

1132
00:59:31,920 --> 00:59:35,360
Speaker 2: which I'm judging in someone else. And I've been working

1133
00:59:35,400 --> 00:59:38,880
Speaker 2: on that one, and that's the hardest one, and.

1134
00:59:39,120 --> 00:59:43,200
Speaker 1: It's the most embarrassing too, because it's like you it

1135
00:59:43,240 --> 00:59:45,640
Speaker 1: feels good to point at the other person there's such

1136
00:59:45,680 --> 00:59:48,840
Speaker 1: a schmuck or whatever, but like, of course you're seeing

1137
00:59:48,880 --> 00:59:52,240
Speaker 1: it so clearly, and you hate it so much because

1138
00:59:52,640 --> 00:59:53,560
Speaker 1: it's it's in you.

1139
00:59:54,000 --> 00:59:56,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, And it's so funny because when you see in them,

1140
00:59:56,360 --> 00:59:58,680
Speaker 2: you're like, how can they not be aware that they're

1141
00:59:58,800 --> 01:00:01,720
Speaker 2: like that? At the same time, you're talking about yourself

1142
01:00:01,760 --> 01:00:04,040
Speaker 2: and you know you've recognized you're not you're not even

1143
01:00:04,040 --> 01:00:06,240
Speaker 2: aware when you're like that. And I think that's where

1144
01:00:06,240 --> 01:00:09,840
Speaker 2: I notice where I'm where it's easy to double bluff

1145
01:00:09,920 --> 01:00:13,040
Speaker 2: myself and I have to be conscious of That goes

1146
01:00:13,040 --> 01:00:15,520
Speaker 2: along your lines too. It's that you're building a story

1147
01:00:15,680 --> 01:00:19,920
Speaker 2: to support your view without evidence and without research and

1148
01:00:20,000 --> 01:00:24,800
Speaker 2: without looking at all of the facts, and you know

1149
01:00:24,880 --> 01:00:27,200
Speaker 2: you've you've created a story that makes sense to you

1150
01:00:27,240 --> 01:00:32,760
Speaker 2: in order to fulfill your your desire, whatever that may be.

1151
01:00:32,920 --> 01:00:35,200
Speaker 2: And then you're not forced to actually look at yourself.

1152
01:00:35,400 --> 01:00:41,720
Speaker 1: There's a great expression. If it's hysterical, it's historical. You know,

1153
01:00:41,800 --> 01:00:47,000
Speaker 1: it's like you're getting hysterical about something. There's some it's

1154
01:00:47,040 --> 01:00:50,600
Speaker 1: some deep programming. And yeah, I hate admitting that.

1155
01:00:52,520 --> 01:00:54,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think we're both we're both going back and

1156
01:00:54,240 --> 01:00:57,000
Speaker 2: forth admitting all of our admitting all of our flaws

1157
01:00:57,040 --> 01:01:00,880
Speaker 2: and challenges and issues. But but that's well, meditation does

1158
01:01:00,960 --> 01:01:06,840
Speaker 2: right that this is actually what's transpired without without intention

1159
01:01:07,480 --> 01:01:11,480
Speaker 2: or maybe with intention. But actually this is the benefit

1160
01:01:11,880 --> 01:01:17,560
Speaker 2: of practicing mindfulness of meditation is a really healthy relationship

1161
01:01:17,880 --> 01:01:20,240
Speaker 2: with all of your imperfections.

1162
01:01:20,480 --> 01:01:22,200
Speaker 1: I mean, you interview all sorts of people, but you

1163
01:01:22,240 --> 01:01:26,000
Speaker 1: interview a lot of like great folks from the meditation world,

1164
01:01:26,440 --> 01:01:29,760
Speaker 1: and so do why and so in my experience, the

1165
01:01:29,840 --> 01:01:34,280
Speaker 1: common denominator among all of the great like spiritual masters, right,

1166
01:01:34,920 --> 01:01:37,240
Speaker 1: if that's a term that you're okay with, the common

1167
01:01:37,240 --> 01:01:40,439
Speaker 1: denominator is they all have a sense of humor. Yes,

1168
01:01:40,560 --> 01:01:44,600
Speaker 1: how can you look at this mind without laughing? After all,

1169
01:01:45,160 --> 01:01:48,880
Speaker 1: the word that my meditation teacher, Joseph Goldstein uses most

1170
01:01:48,880 --> 01:01:51,320
Speaker 1: frequently is ridiculous.

1171
01:01:51,400 --> 01:01:53,520
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, because we're ridiculous.

1172
01:01:53,800 --> 01:01:57,080
Speaker 1: You were ridiculous, And it's just it's so healthy to

1173
01:01:57,160 --> 01:01:58,280
Speaker 1: see that and laugh at it.

1174
01:01:58,520 --> 01:02:01,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, definitely. Yeah. Teachers would obviously always talk about the

1175
01:02:01,720 --> 01:02:06,400
Speaker 2: monkey mind. Yes, and although that's somewhat of a alien

1176
01:02:06,440 --> 01:02:09,640
Speaker 2: analogy to some degree at least when you've grown up

1177
01:02:09,720 --> 01:02:12,200
Speaker 2: in England or in the US, because you're not seeing

1178
01:02:12,240 --> 01:02:14,400
Speaker 2: monkeys all the time. But when I have gone to

1179
01:02:14,400 --> 01:02:18,640
Speaker 2: certain spiritual sites in India that are, you know, infiltrated

1180
01:02:18,680 --> 01:02:22,040
Speaker 2: with monkeys, it will only make you laugh. Like I've

1181
01:02:22,080 --> 01:02:26,280
Speaker 2: seen monkeys, you know, rip bags to steal fruit. I've

1182
01:02:26,320 --> 01:02:30,640
Speaker 2: seen monkeys steal people's sunglasses and then trade it back

1183
01:02:30,680 --> 01:02:35,440
Speaker 2: for food. I've seen I've seen monkeys steal credit cards

1184
01:02:35,560 --> 01:02:38,760
Speaker 2: like and and know how to bather for what they want,

1185
01:02:38,840 --> 01:02:42,120
Speaker 2: Like I've seen monkeys put in sunglasses like all you

1186
01:02:42,160 --> 01:02:43,480
Speaker 2: need to do. I mean me and my wife ind

1187
01:02:43,480 --> 01:02:45,840
Speaker 2: A Barley this year and we went to the monkey

1188
01:02:45,880 --> 01:02:49,120
Speaker 2: forest there and the monkeys are just hilarious. And ridiculous

1189
01:02:49,160 --> 01:02:51,640
Speaker 2: is the word. And it's almost that when you start

1190
01:02:51,720 --> 01:02:55,680
Speaker 2: seeing the habits of the mind as a monkey, it's

1191
01:02:55,760 --> 01:02:58,360
Speaker 2: so easy to laugh at it because you just realize

1192
01:02:58,360 --> 01:03:01,760
Speaker 2: how ridiculous it is, and how how hilarious they are,

1193
01:03:01,840 --> 01:03:04,560
Speaker 2: and how uncontrollable they are, as opposed to looking at

1194
01:03:04,560 --> 01:03:08,160
Speaker 2: it as this thing like almost like a Rubik's cube,

1195
01:03:08,200 --> 01:03:10,880
Speaker 2: which we sometimes see as and you get frustrated trying

1196
01:03:10,880 --> 01:03:13,280
Speaker 2: to figure it out. Espison, when you look at a monkey,

1197
01:03:13,320 --> 01:03:14,760
Speaker 2: you go, well, a monkey's going to be a monkey.

1198
01:03:15,000 --> 01:03:18,120
Speaker 2: So I'm not surprised when my mind is ridiculous. I'm

1199
01:03:18,160 --> 01:03:21,720
Speaker 2: not expecting my mind to be this. You know, you're

1200
01:03:21,720 --> 01:03:23,680
Speaker 2: never looking at a monkey expecting it to be sitting

1201
01:03:23,720 --> 01:03:26,320
Speaker 2: there meditag on top of a rock. You're expecting to

1202
01:03:26,320 --> 01:03:29,200
Speaker 2: see a monkey jump from branch to branch and swing

1203
01:03:29,280 --> 01:03:31,680
Speaker 2: and you know, whatever else it may be. And all

1204
01:03:31,720 --> 01:03:33,520
Speaker 2: of a sudden when you can and you have to

1205
01:03:33,520 --> 01:03:36,000
Speaker 2: have had the real experience of that in order to

1206
01:03:36,880 --> 01:03:39,439
Speaker 2: even have that really sit and like if I hadn't seen.

1207
01:03:40,160 --> 01:03:41,280
Speaker 2: And then a couple of years ago I went to

1208
01:03:41,360 --> 01:03:43,520
Speaker 2: Rwanda and we treked with gorillas, and we saw the

1209
01:03:43,560 --> 01:03:46,520
Speaker 2: little baby gorillas who were just playful and silly, and

1210
01:03:46,560 --> 01:03:48,840
Speaker 2: the sound of their laugh and and just what they

1211
01:03:48,880 --> 01:03:51,400
Speaker 2: were like, and you just start to recognize you need.

1212
01:03:51,640 --> 01:03:53,640
Speaker 2: This is why what you just said earlier, you mentioned

1213
01:03:53,680 --> 01:03:57,880
Speaker 2: it passively, but observing nature is such a beautiful way

1214
01:03:57,920 --> 01:04:01,959
Speaker 2: of understanding ourselves. And again going back to your earliest point,

1215
01:04:02,000 --> 01:04:06,560
Speaker 2: our disconnection from each other in nature means we're only

1216
01:04:06,640 --> 01:04:11,160
Speaker 2: seeing systems and machines and the way systems and machines work,

1217
01:04:11,800 --> 01:04:14,040
Speaker 2: and now our expectation of our mind to work the

1218
01:04:14,080 --> 01:04:16,280
Speaker 2: same way. I want to turn my mind off and

1219
01:04:16,320 --> 01:04:18,680
Speaker 2: I want to turn my mind on, because we've seen

1220
01:04:18,720 --> 01:04:20,600
Speaker 2: the system of on and off on a light switch,

1221
01:04:20,640 --> 01:04:23,760
Speaker 2: to a phone, to a tablet for so many years

1222
01:04:23,800 --> 01:04:26,120
Speaker 2: now that we've lost the idea of wait a minute,

1223
01:04:26,160 --> 01:04:29,040
Speaker 2: the sun sets and the sun rises, but it doesn't

1224
01:04:29,280 --> 01:04:33,880
Speaker 2: sun off and sun on, and we've lost that concept

1225
01:04:34,080 --> 01:04:36,640
Speaker 2: of there is no instant on and off, and there

1226
01:04:36,680 --> 01:04:40,800
Speaker 2: is no instant switch there is only nature doing its

1227
01:04:40,840 --> 01:04:45,800
Speaker 2: cycle and its phases and its rituals, almost.

1228
01:04:45,680 --> 01:04:47,880
Speaker 1: To pick up on the instant part of it, you know.

1229
01:04:48,200 --> 01:04:49,640
Speaker 1: It kind of takes me back to the first question

1230
01:04:49,680 --> 01:04:52,240
Speaker 1: you asked around stress, and we talked about some of

1231
01:04:52,240 --> 01:04:55,520
Speaker 1: the contributors. I think one of the contributors is that

1232
01:04:56,040 --> 01:04:57,920
Speaker 1: we live in a world that doesn't have enough friction.

1233
01:04:58,600 --> 01:05:01,960
Speaker 1: That we've created a world for young people. And to me,

1234
01:05:02,080 --> 01:05:05,360
Speaker 1: you're a young person, but because I'm in my fifties

1235
01:05:05,400 --> 01:05:06,840
Speaker 1: and you're in your thirties, but I have a nine

1236
01:05:06,880 --> 01:05:10,200
Speaker 1: year old who's a much younger person, and we you know,

1237
01:05:10,200 --> 01:05:12,680
Speaker 1: there's a way that older people can blame younger people

1238
01:05:13,080 --> 01:05:17,000
Speaker 1: for their oh this generation or kids today or whatever.

1239
01:05:17,040 --> 01:05:19,400
Speaker 1: But this is a world we've created for them where

1240
01:05:19,480 --> 01:05:21,760
Speaker 1: there isn't a lot of friction. You can get everything

1241
01:05:21,800 --> 01:05:26,120
Speaker 1: you want on demand. And as a consequence, people are

1242
01:05:26,160 --> 01:05:29,720
Speaker 1: intolerant of discomfort, and that is creating a lot of

1243
01:05:29,760 --> 01:05:33,720
Speaker 1: anxiety because life is uncomfortable and there are going to

1244
01:05:33,720 --> 01:05:38,720
Speaker 1: be stressful and scary situations and your ability to thrive

1245
01:05:38,800 --> 01:05:41,200
Speaker 1: is going to be directly correlated to your ability to

1246
01:05:41,240 --> 01:05:45,920
Speaker 1: handle this. And if we don't get comfortable with discomfort,

1247
01:05:45,960 --> 01:05:47,040
Speaker 1: we're going to suffer, and.

1248
01:05:47,000 --> 01:05:48,560
Speaker 3: There are ways to work with this.

1249
01:05:48,640 --> 01:05:52,240
Speaker 1: One of them is this thing that it's a psychological

1250
01:05:52,360 --> 01:05:55,720
Speaker 1: term opposite action, you know, when you I'll give you

1251
01:05:55,760 --> 01:05:56,240
Speaker 1: an example.

1252
01:05:57,280 --> 01:05:58,920
Speaker 3: I have intense claustrophobia.

1253
01:06:00,120 --> 01:06:03,360
Speaker 1: When your colleague Jordan came to pick me up in

1254
01:06:03,440 --> 01:06:05,600
Speaker 1: the lobby of the hotel in which we're doing this

1255
01:06:05,640 --> 01:06:09,720
Speaker 1: interview and take me up the elevator, I said I

1256
01:06:09,760 --> 01:06:12,280
Speaker 1: have to ride alone because I didn't want to have

1257
01:06:12,320 --> 01:06:13,400
Speaker 1: a panic attack in front of her.

1258
01:06:14,280 --> 01:06:16,920
Speaker 3: But I got on the elevator. I didn't want to.

1259
01:06:16,960 --> 01:06:19,560
Speaker 1: I thought about walking thirty flights and I've done that before.

1260
01:06:20,160 --> 01:06:22,080
Speaker 2: Wow. Sorry, I feel terrible now.

1261
01:06:22,120 --> 01:06:25,040
Speaker 3: I wish I have set up dude.

1262
01:06:26,920 --> 01:06:30,320
Speaker 1: No, but the lesson here is that I need to

1263
01:06:30,360 --> 01:06:33,960
Speaker 1: get on elevators regularly. That's the way out of this.

1264
01:06:34,480 --> 01:06:36,960
Speaker 1: It's opposite action. I need to do the thing i'm

1265
01:06:37,000 --> 01:06:39,840
Speaker 1: scared of carefully. I don't want to give myself a

1266
01:06:39,920 --> 01:06:42,520
Speaker 1: panic attack. Although there are some people who argue that

1267
01:06:42,520 --> 01:06:44,640
Speaker 1: that is a way through this, but for me, I

1268
01:06:44,680 --> 01:06:47,120
Speaker 1: just kind of gently exposed myself to the stuff I'm

1269
01:06:47,200 --> 01:06:49,800
Speaker 1: afraid of, and so I actually look I relished the

1270
01:06:49,800 --> 01:06:52,240
Speaker 1: opportunity to get on an elevator or to take a

1271
01:06:52,240 --> 01:06:53,840
Speaker 1: subway ride. I just have to do it in the

1272
01:06:53,880 --> 01:06:57,520
Speaker 1: right circumstances. So I didn't inflict it upon Jordan. I

1273
01:06:57,560 --> 01:06:59,880
Speaker 1: just took a different elevator. And I actually think this

1274
01:07:00,240 --> 01:07:02,360
Speaker 1: is one of the this is one of the ways out,

1275
01:07:02,600 --> 01:07:05,120
Speaker 1: one of the ways out of the epidemic of stress

1276
01:07:05,160 --> 01:07:07,800
Speaker 1: and anxiety that we began this conversation with, which is

1277
01:07:08,200 --> 01:07:11,240
Speaker 1: to whatever way in your own life, to just dose

1278
01:07:11,320 --> 01:07:16,640
Speaker 1: yourself carefully and gently, with some discomfort. To take the

1279
01:07:16,680 --> 01:07:21,280
Speaker 1: opposite action, do the opposite of what you want to do,

1280
01:07:21,360 --> 01:07:24,240
Speaker 1: which may be to you know, hide from the discomfort,

1281
01:07:24,440 --> 01:07:28,160
Speaker 1: Go to that party, accept the invitation, ask that person

1282
01:07:28,200 --> 01:07:31,480
Speaker 1: out for a cup of coffee, pressed like on that

1283
01:07:31,640 --> 01:07:35,200
Speaker 1: Instagram post. You know, little steps like that will will

1284
01:07:35,240 --> 01:07:37,680
Speaker 1: equip you and arm you to move through a world

1285
01:07:37,680 --> 01:07:39,880
Speaker 1: that is largely out of your control.

1286
01:07:40,320 --> 01:07:43,040
Speaker 2: Done. Thank you so much. It's been such a joy

1287
01:07:43,080 --> 01:07:46,120
Speaker 2: talking to you today, and I've really, I've really enjoyed

1288
01:07:46,200 --> 01:07:50,960
Speaker 2: how you know, this conversation tended to the benefits of

1289
01:07:51,000 --> 01:07:54,120
Speaker 2: meditation without listing the benefits of meditation, but the u

1290
01:07:54,960 --> 01:07:58,760
Speaker 2: but the acceptance of the benefits being a deeper awareness

1291
01:07:58,800 --> 01:08:01,840
Speaker 2: of who we are. We need to improve and doing

1292
01:08:01,880 --> 01:08:07,280
Speaker 2: that with love, with kindness, with gentleness, as opposed to hate,

1293
01:08:07,960 --> 01:08:11,320
Speaker 2: pressure and stress that we often place on ourselves. But

1294
01:08:12,040 --> 01:08:15,200
Speaker 2: we end every episode with a final five, and these

1295
01:08:15,240 --> 01:08:17,320
Speaker 2: final five have to be answered in one word to

1296
01:08:17,520 --> 01:08:20,880
Speaker 2: one sentence maximum each and so Dan, these are your

1297
01:08:21,040 --> 01:08:23,320
Speaker 2: final five. The first question is what is the best

1298
01:08:23,400 --> 01:08:26,599
Speaker 2: advice about mindfulness that you've ever heard or received?

1299
01:08:27,120 --> 01:08:27,800
Speaker 3: Just start again?

1300
01:08:28,880 --> 01:08:31,360
Speaker 2: I like that, Yeah, beautiful. What is The second question

1301
01:08:31,479 --> 01:08:35,080
Speaker 2: is what is the worst advice about mindfulness or meditation

1302
01:08:35,160 --> 01:08:36,240
Speaker 2: that you've ever heard or received?

1303
01:08:36,360 --> 01:08:37,120
Speaker 3: Clear your mind.

1304
01:08:37,760 --> 01:08:44,559
Speaker 2: It's so bad. It's so bad. It's so bad, and

1305
01:08:44,640 --> 01:08:47,400
Speaker 2: it was almost marketed like that for a long time. Yes,

1306
01:08:47,439 --> 01:08:50,880
Speaker 2: for a long long time. Yeah. Question number three, how

1307
01:08:50,880 --> 01:08:52,599
Speaker 2: would you define your current purpose?

1308
01:08:53,920 --> 01:08:56,400
Speaker 3: Make awesome shit that helps people do their lives better?

1309
01:08:57,600 --> 01:09:03,280
Speaker 2: I love that? Question Number four a thought that you'd

1310
01:09:03,320 --> 01:09:04,679
Speaker 2: like to repeat more often?

1311
01:09:05,720 --> 01:09:10,960
Speaker 1: Well, I got a tattoo recently. It's an acronym ftboa B.

1312
01:09:11,920 --> 01:09:13,840
Speaker 1: It's way off brand for me in terms of like,

1313
01:09:14,200 --> 01:09:17,280
Speaker 1: it's cheesier than I like to be, but it stands.

1314
01:09:17,320 --> 01:09:19,240
Speaker 1: It's a Buddhist phrase for the benefit of all beings.

1315
01:09:20,240 --> 01:09:23,479
Speaker 1: And we talked about my anger habit. But one of

1316
01:09:23,520 --> 01:09:25,599
Speaker 1: my other habits that I also mentioned that I don't

1317
01:09:25,720 --> 01:09:28,120
Speaker 1: like is a kind of selfishness or greed, and so

1318
01:09:28,920 --> 01:09:32,240
Speaker 1: I really try to remind myself as much as possible, like, no,

1319
01:09:33,000 --> 01:09:34,360
Speaker 1: I'm answering this in more than a word.

1320
01:09:34,400 --> 01:09:36,960
Speaker 2: No, it's brilliant, it's great on.

1321
01:09:37,080 --> 01:09:39,880
Speaker 1: But I try to remind myself, Yeah, this is for

1322
01:09:39,960 --> 01:09:42,719
Speaker 1: the benefit of all beings and the a the all

1323
01:09:43,120 --> 01:09:43,960
Speaker 1: I'm included in that.

1324
01:09:44,040 --> 01:09:46,519
Speaker 3: So it's not like I can't make a living or whatever.

1325
01:09:46,600 --> 01:09:50,839
Speaker 1: But having it right here next to my watch, I'm

1326
01:09:50,920 --> 01:09:53,240
Speaker 1: trying to put that thought in my head more frequently.

1327
01:09:53,560 --> 01:09:56,639
Speaker 2: I love that. That's a beautiful answer. Fifth and final question,

1328
01:09:57,320 --> 01:09:59,120
Speaker 2: which we asked every guest has ever been on the show.

1329
01:09:59,160 --> 01:10:01,479
Speaker 2: If you could create one law that everyone in the

1330
01:10:01,479 --> 01:10:03,280
Speaker 2: world had to follow, what would it be?

1331
01:10:08,280 --> 01:10:10,440
Speaker 3: How long do most people pause? Because I'm thinking.

1332
01:10:10,560 --> 01:10:11,400
Speaker 2: People take forever.

1333
01:10:11,520 --> 01:10:13,920
Speaker 3: And that's why you picked up the book. You're like,

1334
01:10:14,200 --> 01:10:15,040
Speaker 3: you read a chat.

1335
01:10:17,320 --> 01:10:20,000
Speaker 2: We either we either allow we either allow people to

1336
01:10:20,120 --> 01:10:22,040
Speaker 2: edit it out or they can have their thinking time

1337
01:10:22,120 --> 01:10:23,559
Speaker 2: in the edit whatever they prefer.

1338
01:10:23,800 --> 01:10:26,960
Speaker 3: Okay, law, take your time.

1339
01:10:27,040 --> 01:10:30,080
Speaker 2: It's a fun question. So I prefer it when people think.

1340
01:10:29,880 --> 01:10:32,080
Speaker 1: About it and I don't think this is something that

1341
01:10:32,120 --> 01:10:37,720
Speaker 1: you can legislate, so I wouldn't want to force it,

1342
01:10:37,720 --> 01:10:41,880
Speaker 1: but it would be like a strong suggestion which is

1343
01:10:42,479 --> 01:10:49,559
Speaker 1: around kindness, which is that maybe I'll use this phrase

1344
01:10:49,560 --> 01:10:51,360
Speaker 1: from the Dala Lama that I like better than kindness

1345
01:10:51,360 --> 01:10:52,879
Speaker 1: because kindness can sound very planned.

1346
01:10:54,240 --> 01:10:55,440
Speaker 3: Why selfishness?

1347
01:10:55,760 --> 01:11:02,400
Speaker 1: That if you want to do selfishness correctly, you will

1348
01:11:02,439 --> 01:11:05,200
Speaker 1: be thinking about the benefit of all beings to the

1349
01:11:05,200 --> 01:11:07,240
Speaker 1: best of your ability, because.

1350
01:11:06,960 --> 01:11:09,120
Speaker 3: That is how you will get happier.

1351
01:11:10,120 --> 01:11:13,280
Speaker 1: And if we lived our lives, all of us with

1352
01:11:13,360 --> 01:11:15,200
Speaker 1: that as a north star, which again I don't know

1353
01:11:15,240 --> 01:11:18,200
Speaker 1: if I could make it a law, but I could

1354
01:11:18,479 --> 01:11:21,960
Speaker 1: make it a strongly held policy. I think that would

1355
01:11:22,080 --> 01:11:24,040
Speaker 1: change a lot. I think that would change I'm not

1356
01:11:24,040 --> 01:11:26,600
Speaker 1: a utopian. I don't believe that we can create a

1357
01:11:26,600 --> 01:11:28,800
Speaker 1: perfect world, but I think that we can create a

1358
01:11:28,880 --> 01:11:33,920
Speaker 1: much better world if we play to people's self interest

1359
01:11:34,200 --> 01:11:36,160
Speaker 1: in a way that really is in their self interest

1360
01:11:36,200 --> 01:11:39,240
Speaker 1: instead of the fleeting dopamine hits that we're selling people on.

1361
01:11:39,360 --> 01:11:41,960
Speaker 1: Now that actually, your abiding happiness is going to be

1362
01:11:41,960 --> 01:11:42,479
Speaker 1: found in.

1363
01:11:44,160 --> 01:11:46,360
Speaker 3: Kindness. And I wish there was a less cheesy way

1364
01:11:46,400 --> 01:11:46,760
Speaker 3: to say that.

1365
01:11:47,120 --> 01:11:48,400
Speaker 2: That's a great answer.

1366
01:11:48,880 --> 01:11:50,200
Speaker 3: More more than a sentence.

1367
01:11:50,720 --> 01:11:54,800
Speaker 2: It's perfect. It was perfect. The tenth anniversary edition of

1368
01:11:55,040 --> 01:11:58,080
Speaker 2: Dan's book Ten Percent Happy, How I tend the voice

1369
01:11:58,080 --> 01:12:00,360
Speaker 2: in my head? Would you stressed? Without losing my edge?

1370
01:12:00,479 --> 01:12:02,880
Speaker 2: And found self help that actually works a true story

1371
01:12:03,120 --> 01:12:06,040
Speaker 2: is available right now, of course with the tenth anniversary edition.

1372
01:12:06,080 --> 01:12:08,799
Speaker 2: That's amazing. Congratulations, that's pretty so much.

1373
01:12:08,600 --> 01:12:11,160
Speaker 3: For Rayer now when the book came out, and.

1374
01:12:11,479 --> 01:12:15,320
Speaker 2: Of course subscribe to Dan's podcast Ten Percent Happier as well. Dan,

1375
01:12:15,360 --> 01:12:17,880
Speaker 2: thank you so much for coming onto on purpose. This

1376
01:12:18,040 --> 01:12:22,479
Speaker 2: was such a refreshing and really really beautiful organic conversation.

1377
01:12:22,560 --> 01:12:25,040
Speaker 2: And I appreciate you going there with me because that's

1378
01:12:25,120 --> 01:12:26,960
Speaker 2: kind of the space I've been in on the show

1379
01:12:27,000 --> 01:12:29,360
Speaker 2: recently of wanting to get lost with someone.

1380
01:12:29,160 --> 01:12:30,360
Speaker 3: Right just to go into a flow.

1381
01:12:30,479 --> 01:12:33,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's so interesting to meet you because I mean,

1382
01:12:33,439 --> 01:12:35,280
Speaker 1: this is a long way of saying thank you. It's

1383
01:12:35,320 --> 01:12:37,240
Speaker 1: just so interesting to meet you because I've seen you

1384
01:12:37,280 --> 01:12:39,400
Speaker 1: from Afar for a million years and then just to

1385
01:12:39,520 --> 01:12:42,080
Speaker 1: like walk into this hotel room.

1386
01:12:42,160 --> 01:12:44,160
Speaker 3: You're like this dude who just shows up. Hey, how

1387
01:12:44,240 --> 01:12:47,640
Speaker 3: you doing? Like you're way more casual.

1388
01:12:47,200 --> 01:12:49,400
Speaker 1: And down to earth than I might have expected, and

1389
01:12:49,439 --> 01:12:52,360
Speaker 1: so it's really fun to like put an actual person

1390
01:12:52,400 --> 01:12:52,960
Speaker 1: to me there.

1391
01:12:53,200 --> 01:12:55,400
Speaker 2: That's very sweet. I really appreciate that. Thank you so much.

1392
01:12:55,400 --> 01:12:58,240
Speaker 2: And maybe we're doing a terrible job at the brand

1393
01:12:58,280 --> 01:12:59,679
Speaker 2: new That's not how I come.

1394
01:12:59,520 --> 01:13:02,360
Speaker 3: Across, No, it's it's my own paranoia.

1395
01:13:02,400 --> 01:13:06,200
Speaker 2: It's like, I'm like, God, the guys are going to

1396
01:13:06,240 --> 01:13:09,240
Speaker 2: get it together. No, I really appreciate that. Thank you

1397
01:13:09,280 --> 01:13:09,679
Speaker 2: so much.

1398
01:13:09,760 --> 01:13:12,400
Speaker 1: That's usually when you when I I I meet a

1399
01:13:12,720 --> 01:13:14,800
Speaker 1: I've met a lot of well known people in my

1400
01:13:14,960 --> 01:13:17,760
Speaker 1: job as a journalist because I have my job to

1401
01:13:17,800 --> 01:13:21,920
Speaker 1: interview them, and it's rare that I like people more

1402
01:13:22,439 --> 01:13:25,320
Speaker 1: after meeting them based on their public persona.

1403
01:13:25,600 --> 01:13:27,040
Speaker 3: And so that's what I was trying.

1404
01:13:26,760 --> 01:13:28,840
Speaker 2: To thank you. That's very kind of that's very kind.

1405
01:13:28,880 --> 01:13:32,400
Speaker 2: It's that's I really appreciate that thank you. I received

1406
01:13:32,439 --> 01:13:35,559
Speaker 2: that deeply, and I think it's really hard. I've I've

1407
01:13:35,560 --> 01:13:40,519
Speaker 2: definitely struggled with this just I can only be fully

1408
01:13:40,600 --> 01:13:44,000
Speaker 2: myself with someone I'm in person with. It's it's impossible

1409
01:13:44,120 --> 01:13:48,080
Speaker 2: to I find it impossible to be your whole self

1410
01:13:48,120 --> 01:13:51,800
Speaker 2: on a thirty second video or you know, if someone

1411
01:13:51,840 --> 01:13:53,839
Speaker 2: listens to the podcast, I feel they know me because

1412
01:13:54,000 --> 01:13:57,200
Speaker 2: they're hearing, you know, full conversations of an hour each

1413
01:13:57,240 --> 01:13:59,600
Speaker 2: week so or every day. Some people listen to it

1414
01:13:59,640 --> 01:14:01,479
Speaker 2: like IVO. If someone listens to the podcast, they have

1415
01:14:01,520 --> 01:14:04,000
Speaker 2: a deep, deep understanding of Meal if they've read the books.

1416
01:14:04,200 --> 01:14:07,320
Speaker 2: But if someone's just seeing something on social media, they

1417
01:14:07,360 --> 01:14:10,120
Speaker 2: have such a limited view. And it's so hard to

1418
01:14:10,640 --> 01:14:13,080
Speaker 2: portray yourself in that way or in your true self.

1419
01:14:13,120 --> 01:14:15,400
Speaker 2: So I appreciate it. Thank you so much, Thank you Dan,

1420
01:14:15,439 --> 01:14:16,880
Speaker 2: thanks for having me. It's been a real treat. Thank

1421
01:14:16,920 --> 01:14:19,439
Speaker 2: you so much. Thank you so much for listening to

1422
01:14:19,520 --> 01:14:23,240
Speaker 2: this conversation. If you enjoyed it, you'll love my chat

1423
01:14:23,280 --> 01:14:26,760
Speaker 2: with Adam Grant on why discomfort is the key to

1424
01:14:26,840 --> 01:14:31,360
Speaker 2: growth and the strategies for unlocking your hidden potential. If

1425
01:14:31,400 --> 01:14:33,479
Speaker 2: you know you want to be more and achieve more

1426
01:14:33,560 --> 01:14:36,040
Speaker 2: this year, go check it out right now.

1427
01:14:36,240 --> 01:14:38,920
Speaker 1: You set a goal today, you achieve it in six months,

1428
01:14:39,320 --> 01:14:42,320
Speaker 1: and then by the time it happens, it's almost a relief.

1429
01:14:42,360 --> 01:14:43,920
Speaker 3: There's no sense of meaning and purpose.

1430
01:14:44,080 --> 01:14:45,760
Speaker 1: You sort of expected it, and you would have been

1431
01:14:45,800 --> 01:14:47,240
Speaker 1: disappointed if it didn't happen.