1 00:00:02,160 --> 00:00:05,320 Speaker 1: As an extension of the podcast series, the producers would 2 00:00:05,320 --> 00:00:07,920 Speaker 1: like to share the full interviews of our subjects from 3 00:00:07,920 --> 00:00:12,040 Speaker 1: the series. Their accounts and memories offer a fascinating look 4 00:00:12,119 --> 00:00:15,640 Speaker 1: into the legacy of Len Bias. We begin the interview 5 00:00:15,760 --> 00:00:17,919 Speaker 1: series with a look at the effects of the drug 6 00:00:18,000 --> 00:00:22,200 Speaker 1: laws that were changed following the death of Bias. Dave Ngrady, 7 00:00:22,440 --> 00:00:26,759 Speaker 1: executive producer of the series, interviews Dorothy Gaines, a victim 8 00:00:26,760 --> 00:00:31,360 Speaker 1: of overzealous prosecution and mandatory minimum sentencing which sent her 9 00:00:31,400 --> 00:00:34,720 Speaker 1: to prison for a crime she did not commit. Dorothy 10 00:00:34,800 --> 00:00:38,360 Speaker 1: shares her personal and tragic family story on how the 11 00:00:38,360 --> 00:00:40,800 Speaker 1: death of Len Bias shook her family to the core 12 00:00:41,280 --> 00:00:44,120 Speaker 1: and how it still continues to affect their lives to 13 00:00:44,120 --> 00:00:47,879 Speaker 1: this day. Dorothy is one example of the thousands of 14 00:00:47,960 --> 00:00:50,440 Speaker 1: lives that were affected by the changes of the criminal 15 00:00:50,560 --> 00:00:53,240 Speaker 1: justice system due to the War on drugs and the 16 00:00:53,320 --> 00:00:57,840 Speaker 1: drug related death of Len Bias. Is Mama Craft and 17 00:00:57,920 --> 00:00:58,760 Speaker 1: the People's. 18 00:01:00,040 --> 00:01:02,720 Speaker 2: Let's start really from the beginning, how your life was 19 00:01:02,800 --> 00:01:07,720 Speaker 2: changed following the arrests, why you were arrested, at least 20 00:01:07,800 --> 00:01:11,480 Speaker 2: what law enforcement claimed, and then and then we'll go 21 00:01:11,520 --> 00:01:11,920 Speaker 2: from there. 22 00:01:13,840 --> 00:01:18,200 Speaker 3: In nineteen ninety three, Alabama law enforcement claimed that I 23 00:01:18,280 --> 00:01:20,200 Speaker 3: knew about some drug dealing going on. 24 00:01:21,680 --> 00:01:24,040 Speaker 4: They came into my house and raided and there was nothing. 25 00:01:25,120 --> 00:01:29,200 Speaker 3: That was Alabama court and then after Alabama court, and 26 00:01:29,400 --> 00:01:32,120 Speaker 3: you know, Alabama don't send you to trial unless you 27 00:01:32,160 --> 00:01:36,520 Speaker 3: have evidence, but the Pharoh government does with conspiracy. So 28 00:01:36,560 --> 00:01:38,720 Speaker 3: it was turned over to the faiths. And that's how 29 00:01:38,760 --> 00:01:40,360 Speaker 3: it all started in nineteen ninety three. 30 00:01:41,440 --> 00:01:47,520 Speaker 2: And can you explain why Alabama law enforcement felt compelled 31 00:01:47,560 --> 00:01:50,280 Speaker 2: to search your home. You had a relationship with a 32 00:01:50,320 --> 00:01:51,200 Speaker 2: gentleman I think who. 33 00:01:51,160 --> 00:01:51,560 Speaker 5: Was dealing here? 34 00:01:51,640 --> 00:01:55,440 Speaker 3: You have relationship with a dealer name at that time 35 00:01:55,560 --> 00:01:58,680 Speaker 3: was my comradid husband. He was more as a user 36 00:01:58,760 --> 00:02:02,520 Speaker 3: than a drug person that was dealing drug. He was 37 00:02:02,520 --> 00:02:05,480 Speaker 3: a user, but he knew some guys that was into 38 00:02:05,520 --> 00:02:07,800 Speaker 3: that type of business. He testified that I knew anything, 39 00:02:07,880 --> 00:02:09,880 Speaker 3: that I didn't know anything about what was going on. 40 00:02:10,360 --> 00:02:13,760 Speaker 3: But they still even offer him to be released of 41 00:02:13,840 --> 00:02:16,200 Speaker 3: the fourteen years and he would just testify against me, 42 00:02:16,720 --> 00:02:17,880 Speaker 3: and he refused to do that. 43 00:02:18,280 --> 00:02:23,959 Speaker 2: Tarbor called the Alabama prosecutors decided not to prosecute you, correct, 44 00:02:23,960 --> 00:02:25,639 Speaker 2: because they didn't have no right. 45 00:02:25,680 --> 00:02:27,119 Speaker 3: I didn't have any They didn't have an el say, 46 00:02:27,120 --> 00:02:30,600 Speaker 3: Alabama didn't prosecute me. The case was then later the 47 00:02:30,600 --> 00:02:31,960 Speaker 3: federal government picked it up. 48 00:02:32,800 --> 00:02:38,079 Speaker 2: And tell me what you recall about the trial when 49 00:02:38,120 --> 00:02:41,720 Speaker 2: the federal government process charges against you, and how and 50 00:02:41,760 --> 00:02:44,600 Speaker 2: what happened there what you thought was for some injustices 51 00:02:44,639 --> 00:02:45,200 Speaker 2: there as well. 52 00:02:46,000 --> 00:02:48,480 Speaker 4: Okay, during the trial and we went to trial at 53 00:02:48,560 --> 00:02:49,400 Speaker 4: nineteen ninety. 54 00:02:50,360 --> 00:02:54,320 Speaker 3: But it started off with they came and arrest me, 55 00:02:55,639 --> 00:02:58,520 Speaker 3: and I went and made a magist de bond, signed 56 00:02:58,520 --> 00:03:01,639 Speaker 3: my own recovernists and I was on pre trial, had 57 00:03:02,120 --> 00:03:05,239 Speaker 3: a group report with the probation office on pre trial. 58 00:03:05,639 --> 00:03:07,519 Speaker 3: Then I ended up going to trial with like four 59 00:03:07,560 --> 00:03:09,239 Speaker 3: other people, and I begged them let me go to 60 00:03:09,320 --> 00:03:11,760 Speaker 3: trial alone, but they wouldn't let me go to trial, 61 00:03:11,840 --> 00:03:15,079 Speaker 3: or they tried me with four other people. And one 62 00:03:15,080 --> 00:03:16,959 Speaker 3: of the people they tried me was was a young 63 00:03:17,080 --> 00:03:20,640 Speaker 3: lady that was working out of macdone's. And it was 64 00:03:20,680 --> 00:03:22,800 Speaker 3: a guy there in the trial that say that he 65 00:03:22,840 --> 00:03:25,560 Speaker 3: had bought an ouncer crack cocaine from her, and the 66 00:03:25,680 --> 00:03:28,160 Speaker 3: juror they asked him to point out the woman that 67 00:03:28,240 --> 00:03:31,200 Speaker 3: he bought the ouncer print cocaine from, and he pointed 68 00:03:31,200 --> 00:03:33,840 Speaker 3: out a juror. So we just knew the trial was 69 00:03:33,880 --> 00:03:36,040 Speaker 3: gonna be thrown out because he didn't he would nobody 70 00:03:36,120 --> 00:03:38,360 Speaker 3: had never seen this guy they had brought in the testifact. 71 00:03:38,880 --> 00:03:40,920 Speaker 3: It was just somebody after jail that they brought in 72 00:03:41,760 --> 00:03:43,080 Speaker 3: and he picked out a juror. 73 00:03:43,120 --> 00:03:45,080 Speaker 4: So we thought the trial was gonna be thrown out. 74 00:03:45,360 --> 00:03:45,960 Speaker 4: And there it is. 75 00:03:46,000 --> 00:03:48,280 Speaker 3: That prosecutor told me that when the guy saw the 76 00:03:48,360 --> 00:03:51,160 Speaker 3: lady the last time, she was heavy, and you know 77 00:03:51,200 --> 00:03:53,720 Speaker 3: how the prosecuted just try to and they went on 78 00:03:53,840 --> 00:03:56,160 Speaker 3: and bought and the trial see up again, you know, 79 00:03:56,320 --> 00:03:56,600 Speaker 3: went on. 80 00:03:57,040 --> 00:04:02,240 Speaker 4: So that day I testified. 81 00:04:01,640 --> 00:04:03,640 Speaker 3: That I knew nothing about it. Even the guy that 82 00:04:03,680 --> 00:04:05,480 Speaker 3: I was living with testibut it. I knew nothing about 83 00:04:05,480 --> 00:04:07,920 Speaker 3: what was going on that I was, you know, worked, 84 00:04:07,920 --> 00:04:10,560 Speaker 3: and I never knew that he was a drug dealer, 85 00:04:10,800 --> 00:04:14,880 Speaker 3: a user. He testified to that, and that's when, you 86 00:04:14,920 --> 00:04:17,720 Speaker 3: know everything, My judge, everybody got involved. So they ended 87 00:04:17,760 --> 00:04:19,520 Speaker 3: up blocking me up. My judge, so no, I'm gonna 88 00:04:19,560 --> 00:04:22,039 Speaker 3: let her go home because my mother was suffering from cancer. 89 00:04:22,520 --> 00:04:24,840 Speaker 3: So he let me go home and stay until time 90 00:04:24,920 --> 00:04:28,479 Speaker 3: for me to be sentenced. March ten or nineteen ninety 91 00:04:28,520 --> 00:04:30,240 Speaker 3: five is when I was sentenced in nineteen years and 92 00:04:30,279 --> 00:04:33,880 Speaker 3: seven months and that's when my son jumped in. The 93 00:04:33,960 --> 00:04:37,200 Speaker 3: judge left and the FBI and the Martians had to 94 00:04:37,200 --> 00:04:39,560 Speaker 3: pry him out. The judge left and the judge was crying. 95 00:04:39,760 --> 00:04:41,359 Speaker 3: He did not want to send me to prison, and 96 00:04:41,440 --> 00:04:43,440 Speaker 3: that relationship started being. You know, the judge was the 97 00:04:43,440 --> 00:04:44,839 Speaker 3: one that wrote a letter to the president. 98 00:04:46,560 --> 00:04:51,760 Speaker 4: Oh I didn't know that, yes, saying what that You know, 99 00:04:51,800 --> 00:04:53,880 Speaker 4: it was just a few lines. I can get the letter. 100 00:04:53,960 --> 00:04:57,279 Speaker 4: I have it in my file, just a few lines. 101 00:04:57,279 --> 00:04:57,720 Speaker 4: He said that. 102 00:04:57,760 --> 00:04:59,680 Speaker 3: You know, this was the case that he was compelled 103 00:05:00,320 --> 00:05:01,919 Speaker 3: to do this for it was his first time he 104 00:05:01,960 --> 00:05:03,479 Speaker 3: ever doing it, and the prosecute. 105 00:05:03,040 --> 00:05:04,920 Speaker 4: Was just blow because they couldn't believe that he wrote 106 00:05:04,920 --> 00:05:05,520 Speaker 4: a letter. 107 00:05:05,279 --> 00:05:05,839 Speaker 5: To the president. 108 00:05:08,320 --> 00:05:11,160 Speaker 2: Your son. Let's go back to your family a little bit. 109 00:05:11,200 --> 00:05:13,520 Speaker 2: Tell me about what your family life was like, or 110 00:05:13,520 --> 00:05:15,440 Speaker 2: what your life was like before the arrest. You had 111 00:05:15,520 --> 00:05:17,760 Speaker 2: children before the rest. 112 00:05:18,839 --> 00:05:22,120 Speaker 3: Yeah, before the arrest, my life was I thought was perfect. 113 00:05:22,680 --> 00:05:25,680 Speaker 3: I mean I did everything in the book because my children. 114 00:05:26,520 --> 00:05:29,640 Speaker 3: Father died when my son was two and my daughter 115 00:05:29,760 --> 00:05:32,360 Speaker 3: was three. That's when he had a mass upont I 116 00:05:32,400 --> 00:05:35,120 Speaker 3: taking the age of thirty two years old. So it 117 00:05:35,320 --> 00:05:38,120 Speaker 3: just me and my kids and Natasha was eight. Natasha 118 00:05:38,279 --> 00:05:41,040 Speaker 3: is my oldest child. So with just a threell we 119 00:05:41,080 --> 00:05:45,320 Speaker 3: had a lovely life. You know, I did nothing that 120 00:05:45,440 --> 00:05:47,960 Speaker 3: I always set up myself, Dave that I did nothing 121 00:05:48,040 --> 00:05:49,440 Speaker 3: unless my children was involved. 122 00:05:49,600 --> 00:05:51,680 Speaker 4: I never drink. I've never been to a club in 123 00:05:51,720 --> 00:05:52,120 Speaker 4: my life. 124 00:05:52,640 --> 00:05:56,320 Speaker 3: Everything I did I did it with my children, boy Scout, girls, scout, 125 00:05:57,680 --> 00:05:58,640 Speaker 3: going to movies. 126 00:05:58,800 --> 00:06:00,640 Speaker 4: Everything involved my children. 127 00:06:00,680 --> 00:06:02,880 Speaker 3: So this was a big setback when I left my 128 00:06:03,000 --> 00:06:04,760 Speaker 3: kids and they were the only you know, I was 129 00:06:04,800 --> 00:06:07,360 Speaker 3: the only painter, not just I was the only. 130 00:06:07,160 --> 00:06:10,159 Speaker 4: Parent of my kids. Hed my mother was stuffed from cancer. 131 00:06:11,360 --> 00:06:13,000 Speaker 5: And what kind of work were you doing at the time. 132 00:06:13,520 --> 00:06:14,479 Speaker 4: I was working. 133 00:06:14,200 --> 00:06:17,680 Speaker 3: At the hospital as a nurse, so I you know 134 00:06:17,800 --> 00:06:19,880 Speaker 3: everything that went down the draint at that moment. 135 00:06:21,120 --> 00:06:24,599 Speaker 2: What what can you tell us about your connection to 136 00:06:24,640 --> 00:06:27,279 Speaker 2: this gentleman who had who was using drugs? 137 00:06:27,279 --> 00:06:30,200 Speaker 5: What was he just a friend? Was he? Why would they. 138 00:06:30,080 --> 00:06:32,479 Speaker 4: Think that he was my guy? He was my guy friend. 139 00:06:32,560 --> 00:06:34,640 Speaker 4: Let me tell you something about him. You would never 140 00:06:34,760 --> 00:06:36,279 Speaker 4: have known he was a user. 141 00:06:36,440 --> 00:06:39,279 Speaker 3: He was what you call a he works every day 142 00:06:40,279 --> 00:06:43,240 Speaker 3: every day, clean cut. You never would he was what 143 00:06:43,279 --> 00:06:46,520 Speaker 3: you call a closet user. You didn't, you could. 144 00:06:46,320 --> 00:06:50,880 Speaker 4: Not tell he used drugs bias. Yeah, you could not 145 00:06:51,040 --> 00:06:53,880 Speaker 4: tell he used drugs. To this day, you would never 146 00:06:53,920 --> 00:06:56,479 Speaker 4: have never nobody, everybody was surprised that he was a 147 00:06:56,520 --> 00:06:57,120 Speaker 4: drug user. 148 00:06:58,360 --> 00:06:59,919 Speaker 5: And explain again that connection. 149 00:07:00,120 --> 00:07:05,800 Speaker 2: Did that connection impact you being uh? 150 00:07:06,240 --> 00:07:08,320 Speaker 5: Law enforcement coming after you? Is that what that was 151 00:07:08,320 --> 00:07:09,080 Speaker 5: the big reason that. 152 00:07:09,160 --> 00:07:10,160 Speaker 4: That was a connection. 153 00:07:10,600 --> 00:07:13,640 Speaker 3: That was a connection that law enforcement come after me 154 00:07:13,960 --> 00:07:18,360 Speaker 3: and my daughter's grandmother, my daughter's oldest daughter, Natasha grandmother, 155 00:07:18,880 --> 00:07:23,640 Speaker 3: her son testified against her, and natasha father testified against 156 00:07:23,680 --> 00:07:26,960 Speaker 3: me and his mother and she was like sixty some 157 00:07:27,120 --> 00:07:30,560 Speaker 3: years old and she went to prison. So yeah, there 158 00:07:30,560 --> 00:07:31,760 Speaker 3: was a whole type of connection. 159 00:07:31,920 --> 00:07:35,600 Speaker 2: Yes, tell us again what happened with your how old 160 00:07:35,600 --> 00:07:38,440 Speaker 2: your son was? Can you relive that moment in court 161 00:07:38,520 --> 00:07:40,960 Speaker 2: when when you were convicted and how he reacted? 162 00:07:43,480 --> 00:07:46,480 Speaker 4: Uh, my son was madews. 163 00:07:48,880 --> 00:07:52,880 Speaker 6: And when I was twenty years to live in the pool. 164 00:07:57,600 --> 00:08:10,280 Speaker 7: And my son and mess every sister the day. Ever 165 00:08:10,360 --> 00:08:13,320 Speaker 7: since that day I went to prison, we j be 166 00:08:13,840 --> 00:08:16,960 Speaker 7: living picked up. Don't send me to prison. He has 167 00:08:17,040 --> 00:08:22,400 Speaker 7: been missed from ever. He's not in prison doing forty he. 168 00:08:24,200 --> 00:08:35,240 Speaker 8: Mhm hm, So my life has just been tore up 169 00:08:35,280 --> 00:08:36,440 Speaker 8: ever since that day. 170 00:08:37,720 --> 00:08:38,000 Speaker 3: Mhm. 171 00:08:43,440 --> 00:08:47,520 Speaker 5: What what were the what were the charges against your 172 00:08:47,559 --> 00:08:48,640 Speaker 5: son that he's in prison now? 173 00:08:49,400 --> 00:08:54,920 Speaker 4: Robbery? He got on drugs real bad when he was young. 174 00:08:59,640 --> 00:09:03,400 Speaker 2: Hm, And how much of how much of his behavior 175 00:09:04,200 --> 00:09:06,120 Speaker 2: do you figure as related to what happened to you? 176 00:09:06,960 --> 00:09:13,080 Speaker 6: One hundred percent? My son tried to kill himself while 177 00:09:13,080 --> 00:09:18,080 Speaker 6: I was gone. He set himself, but he took over 178 00:09:18,240 --> 00:09:21,160 Speaker 6: those He did everything to not leave. 179 00:09:26,280 --> 00:09:29,880 Speaker 2: I was aware he was he had challenges, Dorothy, I 180 00:09:29,880 --> 00:09:31,040 Speaker 2: didn't realize it was that hard. 181 00:09:31,120 --> 00:09:44,760 Speaker 5: I'm sorry, yes, O. How often do you talk with 182 00:09:44,840 --> 00:09:46,040 Speaker 5: him or communicate with him? 183 00:09:46,559 --> 00:09:47,400 Speaker 4: Every other day? 184 00:09:49,200 --> 00:09:52,480 Speaker 3: I tried to communicate him every the other day. My 185 00:09:52,640 --> 00:09:55,239 Speaker 3: son stay out, was stay up fifteen times? 186 00:09:57,200 --> 00:09:59,520 Speaker 4: Why he been gone? He was stay up fifteen times 187 00:09:59,520 --> 00:10:02,440 Speaker 4: and didn't sometime? He got a stroke cut last year. 188 00:10:05,600 --> 00:10:06,320 Speaker 5: While in prison. 189 00:10:07,200 --> 00:10:09,320 Speaker 3: Well in prison did me and his daughter was going 190 00:10:09,360 --> 00:10:12,199 Speaker 3: to see him and we almost got killed going to 191 00:10:12,200 --> 00:10:12,920 Speaker 3: see him in bad. 192 00:10:13,040 --> 00:10:13,480 Speaker 4: Correct. 193 00:10:16,520 --> 00:10:19,080 Speaker 3: He has one child and she's now trying to commit 194 00:10:19,160 --> 00:10:20,920 Speaker 3: suicide last month herself. 195 00:10:26,000 --> 00:10:31,000 Speaker 2: Who Dorothy, As you're talking through this and we're listening 196 00:10:31,040 --> 00:10:32,640 Speaker 2: to this, it's pretty hard to hear. But how are 197 00:10:32,640 --> 00:10:35,960 Speaker 2: you how do you keep all this? How do you 198 00:10:36,040 --> 00:10:38,480 Speaker 2: keep it together? With all this what is your what 199 00:10:38,679 --> 00:10:41,920 Speaker 2: is your foundation of what keeps you going? 200 00:10:43,920 --> 00:10:46,520 Speaker 3: Just hoping one day is going one day we can 201 00:10:46,640 --> 00:10:50,120 Speaker 3: have enjoyment of seeing each other again on the outside. 202 00:10:51,200 --> 00:10:53,200 Speaker 3: It's just been like I've been in prison for the 203 00:10:53,320 --> 00:10:57,400 Speaker 3: last thirty years. It's been like prison. 204 00:11:00,200 --> 00:11:01,560 Speaker 2: Hm. 205 00:11:05,360 --> 00:11:06,800 Speaker 4: Oh, lord Mercy. 206 00:11:11,480 --> 00:11:14,800 Speaker 2: Can you tell me about the rest of your family, 207 00:11:16,320 --> 00:11:19,400 Speaker 2: how they're doing and and and I know how from 208 00:11:19,440 --> 00:11:24,280 Speaker 2: talking with you over the last a couple of years 209 00:11:25,080 --> 00:11:28,040 Speaker 2: that you're taking care of some of your grandchildren. 210 00:11:28,120 --> 00:11:29,280 Speaker 5: Correct, Is that correct? 211 00:11:29,679 --> 00:11:29,920 Speaker 4: Yes? 212 00:11:30,000 --> 00:11:35,360 Speaker 3: I'm uh Phillip's daughter, uh Taylor, and my my daughter 213 00:11:35,440 --> 00:11:38,200 Speaker 3: that when I went to prison, char Or, she's she 214 00:11:38,400 --> 00:11:40,800 Speaker 3: was eleven at that time, and she was molested by 215 00:11:40,800 --> 00:11:44,440 Speaker 3: a family member that has got her so messed up 216 00:11:44,480 --> 00:11:46,880 Speaker 3: that she's on drugs and alcohol as well. So I'm 217 00:11:46,920 --> 00:11:53,160 Speaker 3: having to help take care of for her kids. All 218 00:11:53,200 --> 00:11:56,720 Speaker 3: that happened while I was inconcrated. She was right by 219 00:11:56,720 --> 00:11:57,600 Speaker 3: a family member. 220 00:11:58,440 --> 00:12:00,480 Speaker 5: I'm sorry, who was your daughter? 221 00:12:01,120 --> 00:12:03,599 Speaker 3: Yeah, Charro the level when she was eleven at the 222 00:12:03,600 --> 00:12:07,640 Speaker 3: time I went to prison, and you know, mentally, it 223 00:12:07,760 --> 00:12:10,200 Speaker 3: messed with her a lot, and so she started drinking 224 00:12:10,200 --> 00:12:16,880 Speaker 3: and started doing drugs as well. So she has four children, 225 00:12:23,200 --> 00:12:25,720 Speaker 3: So I just I know I ain't no guests. That's 226 00:12:25,760 --> 00:12:28,840 Speaker 3: why God keeping me here, is why COVID. I mean, hey, 227 00:12:30,120 --> 00:12:33,000 Speaker 3: it's a reason for my life. Hopefully one day I'll 228 00:12:33,000 --> 00:12:34,319 Speaker 3: see the sun shame. 229 00:12:37,520 --> 00:12:40,079 Speaker 5: And who cares for your Who cares for your children? 230 00:12:40,080 --> 00:12:41,760 Speaker 5: Where they were adults? But are they. 231 00:12:43,320 --> 00:12:45,600 Speaker 2: You're helping care to be clear, helping care for their 232 00:12:45,679 --> 00:12:46,920 Speaker 2: their children as best you can? 233 00:12:47,160 --> 00:12:47,559 Speaker 5: Correct? 234 00:12:47,720 --> 00:12:53,079 Speaker 4: Yes, yes, yes, it's a hard journey. But I'm trying to. 235 00:12:53,000 --> 00:12:56,200 Speaker 5: Do with how are you? How are you doing that? 236 00:12:56,320 --> 00:12:59,160 Speaker 5: What do you because you're not able to work? You're 237 00:12:59,160 --> 00:12:59,960 Speaker 5: not working? Correct? 238 00:13:00,440 --> 00:13:01,959 Speaker 4: No, I'm not working. I don't think I get an 239 00:13:02,120 --> 00:13:03,560 Speaker 4: SSI disability. 240 00:13:05,080 --> 00:13:13,480 Speaker 5: Okay, let's talk a bit. When you were incarcerated, what 241 00:13:13,600 --> 00:13:14,320 Speaker 5: did you do? 242 00:13:16,440 --> 00:13:21,679 Speaker 2: I'm I think it's fair to say that you felt 243 00:13:21,760 --> 00:13:26,800 Speaker 2: you were unjustly convicted? Of course, what did you do 244 00:13:26,880 --> 00:13:29,760 Speaker 2: to try to first deal with the fact while you 245 00:13:29,800 --> 00:13:31,480 Speaker 2: were in prison that you don't felt you shouldn't have 246 00:13:31,480 --> 00:13:35,320 Speaker 2: been there? And secondly, what did you do to try to, 247 00:13:35,920 --> 00:13:37,880 Speaker 2: if anything, fixed your situation? 248 00:13:38,960 --> 00:13:41,400 Speaker 3: I start well, when I went to I went to 249 00:13:41,440 --> 00:13:44,080 Speaker 3: FRISM and I started writing out, I started calling out, 250 00:13:44,520 --> 00:13:47,080 Speaker 3: and I remember I got in touch with jeded Reno, 251 00:13:47,679 --> 00:13:50,199 Speaker 3: and I was explaining them on a letter about what 252 00:13:50,400 --> 00:13:51,920 Speaker 3: had went down did It wasn't fair. 253 00:13:52,040 --> 00:13:54,079 Speaker 4: How could I be charged with something I never done? 254 00:13:54,160 --> 00:13:58,000 Speaker 3: And and I remember her office writing me back, and 255 00:13:58,040 --> 00:14:01,040 Speaker 3: I end up still writing and writing. And then when 256 00:14:01,040 --> 00:14:03,640 Speaker 3: I went to prison, I wrote letters and different people 257 00:14:04,280 --> 00:14:06,920 Speaker 3: from all over England would get my got my story. 258 00:14:06,960 --> 00:14:10,959 Speaker 3: They send somebody over here to do a film about 259 00:14:10,960 --> 00:14:13,679 Speaker 3: how they were sending American people to prison on conspiracy. 260 00:14:14,400 --> 00:14:16,440 Speaker 4: They did that when I was in Mariana prison in 261 00:14:16,520 --> 00:14:22,040 Speaker 4: nineteen ninety nine, they sent somebody from England. Then different 262 00:14:22,080 --> 00:14:27,280 Speaker 4: magazines like Marie Clair and Ebony Essence. And you know, 263 00:14:27,320 --> 00:14:29,800 Speaker 4: Philip was in the last book that JFK put out 264 00:14:29,800 --> 00:14:31,360 Speaker 4: before he got killed in the plane crack. 265 00:14:34,120 --> 00:14:35,680 Speaker 3: There was a story about him. Was in that book 266 00:14:35,720 --> 00:14:39,480 Speaker 3: called Joege the last book that was put out. They 267 00:14:39,480 --> 00:14:42,160 Speaker 3: wrote a story about him in that book. I mean 268 00:14:42,320 --> 00:14:44,920 Speaker 3: it just I just sent in prison. I just I 269 00:14:44,920 --> 00:14:46,720 Speaker 3: didn't go to prison. I just put' simp there. I 270 00:14:46,800 --> 00:14:49,360 Speaker 3: just let myself write in prison, knowing that I needed 271 00:14:49,440 --> 00:14:52,480 Speaker 3: my children needed me. So I started writing out and 272 00:14:52,800 --> 00:14:55,560 Speaker 3: begging for help on outside. I started begging for help 273 00:14:55,560 --> 00:14:58,720 Speaker 3: for somebody, some organization to take hold of my son 274 00:14:58,800 --> 00:14:59,680 Speaker 3: and be a mentor. 275 00:14:59,720 --> 00:15:01,840 Speaker 4: But I and get that part of it. But I did. 276 00:15:01,960 --> 00:15:04,560 Speaker 3: People did start writing out about my story and doing 277 00:15:04,600 --> 00:15:05,240 Speaker 3: a lot of things. 278 00:15:06,760 --> 00:15:08,600 Speaker 2: So while you were in prison, you were doing all this, 279 00:15:08,680 --> 00:15:10,200 Speaker 2: did you darthy Did you think that you. 280 00:15:10,160 --> 00:15:13,120 Speaker 5: Were going to be in there for a really long time? Like, uh, 281 00:15:13,240 --> 00:15:16,160 Speaker 5: were you gonna do your you were gonna it was. 282 00:15:16,080 --> 00:15:18,400 Speaker 3: A mindset thing. I kept saying every day, I was 283 00:15:18,440 --> 00:15:20,680 Speaker 3: not going to do that time. I kept telling the 284 00:15:20,760 --> 00:15:22,840 Speaker 3: officers that I was not going to do that time. 285 00:15:23,680 --> 00:15:26,000 Speaker 3: And I remember one day I kept on talking. I said, 286 00:15:26,000 --> 00:15:28,200 Speaker 3: I'm going home, and they sent me to the site ward. 287 00:15:28,240 --> 00:15:31,840 Speaker 3: They said I was losing my mind because I had 288 00:15:31,880 --> 00:15:34,280 Speaker 3: twenty years. How was I going home? And I said, 289 00:15:34,320 --> 00:15:36,760 Speaker 3: I'm going home. I'm gonna fight my case. I'm going home, 290 00:15:37,080 --> 00:15:38,480 Speaker 3: and they sent me to the site war. 291 00:15:41,880 --> 00:15:44,680 Speaker 2: Did you when you got arrested, when you were convicted 292 00:15:44,800 --> 00:15:48,360 Speaker 2: you did you understand what the laws were and how 293 00:15:48,400 --> 00:15:51,120 Speaker 2: it related to the death of Len Bias at that time? 294 00:15:51,240 --> 00:15:53,640 Speaker 5: Did you know who Lenn was? Did you know any 295 00:15:53,680 --> 00:15:53,960 Speaker 5: of that? 296 00:15:54,640 --> 00:15:54,800 Speaker 1: No? 297 00:15:54,840 --> 00:15:58,040 Speaker 4: I did not, No, No, I did not. 298 00:15:58,680 --> 00:16:00,400 Speaker 5: When did you finally become aware of that? 299 00:16:01,440 --> 00:16:06,280 Speaker 4: I remember reading about uh, Lenn biased. I think it was. 300 00:16:07,400 --> 00:16:09,640 Speaker 4: I don't know what was. Eric was talking. 301 00:16:09,480 --> 00:16:13,040 Speaker 3: About it when that's when everybody was running and jumping 302 00:16:13,080 --> 00:16:15,400 Speaker 3: and lend biased. They didn't really look into the law. 303 00:16:15,440 --> 00:16:18,400 Speaker 3: They were just upset because Lynn had od and they 304 00:16:18,480 --> 00:16:19,320 Speaker 3: just changed the law. 305 00:16:19,360 --> 00:16:23,240 Speaker 4: And he said like overnight, Oh that was. 306 00:16:23,320 --> 00:16:26,120 Speaker 5: That was uh oh yes, okay. But when did you 307 00:16:26,160 --> 00:16:27,080 Speaker 5: When did you become. 308 00:16:26,880 --> 00:16:32,880 Speaker 2: Aware of Len's history and how his death affected uh? 309 00:16:33,440 --> 00:16:36,560 Speaker 3: While I was inconcentrated, because I knew nothing about any 310 00:16:36,560 --> 00:16:39,800 Speaker 3: of this before I went to prison. That's why I 311 00:16:39,920 --> 00:16:42,560 Speaker 3: was the person to try to read now and let 312 00:16:42,560 --> 00:16:46,040 Speaker 3: people know, you gotta be knowledgeable stuff. But before I 313 00:16:46,640 --> 00:16:49,640 Speaker 3: knew nothing about conspiras. I knew nothing about practic cocaine. 314 00:16:49,680 --> 00:16:50,920 Speaker 3: I knew nothing about any of it. 315 00:16:51,800 --> 00:16:54,880 Speaker 5: Did you find out about him just reading about it 316 00:16:54,880 --> 00:16:55,680 Speaker 5: while you were in prison? 317 00:16:55,760 --> 00:16:58,680 Speaker 3: Is that what you're saying, Yeah, I found out about 318 00:16:58,720 --> 00:16:59,440 Speaker 3: I was convicted. 319 00:16:59,480 --> 00:17:00,760 Speaker 4: I didn't know any thing about any of this. 320 00:17:02,520 --> 00:17:04,880 Speaker 5: And how did it? How did that make you feel 321 00:17:04,880 --> 00:17:06,399 Speaker 5: when you found that out? Did you. 322 00:17:08,160 --> 00:17:09,280 Speaker 2: Enough that there was a whole lot you could do 323 00:17:09,280 --> 00:17:11,800 Speaker 2: at that point beside what you were doing? But did 324 00:17:11,840 --> 00:17:13,879 Speaker 2: you think about that and said why you know this 325 00:17:13,920 --> 00:17:15,679 Speaker 2: doesn't make sense or did you have any kind of 326 00:17:15,680 --> 00:17:16,360 Speaker 2: reaction to that? 327 00:17:17,280 --> 00:17:19,520 Speaker 3: Well, yall have a reaction to it, because the thing 328 00:17:19,560 --> 00:17:22,560 Speaker 3: about the way I looked at with crack cocaine, it's 329 00:17:22,600 --> 00:17:23,520 Speaker 3: just like with a chicken. 330 00:17:24,000 --> 00:17:25,960 Speaker 4: You can take a chicken, you can boil. 331 00:17:25,680 --> 00:17:28,640 Speaker 3: It, fry, barbecue, and bake it, but when it all 332 00:17:28,680 --> 00:17:31,160 Speaker 3: boil down, it's a chicken. And it's the same way 333 00:17:31,160 --> 00:17:33,840 Speaker 3: with crack cocaine and powder. They give you more time 334 00:17:33,880 --> 00:17:36,159 Speaker 3: for having crack cocaine and dup of powder, but the 335 00:17:36,200 --> 00:17:39,000 Speaker 3: basic thing is the head thing is its problem. So 336 00:17:39,040 --> 00:17:43,800 Speaker 3: why they give you more time for crack dup of powder? Well, 337 00:17:43,800 --> 00:17:45,720 Speaker 3: that was some of the scenarios I was looking. 338 00:17:45,520 --> 00:17:46,879 Speaker 5: At as you researched it. 339 00:17:46,920 --> 00:17:49,720 Speaker 2: Did you understand why that was why they were what 340 00:17:49,800 --> 00:17:53,320 Speaker 2: the reasoning might have been for a severe more severe 341 00:17:54,320 --> 00:17:56,560 Speaker 2: sentences for crack as opposed to powder. 342 00:17:57,000 --> 00:18:00,480 Speaker 3: You know, uh uh Daves. To this day, I'm still 343 00:18:00,560 --> 00:18:03,840 Speaker 3: upset because I still don't understand why, because to me, 344 00:18:04,320 --> 00:18:07,320 Speaker 3: patter would be more potent to me, uh to me 345 00:18:07,400 --> 00:18:09,639 Speaker 3: with crack. They say they break the crack down with 346 00:18:09,720 --> 00:18:12,160 Speaker 3: bacon power all that, so it's broke down, So why 347 00:18:12,160 --> 00:18:15,760 Speaker 3: would it be more to bee or penalty unless it's 348 00:18:15,800 --> 00:18:18,359 Speaker 3: because of the race that's using the drugs. 349 00:18:21,080 --> 00:18:26,240 Speaker 2: Okay, I don't under Let's move forward to Uh, how 350 00:18:26,280 --> 00:18:31,440 Speaker 2: did it? How do you remember it happening where you were? 351 00:18:31,920 --> 00:18:34,240 Speaker 2: Were President Clinton pardoned you? 352 00:18:34,280 --> 00:18:36,000 Speaker 5: How did it? How did all that transpire? 353 00:18:37,040 --> 00:18:40,280 Speaker 4: Well, it all comes about a lot of people got involved, 354 00:18:40,320 --> 00:18:41,080 Speaker 4: like Aery. 355 00:18:40,880 --> 00:18:46,120 Speaker 3: Sterling Sterling build a campaign families against mandatory minimum. 356 00:18:46,800 --> 00:18:47,159 Speaker 4: Uh. 357 00:18:47,200 --> 00:18:49,200 Speaker 3: It was a lot of people that came on board 358 00:18:50,400 --> 00:18:53,840 Speaker 3: that uh got involved. And like I say, all my 359 00:18:53,960 --> 00:18:57,240 Speaker 3: writing did not go in vain. I wrote to everybody, right, 360 00:18:57,400 --> 00:18:59,159 Speaker 3: That's all I did was my money in prison was 361 00:18:59,200 --> 00:19:02,840 Speaker 3: about stamps and wrote out and people would you know, 362 00:19:03,160 --> 00:19:09,880 Speaker 3: another guy named Ira Glassner on this radio show called uh, 363 00:19:10,280 --> 00:19:12,679 Speaker 3: I got all this stuff, but his name was just 364 00:19:12,720 --> 00:19:15,760 Speaker 3: people all over that heard about my story just like 365 00:19:15,800 --> 00:19:17,720 Speaker 3: it was a while, I just caught on fire and 366 00:19:17,720 --> 00:19:19,159 Speaker 3: they couldn't believe that this has happened. 367 00:19:21,320 --> 00:19:24,520 Speaker 2: When you found out that you were gonna be how 368 00:19:24,520 --> 00:19:26,280 Speaker 2: did you find out that you were going to be pardoned? 369 00:19:26,320 --> 00:19:28,600 Speaker 4: And okay, it. 370 00:19:28,520 --> 00:19:31,600 Speaker 3: Was the twenty second day of December. Uh, you know, 371 00:19:31,840 --> 00:19:35,280 Speaker 3: it was that Friday before Christmas coming up. And in prison, 372 00:19:35,760 --> 00:19:38,280 Speaker 3: they always give you a Christmas bag to everybody that's 373 00:19:38,320 --> 00:19:38,760 Speaker 3: in prison. 374 00:19:38,840 --> 00:19:41,720 Speaker 4: They had locked down for lunch. Well, I called home 375 00:19:41,760 --> 00:19:43,160 Speaker 4: that morning. I call home. 376 00:19:43,200 --> 00:19:45,280 Speaker 3: I always call my children on and I call home 377 00:19:45,320 --> 00:19:47,800 Speaker 3: that Friday morning, and my kids will telling me, well, 378 00:19:47,840 --> 00:19:49,760 Speaker 3: a lot of press that come to the prison, but 379 00:19:49,840 --> 00:19:50,959 Speaker 3: put it in a lot of press. 380 00:19:51,080 --> 00:19:52,439 Speaker 4: They come to the prison and interview me. 381 00:19:53,240 --> 00:19:55,720 Speaker 3: And I had an interview supposed to been that Friday morning, 382 00:19:55,960 --> 00:19:57,919 Speaker 3: and the guy put the interview off and told me 383 00:19:58,119 --> 00:20:00,960 Speaker 3: he was gonna come on that Monday. 384 00:20:03,200 --> 00:20:05,200 Speaker 4: So that Friday morning, I called home. 385 00:20:05,320 --> 00:20:08,320 Speaker 3: My kids told me, said, Mama, someth going on because 386 00:20:08,359 --> 00:20:11,080 Speaker 3: a lot of people report us been calling us all morning. 387 00:20:11,600 --> 00:20:14,520 Speaker 3: So then I asked to use the phone. Of course, 388 00:20:14,560 --> 00:20:16,840 Speaker 3: you know you got women's in prison. They love soap operas. 389 00:20:16,840 --> 00:20:19,000 Speaker 3: They're not gonna let you see the TV or any 390 00:20:19,000 --> 00:20:21,399 Speaker 3: of that. So about one o'clock I came into the 391 00:20:21,640 --> 00:20:24,520 Speaker 3: unity lockdown to give us all the Christmas bag for Christmas, 392 00:20:24,600 --> 00:20:26,240 Speaker 3: and I happened to call my attorney. I had to 393 00:20:26,320 --> 00:20:28,960 Speaker 3: end up with some pro bono attorneys that heard about 394 00:20:29,000 --> 00:20:33,120 Speaker 3: my case out of Maryland. I think it was Maryland 395 00:20:33,520 --> 00:20:37,040 Speaker 3: shot Holler and Stewart Firn and I called, and my 396 00:20:37,119 --> 00:20:39,000 Speaker 3: lawyer say, doth what are you doing? 397 00:20:39,560 --> 00:20:40,080 Speaker 4: Where are you at? 398 00:20:40,119 --> 00:20:42,160 Speaker 3: I said, wait the hell you think I'm in prison? 399 00:20:42,200 --> 00:20:44,360 Speaker 3: You know, just like that, he said, you're in prison. 400 00:20:45,320 --> 00:20:47,240 Speaker 3: She said you got released it. I said, all I 401 00:20:47,240 --> 00:20:49,280 Speaker 3: got released? They she said, yeah, you and Kimba Smith 402 00:20:49,320 --> 00:20:52,320 Speaker 3: got released day and I just they said I fainted. 403 00:20:52,920 --> 00:20:54,280 Speaker 4: I don't know, I fainted. 404 00:20:56,560 --> 00:20:58,440 Speaker 5: You got released on the same day as Kimber. 405 00:20:59,119 --> 00:21:01,920 Speaker 4: Yeah, he would really he spoke of us that day. Wow, 406 00:21:03,240 --> 00:21:04,359 Speaker 4: he's still twenty seven. 407 00:21:06,400 --> 00:21:10,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, we've Kembas says, we've talked to Kemba and and 408 00:21:10,720 --> 00:21:11,200 Speaker 2: she's got it. 409 00:21:11,359 --> 00:21:13,120 Speaker 5: She's actually there working. 410 00:21:12,920 --> 00:21:15,960 Speaker 2: On a feature film about her, and she had to 411 00:21:16,040 --> 00:21:18,920 Speaker 2: check with her attorneys to make sure that what we're 412 00:21:18,960 --> 00:21:20,480 Speaker 2: doing is not going to interfere with. 413 00:21:21,960 --> 00:21:24,280 Speaker 5: The future film. So hopefully i'll hear back from herny day. 414 00:21:25,040 --> 00:21:28,399 Speaker 2: Yeah, but she as you know, she she gave us 415 00:21:28,440 --> 00:21:29,800 Speaker 2: a lot of good stuff for the book. 416 00:21:30,119 --> 00:21:30,879 Speaker 5: But I didn't know that. 417 00:21:30,880 --> 00:21:34,040 Speaker 2: That's that's interesting, all right, So tell me about the 418 00:21:34,080 --> 00:21:39,400 Speaker 2: transition once you left Once you left prison, what was that. 419 00:21:39,280 --> 00:21:40,280 Speaker 5: Transition like for you? 420 00:21:40,359 --> 00:21:42,640 Speaker 2: What did you see in your family, what did you see, 421 00:21:43,000 --> 00:21:44,600 Speaker 2: what did you think was ahead for you? 422 00:21:44,760 --> 00:21:45,520 Speaker 5: Where you could go. 423 00:21:46,720 --> 00:21:50,879 Speaker 3: Well, when I left prison that day, my son, when 424 00:21:50,920 --> 00:21:52,600 Speaker 3: I got home, you know, of course, was. 425 00:21:52,520 --> 00:21:55,480 Speaker 4: So much media around, so much media. 426 00:21:55,560 --> 00:21:58,960 Speaker 3: And when I got home, my uh my kids kept 427 00:21:59,160 --> 00:22:01,439 Speaker 3: pitching me because they couldn't believe I was real. They 428 00:22:01,480 --> 00:22:03,960 Speaker 3: couldn't believe that I was there, or my son, and 429 00:22:04,000 --> 00:22:06,840 Speaker 3: you could see that he was just he just was 430 00:22:07,040 --> 00:22:09,399 Speaker 3: I don't know, he just was standing off and she 431 00:22:09,600 --> 00:22:11,880 Speaker 3: just he couldn't just believe that I was home. 432 00:22:12,720 --> 00:22:13,800 Speaker 4: And you know, I saw. 433 00:22:13,720 --> 00:22:16,000 Speaker 3: That all the damage had been done, was going on, 434 00:22:16,200 --> 00:22:18,480 Speaker 3: and it's like you walk into a fire and you 435 00:22:19,280 --> 00:22:21,199 Speaker 3: see it, but then you don't know which way to 436 00:22:21,240 --> 00:22:24,320 Speaker 3: go with it. And you know, the worst day right 437 00:22:24,320 --> 00:22:27,240 Speaker 3: now that I regret that I did not sit down 438 00:22:27,359 --> 00:22:29,920 Speaker 3: instead of coming out trying to fight the law, trying 439 00:22:29,920 --> 00:22:32,560 Speaker 3: to do everything for everybody doingthing, I didn't sit down 440 00:22:32,560 --> 00:22:34,200 Speaker 3: with my kids to really find out what they had 441 00:22:34,240 --> 00:22:38,800 Speaker 3: been through mentally and try to get them some help mentally. 442 00:22:39,600 --> 00:22:40,879 Speaker 3: And I'll tell you about it. They come out of 443 00:22:40,920 --> 00:22:43,400 Speaker 3: here and your children been hurt. To first put time 444 00:22:43,440 --> 00:22:45,760 Speaker 3: with your kids and find what did they go through 445 00:22:45,800 --> 00:22:49,960 Speaker 3: and what need to be done. Because I was thinking 446 00:22:50,000 --> 00:22:52,720 Speaker 3: that by me coming home that was a healing part. 447 00:22:52,920 --> 00:22:55,200 Speaker 3: That was all they needed. That wasn't all they needed. 448 00:22:55,280 --> 00:22:58,480 Speaker 3: I needed to see what had happened to them that Davids. 449 00:22:58,480 --> 00:22:59,160 Speaker 3: They had been done. 450 00:23:00,400 --> 00:23:03,200 Speaker 2: So Dorothy, take us through those first five or six 451 00:23:03,280 --> 00:23:05,480 Speaker 2: years when you're now out and what are you trying 452 00:23:05,520 --> 00:23:12,000 Speaker 2: to do to accliment yourself back into society, help your 453 00:23:12,000 --> 00:23:14,920 Speaker 2: family and also make sure this isn't going to happen 454 00:23:14,920 --> 00:23:17,720 Speaker 2: to anyone else if you could well. 455 00:23:17,600 --> 00:23:18,520 Speaker 4: That was the main thing. 456 00:23:18,640 --> 00:23:21,680 Speaker 3: The focus was trying to make sure other women's and 457 00:23:22,240 --> 00:23:25,320 Speaker 3: people knew about after I had experienced a hard weight, 458 00:23:25,640 --> 00:23:27,560 Speaker 3: trying to make sure that it was out in the 459 00:23:27,560 --> 00:23:30,200 Speaker 3: public about crack cocaine. It was out in the pub 460 00:23:30,240 --> 00:23:32,840 Speaker 3: about the conspiracy law. The main thing is people don't 461 00:23:32,880 --> 00:23:35,439 Speaker 3: understand the conspiracy law. And then that's when there's a 462 00:23:38,119 --> 00:23:40,479 Speaker 3: guilt by association came out that I don't know if 463 00:23:40,520 --> 00:23:44,080 Speaker 3: a lot of people have. That explains a lot about 464 00:23:44,080 --> 00:23:47,000 Speaker 3: how women get cooked up with guys like I did 465 00:23:48,320 --> 00:23:52,520 Speaker 3: with Mercedes ral playing that role, you know. And then 466 00:23:52,560 --> 00:23:55,399 Speaker 3: they did the Snitch thing in nineteen ninety nine with 467 00:23:57,280 --> 00:24:00,480 Speaker 3: PBS front Line that shared a lot of light on 468 00:24:01,000 --> 00:24:04,320 Speaker 3: how this thing happens when it comes to snitching. You know, 469 00:24:04,320 --> 00:24:05,520 Speaker 3: you don't have to know it for it. Just get 470 00:24:05,520 --> 00:24:08,760 Speaker 3: people just a lot that bothers me a lot. So 471 00:24:08,800 --> 00:24:10,760 Speaker 3: you know, it's a lot of light has been shedded, 472 00:24:11,240 --> 00:24:12,600 Speaker 3: you know. And I have to say that, you know, 473 00:24:12,720 --> 00:24:14,960 Speaker 3: I put put a lot of focus out there. Again, 474 00:24:15,040 --> 00:24:17,200 Speaker 3: like I said, I should have been trying to find 475 00:24:17,200 --> 00:24:19,600 Speaker 3: out what was going on my kids, and now I'm 476 00:24:19,640 --> 00:24:20,280 Speaker 3: I'm the review. 477 00:24:20,359 --> 00:24:22,199 Speaker 4: Percussion is in my left. You know. I did all 478 00:24:22,240 --> 00:24:24,920 Speaker 4: that running around here there and young and now I'm. 479 00:24:24,760 --> 00:24:27,600 Speaker 3: Still suffering with these kids that that got messed up 480 00:24:27,640 --> 00:24:30,680 Speaker 3: doing these drug logs while I was gone, and it's 481 00:24:30,720 --> 00:24:33,439 Speaker 3: like a recycled thing. It's drifted on down to the 482 00:24:33,480 --> 00:24:35,119 Speaker 3: next generation of kids. 483 00:24:36,480 --> 00:24:39,520 Speaker 2: Tell us take us through your personal life. How long 484 00:24:39,520 --> 00:24:41,280 Speaker 2: it took you to Readjust did you. 485 00:24:41,280 --> 00:24:43,880 Speaker 5: Were able to get work? Were you uh were. 486 00:24:43,760 --> 00:24:46,040 Speaker 2: You struggling to find work? And how what was happening 487 00:24:46,080 --> 00:24:47,080 Speaker 2: with your family at the time. 488 00:24:47,880 --> 00:24:50,320 Speaker 4: It's been a struggle since I come home, Dave. 489 00:24:50,560 --> 00:24:54,080 Speaker 3: It's I mean, uh, the work ethic thing with you know, 490 00:24:54,160 --> 00:24:55,960 Speaker 3: with that fellow thing I had on my work because 491 00:24:55,960 --> 00:24:59,480 Speaker 3: I was I was commentated, but I wasn't partnered, so 492 00:24:59,640 --> 00:25:01,000 Speaker 3: you know it it was a long time, a lot 493 00:25:01,040 --> 00:25:02,680 Speaker 3: of things, housing and all. 494 00:25:03,800 --> 00:25:05,399 Speaker 4: You know, there wasn't let you get housed if you 495 00:25:05,440 --> 00:25:07,399 Speaker 4: had a drug fell on the record. It was a 496 00:25:07,480 --> 00:25:08,280 Speaker 4: lot going on that. 497 00:25:08,320 --> 00:25:10,680 Speaker 3: We had to fight through, even with voting rights, so 498 00:25:10,800 --> 00:25:13,160 Speaker 3: we I had to get out fighting for voting, fighting 499 00:25:13,200 --> 00:25:15,399 Speaker 3: for housing, and fighting for food stamp. You had to 500 00:25:15,480 --> 00:25:18,679 Speaker 3: fight all these things because you could rob somebody, kill somebody, 501 00:25:18,920 --> 00:25:20,960 Speaker 3: you would be utible for housing and foodstack. But if 502 00:25:21,000 --> 00:25:22,520 Speaker 3: you had a drug record, you couldn't. 503 00:25:25,320 --> 00:25:26,400 Speaker 4: So it was a still a fight. 504 00:25:27,320 --> 00:25:30,240 Speaker 5: And how long did that is? That? Does that exist today? 505 00:25:30,359 --> 00:25:32,720 Speaker 3: Is that A lot of it still exists today. A 506 00:25:32,800 --> 00:25:35,000 Speaker 3: lot of it still exist today. A lot of it 507 00:25:35,359 --> 00:25:37,680 Speaker 3: is getting better, but you know, it's still a fight. 508 00:25:38,240 --> 00:25:40,000 Speaker 3: It's so much when you have a drug record. 509 00:25:41,440 --> 00:25:43,879 Speaker 2: Take us now through how your family evolved, when you 510 00:25:44,040 --> 00:25:47,040 Speaker 2: when you were released, when your your sentence was commutated 511 00:25:47,359 --> 00:25:53,000 Speaker 2: or commuted, how you tried to keep the family together, 512 00:25:53,080 --> 00:25:55,080 Speaker 2: how the family evolved, What happened in the family. 513 00:25:55,680 --> 00:25:58,399 Speaker 3: Yeah, Uh, well, when I came home, you know, my 514 00:25:58,560 --> 00:26:01,040 Speaker 3: daughter had come out of college to raise my kids. 515 00:26:01,119 --> 00:26:03,280 Speaker 3: My eighteen year old daughter had to stop school and 516 00:26:03,440 --> 00:26:05,320 Speaker 3: she had three kids of her own, and she had 517 00:26:05,359 --> 00:26:09,720 Speaker 3: to take on my kids, and it was just impacted home, 518 00:26:11,920 --> 00:26:13,919 Speaker 3: her trying to struggle and take care of the kids, 519 00:26:14,720 --> 00:26:19,960 Speaker 3: and me myself coming out as another person involved in. 520 00:26:21,119 --> 00:26:21,600 Speaker 5: It was like. 521 00:26:23,240 --> 00:26:27,040 Speaker 3: I'm trying to the perfect word for it. It's like 522 00:26:27,119 --> 00:26:31,240 Speaker 3: it's a bottle of struggle. But it's still is not 523 00:26:31,480 --> 00:26:34,359 Speaker 3: any opening there, you know, It's just it's still this 524 00:26:34,480 --> 00:26:35,680 Speaker 3: cycle just still goes on. 525 00:26:35,880 --> 00:26:38,240 Speaker 4: It's not where are you just free minded that you 526 00:26:38,400 --> 00:26:40,520 Speaker 4: just everything is going all right? 527 00:26:41,000 --> 00:26:41,320 Speaker 5: It's not. 528 00:26:42,840 --> 00:26:43,119 Speaker 4: It's not. 529 00:26:43,280 --> 00:26:46,359 Speaker 3: It's a struggle there that had just messed up the 530 00:26:46,440 --> 00:26:50,120 Speaker 3: whole life of the family, and it just goes from 531 00:26:50,280 --> 00:26:51,400 Speaker 3: year to year. 532 00:26:51,280 --> 00:26:53,400 Speaker 4: To year and it's not getting a break. 533 00:26:54,440 --> 00:26:57,760 Speaker 2: And what happened to your How does your daughter's life evolve? 534 00:26:58,400 --> 00:27:00,159 Speaker 2: You tell us a little bit about your son to 535 00:27:00,200 --> 00:27:02,000 Speaker 2: be more specific about what happened to all of them. 536 00:27:02,560 --> 00:27:05,200 Speaker 3: Okay, my oldest daughter when I left, was eighteen. She 537 00:27:05,320 --> 00:27:08,800 Speaker 3: was in going into college. She was the one that 538 00:27:09,280 --> 00:27:12,080 Speaker 3: took on my two smaller kid to cause she didn't 539 00:27:12,080 --> 00:27:14,280 Speaker 3: want them to go into aposter care because my mother 540 00:27:14,400 --> 00:27:17,280 Speaker 3: had counsel anyway, you know, so she didn't want to 541 00:27:17,359 --> 00:27:19,520 Speaker 3: go in there. So she took all that big responsibility 542 00:27:19,640 --> 00:27:22,960 Speaker 3: herself and you know, and family is allso they're gonna 543 00:27:23,000 --> 00:27:26,960 Speaker 3: stand by and help you. But after so long people disappear. 544 00:27:28,080 --> 00:27:31,199 Speaker 3: They'll say they're gonna do something, they disappear. So all 545 00:27:31,320 --> 00:27:33,719 Speaker 3: this struggle for the time I was gone was on her. 546 00:27:35,320 --> 00:27:38,280 Speaker 3: Her burden along with trying to go to school and 547 00:27:38,320 --> 00:27:41,119 Speaker 3: take care of her family, and then with the problem 548 00:27:41,200 --> 00:27:43,399 Speaker 3: that my two children had, which was charged with you 549 00:27:43,480 --> 00:27:45,720 Speaker 3: at that time was eleven, That's what I told you, 550 00:27:45,800 --> 00:27:48,080 Speaker 3: that was molested by a family member and she ended 551 00:27:48,160 --> 00:27:50,680 Speaker 3: up on drugs and alcohol and still on drugs and 552 00:27:50,720 --> 00:27:51,920 Speaker 3: alcohol that to this day. 553 00:27:52,960 --> 00:27:54,760 Speaker 4: That's why I'm having to help take care of her 554 00:27:54,920 --> 00:27:55,479 Speaker 4: kids now. 555 00:27:57,480 --> 00:28:00,399 Speaker 3: And Natasha is the oldest, which she's she has a 556 00:28:00,480 --> 00:28:02,119 Speaker 3: level head, but that was a big verd but she 557 00:28:02,200 --> 00:28:06,399 Speaker 3: has a something like a counselor thing going on with 558 00:28:06,520 --> 00:28:09,399 Speaker 3: her right now. So she's on a lot of pressure, 559 00:28:09,480 --> 00:28:12,760 Speaker 3: sick herself. That's the oldest child. And you know, we 560 00:28:13,080 --> 00:28:15,880 Speaker 3: know we talked about what Philip had, but Philip has 561 00:28:15,960 --> 00:28:19,240 Speaker 3: one daughter that she is struggling mentally, that tried to 562 00:28:19,320 --> 00:28:22,240 Speaker 3: kill herself a month ago, and I'm having to help 563 00:28:22,320 --> 00:28:23,560 Speaker 3: take care of his child. 564 00:28:24,080 --> 00:28:25,600 Speaker 4: So that's just the way it's going on now. 565 00:28:26,640 --> 00:28:29,200 Speaker 5: The oldest daughter. What is she is? She does she 566 00:28:29,280 --> 00:28:30,560 Speaker 5: have a profession? Is she able to? 567 00:28:30,920 --> 00:28:33,560 Speaker 4: My oldest daughter was going to school to be an attorney, 568 00:28:33,960 --> 00:28:39,560 Speaker 4: but now she her profession. She's a school teacher. She's 569 00:28:39,600 --> 00:28:40,760 Speaker 4: a school teacher, and. 570 00:28:40,840 --> 00:28:43,719 Speaker 3: She tried to teach criminal justice within the school system 571 00:28:44,120 --> 00:28:46,360 Speaker 3: to try and tell kids about it. And I've been 572 00:28:46,400 --> 00:28:48,720 Speaker 3: over to her school to speak. But she is she's 573 00:28:48,800 --> 00:28:51,280 Speaker 3: a school teacher with the criminal justice side on that. 574 00:28:51,600 --> 00:28:53,520 Speaker 3: So she's doing good trying to keep kids out of 575 00:28:53,880 --> 00:28:54,720 Speaker 3: trouble in school. 576 00:28:55,560 --> 00:28:59,080 Speaker 5: Okay, that's interesting. That's very positive. I mean, that's that's fantastic. 577 00:29:00,040 --> 00:29:01,080 Speaker 4: Yeah, she's doing good with that. 578 00:29:01,840 --> 00:29:04,720 Speaker 5: Okay. What what do you think was the clincher to 579 00:29:04,800 --> 00:29:06,320 Speaker 5: get you your sentence commuted? 580 00:29:08,760 --> 00:29:14,280 Speaker 3: Well, like I said, all the publicity that I did have, UH, 581 00:29:14,480 --> 00:29:17,160 Speaker 3: my son wrote a lot of letters to the judge, 582 00:29:17,200 --> 00:29:20,080 Speaker 3: and I also wrote the president and my kids UH, 583 00:29:20,920 --> 00:29:25,640 Speaker 3: the campaigns that family against mandatory minimum and Eric Sterling 584 00:29:26,040 --> 00:29:31,120 Speaker 3: iran UH and then with the probo on lawyers out 585 00:29:31,160 --> 00:29:33,320 Speaker 3: of UH the trot hollering Steward, they was able to 586 00:29:33,360 --> 00:29:34,640 Speaker 3: have a sit down talk with. 587 00:29:36,240 --> 00:29:39,840 Speaker 4: UH Eric holding mm HM, which was the Attorney general 588 00:29:39,880 --> 00:29:42,160 Speaker 4: at that My sister Attorney General. So it was a 589 00:29:42,240 --> 00:29:42,800 Speaker 4: lot of things. 590 00:29:42,880 --> 00:29:46,080 Speaker 3: Played a lot of roles in that I put yourself 591 00:29:46,120 --> 00:29:48,480 Speaker 3: out there in the immediate and people reading about it, 592 00:29:49,040 --> 00:29:50,960 Speaker 3: and people people, a lot of people just don't know that. 593 00:29:51,040 --> 00:29:52,880 Speaker 3: People a lot of people think that when people go 594 00:29:52,960 --> 00:29:55,960 Speaker 3: to prison they actually held ten keys of drugs. They 595 00:29:56,000 --> 00:29:57,920 Speaker 3: don't think that people set up in prison because they 596 00:29:58,200 --> 00:30:02,040 Speaker 3: had knowledge of I didn't help the process, you know, 597 00:30:02,120 --> 00:30:04,400 Speaker 3: And this is something that I wanted people to know, 598 00:30:04,920 --> 00:30:07,240 Speaker 3: especially when they set the people over in England to 599 00:30:07,240 --> 00:30:08,160 Speaker 3: come over here and interview me. 600 00:30:08,520 --> 00:30:10,840 Speaker 4: I mean, hey, they couldn't believe that you say, actually 601 00:30:10,880 --> 00:30:13,960 Speaker 4: sending people to prison, you damaged the family for life? 602 00:30:14,520 --> 00:30:18,960 Speaker 4: For what reason? That's what I don't get. For what reason? 603 00:30:19,160 --> 00:30:20,840 Speaker 4: I told them they could give me the life on 604 00:30:21,040 --> 00:30:23,160 Speaker 4: a monitor, life on probation. 605 00:30:23,360 --> 00:30:25,320 Speaker 3: I didn't care as long as I didn't leave my 606 00:30:25,520 --> 00:30:27,840 Speaker 3: children because I knew what the damage was gonna be. 607 00:30:29,400 --> 00:30:31,440 Speaker 2: How do you put this all in perspective, all these 608 00:30:31,480 --> 00:30:34,640 Speaker 2: things that have happened to you, and and sort of 609 00:30:34,880 --> 00:30:38,880 Speaker 2: justify or accept all this and put it all on perspective. 610 00:30:39,320 --> 00:30:41,520 Speaker 3: Every time my phone ring and I see that prison 611 00:30:41,640 --> 00:30:45,120 Speaker 3: number come across my screen, I'm scared to answer because 612 00:30:45,160 --> 00:30:48,480 Speaker 3: you never know what has happened on the inside. You know, 613 00:30:48,880 --> 00:30:50,640 Speaker 3: my phone ring at two o'clock in the morning, I 614 00:30:50,680 --> 00:30:52,400 Speaker 3: don't know if somebody calling to him my son has 615 00:30:52,400 --> 00:30:55,280 Speaker 3: gotten killed, because I've had those tragic. 616 00:30:55,080 --> 00:30:58,080 Speaker 4: Phone calls before. So you know, it's just you. 617 00:30:58,400 --> 00:31:02,080 Speaker 3: I live every day on pen and needs afraid. I 618 00:31:02,200 --> 00:31:04,240 Speaker 3: have not been in peace since I've been out of prison. 619 00:31:04,760 --> 00:31:07,520 Speaker 3: I'm still in prison. I'm just I've just got my freedom, 620 00:31:07,560 --> 00:31:11,840 Speaker 3: but I'm I'm I'm mentally in prison still. And then 621 00:31:12,040 --> 00:31:16,760 Speaker 3: and then uh, legacy to me, you know, like it 622 00:31:16,880 --> 00:31:21,200 Speaker 3: was a mistake. You know, a good guy that made 623 00:31:21,200 --> 00:31:23,240 Speaker 3: a bad choice, and he didn't know he was making 624 00:31:23,280 --> 00:31:23,920 Speaker 3: that bad choice. 625 00:31:23,960 --> 00:31:26,040 Speaker 4: He didn't know. I know he didn't. I'm quite sure. 626 00:31:26,080 --> 00:31:27,400 Speaker 3: I know he didn't know that he was gonna o 627 00:31:27,520 --> 00:31:30,760 Speaker 3: D on those drugs. But it wasn't it wasn't what 628 00:31:30,960 --> 00:31:34,880 Speaker 3: he done. It was a choice he made. The prosecutors 629 00:31:35,120 --> 00:31:39,280 Speaker 3: the federal government, because they're still locking people up for 630 00:31:39,480 --> 00:31:43,440 Speaker 3: life on drug charges. They're not looking into the fact 631 00:31:43,480 --> 00:31:45,640 Speaker 3: of how many children that you are, you are you 632 00:31:45,720 --> 00:31:48,640 Speaker 3: are bringing into the prison system by locking their parents up. 633 00:31:48,880 --> 00:31:50,520 Speaker 3: They need to get to the barb and see see 634 00:31:50,560 --> 00:31:52,040 Speaker 3: a lot of this stuff going on with these kids. 635 00:31:52,120 --> 00:31:55,400 Speaker 3: Now it's mentally because you don't know what has happened 636 00:31:55,480 --> 00:31:57,480 Speaker 3: in these kids life that has. 637 00:31:57,640 --> 00:31:59,400 Speaker 4: Caused them to do the things they're doing. 638 00:31:59,600 --> 00:32:01,800 Speaker 3: Then I breaking down and make sure these children see 639 00:32:01,840 --> 00:32:04,880 Speaker 3: that pair that is important when a child is a 640 00:32:05,040 --> 00:32:07,640 Speaker 3: mother and a father's and Trithlen that these children have 641 00:32:07,800 --> 00:32:09,760 Speaker 3: communication with their parents. 642 00:32:10,600 --> 00:32:12,040 Speaker 4: And that's what happened with my kids. 643 00:32:12,200 --> 00:32:15,480 Speaker 3: They had no transportation to come and see me when 644 00:32:15,520 --> 00:32:18,800 Speaker 3: they wanted to come, and when they did come, they 645 00:32:18,920 --> 00:32:21,600 Speaker 3: cried the whole while it was there, not. 646 00:32:21,760 --> 00:32:22,560 Speaker 4: Wanting to leave it. 647 00:32:22,720 --> 00:32:24,920 Speaker 3: They pay off they they didn't even want to work 648 00:32:25,280 --> 00:32:27,960 Speaker 3: to visit room. My children come because they want to 649 00:32:28,040 --> 00:32:29,080 Speaker 3: cry and scream. 650 00:32:29,240 --> 00:32:33,360 Speaker 4: So we were time to go. So your damnity. 651 00:32:33,080 --> 00:32:36,200 Speaker 6: Children aren't flying, But things ain't gonna happen in the 652 00:32:36,280 --> 00:32:37,840 Speaker 6: children you studied down to them. 653 00:32:39,720 --> 00:32:42,920 Speaker 9: That was Dorothy Gaines, who was convicted of drug crimes 654 00:32:43,040 --> 00:32:46,040 Speaker 9: related to the death of Len Bias. Her sentence was 655 00:32:46,120 --> 00:32:53,760 Speaker 9: later commuted by President Bill Clinton. Len Bias a mixed legacy. 656 00:32:54,120 --> 00:32:58,400 Speaker 9: The interviews was produced by Daveon Grady and Don Marcus. 657 00:33:00,520 --> 00:33:02,760 Speaker 9: He had it all strong, quick, and he. 658 00:33:02,880 --> 00:33:04,280 Speaker 5: Was so Len bias. 659 00:33:04,400 --> 00:33:07,800 Speaker 9: A mixed legacy is distributed by the eighth side number. 660 00:33:08,920 --> 00:33:11,080 Speaker 3: Just for greatness and loss, that you're known of all 661 00:33:11,160 --> 00:33:12,480 Speaker 3: of her memories, Remember me. 662 00:33:12,560 --> 00:33:13,640 Speaker 1: I hope they do the same.