Speaker 1: As we draw closer to June tenth. On June nineteenth,
Speaker 1: the anniversary of the day when enslaved people in Texas
Speaker 1: were emancipated two and a half years after the Emancipation
Speaker 1: Proclamation was signed, we offer a remarkable story of the
Speaker 1: black residents of a small town in Florida who fought
Speaker 1: for their right to vote a century ago. This three
Speaker 1: part limited series is brought to you by Procter and Gamble.
Speaker 1: Procter and Gamble believes that words alone won't create change,
Speaker 1: but stories do seek share and expect the whole truth
Speaker 1: of black life. Widen the screen to widen our view.
Speaker 1: They said that you lack parish house was burned. I
Speaker 1: sure it were. This oral history was recorded a few
Speaker 1: years ago with the late Mildred Board. We're hearing a
Speaker 1: courtesy of the Orange County Regional History Center. As a
Speaker 1: little girl, Mrs Board lived a few miles from a Koe, Florida.
Speaker 1: The morning after election Day nineteen hundreds of black families
Speaker 1: fled the town. She remembered. One woman in particular talked
Speaker 1: about how they got on the railroad track and walked
Speaker 1: the railroad track. They walked so far and then maybe
Speaker 1: they had a truck, haws and blugget, and they would
Speaker 1: pick them up along the railroad track and bring them here.
Speaker 1: Almost every surviving black resident fled a Koe after a
Speaker 1: night of horrifying attacks by white vigilantes. Their homes and
Speaker 1: churches were set on fire. A leader of the community,
Speaker 1: July Perry, was lynched. Other neighbors were shot. Estimates of
Speaker 1: the number of black people murdered that night range from
Speaker 1: four to sixty. The reason for them Assaca Koe's black
Speaker 1: residents had attempted to vote. I'm Eugenus Robinson. You're listening
Speaker 1: to the election day massacre from Ozzie Media. Coe was
Speaker 1: a national and international story. And if you look at
Speaker 1: any newspaper in n around election Day, you can't miss
Speaker 1: a Coe. Historian Paul Ortiz the University of Florida, the
Speaker 1: stories in the New York Times, is in the Chicago tribunits,
Speaker 1: in the European press, it's an the Latin American press.
Speaker 1: U it's an international story. In other words, newspapers called
Speaker 1: it the Coe horror. But Florida's election day violence wasn't
Speaker 1: limited to a Koe, So there was a statewide reactionary
Speaker 1: movement against the black struggle to regain right to vote,
Speaker 1: and there was violence all over the state. Um, there
Speaker 1: were gun battles, you know, their assassinations. As far as
Speaker 1: I can tell in my research, the worst violence, the
Speaker 1: most sustained anti black violence, you know, appear to happen
Speaker 1: in a Choe. They call for able bodied ex servicemen
Speaker 1: to come and create a perimeter around a koee. Pamela Schwartz,
Speaker 1: chief curator of the Orange County Regional History Center, put
Speaker 1: together an exhibition on the Echoe massacre. Now they say
Speaker 1: that's to lock down the crime scene, but it also
Speaker 1: means black families can't go find their loved ones, get
Speaker 1: to their possessions. See what's going on. The a CP
Speaker 1: sent in an investigator, Walter Francis White, later president of
Speaker 1: the organization, when he traveled the US investigating lynchings and
Speaker 1: other acts of violence against Black Americans. At the time
Speaker 1: that I visited O'koe, the last colored family of Ocoe
Speaker 1: was leaving with their good It's piled high on a
Speaker 1: motor truck with six colored children on top. White children
Speaker 1: stood around in g The Negroes who were leaving threatened
Speaker 1: them with burned if they did not hurry up and
Speaker 1: get away. These children thought it a huge joke that
Speaker 1: some Negroes had been burned alive. Walter White comes down. Uh,
Speaker 1: he's a very light skinned black man. He can pass
Speaker 1: for white. Uh. He uses the subject usure being a
Speaker 1: white man interested in buying orange grows in western Orange County.
Speaker 1: And he starts talking to white people about the mask,
Speaker 1: and they tell him all sorts of details that I
Speaker 1: personally killed or I know how many Negroes were killed.
Speaker 1: And he finds that white people are very proud about
Speaker 1: what they did on election day. One man told him
Speaker 1: I shot seventeen Negroes. He shot seventeen himself when he
Speaker 1: was bragging about it. Pamela Grady isn't a COOEE resident
Speaker 1: and the executive director of the July Perry Foundation. There
Speaker 1: was an article in a newspaper that said, We're gonna
Speaker 1: have a banquet for everyone who came, and we want
Speaker 1: we want to reward you. The one is shot the
Speaker 1: most Negroes, the one is shot the most is going
Speaker 1: to get a reward. The reason that Koe Horror made
Speaker 1: headlines is not that dozens of black people were murdered
Speaker 1: and hundreds of black families were made homeless. It was
Speaker 1: because two white members of the mob that Lynch July
Speaker 1: Perry were killed during a shootout. There was the Corners
Speaker 1: in quest, which happens November three and four, and what
Speaker 1: is found is no unknown parties killed the white individuals.
Speaker 1: Unknown parties killed July Perry, which was a common report
Speaker 1: leading at dimensions. We had a black victim who was
Speaker 1: in police custody, and all ways the result was killed
Speaker 1: that persons unknown. Marvin Dunn is the author of a
Speaker 1: History of Florida through Black Eyes. When those white men
Speaker 1: took to lay from that jail, those jailers knew every
Speaker 1: man who was in that group. Oh, Cooy was a
Speaker 1: verse ball town. Everybody knew everybody else. Prosecutors called a
Speaker 1: grand jury. In Orange County, there was always a grand
Speaker 1: jury convened. There was always a grand jury convened. And
Speaker 1: who were the members of the grand jury. They would
Speaker 1: have been all white men. So the convening of the
Speaker 1: grand jury meant nothing. Historian Paul Ortiz, people will say, well,
Speaker 1: according to this testimony, July Perry did this with a
Speaker 1: loaded weapon, you know, and and did that in this
Speaker 1: I say, excuse me, whose testimony and number one is
Speaker 1: a testimonies hearsay who's hearsay? Are you? Are you? Depending
Speaker 1: upon were they white? Oh yes, well come on now,
Speaker 1: come please. One of the biggest mysteries is that a
Speaker 1: grand jury was conducted and there was some thirteen or
Speaker 1: fourteen witnesses, only one black man thirteen or fourteen witnesses,
Speaker 1: and that's missing. It's not in anybody's files anywhere. So
Speaker 1: there's a lot of things, a lot of records that
Speaker 1: should have been kept that weren't. The grand jury found
Speaker 1: quote no evidence against any one or group of individuals
Speaker 1: as to who perpetrated the fatalities. Again, I want us
Speaker 1: to be cautious about relying on the words of white leaders,
Speaker 1: be they in the Chamber of Commerce or political officials
Speaker 1: or whatever, because they have a vested interest in jerrymandering
Speaker 1: the story to make it appear as if July period
Speaker 1: is this crazy negro and that's how they that's how
Speaker 1: they referred to him. Things would have been fine if
Speaker 1: it wasn't for this crazy negro. The and jury did
Speaker 1: exonerate the only people who were imprisoned after election day,
Speaker 1: July Perry's wife and daughter, Estelle and Caretha Walter White
Speaker 1: concluded that more than thirty black residents of Okoe were
Speaker 1: murdered on election day. Other estimates put that number as
Speaker 1: high as sixty. The n Double A CP sent White's
Speaker 1: damning report to Congress. When the CP goes before the
Speaker 1: House Census Committee, when Congress convenes in you know, Florida
Speaker 1: is case number one. Walter White had gathered affidavits, statistics, photographs,
Speaker 1: and witness testimony. And so the Double AC Preventment presents
Speaker 1: all this amazing evidence before the Census Committee about fraud
Speaker 1: and corruption and anti black violence, including a COE. This
Speaker 1: is not merely a question of the Negro by any means.
Speaker 1: James Weldon Johnson Double a c p's executive secretary was
Speaker 1: a Floridian born in Jacksonville. He too, would one day
Speaker 1: be president of the A c P. He was an
Speaker 1: attorney and also the poet who wrote the lyrics to
Speaker 1: Lift of Your Voice and Sing. He told the committee
Speaker 1: that the suppression of black voters in the South undermine
Speaker 1: democracy across the entire nation. It is a question of
Speaker 1: Republican government and the fundamentals of American democracy. It is
Speaker 1: a question which is either going to come to this
Speaker 1: Congress or to some other Congress in the future, and
Speaker 1: with increasing force every time it comes up. And it
Speaker 1: seems to me it is better to pass on the
Speaker 1: question fairly and squarely and justly today and not wait
Speaker 1: until some unknown tomorrow. But wait is exactly what Congress did.
Speaker 1: Northern Congressman or and then the committee, They're like, well,
Speaker 1: I mean I don't support negro suffrage. Do you talking
Speaker 1: to their colleague? You know, Negroes don't go where I
Speaker 1: where I am. Why should they have to do that?
Speaker 1: In Florida, we wouldn't put up with that. The Bureau
Speaker 1: of Investigation later named the FBI, launched an inquiry into Koe,
Speaker 1: but it was limited. Was the state local governments suppressing
Speaker 1: black voters. That is what the thing is about. Not
Speaker 1: about murder, not about terror, not about our sin. It
Speaker 1: is about election fraud. The Bureau of Investigation found that
Speaker 1: there was quote no attempt to intimidate any Negroes in
Speaker 1: the casting of their ballots, and that there was no
Speaker 1: interference with the voting of qualified Negroes. Walter White is
Speaker 1: not able as much research and work as he does,
Speaker 1: and he puts his own life on the line time
Speaker 1: and again in Central Florida to try to bring visibility
Speaker 1: to these um these stories and these these events, and
Speaker 1: ultimately really doesn't get much of anywhere with them. I mean, basically,
Speaker 1: you know, white supremacy gets another four decades um of life.
Speaker 1: That's really the most important, you know, kind of an outcome.
Speaker 1: H Politically speaking, it's believed that not a single black
Speaker 1: citizen of Orange County voted for nearly two decades after
Speaker 1: the massacre, and not a single white person was ever
Speaker 1: charged with the crime. Nobody's ever held responsible in any way,
Speaker 1: shape or form for what happens out of Coe. This
Speaker 1: three part limited series is brought to you by Procter
Speaker 1: and Gamble. Procter and Gamble believes that words alone won't
Speaker 1: create change, but stories do seek share and expect the
Speaker 1: whole truth of black life widen the screen to widen
Speaker 1: our view. Black residents continued to flee Akoe in the
Speaker 1: months and years that followed the massacre. July Perry's brother
Speaker 1: in law. A year later. They find him the next day,
Speaker 1: beaten with an announce of his life, stripped painted red
Speaker 1: and white stripe, with a bag overs head tied to
Speaker 1: a pole. He survives. He says that the aggressors told
Speaker 1: him he had been talking a little bit too much
Speaker 1: about what had happened at a Koe Last November, Cents
Speaker 1: is listed two hundred and fifty five black residents of
Speaker 1: a Koe by there were only two, both house servants.
Speaker 1: A lot of total loss of poppets because it didn't
Speaker 1: they went there to bet on taxes. Historian Marvin Dunn
Speaker 1: so a lot of the gloves that were on that
Speaker 1: Blacks were taken over in that way. Within two weeks
Speaker 1: of the election day massacre, there are advertisements in Orlando
Speaker 1: and Miami newspapers orange groves for sale in a Koe,
Speaker 1: including July Perry's. It says, beautiful little groves of the
Speaker 1: negroes who just fled a cop That's what I said
Speaker 1: in the newspaper, Beautiful little groves of the negroes who
Speaker 1: just fled a Koe. That was supposed to be attractive
Speaker 1: to people. The ad was placed by Blueford Sims, one
Speaker 1: of the founders of the town of a Koe. He
Speaker 1: was appointed by a local court to execute the estate
Speaker 1: of July Perry. A Black of Koe resident, Mrs J. H.
Speaker 1: Hammelur wrote to a friend a few weeks later, the
Speaker 1: people in the south of town are being threatened that
Speaker 1: they must sell out and leave or they will be
Speaker 1: shot and burned as the others have been. It seems
Speaker 1: to have been a prearranged affair to kill and drive
Speaker 1: the colored people from their homes, as they were more
Speaker 1: prosperous than the white folks. So they are hoping to
Speaker 1: get their homes for nothing, nak it on. The conditions
Speaker 1: were often an underlying tractor in race riots. I don't
Speaker 1: know of a race riot that took place in a
Speaker 1: poor black area during this period. Before nineteen twenty, the
Speaker 1: black community and a KOE was thriving. July Perry and
Speaker 1: his friend Mose Norman, who had tried to vote an
Speaker 1: election day, were prosperous citizens, and there were jealous is
Speaker 1: among lights about about some of that, and particularly how
Speaker 1: Perry and most Normans showed their wealth as con Carsville
Speaker 1: land at nice homes, and that really led some white
Speaker 1: and cooee. Leading up to this event, the exhibition at
Speaker 1: the Orange County Regional History Center mapped the growth of
Speaker 1: black land ownership around the KOE and then it's disappearance.
Speaker 1: So you see this thirty years slow rise and prosperity.
Speaker 1: Then as you scroll away from November, you come up
Speaker 1: to nineteen thirty. By all the properties have gone back
Speaker 1: to white ownership. So thirty years you see this like
Speaker 1: popping up prosperity, and then in just six years it's
Speaker 1: wiped out. Many Black of Koe residents, including the Perry family,
Speaker 1: tried years to get their property back. The Perrys discovered
Speaker 1: that the deed had been restricted no black person could
Speaker 1: buy the land in Stella and Karifa and family sue said, well,
Speaker 1: they asked the courts. They say, we need an accounting
Speaker 1: of what happened here, like where is the money. It's
Speaker 1: it's been four years at the end when all is
Speaker 1: said and done. Twelve years later, twelve years later, two
Speaker 1: the seven or so descendants of July Perry received one
Speaker 1: hundred and roughly a hundred and twenty six dollars each
Speaker 1: for over thirty acres of land, all of their personal
Speaker 1: property and the death of their patriarch. That twelve years
Speaker 1: they fight to get a hundred and twenty six dollars each,
Speaker 1: and the properties that changed hands weren't scrub land of
Speaker 1: gravel patches, their orange groves and farming lands and lakeside
Speaker 1: property just a dozen miles from the spot where decades
Speaker 1: later a new resort would stand Disney World. All of
Speaker 1: the land that had been owned by black landowners at
Speaker 1: the time of the massacre, that was taken over the
Speaker 1: next six to seven years. It wasn't immediate, like the
Speaker 1: story has always gone, but over the next six years
Speaker 1: is worth well over nine million dollars today. And to
Speaker 1: tell a descendant who should have inherited those lands, could
Speaker 1: have inherited those lands, that that's they could have been
Speaker 1: millionaires is a really, really difficult thing. What these massacres
Speaker 1: and and and programs are all about is that the
Speaker 1: attempt among white business supremacy to roll back black economic
Speaker 1: social political games. It's redistribution of black wealth into white hands,
Speaker 1: is really what happens. And this is what makes a
Speaker 1: coe um almost a mundane story, because it's happening everywhere.
Speaker 1: One of the most disturbing aspects of the Echoe massacre
Speaker 1: is that it was not an isolated event. In the
Speaker 1: next few years, a cooee became a template for horrendous violence.
Speaker 1: Other white communities terrorized their black neighbors and then stole
Speaker 1: their properties again and again. We know that there continues
Speaker 1: to be violence and antype like lynching in adjacent counties,
Speaker 1: kind of secondary effects of the Echoi massacre. There's a
Speaker 1: notorious lynching case in Cassim three which which we think
Speaker 1: is connected to to the Echoe massacre in some ways.
Speaker 1: And it happens in Tulsa, happens in the St. Louis,
Speaker 1: it happens in Chicago, happens along the Texas. It later
Speaker 1: it happens in Rosewood. And that's another theme which ties
Speaker 1: a Coe to today, this question of you know where
Speaker 1: did that black land go? You know, any cases black
Speaker 1: people were driven out by terror tactics, the terror continues
Speaker 1: and continues and continues until it drives the black community out.
Speaker 1: For a half of a century, from up until around
Speaker 1: nineteen seventy six, there are no documented that we were
Speaker 1: aware of black individuals living and residing in Kobe. You
Speaker 1: know where did everybody go? Pamela Greedy And then you
Speaker 1: look for the families and the histories, and you try
Speaker 1: to find where they are today and you can't find people.
Speaker 1: You can't find it. I'm I'm still doing research. You
Speaker 1: can't find them. They just lost and gone. Marvin Dunn,
Speaker 1: author of a history of Florida through Black Eyes. It
Speaker 1: was buried, It was not talked about. It was not
Speaker 1: in the newspapers after the event was over. It was
Speaker 1: certainly not in textbooks. So, like many of the race
Speaker 1: wise in massacres in the South and in Florida, once
Speaker 1: the events left the front page of the newspapers, uh
Speaker 1: they were there, people didn't talk about them. We know
Speaker 1: that there was an ongoing attempt to cover up this event,
Speaker 1: to quiet this event, to get people to stop talking
Speaker 1: about what had happened. Because what happens when people talk
Speaker 1: the truth, the facts start to come out and become known.
Speaker 1: For decades, black folks in central Florida knew that something
Speaker 1: very bad had happened in the Kowe, not just that
Speaker 1: it was a sundown town where they were not welcome
Speaker 1: after dark, but that there were other grave reasons to
Speaker 1: stay away. Then descendants of the victims began trying to
Speaker 1: learn more about the terrible stories handed down in their families.
Speaker 1: Students did research. Over the decades, groups of Orange County
Speaker 1: residents investigated the rumors and conducted oral histories. Today's event
Speaker 1: will not be possible without the decades of community work
Speaker 1: by such grassroots groups as a Democracy Reform and the
Speaker 1: West Orange Reconciliation Task Force, which began to excavate the
Speaker 1: history in nineteen ninety seven. The Democracy Forum, the West
Speaker 1: Orange Reconciliation Task Force, the July Perry Foundation all pieced
Speaker 1: the story together. We have a d research team and
Speaker 1: we are uncovering or where a lot of this land
Speaker 1: is at. It's just a tedious process because you have
Speaker 1: to go bit by bit and undercover. You know, you
Speaker 1: gotta go through obituaries and estates and sales and all that.
Speaker 1: People die and you can't have a wonder where would
Speaker 1: these families be had they had had this generational wealth
Speaker 1: that was strict from them. In two thousand and two,
Speaker 1: July Perry's body was located in an unmarked grave. It
Speaker 1: was discovered in Orlando at a cemetery there July Perry's
Speaker 1: great grandson, Pastor Stephen Nunn, And so we went back
Speaker 1: a mom and dad and I and we um they
Speaker 1: had a memorial service there at the grave site. Eat
Speaker 1: decades after July Perry was lynched, his grandchildren and great
Speaker 1: grandchildren returned to a koe. Yeah, when we finally started
Speaker 1: taking certain turns in certain streets to finally get into
Speaker 1: the area where we uh later ended up. Quickly, I
Speaker 1: was like, wow, this is not Disney World. It's definitely
Speaker 1: Disney World. Um and then it hit It was like wow.
Speaker 1: So now in my head, I could see white sheets,
Speaker 1: I could see guns, I could see extreme racism. I
Speaker 1: could see area that still had a boy Mr kind
Speaker 1: of mindset and some of the spirited people. It was
Speaker 1: crystal clear to me at that point. Just a few
Speaker 1: yards away from July Perry's grave in Orlando's Greenwood Cemetery
Speaker 1: lies the grave of Sam Salisbury, the man who led
Speaker 1: the mob to Perry's house. Salisbury's grave is topped by
Speaker 1: a monument and surrounded by the graves of his family
Speaker 1: and descendants. July Perry's grave stands alone. Good morning, Orlando community,
Speaker 1: Welcome to the historical marking unveiling for July Perry. It
Speaker 1: has been a long road to this day to get here.
Speaker 1: It took almost a century for a public remembrance of
Speaker 1: July Perry, the sacrifice of Mr Perry so that African
Speaker 1: Americans could vote. It's a dark and deadly part of
Speaker 1: our history and one that will not be forgotten. Jerry
Speaker 1: Demmings is the first black mayor of Orange County. His wife,
Speaker 1: Val Demmings, is a member of the United States Congress.
Speaker 1: But I want to be clear this morning that I
Speaker 1: have no illusions, our delusions that anything that we do
Speaker 1: here today, well, right, the wrongs of a racist pass.
Speaker 1: But what we can do. What we can do is
Speaker 1: respect the atumn. What's interesting is so many of my
Speaker 1: colleagues have never even heard of the story. State Senator
Speaker 1: Randolph Bracy's district includes central and northwest Orange County. He
Speaker 1: introduced the bill on the Florida legislature to require that
Speaker 1: schools teach children about the Echoe massacre. A version passed,
Speaker 1: minus a provision to pay reparations to the descendants of
Speaker 1: the victims. As we moved the bill forward and it
Speaker 1: was talked about, debated, and um, they're gained support for it.
Speaker 1: There were some colleagues of mine and say, hey, I
Speaker 1: think we should look at reparations, even on the Republican side.
Speaker 1: So I think there is an opportunity need to look
Speaker 1: at that again, and it's something I'll be pushing. Some
Speaker 1: of the descendants of the Echoe victims are also fighting
Speaker 1: for reparations. Janie Nelson is July Perry's great granddaughter and
Speaker 1: vice president of the July Perry Foundation. The script is
Speaker 1: says thou shalt not steal. They stole it and they
Speaker 1: need to give it back. A century after the Echoe massacre,
Speaker 1: in another presidential election year, the Cooe descendants and activists
Speaker 1: and historians are thinking about what still hasn't changed. We're
Speaker 1: back at this moment where a Coe becomes more important
Speaker 1: than ever, historian Paul Ortiz. Black people are still trying
Speaker 1: to register to vote. Light authorities are trying to find
Speaker 1: different ways to keep them from voting. Supervisors of elections,
Speaker 1: Secretaries of state scheming on ways to try to prevent
Speaker 1: them from participating in the democratic system. Florida is still
Speaker 1: actively involved and vote of suppression historian Marvin Dunn. Overwhelming
Speaker 1: majority of Fillians, white and black, voted for excellence is
Speaker 1: able to vote. The Florida State Legislature comes back immediately
Speaker 1: and passed the law that says all these excellence must
Speaker 1: pay all their institutions and court costs before they can vote.
Speaker 1: So they were immediately read disenfranchised. Pamela Grady of the
Speaker 1: July Perry Foundation. I look at right now at times
Speaker 1: and we're in right now, and how important it is
Speaker 1: to vote, you know, and how important how much went
Speaker 1: in for you know, us to have that right to vote.
Speaker 1: We take it so lightly. The town of a Koe
Speaker 1: is a modern, diverse community, but there are remnants of
Speaker 1: the past. None of the main streets in town is
Speaker 1: named for Blueford Sims, the white man who sold July
Speaker 1: Perry's land after he was lynched, But in the anniversary
Speaker 1: year of his death, another road in a Kowe, a
Speaker 1: state highway is being renamed the Julius July Perry Memorial Highway.
Speaker 1: I think he's a hero, absolutely absolutely. Obviously he was
Speaker 1: overcome and lynched, but we're still talking about him hundred
Speaker 1: years later. So I think in that context, in that
Speaker 1: time period, the life that he lived, the businessman that
Speaker 1: he was, and to have the boldness to do what
Speaker 1: he did, I think it it's heroic. It's really it
Speaker 1: really is. So July Perry had to be and had
Speaker 1: to have been awesome man. And I still can still
Speaker 1: your tear up thinking about it. How what an amazing
Speaker 1: man this was, that was that was gunned down, lynch
Speaker 1: drug and tortured, all for having the courage the courage
Speaker 1: to stand up and fight for a cause, and and
Speaker 1: and to put others first. You know, so do My
Speaker 1: Parry deserves to be the legacy of him to be
Speaker 1: always remembered throughout the rest of time. Our children need
Speaker 1: to know this rich history, Our grandchildren need to know. Okay,
Speaker 1: good morning, good morning children. This morning we will start
Speaker 1: our program with a musical solo of the national Black anthem.
Speaker 1: M hmm. We must not forget the sacrifice of July Period,
Speaker 1: his family and other African Americans killed in this horrific
Speaker 1: massacre as we stand here today to honor their memory.
Speaker 1: I think it's important to knowledge the history and the
Speaker 1: legacy of July Perry be celebrated for for the risk
Speaker 1: that he took, because we'll still find in the same
Speaker 1: fight and he was bold enough to to try to
Speaker 1: make changes are years ago. This episode of Flashback the
Speaker 1: Election Day Massacre was written by Sean Braswell and voiced
Speaker 1: by me Eugene S. Robinson, was produced by Mab mcgoran
Speaker 1: and your a Oh Diggi Zula. Chris Hoff engineered our
Speaker 1: show on