WEBVTT - Going There 0:00:00.160 --> 0:00:06.000 Family Secrets is a production of I Heart Radio. The pressure, 0:00:06.240 --> 0:00:10.280 the dread were constant. Sometimes when the Today Show was over, 0:00:10.440 --> 0:00:13.080 I'd collapse on the floor of the bathroom in my office, 0:00:13.600 --> 0:00:18.240 Bomas cigarette from my hairdresser and sob ridiculous. I know 0:00:18.600 --> 0:00:21.720 my husband has cancer and I'm smoking, but that's how 0:00:21.720 --> 0:00:25.760 completely undone I was. I keep it together for the show, 0:00:26.680 --> 0:00:29.120 the only two hours of my day when I wasn't 0:00:29.120 --> 0:00:34.159 obsessing over j spate, and then at nine oh two am, 0:00:34.200 --> 0:00:39.839 I'd fall apart. You're probably thinking that voice sounds familiar, 0:00:40.360 --> 0:00:45.360 because that's Katie Couric, journalist, news anchor and most recently, 0:00:45.400 --> 0:00:48.000 author of the number one New York Times bestselling memoir 0:00:48.440 --> 0:00:54.080 Going There. Sometimes when someone is very well known, we think, well, 0:00:54.280 --> 0:00:57.120 we think we know them. But if there's one thing 0:00:57.200 --> 0:00:59.760 that hosting this show has taught me, it's that we 0:01:00.000 --> 0:01:03.680 all have secret in our lives, every single one of us. 0:01:04.520 --> 0:01:08.760 Katie's is a story of grit, resilience, and grace, even 0:01:08.840 --> 0:01:23.560 while living under the microscope that is fame. I'm Danny Shapiro, 0:01:23.800 --> 0:01:26.880 and this is family Secrets. The secrets that are kept 0:01:26.880 --> 0:01:29.319 from us, the secrets we keep from others, and the 0:01:29.400 --> 0:01:39.440 secrets we keep from ourselves. So described for me the 0:01:39.520 --> 0:01:45.000 landscape of your childhood, Well, it's a very beautiful landscape. 0:01:45.040 --> 0:01:48.440 And sometimes I feel guilty. As I've gotten older and 0:01:48.640 --> 0:01:53.240 met more people, Danny, I realized that so many of 0:01:53.360 --> 0:01:57.280 us don't have the kind of loving family I had. 0:01:58.000 --> 0:02:05.280 I had really pretty typical in middle class nuclear family 0:02:05.920 --> 0:02:10.600 raising kids in the fifties and sixties and early seventies. 0:02:11.360 --> 0:02:13.800 My parents. My mom was a stay at home mom, 0:02:14.480 --> 0:02:18.639 which I think resulted in some frustration for her. My 0:02:18.760 --> 0:02:23.120 dad was a newspaperman who then went into public relations 0:02:23.160 --> 0:02:26.040 because I think it was hard to support a family 0:02:26.080 --> 0:02:29.720 of four as a single breadwinner as a print reporter. 0:02:30.680 --> 0:02:34.600 And I'm the youngest of four, so that very much 0:02:34.639 --> 0:02:38.799 informed the person I became. I was sort of the entertainer, 0:02:38.960 --> 0:02:41.880 the cut up, you know, the one that would be 0:02:41.960 --> 0:02:46.239 performing for my sisters, gentlemen callers. I was the one 0:02:46.520 --> 0:02:50.040 cracking jokes at the dinner table. My mom would always 0:02:50.160 --> 0:02:53.120 laugh and my father would say eleanor don't encourage her. 0:02:53.960 --> 0:02:59.760 My parents were ambitious for us, but not helicopter parents. 0:03:00.480 --> 0:03:04.880 They wanted us to do well. Education was really emphasized 0:03:04.880 --> 0:03:07.320 in my family. It was very important for us to 0:03:07.360 --> 0:03:10.760 go to a good college and do well academically. I 0:03:10.800 --> 0:03:13.560 did less well than my siblings because I think as 0:03:13.600 --> 0:03:17.960 the last kid, I sort of had more finely tuned 0:03:18.440 --> 0:03:23.520 emotional intelligence and kind of could get away with being 0:03:23.600 --> 0:03:28.440 charming and funny and sweet talking my teachers. It was 0:03:28.480 --> 0:03:34.760 a really happy childhood. No big traumas grandparents died as 0:03:34.800 --> 0:03:39.520 grandparents do. Um, some sickness and my parents, but much 0:03:39.600 --> 0:03:42.880 later in life I would say, from the age of 0:03:43.000 --> 0:03:46.880 zero to forty, I was very blessed. My husband Jay, 0:03:47.080 --> 0:03:48.880 my late husband, used to say, I was born on 0:03:48.880 --> 0:03:52.600 a sunny day and a lot of things really went 0:03:52.680 --> 0:03:56.560 my way for the most part. I grew up in Arlington, Virginia, 0:03:56.560 --> 0:04:00.280 in a suburb just outside Washington, d C. It was 0:04:00.400 --> 0:04:05.360 teaming with kids riding their bikes, playing street baseball, Capture 0:04:05.400 --> 0:04:11.720 the flag, crab apple fights. Um, you know, just very idyllic, 0:04:11.920 --> 0:04:14.560 you know, playing red rover, red rover and red light 0:04:14.600 --> 0:04:19.839 green light, catching lightning bugs at night. It almost sounds 0:04:19.839 --> 0:04:23.000 like a Norman Rockwell painting as I talk of it now, 0:04:23.560 --> 0:04:27.920 I've never heard of crab apple fights. Well, you know, 0:04:28.160 --> 0:04:31.000 we had them little We just throw them at our neighbors, 0:04:31.040 --> 0:04:35.800 and especially at the boys. As Katie grows up in 0:04:35.800 --> 0:04:39.440 this idyllic atmosphere, she learns that sweet talking her teachers 0:04:39.440 --> 0:04:42.720 will only get her so far academically. When she's a 0:04:42.800 --> 0:04:45.920 junior in high school, she buckles down, commits to her 0:04:45.920 --> 0:04:49.480 school work, and gets straight a's. It's an important year 0:04:49.520 --> 0:04:52.719 for colleges, and she has her heart set on attending 0:04:52.720 --> 0:04:57.760 Smith College in Northampton, Massachusetts. I got rejected, not even 0:04:57.800 --> 0:05:02.400 weight listed, for crying out loud, and was particularly painful 0:05:02.480 --> 0:05:05.679 because my sisters had both gone there. My sister Emily 0:05:05.839 --> 0:05:08.920 was five Beta Kappa and Sigma Si, which was a 0:05:08.960 --> 0:05:12.680 science honorary society that I had never heard of. My 0:05:12.760 --> 0:05:15.640 sister Kiki also did really well there, went on to 0:05:15.760 --> 0:05:20.640 Harvard Graduate School. She got her master's and landscape architect 0:05:20.440 --> 0:05:24.200 at the Harvard School of Design. And um, Yeah, it 0:05:24.279 --> 0:05:28.760 was really embarrassing and mortifying that I just got rejected, 0:05:29.600 --> 0:05:33.360 full stop. When I looked back on it, Danny, there 0:05:33.400 --> 0:05:36.160 were other moments when I was disappointed, but they sound 0:05:36.240 --> 0:05:40.719 so silly in hindsight, you know. I remember, I think 0:05:40.760 --> 0:05:46.720 it was in junior high and the cheerleading team. I 0:05:46.760 --> 0:05:50.440 remember this so vividly, was time for the cheerly need 0:05:50.520 --> 0:05:54.240 squad to pick the captain and co captain. And I 0:05:54.360 --> 0:05:57.080 was one of the one of two girls who had 0:05:57.120 --> 0:06:00.000 been accepted to be a cheerleader in eighth grade. Most 0:06:00.040 --> 0:06:04.119 to them were ninth grade. I walked in and I heard, 0:06:04.160 --> 0:06:06.120 you know, there was a lot of whispering, and of 0:06:06.160 --> 0:06:10.080 course I wanted to be captain. Hello, And the gym teacher, 0:06:10.240 --> 0:06:14.559 Mrs Beats, who was in charge of the cheerleader said 0:06:15.240 --> 0:06:18.760 that she was going to pick the captain and co captain, 0:06:19.240 --> 0:06:23.200 which really just was an affront to my democratic principles. 0:06:23.640 --> 0:06:26.800 You know that the gym teacher is not supposed to 0:06:26.839 --> 0:06:32.000 pick the captain and co captain. I was beside myself. 0:06:32.320 --> 0:06:36.440 I was so upset. I came home. I was both 0:06:36.600 --> 0:06:42.719 furious and just terribly upset, and I remember thinking, that 0:06:42.920 --> 0:06:46.720 is so unfair, Like the teacher isn't allowed to do this. 0:06:46.720 --> 0:06:50.160 This is a democratic process. The cheerleaders are supposed to 0:06:50.160 --> 0:06:53.360 pick the captain and co captain. Isn't that funny? And 0:06:53.440 --> 0:06:57.200 that was a big upsetting event in my life, but 0:06:57.360 --> 0:07:01.200 in retrospect probably really important because you know what they 0:07:01.240 --> 0:07:04.200 say about you have to learn how to deal with disappointment. 0:07:04.400 --> 0:07:06.600 You have to learn that life is not fair. You 0:07:06.640 --> 0:07:10.360 have to learn to say, Okay, well that happened. I've 0:07:10.360 --> 0:07:15.720 got to move on, and I did, despite its sting. 0:07:16.120 --> 0:07:19.360 Katie bounces back from the cheerleading incident and continues to 0:07:19.360 --> 0:07:23.040 be involved at school in extracurriculars and keeping her head up. 0:07:23.600 --> 0:07:27.000 She's popular and well liked, but when she receives that 0:07:27.000 --> 0:07:31.320 thin envelope from Smith rejecting her, the news is catastrophic 0:07:31.360 --> 0:07:33.960 for her and opens a fault line that she hadn't 0:07:34.040 --> 0:07:40.400 known was there. She becomes bulimic. I was bulimick for 0:07:40.560 --> 0:07:44.280 probably a total of on and off for maybe six 0:07:44.360 --> 0:07:48.520 or seven years in my sort of late teens to 0:07:48.680 --> 0:07:52.760 my mid to late twenties. But it was very sporadic. 0:07:52.880 --> 0:07:56.560 Sometimes I would do it, you know, several times a week, 0:07:57.120 --> 0:08:00.640 even a few times a day. Sometime I wouldn't do 0:08:00.720 --> 0:08:03.160 it at all. So it was very off and on, 0:08:04.120 --> 0:08:07.679 and I think, gosh, what was that about. I think 0:08:08.000 --> 0:08:13.880 it was about not measuring up, about not meeting expectations, 0:08:14.680 --> 0:08:21.600 about being less than not being perfect, um probably feeling 0:08:21.600 --> 0:08:25.440 guilty that I hadn't applied myself more not following in 0:08:25.560 --> 0:08:29.320 my sister's footsteps. I think that's what it was about, 0:08:29.600 --> 0:08:34.920 and then punishing myself and being angry at myself for 0:08:35.320 --> 0:08:38.720 all the things that I didn't do versus being happy 0:08:38.760 --> 0:08:42.319 about everything I did to right now, that makes a 0:08:42.400 --> 0:08:45.000 lot of sense, and you know so much about attempting 0:08:45.040 --> 0:08:50.199 to control the universe and oneself. I think I also had, 0:08:50.360 --> 0:08:54.360 you know, really bad body image. You know, I was 0:08:54.400 --> 0:08:58.480 a very scrawny, skinny kid. I remember like I weighed 0:08:58.520 --> 0:09:01.320 forty five pounds when I was in fourth grade. You know, 0:09:01.360 --> 0:09:06.600 It's little and wiry, very athletic. And then I really 0:09:06.720 --> 0:09:09.920 hated going through puberty. You know, I've been a really 0:09:09.960 --> 0:09:12.400 fast runner in elementary school. They used to pull me 0:09:12.440 --> 0:09:15.160 out of fourth grade to run against the sixth grade boys, 0:09:15.200 --> 0:09:18.160 and I was so proud of that. When I reached puberty, 0:09:18.280 --> 0:09:21.000 I felt like my body was betrayed me in a way. 0:09:21.120 --> 0:09:26.320 I wasn't as fast. I was more curvy, which I 0:09:26.360 --> 0:09:31.240 didn't like. I didn't really love, you know, having breasts. 0:09:31.520 --> 0:09:34.400 And I grew up in a family where diet culture 0:09:34.600 --> 0:09:37.800 was really strong, where my sisters were always on a 0:09:37.840 --> 0:09:39.760 diet and my mom was always on a diet, and 0:09:39.800 --> 0:09:43.760 there was always tab and fresca and cottage cheese around 0:09:44.280 --> 0:09:48.520 was really during that era, And so I think that 0:09:48.960 --> 0:09:53.000 because I wasn't super thin or tall and willowy, I 0:09:53.120 --> 0:09:58.600 also felt very bad about myself and my appearance. You know, 0:09:58.640 --> 0:10:01.320 I was a little more true. I was kind of 0:10:01.320 --> 0:10:05.800 your classic mes amorph no muscular, but not super thin 0:10:05.920 --> 0:10:08.600 and not tall. I was probably five two or three. 0:10:08.640 --> 0:10:12.760 I'm now barely five four. So I think I was 0:10:12.800 --> 0:10:17.680 also responding to this cultural pressure and societal pressure to 0:10:17.800 --> 0:10:20.600 look a certain way, you know, to look like Twiggy 0:10:20.720 --> 0:10:23.360 or look like the models in seventeen magazine, which I 0:10:23.400 --> 0:10:26.320 did not. Did anybody know that you were going through 0:10:26.360 --> 0:10:31.480 this during those years? Not really. My mom certainly didn't. 0:10:31.960 --> 0:10:35.240 She would have been just so upset, you know, because 0:10:35.280 --> 0:10:40.200 it's so phys physically damaging. I remember mentioning it to 0:10:40.240 --> 0:10:43.960 my sister, my oldest sister, at one point, and her 0:10:44.080 --> 0:10:47.400 confiding to me that she had at times been blimic, 0:10:47.800 --> 0:10:51.559 which I thought was super interesting that, you know, there 0:10:51.600 --> 0:10:57.000 they think there might be some genetic predisposition to eating 0:10:57.040 --> 0:11:01.760 disorders that are then exacerbated by iron Man. But no, 0:11:01.960 --> 0:11:05.280 it was pretty secretive a very small group of people. 0:11:05.320 --> 0:11:08.319 If anyone knew about it, it was shrouded in shame 0:11:08.400 --> 0:11:14.920 and secrecy and self loathing. Where their secrecy their shame, 0:11:15.800 --> 0:11:21.640 Where their secrecy, there's silence. This toxic trio. Secrecy, shame, 0:11:21.960 --> 0:11:26.280 silence form a vicious cycle, one that is very hard 0:11:26.320 --> 0:11:29.760 to break. Of course, Katie doesn't want to talk about it, 0:11:30.240 --> 0:11:33.600 and when one roommate confronts her about her bolimia, she 0:11:33.760 --> 0:11:37.480 quickly moves out. But then she is shaken to the 0:11:37.520 --> 0:11:41.040 core by the tragic death of Karen Carpenter, a singer 0:11:41.080 --> 0:11:44.640 songwriter beloved by a whole generation who died as a 0:11:44.679 --> 0:11:47.480 result of her anorexia at the age of thirty two. 0:11:49.320 --> 0:11:51.920 I mean, I think it was a whole confluence of things. 0:11:52.160 --> 0:11:58.360 I think that that was very shocking when Karen Carpenter died. 0:11:58.480 --> 0:12:00.920 You know, that was sort of the music my middle 0:12:00.960 --> 0:12:05.640 school years. And I think the fact that this could 0:12:05.640 --> 0:12:10.920 actually kill you, I mean, she was antarextic versus bliemic um, 0:12:10.960 --> 0:12:13.920 and maybe she was both. I was just believe it. 0:12:14.000 --> 0:12:17.960 But it really was crushing when Karen Carpenter died, and 0:12:18.000 --> 0:12:21.960 I thought, holy smokes, you can actually die from doing this. 0:12:22.800 --> 0:12:26.200 And I think it just kind of shook me to 0:12:26.320 --> 0:12:29.040 my core. And I thought I'm not gonna do this anymore. 0:12:29.840 --> 0:12:32.800 I never wanted to do it. Like you, It's almost 0:12:32.840 --> 0:12:36.760 like you're so restricted in your diet then you do 0:12:37.000 --> 0:12:40.600 something that's quote unquote bad. You know, it's really weird 0:12:40.640 --> 0:12:44.760 how we ascribe moral judgments to food. You know, I 0:12:44.840 --> 0:12:48.360 was really bad today. I was really good today. And 0:12:48.679 --> 0:12:53.480 I think once I would set up these impossible you know, 0:12:53.520 --> 0:12:55.679 I'm only going to eat an apple and a coffee 0:12:55.720 --> 0:12:58.880 yogurt today, you know, and I'm going to try to 0:12:59.480 --> 0:13:02.640 jump hope and one of those suits that makes you sweat. 0:13:03.280 --> 0:13:05.280 Then if I ate almost I got to the point 0:13:05.320 --> 0:13:07.720 where I had a piece of gum that wasn't sugarless. 0:13:08.080 --> 0:13:10.880 I'd say, I blew it. I blew it. I'm a 0:13:10.960 --> 0:13:14.920 terrible person. Well, I'm gonna have to start tomorrow. I'm 0:13:14.960 --> 0:13:17.319 going to eat everything I can, and then I'd feel 0:13:17.320 --> 0:13:19.240 guilty and then I throw it up. I mean, it 0:13:19.320 --> 0:13:22.520 was just that kind of cycle. And that cycle is 0:13:22.559 --> 0:13:25.560 happening during a period of time where you go to 0:13:25.640 --> 0:13:29.880 college and you start your career. It's like it's during 0:13:29.920 --> 0:13:33.240 a period of time where in the outside world you're 0:13:33.280 --> 0:13:37.360 beginning to you know, find your footing and succeed and 0:13:37.920 --> 0:13:40.160 I think it's true of so many people, I mean 0:13:40.200 --> 0:13:43.040 maybe all people in some way, that there's this kind 0:13:43.040 --> 0:13:46.000 of at times in our lives, this kind of shadow 0:13:46.080 --> 0:13:49.120 life that's going on, that is the other side of 0:13:49.160 --> 0:13:53.360 what people see. Appearances can be deceiving. Yeah, I mean 0:13:53.800 --> 0:13:55.920 it was an exciting time for me, but I was 0:13:56.080 --> 0:13:59.240 it was always this kind of little thing on my shoulder. 0:13:59.640 --> 0:14:03.840 Oh what are you going to eat today? Oh, you 0:14:03.960 --> 0:14:07.680 had two cups of instant hot chocolate when you were 0:14:07.720 --> 0:14:11.839 at ABC News, when you were working the overnights. You're 0:14:12.040 --> 0:14:16.680 terrible person. But it's terrible, Like why why do we 0:14:16.800 --> 0:14:20.360 do this to ourselves? I just don't know. How can 0:14:20.400 --> 0:14:25.680 we have a healthier relationship with food? Because I enjoy food, 0:14:25.760 --> 0:14:28.880 you know, I enjoy eating. I love trying new restaurants, 0:14:28.920 --> 0:14:32.480 and I like the social aspect of eating. But it's 0:14:32.560 --> 0:14:39.440 never it's always accompanied by guilt or shame or the 0:14:39.880 --> 0:14:43.800 judgment that I have no discipline or I shouldn't have 0:14:43.840 --> 0:14:49.760 eaten that. Throughout this period of time, Katie's dating. She's 0:14:49.760 --> 0:14:52.360 a young journalist on the rise, and though her career 0:14:52.400 --> 0:14:54.880 has come first, she reaches a point at which she 0:14:54.920 --> 0:14:59.400 wants to find a partner a real partner. I had 0:14:59.440 --> 0:15:02.520 dated a out in my twenties, all sorts of different people, 0:15:02.560 --> 0:15:05.880 but I had never gotten serious because I knew that 0:15:06.200 --> 0:15:09.240 my job required me to move to different markets, and 0:15:09.360 --> 0:15:12.000 I never wanted to put down roots, say in Miami, 0:15:12.160 --> 0:15:15.000 where I dated a policeman, which was kind of a 0:15:15.040 --> 0:15:18.560 fun different experience for me, one that my mom did 0:15:18.600 --> 0:15:21.800 not approve of at all, to you know, going out 0:15:21.840 --> 0:15:25.160 in Atlanta with the TV director and then an artist 0:15:25.760 --> 0:15:28.920 who lived in the apartment below me. But I felt 0:15:29.560 --> 0:15:32.480 like I wanted to find a partner, and so I'm 0:15:32.560 --> 0:15:35.400 very intentional about most things in my life. When I 0:15:35.440 --> 0:15:37.600 want something, I figure out how I'm going to get it. 0:15:38.400 --> 0:15:41.880 And I was invited to a party and it was 0:15:42.000 --> 0:15:45.840 full of like young twenty very young girls in their 0:15:45.880 --> 0:15:49.240 early twenties, some even college dudents. Because I figured I 0:15:49.400 --> 0:15:54.120 was going to meet some interesting people, especially some young professionals, 0:15:54.840 --> 0:16:00.200 and I remember meeting Jay. We started talking and I 0:16:00.240 --> 0:16:03.720 was immediately attracted to him. We just sort of started 0:16:03.760 --> 0:16:06.840 this kind of fun conversation. I said I was the 0:16:06.840 --> 0:16:09.880 oldest person at the party. He said, I doubt it. 0:16:09.920 --> 0:16:13.040 And we showed each other our driver's license, and indeed 0:16:13.080 --> 0:16:15.280 He was a year older than I, but we were 0:16:15.320 --> 0:16:18.200 born two days apart. I was January seven, he was 0:16:18.280 --> 0:16:22.280 January nine. Anyway, I just found him fun and funny 0:16:22.320 --> 0:16:26.160 and intriguing and nice, and um, I asked him out 0:16:26.200 --> 0:16:28.280 on our first date. I had his business card. I 0:16:28.360 --> 0:16:31.000 called him. He hadn't called me for a few days, 0:16:31.040 --> 0:16:32.840 and I said, I thought you were going to call me, 0:16:32.880 --> 0:16:35.240 and he said, well, apparently I didn't have to. And 0:16:35.280 --> 0:16:37.680 I thought, oh, what a cocky son of a bitch. Okay, 0:16:38.080 --> 0:16:40.880 So we ended up having dinner at a Thai restaurant, 0:16:40.920 --> 0:16:44.080 and you know, he was sort of I told him 0:16:44.120 --> 0:16:47.280 pretty early on in our relationship he was everything I 0:16:47.320 --> 0:16:50.920 was looking for in a partner. He was very smart, 0:16:51.600 --> 0:16:54.840 He was dedicated and devoted to his family. He was 0:16:54.920 --> 0:16:58.080 one of seven kids. He was kind of the go 0:16:58.200 --> 0:17:01.560 to and his family. He was, you know, problem solver. 0:17:01.800 --> 0:17:05.080 He was funny, he was charming. He had this kind 0:17:05.119 --> 0:17:08.720 of old world elegance about him. He lived in a 0:17:08.760 --> 0:17:14.320 basement apartment in Georgetown, but somehow it was just beautifully decorated. 0:17:14.359 --> 0:17:17.400 You know, he had nice antiques and he just had 0:17:17.400 --> 0:17:21.120 a real sense of style and very good taste, and 0:17:21.480 --> 0:17:24.119 that appealed to me a lot. But of course the 0:17:24.200 --> 0:17:29.439 most appealing thing was he was just really a kind person, 0:17:29.600 --> 0:17:35.159 fun to be around, intellectually stimulating. We talked about leon 0:17:35.320 --> 0:17:37.840 Uris's Trinity and he gave me sort of the history 0:17:37.840 --> 0:17:41.600 of Northern Ireland over lunch, and I was thinking, oh wow, 0:17:41.640 --> 0:17:45.800 this is this guy is intense and serious. I really 0:17:45.840 --> 0:17:49.359 fell head over heels for him, and you know, he 0:17:49.560 --> 0:17:54.480 was on the partner track at his law firm. Not 0:17:54.600 --> 0:17:57.640 long after that seminal time meal, Katie and Jay get 0:17:57.680 --> 0:18:00.840 together and get married. As Jay is advancing in his 0:18:00.920 --> 0:18:03.520 law career, Katie is doing the same in her career 0:18:03.560 --> 0:18:07.200 as a television journalist. She's dedicated to her work, she's 0:18:07.240 --> 0:18:10.359 good at it, and she's solidifying her goals for the future. 0:18:12.040 --> 0:18:17.840 I definitely saw myself as sort of the quintessential a 0:18:17.960 --> 0:18:20.719 woman who wanted to quote unquote have it all, but 0:18:20.840 --> 0:18:24.399 who wanted to, you know, have a fulfilling career. I 0:18:24.440 --> 0:18:27.679 think because my mom didn't, and I think my goal 0:18:28.200 --> 0:18:30.440 when I was a local news reporter in Miami, I 0:18:30.520 --> 0:18:32.720 used to say, I want to be a network correspondent 0:18:32.800 --> 0:18:35.879 by the time I'm thirty, and so I had a 0:18:35.960 --> 0:18:40.359 very concrete goal that was my aspiration. So I saw 0:18:40.560 --> 0:18:43.720 us as a two career couple. Maybe I'd be a 0:18:43.800 --> 0:18:48.240 national correspondent working at NBC in Washington or one of 0:18:48.240 --> 0:18:52.000 the networks, or covering Capitol Hill or the White House. 0:18:52.520 --> 0:18:55.160 I just thought that I would be doing something that 0:18:55.240 --> 0:19:00.359 was exciting and interesting and lucrative professionally. You know, my dad. 0:19:00.800 --> 0:19:04.560 I remember I could have gone into radio, and I 0:19:04.640 --> 0:19:07.080 actually tried to get a job at the Washington Post. 0:19:07.480 --> 0:19:10.879 But then I started thinking, well, why not do television. 0:19:10.920 --> 0:19:14.080 You make a lot more money, and you know, if 0:19:14.080 --> 0:19:16.280 my face didn't stop the clock, maybe I could give 0:19:16.320 --> 0:19:18.840 it a try. Yeah, you've got this great line in 0:19:18.880 --> 0:19:22.240 your book, which is I smile big. I smile a lot. 0:19:22.440 --> 0:19:26.879 Even my resting bitch face is a smile. Yeah that's true. 0:19:26.920 --> 0:19:31.320 So it's true. I feel so unnatural and looks so 0:19:31.359 --> 0:19:45.359 weird when I'm not smiling. We'll be right back. So 0:19:45.480 --> 0:19:48.320 life is good for this young married couple, both building 0:19:48.320 --> 0:19:51.840 their lives together and then quite literally building a life together. 0:19:52.480 --> 0:19:57.280 They have their first child, a daughter, Ellie. I've just 0:19:57.320 --> 0:20:00.960 gotten my job on the Today Show and I was 0:20:01.440 --> 0:20:04.640 I think five months pregnant on my first day at 0:20:04.640 --> 0:20:08.119 the Today's Show. So that's where I was when Ellie 0:20:08.160 --> 0:20:10.199 was born, and it was you know, it was a 0:20:10.200 --> 0:20:15.080 wonderful time because nobody likes a baby like the morning 0:20:15.080 --> 0:20:20.159 show audience, right where everyone feels infested in your pregnancy 0:20:20.200 --> 0:20:23.040 and excited and it's you know, it's a big milestone, 0:20:23.080 --> 0:20:25.199 not only for you and your family, but in a 0:20:25.280 --> 0:20:28.560 weird way for the audience, you know, where everything is 0:20:28.640 --> 0:20:31.520 kind of a shared experience on morning television with all 0:20:31.560 --> 0:20:36.200 these sort of para social relationships that are formed between 0:20:36.280 --> 0:20:40.520 viewers and and the people who are on television, even 0:20:40.560 --> 0:20:43.240 more so now because I never really talked about my 0:20:43.359 --> 0:20:46.639 kids when I was on the Today Show. I tried 0:20:46.720 --> 0:20:50.080 only at times when it seemed more natural, like showing 0:20:50.080 --> 0:20:52.639 a photo of Carrie or Ellie when they were born, 0:20:52.840 --> 0:20:56.199 or having them come in occasionally if Britney Spears was 0:20:56.280 --> 0:21:00.040 performing or something like that. But um, this idea of 0:21:00.080 --> 0:21:03.680 really really putting your kids out front was just not 0:21:03.800 --> 0:21:06.800 done back then as much as it is now because 0:21:06.840 --> 0:21:10.639 of social media and because you know, we live in 0:21:10.680 --> 0:21:15.400 an oversharing culture, right. So anyway, it was a very 0:21:15.480 --> 0:21:21.240 exciting time and everyone sort of celebrated Ellie's birth. It 0:21:21.359 --> 0:21:24.280 was it was wonderful, But I went through a period 0:21:24.320 --> 0:21:27.119 of time and I wanted to talk about this Danny, 0:21:27.200 --> 0:21:31.359 because again, I think this is something people are ashamed 0:21:31.400 --> 0:21:33.920 of and don't want to admit. I was really afraid 0:21:34.080 --> 0:21:37.439 of hurting Ellie. I was afraid of dropping her, but 0:21:37.560 --> 0:21:40.520 also kind of the feeling that you get some people 0:21:40.560 --> 0:21:44.000 get when they're on a tall balcony and they think, oh, 0:21:44.040 --> 0:21:48.960 I could just crawl over this railing and jump and 0:21:49.080 --> 0:21:52.080 end it all, and you're not going to do it, 0:21:52.480 --> 0:21:56.600 but you're scared that you could. I think some of 0:21:56.640 --> 0:21:59.280 your listeners will think I'm out of my mind, and 0:21:59.359 --> 0:22:03.200 others will say, I know exactly what you mean. And 0:22:03.720 --> 0:22:07.240 so I think that translated into what if I like 0:22:07.680 --> 0:22:10.760 Leevelly or I think it's this hyper vigilance you feel 0:22:10.840 --> 0:22:14.320 as a parent. It's almost a primitive thing as a mother, 0:22:14.560 --> 0:22:17.720 and it's almost like, gosh, you know, I have so 0:22:17.800 --> 0:22:23.360 much responsibility. This tiny being depends on me for everything. 0:22:24.160 --> 0:22:27.080 What if I fall short. I've never really thought of 0:22:27.080 --> 0:22:29.080 it that way, and the sort of need to be 0:22:29.160 --> 0:22:32.120 the you know, the good mother or the perfect mother. 0:22:32.800 --> 0:22:35.440 So I struggled with that a little bit, but then 0:22:36.000 --> 0:22:38.439 that went away. But I didn't really have anybody I 0:22:38.440 --> 0:22:40.880 could talk to you about it. And I wanted other 0:22:41.000 --> 0:22:44.439 mothers to say, oh, so this is normal. This is 0:22:44.520 --> 0:22:49.280 sort of a form of postpartum depression, and um, I'm 0:22:49.320 --> 0:22:59.000 not super weird having these scary thoughts, intrusive thoughts. During 0:22:59.000 --> 0:23:02.280 this time, Katie is living in a kind of dual landscape. 0:23:02.880 --> 0:23:05.080 On the one hand, she's more and more in the 0:23:05.119 --> 0:23:09.760 public eye. On the other hand, she's experiencing the vulnerability 0:23:09.840 --> 0:23:14.080 and newness of motherhood. And through the process of inhabiting 0:23:14.080 --> 0:23:17.520 these two very different spheres, she's getting to know herself 0:23:17.560 --> 0:23:21.760 in important ways. She enjoys, even embraces her new found fame. 0:23:22.760 --> 0:23:27.560 But nothing is ever entirely wonderful. It's complicated. We worship 0:23:27.600 --> 0:23:30.240 our celebrities in this culture, but we also don't see 0:23:30.240 --> 0:23:35.200 them as quite human somehow, and Katie, Katie is human. 0:23:35.960 --> 0:23:40.600 In fact, showing her humanness is her superpower. I think 0:23:40.920 --> 0:23:45.800 because the Today's show showcased sort of my whole personality 0:23:45.880 --> 0:23:50.840 and me and my sort of entirety, and it was working. 0:23:51.000 --> 0:23:53.160 I thought, oh, this is good. You know, I can 0:23:53.200 --> 0:23:57.280 do serious news, I can have fun I can be funny, 0:23:57.320 --> 0:24:00.119 I can be compassionate, I can sort of show, the 0:24:00.320 --> 0:24:02.920 multiple size of me. So I think in a way, 0:24:03.240 --> 0:24:07.040 because I was getting so much positive feedback, it bolstered 0:24:07.080 --> 0:24:12.280 my self confidence. And I think the only dichotomy between 0:24:12.320 --> 0:24:15.640 my public life because I was very much myself on TV, 0:24:15.840 --> 0:24:19.359 and I think that's what people responded to, was the 0:24:19.480 --> 0:24:25.359 strain of having someone sort of just explode like a 0:24:25.520 --> 0:24:29.680 rocket into the sky and everything that came with it, 0:24:29.920 --> 0:24:32.639 you know, being on the cover of magazines, you know, 0:24:32.880 --> 0:24:36.080 just that kind of weird stuff being written about and 0:24:36.080 --> 0:24:38.280 and and of course at the beginning, it was all 0:24:38.720 --> 0:24:44.439 very positive, you know, borderline fawning about me because I 0:24:44.520 --> 0:24:47.000 was sort of a little bit of a new breed 0:24:47.080 --> 0:24:51.560 of journalists on TV. I was normal looking, I was approachable, 0:24:51.600 --> 0:24:55.960 I was very girl next door. I wasn't particularly glamorous 0:24:56.119 --> 0:25:00.720 or unattainable. I was someone that people could really relate to. 0:25:01.680 --> 0:25:06.240 And I think probably the private side was some of 0:25:06.280 --> 0:25:10.520 the things that interfered with a normal life, and that is, 0:25:10.640 --> 0:25:13.720 you know, being recognized, which is fine at first, and 0:25:13.760 --> 0:25:19.040 then it just gets almost confusing, and it also creates, 0:25:19.080 --> 0:25:23.119 I think, this weird imbalance in a relationship. I was 0:25:23.160 --> 0:25:26.639 suddenly making so much money more than Jay and I 0:25:26.760 --> 0:25:30.520 ever envisioned either would be making and that I think 0:25:30.520 --> 0:25:34.560 can be quite destabilizing for a relationship. And back then, 0:25:34.640 --> 0:25:37.800 in the early nineties, Danny, a woman making more than 0:25:37.840 --> 0:25:40.560 her husband, believe it or not, was kind of an anomaly, 0:25:41.160 --> 0:25:45.040 not so much anymore, but back then, the expectation was 0:25:45.200 --> 0:25:49.480 that the man would always be the primary breadwinner, at least, 0:25:50.200 --> 0:25:53.560 you know, generally make more money than the woman. And 0:25:53.640 --> 0:25:57.120 so this was different. You know, both of us had 0:25:57.200 --> 0:26:00.439 mothers that didn't really work, and suddenly I him like 0:26:00.560 --> 0:26:05.159 bringing home the bacon and not so much the money, 0:26:05.200 --> 0:26:08.840 but also the attention that that created when we were 0:26:08.920 --> 0:26:13.040 out in the world. And the way people gravitate to 0:26:14.000 --> 0:26:17.760 quote unquote, you know, public figures or fame or whatever 0:26:17.800 --> 0:26:21.800 it is, hoping that that will kind of reflect back 0:26:21.840 --> 0:26:26.360