1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:06,000 Speaker 1: Family Secrets is a production of I Heart Radio. The pressure, 2 00:00:06,240 --> 00:00:10,280 Speaker 1: the dread were constant. Sometimes when the Today Show was over, 3 00:00:10,440 --> 00:00:13,080 Speaker 1: I'd collapse on the floor of the bathroom in my office, 4 00:00:13,600 --> 00:00:18,240 Speaker 1: Bomas cigarette from my hairdresser and sob ridiculous. I know 5 00:00:18,600 --> 00:00:21,720 Speaker 1: my husband has cancer and I'm smoking, but that's how 6 00:00:21,720 --> 00:00:25,760 Speaker 1: completely undone I was. I keep it together for the show, 7 00:00:26,680 --> 00:00:29,120 Speaker 1: the only two hours of my day when I wasn't 8 00:00:29,120 --> 00:00:34,159 Speaker 1: obsessing over j spate, and then at nine oh two am, 9 00:00:34,200 --> 00:00:39,839 Speaker 1: I'd fall apart. You're probably thinking that voice sounds familiar, 10 00:00:40,360 --> 00:00:45,360 Speaker 1: because that's Katie Couric, journalist, news anchor and most recently, 11 00:00:45,400 --> 00:00:48,000 Speaker 1: author of the number one New York Times bestselling memoir 12 00:00:48,440 --> 00:00:54,080 Speaker 1: Going There. Sometimes when someone is very well known, we think, well, 13 00:00:54,280 --> 00:00:57,120 Speaker 1: we think we know them. But if there's one thing 14 00:00:57,200 --> 00:00:59,760 Speaker 1: that hosting this show has taught me, it's that we 15 00:01:00,000 --> 00:01:03,680 Speaker 1: all have secret in our lives, every single one of us. 16 00:01:04,520 --> 00:01:08,760 Speaker 1: Katie's is a story of grit, resilience, and grace, even 17 00:01:08,840 --> 00:01:23,560 Speaker 1: while living under the microscope that is fame. I'm Danny Shapiro, 18 00:01:23,800 --> 00:01:26,880 Speaker 1: and this is family Secrets. The secrets that are kept 19 00:01:26,880 --> 00:01:29,319 Speaker 1: from us, the secrets we keep from others, and the 20 00:01:29,400 --> 00:01:39,440 Speaker 1: secrets we keep from ourselves. So described for me the 21 00:01:39,520 --> 00:01:45,000 Speaker 1: landscape of your childhood, Well, it's a very beautiful landscape. 22 00:01:45,040 --> 00:01:48,440 Speaker 1: And sometimes I feel guilty. As I've gotten older and 23 00:01:48,640 --> 00:01:53,240 Speaker 1: met more people, Danny, I realized that so many of 24 00:01:53,360 --> 00:01:57,280 Speaker 1: us don't have the kind of loving family I had. 25 00:01:58,000 --> 00:02:05,280 Speaker 1: I had really pretty typical in middle class nuclear family 26 00:02:05,920 --> 00:02:10,600 Speaker 1: raising kids in the fifties and sixties and early seventies. 27 00:02:11,360 --> 00:02:13,800 Speaker 1: My parents. My mom was a stay at home mom, 28 00:02:14,480 --> 00:02:18,639 Speaker 1: which I think resulted in some frustration for her. My 29 00:02:18,760 --> 00:02:23,120 Speaker 1: dad was a newspaperman who then went into public relations 30 00:02:23,160 --> 00:02:26,040 Speaker 1: because I think it was hard to support a family 31 00:02:26,080 --> 00:02:29,720 Speaker 1: of four as a single breadwinner as a print reporter. 32 00:02:30,680 --> 00:02:34,600 Speaker 1: And I'm the youngest of four, so that very much 33 00:02:34,639 --> 00:02:38,799 Speaker 1: informed the person I became. I was sort of the entertainer, 34 00:02:38,960 --> 00:02:41,880 Speaker 1: the cut up, you know, the one that would be 35 00:02:41,960 --> 00:02:46,239 Speaker 1: performing for my sisters, gentlemen callers. I was the one 36 00:02:46,520 --> 00:02:50,040 Speaker 1: cracking jokes at the dinner table. My mom would always 37 00:02:50,160 --> 00:02:53,120 Speaker 1: laugh and my father would say eleanor don't encourage her. 38 00:02:53,960 --> 00:02:59,760 Speaker 1: My parents were ambitious for us, but not helicopter parents. 39 00:03:00,480 --> 00:03:04,880 Speaker 1: They wanted us to do well. Education was really emphasized 40 00:03:04,880 --> 00:03:07,320 Speaker 1: in my family. It was very important for us to 41 00:03:07,360 --> 00:03:10,760 Speaker 1: go to a good college and do well academically. I 42 00:03:10,800 --> 00:03:13,560 Speaker 1: did less well than my siblings because I think as 43 00:03:13,600 --> 00:03:17,960 Speaker 1: the last kid, I sort of had more finely tuned 44 00:03:18,440 --> 00:03:23,520 Speaker 1: emotional intelligence and kind of could get away with being 45 00:03:23,600 --> 00:03:28,440 Speaker 1: charming and funny and sweet talking my teachers. It was 46 00:03:28,480 --> 00:03:34,760 Speaker 1: a really happy childhood. No big traumas grandparents died as 47 00:03:34,800 --> 00:03:39,520 Speaker 1: grandparents do. Um, some sickness and my parents, but much 48 00:03:39,600 --> 00:03:42,880 Speaker 1: later in life I would say, from the age of 49 00:03:43,000 --> 00:03:46,880 Speaker 1: zero to forty, I was very blessed. My husband Jay, 50 00:03:47,080 --> 00:03:48,880 Speaker 1: my late husband, used to say, I was born on 51 00:03:48,880 --> 00:03:52,600 Speaker 1: a sunny day and a lot of things really went 52 00:03:52,680 --> 00:03:56,560 Speaker 1: my way for the most part. I grew up in Arlington, Virginia, 53 00:03:56,560 --> 00:04:00,280 Speaker 1: in a suburb just outside Washington, d C. It was 54 00:04:00,400 --> 00:04:05,360 Speaker 1: teaming with kids riding their bikes, playing street baseball, Capture 55 00:04:05,400 --> 00:04:11,720 Speaker 1: the flag, crab apple fights. Um, you know, just very idyllic, 56 00:04:11,920 --> 00:04:14,560 Speaker 1: you know, playing red rover, red rover and red light 57 00:04:14,600 --> 00:04:19,839 Speaker 1: green light, catching lightning bugs at night. It almost sounds 58 00:04:19,839 --> 00:04:23,000 Speaker 1: like a Norman Rockwell painting as I talk of it now, 59 00:04:23,560 --> 00:04:27,920 Speaker 1: I've never heard of crab apple fights. Well, you know, 60 00:04:28,160 --> 00:04:31,000 Speaker 1: we had them little We just throw them at our neighbors, 61 00:04:31,040 --> 00:04:35,800 Speaker 1: and especially at the boys. As Katie grows up in 62 00:04:35,800 --> 00:04:39,440 Speaker 1: this idyllic atmosphere, she learns that sweet talking her teachers 63 00:04:39,440 --> 00:04:42,720 Speaker 1: will only get her so far academically. When she's a 64 00:04:42,800 --> 00:04:45,920 Speaker 1: junior in high school, she buckles down, commits to her 65 00:04:45,920 --> 00:04:49,480 Speaker 1: school work, and gets straight a's. It's an important year 66 00:04:49,520 --> 00:04:52,719 Speaker 1: for colleges, and she has her heart set on attending 67 00:04:52,720 --> 00:04:57,760 Speaker 1: Smith College in Northampton, Massachusetts. I got rejected, not even 68 00:04:57,800 --> 00:05:02,400 Speaker 1: weight listed, for crying out loud, and was particularly painful 69 00:05:02,480 --> 00:05:05,679 Speaker 1: because my sisters had both gone there. My sister Emily 70 00:05:05,839 --> 00:05:08,920 Speaker 1: was five Beta Kappa and Sigma Si, which was a 71 00:05:08,960 --> 00:05:12,680 Speaker 1: science honorary society that I had never heard of. My 72 00:05:12,760 --> 00:05:15,640 Speaker 1: sister Kiki also did really well there, went on to 73 00:05:15,760 --> 00:05:20,640 Speaker 1: Harvard Graduate School. She got her master's and landscape architect 74 00:05:20,440 --> 00:05:24,200 Speaker 1: at the Harvard School of Design. And um, Yeah, it 75 00:05:24,279 --> 00:05:28,760 Speaker 1: was really embarrassing and mortifying that I just got rejected, 76 00:05:29,600 --> 00:05:33,360 Speaker 1: full stop. When I looked back on it, Danny, there 77 00:05:33,400 --> 00:05:36,160 Speaker 1: were other moments when I was disappointed, but they sound 78 00:05:36,240 --> 00:05:40,719 Speaker 1: so silly in hindsight, you know. I remember, I think 79 00:05:40,760 --> 00:05:46,720 Speaker 1: it was in junior high and the cheerleading team. I 80 00:05:46,760 --> 00:05:50,440 Speaker 1: remember this so vividly, was time for the cheerly need 81 00:05:50,520 --> 00:05:54,240 Speaker 1: squad to pick the captain and co captain. And I 82 00:05:54,360 --> 00:05:57,080 Speaker 1: was one of the one of two girls who had 83 00:05:57,120 --> 00:06:00,000 Speaker 1: been accepted to be a cheerleader in eighth grade. Most 84 00:06:00,040 --> 00:06:04,119 Speaker 1: to them were ninth grade. I walked in and I heard, 85 00:06:04,160 --> 00:06:06,120 Speaker 1: you know, there was a lot of whispering, and of 86 00:06:06,160 --> 00:06:10,080 Speaker 1: course I wanted to be captain. Hello, And the gym teacher, 87 00:06:10,240 --> 00:06:14,559 Speaker 1: Mrs Beats, who was in charge of the cheerleader said 88 00:06:15,240 --> 00:06:18,760 Speaker 1: that she was going to pick the captain and co captain, 89 00:06:19,240 --> 00:06:23,200 Speaker 1: which really just was an affront to my democratic principles. 90 00:06:23,640 --> 00:06:26,800 Speaker 1: You know that the gym teacher is not supposed to 91 00:06:26,839 --> 00:06:32,000 Speaker 1: pick the captain and co captain. I was beside myself. 92 00:06:32,320 --> 00:06:36,440 Speaker 1: I was so upset. I came home. I was both 93 00:06:36,600 --> 00:06:42,719 Speaker 1: furious and just terribly upset, and I remember thinking, that 94 00:06:42,920 --> 00:06:46,720 Speaker 1: is so unfair, Like the teacher isn't allowed to do this. 95 00:06:46,720 --> 00:06:50,160 Speaker 1: This is a democratic process. The cheerleaders are supposed to 96 00:06:50,160 --> 00:06:53,360 Speaker 1: pick the captain and co captain. Isn't that funny? And 97 00:06:53,440 --> 00:06:57,200 Speaker 1: that was a big upsetting event in my life, but 98 00:06:57,360 --> 00:07:01,200 Speaker 1: in retrospect probably really important because you know what they 99 00:07:01,240 --> 00:07:04,200 Speaker 1: say about you have to learn how to deal with disappointment. 100 00:07:04,400 --> 00:07:06,600 Speaker 1: You have to learn that life is not fair. You 101 00:07:06,640 --> 00:07:10,360 Speaker 1: have to learn to say, Okay, well that happened. I've 102 00:07:10,360 --> 00:07:15,720 Speaker 1: got to move on, and I did, despite its sting. 103 00:07:16,120 --> 00:07:19,360 Speaker 1: Katie bounces back from the cheerleading incident and continues to 104 00:07:19,360 --> 00:07:23,040 Speaker 1: be involved at school in extracurriculars and keeping her head up. 105 00:07:23,600 --> 00:07:27,000 Speaker 1: She's popular and well liked, but when she receives that 106 00:07:27,000 --> 00:07:31,320 Speaker 1: thin envelope from Smith rejecting her, the news is catastrophic 107 00:07:31,360 --> 00:07:33,960 Speaker 1: for her and opens a fault line that she hadn't 108 00:07:34,040 --> 00:07:40,400 Speaker 1: known was there. She becomes bulimic. I was bulimick for 109 00:07:40,560 --> 00:07:44,280 Speaker 1: probably a total of on and off for maybe six 110 00:07:44,360 --> 00:07:48,520 Speaker 1: or seven years in my sort of late teens to 111 00:07:48,680 --> 00:07:52,760 Speaker 1: my mid to late twenties. But it was very sporadic. 112 00:07:52,880 --> 00:07:56,560 Speaker 1: Sometimes I would do it, you know, several times a week, 113 00:07:57,120 --> 00:08:00,640 Speaker 1: even a few times a day. Sometime I wouldn't do 114 00:08:00,720 --> 00:08:03,160 Speaker 1: it at all. So it was very off and on, 115 00:08:04,120 --> 00:08:07,679 Speaker 1: and I think, gosh, what was that about. I think 116 00:08:08,000 --> 00:08:13,880 Speaker 1: it was about not measuring up, about not meeting expectations, 117 00:08:14,680 --> 00:08:21,600 Speaker 1: about being less than not being perfect, um probably feeling 118 00:08:21,600 --> 00:08:25,440 Speaker 1: guilty that I hadn't applied myself more not following in 119 00:08:25,560 --> 00:08:29,320 Speaker 1: my sister's footsteps. I think that's what it was about, 120 00:08:29,600 --> 00:08:34,920 Speaker 1: and then punishing myself and being angry at myself for 121 00:08:35,320 --> 00:08:38,720 Speaker 1: all the things that I didn't do versus being happy 122 00:08:38,760 --> 00:08:42,319 Speaker 1: about everything I did to right now, that makes a 123 00:08:42,400 --> 00:08:45,000 Speaker 1: lot of sense, and you know so much about attempting 124 00:08:45,040 --> 00:08:50,199 Speaker 1: to control the universe and oneself. I think I also had, 125 00:08:50,360 --> 00:08:54,360 Speaker 1: you know, really bad body image. You know, I was 126 00:08:54,400 --> 00:08:58,480 Speaker 1: a very scrawny, skinny kid. I remember like I weighed 127 00:08:58,520 --> 00:09:01,320 Speaker 1: forty five pounds when I was in fourth grade. You know, 128 00:09:01,360 --> 00:09:06,600 Speaker 1: It's little and wiry, very athletic. And then I really 129 00:09:06,720 --> 00:09:09,920 Speaker 1: hated going through puberty. You know, I've been a really 130 00:09:09,960 --> 00:09:12,400 Speaker 1: fast runner in elementary school. They used to pull me 131 00:09:12,440 --> 00:09:15,160 Speaker 1: out of fourth grade to run against the sixth grade boys, 132 00:09:15,200 --> 00:09:18,160 Speaker 1: and I was so proud of that. When I reached puberty, 133 00:09:18,280 --> 00:09:21,000 Speaker 1: I felt like my body was betrayed me in a way. 134 00:09:21,120 --> 00:09:26,320 Speaker 1: I wasn't as fast. I was more curvy, which I 135 00:09:26,360 --> 00:09:31,240 Speaker 1: didn't like. I didn't really love, you know, having breasts. 136 00:09:31,520 --> 00:09:34,400 Speaker 1: And I grew up in a family where diet culture 137 00:09:34,600 --> 00:09:37,800 Speaker 1: was really strong, where my sisters were always on a 138 00:09:37,840 --> 00:09:39,760 Speaker 1: diet and my mom was always on a diet, and 139 00:09:39,800 --> 00:09:43,760 Speaker 1: there was always tab and fresca and cottage cheese around 140 00:09:44,280 --> 00:09:48,520 Speaker 1: was really during that era, And so I think that 141 00:09:48,960 --> 00:09:53,000 Speaker 1: because I wasn't super thin or tall and willowy, I 142 00:09:53,120 --> 00:09:58,600 Speaker 1: also felt very bad about myself and my appearance. You know, 143 00:09:58,640 --> 00:10:01,320 Speaker 1: I was a little more true. I was kind of 144 00:10:01,320 --> 00:10:05,800 Speaker 1: your classic mes amorph no muscular, but not super thin 145 00:10:05,920 --> 00:10:08,600 Speaker 1: and not tall. I was probably five two or three. 146 00:10:08,640 --> 00:10:12,760 Speaker 1: I'm now barely five four. So I think I was 147 00:10:12,800 --> 00:10:17,680 Speaker 1: also responding to this cultural pressure and societal pressure to 148 00:10:17,800 --> 00:10:20,600 Speaker 1: look a certain way, you know, to look like Twiggy 149 00:10:20,720 --> 00:10:23,360 Speaker 1: or look like the models in seventeen magazine, which I 150 00:10:23,400 --> 00:10:26,320 Speaker 1: did not. Did anybody know that you were going through 151 00:10:26,360 --> 00:10:31,480 Speaker 1: this during those years? Not really. My mom certainly didn't. 152 00:10:31,960 --> 00:10:35,240 Speaker 1: She would have been just so upset, you know, because 153 00:10:35,280 --> 00:10:40,200 Speaker 1: it's so phys physically damaging. I remember mentioning it to 154 00:10:40,240 --> 00:10:43,960 Speaker 1: my sister, my oldest sister, at one point, and her 155 00:10:44,080 --> 00:10:47,400 Speaker 1: confiding to me that she had at times been blimic, 156 00:10:47,800 --> 00:10:51,559 Speaker 1: which I thought was super interesting that, you know, there 157 00:10:51,600 --> 00:10:57,000 Speaker 1: they think there might be some genetic predisposition to eating 158 00:10:57,040 --> 00:11:01,760 Speaker 1: disorders that are then exacerbated by iron Man. But no, 159 00:11:01,960 --> 00:11:05,280 Speaker 1: it was pretty secretive a very small group of people. 160 00:11:05,320 --> 00:11:08,319 Speaker 1: If anyone knew about it, it was shrouded in shame 161 00:11:08,400 --> 00:11:14,920 Speaker 1: and secrecy and self loathing. Where their secrecy their shame, 162 00:11:15,800 --> 00:11:21,640 Speaker 1: Where their secrecy, there's silence. This toxic trio. Secrecy, shame, 163 00:11:21,960 --> 00:11:26,280 Speaker 1: silence form a vicious cycle, one that is very hard 164 00:11:26,320 --> 00:11:29,760 Speaker 1: to break. Of course, Katie doesn't want to talk about it, 165 00:11:30,240 --> 00:11:33,600 Speaker 1: and when one roommate confronts her about her bolimia, she 166 00:11:33,760 --> 00:11:37,480 Speaker 1: quickly moves out. But then she is shaken to the 167 00:11:37,520 --> 00:11:41,040 Speaker 1: core by the tragic death of Karen Carpenter, a singer 168 00:11:41,080 --> 00:11:44,640 Speaker 1: songwriter beloved by a whole generation who died as a 169 00:11:44,679 --> 00:11:47,480 Speaker 1: result of her anorexia at the age of thirty two. 170 00:11:49,320 --> 00:11:51,920 Speaker 1: I mean, I think it was a whole confluence of things. 171 00:11:52,160 --> 00:11:58,360 Speaker 1: I think that that was very shocking when Karen Carpenter died. 172 00:11:58,480 --> 00:12:00,920 Speaker 1: You know, that was sort of the music my middle 173 00:12:00,960 --> 00:12:05,640 Speaker 1: school years. And I think the fact that this could 174 00:12:05,640 --> 00:12:10,920 Speaker 1: actually kill you, I mean, she was antarextic versus bliemic um, 175 00:12:10,960 --> 00:12:13,920 Speaker 1: and maybe she was both. I was just believe it. 176 00:12:14,000 --> 00:12:17,960 Speaker 1: But it really was crushing when Karen Carpenter died, and 177 00:12:18,000 --> 00:12:21,960 Speaker 1: I thought, holy smokes, you can actually die from doing this. 178 00:12:22,800 --> 00:12:26,200 Speaker 1: And I think it just kind of shook me to 179 00:12:26,320 --> 00:12:29,040 Speaker 1: my core. And I thought I'm not gonna do this anymore. 180 00:12:29,840 --> 00:12:32,800 Speaker 1: I never wanted to do it. Like you, It's almost 181 00:12:32,840 --> 00:12:36,760 Speaker 1: like you're so restricted in your diet then you do 182 00:12:37,000 --> 00:12:40,600 Speaker 1: something that's quote unquote bad. You know, it's really weird 183 00:12:40,640 --> 00:12:44,760 Speaker 1: how we ascribe moral judgments to food. You know, I 184 00:12:44,840 --> 00:12:48,360 Speaker 1: was really bad today. I was really good today. And 185 00:12:48,679 --> 00:12:53,480 Speaker 1: I think once I would set up these impossible you know, 186 00:12:53,520 --> 00:12:55,679 Speaker 1: I'm only going to eat an apple and a coffee 187 00:12:55,720 --> 00:12:58,880 Speaker 1: yogurt today, you know, and I'm going to try to 188 00:12:59,480 --> 00:13:02,640 Speaker 1: jump hope and one of those suits that makes you sweat. 189 00:13:03,280 --> 00:13:05,280 Speaker 1: Then if I ate almost I got to the point 190 00:13:05,320 --> 00:13:07,720 Speaker 1: where I had a piece of gum that wasn't sugarless. 191 00:13:08,080 --> 00:13:10,880 Speaker 1: I'd say, I blew it. I blew it. I'm a 192 00:13:10,960 --> 00:13:14,920 Speaker 1: terrible person. Well, I'm gonna have to start tomorrow. I'm 193 00:13:14,960 --> 00:13:17,319 Speaker 1: going to eat everything I can, and then I'd feel 194 00:13:17,320 --> 00:13:19,240 Speaker 1: guilty and then I throw it up. I mean, it 195 00:13:19,320 --> 00:13:22,520 Speaker 1: was just that kind of cycle. And that cycle is 196 00:13:22,559 --> 00:13:25,560 Speaker 1: happening during a period of time where you go to 197 00:13:25,640 --> 00:13:29,880 Speaker 1: college and you start your career. It's like it's during 198 00:13:29,920 --> 00:13:33,240 Speaker 1: a period of time where in the outside world you're 199 00:13:33,280 --> 00:13:37,360 Speaker 1: beginning to you know, find your footing and succeed and 200 00:13:37,920 --> 00:13:40,160 Speaker 1: I think it's true of so many people, I mean 201 00:13:40,200 --> 00:13:43,040 Speaker 1: maybe all people in some way, that there's this kind 202 00:13:43,040 --> 00:13:46,000 Speaker 1: of at times in our lives, this kind of shadow 203 00:13:46,080 --> 00:13:49,120 Speaker 1: life that's going on, that is the other side of 204 00:13:49,160 --> 00:13:53,360 Speaker 1: what people see. Appearances can be deceiving. Yeah, I mean 205 00:13:53,800 --> 00:13:55,920 Speaker 1: it was an exciting time for me, but I was 206 00:13:56,080 --> 00:13:59,240 Speaker 1: it was always this kind of little thing on my shoulder. 207 00:13:59,640 --> 00:14:03,840 Speaker 1: Oh what are you going to eat today? Oh, you 208 00:14:03,960 --> 00:14:07,680 Speaker 1: had two cups of instant hot chocolate when you were 209 00:14:07,720 --> 00:14:11,839 Speaker 1: at ABC News, when you were working the overnights. You're 210 00:14:12,040 --> 00:14:16,680 Speaker 1: terrible person. But it's terrible, Like why why do we 211 00:14:16,800 --> 00:14:20,360 Speaker 1: do this to ourselves? I just don't know. How can 212 00:14:20,400 --> 00:14:25,680 Speaker 1: we have a healthier relationship with food? Because I enjoy food, 213 00:14:25,760 --> 00:14:28,880 Speaker 1: you know, I enjoy eating. I love trying new restaurants, 214 00:14:28,920 --> 00:14:32,480 Speaker 1: and I like the social aspect of eating. But it's 215 00:14:32,560 --> 00:14:39,440 Speaker 1: never it's always accompanied by guilt or shame or the 216 00:14:39,880 --> 00:14:43,800 Speaker 1: judgment that I have no discipline or I shouldn't have 217 00:14:43,840 --> 00:14:49,760 Speaker 1: eaten that. Throughout this period of time, Katie's dating. She's 218 00:14:49,760 --> 00:14:52,360 Speaker 1: a young journalist on the rise, and though her career 219 00:14:52,400 --> 00:14:54,880 Speaker 1: has come first, she reaches a point at which she 220 00:14:54,920 --> 00:14:59,400 Speaker 1: wants to find a partner a real partner. I had 221 00:14:59,440 --> 00:15:02,520 Speaker 1: dated a out in my twenties, all sorts of different people, 222 00:15:02,560 --> 00:15:05,880 Speaker 1: but I had never gotten serious because I knew that 223 00:15:06,200 --> 00:15:09,240 Speaker 1: my job required me to move to different markets, and 224 00:15:09,360 --> 00:15:12,000 Speaker 1: I never wanted to put down roots, say in Miami, 225 00:15:12,160 --> 00:15:15,000 Speaker 1: where I dated a policeman, which was kind of a 226 00:15:15,040 --> 00:15:18,560 Speaker 1: fun different experience for me, one that my mom did 227 00:15:18,600 --> 00:15:21,800 Speaker 1: not approve of at all, to you know, going out 228 00:15:21,840 --> 00:15:25,160 Speaker 1: in Atlanta with the TV director and then an artist 229 00:15:25,760 --> 00:15:28,920 Speaker 1: who lived in the apartment below me. But I felt 230 00:15:29,560 --> 00:15:32,480 Speaker 1: like I wanted to find a partner, and so I'm 231 00:15:32,560 --> 00:15:35,400 Speaker 1: very intentional about most things in my life. When I 232 00:15:35,440 --> 00:15:37,600 Speaker 1: want something, I figure out how I'm going to get it. 233 00:15:38,400 --> 00:15:41,880 Speaker 1: And I was invited to a party and it was 234 00:15:42,000 --> 00:15:45,840 Speaker 1: full of like young twenty very young girls in their 235 00:15:45,880 --> 00:15:49,240 Speaker 1: early twenties, some even college dudents. Because I figured I 236 00:15:49,400 --> 00:15:54,120 Speaker 1: was going to meet some interesting people, especially some young professionals, 237 00:15:54,840 --> 00:16:00,200 Speaker 1: and I remember meeting Jay. We started talking and I 238 00:16:00,240 --> 00:16:03,720 Speaker 1: was immediately attracted to him. We just sort of started 239 00:16:03,760 --> 00:16:06,840 Speaker 1: this kind of fun conversation. I said I was the 240 00:16:06,840 --> 00:16:09,880 Speaker 1: oldest person at the party. He said, I doubt it. 241 00:16:09,920 --> 00:16:13,040 Speaker 1: And we showed each other our driver's license, and indeed 242 00:16:13,080 --> 00:16:15,280 Speaker 1: He was a year older than I, but we were 243 00:16:15,320 --> 00:16:18,200 Speaker 1: born two days apart. I was January seven, he was 244 00:16:18,280 --> 00:16:22,280 Speaker 1: January nine. Anyway, I just found him fun and funny 245 00:16:22,320 --> 00:16:26,160 Speaker 1: and intriguing and nice, and um, I asked him out 246 00:16:26,200 --> 00:16:28,280 Speaker 1: on our first date. I had his business card. I 247 00:16:28,360 --> 00:16:31,000 Speaker 1: called him. He hadn't called me for a few days, 248 00:16:31,040 --> 00:16:32,840 Speaker 1: and I said, I thought you were going to call me, 249 00:16:32,880 --> 00:16:35,240 Speaker 1: and he said, well, apparently I didn't have to. And 250 00:16:35,280 --> 00:16:37,680 Speaker 1: I thought, oh, what a cocky son of a bitch. Okay, 251 00:16:38,080 --> 00:16:40,880 Speaker 1: So we ended up having dinner at a Thai restaurant, 252 00:16:40,920 --> 00:16:44,080 Speaker 1: and you know, he was sort of I told him 253 00:16:44,120 --> 00:16:47,280 Speaker 1: pretty early on in our relationship he was everything I 254 00:16:47,320 --> 00:16:50,920 Speaker 1: was looking for in a partner. He was very smart, 255 00:16:51,600 --> 00:16:54,840 Speaker 1: He was dedicated and devoted to his family. He was 256 00:16:54,920 --> 00:16:58,080 Speaker 1: one of seven kids. He was kind of the go 257 00:16:58,200 --> 00:17:01,560 Speaker 1: to and his family. He was, you know, problem solver. 258 00:17:01,800 --> 00:17:05,080 Speaker 1: He was funny, he was charming. He had this kind 259 00:17:05,119 --> 00:17:08,720 Speaker 1: of old world elegance about him. He lived in a 260 00:17:08,760 --> 00:17:14,320 Speaker 1: basement apartment in Georgetown, but somehow it was just beautifully decorated. 261 00:17:14,359 --> 00:17:17,400 Speaker 1: You know, he had nice antiques and he just had 262 00:17:17,400 --> 00:17:21,120 Speaker 1: a real sense of style and very good taste, and 263 00:17:21,480 --> 00:17:24,119 Speaker 1: that appealed to me a lot. But of course the 264 00:17:24,200 --> 00:17:29,439 Speaker 1: most appealing thing was he was just really a kind person, 265 00:17:29,600 --> 00:17:35,159 Speaker 1: fun to be around, intellectually stimulating. We talked about leon 266 00:17:35,320 --> 00:17:37,840 Speaker 1: Uris's Trinity and he gave me sort of the history 267 00:17:37,840 --> 00:17:41,600 Speaker 1: of Northern Ireland over lunch, and I was thinking, oh wow, 268 00:17:41,640 --> 00:17:45,800 Speaker 1: this is this guy is intense and serious. I really 269 00:17:45,840 --> 00:17:49,359 Speaker 1: fell head over heels for him, and you know, he 270 00:17:49,560 --> 00:17:54,480 Speaker 1: was on the partner track at his law firm. Not 271 00:17:54,600 --> 00:17:57,640 Speaker 1: long after that seminal time meal, Katie and Jay get 272 00:17:57,680 --> 00:18:00,840 Speaker 1: together and get married. As Jay is advancing in his 273 00:18:00,920 --> 00:18:03,520 Speaker 1: law career, Katie is doing the same in her career 274 00:18:03,560 --> 00:18:07,200 Speaker 1: as a television journalist. She's dedicated to her work, she's 275 00:18:07,240 --> 00:18:10,359 Speaker 1: good at it, and she's solidifying her goals for the future. 276 00:18:12,040 --> 00:18:17,840 Speaker 1: I definitely saw myself as sort of the quintessential a 277 00:18:17,960 --> 00:18:20,719 Speaker 1: woman who wanted to quote unquote have it all, but 278 00:18:20,840 --> 00:18:24,399 Speaker 1: who wanted to, you know, have a fulfilling career. I 279 00:18:24,440 --> 00:18:27,679 Speaker 1: think because my mom didn't, and I think my goal 280 00:18:28,200 --> 00:18:30,440 Speaker 1: when I was a local news reporter in Miami, I 281 00:18:30,520 --> 00:18:32,720 Speaker 1: used to say, I want to be a network correspondent 282 00:18:32,800 --> 00:18:35,879 Speaker 1: by the time I'm thirty, and so I had a 283 00:18:35,960 --> 00:18:40,359 Speaker 1: very concrete goal that was my aspiration. So I saw 284 00:18:40,560 --> 00:18:43,720 Speaker 1: us as a two career couple. Maybe I'd be a 285 00:18:43,800 --> 00:18:48,240 Speaker 1: national correspondent working at NBC in Washington or one of 286 00:18:48,240 --> 00:18:52,000 Speaker 1: the networks, or covering Capitol Hill or the White House. 287 00:18:52,520 --> 00:18:55,160 Speaker 1: I just thought that I would be doing something that 288 00:18:55,240 --> 00:19:00,359 Speaker 1: was exciting and interesting and lucrative professionally. You know, my dad. 289 00:19:00,800 --> 00:19:04,560 Speaker 1: I remember I could have gone into radio, and I 290 00:19:04,640 --> 00:19:07,080 Speaker 1: actually tried to get a job at the Washington Post. 291 00:19:07,480 --> 00:19:10,879 Speaker 1: But then I started thinking, well, why not do television. 292 00:19:10,920 --> 00:19:14,080 Speaker 1: You make a lot more money, and you know, if 293 00:19:14,080 --> 00:19:16,280 Speaker 1: my face didn't stop the clock, maybe I could give 294 00:19:16,320 --> 00:19:18,840 Speaker 1: it a try. Yeah, you've got this great line in 295 00:19:18,880 --> 00:19:22,240 Speaker 1: your book, which is I smile big. I smile a lot. 296 00:19:22,440 --> 00:19:26,879 Speaker 1: Even my resting bitch face is a smile. Yeah that's true. 297 00:19:26,920 --> 00:19:31,320 Speaker 1: So it's true. I feel so unnatural and looks so 298 00:19:31,359 --> 00:19:45,359 Speaker 1: weird when I'm not smiling. We'll be right back. So 299 00:19:45,480 --> 00:19:48,320 Speaker 1: life is good for this young married couple, both building 300 00:19:48,320 --> 00:19:51,840 Speaker 1: their lives together and then quite literally building a life together. 301 00:19:52,480 --> 00:19:57,280 Speaker 1: They have their first child, a daughter, Ellie. I've just 302 00:19:57,320 --> 00:20:00,960 Speaker 1: gotten my job on the Today Show and I was 303 00:20:01,440 --> 00:20:04,640 Speaker 1: I think five months pregnant on my first day at 304 00:20:04,640 --> 00:20:08,119 Speaker 1: the Today's Show. So that's where I was when Ellie 305 00:20:08,160 --> 00:20:10,199 Speaker 1: was born, and it was you know, it was a 306 00:20:10,200 --> 00:20:15,080 Speaker 1: wonderful time because nobody likes a baby like the morning 307 00:20:15,080 --> 00:20:20,159 Speaker 1: show audience, right where everyone feels infested in your pregnancy 308 00:20:20,200 --> 00:20:23,040 Speaker 1: and excited and it's you know, it's a big milestone, 309 00:20:23,080 --> 00:20:25,199 Speaker 1: not only for you and your family, but in a 310 00:20:25,280 --> 00:20:28,560 Speaker 1: weird way for the audience, you know, where everything is 311 00:20:28,640 --> 00:20:31,520 Speaker 1: kind of a shared experience on morning television with all 312 00:20:31,560 --> 00:20:36,200 Speaker 1: these sort of para social relationships that are formed between 313 00:20:36,280 --> 00:20:40,520 Speaker 1: viewers and and the people who are on television, even 314 00:20:40,560 --> 00:20:43,240 Speaker 1: more so now because I never really talked about my 315 00:20:43,359 --> 00:20:46,639 Speaker 1: kids when I was on the Today Show. I tried 316 00:20:46,720 --> 00:20:50,080 Speaker 1: only at times when it seemed more natural, like showing 317 00:20:50,080 --> 00:20:52,639 Speaker 1: a photo of Carrie or Ellie when they were born, 318 00:20:52,840 --> 00:20:56,199 Speaker 1: or having them come in occasionally if Britney Spears was 319 00:20:56,280 --> 00:21:00,040 Speaker 1: performing or something like that. But um, this idea of 320 00:21:00,080 --> 00:21:03,680 Speaker 1: really really putting your kids out front was just not 321 00:21:03,800 --> 00:21:06,800 Speaker 1: done back then as much as it is now because 322 00:21:06,840 --> 00:21:10,639 Speaker 1: of social media and because you know, we live in 323 00:21:10,680 --> 00:21:15,400 Speaker 1: an oversharing culture, right. So anyway, it was a very 324 00:21:15,480 --> 00:21:21,240 Speaker 1: exciting time and everyone sort of celebrated Ellie's birth. It 325 00:21:21,359 --> 00:21:24,280 Speaker 1: was it was wonderful, But I went through a period 326 00:21:24,320 --> 00:21:27,119 Speaker 1: of time and I wanted to talk about this Danny, 327 00:21:27,200 --> 00:21:31,359 Speaker 1: because again, I think this is something people are ashamed 328 00:21:31,400 --> 00:21:33,920 Speaker 1: of and don't want to admit. I was really afraid 329 00:21:34,080 --> 00:21:37,439 Speaker 1: of hurting Ellie. I was afraid of dropping her, but 330 00:21:37,560 --> 00:21:40,520 Speaker 1: also kind of the feeling that you get some people 331 00:21:40,560 --> 00:21:44,000 Speaker 1: get when they're on a tall balcony and they think, oh, 332 00:21:44,040 --> 00:21:48,960 Speaker 1: I could just crawl over this railing and jump and 333 00:21:49,080 --> 00:21:52,080 Speaker 1: end it all, and you're not going to do it, 334 00:21:52,480 --> 00:21:56,600 Speaker 1: but you're scared that you could. I think some of 335 00:21:56,640 --> 00:21:59,280 Speaker 1: your listeners will think I'm out of my mind, and 336 00:21:59,359 --> 00:22:03,200 Speaker 1: others will say, I know exactly what you mean. And 337 00:22:03,720 --> 00:22:07,240 Speaker 1: so I think that translated into what if I like 338 00:22:07,680 --> 00:22:10,760 Speaker 1: Leevelly or I think it's this hyper vigilance you feel 339 00:22:10,840 --> 00:22:14,320 Speaker 1: as a parent. It's almost a primitive thing as a mother, 340 00:22:14,560 --> 00:22:17,720 Speaker 1: and it's almost like, gosh, you know, I have so 341 00:22:17,800 --> 00:22:23,360 Speaker 1: much responsibility. This tiny being depends on me for everything. 342 00:22:24,160 --> 00:22:27,080 Speaker 1: What if I fall short. I've never really thought of 343 00:22:27,080 --> 00:22:29,080 Speaker 1: it that way, and the sort of need to be 344 00:22:29,160 --> 00:22:32,120 Speaker 1: the you know, the good mother or the perfect mother. 345 00:22:32,800 --> 00:22:35,440 Speaker 1: So I struggled with that a little bit, but then 346 00:22:36,000 --> 00:22:38,439 Speaker 1: that went away. But I didn't really have anybody I 347 00:22:38,440 --> 00:22:40,880 Speaker 1: could talk to you about it. And I wanted other 348 00:22:41,000 --> 00:22:44,439 Speaker 1: mothers to say, oh, so this is normal. This is 349 00:22:44,520 --> 00:22:49,280 Speaker 1: sort of a form of postpartum depression, and um, I'm 350 00:22:49,320 --> 00:22:59,000 Speaker 1: not super weird having these scary thoughts, intrusive thoughts. During 351 00:22:59,000 --> 00:23:02,280 Speaker 1: this time, Katie is living in a kind of dual landscape. 352 00:23:02,880 --> 00:23:05,080 Speaker 1: On the one hand, she's more and more in the 353 00:23:05,119 --> 00:23:09,760 Speaker 1: public eye. On the other hand, she's experiencing the vulnerability 354 00:23:09,840 --> 00:23:14,080 Speaker 1: and newness of motherhood. And through the process of inhabiting 355 00:23:14,080 --> 00:23:17,520 Speaker 1: these two very different spheres, she's getting to know herself 356 00:23:17,560 --> 00:23:21,760 Speaker 1: in important ways. She enjoys, even embraces her new found fame. 357 00:23:22,760 --> 00:23:27,560 Speaker 1: But nothing is ever entirely wonderful. It's complicated. We worship 358 00:23:27,600 --> 00:23:30,240 Speaker 1: our celebrities in this culture, but we also don't see 359 00:23:30,240 --> 00:23:35,200 Speaker 1: them as quite human somehow, and Katie, Katie is human. 360 00:23:35,960 --> 00:23:40,600 Speaker 1: In fact, showing her humanness is her superpower. I think 361 00:23:40,920 --> 00:23:45,800 Speaker 1: because the Today's show showcased sort of my whole personality 362 00:23:45,880 --> 00:23:50,840 Speaker 1: and me and my sort of entirety, and it was working. 363 00:23:51,000 --> 00:23:53,160 Speaker 1: I thought, oh, this is good. You know, I can 364 00:23:53,200 --> 00:23:57,280 Speaker 1: do serious news, I can have fun I can be funny, 365 00:23:57,320 --> 00:24:00,119 Speaker 1: I can be compassionate, I can sort of show, the 366 00:24:00,320 --> 00:24:02,920 Speaker 1: multiple size of me. So I think in a way, 367 00:24:03,240 --> 00:24:07,040 Speaker 1: because I was getting so much positive feedback, it bolstered 368 00:24:07,080 --> 00:24:12,280 Speaker 1: my self confidence. And I think the only dichotomy between 369 00:24:12,320 --> 00:24:15,640 Speaker 1: my public life because I was very much myself on TV, 370 00:24:15,840 --> 00:24:19,359 Speaker 1: and I think that's what people responded to, was the 371 00:24:19,480 --> 00:24:25,359 Speaker 1: strain of having someone sort of just explode like a 372 00:24:25,520 --> 00:24:29,680 Speaker 1: rocket into the sky and everything that came with it, 373 00:24:29,920 --> 00:24:32,639 Speaker 1: you know, being on the cover of magazines, you know, 374 00:24:32,880 --> 00:24:36,080 Speaker 1: just that kind of weird stuff being written about and 375 00:24:36,080 --> 00:24:38,280 Speaker 1: and and of course at the beginning, it was all 376 00:24:38,720 --> 00:24:44,439 Speaker 1: very positive, you know, borderline fawning about me because I 377 00:24:44,520 --> 00:24:47,000 Speaker 1: was sort of a little bit of a new breed 378 00:24:47,080 --> 00:24:51,560 Speaker 1: of journalists on TV. I was normal looking, I was approachable, 379 00:24:51,600 --> 00:24:55,960 Speaker 1: I was very girl next door. I wasn't particularly glamorous 380 00:24:56,119 --> 00:25:00,720 Speaker 1: or unattainable. I was someone that people could really relate to. 381 00:25:01,680 --> 00:25:06,240 Speaker 1: And I think probably the private side was some of 382 00:25:06,280 --> 00:25:10,520 Speaker 1: the things that interfered with a normal life, and that is, 383 00:25:10,640 --> 00:25:13,720 Speaker 1: you know, being recognized, which is fine at first, and 384 00:25:13,760 --> 00:25:19,040 Speaker 1: then it just gets almost confusing, and it also creates, 385 00:25:19,080 --> 00:25:23,119 Speaker 1: I think, this weird imbalance in a relationship. I was 386 00:25:23,160 --> 00:25:26,639 Speaker 1: suddenly making so much money more than Jay and I 387 00:25:26,760 --> 00:25:30,520 Speaker 1: ever envisioned either would be making and that I think 388 00:25:30,520 --> 00:25:34,560 Speaker 1: can be quite destabilizing for a relationship. And back then, 389 00:25:34,640 --> 00:25:37,800 Speaker 1: in the early nineties, Danny, a woman making more than 390 00:25:37,840 --> 00:25:40,560 Speaker 1: her husband, believe it or not, was kind of an anomaly, 391 00:25:41,160 --> 00:25:45,040 Speaker 1: not so much anymore, but back then, the expectation was 392 00:25:45,200 --> 00:25:49,480 Speaker 1: that the man would always be the primary breadwinner, at least, 393 00:25:50,200 --> 00:25:53,560 Speaker 1: you know, generally make more money than the woman. And 394 00:25:53,640 --> 00:25:57,120 Speaker 1: so this was different. You know, both of us had 395 00:25:57,200 --> 00:26:00,439 Speaker 1: mothers that didn't really work, and suddenly I him like 396 00:26:00,560 --> 00:26:05,159 Speaker 1: bringing home the bacon and not so much the money, 397 00:26:05,200 --> 00:26:08,840 Speaker 1: but also the attention that that created when we were 398 00:26:08,920 --> 00:26:13,040 Speaker 1: out in the world. And the way people gravitate to 399 00:26:14,000 --> 00:26:17,760 Speaker 1: quote unquote, you know, public figures or fame or whatever 400 00:26:17,800 --> 00:26:21,800 Speaker 1: it is, hoping that that will kind of reflect back 401 00:26:21,840 --> 00:26:26,360 Speaker 1: at them. But the way well known people are treated 402 00:26:26,560 --> 00:26:30,520 Speaker 1: versus people who aren't necessarily in the public eye is 403 00:26:30,600 --> 00:26:35,920 Speaker 1: pretty extraordinary and pretty fucked up. So you would be, 404 00:26:36,040 --> 00:26:39,240 Speaker 1: for example, you know, at a party or at a reception, 405 00:26:39,520 --> 00:26:42,560 Speaker 1: and what would happen if the two of you were 406 00:26:42,560 --> 00:26:46,000 Speaker 1: out as a couple together. Well, I think too often 407 00:26:46,200 --> 00:26:50,360 Speaker 1: people would kind of ignore Jay. He was far more 408 00:26:50,440 --> 00:26:54,200 Speaker 1: intelligent and interesting, far more interesting than I, but they 409 00:26:54,200 --> 00:26:58,040 Speaker 1: would sort of give him a cursory hello, and then 410 00:26:58,640 --> 00:27:03,400 Speaker 1: they would turn back to me. And I think, by 411 00:27:03,440 --> 00:27:06,240 Speaker 1: the way wives of famous men probably feel this all 412 00:27:06,240 --> 00:27:11,639 Speaker 1: the time. People feel very diminished and it's gross the 413 00:27:11,680 --> 00:27:15,800 Speaker 1: way people react. But fame is a very strange thing, 414 00:27:16,160 --> 00:27:20,440 Speaker 1: and I think it makes people that crazy sometimes and 415 00:27:20,720 --> 00:27:26,480 Speaker 1: forget their manners. And then of course I would spend 416 00:27:26,520 --> 00:27:32,680 Speaker 1: my time worried that people were being attentive to Jay, 417 00:27:32,840 --> 00:27:37,359 Speaker 1: and then that would affect my level of enjoyment wherever 418 00:27:37,480 --> 00:27:40,800 Speaker 1: we were. It just made it hard. It's just one 419 00:27:40,840 --> 00:27:43,520 Speaker 1: of those things that couples have to grapple with both 420 00:27:43,560 --> 00:27:47,480 Speaker 1: that there's a big financial gap. You know, Jay was 421 00:27:47,520 --> 00:27:51,760 Speaker 1: doing well, but I was just making like silly money. 422 00:27:51,840 --> 00:27:54,199 Speaker 1: And I remember wanting to have a career because I 423 00:27:54,400 --> 00:27:58,199 Speaker 1: never wanted to be dependent on anyone else because the 424 00:27:58,240 --> 00:28:02,399 Speaker 1: power dynamic automatically changes, you know. I wanted an equal 425 00:28:02,480 --> 00:28:05,119 Speaker 1: voice in my marriage. I wanted to be able to 426 00:28:06,080 --> 00:28:08,919 Speaker 1: not be afraid. I didn't want to fear like someone 427 00:28:09,040 --> 00:28:12,560 Speaker 1: leaving me and being left high and dry. There's a 428 00:28:12,680 --> 00:28:15,800 Speaker 1: very good book called The Feminist Mistake by Leslie Bennett's 429 00:28:15,840 --> 00:28:19,040 Speaker 1: that had a big impact on me and and the 430 00:28:19,080 --> 00:28:23,040 Speaker 1: importance I think of women to be financially independent. So 431 00:28:23,200 --> 00:28:26,640 Speaker 1: it created some challenges in our marriage, and I think 432 00:28:26,640 --> 00:28:30,080 Speaker 1: it made Jay feel less then, which is the last 433 00:28:30,080 --> 00:28:32,320 Speaker 1: thing in the world I would ever want him to feel. 434 00:28:36,000 --> 00:28:38,520 Speaker 1: We'll be back in a moment with more family secrets. 435 00:28:44,360 --> 00:28:46,960 Speaker 1: Katie and Jay do their best to maintain the balance 436 00:28:47,000 --> 00:28:51,200 Speaker 1: in their relationship and family. They have another daughter. Katie's 437 00:28:51,200 --> 00:28:56,240 Speaker 1: career is skyrocketing. Then Jay becomes ill. He has cancer, 438 00:28:56,720 --> 00:29:01,640 Speaker 1: and the prognosis is grim. It becomes achingly clear that 439 00:29:01,680 --> 00:29:05,480 Speaker 1: no matter how much Katie researches Jay's cancer and identifies 440 00:29:05,560 --> 00:29:09,880 Speaker 1: experts and experimental treatments, he isn't going to survive this. 441 00:29:10,720 --> 00:29:13,600 Speaker 1: Katie is shocked and devastated by the news of Jay's illness, 442 00:29:14,240 --> 00:29:17,920 Speaker 1: and it becomes a twofold secret, a secret at home 443 00:29:18,440 --> 00:29:22,440 Speaker 1: and a secret on the air. Privately, neither she nor 444 00:29:22,560 --> 00:29:25,440 Speaker 1: Jay want the news to be true, so they avoid 445 00:29:25,440 --> 00:29:28,200 Speaker 1: talking about it, as if perhaps talking about it will 446 00:29:28,240 --> 00:29:32,360 Speaker 1: make it too real and publicly, well, this isn't something 447 00:29:32,440 --> 00:29:35,080 Speaker 1: she wants to share with the public, and why should she. 448 00:29:36,480 --> 00:29:42,080 Speaker 1: I felt it was so critically important to protect Jay's privacy. 449 00:29:42,160 --> 00:29:47,680 Speaker 1: You know, this was a family matter. This was something 450 00:29:48,280 --> 00:29:52,440 Speaker 1: that was really no one's business. And you know, I 451 00:29:52,520 --> 00:29:55,960 Speaker 1: shared a lot on the Today's Show, but this wasn't 452 00:29:56,000 --> 00:29:59,840 Speaker 1: mine to share. And as you can imagine, to go 453 00:30:00,120 --> 00:30:03,480 Speaker 1: from thinking you have a healthy husband too, and the 454 00:30:03,520 --> 00:30:06,560 Speaker 1: span of twenty four hours having a doctor say it's 455 00:30:06,720 --> 00:30:09,360 Speaker 1: very bleak, he's got colin cancer and it's all over 456 00:30:09,440 --> 00:30:16,480 Speaker 1: his liver. The prognosis is very bleak. Is is pretty astounding, 457 00:30:17,200 --> 00:30:22,200 Speaker 1: and you know it was it was something that that 458 00:30:22,320 --> 00:30:24,200 Speaker 1: I didn't want to share with the world. I mean, 459 00:30:24,240 --> 00:30:28,520 Speaker 1: the world ultimately found out during the course of his illness, 460 00:30:28,640 --> 00:30:32,640 Speaker 1: thanks to you know, find publications like the National Enquirer, 461 00:30:32,800 --> 00:30:37,920 Speaker 1: but I just you know, it wasn't it wasn't for 462 00:30:38,040 --> 00:30:42,840 Speaker 1: public consumption. And you know, my close friends obviously knew 463 00:30:42,840 --> 00:30:45,240 Speaker 1: all about it. People on the show knew all about 464 00:30:45,280 --> 00:30:47,720 Speaker 1: it and what was happening and what I was going through. 465 00:30:47,920 --> 00:30:52,280 Speaker 1: But I wasn't going to be I mean, I became 466 00:30:52,400 --> 00:30:57,040 Speaker 1: sort of Katie Kurk breathing widow because you know, you 467 00:30:57,080 --> 00:31:02,280 Speaker 1: can't basically keep a secret it that your husband died, right, 468 00:31:02,560 --> 00:31:06,239 Speaker 1: But during the course of his illness, it was just 469 00:31:06,320 --> 00:31:10,200 Speaker 1: nobody's business, and it was jay. It wasn't me. You know, 470 00:31:10,280 --> 00:31:13,120 Speaker 1: maybe if it's been me, you know, I would have 471 00:31:13,160 --> 00:31:16,480 Speaker 1: been more public like Robin Roberts was with her cancer. 472 00:31:17,280 --> 00:31:19,720 Speaker 1: But it wasn't my life and it wasn't my story 473 00:31:19,760 --> 00:31:24,080 Speaker 1: to tell. I think we all have our public personas 474 00:31:25,080 --> 00:31:30,880 Speaker 1: versus our private lives. And in a way, it was 475 00:31:31,520 --> 00:31:35,480 Speaker 1: a sanctuary to be on national television and to be 476 00:31:35,560 --> 00:31:40,360 Speaker 1: interviewing people about gosh, who knows what you know, the 477 00:31:40,400 --> 00:31:44,320 Speaker 1: events of the day, or doing a cooking segment, because 478 00:31:44,360 --> 00:31:49,920 Speaker 1: it required sort of my complete focus, and it's was 479 00:31:50,600 --> 00:31:53,080 Speaker 1: the only time of the day where I wasn't thinking 480 00:31:53,880 --> 00:31:57,000 Speaker 1: and worrying about Jay and trying to come up with 481 00:31:57,040 --> 00:32:00,640 Speaker 1: a cure for risk cancer and doing research and calling 482 00:32:00,680 --> 00:32:07,960 Speaker 1: pharmaceutical companies and universities and Israeli you know, pharmaceutical company, 483 00:32:07,960 --> 00:32:12,560 Speaker 1: and calling Bird Vogelstein who discovered the Ashkenazi eugene at 484 00:32:12,640 --> 00:32:16,360 Speaker 1: Johns Hopkins, and just anyone I could find. So for 485 00:32:16,400 --> 00:32:20,520 Speaker 1: those two hours, it was it was this escape from 486 00:32:20,560 --> 00:32:25,640 Speaker 1: this nightmare that we found ourselves in, and so it 487 00:32:25,680 --> 00:32:27,920 Speaker 1: was a relief to put on kind of my happy 488 00:32:28,000 --> 00:32:32,400 Speaker 1: face and to be this Really I felt like I 489 00:32:32,480 --> 00:32:37,120 Speaker 1: was an actor. I was taking on this role and 490 00:32:37,240 --> 00:32:42,160 Speaker 1: it felt surreal. It didn't feel like my life. And 491 00:32:42,200 --> 00:32:45,600 Speaker 1: then of course it was what was really happening behind 492 00:32:45,600 --> 00:32:50,400 Speaker 1: the scenes. We all have this dichotomy between who we 493 00:32:50,520 --> 00:32:54,480 Speaker 1: present ourselves or how we present ourselves, and what's really 494 00:32:54,520 --> 00:32:59,280 Speaker 1: going on inside. And I think that was just the 495 00:32:59,400 --> 00:33:05,360 Speaker 1: extreme case of that, where I was dying inside every 496 00:33:05,440 --> 00:33:09,200 Speaker 1: single day. But I wanted. I wanted to have some 497 00:33:09,320 --> 00:33:13,280 Speaker 1: kind of routine for my kids. I wanted to keep 498 00:33:13,320 --> 00:33:16,160 Speaker 1: my job because I didn't know what was going to 499 00:33:16,200 --> 00:33:20,200 Speaker 1: happen with Ja, and I wanted some escape from the 500 00:33:20,360 --> 00:33:28,040 Speaker 1: relentless anguish of dealing with the terminal illness. Of course, 501 00:33:28,080 --> 00:33:30,480 Speaker 1: the news does get out, as news tends to do. 502 00:33:31,080 --> 00:33:33,920 Speaker 1: Katie's with Jay at the hospital at one point and 503 00:33:33,960 --> 00:33:37,040 Speaker 1: a nurse points to the cover of a tabloid and says, look, 504 00:33:37,120 --> 00:33:41,560 Speaker 1: you're in the paper. The headline is Katie's private pain, 505 00:33:42,240 --> 00:33:45,640 Speaker 1: which is suddenly not so private, And the gossip isn't 506 00:33:45,640 --> 00:33:49,120 Speaker 1: just happening in magazines, It's happening in their community too, 507 00:33:49,440 --> 00:33:54,520 Speaker 1: among other families and acquaintances. I think a mother came 508 00:33:54,600 --> 00:33:58,480 Speaker 1: up to me on the sidewalk near Ellie and Carrie's 509 00:33:58,480 --> 00:34:01,600 Speaker 1: school and said, oh, you know, I heard. I heard 510 00:34:01,640 --> 00:34:06,160 Speaker 1: it's really bad, as if it's been the subject of 511 00:34:06,240 --> 00:34:09,719 Speaker 1: you know, after school gossip among the mobs, And it 512 00:34:09,880 --> 00:34:17,640 Speaker 1: just really infuriated me that someone was gossiping about my 513 00:34:17,760 --> 00:34:20,640 Speaker 1: husband and whether he was going to live or die. 514 00:34:20,920 --> 00:34:26,719 Speaker 1: It just seems so disgusting to me, And I just 515 00:34:26,800 --> 00:34:32,240 Speaker 1: remember feeling so infuriated at the idea that that Jay's 516 00:34:32,280 --> 00:34:37,560 Speaker 1: health was the subject of of their chatter as they were, 517 00:34:37,880 --> 00:34:41,839 Speaker 1: you know, having coffee in the morning after drop off. Yeah, 518 00:34:41,960 --> 00:34:47,000 Speaker 1: there's something sort of like carnivorous about it or something. Yeah, 519 00:34:47,320 --> 00:34:49,719 Speaker 1: that's a good word. The period of time that that 520 00:34:49,800 --> 00:34:55,120 Speaker 1: Jay was sick was how long? About nine months? Nine months. 521 00:34:57,880 --> 00:35:00,640 Speaker 1: During these nine months, the family spends a lot of 522 00:35:00,680 --> 00:35:04,160 Speaker 1: time together, particularly at their country house, which is a 523 00:35:04,160 --> 00:35:07,560 Speaker 1: happy place for Jay. At one point, Katie does have 524 00:35:07,600 --> 00:35:10,440 Speaker 1: to travel for work, though she's off to London to 525 00:35:10,480 --> 00:35:13,759 Speaker 1: cover the funeral of Princess Diana, a woman she had 526 00:35:13,800 --> 00:35:17,840 Speaker 1: met and admired. As Katie is there, reporting on the 527 00:35:17,840 --> 00:35:20,839 Speaker 1: scene that broke the whole world's heart of the two 528 00:35:20,880 --> 00:35:25,480 Speaker 1: young boys walking solemnly behind their mother's casket, Katie is stricken. 529 00:35:26,000 --> 00:35:30,560 Speaker 1: She's having a hard time holding it together. It was miserable. 530 00:35:30,760 --> 00:35:35,359 Speaker 1: And you know, that was sort of when the professional 531 00:35:35,400 --> 00:35:42,120 Speaker 1: and personal worlds collided. When you see the premature death 532 00:35:42,360 --> 00:35:47,280 Speaker 1: of a young, vibrant woman and her little boys walking 533 00:35:47,360 --> 00:35:51,520 Speaker 1: behind her casket with I think a little card that 534 00:35:51,600 --> 00:35:57,000 Speaker 1: said Mummy, I believe, and it just felt too real 535 00:35:57,560 --> 00:36:00,560 Speaker 1: and it was just extremely hard. Mean, it was so 536 00:36:01,560 --> 00:36:05,240 Speaker 1: such a sad time for so many people when Princess 537 00:36:05,280 --> 00:36:08,920 Speaker 1: Diana died, and a sad time for me because I 538 00:36:08,960 --> 00:36:12,640 Speaker 1: had met her and admired her. But it just reminded 539 00:36:12,640 --> 00:36:15,879 Speaker 1: me of what I was facing in the not too 540 00:36:15,920 --> 00:36:18,960 Speaker 1: distant future. Yeah, and what your girls were going to 541 00:36:19,040 --> 00:36:23,680 Speaker 1: be facing. Yeah, of course, of course. And you know, 542 00:36:23,719 --> 00:36:27,080 Speaker 1: whether a death is sudden or a death takes nine 543 00:36:27,120 --> 00:36:31,320 Speaker 1: months or a few years, you know, with some cancer diagnoses, 544 00:36:32,080 --> 00:36:36,279 Speaker 1: it's just so painful. And I think the process of 545 00:36:36,320 --> 00:36:40,720 Speaker 1: seeing someone slip away slowly. And you know, my husband 546 00:36:40,760 --> 00:36:44,840 Speaker 1: was so young and vibrant and so fun in the 547 00:36:44,960 --> 00:36:47,680 Speaker 1: life of the party, and such a good athlete, and 548 00:36:48,560 --> 00:36:51,359 Speaker 1: you know, had been a pilot in the Navy, and 549 00:36:52,080 --> 00:36:59,160 Speaker 1: he was just this living, exuberant person. And to see 550 00:36:59,600 --> 00:37:03,480 Speaker 1: what answer does to a healthy person, it's just it's 551 00:37:03,520 --> 00:37:08,759 Speaker 1: just devastating. It's devastating for the people who are witnessing it. 552 00:37:08,840 --> 00:37:12,040 Speaker 1: And of course, as Jay said, having cancer is the 553 00:37:12,120 --> 00:37:16,680 Speaker 1: loneliest experience in the world because I think, no matter what, 554 00:37:16,840 --> 00:37:23,600 Speaker 1: nobody really can understand what that feels like. Jay dies 555 00:37:23,719 --> 00:37:27,040 Speaker 1: at the age of forty two. Sometime after his death, 556 00:37:27,600 --> 00:37:30,040 Speaker 1: Katie finds a list he had made of all their 557 00:37:30,080 --> 00:37:35,560 Speaker 1: combined assets, a very meticulous and organized list about life, insurance, 558 00:37:35,600 --> 00:37:40,520 Speaker 1: and property and capital improvements. The list, Katie notices, is 559 00:37:40,600 --> 00:37:44,279 Speaker 1: dated three months before Jay died. He was trying to 560 00:37:44,280 --> 00:37:47,880 Speaker 1: put his affairs in order. He knew, so did she, 561 00:37:48,760 --> 00:37:52,520 Speaker 1: but they didn't talk about it. It's one of my 562 00:37:52,600 --> 00:37:56,719 Speaker 1: great regrets that we didn't say, you know, what are 563 00:37:56,760 --> 00:38:00,439 Speaker 1: your wishes, what are your hopes for the girls? How 564 00:38:00,480 --> 00:38:04,320 Speaker 1: can we make sure you stay present somehow in their lives. 565 00:38:04,880 --> 00:38:07,399 Speaker 1: Do you want to write them a letter, you want 566 00:38:07,440 --> 00:38:12,800 Speaker 1: to give them a video message? We never allowed ourselves 567 00:38:12,880 --> 00:38:16,160 Speaker 1: to go there, you know, which is another reason I 568 00:38:16,280 --> 00:38:20,840 Speaker 1: named the book going There. It's also about having hard conversations, 569 00:38:21,680 --> 00:38:24,319 Speaker 1: and the closest we got was when we were in 570 00:38:24,360 --> 00:38:28,400 Speaker 1: Millbrook one weekend and it was a beautiful day and 571 00:38:29,040 --> 00:38:32,160 Speaker 1: the girls were splashing around in the pool and you know, 572 00:38:32,200 --> 00:38:35,800 Speaker 1: it was just one of those perfect afternoons. And I said, 573 00:38:35,840 --> 00:38:38,600 Speaker 1: I don't know how I'm gonna be able to come 574 00:38:38,640 --> 00:38:42,759 Speaker 1: to this house if you're not here. That was the 575 00:38:42,800 --> 00:38:45,680 Speaker 1: only thing that I had said. And he said, well, 576 00:38:45,719 --> 00:38:49,919 Speaker 1: I hope it will be full of happy memories. And 577 00:38:50,640 --> 00:38:55,399 Speaker 1: that was the closest we came to accepting that we 578 00:38:55,400 --> 00:38:58,439 Speaker 1: weren't going to be able to fix it. And I think, 579 00:38:58,719 --> 00:39:03,200 Speaker 1: Gosh talk about lack of control and feeling powerless and 580 00:39:03,239 --> 00:39:06,960 Speaker 1: wanting to control the world. I thought, she, if I 581 00:39:07,080 --> 00:39:11,840 Speaker 1: just somehow get to the right doctors or find the 582 00:39:12,000 --> 00:39:15,239 Speaker 1: right research or clinical trial, I'm going to be able 583 00:39:15,239 --> 00:39:20,120 Speaker 1: to fix this. And I thought, for some reason TV 584 00:39:20,320 --> 00:39:24,000 Speaker 1: would ignore me from having something like this happened. I 585 00:39:24,000 --> 00:39:28,120 Speaker 1: don't know where that magical thinking came from, but you know, 586 00:39:28,160 --> 00:39:31,920 Speaker 1: I just really wish that we had had more honest 587 00:39:31,960 --> 00:39:34,719 Speaker 1: conversations that we were just I think we were both 588 00:39:34,719 --> 00:39:39,799 Speaker 1: too afraid. He was too afraid to honestly disappoint me 589 00:39:39,920 --> 00:39:44,120 Speaker 1: and leave me, and I was too afraid to talk 590 00:39:44,200 --> 00:39:46,279 Speaker 1: to him about the fact that he might not be 591 00:39:46,360 --> 00:39:49,319 Speaker 1: around and he might not win this battle. And I 592 00:39:49,360 --> 00:39:53,719 Speaker 1: think a lot of families really wrestle with this um 593 00:39:54,000 --> 00:39:58,280 Speaker 1: kind of this trying to find a bridge between hope 594 00:39:58,320 --> 00:40:03,839 Speaker 1: and reality and hope and acceptance. It's really, I think 595 00:40:03,960 --> 00:40:07,319 Speaker 1: the hardest thing in the world to navigate well, and 596 00:40:07,360 --> 00:40:13,319 Speaker 1: there's still a culture of silence around it. Yeah. After 597 00:40:13,440 --> 00:40:17,080 Speaker 1: Jay's death, Katie endures a series of tragedies and losses, 598 00:40:17,560 --> 00:40:21,839 Speaker 1: almost like dominoes, one after the other. Katie's father had, 599 00:40:22,000 --> 00:40:26,280 Speaker 1: unbeknownst to her, been suffering from Parkinson's. In an attempt 600 00:40:26,360 --> 00:40:29,439 Speaker 1: to protect her, her parents kept us from her because 601 00:40:29,480 --> 00:40:31,600 Speaker 1: they felt she had all she could handle on her plate. 602 00:40:33,200 --> 00:40:36,600 Speaker 1: A couple of years later, her sister Emily is diagnosed 603 00:40:36,600 --> 00:40:39,680 Speaker 1: with pancreatic cancer and she dies at the age of 604 00:40:39,719 --> 00:40:43,880 Speaker 1: fifty four. Her sister in law two dies at age 605 00:40:43,880 --> 00:40:48,720 Speaker 1: fifty four. The loss is enormous and to the grieving, 606 00:40:49,600 --> 00:40:54,240 Speaker 1: but Katie perseveres. She goes there, she heals, She takes 607 00:40:54,280 --> 00:40:58,120 Speaker 1: care of her daughters. She eventually remarries her husband, John, 608 00:40:58,680 --> 00:41:01,680 Speaker 1: and she continues to have a robust and prolific career. 609 00:41:02,800 --> 00:41:05,799 Speaker 1: At one point, she has the liberating epiphany that she 610 00:41:05,840 --> 00:41:10,160 Speaker 1: doesn't need to be forever popular and well liked. She 611 00:41:10,239 --> 00:41:13,840 Speaker 1: no longer needs to uphold a certain image, No longer 612 00:41:13,880 --> 00:41:18,680 Speaker 1: needs to be afraid to have the hard conversations. Grief 613 00:41:18,760 --> 00:41:23,120 Speaker 1: and loss I think makes you acutely aware that life 614 00:41:23,160 --> 00:41:29,240 Speaker 1: is fragile and we're all terminal. And I think it 615 00:41:29,320 --> 00:41:34,279 Speaker 1: makes you appreciate every day a little more. I mean, 616 00:41:34,320 --> 00:41:38,680 Speaker 1: you still fall into these traps where you take things 617 00:41:38,680 --> 00:41:41,799 Speaker 1: for granted, and you you're not as grateful as you 618 00:41:41,800 --> 00:41:44,279 Speaker 1: should be to wake up in the morning and to 619 00:41:44,840 --> 00:41:49,799 Speaker 1: feel good or feel fine. But I think that I've 620 00:41:49,800 --> 00:41:54,120 Speaker 1: always been a pretty authentic person and true to myself. 621 00:41:54,520 --> 00:42:02,760 Speaker 1: And this idea of of just yearning for approval and 622 00:42:02,840 --> 00:42:06,279 Speaker 1: yearning for popularity and for people to like me when 623 00:42:06,320 --> 00:42:11,919 Speaker 1: they don't really even know me um is just foolhardy 624 00:42:12,239 --> 00:42:18,120 Speaker 1: and feudal. And I think that I have tried to 625 00:42:18,239 --> 00:42:23,239 Speaker 1: embrace every stage of my life, whether it was in 626 00:42:23,320 --> 00:42:25,879 Speaker 1: my forties or in my fifties, and now I'm in 627 00:42:25,880 --> 00:42:30,319 Speaker 1: my sixties, and John really keeps me grounded. Whenever I'll 628 00:42:30,440 --> 00:42:33,319 Speaker 1: bitch about getting older, he's gonna He'll say, you know, 629 00:42:33,360 --> 00:42:35,080 Speaker 1: when you're seventy, you're going to say I wish I 630 00:42:35,160 --> 00:42:37,880 Speaker 1: was sixty five, So enjoy it while you can. He 631 00:42:37,960 --> 00:42:40,440 Speaker 1: always says things like, you're never going to get any younger. 632 00:42:41,040 --> 00:42:45,640 Speaker 1: So you know, I have a great partner who is 633 00:42:45,680 --> 00:42:50,200 Speaker 1: incredibly supportive and fun and just good company and just 634 00:42:50,640 --> 00:42:54,279 Speaker 1: you know, I just love being around. A lot of 635 00:42:54,320 --> 00:42:57,680 Speaker 1: my life is in my rear view mirror, but I 636 00:42:57,800 --> 00:43:03,640 Speaker 1: want to continue doing and challenging myself and asking questions 637 00:43:03,800 --> 00:43:07,879 Speaker 1: and hopefully being of service in any way I can, 638 00:43:08,040 --> 00:43:12,640 Speaker 1: whether it's through raising money for cancer research or hopefully 639 00:43:12,719 --> 00:43:18,160 Speaker 1: helping people contextualize the complicated world we're living in, or 640 00:43:18,200 --> 00:43:21,680 Speaker 1: just giving them some information that will lead to a 641 00:43:21,719 --> 00:43:26,120 Speaker 1: deeper understanding. I feel so fortunate. I feel guilty actually 642 00:43:26,800 --> 00:43:31,120 Speaker 1: that I've been so blessed, and there's so much suffering 643 00:43:31,160 --> 00:43:35,320 Speaker 1: in the world. So how do you combine enjoying life 644 00:43:35,400 --> 00:43:40,680 Speaker 1: but also being of service and supporting other people who 645 00:43:40,760 --> 00:43:44,880 Speaker 1: aren't in the same situation as you. I mean, I 646 00:43:44,920 --> 00:43:48,280 Speaker 1: think that's kind of the constant battle we all face, 647 00:43:49,160 --> 00:43:53,200 Speaker 1: and so I'm plagued by those things. But yeah, I'm 648 00:43:53,239 --> 00:43:56,319 Speaker 1: just trying to really have a life of purpose for 649 00:43:56,360 --> 00:43:58,960 Speaker 1: as long as I can. And I'm the kind of 650 00:43:59,040 --> 00:44:02,120 Speaker 1: person that I don't think I'll ever be able to retire. 651 00:44:02,840 --> 00:44:05,759 Speaker 1: It's just not in my d n a. I have 652 00:44:05,880 --> 00:44:11,279 Speaker 1: to feel productive. I think I got that from my mom. 653 00:44:11,360 --> 00:44:14,719 Speaker 1: Katie starts a new company, Katie Correct Media. She has 654 00:44:14,719 --> 00:44:19,000 Speaker 1: a newsletter, a podcast, a fantastic presence on Instagram, and 655 00:44:19,080 --> 00:44:24,080 Speaker 1: a best selling book. She's nothing if not productive. I'm 656 00:44:24,120 --> 00:44:27,880 Speaker 1: so excited to learn something new every day, you know, 657 00:44:28,000 --> 00:44:33,600 Speaker 1: I'm learning about thermonuclear weapons when I'm reading articles about 658 00:44:33,719 --> 00:44:38,120 Speaker 1: the Russian military and getting a deeper understanding and reminding 659 00:44:38,200 --> 00:44:41,800 Speaker 1: myself of what happened. Why was it called the Iron Curtain? 660 00:44:42,320 --> 00:44:44,879 Speaker 1: So like Google is my best friend, I look things up. 661 00:44:45,000 --> 00:44:49,759 Speaker 1: I just have this insatiable hunger for knowledge, and so 662 00:44:49,800 --> 00:44:53,160 Speaker 1: if I can share that, that makes me so happy. 663 00:44:53,200 --> 00:44:55,759 Speaker 1: And then but also I don't want to be so 664 00:44:55,920 --> 00:45:01,280 Speaker 1: myopic that I I don't appreciate the people in my life. 665 00:45:01,360 --> 00:45:04,520 Speaker 1: You know, Chase said him when he was sick. Now, 666 00:45:04,560 --> 00:45:07,439 Speaker 1: this was at the height of our careers, when we're 667 00:45:07,480 --> 00:45:12,200 Speaker 1: really focused on our careers and obviously our family. But 668 00:45:12,360 --> 00:45:15,480 Speaker 1: you know that early forties, right cuts when you really 669 00:45:16,160 --> 00:45:19,560 Speaker 1: are operating on all four cylinders. I always get that 670 00:45:19,600 --> 00:45:23,000 Speaker 1: expression wrong, But he said, nothing really matters but your 671 00:45:23,040 --> 00:45:28,160 Speaker 1: family and friends. And that was such an important reminder 672 00:45:28,400 --> 00:45:31,759 Speaker 1: that nobody is going to give a rat's ass when 673 00:45:31,800 --> 00:45:34,759 Speaker 1: you die right, you're If you're lucky, you'll get a 674 00:45:34,840 --> 00:45:37,680 Speaker 1: mention in the obituaries, and maybe you'll have to pay 675 00:45:37,719 --> 00:45:42,120 Speaker 1: for it, right, Who knows. But the things that lead 676 00:45:42,520 --> 00:45:46,360 Speaker 1: to a rich and fulfilling life are your relationships, so 677 00:45:46,400 --> 00:45:49,919 Speaker 1: I try to be mindful of that as well. It's 678 00:45:49,920 --> 00:45:52,640 Speaker 1: a work in progress every day to find the right 679 00:45:52,680 --> 00:45:56,680 Speaker 1: balance of what is a meaningful life. But I'm still 680 00:45:56,719 --> 00:46:00,440 Speaker 1: doing it and still working on it, and you know, 681 00:46:00,520 --> 00:46:05,800 Speaker 1: still loving every minute. We can never see the future. 682 00:46:06,400 --> 00:46:09,560 Speaker 1: We have no crystal ball. We just don't know what's 683 00:46:09,560 --> 00:46:13,800 Speaker 1: coming around the bend. All we can do always is 684 00:46:13,840 --> 00:46:17,640 Speaker 1: the best with what we have. Here's Katie reading a 685 00:46:17,640 --> 00:46:21,360 Speaker 1: beautiful passage from her memoir, an Elegy to a time 686 00:46:21,480 --> 00:46:26,640 Speaker 1: of innocence. With two little girls and all four of 687 00:46:26,680 --> 00:46:30,440 Speaker 1: our parents alive and thriving, we were in the happiness bubble, 688 00:46:31,000 --> 00:46:34,800 Speaker 1: buffer generationally by the people we loved most in the world. 689 00:46:35,680 --> 00:46:38,280 Speaker 1: Nothing made my heart sing like seeing a young couple 690 00:46:38,320 --> 00:46:43,319 Speaker 1: pushing a stroller alongside vibrant grandparents. My mom would visit 691 00:46:43,360 --> 00:46:45,680 Speaker 1: and come with me to pick up Ellie from school. 692 00:46:46,160 --> 00:46:49,360 Speaker 1: My parents stayed with us in Moriytown and Leader Millbrook. 693 00:46:49,920 --> 00:46:54,120 Speaker 1: We love double dating with them. Jay's equally fun folks 694 00:46:54,160 --> 00:46:57,640 Speaker 1: had a house in Rhogah's Beach. His siblings kids were 695 00:46:57,680 --> 00:47:00,640 Speaker 1: around the same age as ours, so it was always 696 00:47:00,719 --> 00:47:04,279 Speaker 1: cousin central when we visited. There's a funny photo of 697 00:47:04,320 --> 00:47:06,960 Speaker 1: me and Jay's sisters Barbara and Claire, and his brother 698 00:47:07,080 --> 00:47:11,160 Speaker 1: Chris's wife Cathy, all pregnant at the same time. They 699 00:47:11,160 --> 00:47:14,239 Speaker 1: had a piano and a fireplace. We bust out the 700 00:47:14,320 --> 00:47:17,520 Speaker 1: chips and salts and watch old movies like How Green 701 00:47:17,680 --> 00:47:21,680 Speaker 1: Was My Valley and Mrs Minever. At the time, it 702 00:47:21,680 --> 00:47:25,400 Speaker 1: didn't occur to me that one day the bubble would burst. 703 00:47:26,440 --> 00:47:39,920 Speaker 1: That's what bubbles do. Family Secrets is a production of 704 00:47:39,960 --> 00:47:43,680 Speaker 1: I Heart Radio. Molly Zukour is the story editor and 705 00:47:43,800 --> 00:47:47,440 Speaker 1: Dylan Fagan is the executive producer. If you have a 706 00:47:47,440 --> 00:47:50,000 Speaker 1: family secret you'd like to share, please leave us a 707 00:47:50,080 --> 00:47:52,960 Speaker 1: voicemail and your story could appear on an upcoming episode. 708 00:47:53,400 --> 00:47:57,440 Speaker 1: Our number is one eight eight Secret zero. That's the 709 00:47:57,520 --> 00:48:02,640 Speaker 1: number zero. You can also find on Instagram at Danny writer. 710 00:48:03,520 --> 00:48:05,480 Speaker 1: And if you'd like to know more about the story 711 00:48:05,520 --> 00:48:25,759 Speaker 1: that inspired this podcast, check out my memoir Inheritance. For 712 00:48:25,840 --> 00:48:28,919 Speaker 1: more podcasts for My Heart Radio, visit the I heart radio, app, 713 00:48:29,000 --> 00:48:32,000 Speaker 1: Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. 714 00:48:35,840 --> 00:48:35,880 Speaker 1: H