1
00:00:05,200 --> 00:00:06,800
Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha.

2
00:00:06,960 --> 00:00:08,600
Speaker 2: I'm welcome to stuff I've Never told you, a production

3
00:00:08,640 --> 00:00:20,800
Speaker 2: of iHeartRadio, and we're back with part two of our classic.

4
00:00:20,520 --> 00:00:22,320
Speaker 1: On a librarians Now.

5
00:00:23,160 --> 00:00:26,440
Speaker 2: If you're wondering, if you haven't heard the previous classic,

6
00:00:27,240 --> 00:00:32,280
Speaker 2: most librarians are women. There is a history of why

7
00:00:32,320 --> 00:00:36,760
Speaker 2: that is, and that's what was broken down in these

8
00:00:36,800 --> 00:00:39,920
Speaker 2: I will say, looking back for me, almost all the

9
00:00:39,960 --> 00:00:46,479
Speaker 2: librarianes I've interacted with were women. Me too, Yeah, and

10
00:00:46,520 --> 00:00:50,040
Speaker 2: they were great. They were always so like knowledgeable and

11
00:00:50,080 --> 00:00:56,240
Speaker 2: welcoming and excited. They had recommendations, which I love. I'm

12
00:00:56,280 --> 00:01:01,480
Speaker 2: just a really big fan. But part of why we're

13
00:01:01,480 --> 00:01:04,640
Speaker 2: bringing this back is because book banning has really gotten

14
00:01:04,720 --> 00:01:06,280
Speaker 2: much worse since we last talked about it, which was

15
00:01:06,280 --> 00:01:11,119
Speaker 2: a year ago twenty twenty three, and librarians are in

16
00:01:11,160 --> 00:01:13,640
Speaker 2: many ways bearing the brunt of it. They're having to

17
00:01:13,680 --> 00:01:17,680
Speaker 2: speak it like council meetings, government council meetings and having

18
00:01:17,680 --> 00:01:23,760
Speaker 2: their funding slashed and having people say these really horrible

19
00:01:23,800 --> 00:01:27,560
Speaker 2: things about them that are unfounded and just based in

20
00:01:28,640 --> 00:01:32,480
Speaker 2: a lot of like hate groups saying attack the librarians,

21
00:01:33,080 --> 00:01:36,040
Speaker 2: which I think should say something. That's always a bad

22
00:01:36,160 --> 00:01:40,040
Speaker 2: sign when like your public information and knowledge and people

23
00:01:40,040 --> 00:01:43,440
Speaker 2: who are helping Stewart that are being attacked, so we

24
00:01:43,480 --> 00:01:47,639
Speaker 2: should pay attention to that in that vein. Please enjoy

25
00:01:47,760 --> 00:01:51,680
Speaker 2: this classic episode.

26
00:01:53,120 --> 00:01:56,400
Speaker 3: Welcome to Stuff Mom Never Told You from houstuff works

27
00:01:56,400 --> 00:02:02,400
Speaker 3: dot com.

28
00:02:02,440 --> 00:02:06,200
Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Kristen and I'm Caroline.

29
00:02:05,680 --> 00:02:09,600
Speaker 4: And welcome back to our conversation about librarians.

30
00:02:09,760 --> 00:02:13,679
Speaker 5: Yes, pour yourself a library beverage, which you won't get

31
00:02:13,680 --> 00:02:15,440
Speaker 5: that joke if you missed our first.

32
00:02:15,200 --> 00:02:20,240
Speaker 4: Episode, but in case you're wondering, it is lime, BlackBerry.

33
00:02:19,800 --> 00:02:22,080
Speaker 1: And gin and maybe a little bit of fizzy water.

34
00:02:22,280 --> 00:02:24,800
Speaker 6: Totally fizzywater ever ice.

35
00:02:25,000 --> 00:02:27,000
Speaker 1: It's our new summer cocktail. That's right.

36
00:02:27,320 --> 00:02:31,840
Speaker 4: So in our last episode, we talked about the original

37
00:02:31,919 --> 00:02:37,079
Speaker 4: librarians in the original librarian stereotype, which was a white, fusty,

38
00:02:37,240 --> 00:02:38,920
Speaker 4: curmudgeonly fellow.

39
00:02:38,919 --> 00:02:42,920
Speaker 6: Right picture Giles from Buffy, but not as cool.

40
00:02:43,160 --> 00:02:44,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, totally not as cool.

41
00:02:45,360 --> 00:02:49,720
Speaker 4: If Melville Dewey had been Buffy's watcher, ooh, it would

42
00:02:49,760 --> 00:02:51,560
Speaker 4: have gotten real creepy or real fat.

43
00:02:51,600 --> 00:02:54,000
Speaker 6: It would have been the worst. I'm putting that image

44
00:02:54,000 --> 00:02:55,120
Speaker 6: out of my brain immediately.

45
00:02:55,200 --> 00:02:57,520
Speaker 1: He would have been like literally like watching her all

46
00:02:57,520 --> 00:02:59,400
Speaker 1: the time outside her windows.

47
00:02:59,200 --> 00:03:02,200
Speaker 6: Just like hugging, like no, I'm friendly, I'm friendly. This

48
00:03:02,280 --> 00:03:02,880
Speaker 6: isn't creepy.

49
00:03:02,880 --> 00:03:04,440
Speaker 1: Maybe that was such a rough fight.

50
00:03:04,520 --> 00:03:06,600
Speaker 6: Let me just don't tell anyone I did this.

51
00:03:07,160 --> 00:03:10,720
Speaker 1: So in case you're completely lost right now, don't worry.

52
00:03:10,880 --> 00:03:15,520
Speaker 4: It's all explained in the previous episode because Melville Dewey

53
00:03:15,720 --> 00:03:20,880
Speaker 4: of the Dewey decimal system is a big reason why

54
00:03:21,440 --> 00:03:27,240
Speaker 4: librarianship became so quickly feminized and remains feminized.

55
00:03:27,440 --> 00:03:29,000
Speaker 1: Like we said in our last.

56
00:03:28,760 --> 00:03:33,200
Speaker 4: Episode, today, more than eighty percent of all librarians are women.

57
00:03:33,800 --> 00:03:35,040
Speaker 1: It's mostly white women.

58
00:03:36,600 --> 00:03:40,640
Speaker 4: Women of color comprise less than sixteen percent of all librarians.

59
00:03:40,760 --> 00:03:44,320
Speaker 4: And we're going to get into diversity later on in

60
00:03:44,320 --> 00:03:49,400
Speaker 4: the podcast, but in this episode, we want to focus

61
00:03:49,600 --> 00:03:54,080
Speaker 4: on what was happening with the women as Dewey and

62
00:03:54,120 --> 00:04:00,600
Speaker 4: his cohorts were standardizing this profession and quotes, and I

63
00:04:00,600 --> 00:04:04,200
Speaker 4: say in quotes because there was this whole debate and

64
00:04:04,280 --> 00:04:06,640
Speaker 4: kind of remains a debate as to whether or not

65
00:04:07,120 --> 00:04:09,240
Speaker 4: librarianship is a profession.

66
00:04:09,360 --> 00:04:13,240
Speaker 6: Yeah, like a profession like a lawyer versus a service

67
00:04:13,360 --> 00:04:17,400
Speaker 6: oriented job exactly. Yeah, And a lot of this information

68
00:04:17,520 --> 00:04:21,000
Speaker 6: is coming from this fabulous paper we read called The

69
00:04:21,080 --> 00:04:27,279
Speaker 6: Tender Technicians, not Tender the Tender, The Tender Technicians, the

70
00:04:27,320 --> 00:04:29,839
Speaker 6: feminization of public librarianship.

71
00:04:29,920 --> 00:04:32,760
Speaker 1: It's basically sminty in a paper.

72
00:04:33,279 --> 00:04:39,880
Speaker 6: It's so fascinating and full of really incredible detail about

73
00:04:40,160 --> 00:04:45,000
Speaker 6: gender dynamics and anxieties about gender in librarianship.

74
00:04:45,160 --> 00:04:50,240
Speaker 4: Yeah, there's so many intersections of gender, class, raise, sexuality

75
00:04:50,360 --> 00:04:50,880
Speaker 4: going on.

76
00:04:51,440 --> 00:04:53,560
Speaker 1: In the development of librarianship.

77
00:04:53,760 --> 00:04:56,599
Speaker 4: And now I will think of that every time a

78
00:04:56,760 --> 00:04:58,760
Speaker 4: I smell that book smell love it, which is one

79
00:04:58,800 --> 00:05:01,360
Speaker 4: of my favorite smells. Wish then instead of the new

80
00:05:01,400 --> 00:05:04,279
Speaker 4: car smell, I could get a car that just smells

81
00:05:04,560 --> 00:05:05,400
Speaker 4: like a library.

82
00:05:06,240 --> 00:05:09,039
Speaker 1: It's that old, that old book smell.

83
00:05:08,880 --> 00:05:11,440
Speaker 6: And you just had a book in your car at

84
00:05:11,440 --> 00:05:13,159
Speaker 6: all times that you could rest your face on.

85
00:05:13,640 --> 00:05:15,720
Speaker 1: Am I the only one who likes to snuggle a book?

86
00:05:16,600 --> 00:05:17,800
Speaker 1: It's pages? Never mind?

87
00:05:17,839 --> 00:05:21,880
Speaker 6: Anyway, what I was going to say is that.

88
00:05:22,360 --> 00:05:27,040
Speaker 5: We we move after after the Civil War, we move

89
00:05:27,160 --> 00:05:33,440
Speaker 5: from the stereotypical librarian being a curmudgeonly upper class white.

90
00:05:33,160 --> 00:05:39,039
Speaker 6: Guy to it being a spinster woman. And so what

91
00:05:39,320 --> 00:05:44,520
Speaker 6: was going on. Basically, libraries were opening very quickly, as

92
00:05:44,560 --> 00:05:49,400
Speaker 6: we discussed in our last episode. They needed workers, and

93
00:05:49,440 --> 00:05:52,800
Speaker 6: they needed them cheaply, and as happens with so many

94
00:05:53,000 --> 00:05:59,760
Speaker 6: fields and industries in the world, in this country, they

95
00:06:00,040 --> 00:06:01,520
Speaker 6: looked at women as a bargain.

96
00:06:01,880 --> 00:06:05,320
Speaker 4: Yeah, women were absolutely a bargain because there were very

97
00:06:05,360 --> 00:06:09,400
Speaker 4: few job opportunities for women at the time. And at

98
00:06:09,400 --> 00:06:14,400
Speaker 4: the time we're talking about is the late eighteen seventies

99
00:06:14,600 --> 00:06:16,440
Speaker 4: into the turn of the century.

100
00:06:16,760 --> 00:06:20,240
Speaker 1: So this is the period when the guys at.

101
00:06:20,120 --> 00:06:23,880
Speaker 4: The top, Dewey at all, are really trying to professionalize things.

102
00:06:24,000 --> 00:06:29,000
Speaker 4: But parallel to the development of the public school system,

103
00:06:29,240 --> 00:06:33,880
Speaker 4: they can't get teachers or librarians fast enough. Because of

104
00:06:33,920 --> 00:06:38,640
Speaker 4: industrialization and urbanization, men are being attracted to different kinds

105
00:06:38,960 --> 00:06:44,320
Speaker 4: of jobs and entrepreneurialism. So who's a bargain. Women are

106
00:06:44,360 --> 00:06:50,359
Speaker 4: a bargain. And by eighteen seventy eight, two thirds of

107
00:06:50,560 --> 00:06:54,480
Speaker 4: library workers in terms of the clerks and assistants, were women.

108
00:06:54,880 --> 00:06:59,239
Speaker 4: And it's no surprise because libraries tended to have pretty

109
00:06:59,279 --> 00:07:03,279
Speaker 4: small budgets. They had to be thrifty with what they

110
00:07:03,440 --> 00:07:08,880
Speaker 4: had from taxes and endowments. And in an eighteen seventy

111
00:07:08,960 --> 00:07:14,280
Speaker 4: six article titled how to make Town Libraries Successful, one

112
00:07:14,320 --> 00:07:17,680
Speaker 4: of the tips was quote, women should be employed as

113
00:07:17,760 --> 00:07:22,200
Speaker 4: librarians and assistants as far as possible, essentially as far

114
00:07:22,600 --> 00:07:24,720
Speaker 4: up the ranks as possible.

115
00:07:25,760 --> 00:07:30,320
Speaker 6: Yeah, it's crazy to me to read about women as.

116
00:07:31,600 --> 00:07:32,280
Speaker 1: Objects.

117
00:07:32,680 --> 00:07:35,200
Speaker 6: I mean, I know I'm saying that as a co

118
00:07:35,240 --> 00:07:37,160
Speaker 6: host of Sminty and so I should be used to that.

119
00:07:37,240 --> 00:07:40,280
Speaker 6: But like, literally, women aren't discussed as, oh, they're a

120
00:07:40,280 --> 00:07:43,320
Speaker 6: great investment because they're hard workers, or they're so smart,

121
00:07:43,520 --> 00:07:48,240
Speaker 6: or like they go to a fabulous all women library schools.

122
00:07:48,400 --> 00:07:52,240
Speaker 6: It's literally like, get those women bodied people in here

123
00:07:52,400 --> 00:07:54,119
Speaker 6: because they are so cheap.

124
00:07:54,480 --> 00:07:56,679
Speaker 4: Yeah, and you'll get a lot of bang for your buck,

125
00:07:56,760 --> 00:07:59,720
Speaker 4: whereas if you hire a man cheaply. And this is

126
00:07:59,760 --> 00:08:02,280
Speaker 4: a according to this eighteen seventy six article, this is

127
00:08:02,320 --> 00:08:04,200
Speaker 4: me not just going off the mouth.

128
00:08:04,640 --> 00:08:05,560
Speaker 1: If you hire a.

129
00:08:05,480 --> 00:08:07,840
Speaker 4: Man at the same rate, you're not going to get

130
00:08:07,880 --> 00:08:11,920
Speaker 4: as much work out of him because these are as

131
00:08:12,200 --> 00:08:16,840
Speaker 4: the title of the paper says, they have a tender technicians. Again,

132
00:08:16,880 --> 00:08:20,000
Speaker 4: not to be confused with the tender technicians, because that's

133
00:08:20,040 --> 00:08:25,680
Speaker 4: another podcast. And this kind of work, like being a secretary,

134
00:08:26,200 --> 00:08:29,840
Speaker 4: like being a teacher, but even more so, was considered

135
00:08:30,240 --> 00:08:37,040
Speaker 4: respectable and very women appropriate because books equaled culture, and

136
00:08:37,200 --> 00:08:43,199
Speaker 4: thus it was within women's separate sphere during this Victorian.

137
00:08:42,840 --> 00:08:45,720
Speaker 6: Era, right because, as we discussed in our last episode,

138
00:08:45,800 --> 00:08:50,679
Speaker 6: we had moved away from the masculine ideal being the elite, genteel,

139
00:08:51,400 --> 00:08:53,960
Speaker 6: non working man, the man who sat around with his

140
00:08:54,000 --> 00:08:58,559
Speaker 6: bubble pipe at home. Now we have the ideal masculinity

141
00:08:58,600 --> 00:09:02,360
Speaker 6: being the self made hardware man. And so you have

142
00:09:03,080 --> 00:09:06,160
Speaker 6: a job where, yes you have to leave the house,

143
00:09:06,280 --> 00:09:12,000
Speaker 6: but it's now so much better suited to complimenting what

144
00:09:12,240 --> 00:09:15,400
Speaker 6: masculinity was perceived to be at the time. So you

145
00:09:15,440 --> 00:09:20,760
Speaker 6: have women being the overseers of culture, working in quiet libraries,

146
00:09:21,200 --> 00:09:24,360
Speaker 6: and it was perceived to be this great position, even

147
00:09:24,440 --> 00:09:27,160
Speaker 6: more so than teaching, because you didn't have to breathe

148
00:09:27,200 --> 00:09:31,040
Speaker 6: that bad air of those stifled classrooms. And again not

149
00:09:31,120 --> 00:09:34,200
Speaker 6: my words words of the time, you didn't have to

150
00:09:34,200 --> 00:09:36,760
Speaker 6: be around dirty children all day, and you didn't have

151
00:09:36,800 --> 00:09:37,240
Speaker 6: to put in.

152
00:09:37,200 --> 00:09:39,800
Speaker 1: All of that hard mental and physical work.

153
00:09:39,960 --> 00:09:42,760
Speaker 4: Well, and as we talk about in our episode for

154
00:09:42,800 --> 00:09:46,920
Speaker 4: a while back on the feminization of teaching, like ye

155
00:09:46,920 --> 00:09:51,240
Speaker 4: oldie public schools were kind of intense sometimes, like because

156
00:09:51,640 --> 00:09:56,440
Speaker 4: you would have these untrained women teachers coming in with

157
00:09:56,559 --> 00:10:00,240
Speaker 4: students of all ages, sometimes who were a larger and

158
00:10:00,320 --> 00:10:06,560
Speaker 4: taller than them, and it could be physically exacting to

159
00:10:06,960 --> 00:10:09,800
Speaker 4: manage a classroom. Oh yeah, because you have, of course,

160
00:10:09,880 --> 00:10:14,480
Speaker 4: like all different grades smushed together, but not so in

161
00:10:14,520 --> 00:10:15,280
Speaker 4: a library.

162
00:10:15,520 --> 00:10:17,040
Speaker 1: And the way that.

163
00:10:17,320 --> 00:10:23,840
Speaker 4: Libraries were even advertised was as domestic spaces, because these

164
00:10:23,880 --> 00:10:27,920
Speaker 4: were public facing roles where people would come in and

165
00:10:28,240 --> 00:10:31,320
Speaker 4: you would be, you know, obviously like guiding them to

166
00:10:31,600 --> 00:10:35,200
Speaker 4: the kinds of books and learning. There was the benevolent

167
00:10:36,520 --> 00:10:44,280
Speaker 4: feminine mission of libraries. So on the one hand, it's

168
00:10:44,400 --> 00:10:50,000
Speaker 4: good that libraries were so welcoming to women because it

169
00:10:50,080 --> 00:10:53,640
Speaker 4: gave them job opportunities, but on the other hand, because

170
00:10:53,720 --> 00:11:00,800
Speaker 4: it's so neatly fit into that Victorian womanhood idea that

171
00:11:00,880 --> 00:11:05,360
Speaker 4: it really handicapped them from asserting equal status with men

172
00:11:05,440 --> 00:11:08,800
Speaker 4: since they were essentially conforming in this role.

173
00:11:09,600 --> 00:11:12,600
Speaker 6: Yeah, and it's no surprise that the first children's libraries

174
00:11:12,600 --> 00:11:15,600
Speaker 6: and reading rooms that this country saw were overseen by women.

175
00:11:15,840 --> 00:11:19,800
Speaker 6: And you know, we read stories too about women in

176
00:11:19,840 --> 00:11:24,680
Speaker 6: the progressive era who ran reading rooms in like tenement

177
00:11:24,679 --> 00:11:29,120
Speaker 6: housing and settlement housing, who really dedicated themselves to the

178
00:11:29,240 --> 00:11:34,040
Speaker 6: moral and social uplift of either the lower classes or immigrants.

179
00:11:34,200 --> 00:11:37,480
Speaker 1: Or both through reading.

180
00:11:37,559 --> 00:11:40,559
Speaker 6: There was one woman in I wish I could remember

181
00:11:40,600 --> 00:11:43,160
Speaker 6: her story, but there was one woman in Boston who

182
00:11:43,400 --> 00:11:46,760
Speaker 6: established the Saturday what was it called the Saturday Evening

183
00:11:46,760 --> 00:11:51,120
Speaker 6: Girls Club. Yes, and I mean it was as cool

184
00:11:51,120 --> 00:11:54,079
Speaker 6: as it sounds. I'm gonna say that it sounded cool

185
00:11:54,120 --> 00:12:00,560
Speaker 6: to me. And it literally brought poorer young women together

186
00:12:01,320 --> 00:12:05,720
Speaker 6: of all different backgrounds, Jewish girls, Italian girls, you know

187
00:12:05,760 --> 00:12:08,960
Speaker 6: who might Irish girls who might not meet at church

188
00:12:09,440 --> 00:12:12,839
Speaker 6: or at school because they are so separated by neighborhood.

189
00:12:12,840 --> 00:12:16,199
Speaker 6: They were able to come together in these library clubs

190
00:12:16,640 --> 00:12:20,160
Speaker 6: that started popping up in Boston. And they were I mean,

191
00:12:20,200 --> 00:12:23,920
Speaker 6: they took dance lessons, they obviously focused a lot on

192
00:12:23,960 --> 00:12:28,760
Speaker 6: reading and literature and literacy, and it gave so many

193
00:12:28,800 --> 00:12:31,920
Speaker 6: girls an opportunity to be out of the house learning

194
00:12:32,120 --> 00:12:34,720
Speaker 6: rather than holding down a job at fourteen.

195
00:12:34,960 --> 00:12:37,880
Speaker 4: Well, and that's the catch twenty two of this whole thing,

196
00:12:38,080 --> 00:12:44,080
Speaker 4: because yes, you have like the restriction of all of

197
00:12:44,120 --> 00:12:46,640
Speaker 4: the gender norms that were kind of heaped upon this

198
00:12:47,000 --> 00:12:52,679
Speaker 4: particular occupation, but like the importance of their work, like

199
00:12:53,480 --> 00:12:55,400
Speaker 4: can't be emphasized enough.

200
00:12:55,600 --> 00:12:59,840
Speaker 6: Well, and it's also the fact that you know, we

201
00:13:00,080 --> 00:13:03,240
Speaker 6: don't have to tell you this, fair, listeners, but masculine

202
00:13:03,400 --> 00:13:06,680
Speaker 6: is the norm in our society. And so even with

203
00:13:06,760 --> 00:13:11,880
Speaker 6: the important roles that these librarians were playing, because they

204
00:13:11,880 --> 00:13:16,679
Speaker 6: were pursuing a quote unquote more feminine way of doing things,

205
00:13:16,760 --> 00:13:18,720
Speaker 6: it was easier to dismiss.

206
00:13:18,400 --> 00:13:21,200
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, and they didn't really have any power

207
00:13:21,240 --> 00:13:25,720
Speaker 4: within the profession either, which leads us to how some

208
00:13:25,880 --> 00:13:31,439
Speaker 4: women were totally aware that the system was rigged. In

209
00:13:31,520 --> 00:13:36,640
Speaker 4: eighteen ninety one, we have Caroline Hwans raising the quote

210
00:13:36,720 --> 00:13:41,000
Speaker 4: unquote woman question at a meeting of the American Library Association,

211
00:13:41,320 --> 00:13:43,720
Speaker 4: which means that she was essentially getting up to a

212
00:13:43,840 --> 00:13:50,240
Speaker 4: room mostly filled with men, saying, Okay, I'm a little

213
00:13:50,320 --> 00:13:55,920
Speaker 4: concerned because women make between three hundred and nine hundred

214
00:13:55,960 --> 00:13:59,240
Speaker 4: dollars per year. That's not a lot in case you

215
00:13:59,280 --> 00:14:04,400
Speaker 4: were wondering, And she said, librarians, you know, we aren't

216
00:14:04,440 --> 00:14:09,280
Speaker 4: considered like that valuable. Yet we write for six to

217
00:14:09,320 --> 00:14:12,200
Speaker 4: seven hours a day. We have to know multiple language

218
00:14:12,400 --> 00:14:16,640
Speaker 4: and quote understand the relation of all arts and sciences

219
00:14:16,679 --> 00:14:21,640
Speaker 4: to each other, and must have a minute acquaintance with geography, history, art,

220
00:14:21,960 --> 00:14:25,160
Speaker 4: and literature. And she said, in order to avoid just

221
00:14:25,720 --> 00:14:30,200
Speaker 4: exhaustion and break down humans, says, I mean, we just

222
00:14:30,240 --> 00:14:32,080
Speaker 4: have to make sure we sleep and we eat well.

223
00:14:32,360 --> 00:14:35,320
Speaker 4: And I also recommend a two to three mile walk every.

224
00:14:35,160 --> 00:14:38,720
Speaker 6: Day, which, hey, listeners, Kristen, if you can figure out

225
00:14:38,760 --> 00:14:40,760
Speaker 6: how to do all of this stuff in a day,

226
00:14:41,040 --> 00:14:43,960
Speaker 6: let me know, because I don't see how you can

227
00:14:44,040 --> 00:14:45,160
Speaker 6: have all of these things.

228
00:14:45,280 --> 00:14:48,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, we do a lot. This is more than that.

229
00:14:48,680 --> 00:14:51,160
Speaker 4: And one thing that came to mind when I was

230
00:14:51,200 --> 00:14:55,800
Speaker 4: reading Hwans's account of having to understand the interrelatedness of

231
00:14:55,840 --> 00:14:59,760
Speaker 4: all those different subject matters knowing all these languages is

232
00:15:01,160 --> 00:15:04,680
Speaker 4: the comedy from the nineteen fifties called Desk Set, which

233
00:15:04,760 --> 00:15:07,520
Speaker 4: is on Netflix listeners, and it's fantastic if you haven't

234
00:15:07,520 --> 00:15:11,000
Speaker 4: seen it. It stars Katherine Hepburn and she is the

235
00:15:11,040 --> 00:15:14,480
Speaker 4: head of this team of reference librarians and they were

236
00:15:14,560 --> 00:15:20,120
Speaker 4: essentially human Googles because computers did not exist. And these

237
00:15:20,160 --> 00:15:24,640
Speaker 4: women are brilliant because essentially their job is to answer

238
00:15:24,680 --> 00:15:29,200
Speaker 4: telephones of you know, people in the building needing to

239
00:15:29,240 --> 00:15:32,880
Speaker 4: know answers to their questions and like really esoteric kind

240
00:15:32,880 --> 00:15:34,800
Speaker 4: of stuff, and these women would just.

241
00:15:35,000 --> 00:15:37,760
Speaker 1: Rattle it off immediately because.

242
00:15:37,400 --> 00:15:42,080
Speaker 4: They knew all of these subject matters they're brilliant. So

243
00:15:43,200 --> 00:15:46,920
Speaker 4: going back to eighteen ninety one, I mean humans and

244
00:15:47,040 --> 00:15:50,280
Speaker 4: her cohorts were in a way like human computers.

245
00:15:50,960 --> 00:15:54,880
Speaker 6: Yeah, and so you know, it sounds like with Hwans's

246
00:15:55,040 --> 00:15:58,120
Speaker 6: argument saying we're not paid enough and yet we do

247
00:15:58,480 --> 00:16:01,560
Speaker 6: all of this stuff, which is clearly being I have

248
00:16:01,640 --> 00:16:03,640
Speaker 6: to be brilliant, I have to work really hard, I

249
00:16:03,680 --> 00:16:05,760
Speaker 6: have to be on all the time I'm.

250
00:16:05,360 --> 00:16:06,280
Speaker 1: Doing all of this work.

251
00:16:06,800 --> 00:16:11,120
Speaker 6: That sounds like an argument for a professional field. It

252
00:16:11,160 --> 00:16:15,080
Speaker 6: does not sound like an argument for a service oriented occupation.

253
00:16:15,600 --> 00:16:19,240
Speaker 6: And I'm not in any way disparaging service industry work.

254
00:16:19,280 --> 00:16:22,760
Speaker 6: But what I'm saying is that librarianship is strange and

255
00:16:22,800 --> 00:16:26,320
Speaker 6: that it exists in that sort of weird twilight area,

256
00:16:26,480 --> 00:16:31,880
Speaker 6: that gray area between professionalism and well in perception at least,

257
00:16:31,920 --> 00:16:36,000
Speaker 6: and in pay, between professionalism and service industry.

258
00:16:36,640 --> 00:16:42,680
Speaker 4: And it's understandable that if those overworked and underpaid women

259
00:16:42,840 --> 00:16:47,400
Speaker 4: at that time wanted to climb the very limited ranks,

260
00:16:48,240 --> 00:16:52,560
Speaker 4: they would remain unmarried. It was really only the spinsters

261
00:16:52,960 --> 00:16:54,040
Speaker 4: who could succeed.

262
00:16:54,480 --> 00:16:56,920
Speaker 1: So by nineteen hundred to nineteen oh.

263
00:16:56,960 --> 00:17:03,120
Speaker 4: Five, the prudish, withdrawn life lady librarian stereotype was firmly entrenched.

264
00:17:03,400 --> 00:17:05,119
Speaker 1: It took no time at all.

265
00:17:05,320 --> 00:17:08,760
Speaker 6: Well yeah, and I mean keep in mind this earrow

266
00:17:08,880 --> 00:17:13,879
Speaker 6: burrows that's happening right here, because women, socially and a

267
00:17:13,880 --> 00:17:16,360
Speaker 6: lot of times according to the rules of the company,

268
00:17:16,800 --> 00:17:18,080
Speaker 6: granted retirement libraries.

269
00:17:18,119 --> 00:17:19,800
Speaker 1: But once you got.

270
00:17:19,560 --> 00:17:22,600
Speaker 6: Married, you typically couldn't hold a job anymore. You were

271
00:17:22,760 --> 00:17:25,560
Speaker 6: expected to return to your home and cook for your

272
00:17:25,640 --> 00:17:28,280
Speaker 6: husband and whatever whatever, be a housewife, exactly like it

273
00:17:28,359 --> 00:17:34,680
Speaker 6: was with teaching, exactly. And so the women who remained

274
00:17:34,720 --> 00:17:37,440
Speaker 6: in the profession and wanted to stay dedicated, wanted to

275
00:17:37,520 --> 00:17:40,919
Speaker 6: rise through the ranks, didn't want to leave having a

276
00:17:41,040 --> 00:17:45,360
Speaker 6: job that they loved, presumably. Well, of course, they were

277
00:17:46,160 --> 00:17:48,760
Speaker 6: then considered spinsters because they weren't married. And so it's

278
00:17:48,800 --> 00:17:51,040
Speaker 6: just like a cycle of like, well, wait, that society

279
00:17:51,080 --> 00:17:52,960
Speaker 6: is creating this trap, and then you're.

280
00:17:52,840 --> 00:17:54,160
Speaker 1: Punishing women for it.

281
00:17:54,240 --> 00:17:58,680
Speaker 6: You're punishing women for being the undesirable, crotchety spinsters, when

282
00:17:58,680 --> 00:18:02,280
Speaker 6: in reality, if they had wanted to keep their job,

283
00:18:02,400 --> 00:18:03,480
Speaker 6: they can't get married.

284
00:18:04,080 --> 00:18:07,600
Speaker 4: Yeah, and hence we fast forward to It's a wonderful life.

285
00:18:08,000 --> 00:18:12,480
Speaker 4: And if George Bailey hadn't married Mary, she would have

286
00:18:12,520 --> 00:18:17,720
Speaker 4: become that spinster librarian. That was her punishment. I remember

287
00:18:17,720 --> 00:18:19,320
Speaker 4: watching that as a kid and being like, but I

288
00:18:19,520 --> 00:18:24,080
Speaker 4: like librarians. Huh, she's so scary. Why she's so scary.

289
00:18:24,359 --> 00:18:25,359
Speaker 1: I'm gonna knit something.

290
00:18:26,160 --> 00:18:28,280
Speaker 6: It's the table's returning conger.

291
00:18:28,560 --> 00:18:30,880
Speaker 1: You've never seen. It's a wonderful life. I've never seen.

292
00:18:30,920 --> 00:18:32,080
Speaker 1: It's a wonderful life.

293
00:18:32,200 --> 00:18:34,960
Speaker 4: Okay, listeners, and case you're relatively new to the podcast,

294
00:18:35,440 --> 00:18:39,560
Speaker 4: my pop cultural knowledge spans from about like nineteen forty

295
00:18:39,600 --> 00:18:40,920
Speaker 4: to nineteen sixty.

296
00:18:41,720 --> 00:18:43,399
Speaker 1: I almost just inhaled my water.

297
00:18:47,600 --> 00:18:50,320
Speaker 4: You've still got a lot on me.

298
00:18:50,520 --> 00:18:55,960
Speaker 6: Yeah, well yeah, my nineties witch comedies or dramas whatever.

299
00:18:57,320 --> 00:19:00,520
Speaker 4: Although I'm finally watching Buffy the Vampires lare, I feel

300
00:19:00,520 --> 00:19:01,680
Speaker 4: like I'm really.

301
00:19:01,560 --> 00:19:04,119
Speaker 1: Reclaiming my youth, my lost youth.

302
00:19:04,240 --> 00:19:04,480
Speaker 6: Good.

303
00:19:05,000 --> 00:19:09,880
Speaker 4: So, by the nineteen thirties, librarianship was ninety percent female

304
00:19:09,880 --> 00:19:14,439
Speaker 4: and second only to public school teaching as the most

305
00:19:14,720 --> 00:19:16,800
Speaker 4: feminized job in America.

306
00:19:17,000 --> 00:19:20,040
Speaker 6: Yes, basically, women could be teachers, librarians, or nurses.

307
00:19:19,800 --> 00:19:23,160
Speaker 4: Or secretaries or secretaries until they got married, in which

308
00:19:23,200 --> 00:19:26,520
Speaker 4: case sometimes by law, they had to quit their jobs.

309
00:19:26,640 --> 00:19:29,240
Speaker 1: Yeah. So womaning is great.

310
00:19:29,560 --> 00:19:32,440
Speaker 4: Yeah, but well, next up we're going to talk about

311
00:19:32,480 --> 00:19:35,159
Speaker 4: some amazing women who are like, Okay, I see you

312
00:19:35,400 --> 00:19:39,240
Speaker 4: cultural confines, and I will raise you my brain, my

313
00:19:39,440 --> 00:19:48,280
Speaker 4: library code.

314
00:19:50,880 --> 00:19:53,280
Speaker 6: So in our last episode, which we're not going to

315
00:19:53,359 --> 00:19:57,320
Speaker 6: rehash every reason why Dewey is super creepy, Melville Dewey

316
00:19:57,359 --> 00:20:01,520
Speaker 6: the father of modern librarianship. But despite the fact that

317
00:20:01,600 --> 00:20:06,560
Speaker 6: he was a creep, he did draw so many women

318
00:20:06,680 --> 00:20:09,760
Speaker 6: into the profession. He was the one who really sparked

319
00:20:09,800 --> 00:20:15,840
Speaker 6: the feminization of librarianship. And again, despite his general shadiness,

320
00:20:16,880 --> 00:20:20,639
Speaker 6: because he trained so many women and he expected such

321
00:20:20,760 --> 00:20:26,200
Speaker 6: brilliance and hard work and efficiency, robotic efficiency, he did

322
00:20:26,280 --> 00:20:29,760
Speaker 6: have some pretty brilliant women emerge from his teaching.

323
00:20:30,359 --> 00:20:34,040
Speaker 4: So we wanted to highlight three of them, starting with

324
00:20:34,560 --> 00:20:39,399
Speaker 4: Mary Salome Cutler, who became a head cataloger at the

325
00:20:39,440 --> 00:20:42,760
Speaker 4: Columbia Library in eighteen eighty nine. And that's a pretty

326
00:20:42,760 --> 00:20:48,480
Speaker 4: big deal considering how Columbia University was all men at

327
00:20:48,480 --> 00:20:51,920
Speaker 4: the time. Now, eighteen eighty nine was also the year

328
00:20:52,080 --> 00:20:57,080
Speaker 4: that Dewey resigned from Columbia University because they were like Dewey.

329
00:20:57,160 --> 00:20:58,840
Speaker 1: We don't want all these women around.

330
00:20:59,320 --> 00:21:03,400
Speaker 4: So Cutler had to leave her job, and she followed

331
00:21:03,400 --> 00:21:08,520
Speaker 4: Dewey actually too his newly established New York State Library School,

332
00:21:08,640 --> 00:21:11,200
Speaker 4: and I want to say that she was actually in

333
00:21:11,240 --> 00:21:16,560
Speaker 4: his very first class. And in eighteen ninety three she

334
00:21:16,840 --> 00:21:22,080
Speaker 4: chaired the American Library Association's committee to build the model

335
00:21:22,200 --> 00:21:25,920
Speaker 4: library for the World's Columbian Exposition. And that doesn't sound

336
00:21:25,960 --> 00:21:29,040
Speaker 4: like a big deal, perhaps to modern ears.

337
00:21:28,840 --> 00:21:31,040
Speaker 1: But it was quite a big deal. It was a

338
00:21:31,080 --> 00:21:31,600
Speaker 1: big deal.

339
00:21:32,000 --> 00:21:36,439
Speaker 6: The exposition was where you showed off new advancements and

340
00:21:36,520 --> 00:21:40,640
Speaker 6: innovations and peered into what might be in the future.

341
00:21:41,000 --> 00:21:43,200
Speaker 1: Shelves of books look at it.

342
00:21:43,760 --> 00:21:47,880
Speaker 4: But it was a pretty controversial move because Dewey was like, dudes,

343
00:21:49,000 --> 00:21:52,679
Speaker 4: I want Cutler to had this committee, and they were.

344
00:21:52,560 --> 00:21:56,760
Speaker 1: Like, d Dewey, but we hate girls. Look at the

345
00:21:56,800 --> 00:21:59,080
Speaker 1: sign it says no girls allowed. And Due was like,

346
00:21:59,280 --> 00:22:01,960
Speaker 1: I only likes I'm leaving this treehouse.

347
00:22:02,600 --> 00:22:04,560
Speaker 6: And then the second woman we wanted to highlight is

348
00:22:04,640 --> 00:22:05,680
Speaker 6: Mary Wright Plumber.

349
00:22:05,880 --> 00:22:08,720
Speaker 1: She helped establish the Pratt Institute's.

350
00:22:08,200 --> 00:22:13,520
Speaker 6: Free Library and pioneered library children's rooms, among of course

351
00:22:13,600 --> 00:22:17,160
Speaker 6: a lot of other amazing stuff, and became the American

352
00:22:17,200 --> 00:22:19,680
Speaker 6: Library Association president in nineteen fifteen.

353
00:22:20,000 --> 00:22:25,400
Speaker 4: And even though she was one of Dewey's earliest students, plumber,

354
00:22:25,880 --> 00:22:27,640
Speaker 4: as we talked about in the previous episode.

355
00:22:27,680 --> 00:22:30,960
Speaker 1: When she became ALA President, she was.

356
00:22:30,960 --> 00:22:33,399
Speaker 4: Like, Okay, well, now that I'm in a position of power,

357
00:22:33,800 --> 00:22:35,520
Speaker 4: guess what, Dewey.

358
00:22:36,280 --> 00:22:38,679
Speaker 1: I'm not gonna I'm not gonna meet with you. Yeah no,

359
00:22:38,960 --> 00:22:39,640
Speaker 1: be it out of here.

360
00:22:39,840 --> 00:22:42,480
Speaker 6: Yeah, you guys goes in another episode if you haven't.

361
00:22:43,359 --> 00:22:46,399
Speaker 6: And then we have to talk about Katherine Sharp, Catherine L. Sharp,

362
00:22:47,040 --> 00:22:50,199
Speaker 6: who was such a whiz. When Dewey was asked for

363
00:22:50,240 --> 00:22:53,600
Speaker 6: the best man to start a library program at Chicago's

364
00:22:53,720 --> 00:22:56,800
Speaker 6: Armor Institute, Dewey said that the best man is a woman,

365
00:22:56,840 --> 00:23:00,360
Speaker 6: which to me sounds like such a romantic comedy line,

366
00:23:00,640 --> 00:23:03,159
Speaker 6: except that Dewey is super creepy and I would not

367
00:23:03,200 --> 00:23:05,200
Speaker 6: want to see a character based on him in a

368
00:23:05,240 --> 00:23:09,680
Speaker 6: rom comm And Sharp actually became director of the University

369
00:23:09,680 --> 00:23:14,879
Speaker 6: of Illinois's library program and the university's library And you

370
00:23:14,920 --> 00:23:18,120
Speaker 6: know that doesn't sound like, oh okay, university librarian great,

371
00:23:18,320 --> 00:23:21,520
Speaker 6: but no, like, there were cast systems in place almost

372
00:23:21,560 --> 00:23:25,280
Speaker 6: for librarians, and university or academic libraries were seen as

373
00:23:25,320 --> 00:23:28,399
Speaker 6: such a big deal compared to your smaller local libraries.

374
00:23:28,480 --> 00:23:32,359
Speaker 4: Well in, University of Illinois apparently still has one of

375
00:23:32,400 --> 00:23:37,800
Speaker 4: the most renowned library science programs in the US. So, oh,

376
00:23:37,960 --> 00:23:40,119
Speaker 4: catherinell Sharp did a good job because she was their

377
00:23:40,520 --> 00:23:44,399
Speaker 4: first director and she set up everything being a dual

378
00:23:44,440 --> 00:23:48,520
Speaker 4: director of an academic program and a library.

379
00:23:48,720 --> 00:23:49,040
Speaker 1: Yeah.

380
00:23:49,119 --> 00:23:51,560
Speaker 6: Well, she did such a good job that she actually

381
00:23:51,640 --> 00:23:54,360
Speaker 6: retired in nineteen oh seven because quote, it was crushing

382
00:23:54,400 --> 00:23:55,880
Speaker 6: the human element.

383
00:23:55,880 --> 00:23:58,959
Speaker 1: Out of her life. Yeah, so she wrote that in

384
00:23:59,000 --> 00:24:00,720
Speaker 1: her resignation Life Our Lord.

385
00:24:00,920 --> 00:24:03,040
Speaker 6: Yeah, so that's burnout. So then I recommend you go

386
00:24:03,080 --> 00:24:06,520
Speaker 6: listen to our episode with Emily Airis of bost Up

387
00:24:06,600 --> 00:24:07,400
Speaker 6: on Burnout.

388
00:24:07,680 --> 00:24:11,120
Speaker 4: Well, I mean, but that just goes to show what

389
00:24:11,520 --> 00:24:15,480
Speaker 4: Caroline Hewans was talking about in eighteen ninety one, like,

390
00:24:15,560 --> 00:24:20,359
Speaker 4: we are doing so much and catherinell Sharp surely didn't

391
00:24:20,400 --> 00:24:22,840
Speaker 4: have time for a two to three mile walk every day.

392
00:24:22,840 --> 00:24:23,520
Speaker 6: No, who does.

393
00:24:24,800 --> 00:24:29,639
Speaker 4: So there were these women who were so dedicated to

394
00:24:29,800 --> 00:24:35,160
Speaker 4: the job and really passionate about this work and obviously innovative,

395
00:24:35,320 --> 00:24:36,840
Speaker 4: just as innovative.

396
00:24:36,800 --> 00:24:41,840
Speaker 1: As Dewey was. And all of our.

397
00:24:41,600 --> 00:24:44,359
Speaker 4: Librarian history that we've talked about, even in the last

398
00:24:44,400 --> 00:24:50,120
Speaker 4: episode and up till now, has been exclusively about white folks. Yeah,

399
00:24:50,160 --> 00:24:56,080
Speaker 4: and even today the profession is largely white. But you

400
00:24:56,080 --> 00:24:59,040
Speaker 4: know who else was trailblazing as all of this was

401
00:24:59,080 --> 00:25:03,320
Speaker 4: going on, even though they were very much shoved to

402
00:25:03,400 --> 00:25:03,919
Speaker 4: the side.

403
00:25:04,280 --> 00:25:05,480
Speaker 1: Or African Americans.

404
00:25:06,040 --> 00:25:08,719
Speaker 6: Yeah, that's right. There is such a rich history around

405
00:25:08,760 --> 00:25:13,119
Speaker 6: African American library culture in this country, but it tends to,

406
00:25:14,560 --> 00:25:17,679
Speaker 6: like so many things around diversity in this country, just

407
00:25:17,720 --> 00:25:18,920
Speaker 6: not be discussed as much.

408
00:25:19,320 --> 00:25:19,600
Speaker 1: Yeah.

409
00:25:19,680 --> 00:25:24,760
Speaker 4: So Philadelphia is home to both the Reading Room Society,

410
00:25:24,920 --> 00:25:29,320
Speaker 4: which was the first social library for African Americans, which

411
00:25:29,400 --> 00:25:34,560
Speaker 4: was established in eighteen twenty eight, and the Female Literary Society,

412
00:25:35,000 --> 00:25:37,320
Speaker 4: which was established in eighteen thirty one, which was the

413
00:25:37,359 --> 00:25:40,000
Speaker 4: first social library for black women.

414
00:25:40,400 --> 00:25:43,520
Speaker 1: So Philadelphia got it going on right.

415
00:25:44,400 --> 00:25:47,080
Speaker 6: Which just Philadelphia just makes me want to start singing

416
00:25:47,080 --> 00:25:48,000
Speaker 6: the fresh Print song.

417
00:25:48,119 --> 00:25:50,280
Speaker 1: Me too, I got to start it, I know, I

418
00:25:50,320 --> 00:25:51,440
Speaker 1: held back. I did too.

419
00:25:51,680 --> 00:25:55,440
Speaker 6: I did two conger where I feel like we're growing up, although.

420
00:25:55,119 --> 00:25:56,960
Speaker 4: I really want to grown up from our fresh Prince,

421
00:25:57,840 --> 00:25:59,000
Speaker 4: Fresh Prince days.

422
00:26:00,000 --> 00:26:04,560
Speaker 6: But it wasn't until nineteen oh four that in Hnderson, Kentucky,

423
00:26:04,600 --> 00:26:07,600
Speaker 6: we get a one room annex opening at the rear

424
00:26:07,720 --> 00:26:09,080
Speaker 6: of the eighth Street.

425
00:26:08,880 --> 00:26:11,200
Speaker 1: Colored School to serve as a library.

426
00:26:11,440 --> 00:26:15,520
Speaker 6: This is the first structure built specifically to offer public

427
00:26:15,560 --> 00:26:17,720
Speaker 6: library services to African.

428
00:26:17,320 --> 00:26:24,000
Speaker 4: Americans, whereas the first white essentially public library tax supported

429
00:26:24,080 --> 00:26:28,040
Speaker 4: library had been established all the way back in eighteen

430
00:26:28,160 --> 00:26:32,920
Speaker 4: thirty three, and you would have little kind of blacks

431
00:26:33,000 --> 00:26:36,880
Speaker 4: only library rooms popping up here and there that would

432
00:26:36,880 --> 00:26:40,439
Speaker 4: have been privately funded or funded through churches, but this

433
00:26:40,640 --> 00:26:45,080
Speaker 4: was the first one supported by public tax dollars. And

434
00:26:45,440 --> 00:26:50,440
Speaker 4: the thing is as lofty as public libraries original goals

435
00:26:50,520 --> 00:26:54,560
Speaker 4: were in terms of enriching the entire community, what they

436
00:26:54,600 --> 00:26:58,240
Speaker 4: really meant at the time was the white community.

437
00:26:57,840 --> 00:27:00,320
Speaker 1: Because libraries were segregated.

438
00:27:00,440 --> 00:27:02,760
Speaker 6: Yeah, and so what do you do when you're unwelcome

439
00:27:03,000 --> 00:27:06,760
Speaker 6: in essentially a public facility that says we don't want

440
00:27:06,800 --> 00:27:08,560
Speaker 6: you or won't serve you.

441
00:27:08,560 --> 00:27:11,439
Speaker 1: You start your own organizations.

442
00:27:11,480 --> 00:27:15,040
Speaker 6: And so you have Molly Lee Houston, who established a

443
00:27:15,119 --> 00:27:18,320
Speaker 6: library for African Americans in Raleigh, North Carolina.

444
00:27:18,400 --> 00:27:21,000
Speaker 4: And this would have been happening around the same time

445
00:27:21,520 --> 00:27:25,679
Speaker 4: as women's clubs popping up in African American communities and

446
00:27:25,880 --> 00:27:31,000
Speaker 4: progressive era ideals of lifting as you climb and providing

447
00:27:31,040 --> 00:27:36,640
Speaker 4: these kinds of services and particularly literacy for this community

448
00:27:36,920 --> 00:27:42,440
Speaker 4: that was coming out of the grips of slavery. So

449
00:27:42,840 --> 00:27:45,399
Speaker 4: fast forward to nineteen twenty eight, and we have the

450
00:27:45,440 --> 00:27:51,000
Speaker 4: West Virginia Supreme Court ruling that Charleston libraries cannot exclude

451
00:27:51,160 --> 00:27:54,880
Speaker 4: black patrons since as taxpayers.

452
00:27:54,440 --> 00:27:57,560
Speaker 1: They're equally entitled to library service.

453
00:27:58,040 --> 00:28:01,119
Speaker 4: But it wasn't until nineteen fifty fo were Supreme Court

454
00:28:01,240 --> 00:28:05,919
Speaker 4: ruling in Brown versus Board of Education that across the

455
00:28:06,000 --> 00:28:11,040
Speaker 4: country you have separate but equal being outlawed in those

456
00:28:11,119 --> 00:28:14,480
Speaker 4: public spaces like schools, but also libraries. We never hear

457
00:28:14,640 --> 00:28:16,720
Speaker 4: about civil rights and libraries.

458
00:28:16,760 --> 00:28:19,200
Speaker 6: I feel like, yeah, I know, people just think libraries

459
00:28:19,240 --> 00:28:23,280
Speaker 6: are nothing but super quiet spaces where nothing ever happens.

460
00:28:23,320 --> 00:28:26,840
Speaker 6: But so much happened, right, I mean, they became another

461
00:28:27,040 --> 00:28:31,440
Speaker 6: yet another site of civil rights sit ins for integration,

462
00:28:31,680 --> 00:28:36,040
Speaker 6: like integration in reality, not just the legal dismantling of segregation,

463
00:28:36,280 --> 00:28:42,120
Speaker 6: actually legitimately integrating libraries. In nineteen sixty three, for instance,

464
00:28:42,160 --> 00:28:44,600
Speaker 6: a white mob attacked two black men who were just

465
00:28:44,960 --> 00:28:47,840
Speaker 6: trying to get library cards in Aniston, Alabama.

466
00:28:48,400 --> 00:28:51,400
Speaker 4: I read that and just wanted to throw my laptop

467
00:28:52,000 --> 00:28:57,040
Speaker 4: out the window. I mean, because if like that crystallizes

468
00:28:57,400 --> 00:29:01,960
Speaker 4: so much like the level of deep sea racist hatred,

469
00:29:02,360 --> 00:29:05,560
Speaker 4: that you would want to attack someone for getting a

470
00:29:05,920 --> 00:29:07,080
Speaker 4: library card.

471
00:29:07,880 --> 00:29:09,480
Speaker 1: Like it's horrifying.

472
00:29:10,640 --> 00:29:15,720
Speaker 4: So, not surprisingly these were sites of protests. But to

473
00:29:15,760 --> 00:29:19,600
Speaker 4: its credit, the American Library Association was on record as

474
00:29:19,720 --> 00:29:23,760
Speaker 4: pro integration. And I think it was actually in the

475
00:29:23,800 --> 00:29:27,360
Speaker 4: fifties that they held their first meeting in the South,

476
00:29:27,400 --> 00:29:31,280
Speaker 4: because initially they had been kind of nervous about racial

477
00:29:31,360 --> 00:29:32,760
Speaker 4: tensions in the South.

478
00:29:33,920 --> 00:29:38,600
Speaker 1: But they amended their Library Bill of Rights, which how

479
00:29:38,640 --> 00:29:40,600
Speaker 1: cute is that? That's really sweet?

480
00:29:41,160 --> 00:29:43,720
Speaker 4: But they amended the Library Bill of Rights in the

481
00:29:43,760 --> 00:29:49,480
Speaker 4: early sixties to codify its stance saying like, you cannot

482
00:29:49,520 --> 00:29:54,640
Speaker 4: exclude people on the basis of race from entering these

483
00:29:54,760 --> 00:29:56,360
Speaker 4: places of public learning.

484
00:29:56,960 --> 00:29:59,600
Speaker 6: Yeah, and I mean not everyone was terrible. You have

485
00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:02,880
Speaker 6: during the civil rights era, twenty five freedom libraries that

486
00:30:02,920 --> 00:30:07,760
Speaker 6: were established in Mississippi by volunteer civil rights advocating librarians.

487
00:30:08,000 --> 00:30:12,400
Speaker 4: Talk about some superheroes, and anyone listening who knows more

488
00:30:12,440 --> 00:30:17,120
Speaker 4: about these freedom libraries please write to us mom stuff

489
00:30:17,120 --> 00:30:21,200
Speaker 4: at houstuffworks dot com. Because this was we found this

490
00:30:21,280 --> 00:30:26,560
Speaker 4: information on the American Library Association's website, so to me,

491
00:30:26,800 --> 00:30:29,240
Speaker 4: that means it's legit. But when I started doing more

492
00:30:29,280 --> 00:30:32,560
Speaker 4: research trying to find out more about freedom libraries, because hello,

493
00:30:32,640 --> 00:30:35,600
Speaker 4: how cool? Is that I couldn't find anything else because

494
00:30:35,640 --> 00:30:39,640
Speaker 4: so much of our popular civil rights history is focused

495
00:30:39,680 --> 00:30:43,000
Speaker 4: on desegregating schools.

496
00:30:42,960 --> 00:30:43,720
Speaker 1: And things like that.

497
00:30:43,840 --> 00:30:47,000
Speaker 4: So if anyone knows anything, I want to know because

498
00:30:47,040 --> 00:30:50,560
Speaker 4: I just want to be able to give those librarians

499
00:30:50,600 --> 00:30:51,280
Speaker 4: their druthers.

500
00:30:51,680 --> 00:30:54,720
Speaker 6: Yeah, and what is so fabulous about this is that

501
00:30:54,880 --> 00:30:58,480
Speaker 6: when we talk about the history of African Americans, when

502
00:30:58,480 --> 00:31:01,320
Speaker 6: we talk about the history of black people in this country, so.

503
00:31:01,400 --> 00:31:04,880
Speaker 1: Much is lost. We don't have some of the.

504
00:31:04,880 --> 00:31:08,240
Speaker 6: Names the amount of names that we do from pioneering

505
00:31:08,400 --> 00:31:11,920
Speaker 6: white people, even pioneering white women. But we are so

506
00:31:12,080 --> 00:31:14,520
Speaker 6: happy to be able to give you a few names

507
00:31:14,520 --> 00:31:17,960
Speaker 6: of some badass black librarians who led the way.

508
00:31:18,480 --> 00:31:23,960
Speaker 4: So in nineteen twenty three, you have bibliotherapy pioneer Sadie

509
00:31:23,960 --> 00:31:28,720
Speaker 4: Peterson Delaney, who establishes the library in the Veterans' Hospital

510
00:31:29,040 --> 00:31:32,520
Speaker 4: in Tuskegee, Alabama, for recuperating black soldiers.

511
00:31:32,880 --> 00:31:34,880
Speaker 1: And I had not heard the term.

512
00:31:34,760 --> 00:31:40,760
Speaker 4: Bibliotherapy before, Caroline, but it makes total sense. So Delaney

513
00:31:41,440 --> 00:31:45,960
Speaker 4: realized that there are therapeutic benefits to reading, and she

514
00:31:46,040 --> 00:31:50,880
Speaker 4: specifically sought out African American focused reading material at the time,

515
00:31:51,000 --> 00:31:52,480
Speaker 4: which in nineteen twenty.

516
00:31:52,240 --> 00:31:56,400
Speaker 1: Three was a bit of a task, but she did

517
00:31:56,440 --> 00:31:57,520
Speaker 1: it because.

518
00:31:57,520 --> 00:32:03,840
Speaker 4: She knew how important haveing that inspirational literature would be

519
00:32:04,000 --> 00:32:07,440
Speaker 4: for these soldiers. Who I mean, they're coming back home,

520
00:32:08,160 --> 00:32:12,000
Speaker 4: they're injured, but they're coming back to a prejudice society,

521
00:32:12,040 --> 00:32:15,120
Speaker 4: even after they fought for their country.

522
00:32:16,040 --> 00:32:16,240
Speaker 5: Yeah.

523
00:32:16,240 --> 00:32:19,160
Speaker 6: And another incredible woman carving out of space for African

524
00:32:19,200 --> 00:32:23,000
Speaker 6: American readers is Vivian G. Harsh, who in nineteen thirty

525
00:32:23,000 --> 00:32:27,280
Speaker 6: two was Chicago's first black librarian and she established a

526
00:32:27,400 --> 00:32:31,800
Speaker 6: world renowned research collection of African American history and literature

527
00:32:32,000 --> 00:32:36,600
Speaker 6: that is still at the Chicago Library. It's still in existence,

528
00:32:36,840 --> 00:32:42,360
Speaker 6: and according to a biographical source on Vivian Harsh, this

529
00:32:42,600 --> 00:32:46,800
Speaker 6: library that she established became quote a mecca for literary

530
00:32:46,840 --> 00:32:51,400
Speaker 6: and cultural icons of the period, including Richard Wright, Lanston Hughes, Zorain,

531
00:32:51,400 --> 00:32:55,120
Speaker 6: Neil Hirston, and Gwendolyn Brooks, some of whom even contributed

532
00:32:55,160 --> 00:32:56,680
Speaker 6: manuscripts to the institution.

533
00:32:57,040 --> 00:32:57,880
Speaker 1: And Vivian G.

534
00:32:58,040 --> 00:33:00,560
Speaker 4: Harsh is someone who we could go go back and

535
00:33:00,600 --> 00:33:05,240
Speaker 4: do an entire podcast on because she's one of the

536
00:33:05,240 --> 00:33:10,480
Speaker 4: most important librarians in American history. Because she made it

537
00:33:10,560 --> 00:33:16,560
Speaker 4: her mission to essentially preserve African American culture, and is

538
00:33:17,040 --> 00:33:22,800
Speaker 4: considered one of the reasons why the uh like Chicago

539
00:33:22,920 --> 00:33:26,840
Speaker 4: Black Renaissance happened because there were she essentially like set

540
00:33:26,920 --> 00:33:30,200
Speaker 4: up this whole repository, this cultural center, saying look here,

541
00:33:30,680 --> 00:33:33,240
Speaker 4: here we are, here is here all of the things

542
00:33:33,280 --> 00:33:35,920
Speaker 4: that we've produced, here's our history, all those things that

543
00:33:36,400 --> 00:33:39,920
Speaker 4: otherwise would have been marginalized or completely lost.

544
00:33:40,560 --> 00:33:42,680
Speaker 1: And not too far away from Vivian G.

545
00:33:42,840 --> 00:33:47,040
Speaker 4: Harsh in Detroit, a little bit later, you have Clara

546
00:33:47,080 --> 00:33:51,200
Speaker 4: Stanton Jones, who became the first woman and African American

547
00:33:51,320 --> 00:33:56,720
Speaker 4: to serve as director of Detroit's Public Library, despite white

548
00:33:56,760 --> 00:34:00,440
Speaker 4: public protests. They're like, no, how could I, how gonna

549
00:34:00,560 --> 00:34:04,800
Speaker 4: an African American woman be serving in this role? But

550
00:34:04,920 --> 00:34:09,200
Speaker 4: thankfully she was able to claim her post and later

551
00:34:09,280 --> 00:34:12,839
Speaker 4: went on to become the first African American president of

552
00:34:12,880 --> 00:34:17,360
Speaker 4: the American Library Association, And in nineteen seventy eight, she

553
00:34:17,520 --> 00:34:21,120
Speaker 4: was appointed by President Jimmy Carter to the National Commission

554
00:34:21,120 --> 00:34:25,360
Speaker 4: on Libraries and Information Science, where she served until nineteen

555
00:34:25,440 --> 00:34:25,920
Speaker 4: eighty two.

556
00:34:26,680 --> 00:34:29,680
Speaker 1: So, in other words, she was a big deal.

557
00:34:30,520 --> 00:34:35,040
Speaker 6: Yeah, and I love that. When MSS magazine in two

558
00:34:35,040 --> 00:34:39,320
Speaker 6: thousand and three was recognizing the contributions of incredible women

559
00:34:39,440 --> 00:34:44,959
Speaker 6: to this country. They looked to Carla Diane Hayden, who

560
00:34:45,480 --> 00:34:49,879
Speaker 6: was the second African American president of the ALA, and

561
00:34:49,960 --> 00:34:52,960
Speaker 6: she basically her reaction was basically like who me? And

562
00:34:53,040 --> 00:34:56,400
Speaker 6: she told the magazine, when people ask what's unusual about

563
00:34:56,400 --> 00:34:58,520
Speaker 6: me being the ALA's president, the first thing that comes

564
00:34:58,560 --> 00:35:01,160
Speaker 6: to mind is that I'm African American. But really what's

565
00:35:01,200 --> 00:35:04,120
Speaker 6: more significant is that I'm a woman, Because even though

566
00:35:04,160 --> 00:35:08,279
Speaker 6: it's a female dominated field, most library directors are men.

567
00:35:08,719 --> 00:35:12,720
Speaker 4: And thus these two episodes have come full circle.

568
00:35:12,960 --> 00:35:16,440
Speaker 6: Yeah, and the hierarchy is still in place.

569
00:35:17,040 --> 00:35:23,160
Speaker 4: So we have all of these amazing female librarians throughout

570
00:35:23,160 --> 00:35:27,000
Speaker 4: the twentieth century, who I mean essentially are to thank

571
00:35:27,120 --> 00:35:28,520
Speaker 4: for our public.

572
00:35:28,320 --> 00:35:31,160
Speaker 1: Learning and literacy in a lot of ways.

573
00:35:30,880 --> 00:35:31,960
Speaker 6: And community building.

574
00:35:32,160 --> 00:35:37,480
Speaker 4: Absolutely, and they don't get nearly as much recognition as

575
00:35:37,480 --> 00:35:39,239
Speaker 4: they should because I feel like the only name that

576
00:35:39,280 --> 00:35:41,359
Speaker 4: we associate with libraries.

577
00:35:41,200 --> 00:35:42,160
Speaker 1: Is Melville Dewey.

578
00:35:42,719 --> 00:35:47,640
Speaker 4: And so I hope that this raises some awareness of

579
00:35:48,480 --> 00:35:52,319
Speaker 4: just what amazing women and men librarians are. But like

580
00:35:52,320 --> 00:35:56,680
Speaker 4: the women who really built the libraries from the ground.

581
00:35:56,400 --> 00:36:01,520
Speaker 6: Up, yeah, and who had so few positive expectations put

582
00:36:01,560 --> 00:36:02,080
Speaker 6: on them.

583
00:36:02,080 --> 00:36:16,680
Speaker 4: Yeah, and exceeded them to the moon and back. So

584
00:36:16,719 --> 00:36:18,879
Speaker 4: now we want to hear from you. Do you have

585
00:36:19,360 --> 00:36:21,480
Speaker 4: beloved librarians in your life?

586
00:36:21,600 --> 00:36:24,560
Speaker 1: Are you a librarian? We want to know all of

587
00:36:24,600 --> 00:36:25,880
Speaker 1: your library thoughts.

588
00:36:26,000 --> 00:36:29,000
Speaker 4: Mom Stuff at house stuffworks dot Com is our email address.

589
00:36:29,280 --> 00:36:31,520
Speaker 4: You can also tweet us at mom Stuff podcast or

590
00:36:31,560 --> 00:36:34,720
Speaker 4: messages on Facebook, and we've got a couple of messages

591
00:36:34,760 --> 00:36:39,840
Speaker 4: to share with you right now.

592
00:36:41,719 --> 00:36:43,560
Speaker 6: Okay, well, I have a letter here from Joshua in

593
00:36:43,560 --> 00:36:46,320
Speaker 6: response to our Queer Fashion episodes.

594
00:36:47,239 --> 00:36:48,800
Speaker 1: Joshua says, greetings.

595
00:36:48,360 --> 00:36:51,520
Speaker 6: From Sitting Bull College on the Standing Rock Lakota Indian

596
00:36:51,560 --> 00:36:55,560
Speaker 6: Reservation in fort Yates, North Dakota. I'm from another planes tribe,

597
00:36:55,560 --> 00:36:57,880
Speaker 6: but I'm here for an intensive summer program that trains

598
00:36:57,920 --> 00:37:00,840
Speaker 6: teachers and how to teach the Lakota and To languages.

599
00:37:01,480 --> 00:37:04,040
Speaker 6: First off, is everyone in Atlanta as cool as you too.

600
00:37:04,120 --> 00:37:06,279
Speaker 6: I've been listening to the podcast for years, and I

601
00:37:06,320 --> 00:37:09,719
Speaker 6: appreciate the sensitivity with which you address a variety of topics.

602
00:37:09,920 --> 00:37:12,480
Speaker 6: I usually can't bring myself to listen to white street

603
00:37:12,560 --> 00:37:14,920
Speaker 6: people discuss any of the minority groups I'm part of,

604
00:37:14,960 --> 00:37:18,319
Speaker 6: because they almost invariably wind up saying horribly offensive things,

605
00:37:18,360 --> 00:37:21,440
Speaker 6: even when they mean well. But I'm always seriously impressed

606
00:37:21,440 --> 00:37:23,839
Speaker 6: with what a great job y'all do. Thanks so much

607
00:37:23,880 --> 00:37:26,040
Speaker 6: for keeping me company on my recent twenty five hours

608
00:37:26,040 --> 00:37:28,480
Speaker 6: of driving from California to North Dakota. One of your

609
00:37:28,480 --> 00:37:31,800
Speaker 6: episodes prompted me to write in the Queer Fashion episode,

610
00:37:31,800 --> 00:37:34,520
Speaker 6: thanks so much for covering this topic. I've always wondered

611
00:37:34,560 --> 00:37:37,319
Speaker 6: why men's Western clothing was so much more boring than

612
00:37:37,360 --> 00:37:40,279
Speaker 6: what Western women wear, and I found it fascinating to

613
00:37:40,360 --> 00:37:42,560
Speaker 6: learn that it was the result of a deliberate social

614
00:37:42,640 --> 00:37:45,920
Speaker 6: movement to tone things down. But also I feel like

615
00:37:45,960 --> 00:37:48,840
Speaker 6: it's worth noting that this boring men's wear phenomenon is

616
00:37:48,960 --> 00:37:53,000
Speaker 6: not universal in Native American cultures. I see men wearing regalia,

617
00:37:53,120 --> 00:37:55,759
Speaker 6: ceremonial clothing, and every day wear that is just as

618
00:37:55,800 --> 00:37:56,560
Speaker 6: colorful as.

619
00:37:56,400 --> 00:37:57,160
Speaker 1: What women wear.

620
00:37:57,760 --> 00:38:01,040
Speaker 6: I'm a pow wow dancer and I also sowwer regalia.

621
00:38:01,120 --> 00:38:02,440
Speaker 1: There is definitely a pretty.

622
00:38:02,160 --> 00:38:05,800
Speaker 6: Strict gender binary enforce and I seriously cringe when outsiders

623
00:38:05,880 --> 00:38:09,320
Speaker 6: portray Native American cultures as some magic, gender free utopia.

624
00:38:09,800 --> 00:38:11,480
Speaker 6: But you'll see a lot of things that would be

625
00:38:11,520 --> 00:38:16,880
Speaker 6: stylistically off limits for Western men, long hair, dangly earrings, sequins,

626
00:38:16,920 --> 00:38:20,760
Speaker 6: shiny fabrics, and bright colors as standard styles and attire

627
00:38:20,840 --> 00:38:25,640
Speaker 6: in the powow arena. These styles are sometimes misinterpreted by outsiders,

628
00:38:25,680 --> 00:38:28,680
Speaker 6: but it's not uncommon for straight, macho powow guys to

629
00:38:28,680 --> 00:38:31,720
Speaker 6: wear pink regalia with sequins, for example, and think nothing

630
00:38:31,760 --> 00:38:35,000
Speaker 6: of it. Maybe something about different gender standards and different

631
00:38:35,000 --> 00:38:37,440
Speaker 6: cultures and what happens when they clash and come together

632
00:38:37,480 --> 00:38:40,200
Speaker 6: would be a good future topic. Two of the younger

633
00:38:40,239 --> 00:38:42,880
Speaker 6: boys in my powow family have attached pink scarves on

634
00:38:42,920 --> 00:38:45,480
Speaker 6: the belts of their powow regalia to support a loved

635
00:38:45,480 --> 00:38:48,000
Speaker 6: one who is a breast cancer survivor, which I find

636
00:38:48,080 --> 00:38:51,600
Speaker 6: very sweet. The bright colors coming together in the individual

637
00:38:51,640 --> 00:38:54,520
Speaker 6: and collective dancers for galia are an integral part of

638
00:38:54,560 --> 00:38:58,200
Speaker 6: the powow. So I'm glad we have defied this mainstream trend.

639
00:38:58,760 --> 00:38:59,960
Speaker 6: So thank you so much, Joshua.

640
00:39:00,000 --> 00:39:01,800
Speaker 1: But for writing in Well, I've.

641
00:39:01,680 --> 00:39:04,759
Speaker 4: Got a letter here from Nicole about our episode on

642
00:39:05,080 --> 00:39:09,440
Speaker 4: women in political campaigning, and she writes, I love your

643
00:39:09,440 --> 00:39:12,560
Speaker 4: podcast about women in politics. It really summed up a

644
00:39:12,560 --> 00:39:14,840
Speaker 4: lot of my feelings about where women have been placed

645
00:39:14,840 --> 00:39:17,879
Speaker 4: in campaigns in my struggles with that, I started out

646
00:39:17,920 --> 00:39:21,239
Speaker 4: wanting to be a media consultant or campaign manager in politics,

647
00:39:21,440 --> 00:39:24,120
Speaker 4: but while interning for a media consulting firm, I was

648
00:39:24,160 --> 00:39:28,480
Speaker 4: steered toward fundraising by my all male bosses. In the

649
00:39:28,520 --> 00:39:31,000
Speaker 4: city I worked in, all of the fundraisers were women,

650
00:39:31,280 --> 00:39:33,560
Speaker 4: and my boss has told me that to be a fundraiser,

651
00:39:33,800 --> 00:39:36,520
Speaker 4: you must be well dressed, and then they ranked the

652
00:39:36,600 --> 00:39:39,360
Speaker 4: fundraisers on their level of bitchiness.

653
00:39:39,840 --> 00:39:42,239
Speaker 1: This is one of the hundreds of stories I.

654
00:39:42,200 --> 00:39:46,480
Speaker 4: Could share about sexism in the campaign office. Since then,

655
00:39:46,520 --> 00:39:49,480
Speaker 4: I entered on a presidential political finance team and now

656
00:39:49,520 --> 00:39:52,160
Speaker 4: work full time at a political fundraising firm where I

657
00:39:52,200 --> 00:39:53,800
Speaker 4: worked for the governor of my state.

658
00:39:54,080 --> 00:39:56,040
Speaker 1: What Nicole impressive.

659
00:39:56,560 --> 00:39:59,080
Speaker 4: As you mentioned, in politics, it's important to have a

660
00:39:59,120 --> 00:40:00,520
Speaker 4: mentor to add kate for you.

661
00:40:01,000 --> 00:40:03,280
Speaker 1: This is really the only way to get the best jobs.

662
00:40:03,560 --> 00:40:06,239
Speaker 4: Most campaigns never post a job ad, but instead ask

663
00:40:06,320 --> 00:40:09,720
Speaker 4: their friends if they have anyone to recommend. Also, people

664
00:40:09,800 --> 00:40:13,399
Speaker 4: normally choose to mentor someone that they think is like them,

665
00:40:13,880 --> 00:40:16,120
Speaker 4: so it's a lot harder for women to be recommended

666
00:40:16,160 --> 00:40:18,719
Speaker 4: for the best jobs in other fields because they're so

667
00:40:18,880 --> 00:40:23,600
Speaker 4: concentrated in finance. Other factors that lead to women being

668
00:40:23,640 --> 00:40:27,560
Speaker 4: fundraisers is that they're the most abundant job, since candidates

669
00:40:27,600 --> 00:40:30,239
Speaker 4: always need more money. If a person doesn't know the

670
00:40:30,320 --> 00:40:32,480
Speaker 4: right people or have a mentor to get their resumes

671
00:40:32,520 --> 00:40:35,399
Speaker 4: passed around, then fundraising jobs are normally the only ones

672
00:40:35,440 --> 00:40:39,400
Speaker 4: posted on political jobs boards. In regard to why people

673
00:40:39,480 --> 00:40:42,760
Speaker 4: assume women are better suited for fundraising, something I've noticed

674
00:40:42,840 --> 00:40:46,040
Speaker 4: is that donors are nicer to women. We often spend

675
00:40:46,080 --> 00:40:48,120
Speaker 4: a lot of time calling people for money, and people

676
00:40:48,120 --> 00:40:51,200
Speaker 4: get irritated when they receive those calls. When you call

677
00:40:51,440 --> 00:40:55,800
Speaker 4: very cheerfully and sound as sweetly as possible, donors normally

678
00:40:55,840 --> 00:40:59,600
Speaker 4: won't yell at you. My bosses too badass women always

679
00:40:59,600 --> 00:41:01,600
Speaker 4: tell me to be as peppy as possible when dealing

680
00:41:01,640 --> 00:41:04,520
Speaker 4: with difficult clients. I have mail coworkers, and they get

681
00:41:04,600 --> 00:41:07,360
Speaker 4: yelled at more often than the women in my office.

682
00:41:07,640 --> 00:41:09,759
Speaker 4: I could go on and on about women and campaigns,

683
00:41:09,760 --> 00:41:11,200
Speaker 4: and specifically fundraising.

684
00:41:11,520 --> 00:41:12,879
Speaker 1: I hope my email makes sense.

685
00:41:12,920 --> 00:41:16,160
Speaker 4: As you mentioned, everyone in campaigns work crazy hours and

686
00:41:16,200 --> 00:41:19,799
Speaker 4: I am very sleeper deprived. Thanks for validating all of

687
00:41:19,800 --> 00:41:22,799
Speaker 4: my feelings about my industry and for your other episodes.

688
00:41:22,920 --> 00:41:27,160
Speaker 4: Get Me through hours of staring at Excel sheets. Well, Nicole,

689
00:41:27,440 --> 00:41:31,640
Speaker 4: thank you so much for your insight and more power

690
00:41:31,680 --> 00:41:35,080
Speaker 4: to you in that field because I can only imagine

691
00:41:35,080 --> 00:41:38,480
Speaker 4: that it is a toughie. So listeners, now, I want

692
00:41:38,480 --> 00:41:41,520
Speaker 4: to hear from you Mom. Stuff at HowStuffWorks dot com

693
00:41:41,600 --> 00:41:43,640
Speaker 4: is our email address and for links to all of

694
00:41:43,680 --> 00:41:46,000
Speaker 4: our social media as well as all of our blogs,

695
00:41:46,120 --> 00:41:49,439
Speaker 4: videos and podcasts with our sources so you can learn

696
00:41:49,520 --> 00:41:52,960
Speaker 4: so much more about librarians. Head on over to stuff

697
00:41:53,120 --> 00:41:57,480
Speaker 4: Mom Never Told You dot com.

698
00:41:58,120 --> 00:42:00,600
Speaker 3: For more on this and thousands of other tops, visit

699
00:42:00,680 --> 00:42:09,560
Speaker 3: HowStuffWorks dot com.

700
00:42:09,400 --> 00:42:09,440
Speaker 2: M