1 00:00:00,640 --> 00:00:03,160 Speaker 1: In nineteen eighty six, in the middle of an episode 2 00:00:03,240 --> 00:00:07,200 Speaker 1: of the beloved sitcom The Golden Girls, a silly, simple joke. 3 00:00:07,080 --> 00:00:09,200 Speaker 2: Not Lebanese black. 4 00:00:11,200 --> 00:00:16,079 Speaker 1: Lesbia triggered that classic laugh track and a surprising legacy. 5 00:00:16,440 --> 00:00:19,680 Speaker 1: That's because those four Golden Girls had an unsuspecting power, 6 00:00:20,160 --> 00:00:23,159 Speaker 1: the power to influence public perception about a topic that 7 00:00:23,280 --> 00:00:24,160 Speaker 1: remained taboo. 8 00:00:24,360 --> 00:00:27,600 Speaker 3: You have these four women living together in a chosen family. 9 00:00:27,960 --> 00:00:30,320 Speaker 3: This is a really powerful relationship they have with each other, 10 00:00:30,680 --> 00:00:37,040 Speaker 3: and I think that's subconsciously really good modeling for anyone really. 11 00:00:38,159 --> 00:00:41,559 Speaker 1: In shoulder pads and captans, the Golden Girls snuck positive 12 00:00:41,560 --> 00:00:45,760 Speaker 1: gay representation into millions of living rooms across America, creating 13 00:00:45,760 --> 00:00:48,519 Speaker 1: a ripple effect in writer's rooms and on screens for 14 00:00:48,560 --> 00:00:54,200 Speaker 1: decades to come. I'm Jessica Bennett and I'm Susie Vana Karam, 15 00:00:54,760 --> 00:00:57,760 Speaker 1: And this is in retrospect, where each week we revisit 16 00:00:57,800 --> 00:01:00,120 Speaker 1: a cultural moment from the past that shaped us. 17 00:01:00,160 --> 00:01:03,240 Speaker 2: And that we just can't stop thinking about today. 18 00:01:03,320 --> 00:01:05,760 Speaker 1: We're talking about the Golden girls first encounter with a 19 00:01:05,840 --> 00:01:08,559 Speaker 1: lesbian and the way it spawned an enduring gay joke, 20 00:01:08,880 --> 00:01:11,640 Speaker 1: but we're also talking about the creative ways that Hollywood 21 00:01:11,640 --> 00:01:16,039 Speaker 1: has written and sometimes hidden queer characters for decades. This 22 00:01:16,080 --> 00:01:20,679 Speaker 1: is part two. So, Susie, we've been talking about the 23 00:01:20,840 --> 00:01:24,160 Speaker 1: Lebanese lesbian episode of Golden Girls, which is actually called 24 00:01:24,240 --> 00:01:28,000 Speaker 1: Isn't It Romantic? That aired in nineteen eighty six, And 25 00:01:28,360 --> 00:01:31,920 Speaker 1: in that episode, Dorothy's friend Jane comes to visit after 26 00:01:31,959 --> 00:01:34,440 Speaker 1: the death of her partner Pat, and she develops a 27 00:01:34,440 --> 00:01:38,320 Speaker 1: crush on Rose. As we spoke about, that episode was 28 00:01:38,319 --> 00:01:41,319 Speaker 1: ahead of its time for many reasons. You know, it 29 00:01:41,360 --> 00:01:43,840 Speaker 1: was a pretty tender depiction of a lesbian character at 30 00:01:43,880 --> 00:01:47,640 Speaker 1: a time when that was pretty rare, and as we 31 00:01:47,680 --> 00:01:51,000 Speaker 1: have left about its repetition of the word lesbian really 32 00:01:51,120 --> 00:01:53,000 Speaker 1: drove home that that was a word we should feel 33 00:01:53,000 --> 00:01:53,640 Speaker 1: comfortable with. 34 00:01:53,720 --> 00:01:55,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, and even the fact that there was a gay 35 00:01:55,280 --> 00:01:57,760 Speaker 2: character at all was pretty significant for that time. 36 00:01:58,320 --> 00:02:02,480 Speaker 1: Yeah. And in order to understand how subversive that was 37 00:02:02,600 --> 00:02:05,080 Speaker 1: for the time, what you really need to understand is 38 00:02:05,120 --> 00:02:09,040 Speaker 1: the way that gay and lesbian characters were depicted back then. 39 00:02:09,720 --> 00:02:11,280 Speaker 1: So I want to set the scene a little bit 40 00:02:11,280 --> 00:02:14,720 Speaker 1: in terms of what was happening in this time. Prior 41 00:02:14,800 --> 00:02:19,200 Speaker 1: to nineteen seventy, there really were very few, if any 42 00:02:19,320 --> 00:02:22,800 Speaker 1: gay characters on screen, at all, and like that makes 43 00:02:22,840 --> 00:02:26,080 Speaker 1: sense for the time, Like homosexuality was classified as a 44 00:02:26,120 --> 00:02:28,720 Speaker 1: mental illness until nineteen seventy three. 45 00:02:28,760 --> 00:02:30,640 Speaker 2: It was I didn't realize it was that late. 46 00:02:30,919 --> 00:02:31,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, in the idea zone. 47 00:02:31,919 --> 00:02:32,600 Speaker 2: Pretty recent. 48 00:02:32,800 --> 00:02:36,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, But then you know, in nineteen sixty nine, Stonewall occurs. 49 00:02:36,560 --> 00:02:39,600 Speaker 1: So the gay liberation movement is bursting forward in the 50 00:02:39,600 --> 00:02:45,200 Speaker 1: early nineteen seventies and representation on television begins to shift 51 00:02:45,200 --> 00:02:47,600 Speaker 1: as a result of that. So in nineteen seventy one, 52 00:02:47,800 --> 00:02:50,600 Speaker 1: you have the first gay male character who appears on 53 00:02:50,639 --> 00:02:52,080 Speaker 1: the sitcom All in the Family. 54 00:02:52,560 --> 00:02:56,040 Speaker 2: What do you think that your I can't even shit you, Steve, 55 00:02:57,080 --> 00:02:58,720 Speaker 2: He's right, art Eh. 56 00:02:59,680 --> 00:03:03,040 Speaker 1: And that's interesting too because four years later, that same 57 00:03:03,160 --> 00:03:06,880 Speaker 1: show has a recurring drag queen character that's actually played 58 00:03:06,919 --> 00:03:08,240 Speaker 1: by an out drag queen. 59 00:03:08,960 --> 00:03:12,480 Speaker 4: I'm afraid you don't understand, missus Bunker, I'm a transvesti. 60 00:03:12,919 --> 00:03:14,720 Speaker 1: And then Skip I had a few years in nineteen 61 00:03:14,760 --> 00:03:17,360 Speaker 1: seventy seven, you have a trans character that appears on 62 00:03:17,400 --> 00:03:20,640 Speaker 1: The Jeffersons, and the plot line there is essentially George, 63 00:03:20,680 --> 00:03:23,520 Speaker 1: who's the patriarch of the Jefferson family, goes to meet 64 00:03:23,560 --> 00:03:26,079 Speaker 1: his old navy buddy Eddie, only to find out that 65 00:03:26,639 --> 00:03:28,640 Speaker 1: Eddie has transitioned to Edie. 66 00:03:29,080 --> 00:03:32,320 Speaker 5: If you don't understand, George, I'm a woman deep down inside. 67 00:03:32,320 --> 00:03:33,240 Speaker 4: I've always been a. 68 00:03:33,160 --> 00:03:36,160 Speaker 1: Woman, even in a navy, even in the navy. 69 00:03:36,560 --> 00:03:38,840 Speaker 2: Oh interesting, And actually, you know, in nineteen seventy seven 70 00:03:39,000 --> 00:03:41,720 Speaker 2: is the same year there's that show soap that appears 71 00:03:41,760 --> 00:03:45,760 Speaker 2: with Billy Crystal playing a gay character. Right, Oh, okay, 72 00:03:45,800 --> 00:03:47,880 Speaker 2: and I think that show was also made by Susan 73 00:03:47,880 --> 00:03:50,720 Speaker 2: Harris who made Golden Girls, right and girls. 74 00:03:50,960 --> 00:03:53,880 Speaker 1: Oh, I hadn't realized that, Okay, so before the Golden 75 00:03:53,880 --> 00:03:56,120 Speaker 1: Girls episode, she has already done this. 76 00:03:56,400 --> 00:03:59,240 Speaker 2: Yeah. And interestingly, that show initially got a lot of 77 00:03:59,280 --> 00:04:02,080 Speaker 2: backlash for having an openly gay character, but then went 78 00:04:02,120 --> 00:04:04,560 Speaker 2: on to become a huge success. So maybe that's why 79 00:04:04,560 --> 00:04:05,680 Speaker 2: she felt so comfortable. 80 00:04:05,840 --> 00:04:09,200 Speaker 1: Maybe that in Bolden Yeah. Yeah, So nineteen seventy seven 81 00:04:09,240 --> 00:04:11,960 Speaker 1: was I guess a big year because that also was 82 00:04:12,000 --> 00:04:14,680 Speaker 1: the year that one of the first black gay characters 83 00:04:14,720 --> 00:04:17,480 Speaker 1: appears on television. And this is in an episode of 84 00:04:17,560 --> 00:04:20,560 Speaker 1: Sanford Arms. I didn't know this show, but it was 85 00:04:20,600 --> 00:04:25,200 Speaker 1: a spin off of the popular black sitcom Sanford and Sons. Basically, 86 00:04:25,279 --> 00:04:28,679 Speaker 1: the character in the show is this tall, handsome civil 87 00:04:28,760 --> 00:04:31,320 Speaker 1: rights lawyer, so very much a positive depiction. 88 00:04:31,520 --> 00:04:34,039 Speaker 2: It's so interesting this is all happening in the seventies. 89 00:04:34,080 --> 00:04:36,440 Speaker 2: When you told me that just until nineteen seventy three 90 00:04:36,520 --> 00:04:39,279 Speaker 2: it was classified as a mental illness, you sort of 91 00:04:39,279 --> 00:04:40,880 Speaker 2: feel like it's a sea change in terms of the 92 00:04:40,880 --> 00:04:42,600 Speaker 2: way people are starting to think. Right. 93 00:04:42,960 --> 00:04:45,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, actually, that's a really good point, because what you're 94 00:04:45,960 --> 00:04:48,760 Speaker 1: seeing in the seventies is pretty progressive. But then there's 95 00:04:48,800 --> 00:04:51,680 Speaker 1: this kind of backlash or this erosion of that when 96 00:04:51,960 --> 00:04:55,800 Speaker 1: you start to have the eighties emerge. Essentially, by the 97 00:04:55,800 --> 00:04:59,080 Speaker 1: time The Golden Girls airs, this episode in nineteen eighty six, 98 00:05:00,240 --> 00:05:00,919 Speaker 1: is a crisis. 99 00:05:01,520 --> 00:05:03,880 Speaker 2: A mystery disease known as the gay Plague. 100 00:05:04,040 --> 00:05:07,520 Speaker 3: AIDS appears to be a virus transmitted through body secretions. 101 00:05:07,640 --> 00:05:11,400 Speaker 1: Ronald Reagan as president. I think that abstinuce has been 102 00:05:11,480 --> 00:05:12,920 Speaker 1: lacking in much of the education. 103 00:05:13,000 --> 00:05:16,440 Speaker 2: President Reagan was repeatedly booed at an AIDS research fundraising 104 00:05:16,480 --> 00:05:17,280 Speaker 2: dinner last night. 105 00:05:18,160 --> 00:05:21,400 Speaker 1: And I think to some degree, Hollywood gets scared off 106 00:05:21,440 --> 00:05:24,320 Speaker 1: from writing these fully rounded gay characters. 107 00:05:24,400 --> 00:05:26,800 Speaker 2: I mean, I think AIDS was used so much as 108 00:05:26,839 --> 00:05:30,360 Speaker 2: a cudgel to push back on gay civil rights right 109 00:05:30,400 --> 00:05:31,919 Speaker 2: I mean, it was just a way in which people 110 00:05:31,960 --> 00:05:35,080 Speaker 2: stoked so much fear around gayness and gay people. So 111 00:05:35,160 --> 00:05:37,760 Speaker 2: it makes sense that that actually pulled back on some 112 00:05:37,880 --> 00:05:38,479 Speaker 2: of the games. 113 00:05:39,080 --> 00:05:41,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, pulled back. And then at the same time, if 114 00:05:41,240 --> 00:05:45,240 Speaker 1: there are gay characters written into scripts, they're typically white 115 00:05:45,279 --> 00:05:48,520 Speaker 1: gay men, and the plotlines usually revolve around aids in 116 00:05:48,560 --> 00:05:51,039 Speaker 1: some way anyway, So this is very negative depiction. 117 00:05:51,400 --> 00:05:55,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, I guess it was either negative or very sorrowful. 118 00:05:55,400 --> 00:05:58,119 Speaker 2: So you just never got any depictions of gay joy. 119 00:05:58,920 --> 00:06:01,680 Speaker 2: But also where were all the lesbians? 120 00:06:02,400 --> 00:06:05,760 Speaker 1: So to a large degree in the eighties, lesbian visibility 121 00:06:06,040 --> 00:06:09,279 Speaker 1: on film actually reflects life like it's very much in 122 00:06:09,320 --> 00:06:12,719 Speaker 1: the shadows, even as lesbians are very instrumental to the 123 00:06:12,720 --> 00:06:16,120 Speaker 1: fight for gay rights. A couple of things worth understanding 124 00:06:16,160 --> 00:06:20,880 Speaker 1: are essentially how lesbians fit into the larger feminist movement, 125 00:06:21,200 --> 00:06:24,159 Speaker 1: which was very charged at the time, in part because 126 00:06:24,200 --> 00:06:28,760 Speaker 1: Betty Fridane called lesbians quote the lavender menace because she 127 00:06:28,920 --> 00:06:31,880 Speaker 1: felt like they would derail the women's movement's other causes. 128 00:06:32,200 --> 00:06:35,240 Speaker 1: And so I love lavendar, I know what, I love 129 00:06:35,360 --> 00:06:40,839 Speaker 1: the color level like whatever, And so lesbians felt marginalized 130 00:06:40,880 --> 00:06:43,719 Speaker 1: within the women's movement, but they also felt pretty marginalized 131 00:06:43,720 --> 00:06:47,000 Speaker 1: within the larger gay community. You know, the first Dike March, 132 00:06:47,040 --> 00:06:49,720 Speaker 1: which is the lesbian march that happens every year around Pride, 133 00:06:49,880 --> 00:06:53,840 Speaker 1: didn't even happen or become a thing until nineteen ninety three. 134 00:06:54,279 --> 00:06:57,320 Speaker 1: And I think that also shows just how groundbreaking that 135 00:06:57,480 --> 00:07:01,800 Speaker 1: Golden Girls episode was in nineteen eighty because, in fact, 136 00:07:02,040 --> 00:07:05,680 Speaker 1: the lesbian character Gene, the friend of Dorothy's, as we've discussed, 137 00:07:06,240 --> 00:07:09,280 Speaker 1: was just the second lesbian character ever to appear on 138 00:07:09,360 --> 00:07:10,160 Speaker 1: primetime TV. 139 00:07:10,320 --> 00:07:12,520 Speaker 2: Wow. Really, even in nineteen eighty six, it was the 140 00:07:12,560 --> 00:07:14,360 Speaker 2: second time they had a lesbian character. 141 00:07:15,120 --> 00:07:17,800 Speaker 1: Yes, and the first happened just a few years before 142 00:07:17,960 --> 00:07:21,280 Speaker 1: on a cops show called Hill Street Blues, and lesbian 143 00:07:21,360 --> 00:07:22,280 Speaker 1: was a police officer. 144 00:07:22,520 --> 00:07:25,200 Speaker 2: I remember Hill Street Blues. Isn't that the show that 145 00:07:26,000 --> 00:07:27,520 Speaker 2: spawned like be careful out there? 146 00:07:27,920 --> 00:07:28,520 Speaker 1: Oh my gosh. 147 00:07:28,560 --> 00:07:31,120 Speaker 2: Really yeah, with the Cops. They end the meeting by saying, 148 00:07:31,160 --> 00:07:32,000 Speaker 2: be careful out there. 149 00:07:32,360 --> 00:07:32,880 Speaker 1: I had nose. 150 00:07:33,000 --> 00:07:35,280 Speaker 2: But I don't remember this character, so it must not 151 00:07:35,320 --> 00:07:36,760 Speaker 2: have been a super prominent character. 152 00:07:37,280 --> 00:07:39,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean that's probably by design. I don't particularly 153 00:07:39,800 --> 00:07:43,400 Speaker 1: remember it either. But lesbian representation was also working against 154 00:07:43,440 --> 00:07:45,960 Speaker 1: this thing called the Hayes Code, Susie, I feel like 155 00:07:45,960 --> 00:07:47,200 Speaker 1: you probably know what that is. 156 00:07:47,360 --> 00:07:48,600 Speaker 2: I mean when you say that, I feel like I 157 00:07:48,600 --> 00:07:50,160 Speaker 2: should know. But I don't know what that is. 158 00:07:50,840 --> 00:07:53,080 Speaker 1: I don't know that you should know. I just feel 159 00:07:53,080 --> 00:07:56,800 Speaker 1: like you're a TV film whisper. But the Hayes Code 160 00:07:57,240 --> 00:08:00,520 Speaker 1: was a set of content guidelines for American movie that 161 00:08:00,640 --> 00:08:05,120 Speaker 1: existed between nineteen thirty four and nineteen sixty, with movies at. 162 00:08:05,040 --> 00:08:08,240 Speaker 4: Their lowest moral lib but riding high financially. 163 00:08:08,600 --> 00:08:11,800 Speaker 1: A new name appears on the national scene, Will Hayes 164 00:08:12,640 --> 00:08:15,600 Speaker 1: and the Hayes Code basically outline moral codes for what 165 00:08:15,640 --> 00:08:18,320 Speaker 1: could appear on screen. And so they kept this list 166 00:08:18,360 --> 00:08:21,040 Speaker 1: of topics that were not allowed to be shown. Things 167 00:08:21,160 --> 00:08:25,440 Speaker 1: like homosexuality, which was called in their words, sexual perversion, 168 00:08:26,400 --> 00:08:31,760 Speaker 1: interracial relationships, drug use, scenes of passion that feels like 169 00:08:31,800 --> 00:08:36,480 Speaker 1: it can be very hard to define, nudity, ridicule of religion, 170 00:08:36,480 --> 00:08:38,839 Speaker 1: et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And so the Hayes 171 00:08:38,880 --> 00:08:41,800 Speaker 1: Code was for movies. But the point is it seeped 172 00:08:41,800 --> 00:08:45,199 Speaker 1: into television. It goes on to set the model for 173 00:08:45,360 --> 00:08:49,880 Speaker 1: what becomes the code of practices for television broadcasters. That's 174 00:08:49,920 --> 00:08:53,240 Speaker 1: a mouthful, but basically that's the code that prohibited depictions 175 00:08:53,240 --> 00:08:54,360 Speaker 1: of homosexuality. 176 00:08:54,880 --> 00:08:56,600 Speaker 2: Yeah. I didn't know any of this history, but it 177 00:08:56,640 --> 00:08:59,080 Speaker 2: makes sense. I mean, a lot of those codes are 178 00:08:59,120 --> 00:09:01,280 Speaker 2: still in place. There are a lot of things you 179 00:09:01,320 --> 00:09:04,160 Speaker 2: still can't say on TV. And didn't you used to 180 00:09:04,200 --> 00:09:06,320 Speaker 2: not be able to say hell for a long time 181 00:09:06,320 --> 00:09:07,040 Speaker 2: on television? 182 00:09:07,800 --> 00:09:08,160 Speaker 4: Yeah? 183 00:09:08,200 --> 00:09:11,600 Speaker 1: And actually I want to reintroduce Maya Salam here. She's 184 00:09:11,640 --> 00:09:13,760 Speaker 1: the culture editor at The New York Times who's written 185 00:09:13,760 --> 00:09:16,600 Speaker 1: about this and who he spoke to earlier, and specifically 186 00:09:16,600 --> 00:09:19,120 Speaker 1: she's written about how so much of this stuff ties 187 00:09:19,200 --> 00:09:21,760 Speaker 1: back to the power of the Catholic Church. And it 188 00:09:21,840 --> 00:09:25,679 Speaker 1: wasn't just words that you couldn't say. It was subjects too, so. 189 00:09:25,720 --> 00:09:27,680 Speaker 4: Divorce, abortion, home sexuality. 190 00:09:28,040 --> 00:09:31,040 Speaker 5: The church threatened to boycott movies if these strict regulations 191 00:09:31,080 --> 00:09:34,719 Speaker 5: weren't applied, and so filmmakers and studios bowed to them. 192 00:09:35,000 --> 00:09:37,200 Speaker 5: So that's why you know, characters were written as like 193 00:09:37,559 --> 00:09:40,680 Speaker 5: Sissy's villains are sexual deviance is kind of the way 194 00:09:40,720 --> 00:09:43,400 Speaker 5: that it's put. Then it was more acceptable. They would 195 00:09:43,559 --> 00:09:47,560 Speaker 5: be more likely to allow it if they were cast 196 00:09:47,600 --> 00:09:48,960 Speaker 5: in this really negative way. 197 00:09:50,040 --> 00:09:52,440 Speaker 1: So essentially, what Maya's saying here is that the only 198 00:09:52,559 --> 00:09:57,160 Speaker 1: way to have content that the Catholic Church would disapprove of, 199 00:09:57,760 --> 00:10:03,080 Speaker 1: like representations of homosexuality, was to write these characters as villains, 200 00:10:03,160 --> 00:10:05,760 Speaker 1: so that behavior could basically act as a warning to 201 00:10:05,840 --> 00:10:09,199 Speaker 1: viewers like don't do this, look what will happen to you. 202 00:10:09,559 --> 00:10:12,439 Speaker 1: And to get around that, writers and directors start doing 203 00:10:12,520 --> 00:10:16,640 Speaker 1: something called queer coding, which is essentially create characters who 204 00:10:16,920 --> 00:10:20,400 Speaker 1: appear to be queer but couldn't actually be out due 205 00:10:20,440 --> 00:10:21,080 Speaker 1: to the codes. 206 00:10:21,200 --> 00:10:23,480 Speaker 2: That's actually kind of brilliant. So there's ways in which 207 00:10:23,559 --> 00:10:27,400 Speaker 2: they're indicating that someone is gay, but not explicitly. 208 00:10:26,840 --> 00:10:29,600 Speaker 1: Saying it exactly. Here's my again. 209 00:10:29,920 --> 00:10:33,480 Speaker 5: That's when you really start to see the really clever 210 00:10:33,600 --> 00:10:38,440 Speaker 5: ways that queerness was shown and explored in characters. 211 00:10:38,480 --> 00:10:39,959 Speaker 4: It was really this. 212 00:10:40,000 --> 00:10:43,320 Speaker 5: Under the radar only gaze maybe might pick up on it, 213 00:10:43,720 --> 00:10:47,319 Speaker 5: you don't know unless you know kind of representation. One 214 00:10:47,360 --> 00:10:52,280 Speaker 5: of my favorites is Calamity Jane, which is a nineteen 215 00:10:52,320 --> 00:10:56,360 Speaker 5: fifty three musical western with Doris Day and there's a 216 00:10:56,400 --> 00:10:58,760 Speaker 5: scene in the movie where she like walks up to 217 00:10:58,840 --> 00:11:01,559 Speaker 5: sort of who would be her crush, and she kind 218 00:11:01,559 --> 00:11:03,640 Speaker 5: of like almost tries to like look down her top 219 00:11:03,679 --> 00:11:05,160 Speaker 5: and she's like, oh I think I might be in 220 00:11:05,200 --> 00:11:06,600 Speaker 5: love with you or something like that. 221 00:11:06,679 --> 00:11:10,480 Speaker 2: Gosh, al money, the prettiest thing I ever seen. 222 00:11:10,760 --> 00:11:14,280 Speaker 4: And there's a wonderful song. It's called Secret Love. 223 00:11:14,480 --> 00:11:21,960 Speaker 1: First of all much secret Love, no Sea Coo witch, and. 224 00:11:26,280 --> 00:11:28,200 Speaker 4: It is the gayest. 225 00:11:38,320 --> 00:11:41,760 Speaker 2: Jess. It sounds like queer coding initially was a good thing. 226 00:11:41,840 --> 00:11:44,960 Speaker 2: It was kind of a way to have gay characters 227 00:11:45,520 --> 00:11:49,080 Speaker 2: hidden in plain sight and give them an opportunity to 228 00:11:49,240 --> 00:11:50,320 Speaker 2: be part of the stories. 229 00:11:51,160 --> 00:11:54,640 Speaker 1: Right and Jean, the lesbian front of Dorothy's on Golden 230 00:11:54,640 --> 00:11:57,920 Speaker 1: Girls is really a great example of this. Here's Drew 231 00:11:58,000 --> 00:11:59,280 Speaker 1: Mackie again for. 232 00:11:59,360 --> 00:12:02,839 Speaker 3: A lesbian cacharacter. Gene is very found, like she looks 233 00:12:02,880 --> 00:12:04,719 Speaker 3: like one of the girls, Like you would not look 234 00:12:04,760 --> 00:12:07,840 Speaker 3: at her and presume she's a lesbian, So she is 235 00:12:08,559 --> 00:12:11,400 Speaker 3: like sneaky And that sounds like a negative phrase, so 236 00:12:11,640 --> 00:12:13,839 Speaker 3: I'm using it as a positive here. Like they did 237 00:12:13,880 --> 00:12:16,839 Speaker 3: their homework. They tricked the audience into giving a shit 238 00:12:16,880 --> 00:12:18,439 Speaker 3: about a gay person, which is remarkable. 239 00:12:18,920 --> 00:12:21,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, So the problem with queer coding is that in 240 00:12:21,280 --> 00:12:24,480 Speaker 1: some cases it's easy for these characters to quickly veer 241 00:12:24,559 --> 00:12:27,679 Speaker 1: from kind of like this. You know, wink nod. Example 242 00:12:27,679 --> 00:12:29,679 Speaker 1: of representation to tropes. 243 00:12:30,040 --> 00:12:33,920 Speaker 2: So this positive thing can sort of turn negative when 244 00:12:33,960 --> 00:12:36,200 Speaker 2: it becomes kind of stereotypical. So what does some of 245 00:12:36,200 --> 00:12:37,160 Speaker 2: those tropes look like? 246 00:12:38,280 --> 00:12:40,160 Speaker 1: One of them is what Drew and his co host 247 00:12:40,280 --> 00:12:44,040 Speaker 1: call it, the angel gay. That's this idea that you 248 00:12:44,400 --> 00:12:47,400 Speaker 1: have to be perfect good in every way, like you're 249 00:12:47,440 --> 00:12:50,320 Speaker 1: not allowed to have flaws if you are a gay character, 250 00:12:50,440 --> 00:12:54,600 Speaker 1: because you can't possibly reflect poorly on your community in anyone. Oh. 251 00:12:54,600 --> 00:12:56,599 Speaker 2: Interesting, So this is sort of like the equivalent of 252 00:12:56,640 --> 00:12:58,480 Speaker 2: a model minority. 253 00:12:59,240 --> 00:13:01,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's a really good comparison. Here's Drew 254 00:13:01,880 --> 00:13:04,880 Speaker 1: talking about how this applies to that Golden Girls episode. 255 00:13:05,200 --> 00:13:07,800 Speaker 3: In some ways, Gene is sort of an angel lesbian 256 00:13:08,000 --> 00:13:10,480 Speaker 3: in that, like she doesn't really have any flaws. She's 257 00:13:11,000 --> 00:13:13,800 Speaker 3: aside from the fact that she is lusting after Rose, 258 00:13:14,160 --> 00:13:17,760 Speaker 3: and angel gays normally don't get to want someone the 259 00:13:17,760 --> 00:13:20,680 Speaker 3: way Gene wants Rose. So that's probably the one exception 260 00:13:20,760 --> 00:13:20,960 Speaker 3: to it. 261 00:13:21,040 --> 00:13:24,240 Speaker 1: And Okay, it's because they can't show lust or desire. 262 00:13:24,520 --> 00:13:24,880 Speaker 2: They don't. 263 00:13:24,920 --> 00:13:27,320 Speaker 3: Yeah, they don't. You're there to like maybe make some 264 00:13:27,320 --> 00:13:29,960 Speaker 3: snapping comments and that's it. Mostly you're there to help 265 00:13:30,280 --> 00:13:34,000 Speaker 3: probably a straight female character achieve something in her life, 266 00:13:34,080 --> 00:13:36,480 Speaker 3: and then you fled away and you never heard from again. 267 00:13:37,240 --> 00:13:41,040 Speaker 3: There is this thing that happens on sitcoms where usually 268 00:13:41,120 --> 00:13:43,920 Speaker 3: in the second season they'll do an episode that tells 269 00:13:43,920 --> 00:13:47,480 Speaker 3: the audience, despite how things might look, this character is 270 00:13:47,520 --> 00:13:50,400 Speaker 3: not gay. And this is an example of that where 271 00:13:50,480 --> 00:13:52,560 Speaker 3: if someone is watching, like, why are these ladies living together? 272 00:13:52,600 --> 00:13:55,000 Speaker 3: Are they some sort of lesbians? This is the episode 273 00:13:55,000 --> 00:13:57,800 Speaker 3: that will definitively spell out they are not lesbians. B 274 00:13:57,960 --> 00:14:00,120 Speaker 3: Arthur has that voice, she is not a lesbian and 275 00:14:00,400 --> 00:14:03,440 Speaker 3: they are all heterosexual. Don't worry, you're watching a straight 276 00:14:03,480 --> 00:14:04,640 Speaker 3: show with straight characters. 277 00:14:05,280 --> 00:14:06,080 Speaker 1: Do you have a name for that? 278 00:14:06,520 --> 00:14:08,559 Speaker 3: I guess we're called the second season clarification. 279 00:14:11,080 --> 00:14:13,800 Speaker 1: Another troupe you might recognize, it's called buryer gaze. 280 00:14:13,880 --> 00:14:15,000 Speaker 2: That doesn't sound good. 281 00:14:15,679 --> 00:14:18,439 Speaker 1: The trope was originally used actually in books. It was 282 00:14:18,480 --> 00:14:21,119 Speaker 1: a way for gay authors to write about gay characters 283 00:14:21,160 --> 00:14:24,680 Speaker 1: without coming under fire for breaking laws. And so you 284 00:14:24,720 --> 00:14:26,800 Speaker 1: see this a lot in lesbian pulp fiction of the 285 00:14:26,880 --> 00:14:30,440 Speaker 1: nineteen fifties and sixties, and the idea there was that 286 00:14:30,800 --> 00:14:34,560 Speaker 1: they could avoid the censors and the obscenity laws because 287 00:14:34,560 --> 00:14:36,960 Speaker 1: if a queer character was given a happy ending, it 288 00:14:37,000 --> 00:14:39,640 Speaker 1: would set off alarms. But if you just kill one 289 00:14:39,680 --> 00:14:43,400 Speaker 1: off at the end, then it becomes a cautionary tale. Okay, 290 00:14:43,720 --> 00:14:49,840 Speaker 1: terror maybe God, it's so insidious, isn't that crazy? So 291 00:14:50,320 --> 00:14:53,880 Speaker 1: it sort of starts as this sneaky positive but not 292 00:14:54,000 --> 00:14:56,760 Speaker 1: totally positive thing, but then it just starts to become 293 00:14:57,320 --> 00:14:58,600 Speaker 1: a broader trop. 294 00:14:58,480 --> 00:15:01,920 Speaker 2: Meaning they just eventually start killing off all their gay characters. 295 00:15:02,320 --> 00:15:06,000 Speaker 1: I mean kind of auto Straddle, which is a lesbian website, 296 00:15:06,120 --> 00:15:09,360 Speaker 1: has a list that they update every year of currently 297 00:15:09,360 --> 00:15:12,480 Speaker 1: it's two hundred and thirty dead lesbian and bisexual characters 298 00:15:12,520 --> 00:15:14,040 Speaker 1: on TV and how they died. 299 00:15:14,240 --> 00:15:16,160 Speaker 2: It's interesting because that's a trope we hear about so 300 00:15:16,240 --> 00:15:18,640 Speaker 2: much in horror movies about the black friend, Like if 301 00:15:18,680 --> 00:15:20,400 Speaker 2: you're the black friend in a horror movie, you're going 302 00:15:20,480 --> 00:15:22,920 Speaker 2: to die first. But I didn't realize this was also 303 00:15:22,960 --> 00:15:25,800 Speaker 2: a thing. If you were a lesbian or bisexual character, 304 00:15:25,880 --> 00:15:28,880 Speaker 2: you also were doomed. That's a really good comparison. 305 00:15:28,920 --> 00:15:30,520 Speaker 1: And yeah, there are a few that I remember, Like 306 00:15:30,560 --> 00:15:33,640 Speaker 1: there's an example in nineteen ninety seven and NYPD Blue 307 00:15:33,680 --> 00:15:36,160 Speaker 1: where Kathy, who is a lesbian, is shot by a 308 00:15:36,240 --> 00:15:40,520 Speaker 1: hitman hired by her girlfriend's ex. There's another example on Buffy, 309 00:15:40,600 --> 00:15:43,560 Speaker 1: which I think is more our generation. There's this scene 310 00:15:43,600 --> 00:15:46,440 Speaker 1: where you finally get to see longtime girlfriends Willow and 311 00:15:46,520 --> 00:15:50,880 Speaker 1: Tara in bed together. I forget how good this could feel, 312 00:15:52,640 --> 00:15:57,920 Speaker 1: us together, about the magic. There was plenty of magic, 313 00:15:58,480 --> 00:16:00,840 Speaker 1: and yet then in that very same episode, Tera is 314 00:16:00,920 --> 00:16:02,640 Speaker 1: killed by a stray bullet, so you don't get to 315 00:16:02,640 --> 00:16:04,000 Speaker 1: see the relationship progress. 316 00:16:04,160 --> 00:16:06,400 Speaker 2: Wasn't that sort of a famous scene with Willow and 317 00:16:06,440 --> 00:16:09,280 Speaker 2: Derek as they had shared a historic kiss. 318 00:16:09,600 --> 00:16:11,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's why I think it was so upsetting when 319 00:16:11,800 --> 00:16:14,280 Speaker 1: she was killed off. But here let me go to 320 00:16:14,360 --> 00:16:16,960 Speaker 1: Maya again, because she actually talks about how this plays 321 00:16:16,960 --> 00:16:18,360 Speaker 1: out in a couple of different ways. 322 00:16:18,680 --> 00:16:23,120 Speaker 5: There is the obvious the person literally dies, it drops dead. 323 00:16:23,360 --> 00:16:27,200 Speaker 5: But even if a lesbian character or any LGBTQ character, 324 00:16:27,320 --> 00:16:30,600 Speaker 5: even the Golden Girl's character, in a way, they might 325 00:16:30,640 --> 00:16:33,480 Speaker 5: not die, but you just never see them again. You Know, 326 00:16:33,520 --> 00:16:35,920 Speaker 5: It's one thing to like come out on TV or 327 00:16:36,000 --> 00:16:38,120 Speaker 5: be on an episode, say, it's a whole other thing 328 00:16:38,160 --> 00:16:42,760 Speaker 5: to have a whole storyline and continue to be gay. 329 00:16:44,120 --> 00:16:47,120 Speaker 5: So it's like one thing to come out and be 330 00:16:47,280 --> 00:16:52,359 Speaker 5: gay on TV, but it's another thing to stay gay. 331 00:16:54,120 --> 00:16:57,280 Speaker 1: Okay, there's one other phenomenon I want to mention here, 332 00:16:57,440 --> 00:17:01,040 Speaker 1: which is the lesbian kiss, and in particular the lesbian 333 00:17:01,120 --> 00:17:04,959 Speaker 1: kiss episode, which becomes a thing in television and film 334 00:17:05,200 --> 00:17:10,280 Speaker 1: where a seemingly heterosexual female character will kiss a possibly 335 00:17:10,480 --> 00:17:14,920 Speaker 1: lesbian or maybe by character, and in many of the instances, 336 00:17:15,119 --> 00:17:18,679 Speaker 1: like the potential for a relationship does not actually survive 337 00:17:18,920 --> 00:17:22,600 Speaker 1: past this one episode, and you know, the lesbian or 338 00:17:22,720 --> 00:17:26,280 Speaker 1: suspected lesbian is never to be heard from again, and 339 00:17:26,520 --> 00:17:30,080 Speaker 1: the other character goes back to their straight hetero. 340 00:17:30,040 --> 00:17:32,120 Speaker 2: So this would be the sort of like the lesbian 341 00:17:32,200 --> 00:17:34,640 Speaker 2: kiss that's really purely for the male gaze. 342 00:17:34,880 --> 00:17:37,760 Speaker 1: I think that's exactly it. And one of the first 343 00:17:37,800 --> 00:17:40,960 Speaker 1: big examples of this comes in nineteen ninety one on 344 00:17:41,200 --> 00:17:41,760 Speaker 1: La Law. 345 00:17:41,840 --> 00:17:44,480 Speaker 2: Oh, I know La Law. I watched La Law. I'm 346 00:17:44,520 --> 00:17:46,919 Speaker 2: beginning to think this episode is purely set up to 347 00:17:46,960 --> 00:17:49,040 Speaker 2: make it look like I did nothing but watch TV 348 00:17:49,119 --> 00:17:50,280 Speaker 2: as a child, which is not. 349 00:17:50,440 --> 00:17:53,600 Speaker 1: You too accurate, And maybe I didn't watch enough. It's 350 00:17:53,600 --> 00:17:55,760 Speaker 1: like all I did about it because I don't remember this, 351 00:17:55,880 --> 00:17:59,680 Speaker 1: But what happened is there's a kiss between these two lawyers, 352 00:18:00,240 --> 00:18:02,800 Speaker 1: Lamb and Abby Perkins and It's widely regarded as the 353 00:18:02,840 --> 00:18:06,120 Speaker 1: first romantic kiss between two women on a major network. 354 00:18:06,920 --> 00:18:10,399 Speaker 1: And this is interesting because it's historic in a good 355 00:18:10,400 --> 00:18:13,240 Speaker 1: way in that it's the first time two women kiss 356 00:18:13,280 --> 00:18:16,159 Speaker 1: on TV, and also because you know, neither one of 357 00:18:16,200 --> 00:18:19,920 Speaker 1: them dies or like kills anyone or is ostracized afterwards. 358 00:18:19,960 --> 00:18:21,959 Speaker 2: And I don't remember this character being gay at all, 359 00:18:22,000 --> 00:18:23,080 Speaker 2: so that's fascinating. 360 00:18:23,640 --> 00:18:26,040 Speaker 1: And part of that is probably because it was never 361 00:18:26,160 --> 00:18:28,760 Speaker 1: meant to be a real relationship that would develop. 362 00:18:29,080 --> 00:18:32,280 Speaker 4: You kissed me back, Yeah, I'd sort of like to forget. 363 00:18:32,000 --> 00:18:32,440 Speaker 2: The whole thing. 364 00:18:33,640 --> 00:18:37,160 Speaker 1: Even later on, as the actresses who played these characters 365 00:18:37,160 --> 00:18:41,160 Speaker 1: were interviewed, they've described how essentially this kiss was included 366 00:18:41,240 --> 00:18:43,280 Speaker 1: for race of course, like it was not meant to 367 00:18:43,320 --> 00:18:45,639 Speaker 1: be developed, It was not meant to be expanded on. 368 00:18:46,359 --> 00:18:47,800 Speaker 1: And that was it. 369 00:18:47,840 --> 00:18:49,720 Speaker 2: Wasn't there something similar on Picket Fences? 370 00:18:50,480 --> 00:18:53,480 Speaker 1: Yeah? So Picket Fences is another example where two teenagers 371 00:18:53,560 --> 00:18:56,320 Speaker 1: kiss in nineteen ninety three, and then one of the 372 00:18:56,320 --> 00:19:00,080 Speaker 1: big ones that's often referenced is nineteen ninety four on Roseanne, 373 00:19:00,240 --> 00:19:03,520 Speaker 1: and this is a kiss between Roseanne Barr and maryo Hemenway, 374 00:19:03,800 --> 00:19:06,720 Speaker 1: and it's in an episode titled don't ask, don't tell, 375 00:19:07,080 --> 00:19:08,280 Speaker 1: get a hang out world. 376 00:19:08,680 --> 00:19:10,840 Speaker 2: I was thinking that too, but next time, let's leave 377 00:19:10,880 --> 00:19:12,200 Speaker 2: the wives at home. 378 00:19:14,800 --> 00:19:15,520 Speaker 4: Read my mind. 379 00:19:16,160 --> 00:19:17,080 Speaker 1: Huh. 380 00:19:17,480 --> 00:19:21,320 Speaker 2: I don't actually remember this particular episode, but this must 381 00:19:21,320 --> 00:19:23,160 Speaker 2: have been the Clinton era, right because don't Ask, Don't 382 00:19:23,160 --> 00:19:26,040 Speaker 2: Tell was something he introduced in relationship to gays in 383 00:19:26,080 --> 00:19:28,359 Speaker 2: the military, but it was very much part of the zeitgeist. 384 00:19:28,640 --> 00:19:30,879 Speaker 1: And this one actually ends up being a pretty big deal. 385 00:19:31,040 --> 00:19:34,360 Speaker 1: The kiss lasts for three seconds, oh my god. Though 386 00:19:34,400 --> 00:19:37,400 Speaker 1: of course, if you rewatch it, you can't actually see 387 00:19:37,440 --> 00:19:39,040 Speaker 1: either of their lips, so you. 388 00:19:38,960 --> 00:19:42,480 Speaker 2: Know, I'm watch that because I don't know how you 389 00:19:42,520 --> 00:19:46,320 Speaker 2: would have a kiss where you couldn't see any lips. 390 00:19:45,720 --> 00:19:48,360 Speaker 1: But it becomes a big deal. Like ABC didn't want 391 00:19:48,359 --> 00:19:51,720 Speaker 1: to air the episode, and whatever we think of Roseanne 392 00:19:51,720 --> 00:19:56,199 Speaker 1: bar today, at this time, she, to her credit, threatened 393 00:19:56,200 --> 00:19:58,920 Speaker 1: to take her sitcom to another network if they wouldn't 394 00:19:58,960 --> 00:20:02,080 Speaker 1: actually air, which I think is part of the beauty 395 00:20:02,119 --> 00:20:03,960 Speaker 1: of being in charge of your own show, which she 396 00:20:04,359 --> 00:20:05,719 Speaker 1: was at the time with her husband. 397 00:20:05,800 --> 00:20:07,520 Speaker 2: I mean, I think that is the sad thing about 398 00:20:07,560 --> 00:20:10,920 Speaker 2: rose Enbart because that show really did break so many 399 00:20:10,960 --> 00:20:14,720 Speaker 2: barriers and was so progressive in so many ways. 400 00:20:14,480 --> 00:20:17,160 Speaker 1: And actually that character becomes one of the first recurring 401 00:20:17,200 --> 00:20:20,159 Speaker 1: bisexual characters on a show, so it really did have 402 00:20:20,200 --> 00:20:23,639 Speaker 1: an impact. But for the most part, these lesbian kiss 403 00:20:23,680 --> 00:20:28,080 Speaker 1: episodes were more just sweep stunts. And in many cases, 404 00:20:28,200 --> 00:20:31,280 Speaker 1: these sweep stunts are dreamed up by a straight male 405 00:20:31,480 --> 00:20:32,159 Speaker 1: show runner. 406 00:20:32,320 --> 00:20:34,760 Speaker 2: I mean, of course they are, because straight male showrunners 407 00:20:35,040 --> 00:20:37,080 Speaker 2: still run most shows unfortunately. 408 00:20:37,560 --> 00:20:41,720 Speaker 1: And the thing is, these stunts are actually pretty effective 409 00:20:41,760 --> 00:20:44,760 Speaker 1: in a lot of ways. Like they're visual, they are cheap, 410 00:20:45,000 --> 00:20:48,000 Speaker 1: they're controversial, so people talk about them. And then the 411 00:20:48,040 --> 00:20:51,960 Speaker 1: other thing is they're like easily reversible. You don't have 412 00:20:52,080 --> 00:20:55,359 Speaker 1: to develop the relationship. You can, like you said, just 413 00:20:55,400 --> 00:20:57,199 Speaker 1: like go vanish into the night and go back to 414 00:20:57,200 --> 00:20:58,400 Speaker 1: the plotline as you had. 415 00:20:58,320 --> 00:21:00,560 Speaker 2: It before, right, So it's like the lesbians sweeps in, 416 00:21:00,800 --> 00:21:04,240 Speaker 2: gives you your sweeps numbers, and then sweeps away exactly. 417 00:21:04,600 --> 00:21:06,960 Speaker 2: You know what this reminds me of actually is do 418 00:21:07,000 --> 00:21:11,120 Speaker 2: you remember when Brittany and Madonna and Christina Aguilera did 419 00:21:11,119 --> 00:21:14,680 Speaker 2: that kiss at the MTV VMAs in two thousand and three. 420 00:21:15,160 --> 00:21:18,160 Speaker 1: I of course remember this moment, but I think I've 421 00:21:18,160 --> 00:21:20,639 Speaker 1: forgotten the details a little bit. Like I remember there 422 00:21:20,680 --> 00:21:23,879 Speaker 1: was a pretty lengthy kiss between Brittany and Madonna, And 423 00:21:24,040 --> 00:21:25,800 Speaker 1: was Christina watching while that happened? 424 00:21:25,960 --> 00:21:28,680 Speaker 2: Well, I mean, I guess Christina was watching, But really 425 00:21:28,720 --> 00:21:30,240 Speaker 2: what it was was that the three of them performed 426 00:21:30,240 --> 00:21:32,920 Speaker 2: a song Brittany, Madonna, and Christina Aguilera, and at the 427 00:21:33,000 --> 00:21:36,080 Speaker 2: end of the song, Madonna leans over and gives Brittany 428 00:21:36,200 --> 00:21:38,560 Speaker 2: kind of a peck. Actually it's not like a lengthy kiss, 429 00:21:38,560 --> 00:21:40,240 Speaker 2: although there was a lot of debate at the time 430 00:21:40,320 --> 00:21:43,320 Speaker 2: of whether or not there was tongue or whatever. And 431 00:21:43,640 --> 00:21:46,560 Speaker 2: then she does the same with Christina. But most people 432 00:21:46,600 --> 00:21:50,479 Speaker 2: don't remember the Christina part because the camera immediately panned 433 00:21:50,480 --> 00:21:54,760 Speaker 2: to Justin Timberlake, because Brittany and Justin had recently broken up, 434 00:21:54,800 --> 00:21:57,800 Speaker 2: So you know, all the audience cared about was his reaction, 435 00:21:58,000 --> 00:22:00,440 Speaker 2: or all the director thought the audience would care about 436 00:22:00,480 --> 00:22:03,000 Speaker 2: was his reaction. So, you know, Brittany wrote about this 437 00:22:03,080 --> 00:22:05,119 Speaker 2: in her book about how this becomes kind of a 438 00:22:05,160 --> 00:22:08,600 Speaker 2: big cultural moment and it's for the same reasons, right, 439 00:22:08,640 --> 00:22:12,560 Speaker 2: It's salacious and it gets attention because it's two women kissing. 440 00:22:13,320 --> 00:22:17,960 Speaker 1: And actually Maya said something really interesting about how growing 441 00:22:18,040 --> 00:22:23,119 Speaker 1: up during this time, these random performative kisses felt so 442 00:22:23,359 --> 00:22:27,560 Speaker 1: prevalent that they actually influenced how she felt about using 443 00:22:27,600 --> 00:22:28,680 Speaker 1: the word lesbian. 444 00:22:29,280 --> 00:22:31,320 Speaker 5: I mean, I will admit that it has not always 445 00:22:31,320 --> 00:22:33,760 Speaker 5: been the most comfortable word for me to use, depends 446 00:22:33,800 --> 00:22:36,879 Speaker 5: on the setting. In the eighties and nineties and the aughts, 447 00:22:37,320 --> 00:22:40,520 Speaker 5: it was like a phrase that represented it just went 448 00:22:40,760 --> 00:22:43,480 Speaker 5: hand in hand with like pornography and what The word 449 00:22:43,560 --> 00:22:46,920 Speaker 5: lesbian was like a word kind of owned and used 450 00:22:47,800 --> 00:22:51,840 Speaker 5: by like men to represent like what they wanted to see. 451 00:22:51,960 --> 00:22:52,199 Speaker 4: It was. 452 00:22:52,400 --> 00:22:56,160 Speaker 1: It was like titillating to say the wordless exactly exactly. 453 00:22:56,200 --> 00:22:58,760 Speaker 5: You don't always want to conjure up images of like 454 00:22:58,920 --> 00:23:01,199 Speaker 5: lesbian sex and people's. 455 00:23:00,480 --> 00:23:01,639 Speaker 4: When you use the word. 456 00:23:02,320 --> 00:23:04,000 Speaker 5: So I used to just rely on using the word 457 00:23:04,040 --> 00:23:07,480 Speaker 5: gay because I didn't feel like I own the word 458 00:23:07,560 --> 00:23:09,560 Speaker 5: lesbian in the way that I wanted to the way 459 00:23:09,600 --> 00:23:11,960 Speaker 5: that I feel like I do now. 460 00:23:13,520 --> 00:23:16,679 Speaker 2: But some real lesbian characters do you start to emerge. 461 00:23:16,800 --> 00:23:20,480 Speaker 2: Right in the late nineties and the aughts, we start 462 00:23:20,520 --> 00:23:22,240 Speaker 2: to see this improve in a way. 463 00:23:23,200 --> 00:23:25,639 Speaker 1: Yeah, there were a few. One that I really remember 464 00:23:25,760 --> 00:23:28,919 Speaker 1: is on Friends, where you have Ross's ex wife Carol, 465 00:23:29,160 --> 00:23:33,080 Speaker 1: who has an affair and leaves him for Susan. Yes, Friends, 466 00:23:33,480 --> 00:23:36,720 Speaker 1: Family were gathered here today to join Carol and Susan 467 00:23:36,840 --> 00:23:40,720 Speaker 1: in holy matrimony, and Susan and Carol go on to 468 00:23:40,760 --> 00:23:44,480 Speaker 1: get married, and the three of them cope parent their son, 469 00:23:44,560 --> 00:23:47,520 Speaker 1: which is actually a really nice example of a blended family. 470 00:23:47,640 --> 00:23:50,159 Speaker 2: I really remember that it was often sort of a 471 00:23:50,240 --> 00:23:52,840 Speaker 2: joke at Ross's expense, right that his wife had left 472 00:23:52,880 --> 00:23:55,359 Speaker 2: him for a woman. But they did air Susan and 473 00:23:55,359 --> 00:23:58,760 Speaker 2: Carroll's wedding nearly a decade before same sex marriage was 474 00:23:58,840 --> 00:23:59,959 Speaker 2: legal in the United States. 475 00:24:00,240 --> 00:24:02,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, so all of that was great in a lot 476 00:24:02,840 --> 00:24:05,520 Speaker 1: of ways, but there were still limits, like they didn't 477 00:24:05,600 --> 00:24:09,280 Speaker 1: kiss at that wedding. The wedding episode was banned in 478 00:24:09,359 --> 00:24:13,720 Speaker 1: several markets, and like you said, the relationship was really 479 00:24:13,800 --> 00:24:16,399 Speaker 1: used as a punchline at the expense of Ross, like 480 00:24:16,480 --> 00:24:19,800 Speaker 1: sometimes in a funny way, but also as a punchline. 481 00:24:20,280 --> 00:24:20,840 Speaker 1: It seems like. 482 00:24:20,880 --> 00:24:22,720 Speaker 3: Ross is the kind of guy who would marry a 483 00:24:22,760 --> 00:24:25,080 Speaker 3: woman on the verge of being a lesbian and then 484 00:24:25,119 --> 00:24:27,000 Speaker 3: push her over the ash. 485 00:24:27,040 --> 00:24:29,800 Speaker 1: Another thing that happened was later on the actress who 486 00:24:29,800 --> 00:24:32,800 Speaker 1: played Susan actually did an interview where she talked about 487 00:24:32,800 --> 00:24:35,679 Speaker 1: how she was cast for the role because basically she 488 00:24:35,720 --> 00:24:39,440 Speaker 1: didn't look like a lesbian, so she was palatable enough 489 00:24:39,640 --> 00:24:41,120 Speaker 1: for the friend's audience. 490 00:24:41,200 --> 00:24:43,399 Speaker 2: You know, that's kind of a parallel to Jane in 491 00:24:43,440 --> 00:24:46,400 Speaker 2: the Golden Girls episode, right, that in some ways it's 492 00:24:46,440 --> 00:24:49,439 Speaker 2: progress to have lesbian characters who don't look like some 493 00:24:49,480 --> 00:24:52,560 Speaker 2: sort of stereotype, the same way it's progressed not to 494 00:24:52,560 --> 00:24:55,000 Speaker 2: have gay men who always have to be like sassy 495 00:24:55,080 --> 00:24:57,760 Speaker 2: best friends. But on the other hand, it's also about 496 00:24:57,920 --> 00:25:01,040 Speaker 2: making them accessible to a quote unquote mainstream audience. 497 00:25:01,040 --> 00:25:04,000 Speaker 1: I guess, yeah, exactly. And actually, I want to go 498 00:25:04,080 --> 00:25:06,159 Speaker 1: back to Jane for a moment and that Golden Girls 499 00:25:06,160 --> 00:25:09,000 Speaker 1: episode that started all of this, because yes, on the 500 00:25:09,040 --> 00:25:13,000 Speaker 1: one hand, like Jean is the perfect not too lesbian lesbian, 501 00:25:13,640 --> 00:25:16,520 Speaker 1: but there are also some things in watching the episode 502 00:25:16,520 --> 00:25:19,040 Speaker 1: now that really stood out to me. The first thing 503 00:25:19,080 --> 00:25:21,639 Speaker 1: is that Jean's character is pretty well developed for a 504 00:25:21,680 --> 00:25:25,600 Speaker 1: gay character at that time, Like she's comfortable with her sexuality, 505 00:25:25,760 --> 00:25:29,080 Speaker 1: she's uninterested in hiding it. At one point, when Dorothy 506 00:25:29,200 --> 00:25:31,680 Speaker 1: is telling her that she wasn't sure she should tell 507 00:25:31,680 --> 00:25:34,320 Speaker 1: the other girls, Jane says, well, you know, I'm not 508 00:25:34,440 --> 00:25:36,280 Speaker 1: embarrassed or ashamed of who I am. 509 00:25:36,680 --> 00:25:38,639 Speaker 2: Hey, you know your friends better than I do. If 510 00:25:38,680 --> 00:25:41,160 Speaker 2: you think they're the kind of people who can handle it, I'd. 511 00:25:41,480 --> 00:25:45,480 Speaker 1: Prefer to tell them. And also she's always been a lesbian, 512 00:25:45,520 --> 00:25:48,400 Speaker 1: like she's not just trying this on, which I think 513 00:25:48,480 --> 00:25:51,080 Speaker 1: is how in later years a lot of the gay 514 00:25:51,200 --> 00:25:53,880 Speaker 1: characters were depicted as just trying it out and then 515 00:25:54,080 --> 00:25:57,040 Speaker 1: going back to the way they were. And even when 516 00:25:57,320 --> 00:26:00,159 Speaker 1: you know she has the hots four Rose, it's not 517 00:26:00,200 --> 00:26:03,240 Speaker 1: treated in like a predatory sense or even so much 518 00:26:03,480 --> 00:26:06,680 Speaker 1: like a joke. And then when the episode closes, after 519 00:26:06,720 --> 00:26:10,280 Speaker 1: we've learned that Rose doesn't share the feelings, but she 520 00:26:10,320 --> 00:26:13,400 Speaker 1: says this really lovely thing, which is she gently tells Jean, 521 00:26:14,000 --> 00:26:16,960 Speaker 1: if I were like you, meaning a lesbian, I'd be 522 00:26:17,000 --> 00:26:18,920 Speaker 1: proud and flattered that you thought of me that way. 523 00:26:19,080 --> 00:26:21,800 Speaker 2: That is actually a really lovely way to respond. I 524 00:26:21,880 --> 00:26:24,320 Speaker 2: think we all wish that, you know, when we were 525 00:26:24,560 --> 00:26:27,439 Speaker 2: presented with something uncomfortable, we would respond in such like 526 00:26:27,480 --> 00:26:28,840 Speaker 2: a gentle and sweet way. 527 00:26:29,280 --> 00:26:33,440 Speaker 1: And so it's interesting looking back and trying to analyze 528 00:26:33,480 --> 00:26:35,560 Speaker 1: I guess what is going on here, and like how 529 00:26:35,680 --> 00:26:39,280 Speaker 1: much the writers were actually conscious of what they're doing, 530 00:26:39,400 --> 00:26:43,119 Speaker 1: because on the one hand, Jean, she appears she's like 531 00:26:43,640 --> 00:26:47,360 Speaker 1: very attractive, she's super palatable. She looks like the other girls. 532 00:26:47,480 --> 00:26:50,200 Speaker 1: You know, she's got her own caf dan. She's not butchered. 533 00:26:50,280 --> 00:26:53,040 Speaker 1: She's not playing into the stereotype we might have of 534 00:26:53,080 --> 00:26:56,320 Speaker 1: what a lesbian looks like. At the same time, the 535 00:26:56,359 --> 00:26:58,760 Speaker 1: writers are not shying away from the fact that she 536 00:26:58,920 --> 00:27:01,720 Speaker 1: is who she is, Like they say the word lesbian 537 00:27:01,800 --> 00:27:04,520 Speaker 1: in that episode over and over and over again, like 538 00:27:04,600 --> 00:27:07,200 Speaker 1: if you were confusing Lebanese and lesbian before, you will 539 00:27:07,240 --> 00:27:10,600 Speaker 1: not be confusing it after you watch this, And that 540 00:27:10,760 --> 00:27:17,840 Speaker 1: was really not common at that time. 541 00:27:26,000 --> 00:27:28,640 Speaker 2: We've finally seen an evolution to some degree with how 542 00:27:28,720 --> 00:27:33,160 Speaker 2: lesbians are depicted on TV. But I'm curious if anything 543 00:27:33,160 --> 00:27:36,000 Speaker 2: else comes of the Lebanese lesbian joke. 544 00:27:36,680 --> 00:27:39,879 Speaker 1: Well, yes, so, just to recap after Golden Girls, the 545 00:27:39,960 --> 00:27:42,359 Speaker 1: joke first re emerges in nineteen ninety one on the 546 00:27:42,440 --> 00:27:46,040 Speaker 1: Rose O'donnald Show in a conversation with Ellen DeGeneres, and 547 00:27:46,080 --> 00:27:48,119 Speaker 1: then again it appears in Me and Girls as a 548 00:27:48,200 --> 00:27:51,240 Speaker 1: kind of wink wink inside joke about janis Ian the 549 00:27:51,320 --> 00:27:54,680 Speaker 1: hot goth Lebanie is lesbian. But this is the best part. 550 00:27:54,800 --> 00:27:56,119 Speaker 1: The joke keeps coming up. 551 00:27:56,280 --> 00:27:58,320 Speaker 2: It really does have a life of its own. 552 00:27:58,800 --> 00:28:03,080 Speaker 1: It is again in twenty eleven episode of Glee. This 553 00:28:03,200 --> 00:28:05,480 Speaker 1: is an episode titled Born This Way, which is the 554 00:28:05,560 --> 00:28:08,760 Speaker 1: Lady Gaga queer anbum. Yes, I'm guessing you also watched 555 00:28:08,760 --> 00:28:09,200 Speaker 1: Clee Okay. 556 00:28:09,280 --> 00:28:13,680 Speaker 2: Yes, obviously I'm familiar both with Lady Gaga and Lee. 557 00:28:13,960 --> 00:28:16,639 Speaker 1: Okay, And so in this episode there's a scene of 558 00:28:16,720 --> 00:28:19,640 Speaker 1: Santana and Brittany, and Brittany gets a T shirt made 559 00:28:19,680 --> 00:28:23,320 Speaker 1: that's supposed to say lesbian, but instead it says Lebanese Way. 560 00:28:23,440 --> 00:28:26,119 Speaker 2: Was that supposed to be lesbian? Yeah? Isn't that what 561 00:28:26,160 --> 00:28:26,920 Speaker 2: it says? 562 00:28:27,320 --> 00:28:29,320 Speaker 1: And it's supposed to be I guess this kind of 563 00:28:29,359 --> 00:28:33,040 Speaker 1: airhead moment or mistake, but there it is again, Lebanie 564 00:28:33,119 --> 00:28:33,640 Speaker 1: is lesbian. 565 00:28:33,640 --> 00:28:36,000 Speaker 2: I probably watched this and it didn't register for me 566 00:28:36,040 --> 00:28:38,400 Speaker 2: because I didn't know that this joke was like a thing, 567 00:28:38,520 --> 00:28:39,800 Speaker 2: So I probably was just like, yes. 568 00:28:39,680 --> 00:28:44,320 Speaker 1: He's very did see Then later on in twenty seventeen, 569 00:28:44,480 --> 00:28:47,560 Speaker 1: there's actually an episode of Master of None. This is 570 00:28:47,600 --> 00:28:50,800 Speaker 1: the show created by Azi's I'm Sorry, and they devote 571 00:28:50,800 --> 00:28:54,000 Speaker 1: this entire episode to the coming out story of Denise, 572 00:28:54,240 --> 00:28:55,760 Speaker 1: who's played by Lena Waith. 573 00:28:55,880 --> 00:28:57,840 Speaker 2: We finally found a show that I did not watch, 574 00:28:57,880 --> 00:29:01,040 Speaker 2: but I do remember that Lena in an Emmy for this, right, 575 00:29:01,080 --> 00:29:02,480 Speaker 2: I've been meaning to watch this show. 576 00:29:02,600 --> 00:29:05,320 Speaker 1: Yeah it's Leena Way want an Emmy for this. But 577 00:29:05,400 --> 00:29:08,320 Speaker 1: the interesting thing here is that this joke appears again, 578 00:29:08,480 --> 00:29:11,200 Speaker 1: but this time it's a little bit less of a 579 00:29:11,280 --> 00:29:13,600 Speaker 1: joke here. I'm gonna let Maya explain this. 580 00:29:14,240 --> 00:29:15,880 Speaker 5: I talk about this episode all the time because I 581 00:29:15,920 --> 00:29:17,680 Speaker 5: do think it's pretty much the greatest, one of the 582 00:29:17,720 --> 00:29:18,600 Speaker 5: greatest episodes of. 583 00:29:18,560 --> 00:29:20,440 Speaker 4: Television in like the last ten years. 584 00:29:20,960 --> 00:29:23,960 Speaker 5: But in this episode, the Lebanese lesbian joke kind of 585 00:29:24,000 --> 00:29:27,120 Speaker 5: takes like a little bit of a different spin, even 586 00:29:27,200 --> 00:29:29,360 Speaker 5: though it's used in a similar way, but it's not 587 00:29:29,440 --> 00:29:33,040 Speaker 5: as jokey Lena Waite as the adult Denise. But here 588 00:29:33,080 --> 00:29:36,200 Speaker 5: you have like the teenage Denise speaking to dev the 589 00:29:36,280 --> 00:29:38,320 Speaker 5: childhood version of Ziz and Sorry's character. 590 00:29:38,680 --> 00:29:41,480 Speaker 2: But they have this conversation, where are you trying to 591 00:29:41,480 --> 00:29:43,200 Speaker 2: tell me that you're you know? 592 00:29:43,520 --> 00:29:45,080 Speaker 4: She says, like, you know, I'm Lebanese? 593 00:29:45,480 --> 00:29:49,080 Speaker 2: Lebanese? Wait, you're from Lebanon? No wat, I don't know 594 00:29:49,160 --> 00:29:52,280 Speaker 2: how to fet comfortable with the word a lesbian. 595 00:29:52,560 --> 00:29:55,320 Speaker 5: And she kind of uses that as a cover because 596 00:29:55,360 --> 00:29:57,520 Speaker 5: she's not ready to use the word lesbian or say 597 00:29:57,520 --> 00:30:01,200 Speaker 5: the word lesbian even as refer to herself who she 598 00:30:01,400 --> 00:30:04,520 Speaker 5: is or in conversation, because she's still kind of like 599 00:30:04,600 --> 00:30:07,720 Speaker 5: grappling with that reality, so she uses it as kind 600 00:30:07,720 --> 00:30:10,040 Speaker 5: of a substitute word that she's more comfortable saying. 601 00:30:11,040 --> 00:30:13,240 Speaker 1: I just love that so much because it's like we've 602 00:30:13,320 --> 00:30:18,200 Speaker 1: seen this plan words go from haha, wink wink, that's 603 00:30:18,200 --> 00:30:22,000 Speaker 1: what she said, joke to this actually really poignant moment 604 00:30:22,600 --> 00:30:27,880 Speaker 1: that allows this character to say how she identifies without 605 00:30:28,080 --> 00:30:29,200 Speaker 1: having to say it. 606 00:30:29,560 --> 00:30:31,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's really sweet in a way that this joke 607 00:30:32,000 --> 00:30:34,240 Speaker 2: that now that we've traced the history sort of started 608 00:30:34,280 --> 00:30:38,120 Speaker 2: in a way that was throwaway, really has become meaningful 609 00:30:38,160 --> 00:30:38,840 Speaker 2: for some people. 610 00:30:39,440 --> 00:30:41,200 Speaker 1: Okay, I have one other thing to tell you, which 611 00:30:41,240 --> 00:30:43,720 Speaker 1: is that as I was interviewing Maya, she'd been watching 612 00:30:43,800 --> 00:30:47,760 Speaker 1: RuPaul's Drag Race where this joke came up again, and 613 00:30:47,840 --> 00:30:48,720 Speaker 1: I couldn't believe. 614 00:30:48,480 --> 00:30:49,120 Speaker 4: When this happened. 615 00:30:49,120 --> 00:30:51,600 Speaker 5: It seemed like I was dreaming in a way because 616 00:30:51,600 --> 00:30:54,240 Speaker 5: it was so perfect, And. 617 00:30:54,200 --> 00:30:56,840 Speaker 1: So what was happening is Maya was watching this episode 618 00:30:56,840 --> 00:30:59,320 Speaker 1: of Drag Race where the queens are tasked in this 619 00:30:59,440 --> 00:31:02,800 Speaker 1: challenge with giving some lesbians a makeover. 620 00:31:02,600 --> 00:31:06,800 Speaker 5: Ruined Michelle have this exchange where Michellevissage asks, you know, 621 00:31:07,280 --> 00:31:07,800 Speaker 5: why are we. 622 00:31:07,800 --> 00:31:10,840 Speaker 4: Remaking, you know, Lebanese women, and it's. 623 00:31:10,720 --> 00:31:15,600 Speaker 2: Like, not Lebanese, Michelle, Le's bit lesbian. 624 00:31:16,080 --> 00:31:18,640 Speaker 4: And then you really have the full circle moment where 625 00:31:18,680 --> 00:31:19,520 Speaker 4: Michelle is like. 626 00:31:19,720 --> 00:31:20,880 Speaker 2: That sounds like fun. 627 00:31:22,480 --> 00:31:25,360 Speaker 5: Thanks, Golden Girls, and she looks at the camera and 628 00:31:25,400 --> 00:31:27,640 Speaker 5: wigs and I'm like, we're living in a simulation. 629 00:31:29,840 --> 00:31:34,280 Speaker 2: Oh my god, I mean it's perfect. 630 00:31:34,640 --> 00:31:37,280 Speaker 1: It's almost too perfect. And so I guess I don't know. 631 00:31:37,360 --> 00:31:40,960 Speaker 1: Somewhere in writer's rooms all over America, people are still 632 00:31:41,720 --> 00:31:44,280 Speaker 1: deciding that this is a joke worthy of telling. 633 00:31:44,480 --> 00:31:47,520 Speaker 2: That is beautiful. And I have to say that going 634 00:31:47,560 --> 00:31:50,480 Speaker 2: on this journey with you about this joke has made 635 00:31:50,480 --> 00:31:53,440 Speaker 2: me love the Golden Girls even more than I did before, 636 00:31:53,480 --> 00:31:55,120 Speaker 2: which I did not know was possible. 637 00:31:55,920 --> 00:31:59,480 Speaker 1: I love that and I'm so glad. And I also 638 00:31:59,560 --> 00:32:02,840 Speaker 1: have one more surprise for you, Yea, though it's not 639 00:32:02,880 --> 00:32:05,840 Speaker 1: actually for you, But do you remember when I told 640 00:32:05,880 --> 00:32:10,000 Speaker 1: you that Maya this is Maya Salaam. New York Times 641 00:32:10,000 --> 00:32:13,960 Speaker 1: culture editor, a very established journalist, was once the proud 642 00:32:14,000 --> 00:32:16,080 Speaker 1: owner of Lebanese lesbian. 643 00:32:15,720 --> 00:32:17,480 Speaker 2: Dot Course How could I forget such a thing? 644 00:32:17,920 --> 00:32:20,640 Speaker 1: How could you forget? Well, when we were talking, she 645 00:32:20,800 --> 00:32:24,719 Speaker 1: confessed to me that she actually let it lapse, and 646 00:32:25,320 --> 00:32:28,520 Speaker 1: I was horrified. I mean, like, honestly, that's pretty homophobic, 647 00:32:28,560 --> 00:32:32,240 Speaker 1: maybe even, and so you know, I did what a 648 00:32:32,280 --> 00:32:36,840 Speaker 1: good ally does. I decided to buy it for her. So, Susie, 649 00:32:37,000 --> 00:32:40,920 Speaker 1: you're now speaking to the owner of Lebanese lesbian dot com, 650 00:32:40,960 --> 00:32:43,920 Speaker 1: which honestly is probably appropriate. So I need to figure 651 00:32:43,960 --> 00:32:46,360 Speaker 1: out how to transfer this to Maya immediately. 652 00:32:46,480 --> 00:32:47,320 Speaker 2: That's really beautiful. 653 00:32:47,440 --> 00:32:52,760 Speaker 1: Congratulations Maya, and congratulations to Lebanese lesbians everywhere. 654 00:32:57,200 --> 00:32:59,040 Speaker 2: Jess, do you want to tell listeners we have coming 655 00:32:59,120 --> 00:32:59,920 Speaker 2: up next week? 656 00:33:00,840 --> 00:33:03,720 Speaker 1: Yes, it's an interview with the director of Bottoms, the 657 00:33:03,840 --> 00:33:07,320 Speaker 1: hilarious gay fight club comedy whose director happens to also 658 00:33:07,360 --> 00:33:09,600 Speaker 1: be the best friend of one of our producers, Sharon. 659 00:33:10,520 --> 00:33:12,160 Speaker 1: I knew that I wanted to make a teen comedy 660 00:33:12,200 --> 00:33:14,400 Speaker 1: and that I wanted it to be queer from the 661 00:33:14,440 --> 00:33:14,760 Speaker 1: get go. 662 00:33:14,960 --> 00:33:18,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, there was no we'll see what the sexualities of 663 00:33:18,560 --> 00:33:27,040 Speaker 2: these characters are. This is in retrospect. Thanks for listening. 664 00:33:27,560 --> 00:33:29,720 Speaker 2: Is there a pop culture moment you can't stop thinking 665 00:33:29,720 --> 00:33:32,240 Speaker 2: about and want us to explore in a future episode. 666 00:33:32,680 --> 00:33:35,840 Speaker 2: Email us at in Retropod at gmail dot com, or 667 00:33:35,880 --> 00:33:37,920 Speaker 2: find us on Instagram at in retropod. 668 00:33:38,720 --> 00:33:41,160 Speaker 1: If you love this podcast, please rate and review us 669 00:33:41,200 --> 00:33:44,000 Speaker 1: on Apple or Spotify or wherever you listen. If you 670 00:33:44,040 --> 00:33:46,480 Speaker 1: hate it, you can post nasty comments on our Instagram, 671 00:33:46,520 --> 00:33:48,280 Speaker 1: which we may or may not delete. 672 00:33:48,320 --> 00:33:50,960 Speaker 2: You can also find us on Instagram at Jessica Bennett 673 00:33:51,120 --> 00:33:54,480 Speaker 2: and at Susie b NYC. Also check out Jessica's books 674 00:33:54,520 --> 00:33:56,600 Speaker 2: Feminist Fight Club and This Is Eighteen. 675 00:33:57,360 --> 00:34:00,760 Speaker 1: In Retrospect is a production of iHeart podcast and the Media. 676 00:34:01,280 --> 00:34:04,840 Speaker 1: Lauren Anson is our supervising producer. Derek Clements is our 677 00:34:04,880 --> 00:34:09,080 Speaker 1: engineer and sound designer. Emily Meronoff is our producer. Sharan 678 00:34:09,160 --> 00:34:11,600 Speaker 1: Atia is our researcher and associate producer. 679 00:34:12,120 --> 00:34:15,120 Speaker 2: Our executive producer from the media is Cindy Levy. Our 680 00:34:15,160 --> 00:34:18,560 Speaker 2: executive producers from iHeart are Anna Stump and Katrina Norbel. 681 00:34:19,000 --> 00:34:22,600 Speaker 2: Our artwork is from Pentagram, additional editing help from Mary do. 682 00:34:23,320 --> 00:34:27,040 Speaker 2: Our mixing engineer is Amanda Rose Smith. We are your 683 00:34:27,040 --> 00:34:29,280 Speaker 2: hosts Susie Bannaccarum. 684 00:34:29,040 --> 00:34:32,719 Speaker 1: And Jessica Bennett. We are also executive producers for even 685 00:34:32,760 --> 00:34:36,439 Speaker 1: More check out in retropod dot com. See you next week.