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Speaker 1: This is an industry publication of record of years.

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Speaker 2: Now one hundred and twenty and I always add the

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Speaker 2: most important, the most publication of record.

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Speaker 1: For the sake of this interview, allow me to concur.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to Daily Variety, your daily dose of news and

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Speaker 2: analysis for entertainment industry insiders. It's Thursday, November sixth, twenty

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Speaker 2: twenty five. I'm your host, Cynthia Littleton. I am co

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Speaker 2: editor in chief of Variety alongside Ramin Setuda. I'm in

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Speaker 2: LA He's in New York, and Variety has reporters around

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Speaker 2: the world covering the business of entertainment. On today's episode,

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Speaker 2: we'll hear from actor Sean Aston in his first significant

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Speaker 2: interview since being elected president of sag after It in September.

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Speaker 2: We chop it up about a bunch of subjects, from

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Speaker 2: the guild's upcoming contract talks to the Tizzy over Tilly Norwood,

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Speaker 2: to Brian Cranston and Sora Too, to sag After's push

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Speaker 2: to establish union contracts for micro dramas. Aston is very

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Speaker 2: sharp on the issues and clearly dedicated to serving his

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Speaker 2: fellow performers. You'll get a good sense of his priorities

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Speaker 2: from our conversation that was aston you heard at the

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Speaker 2: start of this episode. He's a child of Hollywood and

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Speaker 2: it's great to know that he appreciates variety. But before

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Speaker 2: we get to that interview, here are a few headlines

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Speaker 2: just in this morning that you need to know. Warner

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Speaker 2: Brothers Discovery delivered its third quarter earnings before the bell,

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Speaker 2: and it was a mixed bag. The Warner Brothers Studio

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Speaker 2: and HBO are humming along advertising sales that the linear

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Speaker 2: cable networks were soft, which put a dent in the

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Speaker 2: bottom line. Of course, BBD is officially now up for sale.

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Speaker 2: CEO David Zaslov barely addressed that or the paramount bids

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Speaker 2: that we know have been fielded in recent weeks. It's

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Speaker 2: the typical we can't comment on m and a speculation

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Speaker 2: tap dance that happens on earnings calls when companies are

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Speaker 2: in play. But the subtext of every thing that Zaslov

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Speaker 2: and senior executives Gunner Widenfels and JB. Perett said on

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Speaker 2: the call was pretty clear. They're planning out a future

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Speaker 2: that they might not be executing for much longer. ESPN

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Speaker 2: has broken up with its sports gambling partner Pan Entertainment

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Speaker 2: to set up a new deal with Draft Kings. The

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Speaker 2: ESPN bet brand will be integrated into Draft Kings sportsbooks properties.

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Speaker 2: I've said this before, I'd be willing to pay a

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Speaker 2: couple extra bucks a month for an ESPN without all

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Speaker 2: the gambling pitches. And finally, this sounds like a ton

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Speaker 2: of fun. Emma Stone, Jennifer Lawrence and Cola Scola developing

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Speaker 2: a movie for Disney about Miss Piggy. Yes.

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Speaker 1: Please.

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Speaker 2: All of these stories and so much more can be

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Speaker 2: found on Variety dot com right now. Now we turn

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Speaker 2: to a conversation about news and trends and showbiz with

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Speaker 2: Sean Aston, president of sag aftra. Aston has been involved

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Speaker 2: with the union for a long time and it shows

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Speaker 2: he's the definition of a working actor and you can

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Speaker 2: tell how much he cares about his profession. A longer

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Speaker 2: version of this interview is available as a Q and

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Speaker 2: A right now on Variety dot com. Please listen up

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Speaker 2: here and then go read the rest online and on

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Speaker 2: our social platforms. Sean Aston, thank you so much for

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Speaker 2: joining me and congratulations on being elected president of sag After.

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Speaker 2: Thank you very much so you've been active with sag

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Speaker 2: After for a long time, you're no stranger to the organization.

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Speaker 2: What's really impressed upon you as the most pressing issues

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Speaker 2: right now for actors.

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Speaker 1: Well, my approach coming in was going to be to

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Speaker 1: spend a month or two looking inward and really try

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Speaker 1: and understand from the President's office things that you don't

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Speaker 1: necessarily have access to even if you're on the board.

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Speaker 1: But to your question, it's just amazing how quickly world

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Speaker 1: events and industry wide events seem to grab a hold

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Speaker 1: of my focus. Jimmy Kimmel was fired from his job.

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Speaker 2: I have to correct you a little bit.

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Speaker 1: He was benched.

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Speaker 2: He looked like he was in danger of getting fired.

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Speaker 1: So I suppose that's an important legal nuance. But if

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Speaker 1: you're Jimmy Kimmel or anyone on that show, it sure

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Speaker 1: feels like a firing. Then the government threatens you, and

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Speaker 1: then you are treated by your affiliates in a manner

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Speaker 1: that is less than cordial or consistent with your contract.

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Speaker 1: So in other situations like that, we haven't spoken up

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Speaker 1: as much because the rationale given by the producers or

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Speaker 1: the companies or whatever have been somewhat more credible. But

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Speaker 1: this was a situation where the government had specifically intervened

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Speaker 1: with a threat.

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Speaker 2: When you have the FCC chairman going on a podcast

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Speaker 2: and making threats against Disney ABC, these are unprecedented times.

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Speaker 2: Did you feel like immediately like sag After needs to

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Speaker 2: have a voice in this well.

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Speaker 1: He's working under a sag after sag After set. We

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Speaker 1: were very careful not to level our comments at the

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Speaker 1: very beginning above the affiliates. The affiliates were ones that

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Speaker 1: were making the decisions they made, so we try to

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Speaker 1: focus our comments on that. I think our union has

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Speaker 1: a slightly different posture when it comes to speaking out

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Speaker 1: on these issues because we our people are very recognizable

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Speaker 1: to the public, and so when we say things and

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Speaker 1: when our organization makes public commentary, you know, we have

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Speaker 1: to make sure that our reputation can stand behind it,

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Speaker 1: and it did in that scenario. The other people were

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Speaker 1: out in the streets and individual members were protesting as well.

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Speaker 1: But that was just the first thing that was like

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Speaker 1: the first week or something. There's been other stuff. The

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Speaker 1: Tilly Norwood thing comes out, and actually it was almost

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Speaker 1: a helpful moment in articular why there should be such

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Speaker 1: strong pushback against industry and tech because it was framed

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Speaker 1: as though this artificial construct is fictional character and be

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Speaker 1: created was going to cause some sort of uproar in

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Speaker 1: the agency business if it's a great trope. If you know,

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Speaker 1: a young ingew is discovered and becomes a big star

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Speaker 1: and all this stuff, and it was but it was

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Speaker 1: all fake. It was all fake and it was all engineered.

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Speaker 1: So I just thought it was a fantastic opportunity to

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Speaker 1: be able to see that the public was focusing its

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Speaker 1: attention on this and help direct that attention from the

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Speaker 1: perspective of performers who are not going to be displaced.

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Speaker 2: All about synthetic eve is what came to mind, is

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Speaker 2: you we're talking, but the larger significance is like putting

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Speaker 2: language in your contracts that this work has to be

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Speaker 2: done by humans. Is you know, these are almost like

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Speaker 2: Arthur C. Clerk concepts that are hard to fathom, I

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Speaker 2: would imagine, and that a lot of the guilds work

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Speaker 2: on policy and looking for the cutting edge of the

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Speaker 2: next contract is imagining the impossible. A few years ago

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Speaker 2: we would have said a Tilly Norwood situation is not possible,

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Speaker 2: and now it is. That's got to be pretty daunting.

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Speaker 1: Well, it requires absolute focus to protect our workforce. You know,

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Speaker 1: it wasn't a threat in the way that it was

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Speaker 1: being marketed that agents were all of a sudden going

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Speaker 1: to begin moving out of the talent representation business and

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Speaker 1: into the synthetic data management business or something. But the

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Speaker 1: actual technology itself, the idea of artificial intelligence and synthetic

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Speaker 1: creations that are lifelike and are seem real, that's an

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Speaker 1: absolute threat. We've seen that coming for a long time.

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Speaker 1: So no, I really appreciate what you said, because we

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Speaker 1: are in the vanguard. We are the absolute industry leaders

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Speaker 1: at helping to shape policy in this space, at least

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Speaker 1: in the entertainment space. Our lawyers helped draft the language

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Speaker 1: that's in some of these AI protection bills, and Governor

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Speaker 1: Newsom came to our building fifty seven to fifty seven

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Speaker 1: Whelshare to sign a couple of pieces of legislation that

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Speaker 1: we were influential in helping to move into law. I'm

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Speaker 1: proud of it because I've seen it in action. I

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Speaker 1: did a congressional roundtable with a Daryl Isia downtown LA.

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Speaker 1: They had one of those mobile congressional hearings, and I

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Speaker 1: was the only labor representative at a table that was

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Speaker 1: filled with general counsel. And it was interesting that when

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Speaker 1: I was speaking about human centered performance and the need

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Speaker 1: to protect not just our name, imagine likeness, not just

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Speaker 1: our right of publicity, but like our very dignity, our humanness,

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Speaker 1: these lawyers, who are very skilled people like keeping a

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Speaker 1: poker face, they were nodding. Yes, there is a lot

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Speaker 1: of overlap in what it means to protect our information,

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Speaker 1: our data, their libraries, our identities.

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Speaker 2: Can I press you for any specifics, because of course

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Speaker 2: next year you are going to go into another contract situation.

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Speaker 2: Any specifics in terms of what you've learned in the

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Speaker 2: last couple of years about where more teeth needs to

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Speaker 2: put into legislation.

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Speaker 1: Data tracking, Data tracking, that's the new frontier. I mean, listen,

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Speaker 1: I'm just one person and my role as president is

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Speaker 1: to help guide a team to a great conclusion about

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Speaker 1: whatever proposal packet we want to bring across. But I'll

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Speaker 1: be in the room arguing very you know, vigorously. If

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Speaker 1: you used to hear about water marking, you hear about

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Speaker 1: blockchain technology. The basic premise of what I want to

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Speaker 1: see as a lay person is that when things are

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Speaker 1: ingested into their large models, they can't track them that's

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Speaker 1: a lie. They lied about it before. If they lie

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Speaker 1: about it again, we're going to call them on that lie.

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Speaker 1: I don't generally like calling people a liar, but we

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Speaker 1: absolutely know now that data can be tracked. They may

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Speaker 1: not want it to be tracked because once they realize

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Speaker 1: on the other side, when a digital creator is put together,

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Speaker 1: they may realize that there are a number of you know,

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Speaker 1: I don't even know how many performers work that has

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Speaker 1: been ingested and spit out. That just seems to me

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Speaker 1: like the lowest hanging fruit in terms of conceptually what

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Speaker 1: we want to be able to do. But I am

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Speaker 1: not the expert in knowing how we're going to attack

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Speaker 1: the AI argument. What I do know is that I'm

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Speaker 1: going to help manage a team of experts so that

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Speaker 1: when we get to that moment, there shouldn't be any

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Speaker 1: surprise when we walk into that room. Everybody should know

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Speaker 1: exactly what's at stake, and I hope that we can

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Speaker 1: work together to design and agree because we all know

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Speaker 1: what's needed is policy is law.

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Speaker 2: Fundamentally, this is a copyright based business. Fundamentally, the studios

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Speaker 2: and the artists should be aligned on whatever it takes

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Speaker 2: to protect the efficacy of our copyright, but as always,

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Speaker 2: the devil is in the details.

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Speaker 1: We had one of our members, Brian Kranston, I.

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Speaker 2: Was just about to ask you about the Sora Too situation.

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Speaker 2: Can you give me a little backstory about how that

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Speaker 2: came together and how Brian happened to be the spokes

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Speaker 2: the push that you made for them to make the

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Speaker 2: adjustments that they did.

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Speaker 1: So we did not invent this moment, but we are

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Speaker 1: living in it. And when the Tillie Norwood thing happened

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Speaker 1: and we saw the pushback of Duncan Crabtree Ireland, our

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Speaker 1: national executive director in chief negotiator and I penned a

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Speaker 1: letter to our members and it took us. Took a

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Speaker 1: lot of time, but we felt that it was important

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Speaker 1: to really invest the right kind of time and energy

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Speaker 1: to compose a communication that level set to our members

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Speaker 1: where their leadership sees this moment and got a wonderful response.

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Speaker 1: Members really seem to appreciate the time we took and

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Speaker 1: what we said that the positions we laid out. I'm

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Speaker 1: sure some would feel that it didn't go far enough,

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Speaker 1: but the response was really wonderful. I had just made

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Speaker 1: a movie with Brian Cranston in the summer called Chili

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Speaker 1: Finger with John Goodman and he and Judy Graham myself,

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Speaker 1: and we just had a great time. It's a great cast.

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Speaker 1: It's gonna be a great little movie. But he called

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Speaker 1: me or sent me a text or something like that

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Speaker 1: right after he read that, and he said, that letter

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Speaker 1: is incredible, Sean, that's really really great. Thank you so

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Speaker 1: much for writing it. It gives me so much comfort.

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Speaker 1: And I said, oh, thanks, man, you know, how are you.

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Speaker 1: His next email came back saying, I just got contacted

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Speaker 1: by a reporter because Walter White, his famous character from

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Speaker 1: Breaking Bad, was appeared on a street corner with Michael

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Speaker 1: Jackson in some amusing way. Oh. He put the link

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Speaker 1: in there, and I looked at it and I was like,

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Speaker 1: I thought, wow. He said, I don't want to answer

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Speaker 1: the questions until I've talked to my union, and I

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Speaker 1: know that whatever our approach is, that I'm working in

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Speaker 1: concert with what the union's approaches, which to me, you know,

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Speaker 1: was absolutely makes me want to cry, because because for

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Speaker 1: someone of his level of success and familiarity with the public,

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Speaker 1: his voice carries very far. For his first instinct to

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Speaker 1: be check with the union. I just thought, man, I

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Speaker 1: hope that a lot of the other union members that

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Speaker 1: we have think about that. So we were ready to fight.

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Speaker 1: But then our policy making team, Jeffrey Bennett and others said, well,

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Speaker 1: actually open AI has said that they're going to change

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Speaker 1: their opt out to opt in. And the opt out

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Speaker 1: thing is the most ludicrous piece of garbage I had

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Speaker 1: ever heard in my life. This is where if you

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Speaker 1: somehow happen to find somewhere in the ether that your

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Speaker 1: likeness has been used, you can try and find a

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Speaker 1: phone number for somebody at whatever company is using it

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Speaker 1: and see if would you please mind not using my image?

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Speaker 1: And that just seemed criminal to me. So, but apparently

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Speaker 1: Sam Altman and open AI had said previously that they

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Speaker 1: were going to change that to an opt in process,

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Speaker 1: which is like they won't use it unless they've asked

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Speaker 1: you and you've agreed to use it, which essentially is

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Speaker 1: what we have in our contract right now. You just

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Speaker 1: have to notify us and get our permission and pay us.

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Speaker 1: Right after the Tille Norwood thing happened with the Sora stuff,

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Speaker 1: but at this moment, they were really indicating to us

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Speaker 1: that they wanted to cooperate, and it just became clear

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Speaker 1: to me that it's in their interest to cooperate with us.

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Speaker 1: So I feel like that's their relationship to the public

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Speaker 1: and their customers. I think was something that was also

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Speaker 1: in their mind. But they were willing to support our

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Speaker 1: no fakes legislation. I mean the whole industry and not

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Speaker 1: just like sag After, but everybody is trying to get

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Speaker 1: this no Fakesact through. I said, well, let's do a

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Speaker 1: joint statement then, and everybody got excited about it. It

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Speaker 1: was like, great. I don't want to over praise the moment,

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Speaker 1: but the fact that they took it down said they

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Speaker 1: didn't want to do that in the future and would

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Speaker 1: support the AI safety legislation we were pursuing. That seemed

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Speaker 1: like a good way to find collaboration with them, and

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Speaker 1: I hope there's a lot more of that in the future.

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Speaker 2: Seg After was very early to come out with a

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Speaker 2: low budget vertical content contract. A variety has been writing

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Speaker 2: about micro dramas right and left, definitely big overseas. It

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Speaker 2: seemed like it was important for the Guild to get

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Speaker 2: out there and say we're recognizing this activity is happening.

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Speaker 2: Do you have a sense that it will be significant

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Speaker 2: for your.

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Speaker 1: Members personally, I do. I think the issue is in

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Speaker 1: doubt whether it will in fact scale in this country

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Speaker 1: the way it did in China. But our members were

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Speaker 1: working in this space, and it was really important for

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Speaker 1: us to create the same safety mechanisms for them that

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Speaker 1: people have working elsewhere. Because it is professional work. It

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Speaker 1: was not an easy thing to organize the verticals space.

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Speaker 1: It's a promulgated contract, which means that it's a one off.

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Speaker 1: So if as I sense, might happen, and we see

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Speaker 1: lots of evidence of this every day, the larger companies

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Speaker 1: decide to get into the game, we have the right

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Speaker 1: to adjust upward any of the terms and conditions that

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Speaker 1: we are offering.

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Speaker 2: Sean, thank you so much for your time. Really appreciate it,

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Speaker 2: and we'll certainly be talking.

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Speaker 1: Thank you, Cynthia be well.

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Speaker 2: As we close out today's episode. Here's a few things

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Speaker 2: we're watching for. My colleague Ethan Shanfeld will do an

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Speaker 2: on stage Q and A with Jim Gaffagin on Sunday,

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Speaker 2: November ninth as part of the New York Comedy Festival.

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Speaker 2: Gaffagin is receiving the Comedy Vanguard award from Variety. Look

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Speaker 2: for the video next week on Variety dot com. On Saturday,

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Speaker 2: November eighth, there will be a memorial service held for

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Speaker 2: Bob Broder, the longtime agent and Chuck Lori Productions executive.

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Speaker 2: It'll be held on the Warner Brothers lot as it

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Speaker 2: should be. Next week, Variety will be all about the

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Speaker 2: American Film Market, which opens Tuesday in Los Angeles. We'll

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Speaker 2: be hearing on Daily Variety from Elsa Caslasi, terrific international editor,

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Speaker 2: who is coming in from Paris as usual to cover

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Speaker 2: the market before we go. Congrats to Christian Oastling. He's

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Speaker 2: been promoted at YouTube to VP of Subscription Products, reporting

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Speaker 2: to CEO Neil Mohan. He joined YouTube in twenty fifteen

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Speaker 2: from Twitter. Thanks for listening. This episode was written and

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Speaker 2: reported by me Cynthia Littleton Stick Snick's hick Picks. Please

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Speaker 2: leave us a review at the podcast platform of your choice,

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Speaker 2: and please tune in Monday for another episode of Daily

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Speaker 2: Variety