1 00:00:06,000 --> 00:00:09,840 Speaker 1: We're talking about the disappearance of a gorgeous, young, diminutive woman, 2 00:00:10,000 --> 00:00:14,560 Speaker 1: Shannon Graves, who goes missing. Yet neighbor series driving by 3 00:00:14,560 --> 00:00:17,279 Speaker 1: in her car with her dog. So how she missing? Well, 4 00:00:17,480 --> 00:00:19,160 Speaker 1: I don't know the answer to that yet, but I 5 00:00:19,200 --> 00:00:22,680 Speaker 1: do know this, A body turns up in a friend's freezer. 6 00:00:29,800 --> 00:00:40,600 Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. A twenty eight year old 7 00:00:40,760 --> 00:00:47,320 Speaker 1: young woman goes missing. What happened to Shannon? I'm Nancy Grace. 8 00:00:47,400 --> 00:00:49,800 Speaker 1: This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us here. 9 00:00:50,200 --> 00:00:55,160 Speaker 1: Take a listen to Crime Onlines, John Limley. Shannon Graves 10 00:00:55,240 --> 00:00:57,920 Speaker 1: had not been seen for months. This is what her 11 00:00:57,960 --> 00:01:01,600 Speaker 1: family told police when they followed missing persons report in 12 00:01:01,880 --> 00:01:07,760 Speaker 1: June twenty seventeen. Her half sister, Debbie DePaul, told reporters 13 00:01:07,800 --> 00:01:12,360 Speaker 1: that graves friends last saw her in February, but she 14 00:01:12,480 --> 00:01:16,200 Speaker 1: also said it wasn't unusual for Shannon to go for 15 00:01:16,240 --> 00:01:20,480 Speaker 1: some time without talking with her family. Now, what was 16 00:01:20,640 --> 00:01:23,600 Speaker 1: unusual for the twenty eight year old was to leave 17 00:01:23,680 --> 00:01:28,720 Speaker 1: home without her car, her dog, and her phone. All 18 00:01:28,880 --> 00:01:33,000 Speaker 1: three were left behind, something to keep in mind. De 19 00:01:33,160 --> 00:01:38,280 Speaker 1: Paul described the woman as pretty petite. She was rather small, 20 00:01:38,520 --> 00:01:41,679 Speaker 1: but with a big personality, and when it comes to 21 00:01:41,720 --> 00:01:45,000 Speaker 1: her size, she was exactly right when she went missing. 22 00:01:45,080 --> 00:01:48,840 Speaker 1: Graves was four foot eleven and she weighed about ninety 23 00:01:48,880 --> 00:01:52,600 Speaker 1: eight pounds. Is this all a big hoax? Because after 24 00:01:52,880 --> 00:01:57,320 Speaker 1: she's reported missing, she's seen driving her car, her credit 25 00:01:57,360 --> 00:02:00,360 Speaker 1: card is ye, she's even walking her dog. But yet 26 00:02:00,480 --> 00:02:05,720 Speaker 1: she's seemingly has vanished from the lives of everyone. Sheet 27 00:02:05,920 --> 00:02:10,640 Speaker 1: knows what is happening to Shannon Again, thank you for 28 00:02:10,680 --> 00:02:13,120 Speaker 1: being with us here at Fox Nation and Series one 29 00:02:13,240 --> 00:02:17,560 Speaker 1: eleven with me an all star panel. Former felony prosecutor 30 00:02:17,600 --> 00:02:20,440 Speaker 1: now defense attorney DARYLD Cohen joining me from the Atlanta 31 00:02:20,520 --> 00:02:25,320 Speaker 1: Jurisdiction Psychoanalyst to the Stars, doctor Bethany Marshall joining me 32 00:02:25,400 --> 00:02:31,040 Speaker 1: from La Stephen Lampley, detective and author Outside Your Door 33 00:02:31,040 --> 00:02:35,239 Speaker 1: at Stephen Lampley dot com. Former Chief medical Examiner for 34 00:02:35,280 --> 00:02:39,680 Speaker 1: the entire State of Georgia, doctor Chris Sperry, and lead 35 00:02:39,919 --> 00:02:45,680 Speaker 1: news anchor WDBO Morning Ray Kiputo, Ray, I want to 36 00:02:45,720 --> 00:02:50,160 Speaker 1: talk about first, Shannon Gray. She's just twenty eight years old, 37 00:02:50,160 --> 00:02:55,680 Speaker 1: but she's barely five feet tall. She only weighs, you know, 38 00:02:56,480 --> 00:03:01,440 Speaker 1: ninety one hundred pounds. She's a tiny tiny, diminutive woman. 39 00:03:01,840 --> 00:03:06,920 Speaker 1: Just beautiful. I might add, she looks like somebody on TV. 40 00:03:07,080 --> 00:03:09,680 Speaker 1: I'm trying to figure out who that is. She looks 41 00:03:09,680 --> 00:03:17,200 Speaker 1: like anyway, gorgeous, and she's reported missing. Tell me about 42 00:03:17,760 --> 00:03:22,720 Speaker 1: who reported her missing and how they noticed she was missing. Well, Nancy, 43 00:03:22,760 --> 00:03:25,760 Speaker 1: it wasn't uncommon, according to family members, for Shannon to 44 00:03:25,800 --> 00:03:29,200 Speaker 1: go long periods of time without contacting family members. So 45 00:03:29,560 --> 00:03:33,120 Speaker 1: when she first kind of people noticed that she wasn't around, 46 00:03:33,200 --> 00:03:35,400 Speaker 1: it wasn't like, you know, somebody you see every day 47 00:03:35,400 --> 00:03:38,000 Speaker 1: where you immediately notice that. She was last seen on 48 00:03:38,120 --> 00:03:41,480 Speaker 1: Christmas Day in twenty sixteen, and then her sister said 49 00:03:41,520 --> 00:03:44,200 Speaker 1: she saw her a couple months later in mid Sebruary. 50 00:03:44,240 --> 00:03:46,920 Speaker 1: But again it's kind of abnormal. You'd think when somebody 51 00:03:46,920 --> 00:03:49,600 Speaker 1: goes missing in a matter of days, people notice, but 52 00:03:49,640 --> 00:03:52,000 Speaker 1: it wasn't like that with Shannon. So she was last 53 00:03:52,000 --> 00:03:55,760 Speaker 1: seeing that February by her sister. You know, that's how 54 00:03:55,760 --> 00:03:59,720 Speaker 1: people fall through the cracks, Doctor Bethany Marshall, because I've 55 00:03:59,760 --> 00:04:02,880 Speaker 1: told to this story my mom. This is when you 56 00:04:03,000 --> 00:04:07,560 Speaker 1: still got charged for a long distance call. My mom worked, 57 00:04:07,680 --> 00:04:11,520 Speaker 1: you know, thirty forty minutes from her home and the 58 00:04:11,720 --> 00:04:14,000 Speaker 1: moment she got to work. They had what was called 59 00:04:14,080 --> 00:04:17,279 Speaker 1: a Watts line at the times, an eight hundred number, 60 00:04:17,640 --> 00:04:19,600 Speaker 1: so the moment she got there, she would get there 61 00:04:19,600 --> 00:04:22,400 Speaker 1: at seven o'clock in the morning. Wherever I was in 62 00:04:22,440 --> 00:04:25,680 Speaker 1: the world, she'd call me to make sure I was up, 63 00:04:25,720 --> 00:04:28,039 Speaker 1: getting ready to go to court, or had already left. 64 00:04:28,560 --> 00:04:31,560 Speaker 1: She would call me immediately the moment she got there, 65 00:04:32,200 --> 00:04:35,080 Speaker 1: and we were in touch every day, and typically on 66 00:04:35,120 --> 00:04:37,720 Speaker 1: my way home from work, I'd call my dad. My 67 00:04:37,800 --> 00:04:40,240 Speaker 1: mom talked to them on the way home, so that 68 00:04:40,360 --> 00:04:45,960 Speaker 1: was a regular routine. She did not have that routine, 69 00:04:46,360 --> 00:04:49,720 Speaker 1: so the family after they see her in February, didn't 70 00:04:49,760 --> 00:04:53,880 Speaker 1: realize she was missing for a period of months. Bethany Nancy, 71 00:04:54,120 --> 00:04:57,320 Speaker 1: this is so unusual because all of the cases we 72 00:04:57,680 --> 00:05:01,359 Speaker 1: cover think about it. Usually it's co workers, Like with 73 00:05:01,440 --> 00:05:04,360 Speaker 1: your mom, the co workers say, hey, the employee has 74 00:05:04,400 --> 00:05:07,480 Speaker 1: not shown up for work, or the person vanishes on 75 00:05:07,520 --> 00:05:11,640 Speaker 1: social media they stopped posting on Instagram or Facebook, or 76 00:05:11,680 --> 00:05:14,440 Speaker 1: the most important call of the day to your mother. Right, 77 00:05:14,560 --> 00:05:18,160 Speaker 1: it's always the mothers who know these young women. Shannon 78 00:05:18,240 --> 00:05:21,360 Speaker 1: Graves was what twenty seven, twenty eight years old. When 79 00:05:21,360 --> 00:05:25,279 Speaker 1: I was that age, I called my mother all the time. 80 00:05:25,720 --> 00:05:28,320 Speaker 1: I would never have been able to go two or 81 00:05:28,320 --> 00:05:31,839 Speaker 1: three days without talking to a family member. So, you know, 82 00:05:31,960 --> 00:05:34,800 Speaker 1: the positive side was that she was a pretty spirit. 83 00:05:34,920 --> 00:05:38,120 Speaker 1: She loved to drive around with her dog and everything. 84 00:05:38,320 --> 00:05:41,719 Speaker 1: The negative side is that she seems to be either 85 00:05:41,800 --> 00:05:47,520 Speaker 1: an introvert or isolated, having a very low need for 86 00:05:47,680 --> 00:05:51,200 Speaker 1: contact with family members. And as you know, Nancy and 87 00:05:51,240 --> 00:05:54,120 Speaker 1: you're talking about, that really put her at risk. It 88 00:05:54,160 --> 00:05:57,320 Speaker 1: really did. You know what I'm thinking about, how she 89 00:05:57,520 --> 00:06:02,520 Speaker 1: could have gone period of months with no one realizing 90 00:06:03,000 --> 00:06:08,239 Speaker 1: she was gone. Maybe she had mentioned a vacation. Maybe 91 00:06:08,240 --> 00:06:11,440 Speaker 1: she went on a vacation nobody knew, but we don't 92 00:06:11,520 --> 00:06:15,400 Speaker 1: know how many days had really passed that Shannon had 93 00:06:15,600 --> 00:06:19,760 Speaker 1: actually been missing. The other thing it points to would 94 00:06:19,800 --> 00:06:23,400 Speaker 1: be a possible DV situation domestic violence. I was thinking, 95 00:06:23,880 --> 00:06:28,719 Speaker 1: what young woman falls out of contact with everybody in 96 00:06:28,760 --> 00:06:32,080 Speaker 1: their life, maybe if she had a very controlling boyfriend. 97 00:06:32,080 --> 00:06:34,760 Speaker 1: I don't know much about the boyfriend, and this piece, well, 98 00:06:34,880 --> 00:06:39,120 Speaker 1: we don't know anything at all about domestic abuse. But 99 00:06:39,160 --> 00:06:43,120 Speaker 1: what we do know is that she seemingly dropped off 100 00:06:43,160 --> 00:06:46,120 Speaker 1: the face of the earth. But then there were conflicting 101 00:06:46,160 --> 00:06:51,440 Speaker 1: reports neighbors and others saw her driving her car, which 102 00:06:51,440 --> 00:06:55,520 Speaker 1: we heard was abandoned. They see her with her dog, 103 00:06:56,200 --> 00:07:00,719 Speaker 1: which we were told was left alone back at the apartment. 104 00:07:01,279 --> 00:07:06,040 Speaker 1: Her credit cards, her ATMs were used to suggest that 105 00:07:06,080 --> 00:07:09,720 Speaker 1: she was still alive and not missing at all. Is 106 00:07:09,760 --> 00:07:12,560 Speaker 1: Bethany Wright? Is she hiding out from some lover she 107 00:07:12,600 --> 00:07:15,760 Speaker 1: wants to get away from? To see her walking her 108 00:07:15,800 --> 00:07:18,520 Speaker 1: dog out in the open, to see her drive by 109 00:07:18,600 --> 00:07:20,960 Speaker 1: in her car with her dog in the car. That 110 00:07:21,120 --> 00:07:27,040 Speaker 1: seemed to dispel police's fears because the suggestions that she 111 00:07:27,360 --> 00:07:30,800 Speaker 1: was missing or even dead, that didn't jive with the 112 00:07:30,840 --> 00:07:34,320 Speaker 1: fact that she's spotted in her own car in her 113 00:07:34,360 --> 00:07:38,840 Speaker 1: own neighborhood with her dog. Now the sister, the half 114 00:07:38,880 --> 00:07:44,120 Speaker 1: sister tells us she was missing, her dog was left behind, 115 00:07:44,600 --> 00:07:49,560 Speaker 1: her other objects like pocketbook and so forth, all left behind. 116 00:07:49,920 --> 00:07:53,720 Speaker 1: She was the only one missing, Yet neighbors have spotted 117 00:07:53,760 --> 00:07:57,560 Speaker 1: her in the neighborhood in her car. That doesn't fit together. 118 00:07:58,240 --> 00:08:01,200 Speaker 1: So there you have the dichotomy. Year Cohen. Fancy, do 119 00:08:01,280 --> 00:08:04,080 Speaker 1: they really see her drive by or did they see 120 00:08:04,080 --> 00:08:07,960 Speaker 1: her car and they assume that she's the one driving it. 121 00:08:08,280 --> 00:08:11,040 Speaker 1: Did they see her drive by? Is there a dog 122 00:08:11,080 --> 00:08:13,760 Speaker 1: in the car, they see the dog, they once again 123 00:08:13,800 --> 00:08:17,280 Speaker 1: assume as her Is that really what happened? Yes, it's 124 00:08:17,320 --> 00:08:37,400 Speaker 1: her dog and her car. Time Stories with Nancy Grace. Guys, 125 00:08:37,400 --> 00:08:41,760 Speaker 1: we're talking about the mysterious disappearance of a young woman 126 00:08:41,960 --> 00:08:47,760 Speaker 1: or youngstown. Then there seems to be a break in 127 00:08:47,800 --> 00:08:52,800 Speaker 1: the case. Take a listen to Janet Rogers WF m J. 128 00:08:53,320 --> 00:08:57,160 Speaker 1: They have an autistic son. They were going to She 129 00:08:57,280 --> 00:09:01,120 Speaker 1: was going to make spaghetti, and so she opened the 130 00:09:01,160 --> 00:09:05,240 Speaker 1: freezer lock the three screws that took the pad lock 131 00:09:05,360 --> 00:09:08,880 Speaker 1: off so she could open it. And when she looked inside, 132 00:09:08,920 --> 00:09:14,559 Speaker 1: she saw garbage bags and a garbage bag and a pail, 133 00:09:14,679 --> 00:09:18,640 Speaker 1: and she basically thought something was very wrong. She screwed 134 00:09:18,640 --> 00:09:21,840 Speaker 1: it back on, and when her husband came home, she said, 135 00:09:21,960 --> 00:09:25,199 Speaker 1: something is really wrong. I was going to make spaghetti 136 00:09:25,240 --> 00:09:28,719 Speaker 1: for our son. He's autistic. Guinea loves spaghetti, and she 137 00:09:29,080 --> 00:09:32,200 Speaker 1: was going to get some meat and replace it. And 138 00:09:32,640 --> 00:09:36,000 Speaker 1: he said it took him about five minutes before he 139 00:09:36,040 --> 00:09:39,839 Speaker 1: could even go look because then suddenly he started fearing 140 00:09:39,880 --> 00:09:42,800 Speaker 1: the worst because he did know Shannon Graves. She had 141 00:09:42,800 --> 00:09:46,320 Speaker 1: spent time at the home. He thought she was a 142 00:09:46,440 --> 00:09:52,240 Speaker 1: very polite, very nice woman. And was just terrified because 143 00:09:52,679 --> 00:09:57,200 Speaker 1: suddenly things started adding up she had been missing. Okay, 144 00:09:57,280 --> 00:10:00,920 Speaker 1: that's really weird, and I'll tell you why. Just night 145 00:10:00,920 --> 00:10:04,079 Speaker 1: before last, I see something in the freezer. I'm looking 146 00:10:04,200 --> 00:10:06,680 Speaker 1: for ice cream for John David, of course, and I 147 00:10:06,760 --> 00:10:10,120 Speaker 1: see something wrapped in tinfoil. I have no idea what 148 00:10:10,160 --> 00:10:12,400 Speaker 1: it is. It's not marked, so I took it out 149 00:10:12,440 --> 00:10:15,520 Speaker 1: and thought it out. It was this giant thing of meatloaf. 150 00:10:15,880 --> 00:10:19,400 Speaker 1: My mom had made god Elino's win and had bundled 151 00:10:19,400 --> 00:10:22,120 Speaker 1: in his huge thing of tinfoil and put it in 152 00:10:22,240 --> 00:10:26,359 Speaker 1: a plastic bag. You know, I never once thought, Wow, 153 00:10:27,160 --> 00:10:32,120 Speaker 1: could that be so and So's missing foot? Could I 154 00:10:32,360 --> 00:10:37,560 Speaker 1: never would dawn on me that an unknown or unidentifiable 155 00:10:37,840 --> 00:10:43,840 Speaker 1: frozen object could be a body part. But this guy says, 156 00:10:44,160 --> 00:10:48,240 Speaker 1: the first thing he thought was, oh, that's Shannon. That's 157 00:10:48,280 --> 00:10:52,560 Speaker 1: Shannon in my freezer. See, those two things do not 158 00:10:52,679 --> 00:10:57,520 Speaker 1: fit together for me. Plus, how do you explain neighbors 159 00:10:57,559 --> 00:11:00,800 Speaker 1: seeing her driving around the neighborhood in her car with 160 00:11:00,840 --> 00:11:04,720 Speaker 1: her a dog. So this mom says she wanted to 161 00:11:04,720 --> 00:11:08,840 Speaker 1: make spaghetti for her son, goes down, opens the freezer 162 00:11:09,200 --> 00:11:13,680 Speaker 1: and says garbage bags and the husband immediately goes, oh, yeah, 163 00:11:13,800 --> 00:11:18,520 Speaker 1: I bet that's the missing woman. Shannon, Hmmm. Take a 164 00:11:18,559 --> 00:11:23,600 Speaker 1: listen to more Janet Rogers wf m J. When he 165 00:11:23,679 --> 00:11:26,160 Speaker 1: finally got up the courage to go look in the freezer, 166 00:11:26,559 --> 00:11:31,880 Speaker 1: he saw the garbage bags. He basically tried to open it. 167 00:11:31,880 --> 00:11:35,280 Speaker 1: It was frozen solid and he said that he tried 168 00:11:35,880 --> 00:11:38,959 Speaker 1: and that didn't work. So he went and he got 169 00:11:40,080 --> 00:11:43,840 Speaker 1: you know, he got a knife and he cut one 170 00:11:43,880 --> 00:11:46,640 Speaker 1: bag and he said it was a heavy duty contractor's bag. 171 00:11:46,960 --> 00:11:49,600 Speaker 1: And then he got to another layer and there was 172 00:11:49,640 --> 00:11:52,760 Speaker 1: another bag, and then then it is when the smell 173 00:11:52,880 --> 00:11:57,480 Speaker 1: hit him and then basically he cut open another bag 174 00:11:57,520 --> 00:12:01,800 Speaker 1: and that's when he saw the foot and leg and 175 00:12:02,559 --> 00:12:05,000 Speaker 1: they both screamed. They went and called nine and one. 176 00:12:05,080 --> 00:12:08,600 Speaker 1: They have been crying when I spoke with them on Sunday, 177 00:12:08,640 --> 00:12:11,760 Speaker 1: a day after they found that body. I'm called nine 178 00:12:11,760 --> 00:12:16,920 Speaker 1: O one immediately Wow. So the husband, ken Eshan Paul, 179 00:12:17,200 --> 00:12:21,840 Speaker 1: starts digging through garbage bags and the freezer must have 180 00:12:21,920 --> 00:12:24,920 Speaker 1: been one of those deep freezers that you lift up 181 00:12:25,320 --> 00:12:31,320 Speaker 1: like a trunk, and realizes that it is in fact 182 00:12:31,679 --> 00:12:37,520 Speaker 1: a human body. Two former chief medical examiner for the 183 00:12:37,679 --> 00:12:42,760 Speaker 1: entire state of Georgia, doctor Chris Sperry, who can withstand 184 00:12:42,800 --> 00:12:46,959 Speaker 1: practically anything on cross examine, cross examination, I can attest 185 00:12:46,960 --> 00:12:54,040 Speaker 1: to that, doctor Sperry. What effect does freezing have on 186 00:12:54,440 --> 00:12:56,840 Speaker 1: a body? And I'm very curious in this case why 187 00:12:56,920 --> 00:13:00,800 Speaker 1: the killer didn't just dispose of the body parts. Why 188 00:13:00,880 --> 00:13:04,680 Speaker 1: put them in a freezer where they can be discovered later. 189 00:13:05,200 --> 00:13:08,600 Speaker 1: So that's a whole other canorms. But what effect does 190 00:13:08,679 --> 00:13:14,599 Speaker 1: freezing have on the body. I'm curious because this witness 191 00:13:14,760 --> 00:13:19,080 Speaker 1: ken eschen Boss says he opened the bags, the body 192 00:13:19,240 --> 00:13:26,720 Speaker 1: was frozen, yet the stench of decomposition hit him. Witten, 193 00:13:26,880 --> 00:13:30,840 Speaker 1: freezing get rid of that smell. No, freezing will not 194 00:13:30,920 --> 00:13:37,800 Speaker 1: do that. If a body is fresh, whether it's stop 195 00:13:37,920 --> 00:13:41,360 Speaker 1: right there. Let me just drink that in. If a 196 00:13:41,480 --> 00:13:45,000 Speaker 1: body is fresh fresh, never heard of describe like that, 197 00:13:45,080 --> 00:13:48,839 Speaker 1: But okay, I'll take that away. If a person has 198 00:13:48,920 --> 00:13:56,440 Speaker 1: recently died, and that's nice. There is that's more palatable. 199 00:13:57,240 --> 00:14:02,400 Speaker 1: And then the body is put into a freezer, whether 200 00:14:02,400 --> 00:14:07,120 Speaker 1: it's then, whether it's dismembered or intact. As long as 201 00:14:07,120 --> 00:14:10,560 Speaker 1: the time between death and the freezing is fairly short 202 00:14:10,800 --> 00:14:15,880 Speaker 1: a few hours, then there will be no odor. Once 203 00:14:16,280 --> 00:14:19,880 Speaker 1: the parts are discovered and the bags are open. However, 204 00:14:20,160 --> 00:14:24,960 Speaker 1: if a body begins to decompose and is then frozen 205 00:14:25,240 --> 00:14:29,600 Speaker 1: or dismembered and then frozen, the parts are frozen, the 206 00:14:29,680 --> 00:14:34,520 Speaker 1: decomposition odors will not go away at all. Freezing does 207 00:14:34,600 --> 00:14:40,480 Speaker 1: not eliminate decomposition, even though when the body parts were discovered, 208 00:14:42,520 --> 00:14:46,200 Speaker 1: they clearly they clearly had been a significant decomposition before 209 00:14:46,760 --> 00:14:50,200 Speaker 1: the dismembered parts were put into the freezer, and that 210 00:14:50,280 --> 00:14:53,720 Speaker 1: odor will stay there whether it's a month or a year, 211 00:14:53,840 --> 00:14:58,440 Speaker 1: or no matter how long. So what does that tell you? Forensically, 212 00:14:58,520 --> 00:15:02,600 Speaker 1: Doctor Chris Berry? Tell me the when when the person 213 00:15:02,760 --> 00:15:08,760 Speaker 1: was murdered, there was a period of time, probably at 214 00:15:08,840 --> 00:15:13,720 Speaker 1: least a day at room temperature, and perhaps you've been 215 00:15:13,720 --> 00:15:15,880 Speaker 1: as long as three, four or five days. I mean, 216 00:15:15,960 --> 00:15:19,160 Speaker 1: we could tell more about looking at the portions of 217 00:15:19,160 --> 00:15:21,720 Speaker 1: the body, looking at the tissues, but it tells me 218 00:15:21,800 --> 00:15:25,920 Speaker 1: that enough time had passed between the when the person 219 00:15:26,000 --> 00:15:31,040 Speaker 1: died and then was dismembered and frozen that decomposition had 220 00:15:31,440 --> 00:15:36,120 Speaker 1: already set in. So that's you know that that definitely 221 00:15:36,120 --> 00:15:40,080 Speaker 1: shows right there, there's an interval between the time of 222 00:15:40,120 --> 00:15:44,120 Speaker 1: death and then the hiding of the body parts of 223 00:15:44,200 --> 00:15:48,360 Speaker 1: the freezer. So bottom line, the killer left her body 224 00:15:48,560 --> 00:15:52,240 Speaker 1: lying around, as you said, at room temperature. You do know, 225 00:15:52,440 --> 00:15:55,400 Speaker 1: doctor Sperry, you refer to human bodies as if they're 226 00:15:56,080 --> 00:15:59,280 Speaker 1: I don't know, pro do you just want to make 227 00:15:59,320 --> 00:16:05,920 Speaker 1: you aware of that at the fresh well, it's bad, okay? 228 00:16:06,080 --> 00:16:08,680 Speaker 1: Did you say it's work, just work? Did you when 229 00:16:08,680 --> 00:16:11,640 Speaker 1: you were a little boy, doctor Sperry, what did you 230 00:16:11,640 --> 00:16:14,520 Speaker 1: want to be when you grew up? Because I'm just curious. 231 00:16:15,760 --> 00:16:18,160 Speaker 1: I wanted to be a doctor from the age of four. 232 00:16:18,840 --> 00:16:22,080 Speaker 1: My mother could attest to that, but I decided to 233 00:16:22,080 --> 00:16:26,120 Speaker 1: be a forensic pathologist when I was fifteen. I used 234 00:16:26,120 --> 00:16:28,520 Speaker 1: to ride my bicycle to the medical library or the 235 00:16:28,560 --> 00:16:32,040 Speaker 1: science library at the University of Kansas and just walked 236 00:16:32,040 --> 00:16:35,320 Speaker 1: through the stacks looking for books. And one day I 237 00:16:35,400 --> 00:16:39,120 Speaker 1: found a book on forensic pathology, which I probably checked 238 00:16:39,120 --> 00:16:42,040 Speaker 1: out and took home, and I decided that in there 239 00:16:42,200 --> 00:16:44,960 Speaker 1: that is what I want to do, and my dream 240 00:16:45,040 --> 00:16:48,160 Speaker 1: came true. I don't really know what to say. Even 241 00:16:48,200 --> 00:16:50,320 Speaker 1: as a young boy, you dreamed of dead bodies. You know. 242 00:16:50,360 --> 00:16:52,560 Speaker 1: I'm going to let you and doctor Bethany Marshall take 243 00:16:52,640 --> 00:16:57,080 Speaker 1: up that issue privately, but I'm just trying to get 244 00:16:57,160 --> 00:17:01,480 Speaker 1: my mind around what you're saying to Daryl, And I 245 00:17:01,640 --> 00:17:06,120 Speaker 1: was going down the rabbit hole of do we ever 246 00:17:06,160 --> 00:17:09,320 Speaker 1: stop and hear ourselves describing dead bodies like their produce. 247 00:17:09,480 --> 00:17:12,720 Speaker 1: But I want to talk about the forensics in this case. 248 00:17:12,800 --> 00:17:17,160 Speaker 1: That means that the killer left her just what, lying 249 00:17:17,240 --> 00:17:19,760 Speaker 1: there for a period of time before doing anything with 250 00:17:19,840 --> 00:17:25,720 Speaker 1: her body. That suggests to me a real plathora of possibilities. 251 00:17:26,480 --> 00:17:29,720 Speaker 1: Were they so arrogant, so sure they wouldn't get caught, 252 00:17:29,760 --> 00:17:33,000 Speaker 1: that they could just leave a body sitting there unattended 253 00:17:33,040 --> 00:17:36,639 Speaker 1: to Nancy. I'm wondering if it was just the opposite 254 00:17:37,000 --> 00:17:41,840 Speaker 1: that the killer was afraid, because it was obviously he 255 00:17:42,080 --> 00:17:45,199 Speaker 1: in my view, he had somewhere else to be, and 256 00:17:45,240 --> 00:17:48,119 Speaker 1: if he wasn't there at or near the time he 257 00:17:48,200 --> 00:17:51,600 Speaker 1: was supposed to be there, that would send out, oh 258 00:17:51,640 --> 00:17:54,440 Speaker 1: my gosh, where is he ready, and then later they 259 00:17:54,440 --> 00:17:57,960 Speaker 1: would tie that back to him. So I think one 260 00:17:58,320 --> 00:18:01,760 Speaker 1: good theory is that he west where he had to be, 261 00:18:02,440 --> 00:18:06,320 Speaker 1: and he had to leave the body decompose and then 262 00:18:06,560 --> 00:18:09,080 Speaker 1: so he could come back to it later and then 263 00:18:09,160 --> 00:18:13,280 Speaker 1: put it on ice. I think you're right. I think 264 00:18:13,320 --> 00:18:31,679 Speaker 1: your theory is very very possible. Time Stories with Nancy Grace. 265 00:18:33,760 --> 00:18:37,080 Speaker 1: We're talking about the disappearance of a gorgeous, young, diminutive 266 00:18:37,280 --> 00:18:42,160 Speaker 1: woman's Shannon Graves, who goes missing. Yet neighbor series driving 267 00:18:42,160 --> 00:18:44,280 Speaker 1: by in her car with her dog. So how is 268 00:18:44,280 --> 00:18:46,480 Speaker 1: she missing? Well, I don't know the answer to that yet, 269 00:18:46,560 --> 00:18:49,600 Speaker 1: but I do know this. A body turns up in 270 00:18:49,640 --> 00:18:52,800 Speaker 1: a friend's freezer and it looks like a woman's foot. 271 00:18:53,280 --> 00:18:55,640 Speaker 1: They call nine on one. You know, I was trying 272 00:18:55,680 --> 00:18:57,080 Speaker 1: to figure out who she looked at. It has been 273 00:18:57,080 --> 00:19:00,840 Speaker 1: bothering me. She looks like a much younger Carrie Fisher 274 00:19:01,119 --> 00:19:05,040 Speaker 1: with a side pony around the time of the First 275 00:19:05,040 --> 00:19:10,200 Speaker 1: Star Wars, very very beautiful princess Princess Leiah. That's who 276 00:19:10,240 --> 00:19:14,600 Speaker 1: she looks like. Anyway, long story short, This body turns 277 00:19:14,680 --> 00:19:21,600 Speaker 1: up in a freezer. The moment the homeowner opens the freezer, 278 00:19:21,800 --> 00:19:25,600 Speaker 1: he realizes something's very wrong, thinks it's a body, opens 279 00:19:25,800 --> 00:19:29,720 Speaker 1: a trash bag and yes, he finds a human foot. 280 00:19:29,760 --> 00:19:33,000 Speaker 1: Now I don't need a medical degree, no offense, doctor 281 00:19:33,040 --> 00:19:36,320 Speaker 1: Sperry to note this is murder. Take a listen now 282 00:19:36,480 --> 00:19:40,800 Speaker 1: to Joe Gorman with the Vindicator. And I looked at 283 00:19:40,800 --> 00:19:43,920 Speaker 1: the Corners Report today to see the Channy Lake on that, 284 00:19:44,119 --> 00:19:46,160 Speaker 1: because they never really did give a cause of death 285 00:19:46,240 --> 00:19:48,520 Speaker 1: for her, and the Corners report doesn't say too much. 286 00:19:48,720 --> 00:19:52,760 Speaker 1: It mentions how she was, how what they found was 287 00:19:52,800 --> 00:19:54,840 Speaker 1: cut up, They found a foot, there are two or 288 00:19:54,840 --> 00:19:57,280 Speaker 1: three different bags, and there were different body parts. But 289 00:19:57,480 --> 00:20:00,400 Speaker 1: the corner's ruling said that it was ruled her death 290 00:20:00,400 --> 00:20:03,359 Speaker 1: as homified by unspecified means. They haven't been mentioned anything 291 00:20:03,359 --> 00:20:05,840 Speaker 1: about a timeline or anything like that. With a body 292 00:20:05,880 --> 00:20:08,640 Speaker 1: dismembered in this manner, it may be very, very difficult 293 00:20:08,640 --> 00:20:12,040 Speaker 1: to get a cod cause of death. And I believe 294 00:20:12,160 --> 00:20:14,920 Speaker 1: it was Darryll Cohen pointed out earlier. Yes it has 295 00:20:14,960 --> 00:20:19,800 Speaker 1: to be a guy, not absolutely, but I mean Stephen Lampley, 296 00:20:19,880 --> 00:20:22,960 Speaker 1: detective author of Outside Your Door, Have you ever seen 297 00:20:23,160 --> 00:20:27,560 Speaker 1: a female killer that dismembered the body Nancy? I have not, 298 00:20:27,880 --> 00:20:30,000 Speaker 1: and I won't say that it's never happened. I'm not 299 00:20:30,000 --> 00:20:32,159 Speaker 1: familiar with and I've never had that experience, to be honest, 300 00:20:32,359 --> 00:20:35,760 Speaker 1: neither have I. Of course, if it did happen, she 301 00:20:35,840 --> 00:20:37,800 Speaker 1: was smart enough to get rid of all the evidence 302 00:20:37,840 --> 00:20:40,080 Speaker 1: and didn't leave it in a freezer. So you know 303 00:20:40,119 --> 00:20:44,280 Speaker 1: what I keep hearing Ray Kaputo, lead anchor WDBO, I 304 00:20:44,400 --> 00:20:47,760 Speaker 1: keep hearing about a foot and another foot. Nobody's mentioned 305 00:20:47,840 --> 00:20:50,679 Speaker 1: a hit. Well, Nancy, it's because they never found it. 306 00:20:51,320 --> 00:20:54,040 Speaker 1: Parts of her body have never been found. Only that's 307 00:20:54,040 --> 00:20:58,720 Speaker 1: in pieces, you know, Ray Kaputo, I bet they never 308 00:20:58,720 --> 00:21:01,960 Speaker 1: found her hands either. I haven't heard that. I don't 309 00:21:02,000 --> 00:21:04,200 Speaker 1: know that to be true, but it seems to me 310 00:21:04,720 --> 00:21:09,640 Speaker 1: that the killer was trying to avoid her body being identified. Yeah, 311 00:21:09,720 --> 00:21:12,119 Speaker 1: I mean that's correct. It seems like great lengths. I mean, 312 00:21:12,200 --> 00:21:15,720 Speaker 1: first off, anybody that goes through the trouble of freezing 313 00:21:15,720 --> 00:21:18,480 Speaker 1: a body and cutting up. I mean, if killing somebody 314 00:21:18,560 --> 00:21:20,840 Speaker 1: wasn't disgusting enough, you have to have quite a stomach 315 00:21:20,880 --> 00:21:23,240 Speaker 1: to do that. So they did go through great lengths, 316 00:21:23,240 --> 00:21:25,000 Speaker 1: you know, just by the nature of how she was 317 00:21:25,160 --> 00:21:28,080 Speaker 1: the parts of her were found. It is quite bizarre. Guys. 318 00:21:28,240 --> 00:21:33,359 Speaker 1: I'm also curious about how this fraser ends up in 319 00:21:33,600 --> 00:21:37,000 Speaker 1: your basement and you don't know there is a dead 320 00:21:37,320 --> 00:21:42,240 Speaker 1: body in it. Police began backtracking. They look at everyone 321 00:21:42,359 --> 00:21:46,520 Speaker 1: that thinks they've seen Shannon Graves alive in the recent past, 322 00:21:47,280 --> 00:21:51,840 Speaker 1: and as Daryl Cohen alluded in the very beginning of 323 00:21:51,880 --> 00:21:58,440 Speaker 1: this murder mystery? Was that really Shannon Graves? Was that 324 00:21:58,600 --> 00:22:02,960 Speaker 1: Shannon Graves that we see go by in her car? 325 00:22:05,160 --> 00:22:08,639 Speaker 1: I want to go to doctor Chris Sperry, Doctor Sperry. 326 00:22:08,760 --> 00:22:13,439 Speaker 1: Without a head and without hands, How can a body 327 00:22:13,840 --> 00:22:19,480 Speaker 1: be identified? Well, if you're lucky enough to find, say 328 00:22:19,560 --> 00:22:23,840 Speaker 1: tattoos or significant scars on the body, those can be 329 00:22:24,480 --> 00:22:28,520 Speaker 1: unique identifying marks, especially if a tattoo has a name 330 00:22:28,640 --> 00:22:31,600 Speaker 1: or is very unique. Now lots of people have all 331 00:22:31,680 --> 00:22:34,520 Speaker 1: kinds of surgical scars that you know, at least it 332 00:22:34,600 --> 00:22:38,480 Speaker 1: may give some idea or or you know, if you 333 00:22:38,560 --> 00:22:42,480 Speaker 1: know that a missing person had, say a hysterectomy, and 334 00:22:42,640 --> 00:22:46,520 Speaker 1: the autopsy shows that there's no uterus or Philippian tube, 335 00:22:46,640 --> 00:22:50,160 Speaker 1: no female organs, well at least that's a start. But honestly, 336 00:22:50,200 --> 00:22:54,760 Speaker 1: at this day and age, DNA that that is how 337 00:22:54,920 --> 00:23:00,000 Speaker 1: the vast majority of identifications are accomplished today. In situations 338 00:23:00,040 --> 00:23:02,720 Speaker 1: like where we have here, where the head is missing 339 00:23:02,760 --> 00:23:06,320 Speaker 1: and perhaps the hands also, there's still a ton of 340 00:23:06,400 --> 00:23:12,280 Speaker 1: DNA even with the decomposition state of the tissues. If necessary, 341 00:23:12,480 --> 00:23:15,520 Speaker 1: we can take DNA from the bone marrow and still 342 00:23:15,560 --> 00:23:19,600 Speaker 1: identify someone. DNA from the bone marrow you don't want 343 00:23:19,600 --> 00:23:21,880 Speaker 1: to circle back to it. Daryl Cohen, the former prosecutor 344 00:23:21,920 --> 00:23:25,960 Speaker 1: now defense attorney. The Atlanta jurisdiction set earlier because these 345 00:23:26,000 --> 00:23:30,360 Speaker 1: people were sure they had seen Shannon Grace. So if 346 00:23:30,400 --> 00:23:33,280 Speaker 1: it's not her driving her car, and her dog, and 347 00:23:33,320 --> 00:23:36,200 Speaker 1: her credit cards and her at even her clothes, then 348 00:23:36,240 --> 00:23:38,639 Speaker 1: what is there a mysterious evil twin. She does not 349 00:23:38,880 --> 00:23:42,199 Speaker 1: have a twin, So is there a doppel gager? What 350 00:23:42,440 --> 00:23:45,520 Speaker 1: led you to say that? Daryl Cohen? Yancy? Because in 351 00:23:45,600 --> 00:23:48,639 Speaker 1: all the years I've prosecuted, and in all the years 352 00:23:48,640 --> 00:23:54,200 Speaker 1: I've defended the least the least person, the people who 353 00:23:54,440 --> 00:24:02,240 Speaker 1: absolutely identify the person or persons are are not very reliable. 354 00:24:03,040 --> 00:24:06,800 Speaker 1: I'm not you and the bad eyewitness again. You know 355 00:24:06,840 --> 00:24:09,600 Speaker 1: what so many defense attorneys have whined the eyewitness didn't 356 00:24:09,640 --> 00:24:12,240 Speaker 1: see what they saw. We actually it's actually in the 357 00:24:12,400 --> 00:24:16,159 Speaker 1: law now and the statute the case law that says 358 00:24:16,560 --> 00:24:19,960 Speaker 1: with eyewitnesses, you need to and this is routine sop. 359 00:24:20,280 --> 00:24:22,560 Speaker 1: When I put up an eyewitness, what time of the 360 00:24:22,640 --> 00:24:24,360 Speaker 1: day was it, do you wear glasses? Was it? Well? 361 00:24:24,440 --> 00:24:27,280 Speaker 1: Let how far away were you? Was your view obstructed? 362 00:24:27,320 --> 00:24:29,280 Speaker 1: Where the influence of drugs or alcohol at the time, 363 00:24:29,440 --> 00:24:33,480 Speaker 1: there's actually a litany that you put your eyewitness through 364 00:24:33,640 --> 00:24:37,160 Speaker 1: because of people just like Daryl Cohen that would love 365 00:24:37,160 --> 00:24:41,040 Speaker 1: to tell a jury the eyewitness didn't see what they saw. 366 00:24:41,240 --> 00:24:45,440 Speaker 1: But in this case, sadly is Daryl Cohen absolutely correct. 367 00:24:45,800 --> 00:24:47,520 Speaker 1: Oh hold on, I'm not going to let him in 368 00:24:47,560 --> 00:24:50,760 Speaker 1: because he's gonna gloat. Let me go to doctor Bethany Marshall. 369 00:24:50,800 --> 00:24:56,040 Speaker 1: Just a moment, Doctor Bethany. This woman her feet and 370 00:24:56,160 --> 00:24:59,080 Speaker 1: other parts of her body in garbage bags and a freezer. 371 00:25:00,200 --> 00:25:04,920 Speaker 1: Who in the world would think of wearing her clothes, 372 00:25:05,920 --> 00:25:08,320 Speaker 1: using your ATM and credit card, taking her dog out, 373 00:25:08,880 --> 00:25:13,800 Speaker 1: driving her car, even wearing her hats? Long story short, 374 00:25:13,840 --> 00:25:16,560 Speaker 1: What kind of mind would take over the clothing and 375 00:25:16,680 --> 00:25:20,800 Speaker 1: the life to be an apost for a dead girl? 376 00:25:21,480 --> 00:25:25,680 Speaker 1: Another jealous woman, another woman who wants her life, another 377 00:25:25,720 --> 00:25:29,320 Speaker 1: woman who envies her nancy. This reminds me a little 378 00:25:29,359 --> 00:25:33,920 Speaker 1: of these crimes where a woman wants to become pregnant, 379 00:25:34,000 --> 00:25:37,800 Speaker 1: gets pseudocyesis, which is a false pregnancy, find the pregnant woman, 380 00:25:38,200 --> 00:25:41,560 Speaker 1: kidnaps her and cuts the baby out of the pregnant 381 00:25:41,760 --> 00:25:46,800 Speaker 1: mom's belly. They want what the other person has, Who 382 00:25:47,000 --> 00:25:51,760 Speaker 1: wanted what Shannon Graves had, was there somebody who was 383 00:25:51,840 --> 00:25:57,320 Speaker 1: befriending her, was sending her gifts, soliciting contact with her, 384 00:25:57,800 --> 00:26:00,840 Speaker 1: trying to cozy up to her family or her boyfriends, 385 00:26:00,920 --> 00:26:03,840 Speaker 1: or to her place of employment. I bet there was 386 00:26:03,960 --> 00:26:07,679 Speaker 1: some woman somewhere who was obsessed with her, and I 387 00:26:07,680 --> 00:26:11,120 Speaker 1: would try to follow the clues in that direction. But 388 00:26:12,040 --> 00:26:15,000 Speaker 1: to the extent that you would wear a dead woman's 389 00:26:15,000 --> 00:26:18,760 Speaker 1: clothes and walk her dog for Pete's sake, Bethany, Well, Hey, 390 00:26:18,800 --> 00:26:21,720 Speaker 1: if you're going to cut a baby out of a 391 00:26:21,760 --> 00:26:24,600 Speaker 1: pregnant mom, you start with the babycat out of a 392 00:26:24,680 --> 00:26:26,760 Speaker 1: pregnant mom. That has nothing to do with this that 393 00:26:26,880 --> 00:26:29,760 Speaker 1: we know of yet. But why would you wear the 394 00:26:29,880 --> 00:26:32,880 Speaker 1: dead woman's clothes? You know? I think why you chop 395 00:26:32,920 --> 00:26:34,600 Speaker 1: her up in bens and they go, oh, I think 396 00:26:34,640 --> 00:26:37,040 Speaker 1: I'll try on her Max. I mean, you know, it's 397 00:26:37,200 --> 00:26:41,720 Speaker 1: really like, um, I'm digging her hat. That's a no. 398 00:26:42,520 --> 00:26:45,199 Speaker 1: Who was it where the head of the fan club 399 00:26:45,440 --> 00:26:50,760 Speaker 1: killed the star? Was it? Selena? Selena? So? Hello? Okay? 400 00:26:50,800 --> 00:26:54,960 Speaker 1: So she gained proximity to this star. She became her 401 00:26:55,000 --> 00:26:58,479 Speaker 1: biggest fan. She learned everything about her, her comings, her 402 00:26:58,520 --> 00:27:02,760 Speaker 1: goings for bank accounts, you know, she infiltrated her fan club, 403 00:27:02,800 --> 00:27:05,199 Speaker 1: became the head of it. But she didn't want to 404 00:27:05,200 --> 00:27:09,240 Speaker 1: be close to her. She wanted to be her. So 405 00:27:09,359 --> 00:27:14,000 Speaker 1: whoever did this wanted to be Shannon Graves wanted that 406 00:27:14,119 --> 00:27:15,879 Speaker 1: kind of a life. And I bet it was a 407 00:27:15,920 --> 00:27:18,439 Speaker 1: weak individual who did not know how to build a 408 00:27:18,480 --> 00:27:21,080 Speaker 1: life of her own. She had to steal a life, 409 00:27:21,080 --> 00:27:23,840 Speaker 1: she had to take it from somebody else. Did Shannon 410 00:27:23,880 --> 00:27:27,120 Speaker 1: Graves have a boyfriend? I don't know. Was this this 411 00:27:27,160 --> 00:27:31,639 Speaker 1: person wanting other aspects of Shannon's life? Did she have Shannon? Yes, 412 00:27:32,000 --> 00:27:36,560 Speaker 1: Arthur Novoa had a boyfriend. Hey, doctor Bethany Marshall getting 413 00:27:36,640 --> 00:27:41,760 Speaker 1: into the psyche of someone that could take part in 414 00:27:41,800 --> 00:27:46,159 Speaker 1: a brutal murder and dismemberment of this young woman, gorgeous, 415 00:27:46,960 --> 00:27:50,240 Speaker 1: twenty eight year old Shannon Gray. She's about four eight 416 00:27:50,400 --> 00:27:54,320 Speaker 1: four nine, she weighs about ninety pounds, just a little 417 00:27:54,359 --> 00:27:57,239 Speaker 1: whisp of a woman, but with a big personality and 418 00:27:57,280 --> 00:28:03,480 Speaker 1: then suddenly assume her identity, live her life. Take a 419 00:28:03,520 --> 00:28:12,440 Speaker 1: listen now to what we learned from Ken Shinbach. Mean 420 00:28:12,600 --> 00:28:14,520 Speaker 1: wife just screaming came up and I went to the 421 00:28:14,560 --> 00:28:19,920 Speaker 1: friend Steths. Take a listen, to de Wi KB and 422 00:28:20,080 --> 00:28:24,720 Speaker 1: TV stan Bonnet. The two people in connection with this 423 00:28:24,920 --> 00:28:29,679 Speaker 1: crime are Artario Novoa and Katrina Layton. Now keep in 424 00:28:29,720 --> 00:28:32,159 Speaker 1: mind these two have only been charged with abuse of 425 00:28:32,160 --> 00:28:34,480 Speaker 1: a corpse. They have yet to be charged with the 426 00:28:34,600 --> 00:28:38,760 Speaker 1: murder in connection with Shannon Graves. We do know that 427 00:28:38,800 --> 00:28:43,120 Speaker 1: Shannon Graves and Arturo Novoa were at one point boyfriend 428 00:28:43,200 --> 00:28:46,360 Speaker 1: and girlfriend. They live in an apartment on Mahoning Avenue 429 00:28:46,400 --> 00:28:51,040 Speaker 1: in Youngstown. That uh once, eventually, uh, Katrina Layton came 430 00:28:51,080 --> 00:28:55,360 Speaker 1: into the picture and she was seen driving Graves's car, 431 00:28:55,520 --> 00:28:58,640 Speaker 1: using her cell phone and basically taking the place of 432 00:28:58,720 --> 00:29:03,959 Speaker 1: Shannon Graves. Dot to Bethany Marshall, You're absolutely correct, and 433 00:29:04,040 --> 00:29:07,800 Speaker 1: so are you Daryl Cohen. So doctor Bethany Marshall. Since 434 00:29:08,320 --> 00:29:11,440 Speaker 1: Darrel Cohen has in fact confessed he's just a JD, 435 00:29:12,160 --> 00:29:14,520 Speaker 1: not a psychoanalyst like you, let me go to you 436 00:29:14,600 --> 00:29:17,920 Speaker 1: to explain the thinking. What is going on in this 437 00:29:17,960 --> 00:29:21,960 Speaker 1: woman's mind that she takes over the identity of Shannon 438 00:29:22,000 --> 00:29:25,400 Speaker 1: Gray's after taking part obviously taking parton murdering her. Well, 439 00:29:25,400 --> 00:29:28,560 Speaker 1: didn't we see this in the Dulos murder Jennifer Dulos 440 00:29:28,600 --> 00:29:33,600 Speaker 1: that her husband recruited another woman to help dispose of 441 00:29:33,640 --> 00:29:37,040 Speaker 1: the body. This is not an uncommon story, sadly, but 442 00:29:37,120 --> 00:29:40,360 Speaker 1: I don't remember the girlfriend, Nan Dulos wearing Jennifer's cloth. 443 00:29:42,480 --> 00:29:44,800 Speaker 1: This is a good point, you know, Nana. Still yes. 444 00:29:45,040 --> 00:29:50,880 Speaker 1: The psychology is that the boy Samantha Grave's boyfriend begins 445 00:29:51,000 --> 00:29:55,760 Speaker 1: to devalue and to degrade her to the new girlfriend 446 00:29:55,840 --> 00:29:58,760 Speaker 1: to put her down to tell Stor. He begins to 447 00:29:58,800 --> 00:30:03,400 Speaker 1: build a narrative that Shannon Graves doesn't really deserve the 448 00:30:03,480 --> 00:30:07,600 Speaker 1: life he's quote unquote air quote given her. She doesn't 449 00:30:07,640 --> 00:30:10,920 Speaker 1: deserve that beautiful car she drives around. She doesn't deserve 450 00:30:11,040 --> 00:30:14,040 Speaker 1: that loving dog. She doesn't deserve the money and the 451 00:30:14,080 --> 00:30:17,680 Speaker 1: bank accounts because he, after all, has provided all of 452 00:30:17,720 --> 00:30:21,560 Speaker 1: it to her. And why is that h taking things 453 00:30:21,600 --> 00:30:24,360 Speaker 1: that are not hers to take. He builds the narrative 454 00:30:24,400 --> 00:30:27,000 Speaker 1: with the new lover and the new girlfriend, who buys 455 00:30:27,080 --> 00:30:30,640 Speaker 1: into it, and begins to develop a paranoid relationship with 456 00:30:30,760 --> 00:30:34,840 Speaker 1: Samantha and with society that he's like God and she'll 457 00:30:34,840 --> 00:30:38,520 Speaker 1: only bloom if she's planted in his garden. Pretty soon 458 00:30:38,960 --> 00:30:41,880 Speaker 1: they begin to conspire to get rid of Samantha and 459 00:30:41,960 --> 00:30:45,240 Speaker 1: to take over her life because they have already in 460 00:30:45,280 --> 00:30:49,440 Speaker 1: a sense, destroyed the goodness of her personality in their minds, 461 00:30:49,840 --> 00:30:52,000 Speaker 1: and by the time they kill her, they chop her up, 462 00:30:52,040 --> 00:30:55,480 Speaker 1: they put her in a freezer. They have completely rationalized 463 00:30:55,840 --> 00:30:59,280 Speaker 1: that her belongings belong to them. They're not hers, they're theirs. 464 00:30:59,600 --> 00:31:16,600 Speaker 1: It's hetty theft at a very grand, elaborate level. Crime 465 00:31:16,640 --> 00:31:23,120 Speaker 1: stories with Nancy Grace, guys were talking about the mysterious 466 00:31:23,120 --> 00:31:27,840 Speaker 1: disappearance of a young woman or Youngstown. You know what's interesting, 467 00:31:29,160 --> 00:31:35,040 Speaker 1: Stephen Lampley, Daryl Cohen, we all three agree that we've 468 00:31:35,080 --> 00:31:42,320 Speaker 1: never seen a female killer dismember a body. Yeah, but 469 00:31:42,680 --> 00:31:46,920 Speaker 1: isn't it true? Ray Caputo w DBO that it was Layton, 470 00:31:47,360 --> 00:31:50,800 Speaker 1: thirty six year old Katrina Layton that went and bought 471 00:31:50,880 --> 00:31:54,920 Speaker 1: the freezer and bought sulfuric acid. Oh yeah, Nancy, she 472 00:31:54,960 --> 00:31:58,880 Speaker 1: was a willing participant. She also helped move the body too. 473 00:31:58,920 --> 00:32:02,520 Speaker 1: But you know, she was not just on the sidelines 474 00:32:02,560 --> 00:32:03,920 Speaker 1: of all this, and you know that a lot of 475 00:32:03,960 --> 00:32:06,360 Speaker 1: that came out when she went to trial. But yeah, 476 00:32:06,400 --> 00:32:08,680 Speaker 1: I mean, she bought sulfuric acid, she bought the freezer, 477 00:32:08,760 --> 00:32:10,400 Speaker 1: she helped move the body, She knew what she was 478 00:32:10,440 --> 00:32:13,600 Speaker 1: doing so in your mind, Stephen Lampley, detective author of 479 00:32:13,680 --> 00:32:18,680 Speaker 1: Outside Your Door. She's in the thick of it. She 480 00:32:18,920 --> 00:32:22,640 Speaker 1: may very well have taken part in dismembering the body. 481 00:32:22,880 --> 00:32:24,640 Speaker 1: She's the one that buys the freezer. She's the one 482 00:32:24,680 --> 00:32:29,160 Speaker 1: that buys the sulfuric acid. She's in the thick of it. Nancy, 483 00:32:29,240 --> 00:32:32,120 Speaker 1: she is, and she's well involved. And I mean she's 484 00:32:32,160 --> 00:32:34,720 Speaker 1: like you said, she bought the freezer. Obviously round I 485 00:32:34,720 --> 00:32:37,360 Speaker 1: would think that she helped even in the dismembering. That's 486 00:32:37,360 --> 00:32:40,080 Speaker 1: my initial thought. But yeah, she is so involved in 487 00:32:40,120 --> 00:32:43,280 Speaker 1: this murder. You know too, Doctor Bethany Marshall. On my keychain, 488 00:32:43,800 --> 00:32:45,800 Speaker 1: I have you know you can do those little you 489 00:32:45,840 --> 00:32:50,040 Speaker 1: can get those little plastic frames. I know I've got 490 00:32:50,840 --> 00:32:53,680 Speaker 1: at least five of the twins and all of us 491 00:32:53,720 --> 00:32:56,400 Speaker 1: together at different spots. Here we are at the beach, 492 00:32:56,440 --> 00:32:59,880 Speaker 1: eating at Crabby Joe's. Here we are at NASA part 493 00:33:00,000 --> 00:33:04,120 Speaker 1: anything like we're floating in space. Listen to this. Did 494 00:33:04,160 --> 00:33:10,040 Speaker 1: you know the lover Arthur Nevoa kept the key to 495 00:33:10,160 --> 00:33:15,000 Speaker 1: the padlock on his keychain. Now, when they moved out 496 00:33:15,000 --> 00:33:19,040 Speaker 1: of the apartment, they moved the freezer with the dead 497 00:33:19,120 --> 00:33:23,360 Speaker 1: body and the freezer to these friends, the Eshenbergs. But 498 00:33:23,480 --> 00:33:26,440 Speaker 1: he kept it and every time he had to crank 499 00:33:26,520 --> 00:33:29,560 Speaker 1: his car unlock his house, he had to see that 500 00:33:29,640 --> 00:33:34,760 Speaker 1: padlock and think, Shannon Grays, my lover, She's dismembered in 501 00:33:34,800 --> 00:33:37,440 Speaker 1: the freezer. How do you do that every day? Look 502 00:33:37,600 --> 00:33:40,360 Speaker 1: right at it on your keychain, Nancy. I always say, 503 00:33:40,840 --> 00:33:44,120 Speaker 1: as in life, so in death, meaning he controlled her 504 00:33:44,160 --> 00:33:47,320 Speaker 1: in life, he controlled her in death. He's a control freak, 505 00:33:47,400 --> 00:33:49,920 Speaker 1: and so is his girlfriend. Controlling to the point of 506 00:33:49,960 --> 00:33:54,520 Speaker 1: being homicidal, wanting to complete control over the body. I think, Nancy, 507 00:33:54,680 --> 00:33:59,640 Speaker 1: that something happened where they conspired to kill her, but 508 00:34:00,120 --> 00:34:03,160 Speaker 1: they were not far sighted enough to know what to 509 00:34:03,200 --> 00:34:05,200 Speaker 1: do with the body, and so it lay there for 510 00:34:05,240 --> 00:34:08,680 Speaker 1: several days while they contemplated their next move. It takes 511 00:34:08,719 --> 00:34:11,839 Speaker 1: an enormous amount of energy to dismember a body, you know, 512 00:34:12,000 --> 00:34:15,879 Speaker 1: you can ask mister Sperry, doctor Sperry, blood all over 513 00:34:15,920 --> 00:34:19,560 Speaker 1: the place. I mean, it's a herculean task. They finally 514 00:34:19,560 --> 00:34:22,960 Speaker 1: put her in the freezer, They secrete the freezer, or 515 00:34:23,000 --> 00:34:25,920 Speaker 1: they give it to a friend. He has the key 516 00:34:25,960 --> 00:34:29,760 Speaker 1: to the padlock. He imagines that he still has control 517 00:34:29,800 --> 00:34:33,239 Speaker 1: over her, that she's his, that no one would ever 518 00:34:33,320 --> 00:34:36,439 Speaker 1: get in that freezer because he and only he has 519 00:34:36,520 --> 00:34:39,360 Speaker 1: the key. And that's what abusers think. They think that 520 00:34:39,520 --> 00:34:42,040 Speaker 1: they are the sole person in charge of that other 521 00:34:42,080 --> 00:34:45,239 Speaker 1: person's life. I think it's that simple psychology in this case. 522 00:34:45,560 --> 00:34:50,720 Speaker 1: Is it true, Ray Caputo, that Novoa and listed other 523 00:34:50,920 --> 00:34:55,200 Speaker 1: people to help him dispose of the body? Yeah, Nancy, 524 00:34:55,320 --> 00:34:57,400 Speaker 1: I wish I could say that that Latent and Novola 525 00:34:57,440 --> 00:34:59,920 Speaker 1: were the only two people involved. But he had another friend, 526 00:35:00,120 --> 00:35:04,279 Speaker 1: Andrew Herman, who apparently helped him mutilate the body and then, 527 00:35:04,320 --> 00:35:06,640 Speaker 1: to make matters worse, Andrew Herman was married at the 528 00:35:06,680 --> 00:35:09,040 Speaker 1: time and he had a wife who helped out as well, 529 00:35:09,120 --> 00:35:12,359 Speaker 1: moving in disposing things. So it wasn't just these two 530 00:35:12,400 --> 00:35:14,880 Speaker 1: deprived individuals. There were a couple more involved. And I 531 00:35:14,880 --> 00:35:17,480 Speaker 1: think that's the really sick part is that you know, 532 00:35:17,560 --> 00:35:19,840 Speaker 1: you think that one person would come to their senses, 533 00:35:19,880 --> 00:35:22,200 Speaker 1: but all four of them took part in this. I mean, 534 00:35:22,320 --> 00:35:25,040 Speaker 1: Daryll Cohen, I've wanted us a million times. When you 535 00:35:25,160 --> 00:35:27,840 Speaker 1: have a group of defendants to take part in a murder. 536 00:35:28,080 --> 00:35:30,399 Speaker 1: Man the first time somebody says, hey, do you want 537 00:35:30,400 --> 00:35:33,319 Speaker 1: to help me dismember body. You'd say nothing to me 538 00:35:33,560 --> 00:35:36,759 Speaker 1: but elbows, intel hole, because I'd be running straight to 539 00:35:36,800 --> 00:35:39,799 Speaker 1: call police, not here, and these people went, oh sure, 540 00:35:40,239 --> 00:35:43,800 Speaker 1: what is that? It seems to me every party that 541 00:35:43,920 --> 00:35:46,839 Speaker 1: these people have nothing on their mind but to help 542 00:35:46,880 --> 00:35:49,560 Speaker 1: their buddy. And this is really cool. When I'll tell 543 00:35:49,560 --> 00:35:52,839 Speaker 1: you what, Nancy, when it's time to roll over one 544 00:35:52,840 --> 00:35:56,440 Speaker 1: of those people. Besides, I am not guilty, I am 545 00:35:56,480 --> 00:35:59,759 Speaker 1: going to tell because I don't want prison the rest 546 00:35:59,840 --> 00:36:02,759 Speaker 1: of my lord. You know, the family is left wondering. 547 00:36:02,960 --> 00:36:06,040 Speaker 1: Take a listen to to w KB and Stan at Beune. 548 00:36:06,320 --> 00:36:08,720 Speaker 1: There were lots of hugs around the gazebo at Austin 549 00:36:08,719 --> 00:36:11,839 Speaker 1: Town Township Park is. The family of Shannon Graves held 550 00:36:11,840 --> 00:36:15,200 Speaker 1: an evening to remember her. It was organized by her sister, 551 00:36:15,560 --> 00:36:19,040 Speaker 1: Debbie DePaul. Shannon was her own little spirit, She was 552 00:36:19,600 --> 00:36:23,279 Speaker 1: her free spirits. One of Shannon's good friends was John Scarrata. 553 00:36:23,600 --> 00:36:25,839 Speaker 1: She was awesome. She was a great person, always full 554 00:36:25,920 --> 00:36:30,120 Speaker 1: energy on top of everything that she did, like really focused. 555 00:36:30,160 --> 00:36:31,640 Speaker 1: But she has a lot of friends. You could tell 556 00:36:31,680 --> 00:36:34,160 Speaker 1: by the people that are coming here. Shannon graves father, 557 00:36:34,360 --> 00:36:37,520 Speaker 1: Ronnie DePaul, also showed up and said he's handling it 558 00:36:37,840 --> 00:36:40,880 Speaker 1: because he has to, but without all the standards. But 559 00:36:41,040 --> 00:36:43,640 Speaker 1: she ever could have done to add these two people 560 00:36:43,880 --> 00:36:46,399 Speaker 1: do what he did to her. Elodi got the bury 561 00:36:46,520 --> 00:36:49,200 Speaker 1: part of a buttah. Just everything around her being missing 562 00:36:50,400 --> 00:36:55,000 Speaker 1: wasn't right. So we kind of didn't know the specifics 563 00:36:55,040 --> 00:36:57,239 Speaker 1: or the gruesomeness of it, but figured pretty much something 564 00:36:57,280 --> 00:37:02,040 Speaker 1: like that had happened forty eight to life. But Shannon's 565 00:37:02,080 --> 00:37:08,160 Speaker 1: family still still distraught over the light treatment, latent and 566 00:37:08,480 --> 00:37:13,960 Speaker 1: others got We wait as justice un falls. Nancy Grace 567 00:37:14,000 --> 00:37:16,040 Speaker 1: Crime Story signing off good Bye Friend,