WEBVTT - Live From the Bloomberg Global Forum 0:00:02.520 --> 0:00:13.760 Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news. This is the Bloomberg 0:00:13.840 --> 0:00:17.920 Surveillance Podcast. Catch us live weekdays at seven am Eastern 0:00:18.200 --> 0:00:21.240 on Apple car Play or Android Auto with the Bloomberg 0:00:21.320 --> 0:00:24.840 Business app. Listen on demand wherever you get your podcasts, 0:00:25.280 --> 0:00:27.120 or watch us live on YouTube. 0:00:27.240 --> 0:00:28.640 Joining us Michael Mullen. 0:00:28.720 --> 0:00:32.320 He will always be Adam Mullin's seventeenth Chairman of the 0:00:32.400 --> 0:00:35.440 Joint Chiefs of Staff and someone that pioneered all sorts 0:00:35.479 --> 0:00:38.920 of transition in a Pentagon. This will be a good, 0:00:39.000 --> 0:00:43.400 lengthy conversation and we're privileged by that today. How did 0:00:43.440 --> 0:00:48.320 you find Lloyd Austin, the former Secretary of Defense? You 0:00:48.800 --> 0:00:51.720 brought him up through the ranks. How did you find 0:00:51.800 --> 0:00:54.680 someone like Lloyd Austin? Process? 0:00:54.880 --> 0:00:57.400 He was a three star when I met him, so 0:00:57.440 --> 0:00:59.200 he'd already along. 0:00:59.040 --> 0:01:01.440 With the ranks at that point. 0:01:01.520 --> 0:01:05.320 But actually he was the ground commander in Iraq when 0:01:05.319 --> 0:01:08.080 I was Chairman on a visit, and I would go 0:01:08.120 --> 0:01:11.160 into theater about once every quarter, and that's where I 0:01:11.200 --> 0:01:14.440 met him and spent the better part of a day 0:01:14.440 --> 0:01:17.640 in an evening with him, and of all of the 0:01:17.680 --> 0:01:20.200 ground commanders that I had run into, I just found 0:01:20.240 --> 0:01:25.720 him to have a more comprehensive view of ground, the 0:01:25.800 --> 0:01:30.080 ground warfare, and the requirements and the execution all the 0:01:30.160 --> 0:01:32.560 way from northern Iraq down to. 0:01:32.760 --> 0:01:34.160 Basra, southern Iraq. 0:01:34.959 --> 0:01:38.000 And when I returned to Washington, I good friend of 0:01:38.000 --> 0:01:40.360 mine was the chief of Staff of the Army, George Casey. 0:01:40.360 --> 0:01:44.119 And I asked Casey, I said, is Austin on your list? 0:01:44.240 --> 0:01:46.440 And he said no. I said, put him. 0:01:46.319 --> 0:01:46.840 On the list. 0:01:47.040 --> 0:01:49.120 And that was a command. 0:01:49.200 --> 0:01:50.960 And to give George credit, he did. 0:01:51.240 --> 0:01:53.480 And then I but then I brought him in to 0:01:53.640 --> 0:01:57.080 work for me Lloyd, because one thing to sort of 0:01:57.200 --> 0:02:00.680 spend a day and understand that. But and so he 0:02:00.880 --> 0:02:04.920 was the senior officer three star on the Joint Staff, 0:02:05.360 --> 0:02:06.600 the director of the Joint. 0:02:06.360 --> 0:02:09.840 Staff, and he was extraordinary there. And then obviously from there. 0:02:09.919 --> 0:02:11.880 Erymull and I've got to ask a question, I'd say 0:02:11.880 --> 0:02:14.560 to other friends of surveillance. I think of General Kimmitt, 0:02:14.560 --> 0:02:19.240 General Ben Hodges, obviously Stravet assistant. So much for us 0:02:19.240 --> 0:02:22.480 and for the nation, is well the state of our 0:02:22.520 --> 0:02:26.600 Pentagon today? What can you report about our officers and 0:02:26.680 --> 0:02:28.119 gentlemen and gentlewomen. 0:02:28.160 --> 0:02:30.560 I should well, is a what's the state appen It's 0:02:30.560 --> 0:02:33.880 a time of great change. Obviously there's a there is 0:02:33.960 --> 0:02:38.440 a with a new administration and a new secretary, you know, 0:02:38.600 --> 0:02:43.280 a significant change in focus. I still think it's relatively 0:02:43.360 --> 0:02:46.400 early days. I think with that kind of change there 0:02:46.919 --> 0:02:50.200 there comes a great deal of uncertainty. There certainly has 0:02:50.240 --> 0:02:53.520 been concern with a number of officers who have senior 0:02:53.560 --> 0:02:59.200 officers who've been either retired or retired on their own volition, 0:02:59.440 --> 0:03:05.040 or have actually been fired. And the uncertainty that comes 0:03:05.080 --> 0:03:10.200 with that is something that's that's I would say normal, 0:03:10.320 --> 0:03:13.560 not that the firings are, but normal and you know, 0:03:13.600 --> 0:03:15.320 where do we go from here kind of thing. It's 0:03:15.440 --> 0:03:18.440 very clear, and I think the operations there are recent 0:03:18.919 --> 0:03:21.840 strike operations in the Caribbean or an example that there 0:03:21.960 --> 0:03:26.120 is there is more of a local focus in terms 0:03:26.120 --> 0:03:29.720 of the capability. I mean when I was there, and 0:03:29.760 --> 0:03:31.880 it's been a while now, but this was the most 0:03:31.960 --> 0:03:34.440 extraordinary military in the history of the world. 0:03:34.560 --> 0:03:35.360 It still is. 0:03:37.280 --> 0:03:38.960 But I would say more than anything else right now, 0:03:38.960 --> 0:03:42.480 there's just a lot of uncertainty about about where we're headed. 0:03:42.920 --> 0:03:46.080 So that probably starts from the very top with this president. 0:03:46.200 --> 0:03:50.240 This president seemed to be making America great again. America first, 0:03:50.720 --> 0:03:54.800 that suggests that perhaps the US is or will be 0:03:55.040 --> 0:03:57.440 or has withdrawn from some of its commitments. How do 0:03:57.480 --> 0:04:00.880 you view our commitments to Natar, commitments to our friends 0:04:00.960 --> 0:04:04.480 around the world, our allies, our historic allies around the world. 0:04:04.280 --> 0:04:09.040 I'd almost reverse the question in terms of those we 0:04:09.160 --> 0:04:11.920 have been committed to. How do they see us in 0:04:11.960 --> 0:04:14.720 the future, And it's the same, I'd answer it with 0:04:14.800 --> 0:04:18.480 the same word. There's a lot of uncertainty about our commitments, 0:04:18.480 --> 0:04:21.360 a lot of uncertainty about where we're headed. I think 0:04:21.600 --> 0:04:26.760 clearly there is a or there will be. It looks like, 0:04:26.880 --> 0:04:32.160 you know, a significant reduction in those commitments around the world. Listen, 0:04:32.560 --> 0:04:35.680 when I was chairman, I was one, and I spent 0:04:35.720 --> 0:04:37.600 a lot of time in NATO, and I was one 0:04:37.640 --> 0:04:41.720 of those individuals that argued strongly for significantly increasing the 0:04:41.760 --> 0:04:44.200 commitments of our NATO partners, and they didn't do that. 0:04:44.800 --> 0:04:46.839 You know, I'd give President Trump a lot of credit. 0:04:47.040 --> 0:04:51.880 He clearly has their attention. They clearly are committed at 0:04:51.920 --> 0:04:54.880 a time also where particularly in Europe, you know, it's 0:04:55.080 --> 0:04:58.360 quote unquote war on the continent, which we've feared for decades. 0:04:58.480 --> 0:04:59.880 Let's go there right now. 0:04:59.520 --> 0:05:02.320 We'll with us Michael Mullen with us an extended conversation 0:05:02.400 --> 0:05:05.200 here at the Bloomberg Global Forum. Paul Smenia and Tom 0:05:05.279 --> 0:05:08.719 Keen across this nation, across Canada, thank you for listening. 0:05:08.720 --> 0:05:12.640 Good Morning ninety nine one FM at the Pentagon in Washington, 0:05:12.720 --> 0:05:15.920 and good Morning on YouTube across the nation. 0:05:16.040 --> 0:05:20.160 Paul Admiral talk to us about how you think we 0:05:20.240 --> 0:05:22.240 should What do you think the policy should be as 0:05:22.240 --> 0:05:24.080 a relates to Ukraine. I mean, it seems like an 0:05:24.080 --> 0:05:27.800 intractable situation there, but the policy seems to be shifting 0:05:27.839 --> 0:05:30.559 almost on a daily basis here and I guess that's 0:05:30.839 --> 0:05:32.960 more uncertainty for all those involved as well. 0:05:33.040 --> 0:05:35.640 Yeah, I mean the way I've looked at this, and 0:05:35.680 --> 0:05:38.920 this is really since the Ukraine, since Putin invaded. I 0:05:38.960 --> 0:05:41.560 think Putin's the most dangerous guy on the planet. Have 0:05:41.720 --> 0:05:45.880 thought that for a long time. He has actually overseen 0:05:45.920 --> 0:05:48.440 a Russian resurgence that many of us thought could not 0:05:48.560 --> 0:05:52.880 take place. And my friends in Europe in particular consider 0:05:52.960 --> 0:05:55.760 this an existential threat because it's not just going to 0:05:55.800 --> 0:05:58.640 stop with Ukraine. Putin isn't going to stop with Ukraine. 0:05:59.240 --> 0:06:02.839 My friends historically and the Baltics that are always nervous 0:06:02.880 --> 0:06:05.200 on the best day, on their best day, they were 0:06:05.920 --> 0:06:09.279 nervous that Russia would soon be coming their way, in 0:06:09.320 --> 0:06:12.960 addition to some of the larger countries like Poland for example, 0:06:13.040 --> 0:06:15.560 So there's huge concern over there, and I think it's 0:06:15.560 --> 0:06:19.040 a you know, we're at a really important inflection point 0:06:19.040 --> 0:06:23.240 about are we going to support our European friends and 0:06:23.279 --> 0:06:27.200 in particular Ukraine, or are we going to let Putin 0:06:27.480 --> 0:06:31.280 march on? And I think he without the US, he 0:06:31.320 --> 0:06:32.400 will continue to march on. 0:06:32.600 --> 0:06:33.440 Edroll I would suggest. 0:06:33.520 --> 0:06:36.599 I mentioned this yesterday with Jen's Nordvigan, who's expert on 0:06:36.680 --> 0:06:41.039 foreign exchange. He's from Copenhagen in Denmark, and I informed 0:06:41.160 --> 0:06:43.799 that that I think most Americans would know the Baltic 0:06:43.880 --> 0:06:46.000 Sea if you know, they got a map out, including 0:06:46.000 --> 0:06:49.000 the President of the United States. If you were back 0:06:49.200 --> 0:06:53.040 running a gasoline tanker the USS Naxibi. Did I pronounce 0:06:53.080 --> 0:06:55.599 it right? Would you take it into the Baltic Sea 0:06:55.680 --> 0:06:56.120 right now? 0:06:56.240 --> 0:06:57.640 Yeah, I'd be comfortable with that. 0:06:59.120 --> 0:07:02.000 What is our of about a sea we don't even 0:07:02.080 --> 0:07:04.719 know about, other than it's somewhere near a good dinner 0:07:04.720 --> 0:07:05.320 in Coconhata. 0:07:05.320 --> 0:07:07.320 Well, there's a lot of people actually in the military 0:07:07.320 --> 0:07:08.880 and certainly the Navy that we know a lot about, 0:07:08.920 --> 0:07:12.080 but Americans still understand that. And I think back to 0:07:12.800 --> 0:07:17.720 the challenge in Europe. There's no better indication of the response, 0:07:17.760 --> 0:07:22.040 the fear and the response than Finland and Sweden literally 0:07:22.160 --> 0:07:23.960 joining NATO overnight. 0:07:24.040 --> 0:07:25.360 I know those countries. 0:07:25.040 --> 0:07:30.200 Well, they are historically very neutral, did not want to 0:07:30.320 --> 0:07:34.760 join NATO and just overnight particularly, and obviously they live 0:07:34.840 --> 0:07:38.880 in the Baltic area and that's the concern, and so 0:07:39.600 --> 0:07:41.480 I think Europe's going to have to come together more 0:07:41.600 --> 0:07:46.160 with respect to that space, and they do not. The 0:07:46.200 --> 0:07:50.720 Nordics have always handled Russia pretty well, but that change 0:07:51.360 --> 0:07:54.120 was a sea change from my perspective, and an indication 0:07:54.200 --> 0:07:55.520 of how serious this threat is. 0:07:56.240 --> 0:07:56.560 China. 0:07:56.880 --> 0:07:59.560 What should the policy be here, How should we think 0:07:59.600 --> 0:08:02.560 about China over the next several years. 0:08:02.640 --> 0:08:06.680 Our relationship with China has been deteriorating over the last 0:08:07.120 --> 0:08:10.360 ten years, twelve years, and the way I've felt about 0:08:10.360 --> 0:08:13.920 this is unless our president and the president of China 0:08:14.320 --> 0:08:17.720 tend to this relationship, we will continue to come apart 0:08:18.080 --> 0:08:20.800 across the board. I'm hugely concerned about it. It is 0:08:20.840 --> 0:08:25.040 the one existential threat to the United States of America 0:08:25.080 --> 0:08:28.040 and to the western world, China and where Shishinping goes, 0:08:28.440 --> 0:08:33.560 and what he does matters greatly. I'm somewhat comforted by 0:08:33.640 --> 0:08:36.920 the interaction of our economies, the interdependence of our economies, 0:08:37.200 --> 0:08:41.520 which I think can bound how strongly we would react 0:08:41.600 --> 0:08:43.720 in terms of whether there would be conflict or not. 0:08:44.120 --> 0:08:47.880 But those two individuals need to manage this relationship, and 0:08:47.920 --> 0:08:50.320 if they do, I think it get better. If they don't, 0:08:50.360 --> 0:08:51.319 it's going to get worse. 0:08:51.679 --> 0:08:55.199 What do you think, presidents she's I guess global ambitions 0:08:55.280 --> 0:08:56.719 are are they regional too? 0:08:57.480 --> 0:08:58.920 I think he starts regionally. 0:08:59.200 --> 0:09:02.280 I think that part of the world, but clearly he's 0:09:02.720 --> 0:09:05.360 invested globally, you know, around the world. And in many 0:09:05.360 --> 0:09:08.480 ways he's copied us. You know, he's copied what the 0:09:08.520 --> 0:09:11.600 United States has done since the early nineteen hundreds, including 0:09:11.800 --> 0:09:14.559 the South China Sea in the early nineteen hundreds, we 0:09:14.600 --> 0:09:16.320 wanted to figure out how to take care of our 0:09:16.360 --> 0:09:19.520 home waters in the Caribbean. So he continues to copy us. 0:09:19.520 --> 0:09:21.880 His military continues to grow. He's got a lot of 0:09:21.960 --> 0:09:24.360 churn in the military. He has fired a lot of 0:09:24.360 --> 0:09:27.040 his senior officers, so I don't know how much he 0:09:27.120 --> 0:09:30.440 trusts his military leadership. But I back to what I said, 0:09:30.480 --> 0:09:32.440 I think it's got to be our president and their 0:09:32.480 --> 0:09:35.520 president that make sure nothing bad really happened. 0:09:35.800 --> 0:09:36.920 Michael Mullin with us here. 0:09:37.080 --> 0:09:40.000 The Admiral of course, in the seventeenth Chairman of the 0:09:40.080 --> 0:09:43.240 Joint Chiefs of Staff, Robert T. Kaplan the number of 0:09:43.360 --> 0:09:45.400 years ago. I throw it at kids, I say, shut 0:09:45.480 --> 0:09:48.520 up and read this. It's Asia's cauldron and the South 0:09:48.640 --> 0:09:53.000 China Sea. What is our submarine capability with that island 0:09:53.040 --> 0:09:55.600 off China where they they're building subs and building up. 0:09:55.679 --> 0:09:56.679 What is their capability? 0:09:56.760 --> 0:09:59.040 What is our capability in the South China Sea? 0:09:59.080 --> 0:10:04.280 Right now most important weapons system in the United States 0:10:04.320 --> 0:10:07.200 military with respect to China as our submarine force, and 0:10:07.240 --> 0:10:11.160 we need to continue to build it. China is obviously 0:10:11.440 --> 0:10:15.040 understands a lot of that. But I mean, when the 0:10:15.080 --> 0:10:17.719 Wall came down in the late eighties, it turns out 0:10:17.760 --> 0:10:20.559 the Soviets were not ten feet tall. The Chinese are 0:10:20.600 --> 0:10:24.280 not ten feet tall. So they've got huge challenges. We 0:10:24.360 --> 0:10:28.439 know that, but that capability, that underwater capability, threatens them. 0:10:28.679 --> 0:10:32.040 Back to Lloyd Austin, to General Austin, the basic idea 0:10:32.120 --> 0:10:36.360 of the Americans considering four bases in the Philippines with 0:10:36.520 --> 0:10:39.720 young Marcos, what does that sea change on the Pacific 0:10:39.800 --> 0:10:42.280 rim of our showing the flag in the Philippines. 0:10:42.320 --> 0:10:45.120 It's huge and it sends a very strong signal to China. 0:10:45.920 --> 0:10:49.360 And when you talk to I talked to my Chinese counterparts, 0:10:49.360 --> 0:10:50.040 they're concerned. 0:10:50.040 --> 0:10:50.880 We are. 0:10:50.920 --> 0:10:54.360 Our strategy is containing them, surrounding them, and it's hard 0:10:54.440 --> 0:10:57.199 to even though we say we don't do that, when 0:10:57.240 --> 0:10:59.079 you're looking at it from Beijing, it sort of looks 0:10:59.120 --> 0:11:02.760 like that. But that's a really important relationship and a 0:11:02.880 --> 0:11:06.920 very very strong shift in terms of our strategy with 0:11:06.960 --> 0:11:08.600 respect to China and all. 0:11:08.640 --> 0:11:10.920 Can you give us a sense of how are men 0:11:10.960 --> 0:11:13.400 and women in uniform today, how do they feel, how 0:11:13.440 --> 0:11:18.280 do they feel about their calling, what they're doing, their missions? 0:11:18.400 --> 0:11:19.720 Can you characterize it a little bit? 0:11:19.760 --> 0:11:22.120 Yeah, I mean these young people and so this from 0:11:22.200 --> 0:11:24.880 e goes back obviously a long time, but during the Wars, 0:11:24.960 --> 0:11:27.679 I was so taken by this younger generation and who 0:11:27.679 --> 0:11:29.600 they were and where they came from and what they 0:11:29.640 --> 0:11:33.280 were committed to. That has continued. So there's a lot 0:11:33.280 --> 0:11:35.960 of churn at the top. I get that, but my 0:11:36.000 --> 0:11:39.680 own experience over many decades. Is for the most part, 0:11:39.800 --> 0:11:42.439 the troops ignore that they've got a mission. They care 0:11:42.480 --> 0:11:45.920 about the country. They're very patriotic and they want to 0:11:45.960 --> 0:11:50.280 do well by the country and represent the United States, 0:11:50.280 --> 0:11:53.280 and they do so and their extraordinary. 0:11:53.600 --> 0:11:56.040 How is our ability to attract and retain? 0:11:56.080 --> 0:11:58.040 You talk to any CEO we put in your seat, 0:11:58.400 --> 0:12:00.480 and they will say one of the biggest challenges is 0:12:00.520 --> 0:12:03.760 attracting and retaining good personnel. 0:12:03.800 --> 0:12:04.880 How is it with the military? 0:12:05.360 --> 0:12:08.080 Well, I mean we historically we've gone up and down. 0:12:08.160 --> 0:12:10.480 We had two or three years ago we had a 0:12:10.480 --> 0:12:14.680 pretty significant downturn. The services have all recognized that, and 0:12:14.679 --> 0:12:17.880 from what I understand now, that's been turned around, and 0:12:17.920 --> 0:12:21.120 so it continues to be very, very attractive from a 0:12:21.160 --> 0:12:24.200 recruiting standpoint, and we recruit. My own view is we 0:12:24.280 --> 0:12:27.320 need to recruit from all over the country from every 0:12:27.360 --> 0:12:30.559 background because of the military, and I states military needs 0:12:30.600 --> 0:12:32.200 to represent America. 0:12:32.720 --> 0:12:34.679 And that's really a key two questions. 0:12:34.920 --> 0:12:36.160 I don't want to spend a lot of time in this, 0:12:36.320 --> 0:12:38.760 but it's certainly germane to Bloomberg news Our editor in 0:12:38.880 --> 0:12:42.400 chief John Micklethwaite, and that is the Pentagon has decided 0:12:42.440 --> 0:12:47.400 to curtail the reporting of the media on our military affairs. 0:12:48.040 --> 0:12:51.360 It just seems across the span of America back to 0:12:51.440 --> 0:12:55.199 the Civil War, even farther back, just outrageous. Your thoughts 0:12:55.480 --> 0:12:58.480 on a limitation of journalism at the Pentagon. 0:12:58.720 --> 0:13:01.679 I think it's, first of all, almost can't do it. 0:13:01.920 --> 0:13:04.000 The reporting is going to continue to happen no matter 0:13:04.920 --> 0:13:09.080 paper well, I mean it's it's I mean that's I 0:13:09.120 --> 0:13:12.880 grew up in that world and feel very strongly about that. 0:13:12.920 --> 0:13:14.920 I think we've been through a lot of this discussion, 0:13:15.280 --> 0:13:17.160 and I think it's been pretty healthy in the last 0:13:17.320 --> 0:13:21.640 two weeks tied to that tragedy, that tragic assassination of 0:13:21.720 --> 0:13:25.600 Charlie Kirk. I think one of the core pillars of 0:13:25.640 --> 0:13:28.800 the United States of American art democracy is free speech, 0:13:29.080 --> 0:13:32.000 and we cannot and should not restrict that in any way. 0:13:32.240 --> 0:13:35.280 I have to talk about my seminal book on leadership 0:13:35.320 --> 0:13:38.080 with a hat tip to James Tavetus and his Leader's bookshelf, 0:13:38.720 --> 0:13:41.520 and that is Everardlrab sat down with the admirals of 0:13:41.559 --> 0:13:44.360 World War Two as they're all becoming more agent not 0:13:44.480 --> 0:13:49.160 young spring chickens like Michael Mullen. The Navy, which is 0:13:49.160 --> 0:13:51.920 the arc of generations from Nimics and. 0:13:51.960 --> 0:13:54.840 Sprague over to where we are now. 0:13:55.600 --> 0:13:57.920 Is it a new navy to Michael mullen or is 0:13:58.840 --> 0:14:02.080 there an arc of integrity there within all the turmoil 0:14:02.160 --> 0:14:02.760 of the Pentagon? 0:14:03.880 --> 0:14:06.480 Would there is an arc of integrity? That's who we 0:14:06.559 --> 0:14:08.839 are And it's not just the Navy. I think it's 0:14:08.920 --> 0:14:12.800 the military that is our core value. It is service, 0:14:13.080 --> 0:14:16.200 It is strategically led, and I know a lot of 0:14:16.200 --> 0:14:19.800 the leaders and they're incredibly capable. Obviously the world has 0:14:19.960 --> 0:14:24.280 changed dramatically, but I think this Navy and its leadership 0:14:24.840 --> 0:14:27.880 is very well positioned to focus on the requirements that 0:14:27.920 --> 0:14:33.240 we have right now, which are vastly different from way back, 0:14:33.840 --> 0:14:36.560 way back then. But it takes that kind of focus 0:14:36.560 --> 0:14:39.360 from leaders to bring the Navy and actually the rest 0:14:39.360 --> 0:14:41.440 of the military to meet the needs that we have 0:14:41.560 --> 0:14:44.280 right now, which is I think we're at an inflection point. 0:14:44.320 --> 0:14:48.600 We're probably at the most dangerous time in my life 0:14:48.640 --> 0:14:51.640 in terms of what's changing in the world, and our 0:14:51.680 --> 0:14:54.120 military is obviously a big part of that. It's not 0:14:54.240 --> 0:14:57.080 the only part. We've got other parts of our government, 0:14:57.160 --> 0:15:01.920 particularly from an economic standpoint, from a diplomatic standpoint, that 0:15:02.080 --> 0:15:06.400 must also focus on our own security, and we do 0:15:06.520 --> 0:15:08.560 that together, and the better we do it together, the 0:15:08.600 --> 0:15:09.920 better our security is going to be. 0:15:10.680 --> 0:15:13.040 Again, going back to America first, that is a change 0:15:13.080 --> 0:15:15.720 in doctrine since the end of the Second World War, 0:15:15.760 --> 0:15:18.640 where we found ourselves in a leadership position. Whether we 0:15:18.680 --> 0:15:20.440 wanted to be there or not, we were there, and 0:15:20.880 --> 0:15:24.200 I think that's created NATO and the whole world order 0:15:24.280 --> 0:15:25.200 that we've all grown up with. 0:15:25.880 --> 0:15:27.880 Is that a risk of changing this is? 0:15:28.560 --> 0:15:28.800 Well? 0:15:28.840 --> 0:15:32.320 I mean, if you listen to the discussion, it may be. 0:15:33.600 --> 0:15:35.480 And I think we need to pay attention to what's 0:15:35.680 --> 0:15:39.280 actually happening on the ground. How many forces have actually 0:15:39.320 --> 0:15:42.880 come home not that many. How many commitments have been reduced, 0:15:43.080 --> 0:15:45.520 not that many. We're still in the Gulf, We're still 0:15:45.520 --> 0:15:48.680 in Europe obviously, we're still in the Western Pacific in 0:15:48.680 --> 0:15:50.800 that part of the world. So I would look at 0:15:50.840 --> 0:15:54.400 execution as opposed to just paying attention to what's being said. 0:15:54.440 --> 0:15:55.480 What is ancient heir? 0:15:55.560 --> 0:15:58.920 As a final question, ad well, is America has to 0:15:58.960 --> 0:15:59.680 show the flag? 0:16:00.440 --> 0:16:01.160 How do we do that? 0:16:02.080 --> 0:16:05.080 Well, I mean, I'm a I'm a joint guy, but 0:16:05.120 --> 0:16:07.360 I'm a Navy guy. 0:16:07.640 --> 0:16:10.560 Straveta said, you have to understand he is a Navy guy. 0:16:10.840 --> 0:16:12.640 One of the one of the things you learn when 0:16:12.640 --> 0:16:14.280 you grow up is you're showing the flag and you're 0:16:14.280 --> 0:16:16.920 showing it in places that other people one haven't even 0:16:16.960 --> 0:16:19.720 heard of and two maybe not they the people, the 0:16:20.080 --> 0:16:23.560 locals have not heard of us. And that that flag 0:16:23.640 --> 0:16:27.200 represents so much to so many not just to Americans. 0:16:27.200 --> 0:16:30.280 I've been around the world a lot for decades, and 0:16:30.400 --> 0:16:33.240 that flag means so much to so many people in 0:16:33.320 --> 0:16:37.840 terms of freedom, opportunity, uh and and a better future. 0:16:38.000 --> 0:16:40.520 And that continues to be the case, and we need 0:16:40.560 --> 0:16:41.600 to continue to show it. 0:16:41.800 --> 0:16:44.080 Ederyl, thank you so much. Edylan with us here at the. 0:16:44.040 --> 0:16:49.320 Bloomberg Global Forum. Stay with us. More from Bloomberg Surveillance 0:16:49.400 --> 0:16:50.720 coming up after this. 0:16:58.000 --> 0:17:01.560 You're listening to the Bloomberg Surveillance Podcast. Catch us live 0:17:01.640 --> 0:17:04.800 weekday afternoons from seven to ten am Eastern Listen on 0:17:04.880 --> 0:17:08.520 Applecarplay and Android Otto with the Bloomberg Business app, or 0:17:08.680 --> 0:17:10.200 watch us live on YouTube. 0:17:10.480 --> 0:17:13.160 Joined us always in forever with the Bank of America 0:17:13.200 --> 0:17:17.119 and of course rivercon Carbon chairwoman. Today here at the 0:17:17.119 --> 0:17:20.719 Bloomberg Global Forum. I'd lead with the Red Sox, but 0:17:21.400 --> 0:17:23.520 I guess I won't it's fun to watch them here 0:17:23.960 --> 0:17:26.040 in September. I'm going to lead with you and I 0:17:26.080 --> 0:17:29.640 shared a stage at Davos a million years ago. Savita 0:17:29.720 --> 0:17:33.119 Supermanian was in the audience, Savia Bloss and all it 0:17:33.160 --> 0:17:37.240 was cop Whatever is COP thirty coming up in Brazil? 0:17:37.400 --> 0:17:40.280 Is it even remotely like what you and I did 0:17:40.320 --> 0:17:41.840 in Davos years ago? 0:17:43.160 --> 0:17:46.080 Well, I think the issues are the same. I think 0:17:46.160 --> 0:17:51.280 that the enthusiasm is, let's say, a bit depleted these days. 0:17:51.320 --> 0:17:54.480 But I think it's more confusion than depletion. If right, 0:17:54.560 --> 0:17:55.639 to be honest. 0:17:55.600 --> 0:18:00.200 Can the world go alone without America and move forward? 0:18:00.240 --> 0:18:03.359 And the debates in the financing of climate change? 0:18:03.680 --> 0:18:06.199 No, but I think the financing of climate change is 0:18:06.240 --> 0:18:10.000 happening anyway, So it is. First of all, it's a 0:18:10.040 --> 0:18:13.600 market opportunity which has been lost along the way. And 0:18:14.359 --> 0:18:17.840 climate change is real. We can debate that, but the 0:18:17.920 --> 0:18:21.480 scientists don't debate it. And honestly, the largest corporations in 0:18:21.520 --> 0:18:24.679 the world aren't debating it. Europe is not debating it. 0:18:24.760 --> 0:18:29.080 Their rules are being implemented as we speak two and 0:18:29.359 --> 0:18:33.360 twenty six, twenty twenty seven. So there'll be a market, 0:18:34.000 --> 0:18:35.840 a cap and trade market that will be real. 0:18:35.960 --> 0:18:36.440 I've got to. 0:18:36.440 --> 0:18:39.800 Enterrupt Paul, this headline that's just out and live. This 0:18:40.600 --> 0:18:45.680 oracle looks to raise fifteen billion dollars on corporate bond sale, 0:18:46.320 --> 0:18:50.200 which is life goes on. You know, if transactions happen, 0:18:50.240 --> 0:18:52.280 you do this, you do that, and you go to 0:18:52.320 --> 0:18:55.280 the bond market with Bank of America and you raise money. 0:18:55.320 --> 0:18:57.560 I mean, life goes on, Paul, Just so, I thought 0:18:57.600 --> 0:18:58.240 that was important. 0:18:58.520 --> 0:19:01.760 I know, we'll talk to some dead people about that. 0:19:02.119 --> 0:19:04.359 So what does it mean? And when the President of 0:19:04.359 --> 0:19:06.159 the United States gets up in front of the United 0:19:06.320 --> 0:19:10.480 Nations General Assembly yesterday and says, effectively climate change is 0:19:10.520 --> 0:19:10.879 a hoax? 0:19:10.880 --> 0:19:14.160 What does that mean to the whole movement? 0:19:14.320 --> 0:19:19.840 I guess globally, Well, I'm sure it's suppressing to the movement, 0:19:20.040 --> 0:19:24.960 but I also think that people largely believe climate change 0:19:24.960 --> 0:19:28.000 is not a hoax and they see very real things 0:19:28.040 --> 0:19:30.000 in front of them. I do think it was a 0:19:30.040 --> 0:19:33.959 mistake in years past to talk about the Arctic or 0:19:34.119 --> 0:19:38.080 coral reefs or icebergs melting, because people don't relate to that. 0:19:38.400 --> 0:19:40.280 What they do relate to is. 0:19:42.000 --> 0:19:47.440 Extreme weather. Insurance prices going up in coastal areas asthma 0:19:47.600 --> 0:19:51.879 on the rise. Very prosaic things, maybe, but they're the 0:19:52.000 --> 0:19:55.800 very real things. The fact that farmland has been degraded, 0:19:55.960 --> 0:20:01.320 forests are degraded, and we have emerging markets that all 0:20:01.359 --> 0:20:04.440 want to industrialize and they'd love to do it more quickly, 0:20:04.520 --> 0:20:07.679 and they could do it more cheaply with clean energy 0:20:07.720 --> 0:20:10.560 than they can do with fossil fuels. This isn't an 0:20:10.680 --> 0:20:14.480 anti fossil fuels dietripe. It is just a matter of 0:20:14.600 --> 0:20:17.240 clean energy is cheaper, and it's what's on the rise, 0:20:17.280 --> 0:20:19.720 and it's what's happening in emerging markets. 0:20:19.800 --> 0:20:21.200 But it has to be financed. 0:20:22.160 --> 0:20:25.240 Talk to us about the financing house. The environment changed 0:20:25.280 --> 0:20:28.040 over the last year, last two or three years. 0:20:28.400 --> 0:20:33.160 Well, there were products like Rubicon is a carbon credits company, 0:20:33.160 --> 0:20:35.840 and that had great promise in twenty twenty one. By 0:20:35.840 --> 0:20:39.920 twenty twenty three it was in a depression. But twenty 0:20:40.040 --> 0:20:43.439 twenty four to twenty twenty five has been better. It 0:20:43.520 --> 0:20:46.840 promises to be many times this size by twenty thirty, 0:20:46.880 --> 0:20:51.919 which is companies figure out what their carbon footprints and 0:20:51.960 --> 0:20:55.679 they buy carbon credits to sort of cover the delta 0:20:55.760 --> 0:20:58.000 between what is today and what they need to do 0:20:58.040 --> 0:21:03.040 in the future, and that money to everything from biodiversity, 0:21:03.920 --> 0:21:09.080 you know, reforesting places in the world or farmland, or 0:21:09.119 --> 0:21:12.000 it can go into industrial kinds of direct air capture, 0:21:12.160 --> 0:21:16.080 or it can be concessionary capital for emerging markets so 0:21:16.119 --> 0:21:17.639 that they can get going. 0:21:17.760 --> 0:21:19.280 And what you. 0:21:19.280 --> 0:21:24.520