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Speaker 1: Hey, guys, Saga and Crystal here.

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Speaker 2: So Randy Fine, you know, was out doing his Randy

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Speaker 2: Fine thing being Florida six being a disgusting, genocidal racist,

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Speaker 2: and he tweeted this, split this up on the screen.

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Speaker 2: If they force us to choose, the choice between dogs

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Speaker 2: and Muslims is not a difficult one.

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Speaker 3: So this was in response, we can put this up.

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Speaker 3: He had to respond to his own tweet by saying,

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Speaker 3: for context, this is a leader of one of the

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Speaker 3: key mainstream Muslim groups that supported Mom Dannie And it

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Speaker 3: was a post on x from Nardine Kiswani, who said

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Speaker 3: earlier this month, finally NYC is coming to Islam. Dogs

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Speaker 3: definitely have a place in society, just not as indoor pets.

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Speaker 3: Like we've said along they are on clean, a joke

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Speaker 3: that I think was also probably a little bit rooted

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Speaker 3: in some sincere feelings.

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Speaker 4: There are cultural differences with dogs, Crystal.

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Speaker 3: There are some people who do find it to be

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Speaker 3: unclean culturally that folks keep dogs in their house.

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Speaker 4: Not you, though you're dog lover.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I have a dog. I would also say she

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Speaker 2: does make my house less.

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Speaker 4: I'm clean.

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Speaker 2: Matter, But yeah, I mean, this is just like to me, Emily,

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Speaker 2: this was sort of perfectly emblematic of Trump, the Trump regime,

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Speaker 2: and Trump two point zero in particular. You have a

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Speaker 2: dumb fake outrage fest. By the way, based on lies

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Speaker 2: number one live they're framing this woman is she's like

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Speaker 2: some top zoron Mandania advisor. She's not an advisor to

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Speaker 2: him whatsoever that we know she.

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Speaker 3: Supported his group supported him. Yeah, according to Randy Fine,

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Speaker 3: that's what her.

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Speaker 5: They frame her like.

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Speaker 2: She's like, you know, in the mayor's office every day,

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Speaker 2: guiding him on policy with regard to dogs and other things.

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Speaker 3: She's not exactly Seal Weaver. Well, we're on the scale

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Speaker 3: of Zoran.

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Speaker 2: Contrary, she's on the you know, she's on the council

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Speaker 2: that's going to impose Sharia law in New York City.

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Speaker 4: That's her.

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Speaker 2: She's the head of that task force for zoron Mondani.

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Speaker 2: So anyway, the framing of her relationship that I saw

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Speaker 2: from a bunch of consertives totally incomplete lie. This is

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Speaker 2: a joke, right, It's clear, like and then the New

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Speaker 2: York Post, which is obsessed with Zorn, I think they're

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Speaker 2: the ones that write this up like, oh my god,

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Speaker 2: like it's some you know, newsworthy scandal that someone put

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Speaker 2: a joke on Twitter about this. And then so you've

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Speaker 2: got something that's rooted in idiocy and lies, and then

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Speaker 2: you have this total like genocide. I mean, Randy Fine

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Speaker 2: is a disgusting, disgusting person and this is not the

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Speaker 2: first in right whatsoever. And we've got some of that

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Speaker 2: as well that we could put up on the screen.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I was gonna say, let's just go to D

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Speaker 3: seven here. Yeah, we visit some of what Randy Fine.

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Speaker 2: Let's remind let's remind what this man is all about.

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Speaker 2: Here this is a brand new one. This also just

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Speaker 2: came out this week. He says, Palestinian is a synonym

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Speaker 2: for evil. Okay, got that one. The anti Muslim bigotry

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Speaker 2: with this guy is through the roof, absolutely disgusting. He says,

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Speaker 2: Jihadi Momdanni is to blame him for the rise in

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Speaker 2: Muslim terror happening across New York City. Denaturalize and deport

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Speaker 2: him now, okay, so deport Mamdani. Deport Mamdani, who is

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Speaker 2: a US citizen. May the streets of Gaza overflow with

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Speaker 2: the blood of these animals talking about Palestinians. These animals

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Speaker 2: live in Florida, hopefully not for long. There is no

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Speaker 2: suffering adequate for these animals. May the streets of Gaza

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Speaker 2: overflow with blood. Tell your fellow Muslim terrorists to release

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Speaker 2: the hostages and surrender. Until then, starve away talking about

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Speaker 2: the Yeah, talking about the fact that you've got the

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Speaker 2: you know, the Israel's imposing a siege on the entirety

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Speaker 2: of the Gaza strip, including women and children. So just

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Speaker 2: an overt, undeniable racist, anti Muslim bigot whose rhetoric about

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Speaker 2: Muslims very much echoes the rhetoric about Jews leaning up

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Speaker 2: to the Holocaust. So you know, now he's he's embraced

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Speaker 2: this style of Nazi propaganda to completely dehumanize a group

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Speaker 2: of people. So you've got the combination of something fake

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Speaker 2: outrage based on idiocy and lies, combined with just overtly evil,

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Speaker 2: dehumanizing sentiments from Randy Fine. And you know, there were

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Speaker 2: some conservatives like you, Megan Kelly said something. There were

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Speaker 2: a few, like, not that many, but a few conservative

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Speaker 2: influencers who had something to say about this. As of

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Speaker 2: this morning, there is not a single elected Republican official

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Speaker 2: who has said anything about this at all.

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Speaker 5: And this is the same group in.

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Speaker 2: Congress who censured Rashida Talib because she said from the

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Speaker 2: River to the Seed, Palestine would be free, a rally

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Speaker 2: chant that she explains, in her view, means equal rights

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Speaker 2: for all. That is what she's calling for. She gets censured,

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Speaker 2: and this disgusting, vile, racist bigot just gets off Scott

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Speaker 2: free and gets to go on cable doos and be

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Speaker 2: treated like he's a normal human being.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: I mean, he's used the term quote filthy Arab. He

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Speaker 3: has said. I believe he said there's no such thing

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Speaker 3: as an innocent Palestinian child.

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Speaker 4: That's something to that effect.

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Speaker 3: I'll find the exact quote while we're talking about this,

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Speaker 3: but yeah, I'm My response to him was simple. It

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Speaker 3: wasn't even to get into an argument. It was just

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Speaker 3: D three because you know, he's purportedly conservative, so as

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Speaker 3: a conservative, I just responded, all human beings are created

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Speaker 3: in the image of God.

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Speaker 4: For that I got piled on.

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Speaker 3: There was this is D four Joel Berry from the

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Speaker 3: babylon b respond And it doesn't mean we have to

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Speaker 3: let all of them in our country. And so people

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Speaker 3: were also like, hey, it was a joke, blah blah blah.

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Speaker 3: It's like, I don't think anything justifies a sitting congressman

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Speaker 3: playing fast and loose with language that dehumanizes citizens. This

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Speaker 3: is not a Jewish country or a Christian country. This

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Speaker 3: is a country where we have the First Amendment. Thank God,

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Speaker 3: we have the First Amendment. And that is dehumanizing his citizens,

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Speaker 3: even if it's a joke. He's a congressman, and I

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Speaker 3: know we're in the Trump era, but he's a congressman. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: And to dehumanize other people, whether you're joking, you're responding

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Speaker 3: to a joke. He tweeted this without any context. First

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Speaker 3: of all, this guy is way too online. He's like

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Speaker 3: just randomly posting stuff as a congressman.

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Speaker 5: As if we're all supposed to even know what this country.

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Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, exactly, which is reckless. If you're going to say, quote,

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Speaker 3: if they force us to choose, the choice between dogs

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Speaker 3: and Muslims is not a difficult one. So it's obviously

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Speaker 3: dehumanized in language. It should obviously be something that people

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Speaker 3: say is not okay. I guess we have a Mila

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Speaker 3: Yanopolis response.

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Speaker 5: Outrage.

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Speaker 2: You are a man of low moral character, unfit to

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Speaker 2: hold public office. Now when Milo Napolis is lecturing you

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Speaker 2: about your moral character, you've done fucked up. Although your nfeline,

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Speaker 2: he says, although in your case quote unfit falls woefully.

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Speaker 2: We support fat jaming in the context of Randy Fine

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Speaker 2: always he was.

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Speaker 4: He was getting roasted badly and rightfully.

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Speaker 2: So right, yeah, Well, and here's the thing, I mean,

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Speaker 2: it's it's like cliche and tried to say at this point,

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Speaker 2: but imagine if you know Ilhan Omer or chijahalib had said,

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Speaker 2: if they force us to choose the choice between dogs

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Speaker 2: and Jews is not a difficult one. You think that

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Speaker 2: they would that everyone. Oh, it's just a joke. It's

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Speaker 2: just a joke, you know about cultural differences. It's just

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Speaker 2: a joke because we you know, that doesn't mean we

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Speaker 2: have to let all the Jews in our country to

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Speaker 2: the babylon Be's point.

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Speaker 5: You know, it's it.

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Speaker 2: It would be a rightfully so in my opinion, it

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Speaker 2: would be a national scandal. She would be censured, very

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Speaker 2: possibly kicked down of Congress. There would be national news

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Speaker 2: cycles about this. Every Democrat would be asked what they

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Speaker 2: think about those comments and would you know, and would

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Speaker 2: condemn them, by the way, and instead this is just

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Speaker 2: you know, I do think democrats are especially progressives, are

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Speaker 2: going to try to push on this because Republicans should

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Speaker 2: have to answer. Republican elected republicans should have to answer

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Speaker 2: what they think about these comments and these sentiments. They

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Speaker 2: should be forced to go on the record about whether

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Speaker 2: they agree that, you know, Muslims are lower than dogs

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Speaker 2: and that dogs should be chosen over Muslims. They should

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Speaker 2: be forced to answer for all of his rhetoric and

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Speaker 2: explain whether or not they agree with it and why.

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Speaker 3: Well he said, yeah, I found the quote there's no

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Speaker 3: such thing as innocent Palestinian civilians, and so to Crystal's point,

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Speaker 3: that is the type of language that is dehumanizing an

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Speaker 3: entire group of people, whereas categorizing literally every single person

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Speaker 3: who considered the considers themselves Palestinian to be a combatant. Essentially,

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Speaker 3: that's how you end up slaughtering innocent people, because you

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Speaker 3: are engaged in a process of categorizing people as worthy

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Speaker 3: of combat deaths.

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Speaker 4: And that is disgusting.

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Speaker 3: It's a problem for the United States, a problem for

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Speaker 3: our foreign policy obviously, and it should be an easy

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Speaker 3: thing to just I mean, this is something he said

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Speaker 3: long ago. So when you then also see him posting this,

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Speaker 3: this wasn't posted in a vacuum. And one of the

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Speaker 3: reasons that like I felt compelled to respond is because

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Speaker 3: he has a history of saying this kind of stuff,

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Speaker 3: and so it's not like you can just say, oh.

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Speaker 4: We really fine. Oh he's just making a joke about dogs, haha.

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Speaker 3: He's just talking about, you know, whether you should let

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Speaker 3: people have massive cultural differences with us into the country. No,

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Speaker 3: he's been doing this over and over again. He obviously,

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Speaker 3: when you're saying things like filthy arab and saying there's

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Speaker 3: no such thing as innocent Palestinian civilians, and then you

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Speaker 3: dehumanize people and say you'd rather have dogs in the

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Speaker 3: United States than Muslims. I mean, it's it's not acceptable

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Speaker 3: from a congressman.

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Speaker 4: Again.

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Speaker 3: I know that we're in a post Trump era and

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Speaker 3: our standards have been lowered.

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Speaker 4: They were already low. I get it, but.

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Speaker 3: It's just an easy thing to say, like, dude, cut

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Speaker 3: it out. I think Megan responded to put that, she

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Speaker 3: just said, what the fuck is this?

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Speaker 4: Basically, wtf is this? The next element?

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Speaker 5: This is Randy Fine, This is Randy Fine.

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Speaker 4: Things big Randy. We should mention that Ryan.

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Speaker 3: I interviewed a man running in a primary against Randy Fine,

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Speaker 3: whose name is Aaron Baker. I think he's like a

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Speaker 3: roofer in Florida six and.

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Speaker 4: He's running against this.

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Speaker 3: He's not just running a primary campaign against Randy Fine

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Speaker 3: on all the issues. He specifically has called out Randy

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Speaker 3: Fine for talking about people in this way over and

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Speaker 3: over again. So if you happen to live in Florida six,

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Speaker 3: go check out the Baker campaign.

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Speaker 2: And he's running as a Republican. He's running a Republican's

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Speaker 2: a very republican district. And Randy Fine when he got

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Speaker 2: elected here dramatically underperformed. You know, it's it's like a

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Speaker 2: republic I don't know, I'm make Ampthie numbers. Was like

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Speaker 2: a Republican twelve plus twenty five district. Probably he won

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Speaker 2: it by like single digits, you know, And it's because

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Speaker 2: he's just like people are revolted by him, that he's

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Speaker 2: so much that couldn't overcome this partisan of a lean

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Speaker 2: of a district. But you know, I'm glad this guy's

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Speaker 2: running against him in the Republican primary because that's where

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Speaker 2: the next congress person will be chosen. In that primer,

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Speaker 2: is very unlikely that a Democrat would be able to

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Speaker 2: unseat him. So go check him out and see if

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Speaker 2: he is to your taste, if you are in that district,

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Speaker 2: or if you want to support someone who wants to

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Speaker 2: get this man out of Congress because he is just

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Speaker 2: a disgrace and.

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Speaker 3: Wants to stand against this. From a conservative perspective, you know,

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Speaker 3: it's unacceptable obviously, especially if you're trying to make the

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Speaker 3: point that your belief or if you're trying to show

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Speaker 3: people you believe that everyone is created equal and in

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Speaker 3: the dignified image of God. This is not an acceptable

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Speaker 3: piece of rhetoric, and it's not an acceptable position to

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Speaker 3: pretend you have the moral high ground while also having

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Speaker 3: Bandy Fine in the coalition. So check out Aaron Baker.

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Speaker 3: All right, Crystal, let's speaking of pasign in the Middle East.

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Speaker 3: Let's talk about the West Bank.

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Speaker 2: There has been a massive acceleration in the process of

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Speaker 2: stealing land in the occupied West Bank, and there's one

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Speaker 2: reporter who has been covering the story extensively that we're

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Speaker 2: very happy to join us this morning. Jasper Nathaniel is

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Speaker 2: an independent journalist covering the occupied West Bank and writes

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Speaker 2: over at his substack infinite jazz.

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Speaker 5: Great to see a Jasper.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, thanks for having me back our pleasures.

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Speaker 2: So let's go and put your latest haear sheet up

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Speaker 2: on the screen, headlined here annexation breaks containment where you

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Speaker 2: talk about. Of course, this has been a multi decade

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Speaker 2: process of stealing land from Palestinians executed by the Israeli government,

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Speaker 2: but there's been such an acceleration in recent days and

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Speaker 2: weeks that it has actually broken through in some mainstream

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Speaker 2: media coverage. You say here with a new package of

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Speaker 2: cabinet decisions, Israel's message to Palestinians in the West Bank

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Speaker 2: is clear, take the money and run. Just bring us

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Speaker 2: up to speed on some of the latest decisions that

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Speaker 2: have been made that have led you to this conclusion

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Speaker 2: and led to some actual outbreak of coverage from the

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Speaker 2: mainstream process.

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Speaker 6: Yeah. So just to take a quick step back.

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Speaker 7: You know Bezilil Smotrich, who's the finance Minister of Israel.

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Speaker 6: He's this far right settler.

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Speaker 7: He in early twenty twenty three pulled off what was

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Speaker 7: effectively a sort of bureaucratic coup where he took control

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Speaker 7: of the of governance of the West Bank. And just

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Speaker 7: a reminder, the West Bank is technically and legally a

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Speaker 7: military occupation, which means that it cannot be governed by

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Speaker 7: the state, by the Israeli government. It has to be

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Speaker 7: overseen by the military, and the military has to adhere

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Speaker 7: to the laws of the occupied country or of the

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Speaker 7: occupied people. So what that means is that the laws

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Speaker 7: from Jordanian times preoccupation in nineteen sixty seven are still

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Speaker 7: supposed to be in effect, but those laws have been

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Speaker 7: steadily eroded. And what happened in twenty twenty three was

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Speaker 7: Smotrich installed himself in the Defense ministry, put in basically

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Speaker 7: a chain of command of settlers and stripped all the

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Speaker 7: bureaucratic guard rails away from the settlement movement, who is

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Speaker 7: determined to take over the entire West Bank. So over

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Speaker 7: the last three years or so, there's been all these

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Speaker 7: new policy initiatives meant to both strip authority away from

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Speaker 7: the Palestinian authority but also from the Israeli military, who

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Speaker 7: not necessarily have the same political or ideo ideological agenda

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Speaker 7: of the settlers.

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Speaker 6: And so what the latest cabinet decisions did.

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Speaker 7: The first one that I think is the reason this

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Speaker 7: story sort of broke into mainstream coverage was basically took

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Speaker 7: out what was left of the Oslo Accords, So the

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Speaker 7: Oslo two Accords, I should say, in ninety two. What

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Speaker 7: it did was it divided the West Bank into areas A, B,

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Speaker 7: and C. And there's this misconception that Area A, B

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Speaker 7: and C means who owns the land. But to be clear,

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Speaker 7: the land was still Palestinian land. It never became part

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Speaker 7: of Israel. The occupation was always legally technically supposed to

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Speaker 7: be temporary. So what Oslo did was it said that

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Speaker 7: in Area A, the Palestinian authority is full control. In

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Speaker 7: Area B Israel. These Israeli military, I should say, and

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Speaker 7: the Palestinian Authority have joint security control, and the PA

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Speaker 7: has administrative control, and then an area of C Israel

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Speaker 7: has full control. But again that land, despite who had

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Speaker 7: administrative control, still belongs to the Palestinians. So what the

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Speaker 7: the first Cabinet decision did was it said that now

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Speaker 7: in addition to having administrative control in Area C, the

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Speaker 7: Israeli military is now allowed to go into areas A

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Speaker 7: and B to take control of things like housing development, demolitions,

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Speaker 7: all sorts of sort of municipal activities. And the way

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Speaker 7: the law is phrased, or the cabinet decision is phrased,

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Speaker 7: is typical of how they do things. It doesn't just

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Speaker 7: say Israel now has control of Area A and B.

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Speaker 7: What it says is in instances where there is an

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Speaker 7: environmental hazard, or there is risk to a Jewish heritage site,

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Speaker 7: or there is you know, water theft or something like that,

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Speaker 7: then Israel has the ability to go in and take

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Speaker 7: control to remedy it. But these are essentially pretenses that

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Speaker 7: Israel uses to go into these places take control. So

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Speaker 7: for example, Israel makes it impossible for most Palestinian cities

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Speaker 7: to have a true waste management system. They sabotage their

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Speaker 7: dumping grounds, they steal their routes, they take over garbage trucks.

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Speaker 7: Now they can go into these places where the Palestinians

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Speaker 7: have been left with no choice but to burn their waste.

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Speaker 7: They can then accuse them of creating air pollution and

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Speaker 7: take control of that whole area. So that is just

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Speaker 7: basically the last remnants of where Palestinians actually theoretically had

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Speaker 7: administrative control in Area A. Israel has now taken that

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Speaker 7: away from them. So that was the first thing. The

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Speaker 7: next thing and the reason I said in that and

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Speaker 7: that subhead, take the money and run was what they

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Speaker 7: have basically done is made it really easy for Israelis

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Speaker 7: to now go directly to Palestinian landowners and buy their

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Speaker 7: land in the West Bank. And you know, they have

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Speaker 7: made conditions so bad for Palestinians in the West Bank,

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Speaker 7: both in terms of like the checks and the the

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Speaker 7: you know, increased violence, but they've also really suffocated the economy.

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Speaker 7: They've prevented one hundred thousand Palestinians from going into Israel

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Speaker 7: to work where they were working before. And they've basically

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Speaker 7: caused unemployment and poverty to soar. And now they're saying,

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Speaker 7: no problem, you can just you know, we'll buy you out.

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Speaker 7: You can take the money and go somewhere else. And

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Speaker 7: you know, that is a problem for a number of reasons,

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Speaker 7: but the biggest one is that for a long time,

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Speaker 7: the Israeli military actually had veto power over settlers purchasing

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Speaker 7: Palestinian land. And again the reason for this is because

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Speaker 7: while the settlers want all of the West Bank, the

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Speaker 7: Israeli military historically has been concerned with maintaining some sort

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Speaker 7: of stability or at the very least, you know, ruling

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Speaker 7: with an iron fist. And the settlers are not interested

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Speaker 7: in that. What they would like is to cause chaos

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Speaker 7: and to you know, draw the military in lead to

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Speaker 7: you know, an event where they end up with the land.

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Speaker 7: So now where settlers used to try to, you know,

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Speaker 7: go and buy Palestinian land in like in the mid

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Speaker 7: Deep area, a in the middle of a Palestinian city,

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Speaker 7: the military would say, no chance, that's going to cause

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Speaker 7: a war.

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Speaker 6: Now they can just go and do it.

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Speaker 7: They can buy land wherever they want, wherever Palestinian is

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Speaker 7: willing to sell it to them, and then the military

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Speaker 7: is obligated to go protect them wherever they are. So

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Speaker 7: what it means is that the settlers are now going

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Speaker 7: to be effectively dictating settlement policy by going wherever they want.

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Speaker 7: They're already doing that in the sense of, you know,

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Speaker 7: building these illegal outposts, but now they have a formal

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Speaker 7: legal route to go wherever they want in Palestinian territory,

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Speaker 7: bring the military with them, cause to start a fight,

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Speaker 7: and you know, ultimately end up with that land. So

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Speaker 7: that those are just two of you know, I could I.

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Speaker 3: Could go on, well, I wanted to ask about some

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Speaker 3: of the big picture of politics that maybe even what

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Speaker 3: you could go on here, Jasper, there's a Jerusalem Post

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Speaker 3: headline that didn't get a lot of attention at least

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Speaker 3: that I saw Jews pray on Jerusalems Temple mount as

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Speaker 3: decades old status quo begins to shift. This is one

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Speaker 3: of the most important questions in the entire conflict, And

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Speaker 3: just reading from the piece, they mention here that in

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Speaker 3: the past few weeks and what amounts to a dramatic

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Speaker 3: change to the status quo that has prevailed since nineteen

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Speaker 3: sixty seven, police have begun to allow Jewish prayer on

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Speaker 3: the Temple Mount under certain conditions. That is a very

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Speaker 3: big change, especially relative to the amount of news coverage

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Speaker 3: that's gotten. The Jerusalem Post also mentions that in the

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Speaker 3: past few years, the number of Jews as sending to

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Speaker 3: the Temple Mount has increased dramatically to more than sixty

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Speaker 3: eight thousand in the Hebrew year that ended in September

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Speaker 3: twenty twenty five, an increase of twenty two percent over

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Speaker 3: the previous year, according to an activist group. So the

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Speaker 3: big picture politics, I mean, the landscape here is mounting

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Speaker 3: pressure from the Israeli religious right to completely take over

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Speaker 3: the land and to undo a lot of the norms

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Speaker 3: or the legal standard. It's actually more power, believe in

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Speaker 3: the norms that have governed the area in decades.

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Speaker 4: Is that a correct reading of some of this Jasper?

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Speaker 6: Yeah, absolutely.

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Speaker 7: I mean, you know, to be honest, it's hard to

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Speaker 7: sort of say how much of it is driven by

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Speaker 7: an actual, you know, religious fervor and how much of

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Speaker 7: it is purely sort of territorial ambition. I mean, I

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Speaker 7: think with the settlers that line is impossible to find.

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Speaker 6: But you know, what you're.

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Speaker 7: Talking about is Jews increasingly going to the Temple Mount

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Speaker 7: to pray. But in these new cabinet decisions, Israel has

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Speaker 7: again sort of formalized this in two other sacred areas,

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Speaker 7: so in the ibrahimasque in Hebron and in the Rachel's

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Speaker 7: Tomb area near Bethlehem. These are areas that are are

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Speaker 7: deeply sacred to Muslims and to Palestinians in particular, and

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Speaker 7: in these new cabinet decisions, Israel has seized administrative control

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Speaker 7: away from the Palestinians, given it to Israel, which will

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Speaker 7: make it more and more difficult for Palestinians to be

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Speaker 7: able to, you know, go to these sacred places in peace.

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Speaker 7: Israel will now be spending settlements into these areas, demolishing buildings.

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Speaker 7: So you know, what you just described is one of

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Speaker 7: these sort of informal things that the settlers have been

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Speaker 7: doing to take control and cause chaos. And you know,

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Speaker 7: to be blunt about it, like the tail is wagging

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Speaker 7: the dog, because it always starts with the settlers just

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Speaker 7: going rogue and you know, going somewhere where they shouldn't be,

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Speaker 7: bring the military with them. And then months later a

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Speaker 7: new policy initiative comes through or a cabinet decision or

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Speaker 7: some sort of actual legislation in the Kanesset that formalizes it.

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Speaker 7: And so, you know, the same thing is happening with

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Speaker 7: the settler violence. You know, you hear occasionally that the

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Speaker 7: Israeli government or the military condemns, you know, one of

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Speaker 7: these settler attacks, usually when the settlers attacked the military,

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Speaker 7: but every once in a while when they actually attack

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Speaker 7: a Palestinian village, and every once in a while they

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Speaker 7: actually arrest somebody.

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Speaker 6: But then what they do is they.

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Speaker 7: Give money and defense and funds and weapons to the

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Speaker 7: settlers who are out on the front line building these outposts.

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Speaker 7: Like I said before, the military has to follow them

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Speaker 7: wherever they go. And so what started as a couple

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Speaker 7: of settlers going and terrorizing and wreaking havoc on a

438
00:23:10,520 --> 00:23:14,400
Speaker 7: Palestinian village, over time the government comes in and authorizes

439
00:23:14,440 --> 00:23:17,000
Speaker 7: it as a formal settlement. And so it is this

440
00:23:17,080 --> 00:23:23,560
Speaker 7: really sort of nefarious system where the most extremeist, far right, ambitious,

441
00:23:24,040 --> 00:23:29,160
Speaker 7: frankly racist of the entire political block in Israel are

442
00:23:30,080 --> 00:23:33,960
Speaker 7: controlling all of the policy decisions in the West Bank

443
00:23:34,040 --> 00:23:36,240
Speaker 7: by just doing whatever they want to do and knowing

444
00:23:36,280 --> 00:23:39,440
Speaker 7: that the government will follow close behind to formalize, to

445
00:23:39,560 --> 00:23:40,760
Speaker 7: legalize what they've been doing.

446
00:23:41,280 --> 00:23:42,919
Speaker 5: Let's put E three up on the screen.

447
00:23:43,040 --> 00:23:46,320
Speaker 2: This is, you know, some of the recent West Bank

448
00:23:46,520 --> 00:23:51,320
Speaker 2: attacks by violent settlers. And you know, I think the

449
00:23:51,440 --> 00:23:54,679
Speaker 2: reporting that you have done here, Jos, we're not just

450
00:23:54,800 --> 00:23:57,360
Speaker 2: on the you know, the bureaucratic moves that have been made,

451
00:23:57,440 --> 00:24:02,440
Speaker 2: but also on this horrific and escalating settler violence.

452
00:24:02,440 --> 00:24:04,240
Speaker 5: Is you show how the two work together.

453
00:24:04,680 --> 00:24:06,960
Speaker 2: Because, as you said, if you know, if you are

454
00:24:07,119 --> 00:24:11,440
Speaker 2: not only having your life made extremely difficulty by the

455
00:24:11,560 --> 00:24:15,679
Speaker 2: checkpoints and by the dehumanizing apartheid nature of the system

456
00:24:15,680 --> 00:24:18,320
Speaker 2: and the occupied West Bank, but then you also live

457
00:24:18,480 --> 00:24:23,280
Speaker 2: under the direct threat of settler violence. And now the

458
00:24:23,320 --> 00:24:25,639
Speaker 2: government has passed these laws that make it easy for

459
00:24:25,680 --> 00:24:28,960
Speaker 2: settlers to identify. Okay, this Palestinian owns this piece of land.

460
00:24:29,160 --> 00:24:31,520
Speaker 2: You can go and terrorize them and threaten them until

461
00:24:31,560 --> 00:24:33,640
Speaker 2: they agree to sell it to you. You know, it's

462
00:24:33,680 --> 00:24:36,320
Speaker 2: not exactly free and fair sale. And then they frame

463
00:24:36,359 --> 00:24:39,040
Speaker 2: the whole thing as oh, it's voluntary migration. You know,

464
00:24:39,080 --> 00:24:41,240
Speaker 2: they just they're they're ready to move and explore a

465
00:24:41,240 --> 00:24:44,520
Speaker 2: new part of the country. You can see how the

466
00:24:44,560 --> 00:24:48,040
Speaker 2: settler attacks work hand in glove with the aims and

467
00:24:48,040 --> 00:24:50,840
Speaker 2: the goals of the government exactly.

468
00:24:50,920 --> 00:24:51,920
Speaker 6: I mean, if you live in a.

469
00:24:53,359 --> 00:24:55,920
Speaker 7: Like the clip you just showed was in mas Riata,

470
00:24:56,000 --> 00:24:57,560
Speaker 7: this is you know, a bed wind community in the

471
00:24:57,600 --> 00:25:00,159
Speaker 7: south Hebron Hills, if you live there, I mean that

472
00:25:01,560 --> 00:25:07,200
Speaker 7: whole area was designated a military training zone decades ago,

473
00:25:07,320 --> 00:25:10,080
Speaker 7: and that is you know what gives these really military

474
00:25:10,119 --> 00:25:12,400
Speaker 7: sort of a sensible authority to go in and demolish

475
00:25:12,440 --> 00:25:17,480
Speaker 7: buildings and prevent them from from building their own structures.

476
00:25:18,920 --> 00:25:21,880
Speaker 7: Now you have settlers coming in. They are building outposts

477
00:25:21,960 --> 00:25:24,720
Speaker 7: right next to these villages, terrorizing them on a regular basis.

478
00:25:25,000 --> 00:25:27,560
Speaker 7: Over sixty of these communities have just gotten up and

479
00:25:27,640 --> 00:25:31,440
Speaker 7: left on their own in the last just since October seventh.

480
00:25:31,720 --> 00:25:36,480
Speaker 7: Now you have another option, just take the money and leave.

481
00:25:36,720 --> 00:25:40,280
Speaker 7: And it's not you know, in my mind, like the

482
00:25:40,880 --> 00:25:43,560
Speaker 7: strategy is sort of converging with what's happening in Gaza,

483
00:25:44,040 --> 00:25:46,560
Speaker 7: where you know, sure they are still you know, of

484
00:25:46,600 --> 00:25:49,720
Speaker 7: course bombing and killing people on a daily basis, but

485
00:25:49,760 --> 00:25:54,080
Speaker 7: they are also you know, trying to describe what they're

486
00:25:54,119 --> 00:25:56,520
Speaker 7: doing as sort of a humanitarian situation where they want

487
00:25:56,560 --> 00:25:58,879
Speaker 7: to help the people of Gaza go and you know,

488
00:25:58,960 --> 00:26:01,520
Speaker 7: find a better place to find a better way to

489
00:26:01,600 --> 00:26:04,719
Speaker 7: live outside of Gaza, and then Israel will come in

490
00:26:04,760 --> 00:26:09,800
Speaker 7: and you know, build industrial cities and factories and you know,

491
00:26:09,840 --> 00:26:13,200
Speaker 7: perhaps settlements too. So it's you know, this is actually

492
00:26:13,720 --> 00:26:17,240
Speaker 7: this was in the playbook. This is in the smoke

493
00:26:17,359 --> 00:26:20,399
Speaker 7: rich Blueprint that he were in twenty seventeen, where he

494
00:26:20,480 --> 00:26:23,920
Speaker 7: doesn't say we're gonna genocide the Palestinians in the West Bank.

495
00:26:23,960 --> 00:26:26,400
Speaker 7: He doesn't even say we're gonna run them off the land.

496
00:26:26,480 --> 00:26:29,480
Speaker 7: He says, look, let's just be practical here. There's not

497
00:26:29,600 --> 00:26:31,280
Speaker 7: room for both of us here, there's not room for

498
00:26:31,320 --> 00:26:32,800
Speaker 7: two countries, for two states.

499
00:26:32,840 --> 00:26:34,320
Speaker 6: So let's give him some options.

500
00:26:34,600 --> 00:26:38,919
Speaker 7: Option one is they can live as colonial subjects under Israel.

501
00:26:40,520 --> 00:26:43,600
Speaker 7: Option two is they can leave and maybe we'll even

502
00:26:43,600 --> 00:26:46,080
Speaker 7: give them money to leave, and they probably will because

503
00:26:46,119 --> 00:26:47,919
Speaker 7: they want a better life somewhere. And option three, if

504
00:26:47,960 --> 00:26:49,960
Speaker 7: they don't do that, is we'll fight to the death.

505
00:26:50,000 --> 00:26:52,880
Speaker 7: Then you know, we'll probably kill them. And so all

506
00:26:52,920 --> 00:26:57,040
Speaker 7: of these different methods of getting the Palestinines off the land,

507
00:26:57,119 --> 00:27:01,600
Speaker 7: from the brute force to you knowifocating policies too now

508
00:27:01,640 --> 00:27:03,760
Speaker 7: just saying look it's really bad here, don't you want

509
00:27:03,760 --> 00:27:05,680
Speaker 7: to just have a better life somewhere, take this money

510
00:27:05,720 --> 00:27:08,400
Speaker 7: and go. I mean, all that is working to one end,

511
00:27:08,440 --> 00:27:10,560
Speaker 7: which is to get the Palestinians out of the West

512
00:27:10,600 --> 00:27:11,680
Speaker 7: Bank and Gaza.

513
00:27:14,960 --> 00:27:17,119
Speaker 3: Jasper, want to get your reaction to a couple of

514
00:27:17,160 --> 00:27:20,680
Speaker 3: recent clips of Senator Lindsay Graham, Republican of South Carolina.

515
00:27:21,240 --> 00:27:23,680
Speaker 3: Let's rule this first one where lind.

516
00:27:23,560 --> 00:27:26,680
Speaker 2: South Carolina slash televiv yes, slash slash as he goes

517
00:27:26,680 --> 00:27:29,080
Speaker 2: there every two weeks ever two weeks.

518
00:27:28,560 --> 00:27:31,000
Speaker 3: Not bad, probably more often those in South Carolina. All right,

519
00:27:31,280 --> 00:27:33,840
Speaker 3: here's Lindsay Graham talking about the future of wars.

520
00:27:34,560 --> 00:27:38,199
Speaker 8: The wars of the future are being planned here in Israel,

521
00:27:38,560 --> 00:27:40,800
Speaker 8: because if you're not one step ahead of the enemy,

522
00:27:41,080 --> 00:27:45,879
Speaker 8: you suffer. The most clever, creative military forces on the

523
00:27:45,920 --> 00:27:48,399
Speaker 8: planet are here in Israel because they have to be

524
00:27:48,480 --> 00:27:49,119
Speaker 8: to survived.

525
00:27:49,200 --> 00:27:49,920
Speaker 6: So what we're.

526
00:27:49,720 --> 00:27:52,840
Speaker 8: Looking at is that Israel is advancing down the road

527
00:27:52,840 --> 00:27:56,119
Speaker 8: of new weaponry far beyond us, and it would be

528
00:27:56,200 --> 00:28:00,359
Speaker 8: nice to have a process where we could be partners.

529
00:28:01,320 --> 00:28:03,160
Speaker 3: We have one more clip, Jasper. That's a great clip

530
00:28:03,200 --> 00:28:04,640
Speaker 3: to get your take on because you've done so much

531
00:28:04,640 --> 00:28:07,080
Speaker 3: work in the space. But let's roll E five first,

532
00:28:07,240 --> 00:28:08,640
Speaker 3: more of Senator Lindsay Graham.

533
00:28:09,280 --> 00:28:12,480
Speaker 8: Could our soldiers be hid in the region, Absolutely they could.

534
00:28:13,000 --> 00:28:15,919
Speaker 8: Can Iran respond if we have an all out attack,

535
00:28:16,040 --> 00:28:19,520
Speaker 8: absolutely they can. I think the risk associated to that

536
00:28:19,720 --> 00:28:22,560
Speaker 8: with that as far less and the risk associated with

537
00:28:22,680 --> 00:28:26,119
Speaker 8: blinking and pulling the plug and not helping the people

538
00:28:26,160 --> 00:28:26,960
Speaker 8: as you promised.

539
00:28:27,600 --> 00:28:30,440
Speaker 3: So the future of war in Israel, Jasper, you know

540
00:28:30,480 --> 00:28:33,200
Speaker 3: all about that? Tell us what Lindsay Graham would actually

541
00:28:33,240 --> 00:28:35,679
Speaker 3: probably agree with you that he's talking about.

542
00:28:36,680 --> 00:28:38,400
Speaker 7: Yeah, I saw that clip, and I mean it was

543
00:28:38,440 --> 00:28:40,760
Speaker 7: one of these moments of like, I don't know if

544
00:28:41,640 --> 00:28:44,200
Speaker 7: he could take it back, if he could, or if

545
00:28:44,240 --> 00:28:46,240
Speaker 7: he just you know, wants to be saying the quiet

546
00:28:46,280 --> 00:28:48,320
Speaker 7: part out loud. I mean, there's a number of things

547
00:28:48,320 --> 00:28:50,000
Speaker 7: he could be talking about. One of them is you know,

548
00:28:50,040 --> 00:28:52,880
Speaker 7: the fact that Israel is actually you know, testing out

549
00:28:52,880 --> 00:28:58,560
Speaker 7: new weaponry, in many cases American weapons that will then

550
00:28:58,720 --> 00:29:01,040
Speaker 7: you know, go straight to the America military after it's

551
00:29:01,040 --> 00:29:02,040
Speaker 7: been tested out there.

552
00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:02,760
Speaker 6: I think.

553
00:29:02,880 --> 00:29:06,640
Speaker 7: You know, of course, the US, many many Hawks in

554
00:29:06,680 --> 00:29:10,040
Speaker 7: the government, including our Secretary of State Marco Rubio, have

555
00:29:10,200 --> 00:29:11,280
Speaker 7: long wanted.

556
00:29:10,920 --> 00:29:11,880
Speaker 6: War with Iran.

557
00:29:12,760 --> 00:29:16,440
Speaker 7: You know, Israel is of course wants more than anything

558
00:29:16,480 --> 00:29:18,560
Speaker 7: or n Yahoo certainly wants more than anything to take

559
00:29:18,560 --> 00:29:21,000
Speaker 7: out the regime in Iran, and so they're a good

560
00:29:21,000 --> 00:29:25,520
Speaker 7: sort of proxy to get that war going. But also,

561
00:29:25,840 --> 00:29:27,720
Speaker 7: I mean, I think it should be said that, like,

562
00:29:28,680 --> 00:29:31,960
Speaker 7: you know, many people have noted that the genocide in

563
00:29:32,040 --> 00:29:36,080
Speaker 7: Gaza has sort of you know, stripped away the last

564
00:29:36,120 --> 00:29:40,240
Speaker 7: pretenses of a rules based order. It's shown that you know,

565
00:29:40,880 --> 00:29:44,400
Speaker 7: the stronger country can do whatever it wants, not just

566
00:29:44,480 --> 00:29:48,560
Speaker 7: to to Gaza, where you know they use October seventh

567
00:29:48,600 --> 00:29:51,800
Speaker 7: as a pretense, but in Lebanon and in Syria and

568
00:29:51,920 --> 00:29:55,160
Speaker 7: in the West Bank and anywhere they want, the stronger

569
00:29:55,200 --> 00:29:58,320
Speaker 7: country can just you know go in and dominate with force,

570
00:29:58,440 --> 00:30:01,040
Speaker 7: as the US has done in vent Isuela and you

571
00:30:01,080 --> 00:30:04,200
Speaker 7: know potentially in Cuba. And so I think Lindsay Graham

572
00:30:04,280 --> 00:30:08,080
Speaker 7: is you know, he's sort of projecting his his fantasies

573
00:30:08,080 --> 00:30:12,200
Speaker 7: of empire onto this situation, and he's just he's saying that, yes,

574
00:30:12,240 --> 00:30:14,719
Speaker 7: they're going to help us out with the war on Iran,

575
00:30:14,840 --> 00:30:16,760
Speaker 7: with you know, everything we want to do. They're helping

576
00:30:16,800 --> 00:30:19,560
Speaker 7: test our weapons. But also, like israel Es setting the

577
00:30:19,600 --> 00:30:21,840
Speaker 7: new standard, this is how warfare is going to work.

578
00:30:21,880 --> 00:30:24,960
Speaker 7: This is how empires are going to work going forward and.

579
00:30:25,520 --> 00:30:28,920
Speaker 2: Just watch yeah, well and speak a little bit to

580
00:30:29,320 --> 00:30:33,400
Speaker 2: the Trump administration context here as well. I saw Trump

581
00:30:33,440 --> 00:30:35,880
Speaker 2: made some throwaway comment I believe it was last week

582
00:30:35,920 --> 00:30:37,560
Speaker 2: about it, Oh, we don't want to see them taking

583
00:30:37,600 --> 00:30:39,720
Speaker 2: over the West Bank. But we also know that Court's

584
00:30:39,760 --> 00:30:43,160
Speaker 2: one of his top contributors. Miriam Addilson reportedly gave him

585
00:30:43,240 --> 00:30:46,000
Speaker 2: some one hundred million dollars plus in exchange for Hey,

586
00:30:46,000 --> 00:30:48,240
Speaker 2: you're going to You're gonna let them annex the West Bank.

587
00:30:48,240 --> 00:30:50,160
Speaker 2: And it reminded me also very much of the many

588
00:30:50,200 --> 00:30:52,479
Speaker 2: reports of how upset Biden was about not now who

589
00:30:52,600 --> 00:30:55,120
Speaker 2: doing blah blah blah, But it never amounts to any

590
00:30:55,160 --> 00:30:57,360
Speaker 2: sort of action. You know, do you think there's any

591
00:30:57,360 --> 00:31:02,720
Speaker 2: possibility that he would see this brazen land grab as

592
00:31:02,760 --> 00:31:04,960
Speaker 2: a threat to some of the things he wants. I mean,

593
00:31:05,000 --> 00:31:07,760
Speaker 2: mostly he just wants bragging rights about his quote unquote

594
00:31:07,760 --> 00:31:11,520
Speaker 2: peace deal and his you know, his peace board, et cetera.

595
00:31:11,920 --> 00:31:13,560
Speaker 2: How do you see those pieces fitting in?

596
00:31:14,720 --> 00:31:17,840
Speaker 7: Well, the annexation of the West Bank is even before Trump,

597
00:31:17,920 --> 00:31:20,440
Speaker 7: but you know it's been done in a way that

598
00:31:20,760 --> 00:31:25,960
Speaker 7: is deliberately meant to provide plausible deniability to Israel. So

599
00:31:26,000 --> 00:31:28,040
Speaker 7: they haven't just come out and said, we've annexed the

600
00:31:28,040 --> 00:31:31,240
Speaker 7: West Bank or we have declared sovereignty over the West Bank.

601
00:31:31,280 --> 00:31:33,480
Speaker 7: They are, you know, putting in place all these policies that,

602
00:31:33,520 --> 00:31:36,840
Speaker 7: like I said, are stripping control away from the military

603
00:31:36,840 --> 00:31:41,320
Speaker 7: occupation and from the Palestinian authority and giving it to Israel,

604
00:31:42,080 --> 00:31:44,960
Speaker 7: to the basically to the settlers, one step at a time,

605
00:31:45,000 --> 00:31:49,520
Speaker 7: which amounts to a de facto annexation. But I think that,

606
00:31:50,120 --> 00:31:54,840
Speaker 7: you know, beyond that, like Trump obviously acts in his

607
00:31:54,880 --> 00:31:57,360
Speaker 7: own self interest. He I don't even think he knows

608
00:31:57,400 --> 00:31:58,840
Speaker 7: where the West Bank is. I don't think he could

609
00:31:58,840 --> 00:32:01,640
Speaker 7: point to it on a map. There are two things

610
00:32:01,640 --> 00:32:05,760
Speaker 7: that could potentially cause him to speak up, which he

611
00:32:05,920 --> 00:32:08,280
Speaker 7: actually has done in the past. The first one would

612
00:32:08,320 --> 00:32:12,440
Speaker 7: be if the Abrahama Cords or you know, the normalization

613
00:32:12,560 --> 00:32:15,920
Speaker 7: deal is threatened. So in twenty twenty, the UAE actually

614
00:32:15,960 --> 00:32:20,040
Speaker 7: threatened to pull out of normalization if Israel if Nenya,

615
00:32:20,080 --> 00:32:23,160
Speaker 7: who pushed forward an annexation effort that he was making,

616
00:32:23,440 --> 00:32:26,640
Speaker 7: Trump immediately came out and said told Nenyah he couldn't

617
00:32:26,680 --> 00:32:28,840
Speaker 7: do it. And obviously it's because it was going to

618
00:32:30,240 --> 00:32:32,840
Speaker 7: cause him to lose his you know, big foreign policy achievement,

619
00:32:32,840 --> 00:32:36,080
Speaker 7: the Abrahama Cords from the first term. So far, there's

620
00:32:36,080 --> 00:32:39,920
Speaker 7: no indication that the UAE is threatening that this time around.

621
00:32:40,760 --> 00:32:42,760
Speaker 6: Qatar has has.

622
00:32:42,840 --> 00:32:44,600
Speaker 7: You know that a lot of these Arab states who

623
00:32:44,640 --> 00:32:48,400
Speaker 7: are either already normalizing with Israel or who are considering it,

624
00:32:48,640 --> 00:32:53,160
Speaker 7: have issued these completely toothless threats. So I don't see

625
00:32:53,200 --> 00:32:55,600
Speaker 7: that as a factor right now. The other thing, which

626
00:32:56,440 --> 00:32:59,360
Speaker 7: I have even less hope for is that somebody points

627
00:32:59,360 --> 00:33:02,880
Speaker 7: out to Trump that, you know, I think point nineteen

628
00:33:03,160 --> 00:33:05,920
Speaker 7: in your twenty point piece plan says that the Palestinians

629
00:33:06,720 --> 00:33:10,560
Speaker 7: have to have a path to statehood, to self determination,

630
00:33:11,120 --> 00:33:14,040
Speaker 7: and what they're doing in the West Bank, which would

631
00:33:14,040 --> 00:33:17,040
Speaker 7: be in theory, in a parallel universe where the settlement

632
00:33:17,040 --> 00:33:20,480
Speaker 7: movement was forced out, the West Bank would be the

633
00:33:20,520 --> 00:33:23,440
Speaker 7: bulk of the Palestinian state in terms of planned and population.

634
00:33:24,000 --> 00:33:26,640
Speaker 7: And if somebody points out to Trump that, you know,

635
00:33:27,200 --> 00:33:29,680
Speaker 7: all these new policies in the West Bank are making

636
00:33:29,720 --> 00:33:34,840
Speaker 7: it completely physically impossible, legally impossible for the Palestinians to

637
00:33:34,880 --> 00:33:37,480
Speaker 7: have a state, there goes your whole peace plan, and again,

638
00:33:37,520 --> 00:33:40,200
Speaker 7: you know, it's a legacy play for him. So I

639
00:33:40,240 --> 00:33:42,960
Speaker 7: think that in theory, he could say, oh, wait a minute,

640
00:33:42,960 --> 00:33:46,000
Speaker 7: these guys are screwing up my plan, but it doesn't

641
00:33:46,000 --> 00:33:46,960
Speaker 7: look like that's happening.

642
00:33:47,280 --> 00:33:50,560
Speaker 3: Well, final point on that for me, Jasper. Jeremy Skahole

643
00:33:50,600 --> 00:33:53,520
Speaker 3: at dropsite is now reporting a senior HAMAS official has

644
00:33:53,560 --> 00:33:56,600
Speaker 3: told him that Hamas will not accede to the sweeping demands.

645
00:33:56,600 --> 00:33:59,240
Speaker 3: Says Jeremy writes from Trump and Yahoo that the Palestinian

646
00:33:59,320 --> 00:34:02,000
Speaker 3: resistance does arm, nor will it submit to a total

647
00:34:02,000 --> 00:34:06,120
Speaker 3: demilitization of the Gaza strip end quote. What's your reaction

648
00:34:06,360 --> 00:34:08,520
Speaker 3: here in that, Jasper, Actually, in light of everything you just.

649
00:34:08,440 --> 00:34:14,160
Speaker 7: Said, Yeah, I mean listen, like I'm not going to

650
00:34:14,239 --> 00:34:17,880
Speaker 7: get into the details of the twenty point plan, and

651
00:34:17,920 --> 00:34:20,160
Speaker 7: like what isn't is impossible. But I'll just say that, like,

652
00:34:20,960 --> 00:34:23,760
Speaker 7: if I was a Palestine and living in Gaza right now,

653
00:34:24,480 --> 00:34:29,080
Speaker 7: I would be very concerned about the idea of completely disarming,

654
00:34:29,840 --> 00:34:32,880
Speaker 7: knowing what's been done to us, not just over the

655
00:34:32,880 --> 00:34:35,720
Speaker 7: course of two years, but also in theoretically in times

656
00:34:35,719 --> 00:34:39,080
Speaker 7: of peace. You know, during the March of Great Return,

657
00:34:39,440 --> 00:34:43,200
Speaker 7: hundreds of people were killed, thousands were maimed by Israeli

658
00:34:43,200 --> 00:34:46,840
Speaker 7: snipers during a peaceful protest, and so you know, the

659
00:34:47,040 --> 00:34:49,160
Speaker 7: position that they want the Palestinians to be put in,

660
00:34:49,520 --> 00:34:52,600
Speaker 7: you know, just at one hundred percent complete mercy of

661
00:34:52,960 --> 00:34:55,520
Speaker 7: this state and this military that has been massacring them

662
00:34:55,560 --> 00:35:00,319
Speaker 7: for years and for decades. Really, yeah, I I don't

663
00:35:00,840 --> 00:35:04,680
Speaker 7: know why they would trust that that would then finally

664
00:35:04,760 --> 00:35:07,000
Speaker 7: lead to them being able to live in peace. And

665
00:35:07,040 --> 00:35:10,799
Speaker 7: so look, I think that the peace plan was, you know,

666
00:35:11,280 --> 00:35:14,040
Speaker 7: it was designed to fail. Maybe not by Trump himself,

667
00:35:14,080 --> 00:35:16,520
Speaker 7: but I think everybody in Israel knew.

668
00:35:16,320 --> 00:35:16,879
Speaker 6: It was going to fail.

669
00:35:16,880 --> 00:35:18,560
Speaker 7: I mean, n Yahoo was saying one thing to the

670
00:35:18,640 --> 00:35:22,040
Speaker 7: US press and another thing to the Israeli press about yeah,

671
00:35:22,040 --> 00:35:24,600
Speaker 7: don't worry, we're not going to actually you know, we're

672
00:35:24,600 --> 00:35:27,200
Speaker 7: not going to actually stop trying to destroy Hamas, We're

673
00:35:27,200 --> 00:35:28,800
Speaker 7: not going to actually let them have a state.

674
00:35:29,320 --> 00:35:30,799
Speaker 6: And so to me, this is just.

675
00:35:30,840 --> 00:35:33,719
Speaker 7: Like the completely predictable outcome of what was always a

676
00:35:33,760 --> 00:35:38,200
Speaker 7: sham peace process. And I don't know what's going to happen,

677
00:35:38,360 --> 00:35:42,480
Speaker 7: but with guys like Kushner and you know, Wikoff and

678
00:35:42,600 --> 00:35:46,239
Speaker 7: Trump and Tony Blair and then Yahoo in control, I mean,

679
00:35:46,520 --> 00:35:47,600
Speaker 7: it looks pretty bleak.

680
00:35:47,840 --> 00:35:50,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean that really is kind of my last

681
00:35:50,440 --> 00:35:53,560
Speaker 2: question is you said earlier that the plan for Gosen,

682
00:35:53,600 --> 00:35:56,600
Speaker 2: the plan for the West Bank have effectively converged, with

683
00:35:56,680 --> 00:36:00,319
Speaker 2: that plan being make people so miserable that they leave,

684
00:36:00,680 --> 00:36:03,120
Speaker 2: or that we just you don't completely subjugate them, or

685
00:36:03,160 --> 00:36:06,040
Speaker 2: if they don't step on a line, we kill them.

686
00:36:06,200 --> 00:36:08,120
Speaker 2: I mean, do you think that plan is going to work.

687
00:36:10,520 --> 00:36:13,560
Speaker 7: Well, it's working in the sense that they are getting

688
00:36:13,600 --> 00:36:15,520
Speaker 7: more and more land literally every day.

689
00:36:15,520 --> 00:36:17,560
Speaker 6: I mean yesterday or two days ago.

690
00:36:17,600 --> 00:36:22,719
Speaker 7: On Sunday, the Israeli government approved land registration drive in

691
00:36:22,760 --> 00:36:24,560
Speaker 7: the West Bank and Area See, which means that they

692
00:36:24,600 --> 00:36:27,879
Speaker 7: will now go through all of the land in Area Sea,

693
00:36:27,920 --> 00:36:31,120
Speaker 7: which is like sixty percent of the West Bank, forced

694
00:36:31,160 --> 00:36:33,320
Speaker 7: Palestinians to prove that they own the land, which is

695
00:36:33,360 --> 00:36:35,239
Speaker 7: impossible for many of them to do because they've not

696
00:36:35,280 --> 00:36:39,239
Speaker 7: been able to get titles since nineteen sixty seven. And

697
00:36:39,280 --> 00:36:42,160
Speaker 7: anything that they can't prove becomes theirs. And so you know,

698
00:36:42,200 --> 00:36:45,880
Speaker 7: that is just one of any number of policies that

699
00:36:45,920 --> 00:36:48,319
Speaker 7: will never get any coverage in the Western press. That

700
00:36:48,480 --> 00:36:51,520
Speaker 7: is just you know, tightening Israel's grip on the West Bank.

701
00:36:51,800 --> 00:36:55,959
Speaker 7: It will drive Palestinians off the land. So in one sense, yes,

702
00:36:56,000 --> 00:36:58,640
Speaker 7: it's going to work. In another sense, I mean, I

703
00:36:58,719 --> 00:37:01,160
Speaker 7: know lots of palace any people. I've spent a lot

704
00:37:01,200 --> 00:37:04,600
Speaker 7: of time in the West Bank, and a lot of

705
00:37:04,640 --> 00:37:07,520
Speaker 7: them are are just not going to leave. They're just

706
00:37:07,560 --> 00:37:10,360
Speaker 7: not going to leave. And I think the same is

707
00:37:10,360 --> 00:37:11,920
Speaker 7: probably true of a lot of people in Conset. To

708
00:37:11,960 --> 00:37:13,640
Speaker 7: be clear, I think a lot of people would leave,

709
00:37:13,760 --> 00:37:15,880
Speaker 7: And I mean, I'm certainly not in a position to

710
00:37:15,960 --> 00:37:19,879
Speaker 7: judge somebody for wanting to have a more peaceful life

711
00:37:19,920 --> 00:37:21,920
Speaker 7: for them and their family, but a lot of people

712
00:37:21,960 --> 00:37:25,240
Speaker 7: just will not. And so I don't see I certainly

713
00:37:25,239 --> 00:37:27,480
Speaker 7: don't see a sort of neat resolution that you know,

714
00:37:27,680 --> 00:37:32,600
Speaker 7: Israel just gains control of everything anytime soon. I think

715
00:37:32,640 --> 00:37:37,000
Speaker 7: it's going to be bloody and messy. And you know,

716
00:37:37,120 --> 00:37:41,080
Speaker 7: the only thing that could really stop Israel is a

717
00:37:41,120 --> 00:37:42,880
Speaker 7: weapons ban from the US, in my opinion.

718
00:37:43,120 --> 00:37:46,279
Speaker 2: Yeah, Jasper, thank you so much for your reporting and

719
00:37:46,320 --> 00:37:47,880
Speaker 2: for spending some time with us this morning.

720
00:37:47,880 --> 00:37:49,760
Speaker 5: We're very grateful, my pleasure.

721
00:37:49,840 --> 00:37:50,360
Speaker 6: Thanks both.

722
00:37:53,719 --> 00:37:56,280
Speaker 3: We're happy to be joined right now by Will Creeley,

723
00:37:56,320 --> 00:37:58,760
Speaker 3: who's the legal director over at the Foundation for Individual

724
00:37:58,840 --> 00:38:00,640
Speaker 3: Individual Rights and Expression.

725
00:38:00,680 --> 00:38:01,759
Speaker 4: Will thanks for joining us.

726
00:38:02,080 --> 00:38:04,040
Speaker 9: It's a pleasure. Thanks for having me of course.

727
00:38:03,840 --> 00:38:07,480
Speaker 3: There's a lot of news on the free expression front

728
00:38:07,520 --> 00:38:10,520
Speaker 3: to get to. Actually starting with something that broke overnight,

729
00:38:10,560 --> 00:38:12,840
Speaker 3: we can put the deadline tear sheet up on the screen.

730
00:38:12,920 --> 00:38:14,480
Speaker 4: This is F three.

731
00:38:15,080 --> 00:38:20,919
Speaker 3: Stephen Colbert is saying that CBS told him he could

732
00:38:20,920 --> 00:38:25,160
Speaker 3: not interview an interview he had already recorded with Democratic

733
00:38:25,320 --> 00:38:31,160
Speaker 3: Senate primary candidate James Tallerico of Texas on the Late Show. Now,

734
00:38:31,160 --> 00:38:34,920
Speaker 3: Tallerico posted the clip anyway, but people in the FCC

735
00:38:35,040 --> 00:38:38,800
Speaker 3: camp are saying, actually it was because CBS would need

736
00:38:38,800 --> 00:38:42,279
Speaker 3: to or CBS should feel in some sense responsible to

737
00:38:42,440 --> 00:38:48,000
Speaker 3: then quote unquote platform Jasmine Crockett for the equal time rule.

738
00:38:48,200 --> 00:38:50,520
Speaker 3: So this is starting to really get traction. As we're

739
00:38:50,600 --> 00:38:54,160
Speaker 3: talking right now, Will could you give us your legal perspective,

740
00:38:54,320 --> 00:38:57,480
Speaker 3: having followed a lot of these cases, and particularly the

741
00:38:57,560 --> 00:39:00,440
Speaker 3: FCC and Trump two point zero, what's going on here?

742
00:39:00,719 --> 00:39:02,279
Speaker 9: Yeah, there's a lot to get to.

743
00:39:02,480 --> 00:39:04,319
Speaker 10: First of all, I think it's of a piece with

744
00:39:04,400 --> 00:39:07,200
Speaker 10: what we've seen from the FCC over the past year,

745
00:39:07,719 --> 00:39:12,480
Speaker 10: very aggressive, very expansive understanding of their legal authority to

746
00:39:13,040 --> 00:39:18,520
Speaker 10: frankly at bully broadcasters into taking political lines that the

747
00:39:18,560 --> 00:39:21,359
Speaker 10: FCC would like them to take. I think that there's

748
00:39:21,360 --> 00:39:27,280
Speaker 10: an equal time rule that requires broadcasters generally to provide

749
00:39:27,280 --> 00:39:31,000
Speaker 10: equal time on what are called bona fide news broadcast

750
00:39:31,120 --> 00:39:35,680
Speaker 10: news programs to candidates running for the same office. For

751
00:39:35,719 --> 00:39:38,080
Speaker 10: a long time, the FCC has understood this to mean

752
00:39:38,239 --> 00:39:42,600
Speaker 10: really news broadcasts, not things like Saturday Night Live or

753
00:39:43,440 --> 00:39:46,360
Speaker 10: other kind of comedy talk shows. But recently, over the

754
00:39:46,400 --> 00:39:48,400
Speaker 10: past year and a half, we've seen a push to

755
00:39:48,560 --> 00:39:51,879
Speaker 10: expand the equal time rule to things like Saturday Live.

756
00:39:52,120 --> 00:39:54,560
Speaker 9: We had Kamala Harris when she was running up here on.

757
00:39:54,480 --> 00:39:59,279
Speaker 10: Saturday Live, and NBC then offered Donald Trump time on

758
00:39:59,320 --> 00:40:03,280
Speaker 10: a NASCAR broadcast. A couple points here, though the candidate

759
00:40:03,320 --> 00:40:05,680
Speaker 10: has to request that equal time. Well, I'm not clear

760
00:40:05,719 --> 00:40:09,000
Speaker 10: that that's happened here and between what happened last week

761
00:40:09,120 --> 00:40:14,600
Speaker 10: with the View and FCC Commissioner Brendan Carr pushing for

762
00:40:14,760 --> 00:40:17,120
Speaker 10: the View to provide equal time seems like this is

763
00:40:17,160 --> 00:40:19,400
Speaker 10: of a piece with that. Again, it's just part of

764
00:40:19,440 --> 00:40:24,000
Speaker 10: a very aggressive, very expansive understanding of the FCC's authority,

765
00:40:24,280 --> 00:40:25,719
Speaker 10: and I think it should make all of us a

766
00:40:25,719 --> 00:40:29,000
Speaker 10: little bit nervous. The FCC does not have the power

767
00:40:29,080 --> 00:40:31,239
Speaker 10: to be the nation's editor in chief, or the nation

768
00:40:31,440 --> 00:40:32,160
Speaker 10: censor in chief.

769
00:40:32,200 --> 00:40:34,239
Speaker 9: But that's what they're increasingly acting like.

770
00:40:34,520 --> 00:40:36,520
Speaker 2: I think the piece about the View is really important

771
00:40:36,520 --> 00:40:38,640
Speaker 2: for people to understand, and for those who don't know.

772
00:40:38,640 --> 00:40:42,040
Speaker 2: The FCC launcher probe last week into ABC's The View

773
00:40:42,160 --> 00:40:45,920
Speaker 2: after an interview with James Tallerrego and so you know,

774
00:40:46,000 --> 00:40:49,400
Speaker 2: part of the reason why they launched these probes or

775
00:40:49,400 --> 00:40:53,320
Speaker 2: threaten these lawsuits is not just about that one media

776
00:40:53,320 --> 00:40:56,600
Speaker 2: outlet or media property. It's so that other places like

777
00:40:56,840 --> 00:41:00,640
Speaker 2: CBS and like Stephen Colbert and the executives there say, oh,

778
00:41:00,680 --> 00:41:03,799
Speaker 2: maybe this is too hot to touch. We are going

779
00:41:03,840 --> 00:41:07,000
Speaker 2: to self censor without even the FCC potentially even getting

780
00:41:07,040 --> 00:41:09,440
Speaker 2: involved here because we see what happened over there on

781
00:41:09,480 --> 00:41:09,839
Speaker 2: the View.

782
00:41:10,560 --> 00:41:11,640
Speaker 9: That's exactly right.

783
00:41:11,680 --> 00:41:14,720
Speaker 10: It's designed to send a message to if you will

784
00:41:15,040 --> 00:41:18,040
Speaker 10: chill expression on our airwaves. You know, I am old

785
00:41:18,160 --> 00:41:20,959
Speaker 10: enough to remember two years ago when Brendan Carr said

786
00:41:21,160 --> 00:41:25,120
Speaker 10: it's not the job of the FCC to be intruding

787
00:41:25,160 --> 00:41:29,440
Speaker 10: itself making political decisions for our nation's broadcasters. But that

788
00:41:29,520 --> 00:41:31,759
Speaker 10: Brendon Carr is long gone, and what we have now

789
00:41:31,840 --> 00:41:35,160
Speaker 10: is something else. We have a a FCC that's willing

790
00:41:35,160 --> 00:41:39,920
Speaker 10: to push its authority to make broadcasters think twice about

791
00:41:39,960 --> 00:41:41,719
Speaker 10: the airs that they view on their show. I just

792
00:41:41,719 --> 00:41:44,239
Speaker 10: want to note that all this is wildly unsuccessful. I

793
00:41:44,320 --> 00:41:50,000
Speaker 10: logged onto the Stephen Colbert YouTube channel just before hopping

794
00:41:50,040 --> 00:41:51,440
Speaker 10: on here, and it has something like six hundred and

795
00:41:51,440 --> 00:41:55,040
Speaker 10: fifty thousand views overnight. You know, they should ask barbar

796
00:41:55,080 --> 00:41:57,520
Speaker 10: Streisend how well it goes when you try and shut

797
00:41:57,560 --> 00:41:58,399
Speaker 10: people up. Yeah.

798
00:41:58,520 --> 00:41:59,399
Speaker 5: Well, that's a great point.

799
00:41:59,480 --> 00:42:01,879
Speaker 3: Last thought on this before we get to BONDI will

800
00:42:02,719 --> 00:42:05,239
Speaker 3: you i'ven't interviewed Brendan Carr before, and I think one

801
00:42:05,280 --> 00:42:07,720
Speaker 3: point he makes a persuasive case on is the underlying

802
00:42:07,800 --> 00:42:12,560
Speaker 3: law here that does actually say broadcasters who are acting

803
00:42:12,760 --> 00:42:15,360
Speaker 3: or broadcasters have a duty to act in the public interest.

804
00:42:15,520 --> 00:42:18,520
Speaker 3: And that's where all of the stems from. He says,

805
00:42:18,719 --> 00:42:21,040
Speaker 3: you know, and this is obviously I don't want to

806
00:42:21,040 --> 00:42:22,880
Speaker 3: say tongue in cheek, but because he would say it's

807
00:42:22,920 --> 00:42:26,759
Speaker 3: totally sincere, he says he has the duty responsibility.

808
00:42:26,040 --> 00:42:26,919
Speaker 4: To enforce that.

809
00:42:27,200 --> 00:42:29,400
Speaker 3: He's not making the rules, he's just enforcing them. But

810
00:42:29,840 --> 00:42:32,200
Speaker 3: he has, you know, so before it might be time

811
00:42:32,200 --> 00:42:35,719
Speaker 3: to think whether or not that's just completely outdated, is it?

812
00:42:36,680 --> 00:42:38,680
Speaker 3: Do you think, well, that's a fair case that even

813
00:42:38,760 --> 00:42:41,840
Speaker 3: having this rule on the books seems like it's already

814
00:42:41,880 --> 00:42:44,120
Speaker 3: putting the government in a precarious position.

815
00:42:44,680 --> 00:42:45,600
Speaker 9: Absolutely, I do.

816
00:42:46,239 --> 00:42:50,439
Speaker 10: And even if we take Chair McCart his word as

817
00:42:50,480 --> 00:42:54,000
Speaker 10: to just calling balls and strikes for his existing legal authority, again,

818
00:42:54,040 --> 00:42:55,640
Speaker 10: I want to make two points. First, all, that's different

819
00:42:55,680 --> 00:42:57,680
Speaker 10: than what he said as Commissioner when he said that,

820
00:42:57,800 --> 00:43:01,520
Speaker 10: you know, the FCC should has to per law abide

821
00:43:01,560 --> 00:43:05,840
Speaker 10: by its First Amendment responsibilities before any federal statutory authority.

822
00:43:06,080 --> 00:43:09,120
Speaker 10: And second, voll Fire just submitted a comment just last

823
00:43:09,200 --> 00:43:12,239
Speaker 10: year arguing that the FCC should really go back and

824
00:43:12,880 --> 00:43:16,960
Speaker 10: delete a number of its content based regulations. They're outdated,

825
00:43:17,520 --> 00:43:20,399
Speaker 10: they provide the opportunity for political mischief, like we've seen

826
00:43:20,440 --> 00:43:25,360
Speaker 10: in the past year with leveraging political messaging for merger approval,

827
00:43:25,880 --> 00:43:28,319
Speaker 10: and they really reflect in an era where.

828
00:43:28,200 --> 00:43:31,160
Speaker 9: We had scarcity. Right, we had only a couple broadcasters

829
00:43:31,160 --> 00:43:31,480
Speaker 9: in town.

830
00:43:31,560 --> 00:43:34,560
Speaker 10: You know, I'm old enough to remember seeing just what

831
00:43:34,600 --> 00:43:37,239
Speaker 10: I had on the three major networks in Fox and

832
00:43:37,400 --> 00:43:39,759
Speaker 10: those days are long gone. Aside reference, right, you can

833
00:43:39,760 --> 00:43:42,320
Speaker 10: go to YouTube and you know, see whatever political candidate

834
00:43:42,360 --> 00:43:44,520
Speaker 10: you want, as much as you want those rules no

835
00:43:44,560 --> 00:43:47,319
Speaker 10: longer make sense, and they provide the federal government the

836
00:43:47,320 --> 00:43:50,200
Speaker 10: cudgel to swing at folks they.

837
00:43:50,040 --> 00:43:54,120
Speaker 2: Don't like, right, because we don't see this uniformly enforced.

838
00:43:54,560 --> 00:43:58,160
Speaker 2: This happens in certain instances, you know, with candidates that

839
00:43:58,200 --> 00:44:01,240
Speaker 2: they don't want to get a higher per file file,

840
00:44:01,360 --> 00:44:03,880
Speaker 2: or with certain commentary that they then pull out in

841
00:44:03,920 --> 00:44:05,000
Speaker 2: the hammer that they can wield.

842
00:44:05,040 --> 00:44:05,239
Speaker 5: Here.

843
00:44:05,320 --> 00:44:07,480
Speaker 2: All right, let's talk about this lawsuit that you that

844
00:44:07,600 --> 00:44:11,279
Speaker 2: your organization, FIRE has filed. Let's put F one up

845
00:44:11,320 --> 00:44:14,239
Speaker 2: on the screen. I think this is really significant. Fire

846
00:44:14,320 --> 00:44:17,760
Speaker 2: sues Bondie and NOAM for censoring Facebook group and app

847
00:44:17,840 --> 00:44:21,880
Speaker 2: reporting ICE activity. So in this in this release, do

848
00:44:21,880 --> 00:44:23,920
Speaker 2: you say the Foundation for Individual Rights and Expression is

849
00:44:23,960 --> 00:44:27,200
Speaker 2: suing Attorney General Pambondi and Sectuary of Homeland Security christynome

850
00:44:27,239 --> 00:44:30,160
Speaker 2: On behalf of k Rozato and Mark Hodges, who respectively

851
00:44:30,200 --> 00:44:33,160
Speaker 2: created a Facebook group and an app that hosted video

852
00:44:33,160 --> 00:44:36,680
Speaker 2: footage of ICE operations to inform the public and hold

853
00:44:36,719 --> 00:44:40,560
Speaker 2: our government accountable. Talk to us about what happened here

854
00:44:40,640 --> 00:44:44,000
Speaker 2: and what you are alleging the government did to pressure

855
00:44:44,040 --> 00:44:46,400
Speaker 2: these tech companies to censor these accounts.

856
00:44:46,760 --> 00:44:51,240
Speaker 10: Sure thing, well, Risotto had a Facebook group that allowed

857
00:44:51,239 --> 00:44:55,560
Speaker 10: community members to report to each other on what was happening.

858
00:44:55,600 --> 00:44:59,960
Speaker 10: When ICE surged in Chicago, the idea was to let

859
00:45:00,080 --> 00:45:02,279
Speaker 10: neighbors talk to each other about what they were seeing, so,

860
00:45:02,600 --> 00:45:04,920
Speaker 10: you know, not just to quote unquote evade ICE, but

861
00:45:04,960 --> 00:45:06,880
Speaker 10: also just to give a heads up. You know, maybe

862
00:45:06,880 --> 00:45:09,840
Speaker 10: maybe your commute is going to be crazy, or maybe

863
00:45:09,880 --> 00:45:13,480
Speaker 10: you know you don't want your kids walking past masked

864
00:45:13,640 --> 00:45:15,719
Speaker 10: armed federal agents. You know, all kinds of reasons that

865
00:45:15,760 --> 00:45:19,240
Speaker 10: you might want to be aware of what ICE is doing.

866
00:45:19,280 --> 00:45:21,160
Speaker 10: And I should note right at the outset that is

867
00:45:21,280 --> 00:45:23,600
Speaker 10: fully protected by the First Amendment. You have the right

868
00:45:23,719 --> 00:45:26,359
Speaker 10: to comment on law enforcement movements. You've got the right

869
00:45:26,400 --> 00:45:29,920
Speaker 10: to record police, including ICE. Those are public servants. They

870
00:45:29,960 --> 00:45:32,080
Speaker 10: work for us. You have the First Amendment right to

871
00:45:32,120 --> 00:45:34,120
Speaker 10: criticize them. You have the first men right to protest,

872
00:45:34,200 --> 00:45:35,759
Speaker 10: you have the first men right to record. That's why,

873
00:45:35,800 --> 00:45:38,120
Speaker 10: to be very clear, there's a lot of debate on

874
00:45:38,160 --> 00:45:40,719
Speaker 10: Twitter about those points, a lot of Twitter lawyers telling

875
00:45:40,760 --> 00:45:42,680
Speaker 10: me that that's actually impeding law enforcement.

876
00:45:42,960 --> 00:45:43,480
Speaker 9: No, it's not.

877
00:45:43,600 --> 00:45:45,480
Speaker 3: Can you break that down actually, well, like, what is

878
00:45:45,520 --> 00:45:49,360
Speaker 3: the legal background of the definition of impede in that context?

879
00:45:49,760 --> 00:45:49,960
Speaker 9: Right?

880
00:45:50,400 --> 00:45:50,560
Speaker 6: Right?

881
00:45:50,600 --> 00:45:53,719
Speaker 10: If i'm impeding somebody, I'm going in and obstructing them.

882
00:45:53,800 --> 00:45:55,320
Speaker 9: Usually there's some kind of physical aspect.

883
00:45:55,400 --> 00:45:57,800
Speaker 10: If I'm recording them across the street, I'm not impeding

884
00:45:57,880 --> 00:46:01,839
Speaker 10: law enforcement operations. There's a Supreme Court case called Hill

885
00:46:01,960 --> 00:46:05,600
Speaker 10: vers City of Houston, where a man is watching a

886
00:46:05,640 --> 00:46:09,120
Speaker 10: Houston Police Department officer arresting another man and he says

887
00:46:09,160 --> 00:46:10,759
Speaker 10: something like, why don't you pick on someone on your

888
00:46:10,760 --> 00:46:14,239
Speaker 10: own size, and then he gets arrested for obstructing and

889
00:46:14,360 --> 00:46:16,640
Speaker 10: interfering with that arrest. The court says, no, this is

890
00:46:16,680 --> 00:46:19,520
Speaker 10: the difference between the United States and a police state.

891
00:46:19,800 --> 00:46:23,000
Speaker 10: We have the right to comment and criticize law enforcement

892
00:46:23,040 --> 00:46:28,040
Speaker 10: even while they're in the process of administering an arrest.

893
00:46:28,760 --> 00:46:31,040
Speaker 10: In In other words, kind of imped means what it says,

894
00:46:31,040 --> 00:46:32,840
Speaker 10: it means right, It's more than just words.

895
00:46:32,840 --> 00:46:33,960
Speaker 9: It's more than just recording.

896
00:46:34,640 --> 00:46:36,719
Speaker 10: If a law enforcement officer tells you to back up,

897
00:46:37,280 --> 00:46:38,279
Speaker 10: should probably back up.

898
00:46:38,320 --> 00:46:40,200
Speaker 9: But if you're recording, or certainly if you're.

899
00:46:40,080 --> 00:46:42,959
Speaker 10: On a Facebook group talking about what Ice is doing,

900
00:46:43,000 --> 00:46:45,839
Speaker 10: that's fully protected by the First Amendment. We're not talking

901
00:46:45,840 --> 00:46:48,480
Speaker 10: about some kind of secret police state yet. And that's

902
00:46:48,480 --> 00:46:49,440
Speaker 10: what we're fighting to.

903
00:46:49,320 --> 00:46:52,600
Speaker 2: Prevent There was also some reporting I wanted to get

904
00:46:52,600 --> 00:46:54,359
Speaker 2: your reaction to in the New York Times. We can

905
00:46:54,360 --> 00:46:57,680
Speaker 2: put F two up on the screen about how often

906
00:46:58,000 --> 00:47:01,400
Speaker 2: the government is pressuring social media companies not only to

907
00:47:01,400 --> 00:47:05,319
Speaker 2: take down content, but to reveal the identities of some

908
00:47:05,440 --> 00:47:09,720
Speaker 2: of the people are trying to remain anonymous for understandable reasons, frankly,

909
00:47:10,000 --> 00:47:15,879
Speaker 2: behind accounts that are posting anti ICE content. The part

910
00:47:15,880 --> 00:47:18,080
Speaker 2: of this reads the Department of Homeland Security is expanding

911
00:47:18,080 --> 00:47:21,720
Speaker 2: its efforts to identify Americans who oppose ICE by sending

912
00:47:21,760 --> 00:47:25,360
Speaker 2: tech companies legal requests for the names, email addresses, telephone numbers,

913
00:47:25,400 --> 00:47:29,400
Speaker 2: and other identifying data behind social media accounts that track

914
00:47:29,560 --> 00:47:32,719
Speaker 2: or criticize the agency. One of the things that we

915
00:47:33,000 --> 00:47:36,440
Speaker 2: have really appreciated here about fire is that you have

916
00:47:36,520 --> 00:47:40,920
Speaker 2: stood for free speech regardless of partisanship. So under the

917
00:47:40,960 --> 00:47:43,680
Speaker 2: Biden administration, where there are abuses, you all were right there,

918
00:47:43,719 --> 00:47:46,799
Speaker 2: and no under the Trump administration, with extraordinary abuses, you

919
00:47:46,880 --> 00:47:49,520
Speaker 2: continue to be on the side of the First Amendment.

920
00:47:49,800 --> 00:47:52,400
Speaker 2: Can you put this in context in terms of what

921
00:47:52,600 --> 00:47:56,719
Speaker 2: is happening here, how extensive it is, and what sort

922
00:47:56,719 --> 00:47:59,799
Speaker 2: of a threat to free speech? This ultimately represents.

923
00:48:00,600 --> 00:48:02,680
Speaker 10: Yeah, this feels like a full court press from the

924
00:48:02,680 --> 00:48:07,080
Speaker 10: administration to go after anybody who dares criticized report upon

925
00:48:07,640 --> 00:48:11,120
Speaker 10: track what's happening with ICE in the Department of Homeland Security.

926
00:48:11,239 --> 00:48:14,840
Speaker 10: So in our large lawsuit, we're pushing back against pressure

927
00:48:14,880 --> 00:48:18,600
Speaker 10: brought by the Attorney General and Secretary Gnome on Facebook

928
00:48:19,520 --> 00:48:23,080
Speaker 10: and Apple to remove the apps and the Facebook groups

929
00:48:23,080 --> 00:48:24,000
Speaker 10: that report on ICE.

930
00:48:24,440 --> 00:48:26,240
Speaker 9: That's unconstitutional, that's job owing.

931
00:48:26,360 --> 00:48:28,520
Speaker 10: As you say, we opposed it under the Biden administration,

932
00:48:28,560 --> 00:48:31,040
Speaker 10: and we're sure as hell oppose it here when it's

933
00:48:31,040 --> 00:48:33,160
Speaker 10: being used by the Trump administration as a kind of

934
00:48:33,200 --> 00:48:36,799
Speaker 10: indirect coercive censorship, trying to put the screws on a

935
00:48:36,840 --> 00:48:40,200
Speaker 10: private actor to remove speech that's protected but that the

936
00:48:40,200 --> 00:48:41,360
Speaker 10: administration doesn't like.

937
00:48:41,719 --> 00:48:43,120
Speaker 9: And here with this latest.

938
00:48:42,840 --> 00:48:44,839
Speaker 10: Reporting from the New York Times and also a couple

939
00:48:44,840 --> 00:48:48,600
Speaker 10: weeks before from the Washington Post, we're against things very aggressive,

940
00:48:48,760 --> 00:48:53,680
Speaker 10: very expansive understanding of what constitutes some kind of criminal

941
00:48:53,680 --> 00:48:56,200
Speaker 10: activity or some kind of suspicious activity.

942
00:48:55,760 --> 00:48:57,760
Speaker 9: That the federal government can tract.

943
00:48:57,800 --> 00:49:02,359
Speaker 10: So they're issuing these administrative subpene is to social media

944
00:49:02,400 --> 00:49:04,839
Speaker 10: companies and asking them to provide all the details about

945
00:49:04,840 --> 00:49:07,640
Speaker 10: those users and really, what I think anybody can see

946
00:49:07,719 --> 00:49:10,400
Speaker 10: just from a common sense standpoint is the intention is

947
00:49:10,440 --> 00:49:12,920
Speaker 10: to chill speech. They want you to think twice before

948
00:49:12,920 --> 00:49:15,560
Speaker 10: you say, you know, to hell with ICE on social

949
00:49:15,600 --> 00:49:17,279
Speaker 10: media because you don't want to get that knock on

950
00:49:17,320 --> 00:49:19,480
Speaker 10: the door. That's not a free society. That's not the

951
00:49:19,560 --> 00:49:21,919
Speaker 10: United States of America that we love. And I don't

952
00:49:21,920 --> 00:49:24,719
Speaker 10: care what administration is doing that that should outrage everybody

953
00:49:25,080 --> 00:49:27,000
Speaker 10: in this country. We have a right to criticize police

954
00:49:27,000 --> 00:49:29,520
Speaker 10: without worrying that you're going to get some knock on

955
00:49:29,520 --> 00:49:32,080
Speaker 10: the door, as folks have been getting because your social

956
00:49:32,080 --> 00:49:34,560
Speaker 10: media company turned over all your information to the FEDS.

957
00:49:34,600 --> 00:49:36,200
Speaker 9: I mean, what the hell are we even talking about?

958
00:49:36,239 --> 00:49:36,920
Speaker 9: This is crazy.

959
00:49:38,000 --> 00:49:42,719
Speaker 3: Yeah, And the broader question of the anti ICE activism

960
00:49:43,080 --> 00:49:47,000
Speaker 3: the legal I'm genuinely curious, well for the legal perspective

961
00:49:47,160 --> 00:49:52,560
Speaker 3: on publicly available information. If you've people following ICE agents

962
00:49:52,560 --> 00:49:55,799
Speaker 3: in public and then communicating, coordinating in a signal group,

963
00:49:55,880 --> 00:49:58,880
Speaker 3: saying they're here, they're there, these license plates are in

964
00:49:58,880 --> 00:50:02,000
Speaker 3: the public domain using them for one reason or the other,

965
00:50:03,320 --> 00:50:08,560
Speaker 3: is there any legal standard that coordination constitutes it impeding

966
00:50:08,719 --> 00:50:13,680
Speaker 3: or obstructing, Because that's the argument that gets made, But

967
00:50:13,800 --> 00:50:16,200
Speaker 3: I just it seems like there aren't a lot of

968
00:50:16,840 --> 00:50:19,480
Speaker 3: there maybe isn't a lot of precedent on what that

969
00:50:19,560 --> 00:50:22,279
Speaker 3: actually is or what it could be. But I'm you

970
00:50:22,440 --> 00:50:25,400
Speaker 3: probably know the existing precedent will, So I appreciate.

971
00:50:25,040 --> 00:50:26,840
Speaker 9: The question because it's an important one, right. There is

972
00:50:27,760 --> 00:50:29,720
Speaker 9: speech integral to criminal conduct.

973
00:50:29,920 --> 00:50:32,880
Speaker 10: If you are, you know, coordinating a bank robbery and

974
00:50:32,920 --> 00:50:34,680
Speaker 10: then you go ahead and you know, you try and

975
00:50:34,719 --> 00:50:37,360
Speaker 10: execute the plan. At that point, the coordination, you know,

976
00:50:37,440 --> 00:50:41,320
Speaker 10: is part of the eventual criminality. But the really important

977
00:50:41,440 --> 00:50:43,719
Speaker 10: threshold is that there has to be that criminality. Just

978
00:50:43,760 --> 00:50:46,680
Speaker 10: talking with each other about where ice is or where

979
00:50:46,680 --> 00:50:48,920
Speaker 10: your next protest is going to be, that's all protected.

980
00:50:49,400 --> 00:50:52,040
Speaker 10: You have to have the step from just protected protests

981
00:50:52,040 --> 00:50:54,640
Speaker 10: and protected speech is some kind of criminal activity. And

982
00:50:54,680 --> 00:50:56,319
Speaker 10: that's a high bar, and it should be a high

983
00:50:56,360 --> 00:50:58,440
Speaker 10: bar in our free society. And that's not what I'm

984
00:50:58,440 --> 00:51:01,280
Speaker 10: not seeing here. The federal govern is pushing a very

985
00:51:01,920 --> 00:51:05,560
Speaker 10: broad interpretation of doxing. Doxing is not a legal term

986
00:51:05,560 --> 00:51:08,080
Speaker 10: of part. There's no crime against doxing. Just as you say,

987
00:51:08,239 --> 00:51:10,560
Speaker 10: if the information is in the public, if law enforcement

988
00:51:10,600 --> 00:51:12,719
Speaker 10: is walking around in public, you can report on them.

989
00:51:12,800 --> 00:51:15,120
Speaker 10: You can call up your friend and your text them

990
00:51:15,160 --> 00:51:18,320
Speaker 10: on signal whatever say hey they're over here. That's protected activity.

991
00:51:18,640 --> 00:51:21,760
Speaker 10: If you say, hey they're over here, let's jump them. Okay,

992
00:51:21,800 --> 00:51:24,439
Speaker 10: now we're talking about something else. But we haven't seen

993
00:51:24,440 --> 00:51:26,239
Speaker 10: any evidence of that. And you've got to be really

994
00:51:26,280 --> 00:51:28,600
Speaker 10: wary of the government blurring the lines between just talking

995
00:51:28,640 --> 00:51:31,880
Speaker 10: about somebody and actually doing something. There's a big difference

996
00:51:31,920 --> 00:51:34,120
Speaker 10: between speech and action, and we need to keep that.

997
00:51:34,040 --> 00:51:35,120
Speaker 9: SACA sainct Well.

998
00:51:35,160 --> 00:51:38,200
Speaker 2: I think the administration themselves are not very confident in

999
00:51:38,239 --> 00:51:41,520
Speaker 2: their legal standing here because according to this New York

1000
00:51:41,520 --> 00:51:44,480
Speaker 2: Times piece, they say in September they sent Meta these

1001
00:51:44,520 --> 00:51:47,760
Speaker 2: administrative subpoenas, which are just basically like pieces of paper

1002
00:51:47,800 --> 00:51:49,600
Speaker 2: that they're like, yeah, I go, we think we should

1003
00:51:49,600 --> 00:51:51,840
Speaker 2: be able to do this to identify the people behind

1004
00:51:51,880 --> 00:51:55,400
Speaker 2: Instagram accounts that posted about ice raids in California supporting

1005
00:51:55,480 --> 00:51:56,080
Speaker 2: the ACLU.

1006
00:51:56,160 --> 00:51:57,800
Speaker 5: The subpoenas were challenged in court.

1007
00:51:58,239 --> 00:52:03,160
Speaker 2: DHS withdrew the quests for information before a judge could rule.

1008
00:52:03,360 --> 00:52:05,759
Speaker 2: And I think there's another instance where they document the

1009
00:52:05,800 --> 00:52:08,920
Speaker 2: same tactic where when there's pushback and they say you

1010
00:52:08,960 --> 00:52:10,520
Speaker 2: can't do this, We're going to court they're like, oh,

1011
00:52:10,520 --> 00:52:13,600
Speaker 2: never mind, We're good because they don't feel that they

1012
00:52:13,640 --> 00:52:16,400
Speaker 2: are on solid legal ground here and they don't want

1013
00:52:16,560 --> 00:52:20,000
Speaker 2: an actual judge's ruling because now they can live in

1014
00:52:20,040 --> 00:52:22,239
Speaker 2: this sort of you know, a morphous like, well, we

1015
00:52:22,360 --> 00:52:24,640
Speaker 2: think we have this power, but if you get an

1016
00:52:24,680 --> 00:52:28,239
Speaker 2: actual legal decision, then you can no longer live in

1017
00:52:28,280 --> 00:52:30,640
Speaker 2: that state of ambiguity. And you know, you have to

1018
00:52:30,640 --> 00:52:32,520
Speaker 2: decide whether you're going to listen to the courts or

1019
00:52:32,520 --> 00:52:35,000
Speaker 2: whether you're going to flagrantly violate their orders, which of

1020
00:52:35,000 --> 00:52:36,680
Speaker 2: course they've done thousands of times as well.

1021
00:52:37,200 --> 00:52:40,200
Speaker 9: That's exactly right. You know, they seem like habitual line steppers.

1022
00:52:40,239 --> 00:52:41,719
Speaker 10: You know, you got to push back a little bit

1023
00:52:41,760 --> 00:52:43,880
Speaker 10: and then you know, maybe we'll get some space to operate.

1024
00:52:44,160 --> 00:52:45,160
Speaker 9: Let me plug right now.

1025
00:52:45,200 --> 00:52:48,040
Speaker 10: If any of your viewers are dealing with one of

1026
00:52:48,080 --> 00:52:50,040
Speaker 10: these administratives and poenas I think it might be, please

1027
00:52:50,080 --> 00:52:52,479
Speaker 10: get in touch with us at fire dot org. We'd

1028
00:52:52,480 --> 00:52:54,319
Speaker 10: love to hear from you, because, just as you say,

1029
00:52:54,400 --> 00:52:57,000
Speaker 10: the only way to really win here is to fight back.

1030
00:52:57,040 --> 00:52:58,719
Speaker 9: You have a first men right, but it doesn't mean

1031
00:52:58,800 --> 00:53:00,839
Speaker 9: much if you don't fight to extra. That's why we're

1032
00:53:00,840 --> 00:53:03,080
Speaker 9: so proud of our brave.

1033
00:53:02,840 --> 00:53:06,920
Speaker 10: Plaintiffs in our ice cases, in our lawsuit against Gnome

1034
00:53:07,000 --> 00:53:08,960
Speaker 10: and Bondy. It takes a lot of guts to stand

1035
00:53:09,000 --> 00:53:10,919
Speaker 10: up and fight, and that's what we're here to help

1036
00:53:10,920 --> 00:53:11,120
Speaker 10: you do.

1037
00:53:11,280 --> 00:53:13,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's why we're so grateful for the work

1038
00:53:13,680 --> 00:53:15,239
Speaker 2: that you guys do, because a lot of people out

1039
00:53:15,239 --> 00:53:17,719
Speaker 2: there on their own, as individuals, would have would be

1040
00:53:17,840 --> 00:53:19,400
Speaker 2: you know, it would be terrifying to go up against

1041
00:53:19,400 --> 00:53:20,920
Speaker 2: the federal groom. I'm sure it's still terrifying to go

1042
00:53:21,000 --> 00:53:23,040
Speaker 2: up against the federal government, but at least they have

1043
00:53:23,160 --> 00:53:26,000
Speaker 2: some great allies and people like yourself. Well, thank you

1044
00:53:26,000 --> 00:53:27,640
Speaker 2: so much for joining us today. We're really grateful for

1045
00:53:27,680 --> 00:53:27,960
Speaker 2: your time.

1046
00:53:28,040 --> 00:53:29,759
Speaker 9: Yes, did my pleasure. Thank you both.

1047
00:53:30,239 --> 00:53:32,319
Speaker 2: All Right, guys, that does it for us. Make sure

1048
00:53:32,360 --> 00:53:35,359
Speaker 2: to check out Sager's episode with Andrew Schultz. I believe

1049
00:53:35,400 --> 00:53:38,279
Speaker 2: that will come out tomorrow and Emily and Ryan will

1050
00:53:38,320 --> 00:53:40,279
Speaker 2: be in for the show previously known as Count of

1051
00:53:40,280 --> 00:53:40,800
Speaker 2: Points tomorrow.

1052
00:53:40,840 --> 00:53:41,799
Speaker 4: Oh is it not a bro show?

1053
00:53:42,640 --> 00:53:43,120
Speaker 5: Oh?

1054
00:53:43,239 --> 00:53:43,640
Speaker 10: I don't know.

1055
00:53:43,719 --> 00:53:45,520
Speaker 4: We should check and see if it's brough show. Okay,

1056
00:53:45,920 --> 00:53:47,120
Speaker 4: I'll check and see. It doesn't matter.

1057
00:53:47,120 --> 00:53:50,279
Speaker 2: A mystery show, yeah, mystery like those you know, little

1058
00:53:50,280 --> 00:53:52,279
Speaker 2: packages the kids get in the unboxed and you won't

1059
00:53:52,280 --> 00:53:54,560
Speaker 2: know really you unbox the episode.

1060
00:53:54,160 --> 00:53:57,120
Speaker 4: Remember the candy like the wonder Ball, It's like, what's

1061
00:53:57,160 --> 00:53:57,839
Speaker 4: in the wonder bawl?

1062
00:53:58,280 --> 00:54:00,359
Speaker 5: No, I know, but that's sounds fun.

1063
00:54:00,840 --> 00:54:01,560
Speaker 4: A millennial.

1064
00:54:01,680 --> 00:54:04,920
Speaker 2: My daughter's very My daughter's very into these like unboxing

1065
00:54:05,000 --> 00:54:08,080
Speaker 2: and the mystery, like you know, stuffy plushies that are

1066
00:54:08,080 --> 00:54:08,799
Speaker 2: inside the box.

1067
00:54:09,400 --> 00:54:10,080
Speaker 5: That's where my brain.

1068
00:54:10,120 --> 00:54:12,160
Speaker 4: Oh so this is the version of that. Yes, I

1069
00:54:12,160 --> 00:54:12,520
Speaker 4: love it.

1070
00:54:12,640 --> 00:54:15,279
Speaker 2: All right anyway, someone will see you here tomorrow and

1071
00:54:15,640 --> 00:54:16,279
Speaker 2: have a great day.

1072
00:54:16,320 --> 00:54:20,719
Speaker 4: See everyone.