Speaker 1: Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls podcast, a weekly
Speaker 1: conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small
Speaker 1: decisions we can make to become the best possible versions
Speaker 1: of ourselves. I'm your host, doctor Joy hard and Bradford,
Speaker 1: a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or
Speaker 1: to find a therapist in your area, visit our website
Speaker 1: at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. While I hope you
Speaker 1: love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is
Speaker 1: not meant to be a substitute for a relationship with
Speaker 1: a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so much
Speaker 1: for joining me for session four seventy four of the
Speaker 1: Therapy for Black Girls podcasts. In this conversation, I'm joined
Speaker 1: by neuropsychologists doctor Tanisha Hill Jareded for a deep dive
Speaker 1: into brain health and cognitive aging. We're exploring the neurological
Speaker 1: impact of our digital habits and discussing the everyday practices
Speaker 1: that support long term wellness. Press play and let's get
Speaker 1: into it right after our break. We talk a lot
Speaker 1: on this show about protecting our mental health, but today
Speaker 1: we're widening the lens to something bigger brain health. Doctor
Speaker 1: Tanisha Hill Jared is a neuropsychologist at UCSF's Memory and
Speaker 1: Aging Center, and her research looks at why black women
Speaker 1: carry the highest projected rates of Alzheimer's disease of any group.
Speaker 1: We get into the five habits, she recommends to every
Speaker 1: patient what our phones are doing to our sleep and
Speaker 1: our attention and the concept of weathering the biological told
Speaker 1: that living under structural racism and sexism takes on the
Speaker 1: body over time. She also walks us through her work
Speaker 1: on afrofuturism and hopefulness and why she believes imagining the
Speaker 1: future we want is its own brain health practice. Here's
Speaker 1: our conversation. Thank you so much for joining us today,
Speaker 1: doctor Tanisha.
Speaker 2: Thank you for having me. It's really nice to be here.
Speaker 1: Thank you, Thank you. So I would love for you
Speaker 1: to get us started by telling us a little bit
Speaker 1: about your background and what drew you to neuropsychology.
Speaker 2: Yes, so, hi everyone, I am doctor Tanisha Hill Jarrett.
Speaker 2: I am a neuropsychologist and assistant professor at the University
Speaker 2: of California at San Francisco's Memory and Aging Center. And
Speaker 2: really I got into neuropsychology in this interesting way. I
Speaker 2: actually didn't really know what neuropsychology was, but I knew
Speaker 2: I wanted to study psychology, and because I was always
Speaker 2: interested in human behavior, the why behind why people engage
Speaker 2: the way they do, why they act the way they do,
Speaker 2: and I also was interested in understanding the brain, which
Speaker 2: we understand drives why people engage in the behaviors that
Speaker 2: they do. And so as an undergraduate, I actually studied
Speaker 2: psychology and neuroscience. And then one of my mentors later
Speaker 2: in my undergraduate degree was like, well, have you heard
Speaker 2: of neuropsychology. It's really the combination of the two of them.
Speaker 2: And so that's when I started looking into it, and
Speaker 2: I felt like neuroscience was a little too bench science
Speaker 2: for me. I wanted something that I could work with
Speaker 2: people directly, and so for me, that's where I got
Speaker 2: into neuropsychology and I decided to pursue it in graduate school.
Speaker 1: And even further you specifically focus on cognitive aging. So
Speaker 1: tell us how about how you got into that as
Speaker 1: a specialty.
Speaker 2: Yes, that was also a little bit of a journey
Speaker 2: for me. So my graduate degree, when I was studying
Speaker 2: for graduate school, I actually focused on traumatic brain injury
Speaker 2: and focused on attention changes. After traumatic brain injury. So
Speaker 2: it was a neuropsychology program, but I used cognitive neuroscience methods,
Speaker 2: so things like EEG, MRI, etc. And at that time,
Speaker 2: there was emerging evidence that there was this relationship between
Speaker 2: traumatic brain injury and dementia and Alzheimer's disease, and so
Speaker 2: I started looking more into that and started becoming more
Speaker 2: interested in Alzheimer's disease aging cognitive aging, and what I
Speaker 2: saw were that there were disparities and so Black Americans
Speaker 2: were disproportionately impacted by Alzheimer's disease, and so I decided
Speaker 2: to focus my career on understanding the why behind that.
Speaker 1: So we're talking about brain health, what are we talking
Speaker 1: about specifically, and how is that different, if at all,
Speaker 1: from mental health?
Speaker 2: Right, So brain health is not necessarily just the absence
Speaker 2: of disease or the lack of underlying pathology, And so
Speaker 2: the World Health Organization actually thinks about it and across
Speaker 2: a couple of different domains. So they think about it
Speaker 2: as being the combination of a person's cognitive function, their
Speaker 2: socio emotional functioning, behavioral functioning, sensory functioning, as well as
Speaker 2: motor functioning. So it's quite broad and really when we
Speaker 2: think about mental health, mental health is kind of subsumed
Speaker 2: under brain health. So mental health is a component of
Speaker 2: a person's brain health, and so doing things that are
Speaker 2: good for your mental health also supports a person's brain health.
Speaker 1: So we are here in so many conversations recently around
Speaker 1: like productivity and optimization, Well, what actually matters most when
Speaker 1: we're talking about preserving our brain health. You already talked
Speaker 1: about like these several dimensions. I'm guessing it's maybe a
Speaker 1: little bit across these dimensions.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So when I see people clinically, I tell them
Speaker 2: to really focus on a couple of core things. One
Speaker 2: thing is cardiovascular exercise. So engaging in cardiovascular exercise supports
Speaker 2: our brain vascular system and ultimately is good for brain health.
Speaker 2: And typically what's recommended is engaging in about one hundred
Speaker 2: and fifty minutes of moderate cardiovascular exercise, which sounds like
Speaker 2: a lot one hundred and fifty minutes per week, but
Speaker 2: really if you break it down, it's really thirty minutes
Speaker 2: a day if you just do it during the weekdays, right,
Speaker 2: And what's moderate cardiovascular exercise it's more than just walking,
Speaker 2: and it's really something that it leaves you a little
Speaker 2: bit out of breath, but you're not like panting, so
Speaker 2: it's challenging for you to talk while you're engaging in
Speaker 2: that activity. So that's one thing. Engaging in cardiovascular exercise.
Speaker 2: The other thing is eating a heart healthy diet. So
Speaker 2: really what I share is what's good for your heart
Speaker 2: is also good for your brain. And there's been research
Speaker 2: showing that the Mediterranean diet in particular is really supportive
Speaker 2: of brain health. And what the research has shown is
Speaker 2: that people that live in the Mediterranean actually have lower
Speaker 2: incidents of Alzheimer's disease and other forms of dementia. And
Speaker 2: so the Mediterranean diet consists of things like fish, whole grains, berries,
Speaker 2: leafy foods, olive oil, et cetera. There's also what's called
Speaker 2: the DASH diet, and I cannot remember the exact acronym,
Speaker 2: but basically it's like an anti hypertensive diet, So the
Speaker 2: Mind diet the DASH diet. The other thing is managing stress,
Speaker 2: so reducing things that cause stressors in our lives, and
Speaker 2: that can be by just like reducing the external stressor,
Speaker 2: but also seeking social support, engaging in spirituality or coping
Speaker 2: practices that are meaningful to you, So that's the other thing.
Speaker 2: And then the last two things I typically recommend our
Speaker 2: social engagement, so getting out there talking to people, having
Speaker 2: meaningful social connections, and then sleep, so getting really good
Speaker 2: quality sleep. And the interesting thing is as we get older,
Speaker 2: the actual number of hours of sleep that we need
Speaker 2: reduces over time, but it's still recommended for like middle
Speaker 2: aged adults to get around seven solid hours of sleep.
Speaker 2: And the reason for that is while we're sleeping, our
Speaker 2: brain has what's called the glymphatic system, and it clears
Speaker 2: out these abnormalities, like these protein abnormalities and neurotoxins that
Speaker 2: develop in our brain. And so while we're sleeping, it's
Speaker 2: like washing out these bad things that can contribute to
Speaker 2: certain forms of dementia over time. So it's really important
Speaker 2: to get sleep as well. So those are like the
Speaker 2: core things that I recommend people do to preserve their
Speaker 2: brain health over time.
Speaker 1: Can you say more about the social engagement and how
Speaker 1: that actually impacts your brain health.
Speaker 2: So social engagement I think gives people a sense of purpose,
Speaker 2: It gives you a sense of connectedness to people. It
Speaker 2: also one of the things is talking to people, engaging
Speaker 2: in conversation. The one thing that we know about the
Speaker 2: brain is that challenging your brain to think in new
Speaker 2: ways is really important for neuroplasticity. So the ability for
Speaker 2: us to form those new brain connections, those neuronal connections,
Speaker 2: and with social engagement, it offers us the opportunity one
Speaker 2: to meet new people, to talk to people about things
Speaker 2: perhaps that we haven't thought about or engaged in these
Speaker 2: new sorts of ways. And it also gives people kind
Speaker 2: of a sense of purpose and meaning to their life
Speaker 2: as well. So I think all of these things combined
Speaker 2: helped to support brain health.
Speaker 1: I really appreciate you offering that list because one of
Speaker 1: the things that I have been very curious about, and
Speaker 1: as a podcast we've been very curious about, is all
Speaker 1: of the digital technology, like all of the things that
Speaker 1: really impact it sounds like a lot of the things
Speaker 1: that you were saying, we actually should be doing, right.
Speaker 1: So we know that if we're like upscrolling on our phone,
Speaker 1: we're not getting quality sleep or maybe the hours of sleep, right.
Speaker 1: But can you talk about like the impact of social
Speaker 1: media and kind of like being on our phones and
Speaker 1: so connected to devices, what impact does that have on
Speaker 1: our brain? Help?
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's interesting because it's a double edged swort. So
Speaker 2: like when I think about it, it offers an opportunity
Speaker 2: for social connection. And I'm thinking during the pandemic times,
Speaker 2: right when we were actually socially isolated, really the only
Speaker 2: way that we had to connect to one another when
Speaker 2: we were quarantining was through social media, so things like Instagram,
Speaker 2: TikTok et, cetera. And I also think it offers us
Speaker 2: the opportunity to cast a wider net to reach people
Speaker 2: perhaps that I never would have known existed, or to
Speaker 2: learn about different people and the ideas that they're sharing
Speaker 2: with the world. I know that people have reached out
Speaker 2: to me via social media because they've seen my content
Speaker 2: on social media. So I don't think it's all bad,
Speaker 2: but I also think that it can be, you know,
Speaker 2: if used in a way that's negligent, or if you're
Speaker 2: not mindful about your use. So when we think about sleep,
Speaker 2: the blue light, actually there's an association between blue light
Speaker 2: and quality of sleep, and so there's evidence that's coming
Speaker 2: out showing that it reduces our melatonin production, which disrupts
Speaker 2: our rem sleep cycle, so it actually interferes with our
Speaker 2: quality of sleep. And I know sometimes like when I
Speaker 2: wake up in the middle of the night. The first
Speaker 2: thing I do is go, I grab that phone and
Speaker 2: I start scrolling, And actually that's not what you should
Speaker 2: be doing. So that's one thing. The other thing, I
Speaker 2: think it's interesting to think about social media from like
Speaker 2: an addiction standpoint, and really what we're seeing is that
Speaker 2: this kind of short form content what's coming out of
Speaker 2: social media, So like these very brief videos like thirty
Speaker 2: seconds to a minute, right, that's pretty standard for TikTok
Speaker 2: or Instagram these other platforms, creates this burst of dopamine,
Speaker 2: So dopamines that feel good neurotransmitter that comes from the
Speaker 2: region of the brain called the ventral tegmental area and
Speaker 2: the ventral tegmental area, so it shoots this burst of
Speaker 2: dopamine and it actually goes to this region of the
Speaker 2: brain called the nucleus accompanies, which when we look at addiction,
Speaker 2: those two parts of the brain are actually implicated in
Speaker 2: addictive behaviors. And what we're seeing is that in addiction
Speaker 2: and things like gambling, drugs, and maybe even social media.
Speaker 2: I mean, people are still investigating this. There's ten times
Speaker 2: the burst of dopamine that you receive compared to just
Speaker 2: a typical reward that you would receive, So it's actually
Speaker 2: flooding this system. And the nucleus accumbence is really important
Speaker 2: for like motivation desire. So this pathway that links these
Speaker 2: two brain regions is this cyclical thing that puts you
Speaker 2: in this loop of addiction. And so it's possible that
Speaker 2: with like social media, we're constantly seeking that next video,
Speaker 2: We're constantly seeking something that satisfies us, that kind of
Speaker 2: fulfills that craving that we're looking for in this kind
Speaker 2: of short form content. And so I think that there's
Speaker 2: definitely an association and people are looking at this between
Speaker 2: social media engagement and addiction. The other thing I think
Speaker 2: that's really important to keep in mind is when I
Speaker 2: go back to sleep, it also impacts our memory consolidation, right,
Speaker 2: so like if we're not sleeping, well, we're actually not
Speaker 2: able to retain the things that we experience throughout the
Speaker 2: day or learned throughout the day. So that's another piece.
Speaker 2: And then when I think about attention, I can speak
Speaker 2: for myself getting these little bursts of things here and
Speaker 2: there right in the short form content. It requires you
Speaker 2: to divide your attention. I know, like I'm scrolling while
Speaker 2: I'm like looking at something on my laptop, or I'm
Speaker 2: like listening to somebody talk, but I'm also on my phone,
Speaker 2: And I think it causes our attention span to shorten
Speaker 2: over time, and our ability to like focus for like
Speaker 2: these deep intensive periods has reduced. We'll see because I
Speaker 2: think for Gen Alpha and the people that were basically
Speaker 2: like post millennials, they grew up with social media, right,
Speaker 2: and so we'll kind of be able to compare over
Speaker 2: time what the impact of this has on people's brains
Speaker 2: and they're developing brains.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, when I hear you talk
Speaker 1: about like the shots of dopamine, it does make me
Speaker 1: really curious around if you know of any like researcher,
Speaker 1: maybe you can speak to this. The dopamine that kind
Speaker 1: of floods the system from like a thirty seven video
Speaker 1: versus like a two hour movie. Is the dopamine distributed
Speaker 1: kind of over across time for a two hour movie
Speaker 1: versus like a quick verse for thirty seconds. Can you
Speaker 1: talk to that at all?
Speaker 2: Yeah? You know, I don't know if anybody's directly compared it,
Speaker 2: but my thought would be so like these quick bursts
Speaker 2: and like with social media, in particular the reinforcement schedule.
Speaker 2: Like if we think back to basic psychology and reinforcement,
Speaker 2: social media is considered an intermittent reinforcement schedule to where
Speaker 2: you're getting things that are interesting to you, not consistently,
Speaker 2: right Like if you think about your for you page
Speaker 2: or if you're just like scrolling your timeline, there might
Speaker 2: be something that's interesting, there might not be something that's interesting,
Speaker 2: and then you find something that's like super interesting. So
Speaker 2: that inconsistency is actually what contributes to the addiction because
Speaker 2: you're not exactly sure when you're going to get that
Speaker 2: next like superflood of dopamine, so you constantly seek that,
Speaker 2: whereas with a film, it's kind of like this persistent
Speaker 2: thing that's happened throughout a longer duration of time. So
Speaker 2: I feel like social media, because it's like such a
Speaker 2: short snippet, might actually be more more addictive. I would
Speaker 2: think in terms of like the bursts of dopamine and
Speaker 2: the schedule, like that reinforcement schedule, you.
Speaker 1: Know, And we've been having conversations in the community about
Speaker 1: people just feeling exhausted, right Like it kind of feels
Speaker 1: like we all have just like a thousand tabs open
Speaker 1: in our mind constantly switching back and forth. So for
Speaker 1: people who are listening who just maybe feel exhausted and
Speaker 1: feel like their brain may be begging for something else,
Speaker 1: what kinds of things would you suggest?
Speaker 2: I really love that Instagram now has a timer, and
Speaker 2: I've actually started experimenting with it myself. You can set
Speaker 2: a limit to how long you're on social media, and
Speaker 2: I know there's apps that allow you to do that
Speaker 2: as well, where it'll literally block you from engaging. So
Speaker 2: I think being mindful about how much time you're actually spending.
Speaker 2: And I've actually created a completely separate Instagram account, like
Speaker 2: one is professional, one is personal. But I've found that
Speaker 2: on my professional one, it's really highly curated to things
Speaker 2: that I'm professionally interested in, and I've found that it
Speaker 2: tends to be a little bit more positive, I guess overall.
Speaker 2: And it's not that like the people that I'm following
Speaker 2: are always negative, but I find that like being intentional
Speaker 2: about what I'm curating and what I'm consuming is also
Speaker 2: a piece of that to support my own mental health.
Speaker 2: And so yeah, I definitely have two separate accounts, and
Speaker 2: it's interesting comparing across the two. What sort of content
Speaker 2: comes up. So that's I think another thing. And then
Speaker 2: I would also say, like meet people in real life,
Speaker 2: you know, in three D. Get out there in the
Speaker 2: real world, and remember that there are people out there
Speaker 2: and there's other ways of engaging beyond just social media.
Speaker 2: And I think social media has its perks. It can
Speaker 2: be helpful. I think that that's what society has adjusted to.
Speaker 2: But I also think that, yeah, like reading a book,
Speaker 2: like you don't always have to read it on your
Speaker 2: kindle or read articles online like Prince stuff out, go
Speaker 2: to the park and read. So remembering that there's like
Speaker 2: the analog the analog world still exists. It doesn't always
Speaker 2: have to be a digital thing, and keeping in touch
Speaker 2: with the analog world is important too.
Speaker 1: Are there things specifically for people who maybe want to
Speaker 1: retrain their attention span? Right? Since we are, you know,
Speaker 1: so used to quick hits, is there a way? I
Speaker 1: mean you just mentioned kind of like reading book, reading
Speaker 1: things in print, other other things you would offer for
Speaker 1: like retraining.
Speaker 2: That one thing that people do and I know that
Speaker 2: I do this when I'm writing is called the Pomadero method,
Speaker 2: and so it's literally setting a goal but breaking it
Speaker 2: up into specific fragments, so like based on the amount
Speaker 2: of time you want to work. So say I want
Speaker 2: to work for one hour, and I'm like, okay, I'll
Speaker 2: do like a twenty minute session. Get up, take a break,
Speaker 2: reset my mind, come sit back down, and start back again,
Speaker 2: because I think that it's really challenging just to sustain
Speaker 2: your attention. And I find that when I'm trying to
Speaker 2: focus for extended periods of time without a break, I
Speaker 2: actually don't even really get that much more done. But
Speaker 2: if I would have taken that break and like reset,
Speaker 2: that opportunity to kind of reset, refresh, and then sit
Speaker 2: back down actually get more done, maybe even in a
Speaker 2: shorter period of time. That's one thing that I would
Speaker 2: recommend as well. So breaking it up, taking breaks to
Speaker 2: refocus your attention. I don't think we're meant to sustain
Speaker 2: our attention for hours and hours at a time, so
Speaker 2: having that opportunity to divide it up is really important too.
Speaker 1: So would you say, though, a key to the pound
Speaker 1: or method is that your reset should not involve like
Speaker 1: a quick scroll, right, like maybe it's a quick walk
Speaker 1: or like going outside and taking some deep breath or
Speaker 1: something like that.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, yes, we don't want to. We don't want just
Speaker 2: something that like grabs our attention and pulls us into
Speaker 2: something else. It's literally an opportunity for us to clear
Speaker 2: our minds of what we're actively working on, not to
Speaker 2: you know, divert or attention to something else. So you're
Speaker 2: exactly right, like taking a walk, taking some breaths, you know,
Speaker 2: engaging in mindfulness practices. All of that is really helpful.
Speaker 1: Yeah, more from our conversation after the break, So, as
Speaker 1: you were talking about like your origin story, so to speak,
Speaker 1: and what really got you interested, especially in the cognitive
Speaker 1: aging piece, you talked about the disparities that you noticed
Speaker 1: in how African Americans like there were higher rates of Alzheimer's,
Speaker 1: and so a lot of your research actually now looks
Speaker 1: at racism and sexism and how they intersect in cognitive aging.
Speaker 1: How do these experiences tend to show up in the
Speaker 1: brain across time.
Speaker 2: What I focus on is what's called cognitive aging and
Speaker 2: cognitive functioning, and so that's essentially our thinking skills. So
Speaker 2: looking at things like attention, memory processing, speed, language functioning,
Speaker 2: et cetera, and I look at it across a person's
Speaker 2: life course. And actually what we've been seeing is that
Speaker 2: these disparities exist and even in midlife, so anywhere from
Speaker 2: like forties to fifties. Even though oftentimes people are being
Speaker 2: diagnosed later in life, so in their sixties and seventies,
Speaker 2: and the average age of a person having Alzheimer's diseases
Speaker 2: around sixty five, these disparities emerge pretty early on in
Speaker 2: a person's life, which leads us to believe that people
Speaker 2: are kind of put on this trajectory based on the
Speaker 2: structural experiences that they're subjected to throughout their life course.
Speaker 2: And so what my research has focused on is looking
Speaker 2: historically at structural racism, how do we capture those experiences
Speaker 2: as well as structural sexism in their intersections, and how
Speaker 2: does that shape what's happening in contemporary times. So I
Speaker 2: think it's important to look at like historically but also
Speaker 2: present day because it's pervasive, but the way it may
Speaker 2: infest changes over time. And so that's been the focus
Speaker 2: of my work. And what we've seen is that yes,
Speaker 2: black Americans have about one point five to two times
Speaker 2: higher risk of developing Alzheimer's disease compared to white Americans.
Speaker 2: Latinos also experienced the disparity as well, and women actually
Speaker 2: have a higher prevalence of Alzheimer's disease. And so when
Speaker 2: you look at the intersections, it's actually Black women that
Speaker 2: have the highest projected prevalence of Alzheimer's disease. And initially,
Speaker 2: I think people thought it was because women tend to
Speaker 2: live longer, and Alzheimer's disease is a disorder of aging,
Speaker 2: but it's actually above and beyond women's ability or women's
Speaker 2: longer life span, and it's above and beyond genetics as well.
Speaker 2: And so what research has really focused on are the
Speaker 2: like the social and structural determinants of Alzheimer's disease, So
Speaker 2: the environments that people are living in, aging, in work in,
Speaker 2: et cetera, and how that shapes their risk and contributes
Speaker 2: to this disparity over time.
Speaker 1: And what have your studies and even just your thoughts
Speaker 1: led you to believe around like why black women have
Speaker 1: the highest rates and at the time of it, So.
Speaker 2: It's interesting, I think that there's been a lot of
Speaker 2: examination of the environment that people live in their neighborhoods
Speaker 2: and that sort of thing, and black women actually, even
Speaker 2: upwardly mobile black women, despite their socioeconomic status, actually end
Speaker 2: up disproportionately living in neighborhoods that are considered disadvantaged. And
Speaker 2: you can look at that in relation to what the
Speaker 2: demographics are of that neighborhood, so things like education, occupational status,
Speaker 2: environmental hazards, etc. So looking at that surrounding neighborhood environment.
Speaker 2: So it's not just about the family socioeconomic status, it's
Speaker 2: the actual like neighborhood and like living conditions as well,
Speaker 2: smoke exposure. Is there green space for people to walk
Speaker 2: around and to go to the park. Do they exist
Speaker 2: in a place where there's like a food desert, so
Speaker 2: there's not access to healthy foods, et cetera. So there's
Speaker 2: a number of kind of different intersecting things. And so
Speaker 2: despite black women being like upwardly mobile, like having the
Speaker 2: highest rates of like bachelor's degrees in these number of things,
Speaker 2: they're disproportionately living in these environments that shape their brain
Speaker 2: health over time.
Speaker 1: And I'm sure you're familiar with the term weathering. We've
Speaker 1: talked about that on the podcast, but I'm sure that
Speaker 1: it has come up in your work as well. Can
Speaker 1: you talk about the impact of weathering, what that is
Speaker 1: and how you may be seeing it play out in
Speaker 1: brain health.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So weathering is a term coined by Arlene Geronimous
Speaker 2: that is meant to capture the accelerated biological aging that
Speaker 2: Black women experience compared to women of other racial and
Speaker 2: ethnic groups. And one of I believe it was Arlene
Speaker 2: Geronomous's study or one of the studies looking at telomeres.
Speaker 2: So telomeres are thought to be an indicator of biological aging.
Speaker 2: Telomeres are essentially like the end caps of a chromosome,
Speaker 2: and so as we get older, your telomeres get shorter naturally,
Speaker 2: and so it's thought to be this indicator of a
Speaker 2: person's internal sort of biological age. And what looking at
Speaker 2: this length tells you is how much weathering, in addition
Speaker 2: to just like natural aging, a person experiences. And one
Speaker 2: of the studies found that in comparison to white women,
Speaker 2: black women were about seven and a half years biologically older.
Speaker 2: So when matched on chronological age, black women are about
Speaker 2: seven and a half years biologically older compared to white women.
Speaker 2: And it's thought to be due to these systems of
Speaker 2: disadvantage that causes like this wear and tear on Black
Speaker 2: women's bodies over time. I think that also has implications
Speaker 2: for cognitive aging as well, and the relationship isn't as
Speaker 2: straightforward as we thought it would be. So like looking
Speaker 2: at what predicts this accelerated aging. Of course we know
Speaker 2: systems of disadvantage, but how they're exactly related. Whether socioeconomic
Speaker 2: status is also like a buffer, So having higher socioeconomic
Speaker 2: status could potentially mitigate the impact of this. So people
Speaker 2: are starting to try to tease apart the different like
Speaker 2: nuanced relationships to have a better understanding of this overall.
Speaker 1: You know, as you were talking and one of my
Speaker 1: questions and you answered it was going to be around
Speaker 1: like are we seeing higher rates of things like Alzheimer's
Speaker 1: and women And we talked about like the sleep impact
Speaker 1: on brainhealth. It made me think about, like all the
Speaker 1: conversations we've been having around like perimenopause and menopause, and
Speaker 1: am thinking around like is there a connection there just
Speaker 1: given kind of like the hormonal changes on the other
Speaker 1: changes that tends the impact women at that age maybe
Speaker 1: almost right before it would be the onset of something
Speaker 1: like Alzheimer's.
Speaker 2: Yes, so that actually has been I think where the
Speaker 2: field is focusing its attention now. And interestingly, I don't
Speaker 2: know that there's really been like a comprehensive longitudinal study
Speaker 2: that's captured all of the information we would need to
Speaker 2: have to be able to address this. But what we
Speaker 2: know is that when women experience menopause perimenopause, there's like
Speaker 2: a rapid decrease in estrogen, and estrogen has been found
Speaker 2: to be supportive of brain health, and so people are
Speaker 2: thinking that perhaps around this time in this like rapid
Speaker 2: deterioration and estrogen and these other sorts of hormones, there
Speaker 2: may be an association with Alzheimer's disease. Researchers are designing
Speaker 2: studies that are allowing us to get more into women's
Speaker 2: health history so that we can like longitudinally examine these
Speaker 2: associations more clearly, because there's other confounding factors that could
Speaker 2: potentially impact this, and so having like a really strongly
Speaker 2: designed study I think is really critical. And so that's
Speaker 2: really where the field I think is focusing its efforts to, well,
Speaker 2: can you.
Speaker 1: Talk about maybe some other blind spots that you feel
Speaker 1: like need to be addressed as it relates specifically to
Speaker 1: black women in cognitive aging.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think, and this is my own personal interest,
Speaker 2: I think, and this is something that I'm actively working
Speaker 2: on reframing myself. I think that black women are often
Speaker 2: pathologized and discussed in this sort of deficits framework. And
Speaker 2: that's not to negate the fact that disparities are a
Speaker 2: real thing and like black women are disproportionately impacted by it.
Speaker 2: But black women also exist in this way that's very healthy.
Speaker 2: They live long, healthy, full lives, and I think understanding
Speaker 2: what allows us to live well is also just as
Speaker 2: important as explaining what's not allowing us to live well.
Speaker 2: For me, I've been focusing on hopefulness, how hopefulness might
Speaker 2: shape brain health. I've been thinking through afrofuturism and what
Speaker 2: it means for black womn men to shape the future
Speaker 2: that they want, what that looks like, and civic engagement,
Speaker 2: so how that shapes spring health. So I think there
Speaker 2: are other things to be focused on. Like we understand
Speaker 2: that the disparity exists, I think it's important to understand why,
Speaker 2: but I also think it's equally important to think about
Speaker 2: how to intervene. And Black women have the answers to
Speaker 2: that because we have black women that are doing well right,
Speaker 2: So understanding that through a black woman's lines, I think
Speaker 2: is really important, and that's also been a focus of
Speaker 2: my work.
Speaker 1: So we know that if we aren't necessarily in the
Speaker 1: room to ask these questions, then other people are not
Speaker 1: necessarily thinking about this. Right. You are bringing your own
Speaker 1: particular lands, your family, and your cultural lends to the
Speaker 1: work that you're doing. Can you talk about kind of
Speaker 1: just the state of like your field and like do
Speaker 1: you feel like there is more need for diversity for
Speaker 1: people to come at these questions from lots of different angles.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, I think there needs to be more diversity in
Speaker 2: the field. I think there needs to be more black
Speaker 2: women in the field, and I think there needs to
Speaker 2: be more community engaged work in community based participatory research.
Speaker 2: When I think about academia and even my experiences as
Speaker 2: a graduate student, it feels very siloed and very disconnected
Speaker 2: from what's actually happening in the real world. And a
Speaker 2: lot of the times when you're first learning, you're just
Speaker 2: reading about these statistics and information in a book you
Speaker 2: have no concrete hands on, unless maybe you have a
Speaker 2: family member or someone that's directly impacted by the thing
Speaker 2: that you're studying. It feels very distant from the actual
Speaker 2: issue at hand, and I think the best way for
Speaker 2: people to learn about an issue is to talk to
Speaker 2: the people that are directly impacted by it and to
Speaker 2: allow them to lead what the questions are from a
Speaker 2: research standpoint, and to be involved in the research. And
Speaker 2: so with some of the community based research that I'm doing,
Speaker 2: that's exactly what's happening. It's like it's a collaboration where
Speaker 2: they're actually a part of the process as well in
Speaker 2: guiding what the questions are. And yes, researchers have expertise
Speaker 2: in the actual research methodology, but I think the people
Speaker 2: with the lived experiences bring the questions and they also
Speaker 2: can shape the research methodology as well. So I think
Speaker 2: that's really where the field should be going and not
Speaker 2: being so like siloed and hierarchical and the other thing.
Speaker 2: It's really kind of wild. It's like, you get these results,
Speaker 2: you publish them in this journal that nobody ever reads
Speaker 2: unless you're an academic and like very specifically interested in
Speaker 2: this topic, and the people that are impacted by it
Speaker 2: never have access to it's like behind a paywall or whatever.
Speaker 2: So I think also thinking about ways to translate the work.
Speaker 2: First of all, the community should own the results, So like,
Speaker 2: let's start there, but also thinking about important ways to
Speaker 2: translate the research. Way that's tangible for a lay person
Speaker 2: to understand so that they actually can do something with
Speaker 2: the information is really important. And I think where the
Speaker 2: field should go as well.
Speaker 1: More from our conversation after the break, so I can
Speaker 1: imagine that there's a young sister somewhere who's going to
Speaker 1: hear you doctor Tinischell in the podcast and say, oh
Speaker 1: my gosh, I want to do what she does right,
Speaker 1: And just like you talked about kind of stumbling into
Speaker 1: your field, what advice would you give to someone who
Speaker 1: maybe hears this and thinks like, oh, I want to
Speaker 1: study something like that, Like how do I shape my
Speaker 1: career like that? What advice would you have?
Speaker 2: Yeah? I think really finding mentors, Finding mentors that are
Speaker 2: doing something it doesn't have to be the exact thing
Speaker 2: that you want to do, but doing something that's in
Speaker 2: the ballpark of what you want to do. And I
Speaker 2: think diversifying the mentors that you have, so like, maybe
Speaker 2: the person that helps you with like the research question
Speaker 2: isn't always the person that's going to help you with
Speaker 2: what community engagement looks like. Isn't going to be the
Speaker 2: person Maybe if you want to do more clinical work.
Speaker 2: That isn't going to be the person that informs you
Speaker 2: about clinicals. So having people that can shake these different
Speaker 2: facets of who you are or who you're hoping to become.
Speaker 2: And then yeah, combining and taking people don't always give
Speaker 2: you advice that's helpful, So taking what you think is
Speaker 2: meaningful to you and then leaving the rest behind. And
Speaker 2: I think doing it in that way. I also think
Speaker 2: it's important for people to get life experience. I know
Speaker 2: there's like this pressure to just jump straight into graduate school,
Speaker 2: jump straight into your career. One of the things going
Speaker 2: back to social media, we see people's highlight reels and
Speaker 2: it looks like they're constantly like climbing this ladder of success
Speaker 2: whatever that means, right, But I think it's really important
Speaker 2: to take the time to know who you are, know
Speaker 2: what you actually care about, and that only comes through
Speaker 2: time and through experience and sometimes through trial and error.
Speaker 2: For me, it was a little bit of a windy
Speaker 2: path and I didn't go into all the details of
Speaker 2: this story, but it took me doing sometimes things I
Speaker 2: didn't want to do to realize like I actually don't
Speaker 2: this or this doesn't have a lot of meaning to me,
Speaker 2: and so I don't think that I can do this
Speaker 2: for the rest of my life. And so it took
Speaker 2: me having those experiences to realize, Okay, well this is
Speaker 2: what I want to do. It's like a refinement process
Speaker 2: over time. And so that's another thing that I would
Speaker 2: recommend as well.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for that. So you started offering
Speaker 1: us lots of great tips around, you know, think that
Speaker 1: we could do to kind of really take care of
Speaker 1: our brain health. Are there small kind of daily habits
Speaker 1: or things that you would suggest for people to kind
Speaker 1: of slow down any cognitive aging.
Speaker 2: Well, the one thing I will say is that we're
Speaker 2: all cognitively aging. But I think the thing to like
Speaker 2: preventive practices or like daily preventative practices, trying to take walks,
Speaker 2: just walking, I think is helpful, trying to do a
Speaker 2: brisk walk, right, So thinking about the cardiovascular piece of it,
Speaker 2: I think with the phone, putting your phone on, do
Speaker 2: not disturb after a certain time, right, And really, I
Speaker 2: don't know. I've been trying to develop specific like rituals
Speaker 2: around bedtime so that it feels like I can calm
Speaker 2: my mind down and I'm not feeling the need to
Speaker 2: like look at my phone. It helps me to transition
Speaker 2: to sleep a little bit more easily. And it also
Speaker 2: again I'm not experiencing that blue light that like impacts
Speaker 2: the quality of my sleep over time. I also have
Speaker 2: been trying to be more just like mindful of my diet,
Speaker 2: grocery shopping and like planning meal prepping. Those sorts of
Speaker 2: things I think all can support brain health as well. Yeah,
Speaker 2: so it's just like mindfully navigating throughout the day.
Speaker 1: That I hear often and you didn't mention, but you
Speaker 1: did mention, like forming new what did you call like
Speaker 1: new neural pathways can do is helpful for brain health.
Speaker 1: So like puzzles and like using like hobbies with your
Speaker 1: hands or those kinds of things also things we should
Speaker 1: be looking at.
Speaker 2: Yes, So that's the other thing. So neuroplasticity is supported
Speaker 2: by novelty. And so for instance, if you're doing this
Speaker 2: crossword puzzles every day, your brain kind of is already
Speaker 2: acclimated to that. So it's really about trying new things.
Speaker 2: And that's actually something that I've been doing too, Like
Speaker 2: recently I started learning how to sew. I've always had
Speaker 2: an interest in sewing, so I started taking sewing classes,
Speaker 2: and it actually has challenged, Like, it's challenged my brain,
Speaker 2: it's challenged my visual spatial skills, like reading a pattern
Speaker 2: and translating it to actual fabric and material has been
Speaker 2: a challenge, but a good one for my brain. So
Speaker 2: it's about doing things that are new that maybe you're
Speaker 2: a little bit outside of your box. That stretches your
Speaker 2: brain to form those new connections and to think in
Speaker 2: different ways. So developing new hobbies is also really important.
Speaker 1: Doctor Tanisha, Is there anything that you would add to
Speaker 1: our conversation around like digital world and technology that you
Speaker 1: haven't said because of AI? Right? Like, is there any
Speaker 1: thing that kind of keep in mind around like brain
Speaker 1: health and cognitive aging as it relates to interacting with AI,
Speaker 1: Since it feels like it's everywhere now, Yeah, it's everywhere.
Speaker 2: I think it's almost like it's replacing I won't say
Speaker 2: it's entirely replacing us, but I think it's You could
Speaker 2: write an entire essay using AI without having to think, right,
Speaker 2: and if we just go back to what I shared
Speaker 2: about building those new connections thinking about things in new ways,
Speaker 2: you kind of eliminate that opportunity by using AI. So
Speaker 2: where there are moments I think where AI is a
Speaker 2: little bit of a shortcut and it might help like
Speaker 2: our efficiency throughout the day. I also think we should
Speaker 2: be using it mindfully and thinking about ways that it
Speaker 2: actually may be interfering with our ability to support our
Speaker 2: brain health too. So it's really I think it's nuanced.
Speaker 2: I think there's a balance that we need to strike.
Speaker 2: And then there's a lot to talk about AI being
Speaker 2: biased against certain communities. So I think it's a little
Speaker 2: bit of a like wild frontier and it's moving so
Speaker 2: quickly that Yeah, there's a lot that we can talk
Speaker 2: about with that. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, So you mentioned the term afrofuturism, and we talked
Speaker 1: about that a little bit on the podcast, but definitely
Speaker 1: not a conversation that combines afrofuturism and things like neuroscience
Speaker 1: and brain health. Can you talk more about like how
Speaker 1: afrofuturism impacts your work and informs your work.
Speaker 2: Yes, So, as a person who studies structural racism and sexism,
Speaker 2: I really want to center black women's visions for the
Speaker 2: future and what it means to be in a future
Speaker 2: where that's no longer a factor, where black women feel
Speaker 2: safe where they feel protected and are a part of
Speaker 2: building that future. And so that's really what my entry
Speaker 2: point into afrofuturism was. But so I use it and
Speaker 2: a lot of the community engaged work that I do
Speaker 2: so providing education to elders in the community about what
Speaker 2: afrofuturism is, how they are afrofuturists, how they come from
Speaker 2: a lineage of afrofuturists. By nature of just like them
Speaker 2: making it to the next day, you're an afrofuturist, like right,
Speaker 2: You've designed a strategy to make it and to survive
Speaker 2: into today's society. So that's one thing. And then I
Speaker 2: also have been thinking about it in relation to supporting
Speaker 2: brain health and actually what I found, so it's it's
Speaker 2: preliminary results, but I did a ten week workshop with
Speaker 2: black women called Radical Imagination, a dream Space for Black Women,
Speaker 2: where they used these afrofuturistic practices, they learned about what
Speaker 2: afrofuturism was, they created art around afrofuturism, and what we
Speaker 2: actually explored was the concept of time scarcity, So how
Speaker 2: black women's time is disproportionately monopolized to where they don't
Speaker 2: have time to care for themselves, for their well being
Speaker 2: and how that's related to health. And so in this
Speaker 2: afrofuturistic framework, we actually asked, Okay, what if time scarcity
Speaker 2: wasn't a thing? What if you had unlimited time? Like,
Speaker 2: what would you do with that? How would you support yourself?
Speaker 2: How would you support society? So it was really like
Speaker 2: this future sort of visioning exercise that had the participants
Speaker 2: thinking about what it would mean to exist in this
Speaker 2: kind of alternate potential future. And what I found at
Speaker 2: the end of the ten week series was that the
Speaker 2: people that participated actually reported higher levels of hopefulness one
Speaker 2: and then hopefulness about their ability to shape the future.
Speaker 2: And so I think there's research out there that shows
Speaker 2: being hopeful is supportive obviously of mental health, but also
Speaker 2: of brain health. And so I think having sort of
Speaker 2: this afrofuturistic framework engaging with elders around what afrofuturism is
Speaker 2: one shapes hopefulness. But I also think it's a way
Speaker 2: of getting them to think about how they can be
Speaker 2: involved in creating the future that they want. So it's
Speaker 2: not just like a mind exercise or like a thought exercise,
Speaker 2: it's actually like, what are the practical strategies that we
Speaker 2: can use to build the future that we want, and
Speaker 2: ideally it's something that like motivates them to act on
Speaker 2: it as well. So that's one thing. And then afrofuturism
Speaker 2: intersects with our imagination, right, our ability to think about things,
Speaker 2: And there's a whole body of research that shows that
Speaker 2: simply imagining something, so like imagining me moving my hand
Speaker 2: or imagining me reaching out to grab the cup that's
Speaker 2: sitting beside me activates the same areas of the brain
Speaker 2: that would be activated if I actually went and engaged
Speaker 2: in that action. So the simple active imagination activates them
Speaker 2: those pathways as well. So I think that there's these
Speaker 2: really interesting and potentially like unexplored areas that are showing
Speaker 2: relationships between like the simple act of just believing, having hope,
Speaker 2: imagining in our actual brain activity and potentially brain health.
Speaker 2: So that's something I'm interested in. So I'm interested in
Speaker 2: it from like a community engage standpoint, but I'm also
Speaker 2: interested in like the neuropsychology, the neuroscience of it, and
Speaker 2: how it shapes long term brain health.
Speaker 1: I love that that sounds very promising. Now is the
Speaker 1: plan to maybe run another ten week group and then
Speaker 1: write this up or how are you thinking of expanding
Speaker 1: this work?
Speaker 2: So I wrote up the preliminary results in a paper,
Speaker 2: so I have like a model of how all of
Speaker 2: these things that I just shared are connected. But I'm
Speaker 2: also wanting to so move it from like model to
Speaker 2: actual action, so like the actual implementation. So, if you know,
Speaker 2: working with this group of seniors in the community, what's
Speaker 2: something that we want to change about our neighborhood? Right?
Speaker 2: And if there's something we want to change about our neighborhood,
Speaker 2: how can we apply this concept of afrofuturism, this framework,
Speaker 2: this hopefulness to make that change. So I want to
Speaker 2: move from like let's talk about it to like, actually,
Speaker 2: how can we intervene to shape the future that we want?
Speaker 2: And so for me, that's really the next step. And
Speaker 2: then another next step would be how over time does
Speaker 2: this impact a person's brain health? So there's the like
Speaker 2: civic engagement, the community engagement piece, but there's also the
Speaker 2: like how is this supporting beyond your subjective experience of it,
Speaker 2: which is important, it's definitely an important piece, But how
Speaker 2: is it supporting your cognitive functioning as well as like
Speaker 2: your physical brain health.
Speaker 1: Okay, so we will stay tuned for more details about
Speaker 1: you publishing this model. Thank you for sharing it. So,
Speaker 1: if there was one thing that listeners from this conversation
Speaker 1: could take away about how to take care of their
Speaker 1: brains long term, what would it be.
Speaker 2: The one thing I would say is stay connected, stay moving,
Speaker 2: and stay mindful. Those are like the three things that
Speaker 2: I would say. So stay connected to people in person
Speaker 2: if you have to, Okay, online is fine as well,
Speaker 2: but ideally in person. Stay moving, so getting your exercise in,
Speaker 2: and then stay mindful, Stay mindful of what you're consuming,
Speaker 2: Stay mindful of what you're eating, stay mindful of the
Speaker 2: sleep habits, et cetera. Yeah, those are the three main things.
Speaker 1: So if there's somebody who's listening and they feel like, oh,
Speaker 1: I think I'm too far gone, like I've done irreperable
Speaker 1: damage to my brain because of the digital stimulation, what
Speaker 1: would you say to them?
Speaker 2: It's never too late. It's never ever too late. You
Speaker 2: can engage in your brain health journey at any point
Speaker 2: in time, and the fact that you're still here is
Speaker 2: a testament to that. So you're yeah, there's never a
Speaker 2: wrong time to start. And so I encourage If people
Speaker 2: are really interested in supporting their brain health, do it now. Yeah,
Speaker 2: it's never too late.
Speaker 1: And why can we stay connect with you? Doctor Tannish
Speaker 1: is their website that you'd like to share in any
Speaker 1: social media channels.
Speaker 2: Sure, you can find some of the work and some
Speaker 2: of the writings that I've published at my website Tanisha
Speaker 2: Hiljarett dot com. And then you can also find me
Speaker 2: on Instagram at black Women Futures, and then you can
Speaker 2: find me on LinkedIn at Tanisha hill Jerk Perfect.
Speaker 1: We'll be sure to include all of that in our
Speaker 1: show notes. Thank you so much for suending some time
Speaker 1: with us today. I appreciate it.
Speaker 2: Thank you, doctor Joy, It's been a pleasure.
Speaker 1: Thank you. I'm so glad doctor hil Jarrett was able
Speaker 1: to join me for this conversation. To learn more about
Speaker 1: her and her work, be sure to visit the show
Speaker 1: notes at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com slash Session four
Speaker 1: seventy four, and don't forget to text this episode to
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Speaker 1: This episode was produced by Alise Ellis Indechubu and Bria Moseley.
Speaker 1: Editing was done by Dennison Bradford. Thank y'all so much
Speaker 1: for joining me again this week. I'll look forward to
Speaker 1: continuing this conversation with you all real soon. Take good care,