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Speaker 1: Today, an indict moves unsealed, charging Donald J. Trump with

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Speaker 1: felony violations of our national security laws as well as

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Speaker 1: participating in a conspiracy to obstruct justice. This indictment was

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Speaker 1: voted by a grand jury of citizens in the Southern

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Speaker 1: District of Florida, and I invite everyone to read it

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Speaker 1: in full to understand the scope and the gravity of

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Speaker 1: the crimes charge of one set of laws in this

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Speaker 1: country and the apply to everyone.

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Speaker 2: Another major prosecution of Donald Trump gets under way in

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Speaker 2: a Miami courtroom today. We'll get into the details of

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Speaker 2: the classified documents case and what to watch for in

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Speaker 2: the weeks and months ahead. With Bloomberg Sarah Forden.

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Speaker 3: We've never had a presidential hopeful running under such serious charges,

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Speaker 3: and there are real questions about what could happen if

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Speaker 3: one he's convicted and to he wins the presidency.

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Speaker 2: And Zoe Tillman, it's a.

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Speaker 4: Situation where come trial next year, you know, his lawyers

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Speaker 4: might be put on the stand by the government to

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Speaker 4: testify against their own former client.

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Speaker 2: I'm Wescasova today on the Big Take. Donald Trump faces

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Speaker 2: his first federal indictment. Zoe, We've been reading all about

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Speaker 2: these charges can you spell out what the case is

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Speaker 2: against Trump and what are the charges that are the

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Speaker 2: ones that are most important.

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Speaker 4: Sure, so it's interesting, you know, the question of what's

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Speaker 4: most important and most serious can really be in the

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Speaker 4: eye of the beholder. So in terms of just straight

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Speaker 4: possible prison time, the charges that Donald Trump obstructed justice,

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Speaker 4: that he tried to interfere with the government getting back

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Speaker 4: its national security secrets. It's classified documents. Those charge orches

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Speaker 4: our felony federal charges that carry up to twenty years

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Speaker 4: in prison. Now he's facing multiple counts of that. That

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Speaker 4: doesn't mean that those stack up and he's facing hundreds

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Speaker 4: of years behind bars. But in terms of you know,

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Speaker 4: where the biggest risk for him is in terms of

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Speaker 4: prison time, it comes from obstruction. Now in terms of

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Speaker 4: you know, the court of public opinion and substantively, what

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Speaker 4: seems most serious are the charges that he unlawfully held

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Speaker 4: on to state secrets, and that's under the Espionage Act.

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Speaker 4: It's wilful retention of national defense information. And while it

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Speaker 4: carries you know, less maximum prison time up to ten years,

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Speaker 4: I think that for most of the public that really

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Speaker 4: is what feels most serious, both in terms of threat

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Speaker 4: to national security and also politically to him. You know,

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Speaker 4: what is most damaging is for a political rival to

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Speaker 4: stand up and say you held on to information that

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Speaker 4: put other Americans at risk, that put our intelligence programs

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Speaker 4: at ris that jeopardized our relationship with foreign allies.

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Speaker 2: Sarah. Prosecuting a former president obviously a pretty big deal,

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Speaker 2: and then when it comes with the possibility of prison time,

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Speaker 2: it has extra weight on it. How likely is it

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Speaker 2: that if Trump were to be convicted, that he would

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Speaker 2: actually go to prison?

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Speaker 3: You know, this is really getting this country into uncharted territory.

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Speaker 3: We've never before charged a former president with the felony indictment.

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Speaker 3: We've never had a presidential hopeful running under such serious charges,

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Speaker 3: and there are real questions about what could happen if

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Speaker 3: one he's convicted and to he wins the presidency, and

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Speaker 3: so there's a lot of speculation. You know, can you

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Speaker 3: run this country from jail? I don't hear anyone saying

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Speaker 3: they think he is actually going to face significant jail time,

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Speaker 3: But I think the questions that is raising, and just

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Speaker 3: the lack of any provision for this scenario in the

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Speaker 3: Constitution means we are really embarking on a new chapter

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Speaker 3: for this country.

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Speaker 4: Something that's really interesting in the indictment is they don't

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Speaker 4: charge him with every single piece of classified information that

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Speaker 4: they found. You know, it's thirty one counts, thirty one

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Speaker 4: specific types of documents, and they're the most serious, the

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Speaker 4: most highly classified, but it's not one hundred and some

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Speaker 4: odd counts, right But where that comes into play is sentencing,

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Speaker 4: and you know where he seems to face a lot

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Speaker 4: of risk is if he's convicted, a judge can look

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Speaker 4: at the totality of the allegations against him, even if

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Speaker 4: they're not individual accounts that he's been convicted of, and

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Speaker 4: that's where you could see things like sentencing enhancements. That's

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Speaker 4: where you know, the potential for more prison time kicks in,

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Speaker 4: even if on paper right now, I mean it looks

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Speaker 4: pretty bad on paper, but it's sentencing, you know, that's

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Speaker 4: where you could see judges saying, you know, yes, you

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Speaker 4: were convicted of ex counts and the sentencing guidelines range

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Speaker 4: is for a first time offender like you, actually not

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Speaker 4: that high. But we're dealing with state secrets and we're

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Speaker 4: dealing with, you know, a universe of documents that is

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Speaker 4: in fact much larger than the number of counts, so

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Speaker 4: all of these have the potential down the road to

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Speaker 4: actually increase the likelihood that he could spend more time

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Speaker 4: in prison than other comparable cases.

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Speaker 2: Zoe Sarah raised this question about whether Trump could run

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Speaker 2: for president if he were to be in jail. Which

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Speaker 2: of these charges would carry disqualification to hold public office

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Speaker 2: if he were to be convicted.

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Speaker 4: So none of these charges carried disqualification. Early on, when

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Speaker 4: we saw the affidavit for the search at Mar A

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Speaker 4: Lago last summer, they had put a federal crime that

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Speaker 4: does carry disqualification on the list of crimes they were investigating,

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Speaker 4: and that had to do with intentionally concealing destroying government records.

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Speaker 4: And while there are sort of analogous charges in here,

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Speaker 4: it's not that statute specifically, So you know, the Justice

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Speaker 4: departm maybe worth thinking about it, but perhaps decided that

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Speaker 4: the headache of arguing that particular constitutional uncertainty was really

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Speaker 4: not worth it. So there's nothing in here that disqualifies him.

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Speaker 4: And even there were questions about whether that would apply

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Speaker 4: to the presidency, but that's all off the table.

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Speaker 2: But as a practical matter, it'd be kind of difficult

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Speaker 2: if he had been convicted to serve as president.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean if he is in jail. If he

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Speaker 3: does go to jail, that practically would be very awkward

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Speaker 3: to manage. But if he's not in jail, he could

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Speaker 3: in theory, still be running the country as a convicted felon.

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Speaker 4: I mean, and then the question is also can he

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Speaker 4: pardon himself, And there are some legal scholars who say absolutely,

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Speaker 4: you know, that's his prerogative when it comes to federal offenses.

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Speaker 4: If the case were still pending at the point that

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Speaker 4: he's elected president, you know, the Justice Department could be

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Speaker 4: instructed to simply dismiss the case. So there are ways

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Speaker 4: that he can exercise that power to his advantage. And

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Speaker 4: you know, although he can pardon himself potentially to get

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Speaker 4: out of federal crimes, where that does not apply is

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Speaker 4: in the case of state charges. So in New York

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Speaker 4: where he's facing state felony charges related to his ellected

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Speaker 4: role in directing hush money payments to an adult film star,

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Speaker 4: and in Fulton County, Georgia, where he's under investigation for

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Speaker 4: his role in trying to overturn the results of the

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Speaker 4: twenty twenty presidential election, he would not be able to

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Speaker 4: do anything either way as president or not to get

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Speaker 4: out of those cases.

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Speaker 2: Sarah the prosecutor, Jack Smith, in spelling out this story

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Speaker 2: of what he says Trump did, noted that in Trump's

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Speaker 2: presidential campaign he attacked Hillary Clinton for her handling of documents.

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Speaker 2: Why would he put that in a legal document.

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Speaker 3: Actually, the allegations that Trump already made statements about the

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Speaker 3: handling of classified documents with regards to Hillary Clinton, these

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Speaker 3: are intrinsic points to Jack Smith's case.

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Speaker 5: We also need the best protection of classified information. That

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Speaker 5: is the worst situation. Hillary's private email scandal, which put

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Speaker 5: our classified information in the reach of our enemies, disqualifies

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Speaker 5: her from the.

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Speaker 3: Presidents because by doing so, he is trying to show

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Speaker 3: that Trump allegedly knew exactly what he was doing with

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Speaker 3: classified documents, he knew it was wrong. He had already

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Speaker 3: called out Hillary Clinton for similar behavior, and he had

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Speaker 3: already threatened or promised to prosecute her for this behavior. So,

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Speaker 3: in a way, these remarks bring the story full circle.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, and you know what's been tricky for the Justice

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Speaker 4: Department in the past and classified documents cases is proving

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Speaker 4: not that someone had the documents. That's pretty easy if

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Speaker 4: you find them at their house. Right, it's proving that

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Speaker 4: they knowingly, willfully held on to this when they shouldn't,

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Speaker 4: and getting into that question of intent and state of

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Speaker 4: mind is very tricky to do. You don't usually have

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Speaker 4: a defendant on record talking a lot about the rules

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Speaker 4: about classified documents, and you know, in this case not.

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Speaker 4: They sort of present the chronology of Trump repeatedly talking

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Speaker 4: about these are the rules, you can't do this, this

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Speaker 4: is wrong. I promise to follow all the rules and

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Speaker 4: protect them. And then they pair that with what seems

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Speaker 4: like a pretty remarkable recording of you know, what they

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Speaker 4: allege is Trump talking to other people about in Bedminster

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Speaker 4: at his golf club after he leaves office, appearing to say,

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Speaker 4: I've got this really sensitive military plan of attack, but

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Speaker 4: I can't show it to you because it's secret, and

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Speaker 4: I could have declassified it as president, but now I can't.

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Speaker 4: It's just a remarkable timeline that they can lay out

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Speaker 4: that you just don't see in these types of case historically.

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Speaker 3: And this is especially important in my view because this

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Speaker 3: is such a fraught time and such a fraught situation politically,

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Speaker 3: and so you know, the noise is just amping up

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Speaker 3: on these charges in this case. But by bringing it

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Speaker 3: back to the intent and also the sensitivity of these

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Speaker 3: national security documents, I think Jack Smith was showing that

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Speaker 3: this is important for the safety and the security of

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Speaker 3: the American people.

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Speaker 2: And Zoe, how important is it that some of this

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Speaker 2: evidence seems to have come from Trump's own lawyers.

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Speaker 4: It's extraordinary, you know. I think time and again we

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Speaker 4: have seen lawyers take him on as a client, and

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Speaker 4: then they are the ones who face repercussions or at

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Speaker 4: a minimum discomfort in that position. You know, whether we're

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Speaker 4: going back to Michael Cohen, his former longtime personal attorney,

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Speaker 4: who wound up, you know, spending prison time after admitting,

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Speaker 4: you know he said, is that he directed the hush

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Speaker 4: money payments that are the subject of the New York

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Speaker 4: case that became a prosecutable offense for him. You know,

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Speaker 4: we've seen lawyers who worked with Trump in twenty twenty

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Speaker 4: on the election challenges, they're facing challenges to their bar license,

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Speaker 4: and now we see his latest crop of lawyers, some

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Speaker 4: of them in the extremely uncomfortable position of a having

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Speaker 4: their work scrutinized by prosecutors in a criminal probe, which

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Speaker 4: no lawyer ever wants. You know, we see lawyers being

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Speaker 4: compelled to come in to testify before a grand jury

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Speaker 4: and fights over you know, whether the attorney client privilege

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Speaker 4: can be pierced because perhaps they were used in the

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Speaker 4: commission of a crime by their own client. You know,

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Speaker 4: we didn't see any of his lawyers prosecuted. The way

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Speaker 4: that prosecutors have laid this out is that you know,

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Speaker 4: they didn't know that Trump was allegedly using them in

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Speaker 4: this way to obstruct the investigation. But you know, we're

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Speaker 4: it's a situation where come trial next year, you know,

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Speaker 4: his lawyers might be put on the stand by the

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Speaker 4: government to testify against their own former client. It's just,

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Speaker 4: you know, the risks that attorneys repeatedly take on representing him.

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Speaker 4: You know, it's become a pattern.

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Speaker 2: After the break, can the Trump appointed judge in the

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Speaker 2: case slow things down, Sarah? The prosecution got an unwelcome

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Speaker 2: surprise in the judge who was selected to hear this case.

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Speaker 2: Can you tell us about her because we've heard from

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Speaker 2: her before.

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Speaker 3: Well, just taking a step back before we get to

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Speaker 3: the judge. The last minute surprise in this prosecution was

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Speaker 3: that everybody expected Jack Smith to seek the indictments in Washington,

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Speaker 3: where he had acceded a grand jury and there had

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Speaker 3: been collecting testimony for months. What we discovered in just

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Speaker 3: the days up to the indictment was that there had

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Speaker 3: also been a grand jury convened in Florida, and that

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Speaker 3: ended up becoming the place the scene of the unsealing

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Speaker 3: of these indictments. And the reason is that the guidelines

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Speaker 3: call for charges to be brought in the location in

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Speaker 3: the jurisdiction where the crimes were allegedly committed. And the

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Speaker 3: big surprise, as you pointed out, was that they actually

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Speaker 3: drew a Trump appointed judge, Eileen Cannon, who had been

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Speaker 3: very hostile earlier in this investigation to the government's effort

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Speaker 3: to access these secret documents.

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Speaker 4: That's right, Eileen Cannon was really a central player in

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Speaker 4: this investigation from the summer through the fall. In the

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Speaker 4: federal court system, judges are typically randomly assigned to cases,

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Speaker 4: so there's no indication that anyone fudged rules to get

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Speaker 4: Trump a more potentially favorable judge or one of his

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Speaker 4: own appointees. You know, I think once a case is

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Speaker 4: brought in certain districts, you can look at the bench

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Speaker 4: and say, oh, you know, the Southern district of Florida

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Speaker 4: has a higher proportion of Republican appointees. It's a more

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Speaker 4: conservative state. But you know, it's important at the outset

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Speaker 4: to note that this is a random assignment and judges

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Speaker 4: are of life appointments and they can do whatever they want,

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Speaker 4: and they're not beholden to the president who appointed them.

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Speaker 4: We've seen that, you know, come back in many ways.

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Speaker 4: But that said, Judge Cannon took the unexpected step in

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Speaker 4: the fall of granting former President Trump's requests to stop

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Speaker 4: the Justice Department from using the documents that they had

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Speaker 4: seized from mar A Lago. She agreed with him that

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Speaker 4: there should be a special master to review them, you know,

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Speaker 4: and I think this was a surprise to legal commentators

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Speaker 4: because normally the judiciary is not supposed to step in

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Speaker 4: at the phase of a criminal investigation before anything has

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Speaker 4: been indicted.

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Speaker 3: You know.

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Speaker 4: The deference at that point is to the executive branch

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Speaker 4: and what the Justice Department is doing and what steps

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Speaker 4: they're taking. It's very rare to have a judge step

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Speaker 4: in like that. Ultimately, Judge Cannon was reversed by the

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Speaker 4: Eleventh Circuit twice. The first time it was to let

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Speaker 4: the Justice Department keep using the classified material that they

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Speaker 4: had seized, and then in December reversing her outright saying

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Speaker 4: there was no reason to step in here, it was inappropriate.

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Speaker 4: There should not have been a special master, and you

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Speaker 4: Justice Department are now free to use everything. And when

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Speaker 4: it comes back, if it comes back in an indictment,

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Speaker 4: that is the point when a judge could sort of

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Speaker 4: probe and say was this appropriate. So far, it doesn't

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Speaker 4: appear she's considering recusing. There's been no motion for that

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Speaker 4: to happen. That something the Justice Department could seek. There

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Speaker 4: are a lot of risks in that because if they lose,

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Speaker 4: she's still the judge and they've now you criticized, putting

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Speaker 4: it nicely, her integrity and her ability to do her job.

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Speaker 4: So it's always a risk that parties take when they

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Speaker 4: try to get a judge knocked off the case. And

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Speaker 4: you know, we don't know how she's going to rule

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Speaker 4: in this case in the end. So you know, he's

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Speaker 4: set to appear today in Miami as of now, before

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Speaker 4: a federal magistrate judge to be a ragin, not before

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Speaker 4: Judge Cannon. But you know, soon enough a schedule will

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Speaker 4: be set where she will take the reins of this

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Speaker 4: case and will see how she intends to proceed.

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Speaker 2: Sarah, what concerns would the prosecution have about Judge Cannon

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Speaker 2: presiding over this case.

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Speaker 3: I mean, the case is wide open and she is

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Speaker 3: going to be determining everything about it, how evidence is entered,

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Speaker 3: how witnesses are called, what is allowed, what isn't allowed.

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Speaker 3: So her management as though saying her management of this

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Speaker 3: case is going to mean everything to how it unfolds

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Speaker 3: and ultimately how it resolves.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I think one of the more interesting nuggets from

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Speaker 4: Special Counsel Jack Smith's public remarks was his specific reference

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Speaker 4: to seeking a speedy trial.

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Speaker 1: My office will seek a speedy trial in this matter

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Speaker 1: consistent with the public interest and the rights of the accused.

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Speaker 1: We very much look forward to presenting our case to

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Speaker 1: a jury of citizens in the Southern District of Florida.

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Speaker 4: That means that the government wants to move this along

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Speaker 4: as fast as possible. That's not always something that you

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Speaker 4: hear invoked in an announcement of charges like that. That

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Speaker 4: felt like a very deliberate statement. You know that they

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Speaker 4: were going to fight any effort to not get this

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Speaker 4: to trial as quickly as possible. You know, Donald Trump

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Speaker 4: is not a typical defendant, and strategy for his team

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Speaker 4: historically has been to try and drag things out, to

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Speaker 4: delay them, to not get to a resolution, whatever that

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Speaker 4: might be, you know, to push that out as far

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Speaker 4: as possible. So you know, the big question is going

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Speaker 4: to be if he files ex motion to dismiss the case,

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Speaker 4: what kind of schedule is she going to set. That's

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Speaker 4: all in her discretion and there is really nothing the

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Speaker 4: government can do about that. While that's unfolding.

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Speaker 2: As you say, Trump's legal strategy in all kinds of

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Speaker 2: cases for many decades has been to try to run

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Speaker 2: out the clock. As we were talking came about earlier.

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Speaker 2: If he's able to delay and delay and delay past

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Speaker 2: the next election, that could be in his benefit if

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Speaker 2: a Republican, including himself, were re elected.

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Speaker 3: That's why the timing is critical, because if the Justice

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Speaker 3: Department can push for conviction before the election, that's a

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Speaker 3: whole other scenario. Then, as you said, if it runs out,

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Speaker 3: and to the point about the delay tactic, the other

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Speaker 3: reason for the Justice Department to bring the case in

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Speaker 3: Florida was to head off a venue fight, which could

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Speaker 3: have had the effect of really dragging this out, and

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Speaker 3: so if it had come in Washington, the defense could

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Speaker 3: have filed a motion to move it to Florida. They

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Speaker 3: could have argued this is the wrong venue for these charges,

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Speaker 3: and that could have really been a very time consuming process, Zoe.

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Speaker 2: As we were talking about earlier, this evidence from Trump's

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Speaker 2: own lawyers is very important, but Trump's current lawyers will

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Speaker 2: try to fight the admissibility of that because of attorney

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Speaker 2: client privilege. Could judge can and disqualify that entire body

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Speaker 2: of evidence.

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Speaker 4: Anything is possible, you know. Talking to my sources, it

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Speaker 4: sounds like emotion to suppress evidence is very much under

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Speaker 4: consideration as far as early defense strategies, and that the

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Speaker 4: recording and notes from his attorney, Evan Corkoran are very

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Speaker 4: likely to be a subject of that. You know. Just

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Speaker 4: because judges in Washington ruled in favor of the government

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Speaker 4: on being able to pierce that privilege and get those

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Speaker 4: notes and get him before a grand jury, that doesn't

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Speaker 4: preclude the defense from trying to bring that up again.

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Speaker 4: Now that the case has been indicted. It's a very

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Speaker 4: different context in an indictment situation versus pre indictment in

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Speaker 4: the investigation, So they can try to get another bite

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Speaker 4: of that apple. You know the fact that it's in

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Speaker 4: another district. Even though Trump and Evan Corkren lost that

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Speaker 4: fight both in the district court in Washington and at

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Speaker 4: the appeals court level, that DC Circuit decision is not

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Speaker 4: binding on a judge in Florida in the same way

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Speaker 4: it would be binding and far more important if the

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Speaker 4: case was in Washington in that same circuit. So you

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Speaker 4: know they could try again in Florida. They go up

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Speaker 4: to the Eleventh Circuit. You know, it's just a different

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Speaker 4: venue that lets them try again to get that tossed out.

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Speaker 2: Okay, So Sarah Trump walked into a courtroom today. What

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Speaker 2: is the timeline from here? What should we be watching

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Speaker 2: for in the weeks and months ahead.

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Speaker 3: Well, first, he turns himself into the US Marshals and

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Speaker 3: he's booked and fingerprinted and all the things that a

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Speaker 3: defendant would go through. Then he goes to the arrangement

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Speaker 3: where he enters his plea. We assume that's going to

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Speaker 3: be a not guilty place, since he's widely said that

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Speaker 3: he didn't do anything wrong. And then it will go

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Speaker 3: to the judge to set a trial date and set

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Speaker 3: a schedule for the trial, we'll.

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Speaker 4: Get a sense of the early timeline. Something that I'll

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Speaker 4: be listening for is whether there's any discussion of motions

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Speaker 4: and legal proceedings related to the u of classified information

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Speaker 4: in this case. That's another area where we could see

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Speaker 4: delays built into just because the case involves classified information

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Speaker 4: that is treated differently, and if folks need to get

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Speaker 4: security clearance to see the discovery, that's something that could

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Speaker 4: take time. The question is the classified information in these documents,

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Speaker 4: you know, is that still related to active intelligence operations,

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Speaker 4: in which case there's going to be special procedures in

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Speaker 4: place to protect that, or did they burn all of

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Speaker 4: those intelligence programs and now they're just fair game to

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Speaker 4: show a jury and the public, in which case there's

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Speaker 4: no delay. But that's something that has held up other

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Speaker 4: classified documents prosecutions in the past.

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Speaker 2: When we come back the latest on the other Trump investigations, Zoe,

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Speaker 2: the classified documents case is only one of the cases

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Speaker 2: that the prosecutor, Jack Smith, is looking at. Can you

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Speaker 2: talk about the other big one?

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Speaker 4: That's right, Jack Smith's team is also still exploring and

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Speaker 4: this is a really nationwide investigation into how Trump and

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Speaker 4: his supporters and his allies, the steps they took to

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Speaker 4: try to overturn the results of the twenty twenty presidential election.

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Speaker 4: They're exploring different angles fundraising, what happened on the ground

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Speaker 4: in different states, and that is ongoing. There are witnesses

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Speaker 4: that are still set to come into the grand jury

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Speaker 4: over the summer. There's no indication that's wrapping up. And

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Speaker 4: that is another investigation that carries the risk of more

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Speaker 4: federal felony crimes, so, you know, to be continued, and.

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Speaker 2: Can you remind us specifically what are they investigating about

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Speaker 2: Trump's possible responsibility for what heaven on January sixth.

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Speaker 3: One of the key questions they're looking at is whether

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Speaker 3: his comments were directly responsible for inciting the mob to

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Speaker 3: violence that stormed the Capitol on January sixth.

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Speaker 4: And there are so many threads that they've been pulling

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Speaker 4: of other potential crimes. You know, lately, we got some

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Speaker 4: court documents unsealed that suggest they're looking at whether he

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Speaker 4: illegally tried to coerce former Vice President Mike Pence into

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Speaker 4: taking action on January sixth, which is what got Mike

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Speaker 4: Pence before the grand jury. They're looking at how they

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Speaker 4: raised money from his supporters across the country. You know,

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Speaker 4: whether there was potentially any fraud there, you know, looking

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Speaker 4: at representations that were made to judges in battleground states

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Speaker 4: in the election contests. You know, did he incite the insurrection,

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Speaker 4: did he try to obstruct Congress? Was there fraud? We

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Speaker 4: don't really have a sense yet of what they're narrowing in.

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Speaker 2: On and Sarah. Aside from those two cases, there is

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Speaker 2: still another very important investigation going on in Georgia.

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Speaker 3: That is right, and the attention will probably shift next

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Speaker 3: to that case. This is Fulton County, Georgia. The prosecutor's

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Speaker 3: Fannie Willis, and she is looking at the efforts by

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Speaker 3: Trump and his supporters and his allies to change the

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Speaker 3: result in Georgia, and specifically the quote perfect phone call

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Speaker 3: where Trump called the Secretary of State Brad Rafensberger and

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Speaker 3: urged him to find eleven thousand plus votes to change

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Speaker 3: the outcome of the election.

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Speaker 5: Look, all I want to do is this. I just

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Speaker 5: want to find eleven seven and eighty votes, which is

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Speaker 5: one more that we have because we won the state.

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Speaker 3: And Fani has already indicated that August is the period

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Speaker 3: of time we should be watching. She has sent a

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Speaker 3: letter to security services in Georgia asking them for their plans.

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Speaker 3: She has let her staff know that they will be

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Speaker 3: able to work remotely in that period. So that is

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Speaker 3: signaling to everyone to expect charges coming from her office

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Speaker 3: US in that time period.

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Speaker 4: And in Georgia. You know, we recently got another clue

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Speaker 4: that the investigation there is is not only moving ahead,

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Speaker 4: but is really focusing on the high level players, which

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Speaker 4: is that the elector sort of the so called fake

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Speaker 4: electors who signed the certification saying Trump won the state

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Speaker 4: that a number of them have been granted immunity. And

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Speaker 4: so you know, normally you would expect prosecutors to sort

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Speaker 4: of start at the bottom with lower level folks to

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Speaker 4: build a case up. And if they're granting immunity to

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Speaker 4: those types of figures in an investigation, it definitely signals

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Speaker 4: that they have you know, they're not going to get charged.

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Speaker 4: And so who was on the next level, who were

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Speaker 4: on those higher runs of the latter That's where we

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00:25:43,560 --> 00:25:48,359
Speaker 4: could potentially see other you know, boldface names come into play.

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00:25:48,520 --> 00:25:51,720
Speaker 4: You know, if it is a racketeering conspiracy type case.

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00:25:51,840 --> 00:25:55,600
Speaker 4: We know that Rudy Giuliani, former New York city mayor

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00:25:55,640 --> 00:25:59,200
Speaker 4: and US attorney who was involved in the election contest,

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00:25:59,280 --> 00:26:03,440
Speaker 4: that he was notified that he is potentially a target

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00:26:03,680 --> 00:26:08,480
Speaker 4: in that Georgia investigation, and you know state officials in Georgia.

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00:26:08,600 --> 00:26:11,560
Speaker 4: If there is some sort of broad racketeering conspiracy case,

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00:26:11,600 --> 00:26:14,640
Speaker 4: which is something that Fannie Willis's office has been known

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00:26:14,680 --> 00:26:17,760
Speaker 4: for in the past, you know, that could really wrap

448
00:26:17,800 --> 00:26:22,280
Speaker 4: in a lot of key players, not just Donald Trump,

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00:26:22,520 --> 00:26:26,480
Speaker 4: but make this a really sprawling, pretty extraordinary case in its.

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00:26:26,400 --> 00:26:29,720
Speaker 2: Own right, Zoe's Sarah. We're obviously heading into a pretty

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00:26:30,000 --> 00:26:33,600
Speaker 2: busy summer of legal battles for Donald Trump. Is there

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00:26:33,640 --> 00:26:35,679
Speaker 2: a possibility we're going to see him just ping ponging

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00:26:35,680 --> 00:26:37,040
Speaker 2: from courtroom to courtroom.

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Speaker 3: That is absolutely a possibility. And not only ping ponging

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00:26:41,040 --> 00:26:43,760
Speaker 3: from court hearing to court hearing, but ping ponging between

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00:26:43,880 --> 00:26:49,480
Speaker 3: court hearings and primaries and election speeches and rallies. I mean,

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00:26:49,600 --> 00:26:53,000
Speaker 3: Donald Trump is really defending himself on so many fronts.

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00:26:53,320 --> 00:26:56,159
Speaker 3: In addition to the case we are talking about, we

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Speaker 3: have the case in New York over the hush money payments.

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00:26:58,840 --> 00:27:02,320
Speaker 3: There are multiple civil cases, so he has got a

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00:27:02,359 --> 00:27:03,160
Speaker 3: lot on his plate.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, and you know, in criminal cases where the defendant

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00:27:07,240 --> 00:27:10,240
Speaker 4: is released pre trial, which we expect to happen here.

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00:27:10,400 --> 00:27:13,600
Speaker 4: He can waive appearances, and we've seen that before, and

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00:27:13,840 --> 00:27:15,800
Speaker 4: you know, I think a judge is going to not

466
00:27:15,920 --> 00:27:18,760
Speaker 4: stand in the way, assuming the government has no opposition

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00:27:18,920 --> 00:27:21,600
Speaker 4: to Trump's lawyers saying, you know, our client is running

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00:27:21,640 --> 00:27:23,840
Speaker 4: for president and is not going to be here for

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00:27:24,000 --> 00:27:28,760
Speaker 4: this status hearing number ten to talk about discovery issues.

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00:27:28,800 --> 00:27:32,080
Speaker 4: He doesn't need to be in every courtroom for every hearing,

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00:27:32,160 --> 00:27:34,760
Speaker 4: even when you know motions are being argued. There are

472
00:27:34,800 --> 00:27:38,520
Speaker 4: ways to avoid that, but as it starts getting closer

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00:27:38,520 --> 00:27:40,800
Speaker 4: to a trial, and certainly at a trial, that's going

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00:27:40,840 --> 00:27:44,119
Speaker 4: to be much harder for him to avoid. And judges

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00:27:44,119 --> 00:27:47,400
Speaker 4: are going to be mindful of their colleagues and other jurisdictions.

476
00:27:47,400 --> 00:27:51,040
Speaker 4: They're not going to double schedule anyone. And the justice system,

477
00:27:51,600 --> 00:27:53,439
Speaker 4: at least the way it's supposed to work, is to

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00:27:53,480 --> 00:27:56,560
Speaker 4: protect the rights of the defendant. So if his lawyers say,

479
00:27:56,680 --> 00:27:59,560
Speaker 4: you know, we need our client available to work on

480
00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:04,240
Speaker 4: defense issues related to New York, so Judge Cannon and Florida,

481
00:28:04,280 --> 00:28:07,520
Speaker 4: we need more time to respond to the motion here.

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00:28:07,880 --> 00:28:11,399
Speaker 4: Judges are generally going to side with the defense to

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00:28:11,480 --> 00:28:15,000
Speaker 4: make sure there's no future allegation that their ability to

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00:28:15,080 --> 00:28:18,040
Speaker 4: present a defense was impeded. So judges are going to

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00:28:18,040 --> 00:28:21,000
Speaker 4: be very sensitive to that, and when there are multiple cases,

486
00:28:21,160 --> 00:28:24,240
Speaker 4: that's where you see the can getting kicked down the road,

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00:28:24,320 --> 00:28:27,200
Speaker 4: especially Zoe Sarah.

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Speaker 2: Thanks so much for coming on the.

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Speaker 4: Show, Thanks for having us, Thanks for having.

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Speaker 2: Us, Thanks for listening to us Here at The Big Take.

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Speaker 2: It's a daily podcast from Bloomberg and iHeartRadio. For more

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Speaker 2: shows from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or

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Speaker 2: wherever you listen, and we'd love to hear from you.

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00:28:44,280 --> 00:28:47,640
Speaker 2: Email us questions or comments to Big Take at Bloomberg

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Speaker 2: dot net. The supervising producer of The Big Take and

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00:28:50,760 --> 00:28:54,560
Speaker 2: the producer of this episode is Vicky Bergalina. Our senior

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00:28:54,600 --> 00:28:57,959
Speaker 2: producer is Catherine Fink. Our original music was composed by

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00:28:58,040 --> 00:29:01,240
Speaker 2: Leo Sidrin. I'm wes Kasova. We'll be back tomorrow with

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Speaker 2: another Big Take.