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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast, your guide to

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Speaker 1: the White Tail Woods, presented by First Light, creating proven

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Speaker 1: versatile hunting apparel for the stand, saddle or blind. First

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Speaker 1: Light Go Farther, Stay Longer, and now your host, Mark Kenyon.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast. This week on

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Speaker 2: the show, I'm joined by doctor Marcus Lashley to discuss

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Speaker 2: the current concerning state of wild turkeys in North America

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Speaker 2: and what we can do to help slow down recent declines.

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Speaker 2: All right, welcome back to the Wired to Hunt podcast,

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Speaker 2: brought to you by First Light and their Camera for

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Speaker 2: Conservation Initiative. And today we're taking a break from our

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Speaker 2: series that we kicked off last week, which is about

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Speaker 2: the culture of hunting, and instead we are going to

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Speaker 2: be discussing a different topic, which is Turkey's We're talking

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Speaker 2: turkey today because it is Turkey Week here at Mediator

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Speaker 2: and across all the media to platforms. That means anywhere

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Speaker 2: return it's gonna be turkey. Go to the media to

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Speaker 2: podcast turkeys, Go to the media to YouTube channel turkeys.

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Speaker 2: Go to the media website. You're gonna see turkey hunt articles.

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Speaker 2: You can see turkey hunting or not Turkey hunting recipes,

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Speaker 2: but turkey recipes. You're gonna see a turkey calling contest actually, which,

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Speaker 2: by the way, if I am somehow still in the

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Speaker 2: turkey calling contest, it is a miracle and you should

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Speaker 2: vote for me just because of the novelty of somebody

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Speaker 2: like me being in a turkey calling contest and actually

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Speaker 2: winning it.

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Speaker 3: I am not qualified.

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Speaker 2: But all this is going on when it comes to

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Speaker 2: the Mediator Turkey week, and that means also here at

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Speaker 2: the wire Hunt podcast, we're talking turkeys. So today we're

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Speaker 2: talking turkeys. In all this week, you probably have hopefully

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Speaker 2: seen Foundations episodes with turkey hunting, know how Tony's been

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Speaker 2: talking about how to kill more turkeys, And today we're

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Speaker 2: not gonna necessarily talk about something will help you kill.

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Speaker 3: More turkeys in the short term, but we are going

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Speaker 3: to be.

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Speaker 2: Discussing something that should help you kill more turkeys in

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Speaker 2: the long term. And that's because we're talking turkey conservation.

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Speaker 2: There has been a concerning decline in turkey numbers in

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Speaker 2: many many states across the country in recent years and

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Speaker 2: has caused a whole lot of buzz about what's going on.

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Speaker 2: And so today I'm joined with from Joined by doctor

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Speaker 2: Marcus Lashley of the University of Florida to discuss that

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Speaker 2: very thing. What exactly is the state of turkeys today

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Speaker 2: in the country, What kind of declines are we talking about?

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Speaker 2: And then why are we seeing these declines?

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Speaker 3: What's happening here?

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Speaker 2: What's leading to many states seeing diminishing turkey populations? Is

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Speaker 2: this because of habitat? Is this because of predators? Is

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Speaker 2: this because of hunting pressure and things that we're doing.

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Speaker 2: Is there something else going on? What the heck is

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Speaker 2: happening that is causing what was at one point a

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Speaker 2: huge success story when we talked about the restoration of

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Speaker 2: wild turkeys. Why is it all of a sudden becoming

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Speaker 2: a story of concern, a story of worry. That's what

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Speaker 2: I want to discuss with doctor Marcus Lashley today. And

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Speaker 2: he's the guy to talk to because he is a

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Speaker 2: wildlife biologist himself and he is involved in a number

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Speaker 2: of turkey related studies. He's also a tremendous communicator about

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Speaker 2: these issues because he is the host of the Wild

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Speaker 2: Turkey Science podcast, in which himself and a co host

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Speaker 2: have been discussing this very topic with a number of

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Speaker 2: different subject experts over the last year and really been

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Speaker 2: you know, I think covering this better than anybody else.

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Speaker 2: And he is also the creator of the University of

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Speaker 2: Florida Deer Lab YouTube channel that is an acronym deer

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Speaker 2: deer that stands for disturbance, Psychology and ecological restoration. And

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Speaker 2: he's also found on Instagram at doctor Disturbance and all

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Speaker 2: of this is you know, these are all different places

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Speaker 2: to find his content related to wildlife biology, the wildlife

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Speaker 2: habitat improvement, turkey science, deer science. He was on the

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Speaker 2: podcast years ago where we talked about wildlife habitats, specifically

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Speaker 2: more deer habitat, but today turkeys is the main topic.

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Speaker 2: Marcus has got a lot to share. He helps give

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Speaker 2: us some solid answers, points us in the right direction

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Speaker 2: on some different questions and concerns, and gives us some

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Speaker 2: real substantial ideas about how we can make a difference

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Speaker 2: moving forward, to make sure that there are thunder chickens

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Speaker 2: around to chase for many more string springs to come,

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Speaker 2: because I know that's what I want and I'm pretty

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Speaker 2: sure that's what you want to The turkeys are really cool,

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Speaker 2: they taste really good, and I want to keep them

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Speaker 2: around out there. And it's not gonna be a guaranteed

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Speaker 2: thing unless we are part of the solution, if we

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Speaker 2: can be part of making sure the conditions on the

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Speaker 2: ground are those the turkeys need moving forward. So that's

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Speaker 2: the game plan for today's episode. I want to give

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Speaker 2: you guys one more quick heads up before we get

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Speaker 2: into the show with Mark, and that is related to

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Speaker 2: the Meat Eater Live Tour. We've got another round of

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Speaker 2: Meet Eater Live events coming up here in April, late April,

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Speaker 2: I believe it's starting, and this is gonna be a

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Speaker 2: more Western coast, Rocky Mountain West tour, So the events

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Speaker 2: will be kicking off on let me get these dates

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Speaker 2: correct here for it. April twenty third is the first

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Speaker 2: show and they're gonna run all the way through May fifth,

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Speaker 2: and there are gonna be stops in places like Mesa, Arizona,

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Speaker 2: San Diego, Anaheim, and Sacramento, California.

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Speaker 3: We got a Salt Lake.

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Speaker 2: One, we got a Boise one, Missoula, Montana, Spokane, Portland,

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Speaker 2: and Tacoma, Washington. You can get your tickets, you can

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Speaker 2: learn more anything you need to know over at the

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Speaker 2: meat eater dot com slash events. So there's your heads up,

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Speaker 2: and now let's get to our show with doctor Marcus Lashly.

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Speaker 2: All right, here with me now on the line is

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Speaker 2: doctor Marcus Lashly. Marcus, thanks for joining me.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, happy, happy to be here. I appreciate it. Mark,

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Speaker 4: thanks for the invite.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's been I should have went back and seen,

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Speaker 2: but it's been a good number of years since I've

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Speaker 2: had you on the show. Last I think when I

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Speaker 2: talked to you last on the podcast was when the

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Speaker 2: mineral stump thing was just kind of hitting the ground

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Speaker 2: and people were really talking about that, and there's a

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Speaker 2: lot of interest in that. I remember we had some

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Speaker 2: really interesting conversations. Aroun it came to to deer habitat.

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Speaker 2: But you're also a Turkey guy, which makes you the

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Speaker 2: perfect guest for us today here because here on Mediator

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Speaker 2: it's Turkey Week across everything Mediator. This week we're celebrating turkeys, gobblers,

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Speaker 2: all the good stuff they bring with them. And uh,

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Speaker 2: you're down there in Florida these days, so I gotta ask.

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Speaker 2: First off, I know some seasons are open there in Florida.

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Speaker 2: Have you been out turkey yet?

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Speaker 4: Well, Uh no, it's I didn't get drawn in several

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Speaker 4: places that I put in for down to the South season,

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Speaker 4: and it's access is down there is pretty tough, even

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Speaker 4: you know, even though I work with turkeys, it's still

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Speaker 4: tough for me. But I also during the early season,

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Speaker 4: in particular, for example, this morning, I am basically hunting

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Speaker 4: turkeys because I have one going research where we're tagging

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Speaker 4: turkeys and part of our research we're actually trying to

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Speaker 4: get observations of them in the field. So essentially hunting

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Speaker 4: turkeys and trying to keep up with them and not

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Speaker 4: be known to them, and that, as you might imagine,

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Speaker 4: it is quite fun.

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Speaker 2: You know.

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Speaker 4: It's kind of like catch and release hunting, you know,

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Speaker 4: it's it's I'm getting to fulfill that same desire and

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Speaker 4: and also get some really cool data on turkeys at

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Speaker 4: the same time.

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Speaker 3: So that's great. That's uh.

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Speaker 2: I've started to do that with my sons. So I'll

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Speaker 2: take my boys prior to turkey season opening up, and

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Speaker 2: it's just like turkey hunting with them. We just try

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Speaker 2: to call on a bird for them to get excited,

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Speaker 2: and uh, that's a blast. And one year, my son,

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Speaker 2: when he was I think three, we we were out

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Speaker 2: and he was carrying on an umbrella with him for

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Speaker 2: some reason and pretending and it was a gun, and

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Speaker 2: so we actually called in three gobblers into range and

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Speaker 2: he held up his little pretend umbrella gun and like

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Speaker 2: talked it all through with them. He helped perfectly. Still,

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Speaker 2: and those gobblers came in a range. He said, Dad,

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Speaker 2: can I take him?

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Speaker 4: Now?

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Speaker 3: I'm like, yeah, go for it. He goes.

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Speaker 2: It was the best turkey out of my life.

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Speaker 3: So I get the enjoyment.

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Speaker 4: They can never turn back now exactly, you've already you've

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Speaker 4: already put him on that path.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's it's good stuff.

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Speaker 2: So, uh So these studies that you're working on right

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Speaker 2: now in which you're observing and trying to you know,

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Speaker 2: have those syps of interactions. What's what are you in

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Speaker 2: particular looking at of that study.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, it's actually a multifaceted study and we have various

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Speaker 4: things going on, but in particular we so we're tagging

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Speaker 4: hens and gobblers on a few study areas. The primary

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Speaker 4: goal actually the project is just to get baseline vital

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Speaker 4: rate information, so like, you know, the typical things that

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Speaker 4: people are seeing coming out, you know, across all these

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Speaker 4: different projects in different states are the hen survival, nesting

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Speaker 4: success Poult rearing success and the reason that we focus

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Speaker 4: on those is because it allows us to project what

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Speaker 4: populations are doing, because those are the important vital rates.

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Speaker 4: But there are some other interesting things going on in

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Speaker 4: the Turkey world related to males. And you know, typically

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Speaker 4: when we model populations, we don't even include the mail

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Speaker 4: in it, especially when you know something like Turkey's or

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Speaker 4: deer where one male can potentially breed many females. It's

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Speaker 4: pretty common that we would project a population the male

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Speaker 4: survival isn't even incorporated. So you know, some of the

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Speaker 4: work that we're doing now we're trying to to get

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Speaker 4: that side of the coin as well, I guess with

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Speaker 4: with male survival and behavior, and you know, I have

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Speaker 4: a strong interest just inherently with Turkey behavior. So that's

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Speaker 4: what we're trying to document things that the gobblers that

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Speaker 4: we have tagged are doing just on a daily basis,

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Speaker 4: and trying to you know, get almost like a personality

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Speaker 4: in print of what these individuals are acting like. And

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Speaker 4: you know, we we have many things planned and I

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Speaker 4: don't know where it will go. It really is funding

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Speaker 4: dependent and things. But that's sort of like a passion

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Speaker 4: project for me as I'm trying to get more of

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Speaker 4: an idea of what the identity of the individual is,

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Speaker 4: and then we can start to relate his survival and

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Speaker 4: you know how his habitat use on the landscape is

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Speaker 4: a function of you know, his personality, which even when

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Speaker 4: you capture him, you can tell like the individuals or

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Speaker 4: individuals just like people. You know.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, it's so funny.

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Speaker 2: We talk about that so often with deer these days,

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Speaker 2: but I've never heard that discuss with turkeys. Is that

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Speaker 2: something that's been studied before in that kind of way.

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Speaker 4: That what we're doing is different than some of the

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Speaker 4: previous work. But there certainly has been a lot of

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Speaker 4: behavioral work, and they have looked at it from various things.

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Speaker 4: Some of it is just basic biology trying to understand

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Speaker 4: what the mating system is like. Some of it is

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Speaker 4: looking at what traits males like the snood or the

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Speaker 4: fan or the airdest sence, you know, those kinds of

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Speaker 4: traits how females select males for to mate with. Uh So,

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Speaker 4: there's been a fair amount of behavioral work, but not

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Speaker 4: really looking at it from a from a an individualism standpoint.

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Speaker 4: I don't know what the right word for it. That

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Speaker 4: is but like the personality of them and how that's

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Speaker 4: translating into their success in their day to day life

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Speaker 4: has not been looked at very much, and I thought

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Speaker 4: it would be interesting. It's sort of a tack onto

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Speaker 4: the ongoing project so that we can get some data

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Speaker 4: and try to figure out is this worth some worth

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Speaker 4: pursuing further.

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Speaker 3: Hmhmm. That's fascinating.

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Speaker 2: So is it fair to say that there has been

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Speaker 2: a significant influx of attention and or funding to turkey

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Speaker 2: research in the last few years?

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Speaker 4: I would I would say that's an understatement. Yeah, right now.

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Speaker 4: And I've heard some of the you know, the Turkey

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Speaker 4: researchers that have been around the longest of our currently

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Speaker 4: active turkey researchers, they say the same thing. Right now,

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Speaker 4: we have more ongoing turkey research across the range of

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Speaker 4: turkeys than ever has been the case and the history

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Speaker 4: of turkey research. Wow, And it's not even close. So

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Speaker 4: we have ongoing research programs and I don't know how

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Speaker 4: many states, but it's definitely more than thirty. So you know,

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Speaker 4: wherever your listener, you know, whoever you are, wherever you're from,

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Speaker 4: you probably have an active project going going right now

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Speaker 4: in your state. In your backyard.

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Speaker 3: Wow, So.

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Speaker 2: Turkeys the story of turkeys in North America. Maybe most

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Speaker 2: people don't know this story. Could you give our listeners

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Speaker 2: the like the one minute cliff notes version of how

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Speaker 2: we got of how we got to hear today? Maybe

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Speaker 2: a couple of minute story of how we got to where.

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Speaker 4: We are today.

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Speaker 3: I don't know.

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Speaker 2: But but what I really want to get at is,

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Speaker 2: so I wanted that quick cliff note of how we got.

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Speaker 3: To where we are today.

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Speaker 2: But then part two of my question then would be

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Speaker 2: I would like to get your take on what our

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Speaker 2: situation is today as far as a you know, if

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Speaker 2: if this was like a physical with the doctor and

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Speaker 2: you sat down with the doctor and he's he's taking

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Speaker 2: a look, and say, what's the health our health situation

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Speaker 2: right here? Where do things stand? There's there's a lot

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Speaker 2: of buzz within the world of turkeys right now. There's

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Speaker 2: a lot of articles popping up here and there. There's

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Speaker 2: definitely red flags being waived. Even the average deer hunter,

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Speaker 2: I think is aware of that, but I'm not sure

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Speaker 2: they understand the detail. So, so could you give me

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Speaker 2: the quick update of how we got here? And then

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Speaker 2: what is here?

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Speaker 4: Yeah? Well, and honestly, is it's kind of remarkable that

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Speaker 4: we have turkeys to worry about, to be honest with you,

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Speaker 4: when we when you know, through the eighteen hundreds, we

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Speaker 4: were we kind of had this perception that wildlife or

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Speaker 4: an inexhaustible resource, and this idea that we could you know,

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Speaker 4: over harvest them or you know, market hunting could lead

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Speaker 4: to declines, or you know, anything like that was even possible.

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Speaker 4: It was kind of, you know, a weird thought back

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Speaker 4: in those days. Now, you know, it's hard to believe that,

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Speaker 4: but that, you know, it's kind of how it was portrayed,

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Speaker 4: and we kind of get on the brink of extinction

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Speaker 4: for quite a few species, turkeys being one of them.

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Speaker 4: We had you know, almost extirpated them from a large

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Speaker 4: portion of their range, and that along with several other species,

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Speaker 4: some of which we didn't save, like the passenger pigeon.

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Speaker 4: It led to a seer trees of legislative acts in

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Speaker 4: the United States and led to the North American model

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Speaker 4: for wildlife management that has been extremely successful not only

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Speaker 4: in establishing sustainable use but also recovering a lot of species.

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Speaker 4: It also built financial pillars that fund that research or

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Speaker 4: research and conservation, and a lot of that is tads

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Speaker 4: directly to hunting. So we have hunting licenses, we have

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Speaker 4: bag limits, we have a duck stamp, we have you know,

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Speaker 4: financial pillars associated with hunting. The Pittman Robertson Act as

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Speaker 4: an excise tax on hunting related products that then goes

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Speaker 4: back into the conservation of hunted species. But what that

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Speaker 4: usually entails is management of systems that then benefit many

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Speaker 4: of the non game. So the fact of the matter

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Speaker 4: is the reason we have turkeys now is because we

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Speaker 4: almost lost them along with some other species, and that

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Speaker 4: wasn't acceptable to people, you know, that loved the resource,

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Speaker 4: and it was kind of led us to this legislation,

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Speaker 4: this really successful model, and for turkeys in particular, we

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Speaker 4: started restocking them pretty aggressively. We saw the birth of

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Speaker 4: the National Wild Turkey Federation that was focused on restocking

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Speaker 4: turkeys across the range. And we sort of went through

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Speaker 4: this phase, especially in the seventies and eighties and nineties,

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Speaker 4: where we had this almost exponential growth in populations across

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Speaker 4: the range, especially in the easterns, but in much of

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Speaker 4: the range of wild turkeys, and that kind of got

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Speaker 4: us to where we are now, where we had historic

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Speaker 4: levels of turkeys in like the two thousand in most

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Speaker 4: places at vary some based on where you're at, but

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Speaker 4: we had these really high populations and then we started

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Speaker 4: to see some symptoms of decline. And that's really led

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Speaker 4: us to now where people know what the heyday with

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Speaker 4: turkeys when they were, you know, super abundant across the landscape.

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Speaker 4: And frankly, I understand why it is not acceptable for

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Speaker 4: them to be rare. I mean, it's not acceptable for me,

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Speaker 4: as a turkey hunter to go back. You know, I

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Speaker 4: don't want to give up any ground. I want them

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Speaker 4: to be abundant in it, you know, to to hear

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Speaker 4: many gobels every time I go hunting. You know, I understand.

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Speaker 4: But we have a really passionate group of people that

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Speaker 4: you know, are concerned because there were some there's some

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Speaker 4: indicators of decline, especially in the range of easterns.

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Speaker 2: So these declines, what to what degree of decline are

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Speaker 2: we actually seeing? Can you put put some numbers on it.

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Speaker 2: I've seen some pretty high numbers at state by state level.

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Speaker 4: Can you say that depends a lot on where you're

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Speaker 4: talking about. Some states are seeing inclines, some states are

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Speaker 4: relatively stable and others are seeing some declines that usually

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Speaker 4: is a over the last fifteen or twenty years. It's

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Speaker 4: somewhere in the neighborhood of ten percent to twenty five percent,

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Speaker 4: maybe on the upper end, So you know this slow

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Speaker 4: trend of decline over time. Mississippi is a good example

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Speaker 4: where I think they kind of from their peak declined

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Speaker 4: to maybe twenty percent lower of that peak, and then

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Speaker 4: it's been relatively stable for about a decade now. So

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Speaker 4: it varies a lot. One thing that seems to be

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Speaker 4: evident is the trend in populations in many places seem

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Speaker 4: to be on a timeline that's very similar to when

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Speaker 4: they were restocked. So that important implication. So for example,

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Speaker 4: some states like Mississippi were among the first to be restocked,

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Speaker 4: and we see about a pattern where's twenty twenty five

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Speaker 4: thirty years later where we hit this peak and then

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Speaker 4: we start to see this decline and now Mississippi is

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Speaker 4: relatively stable. Other states like North Carolina or a couple

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Speaker 4: of the other ones that were really late in that

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Speaker 4: restocking where that was happening, like in North Carolina, I

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Speaker 4: think it was all the way into the early two thousands.

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Speaker 4: They're still inclining based on the state level metrics.

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Speaker 3: So what do we what do.

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Speaker 2: We read into that is that? Is this something that

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Speaker 2: that is that these declines are more of like a

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Speaker 2: recalib like a recalibration or a resetting equilibrium, like the

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Speaker 2: initial stocking efforts happened, the population booms, and then it's

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Speaker 2: maybe too high for the habitat and then it's kind

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Speaker 2: of retreating back to what that natural level should be.

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Speaker 2: Is that was happening or something else.

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Speaker 4: So that's a great question. Uh. The initial paper that

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Speaker 4: tried to address that, uh, and it really wasn't connecting

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Speaker 4: it directly to the restocking dates. I don't think they

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Speaker 4: had that in the paper. But Mike Byrne was working

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Speaker 4: with Mike Chamberlain and Brett Collier and a couple of

359
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Speaker 4: other scientists and they kind of looked at the broad

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Speaker 4: scale and they published a paper on density dependence and

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Speaker 4: that all that is is a fancy term to describe

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Speaker 4: what you just said. You kind of overshoot how many

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Speaker 4: turkeys can be carried sustainably, and then you see a

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Speaker 4: correction where density starts to negatively affect the individuals, you know,

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Speaker 4: maybe through competition for resources or something and you start

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Speaker 4: to see as you increase the number of adults, you

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Speaker 4: decrease the productivity of nest or pulse or survival of

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Speaker 4: the adults. So there's this negative relationship between density and production.

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Speaker 4: So that usually happens or we you know, we see

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Speaker 4: we I guess another way in ecology, we expect that

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Speaker 4: pattern when you have some sort of caring capacity relationship

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Speaker 4: that's that is affecting it. But the fact of the

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Speaker 4: matter is we have some competing hypotheses right now that

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Speaker 4: could all explain that pattern in different ways. So it

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Speaker 4: could be that we've overshot carrying capacity of habitat. But

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Speaker 4: what you would expect to happen in that case is

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Speaker 4: that it to relatively stabilize like you see in Mississippi,

378
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Speaker 4: where you know, sort of fluctuate around some number of

379
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Speaker 4: turkeys that can be carried. But a lot of the

380
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Speaker 4: states we're sort of seeing this slow decline. So instead

381
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Speaker 4: of it staying stable at that level, there's this decline.

382
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Speaker 4: So it could start to imagine some factors that could

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Speaker 4: play into that. Right, Well, we're developing habitat into you know,

384
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Speaker 4: infrastructure for people, right We're building houses, we're building developments

385
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Speaker 4: we're building roads, all those sorts of things. So the

386
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Speaker 4: amount of habitat available is declining, and it's doing that

387
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Speaker 4: more rapidly in some areas than other areas. But if

388
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Speaker 4: you imagine that relationship that was just talking about, as

389
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Speaker 4: you decrease amount of turkey habitat available, you should decrease

390
00:24:03,080 --> 00:24:08,000
Speaker 4: what that stable level should be over time. So that's one, uh,

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Speaker 4: one factor that has been brought up. Another factor that

392
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Speaker 4: has been brought up is, you know, we when we

393
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Speaker 4: had that incline in all all those turkeys, we also

394
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Speaker 4: had an incline and interest in hunting turkeys. And you

395
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Speaker 4: know that that's been proposed that maybe hunting has gotten

396
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Speaker 4: to some inflection point that starts to drive that same

397
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Speaker 4: sort of pattern where we'd see this steady decline because

398
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Speaker 4: the hunting, you know, the productivity of the populations is

399
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Speaker 4: not keeping up with the hunting pressure. The issue with

400
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Speaker 4: that that hypothesis is that if you look at the

401
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Speaker 4: harvest rates now and compare them to what they were historically,

402
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Speaker 4: they're the same. So that immediately tells me, Okay, there's

403
00:25:02,160 --> 00:25:05,359
Speaker 4: the only way that works is if hunting. You know,

404
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Speaker 4: about thirty percent of gobblers on average across studies. Usually

405
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Speaker 4: about thirty percent of gobblers get harvested each year. So

406
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Speaker 4: if that's a problem now and it wasn't, then why

407
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Speaker 4: And the reason that would be is because of productivity.

408
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Speaker 4: So it wouldn't be that hunting is causing a decline

409
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Speaker 4: in productivity. It would be that productivity is no longer

410
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Speaker 4: high enough to sustain that that level of harvest. So

411
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Speaker 4: that's one hypothesis. There's various people working on aspects of

412
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Speaker 4: that idea as well. And another one that's very popular

413
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Speaker 4: is that we have we don't have as many trappers anymore.

414
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Speaker 4: For trappers, and you know, as we declined our pressure

415
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Speaker 4: on thing, you know, things that eat nests in particular,

416
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Speaker 4: or eat turkeys just at any life stage. As we've

417
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Speaker 4: declined the pressure on those species, they've vinclined and become

418
00:26:01,640 --> 00:26:04,800
Speaker 4: more abundant. So people think that it's you know, blaming

419
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Speaker 4: on predators changes that that has some issues too. I

420
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Speaker 4: think it's really interesting to kind of unpack these things

421
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Speaker 4: because they're also not independent on one another. So, for example,

422
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Speaker 4: with the predator aspect, a real problem with that is,

423
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Speaker 4: first of all, we have some studies showing that you

424
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Speaker 4: can aggressively trap something like raccoons, and they can recover

425
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Speaker 4: from like a ninety percent decline in one season, so

426
00:26:38,680 --> 00:26:42,359
Speaker 4: that wouldn't be a slow process like that. You know,

427
00:26:42,400 --> 00:26:45,479
Speaker 4: we'd see an abrupt change in predation and that that

428
00:26:45,560 --> 00:26:49,439
Speaker 4: isn't what the data suggests. But that doesn't mean that

429
00:26:49,480 --> 00:26:53,360
Speaker 4: it couldn't be related to predators, because there's another thing happening.

430
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Speaker 4: As you degrade the quality of habitat for turkeys, you

431
00:26:58,240 --> 00:27:02,560
Speaker 4: increase the habitat quality simultaneously for several all of their predators,

432
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Speaker 4: particularly nest predators. So as habitat for nesting gets poorer,

433
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Speaker 4: habitat quality for nest predators gets better at the same time.

434
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Speaker 4: So you could you see how that could really affect

435
00:27:17,200 --> 00:27:19,840
Speaker 4: the role of the predator. And it's actually a habitat

436
00:27:19,880 --> 00:27:23,560
Speaker 4: problem in that case, because the habitat quality is declining

437
00:27:23,640 --> 00:27:27,920
Speaker 4: for your target species and inclining for the non target

438
00:27:27,960 --> 00:27:31,960
Speaker 4: and it's causing the predation problem. It's not the predator,

439
00:27:32,119 --> 00:27:35,879
Speaker 4: it's the habitat. But you have the same symptom, you know,

440
00:27:35,920 --> 00:27:39,840
Speaker 4: which is higher nest predation. So you know that's the

441
00:27:39,920 --> 00:27:42,040
Speaker 4: problem with this is we want to immediately fix it

442
00:27:42,080 --> 00:27:45,879
Speaker 4: by trapping predators when actually it's a symptom of bad habitat,

443
00:27:46,640 --> 00:27:51,320
Speaker 4: which most people don't want to hear that, but it's true. Yeah,

444
00:27:51,320 --> 00:27:54,520
Speaker 4: and then there's a disease factor that comes in that's

445
00:27:54,560 --> 00:27:57,560
Speaker 4: being postured. We have some new diseases that we didn't

446
00:27:57,600 --> 00:28:03,360
Speaker 4: know were things, some that LPDV we think got introduced

447
00:28:03,560 --> 00:28:08,400
Speaker 4: relatively recently from the poultry industry. You know, it's been

448
00:28:08,400 --> 00:28:12,960
Speaker 4: common in poultry, and we think maybe that's where it

449
00:28:13,000 --> 00:28:18,199
Speaker 4: came from. So there are hypotheses related to disease, but

450
00:28:18,440 --> 00:28:21,480
Speaker 4: the same thing is true. You know, if you change

451
00:28:21,760 --> 00:28:25,280
Speaker 4: habitat quality, it may make individuals more vulnerable to disease.

452
00:28:25,359 --> 00:28:30,840
Speaker 4: And we might see fluxes, you know, associated with populations

453
00:28:30,880 --> 00:28:33,320
Speaker 4: that are symptoms of some other problem. And that's what

454
00:28:33,640 --> 00:28:37,200
Speaker 4: really makes it difficult to figure out. You know, they're

455
00:28:37,240 --> 00:28:39,480
Speaker 4: all interrelated and it's hard to figure out which one

456
00:28:39,520 --> 00:28:42,120
Speaker 4: is actually the cause of what you see.

457
00:28:43,000 --> 00:28:43,400
Speaker 3: Yeah.

458
00:28:43,720 --> 00:28:48,800
Speaker 2: So, given that there's all these different factors at play,

459
00:28:49,960 --> 00:28:52,800
Speaker 2: and some of them may be compounding each other, how

460
00:28:52,840 --> 00:28:57,080
Speaker 2: would you how would you make sense of what's most

461
00:28:57,080 --> 00:29:00,000
Speaker 2: important or most impactful, Like, do any one of those

462
00:29:00,200 --> 00:29:03,800
Speaker 2: in your mind seem to stand out as the number.

463
00:29:03,520 --> 00:29:04,440
Speaker 3: One culprit or?

464
00:29:04,480 --> 00:29:07,440
Speaker 2: The most impactful of these different challenges that might be

465
00:29:07,480 --> 00:29:08,480
Speaker 2: facing turkeys right now.

466
00:29:09,600 --> 00:29:11,960
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's a good question. You know, a lot of

467
00:29:11,960 --> 00:29:18,720
Speaker 4: the work we are actively trying to quantify various parts

468
00:29:18,760 --> 00:29:24,120
Speaker 4: of this complex thing I've laid out for you. But

469
00:29:24,560 --> 00:29:29,560
Speaker 4: one thing that is very consistent, and I think it

470
00:29:29,640 --> 00:29:34,800
Speaker 4: explains a lot of what we're seeing and also is

471
00:29:34,920 --> 00:29:39,000
Speaker 4: probably one of the confounding factors in all cases is habitat.

472
00:29:39,880 --> 00:29:42,600
Speaker 4: And I know a lot of people roll their eyes

473
00:29:42,640 --> 00:29:47,680
Speaker 4: when they hear that, but when you look at particularly

474
00:29:47,760 --> 00:29:52,040
Speaker 4: in the South, but it applies elsewhere. If you look

475
00:29:52,080 --> 00:29:58,000
Speaker 4: at the landscape changes that have occurred, even in just

476
00:29:58,040 --> 00:30:01,920
Speaker 4: the last two or three decades. For example, we didn't

477
00:30:01,960 --> 00:30:07,000
Speaker 4: have round up ready crops until the mid nineties. That

478
00:30:07,200 --> 00:30:12,320
Speaker 4: was a substantial change in the landscape because agriculture got

479
00:30:12,360 --> 00:30:16,360
Speaker 4: way more efficient, right, so we could kill a lot

480
00:30:16,440 --> 00:30:20,760
Speaker 4: of the weeds in agricultural crops. Those weeds are the

481
00:30:20,800 --> 00:30:23,600
Speaker 4: same forbes that I'm trying to get people to promote.

482
00:30:23,640 --> 00:30:28,280
Speaker 4: When they promote early succession for turkeys or other species

483
00:30:28,320 --> 00:30:31,560
Speaker 4: that use it. We got really good at getting rid

484
00:30:31,560 --> 00:30:39,840
Speaker 4: of those. We've also had intensification of pine plantations and

485
00:30:40,040 --> 00:30:46,360
Speaker 4: a lot of those came to mature, I should say

486
00:30:46,360 --> 00:30:49,240
Speaker 4: that a different way. Many of those were the pine

487
00:30:49,240 --> 00:30:53,000
Speaker 4: plantations were started in the early nineties, and in the

488
00:30:53,040 --> 00:30:57,520
Speaker 4: South in particular, those would start reaching close canopy conditions

489
00:30:57,960 --> 00:31:03,000
Speaker 4: in the early two thousands. For a large swath of time,

490
00:31:03,360 --> 00:31:09,000
Speaker 4: we would have them be the least usable for turkeys.

491
00:31:09,760 --> 00:31:14,600
Speaker 4: We have also decreased the use of prescribed fire precipitously

492
00:31:17,120 --> 00:31:24,040
Speaker 4: over several many decades. Through the nineteen hundreds, we have

493
00:31:24,160 --> 00:31:28,480
Speaker 4: converted most of our early succession, this not in agriculture

494
00:31:28,760 --> 00:31:31,760
Speaker 4: to a non native pasture grass. In my part of

495
00:31:31,800 --> 00:31:34,640
Speaker 4: the world, that's primarily by haya. If you get up

496
00:31:34,680 --> 00:31:38,240
Speaker 4: into the mid South, that's fescue, it could be braham.

497
00:31:38,840 --> 00:31:42,040
Speaker 4: We've got, you know, all kinds of options depending on

498
00:31:42,080 --> 00:31:46,240
Speaker 4: where you're at. But we've had this really strong conversion

499
00:31:46,640 --> 00:31:52,600
Speaker 4: of areas that pulps would be using. And one thing

500
00:31:52,640 --> 00:31:58,040
Speaker 4: that's been really consistent in studies is that we usually

501
00:31:58,120 --> 00:32:02,880
Speaker 4: see a bottleneck on productivity of turkeys, particularly in that

502
00:32:02,960 --> 00:32:06,840
Speaker 4: first two weeks of the poltse life. They're really vulnerable.

503
00:32:07,000 --> 00:32:10,400
Speaker 4: They can't you know, when they're born, they don't have

504
00:32:10,520 --> 00:32:15,760
Speaker 4: their feathers yet, they're growing really fast. They're eating exclusively insects.

505
00:32:16,160 --> 00:32:19,200
Speaker 4: They're growing not just their skeleton but also their feathers,

506
00:32:19,920 --> 00:32:24,200
Speaker 4: and before they are they reach flight, they can't thermoregulate well,

507
00:32:24,520 --> 00:32:27,360
Speaker 4: so they can die from exposure. The community, the plant

508
00:32:27,360 --> 00:32:32,520
Speaker 4: community structure is critical to provide that you know, that

509
00:32:32,520 --> 00:32:37,280
Speaker 4: that buffer from the elements and predators and provide high

510
00:32:37,320 --> 00:32:42,120
Speaker 4: production of insects. You know, if you start looking at

511
00:32:42,160 --> 00:32:46,720
Speaker 4: all of those things and then what those changes would mean.

512
00:32:46,880 --> 00:32:51,160
Speaker 4: For example, for nest predator abundance, we should expect things

513
00:32:51,200 --> 00:32:57,520
Speaker 4: like raccoons and possums and foxes and various other coyotes,

514
00:32:58,400 --> 00:33:01,280
Speaker 4: we should expect them to increase and abundance as a

515
00:33:01,320 --> 00:33:03,960
Speaker 4: result of that change in plank commune because they have

516
00:33:04,000 --> 00:33:07,480
Speaker 4: habitat too right and it's improving for those species. So

517
00:33:08,120 --> 00:33:13,000
Speaker 4: to me, the factor that makes most sense that would

518
00:33:13,080 --> 00:33:18,719
Speaker 4: also promote other aspects of this makes you know, it

519
00:33:18,720 --> 00:33:22,760
Speaker 4: comes down to that habitat issue. And it's not just

520
00:33:22,840 --> 00:33:25,560
Speaker 4: that we are losing the amount of habitat, but the

521
00:33:25,600 --> 00:33:29,760
Speaker 4: connectivity of habitat is being influenced and also the quality

522
00:33:29,800 --> 00:33:33,760
Speaker 4: of habitat. And even when you think about hunting, you know,

523
00:33:33,840 --> 00:33:37,600
Speaker 4: we're still harvesting thirty percent of the males. But if

524
00:33:37,680 --> 00:33:43,040
Speaker 4: habitat quality is poor and we have fewer nests that hatch,

525
00:33:43,400 --> 00:33:46,880
Speaker 4: and then fewer of those poults that from the hatch

526
00:33:47,080 --> 00:33:53,880
Speaker 4: nest survive, then we can support less hunting mortality. And

527
00:33:54,200 --> 00:33:58,280
Speaker 4: that's not because hunting is the problem. It's because productivity

528
00:33:58,280 --> 00:34:01,040
Speaker 4: in the population is the problem. I think to me,

529
00:34:02,600 --> 00:34:04,520
Speaker 4: at the point we're at now, with the amount of

530
00:34:04,520 --> 00:34:09,120
Speaker 4: information that we have, we know that the relative role

531
00:34:09,200 --> 00:34:14,680
Speaker 4: of these factors is fluctuating substantially potentially across the landscape.

532
00:34:15,040 --> 00:34:19,560
Speaker 4: But the common denominator that is consistent is that we

533
00:34:19,760 --> 00:34:24,680
Speaker 4: are very limited on high quality nesting and brooding cover

534
00:34:25,080 --> 00:34:29,560
Speaker 4: across the landscape. Every study that tries to quantify the

535
00:34:29,600 --> 00:34:34,160
Speaker 4: proportion of the landscape that we would classify as high

536
00:34:34,239 --> 00:34:38,680
Speaker 4: quality nesting and brooding cover doesn't matter what state you pick,

537
00:34:40,160 --> 00:34:43,680
Speaker 4: it always comes out in the single digit proportion when

538
00:34:43,680 --> 00:34:46,839
Speaker 4: you add them together. So I don't know how much

539
00:34:47,120 --> 00:34:49,880
Speaker 4: of the landscape needs to be high quality brooding and

540
00:34:50,400 --> 00:34:53,640
Speaker 4: high quality nesting cover, but it's probably more than a

541
00:34:53,680 --> 00:34:59,839
Speaker 4: single digit percentage of the available habitat in an area.

542
00:35:00,480 --> 00:35:05,160
Speaker 2: Why why does that when you mentioned habitat being the

543
00:35:05,160 --> 00:35:05,640
Speaker 2: big issue?

544
00:35:05,640 --> 00:35:07,040
Speaker 3: Why does that make people roll the rice?

545
00:35:08,760 --> 00:35:15,440
Speaker 4: I don't know. I don't not what you want to say, Well,

546
00:35:15,480 --> 00:35:22,520
Speaker 4: you know, it's easy. I think it's it's uh, I

547
00:35:22,560 --> 00:35:27,000
Speaker 4: don't know. We've had this discussion before and there's lots

548
00:35:27,000 --> 00:35:31,080
Speaker 4: of really interesting ideas, but we like to villainize predators.

549
00:35:31,480 --> 00:35:37,520
Speaker 4: They're competitors with us, right Like, uh, I think it's

550
00:35:37,640 --> 00:35:39,799
Speaker 4: easy to point a finger that this is clearly a

551
00:35:39,800 --> 00:35:42,879
Speaker 4: predator problem. And then it makes sense when you look

552
00:35:42,920 --> 00:35:47,280
Speaker 4: at the studies and pretty much in every single study,

553
00:35:47,680 --> 00:35:51,279
Speaker 4: the leading calls of nest loss, the leading cause of

554
00:35:51,480 --> 00:35:55,960
Speaker 4: polt loss, the leading cause of him mortality is always predation.

555
00:35:56,800 --> 00:35:59,520
Speaker 4: And then it makes people look at that and say, oh, well,

556
00:35:59,560 --> 00:36:03,719
Speaker 4: clearly predators of the problem. And the problem with that

557
00:36:03,719 --> 00:36:07,080
Speaker 4: that viewpoint is what that data point actually tells you

558
00:36:07,239 --> 00:36:11,640
Speaker 4: is that predators eat turkeys. We already know that, right Yeah.

559
00:36:13,320 --> 00:36:17,040
Speaker 4: What you're not really understanding, necessarily, if you're not thinking

560
00:36:17,080 --> 00:36:21,360
Speaker 4: deeply about it, is what would what would be the outcome?

561
00:36:21,920 --> 00:36:24,640
Speaker 4: If you know, if I did a study in an

562
00:36:24,680 --> 00:36:31,200
Speaker 4: area and I removed or allowed the the nesting cover

563
00:36:31,440 --> 00:36:36,440
Speaker 4: to decline in quality substantially, we would lose more nests.

564
00:36:36,840 --> 00:36:41,040
Speaker 4: Do you know why because more would get eaten. So

565
00:36:41,800 --> 00:36:44,680
Speaker 4: if I took the same area and had high quality

566
00:36:44,719 --> 00:36:48,719
Speaker 4: nesting cover available and I just continue to add more

567
00:36:48,760 --> 00:36:52,000
Speaker 4: and more and more predators, we would lose more nests

568
00:36:52,560 --> 00:36:55,560
Speaker 4: and it would be because more would get eaten. So

569
00:36:55,840 --> 00:36:59,040
Speaker 4: if you see more nests get eaten, it doesn't actually

570
00:36:59,120 --> 00:37:03,439
Speaker 4: tell you what the problem is. That the predation could

571
00:37:03,520 --> 00:37:06,200
Speaker 4: be the cause or the symptom, if that makes sense.

572
00:37:06,600 --> 00:37:10,480
Speaker 4: And you know, I think we we latch onto some

573
00:37:10,640 --> 00:37:14,560
Speaker 4: things that they just make intuitive sense at face value.

574
00:37:15,320 --> 00:37:20,839
Speaker 4: And you know, we've we have been talking about habitat

575
00:37:21,400 --> 00:37:25,560
Speaker 4: and nauseum for a really long time with a lot

576
00:37:25,640 --> 00:37:30,840
Speaker 4: of wildlife management, and it's just people don't like to

577
00:37:30,880 --> 00:37:33,400
Speaker 4: hear that for some reason. So I don't know if

578
00:37:33,440 --> 00:37:36,439
Speaker 4: it's because we it's easy for us to villainize other

579
00:37:36,719 --> 00:37:42,920
Speaker 4: potential causes, or you know, it's it's something that's not

580
00:37:43,040 --> 00:37:46,160
Speaker 4: within the control of some people. It's something that's harder

581
00:37:46,200 --> 00:37:50,560
Speaker 4: to understand sometimes. Uh, you know, we have plant blindness

582
00:37:51,719 --> 00:37:55,240
Speaker 4: that's actually been quantified. There are all kinds of reasons.

583
00:37:55,440 --> 00:37:57,759
Speaker 4: I really don't know, but I do think it's interesting,

584
00:37:58,520 --> 00:38:00,920
Speaker 4: you know, if you take a step back. Even when

585
00:38:00,960 --> 00:38:04,759
Speaker 4: I work with private landowners really commonly trying to help them,

586
00:38:05,160 --> 00:38:08,680
Speaker 4: you know, develop high quality habitat for deer in turkeys.

587
00:38:10,320 --> 00:38:13,799
Speaker 4: And it's really interesting to hear someone that's been a wrong,

588
00:38:14,160 --> 00:38:17,200
Speaker 4: you know, for seventy or eighty years, and they say, well,

589
00:38:17,239 --> 00:38:20,719
Speaker 4: nothing's really changed here, and then we go around on

590
00:38:20,760 --> 00:38:22,600
Speaker 4: their property and it's like, yeah, I remember when this

591
00:38:22,680 --> 00:38:26,719
Speaker 4: field we used to plant by hand and I had

592
00:38:26,760 --> 00:38:28,680
Speaker 4: to go out there and pick weeds out of it.

593
00:38:28,800 --> 00:38:31,320
Speaker 4: And this field over here, it wasn't even a field.

594
00:38:31,360 --> 00:38:34,440
Speaker 4: It used to be this, you know, this old savannah

595
00:38:34,520 --> 00:38:37,040
Speaker 4: and yeah, we didn't even have herbicides, so we used

596
00:38:37,080 --> 00:38:39,560
Speaker 4: to just burn off all the brush everywhere. You know

597
00:38:39,600 --> 00:38:42,000
Speaker 4: that they start naming all these different things that have

598
00:38:42,120 --> 00:38:45,239
Speaker 4: changed right after they tell you nothing has changed, right,

599
00:38:46,160 --> 00:38:49,680
Speaker 4: And it's a really interesting thing. But I don't have

600
00:38:49,800 --> 00:38:55,360
Speaker 4: the answer to that, but I do see that that

601
00:38:55,360 --> 00:39:00,160
Speaker 4: that response often where there's some people that they don't

602
00:39:00,160 --> 00:39:02,080
Speaker 4: want to hear that this is a habitat problem.

603
00:39:02,719 --> 00:39:05,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, like you said, it seems to be the

604
00:39:05,320 --> 00:39:10,719
Speaker 2: habitat is a limiting factor across so many different species

605
00:39:10,760 --> 00:39:13,960
Speaker 2: of conservation concern, right, and then there's all these other

606
00:39:14,040 --> 00:39:21,040
Speaker 2: ancillary things that can then become kind of symptoms. Yeah, yeah, exactly,

607
00:39:21,160 --> 00:39:24,080
Speaker 2: and then because habitat is lacking, then these other things

608
00:39:24,120 --> 00:39:26,080
Speaker 2: can become more impactful.

609
00:39:26,200 --> 00:39:30,000
Speaker 4: So, like you said, we start to see their effect magnified. Yeah,

610
00:39:30,040 --> 00:39:34,000
Speaker 4: you know, hens in poorer body condition should be would

611
00:39:34,040 --> 00:39:37,080
Speaker 4: we not expect them to be more vulnerable to disease?

612
00:39:37,400 --> 00:39:40,840
Speaker 4: Yeah exactly, Yeah, I think that. You also said another

613
00:39:40,920 --> 00:39:45,560
Speaker 4: key thing. If we look at space, so let's think

614
00:39:45,560 --> 00:39:48,120
Speaker 4: about turkeys I just told you nesting in brooding cover

615
00:39:48,239 --> 00:39:52,640
Speaker 4: that's essentially shrubland or shrubby structure, and an understory that

616
00:39:52,680 --> 00:39:56,800
Speaker 4: has an open canopy and a forest or brooding cover

617
00:39:57,280 --> 00:40:02,160
Speaker 4: which is essentially a herbaceous dominated unity that is particularly

618
00:40:02,160 --> 00:40:10,239
Speaker 4: dominated by forbes, not grass. Okay, the if we look

619
00:40:10,280 --> 00:40:15,000
Speaker 4: at the species of conservation concern outside of turkeys in

620
00:40:15,080 --> 00:40:18,360
Speaker 4: the eastern United States and we restrict that to the

621
00:40:18,440 --> 00:40:24,280
Speaker 4: species that reside in uplands like turkeys mainly do, almost

622
00:40:24,360 --> 00:40:27,440
Speaker 4: every single species on the list that's in decline and

623
00:40:27,719 --> 00:40:34,040
Speaker 4: of concern is associated with early succession, prairie or some

624
00:40:34,080 --> 00:40:39,240
Speaker 4: sort of broken canopy, frequent fire system, all of them,

625
00:40:39,920 --> 00:40:40,760
Speaker 4: almost everyone.

626
00:40:42,480 --> 00:40:46,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's it's it's incredible. So many, I mean all

627
00:40:47,000 --> 00:40:51,440
Speaker 2: sorts of songbirds, pollinators, insects, so many different things seem

628
00:40:51,480 --> 00:40:54,480
Speaker 2: to be trending down, and like you said, many of

629
00:40:54,480 --> 00:40:58,080
Speaker 2: them seem attached to this this habitat need that.

630
00:40:58,760 --> 00:41:01,760
Speaker 4: And it's not even unique here. There was a global

631
00:41:01,800 --> 00:41:06,440
Speaker 4: analysis recently that showed, I think that that guild of

632
00:41:06,520 --> 00:41:14,200
Speaker 4: species ubiquitously globally was the most or those species were

633
00:41:14,239 --> 00:41:18,160
Speaker 4: in the most trouble or most decline across the planet.

634
00:41:18,920 --> 00:41:21,880
Speaker 4: So it's not unique here. It's just we you know,

635
00:41:22,000 --> 00:41:26,080
Speaker 4: things that we have started doing on the landscape tend

636
00:41:26,080 --> 00:41:30,919
Speaker 4: to impact of early successional communities. I mean, it's that's

637
00:41:30,960 --> 00:41:34,920
Speaker 4: the easiest to turn into agriculture, it's the easiest to develop,

638
00:41:35,040 --> 00:41:38,680
Speaker 4: it's the easiest to convert to pasture grass. You know,

639
00:41:38,719 --> 00:41:42,720
Speaker 4: it makes sense why we would see, you know, those

640
00:41:43,080 --> 00:41:46,640
Speaker 4: species imperiled by that. But you know, then we turn

641
00:41:46,719 --> 00:41:50,000
Speaker 4: and look at turkeys and people don't want to hear

642
00:41:50,040 --> 00:41:55,360
Speaker 4: that this is a habitat issue when the bottleneck demographically

643
00:41:55,440 --> 00:41:59,760
Speaker 4: for them are associated with that same you know, habitat structure.

644
00:42:00,400 --> 00:42:03,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it shouldn't be a surprise, I guess when

645
00:42:03,080 --> 00:42:04,000
Speaker 2: you look into that way.

646
00:42:05,760 --> 00:42:09,560
Speaker 4: And to me, because it would magnify all these other problems,

647
00:42:09,640 --> 00:42:11,840
Speaker 4: It makes a lot of sense that it would probably

648
00:42:11,920 --> 00:42:15,200
Speaker 4: be the root of the issue. In most places. The

649
00:42:15,280 --> 00:42:18,120
Speaker 4: problem is trying how do you change that at scale?

650
00:42:18,640 --> 00:42:22,360
Speaker 4: That's where we're at, Like, how do we change habitat

651
00:42:22,440 --> 00:42:27,640
Speaker 4: productivity for turkeys at scale to influence populations at state

652
00:42:27,840 --> 00:42:30,720
Speaker 4: or regional levels. You know, that's a that's a different

653
00:42:31,200 --> 00:42:35,520
Speaker 4: problem that we're you know, that we need to address.

654
00:42:36,600 --> 00:42:42,960
Speaker 2: So Marcus, how do we do that? What's the solution?

655
00:42:44,360 --> 00:42:48,600
Speaker 4: Yeah, that I think one of them is awareness. So

656
00:42:49,239 --> 00:42:52,480
Speaker 4: this is one place where I think the deer community

657
00:42:52,600 --> 00:43:00,200
Speaker 4: has excelled that the turkey enthusiast could take a after

658
00:43:00,320 --> 00:43:04,080
Speaker 4: out of the playbook. And one of those is through

659
00:43:04,520 --> 00:43:09,239
Speaker 4: cooperative land management cooperatives where you know, the deer management

660
00:43:09,480 --> 00:43:12,719
Speaker 4: cooperatives are pretty common now and a lot of them

661
00:43:12,719 --> 00:43:17,120
Speaker 4: are very successful. You know, where you have many landowners

662
00:43:17,160 --> 00:43:20,759
Speaker 4: getting together and they get a plan together where they're

663
00:43:20,800 --> 00:43:24,800
Speaker 4: all going to collectively manage their deer under this plan,

664
00:43:25,480 --> 00:43:28,799
Speaker 4: and that can be extremely successful. I think the same

665
00:43:28,840 --> 00:43:32,280
Speaker 4: thing could work for turkeys, and we do not see

666
00:43:32,320 --> 00:43:35,120
Speaker 4: that very often, but that's one way, you know, you

667
00:43:35,160 --> 00:43:38,799
Speaker 4: could collectively decide you know, hey, this is how many

668
00:43:38,840 --> 00:43:42,520
Speaker 4: gobboyers we think, here's what we should do in terms

669
00:43:42,560 --> 00:43:46,799
Speaker 4: of our you know, our harvest. Hey, uh, you know,

670
00:43:47,040 --> 00:43:49,480
Speaker 4: we need to all try to increase the amount of

671
00:43:49,480 --> 00:43:53,400
Speaker 4: brooding cover to some critical level. Hey, we need connectivity.

672
00:43:53,560 --> 00:43:57,840
Speaker 4: So if I get a crew in to harvest this stand,

673
00:43:58,200 --> 00:43:59,960
Speaker 4: do you think you could do this in the one

674
00:44:00,040 --> 00:44:02,719
Speaker 4: and adjacent on your property? You know, those kinds of

675
00:44:02,760 --> 00:44:05,960
Speaker 4: things can start to move the needle more at a

676
00:44:06,000 --> 00:44:09,439
Speaker 4: local scale, and then they build out from there. I've

677
00:44:09,480 --> 00:44:16,120
Speaker 4: also been extremely active in the fire community, and particularly

678
00:44:16,160 --> 00:44:20,160
Speaker 4: in the South. I mean, almost all of those landscapes

679
00:44:20,560 --> 00:44:24,920
Speaker 4: that I've been talking about that turkeys thrive in, I

680
00:44:24,920 --> 00:44:28,000
Speaker 4: mean mark when you look at the historical records from

681
00:44:28,120 --> 00:44:33,720
Speaker 4: various aspects, basically all of the eastern United States, nearly

682
00:44:33,840 --> 00:44:39,759
Speaker 4: all of it was classified in some sort of woodland

683
00:44:40,200 --> 00:44:44,960
Speaker 4: or savannah or grassland state. You know, almost none of

684
00:44:45,000 --> 00:44:47,560
Speaker 4: that landscape is in that state now. But the reason

685
00:44:47,600 --> 00:44:50,160
Speaker 4: it was in that state is because of widespread use

686
00:44:50,200 --> 00:44:54,600
Speaker 4: of fire. So I think that's one tool that we

687
00:44:54,640 --> 00:44:59,200
Speaker 4: are starting to implement at scale. There's barriers. People are

688
00:44:59,239 --> 00:45:03,480
Speaker 4: afraid of it. On private lands, for example, there's liability

689
00:45:04,760 --> 00:45:08,480
Speaker 4: of fears. A lot of people don't realize, especially in

690
00:45:08,480 --> 00:45:10,799
Speaker 4: some of the southern states, that we have right to

691
00:45:10,880 --> 00:45:15,920
Speaker 4: burn laws that help protect you from liability. We have

692
00:45:16,880 --> 00:45:20,239
Speaker 4: prescribed burn associations that are popping up all over the

693
00:45:20,320 --> 00:45:24,239
Speaker 4: place that are basically landown or cooperatives where they're all

694
00:45:24,280 --> 00:45:26,919
Speaker 4: sharing resources and they're going and burning with each other.

695
00:45:28,000 --> 00:45:30,840
Speaker 4: That's one aspect that I think is going to really

696
00:45:30,920 --> 00:45:34,680
Speaker 4: help with this situation is just getting more fire use

697
00:45:34,760 --> 00:45:39,799
Speaker 4: on the landscape that the artifact of that practice is

698
00:45:40,400 --> 00:45:44,839
Speaker 4: better nesting and brooding cover for turkeys. So I think

699
00:45:45,080 --> 00:45:48,319
Speaker 4: those are the kinds of grassroots initiatives that we can

700
00:45:48,360 --> 00:45:51,480
Speaker 4: really start to move the needle. And if we have

701
00:45:51,560 --> 00:45:55,800
Speaker 4: high enough awareness and we start to make policy changes

702
00:45:56,080 --> 00:45:58,360
Speaker 4: like those right to burn laws that make it easier

703
00:45:58,400 --> 00:46:01,880
Speaker 4: for people to do things, you know, that would benefit

704
00:46:01,960 --> 00:46:06,600
Speaker 4: the species, uh, you know, we start to make real change.

705
00:46:07,040 --> 00:46:12,239
Speaker 4: And there there are examples where groups of landowners or

706
00:46:12,640 --> 00:46:17,480
Speaker 4: wm A complexes have gotten really aggressive with habitat management

707
00:46:17,600 --> 00:46:21,400
Speaker 4: and they see really great success with that where the

708
00:46:21,480 --> 00:46:25,239
Speaker 4: populations seem to flourish even even though they may not

709
00:46:25,280 --> 00:46:26,360
Speaker 4: be elsewhere in the state.

710
00:46:38,160 --> 00:46:42,160
Speaker 2: So let's zoom in just a little bit. So we

711
00:46:42,320 --> 00:46:44,879
Speaker 2: just talked there about scale but let's now talk at

712
00:46:44,920 --> 00:46:47,440
Speaker 2: like the individual level. So if I'm a landowner or

713
00:46:47,480 --> 00:46:50,400
Speaker 2: a land manager of some kind, and I'm hearing you

714
00:46:50,440 --> 00:46:53,279
Speaker 2: say that nesting and brooding covers the bottleneck, that's our

715
00:46:53,880 --> 00:46:57,120
Speaker 2: that's our area of most need. It's also a habitat

716
00:46:57,200 --> 00:47:00,640
Speaker 2: type that's disappearing across the country. It's also a habitat

717
00:47:00,719 --> 00:47:05,919
Speaker 2: that's significantly important to many other species, and we don't

718
00:47:05,920 --> 00:47:06,120
Speaker 2: have it.

719
00:47:06,239 --> 00:47:08,320
Speaker 3: So it sounds like I need to make sure I've.

720
00:47:08,200 --> 00:47:10,920
Speaker 4: Got a broody that one. Let me add one another thing.

721
00:47:11,200 --> 00:47:15,440
Speaker 4: It's also a structure of vegetation that a lot of

722
00:47:15,440 --> 00:47:20,880
Speaker 4: our predators don't like. Why is that? I don't know.

723
00:47:22,200 --> 00:47:24,920
Speaker 4: I've got to asked that several times. But the state

724
00:47:24,920 --> 00:47:28,360
Speaker 4: of the data, especially with prescribe fire, is very clear.

725
00:47:28,760 --> 00:47:34,160
Speaker 4: We just we've recorded various episodes on various podcasts about

726
00:47:34,200 --> 00:47:39,080
Speaker 4: this where we've covered several studies related to prescribe fire

727
00:47:39,280 --> 00:47:41,960
Speaker 4: and like, for example, with a raccoon, if you put

728
00:47:42,000 --> 00:47:44,719
Speaker 4: a tag on a raccoon and follow him around and

729
00:47:45,040 --> 00:47:48,320
Speaker 4: get his home range, and then you burn a unit

730
00:47:48,440 --> 00:47:51,480
Speaker 4: within his home range, you may as well made that

731
00:47:51,520 --> 00:47:56,759
Speaker 4: thing of donut. He basically, I mean, in one of

732
00:47:56,800 --> 00:48:01,640
Speaker 4: the studies that they did that they decrease the use

733
00:48:01,719 --> 00:48:06,879
Speaker 4: of that area up to eighty percent within that burn unit,

734
00:48:06,920 --> 00:48:09,759
Speaker 4: even though it's running the middle of his home range.

735
00:48:10,040 --> 00:48:16,319
Speaker 4: So you know, another study from northern Florida that had

736
00:48:16,320 --> 00:48:19,160
Speaker 4: a whole bunch of different areas all across the Panhandle

737
00:48:19,320 --> 00:48:24,319
Speaker 4: all the way over to the Atlantic. They looked at

738
00:48:24,400 --> 00:48:28,279
Speaker 4: how likely they were to detect a many of the

739
00:48:28,320 --> 00:48:32,640
Speaker 4: predators of turkeys, both nest and adult predators, the mammals,

740
00:48:33,080 --> 00:48:36,600
Speaker 4: and basically across the board and including of wild pigs

741
00:48:36,640 --> 00:48:41,640
Speaker 4: that cause all kinds of problems if you increase the well,

742
00:48:41,719 --> 00:48:45,239
Speaker 4: let me start, if the area that the cameras were

743
00:48:45,239 --> 00:48:48,280
Speaker 4: in was not burned, and this was replicated remember across

744
00:48:48,320 --> 00:48:52,120
Speaker 4: many sites. If the area was not being burned that

745
00:48:52,200 --> 00:48:56,040
Speaker 4: the cameras were in, you were above seventy percent likelihood

746
00:48:56,160 --> 00:49:01,279
Speaker 4: to detect all of them. And if you increase the

747
00:49:01,360 --> 00:49:04,000
Speaker 4: frequency such that you were on a two year return

748
00:49:04,080 --> 00:49:08,920
Speaker 4: intervoy fire, so frequent fire, which most of Florida historically

749
00:49:09,360 --> 00:49:11,840
Speaker 4: did burn every two years, or even more frequently in

750
00:49:11,840 --> 00:49:16,400
Speaker 4: some places, if you increased it to that two year frequency,

751
00:49:16,840 --> 00:49:20,960
Speaker 4: you decrease the likelihood of detecting a whole suite of

752
00:49:21,040 --> 00:49:25,200
Speaker 4: predators from above seventy percent across the board to below

753
00:49:25,280 --> 00:49:29,600
Speaker 4: ten percent across the board. We're talking about substantial changes

754
00:49:30,120 --> 00:49:32,640
Speaker 4: and predator use, and it's not that they're that much

755
00:49:32,719 --> 00:49:36,440
Speaker 4: less abundant. What happens is they get relegated to the

756
00:49:36,480 --> 00:49:42,160
Speaker 4: wetland basically the stream. You know that the wet areas

757
00:49:42,200 --> 00:49:45,520
Speaker 4: that are not being influenced by fire, and a lot

758
00:49:45,560 --> 00:49:48,799
Speaker 4: of those species are what we'd call music species. They're

759
00:49:48,840 --> 00:49:53,839
Speaker 4: supposed to be associated with that drainage. Wow, they're just

760
00:49:53,920 --> 00:49:57,200
Speaker 4: not when when fire isn't part of the landscape.

761
00:49:57,600 --> 00:50:01,200
Speaker 2: So fire obviously is a big of the solution for

762
00:50:01,280 --> 00:50:03,480
Speaker 2: those who can implement it.

763
00:50:03,520 --> 00:50:04,400
Speaker 4: Absolutely is.

764
00:50:05,080 --> 00:50:08,800
Speaker 2: In addition to that, though, what else could a landowner

765
00:50:09,040 --> 00:50:11,960
Speaker 2: manager do to create more of this kind of habitat?

766
00:50:12,000 --> 00:50:12,040
Speaker 4: So?

767
00:50:12,520 --> 00:50:15,279
Speaker 3: Number one is prescribe fire. What else?

768
00:50:16,160 --> 00:50:19,880
Speaker 4: Yeah, So a lot of the things that we recommend

769
00:50:20,000 --> 00:50:24,280
Speaker 4: for people to do to improve their deer habitat apply

770
00:50:25,080 --> 00:50:27,200
Speaker 4: two turkeys. I want to make that clear because I

771
00:50:27,280 --> 00:50:32,080
Speaker 4: know that you have a strong deer oriented audience, and

772
00:50:32,120 --> 00:50:35,600
Speaker 4: I do a lot of turkey and deer work, to

773
00:50:35,680 --> 00:50:39,279
Speaker 4: be clear, and I focus a lot on habitat SO

774
00:50:40,120 --> 00:50:44,520
Speaker 4: practices that are opening the canopy, and especially when they're

775
00:50:44,560 --> 00:50:50,560
Speaker 4: adding fire that promote a developed understory, especially that is

776
00:50:50,640 --> 00:50:55,600
Speaker 4: dominated by forbes. Those practices are going to be beneficial

777
00:50:55,640 --> 00:51:00,640
Speaker 4: for both species. So that can include a commercial timber harvest,

778
00:51:01,200 --> 00:51:03,680
Speaker 4: or if you're in a situation where you can't or

779
00:51:03,719 --> 00:51:06,400
Speaker 4: don't want to do that, it could include forest and

780
00:51:06,520 --> 00:51:11,120
Speaker 4: improvement where you go in and kill individual trees and

781
00:51:11,200 --> 00:51:14,120
Speaker 4: try to, you know, get rid of things that are

782
00:51:14,719 --> 00:51:18,680
Speaker 4: unwanted tree species you don't like, and do that in

783
00:51:19,120 --> 00:51:23,480
Speaker 4: a way that promotes higher sunlight penetration. Other things that

784
00:51:23,719 --> 00:51:27,560
Speaker 4: I think the deer community in particular can have a

785
00:51:27,640 --> 00:51:31,080
Speaker 4: major impact if you're also interested in turkeys, is starting

786
00:51:31,120 --> 00:51:35,480
Speaker 4: to manage your fall food pot program such that it

787
00:51:35,560 --> 00:51:40,560
Speaker 4: turns into a high quality poult rearing program during the spring.

788
00:51:41,480 --> 00:51:44,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, se some videos you guys published about that. Can

789
00:51:44,080 --> 00:51:46,840
Speaker 2: you can you describe how exactly we could do something

790
00:51:46,880 --> 00:51:47,120
Speaker 2: like that?

791
00:51:47,840 --> 00:51:54,120
Speaker 4: Yeah, So in my experience, this works really well, particularly

792
00:51:54,160 --> 00:51:58,640
Speaker 4: with crimson clover and wheat, but it can also work

793
00:51:58,719 --> 00:52:05,160
Speaker 4: well with like airleaf clover and oats are right cereal rye,

794
00:52:05,719 --> 00:52:09,560
Speaker 4: you know, some combination of those, and you could even

795
00:52:09,600 --> 00:52:12,200
Speaker 4: have four or five of those species I just named

796
00:52:12,239 --> 00:52:16,600
Speaker 4: in there, but those tend to work really well. And basically,

797
00:52:17,719 --> 00:52:21,440
Speaker 4: let's just keep it simple with crimson clover and wheat.

798
00:52:21,840 --> 00:52:24,920
Speaker 4: So if you plant let's say twenty pounds of crimson

799
00:52:24,920 --> 00:52:28,719
Speaker 4: clover per acre and maybe a thirty pound rate or

800
00:52:28,840 --> 00:52:35,879
Speaker 4: forty pound rate something like that of wheat, basically those

801
00:52:35,880 --> 00:52:39,279
Speaker 4: two plants super attractive to deer during the fall. And

802
00:52:39,680 --> 00:52:42,279
Speaker 4: I realize that this may not be applicable to some

803
00:52:42,400 --> 00:52:44,879
Speaker 4: other parts of the country, but in the South, I mean,

804
00:52:44,920 --> 00:52:48,759
Speaker 4: those things are those are really great plants, are well adapted,

805
00:52:49,040 --> 00:52:54,600
Speaker 4: and they do really well, and the important thing is

806
00:52:54,640 --> 00:52:58,680
Speaker 4: they're really attractive to deer. They're also really attractive to turkeys.

807
00:52:58,760 --> 00:53:01,560
Speaker 4: Early in the breeding season, when you're getting a lot

808
00:53:01,560 --> 00:53:04,480
Speaker 4: of the strutting, you know, you'll see a lot of

809
00:53:04,520 --> 00:53:08,239
Speaker 4: turkey use of those areas. And then they start to

810
00:53:08,760 --> 00:53:13,000
Speaker 4: the clover and the wheat starts to seness. So it

811
00:53:13,040 --> 00:53:17,799
Speaker 4: basically dies right because those their annual plants. And when

812
00:53:17,840 --> 00:53:22,840
Speaker 4: they die, because of the disturbance of the field, you

813
00:53:22,920 --> 00:53:25,759
Speaker 4: start to get a lot of weeds come in. And

814
00:53:25,840 --> 00:53:28,640
Speaker 4: if those weeds, if you take some care to make

815
00:53:28,680 --> 00:53:32,040
Speaker 4: sure that you get rid of unwanted weeds, a lot

816
00:53:32,080 --> 00:53:35,319
Speaker 4: of the weeds will be really high quality forbes, the

817
00:53:35,360 --> 00:53:40,000
Speaker 4: things that you're trying to encourage in a brooding field.

818
00:53:41,120 --> 00:53:44,719
Speaker 4: So what you end up with in that transition is

819
00:53:44,760 --> 00:53:47,480
Speaker 4: it goes from that really high quality deer plot that

820
00:53:47,600 --> 00:53:50,839
Speaker 4: becomes a really attractive turkey plot during a lot of

821
00:53:50,880 --> 00:53:56,120
Speaker 4: folks turkey season, and then it transitions early in brooding

822
00:53:56,400 --> 00:54:01,360
Speaker 4: into a really good structure for brooding because of the weeds.

823
00:54:01,760 --> 00:54:05,759
Speaker 4: What most people, well, there's multiple problems that come that

824
00:54:05,920 --> 00:54:08,279
Speaker 4: most people are not taking care of. One, if you're

825
00:54:08,320 --> 00:54:12,080
Speaker 4: planting something like that and you don't deal with whatever

826
00:54:12,200 --> 00:54:15,000
Speaker 4: grass problems or said problems that you have, which is

827
00:54:15,040 --> 00:54:17,879
Speaker 4: almost certain that you do. If you don't take care

828
00:54:17,920 --> 00:54:22,160
Speaker 4: of those, that will limit it from transitioning into that

829
00:54:22,239 --> 00:54:27,040
Speaker 4: kind of structure. And down here that's rye grass. Every

830
00:54:27,120 --> 00:54:31,240
Speaker 4: field that I go to almost has a rye grass

831
00:54:31,280 --> 00:54:35,560
Speaker 4: problem unless they have they have tried to take care

832
00:54:35,600 --> 00:54:42,080
Speaker 4: of it through some sort of herbicide regimen. So you know,

833
00:54:42,080 --> 00:54:45,120
Speaker 4: if you take care of some of your weed issues,

834
00:54:45,560 --> 00:54:48,560
Speaker 4: which often is going to be some sort of grass,

835
00:54:49,680 --> 00:54:53,160
Speaker 4: then you know it can transition. There can be some

836
00:54:53,239 --> 00:54:56,680
Speaker 4: problematic forbes. Don't get me wrong, We have plenty of them.

837
00:54:56,719 --> 00:55:01,080
Speaker 4: Down here, you know, like sickle pod or you know

838
00:55:01,160 --> 00:55:05,160
Speaker 4: some of the other invasive forbes like that can certainly

839
00:55:05,200 --> 00:55:10,840
Speaker 4: be a problem. But if you take some precaution precautionary

840
00:55:10,880 --> 00:55:13,200
Speaker 4: measures to make sure you deal with those issues and

841
00:55:13,280 --> 00:55:18,080
Speaker 4: then let it transition into that forb dominated community in

842
00:55:18,160 --> 00:55:23,000
Speaker 4: the dead you know, crimson and wheat, it can produce

843
00:55:23,040 --> 00:55:29,960
Speaker 4: a really powerful system for you to balance deer hunting

844
00:55:30,280 --> 00:55:36,759
Speaker 4: opportunity with turkey hunting opportunity with poult rearing cover. So,

845
00:55:37,000 --> 00:55:40,359
Speaker 4: like that's a practice that could really help people that

846
00:55:40,480 --> 00:55:43,239
Speaker 4: have a property that they're interested in both species.

847
00:55:44,040 --> 00:55:48,400
Speaker 2: Now, for folks who are doing like a fall planting

848
00:55:48,440 --> 00:55:51,640
Speaker 2: and a spring planting kind of rotation on a food plot,

849
00:55:52,120 --> 00:55:55,439
Speaker 2: what's the time period where you need to make sure

850
00:55:55,480 --> 00:55:58,360
Speaker 2: you're leaving that plot alone so that it can act

851
00:55:58,440 --> 00:56:02,120
Speaker 2: as that brooding habitat? Is that something that is there

852
00:56:02,120 --> 00:56:05,400
Speaker 2: a window where we need to make sure we leave that.

853
00:56:04,719 --> 00:56:09,799
Speaker 4: That really So there are resources available to you, and

854
00:56:09,840 --> 00:56:13,000
Speaker 4: if you're a turkey enthusiast, you might already know this,

855
00:56:13,160 --> 00:56:16,120
Speaker 4: but what you really need to figure out is where

856
00:56:16,160 --> 00:56:21,200
Speaker 4: you are When is peak nest initiation? So when are

857
00:56:21,239 --> 00:56:24,800
Speaker 4: they incubating a nest and then project to when the

858
00:56:25,920 --> 00:56:28,960
Speaker 4: majority of hatching is going to occur. All right, So

859
00:56:29,080 --> 00:56:32,000
Speaker 4: for a lot of the country, that might be the

860
00:56:32,040 --> 00:56:35,520
Speaker 4: middle two weeks of May, for example, when polts are

861
00:56:35,520 --> 00:56:40,000
Speaker 4: going to be just recently hatched and they're going to

862
00:56:40,040 --> 00:56:44,399
Speaker 4: be in that critical two week window. That window where

863
00:56:44,600 --> 00:56:47,560
Speaker 4: whatever it is for where you're listening from, is the

864
00:56:47,600 --> 00:56:51,240
Speaker 4: critical window. The beauty of turkeys is. It doesn't matter

865
00:56:51,280 --> 00:56:55,080
Speaker 4: if you're in Oregon or Florida, or Pennsylvania or Texas.

866
00:56:55,120 --> 00:56:59,400
Speaker 4: It doesn't matter. The same general structure is needed. You

867
00:56:59,480 --> 00:57:02,560
Speaker 4: might get there a little differently, but we need a

868
00:57:02,640 --> 00:57:06,960
Speaker 4: FORB dominated community with a lot of bare ground underneath that. So,

869
00:57:07,719 --> 00:57:10,200
Speaker 4: like you said, I had a video that I put

870
00:57:10,200 --> 00:57:14,440
Speaker 4: on YouTube recently trying to show people that system, the

871
00:57:14,719 --> 00:57:18,040
Speaker 4: Crimson cover with wheat system, and what that needed to

872
00:57:18,080 --> 00:57:20,960
Speaker 4: look like to make sure that it was producing that

873
00:57:21,120 --> 00:57:24,200
Speaker 4: poul room cover. So if you can get that two

874
00:57:24,240 --> 00:57:28,720
Speaker 4: week minimum, you know period at a minimum, really you know,

875
00:57:28,760 --> 00:57:32,200
Speaker 4: a four to six week window of time, you can

876
00:57:32,400 --> 00:57:35,160
Speaker 4: really produce a lot of poles. The other thing that

877
00:57:35,240 --> 00:57:37,640
Speaker 4: I will add a lot of those forbes that we're

878
00:57:37,640 --> 00:57:44,720
Speaker 4: trying to produce in that system or thirty percent crew

879
00:57:44,800 --> 00:57:48,120
Speaker 4: protein twenty five percent crew protein. They're just as good

880
00:57:48,120 --> 00:57:52,480
Speaker 4: as what you would be planting for your deer, you know,

881
00:57:52,520 --> 00:57:58,120
Speaker 4: summer plots right in many cases. So yeah, it really is.

882
00:57:58,840 --> 00:58:02,280
Speaker 4: It's a great way to balance those two species. You know,

883
00:58:02,320 --> 00:58:04,920
Speaker 4: a lot of the lot of the plants that that

884
00:58:05,160 --> 00:58:07,439
Speaker 4: deer are going to eat, the wild plants that they're

885
00:58:07,440 --> 00:58:11,600
Speaker 4: eating when they're trying to support peak lactation or antler growth,

886
00:58:11,960 --> 00:58:15,480
Speaker 4: are the same plants that are producing lots of insects

887
00:58:15,560 --> 00:58:17,480
Speaker 4: for polts to run around under and catch.

888
00:58:18,160 --> 00:58:19,320
Speaker 3: Yeah.

889
00:58:19,720 --> 00:58:26,680
Speaker 2: So so habitat is the greatest way we can probably

890
00:58:26,720 --> 00:58:29,760
Speaker 2: make a difference as an individual by creating this kind

891
00:58:29,760 --> 00:58:32,520
Speaker 2: of habitat making sure that bottleneck is not a problem

892
00:58:32,600 --> 00:58:33,920
Speaker 2: in our local areas.

893
00:58:34,360 --> 00:58:38,920
Speaker 3: But there's also been a lot of talk within the Turkey.

894
00:58:38,680 --> 00:58:42,160
Speaker 2: Hunting community in recent years around you know, how we

895
00:58:42,880 --> 00:58:47,240
Speaker 2: influence Turkey populations with our hunting itself, And you mentioned

896
00:58:47,280 --> 00:58:49,360
Speaker 2: this on the topic is there any kind of hunting

897
00:58:49,400 --> 00:58:53,320
Speaker 2: pressure related impact that we're making, So again back to

898
00:58:53,360 --> 00:58:55,760
Speaker 2: what we as individuals can do. I know there's certain states,

899
00:58:55,800 --> 00:58:58,720
Speaker 2: some states are starting to possibly pull back in some

900
00:58:58,760 --> 00:59:01,640
Speaker 2: ways or adjust rights in some ways. There's been lots

901
00:59:01,680 --> 00:59:05,760
Speaker 2: of speculation about different tactics that we should not allow maybe,

902
00:59:05,880 --> 00:59:09,520
Speaker 2: or different things like that. But from your perspective, based

903
00:59:09,560 --> 00:59:12,320
Speaker 2: on what you've seen, based on the research, based on

904
00:59:12,360 --> 00:59:15,880
Speaker 2: the folks who've talked to. If I am an individual

905
00:59:15,880 --> 00:59:19,640
Speaker 2: who's worried about turkeys in my area, are there any

906
00:59:19,960 --> 00:59:24,840
Speaker 2: changes that I should make as a turkey hunter as

907
00:59:24,840 --> 00:59:29,240
Speaker 2: far as how I hunt, as far as when I hunt,

908
00:59:29,280 --> 00:59:33,000
Speaker 2: as far as anything like that. If I'm a concerned

909
00:59:33,040 --> 00:59:35,160
Speaker 2: turkey hunter, are there any changes that I should be

910
00:59:35,200 --> 00:59:39,800
Speaker 2: making to my hunting practices in or to the regulations

911
00:59:39,800 --> 00:59:41,800
Speaker 2: that I advocate for that would help.

912
00:59:42,720 --> 00:59:46,120
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's a great question. That's one of the primary

913
00:59:46,160 --> 00:59:51,680
Speaker 4: hypotheses that's been worked on. As I said earlier, So

914
00:59:52,600 --> 00:59:57,920
Speaker 4: you know, I I think if you're worried about turkeys

915
00:59:58,120 --> 01:00:03,480
Speaker 4: in your area, it makes sense for you to exercise

916
01:00:03,520 --> 01:00:07,840
Speaker 4: some restriction, and you know, maybe you want to decrease

917
01:00:08,200 --> 01:00:12,439
Speaker 4: the harvest pressure that you have on your population. Another thing,

918
01:00:12,680 --> 01:00:15,959
Speaker 4: in many places, it is still legal to shoot a hen,

919
01:00:16,880 --> 01:00:20,160
Speaker 4: either in the fall or a bearded hen or something.

920
01:00:20,720 --> 01:00:25,000
Speaker 4: That hen is the most important fact. She is playing

921
01:00:25,040 --> 01:00:28,840
Speaker 4: the most important role in what the population trajectory is.

922
01:00:29,480 --> 01:00:36,520
Speaker 4: You think about that hen she is potentially producing nests

923
01:00:36,640 --> 01:00:41,520
Speaker 4: and poults for nine or ten years. Right, If you

924
01:00:41,600 --> 01:00:44,880
Speaker 4: take out a hen, you've taken out years worth of

925
01:00:45,000 --> 01:00:49,080
Speaker 4: nests and poults potentially, So you know that. That's another

926
01:00:49,560 --> 01:00:56,439
Speaker 4: way that if you're concerned, you know to on your

927
01:00:56,520 --> 01:01:01,920
Speaker 4: property not take a hen. That makes sense. Some people

928
01:01:02,080 --> 01:01:06,400
Speaker 4: have have been been concerned about the timing of hunting

929
01:01:06,640 --> 01:01:11,600
Speaker 4: and when we're hunting. There is a study and it's

930
01:01:11,640 --> 01:01:15,480
Speaker 4: in the publication process now. It was in Tennessee where

931
01:01:15,520 --> 01:01:21,040
Speaker 4: they manipulated the timing of the season in a well, frankly,

932
01:01:21,120 --> 01:01:23,920
Speaker 4: one of the strongest experiments has ever been done in turkeys.

933
01:01:24,640 --> 01:01:27,480
Speaker 4: It was a before after control impact design. It's like

934
01:01:27,520 --> 01:01:31,919
Speaker 4: the dream design best case scenario. They had a really

935
01:01:31,960 --> 01:01:37,080
Speaker 4: large sample size. They went into five counties and monitored

936
01:01:37,440 --> 01:01:41,320
Speaker 4: the reproductive success and survival and all that stuff of

937
01:01:41,720 --> 01:01:44,840
Speaker 4: populations of turkeys in these counties and then took part

938
01:01:44,880 --> 01:01:47,040
Speaker 4: of the counties. After they did that for a while

939
01:01:47,640 --> 01:01:51,840
Speaker 4: three or four years, then they changed the season date

940
01:01:51,880 --> 01:01:55,320
Speaker 4: to be later in those counties and then compared it

941
01:01:55,360 --> 01:01:57,440
Speaker 4: to the other counties that they did not move it in.

942
01:01:58,440 --> 01:02:02,360
Speaker 4: After they followed the populations for two more years, they

943
01:02:02,400 --> 01:02:05,160
Speaker 4: looked to see or is there any difference in reproduction

944
01:02:05,360 --> 01:02:09,440
Speaker 4: between the populations, and there was not. They didn't observe

945
01:02:09,520 --> 01:02:13,960
Speaker 4: anything in Tennessee. But in that Tennessee study they did

946
01:02:14,080 --> 01:02:20,640
Speaker 4: show a substantial change in productivity of turkeys as a

947
01:02:20,680 --> 01:02:27,240
Speaker 4: function of habitat. So hens that were nesting in in

948
01:02:27,320 --> 01:02:37,560
Speaker 4: Shreubland had a substantially higher nesting success than hens that

949
01:02:37,840 --> 01:02:43,920
Speaker 4: nested elsewhere. And seven percent of the landscape was between

950
01:02:43,960 --> 01:02:47,080
Speaker 4: brooding and nesting cover considered high quality in that study,

951
01:02:47,640 --> 01:02:51,280
Speaker 4: and almost fifty percent of the nesting attempts were in

952
01:02:51,320 --> 01:02:56,680
Speaker 4: that seven percent. Right, that's substantial selection, and it had

953
01:02:56,720 --> 01:03:00,560
Speaker 4: conferred a really big effect on the success. And that's

954
01:03:00,680 --> 01:03:05,080
Speaker 4: an example of where the selection is extremely strong for

955
01:03:05,320 --> 01:03:08,600
Speaker 4: something that we could probably stand to produce a lot

956
01:03:08,640 --> 01:03:11,640
Speaker 4: more on the landscape, certainly more than seven percent. And

957
01:03:11,720 --> 01:03:13,720
Speaker 4: if we did that at the scale, we'd have a

958
01:03:13,720 --> 01:03:16,880
Speaker 4: really big effect on population. And here I think is

959
01:03:16,880 --> 01:03:22,960
Speaker 4: the important thing. If you change your poulp per hen ratio,

960
01:03:23,160 --> 01:03:26,400
Speaker 4: so how many polts you're recruiting per hen from let's

961
01:03:26,400 --> 01:03:32,720
Speaker 4: say one to four, you're so productive. All these other

962
01:03:32,760 --> 01:03:34,520
Speaker 4: factors really don't matter that much.

963
01:03:34,960 --> 01:03:37,120
Speaker 2: And that's purely a function of habitat, right.

964
01:03:37,520 --> 01:03:42,480
Speaker 4: Not completely, but it's playing an incredibly important role and

965
01:03:42,560 --> 01:03:45,960
Speaker 4: it's probably affecting a lot of these other factors, like

966
01:03:46,040 --> 01:03:49,520
Speaker 4: how important the hunt, Like the hunting pressure on your

967
01:03:49,520 --> 01:03:54,120
Speaker 4: property is strongly dependent on how many gabblers you're producing

968
01:03:54,160 --> 01:03:59,400
Speaker 4: on your property, right, So if you can increase that substantially,

969
01:04:00,000 --> 01:04:02,200
Speaker 4: and then it reduces the need for you to worry

970
01:04:02,280 --> 01:04:03,960
Speaker 4: about the hunting pressure.

971
01:04:04,520 --> 01:04:04,640
Speaker 3: Right.

972
01:04:04,760 --> 01:04:08,720
Speaker 4: So you know, I think that's really where the rubber

973
01:04:08,760 --> 01:04:11,600
Speaker 4: meets the road. We need to figure out ways. Another

974
01:04:11,680 --> 01:04:17,920
Speaker 4: thing that is really commonly practiced is people trapped, and

975
01:04:17,960 --> 01:04:21,320
Speaker 4: that I'm not discouraging people from doing that. I think

976
01:04:21,320 --> 01:04:23,240
Speaker 4: it's a lot of fun. I think it's a great

977
01:04:23,240 --> 01:04:27,440
Speaker 4: way to get people involved in things. But you know,

978
01:04:28,320 --> 01:04:32,400
Speaker 4: the fact of the matter is the habitat should probably

979
01:04:32,440 --> 01:04:35,720
Speaker 4: come first. And then if you want to also trap,

980
01:04:36,160 --> 01:04:39,200
Speaker 4: that's fine, there's nothing wrong with that. If you're doing

981
01:04:39,200 --> 01:04:42,040
Speaker 4: that within your legal right, then you go have fun.

982
01:04:43,480 --> 01:04:48,120
Speaker 4: But you know, the predator issue is probably linked to

983
01:04:48,160 --> 01:04:52,760
Speaker 4: habitat first, and I think you know that's the way

984
01:04:52,800 --> 01:04:53,480
Speaker 4: to think about that.

985
01:04:54,080 --> 01:04:59,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, So Marcus, if you were if you were some

986
01:05:00,000 --> 01:05:03,600
Speaker 2: how elevated from your position at the University of Florida

987
01:05:03,640 --> 01:05:09,120
Speaker 2: to instead become the turkeys are of the United States

988
01:05:09,160 --> 01:05:14,960
Speaker 2: of America. You were granted, you were granted full access,

989
01:05:15,160 --> 01:05:18,880
Speaker 2: full access to the resources you would need and the

990
01:05:19,000 --> 01:05:22,960
Speaker 2: regulatory powers you might want or need if you had

991
01:05:23,560 --> 01:05:25,560
Speaker 2: the magic wand.

992
01:05:26,200 --> 01:05:26,959
Speaker 3: What would you.

993
01:05:28,440 --> 01:05:31,320
Speaker 2: What would you do with that power over the next

994
01:05:31,360 --> 01:05:34,680
Speaker 2: ten years to right the ship when it comes to turkeys.

995
01:05:35,120 --> 01:05:37,280
Speaker 2: I think we can all make some assumptions based on

996
01:05:37,320 --> 01:05:40,080
Speaker 2: what you've been talking about here, But walk me through

997
01:05:40,120 --> 01:05:43,000
Speaker 2: the biggest thing you would do when it comes to habitat,

998
01:05:43,600 --> 01:05:45,560
Speaker 2: the biggest thing you would do when it comes to

999
01:05:45,760 --> 01:05:49,560
Speaker 2: hunting or regulation, And if there's anything else in addition

1000
01:05:49,600 --> 01:05:52,040
Speaker 2: to those two categories, what would that be.

1001
01:05:54,480 --> 01:05:58,960
Speaker 4: Yeah, man, that's a tough one to answer. I think

1002
01:05:59,040 --> 01:06:02,360
Speaker 4: we want. One thing that we have to do is

1003
01:06:02,400 --> 01:06:05,080
Speaker 4: we have to invest and this is gonna seem like

1004
01:06:05,120 --> 01:06:08,720
Speaker 4: a shameless self promotion or something that we have to

1005
01:06:08,720 --> 01:06:14,000
Speaker 4: invest in research because it research is at an objective

1006
01:06:14,040 --> 01:06:17,080
Speaker 4: attempt to try to gain the information we need to

1007
01:06:17,200 --> 01:06:18,160
Speaker 4: make this decision.

1008
01:06:18,560 --> 01:06:18,760
Speaker 3: Right.

1009
01:06:19,040 --> 01:06:21,760
Speaker 4: I think that's one thing we have to focus on.

1010
01:06:22,520 --> 01:06:26,240
Speaker 4: And you know, when I'm paying with a broad stroke

1011
01:06:26,280 --> 01:06:29,400
Speaker 4: when I talk about habitat, there are probably some listeners

1012
01:06:29,440 --> 01:06:33,000
Speaker 4: out there that have been, you know, killing themselves on

1013
01:06:33,040 --> 01:06:37,160
Speaker 4: their property to improve habitat, and they may have exceptional

1014
01:06:37,200 --> 01:06:42,280
Speaker 4: habitat that isn't what is on the landscape. But you know,

1015
01:06:42,520 --> 01:06:45,440
Speaker 4: there are landowners that are already doing all this stuff.

1016
01:06:45,840 --> 01:06:48,240
Speaker 4: Like I've been on properties where I don't know what

1017
01:06:48,280 --> 01:06:51,480
Speaker 4: else they can do. You know, I think that's an

1018
01:06:51,480 --> 01:06:54,080
Speaker 4: important thing for you to consider. But trying to find

1019
01:06:54,240 --> 01:06:59,400
Speaker 4: ways to get that to scale up so that it

1020
01:06:59,480 --> 01:07:02,880
Speaker 4: is the the norm on the landscape instead of an

1021
01:07:02,960 --> 01:07:06,560
Speaker 4: oddity is what we you know, what we really need

1022
01:07:06,600 --> 01:07:10,120
Speaker 4: to get to. And I don't know, uh, you know,

1023
01:07:10,120 --> 01:07:13,320
Speaker 4: if I'm in that situation, yours our situation, if that

1024
01:07:14,000 --> 01:07:18,520
Speaker 4: needs to be some sort of incentive or penalty, I

1025
01:07:18,520 --> 01:07:21,200
Speaker 4: don't think that's the way to do it. We don't

1026
01:07:21,320 --> 01:07:25,520
Speaker 4: respond well to that that type of but you know,

1027
01:07:25,800 --> 01:07:29,200
Speaker 4: we we have responded well to incentive based programs to

1028
01:07:29,240 --> 01:07:33,680
Speaker 4: get land owners to take actions that might otherwise not

1029
01:07:33,760 --> 01:07:37,200
Speaker 4: be in their their self interest, right like retiring some

1030
01:07:37,360 --> 01:07:40,960
Speaker 4: of the agricultural land so that it can better filter

1031
01:07:41,840 --> 01:07:47,320
Speaker 4: nutrients from getting into waterways. You know, we we we

1032
01:07:47,360 --> 01:07:51,920
Speaker 4: incentivize things like that. So maybe some type of program

1033
01:07:52,080 --> 01:07:58,560
Speaker 4: that incentivize people to create, you know, better nesting and

1034
01:07:58,600 --> 01:08:02,400
Speaker 4: brooding cover could be a way to circumvent that. I

1035
01:08:02,440 --> 01:08:07,880
Speaker 4: know that the research is necessary. Having some sort of

1036
01:08:07,880 --> 01:08:11,840
Speaker 4: of modifier of behavior is probably a necessary point. And

1037
01:08:11,880 --> 01:08:15,480
Speaker 4: then the other part is awareness, you know, trying to

1038
01:08:15,560 --> 01:08:19,760
Speaker 4: focus programming to reach people so that they're aware of

1039
01:08:19,840 --> 01:08:23,680
Speaker 4: the issue and they're aware of how to they can

1040
01:08:23,760 --> 01:08:26,439
Speaker 4: help with the issue. I think that's an important part

1041
01:08:26,479 --> 01:08:33,640
Speaker 4: of the the the puzzle there. So you know, I

1042
01:08:33,640 --> 01:08:36,559
Speaker 4: don't know exactly, I'd have to probably plan a little

1043
01:08:36,640 --> 01:08:40,680
Speaker 4: better than that's fair up here, but you know, I

1044
01:08:40,680 --> 01:08:44,000
Speaker 4: think those three elements would be pretty critical to trying

1045
01:08:44,040 --> 01:08:48,040
Speaker 4: to write the ship, so something, Yeah, go ahead.

1046
01:08:48,479 --> 01:08:50,120
Speaker 2: I was just gonna say, Marcus, I should have I

1047
01:08:50,160 --> 01:08:53,559
Speaker 2: should have set the stage back at the beginning of

1048
01:08:53,600 --> 01:08:56,160
Speaker 2: our conversation with this question. But I'll ask it now

1049
01:08:56,240 --> 01:09:00,280
Speaker 2: because late's better than never, Okay. I know you talked

1050
01:09:00,320 --> 01:09:03,200
Speaker 2: earlier that we're seeing anywhere from maybe ten percent to

1051
01:09:03,240 --> 01:09:06,800
Speaker 2: twenty five percent declines across parts of the United States

1052
01:09:06,800 --> 01:09:12,160
Speaker 2: when it comes to Turkey populations, Like, how how serious

1053
01:09:12,520 --> 01:09:14,920
Speaker 2: are those numbers? When you hear those numbers to you,

1054
01:09:15,080 --> 01:09:17,800
Speaker 2: is that like a five alarm, fire drill, like this

1055
01:09:17,840 --> 01:09:21,759
Speaker 2: is crisis mode or when you when we hear those numbers,

1056
01:09:21,840 --> 01:09:24,920
Speaker 2: is that like, well, yeah, this is concerning, but you know,

1057
01:09:25,320 --> 01:09:28,280
Speaker 2: populations fluctuate, these things happen. You know, this is something

1058
01:09:28,280 --> 01:09:30,160
Speaker 2: we need to be doing more research on. But let's

1059
01:09:30,160 --> 01:09:34,280
Speaker 2: not freak out, Like how how concerned should we be?

1060
01:09:34,560 --> 01:09:34,800
Speaker 4: Is this?

1061
01:09:35,439 --> 01:09:37,400
Speaker 2: You know, I guess on a scale of one to ten,

1062
01:09:37,560 --> 01:09:40,439
Speaker 2: ten being my hair's on fire, we should be really

1063
01:09:40,439 --> 01:09:42,400
Speaker 2: really worried about what's going on on a one to

1064
01:09:42,400 --> 01:09:44,920
Speaker 2: ten scale, what's your concern level?

1065
01:09:47,240 --> 01:09:52,200
Speaker 4: Uh, that's a great question. I have fluctuated on this.

1066
01:09:52,840 --> 01:09:57,439
Speaker 4: I think that we have calls for concern. We need

1067
01:09:57,439 --> 01:10:01,360
Speaker 4: to be aware. It has increased a awareness we're a

1068
01:10:01,600 --> 01:10:05,360
Speaker 4: part passionate group of people that want to do what

1069
01:10:05,439 --> 01:10:08,679
Speaker 4: they need to do to help. They're really they're willing

1070
01:10:08,760 --> 01:10:13,520
Speaker 4: to to take some loss, whether that be an opportunity

1071
01:10:13,840 --> 01:10:17,240
Speaker 4: or if they need to put more into practices or whatever.

1072
01:10:19,000 --> 01:10:19,200
Speaker 2: You know.

1073
01:10:19,320 --> 01:10:25,280
Speaker 4: I think that's great. The it's also initiated a lot

1074
01:10:25,280 --> 01:10:28,120
Speaker 4: of research which is really going to tell us the

1075
01:10:28,160 --> 01:10:31,680
Speaker 4: answer to your question, I think is how concerned do

1076
01:10:31,720 --> 01:10:35,760
Speaker 4: we need to be if it, you know, if it

1077
01:10:35,920 --> 01:10:40,559
Speaker 4: shakes out that this is a habitat issue that could

1078
01:10:40,560 --> 01:10:46,240
Speaker 4: be an issue because it's hard to change at scale. Right,

1079
01:10:46,920 --> 01:10:50,080
Speaker 4: we know how to do it, we don't know how

1080
01:10:50,160 --> 01:10:53,000
Speaker 4: to get it done, I think is the problem. And

1081
01:10:53,080 --> 01:10:57,000
Speaker 4: I'm more concerned if that's the issue, because it's so

1082
01:10:57,120 --> 01:10:58,960
Speaker 4: hard to deal with at scale.

1083
01:11:00,360 --> 01:11:00,719
Speaker 2: Uh.

1084
01:11:00,800 --> 01:11:08,519
Speaker 4: So, you know, I'm probably in the six or seven range,

1085
01:11:08,600 --> 01:11:13,880
Speaker 4: I guess, because I think there's reason more reason than

1086
01:11:13,960 --> 01:11:18,760
Speaker 4: not to be concerned. But I also don't. I think

1087
01:11:18,840 --> 01:11:22,880
Speaker 4: we are seeing the things happen, like investment in research

1088
01:11:22,960 --> 01:11:28,519
Speaker 4: and outreach that we need, uh you know, to to

1089
01:11:28,560 --> 01:11:30,840
Speaker 4: figure out what's going on and figure out a way

1090
01:11:30,880 --> 01:11:35,200
Speaker 4: to fix it. And we've already demonstrated in many places

1091
01:11:35,280 --> 01:11:41,519
Speaker 4: that the community is willing to change seasons if they

1092
01:11:41,720 --> 01:11:45,080
Speaker 4: if that's what it takes, or they are willing to

1093
01:11:46,960 --> 01:11:50,840
Speaker 4: aggressively start managing habitat. We're seeing that in some places,

1094
01:11:52,240 --> 01:11:55,559
Speaker 4: you know, people care about the resource and that that

1095
01:11:56,280 --> 01:11:59,640
Speaker 4: you know, That's why I'm not more concerned. I know

1096
01:11:59,760 --> 01:12:02,200
Speaker 4: that we have a group of people that we're ready

1097
01:12:02,200 --> 01:12:04,280
Speaker 4: to get this done. We just need to know what

1098
01:12:04,320 --> 01:12:04,639
Speaker 4: to do.

1099
01:12:05,960 --> 01:12:10,840
Speaker 2: So, Yeah, highly incentivized community, So that is that is

1100
01:12:10,880 --> 01:12:11,360
Speaker 2: a good thing.

1101
01:12:11,800 --> 01:12:14,320
Speaker 4: Yeah, And I get it. I mean, I'm I am

1102
01:12:14,400 --> 01:12:19,160
Speaker 4: sitting here because of a turkey gobble. When I was

1103
01:12:19,200 --> 01:12:22,639
Speaker 4: a little kid. It was an experience with my dad

1104
01:12:23,880 --> 01:12:29,800
Speaker 4: hunting turkeys that set me on this path. So you know,

1105
01:12:29,960 --> 01:12:33,040
Speaker 4: think about that when you're taking your kid, like you know,

1106
01:12:33,280 --> 01:12:37,280
Speaker 4: it has made me dedicate my life to conserving this

1107
01:12:37,400 --> 01:12:40,200
Speaker 4: resource so that other people can have that opportunity.

1108
01:12:42,160 --> 01:12:45,280
Speaker 2: So so true, so important to remember that and keep.

1109
01:12:45,160 --> 01:12:45,719
Speaker 3: That in mind.

1110
01:12:46,120 --> 01:12:52,880
Speaker 2: And yeah, I can't beat that. Yeah, So, Marcus, uh,

1111
01:12:53,640 --> 01:12:56,120
Speaker 2: this has been a I think for a lot of folks,

1112
01:12:56,120 --> 01:12:59,760
Speaker 2: a really helpful introduction to where things stand today with

1113
01:12:59,800 --> 01:13:00,360
Speaker 2: their turkeys.

1114
01:13:00,960 --> 01:13:02,320
Speaker 3: For anyone who's been happily.

1115
01:13:02,120 --> 01:13:04,599
Speaker 2: Hunting them for years but maybe hasn't been as tapped

1116
01:13:04,600 --> 01:13:07,880
Speaker 2: into the news or the science of things, this is

1117
01:13:07,920 --> 01:13:10,679
Speaker 2: a great primer. But I know there's gonna be people

1118
01:13:10,680 --> 01:13:13,960
Speaker 2: listening to this who want more, who are interested in

1119
01:13:14,040 --> 01:13:18,559
Speaker 2: diving deeper, and you've got You've got the thing for

1120
01:13:18,600 --> 01:13:21,080
Speaker 2: people if they want that. Can you fill our listeners

1121
01:13:21,120 --> 01:13:23,880
Speaker 2: in on how they can connect with you and also

1122
01:13:24,439 --> 01:13:28,040
Speaker 2: get some more turkey know how from your podcast anywhere else?

1123
01:13:28,600 --> 01:13:33,080
Speaker 4: Yeah? Sure, Yeah, I appreciate that. Mark. So I'm a

1124
01:13:33,360 --> 01:13:36,439
Speaker 4: co host of the Wild Turkey Science podcast, and it's

1125
01:13:36,560 --> 01:13:42,479
Speaker 4: really that I mean it. It formed because there's concern

1126
01:13:42,560 --> 01:13:46,240
Speaker 4: about the species. We don't know what to do exactly,

1127
01:13:46,479 --> 01:13:49,599
Speaker 4: and it might vary based on where you're at. And

1128
01:13:50,040 --> 01:13:52,640
Speaker 4: there's all this research going on and a lot of

1129
01:13:52,680 --> 01:13:55,479
Speaker 4: people I'm guessing that are listening might not even know

1130
01:13:55,880 --> 01:13:58,559
Speaker 4: that there's active research going on in their own state.

1131
01:13:59,200 --> 01:13:59,720
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1132
01:13:59,840 --> 01:14:03,479
Speaker 4: The point of that podcast was not only to lay

1133
01:14:03,520 --> 01:14:06,800
Speaker 4: out what issues there are based on the published literature,

1134
01:14:07,080 --> 01:14:09,680
Speaker 4: but also connect people in near real time to the

1135
01:14:09,720 --> 01:14:12,599
Speaker 4: work going on in their state. We interview people from

1136
01:14:12,680 --> 01:14:16,799
Speaker 4: all over the US, a lot of researchers and wildlife

1137
01:14:16,800 --> 01:14:22,439
Speaker 4: biologists that are all focused on turkeys, and we have

1138
01:14:23,120 --> 01:14:29,599
Speaker 4: various topics. In fact, if you're interested in in learning

1139
01:14:29,680 --> 01:14:31,960
Speaker 4: more like I can't cover everything in an hour, right,

1140
01:14:32,280 --> 01:14:35,080
Speaker 4: but if you want some intense information on what you

1141
01:14:35,080 --> 01:14:39,639
Speaker 4: can do on your property to improve habitat or various

1142
01:14:39,720 --> 01:14:43,400
Speaker 4: other things, we have episodes episode twenty nine and thirty

1143
01:14:43,439 --> 01:14:46,240
Speaker 4: on Wild Turkey Science. We talk about how to manage

1144
01:14:46,240 --> 01:14:50,000
Speaker 4: fields for brooding cover. It's probably the best resource out

1145
01:14:50,040 --> 01:14:52,559
Speaker 4: there and we had the best person in the business

1146
01:14:52,920 --> 01:14:56,000
Speaker 4: on the show to talk about it. And it's about

1147
01:14:56,040 --> 01:14:59,000
Speaker 4: the you know, it will teach you how to make

1148
01:14:59,040 --> 01:15:03,479
Speaker 4: brooding cover fields. So we also have a YouTube channel.

1149
01:15:03,560 --> 01:15:05,280
Speaker 4: We put a lot of videos like the one you

1150
01:15:05,360 --> 01:15:08,400
Speaker 4: mentioned where we you know, if you don't know what

1151
01:15:08,560 --> 01:15:11,519
Speaker 4: nesting cover looks like, we have a video that will

1152
01:15:11,560 --> 01:15:14,160
Speaker 4: show you what every hen was nesting in and what

1153
01:15:14,200 --> 01:15:16,280
Speaker 4: it looked like and whether or not she was successful.

1154
01:15:16,960 --> 01:15:20,000
Speaker 4: So you know, there are resources through a YouTube channel

1155
01:15:20,000 --> 01:15:25,920
Speaker 4: at ufder Lab the I also have an Instagram account

1156
01:15:26,040 --> 01:15:28,240
Speaker 4: that I'm very active on it, and I share all

1157
01:15:28,320 --> 01:15:32,599
Speaker 4: kinds of of how to type information and science that's

1158
01:15:32,640 --> 01:15:37,479
Speaker 4: going on, especially on turkeys. Occasionally I share something about deer,

1159
01:15:37,560 --> 01:15:41,640
Speaker 4: but I focus a lot on turkeys. That's doctor disturbance.

1160
01:15:41,880 --> 01:15:45,800
Speaker 4: So i'd encourage you if you're if you're really interested

1161
01:15:45,840 --> 01:15:48,120
Speaker 4: in turkeys and you want to know how to manage them,

1162
01:15:48,200 --> 01:15:50,679
Speaker 4: or you want to understand the problem or what's going

1163
01:15:50,720 --> 01:15:53,559
Speaker 4: on in your state, you know, to tap into those

1164
01:15:53,600 --> 01:15:56,439
Speaker 4: resources because that's what we're looking for, is just to make

1165
01:15:56,479 --> 01:15:57,519
Speaker 4: it available to you. All.

1166
01:15:58,479 --> 01:16:01,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, I can't I can't recommend those enough.

1167
01:16:02,120 --> 01:16:05,120
Speaker 2: I've been very impressed with the podcast and what you're

1168
01:16:05,120 --> 01:16:07,200
Speaker 2: sharing there in the YouTube channel as well. I've spent

1169
01:16:07,439 --> 01:16:10,639
Speaker 2: a pretty decent amount of time checking that stuff out,

1170
01:16:10,680 --> 01:16:13,840
Speaker 2: and there's a lot so anyone, anyone who wants to

1171
01:16:13,840 --> 01:16:16,920
Speaker 2: dive in further, I have to second everything you said, Marcus.

1172
01:16:16,920 --> 01:16:20,240
Speaker 3: There's a wealth of information there for folks. So yeah,

1173
01:16:20,280 --> 01:16:21,040
Speaker 3: well that all said.

1174
01:16:21,720 --> 01:16:23,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, I just really appreciate you taking the time here

1175
01:16:23,960 --> 01:16:27,760
Speaker 2: on a Friday afternoon to regale me with our situation

1176
01:16:28,120 --> 01:16:30,400
Speaker 2: and to help I think, point us all in the

1177
01:16:30,400 --> 01:16:32,479
Speaker 2: direction where we can learn more and be a part

1178
01:16:32,479 --> 01:16:32,960
Speaker 2: of the solution.

1179
01:16:33,600 --> 01:16:36,679
Speaker 4: Yeah, yep, thanks for having me. I appreciate everybody out.

1180
01:16:36,520 --> 01:16:41,240
Speaker 2: There, all right, thank you for tuning in, Appreciate you

1181
01:16:41,320 --> 01:16:45,160
Speaker 2: being here with us. Make sure you study up more

1182
01:16:45,240 --> 01:16:48,080
Speaker 2: on what Marcus is sharing over at the Wild Turkey Podcast.

1183
01:16:48,120 --> 01:16:51,760
Speaker 3: He has much much more to share. I've genuinely enjoyed.

1184
01:16:51,400 --> 01:16:54,240
Speaker 2: What I've learned from him, and when it comes to turkeys,

1185
01:16:54,560 --> 01:16:56,200
Speaker 2: I think we all just need to stay up to

1186
01:16:56,280 --> 01:16:59,439
Speaker 2: date on what's happening, continue to follow the research, and

1187
01:16:59,479 --> 01:17:01,640
Speaker 2: continue to find ways that we can make sure that

1188
01:17:01,680 --> 01:17:04,600
Speaker 2: we do the right things to keep turkeys around in

1189
01:17:04,680 --> 01:17:05,559
Speaker 2: the long term.

1190
01:17:05,640 --> 01:17:06,720
Speaker 3: So thank you for joining me.

1191
01:17:07,040 --> 01:17:11,280
Speaker 2: Until next time, Stay wired, Talk