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Speaker 1: The mainstream media today is out of touch and out

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Speaker 1: of control. We see dishonest reporting meant to push self

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Speaker 1: serving narratives, cozy relationships between the press and the powerful

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Speaker 1: elites of society, and no accountability when they get it

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Speaker 1: wrong or get caught. This has been going on for

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Speaker 1: a while, but it became apparent when Trump ran for

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Speaker 1: president in twenty sixteen, accelerated and became undeniable during the

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Speaker 1: presidential election, and COVID pandemic in twenty twenty, and is

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Speaker 1: now moving at breakneck speed. We've seen collusion and censorship.

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Speaker 1: We've seen American citizens docked, intimidated and silenced. We've seen

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Speaker 1: the Biden administration, big tech, and mainstream media gaslight the

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Speaker 1: American people, and many Americans are left wondering what to

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Speaker 1: believe anymore. Well, my guest today has spent his entire

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Speaker 1: life in the media, from starting off as a self

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Speaker 1: described journalism nerd in high school to working at CNN, FOX, NBC,

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Speaker 1: The Blaze. Steve Krackauer is his name, and he's a

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Speaker 1: journalist and media critic, and he's the author of the

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Speaker 1: brand new book Uncovered. How the Media got Cozy with

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Speaker 1: Power abandoned its principles and lost the people. Steve is

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Speaker 1: unbelievably brilliant with this stuff, and he's probably forgotten more

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Speaker 1: about the media industry in this country than I'll ever

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Speaker 1: learn in my lifetime. Steve and I discussed the state

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Speaker 1: of journalism today in the media and how we got here,

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Speaker 1: the dangers and fallout of an unaccountable media establishment, and

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Speaker 1: most importantly.

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Speaker 2: How we can fix it.

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Speaker 1: So this was a fascinating, fascinating interview, and I hope

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Speaker 1: you enjoyed as much as I did. Without further ado,

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Speaker 1: ladies and gentlemen, my discuss with Steve Krackout. Steve, thank

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Speaker 1: you so much for coming on Battleground and talking with

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Speaker 1: us about your latest book, Uncovered, How the media got

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Speaker 1: cozy with power, abandon its principles and lost to people,

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Speaker 1: and just for everybody he's watching or listening.

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Speaker 2: I read this book cover to cover.

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Speaker 1: I also listened to the audio book, which is obviously

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Speaker 1: if you're an audiobook person, which a lot of people

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Speaker 1: are in this day and age, it's pretty damn awesome

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Speaker 1: because you get to, like, not only do you get

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Speaker 1: the benefit of actually hearing you read the actual book

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Speaker 1: itself in your voice, you actually hear these interviews with

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Speaker 1: these journalists that you talk to, like Tucker Carlson or

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Speaker 1: Kaylie mcinnerney or Ben Smith, Peers Morgan or like one

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Speaker 1: of my all time favorites, Selena Zito, and many many

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Speaker 1: more like you've just this is a rigorous book. And

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Speaker 1: what I always used to tell people in the army,

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Speaker 1: Steve is like, as a commander, like, don't just come

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Speaker 1: to me bitching, griping and moaning about something. Come to

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Speaker 1: me with the issue, a discussion, and a recommendation. And

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Speaker 1: what I loved about this book is not only do

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Speaker 1: you have five very clear things that the media is

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Speaker 1: not doing so well, you also give a recommendation on

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Speaker 1: how to fix it.

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Speaker 3: I try to Yeah, that's the that's the goal, because

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Speaker 3: you know, as I lay out in the book, I

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Speaker 3: think that the media is very broken, the corporate media.

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Speaker 3: It was. It was not perfect when in the days

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Speaker 3: when I was at CNN in twenty ten to twenty thirteen,

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Speaker 3: by any means, there was valid criticisms. But it's gotten

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Speaker 3: significantly worse. And I think it's been It's obvious to

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Speaker 3: most people, you know, even people that are apolitical. You know,

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Speaker 3: I live in Texas. Most of the people I interact

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Speaker 3: with on a daily basis are not interested in politics

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Speaker 3: as a hobby or interested even in the media as

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Speaker 3: a hobby. They watch it because they want to know

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Speaker 3: what's going on in the world, and they can see it.

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Speaker 3: They can't necessarily see why it happened or how it's happening,

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Speaker 3: but they can feel so thing fundamentally change and they've

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Speaker 3: lost trust in these places that they maybe had even

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Speaker 3: ten years ago, some degree of trust. And so I

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Speaker 3: do try to lay that out. And first of all,

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Speaker 3: I'll have to say thank you on the audiobook side,

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Speaker 3: because I do. It was something that was really important

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Speaker 3: to me, was every conversation I had in the book

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Speaker 3: twenty six interviews that I do with people across the spectrum,

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Speaker 3: as you mentioned, a lot of people from Fox News,

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Speaker 3: people from NBC, people from the New York Times and beyond.

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Speaker 3: Everything is on the record, first of all, so there's

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Speaker 3: no anonymous sources in there. And not only that, but

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Speaker 3: I've recorded all these conversations and the audience could hear

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Speaker 3: these the people in their own voices give all the

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Speaker 3: quotes that they give in the audiobook. If you choose

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Speaker 3: that route.

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Speaker 1: I mean, it's so I mean, you've clearly forgotten more

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Speaker 1: about the media than I could have even hope to remember, Steve.

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Speaker 1: I mean, but you've done it all. I mean, like

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Speaker 1: you've worked for CNN and now you're an executive producer

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Speaker 1: for Megan Kelly, and you've done all sorts of stuff

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Speaker 1: in between. It seems like you know everybody. And as

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Speaker 1: I mentioned, there are five clear things in this book

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Speaker 1: that you talk about that the media just doesn't do

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Speaker 1: very well, one of which is geographic bias, lack of introspection,

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Speaker 1: coziness with power, broken financial incentives and influencers, and anti

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Speaker 1: speech activism. And we could probably do twenty four hours

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Speaker 1: on all of this stuff, and I'm so interested in it.

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Speaker 1: But like, before we get into any of that, how

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Speaker 1: did you get into this? Like where are you from?

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Speaker 2: And how did you? How did you?

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Speaker 1: Because one of the things that blew me away about

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Speaker 1: you is like learning about all the information that you

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Speaker 1: know about this stuff. Steve, you clearly love and have

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Speaker 1: an affinity for the media. You don't want to burn

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Speaker 1: it all down, right, you think it clearly you see

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Speaker 1: in the vital role that the media plays in this country.

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Speaker 1: But what like, what about this profession attracted you in

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Speaker 1: the first place.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I was a journalism nerd from back in high school.

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Speaker 3: To be honest, my.

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Speaker 2: First place, what's a journalism nerd?

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Speaker 3: I went to a camp after my junior high school

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Speaker 3: for journalism.

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Speaker 2: Ever, one of those guys I.

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Speaker 3: Was, I was, I mean, I I really I ate

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Speaker 3: it up. And my first job in when I was

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Speaker 3: in high school, I was working at my local town paper.

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Speaker 3: I worked in this little town in New Jersey. We

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Speaker 3: had a weekly paper that came out I in this

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Speaker 3: summer I covered men's softball leagues that I'd go and

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Speaker 3: I'd get paid twenty dollars if they ran my article.

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Speaker 3: And yeah, it was funny here I did. Yeah, I knew.

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Speaker 3: I knew early on I was very interested in journalism.

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Speaker 3: Went to Syracuse University and knew how school, the journalism

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Speaker 3: school there, and really from really from that moment, you know,

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Speaker 3: fifteen sixteen years old, was very interested in it. And

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Speaker 3: at the same time, you know, I mentioned I was

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Speaker 3: grew up in New Jersey, went to school at Syracuse

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Speaker 3: in New York. I lived in New York City for

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Speaker 3: many years, working at a variety of outlet's covering the media.

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Speaker 3: That's where I kind of really got to know a

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Speaker 3: lot of the people in the media. Was working at

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Speaker 3: sites like Mediaite, which I helped launch in two thousand

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Speaker 3: and then working at CNN and then The Blaze. And

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Speaker 3: at the Blaze, I ended up moving down to Dallas

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Speaker 3: where we have a big office. Where we had a

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Speaker 3: big office Glenn Beck, Glennbeck's company there. They were based

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Speaker 3: in New York and based in Dallas. I moved with

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Speaker 3: my wife in twenty fourteen down to Dallas. So I've

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Speaker 3: been here for nine years now, and frankly, you ask,

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Speaker 3: where's the genesis of this? Also is I love journalism.

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Speaker 3: But by getting outside of that literal bubble, the New

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Speaker 3: York and DC bubble, opened my eyes in a lot

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Speaker 3: of ways. And after the Blaze, I really stepped outside

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Speaker 3: of the media overall. I had my own company, I

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Speaker 3: worked in a marketing agency, and I was viewing this

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Speaker 3: very strange to me moment in twenty fifteen and even

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Speaker 3: going back a little bit earlier and then twenty sixteen

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Speaker 3: and what happened with Trump, but far beyond Trump too,

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Speaker 3: and trying to diagnose what was happening because it was

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Speaker 3: so foreign to what I was viewing, to what the

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Speaker 3: people that I encounter are experiencing and I think about

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Speaker 3: it a lot. Sean, if I was still at CNN,

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Speaker 3: if I still lived in New York, would I have

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Speaker 3: been able to see frankly, what I was able to

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Speaker 3: see and put into uncovered, I don't know. I think

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Speaker 3: I may have gotten caught up in a lot of

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Speaker 3: this also, So it was being physically outside of that

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Speaker 3: that was able to I think open my eyes to

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Speaker 3: a little bit and try to diagnose this from a

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Speaker 3: position of love, in some ways tough love and trying

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Speaker 3: to get it better, because I think we do need

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Speaker 3: a strong media, but we just don't have it right now.

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Speaker 1: I mean so clear that you love and respect your profession,

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Speaker 1: and it makes a lot of sense that you were

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Speaker 1: one of those kids that was going to journalism summer camps.

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Speaker 1: Like so much makes sense now about this book because

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Speaker 1: it does seem like you really do love the profession

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Speaker 1: and you want to see it improve. And so you

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Speaker 1: were like a Blaze guy. You were one of the

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Speaker 1: Blaze farm team, so to speak, because in twenty fourteen,

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Speaker 1: like one of my first forays into the media, one

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Speaker 1: of my first experiences with television.

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Speaker 2: Media was the Blaze and it was.

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Speaker 1: Real News, and Sexton was there, yeah, yeah, and Will

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Speaker 1: Caine was there, and Pete Hegseth was there, and so

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Speaker 1: many people.

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Speaker 2: So many people were there, and you were there as well.

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Speaker 2: We must have just missed each other.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. So I was there in the sense that I

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Speaker 3: was a producer. My job title at the Blaze was

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Speaker 3: Vice President of Digital Content. I was fully behind the scenes.

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Speaker 3: I worked really closely with people like Buck and Will

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Speaker 3: Kane in particular. Yeah. On basically my job was to

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Speaker 3: you know, there was loosely television, you know, Real News

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Speaker 3: aired at six pm every night on The Blaze. It

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Speaker 3: was a streaming network and very early in the process. Frankly,

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Speaker 3: I think they were early in what was to come

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Speaker 3: with like the netflixes up the world, the whole business model.

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Speaker 3: But then it was like, well, what can we do

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Speaker 3: to expand our reach through YouTube, through social media? Working

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Speaker 3: with people like Will and Buck and Tara Setmeyer was

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Speaker 3: there and se Cup people that have gotten in other directions,

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Speaker 3: let's say, and expand their personal brands. What else do

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Speaker 3: you want to do? What can we put on YouTube?

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Speaker 3: What can we put on other platforms? So, yeah, it

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Speaker 3: was it was interesting and you know, obviously I was

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Speaker 3: at CNN, I worked for Beers Morgan, I worked very

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Speaker 3: closely with Jeff Zucker, and then I was at The Blaze.

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Speaker 3: I worked very closely with Glenn Beck. I'm not an

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Speaker 3: overly political person one way or the other. I think

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Speaker 3: it is probably clear I've got personal opinions, but I

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Speaker 3: mean I'm a registered independent. I don't, you know, see

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Speaker 3: this as an ideological thing. I think that it's beyond that,

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Speaker 3: and I try to also look for the best in people.

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Speaker 3: That's another thing is I think there's so much judgment

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Speaker 3: in especially in the corporate media, and I think that

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Speaker 3: generally the average person in America is a good person

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Speaker 3: and they are not being reflected and served well by

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Speaker 3: a media that has such disdain for them. Frankly on

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Speaker 3: the right or the left.

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Speaker 1: I completely agree with you and so much of this book,

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Speaker 1: and the thesis that the underlying thesis of it all

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Speaker 1: is that you talk about the media at least over

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Speaker 1: the last twenty years or so in the way at

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Speaker 1: least it broke down in my mind, was that you

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Speaker 1: talk about like from twenty ten up to basically twenty sixteen.

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Speaker 1: And in twenty sixteen somebody came along named Donald Trump.

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Speaker 1: That sort of shifted everything in many ways you talk.

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Speaker 2: About in the book.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, the media was probably always democratic, maybe always leaned

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Speaker 1: left a little bit. But when Trump came along, man,

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Speaker 1: it's like it seemed like the media abandoned so many

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Speaker 1: of the principles that of what make the media what

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Speaker 1: it is important to the people, and basically speaking truth

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Speaker 1: the power and being a guard dog of our republic

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Speaker 1: and our democracy, to just like a rabid focus on

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Speaker 1: Donald Trump, in part because like maybe he was good

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Speaker 1: for ratings and that was good for some of these

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Speaker 1: networks in their bottom line, but talk about that. And

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Speaker 1: in that shift, Donald Trump was just like a paradigm shifter.

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Speaker 2: I guess he was.

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Speaker 3: I think it was in a void that was perhaps

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Speaker 3: already created I think through through social media, through the

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Speaker 3: incentive structure. There there was fear in not saying the

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Speaker 3: wrong thing and covering something in a way that was

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Speaker 3: you know, might get you backlash on Twitter. So that

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Speaker 3: already existed. And then as you mentioned, yeah, now comes

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Speaker 3: Donald Trump down the escalator and and and just completely

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Speaker 3: upsets everything. And I lay out and uncovered in chapter five,

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Speaker 3: which I call the Trump Addiction, because I do think

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Speaker 3: it's an addiction. I think that there's something that they

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Speaker 3: almost can't control that they're feeling for him, and and

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Speaker 3: you know, hatred in one way, love in another way,

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Speaker 3: and trying to diagnose what it is that that happened here.

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Speaker 3: And it's kind of three things. I think that there

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Speaker 3: there absolutely was. It was business on one level of it. Yes,

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Speaker 3: he was great for ratings, it was great for clicks,

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Speaker 3: he was great subscribers. That's that's absolutely a part of it.

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Speaker 3: But then on an addition, you know, it's also personal.

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Speaker 3: And I talk about this with so many different people.

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Speaker 3: It's business and personal. Because Donald Trump was you have

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Speaker 3: to understand he was in that media environment. This is

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Speaker 3: a guy in nineteen eighty seven who writes The Art

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Speaker 3: of the Deal, which is a fascinating book for anyone

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Speaker 3: who wants to understand. Here we go again. By the way,

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Speaker 3: I mean, this is all going to be repeated as

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Speaker 3: for finding out, So it's never too late to read

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Speaker 3: art and understand what is happening here. Because he controlled

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Speaker 3: the media to such an extent, he's part of that world.

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Speaker 3: This is a guy who was married in two thousand

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Speaker 3: and five, and Jeff Zucker was there and Katie Kuric

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Speaker 3: was there, and Gail King was there, and Chris Matthews.

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Speaker 3: This is I mean, you know, The Apprentice was an

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Speaker 3: enormous hit show. He hosted Saturday Night Live in twenty fifteen.

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Speaker 3: So he's part of that world. And then he becomes

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Speaker 3: his turncoat to the world, you know, he becomes a

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Speaker 3: he exposes that world in a lot of ways. Again

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Speaker 3: a reminder, Hillary Clinton and Bill Clinton were at that

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Speaker 3: wedding in two thousand and five, and so were all

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Speaker 3: this out as well. Yeah, so he was very much

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Speaker 3: connected in that way. And then I also think though,

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Speaker 3: because you think, well, all that still is not a

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Speaker 3: reason to completely abandon these principles. But what I heard

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Speaker 3: from people who were in these newsrooms during the Trump

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Speaker 3: years was that they believed some people really did believe

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Speaker 3: they were in this existential fight to save democracy. That

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Speaker 3: they Donald Trump was this huge and I think it's

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Speaker 3: completely ridiculous. I'm sure a lot of people think it's ridiculous.

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Speaker 3: But what I would say to that is, if you

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Speaker 3: really believe this, I mean, let's just grant that that's

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Speaker 3: the case. That's when you need to double down on

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Speaker 3: your principles even more. You know, that's when you need

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Speaker 3: to to really be as strong and your you know,

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Speaker 3: instincts and in your journalistic ability and your integrity so

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Speaker 3: that you can convince the widest number of people that

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Speaker 3: he's this great threat. But instead they went the other direction.

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Speaker 3: Then the guardrails were completely off. You know, they said, oh,

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Speaker 3: we have to meet this moment and so we must

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Speaker 3: now give monologues in our news programs. No, that that's

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Speaker 3: going the opposite way, and it just destroyed the trust

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Speaker 3: of the average viewer and reader.

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Speaker 2: I mean, what do you think created this? Oh?

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Speaker 1: I mean people call it Trump derangement syndrome, and I'm

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Speaker 1: sure that you've heard that, but like, what do you

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Speaker 1: think What I found fascinating is it just what you

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Speaker 1: talked about. All these people from George Stephanopoulos to Hillary

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Speaker 1: Clinton and Bill Clinton and Katie Kirk, all these people

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Speaker 1: were at his wedding and prior to Donald Trump running

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Speaker 1: for office. I mean, celebrities were lining up around the

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Speaker 1: block to go to his parties and be a part

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Speaker 1: of the world that he created. And another thing that

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Speaker 1: I found fascinating about your book is is at his

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Speaker 1: relationship with Zucker right where Zucker was working at NBC

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Speaker 1: and how Donald Trump was being prior to running for president,

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Speaker 1: or at least the second time.

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Speaker 2: I think he ran for president one time before that

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Speaker 2: or whatever. But he was teased at yeah, yeah, I

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Speaker 2: teased it.

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Speaker 1: They were propping him up to be the face of NBC.

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Speaker 1: And so in wait, like, so Jeff Zucker and Donald

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Speaker 1: Trump almost they work, they created each other, and then

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Speaker 1: they find themselves on opposite ends of the spectrum. When

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Speaker 1: Zucker is at CNN going to war with Donald Trump

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Speaker 1: and Donald Trump at war with CNN, it was just like,

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Speaker 1: how the hell does that happen?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, well, and it's important to remember also the primary process,

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Speaker 3: because they really were not at odds right away in

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Speaker 3: twenty fifty.

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Speaker 2: So true, that's right.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, Jeff Zucker got a lot of criticism

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Speaker 3: from the left for the empty podium and just the

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Speaker 3: NonStop coverage of the speeches. And again I think it's

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Speaker 3: potentially happening again. Jeff Zucker is not there, but CNN

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Speaker 3: and other outlets are are certainly devoting of oxygen all

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Speaker 3: of their attention to Donald Trump right now. But so

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Speaker 3: it didn't start that way. And in fact, there was

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Speaker 3: a story that I cite that I believe it was

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Speaker 3: Tucker Carlson that broke the news that Jeff Zucker was

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Speaker 3: having conversation with Michael Cohen, who at the time was

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Speaker 3: still on the Trump side, about how when Donald Trump,

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Speaker 3: you know, loses to Hillary Clinton, maybe we'll give him

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Speaker 3: a show on CNN. I mean, that was the mentality,

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Speaker 3: and the belief was, which they turned out to be wrong,

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Speaker 3: was that he would be easy to beat. Put prop

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Speaker 3: him up, make him this great star of the media,

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Speaker 3: get all the attention, make him the GOP nominee, and

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Speaker 3: then have him nicely lose to Hillary Clinton and go

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Speaker 3: off in the sunset and we can move on with

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Speaker 3: our lives. Well, November twenty sixteen came and there's people,

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Speaker 3: as I've reported, also crying in the newsroom about this.

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Speaker 3: I mean, it was not just that they were sad

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Speaker 3: that Donald Trump won. It was that they believed that

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Speaker 3: there was a zero percent chance in these people's minds

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Speaker 3: that it was even possible. And it shows how completely

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Speaker 3: out of touch they were with the entire mood of

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Speaker 3: the country that they didn't even conceive that it was possible.

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Speaker 1: I mean, what doesn't that support like one of the

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Speaker 1: whole point of geographic bias, which, by the way, by

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Speaker 1: the way from western Pennsylvania, born and raised my entire life.

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Speaker 1: I fell into that as well a little bit. I mean,

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Speaker 1: in twenty sixteen, I backed Mark Rubio. I liked the

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Speaker 1: idea of a younger conservative, the new face of the

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Speaker 1: Republican Party running for president. And if you remember in

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Speaker 1: the South Carolina primary, I was down there with Mark Rubio.

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Speaker 1: The dude must have knocked thousands of doors, had an

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Speaker 1: unrivaled ground game, and you pull out or like leaving.

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Speaker 1: And if you remember back then, like Marco, Rubio had

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Speaker 1: to win South Carolina, right, had to to stay in

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Speaker 1: the race or to even have any shot at the nomination.

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Speaker 1: And I mean he pulled out all the stops there, Steve,

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Speaker 1: and we're pulling out, you know, as campaign buses do.

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Speaker 1: And like all there are all these staffers and volunteers everywhere,

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Speaker 1: like running into McDonald's or going into gas stations and

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Speaker 1: getting drinks or whatever. And I like see this like

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Speaker 1: little Donald Trump headquarters, and I like walk in there,

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Speaker 1: and I'm like, what's all this about? You know, because

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Speaker 1: it didn't matter what what Mark Rubio said or did,

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Speaker 1: or any Republican that was running against him is like

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Speaker 1: the teflon dawn thing, right, nothing.

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Speaker 2: Stocked to him. And I walk in there, there's like one.

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Speaker 1: Old dude there with like forty iPads, and I'm like,

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Speaker 1: what the hell is happening. Clearly I'm missing something. The

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Speaker 1: media is missing something. And then I went back to

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Speaker 1: Pennsylvania and drove all around the state and you know,

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Speaker 1: saw signs and writing an article in the Hill about

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Speaker 1: Donald Trump's gonna win, right, And of course I got

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Speaker 1: attacked by all of the people that you call Essela media,

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Speaker 1: and which, by the way, people in New York City

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Speaker 1: take the train to DC and back and forth, and

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Speaker 1: so Escela media is the train that they take, the Essella, right,

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Speaker 1: And I did it.

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Speaker 3: I did it myself many many times.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so it's a very appropriate name.

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Speaker 1: And of course I'm like, oh, there are signs everywhere, which,

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Speaker 1: of course all of that's anecdotal, right, but I'm like,

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Speaker 1: there's just something in the air that people were missing.

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Speaker 2: I'm like, Trump was gonna win, and I got attacked.

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Speaker 1: We're like, that's just bullshit, that's anecdotal crap, Like you

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Speaker 1: don't know what you're talking about.

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Speaker 2: I'm like, okay, and sure, sure enough in twenty sixty

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Speaker 2: eighty one.

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Speaker 3: So so I mean, and you know, it's fascinating. I also,

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Speaker 3: you know, you can sure it's a sample size of

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Speaker 3: one or a couple. But I had those those same

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Speaker 3: sort of moments that that were eye opening to me.

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Speaker 3: I had an h VAC repair guy come to my

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Speaker 3: house in twenty fifteen. This was before the primary process

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Speaker 3: even started. But Donald Trump's running and there's other people running,

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Speaker 3: and it was sort of a joke. And he says

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Speaker 3: to me, he's like, hey, what did you know. I

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Speaker 3: told him I work in media, And I said, what

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Speaker 3: do you think bout Donald Trump? I was, you know,

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Speaker 3: I don't know, what do you think? He said, Well,

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Speaker 3: I'm gonna I'm gonna vote for him. He said, i'mnna

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Speaker 3: vote for him because'm in it. With one vote, I

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Speaker 3: can piss off both parties. That's exactly right. Yeah, that's

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Speaker 3: exactly right. And so that was one and then the

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Speaker 3: other one. I went to this dinner party. You know,

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Speaker 3: Dallas is a pretty fifty to fifty city, you know,

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Speaker 3: red and blue. I went to dinner party. It was

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Speaker 3: I have a lot of gay friends here. This was

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Speaker 3: I was sitting next to gay, married couple and they

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Speaker 3: were huge Trump supporters. These are guys, you know, and

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Speaker 3: and I was just talking about what they're why they

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Speaker 3: were what they were, why they were excited to wrote

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Speaker 3: vote for him, and and it was eye opening to

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Speaker 3: me because these these people are you know, are not

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Speaker 3: reflected in your average cable news pundit battle that's going

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Speaker 3: on in twenty sixteen. It was completely unreflective of it.

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Speaker 3: And you mentioned Selena Zido earlier in the way that

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Speaker 3: she really got the mood of the country and she's

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Speaker 3: a great bell weather also for it, because you know,

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Speaker 3: I talked to Selena for the book about how she

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Speaker 3: was initially hired by CNN because there was this brief

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Speaker 3: moment of introspection after the election that said, wow, we

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Speaker 3: really miss something like let's get Selena in here, hire

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Speaker 3: her as a contributor for four years. And that initially,

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Speaker 3: you know, she told me, and she's never told the

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Speaker 3: story before that she was put in front of the

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Speaker 3: entire newsroom and was interviewed about basically what they missed,

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Speaker 3: and there was a she was getting booked on shows.

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Speaker 3: But she described how it went from being asked, oh,

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Speaker 3: what did the Trump supporters think about this. That was

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Speaker 3: what she was being asked about to why do they

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00:20:48,240 --> 00:20:51,320
Speaker 3: believe that? Why would they believe these lies? And then,

434
00:20:51,440 --> 00:20:53,600
Speaker 3: as she said, I don't know, I'm a reporter. After

435
00:20:53,640 --> 00:20:56,479
Speaker 3: a couple of those within months in twenty seventeen, she

436
00:20:56,520 --> 00:20:59,520
Speaker 3: was off the air completely, just sidelined the entire duration

437
00:20:59,600 --> 00:21:03,800
Speaker 3: of her because that initial burst of introspection immediately went away,

438
00:21:03,840 --> 00:21:07,200
Speaker 3: and instead of just being against Trump, the media turned

439
00:21:07,200 --> 00:21:09,320
Speaker 3: against his supporters and the people that put him there

440
00:21:09,320 --> 00:21:10,000
Speaker 3: in the first place.

441
00:21:10,440 --> 00:21:13,520
Speaker 1: I mean, there's no question about that, right, And this

442
00:21:13,720 --> 00:21:16,160
Speaker 1: is this is why the whole concept of fake news

443
00:21:16,200 --> 00:21:19,000
Speaker 1: caught on with damn near fifty percent of the country

444
00:21:19,359 --> 00:21:23,399
Speaker 1: because they felt that in this sort of parlays into it,

445
00:21:23,560 --> 00:21:25,640
Speaker 1: like just connects perfectly to what I wanted to talk

446
00:21:25,680 --> 00:21:28,280
Speaker 1: to you next about, is the whole idea of coziness

447
00:21:28,280 --> 00:21:32,400
Speaker 1: with power, right. And I just found this so compelling,

448
00:21:32,680 --> 00:21:36,359
Speaker 1: right because the media, in many ways, and why do

449
00:21:36,440 --> 00:21:40,080
Speaker 1: they believe that they almost believe, well not almost, I

450
00:21:40,119 --> 00:21:41,959
Speaker 1: think in many ways they do believe that they are

451
00:21:42,040 --> 00:21:45,600
Speaker 1: part of the elite in this country. They're powerful themselves,

452
00:21:45,600 --> 00:21:47,879
Speaker 1: which of course they are. They're on TV, they have

453
00:21:48,000 --> 00:21:50,800
Speaker 1: massive Twitter followings, they're talking to millions of people every night,

454
00:21:51,280 --> 00:21:54,760
Speaker 1: and they're rubin elbows with US senators and presidents and

455
00:21:54,880 --> 00:21:57,040
Speaker 1: members of Congress. So like, of course they have an

456
00:21:57,119 --> 00:22:01,200
Speaker 1: unbelievable amount of power and how much of that And obviously,

457
00:22:01,720 --> 00:22:03,600
Speaker 1: like Donald Trump was one of those people, they were

458
00:22:03,840 --> 00:22:06,639
Speaker 1: half of these people were at his wedding. And the

459
00:22:06,680 --> 00:22:10,000
Speaker 1: idea that like, when how do you speak truth the

460
00:22:10,119 --> 00:22:13,800
Speaker 1: power when you were in that same group and many

461
00:22:13,840 --> 00:22:15,800
Speaker 1: of the people that you'd be speaking truth to you're

462
00:22:15,800 --> 00:22:21,520
Speaker 1: friends with. You know, Yeah, it's just it's unbelievably concerning

463
00:22:21,560 --> 00:22:21,800
Speaker 1: to me.

464
00:22:22,320 --> 00:22:25,920
Speaker 3: I know, I know, and it's not purely about Trump.

465
00:22:25,960 --> 00:22:27,639
Speaker 3: I'll give you just two examples that I give in

466
00:22:27,680 --> 00:22:29,760
Speaker 3: the book when it comes to coziness with power. First

467
00:22:29,760 --> 00:22:33,120
Speaker 3: of all, let's think about twenty twenty and Bernie Sanders. Okay,

468
00:22:33,160 --> 00:22:35,240
Speaker 3: let's go to the other side of the aisle and

469
00:22:35,320 --> 00:22:37,719
Speaker 3: the way that Bernie Sanders. We know, thanks to what

470
00:22:37,760 --> 00:22:40,720
Speaker 3: we learned in the emails, the DNC essentially worked with

471
00:22:40,800 --> 00:22:44,240
Speaker 3: the Hillary Clinton campaign to undermine Bernie Sanders in twenty sixteen.

472
00:22:44,280 --> 00:22:44,800
Speaker 3: We know that.

473
00:22:44,960 --> 00:22:47,639
Speaker 1: I mean, of course, they basically rigged the process for Hillary.

474
00:22:47,760 --> 00:22:50,080
Speaker 1: I mean absolutely, I hate the word rig but it's

475
00:22:50,080 --> 00:22:51,000
Speaker 1: definitely what they did.

476
00:22:51,359 --> 00:22:53,800
Speaker 3: They did it, they worked it away. That was not

477
00:22:54,160 --> 00:22:57,080
Speaker 3: what the DNC was supposed to do to undermine Hillary

478
00:22:57,119 --> 00:22:57,800
Speaker 3: Clinton's top.

479
00:22:57,640 --> 00:22:58,840
Speaker 2: Competitor, no doubt about it.

480
00:22:58,920 --> 00:23:02,640
Speaker 3: In twenty twenty, sure, there was definitely some political wrangling

481
00:23:02,680 --> 00:23:04,640
Speaker 3: that was happening against Bernie Sanders as well. I think

482
00:23:04,640 --> 00:23:08,040
Speaker 3: the Bloomberg candidacy was essentially this kamakazi to take him out.

483
00:23:08,400 --> 00:23:11,400
Speaker 3: And then eventually, as we learned before Super Tuesday, all

484
00:23:11,440 --> 00:23:14,680
Speaker 3: of the top competitors galvinized behind Biden to stop Bernie Sanders.

485
00:23:14,680 --> 00:23:17,200
Speaker 3: So the klobashar and they just dropped out and then

486
00:23:17,280 --> 00:23:20,199
Speaker 3: just right so there was still that happening, But it

487
00:23:20,240 --> 00:23:23,040
Speaker 3: was also the media, you know MSNBC, people like Joy

488
00:23:23,119 --> 00:23:26,840
Speaker 3: Reid and Chris Matthews also and others who it gets

489
00:23:26,880 --> 00:23:29,280
Speaker 3: lost a lot of time. They attacked Bernie Sanders and

490
00:23:29,320 --> 00:23:32,760
Speaker 3: his supporters in a shocking way for a network that

491
00:23:32,880 --> 00:23:34,920
Speaker 3: was just really what you would think is supporting whatever

492
00:23:34,920 --> 00:23:37,199
Speaker 3: the lefty candidate of the time is. Because in a

493
00:23:37,240 --> 00:23:39,479
Speaker 3: moment there he won Nevada and it looked like he

494
00:23:39,520 --> 00:23:41,919
Speaker 3: was cruising to become the nominee, and they could not

495
00:23:42,040 --> 00:23:43,960
Speaker 3: have that. They had to stop that. Also, he was

496
00:23:44,000 --> 00:23:47,280
Speaker 3: this disruption to the establishment in the way Trump was also,

497
00:23:47,359 --> 00:23:50,040
Speaker 3: and so that it's not just about Trump. Also, it's

498
00:23:50,040 --> 00:23:52,840
Speaker 3: at any disruption to the power, to the coziness that

499
00:23:52,840 --> 00:23:54,800
Speaker 3: we see there. So that's the first thing, and then

500
00:23:54,880 --> 00:23:57,320
Speaker 3: out of politics completely. I spent a lot of time

501
00:23:57,359 --> 00:24:00,600
Speaker 3: talking about Jeffrey Epstein in the book because talk about it.

502
00:24:00,600 --> 00:24:02,840
Speaker 2: Was fascinating, by the way, it's fascinating stuff.

503
00:24:03,200 --> 00:24:06,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean you talk about Trump's wedding and the

504
00:24:06,080 --> 00:24:09,560
Speaker 3: guest list there. Well, George Stephanopolis and Katie Kirk and

505
00:24:10,280 --> 00:24:13,760
Speaker 3: a lot of other people have met with Jeffrey Epstein

506
00:24:13,880 --> 00:24:17,320
Speaker 3: at a dinner party at his house, not just before

507
00:24:17,359 --> 00:24:20,040
Speaker 3: we knew anything about Jeffrey Epstein, but after he had

508
00:24:20,040 --> 00:24:24,440
Speaker 3: gotten out of jail for pleading guilty to underage prostitution

509
00:24:24,880 --> 00:24:27,040
Speaker 3: and serving time. I mean, it was sort of in jail.

510
00:24:27,080 --> 00:24:29,359
Speaker 3: He was kind of like an house arrest. But that

511
00:24:29,480 --> 00:24:31,320
Speaker 3: was in Florida, and then he moved to New York.

512
00:24:31,600 --> 00:24:33,399
Speaker 3: And then he has a dinner party where all these

513
00:24:33,440 --> 00:24:37,320
Speaker 3: people go, Chelsea Handler, Katie Kirk, George Stephanopolis and they

514
00:24:37,359 --> 00:24:38,760
Speaker 3: all say it was the one time we met him.

515
00:24:38,760 --> 00:24:41,960
Speaker 3: We didn't know anything about him. Okay, sure, sure, fine,

516
00:24:42,119 --> 00:24:45,240
Speaker 3: but you're in the news business. Kerry Kirk was at

517
00:24:45,240 --> 00:24:47,600
Speaker 3: CBS or Stephanopolis was at ABC. You might be a

518
00:24:47,600 --> 00:24:50,199
Speaker 3: little bit interested in this person that you just had

519
00:24:50,200 --> 00:24:52,640
Speaker 3: dinner with, who has a giant picture of Bill Clinton

520
00:24:52,680 --> 00:24:55,040
Speaker 3: in a blue dress on his wall that you just

521
00:24:55,119 --> 00:24:57,439
Speaker 3: had the dinner party at. Maybe you might pursue that

522
00:24:57,560 --> 00:25:00,679
Speaker 3: as a journalistic endeavor instead of sitting on this story

523
00:25:00,760 --> 00:25:03,960
Speaker 3: for years and years while these continued to happen and

524
00:25:04,119 --> 00:25:07,960
Speaker 3: still I mean, you know, Jeffrey Epstein then killed himself

525
00:25:08,040 --> 00:25:10,240
Speaker 3: in theory in his jail cell, and then the story

526
00:25:10,320 --> 00:25:12,880
Speaker 3: was gone completely. We don't even know the half of it.

527
00:25:13,000 --> 00:25:16,600
Speaker 3: And there's no curiosity among the corporate press. Why because

528
00:25:17,160 --> 00:25:20,120
Speaker 3: if we start to uncover stuff, how implicated are they

529
00:25:20,160 --> 00:25:21,240
Speaker 3: in that story as well?

530
00:25:21,680 --> 00:25:23,560
Speaker 1: I mean it's so true and not just not just

531
00:25:23,640 --> 00:25:26,719
Speaker 1: Jeffrey Epstein. I mean you talk about Harvey Weinstein, right,

532
00:25:26,720 --> 00:25:29,760
Speaker 1: and how a reporter I can't remember her name, but

533
00:25:29,960 --> 00:25:32,439
Speaker 1: had the story about Harvey Harvey Weinstein for what did

534
00:25:32,520 --> 00:25:34,040
Speaker 1: you say three years prior.

535
00:25:33,840 --> 00:25:37,960
Speaker 3: To Sharon, Yeah, Sharon Blaxmouth the New York Times talks

536
00:25:37,960 --> 00:25:40,080
Speaker 3: about how the story got killed. Rich McHugh, who I

537
00:25:40,080 --> 00:25:42,000
Speaker 3: speak to was at NBC at the time, working with

538
00:25:42,080 --> 00:25:44,879
Speaker 3: Ronan Farrow, describes in great detail how that story was

539
00:25:45,000 --> 00:25:47,679
Speaker 3: killed by his bosses and how it completely changed the

540
00:25:47,680 --> 00:25:50,080
Speaker 3: way he thinks about the media. Uh, yeah, no, they

541
00:25:50,119 --> 00:25:51,080
Speaker 3: covered for him then.

542
00:25:51,800 --> 00:25:54,240
Speaker 1: I mean so And and by the way you lead

543
00:25:54,359 --> 00:25:57,000
Speaker 1: in with the book about the Hunter Biden laptop and

544
00:25:57,040 --> 00:25:58,520
Speaker 1: how and again I don't want to put words in

545
00:25:58,520 --> 00:26:00,920
Speaker 1: your mouth about but how you see it as almost,

546
00:26:01,680 --> 00:26:05,280
Speaker 1: I mean an egregious example of censorship bias, call it

547
00:26:05,320 --> 00:26:07,359
Speaker 1: whatever you want, but almost an inflection point for you.

548
00:26:07,400 --> 00:26:09,360
Speaker 2: And you start your book that with that story.

549
00:26:10,040 --> 00:26:13,640
Speaker 1: And I mean as I read that, actually, as as

550
00:26:13,640 --> 00:26:16,840
Speaker 1: I finished your book, I thought about that Hunter Biden's

551
00:26:16,880 --> 00:26:19,399
Speaker 1: laptop and wondered how much of that was you know,

552
00:26:20,280 --> 00:26:23,280
Speaker 1: media wanting to be cozy with power, like hey, thinking

553
00:26:23,320 --> 00:26:25,439
Speaker 1: that maybe Joe Biden would win. And hey, if I

554
00:26:25,640 --> 00:26:30,239
Speaker 1: write about his son in Hunter Biden's Laptop and some

555
00:26:30,280 --> 00:26:33,600
Speaker 1: of the horrific things that he did, you know, are

556
00:26:33,640 --> 00:26:35,240
Speaker 1: they right there on that laptop. And by the way,

557
00:26:35,280 --> 00:26:36,840
Speaker 1: you look at some of that stuff on that laptop,

558
00:26:36,840 --> 00:26:39,080
Speaker 1: if you have any common sets or half a brain whatsoever,

559
00:26:39,119 --> 00:26:42,680
Speaker 1: you know that it's real, you know, right, But how

560
00:26:42,720 --> 00:26:46,280
Speaker 1: many people like didn't report on that laptop because they thought,

561
00:26:46,320 --> 00:26:48,760
Speaker 1: like maybe Joe Biden wouldn't allow them into the White

562
00:26:48,760 --> 00:26:50,920
Speaker 1: House press room or allow them to ask a question,

563
00:26:51,040 --> 00:26:53,760
Speaker 1: or wouldn't be invited to that swanky dinner or fundraiser

564
00:26:53,880 --> 00:26:58,119
Speaker 1: or whatever. And ultimately, I mean, if you look at

565
00:26:58,240 --> 00:27:00,320
Speaker 1: I mean there are some polls out there, Steve that

566
00:27:00,320 --> 00:27:02,359
Speaker 1: that said if the Hunter Biden laptop story had been

567
00:27:02,400 --> 00:27:06,040
Speaker 1: complete reported on like, it might have swayed the election

568
00:27:06,200 --> 00:27:08,000
Speaker 1: by upwards of five percentage points.

569
00:27:08,320 --> 00:27:09,800
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, and it didn't even need that much, right,

570
00:27:09,800 --> 00:27:11,720
Speaker 3: I mean, it was really a couple hundred thousand votes

571
00:27:11,760 --> 00:27:14,000
Speaker 3: in a few states and Trump woult have n so,

572
00:27:14,000 --> 00:27:17,199
Speaker 3: So yeah, I think it's it's it is there was.

573
00:27:17,359 --> 00:27:19,200
Speaker 3: We could spend hours talking just about the Hunter Biden

574
00:27:19,280 --> 00:27:21,520
Speaker 3: laptop story. I do think that it was one of

575
00:27:21,520 --> 00:27:26,000
Speaker 3: the most important instances of understanding where how how far

576
00:27:26,080 --> 00:27:27,760
Speaker 3: our media has fallen by the way that that that

577
00:27:27,800 --> 00:27:31,800
Speaker 3: story was handled Jumbout verifying that laptop. Tucker Carlson tells

578
00:27:31,840 --> 00:27:33,120
Speaker 3: me in the book that he knew it was real

579
00:27:33,200 --> 00:27:36,239
Speaker 3: instantly because he was sent an email between himself and

580
00:27:36,320 --> 00:27:39,200
Speaker 3: Hunter Biden that he knows he wrote, and so he said, oh, okay,

581
00:27:39,240 --> 00:27:41,040
Speaker 3: I mean you don't have this email from me to

582
00:27:41,119 --> 00:27:43,600
Speaker 3: Hunter Biden, who he was friendly with at one point,

583
00:27:43,640 --> 00:27:45,800
Speaker 3: and describes how he was, you know, hit. The families

584
00:27:45,800 --> 00:27:48,480
Speaker 3: were close at one point before Hunter Biden kind of

585
00:27:48,480 --> 00:27:51,399
Speaker 3: went off the deep end. Uh that they proved it.

586
00:27:51,400 --> 00:27:53,880
Speaker 3: It was real from the moment essentially it came out,

587
00:27:54,240 --> 00:27:56,639
Speaker 3: but there was a real push. So what what what happened?

588
00:27:56,640 --> 00:27:58,359
Speaker 3: What was that push against it? And as I've read

589
00:27:58,400 --> 00:28:00,959
Speaker 3: about an uncovered, I think there were It really boils

590
00:28:01,000 --> 00:28:04,080
Speaker 3: down to guilt and fear. The guilt was the way

591
00:28:04,080 --> 00:28:07,920
Speaker 3: that they were attacked, and they felt personally responsible because

592
00:28:07,960 --> 00:28:10,880
Speaker 3: of how they handled Hillary's emails in twenty sixteen, and

593
00:28:11,240 --> 00:28:14,360
Speaker 3: they feel I think they're being too hard on themselves.

594
00:28:14,640 --> 00:28:16,760
Speaker 3: I don't think the media is handling of Hillary Clinton's

595
00:28:16,800 --> 00:28:19,879
Speaker 3: emails elected Donald Trump. I don't think they have that power.

596
00:28:19,920 --> 00:28:22,320
Speaker 3: But they really believe that they believed that they did

597
00:28:22,359 --> 00:28:24,280
Speaker 3: something that helped put him in office, so they were

598
00:28:24,280 --> 00:28:26,879
Speaker 3: not going to make that mistake again. And then also fear.

599
00:28:27,359 --> 00:28:30,480
Speaker 3: We saw journalists who like Maggie Haberman at the New

600
00:28:30,560 --> 00:28:32,640
Speaker 3: York Times tweeted a link to the New York Post

601
00:28:32,680 --> 00:28:35,040
Speaker 3: story as it came out, and just sort of questioned

602
00:28:35,040 --> 00:28:37,159
Speaker 3: the sourcing. Oh, this seems sort of sketchy, linked to

603
00:28:37,200 --> 00:28:39,920
Speaker 3: the New York Post, and she was attacked for daring

604
00:28:40,000 --> 00:28:42,600
Speaker 3: to just even link to it and question the sourcing.

605
00:28:42,640 --> 00:28:45,280
Speaker 3: She was called Maga Haberman. She was trending on Twitter.

606
00:28:46,200 --> 00:28:46,960
Speaker 2: I remember her.

607
00:28:47,000 --> 00:28:49,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, so when you have that, you know, you have

608
00:28:49,400 --> 00:28:53,280
Speaker 3: to have a level of balls to even go that

609
00:28:53,400 --> 00:28:55,760
Speaker 3: far of just tweeting a link to it. And then

610
00:28:55,920 --> 00:28:58,440
Speaker 3: what we saw was the suppression. Right the New York

611
00:28:58,440 --> 00:29:01,040
Speaker 3: Post was locked out of their Twitter account and then

612
00:29:01,120 --> 00:29:04,600
Speaker 3: in an unprecedented move, Twitter made it so that link

613
00:29:04,680 --> 00:29:08,480
Speaker 3: was not shaable through publicly or even privately, and there

614
00:29:08,520 --> 00:29:10,880
Speaker 3: was no outrage by the corporate press about that. Yes,

615
00:29:10,920 --> 00:29:13,440
Speaker 3: they eventually did reverse themselves a day or two later,

616
00:29:13,640 --> 00:29:15,760
Speaker 3: but then Your Post remained locked out of their account

617
00:29:15,800 --> 00:29:18,680
Speaker 3: for weeks to come, and there was no outrage by

618
00:29:18,680 --> 00:29:22,000
Speaker 3: the press over that total overreach when it comes to

619
00:29:22,040 --> 00:29:25,440
Speaker 3: suppression and censorship. And that's what started what was to come,

620
00:29:25,480 --> 00:29:28,160
Speaker 3: which is this rise of anti speech activism. We saw

621
00:29:28,200 --> 00:29:31,160
Speaker 3: it during COVID in so many instances, just this idea

622
00:29:31,240 --> 00:29:34,400
Speaker 3: of we can't trust the public with this information, so

623
00:29:34,440 --> 00:29:36,400
Speaker 3: we need to just make sure they have less information.

624
00:29:36,760 --> 00:29:38,560
Speaker 3: That is not an ideal of the press.

625
00:29:38,880 --> 00:29:40,640
Speaker 1: And you talk about this in your book what did

626
00:29:40,680 --> 00:29:46,840
Speaker 1: you call it information being an information maximalist versus information minimalist, right,

627
00:29:46,560 --> 00:29:49,440
Speaker 1: And I believe that you say you're an information maximalist

628
00:29:49,480 --> 00:29:52,720
Speaker 1: as Amy, and I because I mean, ultimately, I think

629
00:29:52,880 --> 00:29:55,520
Speaker 1: that the American people are smart enough to decipher for

630
00:29:56,120 --> 00:29:59,640
Speaker 1: themselves what to do with maybe certain health information, if

631
00:29:59,640 --> 00:30:02,720
Speaker 1: we're talking about COVID or trying to decipher whether or

632
00:30:02,720 --> 00:30:05,840
Speaker 1: not somebody's legitimately insane. I think the American people are

633
00:30:05,840 --> 00:30:08,480
Speaker 1: smart enough to figure that out for themselves. And in fact,

634
00:30:09,000 --> 00:30:12,080
Speaker 1: I think one can make the argument, Steve that by

635
00:30:12,160 --> 00:30:15,720
Speaker 1: censoring those people or labeling them disinformation, you actually help

636
00:30:15,760 --> 00:30:21,040
Speaker 1: their platform grow, you know, yes, and and so what

637
00:30:21,920 --> 00:30:24,720
Speaker 1: it's it's if you you talk about in your book,

638
00:30:24,960 --> 00:30:27,320
Speaker 1: like the thinking about how the censorship of the Hunter

639
00:30:27,360 --> 00:30:30,160
Speaker 1: Biden laptop story is such an egregious example that ultimately

640
00:30:30,200 --> 00:30:33,480
Speaker 1: swayed an election, and and and you also talk in

641
00:30:33,520 --> 00:30:37,600
Speaker 1: depth about COVID, which also exposed some glaring faults uh

642
00:30:37,880 --> 00:30:42,480
Speaker 1: within the media and the whole Cuomo and Quomo show, Yeah,

643
00:30:42,480 --> 00:30:45,000
Speaker 1: and them having an hour and primetime of you know,

644
00:30:45,080 --> 00:30:47,479
Speaker 1: Andrew Cuomo and Chris Cuomo on their same show with

645
00:30:47,520 --> 00:30:50,840
Speaker 1: the with the big like Q tip and talking about

646
00:30:50,960 --> 00:30:54,240
Speaker 1: testing and then where you had. CNN has like this

647
00:30:54,400 --> 00:30:58,000
Speaker 1: hundred page ethics handbook of like of how to conduct

648
00:30:58,040 --> 00:31:00,800
Speaker 1: yourself as an on air personality or or a journalist,

649
00:31:00,840 --> 00:31:04,400
Speaker 1: and Zucker himself waived a rule to allow the governor

650
00:31:04,440 --> 00:31:07,040
Speaker 1: of the then governor of New York on Chris Cuomo's show,

651
00:31:07,120 --> 00:31:10,360
Speaker 1: to basically goof around for an hour during primetime at

652
00:31:10,360 --> 00:31:12,240
Speaker 1: the height of COVID, which of course this was all

653
00:31:12,280 --> 00:31:14,880
Speaker 1: before like we learned that, you know, Andrew Cuoma was

654
00:31:14,920 --> 00:31:17,360
Speaker 1: shunting old folks into nursing homes and they were dying

655
00:31:18,080 --> 00:31:20,080
Speaker 1: to the tune of tens of thousands. I mean, it's

656
00:31:20,080 --> 00:31:22,160
Speaker 1: just a tidal wave of human suffering there. And then

657
00:31:22,320 --> 00:31:27,520
Speaker 1: was accused of sexual harassment ultimately resigned. But what's crazy

658
00:31:27,560 --> 00:31:28,960
Speaker 1: to me about that, and I kept thinking is that,

659
00:31:29,000 --> 00:31:33,880
Speaker 1: like CNN almost created this scenario to where they had.

660
00:31:34,040 --> 00:31:36,680
Speaker 1: Then after Andrew Cuomo had to resign, they had an

661
00:31:36,720 --> 00:31:39,320
Speaker 1: hour like at what's the seven o'clock time, so leading

662
00:31:39,360 --> 00:31:42,520
Speaker 1: into primetime where Chris Cuomo wasn't even allowed to talk

663
00:31:42,560 --> 00:31:44,240
Speaker 1: about what was one of the biggest stories in the

664
00:31:44,240 --> 00:31:46,560
Speaker 1: country at that time, and then hand off to Don

665
00:31:46,640 --> 00:31:49,400
Speaker 1: Lemon after the fact where he then batched his brother.

666
00:31:49,480 --> 00:31:52,360
Speaker 2: I'm like, this is just all so crazy to me.

667
00:31:52,560 --> 00:31:53,840
Speaker 2: I just it's just crazy.

668
00:31:54,440 --> 00:31:56,760
Speaker 3: It's a great example of the way just a little

669
00:31:56,800 --> 00:31:59,480
Speaker 3: bit of loosening up the standards can can be the

670
00:31:59,520 --> 00:32:02,200
Speaker 3: snowball effect. And I should also point out.

671
00:32:02,080 --> 00:32:04,080
Speaker 2: A great way to say it's interesting thing.

672
00:32:04,440 --> 00:32:06,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, because and I should also say, you know, this

673
00:32:06,680 --> 00:32:10,560
Speaker 3: section of Uncovered really highlights something that I It's complicated.

674
00:32:10,560 --> 00:32:13,640
Speaker 3: The whole issue of the media is complicated because, frankly,

675
00:32:13,640 --> 00:32:15,720
Speaker 3: some of the best voices I would say in that chapter,

676
00:32:15,760 --> 00:32:18,600
Speaker 3: people like David Fulkanflick of NPR, Eric Wemple of the

677
00:32:18,640 --> 00:32:21,600
Speaker 3: Washington Post who were able to call out this CNN

678
00:32:21,640 --> 00:32:24,120
Speaker 3: and what they did, are obviously part of the corporate

679
00:32:24,160 --> 00:32:26,400
Speaker 3: media themselves. So there are some people that I think

680
00:32:26,400 --> 00:32:28,400
Speaker 3: have some introspection about this, and I think it's not

681
00:32:28,640 --> 00:32:30,960
Speaker 3: campaign with a broad brush. There's good journalism being done

682
00:32:30,960 --> 00:32:33,640
Speaker 3: every day, and yet they're often undermined by their own colleagues.

683
00:32:33,880 --> 00:32:36,080
Speaker 3: So that's the first thing to say. But yeah, I

684
00:32:36,120 --> 00:32:40,760
Speaker 3: think that what the Cuomo story was one where it's

685
00:32:40,800 --> 00:32:43,760
Speaker 3: like in the height of COVID and in March April

686
00:32:43,800 --> 00:32:47,640
Speaker 3: May of twenty twenty, there's there were mistakes being made

687
00:32:47,680 --> 00:32:49,680
Speaker 3: when it comes to journalism and ethics. There were mistakes

688
00:32:49,680 --> 00:32:52,240
Speaker 3: being made when it comes to to what was true

689
00:32:52,240 --> 00:32:54,040
Speaker 3: about COVID, And I think all of that can be

690
00:32:54,160 --> 00:32:57,280
Speaker 3: on some level forgiven because it was this crazy time.

691
00:32:57,360 --> 00:33:01,960
Speaker 3: You know, it was this unprecedented a pandemic and no

692
00:33:02,000 --> 00:33:06,400
Speaker 3: one really knew what was going on. But two things happened. One,

693
00:33:06,960 --> 00:33:09,040
Speaker 3: when it comes to like the the ethics and standards

694
00:33:09,080 --> 00:33:11,600
Speaker 3: of the Cuomo Show is it went on forever and

695
00:33:11,720 --> 00:33:14,440
Speaker 3: long after even we learned about the nursing home story.

696
00:33:14,640 --> 00:33:16,640
Speaker 3: And then of course when they when they decide, oh,

697
00:33:16,720 --> 00:33:19,520
Speaker 3: let's put the with the standards back on. Now Chris

698
00:33:19,640 --> 00:33:22,200
Speaker 3: can't talk about his brother at all, certainly can't interview him.

699
00:33:23,000 --> 00:33:25,480
Speaker 3: It just makes it so glaring that there's still now

700
00:33:25,480 --> 00:33:27,520
Speaker 3: covering it on other parts of the network. And then

701
00:33:27,560 --> 00:33:29,840
Speaker 3: of course the Jeff Zucker gets wrapped up into it

702
00:33:29,880 --> 00:33:32,360
Speaker 3: and he gets pushed out. Also that lawsuit still ongoing,

703
00:33:32,400 --> 00:33:34,160
Speaker 3: by the way, and it just was kind of the

704
00:33:34,240 --> 00:33:37,840
Speaker 3: nail in the coffin to be honest on seeing incredibility issue, it.

705
00:33:37,760 --> 00:33:38,680
Speaker 2: Was crazy, Steve.

706
00:33:38,920 --> 00:33:40,560
Speaker 1: I was I was running. I think I was running

707
00:33:40,560 --> 00:33:44,000
Speaker 1: for Congress at that point. And just as a personal anecdote,

708
00:33:44,080 --> 00:33:47,160
Speaker 1: like I've always been a political outsider, been involved, you know,

709
00:33:47,400 --> 00:33:49,800
Speaker 1: but like it was busy doing my own thing. And

710
00:33:49,880 --> 00:33:52,120
Speaker 1: I always knew, like you as certain the book, the

711
00:33:52,160 --> 00:33:55,080
Speaker 1: media maybe always leaned left, and I was cognizant of that.

712
00:33:55,440 --> 00:33:57,960
Speaker 1: And you know, anytime I watched the news, I was

713
00:33:58,000 --> 00:34:00,680
Speaker 1: cognizant of it. But what I when I ran boy,

714
00:34:00,800 --> 00:34:03,800
Speaker 1: I realized, like, holy shit, there's a lot more to

715
00:34:03,840 --> 00:34:08,400
Speaker 1: this than meets the eye. And and what I'm thinking

716
00:34:08,440 --> 00:34:11,160
Speaker 1: of right now is Chris Cuomo on a show like

717
00:34:11,320 --> 00:34:14,040
Speaker 1: walking up from the steps out of Quarantine, and I'm

718
00:34:14,080 --> 00:34:17,279
Speaker 1: like that was completely made up, like like none of

719
00:34:17,320 --> 00:34:20,160
Speaker 1: that was real, Like it was complete bullshit. And I

720
00:34:20,160 --> 00:34:23,840
Speaker 1: started thinking to myself, Steve, like like, so I can't

721
00:34:23,840 --> 00:34:26,759
Speaker 1: be the only one feeling this, right, Like how much

722
00:34:26,840 --> 00:34:29,239
Speaker 1: of this stuff is just performative bullshit?

723
00:34:29,600 --> 00:34:29,799
Speaker 2: Right?

724
00:34:30,239 --> 00:34:32,880
Speaker 1: And and I know, by the way, this was happening

725
00:34:32,960 --> 00:34:36,360
Speaker 1: during a pandemic that was very real, in which thousands

726
00:34:36,360 --> 00:34:38,879
Speaker 1: and thousands of people were losing their life or getting sick,

727
00:34:39,239 --> 00:34:41,440
Speaker 1: or loved ones being forced to die alone. People were

728
00:34:41,440 --> 00:34:44,040
Speaker 1: trying to sift through what's true and what's not. And

729
00:34:44,080 --> 00:34:47,080
Speaker 1: you talk about a loosening of an ethical standard like

730
00:34:47,600 --> 00:34:52,520
Speaker 1: stuff like that didn't help. It hurt and real people's

731
00:34:52,560 --> 00:34:54,359
Speaker 1: lives were hurt because of it, you know, when you

732
00:34:54,400 --> 00:34:57,480
Speaker 1: talk about like one example I mentioned was loved ones

733
00:34:57,560 --> 00:34:59,640
Speaker 1: dying alone, but people lost their life savings.

734
00:34:59,640 --> 00:35:01,000
Speaker 2: Business we're closed.

735
00:35:01,040 --> 00:35:03,680
Speaker 1: And you have Chris Cuomo like from I don't even

736
00:35:03,760 --> 00:35:06,240
Speaker 1: know where Martha's vineyard, like coming up from the basement,

737
00:35:06,280 --> 00:35:09,280
Speaker 1: acting like he's like Lazarus rising from the dead or something,

738
00:35:09,560 --> 00:35:12,399
Speaker 1: and then nobody from CNN even says anything about it,

739
00:35:12,440 --> 00:35:14,960
Speaker 1: like like, I can't how does that, How does something

740
00:35:15,000 --> 00:35:15,680
Speaker 1: like that happen?

741
00:35:16,040 --> 00:35:17,680
Speaker 3: I know, I know, I think he was at his

742
00:35:17,880 --> 00:35:22,319
Speaker 3: one of his Hampton's houses over there. It's it's it's

743
00:35:22,360 --> 00:35:26,280
Speaker 3: just well, frankly, I think that whole thing and really

744
00:35:26,360 --> 00:35:30,240
Speaker 3: just the the arrogance, the smugness of the Chris Cuomo's

745
00:35:30,320 --> 00:35:32,440
Speaker 3: up the world comes a little bit also from social

746
00:35:32,480 --> 00:35:35,440
Speaker 3: media and buying your own hype. In so many of

747
00:35:35,440 --> 00:35:38,799
Speaker 3: these instances and the rise of these influencers that these

748
00:35:39,120 --> 00:35:42,439
Speaker 3: media members now think that they're stars in a way,

749
00:35:42,600 --> 00:35:44,879
Speaker 3: and and that you know, even people that are far

750
00:35:45,080 --> 00:35:47,440
Speaker 3: below the bottom of the rung but have twenty thousand

751
00:35:47,480 --> 00:35:49,560
Speaker 3: Twitter followers, you can feel like a lot. You feel

752
00:35:49,560 --> 00:35:51,799
Speaker 3: like you got this big platform. You know, true, you

753
00:35:51,840 --> 00:35:54,799
Speaker 3: know you maybe maybe don't in reality. But no, I

754
00:35:54,800 --> 00:35:58,239
Speaker 3: think COVID was was just so disastrous because some one

755
00:35:58,280 --> 00:36:00,759
Speaker 3: of these stories we talk about Chris Cooman coming out

756
00:36:00,760 --> 00:36:02,600
Speaker 3: of the basement is you know, a lighter example, and

757
00:36:02,640 --> 00:36:04,680
Speaker 3: there's other ones also that I give out in the book,

758
00:36:04,840 --> 00:36:06,920
Speaker 3: But COVID was serious. You know, this was something that

759
00:36:07,320 --> 00:36:10,120
Speaker 3: and it's not just about you know, the initial part

760
00:36:10,120 --> 00:36:12,480
Speaker 3: of it, but like lockdowns, the way lockdowns were covered,

761
00:36:12,520 --> 00:36:15,120
Speaker 3: you know, masks and vaccines, and we could go right

762
00:36:15,160 --> 00:36:19,040
Speaker 3: down the line. In every case, the media essentially chose

763
00:36:19,120 --> 00:36:23,600
Speaker 3: what was the one true scientific expert opinion, the consensus opinion,

764
00:36:24,200 --> 00:36:28,160
Speaker 3: and said anything that deviates from that is dangerous. And

765
00:36:28,200 --> 00:36:31,400
Speaker 3: that's not just wrong, I mean not just as actually

766
00:36:31,440 --> 00:36:34,400
Speaker 3: wrong that they got so much wrong, but it's dangerous

767
00:36:34,400 --> 00:36:36,440
Speaker 3: to even have that point of view, the idea that

768
00:36:36,480 --> 00:36:38,799
Speaker 3: you can't have a debate about something or a discussion

769
00:36:39,200 --> 00:36:42,000
Speaker 3: a nuanced conversation. These things weren't black and white. We

770
00:36:42,080 --> 00:36:43,799
Speaker 3: knew that at the time, and they knew that at

771
00:36:43,840 --> 00:36:45,719
Speaker 3: the time, but they went with this because they just

772
00:36:45,760 --> 00:36:48,560
Speaker 3: didn't feel that the public could deal with the nuance

773
00:36:48,600 --> 00:36:50,520
Speaker 3: of these issues. I think, I mean, in some ways

774
00:36:50,520 --> 00:36:52,480
Speaker 3: they were completely spun by the Fauccies of the world,

775
00:36:52,520 --> 00:36:56,200
Speaker 3: as we would find out, and allowing them to suppress

776
00:36:56,239 --> 00:36:56,760
Speaker 3: and censor.

777
00:36:57,120 --> 00:36:59,799
Speaker 1: So you, Steve, you wrote about this stuff in your book,

778
00:37:00,320 --> 00:37:04,080
Speaker 1: and it pissed me off so much because, first of all,

779
00:37:04,320 --> 00:37:08,480
Speaker 1: you talk about Fauci, right, and how COVID itself became

780
00:37:09,200 --> 00:37:13,319
Speaker 1: super politicized, and you know, Trump was a part of it,

781
00:37:13,480 --> 00:37:15,760
Speaker 1: you know, and you talk about in the book about

782
00:37:15,840 --> 00:37:20,280
Speaker 1: how if Trump supported something, the media is almost and

783
00:37:19,960 --> 00:37:22,799
Speaker 1: I'm painting with broad strokes here, and I agree with

784
00:37:22,840 --> 00:37:24,520
Speaker 1: you we shouldn't do that, but I say the media

785
00:37:24,600 --> 00:37:27,080
Speaker 1: is like many in the media just ran to oppose

786
00:37:27,160 --> 00:37:30,200
Speaker 1: whatever it is that he said. And you had Fauci,

787
00:37:30,239 --> 00:37:33,560
Speaker 1: who was not necessarily an expert on any of these topics,

788
00:37:33,600 --> 00:37:36,880
Speaker 1: but because of you know, the time that he spent

789
00:37:36,920 --> 00:37:39,799
Speaker 1: in Washington as part of these bureaucratic institutions, he makes

790
00:37:39,880 --> 00:37:42,280
Speaker 1: contact and he's cozy with all these people with power,

791
00:37:43,000 --> 00:37:45,440
Speaker 1: was able to I think one of the people that

792
00:37:45,440 --> 00:37:48,359
Speaker 1: he interviewed said that like more than almost anything else,

793
00:37:48,440 --> 00:37:50,960
Speaker 1: Like he was just a master at manipulating the media

794
00:37:51,000 --> 00:37:53,080
Speaker 1: and was able to smear so many of these other

795
00:37:53,200 --> 00:37:57,120
Speaker 1: doctors who had opposing positions. And what I kept thinking

796
00:37:57,120 --> 00:38:00,319
Speaker 1: about is I was reading it was like, what is.

797
00:38:00,280 --> 00:38:01,800
Speaker 2: In it for the media?

798
00:38:01,640 --> 00:38:01,839
Speaker 3: Yeah?

799
00:38:02,560 --> 00:38:04,880
Speaker 2: To do that? All it does is hurt their credibility.

800
00:38:04,920 --> 00:38:07,880
Speaker 1: And ultimately, what really pissed me off about it, Steve,

801
00:38:07,960 --> 00:38:10,560
Speaker 1: is it people's lives were destroyed because of it.

802
00:38:10,880 --> 00:38:12,840
Speaker 2: Yes, And there was no pressibility for any.

803
00:38:12,640 --> 00:38:16,000
Speaker 3: Of it, not not nearly enough and not nearly enough

804
00:38:16,000 --> 00:38:19,080
Speaker 3: self reflection from the media for what they did in

805
00:38:19,560 --> 00:38:20,080
Speaker 3: joining in that.

806
00:38:20,200 --> 00:38:20,239
Speaker 1: No.

807
00:38:20,480 --> 00:38:22,920
Speaker 3: Doctor j Bodataria is the person that I spoke to

808
00:38:22,960 --> 00:38:25,800
Speaker 3: who describes Fauci as a genius, you know, an evil

809
00:38:25,840 --> 00:38:29,840
Speaker 3: genius if you will. That's someone who understood the way. Yeah,

810
00:38:29,880 --> 00:38:32,480
Speaker 3: he was. He had built these relationships with the media,

811
00:38:32,800 --> 00:38:35,880
Speaker 3: with those in power in government and the media for

812
00:38:36,400 --> 00:38:38,560
Speaker 3: decades leading up to the pandemic, and so he was

813
00:38:38,600 --> 00:38:42,719
Speaker 3: well positioned to speak with this this great authority and

814
00:38:42,880 --> 00:38:46,160
Speaker 3: to not just say I'm the authority, which again probably wrong,

815
00:38:46,239 --> 00:38:48,319
Speaker 3: but at the very least you could say that. But

816
00:38:48,440 --> 00:38:50,680
Speaker 3: to say anyone else who deviates from what I say

817
00:38:50,760 --> 00:38:53,080
Speaker 3: is dangerous. And doctor J. Bodataria was one of the

818
00:38:53,120 --> 00:38:56,520
Speaker 3: three experts. This is a Stanford professor and a.

819
00:38:56,480 --> 00:38:58,800
Speaker 2: Doctor absolutely brilliant, yes.

820
00:38:58,760 --> 00:39:02,200
Speaker 3: Who put to the Great Barrington Declaration. And if anyone's

821
00:39:02,360 --> 00:39:05,200
Speaker 3: even remotely familiar with the Great Barrington Declaration, you may

822
00:39:05,360 --> 00:39:08,680
Speaker 3: think that it was this quack, you know, dangerous paper

823
00:39:08,680 --> 00:39:10,920
Speaker 3: that was put together in order to get people killed,

824
00:39:11,000 --> 00:39:12,839
Speaker 3: you know, let it rip. That was what people would

825
00:39:12,840 --> 00:39:15,600
Speaker 3: describe it as, let COVID just rip through society. That

826
00:39:15,680 --> 00:39:17,319
Speaker 3: was not it at all. It was an argument for

827
00:39:17,360 --> 00:39:20,920
Speaker 3: focused protection on the elderly, not to lock down everyone,

828
00:39:20,960 --> 00:39:22,719
Speaker 3: but to make sure the elderly had taken care of

829
00:39:23,000 --> 00:39:26,799
Speaker 3: and those who are immunecropromised. That literally the entire thing

830
00:39:26,840 --> 00:39:29,600
Speaker 3: they were. They didn't have to be proven right for

831
00:39:29,640 --> 00:39:31,799
Speaker 3: it to be ridiculous how they were treated. But they

832
00:39:31,800 --> 00:39:34,879
Speaker 3: were proven right, as we now know scientifically. And yet

833
00:39:34,960 --> 00:39:37,880
Speaker 3: they were attacked in the media. They were attacked, they

834
00:39:37,880 --> 00:39:42,600
Speaker 3: were censored and smeared as these spreading disinformation and dangers

835
00:39:42,840 --> 00:39:44,759
Speaker 3: from the faucties of the world. But also from the

836
00:39:44,760 --> 00:39:47,879
Speaker 3: corporate media themselves, from the New York Times, and that

837
00:39:48,120 --> 00:39:51,360
Speaker 3: is something that is it can't ever get fully corrected,

838
00:39:51,360 --> 00:39:53,520
Speaker 3: because once we've gone down this road, you know, we

839
00:39:53,760 --> 00:39:56,160
Speaker 3: can't go back. But at the very least you'd hope

840
00:39:56,160 --> 00:39:58,440
Speaker 3: for a little bit of introspection from the press for

841
00:39:58,560 --> 00:40:01,719
Speaker 3: how they handled COVID. They got it so wrong and

842
00:40:02,480 --> 00:40:05,960
Speaker 3: just spun just what would turned out to be completely untrue.

843
00:40:06,560 --> 00:40:08,080
Speaker 2: I mean, it's so true.

844
00:40:08,120 --> 00:40:10,480
Speaker 1: And you talk about the importance of humility in the book,

845
00:40:10,480 --> 00:40:13,560
Speaker 1: and that you know when when journalism, you know it's

846
00:40:14,080 --> 00:40:17,160
Speaker 1: journalists have a brand now and that brand is built

847
00:40:17,239 --> 00:40:21,279
Speaker 1: upon on social media, and like the lack of introspection,

848
00:40:21,520 --> 00:40:23,960
Speaker 1: which which comes part and parcel with that as a

849
00:40:24,080 --> 00:40:26,960
Speaker 1: lack of humility. And I think the American people are

850
00:40:27,080 --> 00:40:29,600
Speaker 1: understanding even though COVID was a really tough time for

851
00:40:29,640 --> 00:40:31,800
Speaker 1: a lot of people. I mean, you'd be hard pressed

852
00:40:31,800 --> 00:40:34,160
Speaker 1: to find a family in this country that that didn't

853
00:40:34,160 --> 00:40:37,560
Speaker 1: have somebody that was very very ill or maybe even

854
00:40:37,600 --> 00:40:40,759
Speaker 1: perhaps lost somebody. Yeah, so very serious time, but a

855
00:40:40,800 --> 00:40:43,239
Speaker 1: little goes a long way in terms of humility and

856
00:40:43,280 --> 00:40:46,160
Speaker 1: the media just saying like, hey, look, we're sorry, we

857
00:40:46,160 --> 00:40:48,280
Speaker 1: were trying to sift through this as best we could,

858
00:40:48,719 --> 00:40:52,200
Speaker 1: and mistakes were made along the way, but we will

859
00:40:52,200 --> 00:40:54,359
Speaker 1: be better and try to get better every day. Like

860
00:40:54,400 --> 00:40:57,040
Speaker 1: that didn't happen, and it should have happened, but it

861
00:40:57,040 --> 00:40:59,160
Speaker 1: would have gone a long way had some people just

862
00:40:59,200 --> 00:40:59,560
Speaker 1: done that.

863
00:40:59,600 --> 00:41:02,680
Speaker 3: I think, Yeah, I think it's still it's never too

864
00:41:02,760 --> 00:41:05,759
Speaker 3: late to admit that you were wrong. I think I

865
00:41:05,800 --> 00:41:07,160
Speaker 3: agree with you. I think it goes a long way.

866
00:41:07,200 --> 00:41:09,080
Speaker 3: I think there is so much sense in the corporate

867
00:41:09,120 --> 00:41:11,600
Speaker 3: media that they don't want to admit when they get

868
00:41:11,600 --> 00:41:14,120
Speaker 3: things wrong because they think that the audience that they

869
00:41:14,160 --> 00:41:16,000
Speaker 3: have might continue to turn against them. I think that's

870
00:41:16,000 --> 00:41:18,920
Speaker 3: completely wrong. I think that's the totally incorrect approach. They

871
00:41:18,960 --> 00:41:21,920
Speaker 3: would find out if they would actually go and be accountable,

872
00:41:22,160 --> 00:41:24,640
Speaker 3: that that would ingratiate them to the public, that they

873
00:41:24,640 --> 00:41:26,480
Speaker 3: would trust them more if they would say when they

874
00:41:26,480 --> 00:41:29,160
Speaker 3: get it wrong. So I agree with you, But I

875
00:41:29,160 --> 00:41:32,000
Speaker 3: also think what this is a symptom of, you think,

876
00:41:32,040 --> 00:41:35,799
Speaker 3: why did this happen? Is that there journalism is a

877
00:41:35,880 --> 00:41:38,799
Speaker 3: very weird occupation in the sense that it's not like

878
00:41:39,719 --> 00:41:43,640
Speaker 3: a meritocracy. Okay, you know, if you're talking about like plumbers,

879
00:41:44,760 --> 00:41:46,839
Speaker 3: you were there be Yelp reviews, and you would see

880
00:41:46,840 --> 00:41:48,799
Speaker 3: the ones that would do a great job would get

881
00:41:48,840 --> 00:41:51,200
Speaker 3: five stars, and the ones that are lazy or are

882
00:41:51,280 --> 00:41:54,120
Speaker 3: not so good would get you know, put down the line,

883
00:41:54,160 --> 00:41:56,600
Speaker 3: and the best one would get rise to the top

884
00:41:56,640 --> 00:41:58,919
Speaker 3: and the bad ones would get weeded out. Journalism doesn't

885
00:41:58,960 --> 00:42:00,480
Speaker 3: work like that at all, you know. In fact, it's

886
00:42:00,480 --> 00:42:03,160
Speaker 3: almost the opposite. A lot of times, the worst journalists

887
00:42:03,200 --> 00:42:06,359
Speaker 3: get rewarded in the biggest ways possible because they're good

888
00:42:06,360 --> 00:42:09,000
Speaker 3: at other aspects of things, whether it's through building brands

889
00:42:09,040 --> 00:42:12,000
Speaker 3: on social media or playing the game in the powerful

890
00:42:12,000 --> 00:42:17,200
Speaker 3: scent circles. So there is no mechanism to help bring

891
00:42:17,239 --> 00:42:20,239
Speaker 3: the best journalists to the top. And because of that,

892
00:42:20,400 --> 00:42:22,799
Speaker 3: you have a lot of lazy, incompetent people who make

893
00:42:22,880 --> 00:42:24,879
Speaker 3: up these newsrooms, not all of them, but a lot

894
00:42:24,880 --> 00:42:26,600
Speaker 3: of them. And these people are not going to get

895
00:42:26,600 --> 00:42:29,239
Speaker 3: better because they can't. They are incapable of getting better.

896
00:42:29,400 --> 00:42:33,160
Speaker 3: And until we actually have bosses who care about what

897
00:42:33,320 --> 00:42:36,920
Speaker 3: actually is journalism, actually is what you know, what should

898
00:42:36,920 --> 00:42:38,880
Speaker 3: it be to serve the public, we're not going to

899
00:42:38,880 --> 00:42:39,439
Speaker 3: get this better.

900
00:42:40,120 --> 00:42:43,200
Speaker 1: I mean, you talk about being lazy and incompetent, and

901
00:42:43,280 --> 00:42:46,120
Speaker 1: you also talk about Jesse Smolette and the hoax that

902
00:42:46,120 --> 00:42:51,440
Speaker 1: that was, and I mean like the Gorilla TV and

903
00:42:51,600 --> 00:42:53,799
Speaker 1: the idea that President Trump is sitting around in the

904
00:42:53,800 --> 00:42:56,960
Speaker 1: Oval office and watching Gorilla's fight on a network that

905
00:42:57,080 --> 00:43:01,160
Speaker 1: was just for him was more believable than the smoletoaks,

906
00:43:01,280 --> 00:43:03,840
Speaker 1: Like the idea that they heard of two Maga types

907
00:43:03,880 --> 00:43:06,320
Speaker 1: in Chicago in the middle of a polar vortex in

908
00:43:06,360 --> 00:43:08,000
Speaker 1: the middle of the night just so happened to be

909
00:43:08,040 --> 00:43:12,560
Speaker 1: carrying bleach and like conduct some horrific attack on Justy

910
00:43:12,600 --> 00:43:14,719
Speaker 1: Smolett and pour bleach on him and everything else and

911
00:43:14,760 --> 00:43:16,640
Speaker 1: say this is Maga country, even though it's probably like

912
00:43:16,640 --> 00:43:20,839
Speaker 1: a D plus one hundred, like any one could have known,

913
00:43:20,960 --> 00:43:23,920
Speaker 1: just like anybody that was like all of these people

914
00:43:24,000 --> 00:43:27,279
Speaker 1: exist in the media, from from producers to editors, and

915
00:43:28,200 --> 00:43:30,759
Speaker 1: no one thought for a second that like maybe this

916
00:43:30,840 --> 00:43:34,400
Speaker 1: isn't How does some I guess my question for you is, Steve,

917
00:43:34,480 --> 00:43:37,200
Speaker 1: is how the hell does something like that happen to?

918
00:43:37,200 --> 00:43:37,399
Speaker 2: Where?

919
00:43:37,520 --> 00:43:40,160
Speaker 1: Like what in twenty four hours he's got He's like

920
00:43:40,200 --> 00:43:44,319
Speaker 1: getting a primetime interview with what Robin Robin Roberts, Yah,

921
00:43:44,440 --> 00:43:47,040
Speaker 1: Robin Roberts, who is who is who I respect? And

922
00:43:47,200 --> 00:43:50,040
Speaker 1: and thinks she's great, by the way, but how does

923
00:43:50,080 --> 00:43:53,719
Speaker 1: that happen? And she got celebrities like be Strong Jesse,

924
00:43:53,960 --> 00:43:56,160
Speaker 1: like everybody in the country who seemed to galvanize, but

925
00:43:56,200 --> 00:43:59,080
Speaker 1: he what was a completely ridiculous fake story.

926
00:43:59,480 --> 00:44:02,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's I lay this out in the in the

927
00:44:02,640 --> 00:44:07,760
Speaker 3: chapter about incompetence and introspection or lage and laziness, because

928
00:44:07,800 --> 00:44:10,560
Speaker 3: I also think that there's another element to this, and

929
00:44:10,600 --> 00:44:14,239
Speaker 3: that is what happened in this instance. You know, we

930
00:44:14,400 --> 00:44:17,000
Speaker 3: it seems completely ridiculous, Like as you're laying out the

931
00:44:17,000 --> 00:44:19,239
Speaker 3: facts and people know, you know the Justice Smilette story

932
00:44:19,239 --> 00:44:21,400
Speaker 3: pretty well, but what you might not remember is like

933
00:44:21,440 --> 00:44:23,920
Speaker 3: there were outlets, let's just say, like Entertainment Tonight was

934
00:44:23,960 --> 00:44:25,439
Speaker 3: one of those that I lay out in the book,

935
00:44:25,680 --> 00:44:29,520
Speaker 3: which described it as an alleged homophobic and racist attack.

936
00:44:29,600 --> 00:44:33,040
Speaker 3: And he was allegedly attacked. And the way that they

937
00:44:33,080 --> 00:44:36,240
Speaker 3: couched that, which was the right thing to do journalistically,

938
00:44:36,920 --> 00:44:40,000
Speaker 3: was then attacked by people like AOC for how dare

939
00:44:40,040 --> 00:44:42,839
Speaker 3: you call what happened to him racist and homophobic? They

940
00:44:42,840 --> 00:44:45,680
Speaker 3: were then you know, got into the Twitter storm. They

941
00:44:45,680 --> 00:44:49,400
Speaker 3: were the bad account of the week, and and so

942
00:44:49,560 --> 00:44:51,920
Speaker 3: you start to lay out there's not the incentive structure

943
00:44:52,000 --> 00:44:54,279
Speaker 3: in the media now because of social media, because how

944
00:44:54,320 --> 00:44:57,040
Speaker 3: everything is public. It's not just about getting it right

945
00:44:57,120 --> 00:45:00,040
Speaker 3: or wrong, but it's also about what is acceptable and

946
00:45:00,080 --> 00:45:03,360
Speaker 3: what's unacceptable. And it's it's very sad, but in a

947
00:45:03,360 --> 00:45:05,640
Speaker 3: lot of these newsrooms, what if you cover something in

948
00:45:05,680 --> 00:45:08,279
Speaker 3: a way that is wrong, is incorrect, like so many

949
00:45:08,280 --> 00:45:12,200
Speaker 3: did with Jesse Smillette, but it's acceptable, then you're not

950
00:45:12,239 --> 00:45:14,040
Speaker 3: going to be hit as hard as if you covered

951
00:45:14,080 --> 00:45:16,600
Speaker 3: something in a correct way, but about in a way

952
00:45:16,640 --> 00:45:19,040
Speaker 3: that was unacceptable to the to the you know, the

953
00:45:19,080 --> 00:45:21,320
Speaker 3: twitter Ati, the people that are that are the loudest

954
00:45:21,400 --> 00:45:24,360
Speaker 3: voices on Twitter, and so that's completely messed up. And

955
00:45:24,360 --> 00:45:26,920
Speaker 3: that's a new phenomenon. That's not something that existed when

956
00:45:26,920 --> 00:45:29,480
Speaker 3: you when you didn't have social media and people yelling

957
00:45:29,480 --> 00:45:31,200
Speaker 3: at you. You only had people maybe calling into the

958
00:45:31,239 --> 00:45:34,719
Speaker 3: newsroom or sending a letter. It wasn't public, There wasn't

959
00:45:34,840 --> 00:45:37,000
Speaker 3: there weren't able to be these pressure campaigns that came

960
00:45:37,040 --> 00:45:39,160
Speaker 3: about it. And that's why I think we get we

961
00:45:39,200 --> 00:45:41,920
Speaker 3: see so much get you know, incorrectly covered like the

962
00:45:42,040 --> 00:45:45,040
Speaker 3: Justice Smilette story is, because why why cover it right?

963
00:45:45,280 --> 00:45:47,640
Speaker 3: Why try to get it right, because you're only gonna

964
00:45:47,640 --> 00:45:50,120
Speaker 3: get yelled at by people like aoc eh, we'll just

965
00:45:50,200 --> 00:45:51,239
Speaker 3: get it wrong and we'll move on.

966
00:45:53,200 --> 00:45:54,680
Speaker 2: Well, I mean, it's such a great point.

967
00:45:54,719 --> 00:45:56,759
Speaker 1: And I think you talk about in the book where

968
00:45:56,760 --> 00:46:00,640
Speaker 1: you're interviewing Jimmy Fallon and his producers and how I

969
00:46:00,640 --> 00:46:03,799
Speaker 1: guess how much of this is like self created by

970
00:46:04,640 --> 00:46:07,640
Speaker 1: media executives. And I found this fascinating. I actually highlighted

971
00:46:07,640 --> 00:46:10,680
Speaker 1: the quote where he said, we like to do things

972
00:46:10,719 --> 00:46:15,000
Speaker 1: that certain people love as opposed to something everybody likes.

973
00:46:15,400 --> 00:46:18,000
Speaker 1: So in other words, and this was sort of born

974
00:46:18,040 --> 00:46:21,480
Speaker 1: out of the idea that media companies are like Fox

975
00:46:21,520 --> 00:46:23,759
Speaker 1: News for example, or maybe even perhaps CNN, are owned

976
00:46:23,800 --> 00:46:26,440
Speaker 1: by bigger and bigger conglomerates. So you end up now

977
00:46:26,760 --> 00:46:28,200
Speaker 1: we're in an environment.

978
00:46:27,840 --> 00:46:32,040
Speaker 2: Where you have media like media networks.

979
00:46:31,640 --> 00:46:33,960
Speaker 1: Owned by massive, massive companies, and I think you refer

980
00:46:34,000 --> 00:46:36,080
Speaker 1: to them in the book as blobs, to where now

981
00:46:36,080 --> 00:46:39,440
Speaker 1: you have also journalists with small media companies doing podcasts

982
00:46:39,440 --> 00:46:42,560
Speaker 1: and substacks who have a really strong connection with their audience.

983
00:46:42,600 --> 00:46:46,360
Speaker 1: The smaller folks bigger media conglomerates perhaps don't have a

984
00:46:46,360 --> 00:46:48,400
Speaker 1: stronger connection with their audience. So in an attempt to

985
00:46:48,480 --> 00:46:52,000
Speaker 1: actually get a base. Shows like the like Jimmy Fallon

986
00:46:52,239 --> 00:46:53,960
Speaker 1: and The Tonight Show are going all in with a

987
00:46:54,000 --> 00:46:56,360
Speaker 1: certain demographic or a certain audience to make sure that

988
00:46:56,400 --> 00:46:57,000
Speaker 1: they have a base.

989
00:46:57,040 --> 00:46:58,000
Speaker 2: Do I have that right?

990
00:46:58,360 --> 00:47:01,080
Speaker 3: Yeah? I think that's absolutely right. The way that the

991
00:47:01,520 --> 00:47:06,279
Speaker 3: financial incentive structure has changed so dramatically, this relates to

992
00:47:06,560 --> 00:47:08,840
Speaker 3: people like Jimmy Fallon and entertainment shows. I talk a

993
00:47:08,840 --> 00:47:10,520
Speaker 3: lot about ESPN in the book and the way that

994
00:47:10,520 --> 00:47:13,920
Speaker 3: that's shifted the big media outlets like CNN and New

995
00:47:14,000 --> 00:47:16,319
Speaker 3: York Times. You know, there was once a time when

996
00:47:16,480 --> 00:47:18,719
Speaker 3: that business was just going to be printing money. You

997
00:47:18,760 --> 00:47:22,319
Speaker 3: could really go and build a giant audience and try

998
00:47:22,360 --> 00:47:24,120
Speaker 3: to attract as many people as you could, and you

999
00:47:24,120 --> 00:47:25,960
Speaker 3: try to maybe water down a little bit so that

1000
00:47:26,000 --> 00:47:28,719
Speaker 3: you can just get bring in everyone, not offend anyone.

1001
00:47:29,080 --> 00:47:31,759
Speaker 3: And that was the actual mentality. But you know, when

1002
00:47:31,760 --> 00:47:34,120
Speaker 3: I interview Jimmy Fallon about this and his producers, and

1003
00:47:34,239 --> 00:47:36,520
Speaker 3: this was like two thousand and nine, this was early on,

1004
00:47:36,640 --> 00:47:39,920
Speaker 3: but they saw that this was changing, that there was

1005
00:47:40,000 --> 00:47:42,040
Speaker 3: no longer going to be these five or six million

1006
00:47:42,040 --> 00:47:44,279
Speaker 3: people watching at night. No, you could win that time

1007
00:47:44,280 --> 00:47:46,560
Speaker 3: slot with two million or one and a half million,

1008
00:47:46,920 --> 00:47:50,520
Speaker 3: and so you need to appeal to smaller number of people,

1009
00:47:50,719 --> 00:47:53,000
Speaker 3: but people that love you, that people that will have

1010
00:47:53,040 --> 00:47:55,920
Speaker 3: a much greater affinity to you. And so yeah, I

1011
00:47:55,960 --> 00:47:59,120
Speaker 3: think we absolutely saw that with the espns of the world,

1012
00:47:59,280 --> 00:48:01,880
Speaker 3: with the CNN, the New York Times. Is they don't

1013
00:48:01,880 --> 00:48:04,719
Speaker 3: care about alienating people on the right in some capacity

1014
00:48:04,760 --> 00:48:08,600
Speaker 3: because the pool that they need to pull from is

1015
00:48:09,040 --> 00:48:12,319
Speaker 3: smaller and smaller. They're feeling the quicksand beneath their feet.

1016
00:48:12,320 --> 00:48:14,480
Speaker 3: They're just trying to gramb onto the lowest hanging fruit

1017
00:48:14,719 --> 00:48:16,719
Speaker 3: and hold on for dear life and get make the

1018
00:48:16,760 --> 00:48:19,239
Speaker 3: most out of their time before everyone just shifts to

1019
00:48:19,320 --> 00:48:22,000
Speaker 3: streaming or some other platforms. So yeah, I think that's

1020
00:48:22,000 --> 00:48:26,000
Speaker 3: a huge problem because in some ways institutional media is needed.

1021
00:48:26,000 --> 00:48:29,440
Speaker 3: We need media that has large resources and legal departments

1022
00:48:29,480 --> 00:48:31,520
Speaker 3: to fight the good fight, even if they have their

1023
00:48:31,840 --> 00:48:34,160
Speaker 3: hearts in the right place, which obviously they don't. But

1024
00:48:34,480 --> 00:48:37,640
Speaker 3: when you have this current structure, you're going to make

1025
00:48:37,680 --> 00:48:40,200
Speaker 3: these They're going to make these bad business decisions because

1026
00:48:40,200 --> 00:48:43,000
Speaker 3: they no longer have to appeal to the masses.

1027
00:48:43,080 --> 00:48:45,279
Speaker 1: Well, right, And so, like, what I was thinking about is, like,

1028
00:48:45,320 --> 00:48:47,320
Speaker 1: how much of this is self created. In other words,

1029
00:48:47,520 --> 00:48:50,440
Speaker 1: the media executives going all in with a certain audience,

1030
00:48:50,480 --> 00:48:53,200
Speaker 1: what they do is in effect create a self flicking

1031
00:48:53,200 --> 00:48:56,160
Speaker 1: ice cream cone, where yeah, they might have a really

1032
00:48:56,719 --> 00:48:59,160
Speaker 1: strong audience that they go all in on, but they

1033
00:48:59,200 --> 00:49:03,880
Speaker 1: all end up being like ideologically dogmatic and similar. And

1034
00:49:03,920 --> 00:49:05,840
Speaker 1: so what happens is when a situation like at the

1035
00:49:05,880 --> 00:49:08,440
Speaker 1: New York Times where they run a Tom Cotton opbed

1036
00:49:08,480 --> 00:49:10,640
Speaker 1: at the height of the Summer of Love, where Tom

1037
00:49:10,680 --> 00:49:13,400
Speaker 1: Cotton is advocating sending troops into cities to quell some

1038
00:49:13,440 --> 00:49:16,440
Speaker 1: of these violent riots. You have people in the New

1039
00:49:16,520 --> 00:49:21,240
Speaker 1: York Times like newsrooms who are crying and freaking out

1040
00:49:21,719 --> 00:49:25,320
Speaker 1: and organizing in a way to whereby their firing editors

1041
00:49:25,400 --> 00:49:28,480
Speaker 1: and pulling the op eds and apologizing to the public.

1042
00:49:28,480 --> 00:49:30,880
Speaker 1: Whereas if they just like did, like maybe had a

1043
00:49:30,880 --> 00:49:34,800
Speaker 1: broader audience, it was more intellectually diverse, maybe they wouldn't

1044
00:49:34,800 --> 00:49:37,200
Speaker 1: have had a problem with maybe losing their audience that

1045
00:49:37,200 --> 00:49:38,560
Speaker 1: they went all in on in the first place.

1046
00:49:38,600 --> 00:49:40,480
Speaker 2: Does that make sense, That's exactly right.

1047
00:49:40,560 --> 00:49:44,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, Intellectual diversity is what's really missing in a lot

1048
00:49:44,080 --> 00:49:46,759
Speaker 3: of these newsrooms. And I think that that's it takes

1049
00:49:46,800 --> 00:49:50,120
Speaker 3: from pulling from different experiences people that I don't even

1050
00:49:50,160 --> 00:49:52,360
Speaker 3: need to necessarily fill it with a bunch of maga people.

1051
00:49:52,440 --> 00:49:54,440
Speaker 3: You just have people that are open minded and that

1052
00:49:54,560 --> 00:49:57,400
Speaker 3: right a long way. So yeah, I completely agree with you.

1053
00:49:58,160 --> 00:50:00,840
Speaker 3: I think that the Tom cotton Ed story, which I

1054
00:50:00,880 --> 00:50:03,879
Speaker 3: write about in Uncovered in chapter ten, is another one

1055
00:50:03,920 --> 00:50:06,360
Speaker 3: that's really emblematic of the problems with the press. And

1056
00:50:06,360 --> 00:50:09,280
Speaker 3: I talked to Sean mccreich, who was in the newsroom

1057
00:50:09,320 --> 00:50:10,880
Speaker 3: at the time. This is now he's out in New

1058
00:50:10,960 --> 00:50:14,520
Speaker 3: York magazine, and he was laying out that people were so,

1059
00:50:16,080 --> 00:50:20,520
Speaker 3: you know, just emotional about the publication of this, said.

1060
00:50:20,360 --> 00:50:22,680
Speaker 1: One dude like logged onto like one of the chats

1061
00:50:22,680 --> 00:50:24,160
Speaker 1: and was crying or something about it.

1062
00:50:25,880 --> 00:50:26,160
Speaker 2: Together.

1063
00:50:26,760 --> 00:50:29,160
Speaker 3: And why was he crying Not because it was published,

1064
00:50:29,280 --> 00:50:31,719
Speaker 3: but because his friends wouldn't talk to him because he

1065
00:50:31,800 --> 00:50:33,920
Speaker 3: worked for the New York Times and that that dared

1066
00:50:33,920 --> 00:50:35,360
Speaker 3: to publish this horrible op ed.

1067
00:50:36,040 --> 00:50:38,840
Speaker 2: I'm sorry, it's like absolutely ridiculous.

1068
00:50:38,920 --> 00:50:44,120
Speaker 4: Yes, say so, yes, it's insane that then what was

1069
00:50:44,200 --> 00:50:47,480
Speaker 4: what was done was publicly there was this pressure campaign

1070
00:50:47,520 --> 00:50:49,319
Speaker 4: being done by the staffers of the New York Times

1071
00:50:49,400 --> 00:50:51,920
Speaker 4: to say publishing this op ed puts the lives of

1072
00:50:52,000 --> 00:50:54,919
Speaker 4: black New York Times staffers in danger, as if they.

1073
00:50:54,880 --> 00:50:57,560
Speaker 3: Actually believe publishing an op ed by a senator puts

1074
00:50:57,719 --> 00:51:00,480
Speaker 3: lives in danger. That's completely ridiculous. That's the shows how

1075
00:51:00,480 --> 00:51:03,719
Speaker 3: they don't even understand journalism. But you were able to

1076
00:51:03,760 --> 00:51:07,719
Speaker 3: see that this worked. They got the people fired, they

1077
00:51:07,800 --> 00:51:10,759
Speaker 3: got less voices like Tom Cotton to be published in

1078
00:51:10,760 --> 00:51:13,719
Speaker 3: the New York Times or you know, go even beyond that,

1079
00:51:13,760 --> 00:51:15,759
Speaker 3: Tom Cotton is the United States Center, how about just

1080
00:51:16,160 --> 00:51:19,359
Speaker 3: anyone else. So they were able to really make this

1081
00:51:19,360 --> 00:51:22,640
Speaker 3: pressure campaign work. And that is that's a scary moment

1082
00:51:22,719 --> 00:51:25,279
Speaker 3: because the bosses were not able to stand firm in

1083
00:51:25,320 --> 00:51:26,040
Speaker 3: their principles.

1084
00:51:26,080 --> 00:51:28,040
Speaker 1: Well yeah, and they end up getting rid of the

1085
00:51:28,040 --> 00:51:30,799
Speaker 1: New York Times Opinion editorials page and they just go

1086
00:51:30,880 --> 00:51:33,799
Speaker 1: with guest essays to give them a level of diffusion. Hey,

1087
00:51:33,800 --> 00:51:36,200
Speaker 1: this is just a guess like we don't actually believe

1088
00:51:36,239 --> 00:51:37,960
Speaker 1: in any of this stuff, Like what the hell is

1089
00:51:38,000 --> 00:51:38,480
Speaker 1: that about?

1090
00:51:38,520 --> 00:51:41,200
Speaker 2: Like how that was one of the most cowardly things

1091
00:51:41,200 --> 00:51:41,920
Speaker 2: I've ever heard.

1092
00:51:42,600 --> 00:51:45,120
Speaker 1: And I mean, this is why this book is fascinating.

1093
00:51:45,160 --> 00:51:48,240
Speaker 1: It's uncovered. You've got to get it if you're interested

1094
00:51:48,239 --> 00:51:51,239
Speaker 1: in politics, whether you're a Democrat or Republican, it doesn't matter.

1095
00:51:51,280 --> 00:51:52,200
Speaker 2: You're interested in.

1096
00:51:52,200 --> 00:51:55,400
Speaker 1: Why we are where we are right now as a

1097
00:51:55,440 --> 00:51:57,520
Speaker 1: country with regards to a lack of trust in the media.

1098
00:51:57,560 --> 00:51:59,279
Speaker 1: You got to read this book. Steve's been in the

1099
00:51:59,280 --> 00:52:02,960
Speaker 1: game for really long time. Okay, well, and the interview

1100
00:52:03,040 --> 00:52:05,920
Speaker 1: with like what do we do to get the hell

1101
00:52:05,920 --> 00:52:07,640
Speaker 1: out of here? And I'll tell you, like, I really

1102
00:52:07,719 --> 00:52:09,879
Speaker 1: like some of your recommendations. And one of the things

1103
00:52:09,920 --> 00:52:11,880
Speaker 1: that Rick Garnello's used to talk about as part of

1104
00:52:11,880 --> 00:52:16,720
Speaker 1: the Trump administration is breaking up, you know, concentrated power

1105
00:52:16,880 --> 00:52:18,840
Speaker 1: in Washington. In other words, like let's get rid of

1106
00:52:18,880 --> 00:52:21,400
Speaker 1: something like take some of these cabinet level departments, like

1107
00:52:21,440 --> 00:52:24,359
Speaker 1: the Department of Education and put it in Idaho. Let's

1108
00:52:24,400 --> 00:52:26,839
Speaker 1: take the irs out of Washington, D C. And put

1109
00:52:26,840 --> 00:52:29,040
Speaker 1: it in Dallas, Texas. Spread it out so that they're

1110
00:52:29,080 --> 00:52:32,960
Speaker 1: more emblematic of the actual country that they serve. You

1111
00:52:33,080 --> 00:52:36,680
Speaker 1: kind of recommend that with the ACELA media in New

1112
00:52:36,760 --> 00:52:38,400
Speaker 1: York City and in Washington, D C.

1113
00:52:38,600 --> 00:52:39,799
Speaker 2: And not just like maybe.

1114
00:52:39,600 --> 00:52:43,040
Speaker 1: Hiring journalists that live in communities or if they're not

1115
00:52:43,080 --> 00:52:46,640
Speaker 1: already from there, sending people to actually embed with those communities.

1116
00:52:46,880 --> 00:52:49,320
Speaker 1: And one of the best things I loved about it

1117
00:52:49,440 --> 00:52:52,279
Speaker 1: was that finding journalists that might not have the right Hey, look,

1118
00:52:52,400 --> 00:52:54,719
Speaker 1: maybe they don't have the right educational pedigree. They don't

1119
00:52:54,840 --> 00:52:57,400
Speaker 1: maybe they didn't go to Harvard School of Journalism or

1120
00:52:57,440 --> 00:53:00,200
Speaker 1: in your case, Syracuse, that they have an attitude like

1121
00:53:00,239 --> 00:53:02,880
Speaker 1: I don't give a fuck, Like I'm covering the truth

1122
00:53:02,960 --> 00:53:06,320
Speaker 1: and I don't care what it costs me. I'm speaking

1123
00:53:06,320 --> 00:53:08,600
Speaker 1: truth the power and look, I don't care if that

1124
00:53:08,640 --> 00:53:12,440
Speaker 1: person doesn't like me. But the American people can come

1125
00:53:12,520 --> 00:53:14,239
Speaker 1: hell or high water, can believe.

1126
00:53:13,960 --> 00:53:17,480
Speaker 2: That this is the actual truth. Yeah, well, I think

1127
00:53:17,520 --> 00:53:18,840
Speaker 2: it's great. I love the idea.

1128
00:53:19,600 --> 00:53:21,880
Speaker 3: Sel I mean, not giving a fuck is like, really

1129
00:53:21,880 --> 00:53:24,640
Speaker 3: what should be at the top of every journalist and

1130
00:53:24,680 --> 00:53:26,320
Speaker 3: this is what you need to do as a journalist.

1131
00:53:27,000 --> 00:53:29,719
Speaker 3: People ask me, well, what's the skill set? I say,

1132
00:53:29,760 --> 00:53:31,680
Speaker 3: you know, not just about being curious. You need to

1133
00:53:31,680 --> 00:53:34,399
Speaker 3: be nosy. You know. Nosy is a negative term.

1134
00:53:34,520 --> 00:53:37,239
Speaker 1: Like Nancy from Stranger Things you ever see Stranger thinks

1135
00:53:37,280 --> 00:53:40,239
Speaker 1: she's like the young reports. She's like you, you're like

1136
00:53:40,480 --> 00:53:43,040
Speaker 1: the male version of Nancy. Like Nancy's like in a

1137
00:53:43,120 --> 00:53:45,560
Speaker 1: newsroom with a bunch of men. They were like laughing

1138
00:53:45,600 --> 00:53:47,319
Speaker 1: her off and she's like, I'm not gonna let those

1139
00:53:47,400 --> 00:53:49,279
Speaker 1: men tell me what to do. And she's a hard

1140
00:53:49,320 --> 00:53:53,640
Speaker 1: news journalist, like she's out there getting the stories. Just yes, sorry,

1141
00:53:53,800 --> 00:53:55,480
Speaker 1: I mean, just co op what you were saying.

1142
00:53:55,480 --> 00:53:57,399
Speaker 3: But it's it's got to check things.

1143
00:53:57,480 --> 00:54:00,560
Speaker 2: I don't know, you've never seen stranger things it now.

1144
00:54:00,600 --> 00:54:03,600
Speaker 3: It's sad I've been since this time by on Twitter.

1145
00:54:03,640 --> 00:54:04,120
Speaker 3: I need to go.

1146
00:54:04,320 --> 00:54:07,319
Speaker 2: There's a journalism sub story there, like you into it.

1147
00:54:07,680 --> 00:54:10,120
Speaker 3: See that's why I love secessions because it's about the

1148
00:54:10,120 --> 00:54:13,520
Speaker 3: media too, you know. I love just watching that last night.

1149
00:54:14,200 --> 00:54:14,439
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1150
00:54:14,520 --> 00:54:17,359
Speaker 3: No, no, you need people that it's a mentality. It's

1151
00:54:17,360 --> 00:54:20,840
Speaker 3: not about credentials, it's not even about experience. It's a mentality.

1152
00:54:20,880 --> 00:54:22,480
Speaker 3: And you need to find people. And that's going to

1153
00:54:22,480 --> 00:54:24,960
Speaker 3: take people that don't care about how many Twitter followers

1154
00:54:25,000 --> 00:54:28,399
Speaker 3: they have or who they're offending, and also moving them

1155
00:54:28,440 --> 00:54:30,200
Speaker 3: to places like New York and DC where they can

1156
00:54:30,280 --> 00:54:33,160
Speaker 3: just be sanitized from the background that they come from.

1157
00:54:33,360 --> 00:54:36,520
Speaker 3: Put people in places, put newsrooms in places. I completely

1158
00:54:36,520 --> 00:54:39,040
Speaker 3: agree with that from what Cornell said. I think that

1159
00:54:39,040 --> 00:54:42,200
Speaker 3: that goes a long way, and also is about admitting

1160
00:54:42,200 --> 00:54:44,080
Speaker 3: when you get to get things wrong. And I think

1161
00:54:44,080 --> 00:54:45,920
Speaker 3: that that's a huge one. But also, you know, I

1162
00:54:46,160 --> 00:54:49,919
Speaker 3: describe public editors or on Budsman could go a long way.

1163
00:54:50,040 --> 00:54:52,880
Speaker 3: People that their job is to work in these newsrooms,

1164
00:54:53,080 --> 00:54:55,040
Speaker 3: but to be the voice of the public, to be

1165
00:54:55,080 --> 00:54:57,480
Speaker 3: a check on these organizations. This is something that existed

1166
00:54:57,480 --> 00:54:59,960
Speaker 3: at places like The New York Times and Washington Post

1167
00:55:00,120 --> 00:55:03,080
Speaker 3: an MPR, and they've mostly gone away because you know,

1168
00:55:03,120 --> 00:55:05,520
Speaker 3: this idea of oh, we can't hold ourselves accountable, that's

1169
00:55:05,560 --> 00:55:07,440
Speaker 3: that might you know, turn off the audience. No, the

1170
00:55:07,480 --> 00:55:09,640
Speaker 3: audience wants that. It wants someone who you can go

1171
00:55:09,719 --> 00:55:12,280
Speaker 3: to and trust, even if you don't trust the whole organization.

1172
00:55:12,360 --> 00:55:14,400
Speaker 3: That's a step in the right direction to start to

1173
00:55:14,440 --> 00:55:16,719
Speaker 3: win back some of the trust that they've completely, you know,

1174
00:55:16,800 --> 00:55:17,720
Speaker 3: just completely lost.

1175
00:55:18,280 --> 00:55:22,000
Speaker 1: I totally agree. And so and here you are, right,

1176
00:55:22,360 --> 00:55:25,600
Speaker 1: you're the executive producer of the Megan Kelly Show, right

1177
00:55:26,000 --> 00:55:27,640
Speaker 1: and you're still doing that.

1178
00:55:28,120 --> 00:55:28,520
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1179
00:55:28,600 --> 00:55:31,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean that's a day job for sure. Yeah.

1180
00:55:31,440 --> 00:55:35,000
Speaker 1: Well, it's like it's like sometimes people find themselves in

1181
00:55:35,040 --> 00:55:39,120
Speaker 1: the exact right place, Like Megan seems like exactly that

1182
00:55:39,400 --> 00:55:42,919
Speaker 1: kind of a person right where she doesn't really care

1183
00:55:43,040 --> 00:55:46,799
Speaker 1: what corporate media says, doesn't care what liberals or conservators

1184
00:55:46,800 --> 00:55:49,480
Speaker 1: say she's like out there saying like, well, DeSantis is

1185
00:55:49,520 --> 00:55:51,399
Speaker 1: afraid to actually come and do an interview with me.

1186
00:55:51,440 --> 00:55:54,000
Speaker 2: Like, by the way, like that is awesome. I love that.

1187
00:55:54,640 --> 00:55:58,640
Speaker 1: I love that America needs more people like you in

1188
00:55:58,719 --> 00:56:01,480
Speaker 1: the media and like Megan in the media. But this

1189
00:56:01,520 --> 00:56:03,960
Speaker 1: book is a roadmap if we want to make this

1190
00:56:04,000 --> 00:56:06,319
Speaker 1: system better. Or I'm an executive at any one of

1191
00:56:06,360 --> 00:56:10,560
Speaker 1: these news companies, like you're my first phone call, Steve.

1192
00:56:10,600 --> 00:56:13,120
Speaker 3: We thank you. I appreciate that. And I will say Megan,

1193
00:56:13,160 --> 00:56:15,720
Speaker 3: you know, she's someone who's in the corporate media at NBC,

1194
00:56:15,840 --> 00:56:17,879
Speaker 3: at Fox News. She knows what it's like much more

1195
00:56:17,880 --> 00:56:19,839
Speaker 3: than even I do, and so so I mean, it's

1196
00:56:20,040 --> 00:56:22,560
Speaker 3: it's been fantastic working with her. We definitely agree very

1197
00:56:22,680 --> 00:56:24,440
Speaker 3: much on on a lot of the problems that exist

1198
00:56:24,800 --> 00:56:26,759
Speaker 3: in the corporate media structure right now. And I would

1199
00:56:26,760 --> 00:56:29,200
Speaker 3: also say, though, I really wrote the book for the

1200
00:56:29,320 --> 00:56:31,600
Speaker 3: for the public, in the sense of I want to

1201
00:56:31,680 --> 00:56:34,399
Speaker 3: lay out not just what happened over these last five

1202
00:56:34,400 --> 00:56:37,600
Speaker 3: to seven years, but why, and lay out some red flags,

1203
00:56:37,640 --> 00:56:40,160
Speaker 3: some things for you to look for, and say, Okay,

1204
00:56:40,200 --> 00:56:42,240
Speaker 3: this is happening again, because it's going to be continuing

1205
00:56:42,239 --> 00:56:44,480
Speaker 3: to happen. So here's what you should be armed with

1206
00:56:44,640 --> 00:56:47,399
Speaker 3: to know when it happens in the future, and how

1207
00:56:47,440 --> 00:56:49,960
Speaker 3: to be skeptical, not totally distrust the media, but to

1208
00:56:50,000 --> 00:56:52,239
Speaker 3: be skeptical, and what to look for so you know

1209
00:56:52,239 --> 00:56:55,040
Speaker 3: when it happens again, how to how you might be

1210
00:56:55,080 --> 00:56:58,080
Speaker 3: getting spun or lied to in this sort of propaganda

1211
00:56:58,080 --> 00:56:59,080
Speaker 3: push that's being out there.

1212
00:56:59,600 --> 00:57:02,600
Speaker 1: I love it, ladies and gentlemen, if you're listening or

1213
00:57:02,600 --> 00:57:06,040
Speaker 1: you're watching Get Uncovered, it's it's a great book. And

1214
00:57:06,040 --> 00:57:08,200
Speaker 1: and Steve, what's what's next for you?

1215
00:57:08,280 --> 00:57:08,799
Speaker 2: Real quick?

1216
00:57:09,239 --> 00:57:11,439
Speaker 3: Well? Thank you? You know you look at Megan Kelly's show.

1217
00:57:11,640 --> 00:57:13,359
Speaker 3: Is it's that's that's where we're that's where we're putting

1218
00:57:13,360 --> 00:57:15,520
Speaker 3: all our energy. I think it's going to be. It's

1219
00:57:15,560 --> 00:57:17,040
Speaker 3: an interesting time. I think we've got a lot to

1220
00:57:17,040 --> 00:57:18,360
Speaker 3: cover these these next step.

1221
00:57:18,200 --> 00:57:20,440
Speaker 1: We see an ass kicker, man, she's an ass kicker.

1222
00:57:20,800 --> 00:57:23,480
Speaker 1: It's a good place to be, you know. Sure, And

1223
00:57:23,480 --> 00:57:26,320
Speaker 1: and so get the book Uncovered. Steve, thank you for

1224
00:57:26,400 --> 00:57:31,280
Speaker 1: joining us for like almost an hour. I appreciate your time, man,

1225
00:57:31,440 --> 00:57:34,680
Speaker 1: and good luck with everything. Thanks, good talking, all right,

1226
00:57:34,720 --> 00:57:38,360
Speaker 1: take care Steve. All right, everybody that's a wrap. Steve

1227
00:57:38,440 --> 00:57:41,320
Speaker 1: is a pretty amazing guy. He's super smart. His book

1228
00:57:41,400 --> 00:57:42,960
Speaker 1: is great. You got to run out and get it

1229
00:57:42,960 --> 00:57:46,200
Speaker 1: if you want to understand how we got to where

1230
00:57:46,280 --> 00:57:49,000
Speaker 1: we are in this country today. With regards to the media,

1231
00:57:49,800 --> 00:57:53,280
Speaker 1: read the book. It's it's just a behind the scenes

1232
00:57:53,360 --> 00:57:57,800
Speaker 1: look of of everything. And if you like what you heard,

1233
00:57:57,960 --> 00:58:02,760
Speaker 1: subscribe to Battleground Podcast wherever you listen to podcasts, it's everywhere.

1234
00:58:03,440 --> 00:58:06,040
Speaker 1: Leave reviews if you feel so inclined.

1235
00:58:06,080 --> 00:58:07,120
Speaker 2: We need them.

1236
00:58:07,640 --> 00:58:10,880
Speaker 1: You can also subscribe to my brand new Rumble channel

1237
00:58:10,960 --> 00:58:13,720
Speaker 1: for exclusive content. I'm also on YouTube as well, at

1238
00:58:13,840 --> 00:58:17,640
Speaker 1: least for the time being, until I get censored or

1239
00:58:17,680 --> 00:58:23,120
Speaker 1: canceled from there. We'll see anyways, Ladies and gentlemen, thank

1240
00:58:23,160 --> 00:58:26,160
Speaker 1: you so much for listening or watching this. None of

1241
00:58:26,200 --> 00:58:31,200
Speaker 1: this is possible without you. God bless you all, and

1242
00:58:31,280 --> 00:58:56,520
Speaker 1: God bless this amazing country that we live in. Take care,