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Speaker 1: Crime stories with Nancy Grace. Will she never go away?

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Speaker 1: Why is she still talking? I'm talking about Pam Smart.

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Speaker 1: Remember her gorgeous, beautiful and an alleged crime that shot

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Speaker 1: not only a community but a country. In fact, a

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Speaker 1: story with so many twists and turned it was developed

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Speaker 1: into a major motion picture for the big screen. That's right,

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Speaker 1: Pamela Smart. You may remember her as posing on a

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Speaker 1: bed in some silky white push up. Brian Undy's that

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Speaker 1: Pam Smart. Well, here's the latest. Take a listen to

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Speaker 1: our friends at WMU nine. Smart was asking the executive

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Speaker 1: counsel for a hearing where she could petition for the

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Speaker 1: possibility of parole. Counselor Andrew Volynski was concerned about her

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Speaker 1: lack of responsibility for what happened. If she's unable to

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Speaker 1: come to terms with that, that creates concerns for me. Okay,

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Speaker 1: wait a minute, come to terms with murder. Okay, we're

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Speaker 1: hearing all of this, but how did it all start?

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Speaker 1: How are we at this point today? Take a listen

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Speaker 1: to this. Eighteen year old Pam Wojus was a freshman

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Speaker 1: in college who loved a party, and she was instantly

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Speaker 1: drawn to Greg Smart. She sat next to him down

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Speaker 1: on the couch and started flirting with him and twirling

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Speaker 1: his hair. With his rocker haircut and boyish smile, twenty

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Speaker 1: year old Greg was just Pam's type. Greg was a

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Speaker 1: great guy. If somebody said, hey, let's go away for

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Speaker 1: the weekend and it was Friday night, he would go.

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Speaker 1: Always lived like that. Greg was also known as the

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Speaker 1: ladies man. Greg was seen as usual a bunch of

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Speaker 1: other girls. A lot of the girls seemed to flock

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Speaker 1: to him, But soon after Greg met Pam, he began

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Speaker 1: to change his ways and settle down. Over time, it's

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Speaker 1: slowly got, you know, more serious and more more serious.

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Speaker 1: Pam was very excited about her a relationship with Greg.

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Speaker 1: She used to write poems and she sent me a

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Speaker 1: lot of them. When Greg surprised Pam with an engagement

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Speaker 1: ring in January of nineteen eighty eight, she accepted, Wow,

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Speaker 1: it seems like a storybook relationship, but not with a

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Speaker 1: storybook ending. You were just hearing our friends at Investigation Discovery.

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Speaker 1: For those of you just joining us, I mean, see Grace,

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Speaker 1: this is crime stories. Thank you for being with us

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Speaker 1: here at Fox Nation and Series XM one eleven. Pam

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Speaker 1: Smart hits the headlines again breaking developments in her case. Well,

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Speaker 1: I'll remember Pam Smart from the infamous photo of her

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Speaker 1: posing doggie style on a bed and a push up

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Speaker 1: bra and lingerie. Well that didn't end well. Take a

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Speaker 1: listen to our clip three our friends at Investigation Discovery.

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Speaker 1: Pam dreamed of a career in television. She was struggling

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Speaker 1: to try to find a job as a reporter, which

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Speaker 1: is what she really wanted to do. Instead, she landed

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Speaker 1: a job as the media services director for the local

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Speaker 1: school district, where her responsibilities included making educational videos. One

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Speaker 1: of the projects that she had decided to do was

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Speaker 1: some kind of a documentary which would involve some of

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Speaker 1: the kids in the surrounding high school, and that was

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Speaker 1: going to be about self esteem. She worked closely with

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Speaker 1: student volunteers, including fifteen year old Cecilia Pierce. Cecilia Pierce

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Speaker 1: was pamla Smart student in turn, and she became a

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Speaker 1: really close friend in confident, which was a little unusual.

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Speaker 1: Long haired sophomore Billy Flynn was another volunteer. He is

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Speaker 1: an aspiring rock musician, He plays electric guitar, and he's

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Speaker 1: got long hair. He is exactly what her husband Greg

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Speaker 1: used to be. Okay, wait a minute. Now she's teaching

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Speaker 1: a student and has attracted to a student that is

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Speaker 1: just like her husband how he used to be. We

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Speaker 1: definitely need a shrink for that with men All Star

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Speaker 1: panel to make sense of what we know right now

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Speaker 1: developments in the Pam Smart case. You may recall the

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Speaker 1: movie To Die For with Nicole Kidman playing the role

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Speaker 1: of Pam Smart with me Kathleen Murphy, high profile family

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Speaker 1: lawyer that's certainly putting perfume on the pig no offense.

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Speaker 1: Kathleen Murphy joining me out of North Carolina. You can

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Speaker 1: find her at m NC Domestic Law dot com or

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Speaker 1: now psychologists joining us out of the Manhattan Jurisdiction in

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Speaker 1: New York at Karen dot com. That's Karen with a C.

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Speaker 1: Doctor Tim Gallagher, medical examiner for the entire State of Florida,

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Speaker 1: lecturer University Florida Medical School, Forensic Science and founder and

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Speaker 1: host of the International Forensic Medicine Death Investigation Conference. Now

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Speaker 1: to me, that sounds like a whole lot of fun.

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Speaker 1: You can find him at PATHCAREMD dot com. Chris Buyers

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Speaker 1: joining us form Police Chief JOHNS. Creek, George twenty five

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Speaker 1: years on the force, now PI and polygrapher at Chris

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Speaker 1: Buyer's Investigations and polygraph dot Com. But first, I'm going

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Speaker 1: to go to a special guest joining us today from

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Speaker 1: Oxygen dot com, true crime author Hell and the Heartland,

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Speaker 1: whoa murder and math in the case of two missing girls.

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Speaker 1: I'm on it, Jackson Miller, thanks for being with us.

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Speaker 1: Tell me about Pam's Smart and husband Greg Smart's relationship,

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Speaker 1: and it's kind of freaky that she then takes a

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Speaker 1: liking to a boy, a team boy in her class

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Speaker 1: at school. That's just like Greg, except a newer model.

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna call in a shrink on that. But tell me,

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Speaker 1: jack Smiller, who is Pam Smart, How did she grow up?

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Speaker 1: Where is this place Darry, New Hampshire, And who is

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Speaker 1: Greg Smart? Well, it's funny that you use the word

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Speaker 1: storybook before, because Derry, New Hampshire is that story book setting.

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Speaker 1: It's that full foliage in New England. It's the church

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Speaker 1: people's poking out. It's a town of like thirty four thousand.

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Speaker 1: Oh wait, hey, you know what you just made me

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Speaker 1: think of? Sure, you know those calendars that have Jackie

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Speaker 1: shaking your hand. Yes, there's calendars, and it's a nature

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Speaker 1: and outdoors and that hosts some beautiful fall foliage picture

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Speaker 1: and then they'll have a spire poking up with a

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Speaker 1: cross on the top of a church spire in the

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Speaker 1: middle of it. It's just gorgeous. That's what you made

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Speaker 1: me think of, Jack, That's exactly what it was. And

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Speaker 1: you know, it's it's really nice because it's only like

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Speaker 1: forty five minutes away from Boston, so it's a nice

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Speaker 1: will alternative for people who don't want the hustle bustle

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Speaker 1: of the city. But it's just like it's just like

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Speaker 1: that that that story book setting what you see on TV.

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Speaker 1: It's it's that perfect New England image. In fact, Robert

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Speaker 1: Frost was from there, I believe. Really yeah, yeah, it's

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Speaker 1: it's really true. How big of a town is Dairy,

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Speaker 1: New Hampshire. So it's a it's about thirty four thousand

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Speaker 1: people and it's right in between Manchester and Salem, and

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Speaker 1: like I said, it's it's it's not the big city,

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Speaker 1: but it's close enough to the big city. Um, it's

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Speaker 1: really just like the perfect all American town. And um, yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's where that's where Greg and Pam were and they

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Speaker 1: had this this rock and roll marriage. It was it

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Speaker 1: was kind of perfect in a way. And I say

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Speaker 1: that as a metal head myself, of course, but it

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Speaker 1: was that perfect headbanging, you know, rock and roll. They

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Speaker 1: had a dog named Halen, you know, very very rock

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Speaker 1: and roll, but it seemed very loving on the outside. Okay,

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Speaker 1: hold on, I'm just drinking out of the fire hydrant here.

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Speaker 1: It's just too much, too fast. I'm sorry. Okay, the

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Speaker 1: quote perfect headbanger can roll marriage. You know, I hadn't

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Speaker 1: really thought about it like that, but I'm going to

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Speaker 1: take that into consideration. You know. Let me go to

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Speaker 1: you first, Karen Stark, New York psychologists joining us in

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Speaker 1: Manhattan today. Karen, I, first of all, I don't think

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Speaker 1: I've ever seen anyone that reminds me of my husband

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Speaker 1: in his youth. But that's kind of freaky. It's like

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Speaker 1: thinking considering replacing your husband with a younger version of

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Speaker 1: your husband. What does that mean? You know? What makes

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Speaker 1: me think of Nancy? Not a younger David, but somebody

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Speaker 1: who isn't committed to the relationship, is not really capable

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Speaker 1: of attaching having commitments. And when we think about younger version.

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Speaker 1: We're not talking about somebody who's a few years younger.

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Speaker 1: We're talking about a minor, which is totally unacceptable. That's

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Speaker 1: like pedophilia. Well, you know, if you all weren't awake

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Speaker 1: before you hear pedophilia, you're awake now. Kathleen Murphy, just

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Speaker 1: to put it ephemistically, you have seen your share of

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Speaker 1: divorce cases, have you ever? Of course, we always hear

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Speaker 1: of men, no offense, men marrying a younger woman. Don't

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Speaker 1: usually hear of women marrying a younger guy dumping their

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Speaker 1: husbands for a younger guy. But I guess it does happen.

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Speaker 1: But a long story short, Kathleen Murphy, and all the

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Speaker 1: divorces you've seen, have you seen a woman replace her

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Speaker 1: husband for a younger version of the husband? Are you

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Speaker 1: asking me if I've seen a woman replace their husband

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Speaker 1: for a child? Never, because that's exactly what Pam's I'm

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Speaker 1: asking you. Have you seen a woman replace her husband

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Speaker 1: with a younger version. I don't mean just a younger guy.

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Speaker 1: I mean somebody that looks, talks, acts, walks like the husband,

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Speaker 1: but younger. That's pretty rare. I don't do that alive.

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Speaker 1: I see them going to the opposite of what their

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Speaker 1: husband was. Ah, they go, that's a good point. That's

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Speaker 1: a good point. Spring breakers and parents beware. The disappearance

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Speaker 1: of honor student Natalie Holloway is a warning. We had

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Speaker 1: to Aruba with Natalie's mom. What can we learn Nancy

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Speaker 1: Grace's shocking new investigation streaming now only on Fox Nation.

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Speaker 1: Sign up today, Time Stories with Nancy Grace. Jackson Miller's

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Speaker 1: joining us newswriter for Oxygen dot Com and to crime author.

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Speaker 1: So Pam Smart dreamed of a career in TV, such

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Speaker 1: as being a reporter. Is that correct? That's what they say? Yes, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's that's what she wanted. She had gotten into media.

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Speaker 1: That's how she got the job at the high school.

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Speaker 1: She was a media director there. Actually, okay, yes, let

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Speaker 1: me ask you about that, Jack s Miller. Everybody, Jack's

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Speaker 1: joining us from Oxygen dot com. Jacks, what exactly was

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Speaker 1: her position at the high school? So Pam worked at

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Speaker 1: Winnikin at high school where she was a media director.

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Speaker 1: She did have high school interns working with her, including

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Speaker 1: Cecilia Pierce. And yeah, she was a media director. She

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Speaker 1: was an employee. She was about twenty two years old

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Speaker 1: and that's where she met Billy Flint. Now, what does

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Speaker 1: media director be because I understand she went off on

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Speaker 1: a tangent making some type of a documentary with the students.

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Speaker 1: Is that correct? Yeah, she made a documentary about self esteem.

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Speaker 1: I think she was trying to improve esteem with her students,

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Speaker 1: which is kind of ironic given the whole situation. But

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Speaker 1: that's what she did. She would make these videos and

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Speaker 1: involve the students. Okay, guys, take a listen now to

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Speaker 1: the student. You hear Jack's referring to Cecilia years, I

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Speaker 1: can't hear you. She sat me down in a chair,

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Speaker 1: and what did you say? She said, I think I'm

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Speaker 1: in love with Bill? And what did you say that?

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Speaker 1: I laughed? Was ridiculous? Was ridiculous? Why would ridiculous? Because

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Speaker 1: she was married? She was twenty two? What did she

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Speaker 1: do when you laugh? She just kept telling me over

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Speaker 1: and over again, I'm serious. So what happened after that?

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Speaker 1: I'm about a week later she told Bill do you

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Speaker 1: have any heart? I told Bill Pam wanted to see him.

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Speaker 1: You say about a week later told Bill audio was

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Speaker 1: a week later? I'm not positive that's when she she

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Speaker 1: told me that she told him about a week later.

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Speaker 1: You know, do you, Karen star car renowned psychologists joining

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Speaker 1: us out of Manhattan. It sounds like, um, like a

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Speaker 1: note you would send in the first grade. Do you

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Speaker 1: like me? Check yes? If so, check no, if no,

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Speaker 1: or you you know, pass it through a friend. Hey,

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Speaker 1: I like you? Will you marry me? In the third grade.

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Speaker 1: That's what she's actually getting another teen girl to tell

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Speaker 1: the teen boy Billy Flynn Bill Flynn that she quote

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Speaker 1: likes him. This doesn't sound like adults, well, none of

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Speaker 1: it sounds like an adult, Nancy. It's not any kind

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Speaker 1: of adult that we're used to. And it's it's really

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Speaker 1: that was a great, a really astute observation, because when

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Speaker 1: you think about high school, that's that's the kind of

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Speaker 1: stuff you do. You tell your friend that you like

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Speaker 1: somebody so that the friend can tell the other person

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Speaker 1: and you get an answer do you like me? Back?

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Speaker 1: And she's just not mature. She's she's one of the kids,

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Speaker 1: is how she seems to see herself. What is that

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Speaker 1: when you don't go beyond high school? Okay, this is

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Speaker 1: a little off topic, but Karen, have you ever met

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Speaker 1: those people that they still talk about, Hey, I was

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Speaker 1: a football captain in high school. That was that the

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Speaker 1: pinnacle when you were sixth ahead of the cheerleaders. They're

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Speaker 1: still they watch it. Wait a minute, I mean it's

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Speaker 1: like she never got past the high school phase. This

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Speaker 1: has more like fifth grade girls. What is that? It's

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Speaker 1: an arrested development. That's exactly what it is. It's developed

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Speaker 1: mentally delayed. It's somebody who should be a certain age,

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Speaker 1: but mentally they're not. They're not. Why does that happen?

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Speaker 1: Actual age? It's just somebody who is not capable of

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Speaker 1: getting old her. Well, maybe they don't want to grow up,

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Speaker 1: maybe they don't want to. Perhaps they might they might

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Speaker 1: not want to, but also they might not be capable,

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Speaker 1: like they've reached their peak what you said, at an

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Speaker 1: early age, and they just can't go on to be

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Speaker 1: somebody who is a complete adult, a mature you know,

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Speaker 1: capable of having any kind of real attachment. That's what

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Speaker 1: she sounds like when you are describing her, you know,

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Speaker 1: to Chris Buyers joining me for employe Chief John's Creek,

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Speaker 1: Georgia now Chris Buyers Investigations and polygraph dot com. That's

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Speaker 1: a really big mouthful for a website. Just so you know,

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Speaker 1: Chris Buyers, investigations, and polygraph dot com all one word.

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Speaker 1: I mean, you needn't think about that anyway that I's

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Speaker 1: like Chris. I mean, you investigate divorces, cheaters, all sorts

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Speaker 1: of investigations. That's just the tip of the iceberg for you.

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Speaker 1: But have you ever seen a woman very attractive woman?

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Speaker 1: Many people think she's attractive. I don't, but many people

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Speaker 1: do go for a teen boy for what Okay, obviously

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Speaker 1: for sex, but that last of about three minutes, then

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Speaker 1: that's or then what do you have? Yeah? Absolutely, this

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Speaker 1: is just absolutely absurd. I have never experienced anything like

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Speaker 1: that in any investigations I've done. It's just just completely twisted.

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Speaker 1: I mean, you know, but that's what happened. Now take

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Speaker 1: a listen to this from the horse's mouth. Um why,

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Speaker 1: I don't know, but how when we were working on

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Speaker 1: the video, I was well, I was told from the

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Speaker 1: beginning that from Cecilia that Bill had had a crush

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Speaker 1: on me, and I didn't like him at first, but

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Speaker 1: yes I did, and I did start to like him

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Speaker 1: during the filming of the Orange Shoes video. Did you

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Speaker 1: tell him anyway? Yes, I did. People want to joy

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Speaker 1: how that came above. Um Cecilia had said that Bill

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Speaker 1: was talking about me and that she thought that I

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Speaker 1: should talk to him, and I believe he came over

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Speaker 1: to my office and I had told him that I

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Speaker 1: had known he had liked me, and that I thought

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Speaker 1: he was really nice and that I liked him too,

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Speaker 1: but that I was married, and that I was not

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Speaker 1: interested in having a relationship with him. What alternative universe

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Speaker 1: are they living in? I mean, she's married. This is

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Speaker 1: a teen boy in her class that are making an

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Speaker 1: orange juice video together, and they're talking about he liked

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Speaker 1: me and I liked him. What you know, I don't know.

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Speaker 1: Jack s. Miller, you're the newswriter for auction dot Com.

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Speaker 1: I'm sure you see a lot of cases with affairs

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Speaker 1: and sex, relationships and marriages, break up and murders happened.

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Speaker 1: I saw it a lot as a prosecuting attorney. But this,

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Speaker 1: even when you hear Pama smart speak, she sounds like

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Speaker 1: a fourteen year old. I was just going to say

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Speaker 1: that if I didn't know better. I literally thought I

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Speaker 1: was listening to a fifteen year old talk about, Oh

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Speaker 1: he likes me, you know, I like him, blah blah blah.

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Speaker 1: You know, that's exactly what it sounds like. And it's

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Speaker 1: really hard for me just listening to that clip right

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Speaker 1: there to wrap my head that this is a grown

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Speaker 1: married women now And Kathleen Murphy, have you ever had

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Speaker 1: a woman come sit down in your office and she's

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Speaker 1: willing to throw her family, her home, her career, her

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Speaker 1: everything out the window to get it on with a

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Speaker 1: teen boy, which is pedophilia. I mean, have you ever

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Speaker 1: seen someone No, this is this is the crazy Nancy.

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Speaker 1: Not only did she take these steps with this minor child,

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Speaker 1: she thought that her relationship with this child was okay,

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Speaker 1: and she now she thinks she thought it was okay.

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Speaker 1: She shared her relationship with the other kids. It was

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Speaker 1: no secret, I know, which makes it even worse. Everybody knew. Guys,

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Speaker 1: take a listen to more of the story of Pam's

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Speaker 1: smart from the Horse's Mouth. Well. I didn't set out

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Speaker 1: to have an affair with him, but I did, and

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Speaker 1: in February I believe it was February twenty seventh or something.

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Speaker 1: It was during Faboi vacation. Also, while I was over

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Speaker 1: his house, we were working on the video. We were

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Speaker 1: in his room and he kissed me. I really didn't

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Speaker 1: want to have an affair, and I was trying to

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Speaker 1: fight my feelings up until March twenty fourth, where he

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Speaker 1: had On March fourth, Bill came over my house with

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Speaker 1: my condo and dairy because Greg was gone to Atlantic City.

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Speaker 1: I'd said I was going to be by myself. Cecilia

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Speaker 1: wanted to sleep over, and Bill asked if he could

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Speaker 1: come gone. Do you think it's the same as Celia? Yes, yes,

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Speaker 1: I mean this is breaking every rule of being a teacher,

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Speaker 1: which I taught English while I was waiting to find

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Speaker 1: out if I could get into law school. I mean

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Speaker 1: all the red flags. You don't teachers don't go to

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Speaker 1: children's homes when the parents are gone to tutor them.

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Speaker 1: Everything she just said was wrong. Take a listen to

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Speaker 1: what that student, Jackson Miller first told us about the friends,

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Speaker 1: seemingly in the middle of the mix. Cecilia Price, Cecilia Pierce,

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Speaker 1: did you heard anything your song? HEFTI was a happy her. Yes.

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Speaker 1: Close up. One day, when I was going to Pam's

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Speaker 1: office fifth pariod, I walked in and she was on

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Speaker 1: the phone, apparently arguing with somebody, and I looked at

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Speaker 1: her and I said Greg, and she shook her head, yes,

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Speaker 1: and she was saying something about getting in a divorce,

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Speaker 1: and then they started fighting over who was going to

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Speaker 1: take the dog and the furniture and everything. And then

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Speaker 1: she said, fine, take the dog and she hung up,

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Speaker 1: and then she said I was I told her that

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Speaker 1: was good. You know they were going to get a divorce.

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Speaker 1: And she said, well, I don't know what to do.

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Speaker 1: He's going to take the dog and the furniture. And

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Speaker 1: she called Greg's parents because I mean, she called Greg

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Speaker 1: back and told him she was sorry because she didn't

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Speaker 1: want him to call his parents because she didn't want

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Speaker 1: anyone to know they would have in trouble. And more

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Speaker 1: from Cecilia years. Listen now, when she said you could

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Speaker 1: eat a divorce with Joe Gregor, thank you serious? I

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Speaker 1: thought that she was serious, but that she wouldn't do it.

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Speaker 1: I'll have it done. Then how much How long were

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Speaker 1: you having these conversations with the defendant at this time?

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Speaker 1: At first I was just like every few days, and

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Speaker 1: then it was every day. And what kind of days

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Speaker 1: would you be talking about? What was going on so far?

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Speaker 1: Like what they had discussed last period her and Bill

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Speaker 1: had discussed, and what they had decided upon things like

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Speaker 1: to where they had tied back and to where had

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Speaker 1: dot closed, and to make it look like a burglary

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Speaker 1: of all people, Why would you confide your murder plan

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Speaker 1: two a teen girl? Why you might as well just

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Speaker 1: put up a billboard on Third Avenue in New York.

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Speaker 1: I'm going to kill my husband, might as well and

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Speaker 1: then the mama comes. Take a listen to our friends

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Speaker 1: at ABC Nightline on May first, nineteen ninety, just a

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Speaker 1: few days shy of their first wedding anniversary, everything changes.

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Speaker 1: Pamela is at a school board meeting. She gets home

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Speaker 1: about ten o'clock. She opens the front door and in

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Speaker 1: the vestival is her husband. She starts banging on door.

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Speaker 1: Somebody called ninety one. Hurry, hurry, my husband, my husband.

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Speaker 1: I was working as an investigative reporter in New Hampshire

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Speaker 1: and the scanner radio goes off and we understand that

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Speaker 1: a young man has been murdered inside his condominium. It's

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Speaker 1: got a bullet wound in the back of his head.

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Speaker 1: This looks like a mob hit. This is an execution.

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Speaker 1: I'm still hunted every day by memories of what must

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Speaker 1: have happened to him inside our how before he was killed.

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Speaker 1: It looks like Greg must have walked into the middle

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Speaker 1: of a botched, screwed up burglary. We noticed that several

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Speaker 1: things were moved. We found that the upstairs as well

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Speaker 1: had been ransacked. The dressers had been gone through completely.

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Speaker 1: Time Stories with Nancy Grace right after Doctor Tim Gallagher,

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Speaker 1: a medical examiner for the State of Florida. Doctor Gallagher,

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Speaker 1: what do the investigator mean when he said it looked

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Speaker 1: like a mob hit? What are the earmarks of a

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Speaker 1: mob hit? Oh? Thanks for having me on the show, Nancy.

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Speaker 1: You know, the earmarks of a mob hit are quite simple. Generally,

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Speaker 1: it's a single small caliber gunshot wound to the back

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Speaker 1: of the head, generally when the victim is on their

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Speaker 1: knees or on the ground somehow. How would you describe

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Speaker 1: the injury to twenty four year old Greg Smart, Doctor Gallagher?

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Speaker 1: I would describe it as a single close range gunshot

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Speaker 1: wound to the back of the head that caused skull fracture, bleeding,

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Speaker 1: and destruction of the brain. When the brain is hit by,

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Speaker 1: for instance, a twenty two caliber, which is a small caliber,

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Speaker 1: the brain immediately quits telling the heart to function, and

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Speaker 1: that's the cause of death. Correct, Well, Generally, the heart

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Speaker 1: does not need the brain to tell it to beat.

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Speaker 1: You can actually take the heart out of the body,

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Speaker 1: a beating heart out of the body, and it'll continue

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Speaker 1: to beat. It does not need the brain to tell

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Speaker 1: it to do so. But what the brain needs to

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Speaker 1: do is tell the lungs to breathe, the lungs to

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Speaker 1: expand and exhale so the person can absorb oxygen and

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Speaker 1: to exhale their carbon dioxide. So that's generally the cause

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Speaker 1: of death there, Jackie, when he was talking to that,

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Speaker 1: make you notice that you were breathing, because Okay, that

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Speaker 1: settles it. I'm totally going to the International Forensic Medicine

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Speaker 1: Death Investigation Conference. That was just it. So the brain

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Speaker 1: doesn't tell the heart to be You're right, of course

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Speaker 1: you are, And I should have known that. Because people

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Speaker 1: continue to live after their brain dead, their heart keeps beating,

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Speaker 1: so the brain has to tell the lungs to breathe.

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Speaker 1: I thought that was involuntary as well, but no, no, no, yet.

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Speaker 1: There is there's a nerve that goes from the brain

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Speaker 1: to the lungs, and that nerve has to be activated

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Speaker 1: by the brain to tell the lungs to either exhale

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Speaker 1: or inhale, so that is destroyed during the injury that

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00:26:57,280 --> 00:27:00,400
Speaker 1: they received from the gunshot wound, and that doesn't occur longer,

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Speaker 1: and that's generally the cause of death. In addition to

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Speaker 1: the destruction of the other parts of the brain, the

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00:27:07,920 --> 00:27:10,840
Speaker 1: brain swelling and skull fractures, and then the loss of

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00:27:10,880 --> 00:27:13,800
Speaker 1: the cerebral spinal fluid, that will also contribute to their

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Speaker 1: cause of death. But it's it's instantaneous. I'm curious to

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Speaker 1: a Gallagher, do you talk about topics like this when

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Speaker 1: you're not at work? Um depends on the company I keep.

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Speaker 1: I mean generally yes, yes, your wife a doctor, she is,

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Speaker 1: but she is a doctor for female cancers, so a

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Speaker 1: gynecological oncologists, right right, not guying. You don't just kick

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Speaker 1: this around with her at dinner. We'd like to watch

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Speaker 1: the shows and we talk about the shows, and we

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Speaker 1: talk about the people on the shows and if we

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Speaker 1: know them or not. UM. But generally UM medical topics

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Speaker 1: we talk about. But forensic topics such as the gore

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Speaker 1: and the blood and stuff like that, not so much,

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Speaker 1: although that's what I like to talk about. Yeah, okay, guys,

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Speaker 1: we're talking to doctor Tim Gallagher, medical examer for the

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Speaker 1: State of Florida. And remember panel jump in. We're not

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Speaker 1: at a tea party with Queen Elizabeth. So if you

425
00:28:16,400 --> 00:28:19,240
Speaker 1: have something to say, say it. Of course I'll probably

426
00:28:19,280 --> 00:28:22,520
Speaker 1: immediately cut you off. Reprimand you. But that said, and

427
00:28:22,760 --> 00:28:25,600
Speaker 1: Kathleen Murphy, are you getting the picture of this woman.

428
00:28:25,960 --> 00:28:29,640
Speaker 1: It's a grown woman and she's trading gossip about her

429
00:28:30,280 --> 00:28:33,320
Speaker 1: love or sex affair with a teen boy with a

430
00:28:33,400 --> 00:28:36,040
Speaker 1: high school girl. But you know she's not responsible for

431
00:28:36,119 --> 00:28:38,760
Speaker 1: killing Greg Smart. You do know that she's not responsible

432
00:28:38,880 --> 00:28:42,880
Speaker 1: according to Pam Smart and her mother. So guys, what happens? Then?

433
00:28:43,000 --> 00:28:45,960
Speaker 1: I find this really interesting, And I know, Jack s Miller,

434
00:28:45,960 --> 00:28:48,160
Speaker 1: you're gonna do a backflip when you hear this. Take

435
00:28:48,160 --> 00:28:51,560
Speaker 1: a listen to our friends at Real Crime Investigation Discovery.

436
00:28:52,280 --> 00:28:55,360
Speaker 1: Less than forty eight hours after finding her husband murdered,

437
00:28:55,600 --> 00:29:00,120
Speaker 1: Pam phones local TV crime reporter Bill Spencer. Pamel It

438
00:29:00,200 --> 00:29:06,440
Speaker 1: calls me and asks me to interview, which completely just

439
00:29:06,560 --> 00:29:10,760
Speaker 1: blows me away and everybody else. When Spencer arrives for

440
00:29:10,800 --> 00:29:17,640
Speaker 1: the interview, he's stunned by Pam's appearance. A little over

441
00:29:17,680 --> 00:29:20,280
Speaker 1: twenty four hours after a murder, the wife doesn't greet

442
00:29:20,320 --> 00:29:23,960
Speaker 1: you dressed to the teeth, make up perfect, hair perfect.

443
00:29:24,960 --> 00:29:28,920
Speaker 1: He's even more stunned by Pam's strange behavior. One year

444
00:29:28,960 --> 00:29:31,719
Speaker 1: ago today, we were married right about this, you know

445
00:29:31,880 --> 00:29:35,080
Speaker 1: this time. One of the first things that Pamela says

446
00:29:35,360 --> 00:29:37,800
Speaker 1: is it's going to be our one year wedding anniversary

447
00:29:38,040 --> 00:29:39,959
Speaker 1: in a couple of days. How would it be if

448
00:29:39,960 --> 00:29:42,120
Speaker 1: I go into the refrigerator because I've got the top

449
00:29:42,240 --> 00:29:44,560
Speaker 1: layer of our wedding cake and I could go pull

450
00:29:44,600 --> 00:29:46,600
Speaker 1: that out. You could get some b rolled me doing that,

451
00:29:47,040 --> 00:29:50,680
Speaker 1: And wouldn't that wouldn't that make an emotional, poignant moment

452
00:29:50,880 --> 00:29:55,240
Speaker 1: in your story? And I was like, holy cats, this

453
00:29:55,640 --> 00:29:58,760
Speaker 1: girl is helping me produce the story. She's trying to

454
00:29:59,160 --> 00:30:03,520
Speaker 1: She's trying to produce the news story. Jack's Miller. I

455
00:30:03,640 --> 00:30:08,760
Speaker 1: remember when my fiance Keith was murdered just before our wedding,

456
00:30:08,920 --> 00:30:17,360
Speaker 1: and I remember I couldn't even think straight. I just

457
00:30:17,440 --> 00:30:21,560
Speaker 1: want to go out into a forest and how I

458
00:30:21,680 --> 00:30:27,840
Speaker 1: just I couldn't even form sentences. Did you hear what

459
00:30:28,960 --> 00:30:32,840
Speaker 1: the news producer just said? Within less than forty eight

460
00:30:32,960 --> 00:30:37,200
Speaker 1: hours after the murder, pam Smart's on the phone trying

461
00:30:37,240 --> 00:30:40,800
Speaker 1: to do a lead story. I wish you could see

462
00:30:40,800 --> 00:30:43,400
Speaker 1: my face right now, my jaws on the floor, because

463
00:30:43,400 --> 00:30:45,800
Speaker 1: I've never heard that before. This is the first time

464
00:30:45,840 --> 00:30:48,640
Speaker 1: I'm hearing that, and it's I'm having a total WTF

465
00:30:48,680 --> 00:30:51,360
Speaker 1: moment here, like, what is that? What is what is

466
00:30:51,360 --> 00:30:56,800
Speaker 1: going on? It's diabolical because we she knows, Oh gosh,

467
00:30:56,840 --> 00:30:59,360
Speaker 1: I don't even have words. I don't. It's it's it's shocking.

468
00:30:59,600 --> 00:31:04,000
Speaker 1: It's what we're shocking. It's amazing. Karen start jump in. Well,

469
00:31:04,440 --> 00:31:07,760
Speaker 1: you know, I'm not the least bit surprised. Think about it. Nancy.

470
00:31:08,120 --> 00:31:12,520
Speaker 1: She's describing how she feels about this guy, and she says, well,

471
00:31:12,640 --> 00:31:15,800
Speaker 1: you know, but I'm married. She doesn't say he's fifteen.

472
00:31:16,560 --> 00:31:19,920
Speaker 1: She says, well, I'm married. Her morals are correct. She

473
00:31:20,080 --> 00:31:23,000
Speaker 1: doesn't know what she's talking about, and all she's thinking

474
00:31:23,080 --> 00:31:26,240
Speaker 1: about now, narcissistically, is that she's going to be in

475
00:31:26,320 --> 00:31:28,960
Speaker 1: front of a camera and let's get the best story

476
00:31:29,040 --> 00:31:32,440
Speaker 1: we could possibly get. I'm not surprised at all. I'm

477
00:31:32,480 --> 00:31:36,440
Speaker 1: not shocked by this. It's all about drama. She's young

478
00:31:36,760 --> 00:31:40,200
Speaker 1: in her head and she's not thinking about the loss

479
00:31:40,240 --> 00:31:44,720
Speaker 1: of her husband. Obviously not at all. Well, he goes

480
00:31:44,800 --> 00:31:47,680
Speaker 1: quickly from high school, whisperings in the hall about a

481
00:31:47,760 --> 00:31:52,760
Speaker 1: sex affair with a teacher to ballistics listen local parents.

482
00:31:52,920 --> 00:31:56,480
Speaker 1: Forty five year old Vance Ladimi claims he has information

483
00:31:56,720 --> 00:31:59,640
Speaker 1: about a murderer. Very concerned because he thinks his son

484
00:31:59,760 --> 00:32:04,040
Speaker 1: maybe involved in him homicide. Vladimy says that his seventeen

485
00:32:04,160 --> 00:32:06,760
Speaker 1: year old son Jr. And two of his friends have

486
00:32:06,920 --> 00:32:10,400
Speaker 1: been talking about committing a murder. This Ladimy gets to

487
00:32:10,520 --> 00:32:12,560
Speaker 1: find out that the gun that was supposed to use

488
00:32:12,680 --> 00:32:17,600
Speaker 1: was a thirty eight. He owns a thirty eighth. He

489
00:32:17,800 --> 00:32:20,120
Speaker 1: goes and checks to see whether his gun is in

490
00:32:20,240 --> 00:32:23,320
Speaker 1: fact still where he thought it was supposed to be. Well,

491
00:32:23,360 --> 00:32:25,880
Speaker 1: He opens his his dresser. He takes a look at

492
00:32:25,920 --> 00:32:28,600
Speaker 1: this firearm. He says, I'll wait a second. I didn't

493
00:32:28,640 --> 00:32:35,880
Speaker 1: claim this. Why is it clean now? The gun is

494
00:32:35,960 --> 00:32:39,000
Speaker 1: sent out for ballistics testing. When the results come back,

495
00:32:39,360 --> 00:32:43,240
Speaker 1: police are astonished the single bullet that killed Greg Smart

496
00:32:43,600 --> 00:32:50,760
Speaker 1: was fired from Latimy's gun. Police suddenly have three suspects

497
00:32:50,800 --> 00:32:54,720
Speaker 1: in the murder, seventeen year old j R. Ladimy and

498
00:32:54,840 --> 00:33:00,240
Speaker 1: his friends, sixteen year old Pete Randall and sixteen year

499
00:33:00,280 --> 00:33:04,200
Speaker 1: old Billy Flynn straight out to Chris Buyer's forearm police

500
00:33:04,320 --> 00:33:09,920
Speaker 1: chief now PI and polygrapher Chris Buyers. I think that

501
00:33:10,440 --> 00:33:14,800
Speaker 1: a lot of people don't get and they shouldn't. They're civilians.

502
00:33:14,840 --> 00:33:19,200
Speaker 1: Why should they know this that a ballistics match is

503
00:33:19,480 --> 00:33:24,840
Speaker 1: just as positive as a fingerprint, a human fingerprint. Explain, Yeah,

504
00:33:25,200 --> 00:33:32,280
Speaker 1: every firearm is different. The barrel has grooves in spiraling

505
00:33:32,320 --> 00:33:36,720
Speaker 1: in it, and when the projectile leaves the muzzle of

506
00:33:36,840 --> 00:33:40,640
Speaker 1: that firearm, it leaves an imprint that matches only to

507
00:33:40,800 --> 00:33:43,120
Speaker 1: that firearm. So, like you say, it's just like the

508
00:33:43,240 --> 00:33:46,239
Speaker 1: human fingerprint. There's only one of those that are going

509
00:33:46,280 --> 00:33:48,920
Speaker 1: to match up. And so it's easy when you have

510
00:33:49,080 --> 00:33:53,160
Speaker 1: that projectile to come back, find that firearm, shoot some

511
00:33:53,320 --> 00:33:55,120
Speaker 1: rounds through it and compare it and know that that

512
00:33:55,360 --> 00:33:57,719
Speaker 1: is the firearm, that that was fire farm. I always

513
00:33:57,960 --> 00:34:02,480
Speaker 1: wished I had a video to shede your ours. When

514
00:34:02,600 --> 00:34:08,960
Speaker 1: guns are actually made, they're made of boiling hot lead,

515
00:34:09,600 --> 00:34:15,960
Speaker 1: and when the barrel cools down, there are drippings and

516
00:34:16,960 --> 00:34:21,960
Speaker 1: irregularities on the inside of the barrel, the inside of

517
00:34:22,120 --> 00:34:26,040
Speaker 1: the barrel, and they harden and they can never be changed.

518
00:34:26,560 --> 00:34:32,120
Speaker 1: So when a bullet hurdles down that barrel, so fast.

519
00:34:32,960 --> 00:34:38,800
Speaker 1: It leaves markings on the bullet, scars, scratches that no

520
00:34:39,080 --> 00:34:42,680
Speaker 1: other gun can leave. So when you find the gun

521
00:34:42,760 --> 00:34:46,400
Speaker 1: in question, you take a bullet and you go to

522
00:34:46,440 --> 00:34:48,839
Speaker 1: the crime lab and you fire it into a tub

523
00:34:48,920 --> 00:34:51,920
Speaker 1: of water or a pillow, and then you take your

524
00:34:52,040 --> 00:34:55,200
Speaker 1: known bullet that you just fired and the bullet from

525
00:34:55,280 --> 00:34:57,879
Speaker 1: the body or the scene. You look at them under

526
00:34:57,920 --> 00:35:02,719
Speaker 1: a microscope and you can see the exact same squiggles

527
00:35:02,880 --> 00:35:06,480
Speaker 1: or markings on the two bullets. That is how you

528
00:35:06,560 --> 00:35:10,359
Speaker 1: do it, right, Chris, Absolutely, that's exactly how it works. Well,

529
00:35:11,320 --> 00:35:15,560
Speaker 1: amazingly there was more evidence. Jack's Miller. What do you

530
00:35:15,719 --> 00:35:20,200
Speaker 1: think was the single most damning evidence at trial? Well,

531
00:35:20,560 --> 00:35:22,239
Speaker 1: I think it was two things. I think it was

532
00:35:22,280 --> 00:35:25,239
Speaker 1: Cecilia Pierce wearing a wire to get, you know, all

533
00:35:25,560 --> 00:35:28,359
Speaker 1: the information that Pam divulged to her. And I think

534
00:35:28,400 --> 00:35:30,960
Speaker 1: it was Billy Flynn copping to a plea deal in

535
00:35:31,040 --> 00:35:33,000
Speaker 1: exchange for his testimony. I think that those were the

536
00:35:33,000 --> 00:35:38,320
Speaker 1: biggest factors. And what exactly was Billy Flynn the teen

537
00:35:38,719 --> 00:35:43,680
Speaker 1: boy lover? What was his testimony? Jacks? So he really

538
00:35:43,880 --> 00:35:48,839
Speaker 1: he said everything he was in this illicit relationship with Pam.

539
00:35:49,920 --> 00:35:54,200
Speaker 1: She was telling him that Greg was abusive. She was

540
00:35:54,280 --> 00:35:56,560
Speaker 1: afraid that if she tried to divorce him or leave him,

541
00:35:56,560 --> 00:35:58,239
Speaker 1: that he would take the dog and take the money

542
00:35:58,280 --> 00:36:01,759
Speaker 1: and take the furniture. So that's why he did what

543
00:36:01,880 --> 00:36:05,560
Speaker 1: he did. Take a listen to our friend Juju Chang

544
00:36:05,719 --> 00:36:09,200
Speaker 1: and ABC. You know in every big trial there is

545
00:36:09,239 --> 00:36:14,240
Speaker 1: that one aha moment, the moment everybody remembers was Simpson,

546
00:36:14,320 --> 00:36:17,840
Speaker 1: It was the globe. In this case, it was Pam

547
00:36:18,120 --> 00:36:23,439
Speaker 1: Smart and a white strapless bikini posing suggestively on a bed.

548
00:36:24,160 --> 00:36:27,719
Speaker 1: As if the supersensational trial isn't crazy enough already, Oh

549
00:36:27,760 --> 00:36:32,080
Speaker 1: my god. They were made between her and a friend

550
00:36:32,200 --> 00:36:35,800
Speaker 1: a girlfriend for a modeling contest. They took photos of

551
00:36:35,880 --> 00:36:39,120
Speaker 1: each other. Those photographs made it into court and the

552
00:36:39,239 --> 00:36:44,200
Speaker 1: prosecution claimed that she had deliberately taken those to be

553
00:36:44,440 --> 00:36:47,400
Speaker 1: seductive to get Billy Flynn to do her bidding to

554
00:36:47,640 --> 00:36:51,279
Speaker 1: kill her husband. She's just gonna do the mouth if

555
00:36:51,360 --> 00:36:54,640
Speaker 1: I wanted him like he When those photographs come in,

556
00:36:55,239 --> 00:36:58,880
Speaker 1: you can see it kind of was overwhelming for a

557
00:36:59,000 --> 00:37:01,320
Speaker 1: teenage point. This was a lot of sex for a

558
00:37:01,400 --> 00:37:04,239
Speaker 1: sixteen year old to have. You can get that sense

559
00:37:04,320 --> 00:37:06,840
Speaker 1: that it had a lot of influence on him a

560
00:37:06,880 --> 00:37:11,000
Speaker 1: lot of power over him, enough to make him kill.

561
00:37:11,680 --> 00:37:15,280
Speaker 1: Bill Flynn was actually fifteen at the time. Jack's miller

562
00:37:16,160 --> 00:37:20,640
Speaker 1: the You hear Pam Smart's mother insisting that these photos

563
00:37:20,719 --> 00:37:23,279
Speaker 1: that came into trial were innocent. They were taken for

564
00:37:23,360 --> 00:37:29,240
Speaker 1: a modeling contest, but they came into evidence. Isn't it true?

565
00:37:29,320 --> 00:37:33,680
Speaker 1: The prosecution says, these illicit photos taken by Pam Smith,

566
00:37:33,880 --> 00:37:37,839
Speaker 1: by Pam's Smart were given to Bill Flynn, the teen boy. Yeah,

567
00:37:37,960 --> 00:37:40,280
Speaker 1: you know, I know that that there were the photos.

568
00:37:40,400 --> 00:37:44,640
Speaker 1: I know that they had watched some sexually charged films together.

569
00:37:45,360 --> 00:37:47,480
Speaker 1: I mean, it was very clear that she was producing

570
00:37:47,520 --> 00:37:50,920
Speaker 1: as child essentially, And yeah, that was one of the

571
00:37:51,040 --> 00:37:54,600
Speaker 1: hugest factors. And how she got this this young boy

572
00:37:54,760 --> 00:37:57,880
Speaker 1: to kill for her. I mean, she can say no, no,

573
00:37:58,120 --> 00:38:00,839
Speaker 1: no until she's blue in the face. But then when

574
00:38:00,880 --> 00:38:04,799
Speaker 1: the jury sees the photos she's sending this team boy,

575
00:38:04,880 --> 00:38:07,719
Speaker 1: there's really no question in her in their minds, she

576
00:38:07,920 --> 00:38:12,759
Speaker 1: set out to seduce the boy. That's child molestation, and

577
00:38:12,920 --> 00:38:15,280
Speaker 1: then what else would she do? That was the question

578
00:38:15,360 --> 00:38:17,839
Speaker 1: for the jury. It was no big surprise when Pam

579
00:38:17,960 --> 00:38:21,600
Speaker 1: Smart was convicted. But what is a surprise is that

580
00:38:21,840 --> 00:38:26,200
Speaker 1: even to this day she refuses to acpect responsibility. Take

581
00:38:26,239 --> 00:38:30,279
Speaker 1: a listen to our friends at WBZ for Boston. I

582
00:38:30,360 --> 00:38:33,640
Speaker 1: sat down interviewed her in prison, and she told me

583
00:38:33,880 --> 00:38:37,560
Speaker 1: she will never admit to planning that murder. It's been

584
00:38:37,640 --> 00:38:40,960
Speaker 1: twenty nine years. Is it time to just admit you

585
00:38:41,200 --> 00:38:44,920
Speaker 1: did it and say you're sorry again? I don't think so,

586
00:38:45,520 --> 00:38:47,440
Speaker 1: because I don't think that a person should admit to

587
00:38:47,520 --> 00:38:49,520
Speaker 1: a crime they didn't commit. Would it be worth it

588
00:38:49,600 --> 00:38:51,520
Speaker 1: to admit it, even if it would just help get

589
00:38:51,560 --> 00:38:54,719
Speaker 1: you a hearing To me, no, I wouldn't be able

590
00:38:54,760 --> 00:38:57,120
Speaker 1: to reconcile that and live with myself. You know, I'm

591
00:38:57,160 --> 00:38:59,480
Speaker 1: saying this is my fault. What about those people who

592
00:38:59,600 --> 00:39:02,240
Speaker 1: say that's not enough? Though? I don't know if anything

593
00:39:02,320 --> 00:39:04,080
Speaker 1: I ever do is going to be enough, And you're

594
00:39:04,120 --> 00:39:05,920
Speaker 1: never going to say it. You're never going to say

595
00:39:06,000 --> 00:39:09,600
Speaker 1: I told them to kill my husband. No. So even

596
00:39:09,760 --> 00:39:12,359
Speaker 1: in this new letter, it doesn't see her position has

597
00:39:12,440 --> 00:39:15,359
Speaker 1: changed at all. She just says she accepts her role

598
00:39:15,520 --> 00:39:17,920
Speaker 1: in the crime. And one thing to note. All four

599
00:39:17,960 --> 00:39:20,880
Speaker 1: of those men convicted in the actual murder, including the

600
00:39:20,960 --> 00:39:23,120
Speaker 1: what who admitted to pulling the trigger, they've all completed

601
00:39:23,160 --> 00:39:26,560
Speaker 1: their prison sentences. That is very interesting that they've all

602
00:39:26,640 --> 00:39:29,799
Speaker 1: been parolled, but she still remains in prison. She's still

603
00:39:29,840 --> 00:39:32,920
Speaker 1: behind bars, but the trigger man has been parolled. Now

604
00:39:33,040 --> 00:39:37,480
Speaker 1: take a listen to Paula Eban w BZ four. The

605
00:39:37,560 --> 00:39:40,560
Speaker 1: Attorney General's office is now reviewing the petition and needs

606
00:39:40,600 --> 00:39:43,040
Speaker 1: to go to an executive council and then the governor.

607
00:39:43,840 --> 00:39:46,960
Speaker 1: She's filed this petition before, it has never gone to

608
00:39:47,040 --> 00:39:50,600
Speaker 1: a hearing. You what are his parents saying about it?

609
00:39:50,840 --> 00:39:54,400
Speaker 1: Greg Smart's family, we should say, always maintains that she

610
00:39:54,640 --> 00:39:58,120
Speaker 1: is exactly where she belongs, and they are united in

611
00:39:58,320 --> 00:40:00,919
Speaker 1: saying they do not believe she should ever released from prison.

612
00:40:01,000 --> 00:40:03,440
Speaker 1: We will continue to follow the developments on Governor Sanoonhos,

613
00:40:03,480 --> 00:40:06,160
Speaker 1: the only person who can ultimately make the decision if

614
00:40:06,200 --> 00:40:09,040
Speaker 1: she gets to hear it. So Jack's miller. At the

615
00:40:09,239 --> 00:40:13,000
Speaker 1: end of the day, what happens with Pam's Smart bid

616
00:40:13,080 --> 00:40:16,000
Speaker 1: for freedom. Well, this was her third time trying for

617
00:40:16,360 --> 00:40:19,880
Speaker 1: a reduction hearing, and for the third time she was denied.

618
00:40:20,320 --> 00:40:22,600
Speaker 1: And you know, it's important to mention that all the

619
00:40:22,680 --> 00:40:27,160
Speaker 1: other defendants, they all tried for reduction for a two sentence,

620
00:40:27,280 --> 00:40:29,719
Speaker 1: and they all got that they've all been released. She's

621
00:40:29,719 --> 00:40:31,640
Speaker 1: the only one left. She's the only one left behind

622
00:40:31,680 --> 00:40:35,279
Speaker 1: bars for Greg's Smart's murder, Kathleen Murphy. She's also the

623
00:40:35,360 --> 00:40:38,640
Speaker 1: only one that refuses to admit she did it. She's

624
00:40:38,719 --> 00:40:40,840
Speaker 1: not going to get out until she admits. Well, she

625
00:40:40,920 --> 00:40:44,880
Speaker 1: admits now that she's sorry for her role, as stated earlier,

626
00:40:44,960 --> 00:40:49,000
Speaker 1: But the woman had an opportunity to admit her role

627
00:40:49,080 --> 00:40:52,839
Speaker 1: when Greg's parents were alive, and she's still denied her role.

628
00:40:52,920 --> 00:40:57,040
Speaker 1: She's still denying she orchestrated it. She's saying that, yeah,

629
00:40:57,160 --> 00:41:00,239
Speaker 1: she's responsible because she had the affair with the team boy,

630
00:41:00,920 --> 00:41:03,880
Speaker 1: she molested him. She is not saying, am I right,

631
00:41:04,000 --> 00:41:08,160
Speaker 1: Jackson Miller, I planned this? This is why Greg's did right.

632
00:41:08,280 --> 00:41:12,520
Speaker 1: She's she's not owning it. And another thing that's worth

633
00:41:12,640 --> 00:41:15,800
Speaker 1: mentioning is that this whole time she said, oh, I

634
00:41:15,920 --> 00:41:18,080
Speaker 1: didn't make him do it. I didn't convince Billy to

635
00:41:18,120 --> 00:41:20,319
Speaker 1: do it. He did it himself because I was going

636
00:41:20,360 --> 00:41:23,399
Speaker 1: to break off the relationship. That's been her excuse ever since.

637
00:41:24,280 --> 00:41:31,080
Speaker 1: So this is, you know, a very pale pale image

638
00:41:31,360 --> 00:41:38,000
Speaker 1: of accepting responsibility. Pam Smart behind bars not getting paroled. Now,

639
00:41:38,320 --> 00:41:43,200
Speaker 1: that's the latest Nancy Grace crime Story, signing off goodbye friend,