Speaker 1: Of the law and Order franchises. SVU is considered especially watchable.
Speaker 2: We are the amateur detectives who kind of investigate the
Speaker 2: vicious felonies. These episodes are based on.
Speaker 3: These are our stories, done.
Speaker 4: Done, Hello, and welcome to That's Messed Up an SVU podcast.
Speaker 3: As always, I'm Kara Clank what If You Changed?
Speaker 2: And I am sometimes Lisa Trigger, and we're talking SVU
Speaker 2: the true crime the episode is based on. And then
Speaker 2: we talk to an incredible guest, and I think you
Speaker 2: guys are gonna lose your fucking.
Speaker 3: Cool for today's guest.
Speaker 2: A dramatic episode, a dramatic moment in history and time.
Speaker 1: And honestly, we're gonna have a dramatic intro right now,
Speaker 1: because you know, listen, we're in a bit of a
Speaker 1: time machine. I know everyone at by the time this
Speaker 1: episode comes out, we will have been raging about this
Speaker 1: for a couple of weeks. But as we're recording, it
Speaker 1: has just broken that the Supreme Court is likely going
Speaker 1: to overturn Roe versus Wade, And I just feel like
Speaker 1: I've been walking around like numb the last few days,
Speaker 1: Like I like, I yelled at my husband and was
Speaker 1: like why don't you ever say anything about it? And
Speaker 1: he was like okay, and he liked did some tweets,
Speaker 1: and I was like, you know, I it's like Lisa
Speaker 1: has pointed this out before too, yet like you don't
Speaker 1: hear enough men speaking up about this, Like I want
Speaker 1: to hear.
Speaker 3: Everybody talking about this more.
Speaker 1: And it's like we were fully gas lit since twenty sixteen.
Speaker 3: Oh, row is law, row is Law.
Speaker 1: We're gonna be fine, and now here we are and
Speaker 1: it's sad, but I think we can also work to
Speaker 1: affect change and help people. So we actually have been
Speaker 1: in touch with Planned Parenthood of California, and look, California
Speaker 1: is a place where we're never probably going to lose
Speaker 1: the right to abortion. We are very lucky that Lisa
Speaker 1: and I both live here, and you know, our governor
Speaker 1: is very is very invested in keeping abortion like a
Speaker 1: codified law in this state.
Speaker 3: So we are probably good.
Speaker 1: But Plan parent of California is actually doing a lot
Speaker 1: to help these other states. So we'll have a link
Speaker 1: in our show notes on how to donate to them
Speaker 1: and on our Instagram stories and stuff like that. And
Speaker 1: also they are running this campaign called say Abortion, and
Speaker 1: it's just encouraging people to tell their stories about their abortion,
Speaker 1: to talk about abortion. Let's get abortion out from the whispers,
Speaker 1: like it's not anything shameful to talk about, and let's
Speaker 1: pressure lawmakers to go along with what seventy five to
Speaker 1: eighty percent of this country wants, which is reproductive access
Speaker 1: for everyone and reproductive freedom. So go to say abortion
Speaker 1: california dot com, even if you don't live in California.
Speaker 1: They have lists of all these different rallies and stuff
Speaker 1: that are happening.
Speaker 3: In all different states.
Speaker 1: Like I just went on really quick and I saw Wichita, Cleveland,
Speaker 1: like everywhere, and so it's a great right now, it
Speaker 1: feels like, Okay, what are we doing, where are we marching?
Speaker 1: Where are we giving money? And I think they have
Speaker 1: kind of a good concentrated place where you can see
Speaker 1: what's going on in your area. You can donate to them,
Speaker 1: and they're they're helping. This is not going towards I believe,
Speaker 1: abortion access in California. This is going towards like you know,
Speaker 1: helping abortion funds in other states and stuff like that.
Speaker 1: And also we're going to be working on disseminating abortion
Speaker 1: funds on our Instagram as well.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and we are doing a abortion deep dive episode
Speaker 2: in a few weeks, so right now we're touching on it.
Speaker 2: It's it sucks. I don't even the numb is a
Speaker 2: good thing. Like I feel not surprised, not shocked, not anything.
Speaker 3: It's like we all fucking knew this forever.
Speaker 2: Like the moment Kevin All got put into the court,
Speaker 2: Clinton tweeted like Roe v.
Speaker 3: Wade is done, guys, And that was in twenty eighteen.
Speaker 2: And so often women are meant to like, oh, you're emotional,
Speaker 2: you'r irrational, you're over blahlah blah, you're you're over exaggerating,
Speaker 2: and it's like, no, what we feel is real. And
Speaker 2: even now, I did the dumb thing of going on
Speaker 2: Twitter and looking at Matt Gates posted some dumb bullshit
Speaker 2: and I was just looking at the comments and it's
Speaker 2: just people saying the dumbest fucking shit, and someone's like, ugh,
Speaker 2: women always acting so emotional, and it's like, yeah, I
Speaker 2: don't know why that's bad, Like everything that is feminine
Speaker 2: is deemed as bad, Like, yeah, maybe if men were
Speaker 2: more in touch with their emotions, there wouldn't be school
Speaker 2: shooters and genocide and war. I don't know, like, yeah,
Speaker 2: maybe you got like what makes you think you guys
Speaker 2: have killed it at life?
Speaker 3: When the world sucks, you.
Speaker 2: Know what I mean, even for you guys, Like yeah,
Speaker 2: I it's it's really appalling, and it's just horrific thinking
Speaker 2: of all the people that are gonna feel desperate and
Speaker 2: in danger and they're well and I.
Speaker 1: Think that's your planned parenthood of California is like is
Speaker 1: like trying to help, you know, getting people to our
Speaker 1: state and helping people with get access in our state
Speaker 1: if they can't get it in their own And I
Speaker 1: you know, you just reminded me when you talked about
Speaker 1: this Matt Gates thing.
Speaker 3: Now I can't find it, of course.
Speaker 2: But well it's about just like oh, you're over educated
Speaker 2: and you have a cat, and it's like the ideas
Speaker 2: of who gets abortions. You know, these guys they're just
Speaker 2: like they don't care because it's not about that, you know,
Speaker 2: it's like whatever you choose to fuck, And it's like,
Speaker 2: well that's there. Clearly that's your dumb and you're missing
Speaker 2: a very important element of all of this, which is
Speaker 2: assaults and incest. But also just like the idea of
Speaker 2: who gets abortions when it's truly like mothers who already
Speaker 2: have four kids. It's it's business ladies, it's educated people,
Speaker 2: it's twelve year olds. There was like a provider who
Speaker 2: posted all the different patients she saw in a year
Speaker 2: and a half. And the other delusional thing I saw
Speaker 2: online was some dumb anti abortion bitch being like, oh,
Speaker 2: you know, look at all them like protesting and being violent,
Speaker 2: and look at us. We we've been saving lives slowly
Speaker 2: on a grassroots level, getting together and like, and then
Speaker 2: all these women this woman posted actually when I worked
Speaker 2: and at a Planned Parenthood and I'd open the mail
Speaker 2: in an air tight room so if there was anthrax,
Speaker 2: I'd be the only one to die. And then it
Speaker 2: just started as a whole trend of people being like, yep,
Speaker 2: when I and I mean abortion doctors have been fully murdered.
Speaker 3: Yeah, these people are harassing.
Speaker 2: And then there was one woman who she said she
Speaker 2: was really pregnant and going to Planned Parenthood for services
Speaker 2: outside of abortion, and people were like trying to convince oh, no,
Speaker 2: she worked there. People were like the protesters were yelling
Speaker 2: at her like, don't do it, don't do it. She goes,
Speaker 2: I work here, And then they started throwing rocks at
Speaker 2: her and she was seven months pregnant. Like, these people
Speaker 2: are delusional at who they are, what they think they
Speaker 2: are doing. They think they're these like calm saviors of
Speaker 2: babies who are revolutionizing shit, and they they are delusional.
Speaker 2: These are QAnon fucks, like these are religious monsters and
Speaker 2: they're not people who listen to others, are in tune
Speaker 2: with others, or care actually for people like all these people,
Speaker 2: I doubt they donate. I doubt they do what care does,
Speaker 2: and you know, are casas and helping people in foster care,
Speaker 2: like they're not doing shit.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean I also, like I was just trying
Speaker 1: to find it, but I like saw this thing in
Speaker 1: someone's feed too about that. Somebody wrote this thing that
Speaker 1: was like, if you want to give your organs after
Speaker 1: you die, you need to fill out consent. So essentially,
Speaker 1: this law gives women less rights than a corpse because
Speaker 1: it is saying you must carry this baby, like you
Speaker 1: do not get this choice here. I think Analie's found it. Yeah,
Speaker 1: no one has the right to use your body to
Speaker 1: save another's life without your consent, Like you're just you're
Speaker 1: not allowed to just say, hey, I need your blood.
Speaker 3: Hey, I need your organs, like you know, you just can't.
Speaker 2: It's just not well. And there's no rea or talking
Speaker 2: to these people because if they were rational humans that
Speaker 2: listened and were in reality, they would understand the complexities
Speaker 2: of what abortion is and what I mean.
Speaker 3: There's people who don't.
Speaker 2: We don't talk about you mentioned like you know, the
Speaker 2: say abortion campaign, But I was recently talking with someone
Speaker 2: that like can't have children and had miscarriages and like
Speaker 2: didn't know that it took forever to have kids. Like
Speaker 2: people don't know about periods. I was doing some period
Speaker 2: jokes in Pittsburgh and some guy yelled out like I
Speaker 2: don't want to hear about that, and you know, I
Speaker 2: did a fun joke like that he should go down
Speaker 2: on people with periods for iron, and I got on
Speaker 2: a break like I'm fucking good. But it was this
Speaker 2: thing of like he didn't want to hear it. But
Speaker 2: I talk about come for like thirty minutes. So it's
Speaker 2: like you were totally fine hearing me talk about jizz
Speaker 2: forever and then one mention of period made you yell out,
Speaker 2: like it's it's all about femininity. It's like people don't
Speaker 2: like the comments sometimes online about periods where it's like
Speaker 2: it's every twenty eight days and it's like, actually it's
Speaker 2: irregular or it's heavy or it's not. Or people miscarry
Speaker 2: all the time and abortion is regular and d and
Speaker 2: sometimes you have I don't even know this stuff, but
Speaker 2: I know sometimes you want to keep your baby and
Speaker 2: you can't and you have to do these things. Or
Speaker 2: people's family members would have died if they had to
Speaker 2: be forced to give birth. It's like these people, it's
Speaker 2: hard to talk to them because it seems that they
Speaker 2: were open to anything. They would have already realized.
Speaker 3: This now, you know.
Speaker 1: It's like, I have members of my family that are
Speaker 1: anti choice and li.
Speaker 2: Then I just looked at my phone. It's eleven eleven.
Speaker 2: I think we can make a collective wish. Let's make
Speaker 2: a collective wish.
Speaker 3: Great.
Speaker 1: I have members of my family, though, who are anti choice,
Speaker 1: who are not these QAnon wacko people that you think of,
Speaker 1: you know what I mean that are throwing rocks at
Speaker 1: pregnant people outside of a planned parenthood.
Speaker 3: Like it is it is like.
Speaker 2: Oh, but they're religious, but it's a religious things, right,
Speaker 2: it's not even religious, and what is it. It's like
Speaker 2: this is I think this is a life and that's it.
Speaker 2: And like some but are they fighting as much for
Speaker 2: when the people are born? Are they fighting against the
Speaker 2: death penalty? It's bullshito. No, no, it's whatever they say.
Speaker 2: That's a lie, that is a bullshit. It's like it's
Speaker 2: that is not real because if it was real, they
Speaker 2: would be doing other things.
Speaker 3: They're not.
Speaker 2: No, absolutely.
Speaker 1: But the other thing too, is like when you talk
Speaker 1: to people like this that are like, oh, well, this
Speaker 1: is just when I think a life happens. They also
Speaker 1: agree with these exceptions of rape, exceptions of incest, these
Speaker 1: certain exceptions, and it's like, yes, but there are too
Speaker 1: many exceptions. There are too many things. It has to
Speaker 1: be blanket. It has to be blanketly like granted and
Speaker 1: not want.
Speaker 2: To have a kid and that is fine, yes to me,
Speaker 2: Like being like, oh no, it's more broad, Like being
Speaker 2: anti choice is crazy to me. To me, Like, it's
Speaker 2: not the majority like eighty percent.
Speaker 1: Like I saw a poll today that was like twenty
Speaker 1: percent of people are saying that they believe in this
Speaker 1: because it's a control thing that the end of the day,
Speaker 1: no matter how you.
Speaker 2: Twist it, it is I don't believe.
Speaker 3: In this so you can't do that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, you know a lot of Jewish people were
Speaker 2: posting that in Jewish faith it is absolutely mandatory to
Speaker 2: do an abortion to save.
Speaker 3: Them other's life. Yeah, you know what I mean.
Speaker 2: So what is your You know, it's control and arrogance
Speaker 2: and thinking that people need to live the way you
Speaker 2: need to live. And to think that you're saving babies
Speaker 2: from a giant genocide, go fuck yourself. You know what's
Speaker 2: really happening. There's kids in cages. Why don't you go
Speaker 2: help them? On American soil. There's kids in cages being
Speaker 2: fucking human trafficked by government officials. Why don't you worry
Speaker 2: about that? These are all bullshit people. I don't respect them,
Speaker 2: I don't like them, and I don't have to be
Speaker 2: nice to them. If I was in a conversation with
Speaker 2: someone and they revealed that they were anti choice, I
Speaker 2: would get up and walk away. I would have no
Speaker 2: reason to have the people in my life or entertain them. Yeah,
Speaker 2: and that is a that is a hard line for me,
Speaker 2: and I don't you know. If there are people on
Speaker 2: this podcast, I don't care, write us an email. I
Speaker 2: don't give a shit. I'm not changing my point.
Speaker 1: If you are pro if you are anti choice, and
Speaker 1: you listen to this podcast, I mean, wow, well listen,
Speaker 1: we're going to get more into this in a couple
Speaker 1: of weeks when we do, like Liza mentioned, a more
Speaker 1: abortion specific episode, and you know, there's a lot of
Speaker 1: move We obviously wish we could do one very soon.
Speaker 1: There's a lot of moving pieces to this podcast. We're
Speaker 1: not dragging our feet. We've had the idea to talk
Speaker 1: about this for a long time. Also, this was a leak.
Speaker 1: This wasn't supposed to come out until June.
Speaker 2: But I also believe do you hear this that they
Speaker 2: leaked it on purpose so people are mad now, so
Speaker 2: then when it's overturned, people will be calm.
Speaker 1: And it's like, yeah, but we need to like keep
Speaker 1: the outrage up. I don't think that that's difficult to
Speaker 1: keep the outrage up for May and June. I mean
Speaker 1: we had a full summer of like protesting for Black
Speaker 1: Lives Matter. I think people can keep it up. So
Speaker 1: I really hope that's that's bullshit. But I have heard
Speaker 1: that theory from other people that they leaked it on
Speaker 1: purpose to like sort of dull the rage when the
Speaker 1: actual decision comes down.
Speaker 2: Not those fuckers. Fuck everyone. But I don't want this
Speaker 2: to all be so can What can you tell people
Speaker 2: about your Monday Night?
Speaker 3: Maybe?
Speaker 2: Yeah, just so it's like a little bit of a
Speaker 2: positive twist.
Speaker 1: So yeah, So Monday night, I went to this wonderful
Speaker 1: show hosted by a drag queen named Tony Soto in
Speaker 1: Silver Lake at the Amazing Gay Bar Act Bar.
Speaker 3: It's an amazing, amazing.
Speaker 1: Bar that I love to go to and I'd never
Speaker 1: been to this before and it was like, it's just
Speaker 1: a lip sync contest. It's like you sign up and
Speaker 1: it's almost like a lip sync open mic. You can
Speaker 1: just sign up and go up and lip sync to
Speaker 1: whatever song you want. Some people are in drag, some
Speaker 1: people are fully just in their their street clothes, just
Speaker 1: doing whatever.
Speaker 3: It was so fun. Tony is such a funny host.
Speaker 1: My two friends Brent and l It from the You're
Speaker 1: Making It Worse podcast were judging it and it was
Speaker 1: I just.
Speaker 2: Had a blast.
Speaker 1: Shake Cool was there, former friend of the pod guest
Speaker 1: from our very first live show, and I got to
Speaker 1: hang out with Shay and Maxwell from the Top Model
Speaker 1: podcast and everybody and Shay's boyfriend Dan who we love
Speaker 1: like it was just a really really fun night and
Speaker 1: an unexpected, like Monday night thing. I was just like,
Speaker 1: I'm just gonna go check this out, and then it
Speaker 1: turned out to be like just one of the funnest
Speaker 1: nights I've had in a while. And then we got
Speaker 1: an email offering Lisa and I to be judges, So
Speaker 1: mark your little calendars down.
Speaker 3: We're gonna be judging learn the words.
Speaker 1: Bitch at Acbar on July eleventh, So really excited about that.
Speaker 1: And then I'll also plug one other quick thing we've
Speaker 1: we A couple of weeks ago, we told a lot
Speaker 1: of you guys about the podcast Ruined, which is hosted
Speaker 1: by our friends Alice and Lebey and Hallie Keefer. It's
Speaker 1: where one girl loves the other one hates it and
Speaker 1: she explains a horror movie to the horror hater, and
Speaker 1: it's like a fun little podcast about horror. If you
Speaker 1: whether you love the horror you hate it, You've got
Speaker 1: one person on there that.
Speaker 2: You can identify with.
Speaker 1: And I'm going to be a guest host of it
Speaker 1: today on today's episode of Ruined. So go to Apple
Speaker 1: or Spotify or wherever you podcast and check out I'm
Speaker 1: the one getting explained to, because you guys know I'm
Speaker 1: not a huge horror girl.
Speaker 2: So yeah, that's.
Speaker 1: Coming out today. And then, as usual, I want to
Speaker 1: plug our tour dates. You guys, we are touring around
Speaker 1: a little bit still. We've got shows coming up. Let
Speaker 1: me tell you. We've got shows coming up in San
Speaker 1: Diego on June fifth, San Francisco on June ninth. And
Speaker 1: I don't think we've announced it on the podcast yet
Speaker 1: that we are coming to Minneapolis.
Speaker 2: If you live in the.
Speaker 1: Midwest, if you live anywhere within driving distance of Minneapolis,
Speaker 1: come see us at the Minneapolis Comedy Festival. That's on
Speaker 1: June nineteen. Look, the show is at four o'clock in
Speaker 1: the afternoon. You can drive back to wherever you live
Speaker 1: and you can get home in time to, like, I
Speaker 1: don't know, put your kids to bed or whatever you need.
Speaker 1: But it's kind of a fun afternoon thing on Father's Day.
Speaker 1: Ditch your father or the father in your life and
Speaker 1: come see us. And we just found out also that
Speaker 1: right after Minneapolis will be heading to dun Da Da
Speaker 1: Da Da Da, Liza's hometown of Chicago, two.
Speaker 3: Shows at Zany's so excited.
Speaker 1: We're gonna be at Zany's Downtown on June twentieth and
Speaker 1: June twenty first two shows listen. It's a small room
Speaker 1: and I kind of think that people listen in Chicago,
Speaker 1: So get your tickets quickly so that you know you
Speaker 1: don't get left in the cold and you don't get
Speaker 1: to come see us in Chicago. We're so excited, guys,
Speaker 1: You've all been so awesome coming to see us on tour.
Speaker 1: And even if you don't live in one of these cities,
Speaker 1: we're probably coming to your city soon. Thank you for
Speaker 1: all the comments on Instagram telling us what's you live in.
Speaker 1: But if you live in if you have friends in
Speaker 1: the places where we're coming.
Speaker 3: Please spread the word.
Speaker 1: Help us be able to sell tickets so that we
Speaker 1: can come to your.
Speaker 2: City and we have fun. We have a good time.
Speaker 3: Yeah, no, we have a blast.
Speaker 2: My big claim to fame with a celeb this week
Speaker 2: was I got to do Natasha Lazio and Mosha Casher's
Speaker 2: podcast Endless Honeymoon And it was at the Masonic Theater
Speaker 2: at the Hollywood Forever Cemetery. I've ever been there, and
Speaker 2: what a place, what a place. It feels so special
Speaker 2: and I was indoors. It wasn't outside at the time.
Speaker 2: It was in the Masonic Lodge and which is on
Speaker 2: the grounds, but they have an whole artistic program and
Speaker 2: it's gorgeous in there. And my mom was like, when
Speaker 2: I was talking to her, she goes a show it
Speaker 2: a cemetery.
Speaker 3: What's going on in California?
Speaker 2: Like it is like wild, it's so celebratory, but we
Speaker 2: are in Hollywood and a lot of famous people are
Speaker 2: buried there. But Fred Ormison was the other guests with me,
Speaker 2: so I got to fucking just casually hang out with
Speaker 2: a fucking snl legend and everyone was so funny. But
Speaker 2: he had his fiftieth birthday party at that lot at
Speaker 2: the part, you know, and his friends got together and
Speaker 2: his big gift was they got him a plot at
Speaker 2: the cemetery.
Speaker 1: Wow.
Speaker 2: So he has a plot and all of his friends
Speaker 2: like presented it to him on his fiftieth birthday at
Speaker 2: the at the Masonic class. Wow. They're like, this is
Speaker 2: where you're gonna be buried.
Speaker 3: Wow. Yeah.
Speaker 2: But it was cool doing someone else's podcast live and
Speaker 2: it was so fun and there was people asking for advice.
Speaker 2: But Mosha Natasha just so funny and quick and like
Speaker 2: so funny I and Fred. I mean I was just
Speaker 2: laughing and laughing and it was just like a special
Speaker 2: evening and I can't wait.
Speaker 3: To go back to that cemetery.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I've been on I've been at a couple of satyrs.
Speaker 1: Guy Branham does these satyrs that are so fun there,
Speaker 1: like he fully plots them out like a game show
Speaker 1: and they're all these little mini games and stuff. And
Speaker 1: it's a lot of comedians and then a lot of
Speaker 1: like just his gay friends and it's so fun.
Speaker 2: And Mosha Natasha have been at a.
Speaker 1: Few or one was on Zoom during the pandemic, and
Speaker 1: it always feels like I'm like trying to make them laugh, Like,
Speaker 1: so I they are so funny, and I'm.
Speaker 3: Sure the show was so awesome.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and there was a couple we had to make
Speaker 2: fun of them, but they came to the Netflix as
Speaker 2: a joke festival for their honeymoon. Wow, And so Natasha
Speaker 2: was like, well we went to Bora, Bora, but cool.
Speaker 3: So that. Yeah, just like a.
Speaker 2: Couple fun things that we did while the world burns
Speaker 2: around us that maybe will lead us into this horrific episode. Yeah,
Speaker 2: damn things, Thanks for being our friends, and yeah, listen
Speaker 2: to this podcast. Yeah, let's get started, because this has
Speaker 2: been you know, on account of our ranting, this has
Speaker 2: been a beefy intro, and we do have a very
Speaker 2: fun hot episode for you.
Speaker 3: So here it is.
Speaker 2: So today we are doing Making a Rapist Season eighteen,
Speaker 2: episode two, and you know, it's a tough one, I
Speaker 2: would say, but thrilled.
Speaker 3: And I was also thinking, I'm.
Speaker 2: Happy for the writers and everyone that Warren Light took
Speaker 2: a few days off or a few seasons off so
Speaker 2: they didn't have to do eighteen letters and they could
Speaker 2: just have making a Rapist, which is a good title,
Speaker 2: you know what I mean. Yeah, they didn't have to
Speaker 2: play any Anagram games. So congratulations to the writers of
Speaker 2: season eighteen with a chill title. Now we do open
Speaker 2: on Joe Biden, which is jarring because.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and thank you to everybody who's reached out and
Speaker 1: said please get Joe Biden as a guest on the podcast.
Speaker 2: I don't know what we would.
Speaker 3: Have asked him. He's on for two minutes.
Speaker 1: But I also think it would be really funny to
Speaker 1: have secret service on a Zoom with us or something.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, he can't even do his job. Right now.
Speaker 2: I don't know if you can get an extra podcast
Speaker 2: in that schedule of his truly, just can you do something? Okay,
Speaker 2: he is vice president at this point, if you are unaware.
Speaker 2: So he is talking about abuse of power and that
Speaker 2: rape is the worst abuse of power and how hard
Speaker 2: it is for women to heal, and then again like
Speaker 2: the victim isn't believed in rape kits, how invasive they are,
Speaker 2: they're not tested, and we fail women all the time.
Speaker 2: Oh and then he goes like, and now we're here
Speaker 2: to celebrate this squad. So the sixteenth Precinct is getting
Speaker 2: a vice president. Hero welcome and he knows Olivia Benson
Speaker 2: and everybody. So that's I just wonder how this came about, Like, yeah,
Speaker 2: did he reach out?
Speaker 3: Did she reach out? Did they meet up an event?
Speaker 1: But saw him at like a dinner and was like,
Speaker 1: let's talk, joyful heart, and would you want to come
Speaker 1: and do this? Like for sure, I think vice presidents
Speaker 1: can do little like cameos on shows and it's not
Speaker 1: like that weird.
Speaker 3: I guess it's weird to be president now.
Speaker 2: Well, I didn't realize vice president was such a disrespected
Speaker 2: job until the show V Yeah.
Speaker 3: And then it was thrilling. I'm like, wow, I guess they.
Speaker 1: Just go to county fairs and that's the way that
Speaker 1: they're the way that they do Kamala dirty all the time.
Speaker 3: It's like, yeah, the show kind of warned you, you
Speaker 3: know that it was going to be like this.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but people love proximity to power. Yes, And everyone
Speaker 2: is staring at Joe Biden very seriously. We have Benson's
Speaker 2: behind him, and then Ice Rollins and Creasy in front
Speaker 2: with the crowd and there's like thirty people listening to
Speaker 2: Biden speak. He calls Benson a friend and he congratulates
Speaker 2: her and she, you know, she thinks it's an honor.
Speaker 2: And since we've started clearing the rape backlog, he says,
Speaker 2: we've taken rapists off the street, prevented future crimes, and
Speaker 2: now we're able to write a terrible wrong.
Speaker 3: And we're getting into the thick of the episode.
Speaker 2: Here we find out sixteen years ago a man named
Speaker 2: Sean Roberts was convicted of a rape, and then they
Speaker 2: panned to a white man with like a anchor hair
Speaker 2: and outfit. He did not commit the rape because and
Speaker 2: they found that out because they processed a rape kit
Speaker 2: in Detroit and found the real rapist and now Sean
Speaker 2: is able to be free after sixteen years incarcerated. And
Speaker 2: they also panned the camera to a mother daughter duo
Speaker 2: who the mom is played by Kelly Williams. Hell, yes,
Speaker 2: if you watch the practice, this is a big day
Speaker 2: for us all. And there's a lot of press at
Speaker 2: this event, and Sean is thanking everyone and he's been
Speaker 2: out of jail for a month and it feels great, obviously,
Speaker 2: and he says he has no ill will towards Melanie
Speaker 2: and Ashley, that's the mother daughter duo, and they want
Speaker 2: to make amends, and Ashley reveals she invited Sean to
Speaker 2: her future wedding and they're going to be friends. And Benson,
Speaker 2: shocked by that, nuds she's judgy. There's a subtle brow
Speaker 2: lift there. And then the mom, Melanie, walks over to Benson,
Speaker 2: who says, wow, so you guys have gotten close, and
Speaker 2: she says she's just glad that Sean has forgiven her
Speaker 2: and Finn says, hey, it was an honest mistake, girl,
Speaker 2: but let bygones be by guns. Finn throw out those
Speaker 2: whole episodes like whatever mistakes happen, like he truly could
Speaker 2: not care less about falsely imprisoning a man field close
Speaker 2: to two decades, like I will mention eight times throughout
Speaker 2: this episode of Finn just being like, I think I
Speaker 2: did my job. I don't know what you want me
Speaker 2: to do, like truly does not care, and we know
Speaker 2: that about him. He goes home to play video games.
Speaker 2: A job is a job, and he wants to sit
Speaker 2: at the.
Speaker 1: Probably have to detach a little bit when you're in
Speaker 1: a job like that.
Speaker 3: I don't know.
Speaker 1: I feel like that's ICE's philosophy, you know, Yeah.
Speaker 2: And then Finn mentions that Ashley was six the last
Speaker 2: time he saw her, so we realized that Finn handled
Speaker 2: this big case. And so she's getting married a child
Speaker 2: bride at twenty six, so that is happening. And they're
Speaker 2: taking Sean out for his birthday tonight. This is a
Speaker 2: very fast and furious relationship and it's the first time
Speaker 2: that he can legally drink, so he's ready to get lit.
Speaker 2: She says have fun, but does not mean it, and
Speaker 2: then says stay safe, and I think she does mean
Speaker 2: that by she I mean but and obviously ominous background
Speaker 2: music plays and we cut to police lights flashing. Finn
Speaker 2: walks in front of the lights, pissed as hell. Melanie
Speaker 2: asked for Finn specifically, so he walks in and a
Speaker 2: uniformed cop explains to Alan's what went down. So the
Speaker 2: mom Melanie was sleeping, she smelled smoke and called it in.
Speaker 3: Her daughter asked.
Speaker 2: She was raped, strangled, stabbed, burned, poured with bleach, Like,
Speaker 2: are you fucking kidding me?
Speaker 3: Before the cold open?
Speaker 2: I all, I, I just am like, and then we
Speaker 2: see her burned hands, which again it's a lot they
Speaker 2: were before the credits, it's a lot.
Speaker 3: So we see the burned hands.
Speaker 2: We get this list and then Melanie, you know, Melanie
Speaker 2: says she came down and found her like this and
Speaker 2: she did hear a man's voice and she says it
Speaker 2: was Sean, So that sucks and they all look very worried.
Speaker 2: Credits and we're back and we're in the hospital and
Speaker 2: Benson is giving a seamless recap to get us on
Speaker 2: the same page. While it looks like a just a
Speaker 2: calm chat, but really she's giving us the lowdown so
Speaker 2: we don't forget anything. Ashley Harper was raped and stabbed
Speaker 2: and Sean Roberts is responsible, So how like we what
Speaker 2: the fuck? Finn says, the mom heard his voice, but
Speaker 2: they all went to dinner, so like were they hanging out?
Speaker 3: Like what fucking happened?
Speaker 2: Rollin says, there is no sign of forced entry, and
Speaker 2: the kitchen knife is missing, and you know they did
Speaker 2: the bleach, did get rid of all the DNA, and
Speaker 2: so now they're going to track down the fiance and
Speaker 2: they're going through all her texts and social media. They're
Speaker 2: really working hard and quick for the case. Benson says,
Speaker 2: we need to be sure about every single detail. She
Speaker 2: does a deep breath, which I understand. This is going
Speaker 2: to be a stressful day. And Cariese's here and they
Speaker 2: need to talk to Sean and Melanie and everyone. Honestly,
Speaker 2: they have to talk to everyone. And you see Benson
Speaker 2: take on like Kragan's traffic police, like crossing guard the energy.
Speaker 2: Finn gets like defensive and he's like, what, I'm off
Speaker 2: the case, and she goes absolutely not. If you step away,
Speaker 2: it looks personal, you're fucking on the case, okay. And
Speaker 2: Benson goes to talk to Miss Harper and she's wet
Speaker 2: in the eyes. The daughter is still in surgery, and
Speaker 2: there's just like it's not good, a lot of blood,
Speaker 2: a lot of burns.
Speaker 1: She's really good in this, like Kelly Williams, like she
Speaker 1: just like is so like we've seen a lot of
Speaker 1: grieving moms. We've seen a lot of this, and I'm
Speaker 1: just she has the perfect like a combination of like
Speaker 1: sadness but also like shock. She's so shocked, like in
Speaker 1: shock from this trauma. And she's really really good in this.
Speaker 2: And you always talk about like the one tear drop dropping,
Speaker 2: but like for this, it's like the wet stays in
Speaker 2: her eyes. Yeah, the whole thing, like it bills and
Speaker 2: doesn't even drop. And you're right, this is a like
Speaker 2: a career defining performance. She just got me. I was like,
Speaker 2: oh my god. Well that's also the worst way to
Speaker 2: find your child.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: And they also seem like the kind of mother and
Speaker 1: daughter who are like my mom's my best friend, Yeah,
Speaker 1: which I would never say, but I think a lot
Speaker 1: of people do like to say that.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: And I also I'm with Benson and I don't think
Speaker 2: anyone should have gone out with this convict.
Speaker 3: But whatever, I guess by don to be bygones.
Speaker 2: So Benson, you know, is asking about Sean, and Melanie
Speaker 2: said that she heard them talking around midnight and she
Speaker 2: went to shower and went to sleep, and then so
Speaker 2: they have to talk to Sean.
Speaker 3: So that's all we have.
Speaker 2: Like she didn't see anything, She can't think of anyone
Speaker 2: that would hurt her daughter and especially not her fiance Zach.
Speaker 2: But then she remembers, like, fuck, the engagement ring wasn't there,
Speaker 2: and I think that's why they zoomed in on her
Speaker 2: burned hands to like your shadow. I thought it was
Speaker 2: just to upset us, but I think it's to show
Speaker 2: that the engagement ring wasn't there, So it is very
Speaker 2: smart television making.
Speaker 3: Then we get a doctor to walk in.
Speaker 2: I don't know who he is and I don't care,
Speaker 2: and he just shakes his head no, which means Ashley
Speaker 2: did not make it, so she's dead. This is sad,
Speaker 2: Poor Ashley, Poor Melanie, and Melanie starts full on crying
Speaker 2: the news. Finn and Rawlins go to Sean Roberts's apartment
Speaker 2: and Finn says he has thirty million reasons not to
Speaker 2: leave town, which is alluding to Sean's lawsuit against the state. So, like,
Speaker 2: you know, once you're in prison for sixteen years falsely,
Speaker 2: you can sue people, so he is suing the department
Speaker 2: for like thirty million dollars. He opens the door, he
Speaker 2: seems confused, like why they want to talk, and he
Speaker 2: does not let them inside. They give them the news
Speaker 2: and he looks shocked, Oh my god, what happened?
Speaker 3: Ashley's dead.
Speaker 2: He seems very stressed and he wants to go comfort
Speaker 2: Melanie immediately, and he is put off by them wanting
Speaker 2: to ask him questions like you know, do I need
Speaker 2: a lawyer?
Speaker 3: And Ronin's like, why would you need a lawyer?
Speaker 2: And it's like, are we ignoring he did spend sixteen
Speaker 2: years in prison.
Speaker 3: False.
Speaker 2: This happens throughout the episode where they're like, why is
Speaker 2: he acting like this? Why do you distress the cops?
Speaker 2: What's the problem? Like they are so stupid in this episode,
Speaker 2: And he says something that for some reason, I think
Speaker 2: this is the first time in eighteen seasons someone said that.
Speaker 2: But he does say, anytime you talk to the cops,
Speaker 2: you should have a lawyer, And no one ever has
Speaker 2: said that. No one's ever put it out there like that. Yeah, no,
Speaker 2: put it on a T shirt. They'll ask for one.
Speaker 2: But like that, clearly, it's like, do not talk to
Speaker 2: any fucking cop.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 3: He points to Finn and says, you taught me that
Speaker 3: burn Ooh, I learned it from watching you dad.
Speaker 2: He denies being at the house after dinner or at all.
Speaker 2: He says, eleven eleven thirty, he went to a strip
Speaker 2: club and he has a bandage on his hand, so
Speaker 2: roll And says, and you hurt your hand at the
Speaker 2: strip club and he says yes. And then I didn't
Speaker 2: go alone, and I had a fucking friend, So you
Speaker 2: go talk to him. It's my friend Jeff Nichols. And
Speaker 2: he was at the birthday dinner too, So he lets
Speaker 2: them know Hell'sgate Diners where Jeff works, and so and
Speaker 2: he goes, and I need to leave because I need
Speaker 2: to call Melanie and I need to make sure she's okay.
Speaker 3: Go talk to Jeff. Go fuck yourself.
Speaker 2: And it's also like Melanie will not be okay, Like
Speaker 2: there's no there's no need to check out.
Speaker 3: She's doing terrible, but have at it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Like the closeness is weird, Like she needs me,
Speaker 1: her wrongly convicted rapist, to call her right now in
Speaker 1: her hour of need.
Speaker 2: Like it's just it's weird. Yeah, not her sister best
Speaker 2: friend crying coworker. Yeah, a falsely imprisoned man who like
Speaker 2: within the month they got that closed.
Speaker 1: Because it's not like they were that it was right.
Speaker 1: It's not like they were corresponding. Yeah, yeah, that is
Speaker 1: so true. Finn goes, we're putting on marked car on him.
Speaker 1: I don't give a fuck. Let's stalk him, just in
Speaker 1: case he wants to run. And they go to the
Speaker 1: diner and I do see hash Browns, and that's exciting.
Speaker 1: This chef cook, he has a bandan on and he says, yeah,
Speaker 1: after dinner, we went to the ballet ask the strippers,
Speaker 1: so a real wise guy. I also love seeing the
Speaker 1: papers and schedules on the back wall. I don't know
Speaker 1: if you noticed that, with like four leaf clover magnets
Speaker 1: and pins and so there are some details of this show.
Speaker 3: Really gives me such.
Speaker 2: An appreciation for the crew and all the production designers
Speaker 2: that they Yeah, it would.
Speaker 1: Be fun to talk to a production designer for the
Speaker 1: show too, for sure.
Speaker 2: Yeah, because I you know, I worked at a restaurant
Speaker 2: and I do love sheets on a wall with our
Speaker 2: schedules and rules.
Speaker 1: Yes, I do shut paperwork and like how to stop
Speaker 1: someone from choking in the kitchen and it's like stained
Speaker 1: because it's next to the dishwasher.
Speaker 3: Yeah, totally.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's so cool to see people's attention to detail
Speaker 2: and be able to appreciate it. And he's not cooperating
Speaker 2: the way like the way that they would like, so
Speaker 2: they threaten him with pearle violations. He finally admits that
Speaker 2: Sean told him to say what he's been saying, and
Speaker 2: you know, obviously you guys try to jam him up
Speaker 2: last time, so he's scared, and Finn looks pissed again. Dude,
Speaker 2: come on, and he turns on his friend quickly. I mean,
Speaker 2: these are jail friends. They don't go a fuck. He says, yeah,
Speaker 2: we were at the strip club, but he didn't come
Speaker 2: until two in the morning. He said Sean would never
Speaker 2: hurt her though he adored Ashley and was always there
Speaker 2: for her. And we also get info that her fiance
Speaker 2: threatened to break up the engagement. So we cut to
Speaker 2: a man in a tan suit, baby blue dress shirt
Speaker 2: and interrogation very easy, sir, prep wedding vibes, and he's
Speaker 2: sad and he did love Ashley a lot, and he asked,
Speaker 2: you know what happened and Rollins goes, well, we we
Speaker 2: wanted you to tell us, and Chrisy asks himone was
Speaker 2: the last time you saw her and he says, right
Speaker 2: before they went to dinner with that convict. He lies
Speaker 2: about them fighting, and Rollins is like, honey, we went
Speaker 2: through her text, so there's no reason of like lying.
Speaker 2: We know that you were fighting. And in the text
Speaker 2: he did ask for the ring back. He says, yeah,
Speaker 2: I was pissed. We made plans and she blew me
Speaker 2: off for Sean and he's like, I get it, but
Speaker 2: it doesn't make the guy a saint. Like, yes, he
Speaker 2: did spend jail like unfairly, but it doesn't make him
Speaker 2: this like amazing fucking human And I'm pissed that I
Speaker 2: got blown off for that.
Speaker 3: But he said he was at a bar.
Speaker 2: He was at the Dakota Bar two blocks away from
Speaker 2: Ashley's house though does not look good, but also his
Speaker 2: apartments right there. And he did say that he was
Speaker 2: at the bar all night except a girl spilled red
Speaker 2: wine on him, so we went home to change and
Speaker 2: came back. And they do not love that at all.
Speaker 2: He says, I didn't kill ash Are you guys crazy?
Speaker 2: I have nothing to do with this, and it cuts
Speaker 2: to Barbara and a corkboard suspects. So far, barges corkboard
Speaker 2: sexual and the suspects are just Sean and Zach.
Speaker 5: So far.
Speaker 2: Rollins is going through Ashley's social media, and she does
Speaker 2: have a lot of male followers, and so they're looking
Speaker 2: at all the.
Speaker 1: I like, actually, if you look at my followers, I
Speaker 1: think I'm like eighty percent women and twenty percent male,
Speaker 1: So like I liked it. If something happened to me,
Speaker 1: they'd be like, she's like mostly female followers, So I
Speaker 1: don't think it's like anything from her social Oh my.
Speaker 3: God, I'm so curious. I want to know.
Speaker 2: So and the timelines are all really tight, so like
Speaker 2: from midnight till nine one one call at one twenty,
Speaker 2: Like there's not much wiggle room in terms of like
Speaker 2: when this could have occurred. And Sean doesn't have an alibi,
Speaker 2: but Zach does. The bartender did confirm the red wine incident,
Speaker 2: also still missing the knife from the kitchen, and Finn
Speaker 2: is just like whatever, it's Sean, and Rollins goes, no,
Speaker 2: there's a Charlie Dopkins in her messages on social media
Speaker 2: and her asking this man to please stop looking in
Speaker 2: her window. So let's go talk to fucking Charlie Hopkins.
Speaker 2: And so it's August sixteenth, let's see what's up in
Speaker 2: the summer summer heat. And they ask a woman coming
Speaker 2: out of an apartment building, and truly, I can't like
Speaker 2: report on her, like do you I don't do you
Speaker 2: have a take on this woman? Like I could not
Speaker 2: get a read on what this character was, but like
Speaker 2: what they wanted to portray or anything, like just I
Speaker 2: am like blacking.
Speaker 1: Out on who you're talking about. Described Yeah that's my point. Oh, okay,
Speaker 1: she's just like a neighbor. But I was like, are
Speaker 1: you doing laundry? Are you sketchy? Or are you a nos?
Speaker 1: Like I could not figure her out. But also it
Speaker 1: is just a quick line. I don't know, I shouldn't whatever.
Speaker 2: This woman does help the detectives out, even though truly
Speaker 2: cannot get a read on her. If you guys have
Speaker 2: any opinions or what you think, maybe this will be
Speaker 2: a fun story. We'll post a photo of her and
Speaker 2: people can write in the comments who they think she
Speaker 2: is and what her backstory is. But she says, go
Speaker 2: check the roof, and Creasey finds a tent with weed
Speaker 2: and pills and hand lotion and tissues and a futon
Speaker 2: mattress with pillows and blankets and.
Speaker 3: Tissues.
Speaker 1: It's like, yeah, disgusting, like spank shack on a roof,
Speaker 1: it's like sough.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and the roof though, like you can see right
Speaker 2: into Ashley's window, so you know they're not they're not
Speaker 2: loving what they're seeing. And then they Creesy says they
Speaker 2: found he found Coney Island whitefish in the tent, Like
Speaker 2: did he have a container of whitefish for bagels? Or
Speaker 2: is this like a code word that I don't know about,
Speaker 2: Like is this cocaine or is this truly whitefish?
Speaker 3: You know what I mean?
Speaker 2: Yeah, but I didn't even know Coney Island made their
Speaker 2: own whitefish.
Speaker 3: Like it was just very confusing.
Speaker 1: Wait, should I google this really quick and see if
Speaker 1: it's like let me just google it, and I think
Speaker 1: Lisa's on it. It's a used condom, used kdom.
Speaker 2: This is huge, This is exciting.
Speaker 3: We got to the bottom of it.
Speaker 2: But the eating whitefish like a bagel, No.
Speaker 1: This is like somebody with like the New York slang
Speaker 1: was in the writer's room and was like, yeah, I
Speaker 1: left the Coney Island Whitefish behind. I guess I don't
Speaker 1: really have a name for a used condom. I'm just like, ew,
Speaker 1: there's a used condom on the floor, like on the ground,
Speaker 1: Like I never have had like a cute nickname for it.
Speaker 2: Yes, so now we know it's Coney Island whitefish is
Speaker 2: a used condom. An Alas does not look happy with
Speaker 2: the news, disgusted, but of course Caresy would say that,
Speaker 2: oh my god, that's so fucking funny after they find
Speaker 2: the used condom, and I feel, as listeners, you should
Speaker 2: be really grateful that we found that out for you,
Speaker 2: because I bet you didn't know, and maybe you guys knew.
Speaker 3: Maybe you're all hip and from stack, I bet you.
Speaker 1: Our comments on this episode are going to be filled
Speaker 1: with like what people call used condoms. They're gonna be like, oh,
Speaker 1: we call that like a yeah, we call that like
Speaker 1: a sad sack from Sunnyside or whatever, like yeah.
Speaker 3: Jesse Bloom.
Speaker 2: And Charlie finally walks in and he sees the cops
Speaker 2: and starts running, and of course it's the classic I
Speaker 2: didn't do anything, and it's like okay, well, and then
Speaker 2: Rollins is holding a bloody knife in her hand and goes, well,
Speaker 2: what's this? So I do love that Benson is now
Speaker 2: talking to the mom of the victim and letting her
Speaker 2: know they found the murder weapon and makeup and hair
Speaker 2: really killed it in terms of like really making her
Speaker 2: look like a grieving woman. And she says they didn't
Speaker 2: know the neighbor boy well but thought he was odd,
Speaker 2: but they didn't think much of it. But they asked
Speaker 2: Melanie to like look through all his junk from the
Speaker 2: tent to see if we find Ashley's stuff in there.
Speaker 2: But we don't have any final answers on if the
Speaker 2: killer is this boy Charlie or not.
Speaker 1: And this boy Charlie is played by a kid named
Speaker 1: Cody Costro, who I recognize from Mayor of Easttown. Okay, yeah,
Speaker 1: I think we're gonna see more.
Speaker 3: From this guy.
Speaker 2: Okay, So this is the beginnings for him, the beginning, Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: all right, you heard it here first.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 2: So he's an interrogation with Careesy and Rollins and is
Speaker 2: being asked and he keeps me like, can I call
Speaker 2: my mom?
Speaker 3: And they're like, no, he had a bloody knife.
Speaker 2: We're not calling your mom, sir, And did you take
Speaker 2: this photo of Ashley through her window, and he's like, well, yeah,
Speaker 2: she always stood there. She clearly wanted me to see.
Speaker 2: Fucking psycho Incel.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I was.
Speaker 1: Getting Hold in March vibes from him, like immediately, like
Speaker 1: I was like, oh, this guy, I bet he's very nice,
Speaker 1: like the actor that plays Hold in March, but the
Speaker 1: character I know.
Speaker 3: I just remembered we talked a little hold in March
Speaker 3: and so nice.
Speaker 2: God, we talked to such good people. It's really unfair
Speaker 2: to everyone else in the world. Okay, he does have
Speaker 2: a girlfriend named Chavn who told him it was fucked
Speaker 2: up to take pictures of the girl, but he didn't care,
Speaker 2: and they're trying to trick him to more. And so
Speaker 2: then his mother and girlfriend come running into the precinct
Speaker 2: and ask for you know, ask Finn for Charlie, and
Speaker 2: Chavon is wild and it's like, you need to let
Speaker 2: him go now, and I just can't imagine having the
Speaker 2: balls to talk to Iced Tea like.
Speaker 3: That, Like I just I really can't.
Speaker 2: And they say listen, he will confess and agree to
Speaker 2: anything because he has maybe has feel alcohol syndrome. They
Speaker 2: don't really talk about why he's so easily influenced, though
Speaker 2: I don't really get it. Yeah, but it's weird. He
Speaker 2: has some sort of issue where he's a people pleaser
Speaker 2: in a weird way, but they don't diagnose him.
Speaker 3: So I don't know.
Speaker 2: But the girlfriend says he didn't do it.
Speaker 3: I have proof. He was with me all night long.
Speaker 2: So he was having sex with Cheven and they took
Speaker 2: a bunch of videos of themselves fucking with time codes.
Speaker 2: So he's actually like on camera the whole time having
Speaker 2: sex and did not commit the crime. He said he
Speaker 2: picked the knife up off the curb after the killer
Speaker 2: dropped it. So Liv is like, okay, now you're a witness,
Speaker 2: so can we like get some more information, like what
Speaker 2: exactly did you see when? So they're back on the
Speaker 2: roof trying to recreate the drama and get his like
Speaker 2: memory going. He said he saw a white man who
Speaker 2: dropped something in the trash bag, so we went to
Speaker 2: go get it, and Chrasey's like, yay, the knife, we
Speaker 2: already know that. Can you just maybe tell us something new?
Speaker 2: We need you to be sure though. It's a murder investigation,
Speaker 2: so like, can you please be on it? But Amanda
Speaker 2: starts flirting. She can't really help it, so she's begging
Speaker 2: him to focus. Then shows him photos and he's straight
Speaker 2: up is like, I'll do whatever you want.
Speaker 3: You're pretty, Like he's calling Amanda pretty.
Speaker 2: He's so in love with her and they're just showing
Speaker 2: and he goes out live for you.
Speaker 3: I don't give a fuck, like to will this help you? Like,
Speaker 3: tell me what to do.
Speaker 2: I'll say whatever you need, and she goes, no, we
Speaker 2: just need the truth. Just tell us the truth. We
Speaker 2: didn't know games. But she is eye fucking him. So
Speaker 2: it's like what mix messages, very mixed messages, But don't
Speaker 2: say yes if you're not sure, and he says, yes,
Speaker 2: I'm sure it's Sean. I swear that it's Sean. But
Speaker 2: I don't feel like this is reliable. The squad is
Speaker 2: now their full big jacket gear and they're ready to
Speaker 2: pick up Sean. He screams, this is harassment. You need
Speaker 2: a warrant, and they go, yeah, we have a fucking warrant.
Speaker 2: So Finn goes and immediately finds Ashley's diamond ring in
Speaker 2: the kitchen sink drain. Rollins asks him how it got there,
Speaker 2: and he says, I don't know but they arrest his
Speaker 2: ass obviously, and before that they can finish the miranda rights.
Speaker 2: He's like, shut up, I know I was innocnth and
Speaker 2: I'm I said now as they take him away, he's
Speaker 2: an interrogation but alone waiting for his lawyer.
Speaker 3: And who's the lawyer? Buchanan?
Speaker 2: Baby, So you know this motherfucker's guilty. If you're hiring Buchanan,
Speaker 2: you did it. And Benson is like, wow, he swooped
Speaker 2: in fast, and it's like, yeah, that is his job.
Speaker 2: And also, this man did spend sixteen years in jail
Speaker 2: for a crime he didn't commit. Why are we forgetting this?
Speaker 2: But we love Buchanan and Benson and Finn, Phil and Barbara.
Speaker 2: You know, there was blood found on one of his
Speaker 2: shoes in the ring and it's everything by the book,
Speaker 2: and Barbara isn't a purple tie and I don't know
Speaker 2: if we've ever seen that before, and it's not a shirt,
Speaker 2: so I feel like it's appropriate and okay for me
Speaker 2: to mention. And Buchanan's like, honey, the lawsuit price has
Speaker 2: just went up for harassment. And Chrisy says, we found
Speaker 2: the engagement ring in the drain period and stop like,
Speaker 2: what more can you say? And Buchanan accuses Finn of
Speaker 2: framing him and that it's a frame up job. Rolin says, damn,
Speaker 2: I hope you're getting a discount because your lawyer's fucking
Speaker 2: dumb as hell, and Buchanan says Sean is not a
Speaker 2: murder or a rapist and he has never committed a crime.
Speaker 2: Sean then says, you really think I would do that
Speaker 2: to her? She was nice to me. She's the only
Speaker 2: person who's ever been nice to me. She treated me
Speaker 2: like I was normal. And Rollin goes, yeah, and then
Speaker 2: you raped and killed her as a thank you good job,
Speaker 2: And he says, no, I did not.
Speaker 3: I know what it's like to be raped.
Speaker 2: I would never And now we find out a little
Speaker 2: bit more details about him, and he got he went
Speaker 2: to jail at eighteen years old, one hundred and forty pounds.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so that's something to think about.
Speaker 2: But they are taking him back to jail, and that's
Speaker 2: not good in terms of trauma if he was being
Speaker 2: raped since he was eighteen all the time in this jail.
Speaker 1: There should be like weight class jails, Like small people
Speaker 1: all get to go to one.
Speaker 3: Big guys all get to go to one. I don't know,
Speaker 3: I think it would.
Speaker 2: Be I like that idea, but you know, in con Air,
Speaker 2: Steve Buscemi is the tiniest but with the most gear
Speaker 2: on his face.
Speaker 3: You know, I've never seen con Air, but I hear
Speaker 3: what you're saying. Yeah, you never know, because and orange
Speaker 3: is the new black.
Speaker 1: Like sometimes like tiny women were like tough ass bitches,
Speaker 1: you know, So I could see how that would could backfire.
Speaker 1: But I just feel bad when like really young small
Speaker 1: guys go to jail or just.
Speaker 2: See if they didn't commit the crime, yeah, or if
Speaker 2: they did no. I mean, I think law enforcement should
Speaker 2: be better about people getting fully raped under their care. Yeah,
Speaker 2: but that's the world we live in, and it fucking blows.
Speaker 2: But Steve Bmi in con Air, his whole thing is
Speaker 2: like talking about crimes of passions versus crimes of necessities
Speaker 2: and the great to do it out of passion, and
Speaker 2: he goes into this weird thing, and Nicholas Cage is like,
Speaker 2: stop talking to me, but we got to put that
Speaker 2: on the big screen. Let's like do a projector.
Speaker 3: It's a really in my backyard, do it.
Speaker 2: It is like a projector style popcorn blockbuster.
Speaker 3: Of a movie like it is just huge.
Speaker 2: Okay, this is not a Connyer podcast, and I will digress.
Speaker 2: I'm just saying size isn't everything, But I do believe
Speaker 2: that people should not be put in a place where
Speaker 2: they are obviously going to be raped with no repercussions
Speaker 2: or anyone helping them.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: The detectives in Barba are scared though, that the jury
Speaker 2: is going to buy this frame story, and Barba goes, yeah,
Speaker 2: I mean people are going to feel bad for him,
Speaker 2: and Finn goes, no, it is different this time. Melanie
Speaker 2: walks in and Barbara introduces himself and he was hoping
Speaker 2: it was somebody else, but evidence it is what it is.
Speaker 2: And Benson's like, I'm sure we can't even imagine how
Speaker 2: you're feeling right now, And Finn and Benson and Melanie
Speaker 2: are talking and we see Sean being dragged out handcuffed
Speaker 2: by Chrisy and Rollins is with Buchanan and He's screaming
Speaker 2: at them, you can't do this to me again. Is
Speaker 2: this because I made you look bad because of the lawsuit?
Speaker 2: Please I'll stop. No, no, no no, And then Melanie
Speaker 2: starts crying. It's just like a lot on her, and
Speaker 2: now we're in court. His friend from the strip club
Speaker 2: night is on this Dan saying how he was joking
Speaker 2: around about how Ashley should leave Jack for him, and
Speaker 2: after Ashley was like crying about her fiance and Sean
Speaker 2: was like, I'm gonna be a millionaire, like fuck me,
Speaker 2: I'm gonna get rich, and she was fine and playing along,
Speaker 2: but then he got drunk and he started acting stupid.
Speaker 2: So the women left and didn't really like the way
Speaker 2: he was acting, but that he did feel bad for
Speaker 2: his drunk behavior, so we went back to their house
Speaker 2: to apologize. And then he really liked Ashley and thought
Speaker 2: that she was hot and that she liked him too,
Speaker 2: So is that why he went back like to have
Speaker 2: sex with his crush?
Speaker 3: Like what is this? Like, what's happening?
Speaker 2: And then there's an objection and now it's time for Buchanan,
Speaker 2: who's gonna poke some holes in the testimony, and he's
Speaker 2: such a dick and he's just like, oh, so you're
Speaker 2: a mind reader? Any other magical powers you have? So
Speaker 2: he's laying it on in terms of grease ball, and
Speaker 2: we get a peek at the judge and it's Queen
Speaker 2: Elena Barth love her redhead. That's not the other redhead
Speaker 2: Lewis Lois Louis, Yeah, do you always call her Judge Louis.
Speaker 2: Now on stand is some sort of professional guy and
Speaker 2: he's talking about transitioning as a wrongly convicted inmate to
Speaker 2: a free citizen. And this guy says, it's like pretty
Speaker 2: impossible to do that because you know, you're trying to
Speaker 2: make sense of everything, and it's very trauma inducing. It's
Speaker 2: a lot to suffer, and it's the same kind of
Speaker 2: trauma as people that are veterans of war or torture survivors,
Speaker 2: like a mood debas if you remember that episode from
Speaker 2: season eleven and those who are I cannot believe that
Speaker 2: name just popped into my head, but I'm pretty proud
Speaker 2: of myself and those who were raped a bunch in jail.
Speaker 2: It makes it even harder, and it makes dating hard
Speaker 2: and like you know, it's very easy to misread social
Speaker 2: cues and it makes it hard to deal with rejection.
Speaker 2: So there's just like, obviously a lot happens too when
Speaker 2: you're in jail and wrongly, so expert opinion, wrongfully imprisoned
Speaker 2: then raped, Like, what are the chances he could live
Speaker 2: a normal life and the sky goes impossible and Buchanan
Speaker 2: does the classic we all know what he's about to do.
Speaker 3: Have you ever met my client?
Speaker 4: No?
Speaker 2: Okay, so your expert opinions don't really work with him
Speaker 2: and are based on other people's testimony and are a
Speaker 2: complete waste of time. Yes, And that's that so very
Speaker 2: very complicated case. And we bring in Charlie, who's a mess.
Speaker 2: Rollin says he's not bright. Finn and Barbara I have
Speaker 2: an exchange and Finn just doesn't feel like Barbara trusts
Speaker 2: him or his action, but Barbara's just like, listen, I do,
Speaker 2: but I can't put you on in fin Leaves and
Speaker 2: we're in court, Charlie's talking and I'm like, oh my god,
Speaker 2: Buchanan's gonna.
Speaker 3: Kill your fucking ass. And he does.
Speaker 2: He goes, wow, so you were having fun with your
Speaker 2: girl on the roof. Good for you, lucky guy. And
Speaker 2: then it's like, hey, so you were doing drugs, you
Speaker 2: were drinking, you were fucking it was dead of night,
Speaker 2: you're on a roof and you absolutely saw this man
Speaker 2: like okay, well, and then while he's like talking on
Speaker 2: the stand, he goes well and Detective Rolins and then
Speaker 2: he stops talking, but Buchanan already heard it, so sorry, bro,
Speaker 2: and he goes, wait, what about Detective Rollins?
Speaker 3: And he says, did she tell you to say something?
Speaker 2: And Charlie goes no, And they were like, did she
Speaker 2: encourage you? Like tell us what went down? And he said,
Speaker 2: I got a shoulder pat and I thought she wanted me,
Speaker 2: so I told her what she wanted to hear because
Speaker 2: I got a shoulder pat.
Speaker 3: And he can't.
Speaker 2: And he can't tell if the shoulder pat was like
Speaker 2: before after the fucking was before after a Sean.
Speaker 3: I mean, this kid's a mess. My notes are a mess.
Speaker 2: We're moving on, okay, So I Buchanan asks another question
Speaker 2: and there's like a big pause and Charlie just like
Speaker 2: keeps looking at Rollins, and Buchanan has to go, hey,
Speaker 2: I know Rollins is hot, but you gotta stop looking
Speaker 2: at her and start telling the truth. Look at me, Charlie,
Speaker 2: why did you say what you did? And he said,
Speaker 2: I thought she would like it if I said it was,
Speaker 2: you know, after the fucking So Buchanan's like, so she
Speaker 2: flirted with you to say what she wanted and he says, no,
Speaker 2: I just wanted her to like me, and she needed
Speaker 2: to solve the case.
Speaker 3: And Buchanan's doing.
Speaker 2: A very very good job as a lawyer, but shame
Speaker 2: on them for even putting him on the stands.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Barbara, come on, buddy, I find it hard to
Speaker 1: believe Barbara would have done that.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: I hope our friend Robert did not write this episode
Speaker 2: because we hate this part. Barbara looks pissed, Benson looks pissed,
Speaker 2: Amanda looks pissed.
Speaker 3: Commercial break.
Speaker 2: Now we're back and Barba's screaming at the detectives like
Speaker 2: the principal is mad and he's letting these bad.
Speaker 3: Bad students know that he is pissed.
Speaker 2: Amanda is like, relax, and he goes no, and then
Speaker 2: and they all just are not understanding the gravity of
Speaker 2: the situation. And then Amanda let it slip, like, how
Speaker 2: is it my fault? This kid had a crush on me?
Speaker 2: And Benson turns to her like, wait, you knew the
Speaker 2: kid had a crush on you. And Cariese starts defending
Speaker 2: his woman and you know, the future mother of his
Speaker 2: step kids, and he goes, hey, you stop that. I
Speaker 2: was there, and Barbara goes, shut the fuck up. I
Speaker 2: making excuses for her, and Kries turns it on Barbara
Speaker 2: and goes, it is not my fault that bu Can
Speaker 2: and fucking spun that shit and you couldn't do your job,
Speaker 2: and Benson goes, okay, okay, we're done, let's stop. So
Speaker 2: she's defending her number one man, Barbara. So there's just
Speaker 2: like a lot of you know, jets versus sharks? Is
Speaker 2: that a reference? Barbara says like, we're not going to
Speaker 2: get a conviction with what has happened so far, so
Speaker 2: we really do need physical evidence. But how are we
Speaker 2: going to get this evidence? So we're back in court
Speaker 2: and Finn's on the stand giving the play by play
Speaker 2: of his search at Sean's apartment and Barba asks about
Speaker 2: the ground with a defendant and he says, well, yeah,
Speaker 2: now that he killed Ashley, and you know, of course
Speaker 2: an objection and it is sustained, and then Finn adds,
Speaker 2: if anything, I was rooting for the guy when he
Speaker 2: got out, no grudges. And now it's Buchanan's turn at Finn,
Speaker 2: and he's like, are you embarrassed? This is okay, this
Speaker 2: is what I'm like, Finn, come on. So Buchanan's like
Speaker 2: are you embarrassed about putting an innocent man in prison
Speaker 2: for sixteen years? And he goes, nope, I didn't put
Speaker 2: him there. I just arrested him and he just did
Speaker 2: his job. And it is the way it is, and
Speaker 2: that is wild, but it's true, but is wild. And
Speaker 2: Buchanan just comes for his ass. He's like, you know,
Speaker 2: would you feel better now if he's found guilty, so
Speaker 2: then all of your reputations will be vindicated that he
Speaker 2: is an actual criminal. And I says, like, shut shut up,
Speaker 2: like I said, I did my job then and I
Speaker 2: did my job now, and he goes, you mean framing
Speaker 2: Sean Roberts again, Barba objection Benson with a dirty stare
Speaker 2: at Buchanan. And now we're at a hot dog stand
Speaker 2: where Finn isn't a he's looking fly as he Honestly,
Speaker 2: I think this is the sexiest he's ever looked. He
Speaker 2: has sunglasses on, like a really nice blue fitted suit
Speaker 2: like I was just like okay, Coco, like.
Speaker 3: I was really happy about this.
Speaker 2: And he's talking to Melanie and he's telling her like
Speaker 2: this guy is guilty and we will get him, and
Speaker 2: she goes stop. I don't know if it's true, like
Speaker 2: nobody really knows. And she's like, we're all just guessing
Speaker 2: and connecting the dots, and Finn is like I found
Speaker 2: as she's ring in his drain, come on, and she,
Speaker 2: of course is just questioning herself with what happened last time,
Speaker 2: and she doesn't know what to think and Fin leans
Speaker 2: in and goes, did you hear his voice or not?
Speaker 2: Melanie then says I'm not sure now, and he goes,
Speaker 2: but you said it at the crime scene. You just
Speaker 2: have to tell the truth. You don't have to convict him.
Speaker 2: The jury decides all you have to do is say
Speaker 2: the truth. And she is scared what if she's wrong again?
Speaker 2: And we cut to Barbara and he's like, what do
Speaker 2: you mean she won't testify and Finn goes, yeah, she's
Speaker 2: not sure anymore. What do you want? And he goes,
Speaker 2: what the fuck did you say? They're just fighting. This
Speaker 2: is a really heated episode with the inner office politics.
Speaker 3: I would say, I.
Speaker 1: Don't think there was a fun drink at the dark
Speaker 1: Mahogany bar after this, you know.
Speaker 3: No trips to the cop bar here.
Speaker 2: And we had a Ada at our Denver Live show
Speaker 2: and not an Ada, A detective and I asked him
Speaker 2: like Ada's and detectives like, are they friends? And he goes,
Speaker 2: they're a team because here they're always fighting and I
Speaker 2: need more evidence.
Speaker 1: Go fuck yourself. But they do love each other. I
Speaker 1: mean they do, but there's some love there is.
Speaker 2: But I did like hearing the real detective shout out
Speaker 2: to you being like, oh, we're a team.
Speaker 3: I mean he looked.
Speaker 2: I feel like he glowed when he said, like how
Speaker 2: much he loves his lawyers that he works with. Yeah,
Speaker 2: Benson does defend fit though, and you know, like he
Speaker 2: was trying to help. And Barbara goes, whatever she has
Speaker 2: to testify, I don't give a shit, and if she's
Speaker 2: a hostile witness, I don't care. We're getting justice with
Speaker 2: or without her cooperation. And she's on the stand going,
Speaker 2: I don't want to do this your honor, And Barbara
Speaker 2: go's permission to treat this witness's hostile please, And the
Speaker 2: judge is like, miss Harper, you must answer the questions,
Speaker 2: and Barba goes, did you hear his voice right? She's like, well,
Speaker 2: I'm not sure now, but you were sure. But she says,
Speaker 2: I don't think Sean would kill Ashley. He cared for her,
Speaker 2: and his whole life was ahead of him. And Barbara
Speaker 2: keeps nailing her, like you heard his voice, you heard
Speaker 2: his voice, and she goes yes, but and her tan
Speaker 2: is really cute too, Like I do wonder if she
Speaker 2: was in the Bahamas before this taping or like she
Speaker 2: has a good Colt persen a like makeup choice, but
Speaker 2: she does have a tan like that she was just
Speaker 2: in the Hamptons or something. She then says what I
Speaker 2: did to Sean was unforgivable. I told the jury he
Speaker 2: did it and I was wrong. And he's like, that's
Speaker 2: why you're hesitating, right, And Barbara really like spins some
Speaker 2: movie magic here, and Barbara says, you blame yourself for
Speaker 2: your daughter's death. Right, you sent this man to prison.
Speaker 2: That's where he learned to be a killer and a rapist.
Speaker 2: So if you didn't make that false, I d he
Speaker 2: would not have gone to prison and then come out
Speaker 2: and killed your daughter. And if he called her, then
Speaker 2: you killed her. And it's too painful to accept, and
Speaker 2: that's why you don't want to testify. And she starts
Speaker 2: crying on the stand. She said, you know I sent
Speaker 2: him there, and every time he was beaten or raped
Speaker 2: it's my fault and I turned him into a monster
Speaker 2: and it was my fault. I'm the guilty one here,
Speaker 2: and Barbwa goes for you to feel this guilty. You
Speaker 2: obviously think he killed your daughter, which means you're certain
Speaker 2: you heard his voice around midnight?
Speaker 3: Correct?
Speaker 2: And she says yes with tears in her face. Buchanan
Speaker 2: looks defeated. Sean looks like he feels something, but I
Speaker 2: can't put a name on it, Like do you did
Speaker 2: you identify a feeling?
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Barbara and Benson are in the hallway and Buchanan comes
Speaker 2: up to them and says, I'm ready to discuss the
Speaker 2: plea and Barbara goes too late, bitch, and he says, well,
Speaker 2: plead guilty to manslaughter. Barbara does not like that because
Speaker 2: that's only five years for like a brutal rape and murder.
Speaker 2: But you know he already's spent sixteen, so sixteen and
Speaker 2: five is twenty one.
Speaker 3: But can you serve backwards time?
Speaker 2: Like I don't really know if I have an opinion
Speaker 2: on this, Like I see both of their points of view.
Speaker 2: Barba says, if you murder too, you serve a minimum
Speaker 2: of fifteen and Buchanan says done. So I guess that
Speaker 2: little game that Barbara played really made an impact that
Speaker 2: Buchanan is down to make a fifteen year deal. Benson goes,
Speaker 2: but we need him to allocute and let everyone know
Speaker 2: we got it right this time. So now it's time
Speaker 2: for the plea and allocution and Melanie, you know, he says, Melanie,
Speaker 2: I'm so so sorry. I know how much you loved Ashley,
Speaker 2: but I cared for her too. She gave me hope
Speaker 2: I can start over, and she wasn't afraid to be
Speaker 2: alone with me and didn't look at me like I
Speaker 2: was dirt like everyone else. So then I proved her wrong,
Speaker 2: Like what the fuck is wrong with you? I mean,
Speaker 2: we know what's wrong with him. Okay, so he says,
Speaker 2: but that night, I was drunk and I wasn't used
Speaker 2: to that, and I went to talk to her and
Speaker 2: to say I was sorry for how I acted at
Speaker 2: dinner and told her how much you know, I liked her,
Speaker 2: and she laughed. And you know, we know this. You
Speaker 2: can't laugh at a man. You might be murdered. So yeah,
Speaker 2: laugh at a man, he will burn you to death.
Speaker 1: So Melanie's there's like a phrase that's like men are
Speaker 1: scared that women will laugh at them.
Speaker 3: Women are scared that men will kill them.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's exactly it. Yeah, that's the saying. That's it. Yeah,
Speaker 2: that's like on first dates, like men's fears or that.
Speaker 2: But Melanie's crying and he said, you can't let people
Speaker 2: laugh at you. I learned that in prison, and that
Speaker 2: I understand because I like watching youtubes of women who've
Speaker 2: been to prison, and they do like little videos like
Speaker 2: how we're just the New Black isn't like real prison,
Speaker 2: or like top ten rules you must follow. And one
Speaker 2: of them said, like, I think I talked about this
Speaker 2: on the podcast, but like if someone budges you in line,
Speaker 2: it might seem chill, but like you need to fucking
Speaker 2: stand your ground and teach them a lesson because all
Speaker 2: jail is his lines. And so once people know they
Speaker 2: could cut you in line, they're gonna keep.
Speaker 3: Cutting you in line.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And so I understand what he's saying that in prison,
Speaker 2: like if someone laughs to you, you need to show
Speaker 2: him whose boss?
Speaker 3: And so I get where that comes from. Yeah, but
Speaker 3: his version of showing whose boss was over the top. Yeah.
Speaker 2: I'm not defending Sean, I'm just talking about yeah, the programs, Yeah,
Speaker 2: in jail and being drunk without drink. I mean, it's
Speaker 2: just fuck you though, But like he should have confessed immediately,
Speaker 2: like to put Melanie through it, like you are a
Speaker 2: monster and you do deserve to be in jail or not.
Speaker 1: This is a lot And it's like what I always
Speaker 1: say about, like where did you learn the acting skills
Speaker 1: in jail?
Speaker 3: Like he was like, you know, I feel like you'd
Speaker 3: be like it wasn't me, It wasn't me. But these
Speaker 3: guys are.
Speaker 1: Like what it wasn't like I gotta go call Melanie,
Speaker 1: like you were like putting on this full act that
Speaker 1: you're like this dear family friend instead of just being
Speaker 1: like now, you guys got the wrong guy.
Speaker 2: Like I don't know.
Speaker 3: It's just funny where they learn the acting skills?
Speaker 2: Yeah, like maybe Sean Williams Scott not Sean Williams, Scott
Speaker 2: Scott Winter Peters. What the fuck is our guest's name,
Speaker 2: Scott william Winter William Winters. Yeah, maybe he went over
Speaker 2: there to teach an acting class. So that is very
Speaker 2: inside for only people that have SI. I can't I
Speaker 2: can't even talk about that reference. He goes things happened
Speaker 2: to me, and I swore I wouldn't do it to others,
Speaker 2: but I did it to Ashley, and I didn't want to.
Speaker 2: It just happened. And Melanie runs out of the courtroom.
Speaker 2: Benson follows her. Buchanan has the wet eyes. Did you
Speaker 2: notice Buchanan had like tears in his eyes?
Speaker 4: Oh?
Speaker 2: No, and anger, but I've never seen it before, but
Speaker 2: he had like weld up waiting tears in his eyes.
Speaker 3: Will yeah.
Speaker 2: I actually I rerounded it a few times because I'd
Speaker 2: never seen him with that much emotion in terms of crying.
Speaker 2: We've seen him be a dick to rape victims. Benson
Speaker 2: stops Melanie outside. I'm sorry, she says, and she says,
Speaker 2: I know, and at least I know he did it
Speaker 2: this time. And Benson says, it's not your fault. And
Speaker 2: she says, then whose is it? And she walks down
Speaker 2: the stairs and her life's gonna be bad for talking trauma.
Speaker 2: She might have it now, joins Olivia. He's wearing sunglasses,
Speaker 2: he says, bad guy goes down. That's all that matters.
Speaker 2: And it's like, okay, go home and play video games.
Speaker 2: You're doing the shit out of me today, and Benson says,
Speaker 2: if you ever feel like talking, and he says talking's overrated.
Speaker 2: Barbara then walks into replace Finn and says justice sure
Speaker 2: isn't pretty some days, and Benson says, well, sure as
Speaker 2: hell was ugly this time, and that's dick wolf baby. Yeah, yikers,
Speaker 2: I do love a Benson Barba ending yeah on the
Speaker 2: court steps. That's not the first time, and episodes ended
Speaker 2: that way won't be the last. Okay, take us through
Speaker 2: this giant crime because I know it was like this
Speaker 2: was like the Jinks and Making a Murderer kind of
Speaker 2: were like the big I think crime docuseries that created
Speaker 2: this snowball effect in populiarity and growing, and I avoided
Speaker 2: it for some reason, like the plague.
Speaker 3: So I know nothing. Can't wait, can't wait, We'll be
Speaker 3: right back.
Speaker 1: After a word from our sponsors, we are back and
Speaker 1: we are diving into this massive true crime. This episode
Speaker 1: aired in September of twenty sixteen, which is about nine
Speaker 1: months after Making a Murderer a docuseries premiered on Netflix
Speaker 1: and took the world by storm. I mean I was obsessed.
Speaker 1: I watched the whole thing through and then I remember
Speaker 1: I took Jared home to my house for Christmas, and
Speaker 1: let's see, we were already married, but we went home
Speaker 1: for Christmas that year and we just watched it again
Speaker 1: and he was like, you guys are absolutely ill, like
Speaker 1: what is going on? Like he could not believe that
Speaker 1: my family just sat around on Christmas and rewatched like
Speaker 1: a killer documentary.
Speaker 3: And you know, we just that's what we enjoy.
Speaker 1: My sister and I have also famously listened to serial
Speaker 1: podcast twice through on road trips together, like we just
Speaker 1: love murder as a family. So this docu series was
Speaker 1: filmed over the course of ten years. It's very like
Speaker 1: they were very embedded with these people. Yes, and I'm
Speaker 1: just really excited to be able to share with you
Speaker 1: because I don't think you know anything about it, right.
Speaker 3: No, Yeah, Okay.
Speaker 1: So the story starts in nineteen eighty five in Wisconsin.
Speaker 1: Penny Pearnsten was jogging along Lake Michigan and was attacked.
Speaker 1: She was dragged into the woods and sexually assaulted. She
Speaker 1: identified Stephen Avery, a Wisconsin man aged twenty two, as
Speaker 1: her attacker in a lineup and from a photo, even
Speaker 1: though he had an alibi and a timestamped receipt and
Speaker 1: sixty nine witnesses that put him miles away from this assault.
Speaker 1: So he gets convicted and he goes to jail much
Speaker 1: like in the episode for you know, raping this woman,
Speaker 1: and he was in jail for eighteen years, and even
Speaker 1: in nineteen ninety five. This like makes me very annoyed
Speaker 1: at life, you know, the legal system, you know, in
Speaker 1: just the way this went down, like in nineteen ninety five.
Speaker 1: So ten years into his sentence, a detective in another
Speaker 1: county said that an inmate was talking about how he
Speaker 1: had committed a crime in Manitouwac County, which is where
Speaker 1: this took place, and that someone else was in jail
Speaker 1: for the crime, and he got in touch with Manitauc sheriff,
Speaker 1: a sheriff deputy I think named Thomas Kokoric and who
Speaker 1: told them, quote, we already have the right guy, don't
Speaker 1: concern yourself with it. And then he served eighteen years
Speaker 1: in prison, and the Innocence Project of Wisconsin helped to
Speaker 1: clear his name, and sure enough, DNA evidence completely exonerated
Speaker 1: him and pointed to another man whose name was Gregory Allen,
Speaker 1: who looked pretty much exactly like Stephen and had a
Speaker 1: history of assaults against women. The cops had an eye
Speaker 1: on him, and yet they never showed a picture of
Speaker 1: this man to the victim. They never put this man
Speaker 1: into a lineup the way that Stephen was.
Speaker 3: And was this the.
Speaker 2: Man Gregory Allen in jail in Manatoc and he was
Speaker 2: in a different county, But I think so, I think so. Yes,
Speaker 2: this article did not make it clear because I asked
Speaker 2: myself the same question, But I'm pretty sure, yes, so
Speaker 2: is this guy Gregory Allen, who Yes, he had been
Speaker 2: incarcerated for other crimes against women, like he was known
Speaker 2: as like a predator, and so yeah, he went to
Speaker 2: jail in nineteen eighty five, and he got released in
Speaker 2: two thousand and three. And of course, much like in
Speaker 2: the episode of SVU, he promptly filed a civil suit
Speaker 2: against Manituac County for thirty six million dollars for his
Speaker 2: wrongful conviction. And you know, the Avery family, I wouldn't
Speaker 2: say was beloved. They were kind of they're sort of
Speaker 2: like rural people, not very educated. They a lot of
Speaker 2: them got in trouble with the law, like Steven had
Speaker 2: already been in trouble for burglarizing a bar and other things.
Speaker 1: They the law enforcement in the town seemed to like
Speaker 1: have it out for the family. Steven, I'm going to
Speaker 1: give a trigger warning right now for our cat lovers
Speaker 1: out there. You're gonna want to do a flast forward
Speaker 1: thirty seconds maybe a minute on this one.
Speaker 2: And Lisa is gonna jet from this taping. Yeah, she's
Speaker 2: not sticking around.
Speaker 1: He did get a convicted of animal cruelty for dousing
Speaker 1: a cat and gasoline and throwing it into a bonfire
Speaker 1: and just like watching it burn. So he you know,
Speaker 1: it's he had some criminal tendencies of cruelty and he
Speaker 1: also tried to run a sheriff's wife off the road
Speaker 1: in his car. His older brother was charged and later
Speaker 1: acquitted for sexual assault, but also for domestic violence against
Speaker 1: his wife, and later was charged with sexual assault of
Speaker 1: a child, but pleaded no contest to fourth degree sexual
Speaker 1: assault and battery and spent only forty five days in
Speaker 1: jail and three years on probation for that charge. I
Speaker 1: don't there's not more information on this, but the family
Speaker 1: is not great. Yeah, oh so, I'm sorry. The older
Speaker 1: brother was the sexual assault case that was acquitted. The
Speaker 1: younger brother was the or the other charges. I said,
Speaker 1: so both of his brothers have all these issues and
Speaker 1: so as they illustrate in this episode, it was very
Speaker 1: hard for Steven when he got out of prison. He
Speaker 1: was depressed, he was frustrated, he got into he was
Speaker 1: getting in a lot of fights with his family over
Speaker 1: the family business. They had a salvage yard, like an
Speaker 1: auto salvage yard.
Speaker 2: See I knew nothing about it, but I did sense
Speaker 2: salvage yard vibes.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, And like I think that's kind
Speaker 1: of like part of what people sort of liked gawking
Speaker 1: at in the documentary series was like, oh yeah, these
Speaker 1: like yocal kind of Wisconsin people that have like really
Speaker 1: thick accents and like have a salvage yard. You know,
Speaker 1: it's like they're just regular people. But you know, I
Speaker 1: think that was a lot of making fun of the accents,
Speaker 1: making fun of the like you know, rural ness of
Speaker 1: it was part of the I feel like the virality
Speaker 1: of that docuseries. So anyway, yeah, his life was frustrating
Speaker 1: when he got out of prison. He had was fighting
Speaker 1: with his family over the business. He got divorced, his
Speaker 1: relationship with his kids basically disappeared. But his family did
Speaker 1: say that you know, a couple of years later, things
Speaker 1: were turning around for him. He had a new girlfriend
Speaker 1: named Jody Stakowski. That's like another thing I remember from
Speaker 1: the like from the show. He'd be like, Jody, I'm
Speaker 1: gonna buy you a jet ski, like you know, people
Speaker 1: would like quote the quote making a murderer like. And
Speaker 1: they were planning a wedding, apparently, him and his girlfriend.
Speaker 1: And he was working full time at the salvage yard,
Speaker 1: and he'd gotten twenty five grand from the Wisconsin Claims
Speaker 1: Board and there was apparently maybe more coming.
Speaker 3: And then he had these two power.
Speaker 1: Lawyers from Milwaukee, Stephen Glynn and Walter Kelly, who were
Speaker 1: representing him in his thirty six million dollar wrong full
Speaker 1: conviction suit. So he had, you know, big plans, like
Speaker 1: his dad said, I read this really good article about
Speaker 1: this that'll be in our show notes in Milwaukee magazine.
Speaker 3: And Steven the dad said.
Speaker 1: Steven's dad said, Stevie had everything going for him, everything,
Speaker 1: and he was happy. So that's like the state of
Speaker 1: mind in two thousand and five. Okay, Then Halloween of
Speaker 1: two thousand and five, Teresa Hallback a young woman.
Speaker 3: She's twenty five years old. She's a photographer.
Speaker 1: She works and takes photographs for Auto Trader magazine, So
Speaker 1: when people are going to sell their cars in this magazine,
Speaker 1: she'll go out and take photos of the car. And
Speaker 1: she went out to the Avery family salvage yard to
Speaker 1: take photos of a mini van that Stephen was selling
Speaker 1: for his sister. And Stephen is the one that made
Speaker 1: the appointment, even though it was the sister's car. And
Speaker 1: he apparently called Teresa Halbach's sell a couple of times,
Speaker 1: and in or maybe three times, and in like two
Speaker 1: of the times he did that thing where you call
Speaker 1: your you hide your number? Is that star six to six?
Speaker 1: Star sixty nine? Oh, that's how you find out? Star
Speaker 1: sixty nine is how you call back?
Speaker 3: Right? Star six six is how you like mask your.
Speaker 2: NOTT sixty six. It's got to be six seven. And
Speaker 2: it's just too close to the devil. I can't imagine
Speaker 2: like phone companies choosing sixty six. Yeah, at sixty seven,
Speaker 2: there's no air country on a leash start sixty seven. Yea,
Speaker 2: it is Star sixty seven. I'm a double worshiper.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's why I was. I'm sorry.
Speaker 1: I am in the midst of a satanic panic, and
Speaker 1: I apologize.
Speaker 2: Yes, I think that Rosie is in Montessori, but she's
Speaker 2: actually and she's an.
Speaker 3: Over switch school that I put her into.
Speaker 2: Have you seen that clip of that little girl where
Speaker 2: they're like, you're gonna change the world and she goes, no,
Speaker 2: I'm gonna I'm evil. I'm gonna turn everyone into a witch.
Speaker 2: Have you seen that kid? Oh, it's cute, And then
Speaker 2: the end she goes, I'm just kidding, but people send
Speaker 2: it to me, going she reminds me of you, But
Speaker 2: it's a really funny kid. That's really cute.
Speaker 1: Okay, I'm gonna try to find that last time I
Speaker 1: see it, I'll send it over to poured it over.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: But so he called her a couple of times on
Speaker 1: her cell and was hiding his number, like that's kind
Speaker 1: of sketchy, and he apparently when he called auto Trader,
Speaker 1: he was like, send the girl you sent last time
Speaker 1: or something. So it's like he was specifically requesting her.
Speaker 1: And so what happens next This is an account from witnesses,
Speaker 1: but including his nephew Brendan Dacy. Okay, so apparently what
Speaker 1: happens is she shows up knocks on the door of
Speaker 1: Stephen Avery's house. No One answers, and so she goes
Speaker 1: around to the back of the trailer where she's out
Speaker 1: of you from other people. He opens the door and
Speaker 1: he's wearing a towel. He must have told people that,
Speaker 1: because I don't know how anyone else would.
Speaker 3: Have known that.
Speaker 1: And somehow she enters Stephen Avery's home and nobody knows
Speaker 1: whether it was on her own accord or not.
Speaker 3: Okay.
Speaker 1: Brendan Dacy, Steven's sixteen year old nephew shows up from school,
Speaker 1: checks the mail and there's a letter in the mail
Speaker 1: for his uncle. So he goes to bring it to
Speaker 1: his uncle's trailer and apparently he's here. Screams as he's
Speaker 1: approaching the trailer, and according to Brendan, when uncle comes
Speaker 1: to the door, he is sweaty from like, you know,
Speaker 1: he says, like having sex with some woman or something,
Speaker 1: and he asks, do you want to come in and
Speaker 1: take a turn, And when he walks in, Brendan reports
Speaker 1: that Teresa is shackled to the bed, naked, face up,
Speaker 1: spread eagle and begging him like don't do this, don't
Speaker 1: do this, please, you know, begging for her life. And
Speaker 1: he said he raped her while his uncle watched. He
Speaker 1: then said that they went and watched TV for a
Speaker 1: few minutes, and that his uncle then explained that they
Speaker 1: were going to kill her, and then they went into
Speaker 1: the room. Steven stabbed her, then told Brendan to cut
Speaker 1: her neck. He did it, and then Steven told him
Speaker 1: cut her hair, so he did that, and then Avery
Speaker 1: choked Teresa for a couple of minutes, and then they
Speaker 1: untied her body from the bed, tied her up with rope,
Speaker 1: and carried her to the garage. At this point, she
Speaker 1: is dead and they fucked up. It's super fucked up.
Speaker 1: But wait for it. So then they placed the body
Speaker 1: in the trunk of the car, and then Avery tells
Speaker 1: Dacy that he was planning to dump the body in
Speaker 1: a pond that's by the salvage yard, but the pond
Speaker 1: was dry, so he decides, okay, just burn her in
Speaker 1: the fire pit that's behind our garage. And there was
Speaker 1: already like a fire going in it, so before they
Speaker 1: carried her there, apparently, according to Brendan, Avery put her
Speaker 1: on the garage floor and walked to his house, got
Speaker 1: a semi automatic rifle and then fired.
Speaker 2: Ten rounds into her body. What the fuck?
Speaker 1: Yes, Then, with Dassy in the park passenger seat. He said,
Speaker 1: Avery drove the rab for to the far side of
Speaker 1: the salvage yard, passing the car crush her. He could
Speaker 1: have just crushed the car, but he just drove it
Speaker 1: past and said, I'm gonna crush this car. Later then,
Speaker 1: Avery walked back to the trailer and apparently stashed the
Speaker 1: Toyota ignition key in a drawer, and then took all
Speaker 1: the sheets off the bed and put them on the
Speaker 1: fire pit. And Brendan reported that while he was helping
Speaker 1: his uncle wipe down the garage floor, he did get
Speaker 1: bleach on his blue jeans and it turned the fabric white,
Speaker 1: and his mom later confirmed that he had stained his
Speaker 1: parts while helping his uncle clean the garage around Halloween.
Speaker 2: This motherfucker better be in prison. We'll hold on a nephew,
Speaker 2: so fucking hang like, let's bring back a hanging public.
Speaker 3: Well this is what this is, what's like.
Speaker 1: I'm sure people that watch making a murder are like,
Speaker 1: we'se a weight because like there's more. So a few
Speaker 1: days later, obviously Teresa's family reports are missing.
Speaker 2: It's like, wait that there's more, like infomercial like in
Speaker 2: drag Race, but sadder.
Speaker 1: So a couple days after she goes missing. She's very beloved,
Speaker 1: like she has a close knit family. Her family's like
Speaker 1: looking for her desperately. All the people in the community
Speaker 1: are looking for her for this like nice young girl.
Speaker 1: And so there's a search party and they're checking the
Speaker 1: Avery salvage yard because like, you know, there's proof that
Speaker 1: she was headed there, like this was like you know,
Speaker 1: And so the search party goes to search the salvage yard,
Speaker 1: and honestly, Stephen's brother said, yeah, go ahead, search the
Speaker 1: salvage yard. And they find her rav four with the
Speaker 1: license plates removed, underneath a bunch of like brush, and
Speaker 1: they've got like some you know, car hoods and auto
Speaker 1: parts kind of like covering it so it looks like
Speaker 1: it's trying to be hidden. So then later they find
Speaker 1: her crumpled license plates in a scrapped car down the
Speaker 1: road from Avery's trailer. They did find some spent rifle
Speaker 1: casings in his garage and a pair of handcuffs and
Speaker 1: leg irons in his house and in his bathroom. Apparently
Speaker 1: on the surface of the vanity there were some dried
Speaker 1: blood spots.
Speaker 3: So then the manuch Wak they have been relieved.
Speaker 1: Of the case because it is a conflict of interest
Speaker 1: because of this lawsuit, and so like another not another county,
Speaker 1: but another sheriff's department is covering it, but they're using
Speaker 1: Manitowoc deputies to help them. So a Manitowac deputy finds
Speaker 1: the key to Hauliback's rav four, which by the way,
Speaker 1: is the car I drive. And when my family found
Speaker 1: out that I got a row for they were like,
Speaker 1: oh my god, what are you? Teresa hallback like that.
Speaker 1: You know, it was like a lot of I was
Speaker 1: getting a lot of flack for it. But they look
Speaker 1: very different than they did in two thousand and five. Anyway,
Speaker 1: he finds a key to her car. It just like
Speaker 1: falls out of a book. And in the documentary they
Speaker 1: heavily implied that this key could have been planted because
Speaker 1: this is like a sheriff from the town that is
Speaker 1: under the lawsuit that has targeted this family for years.
Speaker 1: And anyway, so in a six by six foot fire
Speaker 1: pit behind the Avery's garage, they did find human tissue
Speaker 1: teeth and bones that was crushed and charred. And then
Speaker 1: in a barrel used to burn trash, they did find
Speaker 1: a cell phone and a camera and eventually Avery's blood
Speaker 1: was found on Teresa's car, and DNA from his sweat
Speaker 1: was found on the key that they found, so DNA
Speaker 1: exonerated him and then puts him back in prison. So
Speaker 1: eleven days after Teresa's gone missing, Avery is charged arrested
Speaker 1: in charge with murder, kidnapping, sexual assault.
Speaker 3: And mutilation of a corpse.
Speaker 2: What about the nephew, hold on, it's coming, Okay, I'm sorry.
Speaker 3: It's okay.
Speaker 1: He immediately begins claiming that this is a frame job
Speaker 1: from Manitoua County to avoid paying his civil suit. And
Speaker 1: if you do look at it, it is kind of like,
Speaker 1: why would this man do this? He had he stood
Speaker 1: to gain all this money, he's been out for two years.
Speaker 1: Here's the other thing. When they go and they search
Speaker 1: the bedroom, this bedroom where apparently this bloody, violent murder
Speaker 1: and rape happened, there's no blood.
Speaker 3: There's no blood anywhere.
Speaker 1: There's no blood in the garage where apparently he shot
Speaker 1: her ten times with and I know he had bleach,
Speaker 1: but like I just if you see this man, you're like,
Speaker 1: this is not a criminal mastermind, this is not someone
Speaker 1: It's like what you were saying about Scott Peterson, Like
Speaker 1: there's just no way that so little evidence would be
Speaker 1: found like DNA or blood if this is where the
Speaker 1: murder happened. So a lot of people don't think the
Speaker 1: murder happened in the trailer because and I'll get to it.
Speaker 1: So he immediately starts claiming it's a frame job. His
Speaker 1: lawyers argued that a sample of his blood that had
Speaker 1: been taken a decade earlier in his appeals process for
Speaker 1: the rape had been tampered with. There was a puncture
Speaker 1: hole in it, so like a manage walk deputy very
Speaker 1: well could have taken a smear of blood put it
Speaker 1: on Teresa Hallback's car. It was a small, small amount
Speaker 1: of blood of his that they found. So the documentary
Speaker 1: really does toy with you, like they have people talking
Speaker 1: about how Steven used to, like, yeah, torture cats even
Speaker 1: like before his rape wrongful rape conviction. But then the
Speaker 1: doc also like very much demonizes the prosecutor ken Kratz
Speaker 1: and the whole law enforcement in the area, like ken
Speaker 1: Kratz was like fully clowned from this documentary, Like he
Speaker 1: has like a dog named Cheddar. My brother used to
Speaker 1: like send us photos of ken Kratz and his dog
Speaker 1: named Cheddar like, I don't know, it's just he When
Speaker 1: you see the guy, he's very whiny, like the only
Speaker 1: he tunks in the documentary, and it's like you just
Speaker 1: hate Ken Kratz, even if he's doing the right thing.
Speaker 1: You just hate him when you're watching it and you
Speaker 1: just don't know. You're like, this could be a frame.
Speaker 1: Who knows. And I used to think when I watched it,
Speaker 1: I was like, this man is innocent. But I thought
Speaker 1: that about Adnan, sayed, I'm very like, I don't know.
Speaker 1: I guess I'm a glasses half full when it comes
Speaker 1: to like an accused person. I'm when I think that
Speaker 1: there might be wrongfully accused, I'm like, no, they didn't
Speaker 1: do it. I'm very susceptible to this kind of documentarianism
Speaker 1: and journalism. So after this aired, Stephen be starting to
Speaker 1: become represented by Kathleen Zelner, who is a very hot
Speaker 1: shot Chicago lawyer who does a lot of these wrong
Speaker 1: folk conventions and stuff like that. She's featured a little
Speaker 1: bit at the end of Making a Murder season one,
Speaker 1: and she's like the main character of season two, and
Speaker 1: she's just this very funny, like rich woman, like rich
Speaker 1: looking lawyer woman who like talks about it, and she's
Speaker 1: still filing appeals for Avery today. In two thousand and six,
Speaker 1: he ended up settling for his wrong full rape conviction
Speaker 1: for four hundred K, which was supposed to be thirty
Speaker 1: six million. And the Innocence Project has exonerated one hundred
Speaker 1: and seventy four people, and as of two thousand and six,
Speaker 1: Stephen Avery was the only one to be charged with
Speaker 1: a violent crime after release. So here's one of the
Speaker 1: most controversial things in the document, and that is the
Speaker 1: role that Avery's nephew, Brendan Dassy may Or may not
Speaker 1: have played in this crime. So, first of all, Brendan
Speaker 1: was Steven's alibi at first. So when they bring him in,
Speaker 1: he's sixteen. He has an extremely low IQ. So this
Speaker 1: is I believe where they're getting some of the Charlie
Speaker 1: hornsby what's the guy's name, Charlie whatever, the guy in
Speaker 1: the episode that wants to fuck Rollins like that. The
Speaker 1: guy we were saying he might have some kind of disorder.
Speaker 1: I think he just has a very low IQ. So
Speaker 1: he was in special ed classes and they brought this
Speaker 1: kid in. They interrogated him multiple times, hours at a time,
Speaker 1: no parent, no counsel present. Okay, this is a kid
Speaker 1: that just wants to get out of there. They keep
Speaker 1: telling him, if you just tell us what happened, you
Speaker 1: can go back to school. You know, they're doing all
Speaker 1: these tactics that are approved for questioning adults, but not
Speaker 1: for questioning like sixteen year old, like kids with low IQs.
Speaker 3: You know, it's like it doesn't feel.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, but I don't care what you're a Q is.
Speaker 2: If you fucking raped this person and did any like,
Speaker 2: I don't give a fuck.
Speaker 1: He later said that he made it all up and
Speaker 1: it was from a book that he read, and a
Speaker 1: lot of people have written, and there's there's sources to
Speaker 1: this in our show notes. A lot of people think
Speaker 1: that he is retelling the plot of James Patterson's book
Speaker 1: Kiss the Girls.
Speaker 3: Have you seen that movie or read that book? I
Speaker 3: like that you asked for the movie first.
Speaker 2: That was a shade, But I have read the book
Speaker 2: and I was a big James Patterson head.
Speaker 1: And that's why I added the book because I knew
Speaker 1: that you like James Patta. And here's the thing a
Speaker 1: lot of people did like all this comparison, where they
Speaker 1: at first they he said he read it in a book.
Speaker 1: But what they really think is that he watched the
Speaker 1: movie of Kiss the Girls, because a lot of the
Speaker 1: stuff that that he said happened is in Kiss the
Speaker 1: Girls and is in the movie and not in the book.
Speaker 1: And so yeah, he later completely recanted his confession, said
Speaker 1: he was making all this stuff up. There is not
Speaker 1: a lot of evidence of Teresa's assault happening in the trailer,
Speaker 1: like I said, like there being no blood on this
Speaker 1: bed where you said that you cut her throat open,
Speaker 1: he stabbed her in the stomach.
Speaker 3: There's no blood, Okay, like.
Speaker 2: Sure, but but what about the teeth and the things,
Speaker 2: and the woman is dead. She's dead, she was killed there.
Speaker 1: But I think there there is a lot of reasonable
Speaker 1: doubt where some people think, okay, let me just okay
Speaker 1: go back, Yeah, let me just go back because okay,
Speaker 1: so just to finish off the Brendan part, so the
Speaker 1: cops all told him he could just go home, So
Speaker 1: he just made up a bunch of shits so he
Speaker 1: could get the fuck out of there.
Speaker 3: And you can tell in.
Speaker 1: His confession tapes, which are in the dock, that he
Speaker 1: has no idea what he's talking about, and that, like,
Speaker 1: so then there's this whole kiss the girl's connection. He
Speaker 1: later completely recanted his confession. His initial lawyer was a
Speaker 1: guy named Len Kachinski, who is also villainized in the
Speaker 1: in the Dock and is not a good lawyer. He
Speaker 1: came on after the confession and he's like, there's no
Speaker 1: way a jury's going to acquit this kid, even though
Speaker 1: there was zero DNA tying him to the murder.
Speaker 2: His DNA was nowhere.
Speaker 3: So you're telling me this kid rape the girl, slid
Speaker 3: her throat.
Speaker 1: Did all this no DNA of this kid, No, because
Speaker 1: a lot of this part of it did not happen,
Speaker 1: in my opinion, and this was one of Wisconsin's biggest
Speaker 1: criminal investigations ever. Like people said that when the salvage yard,
Speaker 1: when the car was found, the whole salvage yard became
Speaker 1: like a full CSI episode, like no one in or out,
Speaker 1: Like they've set up a full, like freestanding building to
Speaker 1: examine her car in so they wouldn't have to move
Speaker 1: it very far. Like there was DNA taken from every
Speaker 1: fucking service, nothing tying DASSI to this assault or this murder.
Speaker 1: So when Kacinski couldn't get the confession thrown out. He
Speaker 1: basically told Dacy to get a plea deal. He's like,
Speaker 1: do a plea deal. And so a lot of people
Speaker 1: think that he had ineffective counsel and that he should
Speaker 1: not be in jail because of this coerse confession and
Speaker 1: ineffective council and all this stuff. He set up another
Speaker 1: meeting with Dascy in the authorities, and then he didn't
Speaker 1: show up the lawyer he was like away serving in
Speaker 1: the army reserve or something, and so a judge removed
Speaker 1: him from the case. And now Dassy is represented by
Speaker 1: Stephen Drisden and Laura and Nyrider, who are professors at
Speaker 1: Northwestern's Center of Wrongful Convictions of Youth, and they are
Speaker 1: experts in the false confessions from juveniles. And in twenty sixteen,
Speaker 1: no I believe it was in twenty seventeen, a judge
Speaker 1: actually ruled that his confession was coerced, and then like
Speaker 1: another appellate judge or circuit court said no, it was fine.
Speaker 2: So there was a huge.
Speaker 1: Day where all of us were like Brendan Dacy's getting
Speaker 1: out of jail because a lot of people think Stephen
Speaker 1: Avery is involved in this murder.
Speaker 3: Probably me too, but a lot.
Speaker 1: But there is kind of no evidence that it happened
Speaker 1: the way Brendan said, or that Brendan had anything to
Speaker 1: do with it, Like he just like no one thinks
Speaker 1: he has the capacity to like really, oh well.
Speaker 3: His uncle threatened him.
Speaker 1: He was just like it's still like there's just not
Speaker 1: there's just not the evidence that Brendan had anything to
Speaker 1: do with it besides this wild confession. And so he's
Speaker 1: still in jail and still filing for appeal and still
Speaker 1: filing for parole.
Speaker 2: And as Stephen Avery's still filing like appeals too, or
Speaker 2: he's just so.
Speaker 1: Stephen Avery is still Kathleen Zelner is still on it.
Speaker 3: She's still doing appeals for him.
Speaker 1: The last article I saw was from the end of
Speaker 1: twenty twenty one, and they're trying to get you know,
Speaker 1: new habeas corpus. So here's here's the thing I found out.
Speaker 1: There's a theory in the doc When you watch the
Speaker 1: doc Brendan Dacy has a brother named Bobby Dassy and
Speaker 1: a stepfather named Scott Taddick, and I believe in the
Speaker 1: documentary they say that they were both home at the
Speaker 1: state at the time of you know, Teresa's arrival at
Speaker 1: the home and disappearance, and there was like some people
Speaker 1: saying that, oh, a witness saw them driving way in
Speaker 1: Teresa's car and then saw it circle back, like all
Speaker 1: this stuff that the cops really didn't pay attention to
Speaker 1: because they were like, no, it's Steven and Steven, it's Stephen.
Speaker 1: So there's this possibility that people think that this father
Speaker 1: and son did it, that they took her somewhere else
Speaker 1: and murdered her and then burned her in the back
Speaker 1: of the family salvage yard. And that's why there's no
Speaker 1: physical evidence of the murder anywhere on the property. So
Speaker 1: this is like what got people fucking boners up on Reddit,
Speaker 1: you know, like this is what was happening.
Speaker 3: Like I'm not even a big Reddit person.
Speaker 1: I was like on Reddit reading theories, like I was
Speaker 1: so into this, like thinking just like why would this
Speaker 1: guy fucking do this?
Speaker 3: Like he knows he's gonna get caught.
Speaker 1: This wasn't like a crime of passion where a woman
Speaker 1: yelled at him like they said in the episode. This
Speaker 1: seems thought out that he had her come out there
Speaker 1: to kill her, knowing that they have cell phone calls together.
Speaker 1: People are gonna be wondering where she is, you know
Speaker 1: what I mean, It just like doesn't all hold together.
Speaker 2: So did anyone ever investigate this dad's son duo? I
Speaker 2: don't think so.
Speaker 1: I don't think it was like they I think they
Speaker 1: were each other's alibis and it was like it just
Speaker 1: wasn't a thing. And I don't know if the witnesses
Speaker 1: were credible. But now they're saying that there's a potential
Speaker 1: new witness who was not evaluated at this most recent
Speaker 1: appeal process, but could still be presented later in another
Speaker 1: court hearing. And this witness is a delivery driver named
Speaker 1: Thomas Sewinski, who claims to have seen quote a shirtless
Speaker 1: Bobby Dassy and an quote unidentified older male pushing a
Speaker 1: Toyota rav for down Avery Road towards the junkyard in
Speaker 1: the early morning hours of November fifth, according to court
Speaker 1: documents filed by Zelner in April.
Speaker 2: But did Steven say that he opened the door and
Speaker 2: let her in? Like, was that ever confirmed? I don't know,
Speaker 2: Like the towel. So there's a lot of circumstantial evidence.
Speaker 2: It's just hard to say, Like, you know, if Stephen's innocent,
Speaker 2: maybe this was just a regular day in his life,
Speaker 2: like the way that odd Nonsayed claims it was a
Speaker 2: regular day in his life, and you know, his junior
Speaker 2: year of high school or senior of high school or whatever.
Speaker 2: So I don't know.
Speaker 1: I think this is one of the reasons why people
Speaker 1: are so obsessed with this case, because this is a
Speaker 1: guy who served all this time. Certainly, if he killed
Speaker 1: Teresa hallback, she doesn't her justice does not lie on
Speaker 1: his false conviction, Like he doesn't get like back pay
Speaker 1: for jail time, you know what I mean, Like he
Speaker 1: doesn't get to use his jail time to commit other crimes.
Speaker 3: But I don't know.
Speaker 1: It just seems like the motive seems really difficult when
Speaker 1: he was standing to earn millions of dollars. If not
Speaker 1: the whole thirty six million, he could have even a
Speaker 1: million dollars would have changed this guy's life, you know.
Speaker 1: So I just find it hard to believe that he
Speaker 1: would have just like lured a girl out to his house,
Speaker 1: killed her and thought he could get away with it.
Speaker 1: It just doesn't seem like he's smart enough for that.
Speaker 2: So I don't know for sure, But if someone has
Speaker 2: this low siq, you don't think about the future, Like
Speaker 2: I don't think your weighing out options and like what's
Speaker 2: going to happen or consequences, I don't know.
Speaker 1: But then it's like his family tries to say that
Speaker 1: he was his family's Like he was working hard, he
Speaker 1: wanted to buy a house, He was looking forward to
Speaker 1: marrying his girlfriend. Like if you're in jail for eighteen
Speaker 1: years for something you didn't do, like, wouldn't you kind
Speaker 1: of do anything to not go back there, Like I
Speaker 1: don't know, well.
Speaker 2: And that's the thing, and SV you didn't talk about this,
Speaker 2: but like my she as a listener of the podcast,
Speaker 2: so if I fuck up facts, she'll let us know.
Speaker 2: But I worked with someone and her mom dated someone
Speaker 2: that spent twenty five years in prison, and then they
Speaker 2: were living together, and like he would still sleep in
Speaker 2: his prison outfit and like sleep on the floor, curled up,
Speaker 2: and still had all these weird habits from prison, like
Speaker 2: and could not really break out of it.
Speaker 3: And they had a.
Speaker 2: Weird relationship obviously, but and he was going blind whatever
Speaker 2: hit me up, girl, if this is real or not,
Speaker 2: But that stuck with me forever. But he would like
Speaker 2: still wear his prison jumpsuit and like couldeh get.
Speaker 3: Out of that?
Speaker 2: So maybe maybe buying a house, getting married in all
Speaker 2: these real life things were too overwhelming and stressful and
Speaker 2: he wanted to be back in prison.
Speaker 1: Yeah, maybe he is still maintaining his innocence, like he's
Speaker 1: been saying from the jump, this is a frame job
Speaker 1: from the Manitua County, you know, Sheriff's department. Like why
Speaker 1: would he have kept the key to the car. Why
Speaker 1: wouldn't you have like thrown that into a field or something?
Speaker 3: You know what I mean.
Speaker 1: Like there's a lot. I guess maybe I'm thinking maybe
Speaker 1: I'm being too But so you think this uncle or
Speaker 1: like this other duo, Dad and Sun duo, Like I mean,
Speaker 1: I do think it's a little bit wild that out
Speaker 1: of nowhere this new witness comes up being like, yeah,
Speaker 1: I saw these alternate people that could easily have been
Speaker 1: involved in Like where have you been? Like where have
Speaker 1: you been? I know you're a truck drive delivery driver?
Speaker 1: Have you been on a fifteen year Like, I mean,
Speaker 1: this case happened seventeen years ago, and like we're just
Speaker 1: hearing now that you saw these people pushing the car.
Speaker 1: I don't know, but I'm just hoping that our comments
Speaker 1: section today will be popping because I am curious to
Speaker 1: know what everyone is thinking. Like, obviously there's Oukham's razor, right,
Speaker 1: Like the simplest solution is probably the right solution. Like
Speaker 1: it seems like it should just be Steve and Avery,
Speaker 1: but just seems like there's a few things that and
Speaker 1: the documentary play toys with that, you know, like there's
Speaker 1: just a few things that you're like that doesn't really
Speaker 1: add up, and like, you know, I do think that
Speaker 1: Brendan Dacy should be like allowed out of jail.
Speaker 3: I don't think he had anything to do with it,
Speaker 3: but that is the case. Well, yeah he had bad counsel.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and a judge almost over a judge overturned his
Speaker 1: confession and then another court said no, it's upheld. So
Speaker 1: it's just like I remember like getting a Twitter alert
Speaker 1: that Brendan Dascy's getting out of jail, and I was
Speaker 1: like all right, and then it just totally like didn't
Speaker 1: work out, like another judge blocked him from getting out
Speaker 1: of jail.
Speaker 2: But also it's like the more we learn about everything,
Speaker 2: like judges are just guys, just go just peeps.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's just funny.
Speaker 1: It's like to me, Okay, we're trusting this investigation with
Speaker 1: the same in the same hands essentially as handled the
Speaker 1: investigation where this man went to jail for eighteen years
Speaker 1: for no reason. I do it probably makes the most
Speaker 1: sense that he had something to do with it.
Speaker 2: But also cops foot up all the time for lots
Speaker 2: of different reasons constantly. It doesn't matter if it's Manataqua
Speaker 2: or Milwaukee or whatever fucking other city you want to
Speaker 2: point to.
Speaker 3: In Wisconsin.
Speaker 2: I'm sure they're fucking up and being lazy, like most
Speaker 2: of the cases that we cover.
Speaker 3: No, I know, I just I can kind of.
Speaker 1: I don't necessarily always buy oh, they're framing me, but
Speaker 1: I kind of almost buy it here because this this
Speaker 1: sheriff's office is of this county, hates this family, and
Speaker 1: that's what they talk about a lot in the dock.
Speaker 1: They set that up a lot. So anyway, I can't
Speaker 1: wait to see the comments section. I can't wait to
Speaker 1: hear what you guys think. I'm very on the I
Speaker 1: was a total Steven averys innocent person for like two
Speaker 1: years after this came out, and then as time went on,
Speaker 1: I was like, yeah, I probably did it, So I
Speaker 1: don't know well and.
Speaker 3: Also like it.
Speaker 2: You are right in terms of like small town politics
Speaker 2: versus like big city politics.
Speaker 3: And I know people from this town this era.
Speaker 5: You don't.
Speaker 1: Yes, I do know somebody who's from that place. And
Speaker 1: it's funny when they're like they'll just be like, yes,
Speaker 1: I'm from the Stephen Avery area, like yeah, Like.
Speaker 3: So, thank you so much. I'm going to work. Thank
Speaker 3: you for listening.
Speaker 1: I'm glad I could give you this sort of like
Speaker 1: you know, moral and we'll be judicial brands.
Speaker 2: Stood was so fucked up, and then to hear the
Speaker 2: details of how this woman was murdered makes me sick.
Speaker 1: But that might but that that is probably not how
Speaker 1: it happened. Of course, she was probably murdered in a
Speaker 1: horrible way, but I don't think that's what happened.
Speaker 3: What I described to you.
Speaker 2: I know, just the idea of all that's left of
Speaker 2: you is teeth, I know, brutal.
Speaker 1: It's like you hope that the death part was like
Speaker 1: quick and painless and that you know, then they can
Speaker 1: just you know, well, anyway I do.
Speaker 2: I want to say that we have an epic guest,
Speaker 2: one of the greatest of all time, and it was
Speaker 2: a joy and a pleasure and so that I think
Speaker 2: you'll all be.
Speaker 3: Really fucking excited. Who were about to talk to?
Speaker 2: Okay, guys, today's guest. We are so excited.
Speaker 1: I've been wanting to get this guy since the jump
Speaker 1: of this podcast. I've always wanted to have him on.
Speaker 1: You have seen him in pivotal roles on iconic dramas
Speaker 1: like The Wire and Ray Donovan, and currently you can
Speaker 1: catch him on an HBO Max original mini series called
Speaker 1: We Own This City. But you guys know him as
Speaker 1: the defense attorney that you love to hate, Mister John Buchanan.
Speaker 1: Please check out our very fun interview with Delaney Williams.
Speaker 2: I did a stand up show at the Kennedy Center
Speaker 2: a few weeks ago, and I talked to one of
Speaker 2: your former students, like I was doing a radio show.
Speaker 3: I was doing a radio or press or something I
Speaker 3: don't remember.
Speaker 2: And then afterwards she goes by the way and said
Speaker 2: that you were amazing, a great teacher, and like she
Speaker 2: loved working with you.
Speaker 5: Oh, that's very kind of you to say, kind of
Speaker 5: her to say I must have paid her well.
Speaker 3: No, it made us.
Speaker 2: Even more excited because obviously your character one of the
Speaker 2: most evil defense attorneys in the twenty three season history.
Speaker 2: Do people yell at you in the streets or what.
Speaker 5: A little bit? Yeah, I have I have no friends
Speaker 5: on Twitter. I have only enemies, as you can.
Speaker 1: And so yeah, you we we follow you on Twitter,
Speaker 1: our our podcast does and you are very active on there.
Speaker 2: What's your what's the draw to Twitter for you? Do
Speaker 2: you like? Do you just like to get yelled at?
Speaker 5: No? No, no. The Twitter thing kind of came around for
Speaker 5: me when the pandemic happened, just to get out in
Speaker 5: the world. I guess I started getting more active on Twitter,
Speaker 5: and it's you know, it's part of the business for sure.
Speaker 5: And as for you, has taught me a lot. Rishka
Speaker 5: and moren in those guys like, yeah, this is what
Speaker 5: we do.
Speaker 1: Yeah, they're very active on social and the fan the
Speaker 1: fandom is very active too, and I find we find
Speaker 1: sometimes that the fans have a hard time separating the
Speaker 1: actors from the people.
Speaker 3: So yeah, absolutely, I'm sure.
Speaker 1: You do get some unnecessary hate.
Speaker 5: I understand that that's where they're coming from. But uh,
Speaker 5: for the most part, everybody in the end understands that
Speaker 5: you know, the actor is the actor, but it weighs
Speaker 5: on you open.
Speaker 2: But I do always say, because we like to play
Speaker 2: a game like if you're guilty, who are you hiring?
Speaker 2: And I would hire Buchanan if I needed to get
Speaker 2: we go away with murder.
Speaker 5: Oh so only if you're guilty is what you said.
Speaker 2: Yeah, if I didn't do it, I would go for
Speaker 2: one of the like like an Annie Potts whoever hers,
Speaker 2: you know, like a do gooder?
Speaker 5: Sure, sure I got so that you automatically have the
Speaker 5: end with the jury, then yeah we like her.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: So have you ever like, were there any scripts that
Speaker 2: you got that you were like, oh my god, this
Speaker 2: has gone to or like a case that really like
Speaker 2: stuck with you or something that just haunted you, or
Speaker 2: you were like, oh my god, I didn't know shit
Speaker 2: like this happens. Like, are any of your episodes stand
Speaker 2: out to you?
Speaker 5: They all kind of stand out to me, but it's
Speaker 5: probably not going to be for reasons that that the
Speaker 5: viewers would know, because it's all behind the scenes stuff
Speaker 5: that generally it's it or a particular scene where nothing
Speaker 5: really particular happened, but it was an enjoyable day. So
Speaker 5: most of the you know, I don't know how many
Speaker 5: of these.
Speaker 2: Well you could tell us those they'll love those.
Speaker 3: Yeah, okay, we love scoop.
Speaker 5: Well, they're not so much scoop as I just had
Speaker 5: great experiences do it. For instance, this one I had
Speaker 5: the one I was told we were talking about today,
Speaker 5: which is making the rapist. I don't remember the individual
Speaker 5: episodes all that well, especially this one's like six seven
Speaker 5: years old, but I did remember that. I believe it
Speaker 5: was Henry and Kelly Williams, yeah, because I watched it
Speaker 5: last night. So and Joe Biden, President Biden are in
Speaker 5: this episode, and of course he was vice president at
Speaker 5: the time. It sort of stands out for the reason
Speaker 5: that the closest I got to a vice President Biden
Speaker 5: was I got the air conditioning unit that the Secret
Speaker 5: Service used prior to it being in my dressing room,
Speaker 5: so I was close to the air conditioning unit that
Speaker 5: was close to the secret Service unit. That was Yeah.
Speaker 5: And then that also was the episode where I got
Speaker 5: to take my sons to set, which you know, if
Speaker 5: you know any of my work, they're in twenty and
Speaker 5: twenty two now, but they were like fourteen and sixteen then.
Speaker 5: And I live in DC, and most of my works
Speaker 5: in New York or somewhere else, and so they never
Speaker 5: got to see me at work, and they've never got
Speaker 5: to see what I actually shoot, because most of my
Speaker 5: jobs are you know, not safe for young children, including
Speaker 5: as for you. I got to show them a couple
Speaker 5: of minutes once of one where Alec Baldwin was in
Speaker 5: it and he was sitting you know, he was the
Speaker 5: main character of the episode obviously, and he was sitting
Speaker 5: behind me in the gallery. So I showed him a
Speaker 5: few minutes of that, and I was so proud that
Speaker 5: they were going to be like, there his dad doing
Speaker 5: the acting that he says he does. And all they
Speaker 5: could say was you know, Jack Donaghy. I was like, okay,
Speaker 5: so I know where I am. But I got a
Speaker 5: chance to take him to set on that day.
Speaker 1: Did they think it was cool or were they like
Speaker 1: trying to be like, we don't care dad, even though
Speaker 1: probably deep down they thought it was cool?
Speaker 2: Or Craft Services? Did they run with the craft services?
Speaker 5: They got all the swag with the hats and the
Speaker 5: stuff from great folks there. I mean, it's the best
Speaker 5: job an actor can have too. They're just wonderful folks.
Speaker 5: And they didn't get to meet everybody. I know, they
Speaker 5: met Raoul because Raoul and I were working a lot
Speaker 5: uposite each other. There was such a great rapport we
Speaker 5: had doing Barbara and Buchanan stuff, and he worked that
Speaker 5: he was working there and they got to meet him.
Speaker 5: They got to watch from video village. So because it
Speaker 5: was a very busy day, they couldn't even come with
Speaker 5: me to set because Joe Biden was working in the
Speaker 5: morning and so it was very limited. I couldn't even
Speaker 5: bring them with me, so I had to have friends
Speaker 5: bring them over after the Vice President left, and then
Speaker 5: they got to be on set. So wow, it's a
Speaker 5: lot of fun for them, and they enjoyed it.
Speaker 3: I think, I know, that's awesome.
Speaker 1: That's really fun when you get to show your kids
Speaker 1: what you do everything. My kids are really I have
Speaker 1: two kids too, and they're very young, so I imagine one
Speaker 1: day they'll be like, what's podcasting anyway?
Speaker 5: Which is what I asked when I well, it was
Speaker 5: this is the very first podcast I've done. I've only yes, oh,
Speaker 5: I've never listened to one or seen one that which
Speaker 5: is not true. We worked this out last night my
Speaker 5: friend Rebecca. I Rebecca, she talked me through your podcast, said,
Speaker 5: what's going to what's going to happen because I asked,
Speaker 5: what's going to happen on this? And so she talked
Speaker 5: me through it, and we talked about the fact that
Speaker 5: I had never been on one, let alone. I had
Speaker 5: never seen one or heard one, let alone been on one.
Speaker 5: And then I remember that I had actually heard the
Speaker 5: first couple of episodes of Cereal, and I was like, Hey,
Speaker 5: this is great. I'm going to get back to this.
Speaker 5: And that was eight ten years ago.
Speaker 2: That was Oh my god.
Speaker 1: I listened to Cereal through twice and I bet you'd
Speaker 1: really like it because it's all the Baltimore area, which
Speaker 1: is not super far from you, Like it's really really
Speaker 1: Oh I love zero.
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, we're excited to be your first one.
Speaker 5: Oh my god.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: So I was curious about, like how your whole SVU
Speaker 1: thing started, Like did you audition?
Speaker 2: Like I know you had already been on another another
Speaker 2: law and order before all intent? Yeah, criminal intent.
Speaker 5: Yes, yes, yes, I could not tell you. The vagaries
Speaker 5: of how I get hired are almost always beyond me.
Speaker 5: But I can't tell you that. I read you're both
Speaker 5: your bios. One of you blew an audition.
Speaker 2: Yeah that was me, that was me?
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, yeah, congratulations joined the club. Yeah, absolutely certain.
Speaker 5: I blew my first you audition, however long ago. That
Speaker 5: was twenty years ago, but I had I did get
Speaker 5: hired to do Criminal Intent, and I think that led
Speaker 5: to because Warren Light was the showrunner of that show
Speaker 5: when I was hired to do it. And so much fun.
Speaker 5: I got to play the dead body on Law and Order. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 5: it was so much fun. And another one I couldn't
Speaker 5: show my kids they were so young. But if you
Speaker 5: haven't seen it, I won't spoil it for you. But
Speaker 5: he ends and he doesn't end well, and he ends early.
Speaker 5: So I showed him right up to the part where
Speaker 5: Dad ends. But I'm pretty sure I was hired originally
Speaker 5: when David Platt was the showrunner and I had worked
Speaker 5: with him on the Wire in Baltimore. He had directed
Speaker 5: a couple of episodes, I think, and so my first
Speaker 5: episode as Buchanan was twenty ten something like that, and
Speaker 5: I believe David and Peter Ledo were the showrunners at
Speaker 5: the time, and I think that's how I got on,
Speaker 5: and then I was brought back. I guess they whenever
Speaker 5: they needed someone to defend some rich scumbag from Hudson
Speaker 5: University or something. I'm like, Okay, here I come, must
Speaker 5: be the bad guy for the bad guys.
Speaker 2: So well, not to keep jumping around, but you did
Speaker 2: mention the wire. Okay, how does it feel to be
Speaker 2: in such a beloved show?
Speaker 3: Do your sons? Have your sons watched that?
Speaker 2: I mean, that's considered one of the greatest shows in
Speaker 2: television history.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I hear that, and I agree. I mean, it's
Speaker 5: one of my favorite shows that I've ever seen, And
Speaker 5: of course it's the reason I still work in this business.
Speaker 5: I live in DC, and that opens and open the
Speaker 5: doors for me everywhere, including I'm sure through the law
Speaker 5: and order folks. But they've never seen it as far
Speaker 5: as I know. My eldest might be. He's out the
Speaker 5: doing this thing. But my twenty year old, I know,
Speaker 5: hasn't seen any of it yet. And it's one of
Speaker 5: those things where it's like they're not really interested because
Speaker 5: Dad takes it takes them out of it. But I
Speaker 5: think it's at some point in the future. They both said, yeah,
Speaker 5: we'll watch that. I'm like, great, you know, enjoy it,
Speaker 5: and I did. I haven't seen it in well twenty
Speaker 5: years or fifteen whenever it ended. I remember enjoying watching it,
Speaker 5: which I don't when I'm watching me at all. I
Speaker 5: can barely watch on order SVU because you know, I'm
Speaker 5: that guy who's like, yeah, I can't look at him.
Speaker 5: He's a terrible actor. But so I'm one of those
Speaker 5: people who doesn't like to watch themselves. But it was
Speaker 5: great doing that show. It opened all the doors and
Speaker 5: it's an important story and we're getting ready to release
Speaker 5: another one. I don't know if you know another David
Speaker 5: Simon George pelicanos Ed Burns production set in Baltimore called
Speaker 5: We Own the City. It's coming out on HBO Max
Speaker 5: at the end of April the twenty fifth.
Speaker 1: I believe, oh amazing, And are you a lawyer in
Speaker 1: this or are you a.
Speaker 5: College It's a different story than it's about the city
Speaker 5: of Baltimore, but it's not the fictional telling of It's
Speaker 5: a fictionalized telling of nonfiction. So I play a version
Speaker 5: of Kevin Davis, who is a police commissioner in Baltimore.
Speaker 5: After Freddie Gray happens, he gets promoted to commissioner and
Speaker 5: then while the Gun Trace Task Force is being brought
Speaker 5: out into the public. So I played Kevin Davis during
Speaker 5: those couple of years. I think it's two thousand and fifteen, sixteen,
Speaker 5: seventeen eighteen right in there.
Speaker 1: So Kevin Davis is a real person that is really
Speaker 1: better and you're playing this real person.
Speaker 5: Okay, guys, John Burnhal is playing a real person. Josh
Speaker 5: Charles is playing a real person. Jamie Hector. These are
Speaker 5: the leads of the series are Jamie Hector from the
Speaker 5: Wire and.
Speaker 2: Boh and he's from Bosh right, He's obsess.
Speaker 1: He was just in an episode no, but he was
Speaker 1: just in an episode of SVU that we covered.
Speaker 2: He was in an SDU episode a long time ago.
Speaker 2: I'm just making connections.
Speaker 5: So those they are playing a real folks and Umi
Speaker 5: Masako is playing I don't know. You'd have to ask
Speaker 5: the writers, but I think it's an amalgamation of people
Speaker 5: who are central to telling the story and.
Speaker 2: How's the prep work to playing a real person versus,
Speaker 2: you know, a Buchanan.
Speaker 5: I got a chance to meet Kevin and it was great.
Speaker 5: It was very helpful because I recorded some conversation with
Speaker 5: him in some video and there's video of him not
Speaker 5: actually playing him. I'm still playing a version of him,
Speaker 5: but it allows me to as the actor and I'm
Speaker 5: getting a little actory here, but it allowed me to
Speaker 5: just keep reminding myself not to act, not to create
Speaker 5: any more character than the man I knew and know
Speaker 5: Kevin Davis. And in this particular telling of the story,
Speaker 5: it's also you know, these are all the people.
Speaker 1: But then on the opposite side of that is like
Speaker 1: a Buchanan type character. How did you how do you like,
Speaker 1: I'm I'm I'm curious as to like how much of
Speaker 1: that is on the page versus what you put into it,
Speaker 1: because like when you're in this episode, I'm sure you
Speaker 1: don't remember because it was so long ago, but like
Speaker 1: you have this like you're you're interviewing this like team
Speaker 1: kid on the stand, you're about to cross examinem and
Speaker 1: you go, hello, Charlie. You do this like little condescending
Speaker 1: wave like you're about to like you're about to destroy
Speaker 1: this kid.
Speaker 2: And I just wonder, like, I'm like, is that on
Speaker 2: the page?
Speaker 3: Is that you?
Speaker 4: Like?
Speaker 3: How how did you create Buchanan?
Speaker 2: Like versus what did they give you? What did they
Speaker 2: tell you?
Speaker 5: Well after the first episode or two, and the things
Speaker 5: I guess I had brought to that character, they sort
Speaker 5: of when it was Buchanan they were writing for. I
Speaker 5: think they wrote towards that sort of uh disposition and
Speaker 5: those sort of tactics, and then you play them. I mean,
Speaker 5: for instance, in that I remember that this episode. I
Speaker 5: remember also because the guests were fabulous. Henry was fabulous,
Speaker 5: Kelly Williams is just amazing, and this kid, Cody I
Speaker 5: think his name is, who played Charlie. I just saw
Speaker 5: him again in Mayor of Eastown. He was fabulous and
Speaker 5: he was fabulous. He gave an amazing performance in this,
Speaker 5: and it was so it was easy for me to
Speaker 5: take what was you know, you know, it's minimal in
Speaker 5: the script, what they give you, but you understand the
Speaker 5: sense of it, or at least I try to understand
Speaker 5: the sense of it. You try and create the real
Speaker 5: life of that moment. So knowing who the character of
Speaker 5: Charlie was and how best, how best Buchanan might approach him,
Speaker 5: and that's where that came from, is to like, get
Speaker 5: on Charlie's good side, I remember that, so he'd be
Speaker 5: as friendly to me, and then he gave up the goods.
Speaker 2: So as it were, well, yeah, we love an in
Speaker 2: court confession, We love an in court breakdown.
Speaker 5: Oh yeah, it's the best stuff.
Speaker 2: How important is it for you to like, like or
Speaker 2: empathize with your character? Do you find goodness in him?
Speaker 2: Like do you have a background where he goes home
Speaker 2: or you're able to be like, this guy's kind of
Speaker 2: evil and loves money and I'm here in this moment,
Speaker 2: how do you do that?
Speaker 5: One of my a tenant I lived by. His perspective
Speaker 5: is everything. And you know, especially when you you know,
Speaker 5: I play nothing but generally bad characters, and that people
Speaker 5: that are perceived as bad from the outside. And I
Speaker 5: understand that. When I get hired, I understand that that's
Speaker 5: all I read for. I also understand that to play him,
Speaker 5: And this is something I do when I teach acting.
Speaker 5: I start with the idea that somebody has to play Hitler.
Speaker 5: And if you have to play Hitler, you have to
Speaker 5: believe like Hitler believes, and you have to think Hitler's
Speaker 5: doing the right thing when in everything that Hitler does.
Speaker 5: And so I'm not comparing Buchanan to Hitler. I think
Speaker 5: Buchanan is defending the sixth Amendment and working in the
Speaker 5: adversarial court system the way he's supposed to. But the
Speaker 5: concept remains the same, and that is somebody has to
Speaker 5: play the person that me personally I could not stand.
Speaker 5: You know, in real life, I think is an evil, evil, evil, evil,
Speaker 5: evil human being. And so to do that, you have
Speaker 5: to believe what he believes, and you have to like
Speaker 5: what he likes, and you have to like the fact
Speaker 5: that you have to kind of assume that he likes
Speaker 5: what he's doing, that he thinks he's doing good. We
Speaker 5: have several examples of that currently around the world that
Speaker 5: are causing more than consternation. So let's not go there.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I'll switch it up now.
Speaker 2: You mentioned you mentioned Kelly Williams, and you know, so
Speaker 2: many amazing guest stars and cast members are on this show,
Speaker 2: and you get to see people in flexing. Those courtrooms
Speaker 2: seems are hard and emotional and people are breaking down
Speaker 2: and yelling. So are there any performances in your history
Speaker 2: that you remember or other people outside of Kelly that
Speaker 2: you were really excited to work with? H?
Speaker 5: Oh God, Almost every single time I go oh that
Speaker 5: she I wanted to. Oh yes, every single time I
Speaker 5: see the name so and why wouldn't you? And of
Speaker 5: course it starts from the top. I mean, I'm sure,
Speaker 5: you've probably heard it before, but Mariska is a pretty
Speaker 5: good person. She is absolutely the greatest human being I've
Speaker 5: ever met in this business and probably in the world.
Speaker 5: So are one of them in the world anyway. And
Speaker 5: I don't know, I'm probably not the only one who
Speaker 5: says that, but she is kind of amazing. And it
Speaker 5: starts with her, but it's everyone around her too, and
Speaker 5: and Kelly and Ice and Peter and Danny and Chris
Speaker 5: and you know, on and on. It's the best job
Speaker 5: I've ever had. They're just good folks. And so what
Speaker 5: was the question? I think I went somewhere else.
Speaker 3: No, you did it.
Speaker 2: I said, are there any like performances or people you
Speaker 2: were excited to work with? And it seems like everyone
Speaker 2: and you love the job and Marishka is a queen is.
Speaker 5: Oh my gosh, Well, isn't that actually the answer?
Speaker 2: Yeah, you totally answered it. Yeah.
Speaker 1: We actually just heard the same thing from a season
Speaker 1: from a writer on the show that we interviewed and
Speaker 1: who also said that you are the very opposite of
Speaker 1: your characters. So you know, the rap is your reputation
Speaker 1: is getting out there that you're a nice person and
Speaker 1: you're not Buchanan, but I like, so we like we
Speaker 1: also just watched We're covering We're covering another episode where
Speaker 1: you you know, you're grilling Scherie applebe on the stand
Speaker 1: in like the Mill like she was in the military
Speaker 1: in the Coastguard and is raped and then like Hannah
Speaker 1: Marx plays this rape victim who's it does porn and
Speaker 1: like you have to like go up against these victims
Speaker 1: and like yell at them, and then what happens when
Speaker 1: they yell cut? Are you guys like hey, like are
Speaker 1: you making jokes or are you staying in it or
Speaker 1: like what's your what's your thing?
Speaker 5: In the moment between takes and during the scenes, I
Speaker 5: kind of stay away from the victims and I'm going
Speaker 5: to leave them alone, the actors playing the victims, and
Speaker 5: I think they want to stay away from me. But
Speaker 5: usually it's it's, uh, you know, it's cordial because it's
Speaker 5: the business we're all working, right. It reminds me of
Speaker 5: I believe my very first episode was it was the
Speaker 5: one with Misha.
Speaker 3: Barton yeap that Savior.
Speaker 5: Okay, So Misha is on the stand and we're trying
Speaker 5: to get the scene the two of us flowing better
Speaker 5: because we need the drama. Uh, And I got the
Speaker 5: nod from the powers that be to go off script
Speaker 5: and start saying very very very vile things to catch
Speaker 5: her off guard and to get you know, another reaction
Speaker 5: to whatever they were getting. So it was kind of
Speaker 5: the best and kind of the worst day because I
Speaker 5: had to say some really really nasty things.
Speaker 1: But I mean we just like we've talked to some
Speaker 1: people that are like, yeah, in between takes, Raoul is
Speaker 1: like singing l miz. I mean, do different people have
Speaker 1: all their different like you know things. So it's like,
Speaker 1: I'm just curious about your thing. But I think that's
Speaker 1: interesting that you're like, I'm just gonna stay away from
Speaker 1: the like the people playing the victim just until we're done,
Speaker 1: because like maybe they're playing it really method and you're not.
Speaker 1: You're not somebody any woman wants to see when they're
Speaker 1: on the stand.
Speaker 5: Yeah, well, there's some freedom when you're the regular and
Speaker 5: you're there every day, and that is Oh, he's just great.
Speaker 5: He is just as chill as he could possibly be
Speaker 5: between texts, and a lot of folks are like that.
Speaker 5: Peter can do that too, and everybody. Yeah, well, when
Speaker 5: you're there regularly because you have that that luxury of
Speaker 5: space and time, and but I have to stay in
Speaker 5: it because I have to nail it today.
Speaker 2: Yeah, because we need you back.
Speaker 5: We need you and we do too. Yes, bring back
Speaker 5: Buchan if you can in for da That's what I say.
Speaker 2: Oh God, because we covered your last one as well.
Speaker 2: I deserve some loving too. We did that on our
Speaker 2: podcast too. Oh really Yeah, we talked to Lee Hubila
Speaker 2: the victim that you were probably me too, because I.
Speaker 5: Was, yeah, that's what I do.
Speaker 1: Do you ever, like in your real life, like if
Speaker 1: you're dealing with like an annoying person, like whip out
Speaker 1: some of that Buchanan.
Speaker 2: Do you ever like tap into Buchanan?
Speaker 5: I try to go the other directions because mostly the
Speaker 5: knowing people are expecting you can. So yeah, killing with kindness, Yeah,
Speaker 5: like you know that's you know, that's somebody that I
Speaker 5: play on TV. But you know I'm just the guy
Speaker 5: walking down the street.
Speaker 2: So we're definitely getting that vibe.
Speaker 3: Yes, trying to get you to be mean, but you're
Speaker 3: not doing it.
Speaker 6: Okay, I could be mean.
Speaker 2: I don't want to. I don't want it, too scared,
Speaker 2: So we're in this wheel house you're always like, you know,
Speaker 2: you're someone in the justice system that's being shady. What
Speaker 2: uh do you have a dream role character? Do you
Speaker 2: ever want a script to come in that's like fun dad, sweet, sweet,
Speaker 2: sit calm dad, Like, is there something you're like, can
Speaker 2: I just please fucking play this type of person?
Speaker 5: Yeah? I think that probably has come across already. You know,
Speaker 5: I play this guy, but it's like the straight offers
Speaker 5: you get, Okay, the character that I get anyway, the
Speaker 5: character is Harvey Weinstein, but with a bag over his
Speaker 5: head so we won't even see your face. And I'm like, Okay,
Speaker 5: I get it. I play that guy. I get it.
Speaker 6: Let's let's try something else, okay, anything else. So yeah,
Speaker 6: the dream role is the dream role is the next role? Yeah,
Speaker 6: you know for the journeyman actors.
Speaker 5: So I'm not gonna pooh pooh on my niche, you
Speaker 5: know what I mean. But I am also open to
Speaker 5: other possibilities.
Speaker 1: If you're in casting, Delaney Williams available to play your.
Speaker 2: Next dad, college professor.
Speaker 3: College inspiring college professor.
Speaker 5: That's right, that's right.
Speaker 2: Well, you know, sometimes though with the defense attorneys, we
Speaker 2: see a little crack or their heart softens or something
Speaker 2: happens to them and they need the detective's help. So
Speaker 2: maybe something like that will happen, where a case will
Speaker 2: break you and you'll be like, I can't do this.
Speaker 5: Anymore, you know, from your mouth to Dicky.
Speaker 7: Yeah, you can't go prophet and starts doing pro bo
Speaker 7: no work.
Speaker 2: That's what I'm saying.
Speaker 5: Why not, Why couldn't he be Why couldn't he be? Well?
Speaker 3: Because shover Langham.
Speaker 2: You know Murska's husband, Peter, he started out as like
Speaker 2: this nasty defense attorney.
Speaker 3: By the end he's.
Speaker 2: Helping Olivia get baby Noah, and he does pro bon
Speaker 2: no work and starts helping. So you know there's a
Speaker 2: true they flirt. Now we'll see what happens.
Speaker 5: Oh, so are you what do they call it shipping them? No?
Speaker 3: No, no, no, I'm open ownership.
Speaker 2: We don't ship, but I hope when the show ends
Speaker 2: one day, I want Olivia with a man who deserves her.
Speaker 3: But you know, I'm not I'm not stuck on who
Speaker 3: it is.
Speaker 2: But we don't think it's to be Stabler.
Speaker 3: No, not Stabler, so not Stabler.
Speaker 5: But okay, I'm just gonna throw this out there. Don't
Speaker 5: don't call me crazy John if you can't Okay, okay,
Speaker 5: that's not gonna happen.
Speaker 2: So we're thinking hilarious shark jump for us.
Speaker 3: That would be amazing, that would be perfect.
Speaker 5: For this actor. But the the person you think she
Speaker 5: should be with is who she is.
Speaker 2: He in her life we don't know yet. We don't
Speaker 2: know if because we liked Ed Tucker but then they
Speaker 2: killed him off. But Cassidy is hot but too damaged
Speaker 2: for her. And I think Peter, I mean, it would
Speaker 2: be fun if she ended up with her real life
Speaker 2: husband on the show.
Speaker 3: I wouldn't I think that should be fun. Or it's
Speaker 3: somebody that we haven't met.
Speaker 2: Yet who's rich, who's gonna sweep her to Paris and
Speaker 2: she doesn't have to worry about anything anymore.
Speaker 5: Well, I'm pulling for Peter myself, but I don't.
Speaker 3: Know if you watch like we do.
Speaker 2: But I just caught up and the newest but the
Speaker 2: Kelly Giddish and Peter Scaraveno are together now.
Speaker 5: Yes that at the end of last year. They the
Speaker 5: end of last year, yes, right.
Speaker 2: Now, like uh, you know, CARIESI took her to meet
Speaker 2: his family for Italians dinner.
Speaker 3: So are progressing, which.
Speaker 5: Is it, and so you want that one. I want
Speaker 5: that one too, I do, I do.
Speaker 3: Yeah to the journey.
Speaker 5: I like that.
Speaker 3: You're into the ships this.
Speaker 5: Yeah, Now I'm wondering about Finn. Wait a minute, about.
Speaker 7: Ice have Yeah, he didn't got married, but well he
Speaker 7: didn't get married, he got engaged and then they had
Speaker 7: they had a wedding. But then at the wedding they decided,
Speaker 7: we don't really want to get married, we don't really care.
Speaker 1: But everybody drink and eat and let's have a fun time.
Speaker 1: So their wedding turned into a party, and that's where
Speaker 1: rollin's increased.
Speaker 3: And it was Jennifer Esposito.
Speaker 5: Yeah, oh yeah, yeah, Oh that's fabulous. So are they
Speaker 5: together then?
Speaker 2: Yeah, they're together now, Finn.
Speaker 1: So everybody's settling down at the sixteenth precincts.
Speaker 5: Oh my gosh, after twenty three years. You should start.
Speaker 1: Nesting after twenty three years. Seriously, that's so funny.
Speaker 5: It's kind of amazing that that. And I love that
Speaker 5: the original is back the mother Ship, mostly because I've
Speaker 5: never worked on it and I'd love to.
Speaker 2: But oh yeah, they should bring you in on the
Speaker 2: mother Ship for sure.
Speaker 5: Yeah, there you go.
Speaker 2: It could be somebody different.
Speaker 5: But yeah, why not?
Speaker 2: But or the new da Oh, I can't see you
Speaker 2: as a husband that they think that you did it
Speaker 2: but you didn't do it.
Speaker 3: I could see that for out.
Speaker 5: Oh yeah, absolutely, let's do that. Let's get that wrong.
Speaker 5: Oh and uh. The other thing I remember about that
Speaker 5: episode so well was it started off with the speech
Speaker 5: by Vice President Biden and addressing something that Marishka works
Speaker 5: in her Joyful Heart Foundation's that's the name, and they
Speaker 5: do a lot of work in ending the backlog, and
Speaker 5: I thought that was very cool. It worked out great.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so we have had a lot of listeners be like,
Speaker 2: do this episode and get Biden. We're like, I don't
Speaker 2: think that's gonna yeah.
Speaker 3: Well, well when I got the call, I was doing podcasts.
Speaker 5: Wait, when I got the call to do this, I
Speaker 5: was like, so I beat out Joe bid nice, I'll
Speaker 5: take that. So you just burst my bubble.
Speaker 1: No, he was never even a thought for us. What
Speaker 1: would he even say? I went on and I made
Speaker 1: a speech that would be a pretty boring interview.
Speaker 3: This is much better.
Speaker 5: Well, I don't know the yes. But another favorite thing
Speaker 5: I remember these memories, Yes, let me that, but the
Speaker 5: call sheet on that day had marishka Ice, Kelly Peter,
Speaker 5: Vice President Biden, and John Buchanan on you. I was
Speaker 5: like this, I'm keeping this.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, that's a framer. Yeah, I'm so glad you
Speaker 3: took it. Caara actually made fun of me.
Speaker 2: I always ask people like, oh, did you steal something
Speaker 2: from set or a memory or something, And you're the
Speaker 2: first person and you took the call sheet, and I
Speaker 2: am so happy.
Speaker 5: I think I did. I'm sure I did.
Speaker 6: I know.
Speaker 5: I took a picture of it at the very end.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's in the memory box somewhere. I'm sure.
Speaker 5: Yeah. Absolutely. It's like, okay, well, if I'm below on
Speaker 5: the cast list, I think rawl was on there too.
Speaker 5: You know, if I'm below on the cast list, just
Speaker 5: below Vice President Biden, then I'm doing okay. Yeah.
Speaker 1: We've had a couple of like not villainous, but you know,
Speaker 1: people that are not as beloved characters, such as John
Speaker 1: Buchanan on our podcast lately, and I feel like we're
Speaker 1: really showing the real side of these.
Speaker 2: Actors so people can stop screaming at them in the streets.
Speaker 3: And I'm I think we're doing a service.
Speaker 5: This is key. Let's get that word out there. But again,
Speaker 5: it's almost always, you know, on the Twitter it's I
Speaker 5: want to push you off the top of the building.
Speaker 5: I want to get you with my truck if I
Speaker 5: ever see Buchanan in the street, you know, that sort
Speaker 5: of thing.
Speaker 2: Like it's just the kind of thing that would never
Speaker 2: even occur me to know. But my mom's like that,
Speaker 2: like she can't look at Willem Defoe. She does not
Speaker 2: trust him, she wants nothing.
Speaker 5: To do with him.
Speaker 2: It's like a mom.
Speaker 3: Yeah, but you changed your Twitter bio.
Speaker 2: You U still have a really funny one that was
Speaker 2: like I played the character you love to hate, but
Speaker 2: it was like a fun little riddle you had, but
Speaker 2: you changed.
Speaker 6: Yeah.
Speaker 3: I don't remember the riddle, but it was cute. I
Speaker 3: remember being excited.
Speaker 5: Thank you. I think, yeah, well it was when you
Speaker 5: play the guy that people love to hate. That's what
Speaker 5: I think it meant. Yeah, so you're saying I should
Speaker 5: put it back. No, no, you do you?
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, he is so I cannot believe that
Speaker 1: was his first podcast. I know that he's gonna be
Speaker 1: hooked now. And he follows us personally on the ground.
Speaker 4: Yea.
Speaker 2: And it was just like an honor to be able
Speaker 2: to be with our like the main one of the
Speaker 2: main defense attorney is one of the most iconic, like
Speaker 2: hated characters of this series.
Speaker 1: So yeah, and this is probably like this is probably
Speaker 1: like a little bit like feels like a stupid thing
Speaker 1: to say, but I almost like respect people's acting so
Speaker 1: much more when I see how opposite of their character
Speaker 1: they are in real life. Like he's like a make
Speaker 1: your skin crawl asshole on that show, and he's just
Speaker 1: like a teddy bear of a man in real life,
Speaker 1: and I'm just like, wow, you really transform into a
Speaker 1: different person completely, you know.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So he loves his kids, he loves the arts,
Speaker 2: he loves DC and honestly, yeah, thank you.
Speaker 3: And a fun name, what's Delaney? Never heard of it?
Speaker 1: Delaney william I mean that I don't know for that
Speaker 1: means that sounds like a Southern like a Southern aristocrat,
Speaker 1: Delaney Williams, But I don't know, Susan incredible, Thank you
Speaker 1: so much. Yeah, thanks for coming on, Delaney. And uh,
Speaker 1: this post mortem of Making a Rapist one of the
Speaker 1: most aggressive episodes we've covered in a while.
Speaker 3: In terms of violence and burning. Yeah, but by the time.
Speaker 2: There's a burning, it it elevates the episode to horrific.
Speaker 2: There's no casual burnings, yeah, except in what's the one
Speaker 2: where the pregnancy packed one? There was a burned band,
Speaker 2: but that that episode's pretty funny anyways, there was a pregnancy,
Speaker 2: there was a burning. Yes, remember there's like a guy
Speaker 2: burning yes streets. Yes, And so that's kind of silly
Speaker 2: in terms of like that one was a little I
Speaker 2: guess that was a funny burn.
Speaker 3: I mean it was kind of a hilarious burning a
Speaker 3: live moment.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I guess.
Speaker 1: Like what we learned from this episode is like I
Speaker 1: really wish the cops would do a better job sometimes
Speaker 1: because these wrongfully convicted people are possibly being turned into
Speaker 1: more hardened criminals when they're incarcerated for you know, decades.
Speaker 2: That's why I have such a hard I'm giving just
Speaker 2: blanket respect to a profession or a type of person
Speaker 2: because we're all like no one likes to work right
Speaker 2: in general, or like a lot of people are bad
Speaker 2: at their jobs.
Speaker 3: So that's why I don't like it when it's.
Speaker 2: Like you're a police, you're the army, you're a doctor,
Speaker 2: you're the best, you're the best, you're a hero, and
Speaker 2: it's like no We're all just people and this is
Speaker 2: just a job. And some of these motherfuckers just won't
Speaker 2: investigate further, or they don't want to work together, and
Speaker 2: they want to go home and eat dinner and watch football,
Speaker 2: and like we have to remember that when we would
Speaker 2: just want to give blanket respect to these people. Yeah,
Speaker 2: and for me, like, I.
Speaker 1: Also learned a lot about like the adolescent interrogation tactics
Speaker 1: are so unethical in my opinion, Like I understand you
Speaker 1: think that this kid might be part of like a
Speaker 1: huge murder, but like he's sixteen years old, he should
Speaker 1: have his parent with him, he should have a lawyer
Speaker 1: with him, and he has below average intelligence. You're taking
Speaker 1: advantage of that. Like it's it's like, I don't know,
Speaker 1: I just think that's pretty gross. And I really hope
Speaker 1: that Brendan Dacy gets to see freedom again in his lifetime,
Speaker 1: because I don't know, I don't think he had anything
Speaker 1: to do with it. Steven Avery, on the other hand,
Speaker 1: you know, I'm sure we'll get our I'm sure we'll
Speaker 1: get our comments.
Speaker 2: Also, you should just eliminate junk yards. You cannot have
Speaker 2: a junk yard or a car lot, or it seems.
Speaker 1: Like a lot of trouble happens, so no more do
Speaker 1: seem so ominous, Like I think it's the car crusher too.
Speaker 1: That's like it feels like almost the same as like
Speaker 1: a cement like when there's someone hides a body in
Speaker 1: like the cement base of a building or something like that.
Speaker 1: It's like, yeah, you're never going to see this body again,
Speaker 1: like we're pulverizing it.
Speaker 3: Like speaking of junk yards.
Speaker 2: The reason it's so fresh in my head, I restarted
Speaker 2: on a plane and now I'm going to continue it casually.
Speaker 2: Now I'm not gonna but I'm going to rewatch Breaking Bad.
Speaker 5: Ah.
Speaker 2: So there is a junk yard murder, crazy scene, Yes,
Speaker 2: I recall. That's wild that you recall because this came
Speaker 2: out like over a decade ago and it was in
Speaker 2: season one, so you know it's a crazy scene.
Speaker 3: When fucking Cara remembers that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, because my brain has mostly melted away
Speaker 1: with children, but you know, I do remember that scene
Speaker 1: and Breaking Bad a lot of it sticks in my head.
Speaker 1: It was really such a huge show and like so
Speaker 1: amazing in television.
Speaker 3: It changed the game.
Speaker 1: You know, there's songs from Breaking Bad that I like
Speaker 1: have on playlists really, but I love Yes. Yeah, there's
Speaker 1: a TV on the radio song called DMZ that's in
Speaker 1: an amazing scene of Breaking Bad, and I like love
Speaker 1: listening to it. It's like a very like intense Walter
Speaker 1: White song. I just love Breaking Bad. That's the show
Speaker 1: I would rewatch if I didn't have twenty seasons of
Speaker 1: different television waiting on my DVR for me.
Speaker 2: Right now, I know it is Atlanta just started again.
Speaker 3: I know you mentioned.
Speaker 2: You've mentioned Atlanta so many times. I've never wonted watch it.
Speaker 3: Oh sorry, I'll stop mentioning it. I keep forgetting you.
Speaker 2: I keep bringing up conn Air, so you can keep
Speaker 2: bringing that is, you can keep bringing up at Lama.
Speaker 3: Stop bringing up conn Air. No, but Breaking Bad is.
Speaker 2: Now that you know everything, it's even more genius to
Speaker 2: see all these little moments and oh that's uh, there
Speaker 2: we go.
Speaker 3: That's the beginning of that.
Speaker 2: That's what this proves that they're showing this, they're doing that,
Speaker 2: and so it's even more impressive watching it the second
Speaker 2: time and like seeing all these little moments of character development.
Speaker 1: Well, also, I do one of the series I do
Speaker 1: have is like the most recent two seasons of Better
Speaker 1: called Soler on my DVR because I wanted to stay
Speaker 1: in the Breaking Bad universe. Although it's a very different show.
Speaker 1: I don't know if you would be into it. And
Speaker 1: I do want to say a quick thank you to
Speaker 1: the listeners that have been tagging me and messaging me
Speaker 1: about the fact that there is a new show coming
Speaker 1: out called Bosh Legacy.
Speaker 2: It's like a new season of Bosh.
Speaker 1: It's like on the Roku channel, or it's on like
Speaker 1: imdbast channelers, it's on some random channel, but I think
Speaker 1: I can watch it streaming somewhere and it's like it's
Speaker 1: like Bosh and his daughter like living their law enforcement
Speaker 1: lives like, but they're very different because I think she
Speaker 1: becomes a cop or something.
Speaker 2: I don't remember.
Speaker 1: I don't actually know, but it's it's this like new
Speaker 1: Bosh that everyone's been letting me know about, and I'm
Speaker 1: definitely going to dive in at some point.
Speaker 2: Well, I want to watch El Camino after because I
Speaker 2: never watched that.
Speaker 4: What is that?
Speaker 3: That's the after Breaking Bad?
Speaker 2: I get so, oh it was a movie, but it's
Speaker 2: straight up someone's explaining it to me. It's just like
Speaker 2: what happens to Jesse Pinkman after that final episode, like
Speaker 2: you just get to watch him for two.
Speaker 3: Hours and it's just a movie.
Speaker 2: Okay, KOVI about Pinkman post that show.
Speaker 1: I remember people were just calling it the breaking Bad movie,
Speaker 1: so I think I forgot that it was called.
Speaker 3: But okay, that.
Speaker 2: Sounds fun and yeah whatever, tell us cool things are
Speaker 2: happening and the JK or a nightmare. But this episode,
Speaker 2: the justice system is flawed. And that's another thing that
Speaker 2: bothers me about, just like rape culture in general is
Speaker 2: like this idea, like we know the justice system is flawed,
Speaker 2: we know rich people get away with crimes, we know
Speaker 2: it is racist, we know all this, But as soon
Speaker 2: as it's rape, it's well due process, we got to
Speaker 2: trust the laws and it's ye. But for everything else,
Speaker 2: you say that it's terrible and then you know it's.
Speaker 3: Just like kind of annoying.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Well, that segue is kind of into our what would
Speaker 1: Sister Peg do for this week, which is our weekly
Speaker 1: segment where we give you guys an article, a book,
Speaker 1: an organization something to give you more information, or like
Speaker 1: a charity you can donate to just to get more
Speaker 1: information and flesh out like the topic that we covered today,
Speaker 1: and this week, we're going to highlight the Center on
Speaker 1: Wrongful Convictions of Youth, and that is the legal firm
Speaker 1: that is representing Brendan Dacy's case. The CWCY is a
Speaker 1: nonprofit legal clinic that represents children and teenagers who have
Speaker 1: been convicted of crimes they didn't commit. There's literally so
Speaker 1: much information out there about how cops can get false
Speaker 1: confessions from people all the time, and then when you
Speaker 1: lower their age to teens and adolescents, it's just like
Speaker 1: wild that some of these confessions can even be admissible.
Speaker 1: So this organization spearhads national efforts to drive criminal justice
Speaker 1: reforms that will prevent children from making unreliable statements and
Speaker 1: coerced statements during police interrogations. So CWCY and their sister project,
Speaker 1: which is the Center on Wrongful Convictions, have exonerated more
Speaker 1: than fifty people. So if you guys want to learn
Speaker 1: more about them or donate, you can check out the
Speaker 1: link in our show notes. It's way too long for
Speaker 1: me to read on the podcast.
Speaker 3: Thank you for that.
Speaker 2: Next week we'll be covering Military Justice. Another complicated, depressing,
Speaker 2: terrible episode JK very good, but Military Justice Season fifteen,
Speaker 2: Episode eight Watch with us, Hulu, Peacock and anywhere USVU.
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for listening to us.
Speaker 3: See you next week.
Speaker 2: That's Messed Up as an exactly Right production.
Speaker 1: If you have compliments you'd like to give us or
Speaker 1: episodes you'd like us to cover, shoot us an email
Speaker 1: it That's Messed uppod at gmail dot com.
Speaker 2: Follow the podcast on Instagram at That's Messed Up Pod
Speaker 2: and on Twitter at messed Up Pod, and follow us
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Speaker 3: At glitter Cheese.
Speaker 1: As always, please see our show notes for sources and
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Speaker 1: Aalis Nelson, and to our mixer John Bradley, and to
Speaker 1: Henry Kaperski for our theme song and Carly gen Andrews.
Speaker 3: For our artwork.
Speaker 1: Thank you to our executive producers Georgia hard Start, Karen Kilgareff,
Speaker 1: Daniel Kramer, and everybody at a Exactly Right.
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