WEBVTT - Making a Rapist w/ Delaney Williams 0:00:00.160 --> 0:00:03.960 Of the law and Order franchises. SVU is considered especially watchable. 0:00:04.200 --> 0:00:06.760 We are the amateur detectives who kind of investigate the 0:00:06.840 --> 0:00:08.799 vicious felonies. These episodes are based on. 0:00:09.119 --> 0:00:11.240 These are our stories, done. 0:00:10.960 --> 0:00:32.520 Done, Hello, and welcome to That's Messed Up an SVU podcast. 0:00:33.080 --> 0:00:36.120 As always, I'm Kara Clank what If You Changed? 0:00:37.800 --> 0:00:42.159 And I am sometimes Lisa Trigger, and we're talking SVU 0:00:42.760 --> 0:00:45.120 the true crime the episode is based on. And then 0:00:45.159 --> 0:00:47.600 we talk to an incredible guest, and I think you 0:00:47.640 --> 0:00:49.480 guys are gonna lose your fucking. 0:00:49.320 --> 0:00:50.600 Cool for today's guest. 0:00:51.400 --> 0:00:56.040 A dramatic episode, a dramatic moment in history and time. 0:00:56.600 --> 0:00:59.360 And honestly, we're gonna have a dramatic intro right now, 0:00:59.400 --> 0:01:01.920 because you know, listen, we're in a bit of a 0:01:01.960 --> 0:01:04.319 time machine. I know everyone at by the time this 0:01:04.400 --> 0:01:07.960 episode comes out, we will have been raging about this 0:01:08.040 --> 0:01:10.720 for a couple of weeks. But as we're recording, it 0:01:10.760 --> 0:01:14.240 has just broken that the Supreme Court is likely going 0:01:14.280 --> 0:01:18.240 to overturn Roe versus Wade, And I just feel like 0:01:18.280 --> 0:01:21.040 I've been walking around like numb the last few days, 0:01:21.080 --> 0:01:23.760 Like I like, I yelled at my husband and was 0:01:23.800 --> 0:01:25.480 like why don't you ever say anything about it? And 0:01:25.520 --> 0:01:27.959 he was like okay, and he liked did some tweets, 0:01:28.000 --> 0:01:30.760 and I was like, you know, I it's like Lisa 0:01:30.880 --> 0:01:32.840 has pointed this out before too, yet like you don't 0:01:32.840 --> 0:01:35.040 hear enough men speaking up about this, Like I want 0:01:35.040 --> 0:01:35.440 to hear. 0:01:35.360 --> 0:01:37.199 Everybody talking about this more. 0:01:37.240 --> 0:01:40.680 And it's like we were fully gas lit since twenty sixteen. 0:01:40.760 --> 0:01:42.400 Oh, row is law, row is Law. 0:01:42.440 --> 0:01:45.160 We're gonna be fine, and now here we are and 0:01:45.240 --> 0:01:50.360 it's sad, but I think we can also work to 0:01:50.640 --> 0:01:54.120 affect change and help people. So we actually have been 0:01:54.160 --> 0:01:58.720 in touch with Planned Parenthood of California, and look, California 0:01:58.760 --> 0:02:00.560 is a place where we're never probably going to lose 0:02:00.600 --> 0:02:02.640 the right to abortion. We are very lucky that Lisa 0:02:02.640 --> 0:02:05.600 and I both live here, and you know, our governor 0:02:05.640 --> 0:02:09.560 is very is very invested in keeping abortion like a 0:02:09.600 --> 0:02:10.880 codified law in this state. 0:02:11.040 --> 0:02:14.560 So we are probably good. 0:02:14.680 --> 0:02:17.320 But Plan parent of California is actually doing a lot 0:02:17.320 --> 0:02:20.360 to help these other states. So we'll have a link 0:02:20.400 --> 0:02:22.359 in our show notes on how to donate to them 0:02:22.400 --> 0:02:25.040 and on our Instagram stories and stuff like that. And 0:02:25.120 --> 0:02:28.880 also they are running this campaign called say Abortion, and 0:02:28.919 --> 0:02:31.600 it's just encouraging people to tell their stories about their abortion, 0:02:31.720 --> 0:02:35.959 to talk about abortion. Let's get abortion out from the whispers, 0:02:36.000 --> 0:02:39.760 like it's not anything shameful to talk about, and let's 0:02:40.080 --> 0:02:44.680 pressure lawmakers to go along with what seventy five to 0:02:44.760 --> 0:02:47.760 eighty percent of this country wants, which is reproductive access 0:02:47.760 --> 0:02:51.680 for everyone and reproductive freedom. So go to say abortion 0:02:51.760 --> 0:02:54.440 california dot com, even if you don't live in California. 0:02:54.520 --> 0:02:57.120 They have lists of all these different rallies and stuff 0:02:57.160 --> 0:02:58.200 that are happening. 0:02:57.840 --> 0:02:58.959 In all different states. 0:02:59.000 --> 0:03:02.120 Like I just went on really quick and I saw Wichita, Cleveland, 0:03:02.200 --> 0:03:05.560 like everywhere, and so it's a great right now, it 0:03:05.600 --> 0:03:07.600 feels like, Okay, what are we doing, where are we marching? 0:03:07.639 --> 0:03:09.360 Where are we giving money? And I think they have 0:03:09.440 --> 0:03:12.799 kind of a good concentrated place where you can see 0:03:12.840 --> 0:03:15.000 what's going on in your area. You can donate to them, 0:03:15.000 --> 0:03:18.320 and they're they're helping. This is not going towards I believe, 0:03:18.360 --> 0:03:21.640 abortion access in California. This is going towards like you know, 0:03:22.160 --> 0:03:24.880 helping abortion funds in other states and stuff like that. 0:03:24.960 --> 0:03:27.880 And also we're going to be working on disseminating abortion 0:03:28.000 --> 0:03:29.560 funds on our Instagram as well. 0:03:30.200 --> 0:03:36.600 Yeah, and we are doing a abortion deep dive episode 0:03:36.720 --> 0:03:42.480 in a few weeks, so right now we're touching on it. 0:03:42.480 --> 0:03:46.680 It's it sucks. I don't even the numb is a 0:03:46.680 --> 0:03:53.040 good thing. Like I feel not surprised, not shocked, not anything. 0:03:53.160 --> 0:03:55.040 It's like we all fucking knew this forever. 0:03:55.600 --> 0:03:59.400 Like the moment Kevin All got put into the court, 0:04:00.200 --> 0:04:01.320 Clinton tweeted like Roe v. 0:04:01.440 --> 0:04:03.800 Wade is done, guys, And that was in twenty eighteen. 0:04:03.880 --> 0:04:07.520 And so often women are meant to like, oh, you're emotional, 0:04:07.560 --> 0:04:10.720 you'r irrational, you're over blahlah blah, you're you're over exaggerating, 0:04:10.760 --> 0:04:13.480 and it's like, no, what we feel is real. And 0:04:13.520 --> 0:04:15.880 even now, I did the dumb thing of going on 0:04:15.920 --> 0:04:18.960 Twitter and looking at Matt Gates posted some dumb bullshit 0:04:19.480 --> 0:04:21.320 and I was just looking at the comments and it's 0:04:21.400 --> 0:04:24.680 just people saying the dumbest fucking shit, and someone's like, ugh, 0:04:24.680 --> 0:04:28.120 women always acting so emotional, and it's like, yeah, I 0:04:28.160 --> 0:04:31.080 don't know why that's bad, Like everything that is feminine 0:04:31.120 --> 0:04:33.760 is deemed as bad, Like, yeah, maybe if men were 0:04:33.800 --> 0:04:36.240 more in touch with their emotions, there wouldn't be school 0:04:36.279 --> 0:04:40.200 shooters and genocide and war. I don't know, like, yeah, 0:04:40.200 --> 0:04:42.600 maybe you got like what makes you think you guys 0:04:42.600 --> 0:04:43.600 have killed it at life? 0:04:43.680 --> 0:04:45.360 When the world sucks, you. 0:04:45.320 --> 0:04:48.520 Know what I mean, even for you guys, Like yeah, 0:04:48.600 --> 0:04:53.200 I it's it's really appalling, and it's just horrific thinking 0:04:53.240 --> 0:04:58.320 of all the people that are gonna feel desperate and 0:04:59.440 --> 0:05:01.120 in danger and they're well and I. 0:05:01.040 --> 0:05:04.000 Think that's your planned parenthood of California is like is 0:05:04.040 --> 0:05:06.360 like trying to help, you know, getting people to our 0:05:06.400 --> 0:05:09.360 state and helping people with get access in our state 0:05:09.400 --> 0:05:11.400 if they can't get it in their own And I 0:05:11.520 --> 0:05:13.240 you know, you just reminded me when you talked about 0:05:13.240 --> 0:05:14.040 this Matt Gates thing. 0:05:14.360 --> 0:05:16.000 Now I can't find it, of course. 0:05:15.720 --> 0:05:18.200 But well it's about just like oh, you're over educated 0:05:18.200 --> 0:05:21.839 and you have a cat, and it's like the ideas 0:05:21.839 --> 0:05:24.360 of who gets abortions. You know, these guys they're just 0:05:24.400 --> 0:05:26.880 like they don't care because it's not about that, you know, 0:05:26.920 --> 0:05:29.400 it's like whatever you choose to fuck, And it's like, 0:05:29.480 --> 0:05:33.359 well that's there. Clearly that's your dumb and you're missing 0:05:33.400 --> 0:05:35.719 a very important element of all of this, which is 0:05:35.839 --> 0:05:40.760 assaults and incest. But also just like the idea of 0:05:40.760 --> 0:05:43.880 who gets abortions when it's truly like mothers who already 0:05:43.920 --> 0:05:48.400 have four kids. It's it's business ladies, it's educated people, 0:05:48.440 --> 0:05:51.240 it's twelve year olds. There was like a provider who 0:05:51.240 --> 0:05:54.160 posted all the different patients she saw in a year 0:05:54.200 --> 0:05:56.920 and a half. And the other delusional thing I saw 0:05:56.960 --> 0:06:01.760 online was some dumb anti abortion bitch being like, oh, 0:06:01.880 --> 0:06:05.440 you know, look at all them like protesting and being violent, 0:06:05.480 --> 0:06:09.280 and look at us. We we've been saving lives slowly 0:06:09.680 --> 0:06:13.400 on a grassroots level, getting together and like, and then 0:06:13.520 --> 0:06:16.719 all these women this woman posted actually when I worked 0:06:16.760 --> 0:06:19.040 and at a Planned Parenthood and I'd open the mail 0:06:19.040 --> 0:06:20.920 in an air tight room so if there was anthrax, 0:06:20.920 --> 0:06:22.840 I'd be the only one to die. And then it 0:06:22.960 --> 0:06:25.440 just started as a whole trend of people being like, yep, 0:06:25.480 --> 0:06:28.680 when I and I mean abortion doctors have been fully murdered. 0:06:29.000 --> 0:06:30.560 Yeah, these people are harassing. 0:06:30.680 --> 0:06:32.359 And then there was one woman who she said she 0:06:32.440 --> 0:06:34.919 was really pregnant and going to Planned Parenthood for services 0:06:35.000 --> 0:06:38.520 outside of abortion, and people were like trying to convince oh, no, 0:06:38.640 --> 0:06:41.880 she worked there. People were like the protesters were yelling 0:06:41.880 --> 0:06:43.640 at her like, don't do it, don't do it. She goes, 0:06:43.640 --> 0:06:45.560 I work here, And then they started throwing rocks at 0:06:45.600 --> 0:06:48.200 her and she was seven months pregnant. Like, these people 0:06:48.279 --> 0:06:50.640 are delusional at who they are, what they think they 0:06:50.640 --> 0:06:53.880 are doing. They think they're these like calm saviors of 0:06:53.960 --> 0:06:58.520 babies who are revolutionizing shit, and they they are delusional. 0:06:58.600 --> 0:07:03.080 These are QAnon fucks, like these are religious monsters and 0:07:03.120 --> 0:07:06.599 they're not people who listen to others, are in tune 0:07:06.640 --> 0:07:10.320 with others, or care actually for people like all these people, 0:07:10.440 --> 0:07:12.800 I doubt they donate. I doubt they do what care does, 0:07:12.840 --> 0:07:16.440 and you know, are casas and helping people in foster care, 0:07:16.480 --> 0:07:17.800 like they're not doing shit. 0:07:18.880 --> 0:07:21.960 Yeah, I mean I also, like I was just trying 0:07:21.960 --> 0:07:24.440 to find it, but I like saw this thing in 0:07:24.640 --> 0:07:28.600 someone's feed too about that. Somebody wrote this thing that 0:07:28.680 --> 0:07:31.520 was like, if you want to give your organs after 0:07:31.880 --> 0:07:35.640 you die, you need to fill out consent. So essentially, 0:07:35.960 --> 0:07:39.520 this law gives women less rights than a corpse because 0:07:39.560 --> 0:07:41.920 it is saying you must carry this baby, like you 0:07:41.960 --> 0:07:46.200 do not get this choice here. I think Analie's found it. Yeah, 0:07:46.280 --> 0:07:48.920 no one has the right to use your body to 0:07:49.000 --> 0:07:52.440 save another's life without your consent, Like you're just you're 0:07:52.480 --> 0:07:54.400 not allowed to just say, hey, I need your blood. 0:07:54.640 --> 0:07:57.680 Hey, I need your organs, like you know, you just can't. 0:07:57.880 --> 0:08:01.000 It's just not well. And there's no rea or talking 0:08:01.040 --> 0:08:04.040 to these people because if they were rational humans that 0:08:04.160 --> 0:08:07.920 listened and were in reality, they would understand the complexities 0:08:08.600 --> 0:08:11.560 of what abortion is and what I mean. 0:08:11.600 --> 0:08:12.480 There's people who don't. 0:08:12.800 --> 0:08:14.760 We don't talk about you mentioned like you know, the 0:08:14.800 --> 0:08:18.160 say abortion campaign, But I was recently talking with someone 0:08:18.200 --> 0:08:21.760 that like can't have children and had miscarriages and like 0:08:21.880 --> 0:08:24.280 didn't know that it took forever to have kids. Like 0:08:24.560 --> 0:08:26.440 people don't know about periods. I was doing some period 0:08:26.520 --> 0:08:28.320 jokes in Pittsburgh and some guy yelled out like I 0:08:28.360 --> 0:08:29.920 don't want to hear about that, and you know, I 0:08:29.920 --> 0:08:31.720 did a fun joke like that he should go down 0:08:31.720 --> 0:08:33.560 on people with periods for iron, and I got on 0:08:33.520 --> 0:08:36.960 a break like I'm fucking good. But it was this 0:08:37.000 --> 0:08:39.000 thing of like he didn't want to hear it. But 0:08:39.040 --> 0:08:41.240 I talk about come for like thirty minutes. So it's 0:08:41.240 --> 0:08:43.960 like you were totally fine hearing me talk about jizz 0:08:44.040 --> 0:08:47.280 forever and then one mention of period made you yell out, 0:08:47.440 --> 0:08:51.360 like it's it's all about femininity. It's like people don't 0:08:51.440 --> 0:08:53.800 like the comments sometimes online about periods where it's like 0:08:53.880 --> 0:08:56.040 it's every twenty eight days and it's like, actually it's 0:08:56.080 --> 0:08:59.280 irregular or it's heavy or it's not. Or people miscarry 0:08:59.320 --> 0:09:02.160 all the time and abortion is regular and d and 0:09:02.800 --> 0:09:05.400 sometimes you have I don't even know this stuff, but 0:09:05.440 --> 0:09:08.080 I know sometimes you want to keep your baby and 0:09:08.120 --> 0:09:10.960 you can't and you have to do these things. Or 0:09:12.160 --> 0:09:14.960 people's family members would have died if they had to 0:09:15.280 --> 0:09:19.280 be forced to give birth. It's like these people, it's 0:09:19.280 --> 0:09:21.240 hard to talk to them because it seems that they 0:09:21.320 --> 0:09:24.720 were open to anything. They would have already realized. 0:09:24.120 --> 0:09:25.360 This now, you know. 0:09:25.440 --> 0:09:27.600 It's like, I have members of my family that are 0:09:27.640 --> 0:09:28.920 anti choice and li. 0:09:28.920 --> 0:09:31.040 Then I just looked at my phone. It's eleven eleven. 0:09:31.080 --> 0:09:33.480 I think we can make a collective wish. Let's make 0:09:33.480 --> 0:09:35.960 a collective wish. 0:09:36.080 --> 0:09:36.360 Great. 0:09:36.920 --> 0:09:39.199 I have members of my family, though, who are anti choice, 0:09:39.200 --> 0:09:41.800 who are not these QAnon wacko people that you think of, 0:09:41.920 --> 0:09:43.560 you know what I mean that are throwing rocks at 0:09:43.600 --> 0:09:46.000 pregnant people outside of a planned parenthood. 0:09:45.520 --> 0:09:47.040 Like it is it is like. 0:09:47.400 --> 0:09:50.640 Oh, but they're religious, but it's a religious things, right, 0:09:50.720 --> 0:09:53.520 it's not even religious, and what is it. It's like 0:09:54.240 --> 0:09:57.000 this is I think this is a life and that's it. 0:09:58.000 --> 0:10:01.120 And like some but are they fighting as much for 0:10:01.440 --> 0:10:04.760 when the people are born? Are they fighting against the 0:10:04.800 --> 0:10:09.400 death penalty? It's bullshito. No, no, it's whatever they say. 0:10:09.679 --> 0:10:12.840 That's a lie, that is a bullshit. It's like it's 0:10:12.880 --> 0:10:14.880 that is not real because if it was real, they 0:10:14.880 --> 0:10:16.160 would be doing other things. 0:10:16.200 --> 0:10:16.560 They're not. 0:10:16.920 --> 0:10:17.800 No, absolutely. 0:10:17.840 --> 0:10:19.640 But the other thing too, is like when you talk 0:10:19.720 --> 0:10:21.880 to people like this that are like, oh, well, this 0:10:22.000 --> 0:10:23.840 is just when I think a life happens. They also 0:10:23.920 --> 0:10:28.480 agree with these exceptions of rape, exceptions of incest, these 0:10:28.520 --> 0:10:31.040 certain exceptions, and it's like, yes, but there are too 0:10:31.080 --> 0:10:33.480 many exceptions. There are too many things. It has to 0:10:33.520 --> 0:10:37.240 be blanket. It has to be blanketly like granted and 0:10:37.400 --> 0:10:38.240 not want. 0:10:38.080 --> 0:10:41.240 To have a kid and that is fine, yes to me, 0:10:42.000 --> 0:10:45.280 Like being like, oh no, it's more broad, Like being 0:10:45.320 --> 0:10:51.600 anti choice is crazy to me. To me, Like, it's 0:10:51.640 --> 0:10:53.760 not the majority like eighty percent. 0:10:53.800 --> 0:10:55.920 Like I saw a poll today that was like twenty 0:10:56.040 --> 0:10:58.520 percent of people are saying that they believe in this 0:10:58.720 --> 0:11:00.679 because it's a control thing that the end of the day, 0:11:00.720 --> 0:11:01.520 no matter how you. 0:11:01.520 --> 0:11:04.800 Twist it, it is I don't believe. 0:11:04.520 --> 0:11:06.280 In this so you can't do that. 0:11:06.600 --> 0:11:09.920 Yeah, yeah, you know a lot of Jewish people were 0:11:09.960 --> 0:11:15.200 posting that in Jewish faith it is absolutely mandatory to 0:11:15.240 --> 0:11:16.400 do an abortion to save. 0:11:16.280 --> 0:11:19.079 Them other's life. Yeah, you know what I mean. 0:11:19.240 --> 0:11:25.240 So what is your You know, it's control and arrogance 0:11:25.280 --> 0:11:27.280 and thinking that people need to live the way you 0:11:27.400 --> 0:11:30.920 need to live. And to think that you're saving babies 0:11:31.760 --> 0:11:35.920 from a giant genocide, go fuck yourself. You know what's 0:11:36.000 --> 0:11:38.440 really happening. There's kids in cages. Why don't you go 0:11:38.480 --> 0:11:42.400 help them? On American soil. There's kids in cages being 0:11:42.400 --> 0:11:45.560 fucking human trafficked by government officials. Why don't you worry 0:11:45.600 --> 0:11:49.520 about that? These are all bullshit people. I don't respect them, 0:11:49.600 --> 0:11:51.360 I don't like them, and I don't have to be 0:11:51.440 --> 0:11:54.200 nice to them. If I was in a conversation with 0:11:54.280 --> 0:11:57.319 someone and they revealed that they were anti choice, I 0:11:57.360 --> 0:11:59.120 would get up and walk away. I would have no 0:11:59.200 --> 0:12:02.160 reason to have the people in my life or entertain them. Yeah, 0:12:02.200 --> 0:12:04.840 and that is a that is a hard line for me, 0:12:05.000 --> 0:12:06.280 and I don't you know. If there are people on 0:12:06.320 --> 0:12:09.079 this podcast, I don't care, write us an email. I 0:12:09.080 --> 0:12:11.000 don't give a shit. I'm not changing my point. 0:12:11.040 --> 0:12:14.040 If you are pro if you are anti choice, and 0:12:14.080 --> 0:12:19.360 you listen to this podcast, I mean, wow, well listen, 0:12:19.559 --> 0:12:21.400 we're going to get more into this in a couple 0:12:21.400 --> 0:12:24.079 of weeks when we do, like Liza mentioned, a more 0:12:24.240 --> 0:12:28.920 abortion specific episode, and you know, there's a lot of 0:12:28.920 --> 0:12:31.240 move We obviously wish we could do one very soon. 0:12:31.320 --> 0:12:33.400 There's a lot of moving pieces to this podcast. We're 0:12:33.400 --> 0:12:35.280 not dragging our feet. We've had the idea to talk 0:12:35.280 --> 0:12:37.320 about this for a long time. Also, this was a leak. 0:12:37.520 --> 0:12:39.160 This wasn't supposed to come out until June. 0:12:39.320 --> 0:12:41.440 But I also believe do you hear this that they 0:12:41.520 --> 0:12:43.440 leaked it on purpose so people are mad now, so 0:12:43.480 --> 0:12:45.480 then when it's overturned, people will be calm. 0:12:45.600 --> 0:12:48.440 And it's like, yeah, but we need to like keep 0:12:48.440 --> 0:12:50.559 the outrage up. I don't think that that's difficult to 0:12:50.640 --> 0:12:53.280 keep the outrage up for May and June. I mean 0:12:53.320 --> 0:12:56.800 we had a full summer of like protesting for Black 0:12:56.840 --> 0:12:58.920 Lives Matter. I think people can keep it up. So 0:12:59.600 --> 0:13:02.400 I really hope that's that's bullshit. But I have heard 0:13:02.400 --> 0:13:04.520 that theory from other people that they leaked it on 0:13:04.600 --> 0:13:08.319 purpose to like sort of dull the rage when the 0:13:08.360 --> 0:13:09.640 actual decision comes down. 0:13:09.800 --> 0:13:12.400 Not those fuckers. Fuck everyone. But I don't want this 0:13:12.440 --> 0:13:16.840 to all be so can What can you tell people 0:13:16.840 --> 0:13:17.800 about your Monday Night? 0:13:17.880 --> 0:13:18.240 Maybe? 0:13:18.520 --> 0:13:20.960 Yeah, just so it's like a little bit of a 0:13:21.040 --> 0:13:22.240 positive twist. 0:13:22.520 --> 0:13:26.360 So yeah, So Monday night, I went to this wonderful 0:13:26.920 --> 0:13:30.560 show hosted by a drag queen named Tony Soto in 0:13:31.320 --> 0:13:34.120 Silver Lake at the Amazing Gay Bar Act Bar. 0:13:34.280 --> 0:13:36.640 It's an amazing, amazing. 0:13:36.240 --> 0:13:38.200 Bar that I love to go to and I'd never 0:13:38.240 --> 0:13:43.320 been to this before and it was like, it's just 0:13:43.360 --> 0:13:45.760 a lip sync contest. It's like you sign up and 0:13:45.800 --> 0:13:47.520 it's almost like a lip sync open mic. You can 0:13:47.600 --> 0:13:49.640 just sign up and go up and lip sync to 0:13:49.679 --> 0:13:51.960 whatever song you want. Some people are in drag, some 0:13:52.000 --> 0:13:54.760 people are fully just in their their street clothes, just 0:13:54.800 --> 0:13:55.480 doing whatever. 0:13:55.800 --> 0:13:58.319 It was so fun. Tony is such a funny host. 0:13:58.400 --> 0:14:00.760 My two friends Brent and l It from the You're 0:14:00.800 --> 0:14:05.480 Making It Worse podcast were judging it and it was 0:14:05.800 --> 0:14:06.199 I just. 0:14:06.160 --> 0:14:06.760 Had a blast. 0:14:06.880 --> 0:14:10.240 Shake Cool was there, former friend of the pod guest 0:14:10.880 --> 0:14:13.959 from our very first live show, and I got to 0:14:14.000 --> 0:14:17.800 hang out with Shay and Maxwell from the Top Model 0:14:17.840 --> 0:14:21.560 podcast and everybody and Shay's boyfriend Dan who we love 0:14:21.760 --> 0:14:24.520 like it was just a really really fun night and 0:14:25.120 --> 0:14:27.400 an unexpected, like Monday night thing. I was just like, 0:14:27.440 --> 0:14:29.640 I'm just gonna go check this out, and then it 0:14:29.680 --> 0:14:31.240 turned out to be like just one of the funnest 0:14:31.320 --> 0:14:34.280 nights I've had in a while. And then we got 0:14:34.320 --> 0:14:37.520 an email offering Lisa and I to be judges, So 0:14:37.680 --> 0:14:39.080 mark your little calendars down. 0:14:39.080 --> 0:14:42.400 We're gonna be judging learn the words. 0:14:42.080 --> 0:14:47.600 Bitch at Acbar on July eleventh, So really excited about that. 0:14:48.760 --> 0:14:51.320 And then I'll also plug one other quick thing we've 0:14:51.480 --> 0:14:53.480 we A couple of weeks ago, we told a lot 0:14:53.520 --> 0:14:55.800 of you guys about the podcast Ruined, which is hosted 0:14:55.840 --> 0:14:58.240 by our friends Alice and Lebey and Hallie Keefer. It's 0:14:58.280 --> 0:15:01.280 where one girl loves the other one hates it and 0:15:01.360 --> 0:15:04.640 she explains a horror movie to the horror hater, and 0:15:05.440 --> 0:15:09.400 it's like a fun little podcast about horror. If you 0:15:09.480 --> 0:15:11.280 whether you love the horror you hate it, You've got 0:15:11.280 --> 0:15:12.240 one person on there that. 0:15:12.160 --> 0:15:13.040 You can identify with. 0:15:13.240 --> 0:15:15.200 And I'm going to be a guest host of it 0:15:15.320 --> 0:15:19.280 today on today's episode of Ruined. So go to Apple 0:15:19.520 --> 0:15:23.240 or Spotify or wherever you podcast and check out I'm 0:15:23.240 --> 0:15:25.320 the one getting explained to, because you guys know I'm 0:15:25.320 --> 0:15:26.320 not a huge horror girl. 0:15:27.080 --> 0:15:27.920 So yeah, that's. 0:15:27.760 --> 0:15:30.840 Coming out today. And then, as usual, I want to 0:15:30.920 --> 0:15:35.240 plug our tour dates. You guys, we are touring around 0:15:35.280 --> 0:15:38.840 a little bit still. We've got shows coming up. Let 0:15:38.840 --> 0:15:43.120 me tell you. We've got shows coming up in San 0:15:43.160 --> 0:15:47.480 Diego on June fifth, San Francisco on June ninth. And 0:15:47.840 --> 0:15:49.960 I don't think we've announced it on the podcast yet 0:15:50.040 --> 0:15:52.200 that we are coming to Minneapolis. 0:15:52.480 --> 0:15:53.160 If you live in the. 0:15:53.160 --> 0:15:56.160 Midwest, if you live anywhere within driving distance of Minneapolis, 0:15:56.200 --> 0:15:59.240 come see us at the Minneapolis Comedy Festival. That's on 0:15:59.360 --> 0:16:02.120 June nineteen. Look, the show is at four o'clock in 0:16:02.160 --> 0:16:05.480 the afternoon. You can drive back to wherever you live 0:16:05.600 --> 0:16:07.760 and you can get home in time to, like, I 0:16:07.800 --> 0:16:10.040 don't know, put your kids to bed or whatever you need. 0:16:10.080 --> 0:16:13.160 But it's kind of a fun afternoon thing on Father's Day. 0:16:13.520 --> 0:16:16.320 Ditch your father or the father in your life and 0:16:16.440 --> 0:16:20.360 come see us. And we just found out also that 0:16:20.800 --> 0:16:24.080 right after Minneapolis will be heading to dun Da Da 0:16:24.160 --> 0:16:28.880 Da Da Da, Liza's hometown of Chicago, two. 0:16:28.760 --> 0:16:31.440 Shows at Zany's so excited. 0:16:31.520 --> 0:16:34.760 We're gonna be at Zany's Downtown on June twentieth and 0:16:34.880 --> 0:16:38.960 June twenty first two shows listen. It's a small room 0:16:39.240 --> 0:16:42.320 and I kind of think that people listen in Chicago, 0:16:42.440 --> 0:16:46.720 So get your tickets quickly so that you know you 0:16:46.720 --> 0:16:48.400 don't get left in the cold and you don't get 0:16:48.400 --> 0:16:51.080 to come see us in Chicago. We're so excited, guys, 0:16:51.200 --> 0:16:53.360 You've all been so awesome coming to see us on tour. 0:16:53.440 --> 0:16:55.240 And even if you don't live in one of these cities, 0:16:55.240 --> 0:16:57.480 we're probably coming to your city soon. Thank you for 0:16:57.560 --> 0:17:00.600 all the comments on Instagram telling us what's you live in. 0:17:00.880 --> 0:17:03.000 But if you live in if you have friends in 0:17:03.040 --> 0:17:04.480 the places where we're coming. 0:17:04.280 --> 0:17:05.160 Please spread the word. 0:17:05.200 --> 0:17:08.439 Help us be able to sell tickets so that we 0:17:08.560 --> 0:17:09.320 can come to your. 0:17:09.240 --> 0:17:11.800 City and we have fun. We have a good time. 0:17:12.040 --> 0:17:13.560 Yeah, no, we have a blast. 0:17:14.119 --> 0:17:17.119 My big claim to fame with a celeb this week 0:17:17.520 --> 0:17:21.440 was I got to do Natasha Lazio and Mosha Casher's 0:17:21.480 --> 0:17:27.879 podcast Endless Honeymoon And it was at the Masonic Theater 0:17:28.119 --> 0:17:32.600 at the Hollywood Forever Cemetery. I've ever been there, and 0:17:33.200 --> 0:17:36.040 what a place, what a place. It feels so special 0:17:36.720 --> 0:17:39.680 and I was indoors. It wasn't outside at the time. 0:17:39.880 --> 0:17:43.000 It was in the Masonic Lodge and which is on 0:17:43.080 --> 0:17:45.960 the grounds, but they have an whole artistic program and 0:17:46.640 --> 0:17:49.440 it's gorgeous in there. And my mom was like, when 0:17:49.440 --> 0:17:51.159 I was talking to her, she goes a show it 0:17:51.240 --> 0:17:52.000 a cemetery. 0:17:52.000 --> 0:17:53.440 What's going on in California? 0:17:53.560 --> 0:17:56.480 Like it is like wild, it's so celebratory, but we 0:17:56.520 --> 0:17:58.640 are in Hollywood and a lot of famous people are 0:17:58.680 --> 0:18:02.040 buried there. But Fred Ormison was the other guests with me, 0:18:02.200 --> 0:18:05.239 so I got to fucking just casually hang out with 0:18:05.320 --> 0:18:08.720 a fucking snl legend and everyone was so funny. But 0:18:08.920 --> 0:18:12.399 he had his fiftieth birthday party at that lot at 0:18:12.400 --> 0:18:16.040 the part, you know, and his friends got together and 0:18:16.080 --> 0:18:17.800 his big gift was they got him a plot at 0:18:17.800 --> 0:18:18.480 the cemetery. 0:18:20.400 --> 0:18:20.960 Wow. 0:18:21.520 --> 0:18:23.520 So he has a plot and all of his friends 0:18:23.600 --> 0:18:26.000 like presented it to him on his fiftieth birthday at 0:18:26.080 --> 0:18:29.320 the at the Masonic class. Wow. They're like, this is 0:18:29.359 --> 0:18:30.560 where you're gonna be buried. 0:18:30.760 --> 0:18:32.440 Wow. Yeah. 0:18:32.480 --> 0:18:35.720 But it was cool doing someone else's podcast live and 0:18:36.240 --> 0:18:38.159 it was so fun and there was people asking for advice. 0:18:38.200 --> 0:18:42.080 But Mosha Natasha just so funny and quick and like 0:18:42.320 --> 0:18:45.280 so funny I and Fred. I mean I was just 0:18:45.480 --> 0:18:49.359 laughing and laughing and it was just like a special 0:18:49.480 --> 0:18:50.960 evening and I can't wait. 0:18:50.840 --> 0:18:52.119 To go back to that cemetery. 0:18:52.760 --> 0:18:56.720 Yeah, I've been on I've been at a couple of satyrs. 0:18:56.920 --> 0:19:00.200 Guy Branham does these satyrs that are so fun there, 0:19:00.240 --> 0:19:02.520 like he fully plots them out like a game show 0:19:02.880 --> 0:19:05.159 and they're all these little mini games and stuff. And 0:19:05.680 --> 0:19:07.359 it's a lot of comedians and then a lot of 0:19:07.440 --> 0:19:09.680 like just his gay friends and it's so fun. 0:19:09.880 --> 0:19:11.880 And Mosha Natasha have been at a. 0:19:11.800 --> 0:19:14.560 Few or one was on Zoom during the pandemic, and 0:19:14.720 --> 0:19:18.879 it always feels like I'm like trying to make them laugh, Like, 0:19:19.520 --> 0:19:23.840 so I they are so funny, and I'm. 0:19:23.640 --> 0:19:24.919 Sure the show was so awesome. 0:19:25.040 --> 0:19:26.880 Yeah, and there was a couple we had to make 0:19:26.920 --> 0:19:29.320 fun of them, but they came to the Netflix as 0:19:29.359 --> 0:19:34.520 a joke festival for their honeymoon. Wow, And so Natasha 0:19:34.560 --> 0:19:36.919 was like, well we went to Bora, Bora, but cool. 0:19:41.400 --> 0:19:42.880 So that. Yeah, just like a. 0:19:42.840 --> 0:19:45.959 Couple fun things that we did while the world burns 0:19:45.960 --> 0:19:51.960 around us that maybe will lead us into this horrific episode. Yeah, 0:19:52.280 --> 0:19:55.919 damn things, Thanks for being our friends, and yeah, listen 0:19:56.000 --> 0:19:59.160 to this podcast. Yeah, let's get started, because this has 0:19:59.160 --> 0:20:01.439 been you know, on account of our ranting, this has 0:20:01.480 --> 0:20:04.359 been a beefy intro, and we do have a very 0:20:04.359 --> 0:20:05.680 fun hot episode for you. 0:20:05.800 --> 0:20:06.920 So here it is. 0:20:10.800 --> 0:20:14.840 So today we are doing Making a Rapist Season eighteen, 0:20:15.080 --> 0:20:18.080 episode two, and you know, it's a tough one, I 0:20:18.080 --> 0:20:19.920 would say, but thrilled. 0:20:20.080 --> 0:20:21.320 And I was also thinking, I'm. 0:20:21.160 --> 0:20:23.200 Happy for the writers and everyone that Warren Light took 0:20:23.200 --> 0:20:25.040 a few days off or a few seasons off so 0:20:25.040 --> 0:20:28.000 they didn't have to do eighteen letters and they could 0:20:28.119 --> 0:20:30.879 just have making a Rapist, which is a good title, 0:20:30.960 --> 0:20:33.000 you know what I mean. Yeah, they didn't have to 0:20:33.000 --> 0:20:38.320 play any Anagram games. So congratulations to the writers of 0:20:38.359 --> 0:20:42.439 season eighteen with a chill title. Now we do open 0:20:42.480 --> 0:20:46.359 on Joe Biden, which is jarring because. 0:20:46.400 --> 0:20:48.879 Yeah, and thank you to everybody who's reached out and 0:20:48.920 --> 0:20:52.080 said please get Joe Biden as a guest on the podcast. 0:20:53.119 --> 0:20:54.120 I don't know what we would. 0:20:53.920 --> 0:20:55.760 Have asked him. He's on for two minutes. 0:20:56.000 --> 0:20:58.159 But I also think it would be really funny to 0:20:58.160 --> 0:21:00.320 have secret service on a Zoom with us or something. 0:21:01.000 --> 0:21:03.360 Yeah, I mean, he can't even do his job. Right now. 0:21:03.359 --> 0:21:05.560 I don't know if you can get an extra podcast 0:21:05.600 --> 0:21:10.040 in that schedule of his truly, just can you do something? Okay, 0:21:11.480 --> 0:21:14.120 he is vice president at this point, if you are unaware. 0:21:14.320 --> 0:21:17.240 So he is talking about abuse of power and that 0:21:17.359 --> 0:21:19.440 rape is the worst abuse of power and how hard 0:21:19.480 --> 0:21:22.199 it is for women to heal, and then again like 0:21:22.240 --> 0:21:25.480 the victim isn't believed in rape kits, how invasive they are, 0:21:25.520 --> 0:21:28.840 they're not tested, and we fail women all the time. 0:21:29.359 --> 0:21:31.320 Oh and then he goes like, and now we're here 0:21:31.359 --> 0:21:34.760 to celebrate this squad. So the sixteenth Precinct is getting 0:21:34.760 --> 0:21:39.400 a vice president. Hero welcome and he knows Olivia Benson 0:21:39.440 --> 0:21:42.960 and everybody. So that's I just wonder how this came about, Like, yeah, 0:21:43.000 --> 0:21:43.880 did he reach out? 0:21:43.920 --> 0:21:45.760 Did she reach out? Did they meet up an event? 0:21:45.880 --> 0:21:49.800 But saw him at like a dinner and was like, 0:21:50.160 --> 0:21:53.040 let's talk, joyful heart, and would you want to come 0:21:53.080 --> 0:21:56.240 and do this? Like for sure, I think vice presidents 0:21:56.240 --> 0:21:59.200 can do little like cameos on shows and it's not 0:21:59.400 --> 0:21:59.960 like that weird. 0:22:00.080 --> 0:22:01.720 I guess it's weird to be president now. 0:22:01.800 --> 0:22:04.640 Well, I didn't realize vice president was such a disrespected 0:22:04.720 --> 0:22:06.200 job until the show V Yeah. 0:22:06.200 --> 0:22:09.760 And then it was thrilling. I'm like, wow, I guess they. 0:22:09.640 --> 0:22:12.080 Just go to county fairs and that's the way that 0:22:12.119 --> 0:22:14.520 they're the way that they do Kamala dirty all the time. 0:22:14.600 --> 0:22:17.280 It's like, yeah, the show kind of warned you, you 0:22:17.320 --> 0:22:18.560 know that it was going to be like this. 0:22:19.200 --> 0:22:24.080 Yeah, but people love proximity to power. Yes, And everyone 0:22:24.160 --> 0:22:27.200 is staring at Joe Biden very seriously. We have Benson's 0:22:27.240 --> 0:22:30.359 behind him, and then Ice Rollins and Creasy in front 0:22:30.720 --> 0:22:33.399 with the crowd and there's like thirty people listening to 0:22:33.440 --> 0:22:37.080 Biden speak. He calls Benson a friend and he congratulates 0:22:37.119 --> 0:22:40.040 her and she, you know, she thinks it's an honor. 0:22:40.200 --> 0:22:43.560 And since we've started clearing the rape backlog, he says, 0:22:43.560 --> 0:22:48.040 we've taken rapists off the street, prevented future crimes, and 0:22:48.080 --> 0:22:50.359 now we're able to write a terrible wrong. 0:22:50.440 --> 0:22:52.399 And we're getting into the thick of the episode. 0:22:52.440 --> 0:22:55.480 Here we find out sixteen years ago a man named 0:22:55.480 --> 0:22:58.119 Sean Roberts was convicted of a rape, and then they 0:22:58.200 --> 0:23:00.560 panned to a white man with like a anchor hair 0:23:00.560 --> 0:23:04.359 and outfit. He did not commit the rape because and 0:23:04.400 --> 0:23:06.440 they found that out because they processed a rape kit 0:23:06.480 --> 0:23:08.920 in Detroit and found the real rapist and now Sean 0:23:09.000 --> 0:23:12.240 is able to be free after sixteen years incarcerated. And 0:23:12.280 --> 0:23:14.560 they also panned the camera to a mother daughter duo 0:23:14.680 --> 0:23:17.320 who the mom is played by Kelly Williams. Hell, yes, 0:23:17.359 --> 0:23:19.600 if you watch the practice, this is a big day 0:23:19.640 --> 0:23:22.199 for us all. And there's a lot of press at 0:23:22.240 --> 0:23:24.800 this event, and Sean is thanking everyone and he's been 0:23:24.800 --> 0:23:28.240 out of jail for a month and it feels great, obviously, 0:23:28.400 --> 0:23:30.840 and he says he has no ill will towards Melanie 0:23:30.880 --> 0:23:33.960 and Ashley, that's the mother daughter duo, and they want 0:23:33.960 --> 0:23:36.399 to make amends, and Ashley reveals she invited Sean to 0:23:36.440 --> 0:23:39.200 her future wedding and they're going to be friends. And Benson, 0:23:39.359 --> 0:23:42.480 shocked by that, nuds she's judgy. There's a subtle brow 0:23:42.520 --> 0:23:45.640 lift there. And then the mom, Melanie, walks over to Benson, 0:23:45.640 --> 0:23:48.880 who says, wow, so you guys have gotten close, and 0:23:48.960 --> 0:23:51.520 she says she's just glad that Sean has forgiven her 0:23:51.640 --> 0:23:54.320 and Finn says, hey, it was an honest mistake, girl, 0:23:54.480 --> 0:23:57.719 but let bygones be by guns. Finn throw out those 0:23:57.760 --> 0:24:01.080 whole episodes like whatever mistakes happen, like he truly could 0:24:01.080 --> 0:24:04.600 not care less about falsely imprisoning a man field close 0:24:04.640 --> 0:24:08.119 to two decades, like I will mention eight times throughout 0:24:08.160 --> 0:24:10.480 this episode of Finn just being like, I think I 0:24:10.520 --> 0:24:12.119 did my job. I don't know what you want me 0:24:12.200 --> 0:24:15.280 to do, like truly does not care, and we know 0:24:15.320 --> 0:24:17.760 that about him. He goes home to play video games. 0:24:17.840 --> 0:24:19.840 A job is a job, and he wants to sit 0:24:19.880 --> 0:24:20.119 at the. 0:24:20.320 --> 0:24:23.199 Probably have to detach a little bit when you're in 0:24:23.280 --> 0:24:23.960 a job like that. 0:24:24.119 --> 0:24:24.440 I don't know. 0:24:24.480 --> 0:24:30.400 I feel like that's ICE's philosophy, you know, Yeah. 0:24:29.880 --> 0:24:32.880 And then Finn mentions that Ashley was six the last 0:24:32.920 --> 0:24:36.040 time he saw her, so we realized that Finn handled 0:24:36.080 --> 0:24:39.359 this big case. And so she's getting married a child 0:24:39.400 --> 0:24:42.920 bride at twenty six, so that is happening. And they're 0:24:42.920 --> 0:24:45.399 taking Sean out for his birthday tonight. This is a 0:24:45.520 --> 0:24:49.439 very fast and furious relationship and it's the first time 0:24:49.600 --> 0:24:52.320 that he can legally drink, so he's ready to get lit. 0:24:53.119 --> 0:24:56.080 She says have fun, but does not mean it, and 0:24:56.119 --> 0:24:58.280 then says stay safe, and I think she does mean 0:24:58.320 --> 0:25:02.240 that by she I mean but and obviously ominous background 0:25:02.359 --> 0:25:05.320 music plays and we cut to police lights flashing. Finn 0:25:05.320 --> 0:25:08.360 walks in front of the lights, pissed as hell. Melanie 0:25:08.400 --> 0:25:11.320 asked for Finn specifically, so he walks in and a 0:25:11.440 --> 0:25:14.760 uniformed cop explains to Alan's what went down. So the 0:25:14.840 --> 0:25:17.760 mom Melanie was sleeping, she smelled smoke and called it in. 0:25:19.480 --> 0:25:20.160 Her daughter asked. 0:25:20.200 --> 0:25:25.800 She was raped, strangled, stabbed, burned, poured with bleach, Like, 0:25:25.840 --> 0:25:27.000 are you fucking kidding me? 0:25:27.119 --> 0:25:28.119 Before the cold open? 0:25:28.760 --> 0:25:33.280 I all, I, I just am like, and then we 0:25:33.359 --> 0:25:36.400 see her burned hands, which again it's a lot they 0:25:36.560 --> 0:25:39.359 were before the credits, it's a lot. 0:25:39.640 --> 0:25:41.040 So we see the burned hands. 0:25:41.080 --> 0:25:44.880 We get this list and then Melanie, you know, Melanie 0:25:44.880 --> 0:25:46.639 says she came down and found her like this and 0:25:46.680 --> 0:25:48.920 she did hear a man's voice and she says it 0:25:49.040 --> 0:25:53.679 was Sean, So that sucks and they all look very worried. 0:25:54.280 --> 0:25:57.040 Credits and we're back and we're in the hospital and 0:25:57.080 --> 0:25:59.359 Benson is giving a seamless recap to get us on 0:25:59.400 --> 0:26:02.520 the same page. While it looks like a just a 0:26:02.520 --> 0:26:05.359 calm chat, but really she's giving us the lowdown so 0:26:05.359 --> 0:26:08.600 we don't forget anything. Ashley Harper was raped and stabbed 0:26:08.640 --> 0:26:12.840 and Sean Roberts is responsible, So how like we what 0:26:12.880 --> 0:26:15.520 the fuck? Finn says, the mom heard his voice, but 0:26:15.600 --> 0:26:18.040 they all went to dinner, so like were they hanging out? 0:26:18.119 --> 0:26:19.399 Like what fucking happened? 0:26:19.880 --> 0:26:22.280 Rollin says, there is no sign of forced entry, and 0:26:22.320 --> 0:26:25.360 the kitchen knife is missing, and you know they did 0:26:25.520 --> 0:26:28.000 the bleach, did get rid of all the DNA, and 0:26:28.080 --> 0:26:30.040 so now they're going to track down the fiance and 0:26:30.040 --> 0:26:32.360 they're going through all her texts and social media. They're 0:26:32.359 --> 0:26:35.760 really working hard and quick for the case. Benson says, 0:26:35.760 --> 0:26:38.119 we need to be sure about every single detail. She 0:26:38.200 --> 0:26:40.719 does a deep breath, which I understand. This is going 0:26:40.760 --> 0:26:43.400 to be a stressful day. And Cariese's here and they 0:26:43.400 --> 0:26:45.880 need to talk to Sean and Melanie and everyone. Honestly, 0:26:45.920 --> 0:26:49.360 they have to talk to everyone. And you see Benson 0:26:49.440 --> 0:26:55.960 take on like Kragan's traffic police, like crossing guard the energy. 0:26:56.320 --> 0:26:58.920 Finn gets like defensive and he's like, what, I'm off 0:26:58.960 --> 0:27:01.840 the case, and she goes absolutely not. If you step away, 0:27:01.840 --> 0:27:05.280 it looks personal, you're fucking on the case, okay. And 0:27:05.320 --> 0:27:07.640 Benson goes to talk to Miss Harper and she's wet 0:27:07.640 --> 0:27:09.879 in the eyes. The daughter is still in surgery, and 0:27:09.920 --> 0:27:13.040 there's just like it's not good, a lot of blood, 0:27:13.040 --> 0:27:13.719 a lot of burns. 0:27:13.840 --> 0:27:16.639 She's really good in this, like Kelly Williams, like she 0:27:16.920 --> 0:27:19.879 just like is so like we've seen a lot of 0:27:19.880 --> 0:27:22.600 grieving moms. We've seen a lot of this, and I'm 0:27:22.680 --> 0:27:26.959 just she has the perfect like a combination of like 0:27:27.119 --> 0:27:30.119 sadness but also like shock. She's so shocked, like in 0:27:30.160 --> 0:27:33.040 shock from this trauma. And she's really really good in this. 0:27:33.560 --> 0:27:36.160 And you always talk about like the one tear drop dropping, 0:27:36.280 --> 0:27:39.000 but like for this, it's like the wet stays in 0:27:39.040 --> 0:27:41.600 her eyes. Yeah, the whole thing, like it bills and 0:27:41.720 --> 0:27:44.960 doesn't even drop. And you're right, this is a like 0:27:45.880 --> 0:27:49.000 a career defining performance. She just got me. I was like, 0:27:49.119 --> 0:27:52.159 oh my god. Well that's also the worst way to 0:27:52.200 --> 0:27:53.000 find your child. 0:27:53.760 --> 0:27:54.160 Yeah. 0:27:54.280 --> 0:27:56.040 And they also seem like the kind of mother and 0:27:56.119 --> 0:27:58.960 daughter who are like my mom's my best friend, Yeah, 0:27:59.000 --> 0:28:00.879 which I would never say, but I think a lot 0:28:00.880 --> 0:28:01.879 of people do like to say that. 0:28:02.600 --> 0:28:03.040 Yeah. 0:28:03.160 --> 0:28:05.680 And I also I'm with Benson and I don't think 0:28:05.680 --> 0:28:07.480 anyone should have gone out with this convict. 0:28:07.520 --> 0:28:09.920 But whatever, I guess by don to be bygones. 0:28:10.840 --> 0:28:15.200 So Benson, you know, is asking about Sean, and Melanie 0:28:15.200 --> 0:28:18.040 said that she heard them talking around midnight and she 0:28:18.080 --> 0:28:21.560 went to shower and went to sleep, and then so 0:28:21.800 --> 0:28:22.800 they have to talk to Sean. 0:28:22.920 --> 0:28:23.639 So that's all we have. 0:28:23.800 --> 0:28:26.760 Like she didn't see anything, She can't think of anyone 0:28:26.760 --> 0:28:29.760 that would hurt her daughter and especially not her fiance Zach. 0:28:30.720 --> 0:28:33.520 But then she remembers, like, fuck, the engagement ring wasn't there, 0:28:33.640 --> 0:28:35.600 and I think that's why they zoomed in on her 0:28:35.600 --> 0:28:39.120 burned hands to like your shadow. I thought it was 0:28:39.200 --> 0:28:41.320 just to upset us, but I think it's to show 0:28:41.320 --> 0:28:44.080 that the engagement ring wasn't there, So it is very 0:28:44.080 --> 0:28:45.560 smart television making. 0:28:46.280 --> 0:28:48.000 Then we get a doctor to walk in. 0:28:48.040 --> 0:28:49.480 I don't know who he is and I don't care, 0:28:49.600 --> 0:28:52.760 and he just shakes his head no, which means Ashley 0:28:52.880 --> 0:28:55.840 did not make it, so she's dead. This is sad, 0:28:56.840 --> 0:28:59.880 Poor Ashley, Poor Melanie, and Melanie starts full on crying 0:29:00.160 --> 0:29:03.400 the news. Finn and Rawlins go to Sean Roberts's apartment 0:29:03.480 --> 0:29:05.960 and Finn says he has thirty million reasons not to 0:29:06.080 --> 0:29:10.239 leave town, which is alluding to Sean's lawsuit against the state. So, like, 0:29:10.440 --> 0:29:13.040 you know, once you're in prison for sixteen years falsely, 0:29:13.080 --> 0:29:15.960 you can sue people, so he is suing the department 0:29:16.000 --> 0:29:18.760 for like thirty million dollars. He opens the door, he 0:29:18.800 --> 0:29:21.000 seems confused, like why they want to talk, and he 0:29:21.040 --> 0:29:24.200 does not let them inside. They give them the news 0:29:24.280 --> 0:29:27.000 and he looks shocked, Oh my god, what happened? 0:29:27.040 --> 0:29:27.760 Ashley's dead. 0:29:27.840 --> 0:29:30.080 He seems very stressed and he wants to go comfort 0:29:30.160 --> 0:29:32.960 Melanie immediately, and he is put off by them wanting 0:29:33.000 --> 0:29:35.400 to ask him questions like you know, do I need 0:29:35.400 --> 0:29:35.800 a lawyer? 0:29:35.840 --> 0:29:37.800 And Ronin's like, why would you need a lawyer? 0:29:37.840 --> 0:29:40.959 And it's like, are we ignoring he did spend sixteen 0:29:41.000 --> 0:29:41.680 years in prison. 0:29:42.160 --> 0:29:42.480 False. 0:29:42.920 --> 0:29:45.480 This happens throughout the episode where they're like, why is 0:29:45.520 --> 0:29:48.240 he acting like this? Why do you distress the cops? 0:29:48.320 --> 0:29:53.520 What's the problem? Like they are so stupid in this episode, 0:29:55.360 --> 0:29:57.120 And he says something that for some reason, I think 0:29:57.120 --> 0:29:59.280 this is the first time in eighteen seasons someone said that. 0:29:59.320 --> 0:30:01.400 But he does say, anytime you talk to the cops, 0:30:01.440 --> 0:30:03.960 you should have a lawyer, And no one ever has 0:30:03.960 --> 0:30:07.280 said that. No one's ever put it out there like that. Yeah, no, 0:30:07.440 --> 0:30:09.560 put it on a T shirt. They'll ask for one. 0:30:09.640 --> 0:30:11.760 But like that, clearly, it's like, do not talk to 0:30:11.840 --> 0:30:13.040 any fucking cop. 0:30:13.360 --> 0:30:14.080 Yeah. 0:30:14.160 --> 0:30:16.280 He points to Finn and says, you taught me that 0:30:17.080 --> 0:30:19.680 burn Ooh, I learned it from watching you dad. 0:30:21.480 --> 0:30:24.240 He denies being at the house after dinner or at all. 0:30:24.560 --> 0:30:27.040 He says, eleven eleven thirty, he went to a strip 0:30:27.080 --> 0:30:29.400 club and he has a bandage on his hand, so 0:30:29.480 --> 0:30:30.880 roll And says, and you hurt your hand at the 0:30:30.880 --> 0:30:33.720 strip club and he says yes. And then I didn't 0:30:33.760 --> 0:30:35.760 go alone, and I had a fucking friend, So you 0:30:35.840 --> 0:30:38.360 go talk to him. It's my friend Jeff Nichols. And 0:30:38.400 --> 0:30:40.880 he was at the birthday dinner too, So he lets 0:30:40.920 --> 0:30:44.600 them know Hell'sgate Diners where Jeff works, and so and 0:30:44.720 --> 0:30:46.400 he goes, and I need to leave because I need 0:30:46.440 --> 0:30:48.440 to call Melanie and I need to make sure she's okay. 0:30:48.560 --> 0:30:50.360 Go talk to Jeff. Go fuck yourself. 0:30:50.680 --> 0:30:52.880 And it's also like Melanie will not be okay, Like 0:30:52.960 --> 0:30:54.720 there's no there's no need to check out. 0:30:54.880 --> 0:30:57.400 She's doing terrible, but have at it. 0:30:58.040 --> 0:31:01.040 Yeah, Like the closeness is weird, Like she needs me, 0:31:01.280 --> 0:31:04.480 her wrongly convicted rapist, to call her right now in 0:31:04.520 --> 0:31:05.360 her hour of need. 0:31:05.520 --> 0:31:08.720 Like it's just it's weird. Yeah, not her sister best 0:31:08.760 --> 0:31:14.960 friend crying coworker. Yeah, a falsely imprisoned man who like 0:31:15.040 --> 0:31:16.400 within the month they got that closed. 0:31:16.400 --> 0:31:19.200 Because it's not like they were that it was right. 0:31:19.200 --> 0:31:22.600 It's not like they were corresponding. Yeah, yeah, that is 0:31:22.640 --> 0:31:26.040 so true. Finn goes, we're putting on marked car on him. 0:31:26.040 --> 0:31:27.959 I don't give a fuck. Let's stalk him, just in 0:31:27.960 --> 0:31:29.680 case he wants to run. And they go to the 0:31:29.720 --> 0:31:32.600 diner and I do see hash Browns, and that's exciting. 0:31:34.400 --> 0:31:38.000 This chef cook, he has a bandan on and he says, yeah, 0:31:38.000 --> 0:31:40.520 after dinner, we went to the ballet ask the strippers, 0:31:40.560 --> 0:31:44.080 so a real wise guy. I also love seeing the 0:31:44.080 --> 0:31:46.200 papers and schedules on the back wall. I don't know 0:31:46.200 --> 0:31:48.760 if you noticed that, with like four leaf clover magnets 0:31:48.760 --> 0:31:51.840 and pins and so there are some details of this show. 0:31:51.920 --> 0:31:53.600 Really gives me such. 0:31:53.440 --> 0:31:56.440 An appreciation for the crew and all the production designers 0:31:56.440 --> 0:31:57.520 that they Yeah, it would. 0:31:57.320 --> 0:31:59.200 Be fun to talk to a production designer for the 0:31:59.200 --> 0:32:00.600 show too, for sure. 0:32:01.000 --> 0:32:03.240 Yeah, because I you know, I worked at a restaurant 0:32:03.280 --> 0:32:05.959 and I do love sheets on a wall with our 0:32:06.000 --> 0:32:06.880 schedules and rules. 0:32:06.960 --> 0:32:09.480 Yes, I do shut paperwork and like how to stop 0:32:09.520 --> 0:32:12.200 someone from choking in the kitchen and it's like stained 0:32:12.200 --> 0:32:14.000 because it's next to the dishwasher. 0:32:14.200 --> 0:32:14.920 Yeah, totally. 0:32:15.440 --> 0:32:18.880 Yeah, it's so cool to see people's attention to detail 0:32:19.000 --> 0:32:22.560 and be able to appreciate it. And he's not cooperating 0:32:22.600 --> 0:32:24.760 the way like the way that they would like, so 0:32:24.800 --> 0:32:28.320 they threaten him with pearle violations. He finally admits that 0:32:28.320 --> 0:32:30.920 Sean told him to say what he's been saying, and 0:32:31.200 --> 0:32:33.520 you know, obviously you guys try to jam him up 0:32:33.600 --> 0:32:37.840 last time, so he's scared, and Finn looks pissed again. Dude, 0:32:37.960 --> 0:32:41.320 come on, and he turns on his friend quickly. I mean, 0:32:41.360 --> 0:32:43.800 these are jail friends. They don't go a fuck. He says, yeah, 0:32:43.800 --> 0:32:45.280 we were at the strip club, but he didn't come 0:32:45.360 --> 0:32:47.800 until two in the morning. He said Sean would never 0:32:47.920 --> 0:32:50.640 hurt her though he adored Ashley and was always there 0:32:50.680 --> 0:32:53.320 for her. And we also get info that her fiance 0:32:53.520 --> 0:32:56.000 threatened to break up the engagement. So we cut to 0:32:56.040 --> 0:32:58.200 a man in a tan suit, baby blue dress shirt 0:32:58.200 --> 0:33:03.600 and interrogation very easy, sir, prep wedding vibes, and he's 0:33:03.640 --> 0:33:06.320 sad and he did love Ashley a lot, and he asked, 0:33:06.400 --> 0:33:08.760 you know what happened and Rollins goes, well, we we 0:33:08.800 --> 0:33:11.760 wanted you to tell us, and Chrisy asks himone was 0:33:11.800 --> 0:33:13.440 the last time you saw her and he says, right 0:33:13.480 --> 0:33:16.920 before they went to dinner with that convict. He lies 0:33:16.960 --> 0:33:19.520 about them fighting, and Rollins is like, honey, we went 0:33:19.560 --> 0:33:21.680 through her text, so there's no reason of like lying. 0:33:22.000 --> 0:33:24.680 We know that you were fighting. And in the text 0:33:24.760 --> 0:33:26.760 he did ask for the ring back. He says, yeah, 0:33:26.800 --> 0:33:29.080 I was pissed. We made plans and she blew me 0:33:29.160 --> 0:33:31.560 off for Sean and he's like, I get it, but 0:33:31.760 --> 0:33:34.120 it doesn't make the guy a saint. Like, yes, he 0:33:34.200 --> 0:33:37.920 did spend jail like unfairly, but it doesn't make him 0:33:37.960 --> 0:33:40.760 this like amazing fucking human And I'm pissed that I 0:33:40.760 --> 0:33:41.680 got blown off for that. 0:33:42.560 --> 0:33:43.600 But he said he was at a bar. 0:33:43.680 --> 0:33:45.640 He was at the Dakota Bar two blocks away from 0:33:45.640 --> 0:33:48.960 Ashley's house though does not look good, but also his 0:33:49.000 --> 0:33:51.720 apartments right there. And he did say that he was 0:33:51.800 --> 0:33:54.160 at the bar all night except a girl spilled red 0:33:54.160 --> 0:33:55.680 wine on him, so we went home to change and 0:33:55.840 --> 0:33:58.080 came back. And they do not love that at all. 0:33:58.600 --> 0:34:01.200 He says, I didn't kill ash Are you guys crazy? 0:34:01.280 --> 0:34:03.880 I have nothing to do with this, and it cuts 0:34:03.920 --> 0:34:09.600 to Barbara and a corkboard suspects. So far, barges corkboard 0:34:09.719 --> 0:34:13.839 sexual and the suspects are just Sean and Zach. 0:34:13.960 --> 0:34:14.319 So far. 0:34:15.320 --> 0:34:18.520 Rollins is going through Ashley's social media, and she does 0:34:18.560 --> 0:34:21.279 have a lot of male followers, and so they're looking 0:34:21.360 --> 0:34:21.799 at all the. 0:34:22.760 --> 0:34:24.880 I like, actually, if you look at my followers, I 0:34:24.880 --> 0:34:27.480 think I'm like eighty percent women and twenty percent male, 0:34:27.640 --> 0:34:29.120 So like I liked it. If something happened to me, 0:34:29.120 --> 0:34:31.320 they'd be like, she's like mostly female followers, So I 0:34:31.360 --> 0:34:34.000 don't think it's like anything from her social Oh my. 0:34:34.000 --> 0:34:36.000 God, I'm so curious. I want to know. 0:34:37.719 --> 0:34:41.440 So and the timelines are all really tight, so like 0:34:41.480 --> 0:34:44.720 from midnight till nine one one call at one twenty, 0:34:44.920 --> 0:34:47.799 Like there's not much wiggle room in terms of like 0:34:47.880 --> 0:34:51.120 when this could have occurred. And Sean doesn't have an alibi, 0:34:51.160 --> 0:34:54.520 but Zach does. The bartender did confirm the red wine incident, 0:34:55.440 --> 0:34:59.160 also still missing the knife from the kitchen, and Finn 0:34:59.239 --> 0:35:01.880 is just like whatever, it's Sean, and Rollins goes, no, 0:35:02.040 --> 0:35:05.640 there's a Charlie Dopkins in her messages on social media 0:35:05.880 --> 0:35:08.239 and her asking this man to please stop looking in 0:35:08.280 --> 0:35:11.200 her window. So let's go talk to fucking Charlie Hopkins. 0:35:11.920 --> 0:35:15.279 And so it's August sixteenth, let's see what's up in 0:35:15.320 --> 0:35:17.839 the summer summer heat. And they ask a woman coming 0:35:17.840 --> 0:35:20.160 out of an apartment building, and truly, I can't like 0:35:20.239 --> 0:35:22.600 report on her, like do you I don't do you 0:35:22.680 --> 0:35:24.840 have a take on this woman? Like I could not 0:35:25.000 --> 0:35:27.799 get a read on what this character was, but like 0:35:27.880 --> 0:35:31.680 what they wanted to portray or anything, like just I 0:35:31.719 --> 0:35:33.040 am like blacking. 0:35:32.640 --> 0:35:37.120 Out on who you're talking about. Described Yeah that's my point. Oh, okay, 0:35:37.400 --> 0:35:39.279 she's just like a neighbor. But I was like, are 0:35:39.280 --> 0:35:42.319 you doing laundry? Are you sketchy? Or are you a nos? 0:35:42.480 --> 0:35:44.480 Like I could not figure her out. But also it 0:35:44.560 --> 0:35:48.640 is just a quick line. I don't know, I shouldn't whatever. 0:35:49.320 --> 0:35:52.320 This woman does help the detectives out, even though truly 0:35:52.920 --> 0:35:54.480 cannot get a read on her. If you guys have 0:35:54.520 --> 0:35:56.480 any opinions or what you think, maybe this will be 0:35:56.520 --> 0:35:58.000 a fun story. We'll post a photo of her and 0:35:58.040 --> 0:36:01.040 people can write in the comments who they think she 0:36:01.200 --> 0:36:03.160 is and what her backstory is. But she says, go 0:36:03.239 --> 0:36:05.800 check the roof, and Creasey finds a tent with weed 0:36:05.840 --> 0:36:08.640 and pills and hand lotion and tissues and a futon 0:36:08.680 --> 0:36:10.600 mattress with pillows and blankets and. 0:36:12.000 --> 0:36:12.600 Tissues. 0:36:12.760 --> 0:36:16.040 It's like, yeah, disgusting, like spank shack on a roof, 0:36:16.160 --> 0:36:18.319 it's like sough. 0:36:18.320 --> 0:36:21.839 Yeah, and the roof though, like you can see right 0:36:21.880 --> 0:36:25.880 into Ashley's window, so you know they're not they're not 0:36:26.000 --> 0:36:29.879 loving what they're seeing. And then they Creesy says they 0:36:29.880 --> 0:36:34.840 found he found Coney Island whitefish in the tent, Like 0:36:35.080 --> 0:36:37.960 did he have a container of whitefish for bagels? Or 0:36:38.080 --> 0:36:40.760 is this like a code word that I don't know about, 0:36:40.880 --> 0:36:44.279 Like is this cocaine or is this truly whitefish? 0:36:44.440 --> 0:36:45.040 You know what I mean? 0:36:45.640 --> 0:36:49.080 Yeah, but I didn't even know Coney Island made their 0:36:49.120 --> 0:36:50.080 own whitefish. 0:36:50.120 --> 0:36:51.800 Like it was just very confusing. 0:36:51.920 --> 0:36:53.799 Wait, should I google this really quick and see if 0:36:53.800 --> 0:36:55.439 it's like let me just google it, and I think 0:36:55.760 --> 0:37:02.720 Lisa's on it. It's a used condom, used kdom. 0:37:02.760 --> 0:37:05.719 This is huge, This is exciting. 0:37:05.960 --> 0:37:07.239 We got to the bottom of it. 0:37:10.760 --> 0:37:12.880 But the eating whitefish like a bagel, No. 0:37:13.239 --> 0:37:15.800 This is like somebody with like the New York slang 0:37:15.880 --> 0:37:17.400 was in the writer's room and was like, yeah, I 0:37:17.440 --> 0:37:19.960 left the Coney Island Whitefish behind. I guess I don't 0:37:20.000 --> 0:37:22.719 really have a name for a used condom. I'm just like, ew, 0:37:22.760 --> 0:37:25.080 there's a used condom on the floor, like on the ground, 0:37:25.120 --> 0:37:27.319 Like I never have had like a cute nickname for it. 0:37:28.400 --> 0:37:31.560 Yes, so now we know it's Coney Island whitefish is 0:37:31.600 --> 0:37:34.080 a used condom. An Alas does not look happy with 0:37:34.120 --> 0:37:40.160 the news, disgusted, but of course Caresy would say that, 0:37:40.360 --> 0:37:44.239 oh my god, that's so fucking funny after they find 0:37:44.280 --> 0:37:47.760 the used condom, and I feel, as listeners, you should 0:37:47.760 --> 0:37:49.480 be really grateful that we found that out for you, 0:37:49.480 --> 0:37:52.239 because I bet you didn't know, and maybe you guys knew. 0:37:52.239 --> 0:37:53.880 Maybe you're all hip and from stack, I bet you. 0:37:53.920 --> 0:37:56.080 Our comments on this episode are going to be filled 0:37:56.120 --> 0:37:58.600 with like what people call used condoms. They're gonna be like, oh, 0:37:58.640 --> 0:38:00.920 we call that like a yeah, we call that like 0:38:00.920 --> 0:38:04.719 a sad sack from Sunnyside or whatever, like yeah. 0:38:04.840 --> 0:38:05.879 Jesse Bloom. 0:38:07.400 --> 0:38:11.440 And Charlie finally walks in and he sees the cops 0:38:11.440 --> 0:38:13.759 and starts running, and of course it's the classic I 0:38:13.760 --> 0:38:16.560 didn't do anything, and it's like okay, well, and then 0:38:16.680 --> 0:38:19.160 Rollins is holding a bloody knife in her hand and goes, well, 0:38:19.160 --> 0:38:23.120 what's this? So I do love that Benson is now 0:38:23.160 --> 0:38:24.920 talking to the mom of the victim and letting her 0:38:24.960 --> 0:38:28.319 know they found the murder weapon and makeup and hair 0:38:28.360 --> 0:38:30.560 really killed it in terms of like really making her 0:38:30.560 --> 0:38:33.239 look like a grieving woman. And she says they didn't 0:38:33.280 --> 0:38:35.640 know the neighbor boy well but thought he was odd, 0:38:35.719 --> 0:38:38.520 but they didn't think much of it. But they asked 0:38:38.560 --> 0:38:41.120 Melanie to like look through all his junk from the 0:38:41.200 --> 0:38:43.839 tent to see if we find Ashley's stuff in there. 0:38:44.640 --> 0:38:47.120 But we don't have any final answers on if the 0:38:47.360 --> 0:38:49.040 killer is this boy Charlie or not. 0:38:49.440 --> 0:38:51.600 And this boy Charlie is played by a kid named 0:38:51.600 --> 0:38:56.359 Cody Costro, who I recognize from Mayor of Easttown. Okay, yeah, 0:38:56.400 --> 0:38:58.440 I think we're gonna see more. 0:38:58.280 --> 0:38:58.839 From this guy. 0:38:59.760 --> 0:39:03.400 Okay, So this is the beginnings for him, the beginning, Yeah, yeah, 0:39:03.640 --> 0:39:05.160 all right, you heard it here first. 0:39:05.400 --> 0:39:05.680 Yeah. 0:39:06.840 --> 0:39:12.080 So he's an interrogation with Careesy and Rollins and is 0:39:12.120 --> 0:39:14.160 being asked and he keeps me like, can I call 0:39:14.280 --> 0:39:14.680 my mom? 0:39:14.760 --> 0:39:18.160 And they're like, no, he had a bloody knife. 0:39:18.160 --> 0:39:21.919 We're not calling your mom, sir, And did you take 0:39:21.920 --> 0:39:25.240 this photo of Ashley through her window, and he's like, well, yeah, 0:39:25.280 --> 0:39:28.040 she always stood there. She clearly wanted me to see. 0:39:28.400 --> 0:39:29.800 Fucking psycho Incel. 0:39:30.200 --> 0:39:30.640 Yeah, I was. 0:39:30.640 --> 0:39:33.520 Getting Hold in March vibes from him, like immediately, like 0:39:33.760 --> 0:39:36.239 I was like, oh, this guy, I bet he's very nice, 0:39:36.239 --> 0:39:38.400 like the actor that plays Hold in March, but the 0:39:38.480 --> 0:39:39.080 character I know. 0:39:39.160 --> 0:39:41.280 I just remembered we talked a little hold in March 0:39:41.320 --> 0:39:43.080 and so nice. 0:39:43.920 --> 0:39:47.520 God, we talked to such good people. It's really unfair 0:39:47.560 --> 0:39:50.440 to everyone else in the world. Okay, he does have 0:39:50.480 --> 0:39:54.320 a girlfriend named Chavn who told him it was fucked 0:39:54.360 --> 0:39:56.960 up to take pictures of the girl, but he didn't care, 0:39:58.840 --> 0:40:01.279 and they're trying to trick him to more. And so 0:40:01.320 --> 0:40:03.880 then his mother and girlfriend come running into the precinct 0:40:03.960 --> 0:40:06.480 and ask for you know, ask Finn for Charlie, and 0:40:06.600 --> 0:40:08.440 Chavon is wild and it's like, you need to let 0:40:08.520 --> 0:40:11.120 him go now, and I just can't imagine having the 0:40:11.120 --> 0:40:12.839 balls to talk to Iced Tea like. 0:40:12.800 --> 0:40:15.040 That, Like I just I really can't. 0:40:15.760 --> 0:40:18.520 And they say listen, he will confess and agree to 0:40:18.600 --> 0:40:21.640 anything because he has maybe has feel alcohol syndrome. They 0:40:21.640 --> 0:40:24.319 don't really talk about why he's so easily influenced, though 0:40:24.920 --> 0:40:29.160 I don't really get it. Yeah, but it's weird. He 0:40:29.239 --> 0:40:33.240 has some sort of issue where he's a people pleaser 0:40:33.440 --> 0:40:36.359 in a weird way, but they don't diagnose him. 0:40:36.520 --> 0:40:37.239 So I don't know. 0:40:37.760 --> 0:40:41.279 But the girlfriend says he didn't do it. 0:40:41.440 --> 0:40:43.759 I have proof. He was with me all night long. 0:40:44.080 --> 0:40:46.239 So he was having sex with Cheven and they took 0:40:46.239 --> 0:40:49.200 a bunch of videos of themselves fucking with time codes. 0:40:49.239 --> 0:40:52.239 So he's actually like on camera the whole time having 0:40:52.239 --> 0:40:54.799 sex and did not commit the crime. He said he 0:40:54.840 --> 0:40:57.279 picked the knife up off the curb after the killer 0:40:57.400 --> 0:41:00.680 dropped it. So Liv is like, okay, now you're a witness, 0:41:00.760 --> 0:41:03.120 so can we like get some more information, like what 0:41:03.320 --> 0:41:05.480 exactly did you see when? So they're back on the 0:41:05.560 --> 0:41:07.440 roof trying to recreate the drama and get his like 0:41:07.560 --> 0:41:09.920 memory going. He said he saw a white man who 0:41:10.000 --> 0:41:11.880 dropped something in the trash bag, so we went to 0:41:11.920 --> 0:41:14.799 go get it, and Chrasey's like, yay, the knife, we 0:41:14.840 --> 0:41:17.279 already know that. Can you just maybe tell us something new? 0:41:18.200 --> 0:41:20.759 We need you to be sure though. It's a murder investigation, 0:41:20.920 --> 0:41:23.040 so like, can you please be on it? But Amanda 0:41:24.120 --> 0:41:27.160 starts flirting. She can't really help it, so she's begging 0:41:27.239 --> 0:41:30.520 him to focus. Then shows him photos and he's straight 0:41:30.600 --> 0:41:32.399 up is like, I'll do whatever you want. 0:41:32.440 --> 0:41:35.320 You're pretty, Like he's calling Amanda pretty. 0:41:35.360 --> 0:41:37.640 He's so in love with her and they're just showing 0:41:37.719 --> 0:41:38.840 and he goes out live for you. 0:41:38.840 --> 0:41:41.360 I don't give a fuck, like to will this help you? Like, 0:41:41.440 --> 0:41:42.160 tell me what to do. 0:41:42.239 --> 0:41:44.239 I'll say whatever you need, and she goes, no, we 0:41:44.400 --> 0:41:46.200 just need the truth. Just tell us the truth. We 0:41:46.239 --> 0:41:48.839 didn't know games. But she is eye fucking him. So 0:41:49.040 --> 0:41:54.000 it's like what mix messages, very mixed messages, But don't 0:41:54.000 --> 0:41:55.879 say yes if you're not sure, and he says, yes, 0:41:55.960 --> 0:41:58.360 I'm sure it's Sean. I swear that it's Sean. But 0:41:58.560 --> 0:42:01.279 I don't feel like this is reliable. The squad is 0:42:01.320 --> 0:42:04.040 now their full big jacket gear and they're ready to 0:42:04.040 --> 0:42:07.160 pick up Sean. He screams, this is harassment. You need 0:42:07.160 --> 0:42:09.440 a warrant, and they go, yeah, we have a fucking warrant. 0:42:10.280 --> 0:42:13.920 So Finn goes and immediately finds Ashley's diamond ring in 0:42:14.000 --> 0:42:17.359 the kitchen sink drain. Rollins asks him how it got there, 0:42:17.360 --> 0:42:19.200 and he says, I don't know but they arrest his 0:42:19.239 --> 0:42:23.439 ass obviously, and before that they can finish the miranda rights. 0:42:23.480 --> 0:42:26.279 He's like, shut up, I know I was innocnth and 0:42:26.320 --> 0:42:29.600 I'm I said now as they take him away, he's 0:42:29.640 --> 0:42:32.800 an interrogation but alone waiting for his lawyer. 0:42:33.000 --> 0:42:35.120 And who's the lawyer? Buchanan? 0:42:35.239 --> 0:42:40.520 Baby, So you know this motherfucker's guilty. If you're hiring Buchanan, 0:42:40.640 --> 0:42:43.880 you did it. And Benson is like, wow, he swooped 0:42:43.880 --> 0:42:46.000 in fast, and it's like, yeah, that is his job. 0:42:46.040 --> 0:42:48.959 And also, this man did spend sixteen years in jail 0:42:49.000 --> 0:42:51.480 for a crime he didn't commit. Why are we forgetting this? 0:42:52.640 --> 0:42:55.960 But we love Buchanan and Benson and Finn, Phil and Barbara. 0:42:56.239 --> 0:42:57.759 You know, there was blood found on one of his 0:42:57.840 --> 0:43:00.720 shoes in the ring and it's everything by the book, 0:43:01.040 --> 0:43:03.080 and Barbara isn't a purple tie and I don't know 0:43:03.080 --> 0:43:05.160 if we've ever seen that before, and it's not a shirt, 0:43:05.200 --> 0:43:07.120 so I feel like it's appropriate and okay for me 0:43:07.160 --> 0:43:10.359 to mention. And Buchanan's like, honey, the lawsuit price has 0:43:10.480 --> 0:43:13.399 just went up for harassment. And Chrisy says, we found 0:43:13.400 --> 0:43:16.239 the engagement ring in the drain period and stop like, 0:43:16.280 --> 0:43:20.000 what more can you say? And Buchanan accuses Finn of 0:43:20.040 --> 0:43:23.279 framing him and that it's a frame up job. Rolin says, damn, 0:43:23.320 --> 0:43:25.600 I hope you're getting a discount because your lawyer's fucking 0:43:25.719 --> 0:43:29.239 dumb as hell, and Buchanan says Sean is not a 0:43:29.320 --> 0:43:32.600 murder or a rapist and he has never committed a crime. 0:43:33.040 --> 0:43:34.920 Sean then says, you really think I would do that 0:43:34.960 --> 0:43:36.879 to her? She was nice to me. She's the only 0:43:36.960 --> 0:43:39.080 person who's ever been nice to me. She treated me 0:43:39.120 --> 0:43:41.600 like I was normal. And Rollin goes, yeah, and then 0:43:41.600 --> 0:43:43.680 you raped and killed her as a thank you good job, 0:43:43.719 --> 0:43:45.759 And he says, no, I did not. 0:43:46.760 --> 0:43:48.280 I know what it's like to be raped. 0:43:48.320 --> 0:43:50.879 I would never And now we find out a little 0:43:50.880 --> 0:43:53.839 bit more details about him, and he got he went 0:43:53.880 --> 0:43:57.000 to jail at eighteen years old, one hundred and forty pounds. 0:43:57.719 --> 0:44:01.399 Yeah, so that's something to think about. 0:44:02.520 --> 0:44:05.359 But they are taking him back to jail, and that's 0:44:05.400 --> 0:44:07.399 not good in terms of trauma if he was being 0:44:07.480 --> 0:44:11.280 raped since he was eighteen all the time in this jail. 0:44:11.520 --> 0:44:15.200 There should be like weight class jails, Like small people 0:44:15.200 --> 0:44:16.080 all get to go to one. 0:44:16.200 --> 0:44:18.160 Big guys all get to go to one. I don't know, 0:44:18.880 --> 0:44:19.640 I think it would. 0:44:19.480 --> 0:44:22.560 Be I like that idea, but you know, in con Air, 0:44:22.680 --> 0:44:26.320 Steve Buscemi is the tiniest but with the most gear 0:44:26.360 --> 0:44:27.040 on his face. 0:44:28.360 --> 0:44:30.200 You know, I've never seen con Air, but I hear 0:44:30.200 --> 0:44:34.120 what you're saying. Yeah, you never know, because and orange 0:44:34.160 --> 0:44:34.760 is the new black. 0:44:34.840 --> 0:44:38.400 Like sometimes like tiny women were like tough ass bitches, 0:44:38.480 --> 0:44:42.160 you know, So I could see how that would could backfire. 0:44:42.239 --> 0:44:44.440 But I just feel bad when like really young small 0:44:44.640 --> 0:44:45.880 guys go to jail or just. 0:44:45.880 --> 0:44:47.920 See if they didn't commit the crime, yeah, or if 0:44:47.960 --> 0:44:50.200 they did no. I mean, I think law enforcement should 0:44:50.200 --> 0:44:53.959 be better about people getting fully raped under their care. Yeah, 0:44:54.120 --> 0:44:56.800 but that's the world we live in, and it fucking blows. 0:44:57.120 --> 0:44:59.880 But Steve Bmi in con Air, his whole thing is 0:45:00.120 --> 0:45:03.359 like talking about crimes of passions versus crimes of necessities 0:45:03.960 --> 0:45:05.920 and the great to do it out of passion, and 0:45:05.920 --> 0:45:08.160 he goes into this weird thing, and Nicholas Cage is like, 0:45:08.239 --> 0:45:13.440 stop talking to me, but we got to put that 0:45:13.520 --> 0:45:17.239 on the big screen. Let's like do a projector. 0:45:17.280 --> 0:45:20.239 It's a really in my backyard, do it. 0:45:20.120 --> 0:45:25.080 It is like a projector style popcorn blockbuster. 0:45:24.480 --> 0:45:26.879 Of a movie like it is just huge. 0:45:26.920 --> 0:45:29.840 Okay, this is not a Connyer podcast, and I will digress. 0:45:30.880 --> 0:45:34.160 I'm just saying size isn't everything, But I do believe 0:45:34.320 --> 0:45:36.839 that people should not be put in a place where 0:45:36.840 --> 0:45:39.799 they are obviously going to be raped with no repercussions 0:45:39.880 --> 0:45:40.839 or anyone helping them. 0:45:41.480 --> 0:45:42.719 Yeah. 0:45:42.800 --> 0:45:45.400 The detectives in Barba are scared though, that the jury 0:45:45.600 --> 0:45:48.440 is going to buy this frame story, and Barba goes, yeah, 0:45:48.480 --> 0:45:50.319 I mean people are going to feel bad for him, 0:45:50.760 --> 0:45:54.040 and Finn goes, no, it is different this time. Melanie 0:45:54.040 --> 0:45:57.120 walks in and Barbara introduces himself and he was hoping 0:45:57.160 --> 0:46:00.120 it was somebody else, but evidence it is what it is. 0:46:00.160 --> 0:46:03.279 And Benson's like, I'm sure we can't even imagine how 0:46:03.320 --> 0:46:06.760 you're feeling right now, And Finn and Benson and Melanie 0:46:06.800 --> 0:46:09.640 are talking and we see Sean being dragged out handcuffed 0:46:09.640 --> 0:46:12.360 by Chrisy and Rollins is with Buchanan and He's screaming 0:46:12.400 --> 0:46:16.000 at them, you can't do this to me again. Is 0:46:16.040 --> 0:46:18.360 this because I made you look bad because of the lawsuit? 0:46:18.400 --> 0:46:20.720 Please I'll stop. No, no, no no, And then Melanie 0:46:20.760 --> 0:46:23.279 starts crying. It's just like a lot on her, and 0:46:23.280 --> 0:46:25.759 now we're in court. His friend from the strip club 0:46:25.880 --> 0:46:27.600 night is on this Dan saying how he was joking 0:46:27.600 --> 0:46:30.560 around about how Ashley should leave Jack for him, and 0:46:30.640 --> 0:46:33.959 after Ashley was like crying about her fiance and Sean 0:46:34.120 --> 0:46:36.319 was like, I'm gonna be a millionaire, like fuck me, 0:46:36.440 --> 0:46:39.320 I'm gonna get rich, and she was fine and playing along, 0:46:39.360 --> 0:46:41.440 but then he got drunk and he started acting stupid. 0:46:41.560 --> 0:46:44.480 So the women left and didn't really like the way 0:46:44.480 --> 0:46:46.600 he was acting, but that he did feel bad for 0:46:46.640 --> 0:46:48.719 his drunk behavior, so we went back to their house 0:46:48.760 --> 0:46:51.520 to apologize. And then he really liked Ashley and thought 0:46:51.560 --> 0:46:53.359 that she was hot and that she liked him too, 0:46:54.280 --> 0:46:56.279 So is that why he went back like to have 0:46:56.360 --> 0:46:57.840 sex with his crush? 0:46:57.880 --> 0:46:59.560 Like what is this? Like, what's happening? 0:46:59.560 --> 0:47:02.719 And then there's an objection and now it's time for Buchanan, 0:47:02.719 --> 0:47:05.959 who's gonna poke some holes in the testimony, and he's 0:47:06.000 --> 0:47:07.960 such a dick and he's just like, oh, so you're 0:47:07.960 --> 0:47:11.040 a mind reader? Any other magical powers you have? So 0:47:11.120 --> 0:47:14.879 he's laying it on in terms of grease ball, and 0:47:15.400 --> 0:47:17.680 we get a peek at the judge and it's Queen 0:47:17.719 --> 0:47:23.040 Elena Barth love her redhead. That's not the other redhead 0:47:23.120 --> 0:47:27.960 Lewis Lois Louis, Yeah, do you always call her Judge Louis. 0:47:30.320 --> 0:47:33.399 Now on stand is some sort of professional guy and 0:47:33.440 --> 0:47:36.680 he's talking about transitioning as a wrongly convicted inmate to 0:47:36.719 --> 0:47:39.880 a free citizen. And this guy says, it's like pretty 0:47:39.880 --> 0:47:43.160 impossible to do that because you know, you're trying to 0:47:43.160 --> 0:47:46.000 make sense of everything, and it's very trauma inducing. It's 0:47:46.040 --> 0:47:49.239 a lot to suffer, and it's the same kind of 0:47:49.400 --> 0:47:53.480 trauma as people that are veterans of war or torture survivors, 0:47:53.560 --> 0:47:56.759 like a mood debas if you remember that episode from 0:47:56.920 --> 0:48:01.000 season eleven and those who are I cannot believe that 0:48:01.120 --> 0:48:04.439 name just popped into my head, but I'm pretty proud 0:48:04.440 --> 0:48:09.200 of myself and those who were raped a bunch in jail. 0:48:09.239 --> 0:48:11.200 It makes it even harder, and it makes dating hard 0:48:11.280 --> 0:48:14.880 and like you know, it's very easy to misread social 0:48:14.960 --> 0:48:17.560 cues and it makes it hard to deal with rejection. 0:48:17.840 --> 0:48:20.759 So there's just like, obviously a lot happens too when 0:48:20.760 --> 0:48:25.960 you're in jail and wrongly, so expert opinion, wrongfully imprisoned 0:48:26.000 --> 0:48:28.040 then raped, Like, what are the chances he could live 0:48:28.040 --> 0:48:31.360 a normal life and the sky goes impossible and Buchanan 0:48:31.400 --> 0:48:33.360 does the classic we all know what he's about to do. 0:48:33.480 --> 0:48:34.520 Have you ever met my client? 0:48:34.719 --> 0:48:34.799 No? 0:48:35.000 --> 0:48:37.239 Okay, so your expert opinions don't really work with him 0:48:37.239 --> 0:48:39.719 and are based on other people's testimony and are a 0:48:39.719 --> 0:48:46.319 complete waste of time. Yes, And that's that so very 0:48:46.400 --> 0:48:49.680 very complicated case. And we bring in Charlie, who's a mess. 0:48:51.520 --> 0:48:56.200 Rollin says he's not bright. Finn and Barbara I have 0:48:56.200 --> 0:48:58.960 an exchange and Finn just doesn't feel like Barbara trusts 0:48:59.040 --> 0:49:01.880 him or his action, but Barbara's just like, listen, I do, 0:49:02.000 --> 0:49:04.600 but I can't put you on in fin Leaves and 0:49:04.640 --> 0:49:07.120 we're in court, Charlie's talking and I'm like, oh my god, 0:49:07.120 --> 0:49:08.160 Buchanan's gonna. 0:49:08.040 --> 0:49:09.560 Kill your fucking ass. And he does. 0:49:10.640 --> 0:49:13.000 He goes, wow, so you were having fun with your 0:49:13.000 --> 0:49:16.239 girl on the roof. Good for you, lucky guy. And 0:49:16.280 --> 0:49:19.000 then it's like, hey, so you were doing drugs, you 0:49:19.040 --> 0:49:21.600 were drinking, you were fucking it was dead of night, 0:49:21.680 --> 0:49:25.120 you're on a roof and you absolutely saw this man 0:49:25.360 --> 0:49:28.120 like okay, well, and then while he's like talking on 0:49:28.160 --> 0:49:30.480 the stand, he goes well and Detective Rolins and then 0:49:30.480 --> 0:49:33.799 he stops talking, but Buchanan already heard it, so sorry, bro, 0:49:34.160 --> 0:49:36.040 and he goes, wait, what about Detective Rollins? 0:49:36.040 --> 0:49:37.760 And he says, did she tell you to say something? 0:49:37.760 --> 0:49:41.400 And Charlie goes no, And they were like, did she 0:49:41.560 --> 0:49:43.879 encourage you? Like tell us what went down? And he said, 0:49:43.920 --> 0:49:46.000 I got a shoulder pat and I thought she wanted me, 0:49:46.080 --> 0:49:48.760 so I told her what she wanted to hear because 0:49:48.760 --> 0:49:49.920 I got a shoulder pat. 0:49:50.360 --> 0:49:51.520 And he can't. 0:49:52.880 --> 0:49:55.400 And he can't tell if the shoulder pat was like 0:49:55.480 --> 0:49:58.479 before after the fucking was before after a Sean. 0:49:58.560 --> 0:50:00.839 I mean, this kid's a mess. My notes are a mess. 0:50:00.920 --> 0:50:04.360 We're moving on, okay, So I Buchanan asks another question 0:50:04.400 --> 0:50:06.400 and there's like a big pause and Charlie just like 0:50:06.480 --> 0:50:08.759 keeps looking at Rollins, and Buchanan has to go, hey, 0:50:09.160 --> 0:50:11.640 I know Rollins is hot, but you gotta stop looking 0:50:11.680 --> 0:50:15.000 at her and start telling the truth. Look at me, Charlie, 0:50:15.239 --> 0:50:17.160 why did you say what you did? And he said, 0:50:17.200 --> 0:50:19.160 I thought she would like it if I said it was, 0:50:19.360 --> 0:50:22.560 you know, after the fucking So Buchanan's like, so she 0:50:22.640 --> 0:50:25.279 flirted with you to say what she wanted and he says, no, 0:50:25.360 --> 0:50:27.480 I just wanted her to like me, and she needed 0:50:27.520 --> 0:50:28.360 to solve the case. 0:50:28.760 --> 0:50:29.920 And Buchanan's doing. 0:50:29.800 --> 0:50:32.080 A very very good job as a lawyer, but shame 0:50:32.120 --> 0:50:34.280 on them for even putting him on the stands. 0:50:34.360 --> 0:50:37.360 Yeah, Barbara, come on, buddy, I find it hard to 0:50:37.360 --> 0:50:38.440 believe Barbara would have done that. 0:50:38.960 --> 0:50:39.160 Yeah. 0:50:39.200 --> 0:50:41.560 I hope our friend Robert did not write this episode 0:50:41.680 --> 0:50:47.720 because we hate this part. Barbara looks pissed, Benson looks pissed, 0:50:47.800 --> 0:50:49.000 Amanda looks pissed. 0:50:49.120 --> 0:50:50.000 Commercial break. 0:50:50.520 --> 0:50:54.120 Now we're back and Barba's screaming at the detectives like 0:50:54.200 --> 0:50:56.880 the principal is mad and he's letting these bad. 0:50:56.719 --> 0:50:58.560 Bad students know that he is pissed. 0:50:59.000 --> 0:51:02.480 Amanda is like, relax, and he goes no, and then 0:51:02.960 --> 0:51:07.080 and they all just are not understanding the gravity of 0:51:07.120 --> 0:51:10.040 the situation. And then Amanda let it slip, like, how 0:51:10.120 --> 0:51:12.000 is it my fault? This kid had a crush on me? 0:51:12.360 --> 0:51:15.520 And Benson turns to her like, wait, you knew the 0:51:15.600 --> 0:51:18.400 kid had a crush on you. And Cariese starts defending 0:51:18.440 --> 0:51:21.000 his woman and you know, the future mother of his 0:51:21.040 --> 0:51:25.560 step kids, and he goes, hey, you stop that. I 0:51:25.719 --> 0:51:27.680 was there, and Barbara goes, shut the fuck up. I 0:51:27.800 --> 0:51:30.920 making excuses for her, and Kries turns it on Barbara 0:51:30.960 --> 0:51:33.000 and goes, it is not my fault that bu Can 0:51:33.120 --> 0:51:35.879 and fucking spun that shit and you couldn't do your job, 0:51:36.160 --> 0:51:39.480 and Benson goes, okay, okay, we're done, let's stop. So 0:51:39.520 --> 0:51:42.000 she's defending her number one man, Barbara. So there's just 0:51:42.040 --> 0:51:45.040 like a lot of you know, jets versus sharks? Is 0:51:45.040 --> 0:51:47.880 that a reference? Barbara says like, we're not going to 0:51:47.920 --> 0:51:50.000 get a conviction with what has happened so far, so 0:51:50.040 --> 0:51:52.360 we really do need physical evidence. But how are we 0:51:52.400 --> 0:51:54.400 going to get this evidence? So we're back in court 0:51:54.719 --> 0:51:56.719 and Finn's on the stand giving the play by play 0:51:56.719 --> 0:51:59.640 of his search at Sean's apartment and Barba asks about 0:51:59.640 --> 0:52:02.759 the ground with a defendant and he says, well, yeah, 0:52:02.880 --> 0:52:05.160 now that he killed Ashley, and you know, of course 0:52:05.200 --> 0:52:09.000 an objection and it is sustained, and then Finn adds, 0:52:09.000 --> 0:52:11.080 if anything, I was rooting for the guy when he 0:52:11.120 --> 0:52:14.680 got out, no grudges. And now it's Buchanan's turn at Finn, 0:52:15.239 --> 0:52:17.080 and he's like, are you embarrassed? This is okay, this 0:52:17.160 --> 0:52:20.320 is what I'm like, Finn, come on. So Buchanan's like 0:52:20.360 --> 0:52:22.400 are you embarrassed about putting an innocent man in prison 0:52:22.440 --> 0:52:24.600 for sixteen years? And he goes, nope, I didn't put 0:52:24.680 --> 0:52:27.759 him there. I just arrested him and he just did 0:52:27.800 --> 0:52:29.480 his job. And it is the way it is, and 0:52:29.520 --> 0:52:35.680 that is wild, but it's true, but is wild. And 0:52:36.000 --> 0:52:38.440 Buchanan just comes for his ass. He's like, you know, 0:52:38.600 --> 0:52:41.040 would you feel better now if he's found guilty, so 0:52:41.080 --> 0:52:43.319 then all of your reputations will be vindicated that he 0:52:43.400 --> 0:52:46.480 is an actual criminal. And I says, like, shut shut up, 0:52:46.600 --> 0:52:48.560 like I said, I did my job then and I 0:52:48.600 --> 0:52:50.920 did my job now, and he goes, you mean framing 0:52:50.960 --> 0:52:55.760 Sean Roberts again, Barba objection Benson with a dirty stare 0:52:55.800 --> 0:52:58.720 at Buchanan. And now we're at a hot dog stand 0:52:58.760 --> 0:53:01.560 where Finn isn't a he's looking fly as he Honestly, 0:53:01.600 --> 0:53:03.680 I think this is the sexiest he's ever looked. He 0:53:03.719 --> 0:53:06.760 has sunglasses on, like a really nice blue fitted suit 0:53:06.840 --> 0:53:08.640 like I was just like okay, Coco, like. 0:53:10.360 --> 0:53:11.480 I was really happy about this. 0:53:11.520 --> 0:53:14.040 And he's talking to Melanie and he's telling her like 0:53:14.160 --> 0:53:16.120 this guy is guilty and we will get him, and 0:53:16.160 --> 0:53:18.120 she goes stop. I don't know if it's true, like 0:53:18.160 --> 0:53:21.640 nobody really knows. And she's like, we're all just guessing 0:53:21.640 --> 0:53:24.200 and connecting the dots, and Finn is like I found 0:53:24.320 --> 0:53:28.120 as she's ring in his drain, come on, and she, 0:53:28.200 --> 0:53:30.960 of course is just questioning herself with what happened last time, 0:53:31.080 --> 0:53:33.320 and she doesn't know what to think and Fin leans 0:53:33.360 --> 0:53:35.680 in and goes, did you hear his voice or not? 0:53:36.360 --> 0:53:38.920 Melanie then says I'm not sure now, and he goes, 0:53:38.960 --> 0:53:40.920 but you said it at the crime scene. You just 0:53:40.960 --> 0:53:43.799 have to tell the truth. You don't have to convict him. 0:53:43.880 --> 0:53:46.160 The jury decides all you have to do is say 0:53:46.160 --> 0:53:49.120 the truth. And she is scared what if she's wrong again? 0:53:49.200 --> 0:53:51.440 And we cut to Barbara and he's like, what do 0:53:51.480 --> 0:53:55.040 you mean she won't testify and Finn goes, yeah, she's 0:53:55.080 --> 0:53:57.200 not sure anymore. What do you want? And he goes, 0:53:57.239 --> 0:53:59.759 what the fuck did you say? They're just fighting. This 0:53:59.800 --> 0:54:03.440 is a really heated episode with the inner office politics. 0:54:03.480 --> 0:54:04.560 I would say, I. 0:54:04.480 --> 0:54:06.840 Don't think there was a fun drink at the dark 0:54:07.040 --> 0:54:08.960 Mahogany bar after this, you know. 0:54:09.040 --> 0:54:11.680 No trips to the cop bar here. 0:54:12.719 --> 0:54:15.920 And we had a Ada at our Denver Live show 0:54:16.600 --> 0:54:20.480 and not an Ada, A detective and I asked him 0:54:20.800 --> 0:54:24.160 like Ada's and detectives like, are they friends? And he goes, 0:54:24.200 --> 0:54:27.279 they're a team because here they're always fighting and I 0:54:27.320 --> 0:54:28.160 need more evidence. 0:54:28.200 --> 0:54:30.880 Go fuck yourself. But they do love each other. I 0:54:30.880 --> 0:54:33.480 mean they do, but there's some love there is. 0:54:33.560 --> 0:54:36.000 But I did like hearing the real detective shout out 0:54:36.040 --> 0:54:38.040 to you being like, oh, we're a team. 0:54:38.120 --> 0:54:38.959 I mean he looked. 0:54:39.000 --> 0:54:41.319 I feel like he glowed when he said, like how 0:54:41.360 --> 0:54:46.200 much he loves his lawyers that he works with. Yeah, 0:54:46.360 --> 0:54:50.000 Benson does defend fit though, and you know, like he 0:54:50.160 --> 0:54:52.279 was trying to help. And Barbara goes, whatever she has 0:54:52.320 --> 0:54:54.000 to testify, I don't give a shit, and if she's 0:54:54.000 --> 0:54:56.360 a hostile witness, I don't care. We're getting justice with 0:54:56.440 --> 0:54:59.279 or without her cooperation. And she's on the stand going, 0:54:59.320 --> 0:55:01.560 I don't want to do this your honor, And Barbara 0:55:01.600 --> 0:55:04.360 go's permission to treat this witness's hostile please, And the 0:55:04.400 --> 0:55:07.000 judge is like, miss Harper, you must answer the questions, 0:55:07.360 --> 0:55:11.000 and Barba goes, did you hear his voice right? She's like, well, 0:55:11.040 --> 0:55:14.160 I'm not sure now, but you were sure. But she says, 0:55:14.200 --> 0:55:16.520 I don't think Sean would kill Ashley. He cared for her, 0:55:16.560 --> 0:55:18.600 and his whole life was ahead of him. And Barbara 0:55:18.719 --> 0:55:20.799 keeps nailing her, like you heard his voice, you heard 0:55:20.840 --> 0:55:23.040 his voice, and she goes yes, but and her tan 0:55:23.200 --> 0:55:24.920 is really cute too, Like I do wonder if she 0:55:25.000 --> 0:55:27.400 was in the Bahamas before this taping or like she 0:55:27.440 --> 0:55:30.920 has a good Colt persen a like makeup choice, but 0:55:31.000 --> 0:55:34.040 she does have a tan like that she was just 0:55:34.640 --> 0:55:38.160 in the Hamptons or something. She then says what I 0:55:38.239 --> 0:55:41.000 did to Sean was unforgivable. I told the jury he 0:55:41.040 --> 0:55:42.879 did it and I was wrong. And he's like, that's 0:55:42.880 --> 0:55:46.359 why you're hesitating, right, And Barbara really like spins some 0:55:46.440 --> 0:55:49.080 movie magic here, and Barbara says, you blame yourself for 0:55:49.120 --> 0:55:51.880 your daughter's death. Right, you sent this man to prison. 0:55:52.080 --> 0:55:53.960 That's where he learned to be a killer and a rapist. 0:55:54.239 --> 0:55:55.960 So if you didn't make that false, I d he 0:55:56.000 --> 0:55:57.880 would not have gone to prison and then come out 0:55:57.960 --> 0:56:00.680 and killed your daughter. And if he called her, then 0:56:00.719 --> 0:56:03.319 you killed her. And it's too painful to accept, and 0:56:03.360 --> 0:56:05.600 that's why you don't want to testify. And she starts 0:56:05.640 --> 0:56:08.680 crying on the stand. She said, you know I sent 0:56:08.760 --> 0:56:10.799 him there, and every time he was beaten or raped 0:56:10.840 --> 0:56:12.960 it's my fault and I turned him into a monster 0:56:13.080 --> 0:56:15.279 and it was my fault. I'm the guilty one here, 0:56:15.680 --> 0:56:18.279 and Barbwa goes for you to feel this guilty. You 0:56:18.400 --> 0:56:21.520 obviously think he killed your daughter, which means you're certain 0:56:21.640 --> 0:56:23.080 you heard his voice around midnight? 0:56:23.160 --> 0:56:23.600 Correct? 0:56:23.680 --> 0:56:26.400 And she says yes with tears in her face. Buchanan 0:56:26.440 --> 0:56:29.440 looks defeated. Sean looks like he feels something, but I 0:56:29.440 --> 0:56:32.120 can't put a name on it, Like do you did 0:56:32.120 --> 0:56:33.160 you identify a feeling? 0:56:33.600 --> 0:56:34.080 Yeah. 0:56:34.680 --> 0:56:36.919 Barbara and Benson are in the hallway and Buchanan comes 0:56:36.960 --> 0:56:38.719 up to them and says, I'm ready to discuss the 0:56:38.760 --> 0:56:41.000 plea and Barbara goes too late, bitch, and he says, well, 0:56:41.040 --> 0:56:44.040 plead guilty to manslaughter. Barbara does not like that because 0:56:44.040 --> 0:56:46.960 that's only five years for like a brutal rape and murder. 0:56:47.560 --> 0:56:51.440 But you know he already's spent sixteen, so sixteen and 0:56:51.520 --> 0:56:52.439 five is twenty one. 0:56:52.520 --> 0:56:54.040 But can you serve backwards time? 0:56:54.160 --> 0:56:55.640 Like I don't really know if I have an opinion 0:56:55.640 --> 0:56:57.520 on this, Like I see both of their points of view. 0:56:58.200 --> 0:57:00.920 Barba says, if you murder too, you serve a minimum 0:57:00.960 --> 0:57:03.400 of fifteen and Buchanan says done. So I guess that 0:57:03.440 --> 0:57:07.080 little game that Barbara played really made an impact that 0:57:07.120 --> 0:57:10.600 Buchanan is down to make a fifteen year deal. Benson goes, 0:57:10.840 --> 0:57:14.319 but we need him to allocute and let everyone know 0:57:14.400 --> 0:57:16.360 we got it right this time. So now it's time 0:57:16.400 --> 0:57:21.080 for the plea and allocution and Melanie, you know, he says, Melanie, 0:57:21.080 --> 0:57:23.760 I'm so so sorry. I know how much you loved Ashley, 0:57:23.800 --> 0:57:25.720 but I cared for her too. She gave me hope 0:57:25.760 --> 0:57:27.720 I can start over, and she wasn't afraid to be 0:57:27.760 --> 0:57:29.960 alone with me and didn't look at me like I 0:57:30.000 --> 0:57:32.440 was dirt like everyone else. So then I proved her wrong, 0:57:32.560 --> 0:57:35.280 Like what the fuck is wrong with you? I mean, 0:57:35.280 --> 0:57:37.480 we know what's wrong with him. Okay, so he says, 0:57:37.560 --> 0:57:39.680 but that night, I was drunk and I wasn't used 0:57:39.720 --> 0:57:41.520 to that, and I went to talk to her and 0:57:41.520 --> 0:57:43.080 to say I was sorry for how I acted at 0:57:43.080 --> 0:57:45.400 dinner and told her how much you know, I liked her, 0:57:45.440 --> 0:57:48.080 and she laughed. And you know, we know this. You 0:57:48.080 --> 0:57:51.040 can't laugh at a man. You might be murdered. So yeah, 0:57:51.160 --> 0:57:53.040 laugh at a man, he will burn you to death. 0:57:53.120 --> 0:57:56.000 So Melanie's there's like a phrase that's like men are 0:57:56.040 --> 0:57:57.320 scared that women will laugh at them. 0:57:57.320 --> 0:57:58.840 Women are scared that men will kill them. 0:57:59.120 --> 0:57:59.360 Yeah. 0:57:59.720 --> 0:58:04.000 Yeah, that's exactly it. Yeah, that's the saying. That's it. Yeah, 0:58:04.040 --> 0:58:07.800 that's like on first dates, like men's fears or that. 0:58:08.040 --> 0:58:11.959 But Melanie's crying and he said, you can't let people 0:58:12.040 --> 0:58:13.840 laugh at you. I learned that in prison, and that 0:58:13.920 --> 0:58:17.600 I understand because I like watching youtubes of women who've 0:58:17.640 --> 0:58:20.120 been to prison, and they do like little videos like 0:58:20.480 --> 0:58:22.960 how we're just the New Black isn't like real prison, 0:58:23.120 --> 0:58:26.040 or like top ten rules you must follow. And one 0:58:26.040 --> 0:58:27.840 of them said, like, I think I talked about this 0:58:27.880 --> 0:58:31.080 on the podcast, but like if someone budges you in line, 0:58:31.200 --> 0:58:33.400 it might seem chill, but like you need to fucking 0:58:33.480 --> 0:58:35.800 stand your ground and teach them a lesson because all 0:58:35.880 --> 0:58:37.960 jail is his lines. And so once people know they 0:58:37.960 --> 0:58:39.400 could cut you in line, they're gonna keep. 0:58:39.240 --> 0:58:39.959 Cutting you in line. 0:58:40.080 --> 0:58:43.440 Yeah, And so I understand what he's saying that in prison, 0:58:43.480 --> 0:58:45.080 like if someone laughs to you, you need to show 0:58:45.120 --> 0:58:45.880 him whose boss? 0:58:46.120 --> 0:58:49.440 And so I get where that comes from. Yeah, but 0:58:49.800 --> 0:58:53.280 his version of showing whose boss was over the top. Yeah. 0:58:53.280 --> 0:59:01.600 I'm not defending Sean, I'm just talking about yeah, the programs, Yeah, 0:59:01.800 --> 0:59:04.760 in jail and being drunk without drink. I mean, it's 0:59:05.000 --> 0:59:08.600 just fuck you though, But like he should have confessed immediately, 0:59:08.640 --> 0:59:10.360 like to put Melanie through it, like you are a 0:59:10.400 --> 0:59:13.160 monster and you do deserve to be in jail or not. 0:59:13.560 --> 0:59:15.720 This is a lot And it's like what I always 0:59:15.720 --> 0:59:18.320 say about, like where did you learn the acting skills 0:59:18.400 --> 0:59:19.000 in jail? 0:59:19.040 --> 0:59:21.480 Like he was like, you know, I feel like you'd 0:59:21.480 --> 0:59:23.600 be like it wasn't me, It wasn't me. But these 0:59:23.640 --> 0:59:24.160 guys are. 0:59:24.040 --> 0:59:27.680 Like what it wasn't like I gotta go call Melanie, 0:59:27.680 --> 0:59:30.560 like you were like putting on this full act that 0:59:30.600 --> 0:59:33.720 you're like this dear family friend instead of just being 0:59:33.760 --> 0:59:35.080 like now, you guys got the wrong guy. 0:59:35.200 --> 0:59:35.640 Like I don't know. 0:59:35.680 --> 0:59:38.600 It's just funny where they learn the acting skills? 0:59:39.280 --> 0:59:42.880 Yeah, like maybe Sean Williams Scott not Sean Williams, Scott 0:59:42.880 --> 0:59:45.640 Scott Winter Peters. What the fuck is our guest's name, 0:59:46.640 --> 0:59:52.520 Scott william Winter William Winters. Yeah, maybe he went over 0:59:52.560 --> 0:59:56.640 there to teach an acting class. So that is very 0:59:56.640 --> 1:00:01.080 inside for only people that have SI. I can't I 1:00:01.120 --> 1:00:08.920 can't even talk about that reference. He goes things happened 1:00:08.960 --> 1:00:10.920 to me, and I swore I wouldn't do it to others, 1:00:10.960 --> 1:00:12.720 but I did it to Ashley, and I didn't want to. 1:00:12.760 --> 1:00:14.960 It just happened. And Melanie runs out of the courtroom. 1:00:15.000 --> 1:00:18.200 Benson follows her. Buchanan has the wet eyes. Did you 1:00:18.280 --> 1:00:20.320 notice Buchanan had like tears in his eyes? 1:00:20.400 --> 1:00:20.560 Oh? 1:00:20.640 --> 1:00:23.440 No, and anger, but I've never seen it before, but 1:00:23.480 --> 1:00:26.080 he had like weld up waiting tears in his eyes. 1:00:26.360 --> 1:00:27.600 Will yeah. 1:00:27.680 --> 1:00:30.360 I actually I rerounded it a few times because I'd 1:00:30.400 --> 1:00:34.040 never seen him with that much emotion in terms of crying. 1:00:34.120 --> 1:00:38.280 We've seen him be a dick to rape victims. Benson 1:00:38.320 --> 1:00:41.280 stops Melanie outside. I'm sorry, she says, and she says, 1:00:41.280 --> 1:00:43.120 I know, and at least I know he did it 1:00:43.160 --> 1:00:45.960 this time. And Benson says, it's not your fault. And 1:00:46.000 --> 1:00:48.200 she says, then whose is it? And she walks down 1:00:48.240 --> 1:00:51.320 the stairs and her life's gonna be bad for talking trauma. 1:00:51.520 --> 1:00:55.400 She might have it now, joins Olivia. He's wearing sunglasses, 1:00:55.520 --> 1:00:58.240 he says, bad guy goes down. That's all that matters. 1:00:58.320 --> 1:01:01.160 And it's like, okay, go home and play video games. 1:01:01.160 --> 1:01:03.800 You're doing the shit out of me today, and Benson says, 1:01:03.800 --> 1:01:06.800 if you ever feel like talking, and he says talking's overrated. 1:01:07.640 --> 1:01:11.560 Barbara then walks into replace Finn and says justice sure 1:01:11.640 --> 1:01:14.960 isn't pretty some days, and Benson says, well, sure as 1:01:14.960 --> 1:01:22.600 hell was ugly this time, and that's dick wolf baby. Yeah, yikers, 1:01:22.960 --> 1:01:27.000 I do love a Benson Barba ending yeah on the 1:01:27.080 --> 1:01:30.200 court steps. That's not the first time, and episodes ended 1:01:30.240 --> 1:01:34.200 that way won't be the last. Okay, take us through 1:01:34.240 --> 1:01:37.120 this giant crime because I know it was like this 1:01:37.280 --> 1:01:39.720 was like the Jinks and Making a Murderer kind of 1:01:39.720 --> 1:01:43.520 were like the big I think crime docuseries that created 1:01:43.600 --> 1:01:49.040 this snowball effect in populiarity and growing, and I avoided 1:01:49.080 --> 1:01:50.880 it for some reason, like the plague. 1:01:50.920 --> 1:01:53.920 So I know nothing. Can't wait, can't wait, We'll be 1:01:54.000 --> 1:01:54.360 right back. 1:01:54.400 --> 1:02:10.400 After a word from our sponsors, we are back and 1:02:10.440 --> 1:02:15.120 we are diving into this massive true crime. This episode 1:02:15.160 --> 1:02:18.680 aired in September of twenty sixteen, which is about nine 1:02:18.680 --> 1:02:22.960 months after Making a Murderer a docuseries premiered on Netflix 1:02:23.000 --> 1:02:26.800 and took the world by storm. I mean I was obsessed. 1:02:26.840 --> 1:02:28.960 I watched the whole thing through and then I remember 1:02:28.960 --> 1:02:31.680 I took Jared home to my house for Christmas, and 1:02:32.840 --> 1:02:35.800 let's see, we were already married, but we went home 1:02:35.840 --> 1:02:39.160 for Christmas that year and we just watched it again 1:02:39.280 --> 1:02:41.480 and he was like, you guys are absolutely ill, like 1:02:41.560 --> 1:02:43.120 what is going on? Like he could not believe that 1:02:43.160 --> 1:02:46.480 my family just sat around on Christmas and rewatched like 1:02:46.520 --> 1:02:47.640 a killer documentary. 1:02:48.160 --> 1:02:51.080 And you know, we just that's what we enjoy. 1:02:51.160 --> 1:02:53.440 My sister and I have also famously listened to serial 1:02:53.480 --> 1:02:56.440 podcast twice through on road trips together, like we just 1:02:56.520 --> 1:03:00.560 love murder as a family. So this docu series was 1:03:00.560 --> 1:03:03.760 filmed over the course of ten years. It's very like 1:03:04.000 --> 1:03:08.400 they were very embedded with these people. Yes, and I'm 1:03:08.440 --> 1:03:09.760 just really excited to be able to share with you 1:03:09.800 --> 1:03:11.760 because I don't think you know anything about it, right. 1:03:11.960 --> 1:03:13.280 No, Yeah, Okay. 1:03:13.840 --> 1:03:19.760 So the story starts in nineteen eighty five in Wisconsin. 1:03:20.160 --> 1:03:25.120 Penny Pearnsten was jogging along Lake Michigan and was attacked. 1:03:25.160 --> 1:03:28.440 She was dragged into the woods and sexually assaulted. She 1:03:28.640 --> 1:03:34.919 identified Stephen Avery, a Wisconsin man aged twenty two, as 1:03:34.960 --> 1:03:38.080 her attacker in a lineup and from a photo, even 1:03:38.160 --> 1:03:41.360 though he had an alibi and a timestamped receipt and 1:03:41.400 --> 1:03:44.880 sixty nine witnesses that put him miles away from this assault. 1:03:45.520 --> 1:03:48.880 So he gets convicted and he goes to jail much 1:03:48.920 --> 1:03:51.920 like in the episode for you know, raping this woman, 1:03:52.680 --> 1:03:56.760 and he was in jail for eighteen years, and even 1:03:56.800 --> 1:03:59.560 in nineteen ninety five. This like makes me very annoyed 1:03:59.600 --> 1:04:02.600 at life, you know, the legal system, you know, in 1:04:03.680 --> 1:04:06.000 just the way this went down, like in nineteen ninety five. 1:04:06.120 --> 1:04:08.640 So ten years into his sentence, a detective in another 1:04:08.680 --> 1:04:11.120 county said that an inmate was talking about how he 1:04:11.200 --> 1:04:14.240 had committed a crime in Manitouwac County, which is where 1:04:14.280 --> 1:04:18.080 this took place, and that someone else was in jail 1:04:18.120 --> 1:04:21.000 for the crime, and he got in touch with Manitauc sheriff, 1:04:21.560 --> 1:04:24.240 a sheriff deputy I think named Thomas Kokoric and who 1:04:24.280 --> 1:04:27.360 told them, quote, we already have the right guy, don't 1:04:27.360 --> 1:04:30.880 concern yourself with it. And then he served eighteen years 1:04:30.920 --> 1:04:33.840 in prison, and the Innocence Project of Wisconsin helped to 1:04:33.840 --> 1:04:39.919 clear his name, and sure enough, DNA evidence completely exonerated 1:04:39.960 --> 1:04:43.400 him and pointed to another man whose name was Gregory Allen, 1:04:43.720 --> 1:04:47.520 who looked pretty much exactly like Stephen and had a 1:04:47.600 --> 1:04:49.919 history of assaults against women. The cops had an eye 1:04:50.000 --> 1:04:53.400 on him, and yet they never showed a picture of 1:04:53.400 --> 1:04:55.160 this man to the victim. They never put this man 1:04:55.200 --> 1:04:57.440 into a lineup the way that Stephen was. 1:04:57.960 --> 1:04:58.840 And was this the. 1:04:58.800 --> 1:05:03.840 Man Gregory Allen in jail in Manatoc and he was 1:05:03.880 --> 1:05:07.120 in a different county, But I think so, I think so. Yes, 1:05:07.200 --> 1:05:08.919 this article did not make it clear because I asked 1:05:08.920 --> 1:05:11.320 myself the same question, But I'm pretty sure, yes, so 1:05:11.480 --> 1:05:13.120 is this guy Gregory Allen, who Yes, he had been 1:05:13.160 --> 1:05:16.000 incarcerated for other crimes against women, like he was known 1:05:16.200 --> 1:05:19.800 as like a predator, and so yeah, he went to 1:05:19.880 --> 1:05:21.920 jail in nineteen eighty five, and he got released in 1:05:21.920 --> 1:05:24.280 two thousand and three. And of course, much like in 1:05:24.320 --> 1:05:26.919 the episode of SVU, he promptly filed a civil suit 1:05:26.920 --> 1:05:29.560 against Manituac County for thirty six million dollars for his 1:05:29.600 --> 1:05:34.880 wrongful conviction. And you know, the Avery family, I wouldn't 1:05:34.960 --> 1:05:39.200 say was beloved. They were kind of they're sort of 1:05:39.280 --> 1:05:43.960 like rural people, not very educated. They a lot of 1:05:43.960 --> 1:05:45.880 them got in trouble with the law, like Steven had 1:05:45.920 --> 1:05:48.720 already been in trouble for burglarizing a bar and other things. 1:05:49.480 --> 1:05:51.720 They the law enforcement in the town seemed to like 1:05:51.760 --> 1:05:54.600 have it out for the family. Steven, I'm going to 1:05:54.640 --> 1:05:57.120 give a trigger warning right now for our cat lovers 1:05:57.120 --> 1:05:59.000 out there. You're gonna want to do a flast forward 1:05:59.000 --> 1:06:01.000 thirty seconds maybe a minute on this one. 1:06:01.320 --> 1:06:05.160 And Lisa is gonna jet from this taping. Yeah, she's 1:06:05.240 --> 1:06:06.120 not sticking around. 1:06:07.320 --> 1:06:10.920 He did get a convicted of animal cruelty for dousing 1:06:11.000 --> 1:06:13.360 a cat and gasoline and throwing it into a bonfire 1:06:14.560 --> 1:06:16.840 and just like watching it burn. So he you know, 1:06:17.160 --> 1:06:21.280 it's he had some criminal tendencies of cruelty and he 1:06:21.320 --> 1:06:23.440 also tried to run a sheriff's wife off the road 1:06:23.480 --> 1:06:26.240 in his car. His older brother was charged and later 1:06:26.240 --> 1:06:29.720 acquitted for sexual assault, but also for domestic violence against 1:06:29.720 --> 1:06:32.200 his wife, and later was charged with sexual assault of 1:06:32.200 --> 1:06:35.560 a child, but pleaded no contest to fourth degree sexual 1:06:35.600 --> 1:06:37.920 assault and battery and spent only forty five days in 1:06:38.000 --> 1:06:40.600 jail and three years on probation for that charge. I 1:06:40.600 --> 1:06:43.520 don't there's not more information on this, but the family 1:06:43.640 --> 1:06:47.280 is not great. Yeah, oh so, I'm sorry. The older 1:06:47.280 --> 1:06:49.560 brother was the sexual assault case that was acquitted. The 1:06:49.640 --> 1:06:51.840 younger brother was the or the other charges. I said, 1:06:51.840 --> 1:06:54.800 so both of his brothers have all these issues and 1:06:54.880 --> 1:06:58.520 so as they illustrate in this episode, it was very 1:06:58.560 --> 1:07:00.320 hard for Steven when he got out of prison. He 1:07:00.400 --> 1:07:03.240 was depressed, he was frustrated, he got into he was 1:07:03.240 --> 1:07:04.880 getting in a lot of fights with his family over 1:07:04.920 --> 1:07:07.200 the family business. They had a salvage yard, like an 1:07:07.280 --> 1:07:08.480 auto salvage yard. 1:07:09.520 --> 1:07:11.720 See I knew nothing about it, but I did sense 1:07:11.760 --> 1:07:12.760 salvage yard vibes. 1:07:12.840 --> 1:07:15.720 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, And like I think that's kind 1:07:15.720 --> 1:07:19.160 of like part of what people sort of liked gawking 1:07:19.240 --> 1:07:23.240 at in the documentary series was like, oh yeah, these 1:07:23.320 --> 1:07:26.600 like yocal kind of Wisconsin people that have like really 1:07:26.640 --> 1:07:29.400 thick accents and like have a salvage yard. You know, 1:07:29.480 --> 1:07:32.880 it's like they're just regular people. But you know, I 1:07:32.920 --> 1:07:35.440 think that was a lot of making fun of the accents, 1:07:35.520 --> 1:07:38.560 making fun of the like you know, rural ness of 1:07:38.600 --> 1:07:41.440 it was part of the I feel like the virality 1:07:41.560 --> 1:07:46.120 of that docuseries. So anyway, yeah, his life was frustrating 1:07:46.120 --> 1:07:48.520 when he got out of prison. He had was fighting 1:07:48.520 --> 1:07:50.680 with his family over the business. He got divorced, his 1:07:50.760 --> 1:07:54.560 relationship with his kids basically disappeared. But his family did 1:07:54.560 --> 1:07:57.480 say that you know, a couple of years later, things 1:07:57.480 --> 1:08:00.840 were turning around for him. He had a new girlfriend 1:08:00.920 --> 1:08:03.480 named Jody Stakowski. That's like another thing I remember from 1:08:03.480 --> 1:08:06.240 the like from the show. He'd be like, Jody, I'm 1:08:06.240 --> 1:08:07.959 gonna buy you a jet ski, like you know, people 1:08:07.960 --> 1:08:11.040 would like quote the quote making a murderer like. And 1:08:11.400 --> 1:08:14.040 they were planning a wedding, apparently, him and his girlfriend. 1:08:14.080 --> 1:08:15.919 And he was working full time at the salvage yard, 1:08:15.920 --> 1:08:18.799 and he'd gotten twenty five grand from the Wisconsin Claims 1:08:18.800 --> 1:08:20.679 Board and there was apparently maybe more coming. 1:08:20.800 --> 1:08:23.200 And then he had these two power. 1:08:22.960 --> 1:08:26.920 Lawyers from Milwaukee, Stephen Glynn and Walter Kelly, who were 1:08:27.400 --> 1:08:29.800 representing him in his thirty six million dollar wrong full 1:08:29.800 --> 1:08:34.040 conviction suit. So he had, you know, big plans, like 1:08:34.160 --> 1:08:37.240 his dad said, I read this really good article about 1:08:37.240 --> 1:08:42.160 this that'll be in our show notes in Milwaukee magazine. 1:08:42.200 --> 1:08:44.280 And Steven the dad said. 1:08:44.439 --> 1:08:47.360 Steven's dad said, Stevie had everything going for him, everything, 1:08:47.400 --> 1:08:49.640 and he was happy. So that's like the state of 1:08:49.720 --> 1:08:52.760 mind in two thousand and five. Okay, Then Halloween of 1:08:52.800 --> 1:08:55.920 two thousand and five, Teresa Hallback a young woman. 1:08:55.960 --> 1:08:58.040 She's twenty five years old. She's a photographer. 1:08:58.400 --> 1:09:02.640 She works and takes photographs for Auto Trader magazine, So 1:09:02.680 --> 1:09:04.839 when people are going to sell their cars in this magazine, 1:09:04.880 --> 1:09:07.240 she'll go out and take photos of the car. And 1:09:07.960 --> 1:09:10.320 she went out to the Avery family salvage yard to 1:09:10.439 --> 1:09:12.719 take photos of a mini van that Stephen was selling 1:09:12.760 --> 1:09:16.360 for his sister. And Stephen is the one that made 1:09:16.360 --> 1:09:18.880 the appointment, even though it was the sister's car. And 1:09:19.000 --> 1:09:24.120 he apparently called Teresa Halbach's sell a couple of times, 1:09:24.200 --> 1:09:28.000 and in or maybe three times, and in like two 1:09:28.080 --> 1:09:29.640 of the times he did that thing where you call 1:09:29.720 --> 1:09:31.760 your you hide your number? Is that star six to six? 1:09:32.400 --> 1:09:34.680 Star sixty nine? Oh, that's how you find out? Star 1:09:34.760 --> 1:09:36.040 sixty nine is how you call back? 1:09:36.160 --> 1:09:38.479 Right? Star six six is how you like mask your. 1:09:38.479 --> 1:09:40.760 NOTT sixty six. It's got to be six seven. And 1:09:40.800 --> 1:09:43.120 it's just too close to the devil. I can't imagine 1:09:44.000 --> 1:09:48.280 like phone companies choosing sixty six. Yeah, at sixty seven, 1:09:48.320 --> 1:09:51.000 there's no air country on a leash start sixty seven. Yea, 1:09:51.360 --> 1:09:53.600 it is Star sixty seven. I'm a double worshiper. 1:09:53.760 --> 1:09:56.280 Yeah, that's why I was. I'm sorry. 1:09:56.360 --> 1:09:58.479 I am in the midst of a satanic panic, and 1:09:58.520 --> 1:09:59.560 I apologize. 1:09:59.600 --> 1:10:03.240 Yes, I think that Rosie is in Montessori, but she's 1:10:03.360 --> 1:10:05.360 actually and she's an. 1:10:05.240 --> 1:10:07.400 Over switch school that I put her into. 1:10:08.000 --> 1:10:10.080 Have you seen that clip of that little girl where 1:10:10.080 --> 1:10:12.320 they're like, you're gonna change the world and she goes, no, 1:10:12.360 --> 1:10:15.120 I'm gonna I'm evil. I'm gonna turn everyone into a witch. 1:10:15.160 --> 1:10:17.960 Have you seen that kid? Oh, it's cute, And then 1:10:18.000 --> 1:10:20.320 the end she goes, I'm just kidding, but people send 1:10:20.360 --> 1:10:22.320 it to me, going she reminds me of you, But 1:10:23.400 --> 1:10:26.519 it's a really funny kid. That's really cute. 1:10:26.520 --> 1:10:28.160 Okay, I'm gonna try to find that last time I 1:10:28.200 --> 1:10:30.639 see it, I'll send it over to poured it over. 1:10:30.840 --> 1:10:31.160 Yeah. 1:10:32.120 --> 1:10:34.080 But so he called her a couple of times on 1:10:34.080 --> 1:10:36.519 her cell and was hiding his number, like that's kind 1:10:36.520 --> 1:10:39.280 of sketchy, and he apparently when he called auto Trader, 1:10:39.320 --> 1:10:41.760 he was like, send the girl you sent last time 1:10:41.840 --> 1:10:44.439 or something. So it's like he was specifically requesting her. 1:10:45.880 --> 1:10:50.840 And so what happens next This is an account from witnesses, 1:10:51.080 --> 1:10:55.479 but including his nephew Brendan Dacy. Okay, so apparently what 1:10:55.520 --> 1:10:57.600 happens is she shows up knocks on the door of 1:10:57.600 --> 1:11:01.000 Stephen Avery's house. No One answers, and so she goes 1:11:01.000 --> 1:11:02.960 around to the back of the trailer where she's out 1:11:03.000 --> 1:11:05.600 of you from other people. He opens the door and 1:11:05.640 --> 1:11:07.880 he's wearing a towel. He must have told people that, 1:11:07.920 --> 1:11:09.400 because I don't know how anyone else would. 1:11:09.160 --> 1:11:09.519 Have known that. 1:11:10.040 --> 1:11:13.719 And somehow she enters Stephen Avery's home and nobody knows 1:11:13.720 --> 1:11:15.760 whether it was on her own accord or not. 1:11:15.960 --> 1:11:16.320 Okay. 1:11:16.920 --> 1:11:21.759 Brendan Dacy, Steven's sixteen year old nephew shows up from school, 1:11:22.200 --> 1:11:25.040 checks the mail and there's a letter in the mail 1:11:25.080 --> 1:11:26.880 for his uncle. So he goes to bring it to 1:11:26.920 --> 1:11:30.160 his uncle's trailer and apparently he's here. Screams as he's 1:11:30.160 --> 1:11:33.920 approaching the trailer, and according to Brendan, when uncle comes 1:11:33.920 --> 1:11:36.400 to the door, he is sweaty from like, you know, 1:11:36.520 --> 1:11:38.799 he says, like having sex with some woman or something, 1:11:39.080 --> 1:11:40.360 and he asks, do you want to come in and 1:11:40.400 --> 1:11:43.519 take a turn, And when he walks in, Brendan reports 1:11:43.520 --> 1:11:46.759 that Teresa is shackled to the bed, naked, face up, 1:11:47.720 --> 1:11:50.240 spread eagle and begging him like don't do this, don't 1:11:50.240 --> 1:11:52.360 do this, please, you know, begging for her life. And 1:11:52.640 --> 1:11:55.080 he said he raped her while his uncle watched. He 1:11:55.120 --> 1:11:56.880 then said that they went and watched TV for a 1:11:56.880 --> 1:11:58.880 few minutes, and that his uncle then explained that they 1:11:58.880 --> 1:12:00.920 were going to kill her, and then they went into 1:12:00.920 --> 1:12:04.800 the room. Steven stabbed her, then told Brendan to cut 1:12:04.840 --> 1:12:07.479 her neck. He did it, and then Steven told him 1:12:07.479 --> 1:12:10.479 cut her hair, so he did that, and then Avery 1:12:11.360 --> 1:12:15.000 choked Teresa for a couple of minutes, and then they 1:12:15.400 --> 1:12:17.639 untied her body from the bed, tied her up with rope, 1:12:17.680 --> 1:12:19.519 and carried her to the garage. At this point, she 1:12:19.680 --> 1:12:22.920 is dead and they fucked up. It's super fucked up. 1:12:22.960 --> 1:12:26.439 But wait for it. So then they placed the body 1:12:26.439 --> 1:12:29.160 in the trunk of the car, and then Avery tells 1:12:29.240 --> 1:12:32.559 Dacy that he was planning to dump the body in 1:12:32.560 --> 1:12:34.800 a pond that's by the salvage yard, but the pond 1:12:34.880 --> 1:12:36.880 was dry, so he decides, okay, just burn her in 1:12:36.920 --> 1:12:39.120 the fire pit that's behind our garage. And there was 1:12:39.160 --> 1:12:41.840 already like a fire going in it, so before they 1:12:41.880 --> 1:12:44.960 carried her there, apparently, according to Brendan, Avery put her 1:12:45.000 --> 1:12:47.680 on the garage floor and walked to his house, got 1:12:47.680 --> 1:12:49.640 a semi automatic rifle and then fired. 1:12:49.360 --> 1:12:51.200 Ten rounds into her body. What the fuck? 1:12:51.960 --> 1:12:55.719 Yes, Then, with Dassy in the park passenger seat. He said, 1:12:55.760 --> 1:12:58.080 Avery drove the rab for to the far side of 1:12:58.080 --> 1:13:00.920 the salvage yard, passing the car crush her. He could 1:13:00.920 --> 1:13:03.400 have just crushed the car, but he just drove it 1:13:03.439 --> 1:13:06.679 past and said, I'm gonna crush this car. Later then, 1:13:06.840 --> 1:13:10.400 Avery walked back to the trailer and apparently stashed the 1:13:10.439 --> 1:13:13.280 Toyota ignition key in a drawer, and then took all 1:13:13.280 --> 1:13:14.720 the sheets off the bed and put them on the 1:13:14.720 --> 1:13:17.679 fire pit. And Brendan reported that while he was helping 1:13:17.680 --> 1:13:20.240 his uncle wipe down the garage floor, he did get 1:13:20.240 --> 1:13:22.800 bleach on his blue jeans and it turned the fabric white, 1:13:22.800 --> 1:13:25.439 and his mom later confirmed that he had stained his 1:13:25.479 --> 1:13:27.839 parts while helping his uncle clean the garage around Halloween. 1:13:28.240 --> 1:13:31.879 This motherfucker better be in prison. We'll hold on a nephew, 1:13:32.520 --> 1:13:35.160 so fucking hang like, let's bring back a hanging public. 1:13:35.280 --> 1:13:36.920 Well this is what this is, what's like. 1:13:36.960 --> 1:13:38.760 I'm sure people that watch making a murder are like, 1:13:38.840 --> 1:13:42.120 we'se a weight because like there's more. So a few 1:13:42.200 --> 1:13:45.479 days later, obviously Teresa's family reports are missing. 1:13:45.880 --> 1:13:48.880 It's like, wait that there's more, like infomercial like in 1:13:48.960 --> 1:13:50.600 drag Race, but sadder. 1:13:54.040 --> 1:13:59.000 So a couple days after she goes missing. She's very beloved, 1:13:59.080 --> 1:14:01.479 like she has a close knit family. Her family's like 1:14:01.520 --> 1:14:05.599 looking for her desperately. All the people in the community 1:14:05.640 --> 1:14:08.240 are looking for her for this like nice young girl. 1:14:08.680 --> 1:14:11.240 And so there's a search party and they're checking the 1:14:11.280 --> 1:14:14.559 Avery salvage yard because like, you know, there's proof that 1:14:14.640 --> 1:14:17.000 she was headed there, like this was like you know, 1:14:17.520 --> 1:14:22.439 And so the search party goes to search the salvage yard, 1:14:22.439 --> 1:14:25.880 and honestly, Stephen's brother said, yeah, go ahead, search the 1:14:25.880 --> 1:14:28.680 salvage yard. And they find her rav four with the 1:14:28.720 --> 1:14:32.640 license plates removed, underneath a bunch of like brush, and 1:14:32.680 --> 1:14:36.360 they've got like some you know, car hoods and auto 1:14:36.400 --> 1:14:38.320 parts kind of like covering it so it looks like 1:14:38.360 --> 1:14:40.920 it's trying to be hidden. So then later they find 1:14:41.280 --> 1:14:44.160 her crumpled license plates in a scrapped car down the 1:14:44.200 --> 1:14:47.519 road from Avery's trailer. They did find some spent rifle 1:14:47.520 --> 1:14:50.200 casings in his garage and a pair of handcuffs and 1:14:50.240 --> 1:14:54.200 leg irons in his house and in his bathroom. Apparently 1:14:54.240 --> 1:14:56.200 on the surface of the vanity there were some dried 1:14:56.240 --> 1:14:57.040 blood spots. 1:14:57.720 --> 1:15:02.880 So then the manuch Wak they have been relieved. 1:15:02.439 --> 1:15:04.519 Of the case because it is a conflict of interest 1:15:04.520 --> 1:15:09.320 because of this lawsuit, and so like another not another county, 1:15:09.360 --> 1:15:12.040 but another sheriff's department is covering it, but they're using 1:15:12.120 --> 1:15:16.280 Manitowoc deputies to help them. So a Manitowac deputy finds 1:15:16.280 --> 1:15:18.720 the key to Hauliback's rav four, which by the way, 1:15:18.760 --> 1:15:20.439 is the car I drive. And when my family found 1:15:20.439 --> 1:15:21.840 out that I got a row for they were like, 1:15:21.880 --> 1:15:23.519 oh my god, what are you? Teresa hallback like that. 1:15:23.560 --> 1:15:24.840 You know, it was like a lot of I was 1:15:24.880 --> 1:15:26.920 getting a lot of flack for it. But they look 1:15:27.040 --> 1:15:29.280 very different than they did in two thousand and five. Anyway, 1:15:30.320 --> 1:15:32.920 he finds a key to her car. It just like 1:15:33.000 --> 1:15:36.160 falls out of a book. And in the documentary they 1:15:36.200 --> 1:15:38.800 heavily implied that this key could have been planted because 1:15:38.800 --> 1:15:41.800 this is like a sheriff from the town that is 1:15:42.120 --> 1:15:44.759 under the lawsuit that has targeted this family for years. 1:15:45.320 --> 1:15:50.160 And anyway, so in a six by six foot fire 1:15:50.200 --> 1:15:53.519 pit behind the Avery's garage, they did find human tissue 1:15:53.640 --> 1:15:57.160 teeth and bones that was crushed and charred. And then 1:15:57.200 --> 1:15:59.639 in a barrel used to burn trash, they did find 1:15:59.680 --> 1:16:05.280 a cell phone and a camera and eventually Avery's blood 1:16:05.560 --> 1:16:08.639 was found on Teresa's car, and DNA from his sweat 1:16:08.760 --> 1:16:12.760 was found on the key that they found, so DNA 1:16:13.360 --> 1:16:16.720 exonerated him and then puts him back in prison. So 1:16:17.080 --> 1:16:20.479 eleven days after Teresa's gone missing, Avery is charged arrested 1:16:20.520 --> 1:16:23.560 in charge with murder, kidnapping, sexual assault. 1:16:23.160 --> 1:16:24.400 And mutilation of a corpse. 1:16:24.640 --> 1:16:27.879 What about the nephew, hold on, it's coming, Okay, I'm sorry. 1:16:28.080 --> 1:16:28.559 It's okay. 1:16:29.040 --> 1:16:31.599 He immediately begins claiming that this is a frame job 1:16:31.600 --> 1:16:34.640 from Manitoua County to avoid paying his civil suit. And 1:16:34.720 --> 1:16:37.080 if you do look at it, it is kind of like, 1:16:37.760 --> 1:16:40.000 why would this man do this? He had he stood 1:16:40.000 --> 1:16:42.759 to gain all this money, he's been out for two years. 1:16:43.760 --> 1:16:47.040 Here's the other thing. When they go and they search 1:16:47.320 --> 1:16:51.040 the bedroom, this bedroom where apparently this bloody, violent murder 1:16:51.080 --> 1:16:53.080 and rape happened, there's no blood. 1:16:53.520 --> 1:16:54.679 There's no blood anywhere. 1:16:54.960 --> 1:16:58.080 There's no blood in the garage where apparently he shot 1:16:58.080 --> 1:17:00.960 her ten times with and I know he had bleach, 1:17:01.080 --> 1:17:04.479 but like I just if you see this man, you're like, 1:17:04.600 --> 1:17:06.920 this is not a criminal mastermind, this is not someone 1:17:06.960 --> 1:17:08.880 It's like what you were saying about Scott Peterson, Like 1:17:09.280 --> 1:17:12.880 there's just no way that so little evidence would be 1:17:12.920 --> 1:17:15.160 found like DNA or blood if this is where the 1:17:15.240 --> 1:17:17.640 murder happened. So a lot of people don't think the 1:17:17.720 --> 1:17:21.880 murder happened in the trailer because and I'll get to it. 1:17:22.200 --> 1:17:25.120 So he immediately starts claiming it's a frame job. His 1:17:25.360 --> 1:17:27.760 lawyers argued that a sample of his blood that had 1:17:27.760 --> 1:17:30.360 been taken a decade earlier in his appeals process for 1:17:30.400 --> 1:17:33.040 the rape had been tampered with. There was a puncture 1:17:33.040 --> 1:17:36.599 hole in it, so like a manage walk deputy very 1:17:36.600 --> 1:17:38.960 well could have taken a smear of blood put it 1:17:39.000 --> 1:17:41.880 on Teresa Hallback's car. It was a small, small amount 1:17:41.920 --> 1:17:45.960 of blood of his that they found. So the documentary 1:17:46.000 --> 1:17:48.200 really does toy with you, like they have people talking 1:17:48.200 --> 1:17:50.760 about how Steven used to, like, yeah, torture cats even 1:17:50.760 --> 1:17:53.240 like before his rape wrongful rape conviction. But then the 1:17:53.320 --> 1:17:56.639 doc also like very much demonizes the prosecutor ken Kratz 1:17:57.000 --> 1:17:58.960 and the whole law enforcement in the area, like ken 1:17:59.040 --> 1:18:03.559 Kratz was like fully clowned from this documentary, Like he 1:18:03.600 --> 1:18:05.920 has like a dog named Cheddar. My brother used to 1:18:05.920 --> 1:18:07.840 like send us photos of ken Kratz and his dog 1:18:07.880 --> 1:18:10.040 named Cheddar like, I don't know, it's just he When 1:18:10.080 --> 1:18:12.400 you see the guy, he's very whiny, like the only 1:18:12.400 --> 1:18:14.680 he tunks in the documentary, and it's like you just 1:18:14.720 --> 1:18:16.639 hate Ken Kratz, even if he's doing the right thing. 1:18:16.720 --> 1:18:20.400 You just hate him when you're watching it and you 1:18:20.560 --> 1:18:22.880 just don't know. You're like, this could be a frame. 1:18:23.000 --> 1:18:25.760 Who knows. And I used to think when I watched it, 1:18:25.800 --> 1:18:27.559 I was like, this man is innocent. But I thought 1:18:27.600 --> 1:18:30.960 that about Adnan, sayed, I'm very like, I don't know. 1:18:31.000 --> 1:18:32.880 I guess I'm a glasses half full when it comes 1:18:32.880 --> 1:18:35.320 to like an accused person. I'm when I think that 1:18:35.360 --> 1:18:37.439 there might be wrongfully accused, I'm like, no, they didn't 1:18:37.439 --> 1:18:40.760 do it. I'm very susceptible to this kind of documentarianism 1:18:40.760 --> 1:18:45.680 and journalism. So after this aired, Stephen be starting to 1:18:45.720 --> 1:18:48.519 become represented by Kathleen Zelner, who is a very hot 1:18:48.560 --> 1:18:51.679 shot Chicago lawyer who does a lot of these wrong 1:18:51.920 --> 1:18:54.679 folk conventions and stuff like that. She's featured a little 1:18:54.680 --> 1:18:56.200 bit at the end of Making a Murder season one, 1:18:56.200 --> 1:18:58.519 and she's like the main character of season two, and 1:18:58.600 --> 1:19:01.920 she's just this very funny, like rich woman, like rich 1:19:01.960 --> 1:19:04.120 looking lawyer woman who like talks about it, and she's 1:19:04.160 --> 1:19:07.880 still filing appeals for Avery today. In two thousand and six, 1:19:07.960 --> 1:19:10.320 he ended up settling for his wrong full rape conviction 1:19:10.479 --> 1:19:13.280 for four hundred K, which was supposed to be thirty 1:19:13.320 --> 1:19:17.840 six million. And the Innocence Project has exonerated one hundred 1:19:17.880 --> 1:19:19.880 and seventy four people, and as of two thousand and six, 1:19:19.960 --> 1:19:22.559 Stephen Avery was the only one to be charged with 1:19:22.600 --> 1:19:26.080 a violent crime after release. So here's one of the 1:19:26.120 --> 1:19:28.240 most controversial things in the document, and that is the 1:19:28.360 --> 1:19:30.880 role that Avery's nephew, Brendan Dassy may Or may not 1:19:30.880 --> 1:19:33.479 have played in this crime. So, first of all, Brendan 1:19:33.560 --> 1:19:36.360 was Steven's alibi at first. So when they bring him in, 1:19:36.720 --> 1:19:40.439 he's sixteen. He has an extremely low IQ. So this 1:19:40.520 --> 1:19:42.599 is I believe where they're getting some of the Charlie 1:19:43.280 --> 1:19:45.800 hornsby what's the guy's name, Charlie whatever, the guy in 1:19:45.840 --> 1:19:48.880 the episode that wants to fuck Rollins like that. The 1:19:48.960 --> 1:19:51.240 guy we were saying he might have some kind of disorder. 1:19:51.280 --> 1:19:53.479 I think he just has a very low IQ. So 1:19:53.880 --> 1:19:56.599 he was in special ed classes and they brought this 1:19:56.720 --> 1:20:00.840 kid in. They interrogated him multiple times, hours at a time, 1:20:01.200 --> 1:20:05.080 no parent, no counsel present. Okay, this is a kid 1:20:05.160 --> 1:20:07.400 that just wants to get out of there. They keep 1:20:07.439 --> 1:20:09.240 telling him, if you just tell us what happened, you 1:20:09.240 --> 1:20:11.439 can go back to school. You know, they're doing all 1:20:11.439 --> 1:20:16.360 these tactics that are approved for questioning adults, but not 1:20:16.479 --> 1:20:21.160 for questioning like sixteen year old, like kids with low IQs. 1:20:21.280 --> 1:20:23.000 You know, it's like it doesn't feel. 1:20:23.200 --> 1:20:26.479 Yeah, yeah, but I don't care what you're a Q is. 1:20:26.520 --> 1:20:30.240 If you fucking raped this person and did any like, 1:20:30.280 --> 1:20:31.080 I don't give a fuck. 1:20:31.520 --> 1:20:34.720 He later said that he made it all up and 1:20:34.760 --> 1:20:36.720 it was from a book that he read, and a 1:20:36.760 --> 1:20:39.479 lot of people have written, and there's there's sources to 1:20:39.520 --> 1:20:42.320 this in our show notes. A lot of people think 1:20:42.400 --> 1:20:45.040 that he is retelling the plot of James Patterson's book 1:20:45.120 --> 1:20:45.880 Kiss the Girls. 1:20:45.880 --> 1:20:47.960 Have you seen that movie or read that book? I 1:20:48.040 --> 1:20:49.519 like that you asked for the movie first. 1:20:49.600 --> 1:20:53.120 That was a shade, But I have read the book 1:20:53.120 --> 1:20:54.960 and I was a big James Patterson head. 1:20:55.080 --> 1:20:59.080 And that's why I added the book because I knew 1:20:59.080 --> 1:21:02.320 that you like James Patta. And here's the thing a 1:21:02.360 --> 1:21:04.960 lot of people did like all this comparison, where they 1:21:05.080 --> 1:21:07.080 at first they he said he read it in a book. 1:21:07.120 --> 1:21:09.120 But what they really think is that he watched the 1:21:09.160 --> 1:21:10.920 movie of Kiss the Girls, because a lot of the 1:21:10.960 --> 1:21:13.680 stuff that that he said happened is in Kiss the 1:21:13.720 --> 1:21:16.160 Girls and is in the movie and not in the book. 1:21:16.680 --> 1:21:19.920 And so yeah, he later completely recanted his confession, said 1:21:19.920 --> 1:21:22.360 he was making all this stuff up. There is not 1:21:22.560 --> 1:21:26.120 a lot of evidence of Teresa's assault happening in the trailer, 1:21:26.240 --> 1:21:28.600 like I said, like there being no blood on this 1:21:28.680 --> 1:21:30.960 bed where you said that you cut her throat open, 1:21:31.280 --> 1:21:32.599 he stabbed her in the stomach. 1:21:32.640 --> 1:21:34.160 There's no blood, Okay, like. 1:21:34.240 --> 1:21:38.679 Sure, but but what about the teeth and the things, 1:21:38.720 --> 1:21:41.599 and the woman is dead. She's dead, she was killed there. 1:21:41.880 --> 1:21:44.520 But I think there there is a lot of reasonable 1:21:44.560 --> 1:21:47.960 doubt where some people think, okay, let me just okay 1:21:48.040 --> 1:21:50.200 go back, Yeah, let me just go back because okay, 1:21:50.280 --> 1:21:53.880 so just to finish off the Brendan part, so the 1:21:53.920 --> 1:21:55.760 cops all told him he could just go home, So 1:21:55.800 --> 1:21:57.200 he just made up a bunch of shits so he 1:21:57.200 --> 1:21:58.160 could get the fuck out of there. 1:21:58.160 --> 1:21:59.080 And you can tell in. 1:21:59.040 --> 1:22:02.960 His confession tapes, which are in the dock, that he 1:22:03.000 --> 1:22:05.320 has no idea what he's talking about, and that, like, 1:22:05.400 --> 1:22:08.280 so then there's this whole kiss the girl's connection. He 1:22:08.360 --> 1:22:11.479 later completely recanted his confession. His initial lawyer was a 1:22:11.479 --> 1:22:14.680 guy named Len Kachinski, who is also villainized in the 1:22:14.760 --> 1:22:16.760 in the Dock and is not a good lawyer. He 1:22:16.880 --> 1:22:19.400 came on after the confession and he's like, there's no 1:22:19.439 --> 1:22:21.559 way a jury's going to acquit this kid, even though 1:22:21.560 --> 1:22:23.799 there was zero DNA tying him to the murder. 1:22:23.840 --> 1:22:25.120 His DNA was nowhere. 1:22:25.560 --> 1:22:27.479 So you're telling me this kid rape the girl, slid 1:22:27.520 --> 1:22:27.840 her throat. 1:22:27.880 --> 1:22:29.880 Did all this no DNA of this kid, No, because 1:22:29.920 --> 1:22:31.880 a lot of this part of it did not happen, 1:22:31.920 --> 1:22:34.519 in my opinion, and this was one of Wisconsin's biggest 1:22:34.520 --> 1:22:37.960 criminal investigations ever. Like people said that when the salvage yard, 1:22:38.000 --> 1:22:40.599 when the car was found, the whole salvage yard became 1:22:40.640 --> 1:22:43.760 like a full CSI episode, like no one in or out, 1:22:43.880 --> 1:22:47.360 Like they've set up a full, like freestanding building to 1:22:47.439 --> 1:22:49.360 examine her car in so they wouldn't have to move 1:22:49.360 --> 1:22:52.800 it very far. Like there was DNA taken from every 1:22:52.800 --> 1:22:56.439 fucking service, nothing tying DASSI to this assault or this murder. 1:22:57.000 --> 1:22:59.800 So when Kacinski couldn't get the confession thrown out. He 1:23:00.000 --> 1:23:03.880 basically told Dacy to get a plea deal. He's like, 1:23:03.920 --> 1:23:05.840 do a plea deal. And so a lot of people 1:23:05.880 --> 1:23:07.960 think that he had ineffective counsel and that he should 1:23:08.000 --> 1:23:10.720 not be in jail because of this coerse confession and 1:23:10.760 --> 1:23:13.759 ineffective council and all this stuff. He set up another 1:23:13.800 --> 1:23:15.960 meeting with Dascy in the authorities, and then he didn't 1:23:16.000 --> 1:23:18.439 show up the lawyer he was like away serving in 1:23:18.479 --> 1:23:21.360 the army reserve or something, and so a judge removed 1:23:21.400 --> 1:23:23.800 him from the case. And now Dassy is represented by 1:23:24.120 --> 1:23:27.360 Stephen Drisden and Laura and Nyrider, who are professors at 1:23:27.400 --> 1:23:32.400 Northwestern's Center of Wrongful Convictions of Youth, and they are 1:23:32.439 --> 1:23:36.440 experts in the false confessions from juveniles. And in twenty sixteen, 1:23:37.280 --> 1:23:39.360 no I believe it was in twenty seventeen, a judge 1:23:39.360 --> 1:23:41.800 actually ruled that his confession was coerced, and then like 1:23:41.880 --> 1:23:46.160 another appellate judge or circuit court said no, it was fine. 1:23:46.280 --> 1:23:47.599 So there was a huge. 1:23:47.439 --> 1:23:49.880 Day where all of us were like Brendan Dacy's getting 1:23:49.880 --> 1:23:51.920 out of jail because a lot of people think Stephen 1:23:51.960 --> 1:23:53.599 Avery is involved in this murder. 1:23:53.920 --> 1:23:56.280 Probably me too, but a lot. 1:23:56.360 --> 1:23:58.960 But there is kind of no evidence that it happened 1:23:59.000 --> 1:24:01.519 the way Brendan said, or that Brendan had anything to 1:24:01.560 --> 1:24:03.599 do with it, Like he just like no one thinks 1:24:03.640 --> 1:24:06.320 he has the capacity to like really, oh well. 1:24:06.200 --> 1:24:07.200 His uncle threatened him. 1:24:07.200 --> 1:24:10.160 He was just like it's still like there's just not 1:24:10.360 --> 1:24:12.439 there's just not the evidence that Brendan had anything to 1:24:12.479 --> 1:24:16.639 do with it besides this wild confession. And so he's 1:24:16.640 --> 1:24:18.840 still in jail and still filing for appeal and still 1:24:18.880 --> 1:24:20.080 filing for parole. 1:24:20.120 --> 1:24:23.880 And as Stephen Avery's still filing like appeals too, or 1:24:24.040 --> 1:24:24.919 he's just so. 1:24:24.720 --> 1:24:27.640 Stephen Avery is still Kathleen Zelner is still on it. 1:24:27.720 --> 1:24:29.040 She's still doing appeals for him. 1:24:29.080 --> 1:24:31.040 The last article I saw was from the end of 1:24:31.080 --> 1:24:34.720 twenty twenty one, and they're trying to get you know, 1:24:34.840 --> 1:24:37.760 new habeas corpus. So here's here's the thing I found out. 1:24:37.920 --> 1:24:41.080 There's a theory in the doc When you watch the 1:24:41.160 --> 1:24:44.880 doc Brendan Dacy has a brother named Bobby Dassy and 1:24:44.960 --> 1:24:49.840 a stepfather named Scott Taddick, and I believe in the 1:24:49.840 --> 1:24:51.760 documentary they say that they were both home at the 1:24:51.760 --> 1:24:54.720 state at the time of you know, Teresa's arrival at 1:24:54.720 --> 1:24:57.479 the home and disappearance, and there was like some people 1:24:57.520 --> 1:25:00.960 saying that, oh, a witness saw them driving way in 1:25:01.080 --> 1:25:04.040 Teresa's car and then saw it circle back, like all 1:25:04.080 --> 1:25:06.040 this stuff that the cops really didn't pay attention to 1:25:06.160 --> 1:25:08.280 because they were like, no, it's Steven and Steven, it's Stephen. 1:25:08.640 --> 1:25:11.200 So there's this possibility that people think that this father 1:25:11.280 --> 1:25:13.559 and son did it, that they took her somewhere else 1:25:13.600 --> 1:25:15.800 and murdered her and then burned her in the back 1:25:15.840 --> 1:25:18.639 of the family salvage yard. And that's why there's no 1:25:18.800 --> 1:25:21.920 physical evidence of the murder anywhere on the property. So 1:25:22.040 --> 1:25:25.400 this is like what got people fucking boners up on Reddit, 1:25:25.520 --> 1:25:27.080 you know, like this is what was happening. 1:25:27.160 --> 1:25:28.920 Like I'm not even a big Reddit person. 1:25:29.040 --> 1:25:31.400 I was like on Reddit reading theories, like I was 1:25:31.479 --> 1:25:35.360 so into this, like thinking just like why would this 1:25:35.400 --> 1:25:36.280 guy fucking do this? 1:25:36.360 --> 1:25:38.000 Like he knows he's gonna get caught. 1:25:38.040 --> 1:25:40.000 This wasn't like a crime of passion where a woman 1:25:40.080 --> 1:25:42.400 yelled at him like they said in the episode. This 1:25:42.479 --> 1:25:45.000 seems thought out that he had her come out there 1:25:45.360 --> 1:25:48.799 to kill her, knowing that they have cell phone calls together. 1:25:49.200 --> 1:25:51.439 People are gonna be wondering where she is, you know 1:25:51.439 --> 1:25:54.439 what I mean, It just like doesn't all hold together. 1:25:55.400 --> 1:26:00.200 So did anyone ever investigate this dad's son duo? I 1:26:00.200 --> 1:26:00.800 don't think so. 1:26:01.000 --> 1:26:02.439 I don't think it was like they I think they 1:26:02.439 --> 1:26:05.040 were each other's alibis and it was like it just 1:26:05.160 --> 1:26:07.040 wasn't a thing. And I don't know if the witnesses 1:26:07.040 --> 1:26:09.879 were credible. But now they're saying that there's a potential 1:26:09.960 --> 1:26:13.439 new witness who was not evaluated at this most recent 1:26:13.800 --> 1:26:17.200 appeal process, but could still be presented later in another 1:26:17.240 --> 1:26:21.200 court hearing. And this witness is a delivery driver named 1:26:21.360 --> 1:26:25.440 Thomas Sewinski, who claims to have seen quote a shirtless 1:26:25.479 --> 1:26:30.080 Bobby Dassy and an quote unidentified older male pushing a 1:26:30.120 --> 1:26:33.840 Toyota rav for down Avery Road towards the junkyard in 1:26:33.880 --> 1:26:36.840 the early morning hours of November fifth, according to court 1:26:36.880 --> 1:26:39.719 documents filed by Zelner in April. 1:26:40.240 --> 1:26:42.439 But did Steven say that he opened the door and 1:26:42.520 --> 1:26:45.599 let her in? Like, was that ever confirmed? I don't know, 1:26:46.439 --> 1:26:50.240 Like the towel. So there's a lot of circumstantial evidence. 1:26:51.560 --> 1:26:55.639 It's just hard to say, Like, you know, if Stephen's innocent, 1:26:55.800 --> 1:26:57.759 maybe this was just a regular day in his life, 1:26:57.800 --> 1:27:00.559 like the way that odd Nonsayed claims it was a 1:27:00.560 --> 1:27:03.599 regular day in his life, and you know, his junior 1:27:03.640 --> 1:27:05.439 year of high school or senior of high school or whatever. 1:27:05.560 --> 1:27:06.760 So I don't know. 1:27:06.880 --> 1:27:08.679 I think this is one of the reasons why people 1:27:08.760 --> 1:27:11.559 are so obsessed with this case, because this is a 1:27:11.560 --> 1:27:14.679 guy who served all this time. Certainly, if he killed 1:27:14.720 --> 1:27:18.160 Teresa hallback, she doesn't her justice does not lie on 1:27:18.200 --> 1:27:21.160 his false conviction, Like he doesn't get like back pay 1:27:21.200 --> 1:27:22.880 for jail time, you know what I mean, Like he 1:27:22.920 --> 1:27:26.280 doesn't get to use his jail time to commit other crimes. 1:27:26.920 --> 1:27:28.400 But I don't know. 1:27:28.439 --> 1:27:32.400 It just seems like the motive seems really difficult when 1:27:32.840 --> 1:27:35.840 he was standing to earn millions of dollars. If not 1:27:35.840 --> 1:27:37.800 the whole thirty six million, he could have even a 1:27:37.840 --> 1:27:39.880 million dollars would have changed this guy's life, you know. 1:27:40.920 --> 1:27:43.120 So I just find it hard to believe that he 1:27:43.160 --> 1:27:47.839 would have just like lured a girl out to his house, 1:27:48.200 --> 1:27:51.080 killed her and thought he could get away with it. 1:27:51.080 --> 1:27:52.800 It just doesn't seem like he's smart enough for that. 1:27:53.120 --> 1:27:56.880 So I don't know for sure, But if someone has 1:27:56.920 --> 1:27:59.600 this low siq, you don't think about the future, Like 1:27:59.600 --> 1:28:02.040 I don't think your weighing out options and like what's 1:28:02.080 --> 1:28:04.320 going to happen or consequences, I don't know. 1:28:04.360 --> 1:28:06.320 But then it's like his family tries to say that 1:28:06.360 --> 1:28:08.360 he was his family's Like he was working hard, he 1:28:08.400 --> 1:28:10.120 wanted to buy a house, He was looking forward to 1:28:10.120 --> 1:28:13.240 marrying his girlfriend. Like if you're in jail for eighteen 1:28:13.320 --> 1:28:16.160 years for something you didn't do, like, wouldn't you kind 1:28:16.160 --> 1:28:19.160 of do anything to not go back there, Like I 1:28:19.200 --> 1:28:20.280 don't know, well. 1:28:20.120 --> 1:28:22.400 And that's the thing, and SV you didn't talk about this, 1:28:22.520 --> 1:28:26.080 but like my she as a listener of the podcast, 1:28:26.120 --> 1:28:27.760 so if I fuck up facts, she'll let us know. 1:28:28.400 --> 1:28:31.280 But I worked with someone and her mom dated someone 1:28:31.320 --> 1:28:35.280 that spent twenty five years in prison, and then they 1:28:35.280 --> 1:28:39.000 were living together, and like he would still sleep in 1:28:39.040 --> 1:28:42.880 his prison outfit and like sleep on the floor, curled up, 1:28:42.920 --> 1:28:46.040 and still had all these weird habits from prison, like 1:28:46.840 --> 1:28:48.479 and could not really break out of it. 1:28:48.520 --> 1:28:49.000 And they had a. 1:28:48.960 --> 1:28:52.839 Weird relationship obviously, but and he was going blind whatever 1:28:53.880 --> 1:28:56.479 hit me up, girl, if this is real or not, 1:28:57.000 --> 1:28:59.439 But that stuck with me forever. But he would like 1:28:59.479 --> 1:29:01.840 still wear his prison jumpsuit and like couldeh get. 1:29:01.760 --> 1:29:02.200 Out of that? 1:29:02.280 --> 1:29:06.240 So maybe maybe buying a house, getting married in all 1:29:06.240 --> 1:29:08.800 these real life things were too overwhelming and stressful and 1:29:08.840 --> 1:29:10.120 he wanted to be back in prison. 1:29:11.320 --> 1:29:14.799 Yeah, maybe he is still maintaining his innocence, like he's 1:29:15.040 --> 1:29:17.120 been saying from the jump, this is a frame job 1:29:17.120 --> 1:29:21.840 from the Manitua County, you know, Sheriff's department. Like why 1:29:21.840 --> 1:29:23.800 would he have kept the key to the car. Why 1:29:23.800 --> 1:29:26.759 wouldn't you have like thrown that into a field or something? 1:29:26.800 --> 1:29:27.360 You know what I mean. 1:29:27.520 --> 1:29:30.719 Like there's a lot. I guess maybe I'm thinking maybe 1:29:30.720 --> 1:29:33.280 I'm being too But so you think this uncle or 1:29:33.320 --> 1:29:37.080 like this other duo, Dad and Sun duo, Like I mean, 1:29:37.120 --> 1:29:39.559 I do think it's a little bit wild that out 1:29:39.600 --> 1:29:42.720 of nowhere this new witness comes up being like, yeah, 1:29:42.720 --> 1:29:45.479 I saw these alternate people that could easily have been 1:29:45.479 --> 1:29:49.640 involved in Like where have you been? Like where have 1:29:49.680 --> 1:29:51.840 you been? I know you're a truck drive delivery driver? 1:29:51.880 --> 1:29:54.120 Have you been on a fifteen year Like, I mean, 1:29:54.760 --> 1:29:57.960 this case happened seventeen years ago, and like we're just 1:29:58.040 --> 1:30:00.479 hearing now that you saw these people pushing the car. 1:30:00.680 --> 1:30:04.759 I don't know, but I'm just hoping that our comments 1:30:04.840 --> 1:30:08.600 section today will be popping because I am curious to 1:30:08.680 --> 1:30:12.080 know what everyone is thinking. Like, obviously there's Oukham's razor, right, 1:30:12.160 --> 1:30:14.720 Like the simplest solution is probably the right solution. Like 1:30:14.760 --> 1:30:17.000 it seems like it should just be Steve and Avery, 1:30:17.040 --> 1:30:20.080 but just seems like there's a few things that and 1:30:20.120 --> 1:30:22.920 the documentary play toys with that, you know, like there's 1:30:23.000 --> 1:30:24.679 just a few things that you're like that doesn't really 1:30:24.720 --> 1:30:27.439 add up, and like, you know, I do think that 1:30:27.479 --> 1:30:30.280 Brendan Dacy should be like allowed out of jail. 1:30:30.320 --> 1:30:31.840 I don't think he had anything to do with it, 1:30:31.880 --> 1:30:35.919 but that is the case. Well, yeah he had bad counsel. 1:30:36.240 --> 1:30:40.200 Yeah, and a judge almost over a judge overturned his 1:30:40.200 --> 1:30:43.880 confession and then another court said no, it's upheld. So 1:30:44.160 --> 1:30:47.120 it's just like I remember like getting a Twitter alert 1:30:47.160 --> 1:30:49.160 that Brendan Dascy's getting out of jail, and I was 1:30:49.160 --> 1:30:51.320 like all right, and then it just totally like didn't 1:30:51.360 --> 1:30:54.320 work out, like another judge blocked him from getting out 1:30:54.320 --> 1:30:54.679 of jail. 1:30:54.720 --> 1:30:57.439 But also it's like the more we learn about everything, 1:30:57.479 --> 1:31:01.400 like judges are just guys, just go just peeps. 1:31:02.160 --> 1:31:03.160 Yeah, it's just funny. 1:31:03.240 --> 1:31:07.320 It's like to me, Okay, we're trusting this investigation with 1:31:07.360 --> 1:31:10.240 the same in the same hands essentially as handled the 1:31:10.280 --> 1:31:12.639 investigation where this man went to jail for eighteen years 1:31:12.439 --> 1:31:15.920 for no reason. I do it probably makes the most 1:31:16.000 --> 1:31:17.599 sense that he had something to do with it. 1:31:17.520 --> 1:31:20.920 But also cops foot up all the time for lots 1:31:20.960 --> 1:31:24.080 of different reasons constantly. It doesn't matter if it's Manataqua 1:31:24.160 --> 1:31:26.559 or Milwaukee or whatever fucking other city you want to 1:31:26.600 --> 1:31:26.880 point to. 1:31:26.920 --> 1:31:27.520 In Wisconsin. 1:31:27.880 --> 1:31:30.160 I'm sure they're fucking up and being lazy, like most 1:31:30.160 --> 1:31:31.360 of the cases that we cover. 1:31:31.760 --> 1:31:34.240 No, I know, I just I can kind of. 1:31:34.360 --> 1:31:37.720 I don't necessarily always buy oh, they're framing me, but 1:31:37.800 --> 1:31:40.920 I kind of almost buy it here because this this 1:31:41.080 --> 1:31:45.040 sheriff's office is of this county, hates this family, and 1:31:45.080 --> 1:31:46.479 that's what they talk about a lot in the dock. 1:31:46.520 --> 1:31:50.800 They set that up a lot. So anyway, I can't 1:31:50.800 --> 1:31:52.720 wait to see the comments section. I can't wait to 1:31:52.760 --> 1:31:54.880 hear what you guys think. I'm very on the I 1:31:55.040 --> 1:31:57.519 was a total Steven averys innocent person for like two 1:31:57.600 --> 1:31:59.640 years after this came out, and then as time went on, 1:31:59.720 --> 1:32:01.439 I was like, yeah, I probably did it, So I 1:32:01.479 --> 1:32:02.840 don't know well and. 1:32:02.880 --> 1:32:03.760 Also like it. 1:32:04.280 --> 1:32:06.720 You are right in terms of like small town politics 1:32:06.800 --> 1:32:08.920 versus like big city politics. 1:32:09.120 --> 1:32:12.320 And I know people from this town this era. 1:32:12.479 --> 1:32:13.000 You don't. 1:32:13.280 --> 1:32:15.720 Yes, I do know somebody who's from that place. And 1:32:15.760 --> 1:32:18.200 it's funny when they're like they'll just be like, yes, 1:32:18.240 --> 1:32:20.519 I'm from the Stephen Avery area, like yeah, Like. 1:32:21.479 --> 1:32:24.559 So, thank you so much. I'm going to work. Thank 1:32:24.600 --> 1:32:25.280 you for listening. 1:32:25.280 --> 1:32:26.920 I'm glad I could give you this sort of like 1:32:27.600 --> 1:32:30.960 you know, moral and we'll be judicial brands. 1:32:31.040 --> 1:32:33.640 Stood was so fucked up, and then to hear the 1:32:33.680 --> 1:32:37.160 details of how this woman was murdered makes me sick. 1:32:37.880 --> 1:32:40.120 But that might but that that is probably not how 1:32:40.160 --> 1:32:42.600 it happened. Of course, she was probably murdered in a 1:32:42.640 --> 1:32:45.679 horrible way, but I don't think that's what happened. 1:32:46.400 --> 1:32:47.400 What I described to you. 1:32:48.240 --> 1:32:50.080 I know, just the idea of all that's left of 1:32:50.120 --> 1:32:52.880 you is teeth, I know, brutal. 1:32:53.040 --> 1:32:54.880 It's like you hope that the death part was like 1:32:54.960 --> 1:32:57.240 quick and painless and that you know, then they can 1:32:57.320 --> 1:32:59.840 just you know, well, anyway I do. 1:33:00.000 --> 1:33:01.920 I want to say that we have an epic guest, 1:33:02.320 --> 1:33:05.120 one of the greatest of all time, and it was 1:33:05.160 --> 1:33:07.720 a joy and a pleasure and so that I think 1:33:07.760 --> 1:33:08.280 you'll all be. 1:33:08.280 --> 1:33:10.120 Really fucking excited. Who were about to talk to? 1:33:17.320 --> 1:33:21.160 Okay, guys, today's guest. We are so excited. 1:33:21.160 --> 1:33:23.160 I've been wanting to get this guy since the jump 1:33:23.200 --> 1:33:25.280 of this podcast. I've always wanted to have him on. 1:33:26.400 --> 1:33:30.439 You have seen him in pivotal roles on iconic dramas 1:33:30.520 --> 1:33:33.439 like The Wire and Ray Donovan, and currently you can 1:33:33.479 --> 1:33:36.120 catch him on an HBO Max original mini series called 1:33:36.160 --> 1:33:38.960 We Own This City. But you guys know him as 1:33:39.040 --> 1:33:42.840 the defense attorney that you love to hate, Mister John Buchanan. 1:33:43.600 --> 1:33:49.920 Please check out our very fun interview with Delaney Williams. 1:33:52.200 --> 1:33:54.080 I did a stand up show at the Kennedy Center 1:33:54.080 --> 1:33:55.720 a few weeks ago, and I talked to one of 1:33:55.760 --> 1:33:58.559 your former students, like I was doing a radio show. 1:33:58.760 --> 1:34:00.600 I was doing a radio or press or something I 1:34:00.640 --> 1:34:01.200 don't remember. 1:34:01.240 --> 1:34:04.040 And then afterwards she goes by the way and said 1:34:04.040 --> 1:34:06.320 that you were amazing, a great teacher, and like she 1:34:06.360 --> 1:34:07.439 loved working with you. 1:34:07.560 --> 1:34:09.800 Oh, that's very kind of you to say, kind of 1:34:09.800 --> 1:34:12.880 her to say I must have paid her well. 1:34:15.439 --> 1:34:16.200 No, it made us. 1:34:16.080 --> 1:34:18.320 Even more excited because obviously your character one of the 1:34:18.320 --> 1:34:21.639 most evil defense attorneys in the twenty three season history. 1:34:22.120 --> 1:34:24.439 Do people yell at you in the streets or what. 1:34:24.439 --> 1:34:30.400 A little bit? Yeah, I have I have no friends 1:34:30.439 --> 1:34:32.679 on Twitter. I have only enemies, as you can. 1:34:32.760 --> 1:34:35.679 And so yeah, you we we follow you on Twitter, 1:34:35.760 --> 1:34:39.080 our our podcast does and you are very active on there. 1:34:39.160 --> 1:34:41.479 What's your what's the draw to Twitter for you? Do 1:34:41.520 --> 1:34:43.200 you like? Do you just like to get yelled at? 1:34:43.840 --> 1:34:47.400 No? No, no. The Twitter thing kind of came around for 1:34:47.520 --> 1:34:51.320 me when the pandemic happened, just to get out in 1:34:51.360 --> 1:34:53.880 the world. I guess I started getting more active on Twitter, 1:34:53.920 --> 1:34:56.320 and it's you know, it's part of the business for sure. 1:34:56.320 --> 1:34:59.160 And as for you, has taught me a lot. Rishka 1:34:59.200 --> 1:35:01.599 and moren in those guys like, yeah, this is what 1:35:01.640 --> 1:35:01.960 we do. 1:35:02.880 --> 1:35:05.720 Yeah, they're very active on social and the fan the 1:35:05.760 --> 1:35:09.080 fandom is very active too, and I find we find 1:35:09.200 --> 1:35:11.600 sometimes that the fans have a hard time separating the 1:35:11.640 --> 1:35:12.639 actors from the people. 1:35:12.840 --> 1:35:15.559 So yeah, absolutely, I'm sure. 1:35:15.360 --> 1:35:18.360 You do get some unnecessary hate. 1:35:18.560 --> 1:35:21.200 I understand that that's where they're coming from. But uh, 1:35:21.840 --> 1:35:25.400 for the most part, everybody in the end understands that 1:35:25.680 --> 1:35:27.800 you know, the actor is the actor, but it weighs 1:35:27.880 --> 1:35:28.400 on you open. 1:35:28.560 --> 1:35:30.760 But I do always say, because we like to play 1:35:30.760 --> 1:35:33.519 a game like if you're guilty, who are you hiring? 1:35:33.640 --> 1:35:36.679 And I would hire Buchanan if I needed to get 1:35:37.080 --> 1:35:38.160 we go away with murder. 1:35:40.240 --> 1:35:43.200 Oh so only if you're guilty is what you said. 1:35:43.360 --> 1:35:46.599 Yeah, if I didn't do it, I would go for 1:35:46.760 --> 1:35:49.040 one of the like like an Annie Potts whoever hers, 1:35:49.200 --> 1:35:50.439 you know, like a do gooder? 1:35:51.040 --> 1:35:54.800 Sure, sure I got so that you automatically have the 1:35:55.000 --> 1:35:58.519 end with the jury, then yeah we like her. 1:35:59.360 --> 1:35:59.839 Yeah. 1:36:00.080 --> 1:36:02.760 So have you ever like, were there any scripts that 1:36:02.840 --> 1:36:06.400 you got that you were like, oh my god, this 1:36:06.439 --> 1:36:08.320 has gone to or like a case that really like 1:36:08.400 --> 1:36:11.760 stuck with you or something that just haunted you, or 1:36:11.800 --> 1:36:13.479 you were like, oh my god, I didn't know shit 1:36:13.560 --> 1:36:16.120 like this happens. Like, are any of your episodes stand 1:36:16.160 --> 1:36:16.519 out to you? 1:36:17.479 --> 1:36:20.720 They all kind of stand out to me, but it's 1:36:20.840 --> 1:36:25.040 probably not going to be for reasons that that the 1:36:25.160 --> 1:36:28.840 viewers would know, because it's all behind the scenes stuff 1:36:28.880 --> 1:36:32.280 that generally it's it or a particular scene where nothing 1:36:32.320 --> 1:36:35.000 really particular happened, but it was an enjoyable day. So 1:36:35.120 --> 1:36:37.320 most of the you know, I don't know how many 1:36:37.360 --> 1:36:37.919 of these. 1:36:37.840 --> 1:36:39.800 Well you could tell us those they'll love those. 1:36:40.360 --> 1:36:43.439 Yeah, okay, we love scoop. 1:36:45.320 --> 1:36:47.720 Well, they're not so much scoop as I just had 1:36:47.800 --> 1:36:51.519 great experiences do it. For instance, this one I had 1:36:51.680 --> 1:36:54.280 the one I was told we were talking about today, 1:36:54.320 --> 1:36:59.480 which is making the rapist. I don't remember the individual 1:36:59.479 --> 1:37:02.120 episodes all that well, especially this one's like six seven 1:37:02.240 --> 1:37:05.439 years old, but I did remember that. I believe it 1:37:05.520 --> 1:37:10.360 was Henry and Kelly Williams, yeah, because I watched it 1:37:10.479 --> 1:37:15.280 last night. So and Joe Biden, President Biden are in 1:37:15.520 --> 1:37:18.160 this episode, and of course he was vice president at 1:37:18.200 --> 1:37:21.240 the time. It sort of stands out for the reason 1:37:21.280 --> 1:37:24.799 that the closest I got to a vice President Biden 1:37:24.960 --> 1:37:28.759 was I got the air conditioning unit that the Secret 1:37:28.800 --> 1:37:31.800 Service used prior to it being in my dressing room, 1:37:31.840 --> 1:37:35.519 so I was close to the air conditioning unit that 1:37:35.640 --> 1:37:40.519 was close to the secret Service unit. That was Yeah. 1:37:40.560 --> 1:37:45.120 And then that also was the episode where I got 1:37:45.160 --> 1:37:49.479 to take my sons to set, which you know, if 1:37:49.520 --> 1:37:53.080 you know any of my work, they're in twenty and 1:37:53.120 --> 1:37:56.160 twenty two now, but they were like fourteen and sixteen then. 1:37:56.800 --> 1:37:59.559 And I live in DC, and most of my works 1:37:59.560 --> 1:38:03.760 in New York or somewhere else, and so they never 1:38:03.800 --> 1:38:05.720 got to see me at work, and they've never got 1:38:05.720 --> 1:38:08.280 to see what I actually shoot, because most of my 1:38:08.479 --> 1:38:13.400 jobs are you know, not safe for young children, including 1:38:13.520 --> 1:38:17.160 as for you. I got to show them a couple 1:38:17.240 --> 1:38:21.840 of minutes once of one where Alec Baldwin was in 1:38:21.880 --> 1:38:24.680 it and he was sitting you know, he was the 1:38:24.680 --> 1:38:26.840 main character of the episode obviously, and he was sitting 1:38:26.920 --> 1:38:28.680 behind me in the gallery. So I showed him a 1:38:28.720 --> 1:38:31.040 few minutes of that, and I was so proud that 1:38:31.080 --> 1:38:33.040 they were going to be like, there his dad doing 1:38:33.080 --> 1:38:36.640 the acting that he says he does. And all they 1:38:36.680 --> 1:38:41.920 could say was you know, Jack Donaghy. I was like, okay, 1:38:42.360 --> 1:38:44.160 so I know where I am. But I got a 1:38:44.240 --> 1:38:46.280 chance to take him to set on that day. 1:38:47.200 --> 1:38:48.920 Did they think it was cool or were they like 1:38:49.000 --> 1:38:50.880 trying to be like, we don't care dad, even though 1:38:50.880 --> 1:38:52.400 probably deep down they thought it was cool? 1:38:52.520 --> 1:38:55.600 Or Craft Services? Did they run with the craft services? 1:38:56.080 --> 1:38:58.080 They got all the swag with the hats and the 1:38:58.160 --> 1:39:01.160 stuff from great folks there. I mean, it's the best 1:39:01.840 --> 1:39:04.920 job an actor can have too. They're just wonderful folks. 1:39:05.280 --> 1:39:08.400 And they didn't get to meet everybody. I know, they 1:39:08.880 --> 1:39:13.320 met Raoul because Raoul and I were working a lot 1:39:13.520 --> 1:39:16.800 uposite each other. There was such a great rapport we 1:39:16.840 --> 1:39:20.160 had doing Barbara and Buchanan stuff, and he worked that 1:39:20.439 --> 1:39:22.799 he was working there and they got to meet him. 1:39:23.320 --> 1:39:25.800 They got to watch from video village. So because it 1:39:25.800 --> 1:39:27.960 was a very busy day, they couldn't even come with 1:39:28.080 --> 1:39:31.840 me to set because Joe Biden was working in the 1:39:31.840 --> 1:39:36.400 morning and so it was very limited. I couldn't even 1:39:36.439 --> 1:39:38.000 bring them with me, so I had to have friends 1:39:38.040 --> 1:39:43.400 bring them over after the Vice President left, and then 1:39:43.400 --> 1:39:46.000 they got to be on set. So wow, it's a 1:39:46.000 --> 1:39:49.080 lot of fun for them, and they enjoyed it. 1:39:49.160 --> 1:39:52.320 I think, I know, that's awesome. 1:39:52.439 --> 1:39:54.360 That's really fun when you get to show your kids 1:39:54.360 --> 1:39:58.360 what you do everything. My kids are really I have 1:39:58.400 --> 1:40:00.960 two kids too, and they're very young, so I imagine one 1:40:01.000 --> 1:40:03.000 day they'll be like, what's podcasting anyway? 1:40:04.600 --> 1:40:06.840 Which is what I asked when I well, it was 1:40:07.000 --> 1:40:13.160 this is the very first podcast I've done. I've only yes, oh, 1:40:14.439 --> 1:40:17.160 I've never listened to one or seen one that which 1:40:17.200 --> 1:40:20.360 is not true. We worked this out last night my 1:40:20.520 --> 1:40:25.240 friend Rebecca. I Rebecca, she talked me through your podcast, said, 1:40:25.280 --> 1:40:27.000 what's going to what's going to happen because I asked, 1:40:27.000 --> 1:40:30.800 what's going to happen on this? And so she talked 1:40:30.840 --> 1:40:33.760 me through it, and we talked about the fact that 1:40:33.840 --> 1:40:36.800 I had never been on one, let alone. I had 1:40:36.840 --> 1:40:39.960 never seen one or heard one, let alone been on one. 1:40:40.360 --> 1:40:44.360 And then I remember that I had actually heard the 1:40:44.400 --> 1:40:48.880 first couple of episodes of Cereal, and I was like, Hey, 1:40:49.400 --> 1:40:51.640 this is great. I'm going to get back to this. 1:40:51.880 --> 1:40:53.400 And that was eight ten years ago. 1:40:53.960 --> 1:40:55.000 That was Oh my god. 1:40:55.360 --> 1:40:57.720 I listened to Cereal through twice and I bet you'd 1:40:57.760 --> 1:40:59.960 really like it because it's all the Baltimore area, which 1:41:00.080 --> 1:41:03.400 is not super far from you, Like it's really really 1:41:03.640 --> 1:41:04.559 Oh I love zero. 1:41:04.720 --> 1:41:07.200 Yeah, well, we're excited to be your first one. 1:41:07.320 --> 1:41:07.920 Oh my god. 1:41:08.240 --> 1:41:08.880 Yeah. 1:41:09.000 --> 1:41:11.920 So I was curious about, like how your whole SVU 1:41:12.200 --> 1:41:15.040 thing started, Like did you audition? 1:41:15.320 --> 1:41:17.679 Like I know you had already been on another another 1:41:17.760 --> 1:41:21.280 law and order before all intent? Yeah, criminal intent. 1:41:21.080 --> 1:41:25.759 Yes, yes, yes, I could not tell you. The vagaries 1:41:25.800 --> 1:41:30.320 of how I get hired are almost always beyond me. 1:41:31.040 --> 1:41:34.920 But I can't tell you that. I read you're both 1:41:34.960 --> 1:41:37.040 your bios. One of you blew an audition. 1:41:37.560 --> 1:41:39.600 Yeah that was me, that was me? 1:41:39.800 --> 1:41:45.479 Yeah, yeah, yeah, congratulations joined the club. Yeah, absolutely certain. 1:41:45.640 --> 1:41:49.519 I blew my first you audition, however long ago. That 1:41:49.720 --> 1:41:54.120 was twenty years ago, but I had I did get 1:41:54.479 --> 1:41:57.840 hired to do Criminal Intent, and I think that led 1:41:57.880 --> 1:42:02.280 to because Warren Light was the showrunner of that show 1:42:02.439 --> 1:42:05.559 when I was hired to do it. And so much fun. 1:42:06.840 --> 1:42:10.840 I got to play the dead body on Law and Order. Yeah, yeah, 1:42:10.880 --> 1:42:12.840 it was so much fun. And another one I couldn't 1:42:12.880 --> 1:42:16.439 show my kids they were so young. But if you 1:42:16.800 --> 1:42:18.760 haven't seen it, I won't spoil it for you. But 1:42:18.880 --> 1:42:22.160 he ends and he doesn't end well, and he ends early. 1:42:22.240 --> 1:42:24.320 So I showed him right up to the part where 1:42:24.400 --> 1:42:29.599 Dad ends. But I'm pretty sure I was hired originally 1:42:29.600 --> 1:42:31.880 when David Platt was the showrunner and I had worked 1:42:31.880 --> 1:42:34.160 with him on the Wire in Baltimore. He had directed 1:42:34.560 --> 1:42:38.200 a couple of episodes, I think, and so my first 1:42:38.280 --> 1:42:45.200 episode as Buchanan was twenty ten something like that, and 1:42:45.680 --> 1:42:48.360 I believe David and Peter Ledo were the showrunners at 1:42:48.360 --> 1:42:50.800 the time, and I think that's how I got on, 1:42:50.880 --> 1:42:54.960 and then I was brought back. I guess they whenever 1:42:54.960 --> 1:42:58.599 they needed someone to defend some rich scumbag from Hudson 1:42:58.680 --> 1:43:04.040 University or something. I'm like, Okay, here I come, must 1:43:04.120 --> 1:43:05.719 be the bad guy for the bad guys. 1:43:05.880 --> 1:43:08.679 So well, not to keep jumping around, but you did 1:43:08.720 --> 1:43:11.880 mention the wire. Okay, how does it feel to be 1:43:11.960 --> 1:43:13.559 in such a beloved show? 1:43:13.600 --> 1:43:15.439 Do your sons? Have your sons watched that? 1:43:15.640 --> 1:43:19.200 I mean, that's considered one of the greatest shows in 1:43:19.200 --> 1:43:20.160 television history. 1:43:20.840 --> 1:43:24.040 Yeah, I hear that, and I agree. I mean, it's 1:43:24.040 --> 1:43:26.160 one of my favorite shows that I've ever seen, And 1:43:26.200 --> 1:43:28.559 of course it's the reason I still work in this business. 1:43:28.560 --> 1:43:31.680 I live in DC, and that opens and open the 1:43:31.720 --> 1:43:35.080 doors for me everywhere, including I'm sure through the law 1:43:35.080 --> 1:43:38.599 and order folks. But they've never seen it as far 1:43:38.640 --> 1:43:41.200 as I know. My eldest might be. He's out the 1:43:41.520 --> 1:43:43.680 doing this thing. But my twenty year old, I know, 1:43:43.760 --> 1:43:47.200 hasn't seen any of it yet. And it's one of 1:43:47.200 --> 1:43:50.240 those things where it's like they're not really interested because 1:43:50.320 --> 1:43:53.519 Dad takes it takes them out of it. But I 1:43:53.520 --> 1:43:56.000 think it's at some point in the future. They both said, yeah, 1:43:56.000 --> 1:43:58.800 we'll watch that. I'm like, great, you know, enjoy it, 1:44:00.800 --> 1:44:04.320 and I did. I haven't seen it in well twenty 1:44:04.400 --> 1:44:09.120 years or fifteen whenever it ended. I remember enjoying watching it, 1:44:09.160 --> 1:44:13.000 which I don't when I'm watching me at all. I 1:44:13.040 --> 1:44:18.160 can barely watch on order SVU because you know, I'm 1:44:18.160 --> 1:44:20.360 that guy who's like, yeah, I can't look at him. 1:44:20.560 --> 1:44:23.280 He's a terrible actor. But so I'm one of those 1:44:23.280 --> 1:44:26.600 people who doesn't like to watch themselves. But it was 1:44:26.720 --> 1:44:29.120 great doing that show. It opened all the doors and 1:44:30.280 --> 1:44:32.639 it's an important story and we're getting ready to release 1:44:32.680 --> 1:44:35.799 another one. I don't know if you know another David 1:44:35.840 --> 1:44:41.040 Simon George pelicanos Ed Burns production set in Baltimore called 1:44:41.439 --> 1:44:44.519 We Own the City. It's coming out on HBO Max 1:44:44.520 --> 1:44:46.599 at the end of April the twenty fifth. 1:44:46.640 --> 1:44:50.880 I believe, oh amazing, And are you a lawyer in 1:44:50.960 --> 1:44:52.200 this or are you a. 1:44:52.200 --> 1:44:57.719 College It's a different story than it's about the city 1:44:57.760 --> 1:45:02.479 of Baltimore, but it's not the fictional telling of It's 1:45:02.520 --> 1:45:09.839 a fictionalized telling of nonfiction. So I play a version 1:45:10.000 --> 1:45:13.720 of Kevin Davis, who is a police commissioner in Baltimore. 1:45:14.439 --> 1:45:18.439 After Freddie Gray happens, he gets promoted to commissioner and 1:45:18.479 --> 1:45:22.840 then while the Gun Trace Task Force is being brought 1:45:22.880 --> 1:45:25.720 out into the public. So I played Kevin Davis during 1:45:25.720 --> 1:45:29.479 those couple of years. I think it's two thousand and fifteen, sixteen, 1:45:29.520 --> 1:45:30.760 seventeen eighteen right in there. 1:45:31.280 --> 1:45:33.800 So Kevin Davis is a real person that is really 1:45:33.800 --> 1:45:35.320 better and you're playing this real person. 1:45:35.360 --> 1:45:38.559 Okay, guys, John Burnhal is playing a real person. Josh 1:45:38.680 --> 1:45:42.160 Charles is playing a real person. Jamie Hector. These are 1:45:42.160 --> 1:45:45.439 the leads of the series are Jamie Hector from the 1:45:45.479 --> 1:45:47.200 Wire and. 1:45:47.360 --> 1:45:50.080 Boh and he's from Bosh right, He's obsess. 1:45:50.720 --> 1:45:52.800 He was just in an episode no, but he was 1:45:52.920 --> 1:45:54.840 just in an episode of SVU that we covered. 1:45:54.880 --> 1:45:57.040 He was in an SDU episode a long time ago. 1:45:57.120 --> 1:45:58.400 I'm just making connections. 1:46:00.600 --> 1:46:04.840 So those they are playing a real folks and Umi 1:46:04.920 --> 1:46:09.240 Masako is playing I don't know. You'd have to ask 1:46:09.280 --> 1:46:13.040 the writers, but I think it's an amalgamation of people 1:46:13.120 --> 1:46:15.439 who are central to telling the story and. 1:46:15.400 --> 1:46:18.519 How's the prep work to playing a real person versus, 1:46:18.560 --> 1:46:19.480 you know, a Buchanan. 1:46:20.439 --> 1:46:24.679 I got a chance to meet Kevin and it was great. 1:46:24.720 --> 1:46:29.200 It was very helpful because I recorded some conversation with 1:46:29.280 --> 1:46:33.559 him in some video and there's video of him not 1:46:33.640 --> 1:46:36.400 actually playing him. I'm still playing a version of him, 1:46:36.479 --> 1:46:40.280 but it allows me to as the actor and I'm 1:46:40.280 --> 1:46:44.840 getting a little actory here, but it allowed me to 1:46:44.880 --> 1:46:48.679 just keep reminding myself not to act, not to create 1:46:49.120 --> 1:46:53.680 any more character than the man I knew and know 1:46:53.920 --> 1:46:57.519 Kevin Davis. And in this particular telling of the story, 1:46:57.520 --> 1:47:00.559 it's also you know, these are all the people. 1:47:00.640 --> 1:47:02.559 But then on the opposite side of that is like 1:47:02.600 --> 1:47:05.559 a Buchanan type character. How did you how do you like, 1:47:05.600 --> 1:47:08.439 I'm I'm I'm curious as to like how much of 1:47:08.479 --> 1:47:11.320 that is on the page versus what you put into it, 1:47:11.320 --> 1:47:13.960 because like when you're in this episode, I'm sure you 1:47:13.960 --> 1:47:15.880 don't remember because it was so long ago, but like 1:47:16.240 --> 1:47:18.519 you have this like you're you're interviewing this like team 1:47:18.680 --> 1:47:20.760 kid on the stand, you're about to cross examinem and 1:47:20.800 --> 1:47:24.360 you go, hello, Charlie. You do this like little condescending 1:47:24.439 --> 1:47:27.720 wave like you're about to like you're about to destroy 1:47:27.920 --> 1:47:28.439 this kid. 1:47:28.720 --> 1:47:30.840 And I just wonder, like, I'm like, is that on 1:47:30.880 --> 1:47:31.439 the page? 1:47:31.560 --> 1:47:32.240 Is that you? 1:47:32.439 --> 1:47:32.519 Like? 1:47:32.640 --> 1:47:34.400 How how did you create Buchanan? 1:47:34.520 --> 1:47:36.519 Like versus what did they give you? What did they 1:47:36.520 --> 1:47:36.920 tell you? 1:47:37.520 --> 1:47:43.280 Well after the first episode or two, and the things 1:47:43.280 --> 1:47:47.880 I guess I had brought to that character, they sort 1:47:47.880 --> 1:47:51.240 of when it was Buchanan they were writing for. I 1:47:51.280 --> 1:47:57.320 think they wrote towards that sort of uh disposition and 1:47:57.439 --> 1:48:01.400 those sort of tactics, and then you play them. I mean, 1:48:01.520 --> 1:48:05.880 for instance, in that I remember that this episode. I 1:48:05.920 --> 1:48:10.840 remember also because the guests were fabulous. Henry was fabulous, 1:48:11.439 --> 1:48:15.760 Kelly Williams is just amazing, and this kid, Cody I 1:48:15.800 --> 1:48:19.479 think his name is, who played Charlie. I just saw 1:48:19.560 --> 1:48:24.120 him again in Mayor of Eastown. He was fabulous and 1:48:25.560 --> 1:48:29.400 he was fabulous. He gave an amazing performance in this, 1:48:29.680 --> 1:48:32.600 and it was so it was easy for me to 1:48:32.840 --> 1:48:36.200 take what was you know, you know, it's minimal in 1:48:36.240 --> 1:48:41.320 the script, what they give you, but you understand the 1:48:41.400 --> 1:48:43.719 sense of it, or at least I try to understand 1:48:43.720 --> 1:48:45.400 the sense of it. You try and create the real 1:48:45.439 --> 1:48:49.519 life of that moment. So knowing who the character of 1:48:49.640 --> 1:48:55.320 Charlie was and how best, how best Buchanan might approach him, 1:48:55.400 --> 1:48:57.840 and that's where that came from, is to like, get 1:48:57.880 --> 1:49:02.320 on Charlie's good side, I remember that, so he'd be 1:49:02.360 --> 1:49:05.000 as friendly to me, and then he gave up the goods. 1:49:04.800 --> 1:49:07.960 So as it were, well, yeah, we love an in 1:49:08.000 --> 1:49:11.080 court confession, We love an in court breakdown. 1:49:11.479 --> 1:49:13.200 Oh yeah, it's the best stuff. 1:49:13.720 --> 1:49:16.400 How important is it for you to like, like or 1:49:16.439 --> 1:49:19.800 empathize with your character? Do you find goodness in him? 1:49:19.840 --> 1:49:22.200 Like do you have a background where he goes home 1:49:22.479 --> 1:49:25.439 or you're able to be like, this guy's kind of 1:49:25.560 --> 1:49:27.679 evil and loves money and I'm here in this moment, 1:49:28.160 --> 1:49:28.760 how do you do that? 1:49:29.479 --> 1:49:32.880 One of my a tenant I lived by. His perspective 1:49:32.960 --> 1:49:38.120 is everything. And you know, especially when you you know, 1:49:38.240 --> 1:49:44.040 I play nothing but generally bad characters, and that people 1:49:44.080 --> 1:49:46.599 that are perceived as bad from the outside. And I 1:49:46.760 --> 1:49:49.160 understand that. When I get hired, I understand that that's 1:49:49.200 --> 1:49:53.920 all I read for. I also understand that to play him, 1:49:54.120 --> 1:49:57.160 And this is something I do when I teach acting. 1:49:58.240 --> 1:50:00.639 I start with the idea that somebody has to play Hitler. 1:50:01.400 --> 1:50:05.760 And if you have to play Hitler, you have to 1:50:05.920 --> 1:50:08.839 believe like Hitler believes, and you have to think Hitler's 1:50:08.920 --> 1:50:11.719 doing the right thing when in everything that Hitler does. 1:50:12.600 --> 1:50:15.280 And so I'm not comparing Buchanan to Hitler. I think 1:50:15.320 --> 1:50:18.640 Buchanan is defending the sixth Amendment and working in the 1:50:18.680 --> 1:50:23.439 adversarial court system the way he's supposed to. But the 1:50:23.520 --> 1:50:27.360 concept remains the same, and that is somebody has to 1:50:27.400 --> 1:50:31.920 play the person that me personally I could not stand. 1:50:33.400 --> 1:50:38.400 You know, in real life, I think is an evil, evil, evil, evil, 1:50:38.680 --> 1:50:42.360 evil human being. And so to do that, you have 1:50:42.439 --> 1:50:45.120 to believe what he believes, and you have to like 1:50:45.200 --> 1:50:47.160 what he likes, and you have to like the fact 1:50:47.160 --> 1:50:49.479 that you have to kind of assume that he likes 1:50:49.520 --> 1:50:52.160 what he's doing, that he thinks he's doing good. We 1:50:52.240 --> 1:50:58.920 have several examples of that currently around the world that 1:50:59.280 --> 1:51:03.200 are causing more than consternation. So let's not go there. 1:51:03.720 --> 1:51:05.880 Yeah, yeah, I'll switch it up now. 1:51:06.600 --> 1:51:09.840 You mentioned you mentioned Kelly Williams, and you know, so 1:51:09.920 --> 1:51:12.519 many amazing guest stars and cast members are on this show, 1:51:13.080 --> 1:51:17.439 and you get to see people in flexing. Those courtrooms 1:51:17.439 --> 1:51:20.080 seems are hard and emotional and people are breaking down 1:51:20.120 --> 1:51:24.080 and yelling. So are there any performances in your history 1:51:24.120 --> 1:51:26.519 that you remember or other people outside of Kelly that 1:51:26.560 --> 1:51:29.240 you were really excited to work with? H? 1:51:29.880 --> 1:51:32.800 Oh God, Almost every single time I go oh that 1:51:33.720 --> 1:51:37.240 she I wanted to. Oh yes, every single time I 1:51:37.280 --> 1:51:42.439 see the name so and why wouldn't you? And of 1:51:42.479 --> 1:51:45.040 course it starts from the top. I mean, I'm sure, 1:51:45.080 --> 1:51:47.360 you've probably heard it before, but Mariska is a pretty 1:51:47.360 --> 1:51:51.800 good person. She is absolutely the greatest human being I've 1:51:51.800 --> 1:51:55.320 ever met in this business and probably in the world. 1:51:55.560 --> 1:51:59.040 So are one of them in the world anyway. And 1:52:00.320 --> 1:52:01.840 I don't know, I'm probably not the only one who 1:52:01.840 --> 1:52:05.800 says that, but she is kind of amazing. And it 1:52:05.920 --> 1:52:10.080 starts with her, but it's everyone around her too, and 1:52:10.280 --> 1:52:16.880 and Kelly and Ice and Peter and Danny and Chris 1:52:16.600 --> 1:52:19.800 and you know, on and on. It's the best job 1:52:19.920 --> 1:52:22.519 I've ever had. They're just good folks. And so what 1:52:22.640 --> 1:52:24.280 was the question? I think I went somewhere else. 1:52:24.479 --> 1:52:25.160 No, you did it. 1:52:25.200 --> 1:52:27.800 I said, are there any like performances or people you 1:52:27.840 --> 1:52:30.679 were excited to work with? And it seems like everyone 1:52:30.720 --> 1:52:33.320 and you love the job and Marishka is a queen is. 1:52:33.439 --> 1:52:36.679 Oh my gosh, Well, isn't that actually the answer? 1:52:36.800 --> 1:52:39.960 Yeah, you totally answered it. Yeah. 1:52:40.000 --> 1:52:42.439 We actually just heard the same thing from a season 1:52:42.640 --> 1:52:44.519 from a writer on the show that we interviewed and 1:52:44.520 --> 1:52:47.519 who also said that you are the very opposite of 1:52:47.560 --> 1:52:50.800 your characters. So you know, the rap is your reputation 1:52:50.880 --> 1:52:52.600 is getting out there that you're a nice person and 1:52:52.640 --> 1:52:55.479 you're not Buchanan, but I like, so we like we 1:52:55.520 --> 1:52:58.320 also just watched We're covering We're covering another episode where 1:52:58.320 --> 1:53:02.519 you you know, you're grilling Scherie applebe on the stand 1:53:02.880 --> 1:53:04.920 in like the Mill like she was in the military 1:53:04.960 --> 1:53:07.320 in the Coastguard and is raped and then like Hannah 1:53:07.320 --> 1:53:10.400 Marx plays this rape victim who's it does porn and 1:53:10.439 --> 1:53:13.040 like you have to like go up against these victims 1:53:13.080 --> 1:53:15.920 and like yell at them, and then what happens when 1:53:15.960 --> 1:53:18.160 they yell cut? Are you guys like hey, like are 1:53:18.160 --> 1:53:20.080 you making jokes or are you staying in it or 1:53:20.160 --> 1:53:21.519 like what's your what's your thing? 1:53:23.439 --> 1:53:27.280 In the moment between takes and during the scenes, I 1:53:27.439 --> 1:53:29.280 kind of stay away from the victims and I'm going 1:53:29.320 --> 1:53:32.760 to leave them alone, the actors playing the victims, and 1:53:32.880 --> 1:53:35.080 I think they want to stay away from me. But 1:53:35.240 --> 1:53:39.519 usually it's it's, uh, you know, it's cordial because it's 1:53:39.520 --> 1:53:43.080 the business we're all working, right. It reminds me of 1:53:43.360 --> 1:53:49.360 I believe my very first episode was it was the 1:53:49.400 --> 1:53:51.080 one with Misha. 1:53:50.760 --> 1:53:53.760 Barton yeap that Savior. 1:53:53.880 --> 1:53:58.639 Okay, So Misha is on the stand and we're trying 1:53:58.680 --> 1:54:01.080 to get the scene the two of us flowing better 1:54:01.240 --> 1:54:06.439 because we need the drama. Uh, And I got the 1:54:06.680 --> 1:54:09.719 nod from the powers that be to go off script 1:54:09.760 --> 1:54:15.120 and start saying very very very vile things to catch 1:54:15.120 --> 1:54:19.759 her off guard and to get you know, another reaction 1:54:19.880 --> 1:54:22.960 to whatever they were getting. So it was kind of 1:54:23.000 --> 1:54:26.559 the best and kind of the worst day because I 1:54:26.600 --> 1:54:29.400 had to say some really really nasty things. 1:54:29.439 --> 1:54:31.160 But I mean we just like we've talked to some 1:54:31.160 --> 1:54:33.560 people that are like, yeah, in between takes, Raoul is 1:54:33.600 --> 1:54:35.720 like singing l miz. I mean, do different people have 1:54:35.800 --> 1:54:38.480 all their different like you know things. So it's like, 1:54:38.560 --> 1:54:40.400 I'm just curious about your thing. But I think that's 1:54:40.400 --> 1:54:42.960 interesting that you're like, I'm just gonna stay away from 1:54:43.000 --> 1:54:45.600 the like the people playing the victim just until we're done, 1:54:45.680 --> 1:54:49.360 because like maybe they're playing it really method and you're not. 1:54:50.040 --> 1:54:52.200 You're not somebody any woman wants to see when they're 1:54:52.240 --> 1:54:52.800 on the stand. 1:54:53.400 --> 1:54:56.440 Yeah, well, there's some freedom when you're the regular and 1:54:56.440 --> 1:55:02.440 you're there every day, and that is Oh, he's just great. 1:55:02.560 --> 1:55:05.640 He is just as chill as he could possibly be 1:55:05.640 --> 1:55:08.000 between texts, and a lot of folks are like that. 1:55:08.040 --> 1:55:11.480 Peter can do that too, and everybody. Yeah, well, when 1:55:11.480 --> 1:55:15.440 you're there regularly because you have that that luxury of 1:55:15.760 --> 1:55:18.520 space and time, and but I have to stay in 1:55:18.600 --> 1:55:20.440 it because I have to nail it today. 1:55:20.400 --> 1:55:22.680 Yeah, because we need you back. 1:55:22.840 --> 1:55:26.840 We need you and we do too. Yes, bring back 1:55:26.880 --> 1:55:29.560 Buchan if you can in for da That's what I say. 1:55:29.720 --> 1:55:33.480 Oh God, because we covered your last one as well. 1:55:33.520 --> 1:55:35.640 I deserve some loving too. We did that on our 1:55:35.680 --> 1:55:39.640 podcast too. Oh really Yeah, we talked to Lee Hubila 1:55:40.360 --> 1:55:45.200 the victim that you were probably me too, because I. 1:55:45.320 --> 1:55:46.760 Was, yeah, that's what I do. 1:55:46.760 --> 1:55:48.760 Do you ever, like in your real life, like if 1:55:48.760 --> 1:55:51.480 you're dealing with like an annoying person, like whip out 1:55:51.480 --> 1:55:52.360 some of that Buchanan. 1:55:52.720 --> 1:55:54.280 Do you ever like tap into Buchanan? 1:55:55.480 --> 1:55:58.360 I try to go the other directions because mostly the 1:56:00.560 --> 1:56:06.480 knowing people are expecting you can. So yeah, killing with kindness, Yeah, 1:56:06.840 --> 1:56:09.440 like you know that's you know, that's somebody that I 1:56:09.520 --> 1:56:13.080 play on TV. But you know I'm just the guy 1:56:13.120 --> 1:56:14.000 walking down the street. 1:56:14.320 --> 1:56:16.800 So we're definitely getting that vibe. 1:56:16.880 --> 1:56:19.480 Yes, trying to get you to be mean, but you're 1:56:19.480 --> 1:56:20.080 not doing it. 1:56:20.440 --> 1:56:23.040 Okay, I could be mean. 1:56:23.760 --> 1:56:25.440 I don't want to. I don't want it, too scared, 1:56:25.520 --> 1:56:28.480 So we're in this wheel house you're always like, you know, 1:56:28.760 --> 1:56:32.960 you're someone in the justice system that's being shady. What 1:56:33.200 --> 1:56:35.960 uh do you have a dream role character? Do you 1:56:35.960 --> 1:56:40.600 ever want a script to come in that's like fun dad, sweet, sweet, 1:56:40.600 --> 1:56:42.440 sit calm dad, Like, is there something you're like, can 1:56:42.480 --> 1:56:44.680 I just please fucking play this type of person? 1:56:45.520 --> 1:56:51.320 Yeah? I think that probably has come across already. You know, 1:56:51.480 --> 1:56:56.880 I play this guy, but it's like the straight offers 1:56:56.920 --> 1:56:59.840 you get, Okay, the character that I get anyway, the 1:57:00.120 --> 1:57:04.400 character is Harvey Weinstein, but with a bag over his 1:57:04.400 --> 1:57:08.520 head so we won't even see your face. And I'm like, Okay, 1:57:08.720 --> 1:57:10.960 I get it. I play that guy. I get it. 1:57:11.200 --> 1:57:16.360 Let's let's try something else, okay, anything else. So yeah, 1:57:16.160 --> 1:57:21.320 the dream role is the dream role is the next role? Yeah, 1:57:21.360 --> 1:57:22.839 you know for the journeyman actors. 1:57:22.840 --> 1:57:26.440 So I'm not gonna pooh pooh on my niche, you 1:57:26.480 --> 1:57:30.080 know what I mean. But I am also open to 1:57:30.160 --> 1:57:31.080 other possibilities. 1:57:31.200 --> 1:57:34.520 If you're in casting, Delaney Williams available to play your. 1:57:34.440 --> 1:57:37.200 Next dad, college professor. 1:57:36.840 --> 1:57:38.720 College inspiring college professor. 1:57:39.080 --> 1:57:39.960 That's right, that's right. 1:57:40.280 --> 1:57:43.200 Well, you know, sometimes though with the defense attorneys, we 1:57:43.280 --> 1:57:46.520 see a little crack or their heart softens or something 1:57:46.560 --> 1:57:49.320 happens to them and they need the detective's help. So 1:57:49.400 --> 1:57:51.920 maybe something like that will happen, where a case will 1:57:51.960 --> 1:57:54.800 break you and you'll be like, I can't do this. 1:57:54.840 --> 1:57:58.080 Anymore, you know, from your mouth to Dicky. 1:57:57.800 --> 1:58:01.680 Yeah, you can't go prophet and starts doing pro bo 1:58:01.800 --> 1:58:02.160 no work. 1:58:02.880 --> 1:58:03.680 That's what I'm saying. 1:58:03.920 --> 1:58:07.920 Why not, Why couldn't he be Why couldn't he be? Well? 1:58:07.960 --> 1:58:08.960 Because shover Langham. 1:58:09.000 --> 1:58:11.600 You know Murska's husband, Peter, he started out as like 1:58:11.720 --> 1:58:13.040 this nasty defense attorney. 1:58:13.120 --> 1:58:13.840 By the end he's. 1:58:13.760 --> 1:58:18.800 Helping Olivia get baby Noah, and he does pro bon 1:58:18.920 --> 1:58:20.880 no work and starts helping. So you know there's a 1:58:20.920 --> 1:58:23.000 true they flirt. Now we'll see what happens. 1:58:24.640 --> 1:58:27.400 Oh, so are you what do they call it shipping them? No? 1:58:27.600 --> 1:58:29.360 No, no, no, I'm open ownership. 1:58:29.520 --> 1:58:32.600 We don't ship, but I hope when the show ends 1:58:32.680 --> 1:58:36.360 one day, I want Olivia with a man who deserves her. 1:58:36.960 --> 1:58:39.520 But you know, I'm not I'm not stuck on who 1:58:39.600 --> 1:58:39.840 it is. 1:58:40.440 --> 1:58:42.000 But we don't think it's to be Stabler. 1:58:42.120 --> 1:58:44.680 No, not Stabler, so not Stabler. 1:58:44.800 --> 1:58:48.240 But okay, I'm just gonna throw this out there. Don't 1:58:48.360 --> 1:58:54.280 don't call me crazy John if you can't Okay, okay, 1:58:56.840 --> 1:58:57.680 that's not gonna happen. 1:58:57.720 --> 1:59:00.320 So we're thinking hilarious shark jump for us. 1:59:00.960 --> 1:59:03.840 That would be amazing, that would be perfect. 1:59:05.360 --> 1:59:09.400 For this actor. But the the person you think she 1:59:09.480 --> 1:59:11.200 should be with is who she is. 1:59:11.280 --> 1:59:14.120 He in her life we don't know yet. We don't 1:59:14.120 --> 1:59:17.080 know if because we liked Ed Tucker but then they 1:59:17.320 --> 1:59:21.800 killed him off. But Cassidy is hot but too damaged 1:59:21.880 --> 1:59:23.800 for her. And I think Peter, I mean, it would 1:59:23.800 --> 1:59:25.320 be fun if she ended up with her real life 1:59:25.760 --> 1:59:26.440 husband on the show. 1:59:26.440 --> 1:59:28.520 I wouldn't I think that should be fun. Or it's 1:59:28.560 --> 1:59:29.600 somebody that we haven't met. 1:59:29.560 --> 1:59:32.240 Yet who's rich, who's gonna sweep her to Paris and 1:59:32.400 --> 1:59:34.400 she doesn't have to worry about anything anymore. 1:59:36.200 --> 1:59:40.400 Well, I'm pulling for Peter myself, but I don't. 1:59:40.200 --> 1:59:41.600 Know if you watch like we do. 1:59:41.760 --> 1:59:44.440 But I just caught up and the newest but the 1:59:44.520 --> 1:59:47.280 Kelly Giddish and Peter Scaraveno are together now. 1:59:47.680 --> 1:59:51.600 Yes that at the end of last year. They the 1:59:52.120 --> 1:59:54.040 end of last year, yes, right. 1:59:54.040 --> 1:59:57.640 Now, like uh, you know, CARIESI took her to meet 1:59:57.680 --> 1:59:59.480 his family for Italians dinner. 1:59:59.720 --> 2:00:01.840 So are progressing, which. 2:00:01.760 --> 2:00:05.280 Is it, and so you want that one. I want 2:00:05.320 --> 2:00:06.720 that one too, I do, I do. 2:00:07.000 --> 2:00:09.360 Yeah to the journey. 2:00:09.640 --> 2:00:10.040 I like that. 2:00:10.160 --> 2:00:11.440 You're into the ships this. 2:00:11.720 --> 2:00:16.720 Yeah, Now I'm wondering about Finn. Wait a minute, about. 2:00:16.520 --> 2:00:19.440 Ice have Yeah, he didn't got married, but well he 2:00:19.440 --> 2:00:23.360 didn't get married, he got engaged and then they had 2:00:23.560 --> 2:00:26.760 they had a wedding. But then at the wedding they decided, 2:00:27.160 --> 2:00:29.000 we don't really want to get married, we don't really care. 2:00:29.200 --> 2:00:31.200 But everybody drink and eat and let's have a fun time. 2:00:31.320 --> 2:00:33.240 So their wedding turned into a party, and that's where 2:00:33.280 --> 2:00:34.000 rollin's increased. 2:00:34.040 --> 2:00:35.720 And it was Jennifer Esposito. 2:00:36.320 --> 2:00:40.520 Yeah, oh yeah, yeah, Oh that's fabulous. So are they 2:00:40.600 --> 2:00:41.200 together then? 2:00:41.400 --> 2:00:43.440 Yeah, they're together now, Finn. 2:00:43.520 --> 2:00:46.240 So everybody's settling down at the sixteenth precincts. 2:00:46.360 --> 2:00:49.959 Oh my gosh, after twenty three years. You should start. 2:00:49.840 --> 2:00:57.440 Nesting after twenty three years. Seriously, that's so funny. 2:00:57.520 --> 2:01:01.360 It's kind of amazing that that. And I love that 2:01:01.840 --> 2:01:05.440 the original is back the mother Ship, mostly because I've 2:01:05.480 --> 2:01:06.760 never worked on it and I'd love to. 2:01:06.920 --> 2:01:08.800 But oh yeah, they should bring you in on the 2:01:08.880 --> 2:01:09.680 mother Ship for sure. 2:01:09.880 --> 2:01:10.560 Yeah, there you go. 2:01:10.880 --> 2:01:12.280 It could be somebody different. 2:01:12.000 --> 2:01:13.520 But yeah, why not? 2:01:13.960 --> 2:01:16.920 But or the new da Oh, I can't see you 2:01:17.040 --> 2:01:19.320 as a husband that they think that you did it 2:01:19.600 --> 2:01:20.520 but you didn't do it. 2:01:20.640 --> 2:01:21.800 I could see that for out. 2:01:22.080 --> 2:01:25.080 Oh yeah, absolutely, let's do that. Let's get that wrong. 2:01:25.720 --> 2:01:28.600 Oh and uh. The other thing I remember about that 2:01:28.720 --> 2:01:32.880 episode so well was it started off with the speech 2:01:33.520 --> 2:01:40.040 by Vice President Biden and addressing something that Marishka works 2:01:40.400 --> 2:01:46.200 in her Joyful Heart Foundation's that's the name, and they 2:01:46.280 --> 2:01:49.360 do a lot of work in ending the backlog, and 2:01:49.520 --> 2:01:52.200 I thought that was very cool. It worked out great. 2:01:52.680 --> 2:01:54.880 Yeah, so we have had a lot of listeners be like, 2:01:55.000 --> 2:01:57.840 do this episode and get Biden. We're like, I don't 2:01:57.880 --> 2:01:59.720 think that's gonna yeah. 2:02:00.160 --> 2:02:03.400 Well, well when I got the call, I was doing podcasts. 2:02:05.080 --> 2:02:07.000 Wait, when I got the call to do this, I 2:02:07.120 --> 2:02:12.040 was like, so I beat out Joe bid nice, I'll 2:02:12.120 --> 2:02:14.120 take that. So you just burst my bubble. 2:02:14.920 --> 2:02:19.280 No, he was never even a thought for us. What 2:02:19.360 --> 2:02:21.280 would he even say? I went on and I made 2:02:21.320 --> 2:02:23.000 a speech that would be a pretty boring interview. 2:02:23.080 --> 2:02:23.800 This is much better. 2:02:24.320 --> 2:02:29.840 Well, I don't know the yes. But another favorite thing 2:02:29.880 --> 2:02:33.800 I remember these memories, Yes, let me that, but the 2:02:33.960 --> 2:02:38.800 call sheet on that day had marishka Ice, Kelly Peter, 2:02:39.760 --> 2:02:42.480 Vice President Biden, and John Buchanan on you. I was 2:02:42.560 --> 2:02:43.800 like this, I'm keeping this. 2:02:44.080 --> 2:02:48.680 Yeah, yeah, that's a framer. Yeah, I'm so glad you 2:02:48.760 --> 2:02:51.040 took it. Caara actually made fun of me. 2:02:51.120 --> 2:02:53.320 I always ask people like, oh, did you steal something 2:02:53.360 --> 2:02:55.440 from set or a memory or something, And you're the 2:02:55.480 --> 2:02:57.560 first person and you took the call sheet, and I 2:02:57.600 --> 2:02:58.600 am so happy. 2:03:00.120 --> 2:03:01.560 I think I did. I'm sure I did. 2:03:01.600 --> 2:03:01.800 I know. 2:03:01.880 --> 2:03:03.520 I took a picture of it at the very end. 2:03:03.680 --> 2:03:06.400 Yeah, it's in the memory box somewhere. I'm sure. 2:03:06.560 --> 2:03:10.760 Yeah. Absolutely. It's like, okay, well, if I'm below on 2:03:10.880 --> 2:03:12.800 the cast list, I think rawl was on there too. 2:03:12.920 --> 2:03:16.840 You know, if I'm below on the cast list, just 2:03:16.960 --> 2:03:20.000 below Vice President Biden, then I'm doing okay. Yeah. 2:03:21.560 --> 2:03:25.680 We've had a couple of like not villainous, but you know, 2:03:25.800 --> 2:03:29.320 people that are not as beloved characters, such as John 2:03:29.320 --> 2:03:31.480 Buchanan on our podcast lately, and I feel like we're 2:03:31.520 --> 2:03:33.520 really showing the real side of these. 2:03:33.560 --> 2:03:36.240 Actors so people can stop screaming at them in the streets. 2:03:36.280 --> 2:03:38.560 And I'm I think we're doing a service. 2:03:39.000 --> 2:03:44.560 This is key. Let's get that word out there. But again, 2:03:44.680 --> 2:03:49.480 it's almost always, you know, on the Twitter it's I 2:03:49.600 --> 2:03:51.400 want to push you off the top of the building. 2:03:51.400 --> 2:03:53.680 I want to get you with my truck if I 2:03:53.760 --> 2:03:56.040 ever see Buchanan in the street, you know, that sort 2:03:56.080 --> 2:03:56.360 of thing. 2:03:57.280 --> 2:03:59.320 Like it's just the kind of thing that would never 2:03:59.440 --> 2:04:01.800 even occur me to know. But my mom's like that, 2:04:02.080 --> 2:04:04.040 like she can't look at Willem Defoe. She does not 2:04:04.160 --> 2:04:05.720 trust him, she wants nothing. 2:04:05.520 --> 2:04:06.120 To do with him. 2:04:06.760 --> 2:04:07.440 It's like a mom. 2:04:08.520 --> 2:04:11.520 Yeah, but you changed your Twitter bio. 2:04:11.680 --> 2:04:13.280 You U still have a really funny one that was 2:04:13.360 --> 2:04:16.400 like I played the character you love to hate, but 2:04:16.600 --> 2:04:18.640 it was like a fun little riddle you had, but 2:04:18.760 --> 2:04:19.240 you changed. 2:04:19.400 --> 2:04:19.600 Yeah. 2:04:19.800 --> 2:04:21.680 I don't remember the riddle, but it was cute. I 2:04:21.800 --> 2:04:22.800 remember being excited. 2:04:23.680 --> 2:04:27.040 Thank you. I think, yeah, well it was when you 2:04:27.160 --> 2:04:30.440 play the guy that people love to hate. That's what 2:04:30.800 --> 2:04:33.840 I think it meant. Yeah, so you're saying I should 2:04:33.880 --> 2:04:35.760 put it back. No, no, you do you? 2:04:42.480 --> 2:04:45.160 Oh my gosh, he is so I cannot believe that 2:04:45.280 --> 2:04:48.200 was his first podcast. I know that he's gonna be 2:04:48.240 --> 2:04:52.640 hooked now. And he follows us personally on the ground. 2:04:53.000 --> 2:04:53.120 Yea. 2:04:53.120 --> 2:04:55.880 And it was just like an honor to be able 2:04:55.960 --> 2:04:59.400 to be with our like the main one of the 2:04:59.440 --> 2:05:01.800 main defense attorney is one of the most iconic, like 2:05:02.000 --> 2:05:03.880 hated characters of this series. 2:05:04.040 --> 2:05:06.840 So yeah, and this is probably like this is probably 2:05:06.920 --> 2:05:09.080 like a little bit like feels like a stupid thing 2:05:09.160 --> 2:05:12.000 to say, but I almost like respect people's acting so 2:05:12.240 --> 2:05:15.120 much more when I see how opposite of their character 2:05:15.200 --> 2:05:17.760 they are in real life. Like he's like a make 2:05:17.840 --> 2:05:20.640 your skin crawl asshole on that show, and he's just 2:05:20.760 --> 2:05:22.920 like a teddy bear of a man in real life, 2:05:23.000 --> 2:05:26.000 and I'm just like, wow, you really transform into a 2:05:26.040 --> 2:05:27.400 different person completely, you know. 2:05:27.640 --> 2:05:30.000 Yeah, So he loves his kids, he loves the arts, 2:05:30.200 --> 2:05:34.720 he loves DC and honestly, yeah, thank you. 2:05:34.800 --> 2:05:37.080 And a fun name, what's Delaney? Never heard of it? 2:05:37.400 --> 2:05:39.680 Delaney william I mean that I don't know for that 2:05:39.800 --> 2:05:43.880 means that sounds like a Southern like a Southern aristocrat, 2:05:44.000 --> 2:05:49.120 Delaney Williams, But I don't know, Susan incredible, Thank you 2:05:49.280 --> 2:05:52.680 so much. Yeah, thanks for coming on, Delaney. And uh, 2:05:53.920 --> 2:05:56.760 this post mortem of Making a Rapist one of the 2:05:56.800 --> 2:05:59.520 most aggressive episodes we've covered in a while. 2:05:59.800 --> 2:06:05.920 In terms of violence and burning. Yeah, but by the time. 2:06:05.800 --> 2:06:08.800 There's a burning, it it elevates the episode to horrific. 2:06:09.440 --> 2:06:14.680 There's no casual burnings, yeah, except in what's the one 2:06:14.720 --> 2:06:17.400 where the pregnancy packed one? There was a burned band, 2:06:17.520 --> 2:06:21.400 but that that episode's pretty funny anyways, there was a pregnancy, 2:06:21.720 --> 2:06:24.400 there was a burning. Yes, remember there's like a guy 2:06:24.600 --> 2:06:31.160 burning yes streets. Yes, And so that's kind of silly 2:06:31.760 --> 2:06:34.400 in terms of like that one was a little I 2:06:34.440 --> 2:06:35.600 guess that was a funny burn. 2:06:35.680 --> 2:06:37.680 I mean it was kind of a hilarious burning a 2:06:37.720 --> 2:06:38.320 live moment. 2:06:40.520 --> 2:06:41.560 Yeah, I guess. 2:06:41.760 --> 2:06:44.520 Like what we learned from this episode is like I 2:06:44.680 --> 2:06:47.120 really wish the cops would do a better job sometimes 2:06:47.240 --> 2:06:52.920 because these wrongfully convicted people are possibly being turned into 2:06:52.960 --> 2:06:57.240 more hardened criminals when they're incarcerated for you know, decades. 2:06:57.520 --> 2:07:00.680 That's why I have such a hard I'm giving just 2:07:00.800 --> 2:07:04.600 blanket respect to a profession or a type of person 2:07:04.840 --> 2:07:08.400 because we're all like no one likes to work right 2:07:08.800 --> 2:07:10.760 in general, or like a lot of people are bad 2:07:10.800 --> 2:07:11.440 at their jobs. 2:07:11.880 --> 2:07:13.560 So that's why I don't like it when it's. 2:07:13.440 --> 2:07:15.840 Like you're a police, you're the army, you're a doctor, 2:07:15.880 --> 2:07:17.800 you're the best, you're the best, you're a hero, and 2:07:17.880 --> 2:07:21.080 it's like no We're all just people and this is 2:07:21.200 --> 2:07:24.120 just a job. And some of these motherfuckers just won't 2:07:24.640 --> 2:07:27.200 investigate further, or they don't want to work together, and 2:07:27.320 --> 2:07:29.480 they want to go home and eat dinner and watch football, 2:07:30.000 --> 2:07:32.520 and like we have to remember that when we would 2:07:32.560 --> 2:07:35.760 just want to give blanket respect to these people. Yeah, 2:07:36.600 --> 2:07:38.480 and for me, like, I. 2:07:38.520 --> 2:07:43.760 Also learned a lot about like the adolescent interrogation tactics 2:07:43.960 --> 2:07:47.800 are so unethical in my opinion, Like I understand you 2:07:47.880 --> 2:07:49.520 think that this kid might be part of like a 2:07:49.640 --> 2:07:52.680 huge murder, but like he's sixteen years old, he should 2:07:52.680 --> 2:07:54.400 have his parent with him, he should have a lawyer 2:07:54.480 --> 2:07:58.400 with him, and he has below average intelligence. You're taking 2:07:58.440 --> 2:08:02.240 advantage of that. Like it's it's like, I don't know, 2:08:02.360 --> 2:08:05.520 I just think that's pretty gross. And I really hope 2:08:05.560 --> 2:08:09.480 that Brendan Dacy gets to see freedom again in his lifetime, 2:08:10.160 --> 2:08:12.160 because I don't know, I don't think he had anything 2:08:12.200 --> 2:08:13.840 to do with it. Steven Avery, on the other hand, 2:08:14.240 --> 2:08:16.000 you know, I'm sure we'll get our I'm sure we'll 2:08:16.000 --> 2:08:16.760 get our comments. 2:08:17.040 --> 2:08:20.400 Also, you should just eliminate junk yards. You cannot have 2:08:20.480 --> 2:08:23.880 a junk yard or a car lot, or it seems. 2:08:23.680 --> 2:08:27.200 Like a lot of trouble happens, so no more do 2:08:27.440 --> 2:08:31.200 seem so ominous, Like I think it's the car crusher too. 2:08:31.440 --> 2:08:34.640 That's like it feels like almost the same as like 2:08:34.720 --> 2:08:37.240 a cement like when there's someone hides a body in 2:08:37.360 --> 2:08:39.840 like the cement base of a building or something like that. 2:08:39.960 --> 2:08:42.200 It's like, yeah, you're never going to see this body again, 2:08:42.280 --> 2:08:43.360 like we're pulverizing it. 2:08:43.600 --> 2:08:45.880 Like speaking of junk yards. 2:08:46.320 --> 2:08:48.800 The reason it's so fresh in my head, I restarted 2:08:48.920 --> 2:08:51.240 on a plane and now I'm going to continue it casually. 2:08:51.480 --> 2:08:54.160 Now I'm not gonna but I'm going to rewatch Breaking Bad. 2:08:54.960 --> 2:08:55.200 Ah. 2:08:56.200 --> 2:09:00.840 So there is a junk yard murder, crazy scene, Yes, 2:09:01.240 --> 2:09:04.240 I recall. That's wild that you recall because this came 2:09:04.280 --> 2:09:06.120 out like over a decade ago and it was in 2:09:06.200 --> 2:09:08.440 season one, so you know it's a crazy scene. 2:09:08.440 --> 2:09:09.960 When fucking Cara remembers that. 2:09:10.080 --> 2:09:13.040 Yeah, yeah, yeah, because my brain has mostly melted away 2:09:13.120 --> 2:09:15.800 with children, but you know, I do remember that scene 2:09:15.920 --> 2:09:18.160 and Breaking Bad a lot of it sticks in my head. 2:09:18.240 --> 2:09:21.600 It was really such a huge show and like so 2:09:22.080 --> 2:09:23.440 amazing in television. 2:09:23.640 --> 2:09:25.040 It changed the game. 2:09:25.120 --> 2:09:27.480 You know, there's songs from Breaking Bad that I like 2:09:27.600 --> 2:09:32.960 have on playlists really, but I love Yes. Yeah, there's 2:09:33.000 --> 2:09:36.080 a TV on the radio song called DMZ that's in 2:09:36.160 --> 2:09:40.600 an amazing scene of Breaking Bad, and I like love 2:09:40.720 --> 2:09:44.480 listening to it. It's like a very like intense Walter 2:09:44.640 --> 2:09:47.640 White song. I just love Breaking Bad. That's the show 2:09:47.640 --> 2:09:49.920 I would rewatch if I didn't have twenty seasons of 2:09:49.960 --> 2:09:51.920 different television waiting on my DVR for me. 2:09:52.040 --> 2:09:55.920 Right now, I know it is Atlanta just started again. 2:09:56.360 --> 2:09:57.080 I know you mentioned. 2:09:57.120 --> 2:10:00.360 You've mentioned Atlanta so many times. I've never wonted watch it. 2:10:00.840 --> 2:10:03.200 Oh sorry, I'll stop mentioning it. I keep forgetting you. 2:10:04.720 --> 2:10:06.800 I keep bringing up conn Air, so you can keep 2:10:06.840 --> 2:10:11.120 bringing that is, you can keep bringing up at Lama. 2:10:11.480 --> 2:10:15.640 Stop bringing up conn Air. No, but Breaking Bad is. 2:10:16.480 --> 2:10:19.880 Now that you know everything, it's even more genius to 2:10:20.160 --> 2:10:25.000 see all these little moments and oh that's uh, there 2:10:25.120 --> 2:10:25.320 we go. 2:10:25.680 --> 2:10:26.840 That's the beginning of that. 2:10:27.120 --> 2:10:30.120 That's what this proves that they're showing this, they're doing that, 2:10:30.320 --> 2:10:33.920 and so it's even more impressive watching it the second 2:10:34.080 --> 2:10:39.720 time and like seeing all these little moments of character development. 2:10:40.440 --> 2:10:45.080 Well, also, I do one of the series I do 2:10:45.280 --> 2:10:47.840 have is like the most recent two seasons of Better 2:10:47.920 --> 2:10:50.280 called Soler on my DVR because I wanted to stay 2:10:50.320 --> 2:10:52.800 in the Breaking Bad universe. Although it's a very different show. 2:10:53.040 --> 2:10:54.760 I don't know if you would be into it. And 2:10:54.880 --> 2:10:56.840 I do want to say a quick thank you to 2:10:57.040 --> 2:11:00.200 the listeners that have been tagging me and messaging me 2:11:00.680 --> 2:11:02.680 about the fact that there is a new show coming 2:11:02.720 --> 2:11:04.240 out called Bosh Legacy. 2:11:05.440 --> 2:11:07.480 It's like a new season of Bosh. 2:11:08.120 --> 2:11:10.560 It's like on the Roku channel, or it's on like 2:11:10.920 --> 2:11:13.480 imdbast channelers, it's on some random channel, but I think 2:11:13.480 --> 2:11:17.160 I can watch it streaming somewhere and it's like it's 2:11:17.240 --> 2:11:22.360 like Bosh and his daughter like living their law enforcement 2:11:22.480 --> 2:11:24.720 lives like, but they're very different because I think she 2:11:24.880 --> 2:11:26.320 becomes a cop or something. 2:11:26.440 --> 2:11:27.080 I don't remember. 2:11:27.080 --> 2:11:29.800 I don't actually know, but it's it's this like new 2:11:29.880 --> 2:11:32.120 Bosh that everyone's been letting me know about, and I'm 2:11:32.400 --> 2:11:33.960 definitely going to dive in at some point. 2:11:34.200 --> 2:11:36.600 Well, I want to watch El Camino after because I 2:11:36.720 --> 2:11:37.520 never watched that. 2:11:37.920 --> 2:11:38.360 What is that? 2:11:38.960 --> 2:11:40.800 That's the after Breaking Bad? 2:11:40.960 --> 2:11:44.960 I get so, oh it was a movie, but it's 2:11:45.000 --> 2:11:47.000 straight up someone's explaining it to me. It's just like 2:11:47.080 --> 2:11:49.760 what happens to Jesse Pinkman after that final episode, like 2:11:49.800 --> 2:11:51.240 you just get to watch him for two. 2:11:51.120 --> 2:11:53.000 Hours and it's just a movie. 2:11:53.160 --> 2:11:56.320 Okay, KOVI about Pinkman post that show. 2:11:56.240 --> 2:11:58.640 I remember people were just calling it the breaking Bad movie, 2:11:58.680 --> 2:12:00.000 so I think I forgot that it was called. 2:12:00.840 --> 2:12:01.600 But okay, that. 2:12:01.760 --> 2:12:07.280 Sounds fun and yeah whatever, tell us cool things are 2:12:07.360 --> 2:12:10.480 happening and the JK or a nightmare. But this episode, 2:12:10.560 --> 2:12:13.160 the justice system is flawed. And that's another thing that 2:12:13.280 --> 2:12:18.000 bothers me about, just like rape culture in general is 2:12:18.080 --> 2:12:21.120 like this idea, like we know the justice system is flawed, 2:12:21.400 --> 2:12:23.400 we know rich people get away with crimes, we know 2:12:23.480 --> 2:12:25.360 it is racist, we know all this, But as soon 2:12:25.440 --> 2:12:27.880 as it's rape, it's well due process, we got to 2:12:27.920 --> 2:12:30.960 trust the laws and it's ye. But for everything else, 2:12:31.200 --> 2:12:35.080 you say that it's terrible and then you know it's. 2:12:35.040 --> 2:12:36.200 Just like kind of annoying. 2:12:37.640 --> 2:12:37.840 Yeah. 2:12:38.800 --> 2:12:42.040 Well, that segue is kind of into our what would 2:12:42.040 --> 2:12:45.080 Sister Peg do for this week, which is our weekly 2:12:45.160 --> 2:12:48.160 segment where we give you guys an article, a book, 2:12:48.200 --> 2:12:52.760 an organization something to give you more information, or like 2:12:52.840 --> 2:12:54.920 a charity you can donate to just to get more 2:12:54.960 --> 2:12:57.640 information and flesh out like the topic that we covered today, 2:12:58.200 --> 2:13:01.080 and this week, we're going to highlight the Center on 2:13:01.240 --> 2:13:04.680 Wrongful Convictions of Youth, and that is the legal firm 2:13:04.760 --> 2:13:08.120 that is representing Brendan Dacy's case. The CWCY is a 2:13:08.200 --> 2:13:10.920 nonprofit legal clinic that represents children and teenagers who have 2:13:11.000 --> 2:13:14.760 been convicted of crimes they didn't commit. There's literally so 2:13:14.920 --> 2:13:17.320 much information out there about how cops can get false 2:13:17.360 --> 2:13:19.760 confessions from people all the time, and then when you 2:13:19.920 --> 2:13:22.960 lower their age to teens and adolescents, it's just like 2:13:23.600 --> 2:13:25.840 wild that some of these confessions can even be admissible. 2:13:26.040 --> 2:13:29.520 So this organization spearhads national efforts to drive criminal justice 2:13:29.560 --> 2:13:32.720 reforms that will prevent children from making unreliable statements and 2:13:32.920 --> 2:13:40.280 coerced statements during police interrogations. So CWCY and their sister project, 2:13:40.320 --> 2:13:43.280 which is the Center on Wrongful Convictions, have exonerated more 2:13:43.280 --> 2:13:45.160 than fifty people. So if you guys want to learn 2:13:45.200 --> 2:13:47.960 more about them or donate, you can check out the 2:13:48.040 --> 2:13:50.160 link in our show notes. It's way too long for 2:13:50.280 --> 2:13:52.240 me to read on the podcast. 2:13:53.360 --> 2:13:53.960 Thank you for that. 2:13:54.920 --> 2:13:59.280 Next week we'll be covering Military Justice. Another complicated, depressing, 2:13:59.400 --> 2:14:03.640 terrible episode JK very good, but Military Justice Season fifteen, 2:14:03.760 --> 2:14:08.080 Episode eight Watch with us, Hulu, Peacock and anywhere USVU. 2:14:08.400 --> 2:14:10.000 Thank you so much for listening to us. 2:14:10.160 --> 2:14:11.000 See you next week. 2:14:21.240 --> 2:14:23.440 That's Messed Up as an exactly Right production. 2:14:23.880 --> 2:14:25.920 If you have compliments you'd like to give us or 2:14:26.040 --> 2:14:28.240 episodes you'd like us to cover, shoot us an email 2:14:28.320 --> 2:14:30.840 it That's Messed uppod at gmail dot com. 2:14:31.240 --> 2:14:34.360 Follow the podcast on Instagram at That's Messed Up Pod 2:14:34.600 --> 2:14:37.440 and on Twitter at messed Up Pod, and follow us 2:14:37.520 --> 2:14:39.320 personally at Kara Klank and. 2:14:39.520 --> 2:14:40.440 At glitter Cheese. 2:14:40.880 --> 2:14:43.520 As always, please see our show notes for sources and 2:14:43.600 --> 2:14:46.440 more information. Thank you so much to our producer on 2:14:46.600 --> 2:14:50.120 Aalis Nelson, and to our mixer John Bradley, and to 2:14:50.240 --> 2:14:53.720 Henry Kaperski for our theme song and Carly gen Andrews. 2:14:53.400 --> 2:14:54.120 For our artwork. 2:14:54.440 --> 2:14:58.240 Thank you to our executive producers Georgia hard Start, Karen Kilgareff, 2:14:58.320 --> 2:15:00.680 Daniel Kramer, and everybody at a Exactly Right. 2:15:00.640 --> 2:15:04.320 Media Listen, follow and leave us the review on Amazon Music, 2:15:04.480 --> 2:15:08.120 Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts and don't forget. 2:15:08.200 --> 2:15:10.640 You can listen to new episodes one week early on 2:15:10.760 --> 2:15:14.320 Amazon Music or early and ad free by subscribing to 2:15:14.400 --> 2:15:17.880 Wondry Plus in the Wondry App dun dun