1 00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:03,279 Speaker 1: Kesha and the Creepies is a production of I Heart Radio. 2 00:00:03,800 --> 00:00:06,920 Speaker 1: Hey Creepy is Today we are talking to Caroline Watt. 3 00:00:07,360 --> 00:00:10,520 Speaker 1: Dr Caroline Watt is one of the leading para psychologists 4 00:00:10,600 --> 00:00:13,440 Speaker 1: in the world. She's currently a professor of paras psychology 5 00:00:13,520 --> 00:00:16,880 Speaker 1: at the University of Edinburgh in Scotland. So here's the 6 00:00:17,000 --> 00:00:22,800 Speaker 1: creepy backstory. In Andrew Colster and his wife Cynthia killed 7 00:00:22,800 --> 00:00:26,080 Speaker 1: themselves and in a suicide pact, they left their state 8 00:00:26,160 --> 00:00:29,560 Speaker 1: to support the study of the paranormal. This led to 9 00:00:29,640 --> 00:00:33,640 Speaker 1: the creation of the Parapsychology Unit at University of Edinburgh. 10 00:00:33,920 --> 00:00:36,720 Speaker 1: Dr Watt, who are speaking with today, wrote a letter 11 00:00:36,840 --> 00:00:39,000 Speaker 1: to the chair of the unit as she joined the 12 00:00:39,040 --> 00:00:43,000 Speaker 1: Parasychology department upon graduating from the university. Just so you 13 00:00:43,000 --> 00:00:46,000 Speaker 1: guys know, we are across oceans from each other and 14 00:00:46,080 --> 00:00:48,960 Speaker 1: my internet shitty, So there are moments that get a 15 00:00:48,960 --> 00:00:51,880 Speaker 1: little funky but also might just be a ghost. Because 16 00:00:51,880 --> 00:01:09,400 Speaker 1: we're talking about here we saw today here at Cash 17 00:01:09,520 --> 00:01:14,040 Speaker 1: in the Creepies, we have a very special guest. I 18 00:01:14,080 --> 00:01:18,199 Speaker 1: would like to welcome all the way from Edinburgh professor 19 00:01:18,680 --> 00:01:23,199 Speaker 1: and Dr Caroline. What you worked hard for those titles. 20 00:01:23,240 --> 00:01:27,520 Speaker 1: I'm gonna give you both. Oh just call me Caroline. Caroline. Well, 21 00:01:27,760 --> 00:01:30,920 Speaker 1: I'm so excited to have you here to talk to you. 22 00:01:31,800 --> 00:01:35,720 Speaker 1: I have like five billion questions and I think just 23 00:01:35,800 --> 00:01:38,960 Speaker 1: to start off with for our listeners, can you explain 24 00:01:39,240 --> 00:01:43,720 Speaker 1: what parapsychology is. So I'm a professor of parapsychology at 25 00:01:43,840 --> 00:01:50,480 Speaker 1: Edinburg University and parapsychology is a scientific study of paranormal experiences. 26 00:01:51,160 --> 00:01:54,000 Speaker 1: So it's quite unusual thing to find at university. But 27 00:01:54,160 --> 00:01:56,080 Speaker 1: Edinburgh is one of a few places in the world 28 00:01:56,120 --> 00:01:59,440 Speaker 1: where you can study para psychology. Why do you think 29 00:01:59,720 --> 00:02:02,600 Speaker 1: they're out of everywhere in the world. Well, we have 30 00:02:02,680 --> 00:02:04,520 Speaker 1: a bit of a track record. I mean, apart from 31 00:02:04,560 --> 00:02:08,000 Speaker 1: the fact that, of course Scotland has got lots of ghosts. Um. 32 00:02:08,080 --> 00:02:11,040 Speaker 1: We we have a chat record in our our department, 33 00:02:11,120 --> 00:02:14,320 Speaker 1: the psychology department of which is where I work. Um, 34 00:02:14,440 --> 00:02:17,639 Speaker 1: for many years we've had academics at that department who 35 00:02:17,680 --> 00:02:22,040 Speaker 1: have studied the paranormal. So, um, I think Edinburgh's kind 36 00:02:22,040 --> 00:02:23,800 Speaker 1: of got more of an open mind if you like 37 00:02:23,880 --> 00:02:28,480 Speaker 1: to do these ideas than many universities might have and 38 00:02:28,480 --> 00:02:33,200 Speaker 1: then you pivoted into para psychology. That's right. I mean, 39 00:02:33,280 --> 00:02:38,240 Speaker 1: I I got into parapsychology out of curiosity as a psychologist. 40 00:02:38,360 --> 00:02:41,560 Speaker 1: So I did my first degree in psychology, and I 41 00:02:41,680 --> 00:02:46,160 Speaker 1: wasn't taught anything about parapsychology in that degree, but um, 42 00:02:46,200 --> 00:02:48,839 Speaker 1: I knew as a psychologist that lots of people had 43 00:02:48,960 --> 00:02:53,320 Speaker 1: paranormal beliefs and experiences. So I was just really curious 44 00:02:53,480 --> 00:02:57,560 Speaker 1: as a psychologist about what lies behind these experiences, you know, 45 00:02:57,960 --> 00:02:59,880 Speaker 1: is there any truth to them as our the je 46 00:03:00,000 --> 00:03:03,960 Speaker 1: in you and paranormal and psychic abilities. And I suspected 47 00:03:04,040 --> 00:03:06,400 Speaker 1: also that there would also be a lot of psychology 48 00:03:06,440 --> 00:03:09,320 Speaker 1: in these experiences. So it was really curiosity that brought 49 00:03:09,320 --> 00:03:12,120 Speaker 1: me into the field. Well, because I have had some 50 00:03:12,280 --> 00:03:16,640 Speaker 1: strange experiences myself, and sometimes I wonder because I definitely 51 00:03:16,680 --> 00:03:20,600 Speaker 1: have anxiety. So sometimes if something I'm very anxious about 52 00:03:20,720 --> 00:03:24,000 Speaker 1: ends up happening, then am I psychic or am I 53 00:03:24,080 --> 00:03:28,839 Speaker 1: just super anxious and just very prepared for the worst? Yeah? 54 00:03:28,919 --> 00:03:31,560 Speaker 1: I mean that's a good example because for if you 55 00:03:31,680 --> 00:03:35,240 Speaker 1: have something that you're worried about, even subconsciously, it can 56 00:03:35,280 --> 00:03:38,600 Speaker 1: work its way into your mind and into your dreams. 57 00:03:38,600 --> 00:03:41,720 Speaker 1: For instance, So you might dream about something that you're 58 00:03:41,760 --> 00:03:45,040 Speaker 1: you're worried about and if that happens, if it comes 59 00:03:45,040 --> 00:03:47,160 Speaker 1: true the next day, you may feel that you know 60 00:03:47,160 --> 00:03:50,520 Speaker 1: the dream is predicting the future, but you One of 61 00:03:50,560 --> 00:03:52,360 Speaker 1: the things that we found in our research is that 62 00:03:52,440 --> 00:03:55,480 Speaker 1: people dream about all sorts of things, and they tend 63 00:03:55,480 --> 00:03:58,960 Speaker 1: to forget the dreams that don't come true. And so 64 00:03:59,000 --> 00:04:00,880 Speaker 1: most of our dreams don't come true, and we we 65 00:04:00,960 --> 00:04:03,440 Speaker 1: noticed the occasions when they do come true because it's 66 00:04:03,480 --> 00:04:06,480 Speaker 1: really striking and that makes us think, oh, maybe I 67 00:04:06,560 --> 00:04:08,880 Speaker 1: predicted that in my in my dreams. So there is 68 00:04:08,920 --> 00:04:12,320 Speaker 1: some evidence that we forget a lot of our dreams 69 00:04:12,680 --> 00:04:15,360 Speaker 1: and we're a bit selective about what we remember well, 70 00:04:15,480 --> 00:04:17,839 Speaker 1: especially if it does come true. Like you're saying, then 71 00:04:18,120 --> 00:04:21,640 Speaker 1: it feels almost like playing a machine at a casino 72 00:04:21,800 --> 00:04:24,159 Speaker 1: or something where you remember the time you want, but 73 00:04:24,200 --> 00:04:28,560 Speaker 1: there's so many times you didn't exactly exactly. That's a 74 00:04:28,600 --> 00:04:33,680 Speaker 1: good analogy in your field of work, to people scoff 75 00:04:33,800 --> 00:04:36,680 Speaker 1: at you, or is it like how are you? How 76 00:04:36,800 --> 00:04:40,920 Speaker 1: is what you do received in like psychology world, In 77 00:04:41,120 --> 00:04:43,520 Speaker 1: the world where you're dealing with doctors and you're also 78 00:04:43,560 --> 00:04:47,120 Speaker 1: dealing with paranormal people, I'm sure always have a bunch 79 00:04:47,160 --> 00:04:49,400 Speaker 1: of questions as I do for you, but I also 80 00:04:49,480 --> 00:04:52,240 Speaker 1: just wonder if your peers, how did they treat you well. 81 00:04:52,279 --> 00:04:54,279 Speaker 1: It's funny, you know, if if I'm on an aeroplane, 82 00:04:54,720 --> 00:04:57,400 Speaker 1: UM I tend not to tell the person next to 83 00:04:57,440 --> 00:05:01,280 Speaker 1: me what I do, because yet all the stories of it, 84 00:05:01,440 --> 00:05:03,520 Speaker 1: like if you're a doctor, you know, a medical doctor, 85 00:05:03,560 --> 00:05:04,800 Speaker 1: and you say I'm a doctor and they say, oh, 86 00:05:04,800 --> 00:05:06,760 Speaker 1: I've got this sort of can you have a look 87 00:05:06,800 --> 00:05:09,360 Speaker 1: at it? So I turned, you know, if I want 88 00:05:09,400 --> 00:05:11,760 Speaker 1: peace and quiet, I tend to keep it to myself 89 00:05:11,800 --> 00:05:15,600 Speaker 1: what I do. But regarding my payers, my academic colleagues, 90 00:05:15,839 --> 00:05:18,800 Speaker 1: those that I work with, um no. And this is 91 00:05:18,800 --> 00:05:22,000 Speaker 1: why we have para psychology at Edinburgh. They know that 92 00:05:22,480 --> 00:05:26,000 Speaker 1: we're actually good scientists, so we're good researchers just like 93 00:05:26,080 --> 00:05:29,839 Speaker 1: they are. But you have to probably have personal contact 94 00:05:30,040 --> 00:05:33,480 Speaker 1: with the researcher to realize that. It's It's just like 95 00:05:33,520 --> 00:05:36,960 Speaker 1: any other prejudice or stereotype that if you don't get 96 00:05:37,000 --> 00:05:39,400 Speaker 1: to speak to the people that you have ideas about, 97 00:05:39,720 --> 00:05:43,320 Speaker 1: then the ideas can be quite mistaken. So I think 98 00:05:43,440 --> 00:05:47,040 Speaker 1: for parapsychology, for it to thrive in in this sort 99 00:05:47,080 --> 00:05:51,120 Speaker 1: of scientific world, psychologists like me have to be embedded 100 00:05:51,200 --> 00:05:56,360 Speaker 1: within psychology departments in other university departments to break down prejudices, 101 00:05:56,400 --> 00:05:59,800 Speaker 1: because there definitely is a lot of negative baggage associated 102 00:05:59,800 --> 00:06:02,960 Speaker 1: with the P word. You know, some parapsychologists don't even 103 00:06:03,040 --> 00:06:05,640 Speaker 1: like using the word para psychology because you think it's 104 00:06:05,640 --> 00:06:11,560 Speaker 1: already got sort of toxic associations. Looking more into parapsychology 105 00:06:11,880 --> 00:06:15,200 Speaker 1: and especially your background, it really interested me because from 106 00:06:15,200 --> 00:06:17,520 Speaker 1: what I've heard, maybe this has changed. You have not 107 00:06:17,720 --> 00:06:21,400 Speaker 1: had an experience with anything paranormal in your personal life, 108 00:06:21,680 --> 00:06:25,240 Speaker 1: not personally, No, it was it was just curiosity, sort 109 00:06:25,240 --> 00:06:28,560 Speaker 1: of intellectual curiosity, and it was a psychologist in me 110 00:06:28,960 --> 00:06:32,479 Speaker 1: that brought me into paras psychology. And the word paras 111 00:06:32,560 --> 00:06:35,320 Speaker 1: psychology gives you a clue, you know that there is 112 00:06:35,520 --> 00:06:37,840 Speaker 1: a lot of psychology in there. So the two are 113 00:06:37,920 --> 00:06:42,120 Speaker 1: quite close, closely related in many ways. Um. I do know, 114 00:06:42,360 --> 00:06:46,840 Speaker 1: you know some parapsychologists who had an experience that kind 115 00:06:46,880 --> 00:06:48,880 Speaker 1: of made them curious and that that's what brought them 116 00:06:48,880 --> 00:06:51,000 Speaker 1: into the field. But a lot of them are kind 117 00:06:51,000 --> 00:06:54,800 Speaker 1: of maverick people. They are quite independent minded. They're just adventurous, 118 00:06:54,839 --> 00:06:58,360 Speaker 1: curious people. They might not even have had a personal experience, 119 00:06:58,360 --> 00:07:00,040 Speaker 1: so they just know this is a kind of of 120 00:07:00,880 --> 00:07:04,280 Speaker 1: area where you can do exciting things and um, you know, 121 00:07:04,360 --> 00:07:08,440 Speaker 1: explores strange ideas and make an impact as well because 122 00:07:08,440 --> 00:07:11,680 Speaker 1: it's a relatively small field, so you can make an 123 00:07:11,720 --> 00:07:15,440 Speaker 1: impact because you're yourself. I'm you know, a big fish 124 00:07:15,480 --> 00:07:17,840 Speaker 1: in a small bowl, if you like, yes to me, 125 00:07:18,200 --> 00:07:20,880 Speaker 1: that seems like that would have a huge impact on 126 00:07:21,240 --> 00:07:25,760 Speaker 1: people and our base fears of death and the unknown 127 00:07:25,800 --> 00:07:29,440 Speaker 1: of afterlife in religion, which is something that holds a 128 00:07:29,440 --> 00:07:33,480 Speaker 1: lot of communities and cultures and people together. And I 129 00:07:33,520 --> 00:07:36,480 Speaker 1: just think that if you could scientifically back that there 130 00:07:36,640 --> 00:07:40,920 Speaker 1: was a paranormal experience that is truly unexplainable, there are 131 00:07:40,960 --> 00:07:43,720 Speaker 1: so many minds that could be changed. Because you see 132 00:07:43,720 --> 00:07:46,000 Speaker 1: the ghost hunting shows and they're very addictive and they're 133 00:07:46,000 --> 00:07:48,440 Speaker 1: really fun and all of that. But I think what 134 00:07:48,480 --> 00:07:51,200 Speaker 1: you're doing is looking at it all with this skeptical, 135 00:07:51,360 --> 00:07:55,920 Speaker 1: scientific but open mind. That's right, we're trying to I mean, 136 00:07:55,960 --> 00:07:58,880 Speaker 1: the problem is what we call them spontaneous experiences, that 137 00:07:59,120 --> 00:08:03,280 Speaker 1: is real world world psychic or seemingly psychic experiences, and 138 00:08:03,400 --> 00:08:07,920 Speaker 1: you might include ghost experiences in that. These are actually 139 00:08:08,120 --> 00:08:11,280 Speaker 1: very difficult to study in any controlled way, because they're 140 00:08:11,720 --> 00:08:15,559 Speaker 1: happened unpredictably, and you know, you might take a TV 141 00:08:15,800 --> 00:08:18,320 Speaker 1: crew along, but you know you can't see everything that's 142 00:08:18,360 --> 00:08:23,280 Speaker 1: going on behind the camera. So to persuade the scientific community, 143 00:08:23,440 --> 00:08:26,040 Speaker 1: we we think that you need to move into the 144 00:08:26,080 --> 00:08:29,320 Speaker 1: laboratory and do more controlled studies. And of course when 145 00:08:29,400 --> 00:08:32,640 Speaker 1: you do that, you're creating a much more artificial situation. 146 00:08:32,880 --> 00:08:34,720 Speaker 1: So there's a bit of a trade off because you 147 00:08:34,840 --> 00:08:38,160 Speaker 1: lose a lot of the drama, perhaps the emotional connection 148 00:08:38,240 --> 00:08:41,320 Speaker 1: that you might need in a real world psychic experience. 149 00:08:41,360 --> 00:08:44,280 Speaker 1: You get kind of watered down version. I think it's 150 00:08:44,320 --> 00:08:49,200 Speaker 1: important that researchers study the paranormal in the laboratory situation 151 00:08:49,720 --> 00:08:55,160 Speaker 1: because it's much more controlled. You you're not losing, you 152 00:08:55,280 --> 00:08:58,640 Speaker 1: lose a lot in terms of the emotional impact of 153 00:08:58,679 --> 00:09:02,280 Speaker 1: the event. You're studying kind of watered down version of 154 00:09:02,760 --> 00:09:05,680 Speaker 1: a psychic experience in the lab. But I think you 155 00:09:05,720 --> 00:09:07,800 Speaker 1: need that kind of control in order to persuade the 156 00:09:07,840 --> 00:09:12,160 Speaker 1: scientific community that there might be something to psychic abilities 157 00:09:12,679 --> 00:09:16,960 Speaker 1: in the real world. Spontaneous psychic experiences are more dramatic, 158 00:09:17,080 --> 00:09:20,080 Speaker 1: but they're also much harder to study in any controlled way. 159 00:09:22,800 --> 00:09:25,320 Speaker 1: They read a statistic and you would know better than I. 160 00:09:25,440 --> 00:09:30,560 Speaker 1: But about fifty of people believe in the paranormal or anghosts. 161 00:09:30,720 --> 00:09:34,240 Speaker 1: Is that about right? That's about right, yes, um, And 162 00:09:34,480 --> 00:09:38,000 Speaker 1: that that's taken very broadly, so that would include, for example, 163 00:09:38,040 --> 00:09:42,520 Speaker 1: traditional religious beliefs, so believing in a god, or believing 164 00:09:42,559 --> 00:09:46,520 Speaker 1: that you can pray and heal someone or have things 165 00:09:46,600 --> 00:09:50,080 Speaker 1: happen that you want because of prayer. These would also 166 00:09:50,520 --> 00:09:54,439 Speaker 1: be regarded as paranormal beliefs. So there's quite a wide 167 00:09:54,440 --> 00:09:58,079 Speaker 1: definition of what what you know, psychologists would count as 168 00:09:58,160 --> 00:10:03,160 Speaker 1: as a paranormal belief And of about half of these 169 00:10:03,240 --> 00:10:06,840 Speaker 1: people believe they've had a paranormal experience. So that means 170 00:10:06,920 --> 00:10:08,680 Speaker 1: if you look, you know, you're walking along the street, 171 00:10:08,720 --> 00:10:10,480 Speaker 1: you're looking at the people around you, about one in 172 00:10:10,600 --> 00:10:14,040 Speaker 1: four will have had what they think is a paranormal experience. 173 00:10:14,080 --> 00:10:16,720 Speaker 1: And that that's to me why it's obviously of interest 174 00:10:16,760 --> 00:10:20,240 Speaker 1: to psychologists to study. So even if you have a 175 00:10:20,280 --> 00:10:23,480 Speaker 1: spiritual experience or a very religious experience, or even participate 176 00:10:23,520 --> 00:10:26,680 Speaker 1: in praying, that you would be part of the fifty yes, 177 00:10:26,760 --> 00:10:29,280 Speaker 1: that would be counted as part of the because of 178 00:10:29,360 --> 00:10:32,599 Speaker 1: the aspect that, um, you know that the sense of 179 00:10:33,640 --> 00:10:37,920 Speaker 1: influence for one person, which is something and something happens, 180 00:10:38,400 --> 00:10:41,359 Speaker 1: that would be a paranormal claim. So if you pray 181 00:10:41,480 --> 00:10:45,440 Speaker 1: for something to happen, like a person to be healed, 182 00:10:45,960 --> 00:10:48,400 Speaker 1: that have been studies, for example, looking at the power 183 00:10:48,440 --> 00:10:51,760 Speaker 1: of prayer, and they come under the category of para 184 00:10:51,840 --> 00:10:56,240 Speaker 1: psychology because there's no obvious normal mechanism to explain. You know, 185 00:10:56,280 --> 00:10:58,840 Speaker 1: if people get better through prayer, you know what else 186 00:10:58,920 --> 00:11:02,000 Speaker 1: is going on if it's not power normal? So many questions. Um, 187 00:11:02,280 --> 00:11:04,840 Speaker 1: So I have a song called praying, which is just 188 00:11:05,120 --> 00:11:08,560 Speaker 1: ironic that we're talking about this, But I do find 189 00:11:08,600 --> 00:11:12,280 Speaker 1: myself either talking to my higher conscious just like the 190 00:11:12,320 --> 00:11:16,000 Speaker 1: best version of myself or whatever is out there or 191 00:11:16,040 --> 00:11:18,280 Speaker 1: the universe. I don't really like to put a label 192 00:11:18,320 --> 00:11:19,840 Speaker 1: on it because I don't know what it is. And 193 00:11:19,880 --> 00:11:22,400 Speaker 1: it does bring me kind of back down to earth. 194 00:11:22,480 --> 00:11:26,200 Speaker 1: It makes me feel better. And like I was saying before, 195 00:11:26,920 --> 00:11:31,680 Speaker 1: humans have such a fear of death. I think it's 196 00:11:31,720 --> 00:11:34,679 Speaker 1: what drives most people in life, at least for me. 197 00:11:34,960 --> 00:11:37,880 Speaker 1: What I see, it's wanting to leave a legacy and 198 00:11:37,960 --> 00:11:40,319 Speaker 1: do something great while you're here, because we all know 199 00:11:40,440 --> 00:11:43,000 Speaker 1: that we only have a finite amount of time, so 200 00:11:43,120 --> 00:11:46,800 Speaker 1: opening up the parapsychology of it's opening up religion. You're 201 00:11:46,840 --> 00:11:50,800 Speaker 1: opening up people's minds to the afterlife. And so in 202 00:11:50,880 --> 00:11:53,679 Speaker 1: your heart, are you trying to prove that it exists 203 00:11:53,760 --> 00:11:56,480 Speaker 1: or are you trying to prove that it doesn't? Or 204 00:11:56,520 --> 00:11:59,520 Speaker 1: do you not know? Are you open? Like? Are you atheist? 205 00:11:59,559 --> 00:12:01,880 Speaker 1: Are you ledges? Are you just well, you're you're being 206 00:12:01,960 --> 00:12:05,160 Speaker 1: very broad there, Kesha. You're you're saying it's do you 207 00:12:05,200 --> 00:12:08,079 Speaker 1: believe in it? But it's you know, we're we're talking 208 00:12:08,080 --> 00:12:10,720 Speaker 1: about a whole lot of different things. So life after death, 209 00:12:10,920 --> 00:12:14,760 Speaker 1: for example, the possibility of surviving some some form of 210 00:12:14,840 --> 00:12:18,640 Speaker 1: our personality surviving after physical bodies has died. That's one 211 00:12:18,760 --> 00:12:23,400 Speaker 1: hypothesis we call that the survival hypothesis, and reincarnation would 212 00:12:23,400 --> 00:12:25,360 Speaker 1: be part of that, the idea that you survive and 213 00:12:25,400 --> 00:12:27,880 Speaker 1: then you kind of come back. Um. But there's also 214 00:12:28,000 --> 00:12:31,480 Speaker 1: the sort of psychic abilities of the living, for example, 215 00:12:31,559 --> 00:12:35,520 Speaker 1: extrasensory perception, the claim that people can read one another's minds. 216 00:12:36,120 --> 00:12:40,280 Speaker 1: And then another thing that parapsychologists study is called psychokinesis 217 00:12:40,400 --> 00:12:43,160 Speaker 1: or p K. That's mind over matter, So it's the 218 00:12:43,160 --> 00:12:46,840 Speaker 1: claim that people can influence physical objects or heal other 219 00:12:46,880 --> 00:12:51,520 Speaker 1: people by thought alone or by willpower alone. So when 220 00:12:51,559 --> 00:12:54,240 Speaker 1: you ask me, Kesha, what do I think? You know, 221 00:12:54,280 --> 00:12:57,760 Speaker 1: what am I trying to prove or it depends what 222 00:12:57,960 --> 00:13:00,880 Speaker 1: part we're looking at. So the survival question, for example, 223 00:13:00,880 --> 00:13:05,000 Speaker 1: I have not personally done any research into survival the 224 00:13:05,080 --> 00:13:08,600 Speaker 1: idea of life after death, but I having looked at 225 00:13:08,640 --> 00:13:12,280 Speaker 1: the research that's been done, I found it's not to me, 226 00:13:12,360 --> 00:13:16,079 Speaker 1: it's not convincing that there's any scientific evidence. Sorry everybody, 227 00:13:16,920 --> 00:13:20,119 Speaker 1: but from what I've I've seen, the evidence is not 228 00:13:20,120 --> 00:13:22,199 Speaker 1: not there yet, and that might just be because it's 229 00:13:22,200 --> 00:13:25,360 Speaker 1: a very hard area to to look into. And of 230 00:13:25,360 --> 00:13:27,440 Speaker 1: course there's a question of faith, which is not a 231 00:13:27,480 --> 00:13:30,960 Speaker 1: scientific question and we we can't even you know, study that. 232 00:13:31,840 --> 00:13:33,760 Speaker 1: But for the other area that you know, where I'm 233 00:13:33,800 --> 00:13:37,280 Speaker 1: actually doing my research extrasensory perception. So the idea of 234 00:13:37,280 --> 00:13:42,280 Speaker 1: telepathy or or people communicating, I'm my work is actually 235 00:13:42,320 --> 00:13:45,080 Speaker 1: testing that hypothesis, So I'm not setting out to prove 236 00:13:45,800 --> 00:13:48,280 Speaker 1: that it exists. So I've I've got a question in 237 00:13:48,320 --> 00:13:49,800 Speaker 1: mind when I do a study, which is, you know, 238 00:13:50,160 --> 00:13:52,200 Speaker 1: if we set up an experiment to see people can 239 00:13:52,240 --> 00:13:55,840 Speaker 1: communicate with one another at a distance, you know, can 240 00:13:55,880 --> 00:13:58,959 Speaker 1: they do it if we set up in a careful way, 241 00:13:59,320 --> 00:14:01,319 Speaker 1: and so we test, we put we put them to 242 00:14:01,360 --> 00:14:04,720 Speaker 1: the test and see if they can actually m communicate 243 00:14:04,760 --> 00:14:07,520 Speaker 1: for example, the contents of a video clip or a 244 00:14:07,600 --> 00:14:12,200 Speaker 1: postcard that's been randomly chosen. So it's about testing the hypothesis. 245 00:14:12,200 --> 00:14:14,840 Speaker 1: And then if we get evidence, you know, we don't say, oh, 246 00:14:14,840 --> 00:14:18,880 Speaker 1: that proves it. We just say this study proved provided 247 00:14:18,920 --> 00:14:22,320 Speaker 1: evidence in support of the hypothesis. So it's all very 248 00:14:22,400 --> 00:14:25,840 Speaker 1: kind of carefully worded because I think when you do signs, 249 00:14:25,840 --> 00:14:28,280 Speaker 1: you have to do you know, small steps, baby steps 250 00:14:28,320 --> 00:14:31,080 Speaker 1: all the time, and just try to be very careful 251 00:14:31,080 --> 00:14:33,240 Speaker 1: in what you're claiming. I was reading a book and 252 00:14:33,520 --> 00:14:38,120 Speaker 1: only a percentage of communication is actually verbal anyways. A 253 00:14:38,160 --> 00:14:41,840 Speaker 1: lot of it can be visual, how you're holding your body, 254 00:14:41,880 --> 00:14:45,040 Speaker 1: if you're crossing your arms, If you say something, you 255 00:14:45,040 --> 00:14:48,440 Speaker 1: could say it twenty different ways, and your tone can 256 00:14:48,520 --> 00:14:51,960 Speaker 1: be saying something so different. So when you do those studies, 257 00:14:52,200 --> 00:14:56,520 Speaker 1: are people able to see each other they in separate places. 258 00:14:56,600 --> 00:14:59,480 Speaker 1: They have to be separated for exactly that reason that 259 00:14:59,520 --> 00:15:03,600 Speaker 1: there's so much communication that's going on non verbally. UM, 260 00:15:03,760 --> 00:15:06,320 Speaker 1: So we do these experiments with two people, the sender 261 00:15:06,360 --> 00:15:09,440 Speaker 1: and a receiver, and they're in two separate rooms, and 262 00:15:10,120 --> 00:15:13,480 Speaker 1: the sender can hear the receiver about the receiver can't 263 00:15:13,520 --> 00:15:17,080 Speaker 1: hear the sender. So, um, we're trying to stop the 264 00:15:17,120 --> 00:15:21,760 Speaker 1: possibility that there's any normal communication available. So that includes 265 00:15:22,600 --> 00:15:24,760 Speaker 1: all the senses that we know about. You have to 266 00:15:24,760 --> 00:15:27,280 Speaker 1: be really careful when you do these experiments that you're 267 00:15:27,320 --> 00:15:32,800 Speaker 1: not inadvertently allowing communication to happen. So yeah, we have 268 00:15:32,840 --> 00:15:36,000 Speaker 1: we have to be very cautious with the two people 269 00:15:36,160 --> 00:15:39,280 Speaker 1: know each other. The studies have tried it in different ways, 270 00:15:39,280 --> 00:15:42,840 Speaker 1: so there are better results when the sender and the 271 00:15:42,880 --> 00:15:45,840 Speaker 1: receiver know each other. Because I'm thinking of if me 272 00:15:45,920 --> 00:15:48,200 Speaker 1: and my best friend, I know her so well. I've 273 00:15:48,240 --> 00:15:50,080 Speaker 1: known her since I was seven, So if you put 274 00:15:50,120 --> 00:15:51,960 Speaker 1: us in two separate rooms, you can put us across 275 00:15:52,000 --> 00:15:54,920 Speaker 1: the country from each other, and I bet one out 276 00:15:54,960 --> 00:15:57,920 Speaker 1: of ten times I could guess something that she was 277 00:15:57,960 --> 00:16:00,480 Speaker 1: thinking about because I know her so well. I feel 278 00:16:00,520 --> 00:16:04,560 Speaker 1: like the energy that she can put off, even in silences, 279 00:16:04,720 --> 00:16:06,800 Speaker 1: there can be an energy put off from someone you 280 00:16:06,880 --> 00:16:09,360 Speaker 1: know really well. What you're saying is very important, which 281 00:16:09,400 --> 00:16:12,040 Speaker 1: is that people who know each other very well can 282 00:16:12,160 --> 00:16:17,320 Speaker 1: anticipate each other's thoughts, and that's different from psychic often, so, 283 00:16:17,400 --> 00:16:19,840 Speaker 1: for example, a married couple who have lived together for 284 00:16:20,000 --> 00:16:22,520 Speaker 1: years say that you know, they can finish each other's 285 00:16:22,560 --> 00:16:26,480 Speaker 1: sentences practically because they know each other's thoughts so well. Um. 286 00:16:26,640 --> 00:16:28,160 Speaker 1: And And the way that we deal with that in 287 00:16:28,160 --> 00:16:31,600 Speaker 1: our experiments is that the thing that the sender is 288 00:16:31,920 --> 00:16:35,600 Speaker 1: sending has to be randomly chosen. So we don't allow 289 00:16:35,640 --> 00:16:38,680 Speaker 1: the sender. We don't say, go into this room and 290 00:16:39,080 --> 00:16:42,240 Speaker 1: think of a draw a picture, Draw any picture, because 291 00:16:42,280 --> 00:16:44,040 Speaker 1: there's a fairly good chance, if you know each other 292 00:16:44,160 --> 00:16:46,320 Speaker 1: very well, that you'll be able to guess what she's drawing, 293 00:16:46,560 --> 00:16:51,120 Speaker 1: like one out of ten, Yes, I totally know. Yeah, easy, easy. Um. 294 00:16:51,200 --> 00:16:52,960 Speaker 1: So what we do is we have as a pool 295 00:16:53,000 --> 00:16:56,440 Speaker 1: of maybe a hundred pictures, and the sender is given 296 00:16:56,440 --> 00:16:59,720 Speaker 1: one randomly, so they don't they don't know what they're 297 00:16:59,720 --> 00:17:02,080 Speaker 1: going to and they don't get to choose it. They 298 00:17:02,080 --> 00:17:03,880 Speaker 1: don't get to choose it. But you're quite right if 299 00:17:03,920 --> 00:17:06,520 Speaker 1: they did get to choose it, then that would change 300 00:17:06,680 --> 00:17:10,639 Speaker 1: the chances of success in the experiment because their preferences 301 00:17:10,720 --> 00:17:14,120 Speaker 1: might match your preferences in the research that you've done. 302 00:17:14,920 --> 00:17:18,600 Speaker 1: Has it changed your mind at all? Are you still neutral? 303 00:17:18,680 --> 00:17:20,360 Speaker 1: Are you trying to stay as neutral as you can, 304 00:17:20,440 --> 00:17:22,320 Speaker 1: or do you find yourself being swayed in one direction 305 00:17:22,359 --> 00:17:24,280 Speaker 1: or the other. I'll tell you what I've changed. I'm 306 00:17:24,280 --> 00:17:28,080 Speaker 1: not convinced yet that the I mean. I'm talking about 307 00:17:28,160 --> 00:17:32,400 Speaker 1: extrasensory perception studies. That's where I think the strongest evidences. 308 00:17:32,920 --> 00:17:35,560 Speaker 1: So there are studies that look at mind over matter 309 00:17:36,200 --> 00:17:39,520 Speaker 1: using it sounds really boring, but using random number generators, 310 00:17:39,640 --> 00:17:42,840 Speaker 1: and they have very very weak effects in them, and 311 00:17:42,920 --> 00:17:47,640 Speaker 1: I've I don't find them very persuasive studies. But the 312 00:17:47,640 --> 00:17:51,239 Speaker 1: EESP studies using what's called the gangs field method are 313 00:17:51,320 --> 00:17:53,399 Speaker 1: quite interesting. And that that's the guns felt is a 314 00:17:53,520 --> 00:17:56,880 Speaker 1: kind of mild sensory isolation procedure. So you have red 315 00:17:56,960 --> 00:17:59,800 Speaker 1: light shining on your face, you wear headphones, you've got 316 00:17:59,840 --> 00:18:03,520 Speaker 1: a mask over your eyes, and you essentially the receiver 317 00:18:03,640 --> 00:18:07,919 Speaker 1: in this experiment basically just relaxes and free associates. They 318 00:18:07,960 --> 00:18:10,199 Speaker 1: just describe what comes to their mind, so it's not 319 00:18:10,240 --> 00:18:12,200 Speaker 1: like try to guess what the sender is sending. It's 320 00:18:12,200 --> 00:18:16,080 Speaker 1: just describe what's in your head. And these experiments have 321 00:18:16,200 --> 00:18:18,520 Speaker 1: got quite a long track record and on on the whole. 322 00:18:18,560 --> 00:18:22,639 Speaker 1: They've they've got fairly positive results. So I'm I'm following 323 00:18:22,760 --> 00:18:24,800 Speaker 1: up on that on that with my own work. So 324 00:18:24,960 --> 00:18:28,760 Speaker 1: my my view is that there's definitely something there in 325 00:18:28,800 --> 00:18:31,640 Speaker 1: these experiments, but we don't really have much clue as 326 00:18:31,680 --> 00:18:34,560 Speaker 1: to what's going on. We know we've seen some patterns. 327 00:18:34,760 --> 00:18:39,200 Speaker 1: So for example, studies with selected participants do better than 328 00:18:39,320 --> 00:18:42,800 Speaker 1: studies with unselected participants. So what that means is that 329 00:18:43,240 --> 00:18:47,280 Speaker 1: people who are believe in the power normal, who have 330 00:18:47,400 --> 00:18:52,040 Speaker 1: had paranormal experiences, and who may have practiced some kind 331 00:18:52,080 --> 00:18:56,040 Speaker 1: of mental disciplines such as meditation, or who are interested 332 00:18:56,040 --> 00:18:59,240 Speaker 1: in their dreams and keep a dream diary, these participants 333 00:18:59,320 --> 00:19:02,879 Speaker 1: tend to do better in these experiments than just a 334 00:19:03,160 --> 00:19:06,040 Speaker 1: random person pulled in off the street. So there are 335 00:19:06,119 --> 00:19:10,640 Speaker 1: some there's some patterns. I feel like that suggests there's 336 00:19:10,640 --> 00:19:13,080 Speaker 1: something going on, but we don't really understand what it means. 337 00:19:13,720 --> 00:19:17,239 Speaker 1: So it's almost like being open to it. It could be. 338 00:19:17,280 --> 00:19:18,720 Speaker 1: It could be that because it's a kind of a 339 00:19:18,720 --> 00:19:21,639 Speaker 1: weird experience doing that experiment, you know, sitting in a 340 00:19:21,680 --> 00:19:24,520 Speaker 1: comfy chair, you do a relaxation exercise, and you've got 341 00:19:24,520 --> 00:19:26,720 Speaker 1: this red light on, you've got goggles on your eyes 342 00:19:26,800 --> 00:19:29,920 Speaker 1: and you're speaking out loud while someone else listens to you. 343 00:19:30,240 --> 00:19:32,199 Speaker 1: It's a bit like dreaming, but you know someone's in 344 00:19:32,200 --> 00:19:35,200 Speaker 1: the room taking notes at the same time, and it's 345 00:19:35,200 --> 00:19:37,359 Speaker 1: a weird experience. And maybe it's simply the case that 346 00:19:37,440 --> 00:19:41,000 Speaker 1: people who are creative are or who are good at meditating, 347 00:19:41,520 --> 00:19:44,800 Speaker 1: are more relaxed in that environment and are better able 348 00:19:44,840 --> 00:19:47,080 Speaker 1: to notice what's going on inside their head and better 349 00:19:47,160 --> 00:19:50,080 Speaker 1: able to describe what's going on. So we're not quite 350 00:19:50,080 --> 00:19:54,359 Speaker 1: sure why these people do better. And that's you know, 351 00:19:54,400 --> 00:19:56,080 Speaker 1: that's one of the things that our work is trying 352 00:19:56,119 --> 00:19:58,800 Speaker 1: to look at when I think of psychic abilities, and 353 00:19:58,960 --> 00:20:03,159 Speaker 1: also is into me with telepathy, like being able to 354 00:20:03,200 --> 00:20:07,640 Speaker 1: communicate both ways and being cynical about it might actually 355 00:20:07,880 --> 00:20:12,400 Speaker 1: keep you from being able to experience certain things from 356 00:20:12,440 --> 00:20:15,080 Speaker 1: what you're saying, that's what I'm gathering a little bit. Yeah, Yeah, 357 00:20:15,160 --> 00:20:17,960 Speaker 1: I think I think that's the case. Um, there's there's 358 00:20:18,359 --> 00:20:21,520 Speaker 1: research that suggests that people who we call it, we 359 00:20:21,600 --> 00:20:25,159 Speaker 1: have funny terms in parasocology, we call it sheep and goats. 360 00:20:25,200 --> 00:20:27,960 Speaker 1: The sheep are the believers, and the goats go to 361 00:20:28,040 --> 00:20:31,760 Speaker 1: the disbelievers. And it's actually from it's a biblical metaphors. 362 00:20:32,240 --> 00:20:34,520 Speaker 1: It's from the from the day of judgment. I think. 363 00:20:34,800 --> 00:20:37,879 Speaker 1: So the sheep are the believers, the goats the disbelievers. 364 00:20:37,880 --> 00:20:40,240 Speaker 1: And there's some evidence that we actually call it the 365 00:20:40,240 --> 00:20:44,199 Speaker 1: sheep goat effect in our studies, that the sheep on 366 00:20:44,280 --> 00:20:47,400 Speaker 1: the whole tend to score more positively than the goats. 367 00:20:47,440 --> 00:20:50,560 Speaker 1: So the people who disbelieve tend not to do so well. 368 00:20:51,040 --> 00:20:54,280 Speaker 1: And I do I do think in the real world 369 00:20:54,480 --> 00:20:57,440 Speaker 1: people who are sort of cynical and skeptical. I'm sure 370 00:20:57,480 --> 00:21:01,240 Speaker 1: they have weird experiences, as I'm sure they do, but 371 00:21:01,359 --> 00:21:04,040 Speaker 1: I think they probably find a way to explain them 372 00:21:04,040 --> 00:21:08,199 Speaker 1: away or to account for them. Um. So you know, 373 00:21:08,240 --> 00:21:11,400 Speaker 1: it's not only the believers of strange experiences of para 374 00:21:11,440 --> 00:21:14,240 Speaker 1: normal experiences. I think everybody does. But we have different 375 00:21:14,240 --> 00:21:18,719 Speaker 1: ways of interpreting these experiences. In my personal life, usually 376 00:21:18,760 --> 00:21:21,760 Speaker 1: the women I'm around we like to talk about this 377 00:21:21,840 --> 00:21:26,000 Speaker 1: stuff more than men. Is that me just generalizing or 378 00:21:26,040 --> 00:21:28,439 Speaker 1: have you found that to be true? That is true, 379 00:21:28,640 --> 00:21:31,479 Speaker 1: It's not true that in the lab if you do 380 00:21:31,520 --> 00:21:35,280 Speaker 1: a trled experience, women and men score at the same level. 381 00:21:36,240 --> 00:21:39,160 Speaker 1: But when it comes to who is willing to send 382 00:21:39,200 --> 00:21:43,720 Speaker 1: in reports of experiences or who writes to the parapsychology labs. 383 00:21:43,760 --> 00:21:47,239 Speaker 1: It's more women than men who report experiences. And I 384 00:21:47,280 --> 00:21:50,160 Speaker 1: think that maybe not because women are more psychic than men, 385 00:21:50,240 --> 00:21:54,240 Speaker 1: but because culturally it's more acceptable for a women. You know, 386 00:21:54,600 --> 00:21:56,600 Speaker 1: the stereotype is that we're more kind of in tune 387 00:21:56,640 --> 00:21:59,480 Speaker 1: with our emotions and are more intuitive, We're more willing 388 00:21:59,520 --> 00:22:01,840 Speaker 1: to talk about at these things. So I think that 389 00:22:01,880 --> 00:22:05,400 Speaker 1: makes women more likely to report paranormal experiences than men. 390 00:22:06,000 --> 00:22:07,840 Speaker 1: So it's it's not that they have more experiences, but 391 00:22:07,840 --> 00:22:10,679 Speaker 1: they're more willing to talk to other people about them, right, 392 00:22:10,760 --> 00:22:14,560 Speaker 1: just because of the stereotype of being emotional being very 393 00:22:14,560 --> 00:22:17,840 Speaker 1: open about it. It's quite hard to know where the 394 00:22:17,880 --> 00:22:21,040 Speaker 1: psychic comes in there, because it's very hard to separate 395 00:22:21,720 --> 00:22:26,760 Speaker 1: what's normal and knowing each other's habits and sharing personalities 396 00:22:26,800 --> 00:22:30,320 Speaker 1: and sharing genetics, and then what's the paranormal. So it's 397 00:22:30,359 --> 00:22:33,879 Speaker 1: really really difficult to to separate these two out well. Also, 398 00:22:34,040 --> 00:22:37,639 Speaker 1: I would think especially genetics, like my brother, we do 399 00:22:37,960 --> 00:22:40,159 Speaker 1: share the same mother, so we were raised in the 400 00:22:40,240 --> 00:22:46,119 Speaker 1: same household. And the nature versus nurture of human beings 401 00:22:46,160 --> 00:22:50,120 Speaker 1: and the psychology behind that is our mothers are very 402 00:22:50,200 --> 00:22:53,280 Speaker 1: open about all of these kinds of topics and nothing 403 00:22:53,359 --> 00:22:55,960 Speaker 1: was off the table versus I know some people that 404 00:22:56,040 --> 00:22:58,560 Speaker 1: grew up in a home opposite of that, where it 405 00:22:58,680 --> 00:23:02,560 Speaker 1: was just very pragmatic, are less inclined to just talk 406 00:23:02,640 --> 00:23:05,400 Speaker 1: about this kind of stuff all day. Yeah. I mean, 407 00:23:05,440 --> 00:23:08,080 Speaker 1: I think when when you're trying to judge if it 408 00:23:08,119 --> 00:23:11,240 Speaker 1: is this a paranormal or psychic communication or not, it's 409 00:23:11,320 --> 00:23:14,880 Speaker 1: easier if the event is unexpected. So it's a bit 410 00:23:14,920 --> 00:23:16,679 Speaker 1: like I was saying, when we do our experiments, we 411 00:23:16,720 --> 00:23:19,800 Speaker 1: have a sender and a receiver, and the center has 412 00:23:20,000 --> 00:23:23,440 Speaker 1: a randomly selected target, so the receiver can't guess what 413 00:23:23,760 --> 00:23:26,560 Speaker 1: what they're they're going to be thinking about. And I 414 00:23:26,600 --> 00:23:29,200 Speaker 1: think it's the same in life. It's something really unexpected happens, 415 00:23:29,240 --> 00:23:31,320 Speaker 1: like I don't know, you you've you know, you break 416 00:23:31,359 --> 00:23:34,600 Speaker 1: your ankle walking off the cab, or you know your 417 00:23:34,920 --> 00:23:37,600 Speaker 1: bitten your hand gets bitten by a dog or something unexpected, 418 00:23:38,000 --> 00:23:40,919 Speaker 1: and your brother or your mother or your family member 419 00:23:41,320 --> 00:23:44,760 Speaker 1: gets that feeling, then that's that's more likely to be 420 00:23:44,800 --> 00:23:49,400 Speaker 1: psychic for me because it's unexpected. It was coming out 421 00:23:49,400 --> 00:23:51,320 Speaker 1: of the blue, so it seems more like a kind 422 00:23:51,320 --> 00:23:55,800 Speaker 1: of dramatic communication at that point, out of the ordinary exactly, 423 00:23:55,840 --> 00:23:57,639 Speaker 1: not something we would talk about all the time, not 424 00:23:57,720 --> 00:24:00,520 Speaker 1: saying it happens all the time. I has there been 425 00:24:00,560 --> 00:24:04,320 Speaker 1: anything you've seen that has just completely blown your mind. Well, 426 00:24:04,359 --> 00:24:07,679 Speaker 1: I've I've taken part in experiments where, um, you know, 427 00:24:07,920 --> 00:24:11,080 Speaker 1: I was the sender and it was scance felt experiments actually, 428 00:24:11,119 --> 00:24:15,159 Speaker 1: and um, my friend was the receiver and there was 429 00:24:15,240 --> 00:24:16,840 Speaker 1: one In fact, it was the other way around. I 430 00:24:16,880 --> 00:24:19,239 Speaker 1: was a receiver, so I was a person relaxing with 431 00:24:19,280 --> 00:24:22,399 Speaker 1: the red lights and everything. And you know, I'm not 432 00:24:22,640 --> 00:24:25,480 Speaker 1: someone who thinks that they're psychic, but I and I 433 00:24:25,560 --> 00:24:28,560 Speaker 1: normally don't get very vivid mental image ry at all. 434 00:24:29,040 --> 00:24:30,919 Speaker 1: So I closed my eyes, I don't really see anything. 435 00:24:31,160 --> 00:24:33,080 Speaker 1: But this one time I closed my eyes and I 436 00:24:33,160 --> 00:24:35,800 Speaker 1: kind of got this very clear image of a peacock 437 00:24:35,920 --> 00:24:39,960 Speaker 1: feather and I thought it was so clear and unusual 438 00:24:40,000 --> 00:24:42,040 Speaker 1: for me. And I just said, it's a peacock feather 439 00:24:42,160 --> 00:24:44,159 Speaker 1: and she said, yes, you know, this ender, that's what 440 00:24:44,240 --> 00:24:47,000 Speaker 1: the sender was looking at. So you know, I've had 441 00:24:47,240 --> 00:24:50,840 Speaker 1: I've had a striking experience which was quite unusual because 442 00:24:50,840 --> 00:24:54,040 Speaker 1: it was nothing like you know, normally it's not as 443 00:24:54,040 --> 00:24:56,920 Speaker 1: clear as that in the lab. So I've had that 444 00:24:57,000 --> 00:24:59,159 Speaker 1: kind of experience, but it's been in a in a 445 00:24:59,200 --> 00:25:01,359 Speaker 1: controlled environ and so I can't you know, I don't 446 00:25:01,440 --> 00:25:04,360 Speaker 1: believe it was just a coincidence. Um. You know, I've 447 00:25:04,840 --> 00:25:07,560 Speaker 1: taken part in experience, and I've also run experiments where 448 00:25:07,600 --> 00:25:11,320 Speaker 1: overall I've done um, you know, have a precognition study 449 00:25:11,440 --> 00:25:15,600 Speaker 1: with the gun spell, which is about getting impressions about 450 00:25:15,600 --> 00:25:17,840 Speaker 1: a future target that you will see at the end 451 00:25:17,840 --> 00:25:20,720 Speaker 1: of the session. So you lie back, you relax, you 452 00:25:20,760 --> 00:25:23,440 Speaker 1: describe what's going on inside your head, and at the 453 00:25:23,560 --> 00:25:26,320 Speaker 1: end of the session, we randomly select a film clip 454 00:25:26,359 --> 00:25:29,119 Speaker 1: and show it to you, and then we judge the 455 00:25:29,200 --> 00:25:32,400 Speaker 1: similarity between your impressions and the film clip. And I've 456 00:25:32,400 --> 00:25:36,120 Speaker 1: done that and got with sixty people what we say 457 00:25:36,119 --> 00:25:42,560 Speaker 1: statistically significant results, meaning that we've got more successful um 458 00:25:42,760 --> 00:25:45,560 Speaker 1: identifications of the picture that you would get by just 459 00:25:45,600 --> 00:25:48,719 Speaker 1: a chance. So you know, I've seen I've seen that, 460 00:25:48,920 --> 00:25:51,840 Speaker 1: and that makes me think that that it's worth pursuing 461 00:25:51,840 --> 00:25:54,639 Speaker 1: this line of research, because you know, I think something 462 00:25:54,720 --> 00:25:58,879 Speaker 1: is going on. I am really fascinated with the psychology 463 00:25:58,920 --> 00:26:02,639 Speaker 1: of people, why people are the way they are, why 464 00:26:02,680 --> 00:26:05,360 Speaker 1: they are who they are, because if there was ever 465 00:26:05,720 --> 00:26:10,800 Speaker 1: proof of a paranormal like a spirit hunting be opening 466 00:26:10,840 --> 00:26:15,040 Speaker 1: the door to something so huge for humanity. I mean, 467 00:26:15,080 --> 00:26:18,240 Speaker 1: there's a lot of ideas if you do see a ghost. 468 00:26:18,280 --> 00:26:20,159 Speaker 1: I mean, I'm actually reading a book at the moment, 469 00:26:20,280 --> 00:26:24,159 Speaker 1: which is it's about um. It's called The Haunting of 470 00:26:24,320 --> 00:26:29,159 Speaker 1: Alma Fielding, and it's a story. It's a true story 471 00:26:29,320 --> 00:26:33,119 Speaker 1: about para psychologist who investigated a woman called Alma Fielding 472 00:26:33,160 --> 00:26:37,080 Speaker 1: who had a lot of poltergeist experiences around her. Um. So, 473 00:26:37,200 --> 00:26:39,600 Speaker 1: you know, objects would fly off the shelfs and so on, 474 00:26:39,920 --> 00:26:42,719 Speaker 1: and he he was a psychologist, but he he tended 475 00:26:42,760 --> 00:26:46,280 Speaker 1: to think of it as not a spirit, but as 476 00:26:45,880 --> 00:26:51,760 Speaker 1: a sort of psychological projection from Alma of her desires 477 00:26:51,800 --> 00:26:55,199 Speaker 1: and traumas, if you like. So there are some you know, 478 00:26:55,480 --> 00:26:57,560 Speaker 1: if you see a ghost or a polter geist, that 479 00:26:57,640 --> 00:27:00,960 Speaker 1: doesn't mean this proof of the afterlife, to mean some 480 00:27:01,880 --> 00:27:05,560 Speaker 1: that's creating the effects around you. So there's different theories 481 00:27:05,640 --> 00:27:10,119 Speaker 1: basically to to explain ghosts, Like one's energy could become 482 00:27:10,520 --> 00:27:14,359 Speaker 1: so powerful that you are sending or receiving an image, 483 00:27:14,400 --> 00:27:17,359 Speaker 1: but that's not actually approve of afterlife. It could just 484 00:27:17,440 --> 00:27:20,000 Speaker 1: be you're wanting to it could be the living. I 485 00:27:20,040 --> 00:27:22,639 Speaker 1: mean if you think, um, you know, there's a theory 486 00:27:22,840 --> 00:27:26,439 Speaker 1: about poltergeist, which is this idea of objects moving around. 487 00:27:27,280 --> 00:27:30,840 Speaker 1: You know. For many years, par psychologists thought that maybe 488 00:27:31,240 --> 00:27:34,680 Speaker 1: the focused person that that it seemed to center on. 489 00:27:34,720 --> 00:27:37,800 Speaker 1: The phenomena centered on they they thought was that like 490 00:27:37,840 --> 00:27:41,000 Speaker 1: an adolescent person. And the theory was that, well, this 491 00:27:41,160 --> 00:27:44,280 Speaker 1: adolescence have kind of a lot of turmoil going on, 492 00:27:44,359 --> 00:27:48,680 Speaker 1: a lot of repressed energies and feelings, and um, that 493 00:27:48,680 --> 00:27:52,280 Speaker 1: that might be expressed through um, you know, instead of 494 00:27:52,320 --> 00:27:56,280 Speaker 1: them actually physically acting out, they psychically act out around them. 495 00:27:56,680 --> 00:27:59,479 Speaker 1: So that's one theory, you know, behind the polter Geist. 496 00:28:00,560 --> 00:28:03,560 Speaker 1: What is the definition of a polter guyst because when 497 00:28:03,560 --> 00:28:06,560 Speaker 1: you say poulter guys, I get so many different images 498 00:28:06,600 --> 00:28:09,520 Speaker 1: in my head from different movies and books. Well, it's 499 00:28:09,520 --> 00:28:13,399 Speaker 1: a German word. Pulter means noisy and guys means ghosts, 500 00:28:13,440 --> 00:28:15,639 Speaker 1: so it's a noisy ghost. So it's basically a rowdy 501 00:28:15,680 --> 00:28:19,000 Speaker 1: ghost that sort of throws things around, you know. It 502 00:28:19,119 --> 00:28:24,920 Speaker 1: affects physical objects with furniture around, throws plates across the room, 503 00:28:24,960 --> 00:28:28,439 Speaker 1: It seems to center usually on a person. You know, 504 00:28:28,600 --> 00:28:30,800 Speaker 1: it's it doesn't sort of occur randomly. It seems to 505 00:28:31,119 --> 00:28:34,080 Speaker 1: there's like an outbreak in a household, and then it 506 00:28:34,160 --> 00:28:36,399 Speaker 1: goes on for a few weeks and then it kind 507 00:28:36,440 --> 00:28:39,719 Speaker 1: of usually peters out. Um, So the thought was that 508 00:28:39,760 --> 00:28:43,360 Speaker 1: it might focus on articular person. That's what parasitologists have 509 00:28:43,960 --> 00:28:46,560 Speaker 1: thought might be going on. But the problem with these 510 00:28:46,600 --> 00:28:49,080 Speaker 1: events is that they you know, they start off they're 511 00:28:49,120 --> 00:28:52,560 Speaker 1: quite dramatic, but over time they gradually wane, and so 512 00:28:52,600 --> 00:28:55,880 Speaker 1: they're actually quite hard to study because again they're unpredictable. 513 00:28:56,000 --> 00:28:58,480 Speaker 1: And then typically the parasitologists might come along with a 514 00:28:58,520 --> 00:29:01,280 Speaker 1: camera and then nothing happens that they leave the room 515 00:29:01,320 --> 00:29:05,880 Speaker 1: and they played lip taps right, or as you're saying before, 516 00:29:05,960 --> 00:29:08,080 Speaker 1: it could be that you're so full of some sort 517 00:29:08,120 --> 00:29:11,880 Speaker 1: of emotion that your energy is literally making things fly 518 00:29:12,000 --> 00:29:15,440 Speaker 1: off the walls, and then maybe after you do that 519 00:29:15,520 --> 00:29:17,440 Speaker 1: for a couple of weeks, then you've calmed down, like 520 00:29:17,480 --> 00:29:23,520 Speaker 1: a good therapy session. Yes, exactly, there was a place 521 00:29:23,600 --> 00:29:27,120 Speaker 1: near Edinburgh, oh, Hampton Court. Yes, I have heard that 522 00:29:27,240 --> 00:29:31,280 Speaker 1: some places do seem to have one specific kind of 523 00:29:31,360 --> 00:29:34,000 Speaker 1: haunting and something that people see over and over. It's 524 00:29:34,000 --> 00:29:37,920 Speaker 1: a reoccurring thing, and it's generally everyone sees a woman 525 00:29:38,000 --> 00:29:42,120 Speaker 1: in the corner, or everyone here's footsteps in this one room. 526 00:29:42,160 --> 00:29:45,120 Speaker 1: I don't actually know that much about Hampton Court and 527 00:29:45,200 --> 00:29:48,160 Speaker 1: the underground vaults, so I was wondering if you could 528 00:29:48,200 --> 00:29:51,600 Speaker 1: just talk about that. Yeah, well, I mean there's a 529 00:29:51,640 --> 00:29:53,560 Speaker 1: little bit of a difference with a ghost and haunting, 530 00:29:53,720 --> 00:29:55,600 Speaker 1: So let's let's sort of do with that first of all. 531 00:29:55,640 --> 00:29:59,160 Speaker 1: So ghosts might just be a kind of experience that 532 00:29:59,280 --> 00:30:02,000 Speaker 1: might happen just once in one particular location, where you 533 00:30:02,040 --> 00:30:04,320 Speaker 1: see a figure, for example, or you hear something and 534 00:30:04,360 --> 00:30:07,600 Speaker 1: you think there's nobody actually there. But haunting is where 535 00:30:07,840 --> 00:30:12,160 Speaker 1: there's a repeated event in a particular location. And so 536 00:30:12,200 --> 00:30:16,960 Speaker 1: there's certain locations, typically of course, historical locations where they 537 00:30:17,080 --> 00:30:20,280 Speaker 1: develop a reputation for being haunted because lots of people 538 00:30:20,320 --> 00:30:23,800 Speaker 1: have seen the same thing there or have had lots 539 00:30:23,840 --> 00:30:28,200 Speaker 1: of unusual experiences in Hampton Court Palace Um in Surrey 540 00:30:28,840 --> 00:30:32,480 Speaker 1: Um has quite you know, it's got five hundred years 541 00:30:32,520 --> 00:30:37,200 Speaker 1: of history, so there's been plenty of Henry King. Henry's 542 00:30:37,240 --> 00:30:40,600 Speaker 1: wives have been beheaded there, and that's not very nice. No, no, 543 00:30:41,120 --> 00:30:44,160 Speaker 1: he was he was harsh. She was harsh anyway. So 544 00:30:44,400 --> 00:30:47,960 Speaker 1: it hit the Haunted Gallery in Hampton Courts, so called 545 00:30:48,000 --> 00:30:52,360 Speaker 1: because Catherine Howard, one of Henry the Eight's wives. Um, 546 00:30:52,400 --> 00:30:55,680 Speaker 1: she sort of was found committing adultery and then was 547 00:30:55,720 --> 00:30:57,800 Speaker 1: sentenced to death and she ran to the king to 548 00:30:57,880 --> 00:31:01,640 Speaker 1: plea for her life and was ragged screaming along this 549 00:31:01,640 --> 00:31:05,360 Speaker 1: this gallery and then and later of course she was beheaded. 550 00:31:05,360 --> 00:31:08,800 Speaker 1: And then in later years people would see this figure 551 00:31:09,080 --> 00:31:12,000 Speaker 1: and walking in the gallery. So we did an experiment there. 552 00:31:12,040 --> 00:31:14,440 Speaker 1: This is work that I did was Professor Richard Wiseman, 553 00:31:14,520 --> 00:31:18,200 Speaker 1: who I've collaborated with quite a lot, and we asked 554 00:31:18,360 --> 00:31:22,080 Speaker 1: it was really about the psychology of ghostly experiences, so 555 00:31:22,120 --> 00:31:24,280 Speaker 1: it was not a vigil. So it's not the sort 556 00:31:24,280 --> 00:31:26,680 Speaker 1: of thing you usually see on Telly where a bunch 557 00:31:26,680 --> 00:31:28,760 Speaker 1: of people sit in the haunted location with a camera 558 00:31:28,840 --> 00:31:31,280 Speaker 1: and wait for things to happen. What we did was 559 00:31:31,320 --> 00:31:35,920 Speaker 1: we um we got the warder of the palace, so 560 00:31:36,360 --> 00:31:38,680 Speaker 1: this is the people who kind of know they take 561 00:31:38,720 --> 00:31:41,480 Speaker 1: two guides around the tours round and they know where 562 00:31:41,520 --> 00:31:44,640 Speaker 1: people report the experiences. We gave them a floor plan 563 00:31:45,400 --> 00:31:48,080 Speaker 1: of two areas, the Haunted Gallery in the Georgian rooms, 564 00:31:48,080 --> 00:31:49,800 Speaker 1: and we got them to mark on the floor plan 565 00:31:50,440 --> 00:31:54,440 Speaker 1: where it is that people report strange experiences, and there 566 00:31:54,440 --> 00:31:57,200 Speaker 1: were clusters, you know, where people were reporting these experiences. 567 00:31:57,200 --> 00:31:59,760 Speaker 1: So we had this kind of map and then we 568 00:31:59,800 --> 00:32:02,800 Speaker 1: get off people, members of the public, a blank map 569 00:32:03,240 --> 00:32:05,080 Speaker 1: and we asked them to walk around the space and 570 00:32:05,120 --> 00:32:08,120 Speaker 1: to mark on their map where they were having experience. 571 00:32:08,160 --> 00:32:14,000 Speaker 1: It's like feeling chills or sensing a presence or hearing 572 00:32:14,360 --> 00:32:16,720 Speaker 1: feeling at touched, you know. So we were interested to 573 00:32:16,720 --> 00:32:20,720 Speaker 1: see whether people agreed, you know, with the warders what 574 00:32:20,840 --> 00:32:24,520 Speaker 1: the history was, you know, where the haunted experiences were happening. 575 00:32:24,760 --> 00:32:27,680 Speaker 1: And we found that yes, they did agree, even though 576 00:32:28,000 --> 00:32:29,600 Speaker 1: and we one of the things we wondered was what 577 00:32:29,760 --> 00:32:34,760 Speaker 1: is it Because they've read the tour book and asked 578 00:32:34,760 --> 00:32:38,080 Speaker 1: people that question before they did the experiment. Some people 579 00:32:38,120 --> 00:32:40,520 Speaker 1: had no idea of the history and some people did, 580 00:32:40,880 --> 00:32:42,840 Speaker 1: so we only looked at the data for those who 581 00:32:42,920 --> 00:32:45,280 Speaker 1: had no idea, and they showed the exactly the same pattern. 582 00:32:45,880 --> 00:32:48,040 Speaker 1: So that was that was very interesting. That suggests that 583 00:32:48,080 --> 00:32:52,000 Speaker 1: there's something about these locations that are causing people to 584 00:32:52,200 --> 00:32:56,120 Speaker 1: have an unusual experience because they agree it's not random. 585 00:32:56,200 --> 00:32:59,840 Speaker 1: It's in certain parts of the room where they're saying, oh, 586 00:32:59,840 --> 00:33:02,200 Speaker 1: I feel cold here. So that was one of the 587 00:33:02,280 --> 00:33:05,160 Speaker 1: things that we did, and then we we did a 588 00:33:05,160 --> 00:33:08,560 Speaker 1: follow up experiment with a similar kind of idea in 589 00:33:08,600 --> 00:33:12,080 Speaker 1: the underground vaults in Edinburgh and the Hampton Court study 590 00:33:12,160 --> 00:33:15,160 Speaker 1: was like in broad daylight, it was kind of busy, um, 591 00:33:15,240 --> 00:33:18,560 Speaker 1: lots of tourists mulling around. It was quite surprising that 592 00:33:18,760 --> 00:33:22,240 Speaker 1: lots of the people in our experiment had strange experiences 593 00:33:22,280 --> 00:33:25,560 Speaker 1: given it was actually quite a kind of bustling. It 594 00:33:25,680 --> 00:33:28,480 Speaker 1: was that spooky, yeah, it was. It wasn't spooky, It 595 00:33:28,600 --> 00:33:31,840 Speaker 1: wasn't spooky. But the Emperor Vaults are are spooky. You know, 596 00:33:31,880 --> 00:33:35,400 Speaker 1: they're kind of dark, they're damp, and they're kind of underground. 597 00:33:35,600 --> 00:33:38,600 Speaker 1: There are the kind of underground caverns underneath the bridge. 598 00:33:38,640 --> 00:33:42,040 Speaker 1: There's another one that's called Mary King's Close, which is 599 00:33:42,080 --> 00:33:44,760 Speaker 1: quite a good tourist attraction. It's kind of an underground 600 00:33:44,800 --> 00:33:48,160 Speaker 1: street and it also was reputedly haunted. But that that 601 00:33:48,200 --> 00:33:50,240 Speaker 1: one is not a kind of ghost tour, it's quite 602 00:33:50,280 --> 00:33:52,360 Speaker 1: a historical tour. I'd recommend that I'm not I have 603 00:33:52,440 --> 00:33:56,360 Speaker 1: no personal investment in this. By the way, folks, but 604 00:33:56,720 --> 00:33:59,360 Speaker 1: the underground vaults. What we did was we got again, 605 00:33:59,400 --> 00:34:02,240 Speaker 1: we got the tour guides, because there are people were 606 00:34:02,320 --> 00:34:05,840 Speaker 1: taking tours around the vaults and they had kind of 607 00:34:06,400 --> 00:34:08,840 Speaker 1: built up a dossier, if you like, a where in 608 00:34:08,880 --> 00:34:12,080 Speaker 1: the vaults, which one there were ten vaults, ten rooms, 609 00:34:12,120 --> 00:34:15,000 Speaker 1: which was the most spooky and where most people were 610 00:34:15,000 --> 00:34:18,600 Speaker 1: getting experiences. And we ranked ordered the ten vaults from 611 00:34:18,600 --> 00:34:21,400 Speaker 1: the most to the least haunted. So we had what 612 00:34:21,480 --> 00:34:25,560 Speaker 1: we called our Haunted Order. And then we got individuals 613 00:34:25,680 --> 00:34:29,839 Speaker 1: of the public individually went to one of the ten 614 00:34:29,920 --> 00:34:32,120 Speaker 1: vaults and then they would spend about ten minutes in 615 00:34:32,160 --> 00:34:35,560 Speaker 1: there and with a questionnaire, you know, right down what 616 00:34:35,640 --> 00:34:41,560 Speaker 1: they were experiencing, and we were we found that their 617 00:34:41,840 --> 00:34:45,520 Speaker 1: reports matched the Haunted Order, So the same thing essentially, 618 00:34:45,520 --> 00:34:47,600 Speaker 1: it was slightly different design, same thing as a Hampton 619 00:34:47,680 --> 00:34:51,640 Speaker 1: Court Palace um study that people were agreeing which was 620 00:34:51,680 --> 00:34:54,520 Speaker 1: this haunted vault, which was the scariest vault to be in, 621 00:34:55,080 --> 00:34:57,520 Speaker 1: and which was the least haunted? So was that when 622 00:34:57,560 --> 00:35:00,480 Speaker 1: you say scary as vault to at least aunted. So 623 00:35:00,640 --> 00:35:05,160 Speaker 1: is that according to historical like the most messed up 624 00:35:05,239 --> 00:35:09,600 Speaker 1: things happened per room. It's it's it's not it's not 625 00:35:09,640 --> 00:35:12,319 Speaker 1: that there were historical events happening there. It's not like, 626 00:35:12,360 --> 00:35:14,319 Speaker 1: you know, there was a slaughter in the in one 627 00:35:14,400 --> 00:35:16,760 Speaker 1: room and you know the other room as a bakery. 628 00:35:16,960 --> 00:35:20,560 Speaker 1: Not that. So it was more that when people visited 629 00:35:20,600 --> 00:35:25,320 Speaker 1: these rooms before our experiment, there were more strange experiences 630 00:35:25,400 --> 00:35:29,600 Speaker 1: happening in one vault compared to another one. So it 631 00:35:29,680 --> 00:35:31,880 Speaker 1: was it was the track record, I feel like the 632 00:35:31,880 --> 00:35:34,759 Speaker 1: ghost track record of the vaults, and we were basically 633 00:35:34,920 --> 00:35:38,120 Speaker 1: finding um Even when we had people who had no 634 00:35:38,280 --> 00:35:41,640 Speaker 1: knowledge beforehand of what was in the vaults, they still 635 00:35:41,640 --> 00:35:46,640 Speaker 1: agreed where the strange experiences were happening. So to us, 636 00:35:46,680 --> 00:35:50,200 Speaker 1: that suggested, actually, there's something about the environment, not necessarily 637 00:35:50,200 --> 00:35:53,520 Speaker 1: anything ghosts, something about shape and the lighting and the 638 00:35:53,560 --> 00:35:57,680 Speaker 1: temperature and the humidity of the vaults that may contribute 639 00:35:57,680 --> 00:36:02,879 Speaker 1: towards people having um sing weird experiences. And we did 640 00:36:02,880 --> 00:36:06,000 Speaker 1: find both studies found that the majority of the experiences 641 00:36:06,120 --> 00:36:08,640 Speaker 1: that what we're reporting what to do with changes in temperature, 642 00:36:09,080 --> 00:36:11,480 Speaker 1: usually feeling chilled, but you know, sometimes it would be 643 00:36:11,480 --> 00:36:14,879 Speaker 1: the other way around, feeling unusually hot. So that might 644 00:36:14,920 --> 00:36:17,719 Speaker 1: be something to do with the environment that they're in. Well, 645 00:36:17,800 --> 00:36:22,759 Speaker 1: I assume like the ventilations, lighting, or if a room 646 00:36:22,840 --> 00:36:26,280 Speaker 1: is just colder because it's in a different floor or whatever, 647 00:36:26,320 --> 00:36:28,879 Speaker 1: those kind of things. I'm sure you've thought of all 648 00:36:28,920 --> 00:36:30,960 Speaker 1: those things. Well, we have, but I mean, I think 649 00:36:31,000 --> 00:36:33,279 Speaker 1: these are quite subtle things you're not For example, if 650 00:36:33,280 --> 00:36:37,240 Speaker 1: you're in a room, you you maybe not consciously thinking about, 651 00:36:37,400 --> 00:36:39,920 Speaker 1: you know, how light or how dark the room is 652 00:36:40,000 --> 00:36:43,160 Speaker 1: relative to light in the corridor outside. And when we 653 00:36:43,160 --> 00:36:44,960 Speaker 1: we found that that was one of the factors that 654 00:36:45,120 --> 00:36:47,880 Speaker 1: seemed to influence I think what might be happening at 655 00:36:47,960 --> 00:36:50,759 Speaker 1: least you know, this doesn't explain August at all, but 656 00:36:50,960 --> 00:36:53,560 Speaker 1: you know what, what we observed was that people may 657 00:36:53,560 --> 00:36:57,720 Speaker 1: be unconsciously responding to subtle things in their environment without 658 00:36:57,719 --> 00:36:59,040 Speaker 1: being aware of it. It's not that there was like 659 00:36:59,400 --> 00:37:02,120 Speaker 1: a blowing through, but you know, there could be quite 660 00:37:02,160 --> 00:37:07,440 Speaker 1: subtle even things like geomagnetic activity. So you know, um, 661 00:37:07,480 --> 00:37:10,560 Speaker 1: you know, very very subtle kind of environmental things that 662 00:37:10,640 --> 00:37:13,880 Speaker 1: we don't normally pay any attention to maybe having some 663 00:37:13,960 --> 00:37:17,439 Speaker 1: influence on us. Another another study, if I've got time 664 00:37:17,440 --> 00:37:19,400 Speaker 1: to mention, it's not study that that I did, but 665 00:37:19,840 --> 00:37:22,879 Speaker 1: it was about infrasound. Um, so this is someone called 666 00:37:22,960 --> 00:37:25,400 Speaker 1: Vic Tandy, who found that he was working in a 667 00:37:25,440 --> 00:37:29,560 Speaker 1: workshop and and he noticed he kept getting this kind 668 00:37:29,560 --> 00:37:31,520 Speaker 1: of blurring in his vision and kept seeing a figure 669 00:37:31,600 --> 00:37:34,960 Speaker 1: off to his to his right, and um, he felt 670 00:37:35,000 --> 00:37:37,440 Speaker 1: it was haunted. He felt it was quite a booky experience. 671 00:37:38,040 --> 00:37:40,799 Speaker 1: And then one day he had one of these big 672 00:37:40,840 --> 00:37:44,520 Speaker 1: fencing swords, you know, a file that's thank you. He 673 00:37:44,680 --> 00:37:47,239 Speaker 1: had it clamped in this workshop and he noticed that 674 00:37:47,280 --> 00:37:50,440 Speaker 1: it started to vibrate. And he was an engineer, so 675 00:37:50,520 --> 00:37:52,800 Speaker 1: he was kind of curious, why is it kind of vibrating? 676 00:37:52,840 --> 00:37:54,600 Speaker 1: And he moved it up and down the workshop and 677 00:37:54,640 --> 00:37:57,680 Speaker 1: he discovered that there was a kind of a standing wave. 678 00:37:57,760 --> 00:38:00,239 Speaker 1: So there was a very low energy sound wave in 679 00:38:00,280 --> 00:38:02,799 Speaker 1: the workshop that you couldn't hear. It was too low 680 00:38:02,960 --> 00:38:06,440 Speaker 1: for our auditory system, but it was the foil was 681 00:38:06,520 --> 00:38:09,600 Speaker 1: picking it up. And he discovered that there was a 682 00:38:09,640 --> 00:38:12,240 Speaker 1: new air conditioning system had been put in. This big 683 00:38:12,320 --> 00:38:16,000 Speaker 1: kind of fan was creating a kind of vibration, or 684 00:38:16,000 --> 00:38:19,320 Speaker 1: a low energy vibration in the room. And that he believed, 685 00:38:19,360 --> 00:38:21,799 Speaker 1: and there's evidence from elsewhere as well, that that can 686 00:38:21,920 --> 00:38:25,160 Speaker 1: cause kind of strange visual effects because it can affect 687 00:38:25,239 --> 00:38:29,520 Speaker 1: you that your eyeballs. So he thought it started off 688 00:38:29,520 --> 00:38:31,960 Speaker 1: as a kind of haunting experience. But he believed that 689 00:38:32,000 --> 00:38:34,520 Speaker 1: he found a kind of physical explanation for it. But 690 00:38:34,600 --> 00:38:36,239 Speaker 1: it took a little bit of detective work. You know, 691 00:38:36,239 --> 00:38:39,879 Speaker 1: it wasn't at all obvious what what the cause was, right, 692 00:38:40,239 --> 00:38:42,960 Speaker 1: It's just so interesting as you're talking and thinking of 693 00:38:43,480 --> 00:38:47,319 Speaker 1: crystals and how certain kinds of stones could be have 694 00:38:47,480 --> 00:38:51,080 Speaker 1: different pulls depending on what your body has made out of. 695 00:38:51,200 --> 00:38:53,560 Speaker 1: So you have to take all of this into consideration, 696 00:38:53,600 --> 00:38:56,400 Speaker 1: which I'm sure you do. It's just such a fascinating 697 00:38:56,520 --> 00:38:58,560 Speaker 1: line of work. I mean, it seems like you would 698 00:38:58,560 --> 00:39:01,680 Speaker 1: never be boring. It never does get boring. No, no, 699 00:39:02,000 --> 00:39:04,239 Speaker 1: except if I've got a hundred and fifty essays to mark. 700 00:39:04,680 --> 00:39:07,360 Speaker 1: Oh jeez, Okay, well I will let you go. But 701 00:39:07,480 --> 00:39:10,960 Speaker 1: I just wanted to Are you a spiritual person a 702 00:39:11,000 --> 00:39:14,200 Speaker 1: religious person? No? I I like mother Nature. You know, 703 00:39:14,280 --> 00:39:18,080 Speaker 1: I loved the environment and you know the planet. But 704 00:39:18,239 --> 00:39:21,040 Speaker 1: you know I'm not I'm not a spiritual person. I 705 00:39:21,080 --> 00:39:24,880 Speaker 1: don't think even in like these psychic moments, does it 706 00:39:25,000 --> 00:39:27,440 Speaker 1: make you feel more connected to anything inside yourself or 707 00:39:27,440 --> 00:39:30,240 Speaker 1: anything else or to the other person. Well, I suppose 708 00:39:30,239 --> 00:39:33,319 Speaker 1: I'm normally the person who's running the experiment rather than 709 00:39:33,640 --> 00:39:37,200 Speaker 1: having the experience myself. Have you ever had an experience 710 00:39:37,200 --> 00:39:40,440 Speaker 1: where it just like sent chills up your spine and 711 00:39:40,520 --> 00:39:44,680 Speaker 1: it just made you feel like maybe there is something? Yeah, yeah, 712 00:39:44,800 --> 00:39:47,480 Speaker 1: I had to. I mean actually, um so one of 713 00:39:47,480 --> 00:39:50,799 Speaker 1: the things I did was Richard Wiseman again, was that 714 00:39:50,840 --> 00:39:53,960 Speaker 1: we were doing a kind of theatrical event which was 715 00:39:54,160 --> 00:39:57,839 Speaker 1: a recreation of a Victorian seance. Okay, so see, never 716 00:39:57,880 --> 00:40:01,680 Speaker 1: a dull moment in my in my job, right, And 717 00:40:02,200 --> 00:40:03,960 Speaker 1: what we were doing was it was kind of an 718 00:40:03,960 --> 00:40:08,040 Speaker 1: experiment because you know, we weren't trying to raise any spirits, okay, 719 00:40:08,520 --> 00:40:10,920 Speaker 1: without giving any secrets away, I was kind of helping 720 00:40:10,960 --> 00:40:13,520 Speaker 1: out behind the scenes, shall always say. And I had 721 00:40:13,560 --> 00:40:15,480 Speaker 1: to hide, so I was like a kind of secret 722 00:40:15,520 --> 00:40:18,759 Speaker 1: accomplice I had to hide in. It was down down 723 00:40:18,920 --> 00:40:22,319 Speaker 1: in Mary King's Close actually, and I was down there 724 00:40:22,360 --> 00:40:24,360 Speaker 1: on my own waiting for the group to arrive, and 725 00:40:24,360 --> 00:40:27,959 Speaker 1: I could hear footsteps around me, and um, I thought, 726 00:40:28,000 --> 00:40:30,759 Speaker 1: that's really strange because I know there's nobody else here, 727 00:40:30,800 --> 00:40:33,040 Speaker 1: and yeah, I could hear the footsteps. So that was 728 00:40:33,120 --> 00:40:35,160 Speaker 1: definitely a you know, a hair standing off at the 729 00:40:35,200 --> 00:40:38,239 Speaker 1: back of my neck experience. Oh my gosh. Well, I 730 00:40:38,320 --> 00:40:40,920 Speaker 1: definitely would love to check in in like five years 731 00:40:40,960 --> 00:40:43,719 Speaker 1: and see what other creepy things you experience, because I 732 00:40:43,719 --> 00:40:46,520 Speaker 1: bet if you're opening yourself up to it, as you said, 733 00:40:46,840 --> 00:40:49,880 Speaker 1: you might be receiving more creepy things in your life. 734 00:40:50,480 --> 00:40:53,000 Speaker 1: I hope so, I hope so well. I just want 735 00:40:53,000 --> 00:40:55,040 Speaker 1: to say thank you very much. If you would like 736 00:40:55,080 --> 00:40:57,759 Speaker 1: to tell our listeners where to find you or more 737 00:40:57,840 --> 00:41:01,560 Speaker 1: information about you, now would be the dame. Just you 738 00:41:01,600 --> 00:41:04,360 Speaker 1: can tell about a girl like a website or Cussler 739 00:41:04,640 --> 00:41:08,080 Speaker 1: Parapsychology Unit. That's our website, and on that you can 740 00:41:08,120 --> 00:41:10,640 Speaker 1: find a little bit more about what we do and 741 00:41:10,760 --> 00:41:13,359 Speaker 1: hopefully you might be able to get involved. Great. Well, 742 00:41:13,360 --> 00:41:17,560 Speaker 1: if you ever need somebody to study, I'm your girl, right. 743 00:41:18,040 --> 00:41:20,399 Speaker 1: Thank you so much. Thanks for infoting me. It's been fun.