1 00:00:15,356 --> 00:00:24,116 Speaker 1: Bushkin. Hi, I'm Moe, the producer of Deep Background. You're 2 00:00:24,156 --> 00:00:27,036 Speaker 1: probably wondering why you're hearing from me. Well, Noah woke 3 00:00:27,116 --> 00:00:29,756 Speaker 1: up this morning with laryngitis. Don't worry, he's fine. He 4 00:00:29,836 --> 00:00:33,556 Speaker 1: just lost his voice. Today's episode of Deep Background is 5 00:00:33,556 --> 00:00:37,476 Speaker 1: with Mark Oppenheimer. Mark is a fantastic writer and journalist 6 00:00:37,516 --> 00:00:40,596 Speaker 1: who spent the last few years documenting the recovery of 7 00:00:40,676 --> 00:00:45,076 Speaker 1: Pittsburgh's Squirrel Hill neighborhood. Squirrel Hill is a historic Jewish 8 00:00:45,076 --> 00:00:47,396 Speaker 1: neighborhood and was the site of the Tree of Life 9 00:00:47,476 --> 00:00:51,756 Speaker 1: Synagogue shooting in twenty eighteen. Oppenheimer's upcoming book is called 10 00:00:51,836 --> 00:00:54,756 Speaker 1: Squirrel Hill, The Tree of Life Synagogue Shooting and the 11 00:00:54,756 --> 00:00:57,396 Speaker 1: Soul of a Neighborhood, and it comes out next Tuesday, 12 00:00:57,516 --> 00:01:00,516 Speaker 1: October fifth. This episode is a really great one, and 13 00:01:00,556 --> 00:01:03,156 Speaker 1: I know it's close to Noah's hard The interview was 14 00:01:03,156 --> 00:01:05,236 Speaker 1: taped a while back, so I'll let Noah take it 15 00:01:05,276 --> 00:01:13,876 Speaker 1: from here. Mark, thank you so much for being here. 16 00:01:14,156 --> 00:01:17,236 Speaker 1: I admire all the different kinds of work that you do. 17 00:01:17,316 --> 00:01:19,756 Speaker 1: I think of you as a public intellectual on religion 18 00:01:19,956 --> 00:01:23,836 Speaker 1: and a reporter and a memorist of no mean talents. 19 00:01:24,396 --> 00:01:26,716 Speaker 1: But the thing I really wanted to talk about today 20 00:01:26,836 --> 00:01:29,996 Speaker 1: grew out of my fascination when I heard that in 21 00:01:30,036 --> 00:01:33,956 Speaker 1: the aftermath of the October twenty eighteen shooting at the 22 00:01:34,036 --> 00:01:38,156 Speaker 1: Tree of Life Synagogue in the Squirrel Hill neighborhood of Pittsburgh, 23 00:01:38,196 --> 00:01:42,436 Speaker 1: that you responded by diving into the life of Squirrel 24 00:01:42,556 --> 00:01:45,876 Speaker 1: Hill and that you're actually in the process of writing 25 00:01:45,916 --> 00:01:49,556 Speaker 1: a book about the Jewish community there and it's healing. 26 00:01:49,596 --> 00:01:52,636 Speaker 1: And I thought, what an extraordinary opportunity to talk to 27 00:01:52,676 --> 00:01:56,956 Speaker 1: a chronicler of contemporary American Jewish religious life about something 28 00:01:57,116 --> 00:02:01,836 Speaker 1: while he's actually doing it in real time. So tell 29 00:02:01,876 --> 00:02:04,476 Speaker 1: me first, what gave you the instinct to get on 30 00:02:04,516 --> 00:02:08,396 Speaker 1: a plane and go to Pittsburgh. Yes, thanks for having 31 00:02:08,396 --> 00:02:10,876 Speaker 1: me on. It's an honor, and I'm a fan of 32 00:02:10,876 --> 00:02:12,756 Speaker 1: the show, so it's great to be in conversation with you, 33 00:02:12,796 --> 00:02:14,596 Speaker 1: and I really admire your work and thank you for 34 00:02:14,636 --> 00:02:16,876 Speaker 1: having me on. My father grew up in Squirrel Hill, 35 00:02:16,956 --> 00:02:20,236 Speaker 1: and so did his father and his grandfather, and my 36 00:02:20,276 --> 00:02:23,316 Speaker 1: family goes back in Pittsburgh into the eighteen forties when 37 00:02:23,636 --> 00:02:28,116 Speaker 1: my great great great grandfather, Wilhelm or William Frank, was 38 00:02:28,196 --> 00:02:32,596 Speaker 1: one of four Jews who got together to a choir 39 00:02:32,716 --> 00:02:35,716 Speaker 1: land for the first cemetery, the first Jewish cemetery in Pittsburgh. 40 00:02:35,756 --> 00:02:38,196 Speaker 1: And for Jews, you know, one of the first things 41 00:02:38,236 --> 00:02:40,956 Speaker 1: you build in addition to a ritual bath is a cemetery. 42 00:02:40,956 --> 00:02:43,636 Speaker 1: If if you're staying, putting down roots, and you're staying 43 00:02:43,996 --> 00:02:47,636 Speaker 1: in a particular community, you need a burial ground. So 44 00:02:47,996 --> 00:02:50,756 Speaker 1: there were four Jews who in eighteen forty seven acquired 45 00:02:50,836 --> 00:02:53,916 Speaker 1: land for the first Jewish burial ground in Pittsburgh. And 46 00:02:54,316 --> 00:02:56,996 Speaker 1: as I say, my great great great grandfather was among those. 47 00:02:57,356 --> 00:02:59,356 Speaker 1: That's genuinely fascinating its own right. I didn't know you 48 00:02:59,396 --> 00:03:03,036 Speaker 1: came from that particular slice of American Jewish life. You know, 49 00:03:03,076 --> 00:03:05,516 Speaker 1: I've always been fascinated by Squirrel Hill, and I'm really 50 00:03:05,516 --> 00:03:07,836 Speaker 1: interested to hear that your family is actually from there. 51 00:03:07,876 --> 00:03:12,276 Speaker 1: I have had just a large number of friends, teachers, 52 00:03:12,356 --> 00:03:16,436 Speaker 1: and mentors who all grew up in Squirrel Hill in 53 00:03:16,476 --> 00:03:19,876 Speaker 1: the sixties and seventies who have sort of become incredibly 54 00:03:19,996 --> 00:03:23,716 Speaker 1: prominent intellectuals. My colleague Joseph Kerner, who's one of the 55 00:03:23,796 --> 00:03:26,796 Speaker 1: leading artist darians in the world. My colleague Bill Rubinstein, 56 00:03:26,836 --> 00:03:29,716 Speaker 1: who's one of the founders of the study of gainus 57 00:03:30,116 --> 00:03:34,436 Speaker 1: in the law, Evan Wolfson, who ran the Marriage Project 58 00:03:34,476 --> 00:03:37,876 Speaker 1: for many years pushing gay marriage, Harry Littman, who went 59 00:03:37,916 --> 00:03:40,476 Speaker 1: on to become a US attorney for Pittsburgh. And they 60 00:03:40,476 --> 00:03:42,196 Speaker 1: all grew up in Squirrel Hill. They all went to 61 00:03:42,196 --> 00:03:44,196 Speaker 1: the same high school, they had the same high school 62 00:03:44,196 --> 00:03:47,516 Speaker 1: English teacher. Your gut is correct that Squirrel Hill is 63 00:03:47,516 --> 00:03:50,796 Speaker 1: something special, and it has been Jewish longer, I think 64 00:03:50,836 --> 00:03:54,956 Speaker 1: it's safe to say, than any other American Jewish neighborhood. 65 00:03:55,076 --> 00:03:58,356 Speaker 1: So Jews, like other human beings, and like Americans in particular, 66 00:03:58,796 --> 00:04:01,676 Speaker 1: like moving from place to place. You know, We're always 67 00:04:01,716 --> 00:04:05,036 Speaker 1: looking for the next frontier. And so most Jewish communities 68 00:04:05,076 --> 00:04:07,796 Speaker 1: turn over after thirty or forty or fifty years. The 69 00:04:07,876 --> 00:04:10,516 Speaker 1: Jews in the neighborhood moves more else, and another immigrant 70 00:04:10,516 --> 00:04:14,036 Speaker 1: group or another upwardly mobile group or downwardly mobile sometimes 71 00:04:14,156 --> 00:04:17,436 Speaker 1: moves into wherever the Jews were. Squirrel Hill has been 72 00:04:17,716 --> 00:04:21,756 Speaker 1: a real exception to that rule. It's never been majority Jewish. 73 00:04:21,756 --> 00:04:24,076 Speaker 1: It likely peaked at forty or forty five percent Jewish, 74 00:04:24,076 --> 00:04:26,356 Speaker 1: but it has been substantially Jewish since World War One, 75 00:04:26,396 --> 00:04:29,556 Speaker 1: so one hundred years exactly, and it is still the 76 00:04:29,636 --> 00:04:34,556 Speaker 1: case that that about fifty percent of the Jews in 77 00:04:34,596 --> 00:04:37,876 Speaker 1: metropolitan Pittsburgh live either in Squirrel Hill or in one 78 00:04:37,916 --> 00:04:40,116 Speaker 1: of the adjacent neighborhoods in the East End of Pittsburgh 79 00:04:40,156 --> 00:04:42,716 Speaker 1: within the city limits. So that's also to say that, 80 00:04:42,876 --> 00:04:46,396 Speaker 1: unlike the Jews of Boston or Chicago, the Jews of 81 00:04:46,436 --> 00:04:50,476 Speaker 1: Pittsburgh did not become an overwhelmingly suburban people. Half of 82 00:04:50,516 --> 00:04:53,556 Speaker 1: the Jews are still within the city limits, centered around 83 00:04:53,636 --> 00:04:56,036 Speaker 1: the Squirrel Hill neighborhood. So it's a very very interesting 84 00:04:56,076 --> 00:04:59,076 Speaker 1: place in American and world Jewish history. So Mark, one 85 00:04:59,116 --> 00:05:00,996 Speaker 1: of the things that I'm trying to do on this 86 00:05:01,036 --> 00:05:05,436 Speaker 1: podcast is enable people who don't, for example, write books, 87 00:05:05,836 --> 00:05:08,676 Speaker 1: to get a glimpse behind the scenes, not just talk 88 00:05:08,676 --> 00:05:10,756 Speaker 1: about the book as a finished artifact, which we all 89 00:05:10,756 --> 00:05:13,436 Speaker 1: like to do, but also to find out about the process. 90 00:05:13,836 --> 00:05:15,676 Speaker 1: So I want you to lift the veil for us 91 00:05:15,676 --> 00:05:19,916 Speaker 1: a little bit. You go to Squirrel Hill, it's after 92 00:05:20,396 --> 00:05:23,556 Speaker 1: the horrible attack. What do you do on a daily 93 00:05:23,596 --> 00:05:26,116 Speaker 1: basis when you're there? How do you go about creating 94 00:05:26,116 --> 00:05:28,116 Speaker 1: a network of people whom do you talk to? Like, 95 00:05:28,156 --> 00:05:32,396 Speaker 1: what do you actually do every day? Okay, I'm so 96 00:05:32,436 --> 00:05:34,476 Speaker 1: glad you asked about that, because I think it's really 97 00:05:34,476 --> 00:05:40,236 Speaker 1: important to demystify the process that journalists and writers go 98 00:05:40,316 --> 00:05:43,956 Speaker 1: through when they research and when they write. For me. 99 00:05:44,116 --> 00:05:47,956 Speaker 1: In this case, it began with asking a couple of 100 00:05:47,996 --> 00:05:51,116 Speaker 1: people who I knew were from the neighborhood, who are 101 00:05:51,156 --> 00:05:53,956 Speaker 1: the Jews who know everybody else? And who are the 102 00:05:53,956 --> 00:05:56,716 Speaker 1: people who who will be happy to talk about it? Right? Like, 103 00:05:56,796 --> 00:06:01,596 Speaker 1: who are the local the mayors of Squirrel Hill? Right? Interestingly, 104 00:06:02,716 --> 00:06:05,476 Speaker 1: this is terribly, terribly sad. Two of the mayors of 105 00:06:05,476 --> 00:06:09,396 Speaker 1: Squirrel Hill were the mentally disabled brothers who were murder 106 00:06:09,476 --> 00:06:12,636 Speaker 1: Cecil and David Rosenthal, who really did walk around Squirrel 107 00:06:12,716 --> 00:06:15,636 Speaker 1: Hill and pop in at storefronts and at the fire station. 108 00:06:15,916 --> 00:06:19,316 Speaker 1: They knew everybody. But I was given some very good tips, 109 00:06:19,356 --> 00:06:21,396 Speaker 1: and the same names kept coming up over and over again. 110 00:06:21,396 --> 00:06:23,476 Speaker 1: You should talk to this person or this person. So 111 00:06:23,516 --> 00:06:25,596 Speaker 1: I began with a list of about a dozen people, 112 00:06:25,996 --> 00:06:28,676 Speaker 1: and I started flying to Squirrel Hill about once a week. 113 00:06:29,076 --> 00:06:31,756 Speaker 1: I would either fly out of Logan Airport in Boston 114 00:06:31,876 --> 00:06:34,796 Speaker 1: or LaGuardia Airport in New York City, and I would 115 00:06:34,836 --> 00:06:37,156 Speaker 1: fly very early in the morning at six am, pick 116 00:06:37,236 --> 00:06:39,956 Speaker 1: up a car, drive into Squirrel Hill, fighting the morning 117 00:06:39,996 --> 00:06:42,956 Speaker 1: traffic into the city and get to the neighborhood around 118 00:06:42,996 --> 00:06:44,556 Speaker 1: nine am, and then I would try to talk to 119 00:06:44,556 --> 00:06:47,876 Speaker 1: five or six people. You were really doing these marathon days. 120 00:06:47,876 --> 00:06:49,556 Speaker 1: You must have been getting up at three o'clock in 121 00:06:49,596 --> 00:06:52,476 Speaker 1: the morning. That's right. I was doing eighteen hour days. 122 00:06:52,596 --> 00:06:56,196 Speaker 1: And I did this thirty one times in sixteen months. 123 00:06:56,676 --> 00:06:59,316 Speaker 1: And my wife was heroic and very supportive about saying 124 00:06:59,356 --> 00:07:01,716 Speaker 1: this does seem like an important project. But the deal 125 00:07:01,756 --> 00:07:03,956 Speaker 1: that I made with her, and I think just as 126 00:07:03,956 --> 00:07:06,516 Speaker 1: important with myself, was that I was going to think 127 00:07:06,516 --> 00:07:09,076 Speaker 1: of myself as not being a dad or a husband 128 00:07:09,516 --> 00:07:12,636 Speaker 1: one day a week, so typically Wednesday or Thursday, I 129 00:07:12,876 --> 00:07:16,476 Speaker 1: just didn't exist. And you know, we paid some extra 130 00:07:16,516 --> 00:07:18,756 Speaker 1: for babysitting, and my parents helped out some who live 131 00:07:18,796 --> 00:07:22,396 Speaker 1: in western Massachusetts, and my wife worked harder on those 132 00:07:22,516 --> 00:07:25,356 Speaker 1: days and held it all together with the kids. But 133 00:07:25,476 --> 00:07:28,236 Speaker 1: by the time everyone woke up the next morning, I 134 00:07:28,276 --> 00:07:30,996 Speaker 1: was back home. And so the question I went to 135 00:07:30,996 --> 00:07:34,836 Speaker 1: Pittsburgh with was how does a tight knit Jewish neighborhood 136 00:07:34,876 --> 00:07:38,076 Speaker 1: come together in the aftermath of tragedy. So I did 137 00:07:38,076 --> 00:07:39,396 Speaker 1: have a sense that I wanted to get a couple 138 00:07:39,516 --> 00:07:42,316 Speaker 1: hundred interviews at least, and I wanted people who were 139 00:07:42,436 --> 00:07:45,916 Speaker 1: from all range of Jewish observance, from the most observant 140 00:07:45,956 --> 00:07:49,636 Speaker 1: orthodox to totally secular. I wanted non Jews, and I 141 00:07:49,676 --> 00:07:52,516 Speaker 1: wanted non white people, and I wanted people from all 142 00:07:52,596 --> 00:07:56,036 Speaker 1: different parts of the neighborhood and the adjacent neighborhoods. But 143 00:07:56,796 --> 00:07:59,956 Speaker 1: at a certain point, certain characters began to seem really, 144 00:07:59,956 --> 00:08:03,796 Speaker 1: really interesting, and they seem to for whatever reason, they 145 00:08:03,836 --> 00:08:07,756 Speaker 1: seemed to be on journeys that would be interesting to readers. Right, 146 00:08:07,836 --> 00:08:13,716 Speaker 1: how did these institutions school, synagogue, public high school, supermarket, 147 00:08:13,756 --> 00:08:16,236 Speaker 1: the Giant Eagle market is where everyone sees everyone in 148 00:08:16,276 --> 00:08:18,516 Speaker 1: Squirrel Hill, the Giant Eagle on Murray Avenue. So how 149 00:08:18,516 --> 00:08:21,916 Speaker 1: do all these institutions bring people together to make meaning 150 00:08:21,996 --> 00:08:23,996 Speaker 1: and care for each other in the aftermath of something 151 00:08:23,996 --> 00:08:28,596 Speaker 1: really terrible? And some characters did end up encapsulating certain 152 00:08:28,676 --> 00:08:31,036 Speaker 1: answers to that better than other characters. So there are 153 00:08:31,076 --> 00:08:33,916 Speaker 1: people I began to go back and reinterview. Has anything 154 00:08:33,956 --> 00:08:36,996 Speaker 1: really surprised you in terms of the overall picture of 155 00:08:37,236 --> 00:08:39,996 Speaker 1: how does a community bounce back? I mean, it is 156 00:08:39,996 --> 00:08:41,596 Speaker 1: the kind of thing where you must have had an 157 00:08:41,596 --> 00:08:44,636 Speaker 1: instinct at first about what you expected. You spend a 158 00:08:44,636 --> 00:08:47,596 Speaker 1: lot of time in communities and Jewish communities and urban communities. 159 00:08:47,876 --> 00:08:50,196 Speaker 1: You have, as it were, a general sociological theory of 160 00:08:50,276 --> 00:08:54,316 Speaker 1: how these communities do their thing. Right. Is there something 161 00:08:54,356 --> 00:08:57,196 Speaker 1: that you found that really blew you away in terms 162 00:08:57,236 --> 00:08:59,236 Speaker 1: of surprise? I mean, you could not be surprised and 163 00:08:59,236 --> 00:09:01,916 Speaker 1: so write a spectacular book, but surprise would be interesting 164 00:09:01,956 --> 00:09:05,476 Speaker 1: from their perspective of the listener, I think, sure, we 165 00:09:05,516 --> 00:09:08,236 Speaker 1: all know that life snaps back to normal pretty fast, 166 00:09:08,676 --> 00:09:12,276 Speaker 1: but it's still is really surprising to see. And I 167 00:09:12,276 --> 00:09:14,756 Speaker 1: think this is a good thing. It speaks to people's resilience, 168 00:09:14,876 --> 00:09:18,316 Speaker 1: but it is a little surprising to see how normal 169 00:09:18,356 --> 00:09:22,516 Speaker 1: stuff begins to feel again for most people very shortly 170 00:09:22,556 --> 00:09:25,996 Speaker 1: after something terrible has happened. Now, this is something that's 171 00:09:26,036 --> 00:09:30,236 Speaker 1: culturally conditioned, right. So in Israel, for example, when there's 172 00:09:30,236 --> 00:09:32,316 Speaker 1: a bombing at a cafe in the morning, they sweep 173 00:09:32,396 --> 00:09:34,476 Speaker 1: up the debris and they try to get back in 174 00:09:34,556 --> 00:09:37,836 Speaker 1: and open for dinner, because that's how they have to 175 00:09:37,876 --> 00:09:40,476 Speaker 1: be as a culture, because there's been so much terrorism 176 00:09:40,516 --> 00:09:42,556 Speaker 1: in their past. And you see that a lot in 177 00:09:42,596 --> 00:09:46,436 Speaker 1: war zones that people can claw back a semblance of 178 00:09:46,476 --> 00:09:51,076 Speaker 1: normalcy really really fast. And then the American tradition is 179 00:09:51,156 --> 00:09:55,156 Speaker 1: much more that we like memorializing things, and we tend 180 00:09:55,316 --> 00:09:59,236 Speaker 1: to hold onto our grief as almost a comfort a 181 00:09:59,276 --> 00:10:03,196 Speaker 1: bit longer. And you saw both impulses in Pittsburgh. So 182 00:10:04,756 --> 00:10:08,156 Speaker 1: for many many people, life returned to something seeming very normal, 183 00:10:08,796 --> 00:10:11,516 Speaker 1: very quickly, especially if they didn't know someone who was killed. Now, look, 184 00:10:11,556 --> 00:10:13,636 Speaker 1: eleven people out of the twenty two people inside the 185 00:10:13,636 --> 00:10:17,796 Speaker 1: building were shot dead and two of the other eleven 186 00:10:17,796 --> 00:10:21,916 Speaker 1: survivors were wounded. Everyone knew somebody whom this touched on, right, 187 00:10:22,116 --> 00:10:23,556 Speaker 1: But if you were a little bit removed from it, 188 00:10:23,556 --> 00:10:26,116 Speaker 1: if you didn't have a close friend or relative who 189 00:10:26,156 --> 00:10:27,796 Speaker 1: died or was inside the building, if you were one 190 00:10:27,836 --> 00:10:30,596 Speaker 1: or two degrees of separation out, for a lot of 191 00:10:30,596 --> 00:10:32,916 Speaker 1: those people, life snapped back to normal very fast. For 192 00:10:33,156 --> 00:10:35,276 Speaker 1: some of them, actually, the guilt of not having been 193 00:10:35,356 --> 00:10:40,756 Speaker 1: at synagogue that day plagued them forevermore. We'll be right back. 194 00:10:50,436 --> 00:10:52,876 Speaker 1: This is a really fascinating angle that you're pointing out 195 00:10:52,876 --> 00:10:55,796 Speaker 1: in you mentioned the American tendency to sit with our 196 00:10:55,836 --> 00:10:59,876 Speaker 1: grief and memorialize, and you mentioned the sort of Israeli 197 00:10:59,916 --> 00:11:02,556 Speaker 1: approach which tends to be let's try to get things 198 00:11:02,596 --> 00:11:04,836 Speaker 1: back to normal as quickly as possible, partly for the 199 00:11:04,876 --> 00:11:08,116 Speaker 1: eological reason that Design as Project is committed to the 200 00:11:08,156 --> 00:11:11,516 Speaker 1: idea of bouncing back and achieving normalcy. This was, after all, 201 00:11:11,516 --> 00:11:13,996 Speaker 1: a movement that began with the goal of becoming a 202 00:11:14,036 --> 00:11:17,156 Speaker 1: quote unquote normal people, whatever that exactly was supposed to mean. 203 00:11:17,436 --> 00:11:19,236 Speaker 1: But there's another option, which is that if you're in 204 00:11:19,276 --> 00:11:22,996 Speaker 1: a place which has been seriously war torn or seriously 205 00:11:23,036 --> 00:11:27,676 Speaker 1: affected by terrorism, much more consistently than even than Israel 206 00:11:27,716 --> 00:11:31,716 Speaker 1: has been, you do get circumstances of repetitive trauma. There 207 00:11:31,756 --> 00:11:36,676 Speaker 1: are communities that become just genuinely traumatized. And the option 208 00:11:36,676 --> 00:11:39,196 Speaker 1: that you were describing the sort of hybrid of the 209 00:11:39,236 --> 00:11:42,396 Speaker 1: American in the Israeli it sort of depends on being 210 00:11:42,436 --> 00:11:45,916 Speaker 1: a community that doesn't think of itself as in danger 211 00:11:46,116 --> 00:11:49,116 Speaker 1: for its very survival or in danger for its very existence, 212 00:11:49,156 --> 00:11:51,636 Speaker 1: or at least that would be my hypothesis. I mean, 213 00:11:51,676 --> 00:11:53,676 Speaker 1: it's a it's a kind of luxury to be able 214 00:11:53,676 --> 00:11:56,396 Speaker 1: to bounce back and think this isn't going to happen 215 00:11:56,396 --> 00:12:00,436 Speaker 1: again next week or next month. You know, I'm scared, 216 00:12:00,476 --> 00:12:02,636 Speaker 1: I'm upset, but I know that rationally we can, we 217 00:12:02,636 --> 00:12:05,436 Speaker 1: can get back to life being normal. And I want 218 00:12:05,436 --> 00:12:08,236 Speaker 1: to just first ask you, do you buy this hypothesis 219 00:12:08,276 --> 00:12:10,596 Speaker 1: that in a way, it's a kind of a privilege 220 00:12:10,716 --> 00:12:13,516 Speaker 1: for a community to be able to say we're bouncing 221 00:12:13,516 --> 00:12:16,996 Speaker 1: back from a terrible tragedy like this one. I do 222 00:12:17,076 --> 00:12:20,316 Speaker 1: buy that hypothesis. I do think that it's a privilege 223 00:12:20,316 --> 00:12:22,796 Speaker 1: and it speaks to their sense that they can still 224 00:12:22,836 --> 00:12:26,716 Speaker 1: be the ideal American Jewish neighborhood again, which entails not 225 00:12:26,836 --> 00:12:29,996 Speaker 1: being a victim again anytime soon. I did talk to 226 00:12:30,036 --> 00:12:32,556 Speaker 1: a couple of people for whom the synagogue attack in 227 00:12:32,596 --> 00:12:35,716 Speaker 1: Powe in southern California, which was six months after the 228 00:12:36,276 --> 00:12:39,396 Speaker 1: attack on Tree of Life, I don't want to say 229 00:12:39,676 --> 00:12:43,036 Speaker 1: even worse, but it was more painful for them because 230 00:12:43,156 --> 00:12:45,996 Speaker 1: there was a way in which these couple people whom 231 00:12:46,036 --> 00:12:48,676 Speaker 1: I interviewed had sort of bracketed Tree of Life as 232 00:12:48,676 --> 00:12:52,876 Speaker 1: this one time, horrible exception that was devastating but also 233 00:12:53,076 --> 00:12:57,636 Speaker 1: an outlier, a total outlier. And if there was another attack, 234 00:12:57,676 --> 00:12:59,916 Speaker 1: and of course in powwe what one person died or 235 00:12:59,956 --> 00:13:03,396 Speaker 1: two people died, but not eleven, So that felt like, oh, 236 00:13:03,476 --> 00:13:06,276 Speaker 1: here's a second one, a second attack on a synagogue, 237 00:13:06,556 --> 00:13:09,276 Speaker 1: and then of course we have this sort of ongoing 238 00:13:09,476 --> 00:13:12,676 Speaker 1: low level program in certain Jewish neighborhood New York City 239 00:13:12,676 --> 00:13:14,996 Speaker 1: of people being punched in the face and attacked more frequently. 240 00:13:15,356 --> 00:13:18,916 Speaker 1: So I think that you're right that the sense that 241 00:13:19,236 --> 00:13:21,716 Speaker 1: we're back to normal once it begins to feel a 242 00:13:21,756 --> 00:13:25,476 Speaker 1: little bit shaky because other things start happening, then that's 243 00:13:25,516 --> 00:13:28,316 Speaker 1: a whole kind of re injury of people who thought 244 00:13:28,356 --> 00:13:31,636 Speaker 1: that maybe they would be going on pretty well. So 245 00:13:31,676 --> 00:13:34,436 Speaker 1: that's a good segue into the next question that I 246 00:13:34,476 --> 00:13:35,996 Speaker 1: want to ask you. In the topic I want to 247 00:13:35,996 --> 00:13:38,796 Speaker 1: focus on now, there are lots of people in the 248 00:13:38,796 --> 00:13:42,756 Speaker 1: American Jewish community now who feel that the Tree of 249 00:13:42,796 --> 00:13:47,316 Speaker 1: Life attack was just one in a broader succession of 250 00:13:47,756 --> 00:13:51,956 Speaker 1: violent attacks that they see as constituting a significant trend 251 00:13:52,636 --> 00:13:57,036 Speaker 1: of anti Semitic violence, and that they associate, among other things, 252 00:13:57,276 --> 00:14:01,876 Speaker 1: with the rise of anti Semitism in association with Donald 253 00:14:01,916 --> 00:14:08,276 Speaker 1: Trump's presidency. I am to say, honestly, mildly skeptical of 254 00:14:08,316 --> 00:14:12,716 Speaker 1: the narrative of a big, new, significant trend that will 255 00:14:12,756 --> 00:14:16,596 Speaker 1: fundamentally change the perspective of American Jews, but I also 256 00:14:16,636 --> 00:14:19,236 Speaker 1: am open to being proven wrong. About that. So let 257 00:14:19,316 --> 00:14:22,436 Speaker 1: me start by just asking you where you stand on that. 258 00:14:22,516 --> 00:14:25,076 Speaker 1: Do you think of Tree of Life as you know, 259 00:14:25,276 --> 00:14:28,796 Speaker 1: one of a growing number of anti semitic attacks, or 260 00:14:28,836 --> 00:14:31,796 Speaker 1: do you think of it as to some significant degree 261 00:14:31,796 --> 00:14:34,756 Speaker 1: an outlier not only because of its severity, but because 262 00:14:34,796 --> 00:14:39,596 Speaker 1: we haven't seen an attack of exactly this type since well, look, 263 00:14:39,636 --> 00:14:42,636 Speaker 1: in some ways, the big anti semitic attack, the eleven 264 00:14:42,676 --> 00:14:47,556 Speaker 1: person shooting, like for example, mass shootings across the United States, 265 00:14:48,596 --> 00:14:50,676 Speaker 1: is always going to be an outlier, thank god, right, 266 00:14:50,676 --> 00:14:52,636 Speaker 1: I mean, when you're a country of over three hundred 267 00:14:52,636 --> 00:14:56,116 Speaker 1: million people, the eleven people shot here, or even the 268 00:14:56,236 --> 00:14:59,276 Speaker 1: fifty or however many mass shooting since nineteen ninety nine 269 00:15:00,556 --> 00:15:04,196 Speaker 1: affect a number of people that is pretty close to 270 00:15:04,276 --> 00:15:07,916 Speaker 1: zero statistically, right, So that's inshack, Mark, I mean, that 271 00:15:08,236 --> 00:15:10,876 Speaker 1: is true. Of course, you're absolutely right about that. Right. Nevertheless, 272 00:15:10,956 --> 00:15:13,676 Speaker 1: one would look since nineteen ninety nine and say, for example, 273 00:15:13,796 --> 00:15:17,796 Speaker 1: school shootings or even more broadly, institutional shootings are now 274 00:15:17,956 --> 00:15:20,196 Speaker 1: a familiar part of American life. There's a script. We're 275 00:15:20,196 --> 00:15:22,356 Speaker 1: familiar with it. And that's not only from the perspective 276 00:15:22,356 --> 00:15:25,716 Speaker 1: of observers or victims. It's also presumably from the perspective 277 00:15:25,716 --> 00:15:28,116 Speaker 1: of shooters. We even have a terminology that goes with it. 278 00:15:28,196 --> 00:15:30,356 Speaker 1: You know, we all know what the words active shooter means. 279 00:15:30,396 --> 00:15:32,276 Speaker 1: You know, my kids know the words active shooter because 280 00:15:32,316 --> 00:15:34,516 Speaker 1: they have active shooter drills in their school. This did 281 00:15:34,516 --> 00:15:36,836 Speaker 1: not exist when you and I were kids. So there 282 00:15:36,916 --> 00:15:39,196 Speaker 1: is a there is certainly a trend line there at 283 00:15:39,236 --> 00:15:42,516 Speaker 1: the broadest level. It's a real thing. It's a real thing, right. 284 00:15:42,556 --> 00:15:44,036 Speaker 1: I was just I wanted to bracket it by saying 285 00:15:44,036 --> 00:15:45,716 Speaker 1: that in some ways I was agreeing with you that 286 00:15:46,116 --> 00:15:48,356 Speaker 1: I think I was agreeing with you in that there 287 00:15:48,436 --> 00:15:51,756 Speaker 1: is a way in which the panic that all of 288 00:15:51,796 --> 00:15:55,316 Speaker 1: a sudden we're in this new age of widespread anti 289 00:15:55,316 --> 00:15:58,636 Speaker 1: semitism and anti Semitic or white nationalist violence or anti 290 00:15:58,636 --> 00:16:01,276 Speaker 1: Semitic violence from the left or the right, that we 291 00:16:01,356 --> 00:16:03,076 Speaker 1: have to be very careful where we look for evidence 292 00:16:03,116 --> 00:16:05,396 Speaker 1: for that, because the fact is not that many Jews, 293 00:16:05,836 --> 00:16:11,196 Speaker 1: not that many school children statistically speaking, have been victim however, right, However, 294 00:16:11,276 --> 00:16:13,076 Speaker 1: I actually don't think that's the most interesting way to 295 00:16:13,076 --> 00:16:14,996 Speaker 1: think about it, or the most useful way to think 296 00:16:14,996 --> 00:16:19,756 Speaker 1: about it. I go back to my old undergraduate teacher, 297 00:16:19,796 --> 00:16:24,156 Speaker 1: Paula Hyman, the great historian of French jew of French Jewry, 298 00:16:24,196 --> 00:16:28,236 Speaker 1: and of women in Judaism, who said to us in 299 00:16:28,316 --> 00:16:30,956 Speaker 1: class one day, she said, one thing that's historically been 300 00:16:30,996 --> 00:16:34,796 Speaker 1: true of anti Semitism is that in the society's word exists, 301 00:16:34,836 --> 00:16:37,356 Speaker 1: it seems always to be cyclical, that it rises and 302 00:16:37,356 --> 00:16:41,596 Speaker 1: falls and returns again, which is not a pattern that 303 00:16:41,636 --> 00:16:44,156 Speaker 1: you see as much with other forms of bigotry, which 304 00:16:44,196 --> 00:16:48,036 Speaker 1: some societies put to bed forever, or they rise occasionally, 305 00:16:48,036 --> 00:16:50,676 Speaker 1: but basically they are blips when they rise or blips 306 00:16:50,676 --> 00:16:53,476 Speaker 1: when they fall. But anti Semitism has a very sine 307 00:16:53,516 --> 00:16:59,276 Speaker 1: wave like recurrence in the places where it exists, in England, France, America, 308 00:16:59,516 --> 00:17:02,556 Speaker 1: also East Asia. It responds. It tends to flare up 309 00:17:02,556 --> 00:17:04,756 Speaker 1: in times of stress, but it also tends to flare 310 00:17:04,836 --> 00:17:07,316 Speaker 1: up somewhat randomly. And what she said to us, and 311 00:17:07,356 --> 00:17:09,876 Speaker 1: this would have been in nineteen ninety five, we are 312 00:17:09,916 --> 00:17:12,996 Speaker 1: at a low ebb for antisemitism. That's great, it's great 313 00:17:13,036 --> 00:17:15,316 Speaker 1: to live through a low ebb. It will be back. 314 00:17:16,076 --> 00:17:17,636 Speaker 1: And I think she was right, and she didn't have 315 00:17:17,676 --> 00:17:19,276 Speaker 1: a great explanation for it. By the way, I don't 316 00:17:19,316 --> 00:17:21,316 Speaker 1: think she had a well worked out theory. What she 317 00:17:21,356 --> 00:17:22,956 Speaker 1: said is it will be back and then it will 318 00:17:22,996 --> 00:17:25,716 Speaker 1: receive again. That is the nature of anti semitism. I 319 00:17:25,756 --> 00:17:27,756 Speaker 1: think that's true. I think the tide has come in 320 00:17:27,796 --> 00:17:31,156 Speaker 1: again for anti semitism, and it has various forms, but 321 00:17:31,196 --> 00:17:33,516 Speaker 1: it has a kind of cultural currency right now for 322 00:17:33,596 --> 00:17:36,596 Speaker 1: people who are inclined toward hatred or bigotry or ethnic 323 00:17:36,676 --> 00:17:39,036 Speaker 1: chauvinism that it didn't have twenty years ago, and that 324 00:17:39,076 --> 00:17:40,876 Speaker 1: I don't think it will have twenty five years from now, 325 00:17:40,956 --> 00:17:43,396 Speaker 1: right So that will then take many forms, And one 326 00:17:43,436 --> 00:17:45,116 Speaker 1: of the forms for some people is a kind of 327 00:17:45,116 --> 00:17:48,716 Speaker 1: white nationalist eliminationist antisemitism where they want to kill us. 328 00:17:49,276 --> 00:17:51,916 Speaker 1: And for some and this is a little bit trickier, 329 00:17:51,956 --> 00:17:53,716 Speaker 1: but I think just as important, it will take the 330 00:17:53,756 --> 00:17:58,356 Speaker 1: form of an indifference or a downplaying of the people 331 00:17:58,356 --> 00:18:00,276 Speaker 1: who want to kill us. I have so many questions 332 00:18:00,316 --> 00:18:01,516 Speaker 1: that I want to ask you in connection with this. 333 00:18:01,636 --> 00:18:04,476 Speaker 1: Let's start with the hypothesis that we're in an uptick 334 00:18:05,076 --> 00:18:08,436 Speaker 1: or a return of the cycle of antisemitism. Isn't it 335 00:18:08,476 --> 00:18:12,116 Speaker 1: at least that the quantum of anti semitism out there 336 00:18:12,596 --> 00:18:16,596 Speaker 1: hasn't really changed since nineteen ninety five, But that because 337 00:18:16,636 --> 00:18:20,116 Speaker 1: of social media, our consciousness of it and its capacity 338 00:18:20,116 --> 00:18:23,156 Speaker 1: to make itself known has substantially risen. So it does 339 00:18:23,196 --> 00:18:26,156 Speaker 1: seem to me at least possible that what we're experiencing 340 00:18:26,436 --> 00:18:30,436 Speaker 1: as a rise in the tide may in fact be 341 00:18:30,836 --> 00:18:34,276 Speaker 1: a greater degree of awareness of what's been out there 342 00:18:34,356 --> 00:18:36,996 Speaker 1: the whole time. And I think that might even be true. 343 00:18:37,076 --> 00:18:41,756 Speaker 1: But that's conceivably also the explanation for the attacks on 344 00:18:42,436 --> 00:18:45,716 Speaker 1: Orthodox and ultra Orthodox Jews, Hiredi Jews in the New 345 00:18:45,796 --> 00:18:49,636 Speaker 1: York area. I think it's entirely possible that these attacks 346 00:18:49,636 --> 00:18:52,716 Speaker 1: have gone on all the time, but we're not necessarily 347 00:18:52,796 --> 00:18:56,916 Speaker 1: being conceived of as distinctively anti Semitic. We're not being 348 00:18:56,956 --> 00:18:59,396 Speaker 1: reported in the same way, we're not being incorporated into 349 00:18:59,396 --> 00:19:03,036 Speaker 1: a narrative, and weren't being discussed on social media and 350 00:19:03,076 --> 00:19:05,476 Speaker 1: in other places in the same way that they are now. 351 00:19:05,676 --> 00:19:08,196 Speaker 1: I'm just suggesting it's a possibility that seems consistent with 352 00:19:08,196 --> 00:19:12,276 Speaker 1: the evidence. No, I think that's wrong. I mean, right, 353 00:19:12,316 --> 00:19:16,036 Speaker 1: we never we never know for sure what goes unreported. 354 00:19:16,956 --> 00:19:19,676 Speaker 1: But the idea that that has that the level of 355 00:19:19,676 --> 00:19:22,276 Speaker 1: anti Semitic violence we've seen going on in New York 356 00:19:22,316 --> 00:19:26,236 Speaker 1: City is nothing new, but simply this year got much 357 00:19:26,276 --> 00:19:28,316 Speaker 1: more noticed. I don't think it's true. And what's more, 358 00:19:28,396 --> 00:19:30,596 Speaker 1: I don't think the people in those communities think that 359 00:19:30,636 --> 00:19:32,796 Speaker 1: it's true. That doesn't mean they're right. People can perceive 360 00:19:32,836 --> 00:19:34,556 Speaker 1: that they're more endangered than they are and be wrong 361 00:19:34,556 --> 00:19:36,796 Speaker 1: about it, but I don't think they're wrong. I mean again, 362 00:19:36,836 --> 00:19:39,676 Speaker 1: I actually think statistically speaking, it's still close to nil. 363 00:19:39,996 --> 00:19:43,276 Speaker 1: So we're kind of talking about are their cultural vibes 364 00:19:43,676 --> 00:19:46,276 Speaker 1: that we can't pick that we can't reduce to statistics 365 00:19:46,356 --> 00:19:50,476 Speaker 1: and possibly not, Possibly this is all just noise because 366 00:19:50,836 --> 00:19:54,476 Speaker 1: you know, numbers wise, people still feel pretty safe. But 367 00:19:55,676 --> 00:19:57,076 Speaker 1: the other thing I want to get to is your 368 00:19:57,116 --> 00:19:59,396 Speaker 1: first question, which is to what extent is social media 369 00:19:59,436 --> 00:20:03,316 Speaker 1: amplifying the general perception of anti Semitism. Well, social media 370 00:20:03,356 --> 00:20:05,996 Speaker 1: amplifies everything, and one reason I don't like it, one 371 00:20:05,996 --> 00:20:07,996 Speaker 1: reason I'm not on it is I think that I 372 00:20:08,116 --> 00:20:10,396 Speaker 1: tend to do bad stuff. I'm like, I tend to 373 00:20:10,436 --> 00:20:13,156 Speaker 1: amplify my worst thoughts when I'm on social media, and 374 00:20:13,196 --> 00:20:15,676 Speaker 1: I think that it gives me bad information when I 375 00:20:15,796 --> 00:20:18,916 Speaker 1: use it to get information. So of course that's true. 376 00:20:19,036 --> 00:20:20,916 Speaker 1: I think all we can say to that is that 377 00:20:20,916 --> 00:20:24,156 Speaker 1: there are people who do try to collect data and 378 00:20:24,236 --> 00:20:26,076 Speaker 1: have tried to collec data since before the days of 379 00:20:26,116 --> 00:20:29,516 Speaker 1: social media on attacks and on hate crimes, and the 380 00:20:29,756 --> 00:20:32,156 Speaker 1: definition of hate crime has changed, as you know, there's 381 00:20:32,156 --> 00:20:34,516 Speaker 1: a legal regime around what's a hate crime and what's not. 382 00:20:34,916 --> 00:20:37,356 Speaker 1: But certainly, if you look at say the last ten years, 383 00:20:37,396 --> 00:20:40,756 Speaker 1: when we've had, if not reasonably good data, at least 384 00:20:40,796 --> 00:20:44,676 Speaker 1: reasonably assiduously collected data by people trying to do their best, 385 00:20:45,076 --> 00:20:47,916 Speaker 1: both the FBI and the Anti Defamation League would show 386 00:20:47,956 --> 00:20:50,756 Speaker 1: that there's been a pretty strong uptick in anti Semiticate crimes. 387 00:20:50,836 --> 00:20:53,276 Speaker 1: That could be something as simple as a swastika being 388 00:20:53,276 --> 00:20:55,436 Speaker 1: painted somewhere by people who might not even know the 389 00:20:55,516 --> 00:20:58,276 Speaker 1: meaning right, but that could still make Jews feel unsafe. 390 00:20:58,676 --> 00:21:02,436 Speaker 1: But also, and this is really really important, Jews right now, 391 00:21:02,596 --> 00:21:05,996 Speaker 1: of all religious groups, are and have continued to be 392 00:21:06,396 --> 00:21:10,716 Speaker 1: the most victimized in hate crime. Jews are pretty regularly 393 00:21:11,156 --> 00:21:13,676 Speaker 1: not only the most victimized in absolute numbers, but also, 394 00:21:13,716 --> 00:21:16,396 Speaker 1: given our tiny percentage of the population, the most likely 395 00:21:16,436 --> 00:21:18,556 Speaker 1: to be victimized by some sort of hate crime. So 396 00:21:18,596 --> 00:21:21,036 Speaker 1: we can quarrel with how those numbers are counted and 397 00:21:21,076 --> 00:21:23,316 Speaker 1: all that, But to the extent we've tried to get 398 00:21:23,396 --> 00:21:25,516 Speaker 1: data on it. The data really does support that we 399 00:21:25,556 --> 00:21:28,596 Speaker 1: are in a moment where anti Semitism is relatively bad 400 00:21:28,636 --> 00:21:41,956 Speaker 1: historically speaking. We'll be right back. You make an extremely 401 00:21:41,996 --> 00:21:45,236 Speaker 1: persuasive case, so let me just concede it and then 402 00:21:45,356 --> 00:21:49,036 Speaker 1: ask why. Ask the why question. Do you have a 403 00:21:49,076 --> 00:21:51,836 Speaker 1: pet theory of why? And if so, is it connected 404 00:21:51,876 --> 00:21:56,076 Speaker 1: to Trump or to the rise of populism globally? Because 405 00:21:56,116 --> 00:21:58,356 Speaker 1: it's also worth mentioning that the rise in anti Semitic 406 00:21:58,356 --> 00:22:00,916 Speaker 1: incidents is not merely in the United States, but it 407 00:22:01,036 --> 00:22:05,836 Speaker 1: is also measured globally. Well. The answer to that question 408 00:22:05,876 --> 00:22:07,876 Speaker 1: depends on how far back we want to go. Right, 409 00:22:08,356 --> 00:22:10,596 Speaker 1: we could ask why anti Semitism always with us? And 410 00:22:10,596 --> 00:22:14,036 Speaker 1: there's some pretty compelling theories that I think generally have 411 00:22:14,196 --> 00:22:17,756 Speaker 1: to do. And here I think the historian Yuri sles 412 00:22:17,796 --> 00:22:20,836 Speaker 1: Kind has written very intelligently about this, with the Jews, 413 00:22:20,916 --> 00:22:24,316 Speaker 1: like some other groups of people, being kind of itinerant 414 00:22:24,356 --> 00:22:29,036 Speaker 1: cosmopolitan merchants who have lived in many many countries throughout 415 00:22:29,076 --> 00:22:32,516 Speaker 1: world history but have not always seen themselves as being 416 00:22:32,636 --> 00:22:35,916 Speaker 1: of that particular country, but more importantly, have not been 417 00:22:35,916 --> 00:22:39,556 Speaker 1: seen by the residents of those countries as being native 418 00:22:39,596 --> 00:22:42,276 Speaker 1: to that country. And this has had to do with 419 00:22:42,436 --> 00:22:45,796 Speaker 1: Jews having our own language, having Lingua Francas that native 420 00:22:45,796 --> 00:22:48,716 Speaker 1: peoples don't understand. And of course it's also been amplified 421 00:22:48,756 --> 00:22:51,076 Speaker 1: by the anti Semitism of both the Christian tradition and 422 00:22:51,116 --> 00:22:53,436 Speaker 1: the Muslim tradition right, both of which have anti Semitic 423 00:22:53,516 --> 00:22:57,156 Speaker 1: strains in them that many, many, many of the current 424 00:22:57,156 --> 00:23:01,796 Speaker 1: adherents really have tried to downplay, but that still are there. 425 00:23:02,156 --> 00:23:06,276 Speaker 1: So there are reasons why why anti Semitism is always 426 00:23:06,396 --> 00:23:10,116 Speaker 1: with us historically and seems to be in more societies 427 00:23:10,116 --> 00:23:12,116 Speaker 1: than you would think, including those that have had very 428 00:23:12,196 --> 00:23:14,876 Speaker 1: very few The theory of Jews as the cosmopolitan other 429 00:23:15,276 --> 00:23:18,316 Speaker 1: doesn't fit the United States very well because Jews in 430 00:23:18,316 --> 00:23:20,316 Speaker 1: the United States, it does, from a very early period 431 00:23:20,436 --> 00:23:23,476 Speaker 1: learn to speak English and integrated into a wide range 432 00:23:23,556 --> 00:23:26,476 Speaker 1: of professions. I mean the other, the sort of deep, 433 00:23:26,596 --> 00:23:29,476 Speaker 1: the deep origins theory of anti Semitism that focuses on 434 00:23:29,916 --> 00:23:33,236 Speaker 1: religious origins. I think it's very plausible at a kind 435 00:23:33,236 --> 00:23:36,156 Speaker 1: of grand scale explanation, but it doesn't work as well 436 00:23:36,516 --> 00:23:40,236 Speaker 1: at the micro level to explain why now as opposed 437 00:23:40,276 --> 00:23:43,036 Speaker 1: to another time, And you mentioned Paula Hyman's theory, which 438 00:23:43,076 --> 00:23:46,156 Speaker 1: suggested at least that it's actually random walk. You know, 439 00:23:46,436 --> 00:23:49,596 Speaker 1: it goes up and it goes down. And if we 440 00:23:49,716 --> 00:23:51,796 Speaker 1: think that the going up now has something to do 441 00:23:51,836 --> 00:23:54,596 Speaker 1: with current circumstances. And one hears a lot of Jews 442 00:23:54,636 --> 00:23:56,676 Speaker 1: on the left saying it's because of Trump, and one 443 00:23:56,716 --> 00:23:58,076 Speaker 1: hears a lot of Jews on the right saying to 444 00:23:58,116 --> 00:24:00,796 Speaker 1: the contrary, the Trump is the most pro Jewish president 445 00:24:00,836 --> 00:24:03,516 Speaker 1: the United States has ever had, and they are often 446 00:24:03,556 --> 00:24:06,276 Speaker 1: conflating their conception of what counts as pro Israel with 447 00:24:06,276 --> 00:24:08,276 Speaker 1: what they think of as pro Jewish. But nevertheless, that 448 00:24:08,396 --> 00:24:11,716 Speaker 1: is a view that one here frequently. So do you 449 00:24:11,756 --> 00:24:13,636 Speaker 1: have a view on this particular debate that I think 450 00:24:13,676 --> 00:24:16,356 Speaker 1: is roiling in the American Jewish community today? And let 451 00:24:16,396 --> 00:24:19,076 Speaker 1: me add, by the way, that you are right that 452 00:24:19,076 --> 00:24:22,556 Speaker 1: that deep origins theory doesn't always work particularly well, or 453 00:24:22,556 --> 00:24:25,116 Speaker 1: the deep origins economic theory doesn't always work particularly well 454 00:24:25,156 --> 00:24:27,116 Speaker 1: in the United States, and that there are other micro 455 00:24:27,196 --> 00:24:29,676 Speaker 1: theories that account for a lot more of it so 456 00:24:30,076 --> 00:24:31,476 Speaker 1: or that may account for a lot more of it. So, 457 00:24:31,516 --> 00:24:35,836 Speaker 1: for example, Jews, historic economic success makes us targets when 458 00:24:36,036 --> 00:24:39,116 Speaker 1: the economy seems uncertain or in times of turmoil and stress. 459 00:24:39,156 --> 00:24:41,476 Speaker 1: So there are a lot of pieces at play there. 460 00:24:42,276 --> 00:24:45,156 Speaker 1: To answer a question about the contemporary scene, I think 461 00:24:45,196 --> 00:24:48,916 Speaker 1: it's useful to point out that the nineteen nineties, when 462 00:24:48,956 --> 00:24:51,956 Speaker 1: we were really in a beautiful era of just low 463 00:24:52,156 --> 00:24:56,316 Speaker 1: levels of jew hatred of Judeopathy, as some say, was 464 00:24:56,396 --> 00:24:59,756 Speaker 1: coming at the end of a period which was really 465 00:24:59,796 --> 00:25:04,996 Speaker 1: a golden era for American ethnicities and micro communities and subcultures. Right. 466 00:25:05,036 --> 00:25:07,876 Speaker 1: So after World War Two, most of the barriers fell 467 00:25:07,996 --> 00:25:11,636 Speaker 1: to Italians and Holes and German Lutherans and Jews and 468 00:25:11,676 --> 00:25:14,556 Speaker 1: all sorts of people, white people who presented as white, 469 00:25:14,556 --> 00:25:16,516 Speaker 1: I should add, who wanted to move out of cities 470 00:25:16,516 --> 00:25:19,556 Speaker 1: into suburbs, who wanted to begin attending elite universities, who 471 00:25:19,596 --> 00:25:22,356 Speaker 1: wanted to run for office. It's not that prejudice disappeared, 472 00:25:22,716 --> 00:25:25,636 Speaker 1: but things got immeasurably better than they had been, say 473 00:25:25,716 --> 00:25:28,716 Speaker 1: before World War Two, or especially in the World War One, 474 00:25:28,796 --> 00:25:31,396 Speaker 1: errand before when there was a lot more nativism, right, 475 00:25:31,636 --> 00:25:33,476 Speaker 1: and these were groups that were now speaking English and 476 00:25:33,516 --> 00:25:36,196 Speaker 1: so forth. So we were coming off a half century 477 00:25:36,516 --> 00:25:39,316 Speaker 1: of really really good times for Jews and many other 478 00:25:39,356 --> 00:25:42,956 Speaker 1: white looking ethnic groups. Right. But what's happening now is 479 00:25:43,196 --> 00:25:46,396 Speaker 1: that a lot of those Jews who were the beneficiaries 480 00:25:46,436 --> 00:25:49,316 Speaker 1: of that don't necessarily identify as Jewish anymore for various 481 00:25:49,316 --> 00:25:51,316 Speaker 1: reasons having to do with lower levels of practice, or 482 00:25:51,316 --> 00:25:53,316 Speaker 1: their children don't identify as Jewish, and so forth and 483 00:25:53,356 --> 00:25:57,036 Speaker 1: so on, And an increasing number of the people who 484 00:25:57,076 --> 00:26:01,436 Speaker 1: publicly present as Jewish are what they call ultra Orthodox, 485 00:26:01,516 --> 00:26:03,996 Speaker 1: although it's a term many people in those communities don't 486 00:26:04,036 --> 00:26:07,516 Speaker 1: like because they think the ultra prefix seems demeaning. People 487 00:26:07,636 --> 00:26:11,116 Speaker 1: in that trust would prefer the term Haredi, their preferred chirey, 488 00:26:11,236 --> 00:26:14,876 Speaker 1: right exactly. So Haredi Jews, well, that's a community that's 489 00:26:14,956 --> 00:26:17,556 Speaker 1: growing enormously, right. You can go to a Haredi town 490 00:26:17,556 --> 00:26:19,876 Speaker 1: like Lakewood, New Jersey, and they're opening one or two 491 00:26:19,916 --> 00:26:22,556 Speaker 1: elementary schools every year, like they just keep batting people. 492 00:26:22,556 --> 00:26:24,396 Speaker 1: And these are towns that are going to be doubling 493 00:26:24,396 --> 00:26:27,556 Speaker 1: in size every several decades. The neighborhoods of Brooklyn that 494 00:26:27,596 --> 00:26:30,756 Speaker 1: we're containing Satmar and Lebovitch or Jews and are not 495 00:26:30,756 --> 00:26:32,596 Speaker 1: big enough for them anymore, which is one reason that 496 00:26:32,596 --> 00:26:35,916 Speaker 1: they have outpost in places like Jersey City. So I 497 00:26:35,996 --> 00:26:37,916 Speaker 1: think that one of the things going on is we 498 00:26:37,956 --> 00:26:40,876 Speaker 1: are at a stress point where the what you might 499 00:26:40,876 --> 00:26:44,956 Speaker 1: call highly Americanized Jews are a rapidly shrinking portion of 500 00:26:45,916 --> 00:26:47,756 Speaker 1: not only of the Jewish community, but what if people 501 00:26:47,796 --> 00:26:51,196 Speaker 1: perceived to be the Jewish community and people who are 502 00:26:51,316 --> 00:26:54,796 Speaker 1: associated with Orthodoxy, which has more which has different folk ways, 503 00:26:55,276 --> 00:26:57,716 Speaker 1: which is often more at odds for various cultural reasons 504 00:26:57,716 --> 00:27:00,116 Speaker 1: with other minority groups, and which includes, by the way, 505 00:27:00,156 --> 00:27:03,476 Speaker 1: the President's daughter and son in law, they would say, 506 00:27:04,196 --> 00:27:07,876 Speaker 1: is a growing proportion of American Jewelry. And that is 507 00:27:07,916 --> 00:27:10,716 Speaker 1: going to cause some stress. It's also conscinating that it's 508 00:27:10,876 --> 00:27:13,596 Speaker 1: costing theory, Mark, and I have never heard anybody make 509 00:27:13,676 --> 00:27:15,596 Speaker 1: this argument before. I mean, I think this may be 510 00:27:15,796 --> 00:27:18,156 Speaker 1: completely original to you, and if I understand it correctly, 511 00:27:18,716 --> 00:27:23,476 Speaker 1: it's that the visibility of Haredi Jews, coupled with the 512 00:27:23,596 --> 00:27:26,996 Speaker 1: increasing invisibility in some sense of Jews who are not 513 00:27:27,116 --> 00:27:31,156 Speaker 1: self identifying by their dress and necessarily by the neighborhood 514 00:27:31,276 --> 00:27:33,876 Speaker 1: in which they live as Jews, creates a kind of 515 00:27:33,916 --> 00:27:36,196 Speaker 1: frictional or flash point. Yeah. But the other thing I 516 00:27:36,276 --> 00:27:38,756 Speaker 1: want to add is that it's not just that the 517 00:27:38,956 --> 00:27:41,196 Speaker 1: Heredi Jews are becoming a more visible portion of it. 518 00:27:41,196 --> 00:27:43,876 Speaker 1: It's also that on the left, as you are, I 519 00:27:43,876 --> 00:27:45,916 Speaker 1: don't like those sort of binaries, but say the left 520 00:27:45,996 --> 00:27:48,596 Speaker 1: end of American Jewelry, you have people who have become 521 00:27:48,636 --> 00:27:52,396 Speaker 1: so as assimilated and so and feel so disconnected from 522 00:27:52,396 --> 00:27:54,116 Speaker 1: the Heredi Jews who are bearing the brunt of a 523 00:27:54,156 --> 00:27:56,596 Speaker 1: lot of these anti Semitic attacks that they aren't necessarily 524 00:27:56,596 --> 00:27:58,396 Speaker 1: standing up for them. So, in other words, the gulf 525 00:27:58,516 --> 00:28:01,236 Speaker 1: between an Upper west Side liberal Jew or an Upper 526 00:28:01,276 --> 00:28:04,796 Speaker 1: east Side moneyed Jew and a black hatted Haredi Jew 527 00:28:04,956 --> 00:28:09,436 Speaker 1: and his wife and children in Brooklyn is extremely great now, 528 00:28:09,436 --> 00:28:11,876 Speaker 1: not just in terms of money and culture, but I 529 00:28:11,916 --> 00:28:15,716 Speaker 1: also think in terms of fellow feeling and compassion. Just 530 00:28:15,796 --> 00:28:18,596 Speaker 1: the gulf seems to be very, very big. I also 531 00:28:18,596 --> 00:28:20,876 Speaker 1: want to point out one more thing, which is, you know, 532 00:28:20,996 --> 00:28:23,836 Speaker 1: people talk about, well, you know, Joe Lieberman was almost 533 00:28:23,916 --> 00:28:26,436 Speaker 1: vice president and it's what a great time to be 534 00:28:26,956 --> 00:28:30,156 Speaker 1: modern Orthodox. There is almost no photograph on Google images 535 00:28:30,196 --> 00:28:32,796 Speaker 1: of Joe Lieberman wearing a Yamica. You can find more 536 00:28:32,796 --> 00:28:35,636 Speaker 1: photographs of Barack Obama wearing a Yamica than Joe Lieberman. 537 00:28:36,236 --> 00:28:38,956 Speaker 1: And it is not at all clear to me that 538 00:28:39,076 --> 00:28:41,036 Speaker 1: even in America, which I think has been very good 539 00:28:41,036 --> 00:28:42,756 Speaker 1: for the Jews, and there's no other country I want 540 00:28:42,796 --> 00:28:44,556 Speaker 1: to live in, it's not clear to me that a 541 00:28:44,596 --> 00:28:48,476 Speaker 1: really jewey presenting Jew could be a senator from an 542 00:28:48,476 --> 00:28:51,476 Speaker 1: overwhelmingly gentile state like Connecticut, like put on a Yamica. 543 00:28:51,516 --> 00:28:53,996 Speaker 1: And I don't know that Lieberman is anyone you ever 544 00:28:54,036 --> 00:28:56,636 Speaker 1: would have heard of, because I do think that that 545 00:28:56,676 --> 00:28:59,356 Speaker 1: sense of cultural difference and well, he doesn't look like 546 00:28:59,396 --> 00:29:01,076 Speaker 1: the rest of us would kick in pretty fast for 547 00:29:01,116 --> 00:29:03,876 Speaker 1: a lot of people. It's a fascinating question to Complexif 548 00:29:04,116 --> 00:29:07,156 Speaker 1: one would want to ask, hypothetically, let's imagine it were 549 00:29:07,196 --> 00:29:09,956 Speaker 1: a very evangelically oriented state and it was a modern 550 00:29:10,076 --> 00:29:14,116 Speaker 1: Orthodox Jew and close ties to the evangelical community, I 551 00:29:14,156 --> 00:29:16,196 Speaker 1: wonder I think it's a it's a very hard question, 552 00:29:16,316 --> 00:29:19,436 Speaker 1: but a fascinating one. Mark. I really want to thank you, 553 00:29:19,476 --> 00:29:21,636 Speaker 1: and I also just want to say personally that the 554 00:29:21,676 --> 00:29:23,756 Speaker 1: fact that you're writing a book that is focused on 555 00:29:23,796 --> 00:29:26,396 Speaker 1: recovery and on the capacity of the Jewish community to 556 00:29:26,476 --> 00:29:30,436 Speaker 1: be resilient, to me, says a lot about what I 557 00:29:30,476 --> 00:29:34,756 Speaker 1: think of as the correct response to antisemitism and to tragedy. 558 00:29:34,836 --> 00:29:38,036 Speaker 1: Not to spend all of our time obsessing over that question, 559 00:29:38,036 --> 00:29:39,996 Speaker 1: although we've just talked about it a lot, which is great, 560 00:29:40,476 --> 00:29:44,476 Speaker 1: But to be aware also that Jews living and existing 561 00:29:44,996 --> 00:29:50,076 Speaker 1: and forming life and shaping life is what has always 562 00:29:50,156 --> 00:29:53,356 Speaker 1: kept the Jewish community alive and will keep the Jewish 563 00:29:53,356 --> 00:29:58,156 Speaker 1: community alive no matter if antisemitism continues to exist or 564 00:29:58,196 --> 00:30:00,796 Speaker 1: to rise and fall or not. So thank you for 565 00:30:01,236 --> 00:30:03,356 Speaker 1: that focus. And I'm dying to read the book when 566 00:30:03,356 --> 00:30:05,196 Speaker 1: it comes out. And thanks for taking us a little 567 00:30:05,196 --> 00:30:07,916 Speaker 1: bit behind the scenes into your process. It's been such 568 00:30:07,916 --> 00:30:19,436 Speaker 1: a pleasure. Thanks Noah. Deep background is brought to you 569 00:30:19,476 --> 00:30:23,516 Speaker 1: by Pushkin Industries. Our producer is Mola Board, our engineer 570 00:30:23,676 --> 00:30:26,876 Speaker 1: is Ben Talliday, and our showrunner is Sophie Crane mckibbon. 571 00:30:27,516 --> 00:30:31,556 Speaker 1: Editorial support from noahm Osband. Theme music by Luis Gara 572 00:30:32,036 --> 00:30:35,756 Speaker 1: at Pushkin. Thanks to Mia Lobell, Julia Barton, Lydia Jeancott, 573 00:30:35,996 --> 00:30:41,196 Speaker 1: Heather Faine, Carlie Migliori, Maggie Taylor, Eric Sandler, and Jacob Weisberg. 574 00:30:41,596 --> 00:30:43,796 Speaker 1: You can find me on Twitter at Noah R. Feldman. 575 00:30:44,156 --> 00:30:46,556 Speaker 1: I also write a column for Bloomberg Opinion, which you 576 00:30:46,596 --> 00:30:50,196 Speaker 1: can find at Bloomberg dot com. Slash felt to discover 577 00:30:50,276 --> 00:30:54,836 Speaker 1: Bloomberg's originals. Later podcasts go to bloomberg dot com slash podcasts, 578 00:30:55,196 --> 00:30:57,676 Speaker 1: and if you like what you've heard today, please write 579 00:30:57,676 --> 00:31:10,356 Speaker 1: a review or tell a friend. This is deep background