Speaker 1: If you're good, place your left hand on the Bible
Speaker 1: and raise your right hand, and please repeat after me
Speaker 1: and I do solemnly swear. The jury then titled action
Speaker 1: find the defendant guilty of the time. It makes no sense,
Speaker 1: it doesn't fit. If it doesn't fit, you must aquit.
Speaker 1: We all took the same of of office. We're all
Speaker 1: bound by that common commitment to support and defend the Constitution,
Speaker 1: to bear true faith in allegiance to the Saint, that
Speaker 1: you faithfully discharge the duties of our office. Do you
Speaker 1: solemnly swear or affirm that the testimony you're about to
Speaker 1: give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing
Speaker 1: but the truth. From Tenderfoot TV and I Heart Radio,
Speaker 1: this is Sworn. I'm your host, Philip Holloway. I was
Speaker 1: there with his form parently goal Caitlin, and our good
Speaker 1: friend Pat and we sat there from start to finish.
Speaker 1: So I kind of always say that I felt I
Speaker 1: felt like I was in church. I don't know how
Speaker 1: else to describe that, Like I felt like I was
Speaker 1: at church, and all of a sudden I was overcome
Speaker 1: by a power bigger than me. Again, we had been
Speaker 1: dealing with us for a number of years, and you know,
Speaker 1: what happens in the office impacts us in her family
Speaker 1: life as well, and so we were there, her family
Speaker 1: was there. It was very emotionally heavy and draining and
Speaker 1: exhausting and long for everybody that took the stand that day.
Speaker 1: There were people on both sides of the aisle that
Speaker 1: had very particular feelings and were very vested in the
Speaker 1: outcome of this case. I just believed that she hadn't
Speaker 1: done this. I believe that there was evidence of prove
Speaker 1: that she hadn't done this. And when the judge came
Speaker 1: on the bench, it was like I was overcome. I
Speaker 1: don't know. I mean, we started crying and we just
Speaker 1: I could not get myself together like I felt. It
Speaker 1: was just it was the highest emotion that and then
Speaker 1: the lowest. You know, you're kind of sponged up and down.
Speaker 1: It was. It was unbelievable. Welcome back to part three
Speaker 1: of our case study series. This is the final episode
Speaker 1: following the case of a woman accused of the murder
Speaker 1: of her husband. In parts one and two, we told
Speaker 1: you what happened to the night her husband died, how
Speaker 1: your regular sworn host Phil designed her defense, and the
Speaker 1: impossible risks and decisions that led her to enter a
Speaker 1: plea for a crime she didn't commit. Today, as Phil's
Speaker 1: wife Natalie mentioned at the beginning of this episode, we'll
Speaker 1: look at the shocking sentencing hearing in this case. After
Speaker 1: hearing from all of the expert testimony, the judge sent
Speaker 1: down a ruling that no one, not even Phil, saw coming.
Speaker 1: The judge didn't waste a lot of time after we
Speaker 1: put up hours and hours of testimony and argument. He
Speaker 1: came back pretty quickly and he may have ruled from
Speaker 1: the bench. I think he said, well, something like I
Speaker 1: think she's innocent, so I'm just gonna give her straight probation.
Speaker 1: I just remember, Holy did I hear him right? Did
Speaker 1: he just say he's gonna give her straight probation because
Speaker 1: he thinks she's innocent, And yeah, that's what he said.
Speaker 1: He decided he was gonna get up give the clerk
Speaker 1: of court some time to get the paperwork together for sentencing.
Speaker 1: And it was quite a moment. Her little girl came
Speaker 1: up to me and give me a hug and said,
Speaker 1: thank you for saving um. And if you think I'm
Speaker 1: emotional now, you should see me that day. It's incredible.
Speaker 1: That sweet girl. I'll never forget her. And I had
Speaker 1: a little girl with my own woman, you just remind
Speaker 1: me so much of my job. But the judge came
Speaker 1: back on the bench and the paperwork done, and and
Speaker 1: that was that, and we were we were just kind
Speaker 1: of all shocked and stunned, but very much happy. After that.
Speaker 1: She was able to start picking the pieces of her
Speaker 1: life back up and become a mom again, being a
Speaker 1: citizen and parents and employee and now I'm just a
Speaker 1: hard working lady. Had you guys expected her to go
Speaker 1: to jail that day, Yes, very much so. I don't
Speaker 1: think I told her then. I may have told her since,
Speaker 1: but I was fully expecting her to leave that courtroom
Speaker 1: in a waist chain, handcuffs and leg irons. I wasn't
Speaker 1: expecting her to walk out the front door. It's on
Speaker 1: a basic level. You know, you plead guilty to manslaughter,
Speaker 1: you're gonna have to go to prison. That's kind of
Speaker 1: the default setting. I tried to find out in Georgia
Speaker 1: if there'd ever been anybody that got probation straight probation
Speaker 1: from manslaughter. I couldn't find any, at least not in
Speaker 1: recent history. My research at the time the average sentence
Speaker 1: was like fourteen or fifteen years from manslaughter. Maybe it
Speaker 1: was eighteen, actually I think it was eighteen at the time.
Speaker 1: The average sentences, you know a lot of years in
Speaker 1: prison for manslaughter, voluntary manslaughter anyway, So straight probation was
Speaker 1: that's what you know. We asked for it. We asked
Speaker 1: her fifteen years. If I'd have thought that Judge was
Speaker 1: gonna believe she was innocent, that we were gonna do
Speaker 1: that good of a job, I would have maybe asked
Speaker 1: for less. But I wrote in my written sentencing memorandum
Speaker 1: my recommendation was fifteen years on probation. I kind of
Speaker 1: pulled that number out of thin air. I I didn't
Speaker 1: want to ask for two little time and be insulting.
Speaker 1: I didn't want to say, Judge, yes, she's pleading to
Speaker 1: voluntary manslaughter. Even though it's an Alfred Police she's pleading
Speaker 1: to voluntary manslaughter. We wants you to give her a
Speaker 1: slap on the risk and give her two years on probation.
Speaker 1: I didn't want that. I wanted to give him something
Speaker 1: that he wasn't gonna laugh about. And he said, well,
Speaker 1: I think she's innocence, I'm gonna give her fifteen years
Speaker 1: on probation. I was like, holy crap, I should have
Speaker 1: asked for five or something like that. Hindsight is always
Speaker 1: And in the end, two or three years out, we
Speaker 1: we did go back and we we asked for early
Speaker 1: termination of probation and the motion is granted. So all's well,
Speaker 1: that ends well, I guess. Unfortunately, she's a convicted felon
Speaker 1: and she has all the baggage that goes along with that,
Speaker 1: but she's not on probation. And as I recall, the
Speaker 1: people at probation, the probation officers and the probation department,
Speaker 1: they couldn't believe it. They're like, no, she's that. She
Speaker 1: can't possibly be here for manslaughter. Nobody's ever here from manslaughter.
Speaker 1: This is probation. We're not the prison. So they they
Speaker 1: were like, there must be a mistake with your paperwork,
Speaker 1: and no, there was no mistake. Her initial probation officer
Speaker 1: I think he's retired now, but he and I talked
Speaker 1: about this case in the weeks for months afterwards and
Speaker 1: even the years afterwards, and they didn't even make her
Speaker 1: really report the probation because they knew she was innocent too.
Speaker 1: They made some discretionary calls that they're entitled to make.
Speaker 1: There they said, well, yeah, she's on probation, but we
Speaker 1: you know, she's paying her monthly supervision fees. We're not
Speaker 1: gonna be going and visiting me her at home. We're
Speaker 1: not gonna make her come in and report to us.
Speaker 1: They have. They essentially had her own non report in
Speaker 1: probation because I think they knew she was innocent too.
Speaker 1: I mean, everybody who looked at this case beyond scratching
Speaker 1: the surface, if they dug down just a little bit,
Speaker 1: they would see there would be no question that she's innocent.
Speaker 1: We just did what we had to do. We just
Speaker 1: stuck it out. This case dragged on for years, and
Speaker 1: it dragged me down. It dragged me down emotionally, it
Speaker 1: dragged me down mentally, physically. I was just tired, you know,
Speaker 1: and but you have to stick it out. We fortunately
Speaker 1: were able to find the right experts, We had some resources.
Speaker 1: I think her her father, God bless him. I think
Speaker 1: he drained his retirement savings. I think he had a
Speaker 1: sport airplane that he liked to fly his retire e
Speaker 1: from f A. He sold his his airplane that was
Speaker 1: his his love, that he was gonna spend his retirement
Speaker 1: years flying planes around and there's a pilot myself. I
Speaker 1: hated to see him have to sell something that he
Speaker 1: thought he was gonna enjoy in retirement. Quite frankly, she
Speaker 1: was the one. It was extraordinary. I don't know how
Speaker 1: she held up her family was extraordinary, and the sacrifices
Speaker 1: they made, it's it's extraordinary what they did. This is
Speaker 1: Phil's former paralegal, Caitlin. She sat with Natalie at the
Speaker 1: sentencing hearing and couldn't believe this case she had worked
Speaker 1: on for years was going to end with the client
Speaker 1: walking out the front doors. We were still really gambling
Speaker 1: with the sentence because it was a wide range. It
Speaker 1: was like no time to fifteen, if I believe correctly.
Speaker 1: I was worried that the judge might meet in the middle.
Speaker 1: I think that that was her best option. And I think,
Speaker 1: you know, after that many years, you're just kind of
Speaker 1: worn down and you want your life back and you
Speaker 1: want it to be over and you want to be
Speaker 1: able to travel to see your family. She was born
Speaker 1: down and I think I would feel the same way,
Speaker 1: and I would have gone through it, and I mean
Speaker 1: I still to this day I haven't worked for Phil
Speaker 1: and probably six or seven years. If he tells me something,
Speaker 1: I go that I believe him. He knows what he's
Speaker 1: talking about. So I think that if he told me
Speaker 1: to do it, I would do it. The sentencing hearing
Speaker 1: was unlike anything I've probably will every experience in my life.
Speaker 1: I remember after it was over telling Phil's wife that
Speaker 1: it was the happiest I've ever been in my life
Speaker 1: and it had absolutely nothing to do with me, and
Speaker 1: that blew my mind. The sentencing hearing was very emotional.
Speaker 1: Her children read victim impact statements, but they would be
Speaker 1: hard to hear from anyone, but much less ten year
Speaker 1: old children. I remember the judge said, do you wished
Speaker 1: that it could have been tried so that he could
Speaker 1: find her not guilty? The entire room was crying at points,
Speaker 1: and when the judge sentenced her to complete probation, I
Speaker 1: mean everyone cheered, everyone cried it. It was a very
Speaker 1: beautiful thing. When the sentencing hearing was over, I don't
Speaker 1: remember exactly what her kids were saying. I just know
Speaker 1: that they were supporting her. I just remember that they
Speaker 1: were all in support of their mom, just crying that
Speaker 1: they need their mom you know, they lost their dad
Speaker 1: and they need their mom. I remember she was just
Speaker 1: so nervous. She asked if I could sit with her
Speaker 1: at the table, But it's not a place for me.
Speaker 1: Here's Phil's client. When I spoke with her about entering
Speaker 1: the Alfred plea, even years later, she was calm and resigned. Honestly,
Speaker 1: I was expecting to hear about how emotional and difficult
Speaker 1: it was to plead to the crime of killing her husband,
Speaker 1: a crime she didn't commit. But sitting with me her
Speaker 1: children in Phil's office when we got to the subject
Speaker 1: of the plea, she wasn't emotional at all. She was
Speaker 1: straightforward and sort of stoic. I actually wrote a letter
Speaker 1: myself to the judge. We weren't able to use it
Speaker 1: because there was some wording about not really wanting to
Speaker 1: take a plea. I think that I was not able
Speaker 1: to use it, but I didn't want to write my
Speaker 1: own letter. The judge asked me if I was sure
Speaker 1: that I really wanted to do it, and I was like, yeah,
Speaker 1: you know, because I mean I felt like there was
Speaker 1: no other way to get home. And then they did
Speaker 1: the sentence saying that he gave me probation the whole
Speaker 1: thing was surprising. So the fact that I got to
Speaker 1: go home and be with my family. How weird is
Speaker 1: that that that would be surprising to me? And surprising
Speaker 1: isn't even the right word, Like if you don't live
Speaker 1: through it, you wouldn't even believe it. I mean I was.
Speaker 1: I was relieved, and I remember that I wanted the
Speaker 1: acal monitor off, but they had to my kids and
Speaker 1: my dad and everyone was at the hotel. I didn't
Speaker 1: have to have the alarm on the incal monitor anymore,
Speaker 1: but it was still physically on me. So we went
Speaker 1: to the hotel and I got to stay with the
Speaker 1: kids and that was nice, and we had dinner. They
Speaker 1: came early in the morning and they took off the
Speaker 1: acle monitor in the foyer drop off of the hotel,
Speaker 1: and uh, we went swimming. I don't harbor any illusions.
Speaker 1: There's a lot of guilty people that you know, we represent,
Speaker 1: but it's the innocent ones. Once we figure out that
Speaker 1: they really are innocent, those are the ones that are challenging.
Speaker 1: I've told people before and I'll say it now. It's
Speaker 1: a hell of a lot easier to represent somebody who's
Speaker 1: guilty than it is to represent someone who's innocent, because
Speaker 1: it's the innocent ones that they keep you awake at night,
Speaker 1: and that's definitely what happened in this case. For years,
Speaker 1: this was a traumatic case on everybody. I'm just thinking
Speaker 1: about it brings back a lot of thoughts and feelings
Speaker 1: that I haven't have felt in a while. You know,
Speaker 1: I live with this for years. And not only do
Speaker 1: I think she's a nice person, I think she wouldn't
Speaker 1: hurt a flee. I was witnessed the tragedy of epic
Speaker 1: proportions for this family, regardless of guilt or innocence. You know,
Speaker 1: a husband and a father was dead, and I'm having
Speaker 1: to sort through autopsy pictures and look at them like
Speaker 1: it's a time magazine, putting emotions to the side to
Speaker 1: try to be objective with it. And now I've got
Speaker 1: the luxury of, you know, looking at it as a human.
Speaker 1: But for years I had to look at it and
Speaker 1: push all these natural emotions to the side. There's just
Speaker 1: so much that I think a person can take when
Speaker 1: you talk about this tragedy, this gore, this human suffering
Speaker 1: and misery, and you just can't. You can't look at
Speaker 1: it objectively forever. It took its toll, and it still
Speaker 1: does in a way. During that time period, I mean,
Speaker 1: lots of things happened. You know, I had small children
Speaker 1: that I was trying to be a father too, i
Speaker 1: was trying to be a spouse. I'm trying to go
Speaker 1: home at the end of the day and not think
Speaker 1: about all this stuff. You know, it's not healthy, it's
Speaker 1: not good to take your work home with you. But
Speaker 1: when somebody's trusting you with their life, and their kids
Speaker 1: are trusting you with their mom's life, it gets to you.
Speaker 1: And it's the kind of stuff that keeps me awake
Speaker 1: at night. Let's say, my you know, I've got somebody who,
Speaker 1: let's just say they're really guilty and maybe the state
Speaker 1: can't prove it. And I know that I'm not trying
Speaker 1: to be obtuse about it. But I don't lose a
Speaker 1: lot of sleep over those types of cases. But it's
Speaker 1: the it's the innocent people that it wrapped up in
Speaker 1: this system that calls me to lose sleep at night.
Speaker 1: The pressure is really on, and frankly, the fact that
Speaker 1: there are innocent ones that need me is troubling enough,
Speaker 1: But when they actually are looking to me to save them,
Speaker 1: and their kids are looking at me to save them,
Speaker 1: and they've got nobody else. It's a lot of pressure
Speaker 1: and it's a pretty lonely place. This case has changed
Speaker 1: the way that I look at the system because it's
Speaker 1: given me some hope that you work hard, you might
Speaker 1: can get to something close to justice. I mean, I've
Speaker 1: won jury trials on murder cases where I thought the
Speaker 1: person was guilty. All these years later, I can look
Speaker 1: back on several things and I can say, well, I've
Speaker 1: lost cases that I should have won. One cases I
Speaker 1: should have lost. The bottom lines, I never know what
Speaker 1: the hell of jury is gonna do. So what this
Speaker 1: has done is is sort of given me some inspiration,
Speaker 1: if you will, to know that there may be other
Speaker 1: ways to get to the same result. We went around
Speaker 1: on a jury because maybe I didn't trust a jury
Speaker 1: in this case. We got a really good result from
Speaker 1: the judge in terms of sentencing, and then we later
Speaker 1: got that probation terminated. If we go back in a
Speaker 1: few more years and maybe apply for a pardon, who
Speaker 1: knows what we're gonna do. But the bottom line is
Speaker 1: that we got ninety five percent of what we needed
Speaker 1: in this case, which was a free client. Free mom,
Speaker 1: a free human being who's innocent. We kept her free.
Speaker 1: That's everything we need. She's not on long term probation.
Speaker 1: That's a bonus. So we got most of what we
Speaker 1: needed through maybe the side door, without having to risk
Speaker 1: the mandatory sentencing of a murder conviction. I went and
Speaker 1: I met with my probation officer like they have like
Speaker 1: a oh what do they call? It was like something
Speaker 1: funny like orientation. And then that's how I found out
Speaker 1: that they had actually changed my probation officer, but they
Speaker 1: didn't tell me. So the first guy was like annoyed
Speaker 1: with me because I kept calling and checking in like
Speaker 1: I was supposed to. And then he told me to
Speaker 1: stop calling him and then if he if he needed me,
Speaker 1: he'd call me. And then they filed the paperwork and
Speaker 1: within a certain amount of time after that, I think
Speaker 1: it was actually April Fools because I remember thinking, please
Speaker 1: don't let this be a joke, and um that I
Speaker 1: was officially on non reporting and then all I had
Speaker 1: to do is pay the I think it was like
Speaker 1: thirty five dollars a month probation fee. Then we had
Speaker 1: we went back towards back to court to have the
Speaker 1: early termination of probation, and it was granted to me.
Speaker 1: I mean, don't think that, like it's so weird to
Speaker 1: say that. I like, don't think I don't know how
Speaker 1: lucky I am, because I do know in light of
Speaker 1: the situation that I'm rigin it. I've read so many
Speaker 1: stories of people so much less fortunate in the outcome
Speaker 1: than my story as far as the legal parts of
Speaker 1: it go. I think I've been incredibly lucky in that department.
Speaker 1: But then at the same time, I never should have
Speaker 1: been in the system in the first place. So then
Speaker 1: there's that's like mixed with it's like gratefulness tinged with
Speaker 1: bitterness and resentment. It shouldn't have been here in the
Speaker 1: first place, but given the fact that it could have
Speaker 1: gone worse, I guess I'm grateful. I think it's a
Speaker 1: really scary system. I think that there are there are
Speaker 1: people in tremendous positions of power making judgments about things
Speaker 1: that I don't know that are always easy easy to
Speaker 1: pass judgment on. In my own house, if I have
Speaker 1: one donut left and I come into my house and
Speaker 1: I'm like, where's my last donut? I have a house
Speaker 1: full of kids that are like wasn't me. I didn't
Speaker 1: eat your donut. I may never find out who ate
Speaker 1: my donut, but I can't just go up and point
Speaker 1: to that one and be like, you ate my donut.
Speaker 1: I know you ate my doughnut. And he might or
Speaker 1: might not have been the one that ate my donut.
Speaker 1: I can't make a decision of who to be mad
Speaker 1: at if I just don't know. You can't do that
Speaker 1: in your own home, so I don't feel like you
Speaker 1: should be able to do that with society. They've got
Speaker 1: to take a step back and like take information and
Speaker 1: look at it and before because they can't undo what
Speaker 1: has happened here, and they can't undo the people that
Speaker 1: you see in the Georgia Innocence Project and stuff like
Speaker 1: that that has spent fifteen years on death row. You
Speaker 1: cannot undo that. And you can't undo on the other
Speaker 1: side of the spectrum, you know, somebody who has suffered
Speaker 1: a loss. I mean, I actually have people that I'm
Speaker 1: close to that are are victims of violent crimes. One
Speaker 1: person in particular, it has never been solved. There's never
Speaker 1: been any kind of closure in that department for that person.
Speaker 1: You know, you think about that like the world is
Speaker 1: it's it's it's just not that black and white. And
Speaker 1: I mean, this could happen to anybody. It really could.
Speaker 1: It's all subject to somebody's, you know, perception of how
Speaker 1: they think things happen. I don't trust my perception all
Speaker 1: the time of knowing what happened. I mean, that's that's
Speaker 1: the biggest thing for me. Stop these things before they happen,
Speaker 1: before families get torn apart. And I go to interviews,
Speaker 1: I go to job interviews, and I have to say,
Speaker 1: you know, I feel like I need to be forthcoming.
Speaker 1: I do have a felony on my record, and people
Speaker 1: are just like, oh really, and then they want to
Speaker 1: hear the story, but they're going to have their own judgments.
Speaker 1: And that's the other thing is I don't want my
Speaker 1: family's tragedy to be fodder for other people's entertainment, you know.
Speaker 1: I mean, that's one of the reasons, one of the
Speaker 1: many reasons I don't really want to use my name
Speaker 1: is because I don't want to exploit, like it was
Speaker 1: very painful for us, incredibly painful for me. On top
Speaker 1: of the pain horrifying. Do you know what it's like
Speaker 1: to see a person sitting at pool of blood. Then
Speaker 1: take that person made the love of your life and
Speaker 1: the father of your children, Like you don't know that.
Speaker 1: I hope to god no one ever knows that that horror.
Speaker 1: I think that's why your brain can't wrap your wrap
Speaker 1: around it is because your brain can't, like there's in
Speaker 1: no way your brain can handle that. But when I
Speaker 1: do got interviews for to find better jobs, which I
Speaker 1: I haven't been able to to do, I always have
Speaker 1: to work that that tier that you know of of
Speaker 1: jobs that doesn't require background checks, And that's that's a
Speaker 1: tough way to make a living. You know, there are
Speaker 1: certain things that are of sins that are off the
Speaker 1: table for you. I wouldn't even want to go back
Speaker 1: to school because what if I went back to school
Speaker 1: and I got a degree in something and they still
Speaker 1: wouldn't hire me. That I'm just in debt. So you
Speaker 1: just kind of keep plugging, plugging away and just trying
Speaker 1: to get these these kids on their feet. I mean,
Speaker 1: I I don't make enough money now, and there was
Speaker 1: so much money spent on the legal expenses. I can't
Speaker 1: send any of my kids to college. Thankfully, they wanted
Speaker 1: to come home to me because you know, they could
Speaker 1: have stayed in kipe Con and you know probably how
Speaker 1: to better financial upbringing that I've been able to offer them.
Speaker 1: It's so glad that's Thurble. Did you think about staying
Speaker 1: in Massachusetts? I mean, of course I loved it, but
Speaker 1: that was the goal. You know, we never really got
Speaker 1: to deal with the loss because we were in survival mode.
Speaker 1: I am frozen in time. I go back and revisit
Speaker 1: things all the time. I was talking about their dad
Speaker 1: in the car and the way here, and I can
Speaker 1: sit here and I can talk into the microphone and
Speaker 1: I can talk to my family, I can talk to
Speaker 1: the wind, and it doesn't change it. I'm absolutely stuck.
Speaker 1: Would you say that I'm stuck somehow? It's in your home.
Speaker 1: I mean you see him in your kids. I do
Speaker 1: see him in my kids, And I mean you loved him.
Speaker 1: You think about him in the music, everything you know.
Speaker 1: In this place, everything is eerily the same. Like We'll
Speaker 1: be in the car and I'll be like, oh, your
Speaker 1: dad like this song? Orn Like I feel like I
Speaker 1: sometimes I want to just stick a sock in my
Speaker 1: mouth because I feel like I bring it up too much.
Speaker 1: Not not legal stuff, but like I still talk about
Speaker 1: their father. I feel like every conversation starts off one way,
Speaker 1: but it always comes back around to somehow, back to
Speaker 1: that night or back to their father. He's still alive
Speaker 1: in our house. I don't know if that's healthy, but
Speaker 1: I keep him. I keep him alive and human being,
Speaker 1: getting loved him. You know. I don't think it's negative
Speaker 1: to think about him, And I mean, you can't help it.
Speaker 1: You can't though, you know, because if you're thinking about it,
Speaker 1: you can either say it or conceal it. So yes,
Speaker 1: it's true. On my Christmas tree, I have Christmas ornaments
Speaker 1: that belong to my husband when he was a little boy.
Speaker 1: It'll be there someday. Will take it with them, then
Speaker 1: I keep I keep them. We just we went through
Speaker 1: a lot together, not just you know how it all ended.
Speaker 1: That's the funny thing about about marriage. It's not just
Speaker 1: the good times, but when you are married, you go
Speaker 1: through life. Take care. At the end of a lot
Speaker 1: of our episodes, we have a segment that we here
Speaker 1: at the production team called Phil's Final Thoughts. But for
Speaker 1: years Phil's client was silenced, her voice taken away and
Speaker 1: run over by all these problems and assumptions and hoops
Speaker 1: in the legal system, so we wanted to give her
Speaker 1: the final thoughts. Today. It's not going to make up
Speaker 1: for the years of confusion and silence, but I know
Speaker 1: from talking with her that she learned a lot about
Speaker 1: the realities of the a system, and hopefully sharing this
Speaker 1: story helps shed some light on how we as a
Speaker 1: society think about justice and how important it is to
Speaker 1: be able to defend yourself. My friend, who's actually the
Speaker 1: crime victim, felt like it would be cathartic for me
Speaker 1: to talk about it because I don't like to talk
Speaker 1: about it, and to have that little piece of my
Speaker 1: voice heard that I was never really allowed to use,
Speaker 1: and it's and it's like I'm trying to find balance
Speaker 1: in and having my voice heard but also protecting my family.
Speaker 1: So I do want the anonymity, but I also want
Speaker 1: my voice heard, which is really selfish in me. But
Speaker 1: I want both of those things. I don't want to
Speaker 1: be angry. It's a lot easier to be angry than
Speaker 1: it is to be vulnerable. I want to heal. I
Speaker 1: want to heal for them, and I want to heal
Speaker 1: from me. I don't want to be locked in the past.
Speaker 1: I want to free myself from this like bubble of
Speaker 1: sadness that I live in for most of my life.
Speaker 1: And I hope that there's someone out there that if
Speaker 1: they're going through this and they feel completely alone and
Speaker 1: that nobody understands and they're feeling helpless and they don't
Speaker 1: have a voice, and they're looking for somebody that that
Speaker 1: they can relate to, I would like to be that
Speaker 1: person for them, because I didn't have that for me.
Speaker 1: I mean, I don't know how you protect yourself from it.
Speaker 1: You know, I would have There's nothing I would have
Speaker 1: done differently. I still would have tried to take a
Speaker 1: gun away from my husband. I still would have called one,
Speaker 1: and I still would have done all those things that
Speaker 1: night like would not have changed. Hopefully, somebody somewhere is
Speaker 1: looking at this in depth enough that they're going to
Speaker 1: make some changes. And I do think that it needs
Speaker 1: I do think there's problems with the judicial system, but
Speaker 1: I think it has to start with how the police
Speaker 1: interpret situations. I think it has to start there, because
Speaker 1: that's once that ball gets rolling, I don't know that
Speaker 1: they can stop it. It's you know, the momentum just
Speaker 1: keeps growing and growing and growing, and I think everybody
Speaker 1: gets fired up and everyone wants to win. And I
Speaker 1: don't think that they think about us as people. I
Speaker 1: think we're like pawns in a game. Because I actually
Speaker 1: had a friend when this was all happening, and I'm
Speaker 1: sitting there in my ankle monitor and we were watching
Speaker 1: the news and they had arrested this guy on the
Speaker 1: news and my friend said, oh, well they got the
Speaker 1: guy and I said, well, we don't know that yet.
Speaker 1: We have to see how this plays out. And she said, well,
Speaker 1: he obviously did something or they wouldn't have arrested him.
Speaker 1: So I know that a lot of people watch the
Speaker 1: news and they hear these stories and they just are like, well,
Speaker 1: something had to have happened or none of this would
Speaker 1: have happened. And I'm telling you that, yes, something happened,
Speaker 1: but not what you think happened. If you know, the
Speaker 1: police wouldn't arrest you if something hadn't happened, and it's
Speaker 1: it's not necessarily true. Like when I watch the news,
Speaker 1: like I'm a human being, and sometimes I watch it
Speaker 1: and I make decisions where I'm like, oh, that person
Speaker 1: did this or that, and then I have to go,
Speaker 1: wait a minute, I don't really know that yet. You know,
Speaker 1: and you've got to let things play out. You can't
Speaker 1: just make these decisions of if this happened, then that
Speaker 1: must have happened. But you just don't know. But I
Speaker 1: do know that a lot of people make that assumption.
Speaker 1: And I do know that when people hear about my story,
Speaker 1: there are going to be people that are going to
Speaker 1: make the assumption, well, you know, none of this would
Speaker 1: have happened had X y Z happened. And I know that,
Speaker 1: and it's and it's the reality that I live in.
Speaker 1: But the only people that really matters to me that
Speaker 1: believe in me are are my family. Prior to this happening.
Speaker 1: If I were to sit there on a jury which
Speaker 1: I never had jury duty, and I were to see
Speaker 1: a defendant getting paraded in and shock goals and jail
Speaker 1: uniform and I was basically told that they had committed
Speaker 1: a crime, I don't know that I would be as
Speaker 1: objective as I am today, that I would be able
Speaker 1: to sit back and say, we'll give you the give
Speaker 1: me the facts first, that I would be able to
Speaker 1: to to not just assume. It's so easy to sit
Speaker 1: down in your comfortable chair in your living room and
Speaker 1: watch the news and think that you are untouchable and
Speaker 1: like these things happen because other people bring these things
Speaker 1: upon themselves, you know, and it's so easy to do
Speaker 1: that and then get called to jury and then like
Speaker 1: have somebody paraded in front of you and think, well,
Speaker 1: you know that would never happen to me. Something you
Speaker 1: know else might have must have happened. It's just not
Speaker 1: like that. And if you take the time to read
Speaker 1: any of these stories, I searched and searched and read countless, countless,
Speaker 1: countless stories of all these different people who were falsely accused,
Speaker 1: I mean like almost to the point of like fraudulent testimony,
Speaker 1: like not because they felt like it was justice, but
Speaker 1: just to get these convictions I'm guessing, to get the
Speaker 1: public off their back. And then it turns out twenty
Speaker 1: years later that DNA exonerates these people. You know, we
Speaker 1: should be afraid as citizens because it's a tremendous amount
Speaker 1: of power to give to these people. It sounds really
Speaker 1: good when you're sitting in your chair, but if those
Speaker 1: tables ever get turned on you, you're screwed. Thanks for
Speaker 1: joining us on this case study. Again, just want to
Speaker 1: take a minute to say thank you to Phil's client
Speaker 1: and her family for sharing this story with us. As
Speaker 1: Caitlin said, they aren't people I'm likely to forget. If
Speaker 1: you have any questions or comments on anything you've heard
Speaker 1: so far this season, give us a call at four
Speaker 1: oh four zero zero four four one, Thanks for listening.
Speaker 1: Sworn is a production of Tenderfoot TV and I Heart Radio.
Speaker 1: Our lead producer is Christina Dana. Executive producers are Payne
Speaker 1: Lindsay and Donald Albright for Tenderfoot TV, Matt Frederick and
Speaker 1: Alex Williams for I Heart Radio, and myself Philip Holloway.
Speaker 1: Additional production by Trevor Young, Mason Lindsay, Mike Rooney, Jamie Albright,
Speaker 1: and Hallie Beadall. Original music and sound designed by Makeup
Speaker 1: and Vanity Set. Our theme song is Blood in the
Speaker 1: Water by Layup. Show art and design is by Trevor Eisler,
Speaker 1: editing by Christina Dana, Mixing and mastering by Mike Rooney
Speaker 1: and Cooper Skinner. Special thanks to the team at I
Speaker 1: Heart Radio from u t a or In rosenbaumd and
Speaker 1: Grace Royer, Ryan Nord and Matthew Papa from the Nord Group,
Speaker 1: back Media and Marketing, and Station sixteen I'd also like
Speaker 1: to extend a very personal and special thanks to all
Speaker 1: of our contributors and guests who have helped to make
Speaker 1: all of these episodes possible. You can find Sworn on Facebook, Twitter,
Speaker 1: and Instagram at Sworn podcast and follow me your host,
Speaker 1: Philip Holloway on Twitter at phil Holloway e s Q.
Speaker 1: Our website is sworn podcast dot com, and you can
Speaker 1: check out other Tenderfoot TV podcasts at www dot tenderfoot
Speaker 1: dot tv. If you have questions or comments, you can
Speaker 1: email us at Sworn at tenderfoot dot tv or leave
Speaker 1: us a voicemail at four zero four for one zero
Speaker 1: zero four four one. As always, thanks for listening