WEBVTT - Case Study Pt 3; The Sentencing Hearing 0:00:03.240 --> 0:00:05.440 If you're good, place your left hand on the Bible 0:00:05.559 --> 0:00:08.960 and raise your right hand, and please repeat after me 0:00:09.200 --> 0:00:12.920 and I do solemnly swear. The jury then titled action 0:00:13.080 --> 0:00:16.160 find the defendant guilty of the time. It makes no sense, 0:00:16.680 --> 0:00:20.200 it doesn't fit. If it doesn't fit, you must aquit. 0:00:20.560 --> 0:00:22.840 We all took the same of of office. We're all 0:00:22.880 --> 0:00:26.480 bound by that common commitment to support and defend the Constitution, 0:00:26.760 --> 0:00:29.360 to bear true faith in allegiance to the Saint, that 0:00:29.480 --> 0:00:32.199 you faithfully discharge the duties of our office. Do you 0:00:32.240 --> 0:00:35.560 solemnly swear or affirm that the testimony you're about to 0:00:35.600 --> 0:00:38.000 give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing 0:00:38.040 --> 0:00:41.640 but the truth. From Tenderfoot TV and I Heart Radio, 0:00:42.200 --> 0:00:56.280 this is Sworn. I'm your host, Philip Holloway. I was 0:00:56.320 --> 0:00:59.240 there with his form parently goal Caitlin, and our good 0:00:59.240 --> 0:01:04.240 friend Pat and we sat there from start to finish. 0:01:04.560 --> 0:01:07.440 So I kind of always say that I felt I 0:01:07.520 --> 0:01:09.120 felt like I was in church. I don't know how 0:01:09.160 --> 0:01:11.319 else to describe that, Like I felt like I was 0:01:11.360 --> 0:01:13.560 at church, and all of a sudden I was overcome 0:01:14.120 --> 0:01:16.720 by a power bigger than me. Again, we had been 0:01:16.720 --> 0:01:19.000 dealing with us for a number of years, and you know, 0:01:19.040 --> 0:01:21.319 what happens in the office impacts us in her family 0:01:21.360 --> 0:01:25.360 life as well, and so we were there, her family 0:01:25.400 --> 0:01:29.760 was there. It was very emotionally heavy and draining and 0:01:29.840 --> 0:01:33.400 exhausting and long for everybody that took the stand that day. 0:01:33.400 --> 0:01:35.319 There were people on both sides of the aisle that 0:01:35.360 --> 0:01:38.800 had very particular feelings and were very vested in the 0:01:38.800 --> 0:01:42.920 outcome of this case. I just believed that she hadn't 0:01:42.959 --> 0:01:44.759 done this. I believe that there was evidence of prove 0:01:44.800 --> 0:01:47.480 that she hadn't done this. And when the judge came 0:01:47.480 --> 0:01:49.880 on the bench, it was like I was overcome. I 0:01:49.880 --> 0:01:51.800 don't know. I mean, we started crying and we just 0:01:51.920 --> 0:01:55.880 I could not get myself together like I felt. It 0:01:55.920 --> 0:01:58.880 was just it was the highest emotion that and then 0:01:58.880 --> 0:02:00.760 the lowest. You know, you're kind of sponged up and down. 0:02:00.760 --> 0:02:07.080 It was. It was unbelievable. Welcome back to part three 0:02:07.120 --> 0:02:10.320 of our case study series. This is the final episode 0:02:10.360 --> 0:02:13.040 following the case of a woman accused of the murder 0:02:13.040 --> 0:02:16.239 of her husband. In parts one and two, we told 0:02:16.280 --> 0:02:18.919 you what happened to the night her husband died, how 0:02:18.960 --> 0:02:22.360 your regular sworn host Phil designed her defense, and the 0:02:22.440 --> 0:02:25.800 impossible risks and decisions that led her to enter a 0:02:25.840 --> 0:02:30.240 plea for a crime she didn't commit. Today, as Phil's 0:02:30.240 --> 0:02:33.200 wife Natalie mentioned at the beginning of this episode, we'll 0:02:33.200 --> 0:02:36.680 look at the shocking sentencing hearing in this case. After 0:02:36.760 --> 0:02:39.639 hearing from all of the expert testimony, the judge sent 0:02:39.680 --> 0:02:42.800 down a ruling that no one, not even Phil, saw coming. 0:02:44.360 --> 0:02:47.480 The judge didn't waste a lot of time after we 0:02:47.600 --> 0:02:51.520 put up hours and hours of testimony and argument. He 0:02:51.600 --> 0:02:54.440 came back pretty quickly and he may have ruled from 0:02:54.440 --> 0:02:56.760 the bench. I think he said, well, something like I 0:02:56.800 --> 0:02:59.160 think she's innocent, so I'm just gonna give her straight probation. 0:03:00.440 --> 0:03:03.359 I just remember, Holy did I hear him right? Did 0:03:03.360 --> 0:03:05.560 he just say he's gonna give her straight probation because 0:03:05.560 --> 0:03:07.800 he thinks she's innocent, And yeah, that's what he said. 0:03:09.480 --> 0:03:12.320 He decided he was gonna get up give the clerk 0:03:12.400 --> 0:03:15.880 of court some time to get the paperwork together for sentencing. 0:03:15.880 --> 0:03:21.079 And it was quite a moment. Her little girl came 0:03:21.160 --> 0:03:22.840 up to me and give me a hug and said, 0:03:22.840 --> 0:03:27.200 thank you for saving um. And if you think I'm 0:03:27.200 --> 0:03:30.919 emotional now, you should see me that day. It's incredible. 0:03:31.320 --> 0:03:33.560 That sweet girl. I'll never forget her. And I had 0:03:33.560 --> 0:03:35.720 a little girl with my own woman, you just remind 0:03:35.760 --> 0:03:39.600 me so much of my job. But the judge came 0:03:39.640 --> 0:03:43.920 back on the bench and the paperwork done, and and 0:03:44.000 --> 0:03:47.160 that was that, and we were we were just kind 0:03:47.160 --> 0:03:52.840 of all shocked and stunned, but very much happy. After that. 0:03:52.960 --> 0:03:54.680 She was able to start picking the pieces of her 0:03:54.720 --> 0:03:58.120 life back up and become a mom again, being a 0:03:58.960 --> 0:04:05.960 citizen and parents and employee and now I'm just a 0:04:05.960 --> 0:04:10.440 hard working lady. Had you guys expected her to go 0:04:10.480 --> 0:04:16.400 to jail that day, Yes, very much so. I don't 0:04:16.400 --> 0:04:19.240 think I told her then. I may have told her since, 0:04:19.279 --> 0:04:23.359 but I was fully expecting her to leave that courtroom 0:04:23.360 --> 0:04:27.200 in a waist chain, handcuffs and leg irons. I wasn't 0:04:27.240 --> 0:04:30.800 expecting her to walk out the front door. It's on 0:04:30.839 --> 0:04:33.239 a basic level. You know, you plead guilty to manslaughter, 0:04:33.279 --> 0:04:34.840 you're gonna have to go to prison. That's kind of 0:04:34.839 --> 0:04:39.240 the default setting. I tried to find out in Georgia 0:04:39.880 --> 0:04:43.880 if there'd ever been anybody that got probation straight probation 0:04:43.920 --> 0:04:47.599 from manslaughter. I couldn't find any, at least not in 0:04:48.200 --> 0:04:51.760 recent history. My research at the time the average sentence 0:04:51.800 --> 0:04:54.200 was like fourteen or fifteen years from manslaughter. Maybe it 0:04:54.240 --> 0:04:56.520 was eighteen, actually I think it was eighteen at the time. 0:04:57.600 --> 0:05:01.039 The average sentences, you know a lot of years in 0:05:01.040 --> 0:05:05.880 prison for manslaughter, voluntary manslaughter anyway, So straight probation was 0:05:07.560 --> 0:05:09.719 that's what you know. We asked for it. We asked 0:05:09.720 --> 0:05:11.680 her fifteen years. If I'd have thought that Judge was 0:05:11.680 --> 0:05:14.240 gonna believe she was innocent, that we were gonna do 0:05:14.720 --> 0:05:16.839 that good of a job, I would have maybe asked 0:05:16.839 --> 0:05:20.440 for less. But I wrote in my written sentencing memorandum 0:05:20.120 --> 0:05:24.080 my recommendation was fifteen years on probation. I kind of 0:05:24.080 --> 0:05:26.039 pulled that number out of thin air. I I didn't 0:05:26.040 --> 0:05:28.320 want to ask for two little time and be insulting. 0:05:28.360 --> 0:05:30.159 I didn't want to say, Judge, yes, she's pleading to 0:05:30.880 --> 0:05:33.479 voluntary manslaughter. Even though it's an Alfred Police she's pleading 0:05:33.480 --> 0:05:35.240 to voluntary manslaughter. We wants you to give her a 0:05:35.279 --> 0:05:37.279 slap on the risk and give her two years on probation. 0:05:37.279 --> 0:05:39.520 I didn't want that. I wanted to give him something 0:05:39.560 --> 0:05:42.520 that he wasn't gonna laugh about. And he said, well, 0:05:42.560 --> 0:05:44.880 I think she's innocence, I'm gonna give her fifteen years 0:05:44.880 --> 0:05:47.320 on probation. I was like, holy crap, I should have 0:05:47.360 --> 0:05:51.719 asked for five or something like that. Hindsight is always 0:05:51.800 --> 0:05:54.440 And in the end, two or three years out, we 0:05:54.440 --> 0:05:57.440 we did go back and we we asked for early 0:05:57.520 --> 0:06:02.120 termination of probation and the motion is granted. So all's well, 0:06:02.120 --> 0:06:06.159 that ends well, I guess. Unfortunately, she's a convicted felon 0:06:06.600 --> 0:06:08.760 and she has all the baggage that goes along with that, 0:06:09.960 --> 0:06:13.200 but she's not on probation. And as I recall, the 0:06:13.200 --> 0:06:16.520 people at probation, the probation officers and the probation department, 0:06:16.560 --> 0:06:19.039 they couldn't believe it. They're like, no, she's that. She 0:06:19.120 --> 0:06:22.440 can't possibly be here for manslaughter. Nobody's ever here from manslaughter. 0:06:22.480 --> 0:06:25.720 This is probation. We're not the prison. So they they 0:06:25.720 --> 0:06:27.640 were like, there must be a mistake with your paperwork, 0:06:27.680 --> 0:06:32.799 and no, there was no mistake. Her initial probation officer 0:06:32.839 --> 0:06:34.600 I think he's retired now, but he and I talked 0:06:34.600 --> 0:06:37.640 about this case in the weeks for months afterwards and 0:06:37.680 --> 0:06:40.200 even the years afterwards, and they didn't even make her 0:06:40.240 --> 0:06:42.920 really report the probation because they knew she was innocent too. 0:06:43.920 --> 0:06:48.120 They made some discretionary calls that they're entitled to make. 0:06:48.160 --> 0:06:50.320 There they said, well, yeah, she's on probation, but we 0:06:50.480 --> 0:06:53.880 you know, she's paying her monthly supervision fees. We're not 0:06:53.920 --> 0:06:56.480 gonna be going and visiting me her at home. We're 0:06:56.520 --> 0:06:58.039 not gonna make her come in and report to us. 0:06:58.120 --> 0:07:00.240 They have. They essentially had her own non report in 0:07:00.240 --> 0:07:02.720 probation because I think they knew she was innocent too. 0:07:02.800 --> 0:07:05.880 I mean, everybody who looked at this case beyond scratching 0:07:05.880 --> 0:07:07.800 the surface, if they dug down just a little bit, 0:07:07.839 --> 0:07:10.400 they would see there would be no question that she's innocent. 0:07:12.120 --> 0:07:14.440 We just did what we had to do. We just 0:07:14.480 --> 0:07:18.920 stuck it out. This case dragged on for years, and 0:07:19.120 --> 0:07:22.720 it dragged me down. It dragged me down emotionally, it 0:07:22.800 --> 0:07:26.440 dragged me down mentally, physically. I was just tired, you know, 0:07:26.480 --> 0:07:31.320 and but you have to stick it out. We fortunately 0:07:31.320 --> 0:07:34.880 were able to find the right experts, We had some resources. 0:07:34.920 --> 0:07:38.440 I think her her father, God bless him. I think 0:07:38.480 --> 0:07:41.680 he drained his retirement savings. I think he had a 0:07:41.720 --> 0:07:44.600 sport airplane that he liked to fly his retire e 0:07:44.640 --> 0:07:47.760 from f A. He sold his his airplane that was 0:07:47.800 --> 0:07:50.920 his his love, that he was gonna spend his retirement 0:07:51.000 --> 0:07:53.840 years flying planes around and there's a pilot myself. I 0:07:53.880 --> 0:07:56.120 hated to see him have to sell something that he 0:07:56.240 --> 0:07:59.320 thought he was gonna enjoy in retirement. Quite frankly, she 0:07:59.480 --> 0:08:01.280 was the one. It was extraordinary. I don't know how 0:08:01.320 --> 0:08:05.160 she held up her family was extraordinary, and the sacrifices 0:08:05.240 --> 0:08:11.920 they made, it's it's extraordinary what they did. This is 0:08:11.960 --> 0:08:15.680 Phil's former paralegal, Caitlin. She sat with Natalie at the 0:08:15.720 --> 0:08:18.760 sentencing hearing and couldn't believe this case she had worked 0:08:18.800 --> 0:08:21.280 on for years was going to end with the client 0:08:21.520 --> 0:08:27.840 walking out the front doors. We were still really gambling 0:08:27.880 --> 0:08:30.880 with the sentence because it was a wide range. It 0:08:30.920 --> 0:08:33.720 was like no time to fifteen, if I believe correctly. 0:08:34.440 --> 0:08:36.640 I was worried that the judge might meet in the middle. 0:08:38.000 --> 0:08:41.040 I think that that was her best option. And I think, 0:08:41.360 --> 0:08:43.200 you know, after that many years, you're just kind of 0:08:43.200 --> 0:08:45.840 worn down and you want your life back and you 0:08:45.880 --> 0:08:47.640 want it to be over and you want to be 0:08:47.679 --> 0:08:50.720 able to travel to see your family. She was born 0:08:50.800 --> 0:08:52.720 down and I think I would feel the same way, 0:08:52.720 --> 0:08:56.240 and I would have gone through it, and I mean 0:08:56.520 --> 0:08:59.480 I still to this day I haven't worked for Phil 0:08:59.559 --> 0:09:03.200 and probably six or seven years. If he tells me something, 0:09:03.320 --> 0:09:05.439 I go that I believe him. He knows what he's 0:09:05.480 --> 0:09:08.200 talking about. So I think that if he told me 0:09:08.240 --> 0:09:11.959 to do it, I would do it. The sentencing hearing 0:09:12.440 --> 0:09:17.120 was unlike anything I've probably will every experience in my life. 0:09:17.160 --> 0:09:21.640 I remember after it was over telling Phil's wife that 0:09:22.320 --> 0:09:24.760 it was the happiest I've ever been in my life 0:09:24.760 --> 0:09:27.480 and it had absolutely nothing to do with me, and 0:09:27.559 --> 0:09:31.839 that blew my mind. The sentencing hearing was very emotional. 0:09:32.040 --> 0:09:36.760 Her children read victim impact statements, but they would be 0:09:36.760 --> 0:09:39.319 hard to hear from anyone, but much less ten year 0:09:39.360 --> 0:09:44.200 old children. I remember the judge said, do you wished 0:09:44.440 --> 0:09:46.800 that it could have been tried so that he could 0:09:46.800 --> 0:09:51.520 find her not guilty? The entire room was crying at points, 0:09:52.280 --> 0:09:57.480 and when the judge sentenced her to complete probation, I 0:09:57.520 --> 0:10:01.240 mean everyone cheered, everyone cried it. It was a very 0:10:01.280 --> 0:10:04.760 beautiful thing. When the sentencing hearing was over, I don't 0:10:04.760 --> 0:10:08.000 remember exactly what her kids were saying. I just know 0:10:08.120 --> 0:10:11.040 that they were supporting her. I just remember that they 0:10:11.040 --> 0:10:14.760 were all in support of their mom, just crying that 0:10:14.840 --> 0:10:16.719 they need their mom you know, they lost their dad 0:10:16.760 --> 0:10:19.600 and they need their mom. I remember she was just 0:10:19.679 --> 0:10:21.960 so nervous. She asked if I could sit with her 0:10:22.000 --> 0:10:25.199 at the table, But it's not a place for me. 0:10:41.520 --> 0:10:44.600 Here's Phil's client. When I spoke with her about entering 0:10:44.600 --> 0:10:50.360 the Alfred plea, even years later, she was calm and resigned. Honestly, 0:10:50.800 --> 0:10:53.840 I was expecting to hear about how emotional and difficult 0:10:53.880 --> 0:10:56.600 it was to plead to the crime of killing her husband, 0:10:57.040 --> 0:11:00.160 a crime she didn't commit. But sitting with me her 0:11:00.240 --> 0:11:02.920 children in Phil's office when we got to the subject 0:11:02.920 --> 0:11:06.199 of the plea, she wasn't emotional at all. She was 0:11:06.240 --> 0:11:11.760 straightforward and sort of stoic. I actually wrote a letter 0:11:12.000 --> 0:11:15.800 myself to the judge. We weren't able to use it 0:11:17.160 --> 0:11:19.679 because there was some wording about not really wanting to 0:11:19.679 --> 0:11:21.800 take a plea. I think that I was not able 0:11:21.840 --> 0:11:24.160 to use it, but I didn't want to write my 0:11:24.200 --> 0:11:27.280 own letter. The judge asked me if I was sure 0:11:27.360 --> 0:11:32.040 that I really wanted to do it, and I was like, yeah, 0:11:32.559 --> 0:11:34.400 you know, because I mean I felt like there was 0:11:34.440 --> 0:11:37.720 no other way to get home. And then they did 0:11:37.720 --> 0:11:41.480 the sentence saying that he gave me probation the whole 0:11:41.520 --> 0:11:45.800 thing was surprising. So the fact that I got to 0:11:45.840 --> 0:11:48.720 go home and be with my family. How weird is 0:11:48.720 --> 0:11:52.400 that that that would be surprising to me? And surprising 0:11:52.480 --> 0:11:56.080 isn't even the right word, Like if you don't live 0:11:56.120 --> 0:11:59.880 through it, you wouldn't even believe it. I mean I was. 0:12:00.040 --> 0:12:03.880 I was relieved, and I remember that I wanted the 0:12:03.920 --> 0:12:06.520 acal monitor off, but they had to my kids and 0:12:06.559 --> 0:12:09.760 my dad and everyone was at the hotel. I didn't 0:12:09.800 --> 0:12:12.680 have to have the alarm on the incal monitor anymore, 0:12:12.679 --> 0:12:15.560 but it was still physically on me. So we went 0:12:15.600 --> 0:12:19.200 to the hotel and I got to stay with the 0:12:19.320 --> 0:12:22.719 kids and that was nice, and we had dinner. They 0:12:22.800 --> 0:12:25.800 came early in the morning and they took off the 0:12:25.840 --> 0:12:30.079 acle monitor in the foyer drop off of the hotel, 0:12:30.800 --> 0:12:38.200 and uh, we went swimming. I don't harbor any illusions. 0:12:38.200 --> 0:12:40.760 There's a lot of guilty people that you know, we represent, 0:12:42.000 --> 0:12:45.520 but it's the innocent ones. Once we figure out that 0:12:45.520 --> 0:12:48.680 they really are innocent, those are the ones that are challenging. 0:12:49.160 --> 0:12:52.760 I've told people before and I'll say it now. It's 0:12:52.800 --> 0:12:56.360 a hell of a lot easier to represent somebody who's 0:12:56.400 --> 0:12:59.840 guilty than it is to represent someone who's innocent, because 0:12:59.840 --> 0:13:02.480 it's the innocent ones that they keep you awake at night, 0:13:02.679 --> 0:13:05.680 and that's definitely what happened in this case. For years, 0:13:06.440 --> 0:13:09.080 this was a traumatic case on everybody. I'm just thinking 0:13:09.080 --> 0:13:11.640 about it brings back a lot of thoughts and feelings 0:13:11.640 --> 0:13:14.120 that I haven't have felt in a while. You know, 0:13:14.200 --> 0:13:17.080 I live with this for years. And not only do 0:13:17.120 --> 0:13:19.440 I think she's a nice person, I think she wouldn't 0:13:19.480 --> 0:13:24.800 hurt a flee. I was witnessed the tragedy of epic 0:13:24.840 --> 0:13:28.920 proportions for this family, regardless of guilt or innocence. You know, 0:13:29.120 --> 0:13:31.600 a husband and a father was dead, and I'm having 0:13:31.640 --> 0:13:34.240 to sort through autopsy pictures and look at them like 0:13:34.280 --> 0:13:37.960 it's a time magazine, putting emotions to the side to 0:13:38.040 --> 0:13:40.480 try to be objective with it. And now I've got 0:13:40.480 --> 0:13:42.640 the luxury of, you know, looking at it as a human. 0:13:43.600 --> 0:13:46.040 But for years I had to look at it and 0:13:46.200 --> 0:13:50.360 push all these natural emotions to the side. There's just 0:13:50.440 --> 0:13:55.000 so much that I think a person can take when 0:13:55.080 --> 0:14:00.640 you talk about this tragedy, this gore, this human suffering 0:14:00.679 --> 0:14:03.400 and misery, and you just can't. You can't look at 0:14:03.440 --> 0:14:07.040 it objectively forever. It took its toll, and it still 0:14:07.080 --> 0:14:11.959 does in a way. During that time period, I mean, 0:14:12.200 --> 0:14:16.240 lots of things happened. You know, I had small children 0:14:16.280 --> 0:14:18.360 that I was trying to be a father too, i 0:14:18.440 --> 0:14:20.840 was trying to be a spouse. I'm trying to go 0:14:20.880 --> 0:14:23.160 home at the end of the day and not think 0:14:23.200 --> 0:14:26.920 about all this stuff. You know, it's not healthy, it's 0:14:26.960 --> 0:14:30.360 not good to take your work home with you. But 0:14:30.840 --> 0:14:34.760 when somebody's trusting you with their life, and their kids 0:14:34.760 --> 0:14:38.240 are trusting you with their mom's life, it gets to you. 0:14:38.400 --> 0:14:39.960 And it's the kind of stuff that keeps me awake 0:14:40.000 --> 0:14:43.920 at night. Let's say, my you know, I've got somebody who, 0:14:44.040 --> 0:14:46.480 let's just say they're really guilty and maybe the state 0:14:46.600 --> 0:14:50.240 can't prove it. And I know that I'm not trying 0:14:50.240 --> 0:14:53.920 to be obtuse about it. But I don't lose a 0:14:53.960 --> 0:14:57.360 lot of sleep over those types of cases. But it's 0:14:57.400 --> 0:15:00.680 the it's the innocent people that it wrapped up in 0:15:00.680 --> 0:15:03.400 this system that calls me to lose sleep at night. 0:15:03.680 --> 0:15:06.800 The pressure is really on, and frankly, the fact that 0:15:06.880 --> 0:15:09.920 there are innocent ones that need me is troubling enough, 0:15:10.040 --> 0:15:13.560 But when they actually are looking to me to save them, 0:15:13.960 --> 0:15:16.200 and their kids are looking at me to save them, 0:15:16.240 --> 0:15:18.600 and they've got nobody else. It's a lot of pressure 0:15:18.920 --> 0:15:25.200 and it's a pretty lonely place. This case has changed 0:15:25.200 --> 0:15:27.280 the way that I look at the system because it's 0:15:27.640 --> 0:15:31.040 given me some hope that you work hard, you might 0:15:31.080 --> 0:15:34.120 can get to something close to justice. I mean, I've 0:15:34.240 --> 0:15:38.160 won jury trials on murder cases where I thought the 0:15:38.160 --> 0:15:40.680 person was guilty. All these years later, I can look 0:15:40.680 --> 0:15:42.440 back on several things and I can say, well, I've 0:15:42.480 --> 0:15:45.680 lost cases that I should have won. One cases I 0:15:45.680 --> 0:15:48.360 should have lost. The bottom lines, I never know what 0:15:48.400 --> 0:15:50.800 the hell of jury is gonna do. So what this 0:15:50.880 --> 0:15:54.760 has done is is sort of given me some inspiration, 0:15:54.800 --> 0:15:57.160 if you will, to know that there may be other 0:15:57.200 --> 0:16:00.000 ways to get to the same result. We went around 0:16:00.000 --> 0:16:02.120 on a jury because maybe I didn't trust a jury 0:16:02.120 --> 0:16:04.560 in this case. We got a really good result from 0:16:04.560 --> 0:16:06.840 the judge in terms of sentencing, and then we later 0:16:06.920 --> 0:16:11.160 got that probation terminated. If we go back in a 0:16:11.200 --> 0:16:14.080 few more years and maybe apply for a pardon, who 0:16:14.160 --> 0:16:16.440 knows what we're gonna do. But the bottom line is 0:16:16.480 --> 0:16:20.120 that we got ninety five percent of what we needed 0:16:20.240 --> 0:16:24.040 in this case, which was a free client. Free mom, 0:16:24.080 --> 0:16:28.000 a free human being who's innocent. We kept her free. 0:16:28.440 --> 0:16:32.600 That's everything we need. She's not on long term probation. 0:16:32.880 --> 0:16:36.000 That's a bonus. So we got most of what we 0:16:36.080 --> 0:16:40.600 needed through maybe the side door, without having to risk 0:16:41.160 --> 0:16:51.800 the mandatory sentencing of a murder conviction. I went and 0:16:51.840 --> 0:16:54.560 I met with my probation officer like they have like 0:16:54.600 --> 0:16:57.400 a oh what do they call? It was like something 0:16:57.480 --> 0:17:02.560 funny like orientation. And then that's how I found out 0:17:02.560 --> 0:17:05.399 that they had actually changed my probation officer, but they 0:17:05.400 --> 0:17:08.800 didn't tell me. So the first guy was like annoyed 0:17:08.840 --> 0:17:10.919 with me because I kept calling and checking in like 0:17:10.960 --> 0:17:13.639 I was supposed to. And then he told me to 0:17:13.760 --> 0:17:16.719 stop calling him and then if he if he needed me, 0:17:16.800 --> 0:17:21.359 he'd call me. And then they filed the paperwork and 0:17:21.680 --> 0:17:23.960 within a certain amount of time after that, I think 0:17:23.960 --> 0:17:27.600 it was actually April Fools because I remember thinking, please 0:17:27.600 --> 0:17:30.879 don't let this be a joke, and um that I 0:17:30.920 --> 0:17:33.480 was officially on non reporting and then all I had 0:17:33.520 --> 0:17:36.879 to do is pay the I think it was like 0:17:36.960 --> 0:17:43.560 thirty five dollars a month probation fee. Then we had 0:17:43.760 --> 0:17:47.439 we went back towards back to court to have the 0:17:47.600 --> 0:17:51.040 early termination of probation, and it was granted to me. 0:17:51.359 --> 0:17:53.440 I mean, don't think that, like it's so weird to 0:17:53.480 --> 0:17:55.560 say that. I like, don't think I don't know how 0:17:55.640 --> 0:17:58.240 lucky I am, because I do know in light of 0:17:58.240 --> 0:18:02.240 the situation that I'm rigin it. I've read so many 0:18:02.280 --> 0:18:07.200 stories of people so much less fortunate in the outcome 0:18:07.400 --> 0:18:10.280 than my story as far as the legal parts of 0:18:10.320 --> 0:18:14.080 it go. I think I've been incredibly lucky in that department. 0:18:14.840 --> 0:18:17.359 But then at the same time, I never should have 0:18:17.359 --> 0:18:19.080 been in the system in the first place. So then 0:18:19.080 --> 0:18:22.600 there's that's like mixed with it's like gratefulness tinged with 0:18:22.680 --> 0:18:25.280 bitterness and resentment. It shouldn't have been here in the 0:18:25.320 --> 0:18:28.280 first place, but given the fact that it could have 0:18:28.359 --> 0:18:32.320 gone worse, I guess I'm grateful. I think it's a 0:18:32.400 --> 0:18:36.800 really scary system. I think that there are there are 0:18:36.840 --> 0:18:44.320 people in tremendous positions of power making judgments about things 0:18:44.359 --> 0:18:47.000 that I don't know that are always easy easy to 0:18:48.760 --> 0:18:52.639 pass judgment on. In my own house, if I have 0:18:52.760 --> 0:18:55.480 one donut left and I come into my house and 0:18:55.480 --> 0:18:58.200 I'm like, where's my last donut? I have a house 0:18:58.240 --> 0:19:00.359 full of kids that are like wasn't me. I didn't 0:19:00.359 --> 0:19:02.639 eat your donut. I may never find out who ate 0:19:02.680 --> 0:19:05.040 my donut, but I can't just go up and point 0:19:05.040 --> 0:19:06.920 to that one and be like, you ate my donut. 0:19:07.359 --> 0:19:10.080 I know you ate my doughnut. And he might or 0:19:10.160 --> 0:19:11.960 might not have been the one that ate my donut. 0:19:12.520 --> 0:19:14.600 I can't make a decision of who to be mad 0:19:14.640 --> 0:19:18.200 at if I just don't know. You can't do that 0:19:18.320 --> 0:19:21.520 in your own home, so I don't feel like you 0:19:21.560 --> 0:19:25.600 should be able to do that with society. They've got 0:19:25.600 --> 0:19:28.600 to take a step back and like take information and 0:19:28.640 --> 0:19:31.960 look at it and before because they can't undo what 0:19:32.080 --> 0:19:35.560 has happened here, and they can't undo the people that 0:19:35.600 --> 0:19:37.960 you see in the Georgia Innocence Project and stuff like 0:19:38.000 --> 0:19:40.639 that that has spent fifteen years on death row. You 0:19:40.760 --> 0:19:45.560 cannot undo that. And you can't undo on the other 0:19:45.600 --> 0:19:48.480 side of the spectrum, you know, somebody who has suffered 0:19:48.680 --> 0:19:51.160 a loss. I mean, I actually have people that I'm 0:19:51.200 --> 0:19:55.400 close to that are are victims of violent crimes. One 0:19:55.480 --> 0:20:00.879 person in particular, it has never been solved. There's never 0:20:00.920 --> 0:20:04.679 been any kind of closure in that department for that person. 0:20:05.480 --> 0:20:07.320 You know, you think about that like the world is 0:20:07.359 --> 0:20:11.080 it's it's it's just not that black and white. And 0:20:11.119 --> 0:20:14.720 I mean, this could happen to anybody. It really could. 0:20:15.280 --> 0:20:18.480 It's all subject to somebody's, you know, perception of how 0:20:18.520 --> 0:20:22.120 they think things happen. I don't trust my perception all 0:20:22.160 --> 0:20:25.600 the time of knowing what happened. I mean, that's that's 0:20:25.640 --> 0:20:29.280 the biggest thing for me. Stop these things before they happen, 0:20:29.920 --> 0:20:34.760 before families get torn apart. And I go to interviews, 0:20:34.800 --> 0:20:37.440 I go to job interviews, and I have to say, 0:20:37.440 --> 0:20:39.080 you know, I feel like I need to be forthcoming. 0:20:39.119 --> 0:20:41.480 I do have a felony on my record, and people 0:20:41.560 --> 0:20:44.480 are just like, oh really, and then they want to 0:20:44.520 --> 0:20:48.000 hear the story, but they're going to have their own judgments. 0:20:48.840 --> 0:20:51.280 And that's the other thing is I don't want my 0:20:51.400 --> 0:20:55.240 family's tragedy to be fodder for other people's entertainment, you know. 0:20:55.400 --> 0:20:57.119 I mean, that's one of the reasons, one of the 0:20:57.200 --> 0:20:59.400 many reasons I don't really want to use my name 0:21:00.200 --> 0:21:03.840 is because I don't want to exploit, like it was 0:21:04.040 --> 0:21:10.600 very painful for us, incredibly painful for me. On top 0:21:10.640 --> 0:21:14.239 of the pain horrifying. Do you know what it's like 0:21:14.400 --> 0:21:17.960 to see a person sitting at pool of blood. Then 0:21:18.040 --> 0:21:21.520 take that person made the love of your life and 0:21:21.640 --> 0:21:24.760 the father of your children, Like you don't know that. 0:21:25.040 --> 0:21:28.440 I hope to god no one ever knows that that horror. 0:21:30.160 --> 0:21:32.760 I think that's why your brain can't wrap your wrap 0:21:32.800 --> 0:21:36.639 around it is because your brain can't, like there's in 0:21:36.680 --> 0:21:41.119 no way your brain can handle that. But when I 0:21:41.160 --> 0:21:44.400 do got interviews for to find better jobs, which I 0:21:44.400 --> 0:21:47.520 I haven't been able to to do, I always have 0:21:47.600 --> 0:21:51.560 to work that that tier that you know of of 0:21:51.680 --> 0:21:55.639 jobs that doesn't require background checks, And that's that's a 0:21:55.720 --> 0:21:58.560 tough way to make a living. You know, there are 0:21:58.640 --> 0:22:00.679 certain things that are of sins that are off the 0:22:00.680 --> 0:22:03.600 table for you. I wouldn't even want to go back 0:22:03.600 --> 0:22:06.760 to school because what if I went back to school 0:22:06.760 --> 0:22:09.680 and I got a degree in something and they still 0:22:09.680 --> 0:22:13.439 wouldn't hire me. That I'm just in debt. So you 0:22:13.560 --> 0:22:16.000 just kind of keep plugging, plugging away and just trying 0:22:16.040 --> 0:22:19.680 to get these these kids on their feet. I mean, 0:22:19.720 --> 0:22:22.320 I I don't make enough money now, and there was 0:22:22.359 --> 0:22:25.720 so much money spent on the legal expenses. I can't 0:22:25.720 --> 0:22:29.399 send any of my kids to college. Thankfully, they wanted 0:22:29.440 --> 0:22:31.520 to come home to me because you know, they could 0:22:31.560 --> 0:22:35.080 have stayed in kipe Con and you know probably how 0:22:35.119 --> 0:22:44.040 to better financial upbringing that I've been able to offer them. 0:22:44.280 --> 0:22:49.440 It's so glad that's Thurble. Did you think about staying 0:22:49.440 --> 0:22:53.600 in Massachusetts? I mean, of course I loved it, but 0:22:56.040 --> 0:23:02.120 that was the goal. You know, we never really got 0:23:02.200 --> 0:23:06.040 to deal with the loss because we were in survival mode. 0:23:06.560 --> 0:23:09.800 I am frozen in time. I go back and revisit 0:23:09.880 --> 0:23:12.520 things all the time. I was talking about their dad 0:23:12.560 --> 0:23:15.040 in the car and the way here, and I can 0:23:15.240 --> 0:23:17.639